Extraordinary vs. Extra Ordinary

Ben and Amory take a hike with producer Grace, following the digital trail of "Ridiculoubs" — a mysterious climber who traverses the world's peaks in striking footwear. Then, Amory celebrates the beauty of daily life with the Dull Women's Club, a Facebook group with nearly 1.6 million members. Show notes: "Ridiculoubs" Reviews https://www.google.com/maps/contrib/103905053427121194199/reviews/@46.536742,12.2145123,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sCIABIhA1IzmLnBcMrCDRAsAJL9uH!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh3.googleusercontent.com%2Fgrass-cs%2FANxoTn2hbXKGncxVb_xF2BEatInU0nVloX8Ayt_4X6tb2wo-vuWLLiAo1Qu51KnUCkDjnLi7ynf0yeue2WxA3bdQ7Cvw_xSmJ2cUSFcyBVPgbXhXFJjh6gAWxZg58nxAyGxQgLmMf3KXQBpNTOrk%3Dk-no!7i4032!8i2268!4m3!8m2!3m1!1e1?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyNi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D (Google Maps) Ridiculoubs https://www.instagram.com/ridiculoubs/ (Instagram) Dull Women’s Club https://www.facebook.com/groups/dullwomenscluboriginal/ (Facebook) Dull Women’s Club celebrating the ordinary https://www.countyweeklynews.ca/opinion/columnists/dull-womens-club-celebrating-the-ordinary Sponsor message: EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ https://nordvpn.com/ENDLESS Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Support for WBUR comes from the Quiet Tension Podcast. When Joe Missoula got the Celtics job, Steve Paliuka sat up until 1:00 in the morning, typing him 25 things about leadership. Dr. Sharon Turbin asks what came first on the list. Listen closely wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 0:20Speaker 02

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 0:22Speaker 01

  Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 0:27Speaker 03

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 0:33Speaker 03

  Taylor Hansen? Nice.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  Try one.

• 0:37Speaker 03

  Mmm.

• 0:40Speaker 04

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.

• 0:49Speaker 00

  WBUR Podcasts, Boston.

• 1:01Speaker 05

  Producer Grace Tatter, how you doing?

• 1:04Ben Brock Johnson?

  Grace.

• 1:06Speaker 05

  Host Anne Marie Sivertson and Ben Brock Johnson. I'm doing great because I got to follow a tip that one of our listeners gave us. So you might remember this email. It's from a while ago, but it was from a listener named Jordan Sewell. And Jordan had written to tell us about how he and his wife were traveling around Iceland a couple of years ago. Ugh, best place. I know, I'm jealous. Have you been? I have. You must go. You will go. Someday, someday. For now, though, I'm living vicariously through Jordan and his wife, who were doing lots of hiking, too, during their trip a couple of years ago. So every evening, they check Google Maps to plan the next part of their road trip.

• 1:51Speaker 05

  And almost always, a person going by the name of Ridiculous had reviewed the next few hikes on their route.

• 1:59Ben Brock Johnson?

  Huh.

• 2:00Speaker 05

  So I'm going to send you one of Ridiculous's reviews from that trip.

• 2:07Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay, I see a picture of somebody in a dress.

• 2:12Speaker 05

  And they're also in quite remarkable scenery, right? Against a quite staggering backdrop.

• 2:18Ben Brock Johnson?

  And it's they're they're wearing those shoes. What are those shoes? Valentinos? Is that a thing?

• 2:23Speaker 05

  Nice try. You're close, you're close.

• 2:27Ben Brock Johnson?

  There's a real shot in the dark.

• 2:28Speaker 05

  Those are Louboutins.

• 2:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, Louboutins, of course.

• 2:32Speaker 05

  Which is where I think we can assume Ridiculubes gets their screen name from. Ridiculubes, L O U B, yes.

• 2:41Amory Sivertson?

  And can I say, I've seen these shoes before. I've heard of Louboutins. I have seen these shoes before. I have never put the two together. That like, I didn't know what a Loub- Gun to my head, I couldn't have told you what a Louboutin looked like. But it's the it's the black shoe with the bright red heel, like stiletto. The black stiletto with the bright red bottom to the shoe. So for anyone who needed a visual, just because I I didn't know, and now I do.

• 3:12Speaker 05

  And they're very high, very skee- They look like a weapon. The heel looks like a weapon.

• 3:18Amory Sivertson?

  Okay, I haven't seen them that up close, but I believe you.

• 3:22Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, it's like a red mouth with one very long, sharp tooth. If you look at it from the back, yeah.

• 3:27Speaker 05

  Yes, and they also look very hard to walk in. So this review of this person wearing these very high heels in gorgeous, mountainous places. It turns out this is not an anomaly. Because fast forward two years and Jordan and his wife, friend the Dolomites in Italy. And once again, Ridiculubes has been on the trail. And once again, Ridiculubes has been wearing their signature Louboutins.

• 3:56Ben Brock Johnson?

  How is Ridiculubes always just one lube step ahead of them?

• 4:02Speaker 05

  I don't know.

• 4:03Amory Sivertson?

  And how are they walking on this terrain in those shoes?

• 4:06Ben Brock Johnson?

  I know.

• 4:06Amory Sivertson?

  That I could not walk on a flat wooden floor in.

• 4:11Ben Brock Johnson?

  They're crunching, they're crunching around on the snow. They're up. Is it okay that I'm forwarding through these photos?

• 4:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was going to say scroll through the photos, but also like some of the reviews. Yeah.

• 4:23Amory Sivertson?

  So they're, these are like your classic hiking photos where you're on the top of X mountain or you're on the, you know, you're amid the incredible landscape, except this person is doing it in some form of a dress or skirt and these ridiculously high heels.

• 4:39Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, it's very surrealist, I feel like in a way, or like vaguely surrealist. Where it's like, oh, this person is wearing an outfit that does not make sense in this location. But it's very striking.

• 4:53Amory Sivertson?

  So lots of questions here.

• 4:55Speaker 05

  Right. Precarious places, precarious shoes. So like you all, like me, Jordan, our listener, wanted to know why? Why, if you're going to these like beautiful but very rocky, steep places, are you wearing such high heels?

• 5:14Speaker 05

  And, and why, why Google Maps? Why post these pictures on Google Maps reviews? Because you're only going to come across these reviews if you're traveling to these places, right? It's not like they're going to get a lot of attention inherently. So why are they doing this? Are they trying to become a meme? Are they hiding little Easter eggs across Google Maps? Just so fellow hikers like Jordan will stumble across them? And also, how are they doing this? Like, these are serious hikes with like cables and stuff. Have they modified the stilettos with gripper spikes to make them all terrain? Like, how are they getting up there?

• 5:52Ben Brock Johnson?

  That was, that was what I was, that was my big question too, is like, is there a little, is there a little backpack with their other clothes just outside the frame? Cause Lubes looks pretty pristine in these photos. Like, I don't, I'm not seeing the dust of the hike on Lubes' outfits here.

• 6:09Speaker 05

  Well, fortunately, I talked to Ridiculubes and they were down. Ridiculubes was down to reveal all.

• 6:17Ben Brock Johnson?

  Lubes? You talked to Lubes?

• 6:19Speaker 05

  I sure did.

• 6:22Ben Brock Johnson?

  All right, Grace, tell us more.

• 6:23Speaker 05

  Okay, so Ridiculubes signs his emails as Riddy. Lubes is a great nickname, Ben, but Riddy is how he signs his emails, which is a little less of a mouthful than Ridiculubes. Riddy first discovered women's fashion when he was a little kid.

• 6:42Speaker 08

  I'm a guy, but I like dressing up.

• 6:43Speaker 05

  This is an aspect of Riddy's life he doesn't always share with everyone, so that's why we agreed to use his nickname. Around 20 years ago, he started dressing up sometimes when he was out of the house.

• 6:55Speaker 08

  Of course, back then, the social climate was a bit different. But every time I went out, I took some photos as photographic evidence, and that started a trend. And eventually, I built up my confidence, started going out during daytime in different places in public. And yeah, it was a process of getting used to the looks that you might get. And, you know, some of the looks may not be so charitable.

• 7:19Speaker 05

  Riddy developed his confidence and style over time. He started collecting Louboutins. He now owns about 20 pairs. I would say I'm jealous, but I really don't think I could walk in them. So I guess that's fine. At the same time, as he's developing his new sense of style and gaining the confidence to go out and about more dressed up, he's also developing a passion for nature and the outdoors. Riddy can work remotely, so he regularly travels to hike and camp in some of the world's most scenic places.

• 7:49Speaker 08

  I was driving through Austria at one point. So I was thinking around Easter time. And there's still snow on the ground. And I decided, oh, I haven't dressed up while being on snow or on a snowy path. And I did that. And that was one of the earlier explorations, I suppose. It kind of became a thing because I looked at it like, oh, this is actually quite nice. It just worked out because these are things that I love and I can do both at the same time.

• 8:20Speaker 05

  Riddy doesn't have a photography assistant. He uses drones to capture these images. He tries to pick times of day when there aren't other hikers around, so he doesn't disturb them with drone noises. And he does not wear stilettos for the entire hike, usually.

• 8:37Speaker 08

  There are moments where I'm just like, okay, I'm just going to take this video and, yeah, I can massage my feet a little later.

• 8:48Speaker 05

  But wearing stilettos is not without its risks, especially in nature, which Riddy was reminded of one day when he was setting up for a photo in a beautiful but remote location.

• 9:01Speaker 08

  I stepped out into the rock in order to get to the spot where I think, OK, this would look nice.

• 9:10Speaker 08

  As I stepped out, I slipped. I couldn't stop myself. I kept sliding and sliding, and I look ahead, and in about like five feet, there was a drop off. And internally, I'm panicking, but I was still trying to look for a way out. And I kept trying to stop myself with my legs and my hands, and it wasn't working.

• 9:36Speaker 05

  Fortunately, Riddy saw a tree branch.

• 9:39Speaker 08

  I went up and grabbed it. I hung on to it, and it held my weight. And thanks to it, I was able to get out safely.

• 9:51Speaker 08

  Nobody was there. I didn't see anyone.

• 9:54Speaker 05

  He also didn't have any cellphone service.

• 9:57Speaker 08

  So if something has happened, if I broke my leg or hit my head and got unconscious, then I have no recourse except to just drag myself out.

• 10:10Speaker 05

  When Riddy leaves a Google review, it's not just so he can post his pictures. He's also sharing detailed information about these hikes because he actually uses Google reviews. In addition to Google Maps, Riddy posts his pictures on Instagram, also under the name Ridiculous. He hasn't gone viral. He's not really trying to become a meme. He genuinely enjoys dressing up, taking pictures and hiking just for himself. But he was delighted that Jordan had seen his reviews more than once.

• 10:40Speaker 08

  Wow, it feels great to actually have people notice. And the fact that you're...

• 10:48Speaker 08

  Your listener had traveled to the same places I have. I feel like there's a lot of kindred spirits out there.

• 10:54Speaker 05

  So yeah, that's ridiculous. I'm personally manifesting a trail run in between Jordan and Riddy. I think that would be very fun for everyone.

• 11:05Amory Sivertson?

  Oh, man. Maybe, maybe Jordan and his wife can become the like human support team. Like the drone pictures.

• 11:12Ben Brock Johnson?

  Together.

• 11:13Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, you can't argue with some of these drone shots and how high up they are and the perspective that they offer. But I do, for Riddy's safety, want, want him to have some hiking buddies along, along these trips. So as long as we don't hear some horrible news headline about Riddy falling to his death. I, I love the spirit of, of this.

• 11:38Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, respect to Riddy for taking something that he loves and another thing that he loves and putting them together in a way that a lot of people probably wouldn't think about.

• 11:51Speaker 05

  And that also gives other people joy. That always gives, also gives other people something to love. Following his journey, yeah.

• 11:58Ben Brock Johnson?

  I love it.

• 11:59Amory Sivertson?

  Well, thanks, Grace.

• 12:00Speaker 05

  Thank you. Safe trails, happy trails.

• 12:04Ben Brock Johnson?

  Indeed.

• 12:06Amory Sivertson?

  Okay, Ben, so that was nothing short of extraordinary. But when we come back, I'm going to tell you about a different corner of the internet that is utterly ordinary.

• 12:17Ben Brock Johnson?

  Can't wait.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  Support for WBR comes from the Quiet Tension Podcast. There's a part of high performance that drives you, shapes you, and pulls at you too. Rarely spoken, almost never examined. That's the quiet tension. Coming up, psychologist and executive coach Dr. Sharon Turbin with Steve Paliuka on what separates the leaders people follow from the ones they don't. Stay with us for a preview. Listen closely wherever you get your podcasts.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  I hate Mondays.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Uh, Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Taylor Hansen? Nice.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Try one.

• 13:34Speaker 03

  Mmm.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.

• 13:46Speaker 09

  I'm Alison Aubrey, longtime health and science correspondent with NPR. And I've got a new podcast all about the science and wisdom of life after 50. It's called Your Turn with Alison Aubrey. We want to take you on a journey to help you explore all the opportunities to make change and feel good as you step into middle age and beyond from WBUR and NPR.

• 14:10Ben Brock Johnson?

  Your Turn with Alison Aubrey from NPR and WBUR. Supported by AARP. New episodes every Thursday.

• 14:23Amory Sivertson?

  OK, we're back. And Ben, I'm going to send you a few Facebook posts for you to take a look at.

• 14:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, boy.

• 14:31Amory Sivertson?

  Oh, boy. All right.

• 14:33Ben Brock Johnson?

  Headed back to Facebook, the place I try to avoid at all costs and barely know how to log into anymore.

• 14:40Amory Sivertson?

  Fair enough. I log in, so you don't have to. How about that?

• 14:43Ben Brock Johnson?

  Perfect. Perfect.

• 14:44Amory Sivertson?

  OK, why don't we start with this one?

• 14:48Ben Brock Johnson?

  Wait, are these Brussels sprouts the same size as avocados?

• 14:52Amory Sivertson?

  Yes.

• 14:53Ben Brock Johnson?

  What is happening right now?

• 14:55Amory Sivertson?

  Look at these giant Brussels sprouts. Would you look at that?

• 14:59Ben Brock Johnson?

  Or do you mean, or do you mean tiny avocados?

• 15:03Amory Sivertson?

  Ooh, we can't know, can we? We've only got an avocado for scale.

• 15:09Ben Brock Johnson?

  We need a banana for scale. I'm sorry. Send it back.

• 15:12Amory Sivertson?

  OK.

• 15:13Ben Brock Johnson?

  Send it back.

• 15:14Amory Sivertson?

  Hold your horses. We'll get to bananas, bananas for scale. They will come into play here. Here's another post I want you to take a look at.

• 15:21Ben Brock Johnson?

  OK, this one's a little more complex.

• 15:24Amory Sivertson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:25Ben Brock Johnson?

  "This is it. The very last drops of my preferred smell of Blue Dawn. They changed the scent a little over a year ago, and it's just not the same. The old one, this one, was clean and fresh. The new one is perfumed and just not the right one."

• 15:42Amory Sivertson?

  This is relatable, right? When you just, she's talking about Dawn dish liquid and the scent changing. And I feel like we've all had that product in our life where something that you think you can rely on one day.

• 15:57Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, for me, that's just pants generally.

• 16:00Amory Sivertson?

  Pants are so hard.

• 16:01Ben Brock Johnson?

  You get a pant, you get a pair of pants, you're like, damn, these are good pants. And then you go back and they're like, no, it's all bell bottoms now. And you're like, really? This is, we're doing this again? You know what I mean? That's how I feel.

• 16:14Amory Sivertson?

  I'm not, I am not taking a bite of that apple. I'm not on the bell bottom train.

• 16:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  I mean, my legs are my best trait. So like, I, I gotta show off them stems, you know what I mean? And like, if I'm, if I'm gonna, if I'm going back to boxy pants, that doesn't help me.

• 16:32Amory Sivertson?

  Your elaboration on this is really tapping into something that is quite relevant. We are dancing around the topic. But do you have any guess as to what shared space on the internet these posts were made in? They belong to one particular group.

• 16:48Ben Brock Johnson?

  Um, the not interesting subreddit?

• 16:52Amory Sivertson?

  Essentially, yes. These were all made in something called the Dull Women's Club on Facebook.

• 16:58Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, the Dull Women's Club, okay, fair.

• 17:01Amory Sivertson?

  Which is a place on the internet to post about.

• 17:05Speaker 10

  Oldhamy life, so just celebrating the oldhamy rally.

• 17:10Amory Sivertson?

  So this is self-proclaimed dull woman, Sarah Jones Green. And she created the Dull Women's Club group on Facebook. She works as an actor and a singer in London.

• 17:22Speaker 10

  I'm a shoe size eight.

• 17:26Amory Sivertson?

  And Sarah wants you to know that she wears size eight shoes because most posts in this group include the poster's shoe size. And that can be traced back to the Dull Men's Club, which started as a website in the mid 90s, but now also has a Facebook group. So perhaps the shoe size thing is a reference to the male anatomy I suggested to Sarah? Had you thought of this?

• 17:55Speaker 10

  No, I'm, I'm quite, the thing is, I'm quite innocent as well. I don't always get these jokes.

• 18:05Amory Sivertson?

  People also often post a picture of a banana, which, as you said, banana for scale, that's also just become part of the bit now. But the idea for the Dull Women's Club started with the dull man in Sarah's life, or at least a member of the Dull Men's Club, her husband, who was scrolling through that particular Facebook group one night.

• 18:29Speaker 10

  We were on a night out and he was drinking the beer and I was drinking hot chocolate and I said, "I'm a dull woman." And I thought, "Well, I know women can join this page, but women want their own page." So yeah, I set up the Dull Women's Club.

• 18:45Amory Sivertson?

  Sarah's also said that she came across an article about a couple who met as a result of the Dull Men's Club. So that was further motivation to set up a similar page for women. So Ben, you've gotten a sense of the kinds of posts that are made in this Facebook group. But I asked Sarah what being a dull woman means to her. And she said, "It's someone who likes their creature comforts and wants to celebrate the simple joys of life." And in that way, it's kind of the opposite of ridiculubs. You know, it's like the antithesis to the traditional approach to social media, we might say.

• 19:27Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, fair.

• 19:28Amory Sivertson?

  Now, this isn't to say that there aren't some momentous things that happen in the Dull Women's Club Facebook group, like this post that I just sent you, Ben. Take a look at this.

• 19:38Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay, okay. "Just purchased my first home at 60." It's a nice looking house this person bought in what looks like suburban rural New England. A lot of golden leaves, some jack o' lanterns, beautiful house.

• 19:53Amory Sivertson?

  See, what I love about this is like, you know, for some people, they would say, "Whoa, you're just buying your first home at 60?" And it's like, "No, man, she just bought her first home at whatever age." You know, this is the big, this is the big event. This is the big accomplishment. And I, I think we...

• 20:14Amory Sivertson?

  We lie to ourselves so often on social media in, in accepting that what we are seeing is the whole picture. And this is a space where not only can you post the whole picture, but it's so, it's so relatable, right? It's like, what other space on the internet can you post about your favorite dish liquid changing scent and have a bunch of people chime in and go, oh, man, I know. Like, it's such a, I hate when that happens. And we don't have a lot of spaces on the internet where we can just commiserate about that and celebrate those things with strangers.

• 20:53Ben Brock Johnson?

  You know, that is an excellent point. When you're in this world of actually having to click buttons to like things and upload things and comment on things, and there's this real kind of, you know, priority placed on like, just how much people love it and how crazy it is and how it makes you angry or it makes you, blows your mind. You know, like, I do like an area of the internet where you can just be like, yeah, this is just a thing and I like it. And people can be like, that's great. Without having to like, hold you to some like, crazy standard of like, oh, well, your post

• 21:34Ben Brock Johnson?

  isn't a picture of somebody like, chugging an entire jug of oil and then throwing up everywhere. So you know what I mean? Like, I, I do like that, that I, I like this as a concept. I'm warming up, I'm warming up.

• 21:49Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah. And, and these people know that, that these posts are otherwise like dull. You know, I just shared one more with you. The caption is just very dull indeed. My toast was launched so precisely.

• 22:02Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay, this one is my zone.

• 22:03Amory Sivertson?

  Okay.

• 22:04Ben Brock Johnson?

  This is my zone. Cause it's dull, but it's also incredibly unlikely.

• 22:09Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah. So explain this.

• 22:11Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay, it says, "Very dull indeed. My toast was launched so precisely." This is one of those vertical toaster ovens where you pop the toasts. I guess it's a toaster. It's not a toaster oven. And it says, "My toast was launched so precisely from the toaster that it landed just so on its platform." And so like on top of this toaster, there's a bread standing perfectly vertically on end. If that happened to you in real life, it's a little out of this. It's like, it is dull because it's just like your toast. It's just like today's piece of toast, but it is also remarkable.

• 22:46Amory Sivertson?

  Right. Like this is the sort of thing where I would take a picture of it and I'd probably send it to my husband or I'd send it to, you know, my family. I might send it, I might send it to you, you know, and be like, "Look at my, look at my toast." But this is a community of 1.6 million strangers around the world where you can post this and you will find your people who are like, "Man, that toast is amazing. How did that happen?" And you'll feel, and you'll feel validated. And, and Sarah says there are about like 200 posts submitted every day that she and five of her friends comb through as moderators. There will be certain crazes where like everyone will start posting pictures of their tattoos.

• 23:29Amory Sivertson?

  Or one time people were posting a bunch of close up pictures of their eyes, which I'm not into that. I can't do eye stuff. But there are all these spinoff groups. There's like a dull women's vegan group that's been served up to me in the algorithm before. There are fake versions of the group because the real one is so popular that other people are trying to sort of like capitalize off of that momentum. So that's shady. Don't do that. But there is one key rule that Sarah told me about.

• 23:59Speaker 10

  I can't really allow posts of a political or religious nature just because, well, all the unrest in the world, there's going to be a lot of rows and this isn't really the place for rowing.

• 24:11Amory Sivertson?

  This isn't the place for rowing, Ben. No rowing. She's actually had to ban certain, no hullabaloo's. She's had to ban certain, um, the names of certain American politicians, a particular one that you can probably imagine to minimize.

• 24:28Ben Brock Johnson?

  You know what I was gonna say?

• 24:29Amory Sivertson?

  What?

• 24:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  They, they should make merch and it should be Make America Dull Again.

• 24:35Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:37Amory Sivertson?

  Yes, please.

• 24:39Ben Brock Johnson?

  Let's get a Make America Doll hat again. It may be in sad beige.

• 24:43Amory Sivertson?

  In sad beige, that's right, that's right. Yeah, and I, yes, I love that because part of like, part of the essence of dullness is just feeling like comfortable with your dullness. Safe, safe from being judged and feeling judged and from judging others once you see other people's kinds of posts. And this is like, really, a point of pride for Sarah. This is what she hopes she has created.

• 25:14Speaker 10

  Just feeling safe, happy and secure. Like a place online that they can call home, where they can be themselves and just celebrate there every day.

• 25:24Amory Sivertson?

  Ben, did you watch season three of The White Lotus? The one in Thailand?

• 25:29Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, of course.

• 25:30Amory Sivertson?

  So, I have to say, in preparing to talk to you about the Dull Women's Club, I was thinking back to this monologue that Carrie Coons's character has at the end of the series, where she's talking to her friends, one of whom is like a movie or TV star, another one, you know, has, is in, has married some wealthy guy and has beautiful children and has this life that Carrie Coons either wants or thought that she wanted.

• 25:58Speaker 11

  I just feel like, as you get older, you have to justify your life, you know? And your choices. And when I'm with you guys, it's just so like, like transparent what my choices were and my mistakes.

• 26:16Amory Sivertson?

  As I'm thinking about the Dull Women's Club, and I'm thinking about this monologue, I was just tearing up because, you know, she, she says, her character says,

• 26:27Speaker 11

  I don't need religion or God to give my life meaning.

• 26:32Amory Sivertson?

  Because time gives it meaning. And that it's not the fabulous things that you've done or places you've gone, or the extraordinary accomplishments. It's just the fact that you have lived each day and you've gone through the joys of accomplishing small goals and the frustrations of having your dish liquid fragrance change. It's just like, there is value and meaning just in the living and in the passing of time and experiencing what we do just in the everyday, dull as it may be. And so that's what I want to leave people with is just, as one writer put it, talking

• 27:16Amory Sivertson?

  about the Dull Women's Club, like, contentment is seriously underrated. And there's value in that contentment.

• 27:26Ben Brock Johnson?

  I like that. And I would say, like, for me, what this makes me think about is akin to that, which is, you know, at this period of my life, essentially my happiest times, my times of my feeling most content, are things that like are fundamentally dull in some ways. Where like, I, for me, like going on a walk in the woods with my family. And that's, I feel like so much of we experience on the internet is sort of like curated to be the opposite of that, like the most incredible meal.

• 28:06Amory Sivertson?

  A person hiking in Louboutins on the top of a mountain.

• 28:11Ben Brock Johnson?

  Sure.

• 28:12Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah.

• 28:12Ben Brock Johnson?

  Sure. Although, you know, I ain't mad at that either.

• 28:14Amory Sivertson?

  No, no, there's room for both of that.

• 28:17Ben Brock Johnson?

  There's room for both. And I guess like, I do, I think where our lives are the most rewarding are in things that are like the sort of like quiet moments, the things that are less likely to be posted on the internet in some ways. And it's a nice reminder that a lot of what fulfills us exists offline. But also there are online places to celebrate those offline moments as well.

• 28:49Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, it's not one or the other. Like, I want ridiculubes and I want the toast person.

• 28:56Amory Sivertson?

  On my internet. And without both things, the internet does not feel like real life. It feels like only a place for the extraordinary.

• 29:10Amory Sivertson?

  So, thank you for going on this journey with me and

• 29:13Ben Brock Johnson?

  Absolutely. Send us, and listeners, please send us some dull photos.

• 29:17Amory Sivertson?

  Yes. What's your dull thing? What dull thing have you done or relished in lately?

• 29:23Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 29:25Amory Sivertson?

  Tell us.

• 29:25Ben Brock Johnson?

  But always make sure you add a banana for scale.

• 29:28Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah. And choose size if you want.

• 29:32Amory Sivertson?

  Or not if you don't. But don't send me your eyeball. I don't want that. I won't receive it well.

• 29:42Amory Sivertson?

  And we'll be sure to link to both the Dull Women's Club and Ridiculous, because as we've established, we need both on the internet. We'll put that in our show notes.

• 29:53Ben Brock Johnson?

  Endless Thread is a not dull production of WBUR in Boston. This episode was produced by Kalyani Saksana, hosted by me, Ben Brock Johnson.

• 30:02Amory Sivertson?

  And me, Amory Sivertson, and producer Grace Tatter. It was edited by Meg Kramer. Mix and sound design by Marquis Neal.

• 30:09Ben Brock Johnson?

  The rest of our team is Dean Russell, Chiosna Bernadette, Emily Jankowski, our production manager, Paul Vikes, and our managing producer, Sumit Joshi.

• 30:18Amory Sivertson?

  Endless Thread is a show about the blurred lines between your favorite scent of dish soap and the new one that sucks. And why did they change it? It's terrible.

• 30:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  If you have an unsolved mystery, an untold history, or another wild story from the internet that you want us to tell, you can hit us up, [email protected].

• 30:58Speaker 00

  Support for WBUR comes from the Quiet Tension Podcast with Dr. Sharon Churbin, psychologist, executive coach, and a close listener to what lives beneath high performance. Here she is with Steve Paliuka, who built Bain Capital and helped bring a championship back to Boston, on the thing the best leaders do that most don't.

• 31:18Speaker 12

  The best leaders kind of give credit and take blame. When something goes wrong, they're the first ones to take responsibility for it. And they see the good in the other people on the team. They don't immediately try to deflect whatever problem there was, what went wrong. You miss the sales target on the salesperson, they reflect on themselves and what they could do better. Same thing, you know, what Joe Mazzulla does in basketball. If you see his press conferences and the Celtics don't play well, the first thing he says is, you know, "I need to coach better. I made a mistake here. I made a mistake there." Not many coaches do that. But that's why the players, you know, love Joe, and that's why, another reason, he's a great coach. So there are things like that that you learn.

• 32:00Speaker 12

  There are many, many more things like that I learned from people like Red Auerbach and my classmates from business school and sports and all the rest.

• 32:07Speaker 13

  And really, what an array of leaders, because leadership is both the same and different depending on the environment that you're in.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  Listen for more of the Quiet Tension wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:24Speaker 01

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• 32:26Speaker 02

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• 32:28Speaker 01

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• 32:55Speaker 14

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• 33:04Speaker 15

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