Karamo Brown Is Culture

You can’t grow if you don’t confront that which limits you. So face it. Ask for help. Have the hard conversations. Commit to the work. And I promise, your life will change. I’ve seen it come to pass countless times—in myself and many others. But few have more experience with personal transformation than Karamo Brown—a man who overcame tremendous adversity to enliven the best in others. The ‘culture’ expert on Netflix’s massive hit show Queer Eye, Karamo is a father, former social worker, and psychotherapist who was first introduced to audiences on MTV’s The Real World in 2004. He continued to build their trust as a host on Dr. Drew Live, HuffPost Live, and Access Hollywood Live. Karamo’s self-titled primer on emotional healing, Karamo: My Story Of Embracing Purpose, Healing, is an inspiring must-read for anyone grappling with adversity. In addition, he is the founder of 6in10, an organization that provides mental health support and education to the LGBTQ+ community, and the co-founder of Mantl, a skin-care line for bald men. Today he shares his powerful story, dropping pearls of guidance in the process. This is a conversation about culture beyond art museums and the ballet. It’s about how people feel about themselves and others, how they relate to the world around them, and how their shared labels, burdens, and experiences affect their daily lives in ways both subtle and profound. It’s also about the culture of Karamo. Raised in the South by a Jamaican father and Cuban mother in predominantly white neighborhoods, it’s a story of overcoming personal issues of colorism, physical and emotional abuse. Alcohol and drug addiction. And public infamy. But more than anything, this is a conversation about what holds people back. It’s about the importance of exploring our difficulties. And what’s required to transcend our past, move forward, and ultimately live our best lives. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll573 YouTube: bit.ly/karamobrown573 I adore this man and I love this conversation. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  I didn't have the luxury, being Black, gay, immigrant parents, to not try to reach out to those who were different from me. I didn't have that luxury. The only way I've succeeded and found a healthy boundary is by saying, "I gotta meet you where you're at." Because that person was never gonna meet me. And so it's always been my burden, but always has been my greatest triumph, of being able to say, "I know I can meet you where you're at." And I think, you know, like, as a society, we need to get rid of cancel culture and switch it with counsel culture. I think that we have gotten to a place where it's easy to jump on a bad wagon and cancel someone, but then what we forget is that, once you've canceled them, they get further pushed into a group of people who believe and feel the same way they feel.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  It's very rare where someone who's been canceled actually changes, privately or publicly. All they do is they revert back to a group that believes what they believe. And I think that's part of the problem. Giving people opportunities to grow and learn, instead of canceling them, is, I think, so important. But to do that, you have to have a group of people who understand the importance of empathetic listening. Because when you can let someone communicate, when we can communicate together, when you communicate to yourself honestly, the world opens up.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Hey friends, this is Karamo from Netflix's Queer Eye and I'm on the Rich Roll Podcast and I'm very excited about this.

• 2:37Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Welcome to the podcast. Karamo from Queer Eye is indeed here. We made it happen. It is glorious and coming up in a few, but before we dive in.

• 2:58Rich Roll?

  Okay, for the few unfamiliar, Karamo is the culture expert on the hit Netflix show Queer Eye. I fell head over heels for this man, binging all five seasons of Queer Eye with my family during the early months of this pandemic. And what I take away from it is this unbelievable ability that this human being has to help such a wide diversity of people confront and work through their pain and ultimately transform their lives. And I think it's a gift that he has, a profound one at that. Couple of months ago, during an episode of Roll On, I was waxing poetic

• 3:42Rich Roll?

  about Queer Eye, showering Karamo with love. And amazingly, he happened to catch the show. He DM'd me, which blew my mind. And so here we are. Gotta love the universe. So let's do it. This is me and the lovely and gorgeous Karamo Brown.

• 4:01Rich Roll?

  Well, welcome to my home. I'm so delighted to have you here. It's been a little bit in the making to get you here, but I'm so excited. Everybody, I mean, I've been doing this for eight years. I've never seen my family more excited.

• 4:15Rich Roll?

  The whole turnout here to welcome you.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 4:19Rich Roll?

  You asked a minute ago, like, why, I thought we were gonna do that in the black box room where we have been recording. Historically, we've always done the podcast here. We have another room on the other side, but when COVID hit, we moved it out to a neutral space, just for safety reasons. But with you, it's like, I can't record a podcast with Karamo. Like, he has to come to the house. That's the whole thing, right?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  I appreciate it.

• 4:43Rich Roll?

  This is what you do.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Your house is gorgeous.

• 4:44Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  And we find out we're neighbors.

• 4:47Rich Roll?

  We're neighbors. Yeah, I can't believe that. That's a mind blower. And we got the doors open and I've never sat so far away from a podcast desk before. So we've taken, we've undertaken safety protocols to make sure we're safe. I know you've been tested a lot, as have I. So we can kind of breathe, relax, and enjoy each other's company, man.

• 5:07Rich Roll?

  You reached out to me, which blew my mind, because I had mentioned in a podcast with my buddy Adam, that our whole family had been enjoying Queer Eye. And I was late to the party. Like, my relationship with Queer Eye was the original cast and series.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:24Rich Roll?

  So the new one launched in 2018, right?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 5:28Rich Roll?

  It's been five seasons.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  The joke is, whenever there's a Republican in office, Queer Eye needs to come back.

• 5:33Rich Roll?

  So. Ratings go up?

• 5:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 5:38Rich Roll?

  And I had never watched, you know, your version, the new iteration of the show, until the beginning of the pandemic. And we just latched on to it as a family. And it's like the one show that we can all enjoy. Like, you met my whole family, lots of ages and, you know, going on here. And we would just look forward to it every night. We went through all five seasons.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  It was awesome.

• 5:58Rich Roll?

  It was just absolutely delightful. And I was like, I can't believe I didn't know about this show. And I was raving about it on the podcast, and I couldn't believe it when you reached out to me, because... Of course, I'd want to talk to you. You're my guy.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Well, the love is mutual, obviously. Me reaching out to you is because I was like, super fan. You're, I just love the way you have conversations, the way you engage your guests. And, um, you know, I always, even though I'm on this show, I don't have this Hollywood mentality yet. And I hope to never get that Hollywood mentality. So I'm always like, hey, you're really cool. Do you think I'm cool too? I feel like, I feel like a seventh grader all the time, you know?

• 6:33Rich Roll?

  I do too. It's funny.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 6:35Rich Roll?

  And I'll never forget, Jaya, our youngest who you met, who's a huge fan of you and the show. I was like, Jaya Karamo DM'd me. He wants to come on the show. And she just looked at me confused. She's like, what could he possibly want to talk to you about?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Jaya, your dad is cool. Your dad is really cool.

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You're doing me a solid in the eyes of my daughter and my being here.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Awesome. Is Jaya the one that helped direct me?

• 7:00Rich Roll?

  Uh, no, that was Mathis. Jaya was the one with the reddish.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, she's 13.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 7:07Rich Roll?

  Anyway, happy to be here today with you.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  Same.

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  And, you know, I want to kind of unpack the show and your personal story. But in thinking about how to approach this with you, you know, I was thinking about like, what makes Queer Eye so magical? And I think what it is, in my mind at least, and I'm interested in what you think. To me, it's like this antidote to our, you know, very kind of acrimonious, divided culture at the moment, because it's so infused with hope and love and compassion and understanding. It's devoid of all the judgment that seems to be the touchdown of all other forms of media that are popular or that we're consuming right now.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:51Rich Roll?

  And I can only presume that that was very intentional from the get go.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. We, um, I. Have told this once before that I, one of the reasons I believe that the five of us got the job is because when they got down to the final casting where they brought like sixty to seventy guys in to like do chemistry tests to see which five, so people in different categories and they just start putting you together. One of the things where within the first hour, myself, Bobby and Tan connected, then it was Anthony within an hour and a half and then Jonathan within two hours, was because they would take you in this room and they would ask you questions and people would come out and say, what did they ask you? And we were the only five that were willing to tell what was being asked in the room.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Other people were, you know, were like, I'm not telling you, you're my competition. But we just didn't feel like, we, we were thinking to ourselves, well, I was personally and now talking to the guys, and I still get these little goosebumps, we were thinking, well, if this show is to, to make people better, the best people should get it, but you should be wanting to make people better. And if you can't do it in a casting, then how are you authentically gonna do it out here? Because, you know, like every round, someone would get cut and you never know who's gonna be. So if I'm getting cut and I could have maybe helped you a little bit along your way, then, you know, why not? And the casting director said it was so apparent, because they were listening in on everything, that we would come out and we would be like, yeah, here's what happened, oh, here's some advice for you, here's how you could do it.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  And I think that was part of, on top of the chemistry, on top of all of us being great at what we do, I think it was them seeing like, these people actually are living this idea of not dividing, not judging, not hurting others, like they really just wanna help because they're doing it in the casting.

• 9:44Rich Roll?

  The universe is abundant, as opposed to a zero-sum game situation.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 9:50Rich Roll?

  And the, the casting was like a year and a half for this show, right? Some crazy, long period of time, like seeing thousands of dudes.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, for some, mine was, my, my casting was only two weeks. So I had actually. Jonathan had been in for a year and a half. I think Tan had been in for a year and a half. I came in two weeks before they were doing that chemistry test. I found about, found out about the show through watching, Watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen. Carson Cressley, who's in the original cast, was on. And he was saying they were rebooting the show. And I called my agent. And my agent got on this, told me, "No, you already have a job," because I was filming a show for MTV. Said, "We're not going to put you up for it." And I got off that phone. I was like, "I'm not accepting this. No. This is not a no that I'm okay with."

• 10:37Speaker 01

  And I called him back and kept saying, "We need to keep working. We need to figure this out." And not in a, you know, an egotistical or mean way. It was just like, sometimes you have to follow and trust your instincts.

• 10:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  And I think that the universe will, or people in your circles, will sometimes make you doubt what you know to be true. And I knew that, whether I got the show or not, I needed to be exposed to this opportunity and to these people. And I kept saying, "You got to. You got to," for a week. And finally, my agent found someone who he knew in casting from a long time ago. And they were like, "We'll give him 10 minutes on, this is before Zoom. I almost said Zoom, Skype."

• 11:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  And we're like, "We can Skype him and see if he's even worthy to come to the chemistry test."

• 11:21Rich Roll?

  Wow. And it, because it had already been going on for so long.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Already been going on.

• 11:25Rich Roll?

  Late into the game.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they said, after the 10 minutes, they were like, "We'll bring you in."

• 11:30Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  And I asked, "Why was it?" And they were like, "Well, you were the first person who talked about the culture category from a mental health standpoint. Everyone else was artists, you know, musicians, you know, playwrights. You were the first one that said, 'Mental health need to be the component of the show that was missing.'"

• 11:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  And they were like, "We were interested and curious of what you want to do with it." And Obviously, it worked.

• 11:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  It worked.

• 11:57Rich Roll?

  That term "culture," though, is a legacy of the original show. And I think I said in the other podcast, I was like, "I'm confused." Like, because it's not like what you do is so much broader. Culture just seems a misnomer to characterize your function and, you know, on the program.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you. And it was a struggle for me, season one, because people, especially season one, people would be like, "We don't know what he does." Because the show's being established. So it was like, he's having long conversations. What is his thing? Especially when you have people who do physical attributes. Like, you see a home. You see someone's hair. You see what's on their plate. You see their fashion. You know, having a long conversation, people were like, "I don't get it," you know? And when you don't have a title that clearly helps people understand that he's working on the mental and emotional state, it was hard. But I had to release my ego and say, you know, if people don't get what I'm doing, as long as the person we're helping, that's all that matters. And people finally figured it out. They're like, "Oh, he's the guy." And I think it's because of the crying.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Like, every time I had to get on a screen, the person would start crying. They're like, "Okay, we can, oh, we understand what's going on here." Yeah, and so...

• 13:04Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm crying. My family's crying. We're all crying. You know, it's like, "Oh, my God. Who knew this was going to be such an emotional journey? Week in, week out." Like, you just crush it. Like, there's no, like, missteps. Was there ever an episode where you spent a week with somebody and you're like, "This isn't working"?

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, twice. I always joke to people, if you go back and watch the episodes, if Jonathan doesn't twirl out the room, you can tell. Because he's probably the one that's going to always share through his body language what we're all feeling collectively. If he doesn't twirl out of a room, it most likely means that we were just ready to go.

• 13:42Rich Roll?

  So you've been like, two days in and just pull up the stakes and like, "We're done with this? It's not happening?"

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's two people, for sure, that I know. And it pisses me off, if I can be very honest with you. Like, when I think back about those people. So I keep up with all of the individuals we've ever helped, especially with my role of...

• 13:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was a big question that I had.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's important. You can't, I don't think it's healthy to open people up and not give them an opportunity to still do, to speak to you, to talk about whatever you talk to them about. Give them that sort of aftercare. And the show does provide aftercare as well. So it's not all on me.

• 14:14Rich Roll?

  That's good to know.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we make sure that they're good. But there are some individuals that... The two that I'm thinking of that made me so mad because we have so many people who apply and who would love this opportunity. And when you get someone who slipped through the cracks somehow and then comes here and doesn't take full advantage of five experts in their field, take advantage of a crew of 70 people, take advantage of all this exposure that you could get afterwards. And they're just like, eh, I don't, you know, it just, it just upsets me. And like, you know, it's a few things really, really upset me, but that's one of the ones.

• 14:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, they're, they're, I mean, they're not ready. They're afraid. I mean, that's a fear response, isn't it?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Oh, completely a fear response, but you know what the show is.

• 14:59Rich Roll?

  Right. Who doesn't want Bobby to come in and like completely redo their house like by snapping his fingers?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing. And what we realized and they've, our casting department is great. They've started to get savvy on that. Is it just because they want the free house makeover? And I think that's the key where these two individuals were like, yeah, come and do my house. And they played the game with the other categories. But, you know, now we're, that's like the last thing, you know, that they find out that they might get.

• 15:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, all of you guys could be experts in your respective fields. But the chemistry that you guys have together is clearly the gold. I mean, it's unbelievable the way that you guys gel together.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:42Rich Roll?

  So taking it back to that casting experience, was the casting director like, okay, you go in and you do your audition and then you come out and then they're watching like how everybody's interacting with each other? Cause that's key. Like if you don't have that, the show's not gonna work.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were, they were watching both inside the room and outside the room to see. And like I said, it took us an hour and a half on the first day for the five of us to come together. And the ironic part is the five of us didn't know if we were competing against each other, if we were in the same category or not. So we were hanging and didn't know because it wasn't until the second day that they gave everyone stickers that said like your culture, your food. So I didn't know what category anyone could be in and they didn't know what category I was in. And I think that helped that we organically found each other. We were, we. Awesomely, we're not in the same category. And we were also diverse. And it was like, sort of like, I think things just work out the way that they need to because, you know, and then once we got into the room,

• 16:41Speaker 01

  they would bring other people in and you would, you know, eventually it just was the five of us in there.

• 16:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  And then they had this other, um, another five-five squad, who was, I guess, their other choice, which were all phenomenal people. But I still remember on that last night, I was like, they were like, well, we'll tell which one of you groups are gonna make it. I looked at the other group and I was like, you are great, but I'm sorry, you're not getting this. I was like, I was like, sorry, you're not getting this.

• 17:08Rich Roll?

  It's us all the way.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:10Rich Roll?

  Poor guy.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  I still keep up with them. They're all good now.

• 17:13Rich Roll?

  It's gotta be a little disorienting with the success of the show, though. I mean, you guys just got Emmy nomination, you know, it's like a cultural phenomenon.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's humbling.

• 17:23Rich Roll?

  You've been on TV for a while, doing all kinds of different stuff, but nothing at this scale.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  No, no, no, yeah, when I, after college, I did the Real World and then, um, stopped doing anything because I, you know, went on my journey of sobriety and, and take care of my kids. And then came back out here to establish a real career in television. So for four years, I was doing like, digital shows for the Oprah Winfrey Network. I worked at HuffPost Live and things of that nature. And so this was my real first job ever. Even though those were all jobs and it is overwhelming and it's humbling because, again, I, I promise you, if you meet any of us, none of us have gotten that celebrity bug. You know, like you meet people in this town and you're just like, you're like, come on now, like, you're still a human being. I know how you put on your pants. I know how you brush your teeth, like,

• 18:11Speaker 01

  well, let's treat each other as if we're all the same. Just because we have a little bit more money, if you have a little bit more success, we have to remember those things are fleeting. And the five of us remember that. And so, um, luckily, we have each other to ground each other, which is nice.

• 18:26Rich Roll?

  That's beautiful. I mean, that's, that's literally just walking the talk of the show, though. You know what I mean?

• 18:31Speaker 01

  We try.

• 18:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well.

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  You've done the work, you know? I mean, your background is is pretty extraordinary in the obstacles that you've had to face and overcome to get to this place. So let's like, take it back there for a minute.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 18:46Rich Roll?

  Growing up in the South.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Growing up in the South, immigrant parents.

• 18:50Rich Roll?

  Texas and Florida, right?

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Texas and Florida. My parents are Jamaican and Cuban, so, you know, being a little gay black boy to immigrant parents, growing up in Texas and Florida, had its moments. Let's say the, you know, the least, you know? You could feel the, you could feel, you could see the racism, the homophobia, and I was just the direct target. Because one of the things that I always say, my father would always, he had this map, like old school map, like not MapQuest or, you know, Waze, and he would go through it and he would basically redline the school districts and see what apartment complex we could live in so that we could go to the school that was the best funded.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, the way our system is worked out, mostly the best funded schools are in predominantly white neighborhoods. And so I was always that one apartment complex that was right on the outskirts of these one million, two million, three million dollar homes. And then I walk into the school and I'm one of three African Americans, or one of five children of color, one of two kids who had immigrant parents. I was the only one in high school that had, you know, decided to let people into their life about my sexuality. So it caused this extreme conflict consistently. It was like my existence was always in conflict with where I was.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  And as a child, you don't understand why your your life is conflict and why you are the reason for conflict. And as I got older, I started to realize that this was the biggest blessing, all these different identities and managing them, because now I use those conflicts as tools to help other people navigate their own. I use those conflicts to be more empathetic, to like, understand where people are coming from, versus it could have made the opposite of me being like.

• 20:42Rich Roll?

  Victim.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, F the world.

• 20:45Rich Roll?

  Well, your dad's intention feels like it came from a good place. Like, he's trying to find the best school.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 20:50Rich Roll?

  The best school district and all of that.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  It was a great place, yeah.

• 20:52Rich Roll?

  You know, it's like a byproduct of that is everything that you had to, you know, go through and suffer.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, as dads, we, I appreciate it. So, I don't talk about that in a bad thing. The one thing I do talk about, and the reason I bring that story up specifically, is because that's still the problem today. We have an underfunded education system. And it only gets worse as you get into low-income neighborhoods. And I think sometimes we have to really take a look and say, "What is wrong with us as a society when kids are not our priority?" That's the biggest thing for me. Like, when we saw with the gun violence, because you know, that was my high school, Marjorie Stoneman Douglas.

• 21:24Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Where, you know, the high school students were... Yeah, Parkland. I always think, if those kids dying can't get us to get some comprehensive gun legislation, if kids not being able to eat in school and passing out can't get us to start feeding kids, if like, what, who are we as a society? If we won't even take care of our children? Like, and that, that's one of the things that blows my mind. And I'm sure as you, as well as a parent, it's like, there's no way one of your kid's friends would come in here and say, "I'm hungry, or I don't have a book to read." And you'd be like, "Sorry, go home." You would feed them and give them a book. And, you know, it just blows my mind.

• 22:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, was it the, was your high school the same high schools? I mean, Park, was it a different high school?

• 22:07Speaker 01

  No, the same high school. Marjorie Stoneman Douglas, yeah, that was my high school.

• 22:09Rich Roll?

  And you went back and visited, yeah, after this happened?

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did, and I started working with the school. Because a lot of the kids were going through trauma, and so they called on alumni. But the thing for me about that incident, which a lot of people don't know, is that one of the teachers, he was protecting the students, and he got killed, was actually my high school. We went to high school together. We graduated at the same time. And so, when I watched it on the news, not only was I like, feeling this anxiety of being a father with my kids going to school, also watching my, my high school be shot up, and the kids and, you know, seeing their fear and it hitting home there. But then, a day later, to see someone I actually graduated from, and I remember when he sent the Facebook message to say he was going back there to teach. You know, and now, dead.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Like, it made me feel like I was 16 again. Because I'm like, "Ah, too close to home." But, you know.

• 23:03Rich Roll?

  Wow. And with conflicting emotions probably about that time in your life and that experience.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so.

• 23:12Rich Roll?

  When did, you know, the sexual identity aspect of, of, of growing up, you know, come to be a thing? I mean, you can't, you sort of came to terms with that around 16 or so?

• 23:24Speaker 01

  15, yeah. It came across very quickly. I mean, you know, Zack Morris on Saved by the Bell helped that a lot. You know, I kind of figured it out very quickly, like, oh, I like boys.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  And so I think the journey to accepting and love myself was a difficult one because my father was Jamaican, is Jamaican. And the music and the culture previously, they've gotten a lot better, subscribed to a lot of homophobic ways. And so there was a song called Boom Bye Bye by an artist called Boujou Bantin. And the song went like this, boom bye bye in a bati boy, which means homosexuals head. You're not supposed to promote these nasty men, you have to kill them dead. And that song would be playing at family functions consistently. And it had a great beat and people are dancing to it and the whole song is about killing any gay men on sight that are,

• 24:21Speaker 01

  and this was like number one on the radio and number like 10 on the radio here in the States. So I want you to imagine a popular song that's promoting killing gay men. And I'm five, seven, eight, nine, and these songs are playing. And so I, it made me feel fearful for my own life. It made me feel,

• 24:44Speaker 01

  you know, unsure about the love that my parents really have because if you could sing that song unknowing that I was gay, then do you really love me? Once I say this to you, are you going to try to kill me? You know, those are the type of things you play in your head.

• 24:57Rich Roll?

  That's horrible, man.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, but I think about that, you know, we still haven't got to a place with some rap, pop, you know, some rock lyrics, you know, they still promote this and people don't realize that, you know, you saying no homo has a connotation to someone who could be, who identifies as part of the LGBTQ community and who's having self-esteem issues. And every time you say no homo, how does that affect their self-esteem? Because you're saying that if I do something, No homo means it's not, it's bad. So like, I'm not bad. That's bad, I'm not bad. And so I think it's just about being clear about what are you subscribing to? And like really watching your language because the language has power of how it affects people's mood,

• 25:43Speaker 01

  self-esteem, growth, everything.

• 25:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Wow, that's heavy. And you're, are you, where are you at with your dad these days?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Um, we have a, we have a, um, we have a like, you're good, I'm good, like, hey, you know, you stay there. I try, the problem is that even, my father's 70 now. Um, I've, we had many years that we didn't talk at all. But then like as I got older, I did try to reach out and he just could not, he just still to this day cannot reconcile his religion with his relationship with his son. And I think that's a problem. When you can't reconcile your religion with your relationships, then there's an issue there. Because for me, the religion is teaching you to have healthy relationships through love, but somehow, um, the Bible is then teaching, um, a different version of what could be coming out of other people's mouth that it was supposed to be.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  And so he's just never been able to reconcile it. And so I had to come to the place and say, you know what? Since you can't reconcile that decision, I have to make a decision for myself. I have to love me more than I love you. I have to trust me more than I trust you. I have to be there for myself more than you could ever be there for me. And then that was sort of the, the first step in taking away the pressure of feeling like I have to have this relationship with my father just because he has the title father.

• 27:01Rich Roll?

  Right, right, that's the thing. I mean, I, I feel like most people have some version of issues with their parents. And it's the rare case that somebody can really process it and heal from it and get to the other side of it where they're not carrying around this burdensome, you know, resentment and anger and, you know. Constantly looking in the rearview mirror like analyzing what that experience was like. Like that takes a lot of work and most people just compartmentalize it and move on.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Well, one of the things that I I used to tell myself and I try to help, especially when I worked in social services. I would tell kids as sort of a a a something that springboard them to a happier, healthier life is that whatever situation happened, didn't happen to you, it happened for you. And I think that language right there, it didn't happen to me, it happened for me. It's such a beautiful way of helping you to understand that, yes, you had an experience that was traumatic. But what could you learn from this experience? How can you grow? How can you be healthier? How can you be the best version of yourself? How can you start to heal? Because when you say it happened to me, you live in this place of letting the trauma overtake you. It's always like this is, this happened to me. I I wasn't good enough.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  I wasn't strong enough to handle this. What did I do to make this, allow this to happen? Why wasn't I loved enough? You start to do all these whys instead of saying this happened for me so that I could understand that I could be stronger, that I could love myself. And so when I think about the relationship that I have with my father and uncles, who couldn't reconcile their religion with their relationship with me because of my sexuality. I say, you know what? That happened for me so that I could be here today stronger, loving myself more versus it happened to me.

• 28:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's it's easier to be on the other side of it, though, and look at it that way. Like intellectually, yeah, of course. But when you're in it, you're, when you're mired in it, it's very hard to like see your way through and to really grab on to that.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%. That's why I think that they should teach meditation. I think one of the things that I think that they should have not taken out of school was quiet time. I think, you know, they got it right in kindergarten and pre K when you have quiet time. Because what would happen is that it would allow all the kids to settle their their nerves, to take a moment to reflect, to recharge. And I think we get into this as a culture, a society. It's like you have to go, go, go, go, go. And you don't look at social media, everything, and people don't slow down. And I think that if we had an opportunity for people to take a step back, especially in traumatic moments, through and organize, you know, through school where they're like, let's stop so you can process what's going on.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  I think it would allow people to then get to that intellectual place at a younger age versus being older. Because no one allowed me to stop, so I felt like I had to continue to run. I felt like I continue had to fight because of the fact that I was like, if I stop, they win. When actually, if I would have stopped sooner, I would have healed quicker. I would have won. Because I would have had more understanding that this is your shit. This is not my shit. You know what I mean? So, that's, I talk about education a lot in kids.

• 30:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I mean, there's so, there's so many things, you know, we're both parents. I mean, there's so many things that I wish we could change about the educational system. And right now, in the midst of this pandemic, when everyone's at home and on Zoom, I mean, you know, prior to this, the incidence of, of mental health issues among teens was extraordinary. Now it's spiking like crazy. Depression, anxiety, stress, all the like. And there's no kind of institutional programming around well-being in the educational system, whether it's private or public. My great desire, this, you know, and I'll be, you know, projecting my own experience, but, you know, I want my

• 30:45Rich Roll?

  children, my daughters, to emerge from their educations feeling, you know, a sense of empowerment and self-esteem and agency over their lives and a feeling of capability that they can manage the world. Like, all of these life skills, they're so much more important than memorization or, you know, whatever's being tested this week.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 31:07Rich Roll?

  We just completely turn a blind eye to this fundamental aspect of, you know, how to live successfully and be happy and productive and fulfilled.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that's part of the reason why, you know, our, our, you know, as American culture, like, we are not number one anymore. You know what I mean? Because we are missing such a key fundamental piece here of like, people need education, they do need the memorization, they need to go through those things, but that's 25% of what has made me successful in my life. You know, like, the skills I learned in school, obviously, yes, I have them, but it's through the life experiences and it's through, like you just said, having agency over myself and over my emotions and being able to communicate and being able to take care of my mental health and being able to do all these things that schools don't talk about, the life skills, you know?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  It's like the fulfillment you get from balancing a checkbook or knowing your credit's good. Like, no, people just need it, like little things. I think that we've missed the boat on that. And I think that we need to get back to a place where we start to evaluate how are we really grooming the, our generations to succeed.

• 32:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  And right now, I think we're grooming them not in the best way. Like they, luckily, some of our kids have us at home, where we're like, no, we want you to be empowered. We want you to use your voice. We want you to understand how the world really works. But there's other kids who feel like, if I don't get an A here, then I'm not worthy. And that's not, I don't think that's healthy.

• 32:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I don't think so either.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:45Rich Roll?

  As you're talking, I'm thinking about, you know, the many times throughout the show, there's always the, the situation where you go on a walk, or you're driving in a car with, you know, this week's person.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:56Rich Roll?

  And the heart to heart is happy, it's coming, you know, it's coming. And you have this unbelievable facility for not just being able to kind of extract out the most important aspects of what's dysfunctional about this person and how to help them see their way forward, but an extraordinary ability to communicate it in a very clear and digestible way. Like, it's very concise, and it's done with compassion and without judgment. So the person is able to really kind of take it in. And I would imagine for a lot of people who, you know, the millions of people that are tuning into this show, like, most of them maybe are, have never had any experience with therapy or mental

• 33:37Rich Roll?

  health. Like, you're their first introduction to some of these ideas that have been certainly life-changing in your own life and for all the people that you touch.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. And it's pretty amazing to think that I am their first introduction. And I take that responsibility very serious. And also, the rest of the guys, we all take that responsibility, because even though that's my main focus, you know, one of the things I do love about the rest of the cast, especially Jonathan, he and I connect deep on this, is that we both are very much about like, mental health and like, the awareness. And we do understand that there's a lot of people who are in countries, because we're, you know, it's Netflix, so we're global now. Like, you know, I've traveled now, I was, last year, my family, we were blessed enough to go to Bali for two weeks. And- We're in this jungle and this kid and his mom went up and they're like, "Queer eye." And I'm like, "This is a me-" You can't, like, you just can't, you know what I mean?

• 34:32Speaker 01

  And they're just asking for a hug and I'm thinking like, "I'm in the middle of Bali in the jungle and this, this kid knows me because of this show. And what he knows about me is that you're supposed to check in with yourself. And you're supposed to love yourself and you're supposed to..." And I was like, that just blew my mind. But, um, so I take the responsibility. It is, you know, very, it's very important to me. I love it, um, because I, hopefully, we're giving people, and hopefully, I'm giving people ways of really checking in with themselves that are not so much over their head. I think a lot of times, this concept can go over people's heads. So I always try to like, break it down. Not because I think people need things to be dumbed down to them, but sometimes in our busy lives, you just need something that you're like, "Oh, I can grab this."

• 35:13Rich Roll?

  There's the one thing that I can do.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can do this, you know, like, not something that's so, so big that you're like, "I can't, it's gonna consume me." Just, "Here, just do this one thing. Just, here you go, let's start with this."

• 35:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, as they say, uh, in the secret halls of recovery, you can't transmit something you haven't got, right?

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  And that goes back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, is this happening to you or is it happening for you? Like, when you can imbue that idea that it's happening for you and avail yourself of the opportunity to, you know, really like, bear hug it and use it as a modality to heal.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 35:50Rich Roll?

  As opposed to become a victim, you can emerge stronger from that. And, you know, you've only shared a few of the many things that you've had to do. I mean, you had a, like, you found out you had a son when you were in your early twenties.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  My twenties, yeah.

• 36:02Rich Roll?

  Almost your age, you know?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  It is funny. We were in the car literally three days ago and he was like, just sitting there randomly. He was like, "When you're sixty-five, I'll be fifty." And I was like, like, "Yeah." And he was like, "No one's gonna think you're my dad." And I was like, I mean, you know, it happens now. People think we're brothers, you know what I mean? But yeah, my, the one girl that I had a, um, she was my best friend. We lost our virginity to each other. It's, you know, it was the, also the catalyst for me to start letting people into my life in regards to my sexuality. I was, it was like, "Okay, I know this is not for me." Um, and so it was one of those things where I was like, Yeah, I guess this is it. And then she moved away. You know, I'm 40. And so people who are younger might not get this, but if you didn't have someone's address

• 36:50Speaker 01

  or home phone, you weren't.

• 36:52Rich Roll?

  That was it.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  That was it. And so once she moved, it was done. And then years later, there's that stack of papers on my doorstep for back child support.

• 36:58Rich Roll?

  You didn't know that she got pregnant. She moved away.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  She moved away way. Yeah, it was, she got pregnant in, if I do the math back, I guess it was like May, and then we were out of school by June. And so we went on summer break, and then she moved during summer break. So that was, yeah, that was it.

• 37:13Rich Roll?

  So your son was 10 when you were informed, right?

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, 10 years old. And it was like, what in the world? And at this point, I had been going through, I mean, I was, it was like, party, LA Central, you know, I just got off the Real World, I'm done with college. Um, you know, the Real World back then, it was like, if you were on reality television, I don't know if it's same now, but back then, it was like, you would do these club tours, and you would go to tours, and they would pay you $20,000 to party, when I would have partied for free. And so it's like, I'm 23, partying, doing all these things, they're giving you drugs, they're just, you know, taking care of you. And I just got really unhealthy, really depressed. And it was because I didn't really focus on the trauma from my past, you know? I wasn't looking at what was making me feel like this behavior was okay. Why was it okay for me to destroy myself? Why was it okay? Why was I so okay with hurting

• 38:01Speaker 01

  me? Um, and so, as my son, I found the paperwork, it was at the same time when I was finally starting to heal and saying, you know what, enough is enough. I don't want to hurt me anymore. You know, the world does enough of hurting me. I don't want to hurt me anymore. And, um, and so I started to heal, get help for my addictions, and then now it was like this kid. And it was the perfect thing. I tell people all the time, he saved my life. Um, because I don't know what would have happened if I would have found out at 16 that I was a father. I don't know if I'd be sitting here right now. I don't know. And I don't like to speculate, but I do know that at that moment, I needed something ground,

• 38:41Speaker 01

  you know, life-changing to step in and like, really make me commit to who I wanted to be and to stop hurting myself.

• 38:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the universe delivered.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Delivered, right, on my doorstep.

• 38:52Rich Roll?

  Timing was perfect.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, on my doorstep. And so I moved back to Texas to get custody of him. Um, it was, you know, crazy moment. I then got custody of his little brother, same mother, different fathers, because he was having some troubles with the state and. Because of my, you know, work in social services, I was like, I can take him for temporary. And temporary turned into, you know, he's 20 now.

• 39:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  He was eight at the time. And so it, but it helped me to understand like, oh, you can be better now only for yourself, but for them.

• 39:23Rich Roll?

  So you're like 26, 27, and you're like, I'm adopting, I got a son and I'm adopting this other kid. And now I'm a single dad of two.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:33Rich Roll?

  Leaving LA in my fancy TV real world life and moving back to Texas.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  It wasn't that fancy. Wasn't that fancy?

• 39:40Rich Roll?

  Fancy for most people, 20 grand to go party. That sounds like pretty good.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  But then this is the funny part. I would get 20 grand to go party and then maybe three days later, I'd be like, how do, how's my phone bill getting turned off? And I was realizing because you're 23 and you don't know how to manage $20,000. So it was like, hey, everybody get in the, you know, we're all, I'm buying a trip. We're all going. And then, oh, you want those shoes? Sure. Get those shoes. We're all doing it. And then you're like, oh, because you, I didn't know, you know, so.

• 40:06Rich Roll?

  So did you just like get struck sober or did you go to like 12 step or treatment or how did you do that?

• 40:12Speaker 01

  I did not. I, I did it on my own, which I regret. I wish that I would have had someone to guide me, but my family, especially in African American cultures and immigrant cultures, therapy, addiction, recovery is not something that they're educated on. And a lot of times, and I'm not trying to generalize, but from my experience, the community that I was in of African American people or immigrants just did not know about therapy, did not know about rehab, didn't have the money or the resources. And so it was sort of like this thing of like prey on it, you know, like, or just not.

• 40:50Rich Roll?

  But you had, but you studied this stuff in college, right? Like you were a psychotherapist and a social worker. Like you must've had some.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Let me tell you something. This is the thing. It's funny. Chris and I, there's a guy here named Chris that I'm dating and.

• 41:03Rich Roll?

  He might or might not be sitting right behind you.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Right behind me. Yeah.

• 41:06Rich Roll?

  Hi.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  But we were just having this conversation because it's like, sometimes I'm great at helping every other person. But you, you don't understand how fast that training goes out of my mind.

• 41:16Rich Roll?

  There it is.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Comes to me.

• 41:18Rich Roll?

  There is.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  It's like, it just, it just goes. And, and anybody who tells you like, oh no, I've been trained and I know how to just do. This is why doctors don't perform on themselves or why lawyers don't represent themselves in court. Because you sometimes don't advocate for yourself in the way you need to. And when, yes, I had the knowledge and if, I always look back and I'm like, if somebody would have been in front of me, I would have known exactly what to say to them.

• 41:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  But when it's you, I was like, I don't know what to do here. Like, oh, I'm, I'm screwed. And so, it, the knowledge helps to some degree. Once I got to a place where I was kinda better, but for the most part, it didn't help at all. You know, because I was like, I was in such a destructive path, you know what I mean? Like, I just could not get out of my own way. I was, I was so complacent with hurting me, and I don't mean physically hurting me, but I just realized that every choice I made was always going to lead me to, um, something that put me in a situation that I was uncomfortable with. It, it put me in relationships that I shouldn't have been in, both friendships and intimate. Every decision I was making was about hurting me and it was never conscious. It was like, and, and it wasn't until I got a little bit more sober that I was able to evaluate that.

• 42:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  To understand how the drugs and alcohol were triggering that, um, what trauma I was experiencing. You know, it was a lot of that what, why, how that I went through.

• 42:33Rich Roll?

  But at some point, you must have enlisted other people to help guide you through that process. You weren't all doing this in your head, were you?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Um, kinda.

• 42:42Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  I wish that I could, you know, because I have one sister, her name is Camilia. She and I are the closest out of my sisters. She was the only one that was like, come here, but she didn't have the language. So she was, she is a, a doctor of pharmacy. And so she kinda understood the drugs I was taking.

• 42:58Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  And she would be like, she would, she would come to me and these are things that I already kinda knew.

• 43:01Rich Roll?

  What, what, let me think, let me guess, like cocaine for sure.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Loved cocaine. Like, that would be an understatement. I'm not promoting this to anybody watching.

• 43:10Rich Roll?

  Ecstasy, MDMA.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Ecstasy, coke, weed. Um, I never did like any heroin, crack or anything like that. Um. You know, but it was a lot of like pills, ecstasy, anything, and then the liquor. And then some nights it'd be all of them because you know, you'd get to the party at 10 or 11 and someone you'd start off with cocaine and then by one, someone gives you a pill and then by, you know, you're drinking through that and then you have more coke and then you get more pills. And so she was there to say, hey, this is how your body chemistry is reacting to these drugs, which was also kind of nice for me to hear because it was like, okay, now I'm seeing how it's like playing into my depression, my anxiety. And that, that also made me realize like, I don't have to be depressed. I don't have to be anxious.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  I can relieve this substance and then do more work and relieve myself of some of these feelings. And so that was nice. She was the only one.

• 44:02Rich Roll?

  That's a interesting like level of, of self-awareness and maturity for somebody who's kind of doing it internally, right? Like not doing it in a structured modality.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:15Rich Roll?

  But I suppose, you know, God's like, dude, you're like way off the reservation. I'm gonna throw these, these two kids at you.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 44:23Rich Roll?

  And you need to pay attention. Like if this doesn't get your attention, I don't know what to do.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Well, that's what it was. That's why I say the kids sent me alive because I was like, if I can't pay attention to myself, then how am I gonna pay attention to them? And I'm like, you then just pass on these, you know, these trauma bonds and these generational wounds and like, and instead of like saying, hey, before you have a kid, you should, you actually need to get a license to heal yourself a bit. You know what I mean? And we're always a work in progress, but I just think it's interesting that as adults, we end up trying to heal ourselves while we're trying to raise somebody else. And then they're now adults and then now the light bulbs click because we're in our 30s or 40s and we're like, oh crap, I should have said this to you when you were 10.

• 45:02Rich Roll?

  I mean, you know, I've done so much work to grow from the person that I was into the person that I am now, but it is remarkable the extent to which I continue to repeat, you know, these habitual patterns that are reflective of things that my parents did. I mean, I think so many of us, we parent in opposition to the way that we're parented. Like we have some wound and we're like, I'm never gonna be like that with my kid. But we kind of go too far in the other direction. And I found myself nonetheless, despite adopting that mentality, perpetuating something that I didn't like about the way that I was parented because it's so hardwired into me.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  So hardwired.

• 45:41Rich Roll?

  And the only way that I can become, that I'm made aware of it. Is, for example, if Julie reflects it back to me, or I do therapy with a group of guys and I'll share something and they'll be like, "You're doing it again." And I was like, "Really? How am I? I still can't see it."

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:57Rich Roll?

  And so, these kids become your gurus, right? Because they reflect back to you your wounding and your pain and your patterns and what it is that you need to work on.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:08Rich Roll?

  And that seems to be a reservoir that you never get to the bottom of.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. But if you're defensive when they're mirroring it back, then that's where you start to pass on that trauma and those wounds.

• 46:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Because then they start to pick it up. Because once you're defensive, they're like, "Well, okay, Dad doesn't want to hear this. Mom doesn't want to hear this." And then they start to pick up the same behavior unconsciously. You know, I was talking, I read something the other day, which I thought was just really great that I want to share, is how, you know, those of us who were kids and experienced trauma, or were teenagers or young adults and experienced addiction or trauma, you have learned how to turn red flags green. And I thought that was so great. When you're in this space of dealing with your trauma, there's a red flag that pops up when you're dealing with your kids, dealing with life, where you know that something is not right here. But you've turned that red flag into a green flag and given yourself permission to go.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  And I think that if we can start to learn how to stop turning these red flags into green flags and teaching our kids how to stop turning red flags into green flags, it helps them to find the courage and the strength to be able to say, "This behavior is not okay and I'm not going to go along with it. I'm not going to repeat it. I'm not going to do any of the things that I've been taught to do because I can see the red flag." And I think that visual of like, someone taking a red flag, you know, like, "Woo-hoo, don't go here." And being like, "Let me paint this green."

• 47:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  "I'm gonna go now. This is safe." I think it's just such a great visual for us to hold on to as we're told, you know, as someone reflects back to us something that we're doing, where we can say, "Oh, you reflected it back? Great. Let's all remember this is a red flag. None of us turn this green. None of us. You don't do it, you don't do it in a relationship. And if you feel like you're about to, tell everyone in your circle what red flags theirs is." You know, instead of like, being in a relationship and then being like, "Oh, I gotta find out two years later all the red flags," when be a little bit more honest and vulnerable about it.

• 48:08Rich Roll?

  Right. Right. Yeah, I mean, the, you know, early days of any relationship, you know, is basically like a grand play.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Pretend.

• 48:18Rich Roll?

  You know, we're all modeling this person we think that they, we, they want to be with and it takes time before the cracks, you know.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  But could you imagine if we got to a space where we could just give those red flags at the beginning?

• 48:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  And then how you could start to heal yourself and heal your relationship so much quicker.

• 48:35Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Uh, I just think that's just a beautiful, I mean, it's a little lofty and like, probably won't happen, but it's, it's, it's great that I'm trying to, I want to learn how to practice that more.

• 48:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's hard. I'm, I'm such a pathological people pleaser and it's like, I mean, even today, it's like karma's coming over here. Like, I want, like, I want karma to like me. You know what I mean? Like, I am very invested in that.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  So you're a seventh grader too. It's like the same thing. We're both here.

• 48:58Rich Roll?

  And, and I'm like, well, what is that about? Like, is, you know, so for me, it's still this struggle of trying to detach from that aspect of my personality, which I accept, but I'm always, you know, trying to overcome on some level.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:15Rich Roll?

  Which is a close cousin to, you know, um, external validation and the role that that plays. It's like doing a podcast. Lots of people are going to listen to it. I like the fact that, you know what I mean? Like, what aspect of that is fine and what aspect of that becomes unhealthy and moves you further apart from, you know, the truth that you're trying to get at in these conversations.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think for me, anytime I'm in those spaces, I gotta think to myself, um, am I doing this because I know that I'm enough? Or am I doing this because I don't believe I'm enough and so that validation is more important to me?

• 49:49Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  And I think just practicing that, that awareness that I am enough, I am okay, sort of is the fine line for me of like remembering that it's, yes, I might still have some of that people pleasing in me, but the more you can realize that you're enough, so you don't have to please other people. You're enough, so even if the validation comes or it doesn't come, it doesn't matter.

• 50:12Rich Roll?

  Doesn't matter.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Because you're enough. And I think that's the practice. That's the daily reminder for yourself. That's what you have to be, to, to, you know, to, to hug on to and, you know, hook into. Because when you start to believe that, it seems very like woo-hoo, but it's at the truth of the core of like, I don't have to please you because I'm enough. I don't have, you know, like, it's funny that you would say, like, you're thinking, like, am I gonna like you, when I'm the one who hit you up and told you that I loved you, you know what I mean? And it, but it's something that we all play with in our minds, you know, and that, that narrative got put in your mind from someone in your childhood. You know, I don't want to go too deep with you, but someone in your past has said to you and made you feel at some point like you weren't enough.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  And so then you start to feel like, if I make these actions, I do these things, then I'll be worthy. I'm, I'm good enough, I'm here.

• 51:04Rich Roll?

  But then, when you achieve those things, of course, it's not enough, and you have to chase that like a dragon for the rest of your life. I mean, yeah, my upbringing was all, not that, you know, I had a, it's, it's, it's like this weird thing, as I feel guilty talking about this. This is something I explored with Gabor Maté. He's like, your parents did the best they could. It's not about them being good or bad, but I think that there was a conditional aspect to the love in that we love you more when you're, when you're excelling, right? Like, it was a very education and achievement oriented household, and I got validation out of playing that game and succeeding at that game. And that gets cemented into my hardwiring that today, at 54, I'm still playing out that, you know, pattern in a very dysfunctional way.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, what you just said there about the validation in that unhealthy way is, I think, something that most people experience in their homes. And it goes back to that conversation we had earlier about schools and sort of like, what the life skills we're not receiving because you come home, you get an A, everyone's cheering, they put it on the, the fridge, but when you say, I found a passion that makes me happy, that might not tell your parents, you can make money, they don't react the same way, you know? I also think about this, when I was raising my kids, I had this philosophy in my home that if you told me the truth, you would never get in trouble. And I think we do a disservice to children in the way that we're grooming them of when you tell your kids to be honest, but when they're honest, they get punished.

• 52:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Like, what kind of backwards way of training and teaching someone? It's similar to like, you do good, so now you get what you, you're, you're, you're gonna, you feel loved. It's like a backwards way that we really have to look at like the way that we're, we're, what we're teaching unconsciously and consciously to each other. And so for in my house, if my kids got in trouble and they told me the truth, they didn't get punished. They got rewarded with a hug, with love, with more support, with, you know, quality time. Um, because, and now we have a relationship, my kids don't lie to me anymore. Because now they don't fear coming and tell me the truth. And I broke this sort of cycle in my household. And, and not saying there's other cycles that are not still getting perpetuated, but in my household at least,

• 53:15Speaker 01

  where my kids don't feel like they need to lie to get ex, uh, valid, that, that, um, that validation externally. Because they know their truth is good enough. And, you know, it's one of those things where again, if someone had told you that, hey, make an F, it doesn't mean that you're a bad person. I'm still gonna love you, I'm still gonna celebrate you as a human being. What would that have done for you, you know, like as a child? That would have been amazing for you.

• 53:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But bridging that gap, like overcoming that patterning, intellectually versus emotionally is a journey, right? Like you can say, look, if you tell me the truth, I'm not gonna get mad at you. And then you're like, you're mad, but you're trying not to act mad, but you know it's the wrong thing. That's very different from, you know, really coming with a genuine, authentic, you know, sense of compassion into that dynamic.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Oh, completely. Well, that's where, like I said before, the rewarding, understanding what the reward is gonna be, understanding what your intention. So the word reward for me is also synonymous with intention. So my intention here is through my actions to show you that I love you, to give you this reward of like, yes, I feel something inside, but externally, you're going to only be embraced by love. You're only gonna be embraced by positivity. And it does take time, you know, it does take effort.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  And this is where training does help me because as a parent, it helped me to realize like this is not going to be healthy if I do something opposite. But um, it does take time, but everyone can get there. You know, we forget that we, all it takes for you to change your self-esteem or the way that you're living is to practice the same thing daily. You know, that's all you have to do. If you get up in the morning time, you look in the mirror and you, the first thing you do is you downplay yourself and say, oh, look at how I look here. Oh, look at my, look at my hair, it's going down. You're practicing every day knocking your self-esteem down. If you practice in the morning time, coming in and saying to your kids, hey, are you ready for school? You know, or whatever that first statement is, you're practicing like what is most important and what is most valuable to you versus coming in the room. Like I used to do this with my kids as well.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  I would come in the room in the morning time and before I would wake them up and say, we gotta get to work. I would give them a kiss and just be like, did you sleep well? And I would sit with them for like 10, 15 minutes to understand that my value is not how fast you're going to get ready for school. Not saying that's not a value, but that's not the top of my priority list. And I think that we can all learn how to practice what's our intention, what's our values more versus making these knee jerk reactions of I'm busy. What, what happens when you walk in the door? Do you go straight to the TV? Do you go straight to your phone? Or do you take a moment to connect? And if you practice day by day doing that, then things get better.

• 55:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What is the, uh, what's, what's the current blind spot with you? Like what's the thing that trips you up and

• 56:03Speaker 01

  With me?

• 56:03Rich Roll?

  Causes the struggle? Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Ooh, um, I mean, right now it's, I guess a lot of like, um, cause I'm out of one relationship that I was in for 10 years and um,

• 56:12Rich Roll?

  You were engaged for a long time, right?

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were engaged for a year and a half. And so it's a lot of like, understanding like, um, the things that I didn't even know were lurking underneath the surface that I guess I didn't heal from or like were bothering me and like how that can just come out in a second now and like being like, oh, I need to really go back through and like really evaluate what was happening. In this relationship and really being truthful with myself about like things and how they made me feel. And so I think that's the thing that's tripping me up right now.

• 56:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Of like, you know, you think that you have a handle on a relationship, but you realize that every relationship is different. And every relationship needs to be evaluated differently and equally. And I think that's such an important thing because I got out of the relationship thinking I'm fine. Everything's good. We ended on a healthy, in a healthy place. And then I was like, oh no, I'm not fine. I'm not. There's, there was things that were lurking underneath that weren't the big traumatic things, but they were still there. And like, um, finding that balance.

• 57:12Rich Roll?

  And even under the best circumstances, when you've been with somebody for a very long time and then suddenly you're not.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:18Rich Roll?

  If you think you're not, you know, dealing with some kind of, you know, latent emotional issue, you're in complete denial, right?

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Completely. Yeah. Um, you know, and I, I say this, this is not regards to me, but I just want to give your listeners a thing. It's okay to tell people, don't rush my healing. I think sometimes we feel as if like when we're grieving and we're going through something, whether it's like the actual physical death um, of someone, actually the end of a relationship, or even just grieving the financial security thought you were going to have, whatever you're grieving. And especially in this COVID world, I think sometimes, you know, we put a timeline on other people's grief and other people's way of healing. And it's okay to tell people, don't put a timeline on it. Like I, I don't like or appreciate like when I hear friends saying, oh my gosh, you're still not over that guy?

• 58:06Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, just because you've gotten over it, doesn't mean you can't, you can rush my healing. A better response is, what are ways that I can support you? How can I get you the help you can get, you need so that you can feel like you can heal? So that you can go through this grieving process. But I think as a culture, we rush people's grieving too much. And I, I just want to tell people that it's okay to tell someone, you don't rush my, my process of healing.

• 58:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's beautiful. I think that's super important. I think it's equally applicable to, uh, You know, the people in your lives that you create expectations around where they should be with where you're at. Like whether it's your dad, you know, and how he feels about how you're living your life.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 58:47Rich Roll?

  You know, we all hear the story of the newly sober, you know. He's got 30 days and he's angry that no one's embracing him back into their lives.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:55Rich Roll?

  He's torched everyone for years, you know.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:58Rich Roll?

  That's a different kind of healing and you gotta be patient with the people that you love and that are in your circle. But also. Allow them to have their own.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Their own thing.

• 59:05Rich Roll?

  Journey with whatever it is that you're undergoing.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Let them have their journey. I think, you know, that's some of the things like when I tell people, there's two things I want to say of that. Because the first is you gotta let other people have that healing, that journey. And I think it's, that's why I say it's so important for people to know that and to understand it's a dual thing. It's both sides. Because I, I always tell people, when I let people into my life regarding my sexuality, I don't use the term coming out. I think it does, it gives the power to the wrong person.

• 59:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Explain that a little bit.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Well, I, when you say coming out, um, it gives the power to the other person to accept or deny you. And the process that I actually did was let people in. And when you have, you let someone in, you have the power to deny or love yourself, accept or deny yourself. And so it has nothing to do with you. It's about, I'm letting you in and if you don't want to be here with me, then that's fine because I still love me. So if you've done the work on yourself, um, you know, I always think about it as, you know, your body is a temple. So if you're letting someone into your sexuality, into some part of your life, if you open that front door and you say, come on in and they say, I don't want to. If you've done the work on your home, you close that door and you walk in your own home and you feel comfortable and you feel loved.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  And so I think it gives the person back the power and the understanding to, that it's not about them accepting, denying you. It's about you loving yourself more. And also this whole antiquated idea of like coming out the closet. I don't know where the hell this closet is and if there is a closet, I want to find it. There better be a pot of gold in it for all the BS I've been through, that I want to burn down this closet so nobody else has to come out of it. You know, like it's all about letting people in. But, um, when I was letting people in, I would say. I understand that in my mind, I have been dealing with and understanding and loving my sexuality and who I am for five years before I let anyone know. So when I let certain people know, I realized they had to grieve

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  an entire identity that they have constructed in their minds. And I'm not saying that it's my fault, or that, you know, they have any blame, or I have any blame. But you have to understand that if this is what I've known about you, and one day you say, nope, erase that, this is something different. Yes, you want them to get to a point where they can accept you and love you for who you are, but they have to have their time to grieve. And so I think you have to give people their time to heal. So like when I worked in social services and I worked with kids, I would say, understand that it took you five years in your mind and talking to other little friends to get to where you are. It might take your mom, or your sister, or your cousin, five years too. We all would love the beautiful stories that we see on TV where people just are like, I accept you and I love you right here off the spot.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  But most of the time when that happens, it's because that person had some type of inclination, and they were already doing the healing on their own. Or they had a friend in their past that they were healing on their own, and healing their biases and everything else. But you have to take that time to let other people heal as well. And so it's okay for a parent to say, I need a little time to grieve and to heal myself. It doesn't mean I don't love you. I love you. I needed time to process and heal. But secondly, on what you were saying, when you were talking about the sobriety and like the guy who's like 30 day check. I think there's something else that we do, and this is something I say all the time, which is comparison is the thief of joy. When you compare yourself and your experiences to other people, you steal your own joy. And I think as a culture, we do that way too often.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  We look at people on Instagram, and instead of thinking about what we have in our own lives, and how beautiful the small and big things that we have, we end up comparing our bodies, our minds, our inner circles, you know, little trinkets that you have to what other people have. And you have to stop doing that. If you have 30 days, don't compare yourself to what other people are, you know, what they're not doing. They're not accepting you. Again, they're on their healing journey of healing, but just don't compare yourself to anything else. Just know it will happen in your own time. Don't steal your own joy focusing on something else.

• 1:03:05Rich Roll?

  You can also steal that joy by comparing yourself to an idealized version of yourself, or a past version of yourself. So you don't actually even need that other person.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  You don't need it. You can just start looking at your old.

• 1:03:17Rich Roll?

  I do this all in my head.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. That's such a great point, because I have so many. I have a girlfriend who, right now, is on a physical health journey, where her body has changed after children. And she constantly, it's like, "Oh, my old body. I want that body." And I'm like, as just the human biology, none of our bodies will ever be the same as they were from day one. And so you have to be okay and accept that your body where it is now is enough. And if you want to make, if you want to work out to be healthier, but you have to stop comparing yourself to that old body, like you said, because you're now stealing the joy of being like, there's something beautiful about whatever body you're in now. There's something great about it. And find what that is. Again, going back to practicing in the mirror,

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  what is one thing on this new body that you can love about yourself versus comparing yourself to an old body? Stop stealing your own joy by comparing yourself to others or your old version of yourself. I think it's so critical. I'm glad you added that piece.

• 1:04:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and in addition to that, more broadly, like outside of the context of, you know, sharing some aspect of who you are and being attached to how people are going to receive that, the growth is in understanding that how people feel about you on some fundamental level really isn't your business.

• 1:04:33Speaker 01

  At all.

• 1:04:34Rich Roll?

  And even if it was, you're unable to control that.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 1:04:38Rich Roll?

  And the extent to which human beings try to do that, I think, is really the engine of so much unhappiness. Like, we're all trying to control our environments, you know, position ourselves to be received in a certain way. And it's all this delusional attempt to manipulate the world so that it, you know, appears as we would like it to be.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:01Rich Roll?

  And the freedom only comes in the surrender to the idea that that is beyond our ability to control and to make peace with that, to accept the fact that that's them, I'm me, I'm only in charge of myself, how I feel about myself, my actions, my reactions, my thoughts.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. How did you get to that place where you got that freedom?

• 1:05:21Rich Roll?

  I'm still working on it. You know what I mean? I mean, you know, I got sober in 98 and spent a long time in a treatment center and am, you know, very much steeped in the recovery community here in LA. And I do therapy and I have my wife who is, you know, been instrumental in helping guide me through a lot of, you know, these pitfalls.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  She's pretty amazing. We met briefly.

• 1:05:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, identifying my shortcomings and, you know, just being a, I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean that in a way of being able to see what I can't see.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Rich Roll?

  And, and being able to communicate, hey, you might want to look at this, like, you're doing this thing, like, maybe think about that, or is there a better way to do that?

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 1:06:02Rich Roll?

  But, you know, I'm the furthest from perfect. And it's a strange situation, like, in hosting this podcast, and people will say, like, how do you do this? Or how do you do that? I'm like, dude, like, I'm trying to, why do you think I'm doing this? I'm trying to figure this out.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  We're figuring this out together.

• 1:06:17Rich Roll?

  I don't stand on any kind of pedestal in terms of, you know, knowing answers that other people don't. Like, I grapple with this stuff, mentally, every single day.

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I gotta tell you, I'm the same way. I'm the same way. But, you know, like, like I shared with you earlier, when it comes to myself, sometimes I, you know, of course, I'm able to especially identify, you know, someone's trauma or triggers and help them to kind of navigate through that. But, you know, I'm still learning constantly myself. You know, we're all human beings. And I think that freedom of letting go is something that we all strive to. And I feel like I get closer on some days and other days, I'm like, damn, I missed the boat today. Like, I just really missed it. But it's also giving myself, you know, forgiving myself. I'm big on that. Like, I, once a day, will say to myself, I forgive you. I literally would do it in the morning sometimes, or I'll do it in the night. I'll

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  just look at myself in the mirror and I'll be like, I forgive you. And it's my way of saying, like, you know, you're, you're human. You made that mistake today. But what, what are you gonna do tomorrow? How are you gonna make a better choice tomorrow? And I think sometimes people are scared to make the better choice tomorrow because they haven't forgiven themselves for what they did yesterday. And, you know, when you can let go of your ego and say, I forgive myself, now let me go and see if I can, you know, rebuild, rebuild the bridge that I, you know, burnt with someone else by, you know, acknowledging through not being defensive, what I've done. You know, I try to start conversations really, you know, quickly with like, Listen, I know what I did. Let me, let me be very clear, like, we don't have to spend two hours of like pretending,

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  I know what I did and I'm sorry. And I think forgiving myself first of the actions and then saying, will you forgive me? And allowing someone to be on their journey of saying, yes or no, I might need some time, is okay. And I think that's how I get to that freedom as well.

• 1:08:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, by doing your own inventory and then leading with honesty, integrity and vulnerability. Like, when you initiate those challenging conversations from a perspective of, let me just own upfront, like, my side of this, you know, equation that went sideways, you're in a much better situation in terms of being able to navigate to a healthy place.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  And it also takes down the defense. I'm telling anybody who's listening, they should try it. Like, if you're in a situation with somebody, we all know at our core what role we played for the most part in the demise of relationships, intimate or personal or friendships. You know, you know what you did. You kind of, you know, you might not want to acknowledge, you might not want to say it aloud, you might not, but you know. I'm telling you, next time you're in a, in a space with that person, just acknowledge it. Just say it. Like, just go for it. I'm telling you, it's going to create a, a healthier relationship like you can't even imagine. Just being like, it's just, it's, it's just surrendering. It's where like, I get it, I did it, I'm sorry. Like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna defend it right now, I did it. You know, and we can have a conversation later about why I might have done it. But I'm not gonna defend it. I just did it, sorry.

• 1:09:14Rich Roll?

  That's the mistake I think a lot of people make. Like, they'll do that, but then there's always a but, you know, or, or...

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  They'll do the but. Just leave the buts out.

• 1:09:22Rich Roll?

  Get rid of the but, just, yeah, like, let it land without that is always much better. Well, I think, uh, what you, like, your, your, your true gift is that you carry this vibration and you do it, you do it in a masculine body and you enter into these, you know, scenarios with these various individuals on the TV show. You help them, you know, see their way through their own kind of mental and emotional hurdles. But in a broader sense, you're giving men permission to grapple with and confront their emotions in a culture in which, you know, we've come a long way, but let's face it, like, there's still a long way to go in terms of getting the average dude to think about

• 1:10:06Rich Roll?

  things like vulnerability and inventory and, you know, loving oneself and even talking about their fears.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we, you know... I don't know where in our culture we went wrong. I don't know where, I don't know when. But like this idea that men aren't vulnerable, that they don't hurt, that they don't have, you know. Well, actually, I do have an idea of where this shit started. Like, for me, I believe, you know, I believe there is a God, but I think it's narrow-minded to believe that God is a man. When we see everything on this earth, it's created and formed by women.

• 1:10:43Rich Roll?

  The female is the creator.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  I'm like, uh, no, he's, you know, a guy all of a sudden did this. And so, and I revere women because the people who are usually my spiritual guides, my mentors have always been women. So I think that women are the most powerful beings on this faceless earth. And I think that when we sort of put women into a category because we were intimidated or afraid of their awesome power is when men start to feel this sort of like need to say, well, okay, I'm stronger now because I'm limiting you and I'm gonna have this power and say that I, look, look, I'm strong. Look, because of your wholeness, you cry. I don't cry. I've diminished that, you know? And I think we did it to ourselves.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  And then I think through time, it got perpetuated through movies, stereotypes and, you know. And then even some women started to subscribe to it, like, my man is not strong if he shows emotion or something of that nature. But I think what's happening now is we're seeing that shift because of the shift of our culture with mental health. This period of like, we can't keep on going and ignoring this. We saw what happened to our grandparents and our great-grandparents. And we're seeing what happens when generations completely ignore their mental health and only focus on their physical health. And I think men are starting to wake up to like, I have to be better for myself. I have to be better for the women in my lives. I have to be better for my kids. I have to be better. And they wanna be better.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  And that's the thing that I always tell people on Queer Eye. They're like, what's the magic touch? You know, anybody can talk about your trauma. The reason that these men have these emotional moments with me is because I'm giving them permission to know that their masculinity is not invalidated by emotion.

• 1:12:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  And I think it's so important for men just to know that, like. Whatever you've constructed of masculinity in your mind is not going to be broken just because you say to someone, "I'm scared." Because you say to someone like, "I'm confused." It actually makes you stronger, sexier. It makes you all these things that you're actually thinking or not. Like, I've never ran into a woman who was like, "Oh, I'm dating this guy and he was honest with me." And it turned me off. That's not a thing, guys, like, you know what I mean? Or like, "Oh, my gosh, you know, we had a conversation and he let me in. You know, now I'm turned off." That's literally the exact opposite that men should learn. And I think if we could start telling them that, it even just gives them more permission just to be open and honest about who they are and what they're feeling.

• 1:13:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think the real emotional heart of the show is born out of those moments where, you know, you and your colleagues are showing, you know, this person a level of compassion that they've never experienced in their life before. And when you sit down and give them permission to be vulnerable or to ask them questions that nobody has ever asked them before, like, that's where you're like, and you could see the look on their face and the way that their body is configured. It's like, this is new to this person. Like, no one has ever shown that kind of unconditional love and support for this person in their entire life.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's, for me, it's so special because I remember the day I was probably like in, I was probably in ninth grade, the minute that I realized that I needed to start giving compassion to myself and to others in that way. And so it's interesting and amazing that now I have a career where I do it publicly and on television. But there's a story I want to share with you really quickly that I used to play football in high school. And I remember, um, we would play football and while we were practicing, the girls would be doing their, um, running around the track. And I remember, um, I got tackled because I was a wide receiver and my leg was busted up. I mean, like, I was screwed up. And all I remember is my coach screaming at me, "Brown, get up! Brown, run it off! Brown!" And I'm sitting here and I'm crying. He's like, "Brown, suck it up! Go, Brown! Get up!" And I'm like...

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  In pain. And then I remember this girl, and I'm not gonna say her name because I'm still friends with her. But um, she was running a hurdle and she tripped on the hurdle and she had the tiniest scratch on her knee. And that same coach that was just telling me to run off my then, I found out, broken leg was like, ran to her with everyone else and was like, oh my gosh, what is wrong? What is going on? Are you okay? Okay? Are you fine? And that was the day I was like, F this. If you don't want to give me compassion and love, I gotta give it to myself. And then I'm going to then try to give to other people. And literally, I quit football and became a peer counselor. I'm not even joking. That it, his reaction set me on a whole new path of like, I'm now going to be a peer counselor for other kids here.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Also, it got me out of like, you know, second and fifth period because I was able to, you know, so there was another little motivation there. But I was like, if you're gonna tell me that I have to endure pain without any love or support, then I'm gonna make sure that other people you tell that to can leave you and come to me and, you know, get the love and support you're not giving them. And I literally started doing that then. Did it through college and it's, it's, it's where I am now ironically in my career. But I can pinpoint that moment of him screaming at me, Brown, and this girl being on the, you know.

• 1:15:50Rich Roll?

  Right. That's amazing. Wow.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:15:53Rich Roll?

  It's gotta be hard to practice that, like in, you know, quote unquote, all your affairs. Like especially now where culture just feels so fractured, you know? And I'm thinking to, I'm thinking back on the particular episode of you guys with The Cop. Which was, was that in, that was in the South somewhere. I can't.

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were in Atlanta for that. And um, yeah, that was, you know, a big one where.

• 1:16:17Rich Roll?

  We watched that, I think when we watched that episode, it was like right in the vortex of George Floyd. So it was like the timing of, of, you know, watching that show, which was obviously taped much earlier. It was so like.

• 1:16:34Rich Roll?

  Challenging to get on board with the idea that you guys are gonna help this guy after you get pulled over and that little stunt.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a difficult moment because we all felt really triggered, especially myself, Tan and Jonathan, who had experienced police brutality because of, for Tan and I, our race or nationality, and for Jonathan because of the fact that, you know, being non-binary, people would harass him for being a human being who has a beard but also is in a skirt.

• 1:17:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  And we understood like real police brutality. We understood that like there are police that are not here to protect and serve you. There are some that are bad. And, you know, in that moment, it was like, okay, this is hard. But I think one of my greatest gifts, and I was talking about this with Chris, who I mentioned earlier the other day, is I was like, I don't mind going to spaces where people see differently, who feel differently than me, and trying to make a bridge. And so I saw that as an opportunity with this cop of being like, hey, this is a moment for us to see each other. And it doesn't mean that it's gonna change how you police, it doesn't mean it's gonna change how your friends police, but hopefully if I tell you that my son at 16 didn't want

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  to get his license, something that we all want to do, if I tell you this, maybe I can get to your heart, and maybe I can, instead of trying to change your mind, I can change your heart, and then the next kid you see that may look like my son, you'll stop and think, is this Karamo's son, before you make your choice. And it was powerful, you know, even in the episode, you could, he's physically bawling at the end because he's like, our car ride

• 1:18:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  just meant the most to him because he was met with empathy and saying like, hey, we're, at the end of the day, we want the same things, you know, we've just had these experiences that put us on a different path, but if you go back to your heart, you go back to your emotions, you can get back on that path of love and, you know, all those things, and so, you know, it's really nice.

• 1:18:39Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's so powerful, and I look at that as almost like a template or, you know, an instruction manual for how to interface with the world right now. We're on the back end of like this unbelievably divisive election.

• 1:18:54Rich Roll?

  You know, I don't know in my lifetime, a period in which we were so divided.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:00Rich Roll?

  This unbelievable breakdown in our ability to communicate in a healthy way and identify common ground when in truth, we share so much more than that which divides us.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:19:11Rich Roll?

  And I spent a lot of time thinking about, you know, as a public facing person, like, how do I talk about this? How do I interface with people who disagree with me? And I'm very much somebody who doesn't court controversy. I want to build bridges. But I also feel there are moments where it's important to speak your truth, even though you know you're going to get attacked or whatever's going to happen with that. And everything is on such a tight trigger right now. It's like everybody's ready to snap. And I feel like the only way forward for our culture, if we want to have a shot at being, you know, the United States of America, is figuring out how to build those individual bridges in our personal lives. How do we communicate? Like, okay, Thanksgiving just happened.

• 1:19:56Rich Roll?

  We're, we're coming up on, you know, the broader, the bigger holidays. Like, how do you interact with people who see the world differently from you? How can you find that common ground? And how can, you know, we, you know, really embrace the things that, that we share and transcend all of the divisiveness that's really dragging us down and making us anxious and depressed. And it's really, you know, it's deeply concerning to me when I look at what's happening out there.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  Well, the first thing I say to people is that we need to get, as a society, we need to get rid of cancel culture and switch it with counsel culture. I think that we have gotten to a place where, you know, it's easy to jump on a bad wagon and cancel someone. But then what we forget is that once you've canceled them, they get further pushed into a group of people who believe and feel the same way they feel. It's very rare, as we've seen in these past couple of years where cancel culture has been popular, it's very rare where someone who's been canceled actually changes either privately or publicly. All they do is they revert back to a group that believes what they believe. And I think that's part of the problem. Instead of canceling them, we should be giving these people opportunities to sit down and be counseled by someone.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  And I think counsel culture is a very healthier way of saying, your actions were wrong. This is, your actions were wrong because this is how it made this group of people feel. Now, can, let's talk about, why did you feel it was okay to hurt this group of people? Why did you feel it was okay to hurt this person? What in your own past led you to think that this was okay? What part of your power or access makes you think that this is the appropriate way to react? Giving people opportunities to grow and learn instead of canceling them is, I think, so important. But to do that, you have to have a group of people who understand the importance of empathetic listening. So when I go into situations with people who are different than me, the first thing I think about is some of my grandma used to say, my granny used to say, which is,

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  you have two of these, you have one of these, two ears, one mouth. So you're supposed to be doing one double time and one, you know, one a little less. And I think about that all the time. And so when I go into something, instead of me jumping into a conversation and like, just trying to defend my point or like, tell you why you're wrong or whatever, because I now know as an adult, that's gonna only shut them down. I go into it and I say, hey, let's start the premise with, your actions hurt this person, me, someone else. I wanna hear why you made that action. And then I don't go into anything. And this is key, I'm now listening. But within the listening, something else that I think people do is they then start to conjure up ways to defend a point of view that they don't even know yet.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  So you assume the other person is gonna say something, so you already have your, your, your, you know, what you're gonna say back. It happens in couples all the time. I see it all the time. Every time I see a breakdown in a couple, it's because they're already ready, they're defensive. It's like, I know what I'm gonna say to you to get, get you back, to say it back. And you have to release that. So if I'm gonna listen to you, I'm gonna listen to you without having a rebuttal ready. And I think that's so key. So instead of canceling you, I'm gonna counsel you by listening and not having a rebuttal. And I think you have to then also understand if, is this person in a space to actually receive this? Because I think sometimes we get blue in the face. We're trying to talk to people who are just not ready. Right. They're just not ready. And also, they're not ready because they've been triggered by the last 10 peoples who, who tried to talk to them,

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  who didn't do it properly, who all told them they were wrong. And so you have to say, well, am I really in a space to wanna build trust and build, you know, a, a, a bigger connection? Like, in my career so far, I've been canceled probably a lot. But I, I get canceled often because I do believe, yeah.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  I'll give you some examples of recent, you know, I get, I get canceled because people say, "Why would you talk to this person? Why would you interact with this person?" But it goes to what we talked about at the beginning of this, this interview is, I didn't have the luxury being black, gay, immigrant parents to not try to reach out to those who were different from me. I didn't have that luxury. I never had that luxury. The only way I've succeeded and found a healthy boundary is by saying, "I gotta, I gotta meet you where you're at." Because that person was never gonna meet me. And so it's always been my burden, but always has been my greatest triumph of being able to say, "I know I can meet

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  you where you're at." And I think, you know, like, I got canceled last year because I called Sean Spicer, Trump's former press secretary, a nice guy, and then tried to engage with him.

• 1:24:31Rich Roll?

  Oh, right, because you guys did Dancing with the Stars, right?

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  We danced with the Stars together, and he, I don't agree with any of his politics, but I was like, "You know what? If, if there's a way that I can maybe help this man to see how his actions are affecting people I love and affecting my life, maybe he will, his heart will change just enough that when he's around some people who would never be around me, he can like, it will start to come out of him unconsciously where he's, he's starting to talk like Karamo and he doesn't even realize it. Because it's like, I've hit his heart." And people were like, "I can't believe you said he was nice." And I was like, "I didn't say his politics were nice. I said, him as a human being, I could see him as a human. I could see his fears, I could see his pain, I could see the manipulation, I could see

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  everything in him. And I could remove that and say, "Well, now let me try to help you to even be better." I went and visited-

• 1:25:22Rich Roll?

  You have to be able to do that. If the solution is, you just never have anything to do with that person because they don't see the world the way that you do, we're doomed.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  We're doomed. And that's where we are, we are as a culture. We are, and that's why I say, get rid of cancel culture, put it with counsel culture, be more empathetic at listening.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Really be there and not to like have a rebuttal and just really understand if the person is ready. And I think then we'll start to get to a place where more people are open, honest, vulnerable and, and, and finding, you know, common ground because I want to end on this. If the aliens came down tomorrow, not saying I believe in aliens, but if the aliens came down tomorrow, I promise you, none of us are going to be like, you're black, you're white, you're gay, you're straight. We're going to be like, oh shit, it's us against these aliens who are about to eat us all. And so not calling the aliens, you know, like if there are like they're mean, but I'm just saying like, we have to come back to a place like, right now, we've made each other the enemy. And like, at the end of the day, we're all trying to survive on this big planet where things are alive and can kill us all at, at any moment. So let's all just come together and realize that.

• 1:26:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Here's the pessimistic note, though. You would think like, replace aliens with pandemic. Like if a pandemic happened, we would all have to unite and collectively figure out how to solve this problem. And we all know what we're seeing right now, which is an exacerbation of this divide in a way that I don't, I don't know if any of us could have predicted. But I think your point is well taken and it really is.

• 1:26:49Speaker 01

  But even with this pandemic, I'll say this, I think the problem was not just the politi-

• 1:26:52Rich Roll?

  politi-

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Why am I-

• 1:26:54Rich Roll?

  Politi-

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  Politization.

• 1:26:56Rich Roll?

  You're canceled.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Exactly. You're canceled. Um, it's not just because they politicized it, you know, with the mask and everything else. I think it's also because, um, again, when you don't touch someone's emotions, then their mind will never change. And so I, unfortunately, I don't want anyone else to die from this pandemic. So let me be very clear. But I think the fact that the number of deaths weren't affecting so many people's homes, that they really, a lot of people weren't seeing their grandmas pass. People were getting, you know, recovering really quickly. If this pandemic would have really unfortunately taken more lives, and I'm not saying that the lives that were taken were undervalued, but I think then we would have seen the common enemy.

• 1:27:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  And it didn't matter how they tried to politicize it. It would have been like, no, we're all in this. And I think that's where we went wrong when we were fighting people with masks. I, I never tried to have like the mask conversation early on because I was like, I'm not going to get to you. If you've already been told a mask is stupid, your, your, your, your, your mind is set. But- If I can show you how my sister or my cousin or my aunt is sick right now and really get to you one on one, not just on a Facebook feed, just one on one, talk to somebody. That's where it got better. And I spent a lot of time in the early days of pandemic doing Zoom calls with people who did not on my podcast, which I can never use any of it because when my podcast comes back out, like it's gonna be all gone.

• 1:28:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  But it was like.

• 1:28:22Rich Roll?

  Everything changes.

• 1:28:22Speaker 01

  You see differently.

• 1:28:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Can I just talk to you? And through that conversation, I would say about eight out of 10 would change their heart. And I saw it physically on their Instagram where they were all of a sudden be like, damn, I didn't know that this was really affecting someone. So that's, that's to play on your pessimist.

• 1:28:39Rich Roll?

  Well, to be sure, things like podcasts are super important because you've got to be able to create the space and the bandwidth and allow for the nuance and the back and forth. Like this is not happening on Twitter.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Rich Roll?

  And if we want a shot at bridging, you know, this divide, we've got to, you know, divorce ourselves a little bit from those platforms and invest a little bit more in the one on one.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Amen. Invest in the one on one.

• 1:29:08Rich Roll?

  We'll round this out in a minute, but I can't let you go without asking one more thing, which is to.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  No, you don't need to be on Queer Eye, okay? I'm letting you know right now, you do not need to be. You're literally the after photo of what we do on Queer Eye. I'm just gonna let you know that right now. You're not coming on the show.

• 1:29:25Rich Roll?

  Ah, my goal is achieved. Thank you. I'm interested in your thoughts on, on, you know, in your experience of, of, of working with so many people. What are the common things that tend to trip people up and, and kind of show up as blind spots? Like, what, you know, what's the thing that you, when you look around, you see, if that guy just knew this one thing, like he could transform himself or herself?

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  Communication. It's funny, as a species who uses language, whether it's through your voice, through sign language, to interact with others, we are such horrible communicators. We don't communicate to ourselves what we're feeling. We don't communicate to others what we're feeling. Our communication is so broken. We get into conversations and we stop ourselves, like we talked about earlier in the conversation where you just, you, you. You close off your voice, you stopped speaking, you stopped sharing. And I think that's the thing that I would just want most people, every person I come across with. I'm like, well, why didn't you ever tell anybody this was happening? Why didn't you ever admit to yourself that this was going on?

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  Why didn't you ever share? And it's like, I didn't know how to communicate this.

• 1:30:44Rich Roll?

  And asking for help is weakness.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  Asking for help is weakness, but again, asking for help is a form of communication. And so it all kind of for me goes back to communication. And I think if we could really give, you know, not to go back, but if we instead in school taught people who were never going to use, you know, trigonometry ever again in their lives, a class that would teach them how to communicate, you know? I loved English and I loved reading books. It was one of my favorite subjects, but no one in that, you know, class taught me how to truly communicate what's going on. That's not a skill we're really learning. You learn it from the streets, your home. And that's where we get caught up. I see it on Queer All the Time. I literally like, why didn't you communicate this to anybody? Why didn't you communicate this to yourself?

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  Why didn't you ask for help? Why, what was going on? And that fear around communication is the biggest issue that stops us all.

• 1:31:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and then the release that you see when they finally are able to do it. It's like they suddenly lose 20 pounds.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  Completely. So I would encourage people in your friendships, in your relationships, as parents, highlight communication more. Encourage your kids, encourage your friends to talk more. Be patient with them as they're talking, which I think is so important. Like, people don't always, not all of us are orators where can just, you know, share a speech and say something. Sometimes things come out confusing and comes out wrong. You know, this is something I've been dealing with right now with someone of like, being patient with them and understanding like, your intention is not to hurt me. You're just, you're just learning how to communicate in a new way. And I think it's so important because when you can let someone communicate, when we can communicate together, when you communicate to yourself honestly, world open up.

• 1:32:30Rich Roll?

  Boom, that's a beautiful way to end it, my friend. You're a beautiful man, Karamo. You're an inspiration.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  So are you, my friend. I'm so glad to be here. As a fan of your show, I'm so happy to be on.

• 1:32:43Rich Roll?

  The honor is all mine. When it, when does the show resume? Is it, you guys have a production schedule? What's going on?

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  No, they haven't told us. Probably February because we're, you know, our show's all about connection, hugging. The minute that goes out of the show, you know, you miss.

• 1:32:55Rich Roll?

  What are you gonna do?

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't.

• 1:32:56Rich Roll?

  There is no show.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  There is no show. We can't be six feet apart. You know what I mean? So, um, we're, we're trying to figure that out now. And so for me, I don't get political, but I'm very thankful that we have a president now who's going to take the pandemic serious. And I'm also want to highlight the fact, which I think has gotten washed under too much, the fact that we have our first female vice president, who, um, I just am so glad that we now have a woman in that office. And I hope that, and I know that, um, she will not be the last. And I can't wait for the day that both the president, vice president, and speaker of the house are all women. And I promise you, our country's going to be great. We already know what happens when men run it. It's shitty. We've seen it. I'm just being real with you. We've seen it. Wars,

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  everything. We started them. We did all this shit. Famine, all this shit we talking about, we did it. Women didn't do it. We did it. So let's put them in charge. And this is the first step. And I feel very optimistic.

• 1:33:52Rich Roll?

  Man, cool. Um, beautiful. Uh, come back and talk to me again sometime.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Anytime. You tell me. We're neighbors.

• 1:33:58Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:34:02Rich Roll?

  That, my friends, was full stop, full stop amazing. Be sure to check out Karamo's book, Karamo, My Story of Embracing Purpose, Healing, and Hope. Check out his podcast on Luminary and give him a follow at Karamo, of course, on both Twitter and Instagram. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and many other subjects, subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page on my website, ritual.com.

• 1:34:47Rich Roll?

  Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis. Portraits by Ali Rogers. Graphic elements courtesy of Jessica Miranda. And our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis. Appreciate the love and support. Thank you for listening. Peace. Plaid. Amaste.