MURDERED: Rachel Hansen

On June 2, 2022, Rachel Hansen opened her eyes to a dark figure standing over her bed, staring at her. She screamed, and the person took off. But the very next night — just after 2 a.m. — a dark figure entered her Gilbert, Arizona, apartment again, kicked down her bedroom door and shot her in the abdomen before fleeing.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ashley Flowers?

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• 3:01Ashley Flowers?

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• 3:20Ashley Flowers?

  Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  And I'm Brett.

• 3:24Ashley Flowers?

  Listen, you guys, if you have been with us long enough, you've probably heard me talk about "The Gift of Fear." That is the title of a book by Gavin DeBecker, but the message is right there. Some call it a sixth sense. You might even call it full-body chills, depending on when it strikes you. But there is something intuitive in us that, if we trust, can tell us that we are in trouble. Now, it's not always an alarm. Sometimes it's this quiet feeling, warning you of someone's presence, telling you that you're not alone. And that is the very feeling that woke up 19-year-old Rachel Hansen from sleep one June night in 2022. The adrenaline coursing through her spiked when she opened her eyes to find someone

• 4:09Ashley Flowers?

  standing over her bed, staring at her. Rachel let out a scream, and that sent the person running out of her room, then out of her apartment completely, without ever uttering a word.

• 4:22Ashley Flowers?

  And that should have been the worst thing that happened to Rachel in that Gilbert, Arizona apartment, but it wasn't because the very next night, when Rachel was asleep in bed, just after 2:00 a.m., a dark figure entered her bedroom again, held up a gun, and shot her in the abdomen before fleeing. Was that first break-in unrelated, or was it a warning, a bad omen of what was to come? To this day, no suspects have been named. And if you read the heavily redacted 338-page police file that the Gilbert Police Department released in 2024, you will learn a whole lot of nothing. But to leave it at that,

• 5:04Ashley Flowers?

  it's not exactly the crime junkie nature. So our team did some investigating. Join us as we unravel the mystery of who killed Rachel Hansen.

• 5:47Ashley Flowers?

  When the person who shot Rachel Hansen fled her apartment around 2:00 a.m. on June 4th, 2022, she was still alive. Rachel was bleeding from her abdomen and her upper back where the bullet had entered and exited, but she could still move. So she grabbed her phone and rushed to the apartment bathroom where she called 911. Rachel knows that she's in bad condition, so she wastes no time when the call connects. "I've been shot," she tells them. "Someone broke in and shot me." In about five minutes, first responders are there at the scene, and they start working on her there before rushing her to the hospital. But the bullet that went through her just did too much damage, and after three hours in surgery, doctors couldn't save her.

• 6:31Ashley Flowers?

  But here's the tragedy on top of the tragedy. When Rachel went to the hospital and while she was in surgery, her family had no idea. Our reporter Nicole Kagan spoke to Rachel's mom, Kim Hanson, and she said that no one came to notify the family until 7:00 a.m. after Rachel had died. No one called them when Rachel was found or when she was in surgery at the hospital, which still bothers Kim to this day, knowing that her daughter was there all alone. But that is far from the only thing that bothers her. There would be plenty more heartbreak and disappointment coming. She just didn't know it yet. Because like so many people who never have to live the true crime story, when this all

• 7:16Ashley Flowers?

  unfolded, Kim was under the impression that the criminal justice system worked, that all detectives knew how to do their jobs and that they did them well. Well, that bubble would burst in a hard way, which brings me back to the crime scene. Now, as far as scenes go, Rachel's was simple to process. According to the police file, aside from the blood on her mattress and in her bathroom and the bullet and shell casing, nothing seemed out of place. In fact, there was barely any furniture at all in sight, just her box spring and mattress. I mean, the only thing really notable about the state of the apartment that I can tell from the police file is the smell, because apparently it like reeks of marijuana. And as officers begin canvassing neighbors, they learned that this smell had been there

• 8:01Ashley Flowers?

  for like the last six months. And over that time, there were random people coming and going from the unit and loud arguments. And those who lived around unit 3133 assumed that drugs were being sold out of there and that the young woman who lived there clearly had a bad relationship with her boyfriend, which they would have gotten a front row to, because when Nicole went to this apartment complex, not only are the units pretty close together, but like just walking the hallway, she could clearly hear people talking and watching TV inside their apartment. Paper thin walls. Yeah. But here's what's so strange. On the night Rachel died, they heard nothing.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  How? I mean, even if you were sleeping.

• 8:39Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, I feel like you would hear a gunshot. Like, that would totally wake you up, which-

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, could they have used a silencer on the gun?

• 8:45Ashley Flowers?

  So that was my first thought, right? But I don't know if this killer was being mindful of noise, because while there were no signs of forced entry to Rachel's front door, we actually know from pictures of the apartment that Kim took after it was cleared by police that someone kicked the crap out of Rachel's bedroom door. And this is one of those details that just, like, doesn't compute for me. Like, even if Rachel's bedroom door was locked, you can see from the picture, I don't know if you had those, like, in your old apartments, where it's like, you can, like, use a nail to, like, turn it. So why go through the trouble of, like, kicking it in and making all that noise? And what's even weirder still is that even with the door kicked in, apparently the neighbors still heard nothing. Like, I personally spoke to the neighbor who lived right across from Rachel,

• 9:30Ashley Flowers?

  and they said that they weren't even sleeping when this happened. They had just gotten back from bowling at, like, 1:30 or 2 o'clock in the morning. They're, like, fully awake when the shot would have been fired, which means they would have been awake when the door was kicked in, if it happened then too. And they were awake when Rachel would have called 911, and awake when police were showing up to the apartment-

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:52Ashley Flowers?

  And, like, talking to the people who are now across the hall. How did they hear nothing? Not just like the stuff I mentioned, but like, no hurried footsteps, no, no running away.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 10:01Ashley Flowers?

  No argument. Yeah, they didn't see anything either. And a shady person lingering, I think, would have stood out, because despite whatever was going on for six months in Unit 3133, this was a nice and safe area, like, a gated community, in fact.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Does it have any cameras, then?

• 10:17Ashley Flowers?

  Oh, it does, but, kind of like, the gatedness of this community, it feels like it was a little all for show. The leasing office told investigators that there were no operational cameras anywhere in the complex. And when Nicole went to the complex, now, mind you, this is like three-plus years post homicide, but every time she went down to check the gate, it's just, like, wide open.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 10:40Ashley Flowers?

  But, building security aside, one of Rachel's neighbors did have a working Ring camera.

• 10:47Ashley Flowers?

  This is the first frustrating roadblock in the highly redacted records that we got. Nearly all of what they learned from the Ring camera footage is redacted. Some of the only information that is not says that a camera caught Rachel on June 3rd, like five hours before the shooting, so it'd been like 9:15 PM. And she was with a long-haired man walking to the east on the first floor hall. Now, she lived on the third floor, so this might have been when she like first gets there. Then, a different investigator wrote in another report that at 9:33, quote, "The two are seen walking away from her apartment." And that Rachel is dressed in what looks like a swimsuit.

• 11:28Ashley Flowers?

  Now, when they come back, what other cameras they might have been seen on, I don't know. All redacted. But listen, we don't need to spiral and speculate too much, at least about who this long-haired man was. Because once police finally do notify Rachel's family of her death, again, five hours after she was shot, they figure that out pretty quickly. When police knock on Rachel's parents' door, her dad Todd answers. Her mom Kim was actually in Indiana visiting grandchildren. But officers figure out that the guy with long hair, that is probably Rachel's fiance, Jo Met Bailey. And they learn something else critical. Rachel had just moved back into that apartment.

• 12:10Ashley Flowers?

  June 2nd was her very first night staying there.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  So she's not who everyone thought was selling drugs and fighting with her boyfriend? She hasn't been there?

• 12:19Ashley Flowers?

  No, no. And that's also why the apartment was so empty. Her dad tells police that the apartment was in Rachel's name for a long time, but she had been like off the books subletting it for the last six months.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  To who?

• 12:31Ashley Flowers?

  Dad wasn't sure in the moment. It wasn't someone that she was like super close to. So it takes a minute to track that down, which is fine, because first things first, detectives want to talk to fiance Jo Met. Now, the police report says that they bring Jomet in the next day, which would have been Sunday, June 5th. But Rachel's mom told us that that's wrong, that they brought Jomet right in after they talked to Todd. So this would have been like 8:00 a.m. on the 4th, and she's certain of it. And we tried to ask police to verify this, but a spokesperson for the department said that they could not provide clarifying information citing an active investigation, and Jomet didn't respond to a request for comment. But either way, in this interview, which lasts about four hours,

• 13:15Ashley Flowers?

  Jomet is super distraught. But he readily admits to being with Rachel that night. He says that he stayed with her at the apartment until around midnight when he went home.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  And of course, we can't corroborate that because we don't know what else was on the Ring cameras.

• 13:30Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, we can't. I assume police did because they end up clearing him after what Kim described as like weeks of merciless interrogation.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  And Kim and Todd are on the same page as police? Like, they're not suspicious of Jomet?

• 13:43Ashley Flowers?

  Well, Kim told Nicole that they didn't have an ounce of doubt that Jomet was innocent. I mean, day one, when like, you know, they were fresh in like the throes of things, Todd did sit him down and was basically like, "Look, look me in the eyes, tell me the truth, man to man, did you kill my daughter?" And apparently, Jomet looks right at him and without even wavering says, "No, I would never do that." And they believe him. Kim and Todd had gotten to know Jomet really well since he'd proposed to Rachel earlier that year. Like, they just couldn't see him doing something like this. And Kim says that Jomet was absolutely destroyed in the wake of Rachel's death. And for like six months afterwards, he couldn't eat. He had this like tremendous guilt. He couldn't hold down a job. And he actually lived with the Hanson's for a good portion of that time.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Did he and Rachel live together?

• 14:30Ashley Flowers?

  No, they didn't. But he did stay with her a lot. And actually, between him and Kim, they're actually able to give police one of the most interesting leads in this whole case. Because they both knew about the intruder who'd come into Rachel's room and stood over her the night before she was killed.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Wait, did police not know about that right away?

• 14:50Ashley Flowers?

  Well, no, because after it happened, Rachel didn't call the police about it.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  What?

• 14:54Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so let me just tell you like the whole story that got pieced together. Because it is really strange.

• 15:02Speaker 01

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• 16:06Ashley Flowers?

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• 17:19Ashley Flowers?

  So Thursday, June 1st is the first day that Rachel gets access back to her apartment in like the last six months. Now she had no idea what had been going on there while she was gone. So she was pretty shocked to find the place a mess, like super dirty and the smell of marijuana was so strong, like replaced the carpet strong. So she knew that before she began moving any of her stuff back in, she was gonna need to do like a really deep clean of this place. So that's what she spent Thursday doing. She literally had next to nothing in the place, just her box spring and her mattress. I mean, there wasn't even food in the kitchen. So that first night, she ends up staying with Jo Mette. She comes back the next day, does like more cleaning. And that second day is the first night she's like staying in her place.

• 18:03Ashley Flowers?

  And that was the opening of this story. She is just woken up by this feeling of someone there watching her in her room. But when she wakes up, the person runs. And afterward, Rachel didn't want to be alone, so she texts Jo Mette and asks him to come over.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  I don't get why she didn't want to call the police.

• 18:21Ashley Flowers?

  Because I don't think she actually believed that she was in danger. So her door had been locked. So for this person to get in, they had to have had a key. And because they didn't actually do anything, she kind of figured that it was someone who was maybe connected to her subletter, someone who had a key, came in, and then when they saw that she was someone else, they realized their mistake and just like booked it. So she's like chalking this whole thing up to like a misunderstanding. But here's a weird little fact I cannot let go of. This person didn't do anything, didn't take anything.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Not much to take.

• 18:54Ashley Flowers?

  But they did leave something behind. A jar of pickles, like sitting right there on the kitchen counter.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Okay, I didn't know what I thought you were going to say, but jar of pickles was like very, very far down on the list.

• 19:11Ashley Flowers?

  It's so odd. I mean, it's so weird that Rachel pointed it out to her mom and Jo Mette. And I mean, the benignness of this is probably part of what made her think that this wasn't some like knife wielding maniac and just like a friend coming to see the wrong person and eat pickles. Anyways, that night when she texts Jomet, they decide that like at a minimum, they need to change the locks, right? Like, because even if this person didn't do anything, who knows how many other people might have keys, right? So Jomet grabbed this spare deadbolt from his dad's house and installed it on her door that night. Situation handled.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Wait, then how would an intruder be able to get into our apartment the next night?

• 19:52Ashley Flowers?

  This is the part of the story that makes you just want to like, reach back into the past and like, if we could change one thing, maybe everything would be different. So this night, Friday, June 3rd, we know her and Jomet are at the apartment together. And by the time Jomet leaves around midnight, Rachel was asleep. Now, according to what he told Kim and his own mom, who we talked to as well, Jomet woke Rachel up and he's like, listen, I have to go, but when I leave, I need you to get up and lock the door behind me. And it was like a deadbolt, so you had to physically turn and lock the door. And Rachel agreed, but then when Jomet left, he said he didn't hear the door lock. So he actually went back inside and told Rachel again, like, listen, you have to get up and lock the door behind me. Are you going to get up?

• 20:37Ashley Flowers?

  And she said yes. And so he left, but apparently he never heard the door lock.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  So if she fell back asleep, someone didn't even need a key. They could have just walked right in.

• 20:49Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  But they wouldn't have known that. So this person was either planning on using an old key, which wouldn't have worked, or breaking in.

• 20:57Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess so. And listen, like, I don't know what it means. Everything I just told you is about the extent of what you can learn from the police report. There are a lot of little snippets of information, but with all the redactions, it's almost impossible to piece together anything coherent. And when we reached out to Gilbert PD to try and get some clarity, they said that they, quote, "continue to actively investigate Rachel's case", end quote, but that was about it. And by the way, this isn't just like all we have to work with. This is all that Rachel's own family has to work with. I mean, for the first two years, Kim was meeting with detectives every four months or so, but she rarely learned anything new. And she believed that investigator were working on her daughter's case because that's what they kept telling her they were doing.

• 21:42Ashley Flowers?

  And she doesn't know how this works, right? Like she has to trust them. But a lot of trust is lost by the winter of 2024 when Gilbert PD declares Rachel's case inactive. And that's right about the same time that the Hanson's start working with a private investigator named Justin Yentes. He said that he kind of went into the meeting with them more to just like listen, see how he could advise them. But after learning Rachel's story, Justin knew that he needed to help. So he took on the case pro bono and has been working it ever since. And after talking with him and Rachel's mom and Joe Metz's mom and others, it is safe to say that there is way more bubbling under the surface of this case than the police report would lead you to believe.

• 22:27Ashley Flowers?

  Specifically, these conversations that we had revealed three investigative theories. None of them are perfect. They all have holes, but each also has the potential to be the answer as to what happened to Rachel and why. But to understand each of them, we almost need to work backwards from the shooting and take them one by one. Starting with the subletter theory. Now I'm starting with the subletter theory because if you're looking at this case from the outside, it seems the most obvious. So let's rewind to a year before the shooting, June 2021. That is when Rachel moved out of her childhood home and rented that one bedroom apartment at the Redstone at Sandtan Village Complex in Gilbert.

• 23:12Ashley Flowers?

  She was there for about six months when she got her dream job. Basically, she was offered to live and work at a horse ranch less than 30 minutes away in Queen Creek, Arizona. And Rachel had been working with horses her entire life. Like this job would allow her to live in this little casita on the ranch with the horses literally right outside her window. Plus she could bring her own horse Dash with her. Like she just could not pass this up. But that meant that she had to find someone to sublet her apartment and like pretty quick. So she posted an ad on Facebook Marketplace and through that she connected with a woman named America and they Basically just like work out this deal.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  So they didn't know each other before this?

• 23:51Ashley Flowers?

  According to Kim, no. Rachel and America only met like once or twice and then America moved in. And remember, Rachel didn't quite go through the proper channels at her apartment complex to get permission to sublease. It was very like off the books, which her parents say they were not supportive of. Both of them tried to talk Rachel out of this arrangement, but she assured them that she and America had met. Everything would be fine. So for six months, Rachel and America had a strictly business relationship. Rachel had no idea what she was up to at the apartment. But Rachel's neighbors had their guesses, like I said before. They believed that there were drug sales happening out of the unit. But again, Rachel knew none of this.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  So it's not like she kicked America out because of everything going on? Or because she was afraid she was in trouble or gonna get in trouble or anything?

• 24:36Ashley Flowers?

  No, she ended up kicking America out because she got fired from her job at the ranch. And so without her ranch job.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  She didn't have a place to live.

• 24:43Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly. Which meant that she had to tell America that she needed to like get out of the apartment ASAP. So everything moved kinda quick. America leaving, Rachel coming back. And this is the basis for the subletter theory, which is that Rachel was the unintended target. That whoever shot her was actually targeting America and didn't know that she had moved out two days prior.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  So in this theory, are the intruder and the shooter the same person?

• 25:10Ashley Flowers?

  In this theory, that wouldn't really make sense for them to be the same person. Because the intruder would have realized that Rachel wasn't America on that first night. But I mean, we know from neighbors that like people would come and go from there. So like even if they weren't the same person, it doesn't mean that they weren't both there for America, if that makes sense.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but don't you think if they weren't the same person, that the first intruder would have come forward though? Like and said like, hey, like this happened, it wasn't me the second night?

• 25:39Ashley Flowers?

  Not necessarily. I mean, like as sad as it sounds, if that person's not the shooter, they could be afraid of being pinned as the perpetrator. Or like maybe they were there to buy drugs and they don't want to put themselves on police's radar for that. Especially if, and this is just a theory, but they especially don't want to be associated with anything drug related happening out of there. If there's any chance the shooter could have been targeting America for a related reason.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Can you tell if police ever looked into this theory?

• 26:05Ashley Flowers?

  We think so, based on what Kim told Nicole. Like, she said that early on in the investigation, police took Rachel's devices. So they had access to everybody she had talked to. And they told Kim that they were bringing in people for questioning every day as they went through Rachel's contacts and got warrants for her social media accounts, including Facebook, which Kim knows is how Rachel met America. Now, from what I can make out, reading between the redactions, it looks like at least one individual who was involved in drug sales while America was living in Rachel's apartment was questioned. But that seemingly went nowhere. In fact, all we and Rachel's family know about America is her first name. We don't even know what she looked like.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  I was just gonna ask if she and Rachel resembled each other at all.

• 26:52Ashley Flowers?

  No idea. Justin, the P I., said that he's actively working to connect with America, but he wouldn't give us any more information about how. So at least in his eyes, this theory is still very much on the table.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  I feel like it seems so unlikely that two different people would enter the same apartment two nights in a row.

• 27:13Ashley Flowers?

  I know, I know.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  And so it's more likely to be the same person. And if it's the same person, it can't be mistaken identity.

• 27:21Ashley Flowers?

  Which brings me to theory number two, the horse ranch theory. Now, I want to note, this is one of the theories that the public really ran with after Rachel's death. But to be super upfront with everyone at this point, I think it's the least likely for reasons we'll get into. But I am going to lay it out because the context around it is really important in terms of understanding Rachel's mental state at the time of her death. So let me rewind to before the shooting in June 2022, before Rachel ever even moved out of her childhood home in June 2021. We're going to go all the way back to Rachel's childhood, specifically a period of time that Kim refers to as the dark years.

• 28:06Speaker 01

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• 30:00Ashley Flowers?

  Kim and Todd brought Rachel into their family in February of 2009, when she was just six years old. They were experienced foster parents, active in the system for about 18 years, and there were about 100 kids that passed through their home. Now, in 2009, they weren't actively looking to take in any more kids, so it was a surprise when Rachel's caseworker reached out. But it quickly became clear that this wasn't just like a routine call. This was a last resort. Because Rachel was in a really bad situation, and she needed a new home like right then. You see, Rachel's bio mom had her while she was in rehab. And when she got out, she and Rachel went to live with a man that Rachel assumed was her father or grandfather.

• 30:44Ashley Flowers?

  But Kim says that this guy was actually an unrelated cocaine dealer. Now, Rachel remembered very little from this time of her life. But she told Kim that one night, her birth mom said that she was gonna go to the store for some milk, and then she just never came back. And from then on, it was just Rachel and this older guy. And it is like during this time that people seem to know nothing about. These are the dark years. Like even Rachel couldn't or wouldn't fill in the blanks. But she was little. All Kim knows is that one day, Rachel came home from kindergarten to find the man that she lived with dead on the floor of the apartment, apparently an accident. And then five-year-old Rachel was promptly taken into a child crisis center

• 31:29Ashley Flowers?

  in Phoenix, and then placed into a foster home with a couple who promised that they would adopt her. But six months later, they changed their minds. So that is when Rachel's caseworker called Kim. Now, when Rachel got to the Hanson house, she fit in perfectly. I mean, there were nine other little boys and girls, and Rachel like fell right in the middle, which meant that there were always like other kids to play with. Plus, she loved her new school. But the trauma from those dark years was like impossible to ignore. And Rachel ended up being diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder, which meant that like forming, I'm sure you know this, forming healthy relationships with caregivers was like incredibly hard for her.

• 32:08Ashley Flowers?

  And for a while, nothing seemed to break through until Rachel herself suggested something unexpected. Horses.

• 32:16Speaker 01

  Oh, like equine therapy?

• 32:18Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly. Like six-year-old Rachel likely didn't know that equine therapy was a thing.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:23Ashley Flowers?

  But Kim says she was just drawn to horses. Like she would ask to be around them constantly. So, I mean, Kim's like, why not?

• 32:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:30Ashley Flowers?

  And from the moment that they got Rachel her first horse, there was like no going back. She fell head over heels in love with being a horse owner and it helped her build confidence to just like blossom as a young girl.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Horse girl.

• 32:43Ashley Flowers?

  As a horse girl, I'm sure you know. And listen, this passion stuck with her through middle school and high school. She ended up graduating early at just 16. She earned a full scholarship to Northern Arizona University. And all the while in her free time, she was still riding, still caring for, still working with horses. First her own, and then she was being hired by others to care for theirs. And after graduating from high school, she decided to make these gigs official by like starting her own business with it.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Like a college side hustle?

• 33:12Ashley Flowers?

  No. So Rachel never ended up actually like going to college. She enrolled, she made the arrangements, right? She got that full scholarship, but she was going to begin her freshman year and then like a week before move in, Kim says that Rachel had this like panic attack, like being that far from home suddenly felt super overwhelming to her. So instead of going to college, Rachel told her mom that she was ready to start her life now. Like she'd get her own place, focus on her business. Like if she wanted a degree, like she could go back and do that later. But I mean, it's also pretty rare to like know what you want to do.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:42Ashley Flowers?

  That young. So when Rachel got the offer to live and work at the horse ranch in Queen Creek, clearly she couldn't turn it down. This was her dream job and it only took her 30 minutes away from home.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  So how did things go sideways?

• 33:57Ashley Flowers?

  It sounds like it happened gradually. So the owners of the ranch, Liz Robinson and Amanda Krugan, they didn't respond to us on advice of their attorney. And they wouldn't speak to Kim and Todd's P I either. But our reporter Nicole was able to reach their attorney. So what I'm going to outline is everything I know from Nicole's conversation with their attorney. Her conversation with Kim and then the little we can glean from the police file. So it sounds like things at the ranch started out great. I mean, Rachel got the impression that the owners didn't necessarily know a whole lot about horses. But like, she didn't mind, like, this is her job. She loved to work and she was getting paid to do it. Like, this was amazing. But then things started going wrong.

• 34:39Ashley Flowers?

  In an interview in the police file, which I'm gonna guess is with Amanda, like, I only guess this because her name was left unredacted one time. Like, I don't know if that was a mistake, but in this interview, it says, quote, "Rachel was not keeping up with the agreement regarding training the horses," end quote.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  What was the agreement?

• 34:57Ashley Flowers?

  Nicole asked him, and she gave us this example. So there was a young horse that Rachel was training for riding. And if you know anything about horses, you know that you can't just like hop on one once it's big enough and expect to be able to ride it like.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  It's like a process.

• 35:12Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Long thing.

• 35:13Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, like, it takes a while before someone can get on a horse and like, get on a horse and it be safe. But Kim says that apparently the owners felt like Rachel was moving too slowly. They wanted her to get on this horse like ASAP. Now, Rachel told her mom that she knew the horse wasn't ready, but she was afraid that if she refused, she would get in trouble. So she got on the horse and within like 30 seconds, the horse threw her off. Now, she wasn't injured, but that moment created a trust fracture, basically, between Rachel and the owners. And it feels like things just went downhill from there. Like, there was this one time that Rachel, quote, "caused approximately $10,000 worth of damage to a horse trailer," end quote. There was another time that Rachel needed surgery on her finger after being kicked by a horse,

• 35:58Ashley Flowers?

  which led to a disagreement with the owners about when she could safely return to work. But the final straw came in May of 2022. So Rachel had helped broker a sale, like, one of the horses at the ranch in exchange for three other horses. But only one horse arrived. And so because this deal fell apart, layered on top of everything else, the owners fired Rachel. And so this is right around May 24th, 2022. And this took a huge toll on Rachel's mental health. There's actually. An incident outlined in the police report that says on May 27th, so this is three days later, Rachel took her handgun and drove up to Sedona. And she called the ranch owners, told them she was thinking about suicide.

• 36:41Ashley Flowers?

  Thankfully, they called 911 and police were able to get to her before she did anything. And they convinced her to check herself into Verde Valley Medical Center for treatment. And I want to add that it wasn't just the job that was weighing on Rachel. She and Joe Met were having relationship troubles too. And to make everything worse, the day after Rachel was admitted for treatment, she learned that the owners of the ranch were refusing to return her horse Dash until they received $5,000 that Rachel allegedly owed them for services rendered to Dash while she was living on the property, like things like vet care fees, stuff like that. The owners basically gave Rachel's dad Todd their attorney's number and is like, listen, work it out with him. So hearing that her horse was essentially being held for ransom,

• 37:24Ashley Flowers?

  Rachel decided she needed to like get out of this treatment center ASAP. Like she had to sort everything out. Dash's return, her relationship with Joe Met, moving back to her apartment now that she had nowhere to live. So on June 1st, we're now like right here, this is the first day she's back. She checks out. As we know, the next day we get the pickle intruder. And then after that, we get the shooting.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  So I guess what's the theory that the owners targeted Rachel?

• 37:50Ashley Flowers?

  Basically, and this is what I'm saying, like it's far fetched in my mind.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, especially when they were the ones to call 911 about Rachel's like mental health incidents.

• 37:59Ashley Flowers?

  I know, but for some reason, this is the one theory that got like a ton of traction online and even in the news. Liz and Amanda's attorney said that everybody was taking a Facebook and like dragging his clients' names through the mud, accusing them of Rachel's murder. People started leaving them harassing messages and like calling investigators about them.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  I mean, are these women dangerous? Like I, I guess I'm like missing the jump here.

• 38:24Ashley Flowers?

  So like from what we found, like they both have criminal records, but like mostly for driving infractions, nothing violent.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 38:30Ashley Flowers?

  And Kim said that Rachel never felt like she was in danger at the ranch. It was actually Amanda and Liz who gave Rachel the handgun that she took to Sedona. They gave it to her for protection like earlier on. But because there was so much negativity swirling around the ranch owners with Dash and the job, everyone I think just kind of jumped to this conclusion. Now Liz and Amanda's attorney said that they both spoke to investigators within the first few days of the murder and they were cleared based on alibis. And he also said that he thought the police files were over redacted, which like same. But in his case, if Liz and Amanda really were cleared right away, then I would think that there are lines that could actually like prove their innocence, like in the file, like, why wouldn't we?

• 39:15Ashley Flowers?

  And I think they would even want that.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and with the files being so redacted, it's just keeping Liz and Amanda under public suspicion.

• 39:21Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Did the Hansen ever get dash back? I don't want to like horse call too hard.

• 39:26Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, no, they did. So Liz and Amanda's attorney said that the fee was paid and that the Hansen were able to get dash back, I think it was like a month after Rachel was killed. So this brings me to my third theory, the Gary Bailey theory, AKA Joe Metz's dad.

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• 40:51Speaker 01

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• 41:40Ashley Flowers?

  Remember how I said Rachel and Jomet were having relationship trouble around the time she was fired?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:47Ashley Flowers?

  Well, a lot of that tension centered around Gary, his dad. By all accounts, he and Rachel did not get along. Jomet was extremely close with his dad. And Nicole actually spoke with Jomet's mom, Ava, for this episode. And she said that Jomet didn't have many friends because he and Gary would just do everything together, like to the point where Ava actually felt bad for her other son. Now, things were fine at first when Rachel and Jomet got together, but their relationship progressed pretty fast. Like, eight months after they met, they got engaged. And the closer Rachel and Jomet got, the more Gary had someone to compete for Jomet's attention. And Rachel told her mom, Kim,

• 42:30Ashley Flowers?

  that she felt like Gary was disturbed by the possibility of losing Jomet, so he intentionally would try to cause conflict between them. And to make everything worse, right around the time Rachel and Jomet were getting really serious, Ava filed for divorce from Gary, something that she'd been wanting to do for a long time. And may I take you on a quick side quest?

• 42:54Speaker 01

  You never have to ask for permission, but of course.

• 42:57Ashley Flowers?

  So Ava told us, back in 2015, she had been suspicious Gary was cheating on her. So she put a recording device in his work truck every day for a month. He ran a landscaping business, spent a lot of time riding around his truck. So if something was going down, she knew this is where she would catch wind of it. Girl got more than just wind. She got recordings of Gary on tape cheating on her with the men he employed.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  What?

• 43:25Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so she went to Gary with these recordings being like, I know what you've been doing. I want a divorce. Literally, you can have everything. I just want the kids. But freaking Gary, he's like, oh, that's not me cheating. I knew you were recording, so I staged all of this.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 43:46Ashley Flowers?

  I know. We tried every possible way to reach Gary for this episode, but he never got back to us. But I know from Ava that in response to her request for a divorce, Gary apparently said that he wanted to take Ava to court over it. So not wanting to lose her kids, Ava promised herself that she would stay with Gary until all the kids were adults. Whoop, which brings us to September 2021. Ava was ready to end it and she texted her bishop to like, let him know. But what she didn't know is that when she texted her bishop, she made a group chat with bishop and Gary.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  That's like constantly my worst nightmare.

• 44:27Ashley Flowers?

  And when Gary received that text, dude lost it. Apparently he had this major personality shift and he started acting really strangely. Him and Ava started sleeping in different rooms and Ava said that she heard that Gary was bad mouthing her all over town and at church. Nicole actually spoke to one of these church members. Her name's Jennifer Simmons and she said that Gary's whole temperament changed so much, like he was just angry all the time and constantly ranting that they started referring to him as scary Gary and like avoiding him at all costs. And things just escalated from there.

• 45:06Ashley Flowers?

  In November 2021, there was this one day where Gary recorded himself barging into an apartment that Ava was staying at, saying like awful things about how she was cheating on him and that he was there to catch her having sex. Mind you, Ava was like fully clothed, watching TV in her bedroom. And she called the police after this, but not before Gary sent the video to their entire family and like people from church.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  A video of her watching TV?

• 45:34Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Dude, you're the only one who looks bad in this video, scary Gary.

• 45:40Ashley Flowers?

  I know. So after this incident, that's when Ava got an order of protection against him. Then in December, there was an instance where the Hanson's actually had to kick Gary out of their home because of the way he was speaking about Ava at their dinner table. That was like the first and only time that he was ever in their house. And right after that, Joe Met proposed to Rachel, which apparently just like sent Gary off even more. He started conflating the two women in his head. Ava said that he started calling Ava Rachel and Rachel Ava. And according to what Kim said happened next, it sounds like things might have finally come to a head.

• 46:19Ashley Flowers?

  On April 27th, 2022, this is like just over a month before Rachel would be murdered. Everything boiled over. So Rachel was at a point where she was like fed up with Gary inserting himself into her relationship with Joe Met. So according to Ava, Rachel texted Joe Met an ultimatum. It is either your dad or it's me. The conversation spiraled. Joe Met messaged back that he was tired of life and that he was experiencing suicidal thoughts. So Rachel panicked, tried calling him, but he like wasn't answering, wasn't even answering for his mom either. So Rachel drove to Gary's house to see if Joe Met was there. He wasn't, but Gary was. He was actually in his car in the driveway.

• 47:03Ashley Flowers?

  And at this point, Rachel might've actually been happy to see him because she knew if Joe Met was gonna answer the phone for anyone, it was going-

• 47:10Speaker 01

  It was his dad.

• 47:10Ashley Flowers?

  It was his dad, right. But she asked Gary to call him and Gary's like, no. He refused.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Why?

• 47:16Ashley Flowers?

  Gary's like, well, you know, I don't, like basically he said he didn't take the suicide threat seriously. But like Rachel still was, so she blocked the driveway with the car she was driving, refused to let Gary leave until he would call his son. And what happens next happened fast. Gary put his car in reverse, backed into the car that Rachel was in, tried and failed to pull her out of it, and then gave up and drove away right over the front lawn. Now, when this happened, Rachel called police. And then shortly after they arrived, Joe Met was found, he's safe. But Rachel understandably is like totally shaken up.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:52Ashley Flowers?

  According to the police report, officers found her crying in front of Gary's house, and she recounted the whole confrontation to them, including another chilling detail. She said that day Gary sent her a text that read, "If I ever see you in my house again, I will shoot you in the head." And she said that he had been threatening her for a while. Now, no charges were filed after this, and then Rachel was killed.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  And what is Jomet saying about all this? Like, whose side is he taking?

• 48:25Ashley Flowers?

  He seemed to have been torn down the middle. Like I said, he never got back to us for this episode. But what I do know from his mom Ava is that he and Rachel's relationship got so rocky after this that they actually called off their engagement. And then, as you know, Rachel gets fired. Her mental health declined. She spends some time in that facility. But her first night out, remember, she goes to clean her apartment. But then, rather than staying there or going to her parents, she actually went to Ava's to stay the night with Jomet. And Ava said they basically, just like, she calls it like hitting the reset button. They talked everything out and got to a really good place.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  So that's June 1st.

• 49:05Ashley Flowers?

  June 1st, yes. And Ava said the next day, June 2nd.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Pickle intruder.

• 49:09Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. That day, one of her daughters told Gary about the rekindling, that they're like back together.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 49:16Ashley Flowers?

  And Gary is pissed. Then, there is a part of June 3rd that I haven't told you yet. So, the night of the shooting, Jomet is with Rachel, right?

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Ashley Flowers?

  And he's there till like midnight. Well, here's the interesting part. He wasn't planning to leave. He was actually sleeping shortly before he left. The only reason he left was because he got a call from his dad telling him to come home. Mm-hmm.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Wait, what he, like, why is he telling him to come home in the middle of the night on the same night that Rachel got murdered?

• 49:54Ashley Flowers?

  There is no explanation in the police records.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  That you could see.

• 49:58Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. But we found one somewhere else. So, remember that woman Jennifer who went to church with Gary?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  The woman who gave us the scary Gary moniker?

• 50:07Ashley Flowers?

  Thank you, Jennifer. So, she said that Gary told the whole congregation why he called on the morning of June 5th at church. Apparently, Scary Gary showed up to church by himself, went up to the pulpit to, you're gonna love this phrase, give testimony. And he allegedly said of the night before, quote, "I called Jomet to come home because the Holy Spirit told me so, and it saved his life," end quote.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  So... So he called Jomet home because he had some kind of revelation?

• 50:40Ashley Flowers?

  That's what Jennifer said, yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  I still don't understand the reason for the call, though. Like, did he just say, "Come home"? And Jomet is just so loyal to his dad still that he leaves, no questions asked? Or was it something like, "I know something bad's gonna happen, get home", and then Jomet just left his fiancee to fend for herself?

• 50:58Ashley Flowers?

  Like, and if that's it, like, this would've been after an intruder had been there the night before. You just changed the locks.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Right, like, when she's already scared and, like, maybe needs someone there. Also, if it's really the Holy Spirit speaking to Gary, why didn't he mention anything about Rachel?

• 51:13Ashley Flowers?

  Literally, Jennifer said that she asked him that, and he said, "I only received revelation about my son, not her." Yeah.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:22Ashley Flowers?

  Listen, the more conversations people at church had with Gary, the more suspicious they became of him. We haven't been able to corroborate this, but Jennifer said that many of the women in her ward called the police to report him acting strangely.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  So then that means the police looked into him.

• 51:38Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, he's actually mentioned on the second page of the police chronology report from the night of Rachel's death, which, in the timeline, is before Rachel even had been pronounced dead. An officer noted the death threats from Gary that Rachel had reported weeks before. But get this, according to Kim and Ava, to this day, Gary has never been brought in for questioning. Now, Nicole asked, like, how they knew this, and Kim said that she had asked the chief of police, face to face, why Gary was never interviewed, and he said, "Because we can't force somebody to talk."

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Have they tried?

• 52:12Ashley Flowers?

  Kim said that the police told her that they left a phone message, they've tried to follow him, they've reached out in all these, like, different ways, and he's just never responded. Much like, by the way, we reached out to him in all these different ways, and Gary has never responded to us. And we tried phone, mail, texts. Nicole even stopped by his church in Gilbert, but we have not been able to make contact with him either.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  I mean, if you have nothing to hide, why not clear your name?

• 52:39Ashley Flowers?

  Especially because, according to Ava, Gary couldn't have been the one to pull the trigger.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 52:45Ashley Flowers?

  So she told us that Gary was home with their daughter the night of the shooting.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  All night?

• 52:52Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know, but like, that's what Ava told us. And listen, I don't think she has a reason to want to give this guy an alibi. So I don't think she's covering for him. In fact, basically in the same breath, she was saying, he couldn't have pulled the trigger. But she was also telling us that Gary had a history of talking about hitmen. And Jennifer from his church backs this up too. They both told us that he would go around basically telling people that if you ever want to like off someone, the best thing to do would be to hire someone who is really hard to track. And like, the case would just be impossible to solve.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Cool, cool. So let me just play this out for a sec. If Gary hired someone to kill Rachel, where does the intruder the night before come in?

• 53:35Ashley Flowers?

  All I can put together is that maybe the first night was like a trial run or like a super inexperienced hitmen.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Like one that would use a silencer, but then kick down a door?

• 53:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, like maybe, I mean, maybe the first one wasn't even like a hitman at all. Maybe the first one was someone Gary knew, then like they go in.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Realize they're not a hitman.

• 53:58Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, Rachel wakes up and they're like, yelp, yeah, in over my skis.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  But also brought pickles.

• 54:02Ashley Flowers?

  Dude, the pickles. I am obsessed with the pickles. I was trying to look up like, was this a symbol? Like, what could this mean? Like, I even made Nicole find out exactly what kind of pickles. Like, and Kim's like, it's a medium sized, standard jar of pickles. Kosher dill, in case you're wondering.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 54:19Ashley Flowers?

  And it didn't look like they had been opened.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Wait, so Kim saw the pickles herself?

• 54:23Ashley Flowers?

  Oh my God. I have to tell you about this part. So I think this encapsulates so well why Kim, Rachel's mom, has lost so much faith in the investigation and those leading it. So Kim knew about the pickle jar because after that person came into Rachel's apartment, the first night-

• 54:42Speaker 01

  She's like, "Hey Mom, this weird thing happened and also they left pickles."

• 54:45Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, here's this super weird detail. Well, Kim said in the days after the shooting, when her and Todd were told by police that they could finally go get Rachel's things from the apartment, they opened the door and the pickle jar is just like sitting right there on the counter.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Police didn't collect it.

• 55:02Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, Kim and Todd at the time assumed that they must have like at least like fingerprinted it or something because like by then they told police the story of the person who came in the night before and left the pickles. So they're assuming police, you know, did the bare minimum.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, did their job.

• 55:17Ashley Flowers?

  Right, like fingerprinted it to see what strange person was in her place.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:21Ashley Flowers?

  So Kim just like took it home along with Rachel's clothing, which by the way was also left behind. And the jar sat in her garage for a while until she ultimately decided that it was time to throw it away. But Kim has come to regret that now because she told Nicole that in one recent conversation with police, she asked them about the pickle jar and they looked right at her and they said, "What pickle jar?"

• 55:47Speaker 01

  You've got to be kidding me.

• 55:49Ashley Flowers?

  Nope. They said that they never saw a pickle jar.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  What do you mean never saw one? There was nothing else in the apartment. It was literally just her bed and pickles.

• 56:01Ashley Flowers?

  Which this started to make us feel like maybe we were losing our minds or like the whole pickle thing got conflated with something else over the years, like maybe people are mistaken, like we just couldn't make sense of it. Why would you not take the one thing that might be evidence in an apartment where you have barely anything to work with?

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, literally nothing.

• 56:20Ashley Flowers?

  So, our amazing reporter Nicole culled through everything that we have from Gilbert PD, files, blurred body cam footage, and there are no mention of pickles at all. Except, God bless this tenacious little reporter, there is one barely audible offhanded comment caught at the very end of one officer's police body cam as he's walking through Rachel's apartment. And I've got it here for you to see.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Watch the blood on the floor. Very empty. This is when the door was closed. Right, it's kind of weird. Kind of a weird thing to ask for, huh? No pickles.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  No pickles.

• 57:07Ashley Flowers?

  No pickles. Now, here's the tricky part. I don't know the date of this video. And Gilbert PD wouldn't give us the date. But it must have been after the Hanson's took the pickle jar home, because Kim said that in the empty apartment, it was like impossible to miss.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  And yet, we're here.

• 57:28Ashley Flowers?

  Listen, I don't even know how important the pickle jar is to this investigation. But now, we will never know.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  I mean, at the very least, it could have helped identify the first intruder.

• 57:39Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and by the way, speaking of other identifiable things, when the shooter kicked in Rachel's bedroom door, they left a pretty clear partial shoe print. Like, did police do anything with that? I mean, they left the door there. It's not like they took it. So I don't know. And listen, this is my call out to all the sneaker heads. Like, come out and tell me if you recognize this pattern on the door. But you can see, like, all of this. Like, this is what makes Kim worried that she'll never know who killed her daughter. Kim said Gilbert Police told her that they have exhausted every lead. But even Justin, the P I., doesn't know what Gilbert PD is up to, if anything. And he is probably the closest with the department of anyone that we spoke to. According to him, if this case is gonna be solved,

• 58:23Ashley Flowers?

  it's because someone courageous is going to come forward with information, which is why Kim wanted us to share Rachel's story with crime junkies. Coming up on Four Years, Kim's greatest fear is that Rachel's story will be forgotten. It's actually why she created Rachel's Rescue, which is a dog and puppy rescue in her daughter's memory to keep Rachel's story alive. We're actually gonna link out to it in the show notes if you're in Arizona and looking for a new furry family member. Kim wants people to keep talking about Rachel, to know her case, and most importantly, to speak up if they know something, anything about her murder. So if you have even the smallest bit of information that could help move Rachel's

• 59:06Ashley Flowers?

  case in the right direction, there are lots of ways to come forward. You can reach out to the Gilbert Police Department at 480-503-6500. Or if you prefer to remain anonymous, you can reach out to Silent Witness, 480-948-6377. The posted reward for information is now up to $20,000. And listen, if you feel more comfortable or have any trouble reaching out to Gilbert PD, you can reach out to Justin Yentes at Arizona Investigative Associates. He's at 602-252-2474.

• 59:52Ashley Flowers?

  You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  And you can follow us on Instagram, at Crime Junkie Podcast.

• 1:00:00Ashley Flowers?

  We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. And stick around, because we've got some good.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Okay, Ashley, given how much of today's episode was built on one of our amazing reporter, Nicole's investigative work, I couldn't not pick this good story. I think you're gonna love it. Hello, Crime Junkie team. I have a bit of a story incoming, and this might classify better as fan mail, but I feel the need to share this with you. I've been listening to the podcast since the very early days. I remember when Prophet of the Month and the Good segments were introduced, and have never been able to press pause since then. Because of this, I have noticed the Nina effect.

• 1:01:01Ashley Flowers?

  Nina, is that how I swear more?

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Ever since the Crime Junkie team expanded enough to be able to have reporters making the calls and knocking on doors more than the production team could afford to in the early days, the production team, you.

• 1:01:16Ashley Flowers?

  Me.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  There has been a humongous shift in the amount and precision of information you guys are able to cover for each case. In my head, I call this the Nina effect because every time I'm in awe of something that you guys managed to find out, it is almost always preceded by the words, "Thanks to our reporter, Nina." Getting a bit personal, even though I now identify as non-binary, I was raised as a girl who always wanted to find out everything about everything. I loved writing and asking questions and was often discouraged from digging into things. Seeing the very real impact of Nina's work, both through the episodes and the real world, case-solving help they led to, all thanks to a determined and powerful woman who will not stop digging, has been leaving me awestruck for years now.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  I am one of the lucky few people who already found a field they love, and I'm in college on my way to becoming a university professor, which has been my dream for a long time. But I find myself always thinking that, were it not for that, I would want to be just like Nina. A few other crime junkies said the same when I talked to them about this. I just wanted to let you all know that aside from the wonderful stuff you do daily and the insane amount of help you provided to so many over the years, you also inspire people who are halfway across the world to such a degree that sometimes they even question their chosen career track.

• 1:02:31Ashley Flowers?

  Yes.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Thank you, Crime Junkie team, and thank you, Nina. Keep being yourselves and therefore awesome. With love, a starry-eyed crime junkie.

• 1:02:39Ashley Flowers?

  Has Nina seen this?

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 1:02:41Ashley Flowers?

  Oh, my God, I have to tell her. There is like, it's so true. Like, I was just telling someone last night, I was like, if you, I'm sure people who've been with us are like, yeah, it's the same show, but if you listen to episode one and now, this is not the same show.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:02:55Ashley Flowers?

  And now we have, whereas Nina was, she was our OG.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Like, boots-on-the-ground girlie.

• 1:02:59Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, we've got like 15 Ninas now.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:03Ashley Flowers?

  Like Nicole and like all the other reporters.

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  And Taylor and Taylor and everybody else, so.

• 1:03:08Ashley Flowers?

  We got a great team, you guys.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just love that one.

• 1:03:10Ashley Flowers?

  Always looking for more great people, too. Audiocheck.com.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Join the Nina. I'm gonna do Audiocheck.com/jointheninaeffect.

• 1:03:16Ashley Flowers?

  The Nina Effect.

• 1:03:20Ashley Flowers?

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. I think Chuck would approve.

• 1:03:29Speaker 03

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir, and that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather around, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.