Pod Insights Stuff You Should Know The Cajun Navy: Heroes or Liability? About this episode The Cajun Navy was formed after Hurricane Katrina and really got its legs after the Louisiana flood of 2016. They save a lot of lives, but some fear the pitfalls of "vigilante heroism." Learn all about this group of do-gooders today.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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1:03 Speaker 03 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.
1:13 Josh Clark? Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too. And we are saving the day here on Stuff You Should Know.
1:21 Speaker 02 That's right.
1:22 Josh Clark? Chuck, I guess I just said that we're here to save the day, and we are. We're going to talk about the Cajun Navy in a second, but before we do, we just got back from tour, and you did something that I didn't do, and I want to hear about it.
1:35 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, we, I got tabbed to perform in the Hangin' with Dr. Z show, which, if you don't know, it is comedian Dana Gould has a professional Dr. Zayas of Planet of the Apes costume.
1:48 Josh Clark? Nice.
1:49 Speaker 02 And he just does a straight-up late-night talk show as Dr. Zayas. That's the only sort of wrinkle to it. And it's a lot of fun, and I was on, I was kind of a straight guy, you know, clearly wasn't the improvising comedian, but I did an okay job. But Dave Foley of the Kids in the Hall was there.
2:08 Josh Clark? Yeah.
2:08 Speaker 02 And Janet Varney, the great Andy Daly. And I just got to tell you quickly about the night before in the hotel.
2:16 Josh Clark? Yeah.
2:17 Speaker 02 I was hanging out in the lobby with a friend of the show, Adam Pranica, a friend in real life, and our good friend and booking agent, Josh Lindgren. Having some drinks and all of a sudden Cole, co-founder of Sketch Fest, walks over with Dave Foley and they all sit down and Dave Foley sits next to me and we have like a 30 minute conversation.
2:36 Josh Clark? That's so cool. And this is the night before, so when you guys were on stage together, you were like old pals?
2:41 Speaker 02 It was a familiarity built in. Dave Foley was the nicest guy you could ever imagine.
2:47 Josh Clark? That's so great.
2:48 Speaker 02 He asked, he clearly had listened to stuff you should know because he said something about, is Josh here? So he knows your name.
2:55 Josh Clark? Pretty cool.
2:56 Speaker 02 And we're sitting there having a conversation and all of a sudden I look up and it's Scott Thompson and Bruce McCullough and Kevin McDonald.
3:06 Josh Clark? Man.
3:07 Speaker 02 And they all see Dave and come over and this is the first time they'd seen each other. I mean, I don't know how long, but you know, they were doing a screening of Brain Candy the next night.
3:17 Josh Clark? Oh, cool.
3:18 Speaker 02 And so they were all just seeing each other for the first time that weekend and they, it warmed your heart so much seeing how much these guys liked each other and how they like seeing each other.
3:26 Josh Clark? Yeah, that, I mean, that makes me really happy to hear that they're as great as, as they seem.
3:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was incredible. They were just, they were hugging and laughing and I'm looking across at Lindgren and, and Adam and we're both have looks on our faces like, what is happening right now? And Bruce McCullough had the, one of the funniest lines I've ever seen. You know how you just bag on friends as a, as a rule? They're all standing around and laughing and Bruce McCullough goes, isn't it great that Mark isn't here?
3:57 Josh Clark? Poor Mark.
3:59 Speaker 02 It was so funny, man. It was like the perfect line at the perfect time and they all busted out laughing and it was, I got to, I got to kind of eavesdrop on their stories and then the next night Scott Thompson telling stories to Dave Foley. I'm just like a fly on the wall trying to be invisible, just trying to soak in these stories about Lorne Michaels in the early days and like trashing hotel rooms and it was, it was just great.
4:20 Josh Clark? That's really cool, man.
4:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, I wish you could have been there. That was the only thing missing was you.
4:24 Josh Clark? I wish I could have too, and thank you for saying that. That's nice. But thanks for telling me all about it and congrats on a great showing at the, what is it? Hanging with Dr. Z?
4:33 Speaker 02 Hanging with Dr. Z. Dana's the best. He's so funny.
4:36 Josh Clark? Is it anywhere like somebody can see it online?
4:38 Speaker 02 I don't know if they, I don't think they shot video for this. I'm curious, but go watch episodes of Hanging with Dr. Z. It's a lot of fun.
4:46 Josh Clark? Okay, cool, cool. Well, that was great. Thank you for telling everybody about it. And I guess now let's, you want to start the episode about the Cajun Navy?
4:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, for sure. Not too long ago in an episode, we had a listener mail that referenced the Cajun Navy. It is not something that I had heard of, even though it has been sort of all over the news, but I don't watch news with my eyes and ears. I generally read stuff. And I guess I just had never read anything about this, even though the Cajun Navy, it seems like have done a lot of great things, but there's also some criticism.
5:21 Josh Clark? Yeah, it's a good example of how absolutely everything in the United States can become politicized.
5:27 Speaker 02 Yeah, good point.
5:28 Josh Clark? And it is like, I get criticisms. I also get the praise as well. Like at the end of the day, these dudes, as you'll see, are putting their lives on the line to help other people.
5:42 Speaker 02 That's right. What we're talking about is a group of men and women. Now there are many different groups, but it's been dubbed the Cajun Navy and it sprang from Hurricane Katrina, when they were like, hey, we need more help. We need to help beyond FEMA in this case. It's so devastating. We know that you've got boats, you got airboats and you have the will, people of Louisiana. And the call went out and they, people came to help and helped a lot and they were dubbed the Cajun Navy.
6:10 Josh Clark? Yeah. So although the Cajun Navy is, we'll see like, as we understand it today, really kind of developed in 2016, basically all the origin stories, all competing origin stories trace their themselves back to Katrina. And that is a good place to start because that is one of the best examples of government failing its people that has happened in recent history.
6:33 Josh Clark? The Bush administration, FEMA, like they just botched helping people. And so there was a really big vacuum that other people who were just basically moved to go help people who'd just been left behind, like, hey, good luck on your roof. Hopefully, everything works out. People got their own boats. They got their own trailers. They drove to New Orleans and got as close as they could. They put their boats in when they hit the water and they went and rescued those people themselves. No one paid them. No one even really asked them to do this. They just knew that people were in trouble. They knew that they could help them. And so I think as Governor Kathleen Blanco later said, when she was kind of talking about
7:17 Josh Clark? this retrospectively, she said it was Louisiana people helping Louisiana people.
7:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, for sure. There were some asks and calls for help. There was a Louisiana state senator named Nick Gatro. And he went on the TV and the radio during Katrina and he said, hey, if you've got a boat, we need your help. There's a mall outside of New Orleans and Lafayette, about 150 miles away. And we could use some people. And he thought maybe, you know, 20, 30 people might show up. Close to 400 people showed up and they ended up forming an eight mile convoy of trucks and boats. And in the end, CBS News reports that they rescued 10,000 people during Katrina alone.
8:02 Josh Clark? Yeah. And this is where they were dubbed the Cajun Navy later on. But like this is just, it's astounding. Like from the outset, it was just, just amazing. Like just the number of people who showed up, the number of people they saved. And this is exactly the kind of thing that people love to read about, hear about, see about. Because it's like, yes, people are still basically good. And then on the other hand, we also, as a country in particular, love to start picking apart everybody, including heroes who selfishly act.
8:38 Speaker 02 That's right. The guy who would later become one of the founders of the United Cajun Navy. And like we said, there's a, I think, close to 30 or more people or groups, organizations, who have dubbed themselves some version of a Cajun Navy like this.
8:52 Josh Clark? Yeah.
8:53 Speaker 02 Well, we should point out that only three of those are nonprofits.
8:56 Josh Clark? Yeah, that's a big, big deal.
8:58 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a red flag in some cases. But this guy's name was Todd Terrell, and he owned a seafood business that was completely devastated during the first few days of Katrina. So he lost everything. And after that, he didn't take his shrimp net and go home. He said, "I'm gonna help rescue people." And so he kind of headed up a lot of this and ended up one of the actual founders of the United Cajun Navy, like I said.
9:22 Josh Clark? Yeah, and United Cajun Navy is one of the big ones, maybe the biggest, definitely the most professionalized, and they are a 501(c)(3) nonprofit. But the Cajun Navy moniker itself is shared by a number of different groups, like you said. And there's something about these people in particular that make them, they have a very specific set of skills, I guess you could say.
9:50 Josh Clark? One, a lot of them are Cajun and grew up, spent their whole lives and still spend a lot of their time out on the bayou in boats that are designed to navigate obstacles in very shallow water.
10:06 Speaker 02 That is to say, airboats?
10:07 Josh Clark? Airboats, pierogues. Yeah, that's, well, those two.
10:14 Josh Clark? I think bass boats also, they use a lot of bass boats. So not only are their boats designed for this, they have a lot of experience in getting around a dumpster, but say in the form of like a cypress tree and all of the knees, like, they know what they're doing. They're expert boatmen and boat, when boat people, how about that?
10:32 Speaker 02 Yeah.
10:33 Josh Clark? And so there's a, there's a really like big incentive to, for these, to welcome these people because they know what they're doing. The issue is, as we'll see again and again, they are expert boat people. They don't necessarily have search and rescue training. And that's one of the, probably the biggest, most legitimate criticisms of the whole thing.
10:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, for sure. Even though it was born in Katrina, I believe you kind of hinted that 2016 during the thousand year flood of Louisiana, when 31 inches of rain fell on Baton Rouge over the course of 24 hours.
11:07 Josh Clark? Insane.
11:08 Speaker 02 It was an incredible amount of rain, completely devastating. The first, you know, when Katrina happened, that was pre-smartphone. 2016, that was the difference was all of a sudden you had 56 of Louisiana's 64 parishes were declared federal disaster areas. And you had a Cajun Navy at work with smartphones and social media that could triangulate and who could post like, we need people here, we need people there. It became much more organized, much more cohesive in 2016, thanks to, you know, social media and smartphones.
11:44 Josh Clark? Yeah, and in particular, an app called Zello.
11:48 Speaker 02 This, this sounds cool. I'm going to try this out with the family.
11:50 Josh Clark? Dude, you should go check out their, the website for the app, like just their, you know, all the different bells and whistles it has. It is nuts. So basically, Zello turns a cell phone into a walkie talkie. Even if you barely have a signal, you can use it. Like with, with a low enough signal that you couldn't make a call, you can still use your phone as a Zello walkie talkie.
12:12 Speaker 02 So cool.
12:13 Josh Clark? There, it gets even better. It translates, you can speak and it will translate into another language that you select.
12:20 Speaker 02 That's cool.
12:20 Josh Clark? You can coordinate with people who speak different languages. And all of a sudden now, all of these people who only had cell phones can now coordinate and organize and be much more effective than just like, say, two guys in a boat and there's two other guys in a boat here. Now they're saying, well, this is where people need the most help. Let's send these guys out here because they're closest to go get those people. Like it, there was a completely different level of coordination and organization than in Katrina.
12:50 Speaker 02 Does it translate the Cajun accent?
12:52 Josh Clark? I'm not gonna say it, but yes, it does. I will, I will, I give you full reassurance.
12:59 Speaker 02 You know, who could help us with that is our old buddy Doug, right?
13:01 Josh Clark? Doug Shashery.
13:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:03 Josh Clark? Shashery.
13:04 Speaker 02 We've met him backstage at our two New Orleans shows. What a good guy.
13:07 Josh Clark? He treats us so well. He brought us boudin. And we just went to town on those things.
13:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, so good.
13:14 Josh Clark? Sausage balls, right?
13:16 Speaker 02 Uh, yeah, that's what it is, right?
13:18 Josh Clark? Bready gravy sausage balls. They're amazing.
13:22 Speaker 02 This is so good. Uh, the Cajun Navy these days, though, is a big deal. Like you said, like the, the, the three, like, super legitimate. And I'm not saying that none of those are doing good work, but the three nonprofits are like big, big time. They have multimillion dollar budgets now. They have chapters all, like even in Hawaii, they have them all over the country. And they are funded by charitable donations. They're staffed by volunteers. And that seems like a good time for a break. Good intro.
13:48 Josh Clark? I agree.
13:49 Speaker 02 All right, it's an early break, but we'll be right back.
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16:17 Josh Clark? If you own a home, you already know, stuff breaks. It's not if, it's when. And somehow, it's always like the AC in July, or the fridge right after you go to the grocery store. That's why you always hear people say, "They don't make appliances like they used to," because it's kind of true.
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17:38 Speaker 02 All right, we're back and we're going to talk about the credo of the Cajun Navy, because if they're known for one thing, that is, like, don't wait around and just save people, just get things done. And their credo is, it's unofficial, but it seems pretty official, is act first and deal with the consequences later.
17:56 Josh Clark? Right. Which on one hand is like, yep, if you are stuck on your roof, that is the kind of person you want to come get you. You don't want them filling out forms to get permission to come rescue you from your roof, right?
18:08 Speaker 02 That's right.
18:09 Josh Clark? On the other hand, there's reasons for regulations, it's safety for everybody. There, there's reasons for government in that sense, right? This is where the, this is where the kind of breakdown starts to occur.
18:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, let's start with, with the good of acting first. You're going to rescue a lot more people a lot quicker. You're going to get food and aid to people a lot quicker. A very great example of this was Hurricane Harvey, the category four that dumped 60 inches of rain in Texas over a course of four days. It was completely devastating, apparently the wettest, costliest hurricane in US history. And because of what happened in 2016, I think they felt like, hey, the call is coming now from Texas. There was a call specifically in one case that was a nursing home in Port Arthur that was underwater. Cajun Navy volunteers rushed out there. They got there, they found, you know, people not able to get out of their wheelchair,
19:10 Speaker 02 stuck up to their knees in sewage water. They hadn't eaten since at least the day before. They were hydrated, many of them were confused. And it kind of came literally to blows when a Navy volunteer named Ben Husser went to get these people out and the director was like, "Our corporate policy, sir, says it has to be a National Guard evacuating us."
19:32 Josh Clark? Right. And so Ben Husser said that he beat the hell out of this guy. He drew his gun on him at one point to basically say, "You need to get out of my way because we're evacuating these elderly patients who you're clearly neglecting."
19:47 Josh Clark? And they did. They ended up, they ended up evacuating this, this, this group of nursing home patients, got them to, I think, a bowling alley or a movie theater, both which were turned into basically emergency centers for people, shelters. And this was like, this story is tailor-made for social media, right?
20:08 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
20:09 Josh Clark? One of the reasons why it's tailor-made for social media is because it only presents one side. And it's, it presents like what seems like the morally correct approach to this situation. Just like anything, there's another side. Nothing is black and white. And so this nursing home director, in one sense, yes, he was, he was following his corporate orders, that he was not supposed to let anybody else evacuate the patients. But he was responsible for these patients. On top of that, there are studies that show that evacuating elderly and medically frail people can actually be deadlier than having them shelter in place.
20:50 Josh Clark? That's even if you're evacuating them ahead of a storm. This was in the middle of a storm, that these elderly and medically frail people were evacuated. And then thirdly, these Cajun Navy guys showed up. They don't have like ID cards that say Cajun Navy, signed by the governor of Louisiana. They're just some dudes that showed up, one of which pulled a gun on the director of the nursing home and said, we're getting these old people who you're responsible for out of here. Get out of our way, or we're gonna beat you up and shoot you. So, like, it, to, this is, the Cajun Navy is just such a great flashpoint, because it's so easy to, to almost cartoonize what they're doing, for, for better or worse,
21:33 Josh Clark? and just completely ignore the reality of the situation. And I think in that sense, it's just so worth talking about, because it's, it's an exercise in how
21:44 Josh Clark? How much emotion and just dumbness we put into evaluating stuff and how tribal that stuff makes us and that this is a great example of saying, here's something people are doing, here's the problems with it, let's figure out how to work everything out together so that they can still save lives without the downsides that are clearly inherently posed in this.
22:06 Speaker 02 Yeah, for sure.
22:07 Josh Clark? That's why this Cajun Navy story is so, I find, important.
22:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as far as kind of seeing it both ways, that happened all the way up to the top of the ladder. Donald Trump became very, sort of, I guess briefly attached to John Bridgers, a founder of the Cajun Navy, specifically Cajun Navy 2016, which is its own group. Invited him to the State of the Union address in 2018, had him up there when the Houston Astros visited the White House after they won the World Series. He called out the incredible Cajun Navy. And then, you know, on the other hand, was quoted as sort of saying like, hey, you know, stay in your boats, like, these guys are out here trying to impress their wives and let the professionals do their work.
22:56 Speaker 02 And I think that just kind of illustrates how, how each side has a leg to stand on, you know? Like, sure, you want to, you want to rescue people, but as we'll see, you know, there, rules and regulations are there for a reason, but sometimes it's just dumb red tape. It's like, it's hard to kind of come down for me on hard on one side or the other because on one hand, you have a group that, a lot of this comes from sort of an anti-government sentiment, if not anti-government, maybe be very distrustful of the response to natural disasters, but then when you see botched responses, you can see where they're coming from.
23:32 Josh Clark? Yeah, I mean, as far as how these people's direct experience with FEMA was in Katrina, I think George W. Bush put it best when he said, fool me once, shame on, shame on you. Fool me, you can't get fooled again. And that's essentially what happened. FEMA fooled them once and they have never forgotten it.
23:53 Speaker 02 I thought that was Roger Daltrey.
23:56 Josh Clark? No, no, no, that was pretty good.
23:58 Speaker 02 Won't get fooled again?
23:59 Josh Clark? Nope.
23:59 Speaker 02 Uh, here's a quote from the Vice President of United Cajun Navy, another group. Uh, Brian Trashers said, Katrina is what ultimately showed us in the world that really people, even in the richest country in the world, people cannot rely on their government to save them from the weather. If a flash flood hits your house and all of a sudden you're on a roof, you're not looking around for FEMA because they're nowhere around. And a lot of this goes back to not just a distrust of the official systems, but sort of the, the shame of a nation, a nation. Like you've got the richest country in the world that's not able to save their citizens from a flood or people that need to rely on the donations of their friends and neighbors to get over cancer without bankrupting them, you know?
24:40 Josh Clark? Right. Yeah. And that's definitely a supported, insupportable viewpoint for sure. How about this? We'll take a break and we'll come back and we'll talk some more about the Cajun Navy.
24:51 Speaker 02 Let's do it.
25:08 Josh Clark? Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability and it all starts with a great deal on the truck from your local Toyota dealer.
25:18 Speaker 02 That's right. Make a smart buy on the off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's most capable and longest lasting trucks, built with the strength for the tough jobs, the tech to power your next big adventure and the rugged style for everything in between.
25:31 Josh Clark? Or discover Toyota's off-road lineup, including the iconic forerunner and Land Cruiser, designed to go beyond the everyday. And with Toyota's proven reputation for quality and reliability, plus hybrid power on many models, you can get more for every mile and drive for less along the way.
25:47 Speaker 02 That's right. And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with great resale value. So you could trade in for more when you're ready for your next Toyota. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.
26:11 Josh Clark? If you own a home, you already know stuff breaks. It's not if, it's when. And somehow, it's always like the AC in July, or the fridge right after you go to the grocery store. That's why you always hear people say they don't make appliances like they used to, because it's kind of true.
26:27 Speaker 02 That's right. Good thing there's American Home Shield with an AHS home warranty. They can help fix major home systems and appliance breakdowns like your AC, plumbing, or fridge. And if they can't repair your covered item, they'll replace it, no matter how old it is.
26:39 Josh Clark? And that's huge, because fixing an AC can cost a lot. Like, hey, kids, our vacation is canceled a lot. Plus, as a benefit to select plans, you can get real-time video help from live repair experts to troubleshoot home hassles at no extra cost.
26:53 Speaker 02 Listen, everybody. Home ownership is already stressful enough. No need to upset your wallet. So check out American Home Shield now and get 20% off any plan at ahs.com/sysk and see promo details. See ahs.com/contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations, and exclusions. American Home Shield: Don't worry, be warranty.
27:21 Josh Clark? You know, eating is a huge part of our lives. It fuels us, it brings us together, and it's one of life's great pleasures. But once a meal's over, we don't think much about what happens next, unless something starts to feel off. Because what we eat and how our bodies respond to it is complicated.
27:36 Speaker 02 That's right. From the very first bite, food kicks off a chain reaction, signals moving between the gut, the brain, and the immune system. A constant back and forth we can't see and often don't fully understand. So we want to introduce to you Eating Interrupted, a new podcast from iHeart Ruby Studio. It's hosted by longtime journalist and Crohn's patient Cynthia McFadden. Eating Interrupted explores everything from food allergies and intolerance, and why they seem to be on the rise, to how digestion changes as we age, and what it's really like to live with a chronic GI condition.
28:04 Josh Clark? Through personal stories and expert insight, listen in to unpack what it means when your body doesn't always respond to food the way you expect, and what science is now revealing about why. Listen to Eating Interrupted on the iHeart app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
28:37 Josh Clark? So Chuck, I think you mentioned that 2016 was a really pivotal time. Those floods in Baton Rouge.
28:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:45 Josh Clark? Where a bunch of different groups that present themselves as Cajun Navy groups formed. And as some of these groups really started to emerge, in particular Cajun Navy Relief and United Cajun Navy, they started to organize, they started to form 501(c)(3)'s and accept donations and show up more and more frequently at natural disasters. They started to get more pushback. It went from just some guys with boats to this is an actual organization showing up.
29:16 Speaker 02 Right.
29:17 Josh Clark? And what they're, you know, they're organizing, they're helping, but they're still, as far as we, the people who are professionals at this stuff are concerned, just some guys with boats. And there was, you know, I guess, tension that started to arise.
29:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, for sure. Amanda Faulkner was a spokesperson for the Coast Guard, I believe, that said, you know, we have, we have plenty of boats. We don't need more boats. The Coast Guard has all the boats that we need. We know when it's safe to get them out in the water. At one point, do you become a liability is basically what people started asking. Or when are you in the way? When are you creating an unsafe situation? Or, like you said, with the people in the retirement home, like, maybe, you know, if there were 15 of them, maybe 13 of them, it was great to get them out of there. But what if two of them had very adverse health outcomes because of that rescue?
30:09 Josh Clark? Right. And also, you have not received medical training to evacuate people. The National Guard, who are supposed to evacuate these people, do get medical training. Like, there's just a lot of arguments that you can make against it. And some government agencies have started to make those arguments against it. And you can say, well, yeah, these guys are upset that their turf is being stepped on. And even worse, they're being made to look ineffective, uncaring, and just basically concerned with bureaucracy not saving people's lives, which is what the Cajun Navy is all about.
30:44 Speaker 02 Well, yeah, and especially if it's a situation where you're rescuing people who own Louisiana and a group of Cajuns on an airboat show up. They may be just innately more trusting of them than when the FEMA truck pulls up, you know?
30:58 Josh Clark? Uh, yeah, for sure.
31:00 Speaker 02 Like, they're locals, and, you know, conspiracy started springing up that FEMA was actually, I think this was in
31:07 Josh Clark? Helene.
31:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, in Helene in 2024, started in Florida, went up through the east coast into the Appalachian Mountains.
31:15 Josh Clark? Just nuts.
31:15 Speaker 02 Killed a lot of people, 250 people, and I think it was the deadliest hurricane since Katrina. And this is when conspiracy started to spring up and words getting around that FEMA is using, the government's using this as a chance to seize your property so they can have and own your land.
31:32 Josh Clark? Right, and just like how in 2016, social media helped a lot of the Cajun Navy organize and be more effective. This is a great example of how social media helped the whole system just break down all the more completely. Because if you have people who actually believe that these government agents who are now there, like, I saw a FEMA truck, FEMA's here, that they're actually going to try to steal your land, maybe kill you. Like, you're already under the stress of your house is underwater because of a natural disaster. That's going to create a climate that you don't really need. That's not the Cajun Navy's fault.
32:08 Speaker 02 Right.
32:09 Josh Clark? You can't really lay that on them. The point is that in that kind of climate, they become all the more vital. But at the same time, them pointing out the failures of the government just by them existing becomes all the more pronounced as well.
32:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, and boy, I hope what doesn't happen is that the Cajun Navy doesn't roll in here and disparage more organized governmental efforts at the same time, you know?
32:34 Josh Clark? The ones that I saw, the ones that you could feel comfortable donating to or good about donating to, don't.
32:42 Speaker 02 Okay.
32:43 Josh Clark? No, that's actually a pretty good sign. I think if you actually are looking at Cajun Navy to donate to and they do that, then you should probably keep walking.
32:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, and if you look at the sort of more official organized ones, they do try to work with FEMA. They're not combative. Sometimes they do work around FEMA if they think that it is holding up a legitimate rescue or aid coming to someone. But Todd Terrell said, "We try to work with the government as best we can, but the government can't do what we do. FEMA is not designed to do what the Cajun Navy does." And that's a fact. It's a quicker moving, quicker operating. They make the point that somebody with a laptop or a satellite phone in the Cajun Navy can get supplies there a lot quicker than going the official route.
33:34 Josh Clark? Yeah, like you could say, "Hey, we have a whole bunch of bottled water. We want you to take with you when you take your boat to go rescue people." And that aid that you sent to those people in need could get them in a few hours, rather than having to go to a warehouse, be put on a truck, and then the truck has to deliver supplies. Like, it is agile, as they say in the project management world. And that's a huge bonus. I mean, in addition to the fact that these people are risking their lives to save other people for no compensation whatsoever.
34:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, there's an article in GQ by Miriam Markowitz, who kind of affirmed what we were saying about, you know, it just shows like people love to have faith in like regular people and they love the hero stories. But points out, I think the quote is, "For our efforts to be effective, they need to be large scale and systemic. Heroism can't be the exception in a civilized society, and it shouldn't be financed by micro donations through GoFundMe campaigns. We pay taxes for firefighters and police because we can't bank on the whims of our neighbors to save us." And it's these institutions that have cracks that need to be shored up, along with some local volunteer efforts, I think, you know?
34:53 Josh Clark? Yeah, but those institutions that we pay for through our taxes, like, we're owed them to be effective in response. But at the same time, when those things work correctly, that is something that can give the entire nation a sense of pride. In just the same way that stories about everyday people joining the Cajun Navy, saving other everyday people, saving their lives, literally.
35:18 Josh Clark? They give you like a reaffirming faith in humanity. If FEMA had showed up and saved everyone in Katrina, that would have given everybody a reaffirmed faith in like the collective good of say like organized government, right?
35:34 Speaker 02 Right.
35:34 Josh Clark? Or maybe even like a sense of patriotism. That's not what's been happening, right? So that's where the breakdown is. I think that Markowitz is saying is that our government's failing. And then the presence of the Cajun Navy is just pointing this out even worse. And then worse than that, if we come to rely on essentially crowdsourced or vigilante forms of like supportive efforts, whether it be say a fire department, you know, that just basically is a bunch of guys who who come out on Saturday nights, but not on Tuesday night if your house is on fire, to say like the Cajun Navy, who may or may not make it out to the natural disaster in your neck of the woods. Like we, you just can't, you can't rely on people.
36:19 Josh Clark? They're not, these people have jobs. They have, they have families, they have stuff they have to do. They're not getting paid for this. So you inherently can't rely on them, even though they they are reliable people. You can't rely on them in every situation. That's why we have these institutions. That's why these institutions have to be, like you said, shored up and step up so that we don't need the Cajun Navy.
36:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, one of the criticisms or potential criticisms is that it might discourage evacuation if the storm is impending. And people knew from the news or social media that like, hey, man, you're on your roof, the Cajun Navy will be there, toot sweet, and get you out of there with a bottle of water in their hand. A lot of people might like not follow evacuation orders because they're reliant on something that may happen, but it may not. But you could also say the same for for the government institutions, you know?
37:13 Josh Clark? Yeah, apparently you really, as a government spokesperson, shouldn't say like, "It's gonna be worse than this last storm," or "It's as bad as, say, this last hurricane." Because people will be like, "Oh, I didn't evacuate for that, and I made it through fine." You know, so yeah, you can definitely misstep. But I think getting people to evacuate's gotta be one of the harder things you could possibly do.
37:33 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. Another criticism is that, you know, when you've got people in there, all of a sudden, there's more people on the scene. It could create confusion and maybe even hazardous situations. And perhaps even a situation where you're needing to then rescue people from the Cajun Navy who have run ashore, or whatever happened that was, you know, bad for their efforts.
37:55 Josh Clark? Yeah, there's a rumor, that's not true, that some Cajun Navy people showed up to help after, or during even Hurricane Michael, and got stranded in a hotel and had to be rescued. And they did have to ride out some of the storm in the hotel, but they didn't need to be rescued, and they left from the hotel to go help people. So it seems, I couldn't find any instance where somebody who was in the Cajun Navy needed to be rescued themselves. And that seems like the kind of thing that would've made news everywhere if that had happened. So it seems to be like a theoretical issue that hasn't happened, but could.
38:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, but it's also like, hey, we rescued 10,000 people in Katrina, but this group of six needed some help themselves. It's sort of a flimsy argument, you know?
38:42 Josh Clark? Yeah.
38:43 Speaker 02 It's not like every, every part of the Cajun Navy, all of a sudden, all needs rescue as well, you know? Like, maybe that kind of thing could happen, but on a pretty small scale.
38:52 Josh Clark? Agreed. Another one is that it just straight up encourages vigilante-ism, or vigilantism. And, you know, on the one hand, if the government institutions were there, the Cajun Navy wouldn't necessarily be there because they wouldn't be needed. So there's, you know, there is a place for this, but on the other hand, even if it's morally correct in an instance, you don't, you do not want to encourage vigilantism in any form whatsoever, because that is a major facet of mob rule, and you don't want mob rule. So even though this is, this makes a lot of sense, you can make a really good argument that if
39:33 Josh Clark? you look far enough down the road, it's not, because how long would it be potentially, again, theoretically, before, say, a Cajun Navy guy takes it on himself to start looking for looters? And he starts patrolling things with looters, and he starts shooting at looters?
39:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:48 Josh Clark? This is not this guy's place to shoot at looters, and yet he's taking it upon himself. Like, again, this hasn't happened, it's theoretical, but the point of, is, is that encouraging any form of vigilantism can have these knock-on effects that says, well, if you're willing to let people do this, this makes sense too, so let's start doing this as well.
40:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, that, that sort of, I could see that happening, because we've seen it happen with the, the strapped neighborhood watch situation.
40:16 Josh Clark? Sure.
40:17 Speaker 02 And it's not hard to draw a line there. So, yeah, I see where you're coming from. My big thing is like, to think about the legal liabilities. I don't know how, how it works when you're an official nonprofit, you know, with multimillion dollar budgets, you're way more official, but what if you're just one of these other sort of startup Cajun Navies, and something happens where you caused the loss of life? Or you caused something terrible to happen, like, the liability, the legal liability, and the, just the sort of ethical and moral liabilities are pretty tremendous.
40:51 Josh Clark? Yeah, I think people who are like, say, working for a state agency, or a government agency, or like, the National Guard, they are immunized from civil lawsuits for, like, if they, if somebody gets injured while they're rescuing them, you can't sue that person. That's not true for the Cajun Navy, and that's actually one argument for solving a lot of these problems, is enticing them to kind of become more part of the larger...
41:19 Josh Clark? Search and rescue community that responds to natural disasters to coordinate more with them. Still be a Cajun Navy, but come here and get training. Come here and figure out how you can coordinate with us for all of us to be the most effective. And in return, we'll extend this legal immunity to you when you're operating in these natural disaster areas.
41:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, but then the headline is government ruins Cajun Navy.
41:47 Josh Clark? Right. I think that's why there's some resistance to it. But the, I believe both the Cajun Navy Relief and the United Cajun Navy both require their members to undergo training.
41:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:59 Josh Clark? Like official training, I believe. And they, they do, like you said, tend to coordinate with responders more than just like go out and say, to hell with you, I'm going, you know?
42:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I'm sure as they, I mean, this was not that long ago that all this started up. I'm sure as it grows, if it's allowed to grow, it will become more rigorous in the training and, you know, because they're out to do good. They want to do good things and they want to solve problems on the ground. So they're not like, yeah, we don't need no training, you know? Like, I'm sure given time and, you know, the donation of funds coming in, they're trying to do just that, I imagine.
42:38 Josh Clark? Right. So there are, again, I think you said most of them are for profit. There's some that are nonprofit. And to rise to the top again, United Cajun Navy and Cajun Navy Relief, on Charity Navigator, they have 85 and an 87 rating respectively, which is pretty good. Charity Navigator says you can give, you can donate to this, these groups with confidence, right? That they're going to use your, your money wisely. I didn't see on Cajun Navy Relief, but I'm guessing it's the same. United Cajun Navy, their officers, the people who run the show, get $0 compensation.
43:19 Speaker 02 Wow.
43:19 Josh Clark? So you don't like, there's, there are, there are groups of these people who are genuinely dedicated to this, who are doing it right. Then there are others who are like getting arrested for fraud. So do your homework before you, you like make a donation. But if you feel moved to donate, go donate. But just do a little bit of research first. Don't listen to somebody on the internet who says, you know, stay away from this group because this group's better. Go do your own research and Charity Navigator is usually a pretty good place to start.
43:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, totally.
43:50 Josh Clark? You got anything else?
43:52 Speaker 02 I got nothing else. This is a rare short-ish long or a extra-sized short.
43:57 Josh Clark? Nice. Well put, Chuck.
43:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:59 Josh Clark? Since Chuck said what he just said, I think it's time for listener mail.
44:05 Speaker 02 Uh, yeah, we're gonna forego listener mail this week just because we, uh, I wanted to take a quick moment. We just got back from our first tour in a year and a half.
44:12 Josh Clark? Mm-hmm.
44:13 Speaker 02 Uh, back out on the road, doing shows in Denver and Seattle, Washington and San Francisco, California.
44:18 Josh Clark? So great.
44:19 Speaker 02 Just wanted to thank everybody at the Paramount Theater in Denver, the Paramount in Seattle, and the Sidney Goldstein and SF Sketch Fest, who always does such a great job. Just, I feel like we don't often thank the people there that put these shows on. And the crews were all great. The people that came out to see us, thank you so much. It's hard to part with a dollar these days. I know times are tight.
44:41 Josh Clark? Yeah.
44:42 Speaker 02 So we really, really, really, um, it means a lot that you would spend some of your money to come out and hear us talk for a couple of hours.
44:50 Josh Clark? Yeah, and your time and, yeah, just leaving your house is an ordeal these days anyway. So, yeah, we genuinely appreciate everybody who came out. And like, that was really a great way to get back on the road after 18 months, you know? It was a great welcome back, so thank you, guys.
45:06 Speaker 02 It was a lot of fun. The show is really fun and great. Uh, and we say this also as a reminder that we'll be doing shows in Madison, Wisconsin, Chicago, and Akron, Ohio, before hitting the road for, um, Canada this summer. And there are still plenty of great seats. And like I said, it's a fun show. The, there's a lot of bad stuff in the news going on. And it's, it's nice to go sit around for a couple of hours with a bunch of curious, uh, smart, compassionate people, which is the Stuff You Should Know Army.
45:33 Josh Clark? That's right. Well put, Chuck.
45:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:36 Josh Clark? Uh, if you want to get tickets or whatever, I think we basically have like a clearinghouse on stuffyoushouldknow.com and you just click on the on tour tab and it will take you to heaven.
45:47 Speaker 02 Yay.
45:47 Josh Clark? Uh, if you want to get in touch with us in the meantime, you can send us an email. We always love it when you send us an email. Send it off to [email protected] .
46:00 Speaker 03 Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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