Meta Orion Headset, MKBHD's Panels Disaster, Volta Energy

TBPN.com is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Eight Sleep - https://eightsleep.com/tbpn Wander - https://wander.com/tbpn Public - https://public.com AdQuick - https://adquick.com Bezel - https://getbezel.com Polymarket - https://polymarket.com Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://youtube.com/@technologybrotherspod?si=lpk53xTE9WBEcIjV

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00John Coogan?

  Welcome to Technology Brothers, the most profitable podcast in the world.

• 0:05Jordi Hays?

  For those that don't know, John Fio, world-class ideas guy and entrepreneur. Usually they go hand in hand and he's very humble about it. I don't know if even you know this, but the guy's climbed like six out of the tallest 10 peaks in the world. Never once posted a picture about it.

• 0:25John Coogan?

  They're called the 14ers.

• 0:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the 14ers, right.

• 0:30Jordi Hays?

  Never once posted a picture about it, hardly has told anyone and Volta, he did it all without oxygen, right? Which is like, they say that can't be done. So the guy's a physical specimen, but you know, there's gotta be some edge, right? Volta is that edge. So Volta's a new concept. We were able to get some because we're also ideas guys.

• 0:55John Coogan?

  Of course.

• 0:56Jordi Hays?

  And you know, wanted to be able to provide some feedback. So Volta's a new concept. They're making fresh energy drinks. I think you've probably had a Red Bull or a Monster or Celsius in your day. That stuff got made, you know, months, if not potentially years ago, right? Sometimes you crack open a Red Bull and you're like, this is a vintage bull.

• 1:21Jordi Hays?

  Actually, at Senra's event this weekend, I figured out a pretty interesting arb that I'll be taking advantage of next year. Red Bull's in this retreat center that he was hosting it at were $2. But if I walk down the street to the gas station, they're $6, right? So they called out the Senra arb.

• 1:39John Coogan?

  Interesting. Did you get to try one of David Senra's Jaco Go in the cherry vanilla flavor that he loves so much?

• 1:46Jordi Hays?

  I think he was randomly drinking those.

• 1:48John Coogan?

  It's not random.

• 1:49Jordi Hays?

  No, not random.

• 1:50John Coogan?

  He is obsessed with that.

• 1:51Jordi Hays?

  No, I know, but he was like the only one that had that.

• 1:54John Coogan?

  No, he has a, at his events, he has a dedicated fridge with just Jaco Go.

• 1:59Jordi Hays?

  Jaco guy.

• 2:00John Coogan?

  He's just the man who loves Jaco.

• 2:04John Coogan?

  It's incredible.

• 2:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, whenever I'm hanging out with him, I drink one in solidarity.

• 2:10Jordi Hays?

  In solidarity, yeah. You feel like Jaco's in the room.

• 2:13John Coogan?

  Going forward, it might be Volta.

• 2:14Jordi Hays?

  Some competition. So the idea with Volta is to make fresh energy drinks, right? Fresh is almost always better. So in this case, I'm taking some. Sparkling Yuzu, one of my favorite little cute little beverages, straight from Japan. And we're gonna mix the Volta right in there. It's got, I won't give you the laundry list of ingredients, but caffeine, L-theanine, and magnesium, as well as liposomal nano-mon molecules, which effectively delivers what Theo will say is all-day dynamic energy, right? So like, energy that's shifting based on what you're sort of embarking on, whether you're climbing a mountain or you're battling with a spreadsheet, right?

• 2:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:01Jordi Hays?

  So, let's give this a cool shot. I have no idea how to dose this, so I'm gonna guess that...

• 3:10Jordi Hays?

  You know, it's almost impossible to say, was that 15 milliliters?

• 3:17John Coogan?

  32 per bottle?

• 3:20Jordi Hays?

  So I don't know if this is...

• 3:23John Coogan?

  Oh wow, look at that. There we go.

• 3:25Jordi Hays?

  I don't know if this is 200mg of caffeine or like 500, but either way, we'll find out.

• 3:36John Coogan?

  Pretty good.

• 3:37Jordi Hays?

  Pretty good, it's tasty. I think the Yuzu's doing a little heavy lifting, to kind of mask the...

• 3:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:43Jordi Hays?

  But...

• 3:44John Coogan?

  The nutrient cocktail?

• 3:46Jordi Hays?

  The nutrient cocktail.

• 3:48John Coogan?

  The scientific formula.

• 3:49Jordi Hays?

  It definitely...

• 3:52Jordi Hays?

  It definitely has a flavor that you won't forget, you know?

• 3:55John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 3:56Jordi Hays?

  Like, you could be on top of Mount Kilimanjaro in like 12 years, and you're on your last breath, and somebody squirts a little bit of this in your mouth, and you're sort of like, you're sort of like jolted up. Bolted alive.

• 4:14Jordi Hays?

  And make it back to tell the tale. But anyways, I'm sure XL and Volta will be doing, you know, numerous...

• 4:20John Coogan?

  Many collaborations in the future.

• 4:22Jordi Hays?

  Joint ventures in the future.

• 4:23John Coogan?

  Of course, of course. Yeah, we need a, we need a good energy drink sponsor for the pod.

• 4:30Jordi Hays?

  This was unsponsored, by the way, which is purely an idea guy supporting another idea guy.

• 4:35John Coogan?

  Of course.

• 4:37Jordi Hays?

  Let's get into the news. Is there anything you want to cover from the Journal? Or should we just go straight into the timeline?

• 4:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, we can go into the top story.

• 4:50John Coogan?

  I think we got to talk about Meadows Orion glasses.

• 4:55Jordi Hays?

  Sorry, I'm just reading this. The stolen dollar.

• 4:59John Coogan?

  Stolen dollar. Well, I mean, that honestly relates to what we're talking about. Like, I've been sick this week and

• 5:07Jordi Hays?

  Same.

• 5:07John Coogan?

  I was thinking, you know, there's a lot that you can throw at it. Caffeine, nicotine, but there's kind of a new theory that if you're sick, maybe cocaine is the thing that

• 5:22Jordi Hays?

  Right.

• 5:23John Coogan?

  will get you back on your game.

• 5:24Jordi Hays?

  Right, right.

• 5:25John Coogan?

  And so

• 5:26Jordi Hays?

  I've heard that.

• 5:27John Coogan?

  I don't have easy access to it. I'm not demoing it today, but I was wondering if that would make me feel better. If I had a really important podcast, should I be doing coke? I tend to think I would feel terrible if I was on coke while I was trying to podcast while sick.

• 5:46Jordi Hays?

  I'm sure people have done that.

• 5:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:48Jordi Hays?

  I'm sure even people have called into CNBC at different points for like, you know, post earnings to just kind of, you know, chit chat and been on it. But given that you are on track to be a public company CEO,

• 6:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:03Jordi Hays?

  sometime within the next few years, handful of years, it's hard to say. You have to be more market dependent.

• 6:12Jordi Hays?

  You don't want that track record with the SEC, right? Like, you don't want

• 6:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Jordi Hays?

  you don't want

• 6:18Jordi Hays?

  you don't want that attached to your good name, right?

• 6:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, it is interesting. I have a friend who is a product manager at a big tech company and kind of lost in making, you know,

• 6:32John Coogan?

  A couple hundred thousand dollars every month, just doing kind of nothing. But a little bit lost and was just thinking about how to kind of get back in tune. A lot of people are doing the ayahuasca retreats, these are really popular.

• 6:46Jordi Hays?

  Right.

• 6:48John Coogan?

  But he was kind of worried about like, you know, you go to this country and, you know, maybe you get your brain rearranged and you come back as a different person.

• 6:55Jordi Hays?

  Right.

• 6:55John Coogan?

  And so he actually went on a different type of retreat, he went on a cocaine retreat.

• 7:00Jordi Hays?

  Right.

• 7:00John Coogan?

  Same concept, like you're still traveling to a foreign country, there's a shaman there, but instead of administering ayahuasca in heroic doses, you're taking cocaine.

• 7:11Jordi Hays?

  Right.

• 7:11John Coogan?

  And so, and instead of like sitting there, you know, all strung out, all like messed up, you know.

• 7:18Jordi Hays?

  Getting turbo fried.

• 7:19John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 7:20Jordi Hays?

  Turbo locked in.

• 7:21John Coogan?

  You're locked in, you're locked in. And so they, you know, there's like cubicles with monitors and Bloomberg terminals.

• 7:27Jordi Hays?

  Is there like, do they put like a, there's no beds, right? It's just like a pillow under the desk.

• 7:33John Coogan?

  Exactly, exactly. It, I mean, it's a small classroom of like an average Wall Street, like offices, actually.

• 7:39Jordi Hays?

  And that's in Peru, Chile?

• 7:40John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:41Jordi Hays?

  Okay.

• 7:42John Coogan?

  So you fly down there to go on the cocaine retreat and, and just kind of lock in and then you come back refreshed and ready to kick ass.

• 7:49Jordi Hays?

  Right.

• 7:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I can see that. We've entered back into the age of stimulants, like the, the 2010s, like things were so good. It was about how do I dumb down, like this life is so good.

• 8:08John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:08Jordi Hays?

  How do I, we're coming out of the great recession, how, you know, everybody's, you know, becoming a software engineer, making six figures overnight.

• 8:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:19Jordi Hays?

  People were trying to sort of like dumb that down, whereas now people are realizing that. Great, you know, men and great women, great people need to be on, it's sort of your duty to be on some selection of stimulants, whether it's Volta, Exel, you know, a nice cup of coffee and some of the harder stuff if you're in, if you're in, you know, parts of the world that allow it, right? It's sort of, it's almost like your civic duty. Like, if all of Peru was on cocaine, you know, daily or a few times weekly, it's hard to see how that wouldn't have a positive effect on the economy.

• 9:01John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:02Jordi Hays?

  Which ultimately has a trickle down effect.

• 9:05John Coogan?

  The fans really do want people to be on coke. I feel like the memes on Twitter are, people are projecting, like, a lot.

• 9:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 9:14John Coogan?

  And they're starting to search for cocaine where there's maybe just somebody who had a Celsius, realistically.

• 9:20Jordi Hays?

  Right.

• 9:21John Coogan?

  But, it is, it is funny. I don't know, I don't know if it would, I don't know how much it would be a performance enhancing. I, isn't it hard to stay jacked if you're on coke all day? I feel like cocaine makes you skinny.

• 9:35Jordi Hays?

  Uh, I'm sure, I'm sure it kills appetite, a lot of stimulants do, because you just have better things to do than eat, right? You're locked in.

• 9:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, how are you gonna be drinking?

• 9:46Jordi Hays?

  You don't like lock, like, I've gotta be fasted for forty-eight to seventy-two hours to lock in eating a meal.

• 9:56John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:57Jordi Hays?

  You don't lock in when you're eating a meal. Even eating a nice meal, in my opinion, you're sort of just like, you know, good chit-chat, right?

• 10:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, the, the weight loss thing was funny, I think I texted you this the other day, I hadn't, at Senna's event, I hadn't been on, I don't have a scale at home, I hadn't been on a scale in like three months.

• 10:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 10:22Jordi Hays?

  And I step on a scale and I was like, I honestly laughed, because I, in three months since, since having, my daughter.

• 10:36Jordi Hays?

  My wife had stopped, um, she stopped cooking. She's taking care of the baby. She's breastfeeding, like it's literally almost a 24/7 thing. So stopped cooking and so that period of time, I also was extremely locked in. And the combination of being locked in and Sarah not coming in being like, hey, like you haven't eaten in six hours, like eight hours. Like here's some food. So just every single day, 24 hour fast and dropped 12 pounds in three months, like completely unintentionally. Not even like less.

• 11:07John Coogan?

  That's a pound a week.

• 11:08Jordi Hays?

  Not even less body fat, just less muscle, just less everything.

• 11:13John Coogan?

  Well, it's good to go into the winter bulk.

• 11:15Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, right. Yeah, somebody said to me like, dude, what happened to you? You like, you look super skinny and I said, I hadn't seen a scale, so I didn't know. Um, and I was just kind of offended. And then the truth was presented right before my eyes.

• 11:33Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, we gotta talk about, we gotta talk about Zuck and I feel like you should probably launch into a, to at least a 10 minute monologue on launching products.

• 11:44John Coogan?

  Oh man, there's so many things here. Yeah, it's, it's such a, it's such an interesting story. I mean, people are, so yeah, Meta launched these Orion augmented reality glasses. They're, look just like normal sunglasses or, or normal glasses, but um, they project holograms over on top of the lenses. So uh, instead of doing the pass through, like what the Apple Vision Pro does, where you're using cameras and then re-projecting that onto a screen. You can just see the real world, so the, the resolution's essentially infinite. It's the same thing that the, uh, the, the Microsoft HoloLens did and that one company that didn't do very well, Meta.

• 12:26Jordi Hays?

  I mean, there's been so many cracks of this.

• 12:28John Coogan?

  Magic Leap was really, was really struggling.

• 12:29Jordi Hays?

  There's Google Glass too.

• 12:30John Coogan?

  Google Glass was a little bit of that. It was kind of just like a screen in the corner, but yeah.

• 12:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 12:34John Coogan?

  But there's just like a million different weird things going on with this where the the reaction from everyone that Meta invited to their like developer day to experience this. Everyone was like so excited and was like, this is amazing. This is incredible. But if you look back at what happened when all of the same influencers got tours of the Apple Vision Pro, it was the same thing. They were all like, this is incredible. This is finally the breakthrough. I'm definitely gonna daily drive this. And I always think back to, you you know the Pepsi challenge? You remember this? Like Pepsi versus Coke, this whole thing, this whole ad campaign they did where they would just

• 13:16John Coogan?

  go on the street and have people try Pepsi and try Coke and people would overwhelmingly select Pepsi. And the and the trick was that Pepsi was sweeter and so they give you a one ounce shot. And over one ounce, people would prefer Pepsi, but over sixteen ounces, people would prefer Coke.

• 13:35Jordi Hays?

  Interesting.

• 13:35John Coogan?

  Because the sweetness would actually get to them. And so, of course, like the market is actually roughly fifty fifty between Coke and Pepsi, but over one ounce, people overwhelmingly prefer Pepsi. And so, I I'm just always worried with these VR demos that they they set you up for an amazing twenty minute experience and they don't let anyone try one for a month straight. Because, I mean, Ben Thompson was-

• 14:01Jordi Hays?

  He would kill the product before it actually got released. If Ben Thompson wore it for a month and was like-

• 14:05John Coogan?

  And was like, actually, I churned, right? But but you give it to him for thirty minutes and he's like, this is incredible, right? And so, I'm always I'm always hesitant about that until, like, at this point, if they want me to be stoked, I need to see them give the product to someone for a month straight and then I need to know were they still using it? Were they still daily driving it after a month?

• 14:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, cuz I had the, I got the Meta-

• 14:32John Coogan?

  I got some right here.

• 14:33Jordi Hays?

  Oh, nice.

• 14:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, I ordered them. I have a bunch of thoughts on this one.

• 14:35Jordi Hays?

  I got these and I was like, these are cool, mostly for the video capture stuff. And I took them out of the box, put them on, set them up, went and drove my Ferrari, posted a video on social media and within like thirty minutes, a local mom was commenting, like, very angrily saying like-

• 15:02Jordi Hays?

  Don't ever drive like this around our house, like stuff like that.

• 15:06John Coogan?

  Really?

• 15:06Jordi Hays?

  Ended up starting a bunch of drama and that was the last time I used my Meta Ray-Ban. So I had sort of a bad.

• 15:11John Coogan?

  Wait, wait, wait. Did she see the video?

• 15:13Jordi Hays?

  She saw the video.

• 15:14John Coogan?

  Cause you posted that online?

• 15:16Jordi Hays?

  Odometer, speedometer.

• 15:20John Coogan?

  Oh wow.

• 15:21Jordi Hays?

  I thought it was, I thought it was fairly controlled. Everybody has their own, everybody has their own perception of speed, right?

• 15:28John Coogan?

  Yeah. I mean, you told me that you.

• 15:30Jordi Hays?

  I haven't, I haven't used them since then.

• 15:31John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. You told me that you use them for a drive. So I actually, I kind of like unboxed these while I was driving and just threw them on and was hoping that I could just like put them on, press a button and just start recording. But you can't. You have to set them up. And this is something that always frustrates me about these Meta products is that they just assume that you're like the biggest Facebook fanboy and that you have like, oh yeah, I'd love to log in and stuff.

• 15:53Jordi Hays?

  I know what my Facebook, yeah.

• 15:55John Coogan?

  Yeah. It's like, let's be realistic. Not everyone wants to log in with these things. They should let you just turn them on, take a picture and then say, hey, don't you want to log in to get your photos?

• 16:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 16:06John Coogan?

  Push it down the, down the road a little bit.

• 16:08Jordi Hays?

  I don't know who these, I don't know who that, that recording functionality is for other, other than like the guys on Instagram that are like, hey, what do you do for a living?

• 16:17John Coogan?

  Maybe. I mean, I, I, I'm gonna try and use these around the kids and, and the dogs and stuff and see if that's cool and see if that works. I, I, I think there could be something there where it's like, they are, they really are like as light as just normal wayfarers. So if, if, you know, if you're, if you're going to the beach, why not just have this on there? And I do think there is something legitimate about the, the sunglass and the glasses being like the next computing platform, the next like major consumer hardware category. Because if you look at the, the, the evolution, a lot of times the devices that have gotten really popular have been just like iterations of things that we've already come to expect and love.

• 17:01John Coogan?

  Like OraRing is, I think, doing 500 million dollars a year.

• 17:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:04John Coogan?

  And it's like, why is that doing so well and the pendant companies aren't doing that well? At least not yet. I think it's because people just wear rings, so they just understand it. An Apple watch, it's like, I already wear a watch, so like, I'll just throw on a watch, I get it. And then like, a lot of the-

• 17:18Jordi Hays?

  The question is, it'll be interesting to see with the glasses market, because I am convinced, I think we're both convinced that it is the next, or at least a complementary computing platform to your other devices. The question is, does it become like the smartwatch market, where there's just sort of like the dominant fang players? And then kind of no one else? Like, you still like, you know, where, you know, it's not like an actual replacement for what a lot of people use like watches for?

• 17:46John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Jordi Hays?

  It'll be interesting to see if companies like Meta continue to integrate with like existing silhouettes, like, you know, Ray-Bans?

• 17:55John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 17:55Jordi Hays?

  Or if they go into the Orion route, and it's just like, no, we're the platform, we're the device, we're the brand, this is the only thing that matters? Because like, I can't see myself wearing that frame, you know, the Orion frame, like, ever. But if you went to, I would start to get a lot-

• 18:13John Coogan?

  Why are you pronouncing it that way? It's Orion.

• 18:15Jordi Hays?

  Orion, Orion.

• 18:16John Coogan?

  Orion?

• 18:16Jordi Hays?

  Orion.

• 18:17John Coogan?

  Orion?

• 18:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, Orion, Orion's belt.

• 18:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, Orion's belt.

• 18:23Jordi Hays?

  Sorry, sorry.

• 18:24John Coogan?

  Well, the, I mean, the frames were like, kind of like, built up to be like a dev kit, basically. Like, they're not shipping that yet. And they will wind up shipping in like a Ray-Ban frame. I mean, they have a pretty significant partnership with the company behind Ray-Bans.

• 18:37Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 18:38John Coogan?

  Which is like, this incredible monopoly, it's like a hundred billion dollar business.

• 18:40Jordi Hays?

  Great company. Wait, so imagine the feeling of ripping a Volta, putting in an Excel, and then putting on Aviator versions of the Orion glasses? And just locking in to a day at work like this? And you're just at work, you're just firing on all cylinders, typing on a holographic keyboard, just firing off emails?

• 19:03John Coogan?

  Three years away.

• 19:04Jordi Hays?

  Three years out.

• 19:05John Coogan?

  Basically, yeah, I think so.

• 19:08Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, if we got invited to the demo day, it could have been last week or two weeks ago.

• 19:13John Coogan?

  It is, yeah, there's so many. The Luxottica CEO like reached out to Zuck apparently to be like, hey, we should do a deal.

• 19:23Jordi Hays?

  This was years ago.

• 19:25John Coogan?

  Years ago. It was kind of like, oh, like have somebody on my team take this. And like, somebody on his team was like, no, like you need to talk to this guy.

• 19:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 19:31John Coogan?

  That's how they did the deal. So they just re-upped. I think they have a 10-year deal. It's exclusive. And Luxottica is the like the.

• 19:38Jordi Hays?

  Soul hardware, like.

• 19:39John Coogan?

  Well, so they're completely vertically integrated. So they they own Ray-Ban. They bought, I think they bought Ray-Ban in the 90s and then they jacked it the price and stopped selling it in gas stations. It became this like luxury brand. They bought a whole bunch of other, I think they own Persol and a few other brands. But then they own everything from the manufacturing to like.

• 19:59Jordi Hays?

  The lenses.

• 20:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, how they grind the lenses, all that. But then they also own the retail distribution. They own LensCrafters. And so they have more, I think there's more LensCrafters stores than there are Apple stores. And so and Meta, I think they bought 5% of Luxottica. And so you could see a world where Meta winds up buying Luxottica. Luxottica also owns Supreme. And so there's this theory that like, oh, Zuck loves hypebeast culture, so he's like.

• 20:27Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah, that's just a long con.

• 20:28John Coogan?

  Clearly does love fashion. And so there is something.

• 20:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, he's working. I didn't realize he's working on his clothes, his new like kind of cringe clothing is with Mike Amiri, I think the designer. Very like sort of hypebeasty, like you'll, if you listen to a rap song, every 10th song will talk about like Amiri jeans or whatever. But I think so that the interesting thing, Meta versus Apple with the next-gen computing platform, and let's just ignore Snap because they're going to continue to drive returns for their employees and no one else. But which is kind of antithetical to everything that we believe in.

• 21:10John Coogan?

  Yes, exactly.

• 21:10Jordi Hays?

  But so this is the ultimate matchup of founder mode versus manager mode, right? Which is like Tim Apple, you know, building,

• 21:22Jordi Hays?

  you know, Apple headsets, like trying to just sort of like iterate towards something great like. Who knows would Steve Jobs have put out that product? Or would that have been an internal product for another three years before you could get to this platform?

• 21:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:38Jordi Hays?

  Right? And Zuck, who's basically been his probably only insecurity besides that he's just deep down always going to be a nerd, is that he doesn't own the platform.

• 21:54John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:54Jordi Hays?

  Right? Like, that's what keeps him up at night. So that's like a, you know, basically like multi-decade effort to own the next computing platform and own the hardware.

• 22:04John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. And I think glasses are a reasonable bet.

• 22:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 22:09John Coogan?

  The problem is, is that the, there's just this weird, like, kind of, I don't know, user hostility when you set up one of these products. It just doesn't feel like I'm in, it feels like I'm in conflict. It feels like I'm sparring with Meta when I set something up like this.

• 22:28Jordi Hays?

  He just wants to make it-

• 22:29John Coogan?

  It asked me to allow notifications on my phone for this thing twice, just before I can take a picture. It's like, I remember I was testing the Meta Quest, I think it was the second one, the Meta Quest 2. And I was like, I just want to go back to the time when you could take an N64, put in a cartridge, turn it on, and it would go blink, and then you'd just be playing Mario.

• 22:54Jordi Hays?

  Fully, basically analog.

• 22:55John Coogan?

  Basically immediately.

• 22:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 22:59John Coogan?

  The, with the Quest onboarding, even after you've all set it up, you have to log in. There's six different logins now because I have a Facebook password, a Meta password, an Instagram password, an Oculus password, a PIN-

• 23:14Jordi Hays?

  Wait, what if the Meta Ray-Bans is just his way of trying to get to convince Wall Street that people still use Facebook? Because like, I had to like, I had to remember what my Facebook password is or whatever, just to like, get it working.

• 23:29John Coogan?

  If he can sell every Facebook user a $300 pair of glasses, I think he's going to be doing very well. But yeah.

• 23:38John Coogan?

  But there was just this like, it was like the, the, the demand for like, it has to be social features. There ha- you have to be logged in, you have to be in their store, you have to be doing all this stuff. It just like took the surprise and delight completely out of it.

• 23:52Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 23:52John Coogan?

  And, and I feel like with, with, with this, I mean, it wasn't as bad, but it was still like, like you could just tell. It, it, it was almost like I'm, I'm interacting with two devices that are like divorced mom and dad.

• 24:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:07John Coogan?

  Right? Because it's like the, the, the Apple phone is like trying to kill this as hard as possible. So it's like, hey, just so you know, they're gonna track you. So do you wanna track or no? Do you wanna track? Oh, they're gonna want your contacts. So like, do you want contacts or not? Like, be careful. Like, this company's trying to fuck you.

• 24:22Jordi Hays?

  And meanwhile-

• 24:23John Coogan?

  Be very careful. And these guys are like, well, we don't want you to use the phone at all, but like also you have to install this app to use our thing. So we wanna like get our hooks in there, but then it's just so adversarial. And like, I just feel like I'm like torn between this and being a fuck this.

• 24:36Jordi Hays?

  The core issue is that the Meta PM who is making 200K a month.

• 24:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:41Jordi Hays?

  The day be- the day before one of their most important sprints, he got like a 50% sleep score. So he was all thrown off.

• 24:50John Coogan?

  Probably.

• 24:51Jordi Hays?

  And he comes into work, he's pissed off, right? He's only had seven hours of sleep. He starts chewing out the whole engineering team, chewing out legal.

• 24:59John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:59Jordi Hays?

  And everybody's just kinda like, oh, like, you know, let's just ship it, you know? Meanwhile, you know, with, with an Apple product, like the designer is just like meditating for like 12 hours. And it's just like, let's just, uh, don't eat, just remove that part of the flow. And then let's remove that part of the flow.

• 25:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 25:17Jordi Hays?

  Let's just keep, let's just keep removing until you can just swim through at the user.

• 25:23John Coogan?

  I mean, it's just, uh, there's just so much like, I, I, maybe my expectations are too high for these companies, but it's like, you're a trillion dollar company. Why do I have to do a day one update?

• 25:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 25:34John Coogan?

  Like, I had to install a software update just to use it the first time. It's like, just ship it with something that works basic and then let me upgrade later, like once you've converted me. And it's not even that, it's not even that like an extended setup process of like two hours is gonna be bad for- For immediate conversion because like I'm gonna get over that. But it's just gonna leave a bad taste in my mouth. Like this product doesn't care about me. I remember one of the most magical things was when the iPhones started shipping and they were fully charged. And now you go and you buy an iPhone and it's fully charged. And so you leave the Apple Store and you're like, wow, this is awesome. It just feels like they went a little bit farther. And that's gotta be a little bit tricky, right?

• 26:11Jordi Hays?

  Apple also improved over time. Like, don't you remember when it was like, you were like, oh, I'm switching phones. Like, it's gonna be such a huge hassle. And now it's like, you know, they basically do it in the store.

• 26:20John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:21Jordi Hays?

  The one thing that'll be interesting with with glasses is glasses are always gonna be a fashion statement of sorts. It's literally sitting on your, it's like, it's it's the window to the eyes, right? And not that that doesn't look fantastic, but you probably, if we're wearing glasses all the time, are gonna want to have.

• 26:43John Coogan?

  Is it recording?

• 26:44Jordi Hays?

  It looks, yeah, you are recording right now. No, so I think that it's possible people might have four or five different pairs of glasses. They might have sunglasses, they might have, you know, like.

• 26:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, but I mean, if Meta owns Luxottica.

• 26:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:58John Coogan?

  They're gonna own all of the good brands, basically. But I think Apple would be able to come in. And I mean, that's the big question that a lot of people have is like, okay, so Meta announced this Orion prototype. It costs 10K to produce right now per unit. And it has like, like maybe a two hour battery life. Like, there's a lot of problems that they need to iron out. And so when Ben Thompson pushed Bose, it sounded like 2027, maybe. It's a consumer product. And so the question is like, does Apple have something that's adjacent?

• 27:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. So here's here's my big issue with headsets. And I already have tin foil on the inside of my hat, so I'm all good. But basically.

• 27:43Jordi Hays?

  Last time I checked, deep in the Apple iPhone Terms of Service, there's stuff that literally says like, don't hold this device like up to your head, like, hold it here.

• 27:51John Coogan?

  Really?

• 27:52Jordi Hays?

  Really for health reasons. There is proof that like the radiation, even though it's non-ionizing or whatever that that your phone admits, is not something that you want that close to your body, right? It's why, you know, it's why there's a bunch of brands popping up that are like, wear like EMF-proof underwear. Because if you're putting your, it's a big, big possibility that having your phone next to your reproductive organs could be contributing to the fertility crisis and like other downrange issues. So for me, I'm looking at it as, as what, I don't know if there's anything that will ever be able to mitigate that, right? And so if I'm not comfortable, I never, I haven't taken a phone call with my phone up to my ear.

• 28:37Jordi Hays?

  I'm like, you know, the asshole with.

• 28:41John Coogan?

  Wired headphones?

• 28:42Jordi Hays?

  Wired headphones, or if I'm in a public space, I'll put it on speaker and just keep it quiet. Because I just don't, there's seemingly like unnecessary risk to have your phone like slapped here. So that's my big thing is like, okay, if this is the next computing platform, like, how do we ensure that we all don't get like turbo brain cancer? Then, you know, and that, that feels like a very unanswered question that historically both the cellular networks and consumer product, consumer electronics companies have completely ignored. Except they tend to bury stuff in their terms that say like, don't use this for three hours straight.

• 29:23Jordi Hays?

  Because it like, it will literally like heat up the inside of your, of your brain, like deep into your brain if you just hold it up there.

• 29:33Jordi Hays?

  And so that, again, it's like a big question that I have. And I think it's worth somebody funding like an entire documentary on cell phones. Because there's so much emphasis on how cellular device, like the things that we do on our devices are bad for us. Doom scrolling, you know, the dating apps and things like that. But there's actual like the physical, like, physical potentially risk of the device and constantly being attached to it because we're sort of. Electrical beings that are absorbing a lot of different types of radiation at all times, but you know, basically absorbing really concentrated doses of it can, you

• 30:17Jordi Hays?

  know, is a risk factor.

• 30:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, I think there's, there's definitely something to be said for like, there's just like this generational change of like some sort of pollutant that we find out later. Like in the seventies, it was like lead.

• 30:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and then asbestos.

• 30:31John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, and like lead made everyone, I mean, there's this theory that like lead made everyone insane and like aggressive, and that's why there was like a crime wave and a murder spike. And then it's like, maybe we cut out the lead and we increase the plastics and then everyone gets really docile and doesn't have kids.

• 30:45Jordi Hays?

  Infernal.

• 30:46John Coogan?

  Infernal, and so it's like balancing these toxins over time.

• 30:49Jordi Hays?

  Well, the funny thing with lead is that lead actually stops a lot of electromagnetic radiation. So if you had lead paint, if you had lead paint in your house, you probably wouldn't get cell service.

• 31:00John Coogan?

  Interesting.

• 31:01Jordi Hays?

  And so I think we're actually gonna see a trend back towards using lead paint in bedrooms, because if you want to create an environment in your room that is, you know, doesn't have.

• 31:11John Coogan?

  And he gives other ways to build a Faraday cage.

• 31:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but it's actually pretty efficient to be like, let's just paint all the walls.

• 31:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, but then you get lead poisoning.

• 31:18Jordi Hays?

  I don't know if, I don't know if it's actually been proven that lead from paint, it's like.

• 31:24John Coogan?

  Gets into your.

• 31:25Jordi Hays?

  The whole like, kids are gonna eat the paint chips or whatever, you know?

• 31:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Jordi Hays?

  And there's other ways to do it. You could paint one layer of lead and then paint over it, right?

• 31:34John Coogan?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 31:35Jordi Hays?

  So anyways, I'm gonna get into the lead painting business. We're bringing back lead.

• 31:40John Coogan?

  You gotta get some leaded gasoline.

• 31:43Jordi Hays?

  Oh, consumer electronics are out?

• 31:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, lead gasoline. For some reason, I don't think lead is coming back. I think, I think the answer may be no lead, no plastic.

• 31:51Jordi Hays?

  Well, it's still, isn't it still, isn't it still used in, in X-ray? Like when you're getting an X-ray?

• 31:55John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:56Jordi Hays?

  Don't they give you this lead vest?

• 31:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, like a lead vest.

• 31:58Jordi Hays?

  So lead has never left. It doesn't need to come back.

• 32:00John Coogan?

  It's true.

• 32:01Jordi Hays?

  It's always been, been with us.

• 32:02John Coogan?

  And it is, it is insulated in.

• 32:03Jordi Hays?

  It's the anti here, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of.

• 32:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, people used to chew like pencil lead. Like kids used to be like, you know, nervously chewing a pencil and.

• 32:11Jordi Hays?

  The original Excel. It just gets you more, gets you more angry.

• 32:16John Coogan?

  And like you become a murderer or something.

• 32:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 32:19John Coogan?

  Should we talk about that MKBHD app?

• 32:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 32:24John Coogan?

  I thought it was too cheap.

• 32:26Jordi Hays?

  Too cheap?

• 32:26John Coogan?

  Too cheap. Fifty bucks a year.

• 32:29Jordi Hays?

  For that quality wallpaper?

• 32:31John Coogan?

  You gotta go higher.

• 32:32Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 32:33John Coogan?

  You gotta go higher. No, it's funny, like, I was seriously thinking, like, why is everyone complaining, just don't buy this? You know, like, yeah, it's fifty bucks.

• 32:43Jordi Hays?

  Well, no, this is the thing.

• 32:44John Coogan?

  But it's because he is a critic, and so there's this, like, people, like, criticizing the critic, and that's why they're so excited about it. But did you have a, did you have a hot take about it? It was, it was kind of interesting.

• 32:57Jordi Hays?

  I mean, yeah, here's my thing. Anybody whose job is to criticize is the number one target for all criticism, right? It doesn't matter if you are like a poster who is posting, right? And you just like have hot takes all the time, even hot takes. But I think he's just built up such a reputation of doing takedowns, and usually they're, I think they're very fair for the most part.

• 33:22John Coogan?

  A hundred percent. Like, the, the Fisker Ocean SUV, like, it literally doesn't work anymore.

• 33:27Jordi Hays?

  I think, I think the only criticism is just that it seemed like to be a pretty poorly made app. Like, I don't have any issue with him coming out and, I don't have any issue with him coming out and trying to sell usernames for fifty bucks a month. Or, sorry, not usernames.

• 33:43John Coogan?

  Wallpaper.

• 33:44Jordi Hays?

  Wallpaper. No issue with that at all. It's just like, I don't know, like, have some good taste in, you know, dev shops or partners, right? Like, there's sort of this aesthetic issue with it that I have, which is like, you review technology and you put out a shitty app. It doesn't matter that, I think the products also pretty, like, to me, the product's shitty. I'm never gonna do that. You know, Family Man, we have, there's only one thing that should be on your wallpaper, your wife and children, right?

• 34:11John Coogan?

  Or the office.

• 34:12Jordi Hays?

  Or the office. Yeah, or, or your, your super evil mega corp logo.

• 34:19John Coogan?

  Just remind yourself that.

• 34:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. During the daytime, you know, and then when you get home, swap it back. No, so I just think that I have like sort of a general issue with the aesthetics of being the tech reviewer that puts out a poorly made app, which it was. Like, it got completely torn apart.

• 34:37John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, reverse engineered, everyone's doing everything. And then also just like, the, the, the implementation of the ad flow was just, that is always clunky.

• 34:47Jordi Hays?

  It had an ad?

• 34:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, so basically, you would, you, you install the app. And then you browse for wallpapers and there are some that look nice, like they look fine. You can actually just screenshot them and zoom in. It's very weird because like they have to show them to you. So you can just screenshot them. You don't get the full thing. It only shows you like three quarters. So then you have to zoom in a little bit. But it's fine. It's weird. But the weird thing is that if you want standard definition, which is like low res, which I think is actually HD. So people are weirded out about that because this whole brand is MKB HD, HD, like high definition. And he's selling a standard definition product instead of giving you the high definition and then having

• 35:30John Coogan?

  you upgrade to the 4K version. But if you want the standard definition, you click and you have to watch two ads. And that's why they were asking for location targeting because if you don't have someone's location, the ad rates will plummet. And so you need to know where people are roughly. Just the coarse locations what's important, but they asked for fine grained. So they were, it was kind of like sloppy implementation. But just if you're in an app and an ad pops up, it feels like there's this iOS like widget, basically, that a lot of mobile games use and a lot of just kind of like cheap apps that you download to do like one thing like, oh, like, like, there's the difference between like some

• 36:12John Coogan?

  app that just like puts subtitles at the bottom and like the captions app. The captions app is like venture funded. It has a subscription. It's expensive, but it's the highest quality. And it's like crafts. It's like, it's a beautiful app that works really, really well. I use it all the time. And, and the reason is if they just like popped up an ad, I would be like, oh, this is like so annoying. And it's like this unskippable thing and like the X is in the corner and you gotta go find it and it's all blended in and stuff. And so that, that was just kind of like a, like a mediocre experience. And then, and then I think once people like started digging in, they started digging into every little thing. And they found that like, one of the artists on the app had put up a wallpaper that was just the color orange. And it's like, you don't need to pay for that at all because you can just make that in two seconds in any thing.

• 36:57Jordi Hays?

  Take a picture of an orange and just zoom in.

• 37:00John Coogan?

  Exactly. There's a million different ways to just make your background orange if you want. But yeah.

• 37:04Jordi Hays?

  I think something that's funny is it feels like a very like vintage app. Like this is the kind of like quality and idea that should have dropped the year that the App Store opened.

• 37:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 37:18Jordi Hays?

  In some ways, and they're definitely, yeah, flashlight app. It feels kind of like that. I think the better. MKBHD has done some smart partnerships. I.

• 37:29John Coogan?

  Ridge Wallet.

• 37:30Jordi Hays?

  Ridge Wallet.

• 37:31John Coogan?

  Fantastic.

• 37:32Jordi Hays?

  Close friends with Sean and Connor, the CMO. I think that was like a very smart partnership from both sides. For them to come together and.

• 37:41John Coogan?

  He's a big Eight Sleep advertiser.

• 37:43Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 37:43John Coogan?

  And he does a great job with those.

• 37:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. How can you not, right?

• 37:47John Coogan?

  It's fantastic.

• 37:49Jordi Hays?

  Eight Sleep, if you're listening, sleep on a regular organic cotton mattress. So. We're always open to you, our sleep partners. At the world's most profitable podcast.

• 38:01John Coogan?

  But, but I, I think what, I think what happened with, like, it, it's weird because there, there is a, there is a correct way to introduce a $50 a year subscription wallpaper app. But I think it's the Call of Duty method. Have you ever played any of those games?

• 38:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, of course.

• 38:19John Coogan?

  Okay, so like Call of Duty.

• 38:21Jordi Hays?

  Core mem- I basically spawned into Rust.

• 38:24John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 38:27Jordi Hays?

  I just like have no memories and then it's me 360 no scoping off of the top.

• 38:31John Coogan?

  Off of the tower.

• 38:32Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:34John Coogan?

  So, so Call of Duty, the monetization like has ramped up a ton.

• 38:38Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 38:39John Coogan?

  But they reset the, the, like the shittiness of the monetization every single cycle. So they're on annual cycle essentially. Every year they come out with a new game and every year you buy the game and it's $60. And there's no pay to win mechanics. There's no battle pass. There's nothing you can pay for. And everyone's like, oh, thank God, like this one isn't pay to win. And everyone's like, good, like I just got all the content that I wanted. And I get to, and I get to, you know, make the decision of like, what do I get and what's the price and is it good or bad? And everyone's like, oh, it's a seven out of 10 every time.

• 39:10Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 39:10John Coogan?

  And people play it. But over time, what happens is that. Like, the normie Call of Duty person comes on, they play the campaign, and they play a little bit of multiplayer. Maybe they like get to the prestige level one, they unlock all the guns, and then they're kind of done after like a month. They get like burned out. Those people kind of fade off. But the really hardcore fans will play the full year until the next one comes out. And the really, really hardcore ones will stay on for an extra year on the game that they love. And so the monetization just keeps ramping up during that time, and they sell more and more skins and more and more stuff. And so if you, if you go and look at like the, like a review, a day one review of a, of a Call of Duty that came out in 2020

• 39:53John Coogan?

  or something like that, like the new Modern Warfare. The, the reviews from the day it launched will be like, this is, this is, this is a reasonable monetization program.

• 40:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 40:03John Coogan?

  But if you talk to the influencers that like stuck with it, they'll be like, it's the worst thing ever. It's pay to win and there's, you know, you can see there's loot boxes and gambling now and they've added all this stuff on. And, and, but they do that very deliberately because they only introduce it to people that are already in the ecosystem and sucked in.

• 40:21Jordi Hays?

  They're like, I've spent three grand on this game. I'm, I'm gonna spend the next $200.

• 40:26John Coogan?

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 40:27Jordi Hays?

  It's funny. I used to worry as a kid, I was, I was like, are we running out of wars they can make games about, right? Right? Cause it felt like they went from like, they did World War One, they did World War Two, and then Black Ops was Vietnam, right? And then when do they introduce?

• 40:46John Coogan?

  Well, they did the future wars.

• 40:47Jordi Hays?

  They did the future ones, but eventually it seems like, here's a, here's a, here's a take.

• 40:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:53Jordi Hays?

  Do they do Operation Iraqi Freedom like in the next 10 years? Like?

• 40:59John Coogan?

  Oh, in, in Call of Duty?

• 41:00Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:01John Coogan?

  That would be crazy. I don't think they've ever done that, right? They've done Modern Warfare and it's like in the general area, but it's abstract.

• 41:06Jordi Hays?

  It's generally too offensive, right?

• 41:08John Coogan?

  But it's abstract.

• 41:08Jordi Hays?

  Like it's too, like, if you did a war from within the last 20 years, it would, it would be, but ultimately that would probably be the best selling version of Call of Duty.

• 41:17John Coogan?

  Yeah, it is crazy because they'll do ones where it's like, oh, you're fighting terrorists in the Middle East, but it's not just like straight up kill of something.

• 41:25Jordi Hays?

  I used to enjoy the... Missions, you know, in the context of my great grandpa was like a fighter pilot and got shot down like multiple times. And I used to be.

• 41:39John Coogan?

  Multiple times?

• 41:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, he was, he was.

• 41:41John Coogan?

  How do you?

• 41:41Jordi Hays?

  So he started, so this, this guy is a legend. He Pearl Harbor happens, he enlists, lies about his age to get in. Small dude becomes a, uh, the rear gunner in like B-52 bombers. Does two tours, gets shot down twice.

• 42:00John Coogan?

  Wow.

• 42:02Jordi Hays?

  Makes it out and then is, trains to be, is it P-51? What's like, what was the best fighter?

• 42:09John Coogan?

  Yeah, the Mustang.

• 42:10Jordi Hays?

  The Mustang, yeah. Trains to be a Mustang pilot and is in route to the Pacific Theater when the war ended, finally.

• 42:20Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, tough, tough, tough bastard.

• 42:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, so, so to bring it back to MKBHD, I think what he should have done is he should have just launched with something, just, just go for just the installs. Just free, no ads, no tracking, just get everyone to install this thing and then see where you're at. And then, and then, and then, once you have everyone's email and you've captured everyone and, and you know who actually likes it, then you, you, you no longer have to message to your whole YouTube community, cause he put this out on, he, he did a, he did basically like sponsored read on his own YouTube channel, introducing the app. That goes out to 12 million people or something like that.

• 42:59Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 42:59John Coogan?

  But, but there's probably a subset of like 100,000 people that are actually down for this and I, and I mean, Nikita Beer was saying that he's gonna make like 3 million a year off this.

• 43:07Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah, and the funny thing is, I mean, the good thing is when you have a really big audience like that and people generally like you. You get multiple chances. So he'll probably still get to that end state.

• 43:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Jordi Hays?

  But 3 million a year for somebody who makes probably 15 mil, I, I have no idea how much money he makes.

• 43:24John Coogan?

  It's a large organization at this point.

• 43:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and I'm sure that Dell would be like, we'll give you 5 million dollars a year to cover us a few times or whatever.

• 43:34John Coogan?

  That might road trust more than this, honestly, at least this is a try.

• 43:38Jordi Hays?

  Regardless, yeah, he could have gotten those.

• 43:41John Coogan?

  Jesus, like the guy reviews iPhones and Android phones like.

• 43:45Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but the whole, that's the thing with being creators, right? If you get big enough, you have to sell out to keep, to keep the, to keep growing, right?

• 43:54John Coogan?

  I mean, there is something to, for like.

• 43:56Jordi Hays?

  Unless you have your own.

• 43:57John Coogan?

  Yeah, you want to own your own product and that's clearly where he's going with this. And he did say that he wants to like add some other stuff to it and maybe it won't be just like a wallpaper out forever.

• 44:06Jordi Hays?

  What if you could AI generate a family? So if you're an incel, you could.

• 44:11John Coogan?

  On the panels app, that's where this goes.

• 44:14Jordi Hays?

  Well, I'm just, that's just what I associate with wallpapers.

• 44:17John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah, because it's always, it's supposed to be your family.

• 44:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, this is very, very odd.

• 44:23Jordi Hays?

  Wait.

• 44:26Jordi Hays?

  This is great. I just want you to, you're just gonna see this email, email on blast. Look at this subject.

• 44:36John Coogan?

  Well, should we talk about another kind of iffy launch? Pair AI.

• 44:42Jordi Hays?

  Dude, these guys' response was honestly really good, I thought. Like they kind of did what they needed to do. They just posted through it and sort of like reclaimed their honor, which was like they had posted. I think it was sort of disingenuous, the way they said, we, you know, we forked this and didn't mention that we also had forked this other thing.

• 45:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:07Jordi Hays?

  But they had put out a video three months prior to this launch.

• 45:11John Coogan?

  Oh, really?

• 45:12Jordi Hays?

  Saying that, saying exactly what it is.

• 45:15John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:15Jordi Hays?

  So it's not like there was a history of misleading people about what their product was.

• 45:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, and I mean, in AI, there have been a number of those where, where later there's been a question about like, who owns? Like Stability AI went through a whole thing with this with like, who owns the IP? And what, where does this sit and what's the relationship? Like, this seems pretty simple. It is kind of silly because it's like, we just forked this.

• 45:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 45:41John Coogan?

  I mean, I don't know, I don't like, I mean, I guess there is a question about like, you know, literally the licenses, like certain licenses, you can fork them, but then you can't sell what you're forking. And that's the problem. But I mean, there are big businesses like Red Hat is a huge, huge, multi-billion dollar company. And it's a fork of Linux, like it's, it's, that's the Red Hat strategy. And there's a few of those, and I could see, I could see a company winning in open source AI in that way. I don't think that that's that crazy. I don't know about this specifically.

• 46:14Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't know, I'm kind of, it's funny, I'm sort of generally bearish on the company, purely because of the space that they're in and how competitive it is and how it, it's hard to imagine that, that,

• 46:29Jordi Hays?

  you know, I think there, like, there's a huge willingness to try new tools right now. Cause everybody, everything's changing so quickly, but is the YC company with 500K and like, a bunch of haters gonna actually win now? Cause like, I think having the, part of why, punch, part of why developers love Stripe is because they have a lot of respect and admiration for the Carlson Brothers. And so, is the average developer, like, I kind of want to back Pair just to spite the haters.

• 47:00Jordi Hays?

  But I'm not like, but I think it's like, these founders are probably gonna be very successful. Will Pair AI be successful?

• 47:07John Coogan?

  Yeah, there is an interesting question.

• 47:09Jordi Hays?

  Very unclear.

• 47:09John Coogan?

  Like, what type of organization does, does need an open source AI code editor? Like, there are lots of places where it's like, okay, why, why would you want open source in that particular part of your tech stack? Like, well, you know, it's flexibility around a specific thing. Avoiding lock-in to a specific thing, like, what, why, why go with, you know, Postgres as opposed to Oracle database? But well, like, there's a lot more flexibility that comes with that. But in the, in the code editor space, it's like, that's usually more on the, on the developer side, like, individual, like developer decision. Kind of unclear, but.

• 47:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think one factor is, it's not like, everybody, like, this next one, I guess we do in turbo, I guess we do in turbo retarded Gen Z founders now. It's like, this is not new. YC has always backed.

• 48:01Jordi Hays?

  I won't use that same language. I've always backed young, technical founders that were just like very ambitious, that were gonna do whatever it took to win.

• 48:09John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:10Jordi Hays?

  And the model is like proven beyond a doubt, right?

• 48:13John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Jordi Hays?

  There's been a lot of like FUD lately on people being like, oh, YC's last six batches, there's not that many unicorns. It's like, okay, I don't think there ever was like that. You know, sometimes you get breakout companies or whatever. But I think the difference now is tech is so mainstream that these guys are coming in. They already have a YouTube channel that's super active.

• 48:33John Coogan?

  I think I printed out that Delian tweet below, which is, which is really, really, really interesting, which is like, yeah, like when, when, when the for you page and the algorithm, like these guys know how to go viral. That's clear from the way they wrote this tweet. I just quit my $270,000 job at Coinbase. Like this is clickbait and they got a ton of attention.

• 48:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 48:54John Coogan?

  But even if you wrote this tweet, you know, 10 years ago, you would not be the front page of the internet necessarily for your startup. It would be much harder to break through.

• 49:05Jordi Hays?

  I'm trying to see if this guy has a Cartier crash on, which would be like a crazy piece to just have on. Cause it's, it's basically like you, I don't know, you'd have to spend like the entire.

• 49:17John Coogan?

  YC check on your watch.

• 49:20Jordi Hays?

  But.

• 49:22John Coogan?

  Yeah, they definitely seem like, you know, they, they definitely understand going viral.

• 49:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I'm bullish on these guys, bearish on Per AI.

• 49:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:32Jordi Hays?

  And we'll.

• 49:32John Coogan?

  But who knows where they will wind up, like.

• 49:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, if they're, if it's a real YC company, they'll pivot twice more.

• 49:38John Coogan?

  Exactly.

• 49:39Jordi Hays?

  They'll be a closed source code editor. Hey, actually, we didn't like being so open about what we're working on. Like, we're just gonna build, we're just gonna build software.

• 49:48John Coogan?

  I mean, all bets are off. You can be nonprofit and then be worth 157 billion, you know? You don't need to.

• 49:54Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah, people, people fudding Y Combinator as if OpenAI is not a YC company.

• 50:01John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 50:02Jordi Hays?

  Like.

• 50:03John Coogan?

  Came directly out of Y C.

• 50:05Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 50:05John Coogan?

  Yeah, you gotta include that in the recent, in the recent history.

• 50:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:10John Coogan?

  It's like the most important technology ever.

• 50:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 50:14John Coogan?

  I mean, like, you can say whatever you want about the, about the financial ownership or whatever, but like, it's clearly like, like, they made something cool that everyone uses and it's awesome. And like, a lot of people have built other things based on it because of that.

• 50:27Jordi Hays?

  We love the economy, so we love a for-profit organization, right?

• 50:32John Coogan?

  I am, I am so much happier now.

• 50:33Jordi Hays?

  I think that if every, convert every single nonprofit that is doing homeless-related work in L A into a for-profit, and I, I guarantee you it, it solves the homeless issue in two weeks.

• 50:49John Coogan?

  Seems reasonable. What else should we do?

• 50:53Jordi Hays?

  Should we do this, The Longshoreman?

• 50:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, we can talk about that. I don't really know that much about it. I know that I have some stuff stuck in the middle of the ocean.

• 51:02Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. This is not about being informed. This is about, this is about sharing opinions and you don't need to be informed to have an opinion.

• 51:12John Coogan?

  That's true.

• 51:12Jordi Hays?

  Put that on the record.

• 51:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, this guy just had, I mean, he, he looks like he's a character out of, he's like the, the villain out of a movie, you know? Where like the next stage of this mutiny is like they just rebel and like, like secede from the union and like the ports, the ports become, you know, the beginning of, of, of like the new, you know, America riffs. But not in like, you know. But anyways, I think this is like a pretty, somebody compared it to, to the organized crime. And I think that's like pretty on point where it's effectively just.

• 51:59Jordi Hays?

  I mean, who knows, right? I think from his point of view, he's doing his job. He gets paid like about a million a year to represent his people.

• 52:07John Coogan?

  I think, I mean, people quote tweeted, like, this guy makes 780K. But it's like, that's not that much. That's less than like a fang, like, level one new grad these days. So it's like, is this guy really this? I don't know. I'm not really buying the whole villain thing.

• 52:22Jordi Hays?

  I think it, I think it ultimately backfires in a big way, right? Because everybody's like, oh, yeah, we actually really do need automation. We shouldn't be dependent on like a bunch of-

• 52:30John Coogan?

  It does seem like a mess.

• 52:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we don't, we shouldn't be dependent on a bunch of angry, you know, value extractors that basically have a monopoly.

• 52:41John Coogan?

  Yeah, I, I, I do wonder how it, how it fits in with the election. Like, the strike began October 1st. Election is in November. There's some sort of Taft-Hartley thing that the, that the president can do to kind of force them to go back to work, which would like alleviate-

• 52:58Jordi Hays?

  For four weeks or something?

• 52:59John Coogan?

  For four weeks, which could time up like perfectly so that you're not feeling it when you're voting, essentially. And then you start feeling it right when it's done. So it's just like, it's just like odd timing, but-

• 53:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 53:10John Coogan?

  I mean, Ryan Peterson seems like he's like pretty, pretty bullish right now on it ending soon, or like, you know, optimistic-

• 53:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 53:17John Coogan?

  That it will, it will resolve, but-

• 53:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I think Ryan Peterson has, uh, needs to verticalize and own the ports, you know? Otherwise, he's just gonna take like 20 years off his life from all the stress, you know? Like, he needs to own, he needs to own all the land within 100 miles of, of the water in Yemen, right? Like, he needs to own the boats. He needs to own-

• 53:45John Coogan?

  He definitely needs his own navy.

• 53:47Jordi Hays?

  He needs to privatize the navy.

• 53:48John Coogan?

  He needs a navy.

• 53:48Jordi Hays?

  He needs to privatize the ports.

• 53:49John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 53:50Jordi Hays?

  Uh, just so he can get a good night's sleep.

• 53:51John Coogan?

  Yeah, let's get Flexport a navy, for sure.

• 53:56Jordi Hays?

  I think we can probably skip this one. I, I don't feel the need to like throw this kid under the bus. I did think like-

• 54:02John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:02Jordi Hays?

  This is my least favorite form of, of ad right now is like AI-generated slop.

• 54:07John Coogan?

  It's not AI-generated, though.

• 54:10Jordi Hays?

  It's not?

• 54:10John Coogan?

  No. It's literally just normal editing.

• 54:14Jordi Hays?

  Really?

• 54:14John Coogan?

  Just movie clips and stuff, pictures.

• 54:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but for some reason it, for some reason it felt so wet. It felt so whack compared to the Excel was doing like handcrafted editing.

• 54:27John Coogan?

  Did you see the other one that launched yesterday? The one that was like developers, developers, developers, developers? Did you see that one?

• 54:36Jordi Hays?

  No.

• 54:37John Coogan?

  It was Resolve AI. Did you see this?

• 54:41John Coogan?

  This one's, this one's great.

• 54:54Jordi Hays?

  See, this is good.

• 54:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, this is good, right?

• 54:56Jordi Hays?

  This is the same format, it's just real.

• 55:05Jordi Hays?

  See, this is the same format though as the original Founder's Fund Hyperreal, which we copied at Capital and then a bunch of other people. And now it's in the zeitgeist and now the format's dead.

• 55:16John Coogan?

  It is.

• 55:18Jordi Hays?

  So sorry to whoever, did you edit that video for Founder's Fund?

• 55:21John Coogan?

  No, it was Mike Petriano.

• 55:22Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, Mike, Mike did a great thing.

• 55:24John Coogan?

  He did.

• 55:25Jordi Hays?

  We remixed it.

• 55:26John Coogan?

  He created a, yeah, he created a

• 55:27Jordi Hays?

  He created a monster.

• 55:28John Coogan?

  And then it just like, yeah, it's done.

• 55:30Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's, it's a very fun format. I just wouldn't do it as a company today.

• 55:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess the question is like, how do you break through? Cause like, I mean, this launch for this like, what's it called? Rewind, I think?

• 55:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, Resolve AI, it's, I mean, it's like, it'd be pretty hard to get a million views on your launch video otherwise. Or like your launch something. So like, what do you do other than just like a vibe reel that can go viral on X?

• 55:59John Coogan?

  It's hard.

• 56:00Jordi Hays?

  Build something great.

• 56:02John Coogan?

  Takes time.

• 56:03Jordi Hays?

  Copy an open source.

• 56:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, create a controversy. Honestly.

• 56:08Jordi Hays?

  No video needed.

• 56:09John Coogan?

  Yes, yeah, be the villain.

• 56:11Jordi Hays?

  Be, yeah, the heel.

• 56:12John Coogan?

  Be the heel or not the face. It's funny.

• 56:18John Coogan?

  I don't know.

• 56:19Jordi Hays?

  Okay, do we wanna?

• 56:20John Coogan?

  We're gonna talk about the David Senter of it?

• 56:23Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Where was it? So funny. So Austin, Texas. Yeah. Amazing space that was basically, it's basically like a hotel that is kind of like, I mean, it has sort of like some, some continuous use for some, I think, foundation out there. But Founders Podcast and Business Breakdown hosted an event. There was like 120-ish people there. No other people on the property, which was cool. So you'd just be like, you know, doing something random at the gym. You'd strike up a conversation, et cetera.

• 57:03Jordi Hays?

  Amazing, amazing group of people. I would say it felt like at least 10% of the people there had a net worth of over a billion dollars, which is like hard to get in the same sort of like, you know, acre that often unless you're in Davos. He's very good at doing that, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think, and the funny thing, this story came up a few times, but I, I capital, we were one of the first advertisers of Founders Podcast. Really? And at the time, it's so funny, what like two years does, I think we paid him like 5,000 for the quarter. Wow. And now it's, it's like, you need to be doing like a seven-figure multi-year deal

• 57:45Jordi Hays?

  to even enter the conversation. And he's probably going to be like, yeah, it's not a fit. Yeah. But anyways, David's amazing. Matt, the other host, is awesome too. It was an interesting situation because it was clear, like, like, there were some really great panels, but it was almost like the panels were just like dead time because the second you'd leave a panel and just start talking, there were so many great people. Yeah. And David kept saying like, I want to do a conference with no panels. Yep. It's just like the space, which I think is, is great. I've done that. It works well. Yeah. And.

• 58:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, ultimately, I think David left the weekend being like, I'm not, I don't even, I don't think he's ever gonna do one again. But it was funny because, because he just would rather host a group of people.

• 58:36John Coogan?

  I think, I think the retreat with no content is fine.

• 58:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, maybe, but it was almost, I, I told him, you should have a retreat for your audience.

• 58:46John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 58:47Jordi Hays?

  And don't even go. Because it's, there's so much value in just connecting with other people that are like minded. And so you, you phone in and do your panel. Hey, everyone, I'm so happy that you guys are all together. He's on the, he's on the Venetian Islands. Because the challenge is, it's really enjoyable for everyone, except for him, who's, you know, basically like forty eight hour period, forty eight hour period where people are grabbing him and all this stuff. But anyways, I think people were generally respectful and it was good, it was pretty funny, like,

• 59:21Jordi Hays?

  almost, you know, people that I was hanging out with.

• 59:26Jordi Hays?

  Jackson Dahl, Bryce from NDVC, Justin Mers, Jeremy Gaffon, David Perrell, like Jorgensen, people like that. I don't think any one of those people like had more than like a single, one or two drinks the entire weekend, even though there's an open bar like the entire time. So it was interesting to, to really see like the death of alcohol. Like, pretty, you know.

• 59:52Jordi Hays?

  Pretty, pretty plainly, the only people that were getting absolutely hammered was,

• 59:58Jordi Hays?

  was some of the old guard, which was fun, I was asking them, you know, this, this guy's like borderline like blacked out. Only person that I think was truly like drunk in the whole event on, on Friday night. And I was like, how does it feel to just be old and just loaded? And he's just like laughing. And he's like, yeah, like dude, you, you like busted your ass for four decades. You deserve to be the only person that's blacked out here. And I actually appreciate it.

• 1:00:27John Coogan?

  Yeah, everyone else is still on the hunt.

• 1:00:28Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, nobody's got time to be hungover tomorrow. But, um, yeah, fantastic event and David, when you listen to this, host a retreat where you're not there.

• 1:00:41John Coogan?

  You're not there.

• 1:00:42Jordi Hays?

  Call in from the Venetian Isles. I think, I think this community would appreciate it, I know a lot of people came out of it, I mean, I was in the, it's funny, at the very end, I was staying an extra night and. Austin to see a portfolio founder the next day. And this guy's like, hey, does anybody want to split an Uber? And I'm going downtown. I was like, sure, let's do it. And we get in the car, it wasn't really like, you know, we, I'd never met the guy that weekend. We were talking about what we, what, um, what, what each of us do. And he's like, oh yeah, I run like a $6 billion hedge fund, you know, in London, you know? It's just like, so it was like that, that quality of people. But anyways, would, would, if it happens again, I'll be back.

• 1:01:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Jordi Hays?

  There needed to be, everybody there was very Excel curious or already, already an active user.

• 1:01:35John Coogan?

  Customer.

• 1:01:36Jordi Hays?

  A DAU.

• 1:01:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Jordi Hays?

  We should, we measure our customer base in DAUs, not a, not traditional sales volume. But, uh, but yeah, that was great. The other thing over the weekend, I feel like I kept opening my phone and people would be talking about Excel in my mentions. Do we want to talk about that?

• 1:01:56John Coogan?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:01:56Jordi Hays?

  Screenshot I sent you.

• 1:01:59John Coogan?

  Yeah, we should do that.

• 1:02:00Jordi Hays?

  So.

• 1:02:05Jordi Hays?

  So anyways, we got our first honest review of Excel nicotine pouches from Capital Cowboy on X. He says, for anyone curious, here's my honest review of Excel. Better, smoother flavor than any Zin I've had, lasts significantly longer too. Had my cousin that can't handle Nick, upset stomach at three milligrams. Try these. And he said, you got all the buzz without the stomach issues. So that is the power of Excel. Obviously I asked him, have you noticed anything different with your returns? Most users report, report improvements after using Excel.

• 1:02:46Jordi Hays?

  And Cowboy said, I actually got a promotion after using Excel, no joke. And he said his buddy Mark got a promotion as well. And Mark said, using it and got a promotion a week after switching to the brand, shit works. And I said, all it did.

• 1:03:05Jordi Hays?

  All it did was make you more you, right? Because you on nicotine is you on your best day, right? It's you on 100% sleep score, you know, fully locked in. So anyways, the reactions have been, reactions have been great. If you're a user and you have any comments, feedbacks, product suggestions, or if you're interested in debt financing through the Excel brand, reach out.

• 1:03:36John Coogan?

  Yeah, sounds good.

• 1:03:39John Coogan?

  Should we do this viral chain letter? I think this thing is so funny.

• 1:03:43Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have to start by saying I, I actually don't know if I have a copy of this one.

• 1:03:52John Coogan?

  So a bunch of celebrities have been sharing a copy pasta text meme on their Instagrams. And it says, goodbye Meta AI. Please note, an attorney has advised us to put this on. Failure to do so may result in legal consequences. As Meta is now a public entity, all space, space. All members must post a similar statement. If you do not post at least once, it will be assumed you are okay with them using your information and photos. I do not give Meta or anyone else permission to use any of my personal data, profile information, or photos. And then the amazing thing is that, is that Meta has appended,

• 1:04:36John Coogan?

  see why fact checkers say this is false. They added the fact check like modal like over it to just be like, just so you know, this is misinformation. It's just so funny. Tom Brady posted it.

• 1:04:49Jordi Hays?

  Really?

• 1:04:49John Coogan?

  Yeah, Julianne Moore and a bunch of other people. And it's just so funny. It's so boomer. I remember this happening like, like at the dawn of Facebook, like maybe 10 years ago. And it's still happening.

• 1:04:59Jordi Hays?

  It would be like they changed the terms of service. One schizo person posts this like ramble. Somebody posts just like an absolute ramble. And then it somehow picks up. And I only saw it on, honestly, shout out to the people that I follow. Because I only saw one person post it.

• 1:05:17John Coogan?

  Oh, unironically?

• 1:05:19Jordi Hays?

  Unironically. And that guy formerly ran a public company.

• 1:05:25Jordi Hays?

  So that was a bit concerning to me because I, because I, yeah, I honestly.

• 1:05:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I

• 1:05:32John Coogan?

  I mean, it's just like, like, I get being a boomer and not understanding how the internet works and being confused and stuff.

• 1:05:37Jordi Hays?

  But I would just rewrite it.

• 1:05:40John Coogan?

  Well, yeah, A, rewrite it, but B, like, like, is there any, is there any scenario as a public company where, you know, it's like, this is like the equivalent of, I don't know, like, like, holding up a sign outside of the, outside of the White House and just being like, I want you to, you know,

• 1:06:00Jordi Hays?

  Ah.

• 1:06:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, it just, it just makes no sense how this would be like legally binding or any sort of like

• 1:06:06Jordi Hays?

  On an ephemeral story.

• 1:06:08John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:08Jordi Hays?

  On an ephemeral story.

• 1:06:09John Coogan?

  How is this at all the way that you interact with a company, right?

• 1:06:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:13John Coogan?

  It's like, it's like leaving a review on a restaurant and expecting that to be like legally binding somehow.

• 1:06:17Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and it's funny because if, if people are scraping your profile for data, which they are,

• 1:06:23John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Jordi Hays?

  to train models.

• 1:06:24John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:25Jordi Hays?

  The AI, like, the scraper, like, shows up on John, at John Coogan.

• 1:06:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:29Jordi Hays?

  And they just start like sniffing around. And they're like, and then they see like, oh, you, you added a story highlight and three months ago he posted this and the scraper goes, Hmm, okay, let's get out of here.

• 1:06:42John Coogan?

  Let's get out of here, this person's, this person's really stupid.

• 1:06:45Jordi Hays?

  Or Meta's just like, who stores the data?

• 1:06:48John Coogan?

  What if it actually winds up working? Because the AI is like, oh yeah, we, we don't want to train on people that under, that, you know.

• 1:06:53Jordi Hays?

  That could really open up some liability.

• 1:06:55John Coogan?

  Are this gullible? We don't want to train on this people.

• 1:06:56Jordi Hays?

  But Meta, who, who already hosts all your data.

• 1:07:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:01Jordi Hays?

  And tracks every single thing you do on the app to use.

• 1:07:05John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:06Jordi Hays?

  And they're, they're like, yeah, yeah, this guy's big, big no-no on this guy.

• 1:07:10John Coogan?

  At the same time, like, the fact that this keeps happening does

• 1:07:15Jordi Hays?

  Say something about humanity.

• 1:07:16John Coogan?

  Say something about humanity, but also it's like, it should be somewhat of a wake-up call to Meta and like the actual employees there. But like, your consumers don't understand you at all.

• 1:07:27Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:27John Coogan?

  You need to probably do better to educate them about how things work.

• 1:07:32Jordi Hays?

  Which is, which is why I'm long on Zuck's personal conquest.

• 1:07:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:39Jordi Hays?

  And value creation.

• 1:07:40John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:41Jordi Hays?

  And I'm a fan of him.

• 1:07:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:43Jordi Hays?

  I'm short on his public image because I think him getting cocky again and and and wearing shirts that say Zuck is inevitable.

• 1:07:52John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Jordi Hays?

  And Meta still being like basically at gonna be at the epicenter of all this drama around AI and. You know, generated content and all this stuff is like very short his uh public image. I think he enjoyed like a sort of temporary sort of um. You know.

• 1:08:11John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:11Jordi Hays?

  Basically two year period.

• 1:08:14John Coogan?

  I do want him to mix it up because it's like so he's this like fashion god now and is wearing like streetwear and like baggy t-shirts.

• 1:08:21Jordi Hays?

  Skull and valor.

• 1:08:22John Coogan?

  But yeah, uh but like there is a way for him to wear like an impeccable suit.

• 1:08:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29John Coogan?

  And and and apply the same the same pro thought process.

• 1:08:34Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, you have teams of.

• 1:08:35John Coogan?

  To looking fantastic, but it's just in a suit.

• 1:08:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39John Coogan?

  And just do.

• 1:08:41Jordi Hays?

  I mean, we just say that because it'd be good for.

• 1:08:43John Coogan?

  Yeah, of course, but like like like it it's it is interesting that like he's he's applied like I I now take fashion seriously. But I only apply it in this one very narrow like.

• 1:08:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:55John Coogan?

  Like section of fashion like I want to see him look as fashionable, but also in a suit or also in a variety of things.

• 1:09:03Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, just like dress your age.

• 1:09:04John Coogan?

  Just like have, yeah, yeah, have some more like reach and some and I think if he broadens out a little bit. He can class it up or or dress it down and he'll have more flexibility there.

• 1:09:13Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13John Coogan?

  He clearly found like a wheelhouse and he's just like doubling down on that and he's gotten really.

• 1:09:17Jordi Hays?

  It's like an algorithm.

• 1:09:19John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Jordi Hays?

  He's literally like an algorithm. He's like, wow, they liked when I wake. So they didn't like when I wake boarded with all the sunscreen. But when I wakeboard and I hold a flag.

• 1:09:29John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Jordi Hays?

  People like that.

• 1:09:31John Coogan?

  He's in a little bit of a filter.

• 1:09:32Jordi Hays?

  I'm gonna I'm okay, then if if people like flags and wakeboarding, they probably like beef. I'm gonna show them my cattle ranch, right? And then and then they're like, oh, I wore a watch and they like that. So I'm gonna get a more expensive watch than like an even even bigger hitter of a piece.

• 1:09:51John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:52Jordi Hays?

  But that only that goes so like that that you eventually get a negative reaction to that. Sort of doubling doubling down on everything.

• 1:10:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, I wonder where that will come from. I mean, he's done a fantastic job of being apolitical.

• 1:10:08Jordi Hays?

  To me. To me, the shirt, the Amiri shirt that says Zuck is inevitable is, it's like dude, you're obviously inevitable. You're a force.

• 1:10:22John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Jordi Hays?

  You don't need to, you telling people you're inevitable is cringe, right? People will already say that behind your back. Yeah, it's like a victory lap. Like, for what reason? Just, just deliver.

• 1:10:36John Coogan?

  I can't use sunglasses without logging into your.

• 1:10:38Jordi Hays?

  Deliver returns to shareholders.

• 1:10:41John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:41Jordi Hays?

  That's the only thing that matters. When, when the stock eventually drops, people will be, they'll, they'll take pictures of that shirt and make it say like, you know, $500 billion market cap is inevitable, you know, down from.

• 1:11:02John Coogan?

  Do you think it was like just a funny joke? Do you think there's something to that?

• 1:11:06Jordi Hays?

  Is it funny?

• 1:11:10John Coogan?

  It might be funny. The.

• 1:11:11Jordi Hays?

  If you've got to ask yourself, is it funny? It's probably not. Every time I say, I take something too far.

• 1:11:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Jordi Hays?

  I li- I break character.

• 1:11:20John Coogan?

  So, so what, I think that there's always this layer of humor that is different when it's coming from, like, someone as powerful as Zuck or Elon.

• 1:11:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:33John Coogan?

  Like, I keep thinking about, for, for years, I was like, I love Elon, but man, these childlike hu- the child, the childlike humor is just not hitting with me.

• 1:11:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:44John Coogan?

  The 69, 420 is just not funny to me. Until he was in this interview with the BBC reporter and he says, do you like BBC? And, and, and it was so stupid, it's such a stupid joke, but he was laughing super hard.

• 1:12:00Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00John Coogan?

  And I was like, this is actually hilarious, not because, do you like, asking a BBC reporter, do you like BBC, is that funny? It's funny because it's the world's richest man who's super powerful asking a reporter that.

• 1:12:12Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:12John Coogan?

  The, the context matters. And so, yeah, I, this one, I'm not sure if that's funny.

• 1:12:18Jordi Hays?

  Here's what would be funny to me. If Zuck was on his hydrofoil wakeboard, you know, doing his thing in his meta glasses, and then in the scenery, and he's in Kwa or whatever, he's in his retreat, and on the hillside behind him, it's literally like using a lawnmower like carved into the grass. It says like Zuck is inevitable, and it's not like so front and center. That would be funny, because seeing that image of him just like riding his little like hydrofoil thing. And then you're like, wait, did he carved in like a football field of grass? Like Zuck is inevitable? Like, that's, that's cool.

• 1:12:56John Coogan?

  That's ridiculous.

• 1:12:57Jordi Hays?

  Make a monument.

• 1:12:58John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:59Jordi Hays?

  Or, yeah, so.

• 1:13:01John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Jordi Hays?

  Zuck, when you listen to this, make monuments.

• 1:13:08John Coogan?

  He, I mean, he made a monument in his backyard of his wife.

• 1:13:12Jordi Hays?

  Oh, yeah, that was a piece.

• 1:13:14John Coogan?

  Yeah, so he's gonna do some stuff. I don't know. I think.

• 1:13:18Jordi Hays?

  I respect Zuck.

• 1:13:19John Coogan?

  Yeah, I don't know where.

• 1:13:22Jordi Hays?

  There's, there's just a difference, though, and like what I'm talking about is like respect versus likability. And I'll always respect him.

• 1:13:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Jordi Hays?

  I've gone through periods where I sort of like him.

• 1:13:36John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:36Jordi Hays?

  And I don't like him.

• 1:13:37John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:39Jordi Hays?

  And.

• 1:13:39John Coogan?

  And you're worried that he's like the top.

• 1:13:41Jordi Hays?

  Not that it matters, but for him, he clearly cares about what people think about him.

• 1:13:44John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:45Jordi Hays?

  So my advice would be, you know, dial it back and, and I just think people, you know, he has like a PR team around him and like image consultants and stylists and stuff like that. It's like, just be more, be more creative, you know?

• 1:14:02John Coogan?

  Yeah, definitely needs more breadth to the, to the stunts and whatnot. More, yeah, more, more humor and more fun.

• 1:14:14Jordi Hays?

  More fun.