Why Would Anyone Want to Appease Hitler?

It seems ridiculously irresponsible with the benefit of hindsight, but the concept of giving Hitler everything he wanted was the policy among the UK and France as a way to keep the world from sliding into a second world war. Turns out it didn’t work. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:42Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:51Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck, and we're just goose stepping to Jerry's orders like usual here on Stuff You Should Know. No, no, no.

• 2:03Josh Clark?

  Thank you. I'm glad you cleared that up for the new listeners who are like, oh, these guys are Nazis. I hadn't realized.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  No, this is, I really enjoyed studying this one because I, as you know, am not the biggest student of war. So I never like sat around and watched the History Channel and this one is very much a History Channel type of episode. So I feel like I have a much better understanding of the lead up to World War II. And also, it's amazing how much this reflects modern times and what's going on with Russia and Ukraine.

• 2:35Josh Clark?

  For real, for real.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  I kept going like, oh, oh, oh.

• 2:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, there's a very clear line you can draw between what the Allies did to appease Hitler and what a lot of people are concerned that the West is doing to appease Putin right now. And you can also see though, I think there's another lesson to be learned too, where once you kind of understand what the Allies did pre-World War II and why they were trying to appease Hitler, which in retrospect, from our position here in history, seems like the dumbest, most cowardly thing you could have done. If you understand what their actual reasoning was for that, and also that they didn't have the benefit of hindsight.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:13Josh Clark?

  Then you can kind of understand a little more like what a weird position we're in right now, you know, or why people would even consider doing that to Putin now.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So I guess broadly, we should just say that appeasement was an official policy leading up to World War, or you know, they didn't know there was going to be a World War II, but looking back, once again, leading up to World War II, that the Western Allies took were, in a nutshell, they were basically like, you know what? Let's sort of let Germany, and we need to point out, we're gonna, over and over, that they did not know Hitler was the madman we know him now, but.

• 3:50Josh Clark?

  No, they mistook him terribly.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were like, let's let Germany, I think Hitler just wants to kind of get Germany back on footing after World War I and after the Treaty of Versailles kind of wrecked Germany and we need a strong Germany in Europe and like, let's give him what he wants and he says he'll stop there and we believe him.

• 4:09Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And like you said, they took Hitler to be just like any other statesman leading a European power, which was that he was a patrician colonizer who at the end of the day answered to the aristocracy of his country. And that really he was more a threat to. Other people, lesser people throughout the world, who whose lands he wanted to turn into colonies. And we just needed to bring him into the normal European way of doing things. And Germany will be back on its feet again. That was the kind of the darker explanation of appeasement. Another explanation was they'd just been through World War I.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:47Josh Clark?

  A dozen years before, when all this really kind of started. And no one was in the mood for a second world war. So appeasement was the official policy by the UK and France, and then some of their supporters over time, that said, if we give you the stuff you're asking for now, we're hoping that eventually you're going to reach your limit. You're going to get what you wanted, and you're just going to be calm. And everything's going to be cool from that point on. We won't have to get in your way militarily. Thus, we'll avoid a war. So let's try this instead. So ultimately, it was a way to prevent World War II. That was the entire point of appeasement, really, from the outset.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, because, I mean, at the time, like you said, after World War I, none of these countries, what would end up being the Western Allies, were in a great position. They were still trying to build up armaments, some slower than others. Germany wasn't in a great position. So it's kind of interesting. At the end, we're going to go over a couple of like, alternate histories of different texts that could have played out, or different plans that they could have taken. And who knows how it would have worked out. But I guess we should start with the Treaty of Versailles, right?

• 5:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  So this was after World War I, and the Treaty of Versailles came along and was signed. And it really pounded Germany. And some historians even say, like, it went too far, as far as being punitive. Germany had to reduce their army from 1.9 million troops to 100,000. They had to get rid of most of their navy. And they had to hand back territories that it had taken over the last 100 years, and then pay hundreds of billion dollars in reparations.

• 6:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so not only was it like financially strapping them. Remember, this is the time when German hyperreinflation happened during the Weimar Republic, which is between World War I and II. This is why. And then also, it was like demoralizing. It was meant to to basically smack Germany down and be like, you're lesser now. We're punishing you. And so I saw a quote, I I forgot to send it to you. I don't remember who said it, but essentially, they said, this is not a treaty. This is an armistice for 20 years. And there was somebody who looked at this in 1919, and 20 years later, World War II broke out because it was so punitive. There was no way that the German people were not going to eventually rise up in retaliation for this, and we were going to have a Second World War. So a lot of people point to that treaty as being the thing that

• 7:15Josh Clark?

  didn't necessarily directly lead to World War II, but it laid all the groundwork to create a populace that was in a vengeful mood that would be willing to support somebody like with such nationalistic fervor as Hitler.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's what Hitler was cooking up from the beginning. He was basically like, hey, we we want to get Germany back together. We need to get all of our rightful lands, basically where any Germanic peoples are and where anybody is speaking German. And also, as we'll see, help out any German minorities to our east, you know, which is Russia and the Soviet Union at the time, because they're going to come into play. And he whipped up this this nationalistic fervor that everyone in Germany got behind. And that's, you know, what eventually would, of course, lead to World War II. But I guess we should take it sort of chronologically, because there were a series of appeasements starting in 1935, kind of one after the other, until finally, you know, they could take no more.

• 8:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And just bear this in mind while while you're hearing all of these like high points of how we moved toward World War II, thanks to Germany. Hitler followed the this awareness or this belief by the UK and France that what Germany really wanted to do was climb back out of from under the Treaty of Versailles and just get back to where they were before. So Hitler followed that to a T. All of his demands, all of the aggressions that he made were based on the Treaty of Versailles. And yet, in retrospect, now we realize now these were, he was always going to try to go way further than that. He was just playing upon the suppositions of the Allies at the time.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Oh, God. He, I mean, after studying all this stuff, he he played them for such suckers.

• 8:59Josh Clark?

  He did, and what makes it a little worse, though, too, is he wrote all this stuff out in 1925. In my comp, it's all laid out. That push to the east you're talking about, where he wants to make more room for German nationals that are outside of Germany, the Lebensström, which basically says, "We're going to Russia eventually." Like, they knew this for 10 years before he really became a huge problem, and everybody just ignored it.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh yeah. He's like, "I wrote a book about it, and I guess you guys don't read German, because I basically said what I was gonna do."

• 9:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  All right, so 1935 was the first sort of wave of appeasement, and this was the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. Basically where Britain said, "You know what? We know that you're breaking the Treaty of Versailles, because we know you're building up your navy, even though you were supposed to scuttle your navy. And go ahead and build a new fleet." A lot of people saw that as just sort of an initial surrender to what Hitler wanted, but Britain knew that they were cheating already. They had MI6 on the ground, specifically an agent named Karl Kruger in their U-boat design office, which was, you know, a secret program at the time. And they thought, "Hey, maybe we can get them to build fewer U-boats by endorsing them building these really big, expensive battleships.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  It costs a lot of money and a lot of raw materials, and it'll kind of kill their U-boat program." It didn't exactly work. They were supposed to build 72 submarines and ended up building 54, but I don't know if they were like, "Hooray" about that.

• 10:31Josh Clark?

  So, yeah, that in and of itself is a problem. Like, this grand policy of, like, making them spend resources, it really didn't lead to that big of a reduction. But geopolitically speaking, it basically said the UK was endorsing now Germany breaking the Treaty of Versailles by agreeing with them that Germany could build its navy back up.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:52Josh Clark?

  There was also another thing that had nothing to do with Germany, but really played into this later on. France was led by a couple of different appeasement, pro appeasement prime ministers or premieres during this time. And they were good friends with Italy. And Italy invaded Ethiopia, as you'll remember from our Holly Salassi episode

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:15Josh Clark?

  in 1935. And France said, you know what? Go with it. Italy, we don't care about that. Just promise us that if things go down, if the S hits the fan, or le S hits le fan, you will be on our side against Germany. And Italy said, yes, definitely. You got it 100%. And then they just went and ravaged Ethiopia.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. And we all know how that turned out in the end.

• 11:38Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  So in 1936, that was, those first two were 35. In 1936, Germans west, the Rhineland, they wanted to re-militarize that area. That again, went against the Treaty of Versailles, because that was supposed to be a buffer zone, the western part of Germany. And they had, there was a chance here to forcefully respond here, because they had Czechoslovakia and Romania saying like, hey, you know, we got your back if you want to do anything. But France and Britain basically did nothing.

• 12:11Josh Clark?

  No. Again, France has kind of said, nah, we're kind of busy with our own stuff, as we'll see, right? And a lot of people also, and who were heading the politics in Western Europe at the time, were like, yeah, good on them, Germany. They got that taken away from them in the Treaty of Versailles. Let them have it back. That's Germany, you know?

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:29Josh Clark?

  There was also the Anschluss, which was a different category after the re-militarization of the Rhineland, because this was where they annexed Austria. Austria was a sovereign nation. It was not a part of Germany before World War I. As far as I know, please, God, don't let me be wrong about that one. And Germany just said, Austria, you're now part of Germany. You guys are Germanic by heritage. So you're just part of Germany now. And the world just turned their heads and said, yeah, I guess that's fine, too. You know, Germany's doing its Germanic thing.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, we're going to talk a little bit about public opinion here and there. But at the time, this was March 1938, and this was Neville Chamberlain, SPM in Britain. And the Brits didn't want to get involved. There was about a 25% in a survey

• 13:19Speaker 02

  were in favor of, you know, a determined policy. So, you know, I guess that's not aggression, but determined.

• 13:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, most people were were in favor of continuing to just kind of go along with Germany restabilizing or regaining what it had before the Treaty of Versailles. Because again, this is what people are thinking. But if you'll notice, we've we started to pick up speed a little bit here, like bigger things are starting to happen. That was March of 1938, when they took over Austria. And then in September, Hitler had been basically making speeches where he was saying, hey, there's this part, he called it the rump of Czechoslovakia, that butts up against Germany. That's really actually Germany. It's called the Sudetenland. And it's just basically this mountain range. Czechoslovakia doesn't care about it, but we care about it because we're reuniting Germany again. So we want that. And we're going to go take it, whether you want us to or not.

• 14:11Josh Clark?

  And Neville Chamberlain and PM Edouard de Dalier all ran to Munich to meet with Hitler on his own ground and said, here, what do you want? Well, let's make a deal.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. And Hitler said, well, I've told you what I want. I want the this northwestern part of Czechoslovakia. We call it the Sudetenland. And they said, all right, well, you can have that, but you got to promise, like, you know, put your hand on this Bible, raise your right hand. And you got to promise you're not going to do anything else in Czechoslovakia. That's it. It stops there. And this is where things are really, I feel like echoing what's going on in Ukraine. Like, hey Putin, you know, eventually you're gonna get this, this stuff that you've, you've conquered, but you're gonna stop there, right? Uh, and that's what happened back then. The Czechs were an ally to France and Britain at the time. They were not even invited to the summit, again, echoing things that we see going on today.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  And at the time, there were even some German generals that thought, like, early on in, in September of 38, when this happened, they were like, hey, listen, if the Allies get behind Czechoslovakia here, we could be in trouble. So there was some kind of bluff calling happening, basically, but, uh, Britain kind of said, no, let's let them do this, and they steered France to do the same and pressured Czechoslovakia to submit. And that's what happened.

• 15:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and Czechoslovakia was like, fine, they can have the Sudetenland. We weren't even invited, but we'll go along with it because our ally, France, is telling us to. Keep in mind, an ally is not just like, we're friends with you, we think you're pretty cool. And ally means like, you usually have some sort of documents or treaties saying like, if somebody tries to take part of your country, we're going to come back you up militarily. And when the chips came down, France said no, because Great Britain was steering them. And one other point about all this that's kind of hidden in there, Great Britain was in a position to steer France, because you could make an argument that it was still the world's superpower. The, the, the empire was on the wane, but still by the 30s, 25% of the global population

• 16:14Josh Clark?

  and 20% of the Earth's landmass were under British control. So Britain was in a global position to basically set the, the, the stage of how to deal with Germany. And the UK decided appeasement was the way to go, so everybody else kind of followed along.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, all right, so that's September of 38. They, they give them the, you know, they say you can have this portion of Czechoslovakia as long as you promise not to go in. Seven months later, in March of 1939, he went into the rest of Czechoslovakia, just like he wrote in his book, basically. So, you know, Hitler reneged on that promise, of course, to, to leave Czechoslovakia, the rest of it alone. And that was like, uh, the real decisive moment, because I think, I feel like that's when Hitler was probably like, man, these guys are, are cowards. And they're letting me do whatever I want. And very quickly thereafter, that was March of 39. September of 39 is when he invaded Poland and then it was on.

• 17:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and even before he invaded Poland, once he reneged on the Czechoslovakian deal, the Munich Agreement, he showed the world, like you, like I'll tell you whatever you want to hear, I'm not going to back it up. So he immediately destroyed the policy of appeasement. Like appeasement policy had about as much traction as like yesterday's non-winning Lotto ticket that you'd find in the gutter, covered in gum, maybe a little bit of blood from somewhere.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:38Josh Clark?

  Like that was appeasement after the invasion of Czechoslovakia. I got there eventually.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you know, Poland was invaded and that's really what kicked off like the beginnings of World War II. Hitler tried to provoke war with Poland by saying, hey, I want Danzig, not the band.

• 17:57Josh Clark?

  No, but still.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  The city of Danzig and Prussian territory that was granted to you in 1919 after World War I, that we feel like is ours. And Britain and France, you know, they made guarantees to Poland at the time, but in August, it was pretty shocking at the time, the Nazis and the Soviets signed a pact to partition Poland out and basically said, you come in from the east, we'll come in from the west and Poland is ours. And two days later, Britain and France declared war on Germany.

• 18:26Josh Clark?

  Yep. And I think that is a great place to stop.

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• 22:13Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, where we left off, Hitler had just invaded Poland, and the UK and France declared war on Germany.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 22:24Josh Clark?

  Took a lot. What that showed everybody was that appeasement was dead. The whole policy had just shifted now to either containment or out-and-out war now that they had declared war. But this was, like, there was a lot of reasons for appeasement to have been tried. We talked about some of them, but a big one was, the UK was really holding on to that world's greatest superpower status as hard as they could, and another world war put that in, like, real jeopardy. It put him in a precarious position.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they were, you know, everybody was trying to rearm themselves, like I said earlier, since World War I, some a little quicker than others. I think the United States, as we'll learn, wasn't making the greatest rearmament effort because Congress was kind of chilling the purse strings back when they could do stuff like that. But the writing was on the wall for the UK. They were like, "We're not in any position, even though we're supposedly the world's greatest superpower, to fight Germany, Japan, and Italy all at the same time to prevent them from expanding their territories." Like, that's just not a possibility. And we might have to enter an alliance with the US. If worse comes to worse, we might have to enter into an alliance with the USSR.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  And that's just gonna make them, I mean, that's gonna... lessen their stance and their power worldwide if they have to do stuff like that.

• 23:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and with their prestige or power lessened like on the world stage, that's the kind of thing that can spark decolonization movements. So they were worried about Jamaica, they were worried about India, they were worried about Nigeria. All of a sudden being like, the UK has overextended itself. Now's the time to declare independence from the UK. And not just the prestige that was lost, but more to the point, the resources, the raw materials, all the stuff that Great Britain extracted from these colonies, that would be lost as well. So what Great Britain wanted was no war, please, at least in part to preserve its empire. Other people who were in the British Parliament and government basically said, we're going to have to go to war, it's inevitable.

• 24:36Josh Clark?

  But we're supporting appeasement right now because we need to stall for time to rearm ourselves, like you were saying.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Right, which as we'll see also allowed Germany to do the same. Either through rearmament by building things or by storming Czechoslovakia. And all of a sudden, they had all their stuff. But appeasement was popular for a long time. Throughout most of the 1930s, the public didn't want to go to war. Again, they were shaking off a World War One hangover still. No one wanted to go to a war that was more technologically advanced, like pretty rapidly since the end of World War One. For a second world war, I think in 1937, 62% of British men said they wouldn't volunteer and 78% of women said they would not urge their husbands to go fight.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  And even after the Munich Agreement, when Czechoslovakia was left hanging out to dry, 75% still approved of appeasement in Great Britain.

• 25:36Josh Clark?

  Yes, and so there was like a lot of anti-war anxiety. Apparently, people had died by suicide, there were mental health problems. All of the appeasement, pro appeasement sentiment was also bolstered by The Times. And I believe the BBC too, which portrayed Hitler as a moderate, basically saying like, it could get way worse than this guy. Let's just deal with this guy. And then the reason why this matters is because at the time, Britain had recently enfranchised its women, like more and more people were voting. So the public opinion about stuff mattered more and more to the people calling the shots politically. And we'll also see that also turned. The politicians views against appeasement as public opinion changed on appeasement too.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And you know, there was a string of PMs that were all for it. Neville Chamberlain was the third British PM. He was in there from thirty seven to forty during this time of appeasement. So it wasn't just Chamberlain. I think he's kind of, there's two things I feel like from Great Britain that are remembered is,

• 26:40Speaker 02

  and you know, it depends on how you want to look at it. But I think a lot of people eventually frame Neville Chamberlain as a coward. And Winston Churchill as a hero, because he was one of the only ones that was like,

• 26:53Speaker 02

  this guy Hitler, like, I don't think you guys see the writing on the wall here. He's not gonna stop. And this appeasement thing is no good.

• 26:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he also, I mean, he stood alone, basically, in his party. The conservatives were like, yeah, we're all pro appeasement, at least at the time. So he definitely stood on his own. In France, France also had lost a lot of people and a lot of money in World War One, and was not very eager to do a redo of it. But they were still anti-Germany, like, like France was not a friend of Germany. They did not want to be friends with Germany. Their alliances were against Germany. But ultimately, and this is what's crazy to me, that it was racked by far right and far left internal political conflict at the time?

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, they were kind of in a interstale made almost.

• 27:43Josh Clark?

  Right. And so they were, whether they wanted to be or not, they were fairly drawn into domestic affairs rather than foreign affairs. And it wasn't until Edouard de Lattier, who became prime minister, that they really started to branch back out into foreign affairs. But even then, they were pretty pro appeasement. So they didn't, they didn't really have much of a stomach for going into a Second World War, understandably. But they didn't feel like they were in a place to do anything. So essentially, they just went on the defense. They did not, they weren't going to go into a policy of containment or anything like that.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. As far as the US goes, at the time, we had FDR in there, Roosevelt was in there, and he endorsed appeasement like officially. He endorsed the Munich Agreement. They were into isolationism at the time and trying to stay neutral. And we were also in no position militarily because like I mentioned, we were kind of, you know, we were also depleted by World War I and moving along a little slower than even other eventual allied countries because Congress was kind of pulling those purse strings a little tight as far as building the military back up.

• 28:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I think that you can make a case that any country that was involved in World War I really lost its appetite for war after that, like to an amazing degree.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Understandably.

• 29:01Josh Clark?

  For sure. And then there was another group of pro appeasers who was Britain's aristocracy. And the reason why is because they wanted things to just basically, let's just go back to where we colonized other places and really it's the aristocracy running things and we're all related and I'm your cousin and you're my cousin and we're all three somehow married, but we all run everything, we're all just crazy rich. Let's keep doing that. And they saw Hitler as somebody who could help keep that kind of status quo or get back to that kind of status quo. The group that was opposed to Hitler, though, they were the Soviets and they were communists. And the aristocrats who enjoy wealth inequality

• 29:42Josh Clark?

  do not typically like communism or communists. They wanted to steer Britain away from any kind of alliances with the USSR that could support communists or socialists in Britain and their causes and more toward Hitler because Hitler's policies kind of jobbed with the aristocracy's views a little more.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I mean, they were sort of actively courting one another because they saw Hitler as somebody who could, you know, like you were saying, kind of let them keep their lifestyle in check.

• 30:11Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  And Hitler and Germany did nothing to make them think otherwise. You know, they were playing on the spirits of communism for sure. They're like, you know, you got a lot of dough, you know what happens when communism happens. And that, you know, sent a chill through the British aristocratic scene.

• 30:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah. They were known to say, "Croykey."

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Break time? Or should we go on with Churchill?

• 30:33Josh Clark?

  Give me a break, Chuck. Break me off a piece of that ad break bar.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. We'll be right back.

• 30:53Speaker 02

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• 31:12Josh Clark?

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• 31:29Speaker 02

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• 31:56Josh Clark?

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• 32:14Speaker 02

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• 32:29Josh Clark?

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• 32:41Speaker 02

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• 33:16Speaker 02

  All right, so that might have been the best ad segue ever.

• 33:21Josh Clark?

  With the all right, so?

• 33:23Speaker 02

  I just, I didn't see an allusion to Kit Kat.

• 33:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, gotcha.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  In this episode.

• 33:27Josh Clark?

  Thanks.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  All right, so we mentioned Churchill sort of briefly before. Churchill was, like we said, one of the sort of few outspoken dudes that was like, no, we can't do this. He visited Germany in 1932 and he was like, these Nazis mean business. I don't think you guys understand what's happening here. And he said, if we concede to Hitler, things are going to get much worse. We have to rearm ourselves, you know, quicker and get those factories to work. But you know, that's the kind of thing that can wreck an economy. So that's if people are wondering like, well, why didn't they all just rearm as fast as they could?

• 34:01Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  It's because it costs a ton of money and people. So it's not great for the economy to have to build that war machine back up. So, but he was pounding the drum to do so.

• 34:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and his whole take on Hitler, including the Munich Agreement, which he called a total and unmitigated defeat. This is where the Allies went to Hitler and said, we'll let you have part of Czechoslovakia. Just don't invade the rest of Czechoslovakia. He, like when Neville Chamberlain came back to the UK, he was like basically waiving the agreement and saying he had negotiated a peace for our time. That essentially like aggression from Germany was done. We're all going to live in peace again. And it lasted a year before we were at war with Germany. So it made Chamberlain look pretty bad. It made Churchill look like very foresightful and exactly the kind of guy that you would want to fight Hitler. So essentially after they got rid of Chamberlain, the UK went to Churchill and said, you don't like Hitler.

• 34:55Josh Clark?

  We understand that. We don't like Hitler anymore now, and so you're up.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, a lot of people said that was his aim was to increase his political profile and you know, who knows if that was his aim, but it worked. He took over his PM in 1940 after Chamberlain, like you said, and he wanted, he basically later on was like, hey, if we would have had a policy of deterrence instead of appeasement, we might have prevented this war to begin with. You know, Britain and France should have strengthened our relationship and that was our best hope was maybe to form what he called a grand alliance with the Soviet Union even, even and Eastern European countries.

• 35:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  But the Soviet, you know, there was a lot of distrust of the Soviet Union, especially, you know, like we mentioned, the aristocracy who wanted to hang on to their, their, their pounds. And of course, what Stalin was doing, you know, they didn't trust that either. So he was not going to get support from the British or the French to, to sort of be tougher.

• 35:57Josh Clark?

  No, but as we'll see later, it was not a bad plan, could have changed things dramatically.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:03Josh Clark?

  One of the other things that made Churchill such a strident voice about opposing Germany is that he had intelligence, I guess as a minister of parliament, he had men on the inside.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:15Josh Clark?

  And he had an intelligence report from somebody in Germany saying that Germany had a mean spirit of revenge, brutality amounting in many cases to bestiality and complete ruthlessness. And this is at a time when Chamberlain and Deladier are basically saying like Hitler's our friend, we just need to keep, keep negotiating with him. He's getting reports about how they're just brutal and ruthless and those panned out to be true.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. We mentioned FDR in the US earlier that officially they supported appeasement because they would not, you know, sign any kind of formal agreement with the UK or France. But on the inside, the administration was definitely trying to kind of say, hey, UK, you gotta, you gotta change your stance here. You gotta like Hitler means business and only your military can, can deter this guy at this point. But on the outside, they were, you know, officially like, hey, we're not involved. Appeasement sounds pretty good to us. And like we said, you know, the, the people of Britain were largely for it. And most of the people were, didn't want to go back to war until the Kristallnacht.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  On November 1938, that's when Germany, you know, for the first time attacked its own citizens and destroyed Jewish businesses and synagogues. Killed about a hundred Jews and arrested about a hundred thousand. And that's when the, the, the public at large, kind of all around the world was like, oh, okay. That's what this guy's about. This cannot stand.

• 37:44Josh Clark?

  Right. And remember now with, with the UK having all of these new voters, their opinion mattered. So that helped change things too.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wish I knew how to say too late in German.

• 37:58Josh Clark?

  You don't? You didn't learn that in high school?

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Hmm, no, I was trying to think if I could.

• 38:02Josh Clark?

  Can you sound it out letter by letter?

• 38:05Speaker 02

  No.

• 38:05Josh Clark?

  Oh, wait, you'd have to know the word to do that.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  No, I remember what Knutson the Mouse did in, at Hans Peter's house. Cause I remember reading that chapter over and over and over.

• 38:15Josh Clark?

  What, what did he do?

• 38:18Speaker 02

  I really don't remember, but the, my friend Rad and the, the cartographer in Montana, he'll be the only person in the world that gets that joke. Because it was just a lot of stuff about Knutson the Mouse and, and his owner, Hans Peter. He was, you know, that German textbook stuff.

• 38:34Josh Clark?

  Okay. Was that like the, the German high school classes equivalent of the little prince in the French class?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:41Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. I understand exactly what you mean.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's fun on a big show like this to make a joke for one human. So I hope Brad listens.

• 38:48Josh Clark?

  Why not?

• 38:50Josh Clark?

  So there's one other group, Chuck, that we didn't talk about what they thought of appeasement. And that was the Nazis themselves and Hitler. And it's.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  They loved it.

• 38:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, probably not a big surprise. They saw it as a clear sign of weakness by the world's leading powers. That they, that Hitler in Germany could do whatever it's, it wanted. And France and, and the UK were just gonna bow their knees and their heads in front of Hitler. And the, the people of the, of Germany itself also picked up on this too. Like Hitler had, remember he had taken power. It wasn't like, you know, he wasn't fully supported yet. There was like a courtship period that was still, things were up in the air. But when he came back and said, I got back the Rhineland. I got back Sudetenland. I got us Austria. What's next, you know?

• 39:41Josh Clark?

  And I did it all without a single shot fired. Like these guys just gave it back to us because that's what they think of Germany with me leading it. The German people just went nuts and Hitler was, was the guy. He was der Führer. That was the day Hitler became der Führer.

• 39:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  That's it, man. You just walked off of a History Channel show. You dropped, you dropped the mic in the sound studio and left. One thing we can say is that appeasement did achieve the aim of rearmament. Um, that was kind of one of the goals. Like we've said a few times is that, you know, everyone was trying to put this off so they could build back up their, their war stock or whatever. And that happened. Uh, Britain spent less on arms than Germany did from 1935 to 1939, but, uh, they had the highest proportion of their GDP devoted to building up their armaments, uh, in 1940. And, um, in 1930s, they rebuilt the navy to the, you know, once again, the world's strongest navy. Shout out to British Seapower, one of my favorite bands. And early on, you know, they had outpaced Germany.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Um, and you know, we're going to talk about the alternate histories here shortly. Like what, if they had have done something, they're in a pretty good position. They, uh, between Britain and France, their coalition had a five to one armament superiority over Germany early on. And France, uh, the fall of France in 1940, apparently, and I don't know enough about this stuff, but from what I've read, it wasn't because they were unprepared and didn't have enough bombs and things. Apparently it was about poor leadership at that point.

• 41:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I, I couldn't find enough about that myself to speak confidently on it. All I know is that France did not put up much of a fight from what I remember from the history books.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:21Josh Clark?

  Well, let's talk about that, Chuck. Let's talk about those alternate histories, especially with the view of armament. Because Neville Chamberlain, when he, he basically couldn't get a coalition government together anymore after Hitler reneged on the Munich Agreement. And he was replaced, like we saw with, by Winston Churchill in 1940. That same year, he died of cancer after Chamberlain was removed. But he spent that time basically saying like, I bought us time, appeasement bought us time to rearm. And he's right, like you showed, like Britain did have a chance to rearm. But there is a really critical window that we know about now. Where that policy of appeasing in order to rearm didn't make sense.

• 42:06Josh Clark?

  And that was about 1938 to 1939. And the reason was is because France and the UK were rearming at a rate close to Germany. And we're actually even overtaking it a little bit. And they could have put up a fight against Germany and probably won, especially together, combining their stuff. In 1938, by 1939, things had changed. Germany had gone even further overdrive into war production. But more to the point, they had taken over Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia had all sorts of munitions factories. Czechoslovakia had all sorts of people you could conscript into free labor, AKA slave labor. There's all sorts of stuff that happened when they took over Czechoslovakia.

• 42:49Josh Clark?

  And it tipped the balance whoop way up in favor of Germany's military after that. So that period, 1938 to 1939, appeasement did the exact opposite. And it made the war way worse than it would have been had the UK and France said, this is as good as it's gonna get. We gotta go now.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and you know, it also possibly made the war worse. And a lot of people say it definitely made the war worse than it would have been. Because in 1940, Britain's holding out against Germany and they're both seeking resources all around the world. That you needed to get to win a world war. And that just expanded the war, basically. You made it to a global thing, a much larger thing than it might have been otherwise. Deterrence might have avoided all of that if they would have formed a grand alliance and bonded their powers early on. You know, because I mentioned earlier, there were even generals within Germany's kind of, it's kind of a bluffing game like, hey, if these guys get together, like, we're not the best position right now.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  And so while they were buying time, it helped Germany increase their war chest and yeah, that's, the rest is history.

• 43:58Josh Clark?

  Right. But speaking of alternate histories, there were other options that the UK had on the table. And now, speaking about them, like, in retrospect, it's, it's mind boggling to even think. But the first one's a little more understandable or palatable. Had the UK simply just not declared war after Germany invaded Poland? That was an option to them on the table. They didn't have to do it. France had already set the precedent of not backing up Czechoslovakia when it was taken over by Germany. The UK could have just not done that, too. And one thing that could have backed this up, that could have supported, actually, that, that position in the UK to just sit back and let it play out on its own, is that it

• 44:40Josh Clark?

  was inevitable, essentially, for the USSR and Germany to clash because of that Leibniz policy, that policy of the East actually belongs to Germany and we're going to go take it, right?

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, that played out by, eventually with Operation Barbarossa, with the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941. Some people say like, and, you know, of course, this sounds completely ridiculous to think of now with hindsight, but some people are like, you know, the UK could have allied with Germany early on. They, I mean, I think one of the reasons they didn't, it's not because they knew this Hitler guy was a madman, again, that came later, it was because of the colonies that you were talking about that they had all over the world. Germany also had colonies all over the world. And they had a conflict. I think Britain wasn't gonna say, here, why don't you, why don't you take our African colonies?

• 45:38Speaker 02

  And Germany definitely didn't like the way Britain looked at, at Race.

• 45:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  They had a pretty different idea on that. And so if they had any kind of alliance, they would have had surrendered their liberal imperialism. And they really weakened their status as an international superpower.

• 45:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they would have had to fall in line with basically the way Germany viewed the world. Yeah, just wrapping your mind around that is not easy to do, like the UK doing that. And Kyle, who's our man on the inside in the UK.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, he's our MI6 agent.

• 46:11Josh Clark?

  Exactly. He pointed something out that I thought was pretty interesting, too. They basically said the fact that Kristallnacht and the news of what Germany had done to its own Jewish citizens.

• 46:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:21Josh Clark?

  How that turned British public opinion just basically showed like even if Britain did try to ally with Germany, that was never going to work out. That was probably the least likely of all of it. And then also Chuck, you can't help us being Americans to wonder, could America have sat out World War II?

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, we declared war after Pearl Harbor on Imperial Japan. That followed or following that, Germany declared war on us in December 1941. And, you know, maybe we could have evaded getting involved in the European theater. We definitely got mired in the Pacific Theater with Japan. We weren't really, it's not like the US wasn't on the Nazis radar, but we weren't really a big part of their foreign policy in the 1930s yet.

• 47:08Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Because again, isolationism was kind of our bag at the time. Our army wasn't very big. We had in 1940, we had five divisions compared to Germany's 141. And Congress definitely was not going to like get behind Roosevelt entering the European theater at the time. So there were a lot of reasons why it looked like the US maybe could have avoided that mess.

• 47:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but historians say, probably we're going to get drawn in one way or another. Because like you said, Germany did declare war on the US essentially to show Japan like, hey, we're in this together. You guys just handle the US. So that was going to happen whether we tried to stay out of it or not. And then he also knew that we were a threat and that we would eventually be online armament wise to really make a significant contribution. He predicted by 1942. I think we started before then. And then even more than that, Roosevelt was already giving permission for US battleships to shoot and destroy U-boats that were operating in the Atlantic because they had started targeting

• 48:16Josh Clark?

  American shipping and Hitler was not very happy about that. So the US was probably not going to be able to stay out of World War II.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 48:25Josh Clark?

  The alternate history, I guess that gets me Chuck is was the earliest when Germany remilitarized the Rhineland in flagrant violation of the Treaty of Versailles. Had the UK and France intervened, this is 1936. I mean, imagine if they had just done something then and contained Hitler then. And remember, there was this courtship period or whatever where, you know, Germany hadn't really wasn't really sure about Hitler at the time. Had he been undermined that thoroughly on the international stage, who knows what would have happened to him as the leader of Germany, right? And they could have done something because at the time, France had 100,000 troops

• 49:06Josh Clark?

  near the border with Rhineland. Germany only moved 35,000 troops into the area. France could have easily repelled that and been like, it's your move, Germany. What are you gonna do? And Germany might not have done anything. And even if Hitler had done something, it probably would have been against the advice of his military advisors. So now he would have personally been taking Germany to war. That's a lot to stake your reputation on. And that one thing in 1936 could have completely avoided the death of tens of millions of people. They didn't do it because of internal left-right politics.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  Wow. Oh, man. That was that was good stuff. I like this is my favorite kind of stuff you should know when 45 minutes later, like I know. Probably 100% more than I knew before about World War II.

• 50:00Josh Clark?

  Very nice, Chuck. Yeah, I didn't know almost any of this either. I love that stuff, too. And I know we just talked about the US and the UK and France's alternate history. But if you want to come up with an alternate history for World War II in your country, let us know. Hit the history textbooks and come back with what you got. And we'd love to get that kind of thing. In the meantime, while we're waiting for your listener mail, we'll listen to Chuck with a new listener mail.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, somebody just sends us "Man in the High Castle."

• 50:32Josh Clark?

  No plagiarism, please.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Which I never saw or read.

• 50:36Josh Clark?

  I didn't either, but it's supposed to be pretty good.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe I'll check that out at some point. It sounds like it'd be right up my alley.

• 50:41Josh Clark?

  It's just too depressing for me, that kind of stuff. That and like things that normalize billionaires. Can't take it anymore.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Like Dee Snider. All right, what is this? This is from Chris. Oh, yeah, this is just a nice thing. "Hey, guys, wanted to write in for a while now. First of all, I always appreciate the wide variety of topics you cover, especially the ones born of your own natural curiosities. As a former middle school science teacher, I saw my primary role as instilling curiosity in my students and modeling for them how to chase those curiosities. And your approach really resonates with me. But the one thing I didn't pay enough attention to back when I was in the classroom was the art of communication that you guys display in every episode. If I still had a classroom full of students, I would use your show not only for the content, but also for lessons in respectful communication. So much discourse we hear today is loud and angry

• 51:32Speaker 02

  and doesn't give people space to express themselves without being interrupted, mocked, or refuted. Somehow, you guys seamlessly pass a baton of communication to one another without speaking over one another, contradicting each other's incomplete thoughts, or negotiating the communication flow through general awkwardness. Even when one of you have a follow-up comment that may provide a differing or correcting perspective, you always give space for the other to finish their thought before weighing in. And the follow-up comments are thoughtfully delivered and received."

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Thanks so much for all you do. I appreciate your authentic, respectful delivery of interesting content. You guys keep my brain awake and smiling. And that is from Chris, Christine Sewell in Bloomington, Illinois. And Chris, one of the reasons is because we almost always agree with each other on this stuff.

• 52:19Josh Clark?

  I disagree.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  So it makes it kind of easy.

• 52:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, for sure. And that's something that still kind of surprises me to this day, where like just our common view is so in step with one another. Where I mean, like, there's just so many things that are different about it. It's like our personalities are pretty different.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Wildly different.

• 52:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I would say wildly. Sure, I'll go with that. But when you come down to like, what do you think about this? What do you think about this? What do you think about that? It's generally in the same, not even ballpark, in the same hot dog stand of the same ballpark.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think the show would have worked for so long if you and I just were sort of at odds over every little thing. And I think that stuff that Christine is talking about too is so much of media today is set up to do that because that gets ratings, I guess. So they'll pit people that they know have differing viewpoints and put them down in chairs next to each other. And that's just like, bleh.

• 53:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but it's like The Simpsons taught us, if you just don't look, it'll eventually go away. So you don't like that kind of media, just don't watch it.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, agreed.

• 53:22Josh Clark?

  Well, thank you, Chris. That was really, really nice. We love hearing that kind of stuff. That's just a really kind email and we thank you for it. If you want to be like Chris and send us a kind email, we are always open to receiving one of those. You can send it off to [email protected].

• 53:40Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 53:56Josh Clark?

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• 55:29Speaker 05

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• 55:30Speaker 02

  My fresh detector.

• 55:31Speaker 05

  Uh, your what?

• 55:32Speaker 02

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• 55:33Speaker 05

  What is it detecting?

• 55:35Speaker 02

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• 55:37Speaker 05

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• 55:43Speaker 02

  Apparently, we celebrate.

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• 55:55Speaker 00

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