David Icke, Conspiracies & Cuddle Club | Michael Malice | Modern Wisdom Podcast 159

Michael Malice is an author, political commentator & podcaster. In case you didn't know, me and Michael are now best friends after our first episode a few months ago. So I got him back on to have a catch up. No agenda, just us talking about whatever we've been thinking about recently. Expect to learn what life is like in New York City during lockdown, whether London Real should have been allowed to record their David Icke episode, how to receive a compliment, why kindness is so important and Michael's views on motivation, positivity & staying resilient during challenging times. Get Surfshark VPN - https://surfshark.deals/MODERNWISDOM (Enter Promo Code MODERNWISDOM for 83% off & One Extra Month Free) Extra Stuff: Buy Michael's Book - https://amzn.to/31soCH7 Follow Michael on Twitter - https://twitter.com/michaelmalice Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom #michaelmalice #davidicke #londonreal - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: [email protected]

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Michael Malice?

  The fact that people have been by and large coming together, keeping their spirits up worldwide, that's not how the movies play out. The movies play out that as soon as this happens, the governments have to come in and crack down, they go in door to door, rounding people up, or whatever, blah, blah, blah. And it's been a while, and I'm shocked by how mature everyone is, and I'm glad how mature everyone is being. And frankly, I'm also shocked and delighted by how much the politicians are keeping it together, how there is a lot of, alright, let's, you know, Italy's calling the US, they're calling Boris, they're calling South Korea President Moon, they're like, alright, what do we need to do, what's working over there, what's working here? And there's a very, and they're also being, other than obviously China, as transparent

• 0:45Michael Malice?

  as possible. Here's what we're doing, here's the numbers, here's what's working for us, here's not what's working for you. And I think that makes people feel a lot like, alright, they're on it.

• 0:58Chris Williamson?

  Michael, motherfucking malice in the building. How are you?

• 1:03Michael Malice?

  Hi, brother. Yeah, good to be here. Governor, I think that's what's right.

• 1:06Chris Williamson?

  Cover T, Governor. How are you?

• 1:08Michael Malice?

  Yes, brother.

• 1:12Chris Williamson?

  So I feel like we need to bridge the gap between our first episode and this one, because this is like someone watching season one of Michael and Chris, and now watching season five of Michael and Chris. And there's a whole bunch of narrative that's gone on. Now we both, we're living together, we own a dog, I've met your parents, I'm considering to propose, all that sort of stuff.

• 1:33Michael Malice?

  It's been so far, it's been five seasons.

• 1:39Chris Williamson?

  Season five's getting serious, man. So I want to ask you, what have you learned since we've been friends?

• 1:46Michael Malice?

  So it's funny, I'm gonna answer that question in a second. I just finished reading this book, which is called Gumption Island, which is a forgotten book. It came out in 1956 by Felix Morley. He was a Pulitzer winner, he was the first one to win a Pulitzer for the Washington Post. He was one of the founders of the Mount Pellerin Society. You know, he later became a prominent, you know, anti-war right-winger. And the book, it takes place, basically the premise is there's this community in Maryland, in America, they're hit by the Soviets with a weapon, and they're thrown back in time to the dinosaur era. And what's amazing about this book... There's all sorts of action that happens off screen, like you were just mentioning. And I'm reading it, I'm like, did I miss something?

• 2:30Michael Malice?

  Like, the Russian character marries the daughter of the other prominent character. And you only find this out when they're like, well, ever since you guys get married. I'm like, wait, when, they were never even dating.

• 2:40Chris Williamson?

  The ceremony, yeah.

• 2:42Michael Malice?

  Dating. One of the kids is eaten by a pterodactyl. And it's never mentioned again. I'm like, hold, isn't this a problem when children are being eaten by anything? And then there's this whole subplot where the bankers in this community want to have a coup and basically seize control. And like five pages later, it's like, well, ever since we had to impeach blah, blah, blah. I'm like, wait, they, the coup failed? Like, it's so crazy reading like this. So what have I learned since we've been friends? You are, you and I probably chat on a daily basis at this point, I think. You're probably the closest person in my life who I've never met.

• 3:20Michael Malice?

  And I think, you know, we come at life from probably different perspectives, but similar wiring. Different, very, very different life experiences, but a similar approach, being extreme intensity, intellectual curiosity, pride, yet self-awareness, I think. Maybe we all fail in some of those, maybe not others. So I think one of the things I have, well, you've given me some fitness advice, which has been very useful. But I mean, since this, we became pals, it's this mates, I think they say over there. This whole virus thing, you know, obviously hit, so that's obviously thrown a number for all of us.

• 4:01Michael Malice?

  You know what, the one thing I've learned, I would say, if I had to put one thing, is that I have a bigger, this is gonna sound pompous and I don't care, I have a bigger audience than I realized. And that there are people who, when I do crap like this, it actually gives them something to do. So I better get off my ass and do it. I don't have the space to be kind of in hermit mode.

• 4:23Chris Williamson?

  I couldn't agree more, man. There's a analogy that I use all the time about the hero in the mythological stories. And it's like, it's the unwilling hero. The hero has to go and slay the dragon, not because he wants to, but because he can. And because he can, he has to. It's like, if no one else is going to go slay the dragon, and I said this to you, I was, I can't remember where I was, we were driving somewhere, I was at you on Skype, talking away. And I was like, man, like, you have a particular coalition of skill, like Liam Neeson, I have a very particular set of skills. And you have a very particular set of skills. And if now isn't the time for people who can make their audience feel connected,

• 5:03Chris Williamson?

  and like they're a part of something, if now isn't the time to do it during a global pandemic, where everyone can't, literally can't leave the house, then when, when is that time?

• 5:13Michael Malice?

  Yeah, but for me personally, there's two big issues with that. One is, and I just had to block someone on social media because they were just rolling their eyes. I'm an extreme introvert. I do not do well with groups, which is not, which is, people misunderstand what introversion is. And also, it's the kind of thing where I don't want to think, it's obnoxious to think of yourself as these people you've never met, you're having an effect on their life. It's like, all right, get over yourself. But it's like, well, the dad is there. So they think this, because this isn't how I entertain myself. And this isn't how I get out of my funk.

• 5:55Michael Malice?

  I don't watch podcasts. It's not my thing. I get very, very restless, you know, and part of the reason is I'm a talker, right? And part, so when I have to sit and listen to people talking, and the more interesting the conversation, the more I want to be engaged in that conversation. So inevitably, it would become a source of frustration, rather than, I mean, for me, it's a very, of all the activities, this is the one where I wouldn't want to be on the bench. I don't know if they have that idiom over there, whatever they have in cricket.

• 6:28Chris Williamson?

  On the sidelines, on the sidelines. Yeah, on the bench. Well, here's a, here's an interesting thing about cricket for you. So as I guess kind of similar to baseball, but baseball inherently speeds up the batting process because it's after three strikes or a couple of balls. Maybe you could have like some strikes, some balls or whatever. 10 minutes probably at most. The bat is some, he's either at base or he's back in the dugout. Whereas there's guys in cricket, I've played games where one batsman has been at the crease, as it's called, out, out on the field for days, multiple days that a batsman's done that. And if there's not a lot of other players getting out, that means that especially if you bat down the order further down, you're just sat in a pavilion, watching the game unfold.

• 7:15Chris Williamson?

  Like there is no more lackadaisical sport on the planet than cricket. You're just there like observing, observing it happen.

• 7:23Michael Malice?

  One of the most annoying things about cricket, and I do have something annoying, is that in 1990, when Sir Jeffrey Howe was turned on Thatcher and he stood up in the House of Commons and he had a speech that took her down days later. And he was just using a cricket metaphor to talk about why she's horrible. She's got to go. And it's like, it's like going to the crease only to find out your something has broken your something. And everyone in the House of Commons is like, holy crap. I'm like, I don't know what these words are, like crease. You know, so it's just like, dude, if you're going to have this speech, which is going to go international, very historic, this is the Judas speech, like at least have it be universal. So I don't think cricket is played outside of like a former British Empire colonies, right? It's not played like France, is it?

• 8:06Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it is played in France. Definitely British colonies, I think overtakes like South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, UK, like.

• 8:16Michael Malice?

  I don't think Canada even plays it.

• 8:19Chris Williamson?

  Not sure. Yeah, maybe not.

• 8:20Michael Malice?

  I don't think they do. I'm very big a culture.

• 8:23Chris Williamson?

  I'm not sure if Americans have the patience for cricket, man.

• 8:26Michael Malice?

  We'll do now.

• 8:27Chris Williamson?

  Fucking everyone's got the patience for everything. Yeah, exactly.

• 8:32Chris Williamson?

  I want to, I want to bring up probably the best story that I've seen recently, which is about Rishi, Rishi Sunak, who is the British Chancellor. And this is in The Independent yesterday. Your strange crush on Rishi Sunak could actually be a racist fetish.

• 8:51Michael Malice?

  Yeah, so do you know Helen, do you know Helen Primrose is?

• 8:59Chris Williamson?

  Pluckrose?

• 9:00Michael Malice?

  Pluckrose. Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry. Yeah.

• 9:02Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 9:02Michael Malice?

  So she, you know, she was the one who, and a couple of her friends, they, I should say friends, colleagues, I'm sorry. She wrote an article for some peer reviewed journal, just filled with jargon and it was incoherent and she got it through. And she's really excellent on Twitter and she's one of the people I resent who doesn't follow me back, but that's okay. And she made the point that the social justice subculture, you start with the reverse, with a conclusion and you reason your way backwards. And that's an example she used. She was talking about cashiers. So if you are kind of, don't talk to the minority cashier, you're racist. But if you talk to them too much, you're fetishizing them.

• 9:44Michael Malice?

  So you can't win. And this is an example, like, so if you don't like, a person is a minority in power, you're obviously prejudiced. But if you do like them, you clearly like them for the wrong reasons and you just can't win. I don't know who this person is. They haven't crossed the pond, but.

• 9:59Chris Williamson?

  It's the guy who is, for a period, was going on TV at.

• 10:03Michael Malice?

  Let me look him up. Rishi?

• 10:04Chris Williamson?

  Rishi Sunak. He's the British Chancellor. He's the man who's in charge of our budget at the moment. He's the guy that went on TV and said, we are finding.

• 10:13Michael Malice?

  I was young.

• 10:14Chris Williamson?

  Three hundred and thirty billion pounds. We will be paying everybody eighty percent of their wages because it is important for us. I said we would get it done and we will get it done. When I meant we will get, like, dude. He killed it. Like, season one of the British government was awesome. Then in season two, they killed off Rishi and Boris because they've been in isolation.

• 10:39Michael Malice?

  Let's use a choice of words. Knock on wood, Boris is still with us. And I'm just going to interrupt you. I'm sorry. I just had this tweet. I go, I wish for the health of Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn. I know it's Turkey now. But if a world leader goes down, people are really going to start freaking out and the consequences there are really, really going to be disproportionate, regardless of whether you think Boris Johnson is the devil.

• 11:02Chris Williamson?

  Though, Andrew Doyle found a bunch of tweets of people saying, I hope that Boris passes away. I hope that he dies, this, that and the other. And you think about how, just how short sighted you have to be for that to be the sort of thing that you decide to go out of your way to type on a keyboard and press send?

• 11:19Michael Malice?

  Well, it's two things. Let's, let's be, let's, I'll, I'll do them at their own game, right? Let's, let's be out, out soulless. If that happens, this is going to get people to like the conservatives more because now they have a martyr. He's going to be retroactively regarded as a hero because we always look at people fondly when they pass than when they're alive. And so this is not going to get you the result that you want. And again, not to mention the social unrest that will happen as a consequence. So I, there is this, one of the greatest essays I've ever read online. In fact, I could probably name only five essays that I've read online that are like super, is by Slate Star Codex. And he had this piece called, I can tolerate anything except the out group. Are you familiar with this?

• 12:01Chris Williamson?

  No. Meditations on Moloch by Scott Alexander on Slate Star Codex is probably the best thing I've read in the last two years.

• 12:09Michael Malice?

  Yeah. He, so this piece is a masterpiece because he went through social media and he compared people's reactions to when Thatcher died to when Bin Laden died. And he pointed out that when Thatcher died, you know, the song Ding Dong, The Witch Is Dead is in the charts. And when Bin Laden died, there were plenty of people who were like, come on, this is a human being, even though he was evil. And this dissonance, he points out, is similar, I don't think he uses this analogy, to the uncanny valley. The idea that when mannequins or, you know, cartoons become a little too lifelike, but a little not lifelike enough, that little spot, it's actually very disturbing. As opposed to when they look exactly like humans or they look like cartoons. And it's like when someone is close to us, but just a little off.

• 12:51Michael Malice?

  We are much more put off with them and are much more hateful than if someone is completely, you know, outside the fold.

• 12:58Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Yeah, it's a, it's a weird one, man. The, um, the way that people have been reacting. But yeah, okay, let's not use the word kill off. They got rid of them from season two. So I'm hoping on Monday, season three of the British government restarts. And I'm hoping that they bring them back, that they do like King in the North type Game of Thrones-y stuff.

• 13:18Michael Malice?

  I, I'm just really sad that Rebecca Long Bailey didn't get the nod because I was a huge fan of hers. Cause she's a real life Tanya McGrath. Um, and she was saying how she's, she literally, this is her line that she's, uh, inequality keeps her up at night. And it's like, I mean, this is, it, it would have been fascinating to see. Because I feel like Boris Johnson and her are both kind of caricatures of people and a certain political stance. So watching that kind of like, it would, but it would feel much more like a movie than adults having adult conversation.

• 13:51Chris Williamson?

  Versus cliche, isn't it?

• 13:52Michael Malice?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, man. Um, the next thing, so there's only two things really that I've got to bring up. But the second one is this David Icke interview on London Real. Did you, have you seen anything about this? If I hadn't brought it up to you over message, would you have seen anything?

• 14:07Michael Malice?

  I, and I told you, I thought it was pronounced London Real. Isn't there a city called Real Madrid? Isn't that a sports team?

• 14:14Chris Williamson?

  Real Madrid is the team from Madrid in Spain. Yeah, London.

• 14:20Michael Malice?

  So I assume London Real is something to do with that. Like maybe it's their British, I'm not even joking.

• 14:25Chris Williamson?

  The British fanbase for Real Madrid. Okay. No, it's, I mean, it would actually probably be more fun if it was that. But let me.

• 14:34Michael Malice?

  Are there, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Are there British fans of teams from other countries?

• 14:38Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, some. Okay. Not a lot. I think when you come from the country where the top flight of soccer, football is played, people, they get sucked in, but I'm, there will be, I'm sure. I've got a couple of friends I know that support, um, some French teams and a couple that support some, I think it would tend to be that.

• 14:58Chris Williamson?

  You would have a preference when other foreign teams were playing each other?

• 15:01Michael Malice?

  Sure.

• 15:02Chris Williamson?

  But in domestic games, you'll have your own team as well.

• 15:05Michael Malice?

  Who's the most popular foreign team in the UK, would you say?

• 15:08Chris Williamson?

  Oh, that is a good question. Juventus, perhaps. Atletico Madrid, Real Madrid.

• 15:17Chris Williamson?

  Bayern Munich, maybe. There's some football fans just screaming at their phone, into their AirPods at the moment, telling me what it is. But I think, I think they would probably be up there. All the European ones. I don't think anyone's going to be loving like LA Galaxy or something like that. I don't think that there's going to be. So yeah.

• 15:33Chris Williamson?

  David Icke, you know David Icke is?

• 15:34Michael Malice?

  No.

• 15:35Chris Williamson?

  Okay, David Icke is a British.

• 15:40Chris Williamson?

  How would you even call it? Conspiracy theorist.

• 15:42Michael Malice?

  Oh, I do. I thought it was pronounced Icke. I'm not, because we have someone named Harold Icke's here. He's one of the lizard people with Colorado.

• 15:49Chris Williamson?

  Correct. Yes, of course. Right. David, David Icke, David Icke.

• 15:52Michael Malice?

  Is it Icke? You sure?

• 15:53Chris Williamson?

  Icke.

• 15:54Michael Malice?

  I'm not sure.

• 15:54Chris Williamson?

  Hundred percent.

• 15:55Michael Malice?

  Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, thank you.

• 15:57Chris Williamson?

  So he did an episode about three weeks ago on London Real with, with Brian Rose, who I've felt a little bit off with for quite a while. I'll get into that in a second. Did an episode talking about how coronavirus, you know, we don't know what it is. What even is the, what is coronavirus? The people up top, they don't want you to know. And so they did, basically it was that for three hours. Then at the start of this week, I'm going to say Monday, he brought him back in. So first things first, our company is under a national lockdown mandated by the government.

• 16:37Chris Williamson?

  Brian has brought a 60s year old man into his office. Not only has he brought him in, but Brian's had to go in. Brian's not a spring chicken. And videographer, photographer, sound desk mixer, production assistant, you know, all that stuff. So they've gone in during a government mandated lockdown to record this episode. And they record it and I've listened to the full thing. And David Icke says he opens up and it got taken down off. YouTube, I'll get into that in a second. But if you go onto Apple Podcasts, four minutes and 33 seconds, he says the sentence. This is, this is David Icke. This is the headline. There is no COVID-19. It doesn't exist. Yeah.

• 17:20Chris Williamson?

  So that's how he opens up, right? That's, that's the headline of this. He says it himself, it's self, self-defined. And then on Tuesday, YouTube takes the video down. YouTube deletes it. It had a live stream. It was very well watched. It was garnering a lot of attention, that obviously. And they take it down. Takes a little bit of time. Brian gets in touch with them and says, finally, finally speaks to them. And they said, we have a policy at the moment. And now any videos that are saying that COVID-19 is fake, or that it's related to 5G, are subject to this same taking down.

• 17:58Chris Williamson?

  Now, the problem is that because they took it down, it's turned from being a discussion about the credence behind David Icke's arguments to now a free speech issue. Yeah. And it's immediately just, they're trying to censor the truth, bro. That's the, the first thing that everyone has now. And I don't believe that YouTube were right in taking it down. I don't think that they, there was some evidence that people had set fire to 5G towers in the UK, but it wasn't as if it was incited by that episode. So I don't really think that they have any reason to do that, but they did.

• 18:35Chris Williamson?

  And now Brian Rose has been on an absolute warpath, like fuck the BBC, fuck Facebook, fuck Instagram. I don't even need you. Very narcissistic, very, very self-involved, incredibly self-involved. And that's kind of been one of the biggest things that's happened on the internet in the UK this week. Been pretty mad.

• 18:58Michael Malice?

  Well, you know, it's funny, he had the exact opposite reaction that I had. My reaction is, no one cares what you have to say, so I can just sit on my ass and be fine. Obviously, he's got a much bigger audience than I do. And his reaction goes, everyone cares what I have to say. And if I don't do this, this is a threat to the world.

• 19:16Michael Malice?

  This hasn't crossed over here. I don't know about this being a free speech issue. What I am concerned about, and I've talked to many of my friends, you know, I'm anarchist and very, very skeptical of government power. But we are all very happy that in every country, it hasn't become rioting. It hasn't become civil unrest. That, yeah, sure, these laws are in place, but I think people are more than happy to do this voluntarily. And I'm shocked and delighted how much... Because we've all seen, the thing that I was having a very big issue with this whole situation was transitioning. I'm a New Yorker, I've been here all my life. And you and I talked about this on the phone, how it was very difficult for me psychologically as a New Yorker to see the streets being empty.

• 20:01Michael Malice?

  It's something I just couldn't, I felt like I was in a movie or a crazy person. And there were movies, like I'm Legend or Vanilla Sky, where you've seen this. But the seat in reality, it just was a disconnect. And this had, you laugh, but this really had really bad psychological consequences. So, and no, you're right to laugh. But at the same time, I am glad, and the fact that this happened so quickly is also that there was no real transition. It's overnight, like, don't get in your house, don't come out. The fact that people have been, by and large, coming together, keeping their spirits up worldwide, that's not how the movies play out. The movies play out that as soon as this happens, the governments have to come in

• 20:43Michael Malice?

  and crack down, they go in door to door, rounding people up, or whatever, blah, blah, blah, putting... And I know in South Korea, they're thinking about putting these bracelets, right, and so on and so forth. And we haven't gotten there yet, but it's been a while. And I'm shocked by how mature everyone is, and glad how mature everyone is being. And frankly, I'm also shocked... And delighted by how much the politicians are keeping it together. How there is a lot of, all right, let's, you know, Italy's calling the US, they're calling Boris, they're calling South Korea President Moon, they're like, all right, what do we need to do? What's working over there, what's working here? And there's a very, and, and they're also being, other than obviously China, as transparent as possible.

• 21:25Michael Malice?

  Here's what we're doing, here's the numbers, here's what's working for us, here's not what's working for you. And I think that makes people feel a lot like, all right, they're on it.

• 21:34Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more, man. Like, the response has been surprisingly mature from everyone, from public and government.

• 21:44Michael Malice?

  And of course, there's people online who are rolling their eyes right now, be like, how can you say that? Given X, Y, and Z. Well, yes, I'm saying that considering that information that you also have. Given that negative stuff and the positive stuff, I am, the fact that we're not in Lord of the Flies, the fact that we're not in Mad Max, the fact that we're not in, you know, we had riots in, in Baltimore, we had riots in St. Louis, not that long ago. The fact, obviously, it's harder to riot when there's disease around, but rioting is not a rational, like, you know, you don't sit at home, you're like, all right, when would it be most feasible to riot, right? It's, it's a powder keg. Here's another one, the fact that we haven't had home invasions, things like this. And, and people getting, God forbid, raped in their homes. I mean, this is sitting ducks.

• 22:27Michael Malice?

  That is really gratifying. And this is another reason, you know, I'm a hardcore optimist, and I'm a hardcore optimist not because it's my nature. I'm Russian born, it's my nature's the opposite. I'm a hardcore optimist because I look at the data. And if you're going to be a cynic and you looked at the situation now, you'd predict, oh, people are going to be starving, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, no, no, people are really bending over backwards to maintain this social order. Now, we'll see how long this lasts, but it's lasted quite a bit of time already, and as well as could be expected.

• 22:58Chris Williamson?

  The thing that I, that is becoming increasingly challenging for me, and I don't know whether this is just who I'm exposed to online, or some of the stuff, is it's an easy step from that to the conspiracy theorist types that believe there's a second motive to everything that's going on, for them to Say, well, see, this just proves how compliant the public is when the government decide that they're gonna shove their hard rod of fucking policy up your They're eroding your rights. They're taking away this, they're taking away that. And you're like, dude, fucking give it a rest. Like, what's your alternative? Genuinely, what is your alternative to this? Would you rather that people were? So Brian Rose, again, like, the guy is brazenly walking around London filming videos.

• 23:41Chris Williamson?

  10:30. Hey, guys. 10:30 PM. London Real offices just finished up here. Just wanted to give you an update. It's like, Brian, mate, there is a fucking

• 23:52Michael Malice?

  Oh, that's why you sent me that video. Now it clicked. Okay, yeah, yeah. You sent me that video. I didn't understand what I was looking at.

• 23:57Chris Williamson?

  No, no, no. I sent you, I sent you a video of him by day on the rooftop, on the rooftop of government of London Real's offices, saying, just finished a workout here. London Real HQ, done some kettlebells, some sprints, bit of breakdancing in the stairwell. Can you imagine coming down the stairs to find Brian Rose from London Real doing breakdancing on the landing? Brian, can you stop fucking power windmilling, please? I'm trying to get to the, so, I mean, that's just, you're not above the law. And he keeps on saying, one of the things he keeps bringing up is, um, we have this little thing in America called the first, the first amendment.

• 24:38Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, the constitution. I'm like, the elephant in the room, Brian, is that you are not in America. Like, you're in the UK. We have hate speech laws over here, for better or for worse. Most people would say for worse. But Count Dankula, all these people that have been, you know, criminal records locked up, et cetera, et cetera, for this. And this is at the same time. So the chief constable of Northamptonshire Police.

• 24:59Michael Malice?

  Wait, that's a real person? That sounds like a title that we would make up to make fun of you. The chief constable of the what?

• 25:06Chris Williamson?

  Northamptonshire Police.

• 25:09Michael Malice?

  How many still?

• 25:12Michael Malice?

  All right, Governor.

• 25:13Chris Williamson?

  Well, I mean, when your title is a sentence.

• 25:16Michael Malice?

  Yeah.

• 25:19Chris Williamson?

  Chief Constable of Northamptonshire Police.

• 25:22Michael Malice?

  Okay.

• 25:22Chris Williamson?

  Said people are persistently and consistently breaking the law by flouting lockdown and they could get criminal record. He's issued essentially broader scope for his officers to enforce the law. And he mentions, he's like, we'll check if we need to, we have the ability to check what people have in their shopping, to check whether or not they're going out to buy an Xbox controller or they're going out to buy milk. And if you're buying an Xbox controller, we'll find you. That's not where they're at, but that's where he's getting to. All the while, Brian Rose from London Real is getting a senile old man to come and talk about lizard people in his offices in the centre of one of the most popular cities on the planet during

• 26:02Chris Williamson?

  the middle of a global pandemic. And I can't, like, it's just really, I already had a, Brian was already on my watch list, he was already on my cunt list, and now he's just like gone straight to the top.

• 26:15Michael Malice?

  I don't know that I have anything particularly to add to what you just said. I mean, I can see how that would be. I think there's also probably an emotional sense, is this part of for you that, how is it that no good deed goes unpunished? Like, you're the, you're playing by the rules, you're trying to stay sane, you're locked in your house, and this guy gets to do what you wish you could be doing, breakdancing in the stairwell.

• 26:36Chris Williamson?

  I'd love to breakdance in the stairwell.

• 26:38Michael Malice?

  So it's kind of like, it's, it's when people who are rules breakers, but in an obnoxious way get rewarded. I think that sets up our sense of justice.

• 26:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I think as well, there's something incredibly insincere about the way, again, because you can't frame it up against his character, it's a little bit more difficult. But anyone that's listening will know, will know what I mean if they know Brian Real, Brian Rose. He was taking selfies on the London Underground a while ago, before mandated lockdown was in, but when suggested isolation was still going. Talking, it was just him, just him on the London Underground in an empty carriage, essentially being like, I am here, look at me, I am a thought leader within this space. And he kept on talking about, we need leaders and men of action. I'm like. We need people to stay in their fucking houses, Brian. You need to go break dance in your living room and you need to just do what every other podcaster.

• 27:29Chris Williamson?

  When Joe Rogan is doing episodes over Skype with like fucking Dan Crenshaw and that virologist the other day. And he has been the most, the most like, uh, voracious advocate for not doing that. He's like, I hate doing episodes over Skype. You know, when he's prepared to bend his rules and he's the biggest on the planet at what he does. Like, why, why, why can't you, especially when you bring in an OAP in?

• 27:54Michael Malice?

  See, if, if this, if this Brian guy was smart, he would make a point which does have historical basis. And I just talked about this earlier on a radio show today here in the States. 1918 was when the US entered the Great War. And this was for many of the, at the time progressives, a huge thing because they're like, all right, we're going to this war. We're going to have our fantasy that we've been advocating for a couple of decades now of having the state manage the entire country. Basically like one giant company. So now we have to do it. We have to have complete centralization of production, centralization of taxation. We're going to have institute censorship, control the mails, uh, things like that.

• 28:37Michael Malice?

  So for them, they're like, if we're going to go into this great war, like we're going to get a lot of useful data out of it. By seeing how much we can get away with and what it's going to look like. So that when the Great Depression hit, uh, 14 years later, or excuse me, 11 years later. And then FDR was elected in 32, inaugurated in 33, a lot of his New Deal programs, they were like, all right, we went through this during a war. Now you're not going to bitch and moan that we're doing it during the Great Depression because you've already been preconditioned. It's like the second time you get into a fight versus the first time you get in a fight. It's going to be night and day because you're like, all right, I've been through this. It sucks. So he does have a point in that if in five years, some government was like, we need to do this totalitarianism.

• 29:21Michael Malice?

  A lot of people would be saying sincerely, guys, it's not going to be that bad. We've been through this before and we've all done it. So stop your complaining. So they are unnecessarily, I don't, but the thing is he's saying intentionally.

• 29:36Michael Malice?

  I'm sorry, like, sure, I'll, I'll, I'll accept the fact that every politician in some world is a sociopath, but when you look at how they talk, all, everyone I've seen from around the world, they all are freaking out, not freaking out, but they're all extremely concerned, they all feel the weight of this on their shoulders, they all have families, you know, they all have moms and grandparents or whatever, things like that, um, and they're like, all right, like, how, how do we get out of this? I, I don't think they're thinking long-term, this is our globalist moment to implement the master plan. I think they're thinking very short-term.

• 30:12Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely, yeah. When the lizard people's parents and grandparents are dying just as quickly as everyone else's, you kind of just, it's the same thing as if you fall into quicksand, right? You don't have an existential crisis when you're falling into quicksand, you just think about getting out. Um, there's this concept by Matthew Sayad that I, I have to tell you about, right? It's called compensatory control. Have you heard about this?

• 30:34Michael Malice?

  No.

• 30:34Chris Williamson?

  Cool. Why Conspiracy Theories and Demagogues Spread in Times of Worry and Uncertainties. This is Matthew Sayad's piece in The Times.

• 30:42Michael Malice?

  Oh, can I guess if what his answer is?

• 30:44Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 30:45Michael Malice?

  Uh, and let's see if I'm right, okay? I, are you saying he's on the level, this guy?

• 30:50Chris Williamson?

  What's that mean?

• 30:51Michael Malice?

  I mean, are you saying that what he's saying actually ports the truth, or he's using it as an example, someone's wrong, guy?

• 30:55Chris Williamson?

  This is crazy.

• 30:56Michael Malice?

  Is he going to say that in times of panic, any kind of explanation, that's kind of an Occam's razor that gives people a sense of certainty, is enormously emotionally reassuring?

• 31:05Chris Williamson?

  You are a very clever man. You are, oh yeah, pat on the back.

• 31:09Michael Malice?

  He's absolutely right.

• 31:10Chris Williamson?

  Man, let me hit you with this. So, psychologists have conducted experiments to shed light on why people lose or at least suspend rationality. One experiment asked people to imagine going to a doctor to hear an uncertain medical diagnosis. Such people were significantly more likely to express the belief that God was in control of their lives. Another asked participants to imagine a time of deep uncertainty when they feared for their jobs or the health of their children. They were far more likely to see a pattern in meaningless static or to infer that two random events were connected. This is Such a common finding that psychologists have given it a name compensatory control.

• 31:50Chris Williamson?

  When we feel uncertain, when randomness intrudes upon our lives, we respond by reintroducing order in some other way. Superstitions and conspiracy theories speak to this need. It is not easy to accept that important events are shaped by random forces. This is why, for some, it makes more sense to believe we are threatened by the grand plans of malign scientists than some chance mutation in a silly little microbe.

• 32:16Michael Malice?

  Yeah, and there's a couple of examples of this. I give in talks and networking and I tell the kids, I go, if you're, don't aspire to excellence, it's not going to be possible at your age with your skillset. Aspire to competence. If you're competent, you're at the 80th percentile. And the example I use is I would rather you tell me you'll have it on Wednesday and I'll have it on Wednesday. Then you tell me you'll have it on Monday and give it to me on Tuesday. Doesn't make sense if you think about it, but in other sense, it does reassuringly. I, there's a therapist I know, his wife had this disease after nine 11, so on and so forth. People would rather, like the fight example, right? Like if you've never been in a fight, what the hell is it? Once you've been, it sucks, but it's the irrational fear is not there.

• 33:01Michael Malice?

  A disease, they found, yeah, people would rather say you've got leukemia than for go on for years. And they don't know what's wrong.

• 33:09Chris Williamson?

  We don't know what you've got.

• 33:10Michael Malice?

  Yeah. And that's just how we're wired. And I cannot, and we could all understand if we think about it.

• 33:16Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely. It's seductive. We want to bring order to chaos.

• 33:19Michael Malice?

  Yeah. What about like a relationship? Like what's going, like, what was that Facebook thing? It said it's complicated. Like we'd rather be like, all right, it's done a lot of times. When then when things are ambiguous, like, okay, I can't even deal with this. I have to break it up. As opposed to, I don't know what the situation is.

• 33:32Chris Williamson?

  Have you heard of the Zygonic effect?

• 33:35Michael Malice?

  No, it's that.

• 33:36Chris Williamson?

  Okay. So it's a, just how the brain has open and closed loops. And it's a writing tool, actually, which might be interesting for you to know, considering that you might start writing again soon. And this was used by, oh my God, a very famous author. And there's going to be people shouting at the, at the podcast again, saying who it is. Very famous author back in the day who would use this. Essentially, the brain doesn't like open loops and it does like closed loops. However, open loops can be manipulated. So for instance, let's say that you do a day of writing and you finish your session at night. You could finish the sentence one word in rather than at a full stop. Because then when you come back to it the next day, that loop's open rather than closed.

• 34:18Chris Williamson?

  So you just continue an open loop rather than having to reopen a brand new one. That's on the back end of something that's been closed off. It's the same reason why we don't like, like you say, cliffhanger endings at the end of TV series. They're so compelling. We need to watch the next season of Michael and Chris because we want to know what happens next. Right? We need to know. That's, that's what gets them. Zygonic effect, open loop, closed loop.

• 34:44Michael Malice?

  That's interesting. I, I, that's actually speaks to how I write. And then we're going to talk about your shirt because I'm very curious. I, when I write, I do three pages at a session and then I force myself to stop. So that means I never have writer's block because I have more in the can tomorrow. And I know I'm not going to have to, I'm picking up where I left off.

• 35:05Chris Williamson?

  Do you have, do you have a note taking for like, you, you might have all of these ideas right now and kind of forget. Do you just sort of throw them down on a, on a

• 35:12Michael Malice?

  Oh, I've got a separate document. Or if I have like a future scene or future section in the book, I'll hit return twice and I'll write that. And then when I go back and edit, I'll, I'll put the space in between.

• 35:23Chris Williamson?

  That must be, that must be beautiful to, to reach a section that you need to write and find that a past version of yourself has already written it for you. It's like a present from past Michael to, to present Michael.

• 35:37Michael Malice?

  I've been doing a lot of this time travel kind of thinking. I had this tweet, which I thought was really helpful, which is if you're someone who's dealing very poorly with isolation, who have suicidal ideation or depression or anxiety. I said, write a note to yourself when you are going to be freaking out. Cause this is your rational self traveling in time to talk to your future self. And you'll know that this person is telling the truth in writing. And I said, and you and I did this, I said, also make a promise to someone that if things get really bad, you'll hit them up. And you'll know, you made that promise, things are bad, I gotta talk to this person before I do anything crazy.

• 36:14Michael Malice?

  And when we do these notes, another thing is, I'm gonna be a little frivolous, is with like maintaining your, if you're on a regimen, you're eating a certain way. The reason diets don't work is if it's, if willpower is finite. So if you're constantly having to have, what am I gonna eat, what I'm gonna eat, you're gonna at some point have a disordered thinking and you start eating the wrong thing and it becomes a spiral. Whereas if you tell yourself, this is what you're eating for this week, you know, no matter what you're feeling in that moment, I was in my right mind on Sunday, so I'm going to listen to him. Now, I'm gonna ask you about cuddle club because one of the most profound things I've ever learned was from my friend Marcia, who ran something called Cuddle Party here in the States.

• 36:56Michael Malice?

  And what Cuddle Party was, and it was a big joke, although when people thought about it for 30 seconds, they realized this isn't really a joke, it's actually a great idea. Is people get together and they cuddle because physical contact is so important for all of us as human beings. And I asked her, well, how do you, like, I mean, doesn't it get like orgy, like, like what happened? She goes, yeah, yeah, she goes, well, they have a line like, trust, uh, don't fear the boner, and that's, that's kind of funny. The other line they have is, she says is, it is incumbent in each of us to establish our own boundaries. Because people will take, people take as much space as you let them. And I'm like, wow, and when she said that, I think I bring this up all the time, it's so important for all of us, especially on social media.

• 37:40Michael Malice?

  To be like, no, no, I'm not dealing with another moment of your BS, because you can't expect that person to respect your boundaries. Now, what is Cuddle Club?

• 37:48Chris Williamson?

  So I'm wearing a t-shirt which on the front and the back says Cuddle Club, and it is by Built Up North, which is Paul Warrior, one of my coaches from CrossFit. It's his clothing brand, sports clothing brand, although it crosses somewhere between Supreme, Off-White, and like a good sports brand, I guess. So this is, this is a training t-shirt, this is what I would, I would train in, and Cuddle Club is a concept that they've been throwing around for ages. In fact, they've just donated, I want to say two and a half grand to Mind, which is the, one of the UK's mental health charities.

• 38:30Chris Williamson?

  From a release, a limited edition release of long sleeved cuddle club tops, same as the one I've got on. So I bought one of those and it's a reference to people working hard in workouts. This is not fucking cuddle club. Like you don't get, uh, this is, this wasn't a cuddle club. Like really nice. This couldn't be further away, kind of from your, um, ladies, what sounds absolutely lovely, a lovely experience of people kind of giving each other support and love. This is more like, let go of the fucking balloon. No one's going to do the work for you. I have a T-shirt in there from the same brand, which says, the magic you are looking for is in the hard work you are avoiding. Oh yeah. Yeah.

• 39:08Chris Williamson?

  So that's what a lot, a lot of the stuff. So shout out Paul Warrior, Jordan and Tim, who will be listening, who are all pushing this sort of rhetoric when it comes to training. I think it's so cool and it reminds us, especially when it gets to training. We can become, especially if you're slightly cerebral and a lot of CrossFitters are. Oh yeah. Rep scheme, this workout, hours of sleep, I'll track it on my Whoop band. This is my HRV last night, all this stuff. You kind of forget that there is just a raw animalistic nature to training where you kind of need to go balls to the wall. And perhaps give risk, uh, forget risk for a little bit.

• 39:47Chris Williamson?

  And, and just focus on intensity and have faith that your physiology, uh, that you're training, that your movement engrams, your nutrition, everything will kick in at that time. So this is, this is not cuddle club, but it's also a funny joke because there's a bunch of boys that work for us who went through a period where they just couldn't have sex. They kept on going back to girls and girls' houses after a night out and they were unsuccessful. Rebuffed in one form or another, or couldn't get it up or whatever it might've been. Uh, and then this T-shirt, I bought the T-shirt at the same time. So it was very timely on like a number of levels.

• 40:21Michael Malice?

  Well, that speaks, well, let's talk about the flip side of that. That speaks to, there's a great British band I could not adore more. I have a framed picture of theirs signed in my living room, Saint Etienne. I don't know if you're familiar with them. They're a club band. And they have a song called Soft Like Me. And it's just encouraging people to be soft. But I think a lot of times, and I've messages to you, that we need to be kind to ourselves. And we tend to think that if we are relaxing, or especially when we're younger. I have a protege and he kind of had this, I had to talk him out of it. Like, whenever I get a paycheck, 10% of that money has to be spent on frivolities. I put that aside. Because otherwise, being self-employed, I remember the lean years. Not that I'm particularly wealthy now.

• 41:04Michael Malice?

  And I would always rather wait for the train than pay for the cab. And now it's like, that tithe, like you have to throw this money down the drain. So that if you're earning money, enjoy it. So I think a lot of times, we have trouble confusing, am I being kind to myself? Or am I being lazy? Because the mind is very good at finding excuses not to do the work. It's very good at finding excuses. Don't go to the gym, you go tomorrow, play the video game. And that's not what I'm talking about. But it is something, it's very important for driven people to be able to relax, enjoy the fruits of your labors. And, and instead of beating yourself up all the time, give yourself a kindness.

• 41:46Michael Malice?

  Because if you are beating yourself all the time, because you have this kind of, maybe not as good self-esteem, I'm not saying that's your problem, it's not your problem, it's our problem. Well, maybe that person with low self-esteem could use a little kindness. And maybe that'll make his or her life a little brighter. So, this is something I think is under, and that's obviously not really the opposite of what they're saying. You shouldn't half-ass your workouts. But this is something I think a lot of us could use a little bit more of. And there's also something I'm very opposed to in my work. I don't know if it's that way over there, but here in New York and in media circles, there's this really nasty, sneering cynicism towards any kind of kindness, or warmth, or friendliness. It's seen as eye-rolling, it's seen as corny.

• 42:30Michael Malice?

  And it's like, you know, you're a hard-

• 42:32Chris Williamson?

  Can you give an example?

• 42:34Michael Malice?

  Well, like any kind of, any kind of movie or kind of expressions of affection, you know, is really kind of like, oh God, oh please. It's like, it's like, it's regarded as ridiculous or somehow less than. Music, right? Or movies. If the plot isn't about pathos and about like, you know, depravity and it's just about like a family having a fun vacation and it's very kind of heartwarming, a lot of times it's not regarded as legitimate as if they gone through, you know, the kid having leukemia and, and make a wish and so on and so forth. And I hate that attitude. I, I really hate it. I think kindness goes a long way. And here's another example, social media, right? I've always, I'm always against this idea that if something is common, that doesn't mean it's the norm. Uh, just because everyone

• 43:17Michael Malice?

  does something does not mean it's actually how things should be and that it's acceptable. And it's perfectly appropriate on social media to go up to strangers and just call them the nastiest things possible. And it's like, congratulations, you found a moron on, on Twitter. Like this is your big accomplishment for the day. There's, there's no shortage of them. Whereas it's, I'm a big troll, as you know, as, as many, as similar listeners might know. My way that I stick, I've always tried to push trolling to the next level. Uh, and my trolling technique for 2020, I started out is I've been texting and writing messages to friends of mine, really kind things, being like, hey, thinking about you today. I just want you to know, I appreciate you as a person. And they don't know how to react and it freaks them out. And that's just, so it's win-win for me.

• 44:02Chris Williamson?

  What's happened? Michael, are you okay?

• 44:04Michael Malice?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Chris Williamson?

  Are you sure?

• 44:05Michael Malice?

  And I tell them the truth. My life is genuinely better since I've met you. And they're like, well, how do I respond? Cause we don't have that space to be kind to one another. Everyone has to have a joke, uh, or dismiss it. And I'm like, that's, that's a little insidious.

• 44:18Chris Williamson?

  There's so much, there's so much for us to unpack from this, but you know, people that are listening, here's one thing that I realized I was doing. I was really bad at taking compliments.

• 44:26Michael Malice?

  Really?

• 44:27Chris Williamson?

  I would brush them off. So I, I, I had imposter syndrome so bad that someone would say something, they would go out of their way, genuinely go out of their way to say, hey man, do you know what it is? I really like the way that you. Pick your arbitrary thing that I do, open a can of Coke, write words, do your marketing copy. It might have been like a physique compliment back in the day, or it might have been something to do with the business, whatever it might be. And I would, I would say something back like, oh yeah, well, you know, like, that's what happens when you're a total prick all the time, or when you've got no life outside of the gym, or whatever it might be.

• 45:07Chris Williamson?

  Like, and it was, for people that are listening, think about how you respond to compliments. And if that's the sort of thing that you, that you say, there's a couple of implications. The first one is that's because you don't believe that what the other person is telling you is true. That's the reason you do that. And by not needing to accept it, you close the gap between your self-image and what that person is saying. But the more important thing, and this is what really changed it for me, because I wanted to try and find more of a connection with people. And as an only child, this was like a weird kind of bridge for me to get over. What I realized was, it's really insulting for someone to

• 45:47Chris Williamson?

  go out of their way and compliment you, and for you to then fucking rebuff it. They've said something really, really kind and nice to you, and you've just thrown it back in their face, like, fuck you. Like, and that's why a lot of people, and this was me for ages, I would say, do you know what it is? I just don't really feel like people care about my work, or they don't really like my work. I'm like, I wouldn't fucking care about your work. Every time someone says something nice to you, you just spit it back in their face.

• 46:15Michael Malice?

  Yeah, it's, it's actually, but there's something else that at a certain point, people, when you're certain sand deviations away from the mean, people don't know how to connect with you. Like, I have a good buddy now, and he's like into bodybuilding. And he's at that point where you will notice him, he walks in a room, and everyone has some reaction. It's never just nothing, right? And men are often feel like, like, I, you know, I wrote a book on North Korea, I've been to North Korea. And if it comes up at a party, this happens inevitably, and like, what's your book on North Korea? They feel the need to just tell me everything they know about North Korea. And I'm like, this isn't a test, and you can't win. And it's fine that you don't know or care about North Korea. This isn't how, but they don't, they're trying to build that bridge between their

• 46:59Michael Malice?

  circumstances and mine, when, when the bridge is already there. So. When guys come up and they feel the need to have this conversation and be all like, not complimentary, more like, almost like a servile, you know, like, oh, blah, blah, blah. Like, he's like, I don't know how to react because either I come off like a douchebag or I come off, whatever, I go, just tell them you're compensating for your tiny penis. And when you say it like that, the guy will laugh and it's like, oh, this guy's normal. He just likes working out.

• 47:27Chris Williamson?

  Well, this is a good, a good point to interject here. Why don't you mention, because I haven't heard you say this and I haven't asked you this, but you tweeted one of the most complimentary things that I think anyone's ever tweeted about me after our first podcast. And you said, there's only two people in my life ever that have.

• 47:47Michael Malice?

  The two people whose, whose opinion changed the most after I talked to them was you and Joey Salads.

• 47:55Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. What did Joey do? Because I want to know that.

• 47:58Michael Malice?

  Joey Salads is an internet, he was like a prankster on YouTube. He's a YouTube personality. He's a total bro, like, you know, in every way. He came to, and he was running for Congress. I think he still is. And he came to do my show and I'm like, this guy's going to be a total moron and I'm going to completely clown him. And within minutes, he was like, I don't know about the Fed. I don't know about the taxes. I do know about social media. I think the Republicans need an AOC. I think I could bring that to the Republican. And I'm like, oh, so he wasn't presenting himself as anything other than what he was. He was open about his limitations and he's like, here's how to get laid. Like, he's like, this is what you got to do on Instagram, blah, blah, blah. And he's giving me tips like from a friendly place.

• 48:42Michael Malice?

  And I was like, I had him completely, completely wrong. And when you're coming from that, when you have, it's that expectations game, right? So when I came in, I thought this guy's going to be a joke. And right away, he's not that he's being humble. It's that he's being honest. He's like, I don't know these things. I mean, if you're going to try to play gotcha with me about foreign policy, yes, you'll win. So I was like, oh, shit, this guy, because a lot of these YouTubers, you think that they're going to have their head up their own ass and I'm sure many of them do. I haven't met many. It was not that way at all. And ever since then, I will always sing his and your praises. It's just like, oh, it's really, it's, it's just interesting how we come and we have to have these heuristics when you're traveling in these circles about, okay, what box is

• 49:27Michael Malice?

  this person probably coming out of? Because you have your Love Island thing. It's like, all right, like, I know this person. It's like, oh, no, I don't. I know what I think is this person.

• 49:36Chris Williamson?

  An idea. Yeah. A good example of YouTuber that I think has really taken the red pill on a lot is Logan Paul. Like that guy is operating four orders of effect down from everything that it is that he does. I don't know whether you saw, do you see the thing about where he said he was the fastest man on the planet?

• 49:55Michael Malice?

  No.

• 49:55Chris Williamson?

  This. So he went on, he went on NBC Business. Do they have like an NBC Business Channel or CNBC?

• 50:04Michael Malice?

  CNBC, yeah, CNBC.

• 50:05Chris Williamson?

  Like, so they're talking and this lady is asking him these questions, dude, you've got to go back and watch it. It's, it's phenomenal. So they're trying to talk to him. I think it must have been just after the tax year had ended or something. And they're trying to say, so Logan, you've just been rated as one of the top earning YouTubers last year. You were, your revenue was 14 million. And he's going, yeah, well, Michelle, you know, I really think I might be the fastest man on the planet. Like, I really could be the fastest man on the planet. Like, you know, I definitely the fastest YouTuber by, by, by a country. And he's just going on and they, and she's laughing. So she's quite endeared to it and it's semi good looking host lady as well. So it's kind of like you're seeing her try and battle against his genuine charm. And I'm not like a massive Logan Paul fan, but fuck me.

• 50:50Chris Williamson?

  He, and he knew what he was doing and sure enough, the next, he's trending, he's trending on Twitter. Like, because everyone's going, oh my God, Logan Paul, what a fucking idiot. And then Logan.

• 51:01Michael Malice?

  He trolled everyone. I, you made me, oh, you made me, you made me not hate Logan Paul with just that one anecdote.

• 51:06Chris Williamson?

  Dude, he's, he's really operating very, very cleverly. And then he, I think a couple of days or a couple of weeks later, he tweeted the backend of his YouTube studio ad revenue for what he'd seen changing his channel from doing that and was like, how's this for finance news for you?

• 51:29Michael Malice?

  Wow, okay, I'm impressed.

• 51:31Chris Williamson?

  He really blew me away by that. Yeah, proper, proper fucking good guy. I've just remembered, you disagree with one of my videos.

• 51:40Michael Malice?

  Oh, yes. You had this video where you are advising people that we all desperately want to be, we aren't normal, but we want to be normal, right? And I think the vast majority of people do not have any independent thought whatsoever. And many of them resent the very idea of independent thought and individuality.

• 52:02Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 52:03Michael Malice?

  Oh, okay. We're on the same page.

• 52:05Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't think that that's wrong. I think what I get worried about, and this is speaking from personal experience, is individuals that dilute down their own unique offering that they have, the compilation of

• 52:19Michael Malice?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:20Chris Williamson?

  Skills, life experience, background, odd left field thought. And they choose acceptability over honesty because they want to be well liked. And there's that quote from my friend George McGill, who says, "I'm astounded by how many people want to be exceptional in life, but also want to be well liked and normal. By definition, being normal requires you to regress to the mean. Ordinary people, ordinary people get ordinary results, extraordinary people get extraordinary results. And I think a lot more people become normies through the diluting down and the nerfing of the corners and the edges of what makes them interesting, because they're scared of not being accepted.

• 53:05Michael Malice?

  Well, that's, that's something that is an existential nightmare. And I think that's something, thankfully, that's decreasing. Because the more that there's people like Rogan and all these other types who are encouraging people to find their own path. And I think now being different in a genuine way, like, you know, like I have this guy who I exchanged things with, he's a metalworker, you know, he sent me this worry coin, I carry around with me. He's, you know, like people doing cool, awesome things. I'm not saying he's a freak, but he's not normal. The more of that there is, I think in high school, you know, back in the day, there would be, it's a lot easier to isolate and marginalize that person.

• 53:50Michael Malice?

  But now with the internet, it's very, it's much, much, much easier for that person to create an audience. And to have people drawn to him. So that pressure, which may historically have been the case because you're going to have to work for a company, is really, thankfully, a bygone thing. And my audience certainly is very, I'm very, very opposed to normalcy and this idea that we should strive to normalcy. And, and so I, I think, I, I think that's very sad. I, I think a lot of things also happen is when people are young and their parents are forcing them. Uh, you know, like I, I tell kids, I go, look, you want to be an author, right? Go to any, and you tell your parents you're going to be an author.

• 54:34Michael Malice?

  They're going to yell at you and blah, blah, blah, and you can't make a living and so on and so forth. And it's extremely hard, there's no question. But I said, go to any bookstore, right? Look around, look at all those shitty, shitty books. That could be you. You could be that mediocre author. But when you put in those terms, right away, it's like, oh, this is feasible. Right? So a lot of times we have this idea that to be kind of exceptional, you have to be Einstein or you have to be Rembrandt. It's like, no, no, no, that shitty author is also has a weird job and is exceptional. And maybe you're not going to get even to that level, but I promise you by the time you're 30, 40, if you haven't tried, you will regret it for the rest of your life. And if you tried and failed, you still wouldn't care.

• 55:17Michael Malice?

  Because you shot for it and you're like, I wrote a book, it didn't get published, but you know, I learned a lot from the experience. Everyone who's a, this is such a cliche, but people haven't gotten through their head. There's the seen and the unseen. Every single person who's accomplished has an entire storage case full of failures. But you're not going to see that because that's not what reaches the public consciousness. So it's, it's like, yeah, I, I promise you, I've got three books on my computer that never got published. That's okay. So, uh, you need, you need to understand that. It's, it's not a failure. It's, it's just a learning process. And the other thing is you keep knocking on doors. Eventually one's going to open, it becomes math. It's not even a question of your talent. It's just a question of your stamina.

• 55:58Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, there's a quote from Naval Ravikant that I've been throwing around a lot recently. And it is, it's far easier to achieve your material desires than it is to renounce them. And I really love that. And I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. And it kind of touches on what you're talking about there, that some people may choose either through fear of failure or through mindfulness practice and internal work to transcend their desires and say, I don't need the car. I don't need to be the author. I am enough as I am. And it leads people, going back to what we said before, it leads people into this kind of apathetic,

• 56:41Chris Williamson?

  no requirement to push myself, like they would be in cuddle club. They would be, that is cuddle club. But the alternative thing to realize, and this is the same, this is my excuse for why I train on a morning. And I want to hear your thoughts about this.

• 56:56Chris Williamson?

  If you go out and you do the thing and tick the box, you can still transcend it. You can still transcend needing the fast car, but it is significantly easier to transcend needing the fast car from the driver's seat. And you also get the benefit that by pushing yourself forward by that inevitably, I'm not one for objective measures of success or quantifiable metrics of happiness and all that sort of stuff like I'm not. But you can't deny the fact that those things are society saying to you, you are producing something of value. You are producing something which is so worthwhile that we are choosing to pay you for it. Fucking give the money to charity, like you can do, or give the, you know, just give the car away, give the free clothes away, do whatever you want.

• 57:39Chris Williamson?

  But there's no reason not to expect more or the best that you can from yourself. And it comes back to what you said earlier on about learning when you're being strict enough to continue disciplining yourself, that you can achieve more and soft enough to give yourself a break to allow you to not go so far that you, that you then snap.

• 58:00Chris Williamson?

  And the reason that I train, the reason I train on a morning is, I think. There is an inherent satisfaction in knowing that you have completed a training session and it resets every night when you go to sleep. So if you spend your entire day knowing that you've got to train at eight P M. At night, that's an entire day with an open loop of anxiety saying, I fucking got to try, still got to train. Still got to try. I'm going to train eight o'clock, got to train. Whereas if you finished your training session by twelve midday, you're like, oh. Rest of the day's mine. I've already got, I've already got my training out of the way because it is a, a groundhog day. That resets every single midnight or whenever you go to sleep and you get to tick that box.

• 58:37Michael Malice?

  I, I don't, I, I am not a good person to talk to about this because I am psychotically disciplined. And I have been for a long time. So I am so strict with my schedule. I train at night because I don't like it when the gym is busy. So my gym is twenty four hours. I would go at eleven midnight. I go to bed at two in the morning every night. Wake up at eleven in the morning. So if I woke up and went to the gym, I would, I would resent it. For me, it's relaxing to end on that. And it's also like, I've been, I went too often. So my buddy's like, five days a week is plenty. So I had to force myself to take a, an extra rest day and only, and because I was doing six.

• 59:23Michael Malice?

  So, but I, I, I don't know that I'm wired that way. I think if I got my work done in the morning, in the morning. Then I would feel antsy that I have fourteen hours to fill.

• 59:38Michael Malice?

  So I don't know. I think it also depends on how much of output we have and how much input we have, right? Because I've got like three jobs and so on and so forth. So if I only had the working out, that might be a situation where I would be like, I want to do it in the first thing because then I know. If I'm not unemployed, I'm not going to worry about hitting the phone and not getting the callbacks because I know I did something for the day. But since I will have enough on my plate, whether I go to the gym or not regardless, that will take care of that part of my brain, which otherwise would be screaming, it's gonna be wasted today, it's gonna be wasted today, it's gonna be wasted today. You're watching too much, you know, stupid videos on YouTube.

• 1:00:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I wonder whether that's perhaps a little bit of me getting easy wins in earlier on, because I tend to work like that. My morning routine is like ten wins by nine AM or ten AM, like a ton of things. So I'll have gone for a walk, journaled, done breathwork, meditated, done my spinal rehab, read, cooked and prepped my food for the day, and maybe done something else, like by nine thirty or ten AM. And that's just me perhaps still trying to build up that level of self-confidence and kind of belief in my own worth to get the day going real hard, you know,

• 1:00:56Chris Williamson?

  like kind of set off in a high gear type thing and get moving. So yeah, it's an interesting one, man. How have you been finding training from home and stuff like that?

• 1:01:07Michael Malice?

  So I, I gotta tell you, I do not take it for granted having like a decent audience of quality people. I think I'm very blessed to have this. And I was going absolutely crazy not having access to gym, because this is very important for me for mental health. And I was on a cut and I was reaching, I was at my peak a few years ago, I fell away because my trainer vanished. And now I was getting back to that point. And having that just abruptly stopped, it was, it was really freaking me out really badly. I mean, I went to the park here at ten o'clock, you know, but you can only do so many pull-ups and dips in that park, whatever. And I had a fan, who she's in Florida, Phoebe, God bless you.

• 1:01:52Michael Malice?

  God bless you so much. She goes, here's the, the key is in the lockbox outside my house. Here's the code. I called her while I was in her house. I did her dishes. I, you know, I watered her plants. I was glad to do it. She gave me, she had a pair of thirty pound barbells and a sixty-five pound kettlebell. Between that, since I'm, I'm kind of leaning, in a very lean place. It's fine. It's not ideal, but it's certainly psychologically, it's fine and physically, you know, in a great place. So having that is very, very, very relaxing in that part of the brain. It's like you're wasting time or you're, we all have, we have this, I, I don't

• 1:02:35Michael Malice?

  know if you do, cause you've been, I mean, this has been something, part of your life for a long time. I think a lot of people who, from working out as a part of their life, have this idea that your body is a series of balloons. And if you stop working out for like a month, you're going to be back where you started and like years will go away. Now that's not how it works at all, but emotionally, that's what your brain is telling you. And there's nothing you can do to tell it otherwise until you go back and are like, oh, I dropped five pounds at my bench. Like, who cares?

• 1:03:06Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, man. I, I, I couldn't agree more. One of the reasons that I'm so happy, Aleco is a Swedish company and obviously, I don't know whether you know, but Sweden are essentially just going about their business as normal.

• 1:03:15Michael Malice?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:16Chris Williamson?

  Bars and restaurants and shit are open. So you can order kit from them. So I ordered, I've got some stuff off them. Very fortunately, just before lockdown started, we got Watt Bike, which is like an exercise, really sophisticated exercise bike, and some other bits and pieces. One housemate's a physio and the other housemate's a PT. So like, I, you know, I'm essentially in a gym. I'm in a gym.

• 1:03:36Michael Malice?

  Yeah. I was gonna order weights, but they were sold out everywhere here.

• 1:03:40Chris Williamson?

  You know what's sold out at the moment in the UK? Hair clippers.

• 1:03:44Michael Malice?

  Oh.

• 1:03:44Chris Williamson?

  I can't get a fucking, I can't get hair clippers to save my life.

• 1:03:48Michael Malice?

  I, I am going, I've, like every 1981 haircut, I've been going, I had it down. I had it, like the guy from The Damned, I had Duran Duran. I, I mean, I'm like, all right, I had this streak in my hair, cause I did this Tulsi Gabbard look. You guys probably in the UK don't know her, when I was in Dave Rubin. And I thought it was gonna grow out in one session. It does not. It takes forever for a streak to go out. And we were gonna dye it back, but then hair, the hair, all the hairstylists are closed by law.

• 1:04:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:15Michael Malice?

  So now it's getting longer than it's ever been in my life. I found this, I didn't know this, those round combs, I guess girls know this, they straighten your hair when you comb it out enough. So my hair's wavy and now I can do things with it. I'm like, all right, it's gonna look crazy. I mean,

• 1:04:31Chris Williamson?

  You know what I would love? I would absolutely adore to see you with a top knot.

• 1:04:36Michael Malice?

  A man bun?

• 1:04:37Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:04:38Michael Malice?

  Oh, God, no. Oh, God, no. Oh, God, it's a nightmare of all nightmares.

• 1:04:41Chris Williamson?

  Bro.

• 1:04:42Michael Malice?

  Nightmare of all nightmares.

• 1:04:43Chris Williamson?

  It would look so sick. So here's a thing for you, the listeners.

• 1:04:48Michael Malice?

  Sick as in the sense that I should put that.

• 1:04:50Chris Williamson?

  It would look, dude, you would get so much poon, like just bare poon.

• 1:04:55Michael Malice?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Chris Williamson?

  We, the OG Modern Wisdom listeners will remember this. So for pretty much the entire first year that we were doing this podcast, Johnny, who is Youssef's business partner, one of the other regular co-hosts, we convinced him that a topknot was a good look. And he grew his hair for well over six months and kept on shaving the sides. And we were like, dude, it's going to be awesome. And I still, to this day, I still genuinely think, and this is, it goes back to the weird thing, right? So Johnny has this very oxymoronic personality makeup. He's a chartered accountant who left a very corporate job to start his own fitness business online, which is incredibly successful. He still loves spreadsheets. He's kind of always

• 1:05:40Chris Williamson?

  dresses in Hollister, Abercrombie, lots of navy, nice shirts, Ralph Lauren shirts, you know, just kind of a bit, a little bit preppy.

• 1:05:47Michael Malice?

  Horrible.

• 1:05:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you're a hipster.

• 1:05:50Michael Malice?

  Yes.

• 1:05:50Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I know. Kind of, kind of preppy, very, very clean cut, always well shaven, but can deadlift 312 kilos.

• 1:05:59Michael Malice?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:06:00Chris Williamson?

  And is a freak powerlifter. He still holds the northern deadlift record. So he's unbelievable powerlifter, ridiculous quality. And I'm like, there's just one more thing. And I just wanted the topknot, the man bun, to just set him off as like a barbell samurai. And I want, I want you, I want, I want topknot, I want topknot malice.

• 1:06:21Michael Malice?

  I'm far more of a ninja than samurai.

• 1:06:23Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, that's true.

• 1:06:25Michael Malice?

  And it will never, ever.

• 1:06:29Michael Malice?

  Ever. My, my, my buddy, who you reminded me a lot of, I'm like, why am I getting on so well with this guy, Chris? I'm like, oh, my very, very good friend, John Durant, who I edited his book on the paleo, called the paleo manifesto. You and him are very similar in many ways and both very, very white. Um, and he had one for a long time and it worked for him because he had this whole caveman look. Um, but I, oh my God, the, the idea, oh my God, I can't, I, I'm just getting tingled, just disturbed thinking about it. Although I could pull it off. I could pull off

• 1:07:00Chris Williamson?

  a lot. You could kill it. Especially when you've got that with like your, your like old school, old school jeans from like the seventies or the cords that have like got all of the things, the pleats washed down or whatever they're called.

• 1:07:13Michael Malice?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:14Chris Williamson?

  Dude, I love that. I love it so much.

• 1:07:17Michael Malice?

  Yeah, maybe next year.

• 1:07:19Chris Williamson?

  I know. Look, Michael, man, we've, we've made it. We made it all the way through. We did Brian Rose. We did, we did coronavirus. We did your training. Um, what are you, what are you doing for shows now? People want to like watch you consistently. Where can they go?

• 1:07:33Michael Malice?

  So me and this guy, Dave Smith, he's a very failed comedian. He also has a show on Gas Digital where my show, Your Welcome is on. So we've been doing crossover episodes because our audiences overlap a lot. So by having it like having these bro outs, by having it me on Tuesday and then him on Thursday and then picking up, having this ongoing conversation is giving our audiences a sense of continuity and a sense of like, okay, so that's kind of what we've been

• 1:08:01Michael Malice?

  doing now. And it's really had a very positive response. So if they want to watch me chat with one of my buds and with you, I mean, and if this gives people some semblance of normalcy or normality or happiness, I'm glad to do it.

• 1:08:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, man. I couldn't agree more. Michael Malice on Twitter, of course, going, who have you, what have you done recently? Final thing, what's been your favorite tweet that you've put out recently?

• 1:08:24Michael Malice?

  If the corporate press had been as worried about China as they'd been about Russia, we'd all be in a lot better place.

• 1:08:33Chris Williamson?

  That's a mic drop. That is.

• 1:08:35Michael Malice?

  It's true.

• 1:08:35Chris Williamson?

  You're totally right. You're totally right. And that is a whole new, that is a whole new podcast now that we need to go into it.

• 1:08:41Michael Malice?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:42Chris Williamson?

  To go through that at the very, very end. Look, Michael, man, thank you so much, dude.

• 1:08:46Michael Malice?

  Talk soon, buddy.

• 1:08:47Chris Williamson?

  Pleasure. Pleasure. See you later on.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

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