Elizabeth Day Opens Up About Heartbreak, Miscarriage & Failure

This week I am joined by Elizabeth Day – an English novelist, journalist and broadcaster. She was a feature writer for The Observer for the best part of a decade and currently writes for You magazine. Elizabeth has written an incredible six books and is a fellow podcaster with her critically acclaimed podcast ‘How to Fail with Elizabeth Day’ where she interviews guests who discuss what their failures taught them. The Podcast has been celebrated by celebrities, literary luminaries and is listened to by millions of people worldwide. It is with no surprise the podcast has gone on to win Day the Rising Star Award at the 2019 British Podcast Awards. Being vulnerable is something we all find incredibly hard to do but in this episode Elizabeth was willing to be vulnerable open and honest about her truth, trauma and some of her most testing times. Follow Elizabeth: Twitter - https://twitter.com/elizabday Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/elizabday https://www.elizabethdayonline.co.uk Support after miscarriage - https://www.tommys.org/baby-loss-support/miscarriage-information-and-support/support-after-miscarriage Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  Elizabeth Day is a world renowned podcast host. She's a bestselling author. She's a successful journalist.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  I felt like a failure, but I probably wasn't. It was what I'd been told to feel. I've had countless failed relationships and it sucks. Like heartbreak, there is no pain like heartbreak. I now realise that I learnt something very instructive from each one of those relationships and from the fact that they ended. It taught me something that I needed to know about myself. Infertility and miscarriage is not a mishap. Like for people who experience it, it's a tragedy over which they have no control. And the idea that I was exploiting it to make a full time career out of it was so insulting because I know how fucking painful and traumatic it is to go through.

• 0:49Steven Bartlett?

  Being vulnerable, something I think we all find incredibly hard to do. And after hearing my guest's story today, I had tears in my eyes maybe three or four times. And that's because she is willing to be vulnerable and honest and open about her truth, her trauma and the things she's learnt from her most testing times. Elizabeth Day is a world renowned podcast host. She's a bestselling author. She's a successful journalist. Honestly, she's quite frankly, one of the most wonderful, smart, lovely people I've ever had the privilege of doing this podcast with. In fact, today, one of the issues I had with this podcast was we agree on so much that it's hard to play devil's advocate with her. It was hard to challenge her views because so many of them represented mine. It felt like she was reading out of my book.

• 1:35Steven Bartlett?

  I think that's powerful because she helped me build on my ideas. And some of these ideas are controversial, for some people maybe too controversial. It is remarkable how much societal expectations can cripple your chance of happiness. And I genuinely believe that if we had more people in the world like Elizabeth, who were willing to say what she says today, then maybe that wouldn't be the case. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 2:12Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things that I wrote recently, which after doing a little bit of reading about your story and your journey, really, really resonated with me, was this idea that society's expectations of how your life is supposed to be going will fuck you up. And when I think about, you know, you've written this amazing book about, called Philosophy, about failure. I was thinking, what is objectively, like, what is failure? And my conclusion was that failure is like a byproduct of social expectations, and as is success. So, could you talk to me a little bit about how social expectations have made you feel like a failure?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah. I realised I had to define failure after I had launched a podcast called How to Fail, and after I had written a book called How to Fail. And then I kept getting asked this very reasonable question, and I realised I'd never come up with a satisfying definition for me. So the definition I came up with in Philosophy is that failure is what happens when life doesn't go according to plan, which totally taps into what you've just asked me about. Because then you need to start to think, well, where does the plan come from? Is it genuinely my plan? Is it genuinely what will make me happy? Or is it what I've been told I should expect my life to be? Because when I looked at some

• 3:35Speaker 01

  of my metrics for how my life should be, and I put that in quotation marks, it kind of came from like 1980s rom-coms, and patriarchal society and conditioning, and the idea that I'd been raised in the 80s to be a nice, pleasant, pliable girl, whereas boys were enabled to be mischievous, and that was seen as kind of cute and charming. And that led to me being an inveterate people pleaser, which I know is something that a lot of people have in this kind of industry. And it also led to me imagining that I wanted to be married and have children. And that's what I tried to do. And in my 30s, I did get married to the wrong person. I ended up getting divorced, and I tried but failed to have babies and went through various fertility treatments that were...

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Emotionally devastating in various ways. And it got to a point when I was thirty six divorced, didn't have children, where I really did feel like a failure. And the reason I felt like a failure is because that's what society had conditioned me to believe of myself. Because actually, after I'd got over the pain and the grief caused by that seminal relationship ending and by all of the IVF and coming to terms with my first miscarriage and all of that, I actually felt strong for having withstood it. And I actually felt kind of liberated too, because I had no plan for the future. And having no plan for the future can be terrifying, and it can also be this enormous

• 5:05Speaker 01

  opportunity to change your life and to redefine it according to who you really are, once you've stripped back that pretense. So that's one way in which I felt like a failure, but I probably wasn't. It was what I'd been told to feel.

• 5:21Steven Bartlett?

  So I wanna, I wanna like pick around this a little bit because I can resonate with this tremendously. In fact, that's why my book has the name it does is because I was conditioned as a black kid who was broke to believe that the thing that would make me a success was becoming this happy sexy millionaire with a Range Rover. And so when I wrote in the front page of my diary, that, you know, that's a kid from Africa who in Africa had nothing but was, you know, my family were happy. Bring that kid into a context or a con, yeah, a context where the context is telling me that unless you're this, you should feel like shit. That's why as a kid I was like, well, I need to be happy sexy. To be fair, if I'd wrote something else, it would have been white, straight hair. Right? I was relaxing my hair chemically from the age of about twelve till about sixteen.

• 6:06Steven Bartlett?

  So my hair was straight. But I wanna, I wanna go back to this, this point about society telling you what you should want. Did you ever figure out what you actually wanted?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Such a good question. Also, thank you for sharing what you just did.

• 6:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Because I know that, yeah, you believe like I do that vulnerability is the source of connection, true connection. And that was really beautiful. I think I have figured out who I am now, but I sit here as a forty two year old, having only just figured that out. And the reason I figured it out is because of all of those things that went wrong. Those relationships that ended, that imploded, the jobs that weren't right for me. Like, that was what prompted me to do the soul searching. And I'm a big believer in things happening for a reason, the universe unfolding as is intended. Even if you can't make something meaningful as and when it's happening, because it's traumatic and it's devastating, I tend to believe that there will be some meaning in there in the

• 7:07Speaker 01

  fullness of time. There'll be something that I needed to learn. I wish sometimes I'd learnt the lessons more quickly, because I believe I kept being sent the same lessons until I really, really learnt the thing that I needed to learn. But I do think now that I'm aware of who I am because I've redefined my notion of success. So in the past, my success was not necessarily being a happy, sexy millionaire, although I wouldn't say no. In the past, I had a very different contextual upbringing from yours. And I'm immensely privileged in many ways. And one of the ways in which I am privileged

• 7:50Speaker 01

  is that there was a lot of creativity and cultural discussion in my home. Like, I was surrounded by books. I was never taught to feel that that was odd, that I read all the time, or that I wanted to be an author, even though there was no one in my family who did that. So I had those kind of conversations. And that's an enormously wealthy way to be brought up. And even though we didn't have that much money, that was very wealthy. And so for me then, success was about doing well at school. It was doing well academically. And I realised that when I did well at an exam, I got approval. And that, for me, became a substitute for self-worth. So for a long time, I was on this feedback loop where I

• 8:32Speaker 01

  was like, if only I could just do better and do better at more things, eventually I'll feel I'm worthwhile. And I was on a hiding to nothing, because actually, I was outsourcing my sense of self to everyone else's opinions of me and to kind of external validation. And I've now realised, and it's taken me a long time to realise this, That my only validation that means anything can come from within and from my cornerstone relationships. So like the four or five people I love most in the world, whose opinion actually means something to me. That's what it is. Now, having worked that out, how can I bring my authentic self into every area of my life?

• 9:14Speaker 01

  And that's why the podcast has failed and the books about failure have genuinely been such a gift to me. Because they've enabled me to connect with a really big audience whilst being my true self, whilst taking the risk to be vulnerable. And that for me is success. Being my authentic self in integrated self. So like professionally, personally, and when I'm asleep, like I'm all in my friendship group or when I'm stroking my cat, it's always the same me.

• 9:44Steven Bartlett?

  I talk in, so I hate fucking plugging my own book, but it's, the reason I'm doing it is because we very much think the same. And one of the chapters in my book is about making your, your context smaller and healthier. In an age of social media where I can compare myself to a billion people who are all filtering themselves in fake. I implore like people to make their context, which is what you've described, these like four or five people, much smaller, like unfollowing me or the toxic people in your like comparison bubble or whatever, and make it tight and healthy. That's so hard these days.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  It's so hard.

• 10:17Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know, like how, I'd almost, I'd almost say it's impossible if you're on social media platforms and following like the Kardashians or whatever. How does, how does one do that and also stay on social media like?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Well, I need to ask you this. So I'm going to ask you this after I've tried to answer it because I'm, I'm, you have to deal with it on such a massive scale and I'm just like a micro tiny thing in comparisons.

• 10:42Steven Bartlett?

  No, I don't think that's fair.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  But the way. To answer that truly honestly, I'm still a huge work in progress in that respect. Because I have the capacity to be undone by criticism. I find, I take it really, really personally.

• 10:58Steven Bartlett?

  Tell me how personally. Give me an example.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  So personally.

• 11:00Steven Bartlett?

  Give me an example.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Okay, um, two recent examples. One is that I went, um, a few weeks ago, I went on a lockdown walk with a friend of mine who I hadn't seen for over a year, socially distanced. It was my daily exercise I was allowed to do with one person from another household. And I posted a picture of us socially distanced in a park on Instagram, being like, you know, this was really good for my mental health, such an enjoyable walk. And someone commented saying, I can't, this is so irresponsible of you to post this because hospitals are overwhelmed with COVID patients. And you're encouraging people just to go out and about. And I was like, hang on a second. I was like, that's where I go with it. I was like, oh my God, I've done something wrong. I've

• 11:46Speaker 01

  done something wrong. And these poor NHS doctors who are working and I've just kicked them in the face metaphorically. And I was, and I had this process of like, I've done something wrong. I'm a terrible person. I feel really bad about it. What can I do? Should I reply? I go through that. That's the first place I go. And then I tell myself, no, leave it 24 hours. Leave it 24 hours before you say anything. And then I just feel I have this like harness that settles around me for a day of feeling unsettled and a bit worried and anxious. And are other people thinking that? Is there a whole group of people out there that they're like meeting up behind closed doors to discuss how awful I am?

• 12:31Steven Bartlett?

  Your cancer campaign like?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. And it's ridiculous. It's one, yeah, awful. And I saw other people had liked that comment. I was like, oh my God, they hate me too. I'm. And basically, I just have to sit with it for a bit and it helps me to talk about it, even though I sound completely doolally, but I do, I'm lucky enough to have an incredible resource in my husband, who is just not on social media at all. And so it's a very kind of sane mind bring to it. And my best friend, who's a psychotherapist.

• 13:01Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  And I spoke to her about it and she was like, okay, where I would go with it is, what pain is that person in that they've lashed out in this way? And that's very helpful because it encourages you to feel compassion instead of got at and anger. I mean, that's one tiny example. Another example was philosophy got reviewed in a couple of places. And I, you know, I am really proud of that book, but it's a physically small book. I mean, it's got a lot of good content in it. Don't get me wrong. And as you know, it's hard to make big ideas accessible, but I did not expect it to get reviewed in the national press, but it did. And it got reviewed by people who wanted to find fault with it,

• 13:42Speaker 01

  who did not like the fact that I seemed to be exploiting failure for my own success, which is absolutely not the case. Like, I want to share the stuff that I've learned. That's all I want to do.

• 13:58Steven Bartlett?

  Exploiting failure for your own success. Fucking hell.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Anyway, so that was, that was just like, I went down a rabbit hole of looking at the reviewers Instagram and all of that sort of stuff, which is terrible. Anyway, I know I shouldn't go down these rabbit holes of self-loathing and most of the time I'm able not to, but just occasionally, if I'm feeling low or particularly sensitive that day, it will affect me.

• 14:22Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  And my tactic for protecting myself is absolutely, as you said, as you said, to unfollow and mute, to curate my feed, to keep my phone on airplane mode in the morning. So my phone is not the first thing I look at. When I'm writing, I put my phone on airplane mode as well, and I find it a real relief. And also to try and practice the art of generosity and to believe in abundance, because I think a lot of my mindset around competitiveness or envy is because I believe in a scarcity of resources and I believe success is scarce. And I believe money is scarce and love is scarce and we all have to compete for it. Yeah.

• 15:05Steven Bartlett?

  Because there is some game.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Exactly. And actually, just flipping the switch and being like, no.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  The world is abundant and everyone's success can mirror your own. Like, and if you give and if you come at life from a generous place, then hopefully that will feed back to you. So those are my tactics.

• 15:27Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  How do you deal with it?

• 15:30Steven Bartlett?

  Um, so I think it's important to be honest as well. I'm, I've read a lot about this, this topic. I've spoken to psychologists. I've sat here with guests and, you know, asked them about this. And this is probably maybe a liberating, but also a terrifying answer. Even I have exactly what you described.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  I feel so much better.

• 15:48Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what's funny? The reason, when I was laughing, you went, you said to me, you went, oh, I know it sounds cuckoo. I was laughing because it's, you were, you were telling me my life.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 15:56Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean? Like, I will, I will get one comment on one thing and I'll be like, let's look at this Jonathan Davis and find out, you know what I mean? I'll fucking find out who his family are. It'll be just, it's just something flippant comment. Surrounded by a thousand positive ones, but I'm like, I'm gonna find this guy's birth records and we're gonna find out. You know what I mean? Like private investigator. And the way you described that feeling of like, it bothers you. You're like, shall I respond? Sometimes I respond. I'm like, then I delete it super fast because I'm like, you know, you rise above. And then I've also felt in the bigger moments where something more controversial has happened, I've also felt that like thing around me for about like 48 hours.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:34Steven Bartlett?

  That feeling of like anxiousness.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:36Steven Bartlett?

  Like you described, like, wait, does, is this, does everyone, you think all your, all my friends that are quiet, they all think that I've, I'm finished. You know what I mean? And they're not saying anything.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Am I adopted?

• 16:45Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So here's my, here's my, here's my productive conclusion though, is one of the things we're not taught to do is to use social media in a conscious way. So we like sign up and then we just go with the algorithm. And the algorithm will be like, be pretty or, and they'll clap for you. Good, good. And then it'll be like, you do this. And, and we, and then it will tell us to follow lots of people who we compare ourselves to and create this really unhealthy context in which we, our self-worth is clearly our, you know, achievement, success and beauty is clearly less than all of these people. And because it's so unconscious, we become a victim to the algorithms and to this, this like awful toxic experiment. So the answer for me is just to use social media in a much more conscious way. You've described it there, which is like unfollow people that are bad for you. Turn off your notifications.

• 17:31Steven Bartlett?

  When I, on Twitter, when I do a tweet and it goes like semi-viral, I know that for the next 48 hours, I'm gonna get all kinds of Twitter eggs and all, so I just mute it straight away. I did it last night. I did a tweet, start getting all these responses, hit mute and it's disappeared.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:46Steven Bartlett?

  I don't see any responses.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Exactly what I do.

• 17:48Steven Bartlett?

  And this is the like conscious, you know, effort that I have to make to keep my context healthy and to protect myself.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you know, I had a really interesting experience on Twitter recently and it's fascinating because I think I care less about Twitter. Because I don't feel as myself on Twitter. I suppose because I'm super conscious of how you can send out an ill-fought tweet one day and like lose everything the next. Instagram, rightly or wrongly, just feels safer. It feels more like a warm bath, whereas Twitter's like a kind of shower of hail a lot of the time. And but recently on Twitter, someone messaged me saying, oh, that thing that was in the Times Magazine about you was so unfair. And I hadn't read it. And I then went and looked at the article and it was an interview with another author.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  And the journalist had said, had compared this person to me and a couple of other people and said, you know, now there's this trend, I'm paraphrasing, for people to use their mishaps and exploit them and turn them into full-time careers with non-stop webinars and Instagram lives. And she said like, like Elizabeth Day with infertility. And I was like, that sits so badly with me because infertility and miscarriages are not a mishap. Like for people who experience it, it's a tragedy over which they have no control. And the idea that I was exploiting it to make a full-time career out of it with non-stop webinars, and I've done a webinar in my life, by the way, was so insulting to me because I had a career apart from that and before that.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  And it's that I choose to use my platform to talk about something that a great deal of people feel a great deal of misplaced shame over. And that was one example, in fact, the only one I can think of where I did respond because it was so. Deeply, deeply personal to who I was and I felt an attack on my integrity and a complete misreading of what I was trying to do. And I tweeted something that was really calm and that was like, you know, I refute this for these reasons. And it was an excellent lesson in how sometimes it is important to stand up for something. I had an outpouring of incredible support from other people who I'd never met, which meant a great deal

• 20:05Speaker 01

  to me. The journalist in question had the grace afterwards to apologize, but they changed the wording in the online piece. And if I hadn't sent out that tweet, there would be no record of it having happened. And these things are really important to call out sometimes. So I think when it's an attack on the integrity of who you are and what you do, then sometimes it is worth drawing breath and saying something calmly and just stating your position.

• 20:30Steven Bartlett?

  And in that case as well, you're the courage, shall I say, to speak about, to have that vulnerability, creates a culture where more people will speak out. And it's that, and that is so powerful and helpful for so many other people who are going through that and can't, and can't find a voice that they can relate to and, you know, create that sense of understanding by, by hearing your stories. Same with the mental health conversation over the last 10 years. If people weren't speaking about it, the place we'd be in is quite terrifying to think of. And you wouldn't say those people have exploited it, right? So it's just a, I mean, it's such a nonsense thing for someone to write that I don't actually don't want to spend too much time talking about it.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 21:09Steven Bartlett?

  So let's talk about people pleasing.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:12Steven Bartlett?

  You said you're a people pleaser.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, I'm a reformed people pleaser.

• 21:16Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so you used to be.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Now I don't give a fuck what you think, Stephen.

• 21:18Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, shit. Okay.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  I really do. Yes. So I, like many women of my age, was raised in the eighties and early nineties in a culture where it was still very, very gender stereotyped. I mean, we've come so far in the last decade, I think, in understanding that. But as a result, I always thought that my worth as a person was predicated on Keeping other people happy. Yeah. So I got into a series of long term monogamous relationships from the age of nineteen to thirty six, like that, the biggest gap between those relationships was like a month. You're joking. No, because I was like, who am I unless I'm making someone else happy, unless I'm being

• 22:04Speaker 01

  someone else's perfect partner, unless I'm, I'm trying to second guess what they might want for dinner. And when they ask me like, where do I want to go for lunch? I don't know. Where would you like to go? Like, that was my life. It was ridiculous. And it manifested itself at work as well. I was always the person who said yes to overtime, yes to the commissions that no one else wanted, because I thought eventually I'll be rewarded. And I got a staff feature writer job at The Observer, a Sunday newspaper in the UK when I was twenty nine, and I was the youngest feature writer there. And so I felt really intimidated. And so part of my constantly saying yes and showing willing was to try and fit in and be accepted.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  And actually, you just become an easily exploitable asset. And I realised after eight years of that job, that I was never going to be moved anywhere. I did ask, I asked for like different roles, different challenges, and the answer was always no. And it was because I was, I was doing too much where I was. Like, why would they want to move me? I was providing them with an excellent service where I was. I was making myself too indispensable. And I was absolutely refusing to complain. That's what I was gonna say, you weren't gonna complain. Never, I never asked for a pay rise, Stephen. I mean, which is, actually makes me feel slightly sick now, looking back, because I am a feminist and I do believe

• 23:27Speaker 01

  women should ask for the pay that they deserve. But I didn't, I was too intimidated. And ultimately, I think people pleasing can start from a desire to be nice and to think of others. And that's a really beautiful thing. But taken to its extreme, which is where I would put myself, it actually becomes very selfish, because you never take the time to know who you truly are. And that leads you into situations and relationships that you shouldn't be in because you're not fully giving yourself, you're giving a version of perfection to someone that is never fully real.

• 24:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  So I never felt able to show who I really was and and that's the state of mind I got married in and little wonder that it ended.

• 24:13Steven Bartlett?

  Is that why you think it ended?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Part of the, um, part of the reason, like, I definitely found it very difficult to find my voice for a long time.

• 24:24Steven Bartlett?

  What does that mean in a relationship?

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Um, it meant that I was extremely conflict avoidant. So instead of saying how I felt about something, I would turn it inwards and be silent and then get mildly depressed. Uh, so that's a difficult person to be with. They don't seem difficult at all because they're like, look, I've cooked you dinner and I've got all your favorite things and I've come up with this perfectly thoughtful gift for Christmas. But that's all like distraction. It's all like, just don't look at the mess I actually am inside. Um, so I had to do a lot of work on myself. It was part of the reason. It wasn't the whole reason. Um, there was a whole part of other stuff that I can't go into because it involves someone else. But that was definitely like, I do think that

• 25:12Speaker 01

  when a relationship ends, you have to look at yourself and be really honest about how you played into that dysfunctional dynamic to avoid making the same mistakes.

• 25:22Steven Bartlett?

  I'm not in a relationship. I've actually really struggled with relationships. And I was thinking about this last night when I was working out, I was thinking, much of the reason why I've struggled is because I think I'm probably too selfish, right? I think that I'm uncompromising as well. And it's something that I've tried over the last couple of years to really look like defeat in myself, which is in in work, I'm required to be a certain type of person to succeed, which is like quite certain about the right approach, focused, hardworking. Um, a lot of things in the professional environment aren't actually democratic. They're like the big decisions, they they let you, the buck stops with you. Um, in relationships, um, communication and compromise and being

• 26:02Steven Bartlett?

  more democratic in things and really trying to meet, um, someone else's needs are the, I guess, the attributes for success.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:12Steven Bartlett?

  Communication, let's talk about that. How important is it to, from your experiences in relationships that have, you know, gone, done well by your definition and ended by your definition, to communicate how you're feeling and what your needs are?

• 26:26Speaker 01

  It's so important. It's everything. I'm very interested in what you just said there. So I'm going to come back to that question you asked me. The, the fact that you have, that you believe you might need different modes of communication in business and in personal relationships.

• 26:40Steven Bartlett?

  Slightly different. And this is like super controversial because, because people will think that, so communication is incredibly important in my professional life.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:50Steven Bartlett?

  It's actually the things, things like, so in my, in my professional life, if I don't want to do something, or if I think it's a bad use of my time, I say, no, don't, don't do it, cancel it. Whereas in my romantic life.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  You can't do that.

• 27:04Steven Bartlett?

  If I don't want to do, I don't want to go down and walk, walk in the park, but I've got to be like, fine. Do you know what I mean? And, and I can be, I'm super, in my, in my professional life, I'm a radical about how I spend my time. Cause I, cause you get so many things calling for your time. You have to be like, nope, nope, nope, cancel it, move it, nope, no, no. In my professional life, it's like, what do you want to do? Do you want to cook for two hours? Fine, you know, and, and my brain's like wasted, is that an efficient use of time? You know?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  So interesting because in your professional life as well, you're in a position where you need to know the answers. Someone will come to you for a decision you need to know.

• 27:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  You need to be like a benign dictator and just be like, right, this, that. And, and therefore do you think that in your personal life, you don't think it's okay to say, I don't know. I don't know if I want to cook.

• 27:48Steven Bartlett?

  It's like a compromise of like not doing things I don't want to do.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Just don't do things you don't want to do. This is so interesting. So my, my now partner, husband is amazing and he's a CEO. And he said to me in the early days of our relationship, I never do anything I don't want to do. And I was like, selfish. I was like, I'm a people pleaser, so this is never going to work. But. He's the knock on effect of that. Basically, what he was saying is, I'm honest. And I will tell you if I don't want to do something. So if I say yes, that yes is really meaningful. And that's such a way, like it's such a weight off my mind, because I'm not having to second guess whether he really means it. When he says he'll come for lunch with my family or whatever.

• 28:34Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  I know that he's invested in that. So actually.

• 28:38Steven Bartlett?

  I'm your husband for a second.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 28:41Steven Bartlett?

  I go, you say to me, I'd love to go and walk in the park. And I go, nah, I want to sit on my laptop and send these emails. And then five minutes and 10 minutes later, you go, oh, I would love to cook with you. And he goes, no, I want to watch YouTube videos about SpaceX.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'm your wife and I say, I completely understand that because you're having a really heavy week at work. I'd really like to go to the park because I really want to spend quality time with you. And it would make me feel sad if we didn't do that. Then what would you say?

• 29:08Steven Bartlett?

  I'd say yes, yeah.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  There you go. And do you think you'd want to say yes?

• 29:11Steven Bartlett?

  Of course I would, yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 29:13Steven Bartlett?

  Of course. It's just, I don't know why I always fail on this thing. I just think the amount of time and attention, my previous partners have asked of me, I've not been able to deliver. And I'm like, I will go, I'll text maybe once a day when I'm in my, when I'm in like the tornado of the business.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're so like Justin.

• 29:31Steven Bartlett?

  Is that right? And like, it doesn't mean I don't love you. It means that I'm in a mild crisis, which I can't tell you about because I haven't got time to like divulge all of my bullshit. So.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  But sorry, how, you're really young, aren't you? How old are you?

• 29:45Steven Bartlett?

  Twenty, twenty eight now.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  And you're dating your age group, I'm assuming.

• 29:51Steven Bartlett?

  Typically a little bit younger, like two years younger.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  That it's, that's very difficult. It's so difficult dating in your twenties anyway, full stop. But when you're you, and you're basically living the life and you have the wisdom of a 45 year old, that's very difficult because the other person hasn't had that life experience yet to know.

• 30:10Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, you're so right. You're so right. Honestly, you're so right.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  I'll set you up. I'll set you up with an eighty five year old.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  But communication is the be all and end all for me. And when I met Justin, who is now my husband, it was a really difficult learning process for me because he had a very different mode of communication. Because he is a founder and a CEO and he didn't have time to text me and I fucking love text. I'm a writer. That's what I don't, I hate a phone call. I've had to get used to it now in the global pandemic. But I hate a phone call. I always think I've done something wrong. Whereas Justin was always like, why would I take time to text you when I can just call you and convey the necessary information?

• 30:57Steven Bartlett?

  Necessary information.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Honestly. And he said this thing and I kept bringing it up and I was like, if you, if I don't hear from you for like three days, that's really upsetting to me and it's not going to work if that continues. He's like, okay, I hear that. He's like, for me, text is a very cheap form of communication and it's something you do when you don't really care. And I do it a lot for work. So for me, it's much more important to spend time together. Anyway, we've sorted it out and I think that's about having different love languages.

• 31:27Steven Bartlett?

  I thought you were gonna say that at some point.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  And I made him take the quiz and it was really helpful. He was acts of service.

• 31:33Steven Bartlett?

  No way.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  But he was also.

• 31:35Steven Bartlett?

  So am I.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go. It's what you do.

• 31:39Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, that's so.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  But he was also, he wasn't interested in words of affirmation at all, which is mine. Just compliment me all the time.

• 31:46Steven Bartlett?

  Was he touch?

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:48Steven Bartlett?

  I thought so. So am I.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Oh my God, you're literally like the same person.

• 31:52Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  That's, yeah. And I was, when he took that, I was really surprised. It was early days of our relationship and he hadn't given me the impression of needing touch. And then once I, once I knew that, I was like, oh, that's lovely. Cause I like that too.

• 32:05Steven Bartlett?

  Are you quality time and there's quality times, one of them?

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:09Steven Bartlett?

  And words of affirmation, maybe?

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm totally, so I was totally words of affirmation when we took the test. But I think that's because I'd come off a. A really bad patch of relationships where I didn't feel safe in those relationships. So I was constantly looking for something to paper over the cracks. And for me, that papering came in the form of compliments. That was like the easiest thing to ask for. And so that's what I thought I needed, but now actually in my relationship, I feel really safe. So for me, it is quality time. It's still words of affirmation, but quality time is super important. And, and I now realise that Justin is very good at taking feedback. That's because that's the business brain, isn't it?

• 32:52Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  You have, so I don't need to sugarcoat something. I can say, listen, I need this or I feel this. And sometimes he'll need time, I hope he doesn't like me talking about it. He's so private, but sometimes he'll need time to like, uh, think it through and sort of strategize it and like digest it. And I always know, it's never that he's forgotten. He'll come back and he'll be like, right, I agree. And this is the action that we're going to take.

• 33:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  And it's amazing and I love that. I really love that. I used to think it was unromantic. It's not at all. It's the most romantic thing because I'm being taken really seriously.

• 33:28Steven Bartlett?

  And I'm guessing, and this is a guess, but I do say it to him without too much like

• 33:35Steven Bartlett?

  uh, emotion, because he sounds like a very pragmatic guy. So the way that I like to receive feedback like that from my ex was just very like without blame or like too much emotion and just like, here are the facts.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:47Steven Bartlett?

  That's the best way I like to receive feedback, you know?

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Yes, completely. But do, separate to you getting feedback, if your partner is emotional and is crying at a film or is sad about something, so moved to tears or feeling anxious, so they're like,

• 34:03Steven Bartlett?

  Fine.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:04Steven Bartlett?

  That's fine.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Exactly the same.

• 34:06Steven Bartlett?

  It's just the feed, you know, because you know what I mean? You deal with people.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  You don't want it with judgment.

• 34:10Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And you, in his business, I'm sure he'll deal with people all day who give him feedback in a very practical, pragmatic way. And that's the way you could come used to it. And, and he'll have the same problems as me, whereas sometimes in business, you'll get feedback in a very. Quite in a helpfully emotional way.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:26Steven Bartlett?

  And now you're trying to deal with this, you're not sure which issue you're actually dealing with.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:30Steven Bartlett?

  Right?

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:31Steven Bartlett?

  When you present it without the emotion, I understand what I'm aiming at here. It's the same as me, you know. I feel like a bit of a scumbag for having acts of service as my.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  No, that's a really lovely thing.

• 34:40Steven Bartlett?

  But doesn't it sound shitty? It's like, I would like you to serve me with, you know what I mean?

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:45Steven Bartlett?

  I was going through that love language thing and I was thinking, why is it that someone getting me something that they knew would help me, doing something that they knew would help me, means so much to me. Cause for me, that, cause, cause my life is tough and challenging. I see it as them showing an action, which is actions speak louder than words. How much they cared about helping me.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:07Steven Bartlett?

  And for me, that's like, I'm like, oh God, you know.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  And also probably because you've had to be incredibly self-sufficient.

• 35:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  You're like the definition of a self-starter. You've had to rely on yourself so much that for someone else to step in and be like, I've got this for you.

• 35:23Steven Bartlett?

  It means a lot.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  It's so meaningful.

• 35:24Steven Bartlett?

  And you're carrying so much. So if someone comes in and says, oh yeah, I'll carry one of these bags for you. It's like, oh, thank you.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:29Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean?

• 35:30Speaker 01

  I totally get it.

• 35:31Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting. One of the things you said was that you're, you were, I guess, scared of being lonely at the end of your life.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, yes. That's my existential fear, that and pigeons.

• 35:41Steven Bartlett?

  Still.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Do you know what?

• 35:44Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe after this.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Interestingly, the global pandemic has been so tough and so much tougher for so many people than it has been for me in myriad ways. One of the unexpected side benefits is that I've really got comfortable with my fear of loneliness. Because overnight, my diary was totally empty. So I had no social engagements. I couldn't see friends. And it made me realise that I didn't really want to see the majority of people that I was going to see. Like I'd said yes to social situations that I didn't really want to go to, but I felt like I should. And I didn't want to offend someone by not letting them down. That's still the people pleaser in me.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  And having the freedom to choose who I wanted to invest time in was hugely beneficial for me. Because I realised actually that. My core, my nucleus of people is very, very small. And, and actually, if I've got Justin and my best friend, I'm good, I'm good. And beyond that, you know, my closest friends, like I actively want to see them and, but I realised that I was just spending a lot of time not nurturing those friendships because I knew that I would be able to step back into them and I knew that I'd be accepted because that's the level of great friendship, isn't it?

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Like, you're just always welcome back. And I was spending a lot of time trying to nurture these other ones that were less meaningful to me, that required more of it because they weren't as generous in their acceptance of me. So actually, my fear of loneliness has slightly lessened now.

• 37:26Steven Bartlett?

  It's good news.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  Yes, isn't it? And although you probably can't tell, I am actually an introvert, but I've successfully learnt how to be extrovert and how to pretend I'm confident when I don't feel it and all of that sort of stuff. And I've realised that I'm also pretty resilient when my world shrinks. So I think I'm going to be okay.

• 37:52Steven Bartlett?

  Silver lining.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:54Steven Bartlett?

  On that point of confidence, it's something that people ask me about all the time is

• 37:59Steven Bartlett?

  confidence seems to be one of the great barriers of people pursuing themselves, as you've described, pursuing their dreams, pursuing who they are. Some people will know who they think they are, but they don't have the confidence to take the leap per se. Are you confident?

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Yes, in certain things. So I'm confident that I can write. I'm now confident that I can podcast, that I can do a good podcast.

• 38:27Steven Bartlett?

  You're a great talker. I was thinking this as you were speaking, I was thinking, I was thinking, I understand why she has a really good podcast.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 38:33Steven Bartlett?

  You know, you're very articulate, self-aware, but you're really good at, you know, talking.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 38:37Steven Bartlett?

  It's a strange thing to say to someone, but you know, you are.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Well, I think I'm good at connecting with people and that's something that I.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Really cherish because that's where all the good stuff lies for me. Like, I love having a conversation like this on such a real level with someone and connecting. That's heaven to me. Like, this is introversion heaven. It's like, I don't want to be at a big party, like, trying to have this conversation with you. That would be stressful. So I'm confident there and you'll notice that those are all things that I do. I'm not hugely confident about myself in the sense that I still struggle with self-worth.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  And I realise that that probably sounds really nauseating for me to sit here in this lovely place, being interviewed for this fabulous podcast, drinking my cup of middle-class green tea. Like, it sounds absurd for me to say that and also self-indulgent. But that's me being really honest. Like, I've just got that, that's something that

• 39:47Speaker 01

  I really struggle with, like, just feeling that I'm enough.

• 39:53Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting. So the conclusive chapter in my book, chapter 20, is all about this topic.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 39:59Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, and I, because I think, and I spoke to some psychologists and stuff, and I battered around with this idea of, um, this contradiction of how I could possibly be enough but ambitious.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes.

• 40:13Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Like, it's, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, and that's that thing that I always fear. If I, if I tackle my self-worth and I cure myself, will I just have no drive?

• 40:24Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so this is chapter 20.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 40:26Steven Bartlett?

  And it's crazy because you would have, you'll resonate with this.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:28Steven Bartlett?

  I actually started the chapter, set out to answer the question, and I answered as I was typing. And, and so usually, as you'll discover, like, in the book is, um, a lot of the time, it's just a shitty use of words that are holding us back. So one of the things like, is, you know, is he your soulmate? That, there's so many presumptions within that, like, that you, that a soulmate exists. You have one of them, you'll be able to find them. And in fact, if you ask yourself, maybe the, the concept of a soulmate doesn't actually exist. Same thing with, are you enough, right? So the, the term enough, this is what was my conclusion. First assumes that we can become less and more.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:06Steven Bartlett?

  How can we become less and more?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  That's a good point.

• 41:08Steven Bartlett?

  In, in, in, innately and intrinsically, how can we ever, how can Elizabeth ever be intrinsically innate, like inside, less or more? You're always going to be you. Same hair, same arms, same legs, same talent, same skills. You inherently, like in, in, intrinsically, never change.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:26Steven Bartlett?

  You never become less, more, enough. You just are. The, the reason why we have these metrics, again, is because it's an external, extrinsic comparison. So I am not enough. In my Nokia is not enough alongside an iPhone.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:39Steven Bartlett?

  So I thought, in fact, and then when you have that feeling of like being less or more of enough, what you then pursue is the pursuit of becoming more. But because it was driven by external factors, your ambition becomes externally driven. So for me, I didn't think I was enough, so I was trying to get a Lamborghini. And in fact, it's the belief, it's the knowing that you never become less, more or enough. That intrinsic feeling that makes you pursue ambition, the right things for the right reasons. So once I knew I was enough, I then went after things I actually gave a shit about intrinsically. I stopped going after Lamborghinis and I started going after like, I would love to do a book. I would love to learn piano. And so my conclusive point is that in fact, it's the, it's the knowing that you're enough and that in fact, you never become less or more regardless of what you achieve

• 42:24Steven Bartlett?

  or accomplish. That is the foundation of real ambition.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:28Steven Bartlett?

  Real ambition is for you. It's chasing what you want for your reasons. That was my conclusion. So the enough thing is actually bullshit, which is just social, which then causes bullshit ambitions, like Lamborghinis.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:39Steven Bartlett?

  And realizing that you never, you know, you never become less, more or enough. Intrinsicly allows you to have intrinsic ambitions and that is real ambition. That's, that's my conclusive point.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Which is so, so mind-blowingly good and also connects to that whole thing, that bullshit about soulmates.

• 42:56Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Because there's that belief that a soulmate will complete you. Now, what you're saying there, you're saying that you're incomplete in and of yourself.

• 43:02Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  And that there's only one true way to fall in line. All of that, I hate that. Yeah.

• 43:06Steven Bartlett?

  The question comes in a very innocent way. It's like, is he your soulmate? And it's the moment you accept it, but you also. Accept seven other pieces of unintended bullshit. Which is like that you're incomplete now, that you you've done, you have a failure at not finding this person. And all of these other pieces of bullshit, it's the same with like, for me, it's the same as like, are you in love? Or have you found your passion? Have you found your passion is like a, I posted about this the other day, it's like another just really difficult piece of bullshit. To to comprehend because found, I've got to search for it. My passion, there's one of them and it's out there somewhere and once I find it, it's going to feel great. Passion, what's that? How does that feel? You've said the word, are we thinking of the same thing, the same? So many pieces of bullshit, which I now have to accept.

• 43:50Steven Bartlett?

  So if there was one thing that I've learned in the last couple of years, it's just like, question the question.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:56Steven Bartlett?

  As much as you possibly can, because the question will fuck you when you accept it.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, I could not agree more. Like also, passion is such an unhelpful word. It's that thing of like, oh, did you feel, did you feel passion? Did you feel this sexual insane sexual chemistry? Did you fall in love at first sight? And I'm like, hang on a second, what you're saying there is, did you feel deeply unsettled and chaotic? Because that's what passion, it's like a disruptive force. I'm like, I don't want to feel, I don't want to feel unstable and chaotic. I want to feel safe and known. That for me is like true romance. And a relationship or a business is not a failure because it ends again. Like you could have learnt so much, you could have learnt what you needed to know and therefore you can evolve and grow.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  And as you say, the act of finding something, what if it's like inside you, you don't need to.

• 44:46Steven Bartlett?

  Should be, shouldn't it?

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Yes, something you love to do should be something you love to do without having to like go on this quest.

• 44:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  But that's what you were saying earlier about ambition being an external driver really feeds into one of the most profound things I've ever learnt from doing all this stuff about failure. I met this man called Mo Goudat, he used to be the chief business officer of Google X, but he wasn't happy. And he has a lot to say about expectation versus reality. So if we can manage our expectations of life, so if they're equal to or less than our perception of events and how they turn out, then we can be happy or contented. And he was the one who really brought it home to me that we are not our worst thoughts, that our thoughts are produced by our brain as organic matter. In the same way that blood is pumped around our body by our heart, like.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  We wouldn't think we were defined by our blood. So why would we think that we are our thoughts? But actually, as you know, the premise of all meditation is that you can observe your thoughts. Who's doing the observing? That's you. That's you. Why would you need thoughts? Like, you don't need to communicate to yourself. So your thoughts are just being produced by your brain constantly. And I found that really helpful, the idea that once you realise that, you can train your brain to think differently and to replace negative thoughts with positive ones as much as you're able. So he gave this incredibly moving example. His son, Ali, died at the age of 21 during a routine operation. And in the aftermath of Ali's death, Mo would wake up every morning

• 46:19Speaker 01

  with tears streaming down his cheeks and his first thought would be, Ali died. And it was an unbelievably oppressive, grief-stricken thought. And after a few more weeks of it, he was like, I just can't live like this. I can't live like this. And so he challenged his brain to come up with a different thought. And each morning he would wake up and he would still think, Ali died, Ali died. He'd still be crying. But he added something to that sentence and he added, yes, but he also lived. And in that differently expressed sentiment was 21 years of memories of a father and son who were best friends. And that was what enabled him to carry on living. And if he can do that in that situation, I sure as hell can do it when someone criticises me on Instagram.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  It was a really helpful lesson.

• 47:07Steven Bartlett?

  We're never really taught to challenge our thinking, right? As you say, because we think it's just, we think it's reality. We think it's true.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  And we're taught to think we need to use it to be good at exams, to get ahead, to get a good job. Like, that's all thought, isn't it? That's like the exercise for your brain. And don't get me wrong, I like love my brain and I'm happy that I have thoughts, but it's that thing of understanding when they're running away with themselves, when they're in control of you.

• 47:38Steven Bartlett?

  Hard.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  It is the exercise of a life term. It like, it really is.

• 47:43Steven Bartlett?

  Trying to rise above your own thoughts is like.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:46Steven Bartlett?

  Or at least analyse them, hold them out in front of you and examine them for validity.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  I mean, you mentioned working out earlier. I definitely find exercise as a helpful way of doing that.

• 47:54Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Like, and that's something, again, I never, I never thought I was good at sport and I translated that wrongly as being like, somebody who doesn't like exercise. Until my thirties really, until I went through all this stuff, divorce, all that sort of stuff. And I needed to feel strong in myself. And that started with feeling strong in my body. And I realised that it was just an incredibly helpful way of being in my body and being out of my head. And it was just such a relief to find that.

• 48:21Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't it nuts, the, the way that your brain thinks while you're exercising versus when you're just.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:26Steven Bartlett?

  In, in, you know, in your normal life, it's just, it's bizarre. It's like a different, different person shows up and can suddenly see clearly.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Totally. And also for me, it feels like I'm not really thinking when I'm outside, but I am. I will have like processed something that has been bothering me for days.

• 48:42Steven Bartlett?

  So fascinating. I wonder why that is. I bet somebody knows. Just the like monotony of doing a task or the, you know, whether it's a running machine or just lifting weights. For some reason, I don't know, the brain just seems to go to a different place. Most of my good ideas, if I have any, come from, uh, come from the gym or the, or walking or the shower sometimes.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's why people sometimes are kind enough to ask me for writing tips, like how to write. And one of the things that I say is like, don't feel guilty for not actually doing the writing sometimes. Like sometimes you literally need to take a walk and be around people or be on the top deck of a top, double decker bus and look out the window. Because your brain needs rest, but it also needs like a creative fallow period where the field is left fallow. And then it becomes more fertile in the future. And all of that feeds into your inspiration.

• 49:34Steven Bartlett?

  It's so true. I, you know, people don't appreciate that. It's one of the real upsides of, of exercise. They think it's to make themselves look pretty, but I think the benefit I've had to my mind through exercise is hard to put into words. I want to talk about failure.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:48Steven Bartlett?

  Now, which seems like a good thing to talk about. And in your book, Philosophy, you, you list, uh, seven failure principles. So I'm sure you've done this a million times, but I think it's a good, good place to start. So the seven failure principles.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:04Steven Bartlett?

  Number one. Failure just is.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Yes, so that actually just feeds in with what we were talking about, which is the idea that failure is a fact, it's inevitable, it's going to happen to all of us, no matter how much we try to avoid it, I guarantee that it will happen. And that can feel scary, but it can also feel liberating because once you've accepted it as a fact, there's no point in trying to avoid it. So you might as well take the risk. So acceptance of failure starts with the observation of it. Failure is a fact, but how you respond to it is within your control. Whether you decide to feel like a failure for many years after the thing that's happened, or whether you think to yourself, okay, well, that's taught me something and I'll do it differently next time.

• 50:47Steven Bartlett?

  I guess the risk there is one bad failure and people stop trying.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 50:52Steven Bartlett?

  And then I was thinking, this is very similar to confidence in the way that like, if you have one bad failure, your performance, next time you get an opportunity, if you actually don't manage to just avoid it completely, will probably be worse because of nerves and that, you know, the memory of I'm terrible. And then that's going to increase your chances of failing again. And then the kind of like self negative reinforcing cycle kind of continues and your confidence and your sort of, yeah, your guts kind of cascade downwards. And can, for some people, work in the other direction where you have a success, your confidence builds, you walk on stage to do that, you know, public speech next time around with a bit more confidence, you do a better job, which increases your chance of success and it cascades upwards. Is that how failure works from your experience?

• 51:33Speaker 01

  It can work like that. I mean, to take the example you've just given, one of the ways of looking at that, if you're then stuck in a downward cycle and you're failing and you're trying at the thing, is that you're therefore in the wrong situation. So you're in the wrong workplace, for instance, that, that isn't generous enough to like, make you feel okay after your failures, or doesn't make you feel like you can be your true self. In which case, I would argue, you need to remove yourself from that situation and find the place that does suit you. Or it can be a question of mindset and a question of applying that mindset that we've just talked about, which is, okay, I failed, I'm feeling in a downward spiral. How much of that is fact? That's a very difficult thing to do on your own when you're

• 52:14Speaker 01

  a very low Ebb, and that's why I'm a huge advocate of therapy. And again, I know that I come from a privileged place where I can afford therapy. But even if it starts with reaching out to your friend and talking about it, or reaching out to your work helpline and talking about it, or texting, shout the mental health charity, or calling the Samaritans, that's a really valuable step. And the other thing that I would say there is that I'm very aware that my definition of failure, which is what happens when life doesn't go according to plan, has a fatal flaw, which is that sometimes there are failures that are totally cataclysmic, that we couldn't possibly have predicted, that go against

• 52:57Speaker 01

  any plan whatsoever, like a global pandemic, like a terrible illness that you contract, like the death of a loved one. It would be monstrous for me to sit here and say, those failures are as easily assimilated, or learnt from, or dealt with, as fading your driving test. And so I'm not saying that at all. Those kind of failures will require a process of mourning and coming to terms with the thing that you've lost. And that's absolutely right and as it should be. My only thing is, the way that I choose to live my life is, I mourn, but I don't have to constantly relive the pain. I can still feel sadness

• 53:41Speaker 01

  about something, but I don't need to live in that place of reliving it constantly.

• 53:46Steven Bartlett?

  Becoming a victim?

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and becoming defined by that. I can choose to be defined by something else. I can choose to be defined by my response to it. I can choose to find some kind of meaning in something that was meaningless at the time. And that's how I choose to live my life, because that makes it less sad. And I, and I think that that choice is available for most of us.

• 54:13Steven Bartlett?

  Topic of conversation that I liked having on this podcast, whereas you're alluding to there is about like personal responsibility. And, you know, we all have different starts in life and different, you know, quote unquote advantages and disadvantages. But how important do you think personal responsibility is even in times where something happened and it's really not your quote unquote fault?

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's tremendously important. I want to caveat what I'm about to say by saying, I'm very aware that certain people are given more opportunities to fail because of the elitist society in which we live, because of the racist society in which we live, because of a society which marginalizes entire groups of people through no fault of their own. I'm aware that I, as a white, middle-class woman, have been given shitloads of opportunities to fail. So, so I'm totally aware of that, that there's a sliding scale.

• 55:02Steven Bartlett?

  You have to say that, right?

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course I have to say that.

• 55:05Steven Bartlett?

  Because?

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Because I don't want people to think that I haven't thought about it. And I also think that it's important to have the discussion.

• 55:13Steven Bartlett?

  It's crazy how many caveats we've got to do before we say anything these days. Like, I don't care that much.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  You're gonna get me into trouble.

• 55:21Steven Bartlett?

  I find it, when I, when I sit here and I, I speak to guests and I watch them have to caveat something they're gonna say, I just find it so funny because I'm like, I personally do that to some degree, but I also, I'm like, oh, what are you gonna, I don't know, it's interesting. It's interesting because this is a growing thing because you're right, if you hadn't have done that, someone would have.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and someone would think, oh, well, it's all very well for her to say that. And like, it's just, it's just a kind of acknowledgement that it's been easier for me in certain respects.

• 55:51Steven Bartlett?

  Which is fair.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  And it's been hard in other ways. Like, everyone has their own lived experience, you know, like, I'm talking from a place of, you know, I wrote a book called How to Fail, which was part memoir, part manifesto. Like, a memoir by its nature cannot be intersectional. Like, I'm speaking from my own life and I'm bringing in voices of other people who can speak to those experiences because it would be delusional and offensive for me to try.

• 56:14Steven Bartlett?

  Has anyone ever taken that shot at you, been like, well, it's easy for you to say?

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:18Steven Bartlett?

  How does it feel? Be honest. How does it feel?

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Well, no, okay. It did feel, before I'd done the thinking, like an attack.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  It did feel like, well, hang on a second. I have worked hard to be where I am. And actually, if you only knew, like, there are things that I never talk about or write about that will never be in the public domain because they involve other people. Okay, so I just can't, I choose not to go there. And then, and then I read more about it and talked more about it. And it's absolutely true that I have had massive advantages in my life. And that's a fact, as is the fact that I've worked hard as well. But I did have those advantages. So for me to deny that feels really wrong and actually irresponsible.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  And now I feel like there's a certain dialogue that is had around women, where I feel women are more often challenged for talking about their personal experiences than men are. And maybe you can tell me that.

• 57:30Steven Bartlett?

  No, I think you're telling the truth. I think I would agree.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Okay. And I don't like that.

• 57:35Steven Bartlett?

  That's crazy. That's so true.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:37Steven Bartlett?

  It's so true.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Like, I don't like the fact that I feel as though I constantly have to say, I constantly have to show my battle scars and my wounds and my sadness in order to earn the right to a platform from which I can speak and write as a woman. Now, there are certain white, middle-class, privately educated men out there who never have to do that apologising. They never have to do that caveating. People are just like, oh, they're quirky.

• 58:08Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm, but they will say it with their, they will like, the quote is like, say it with your chest. They will say it with their chest. They'll talk about their success. They'll give advice. They don't caveat anything. It's like, this is how you do it. And it's funny because I sat here with.

• 58:22Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe shouldn't say their name, but I sat here with a young lady who's very successful and she was educated at maybe the best university in the land.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Grace Savile.

• 58:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  I heard it. I listened to it. Yeah. And I thought she dealt with it very elegantly.

• 58:33Steven Bartlett?

  And why she got to deal with it elegantly?

• 58:36Speaker 01

  And I.

• 58:36Steven Bartlett?

  I sit here, I think like the point I was trying to make to her is like, why is it that you and Grace have to have to like, do this like a salt course of words and caveats? Because you will, someone will say in the comments section, oh, it's very easy for, but with my male guests, no, they don't do that and they don't have to, and they don't get attacked.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Can I ask you an off topic, personal question? About race.

• 59:00Steven Bartlett?

  On the record.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  On the record, totally on the record. So I felt really conflicted on social media around Black Lives Matter and the horrendous, tragic, to my mind, illegal death of George Floyd. And I was like, but I don't, I felt like I don't need to post on Instagram that I think killing black people is bad. Like surely that's a given.

• 59:28Steven Bartlett?

  No, no, Elizabeth, silence is violence. I'm taking the first one.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  I know, but I do. So I would love to hear from you, like, what's my responsibility? Cause I did post a black square. Cause I was like, if I don't post a black square, then that I don't, that feels wrong to me as well.

• 59:45Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, but this is just like, this is a huge issue with society because

• 59:51Steven Bartlett?

  we're thinking in such binary bullshit ways about these really complex, sensitive systemic issues. It's in that moment, and the reason I did this post on Instagram, it went viral and like, everyone's seen it and I've talked about this podcast multiple times, mainly because I just had Ant and Lil on, so I've talked about it there. But obviously when we watch a, a, a, a black man get killed for nine minutes, asking for his mum, any sound, sort of morally sound human being on planet earth. Will feel a bunch of emotions. I watched it and I didn't say anything for three days because I just, I just didn't want to see that fucking clip again. No. I didn't want to talk about it. I watched that clip and just thought, oh, I felt sick to my stomach and I was angry and I was sad and I just didn't want to.

• 1:00:32Steven Bartlett?

  And then my DMs, in my DMs, I've got all these DMs from people, black people going, you've not stood with us, you fucking butt. And I'm just thinking, oh, fuck off. Like. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? This isn't, and in those moments, what social media and the world will try and do is it will try and make you um, fit exactly into a, a camp that, that think in one way, that act in one way, that use one hashtag, that post one thing. And I will not, I know will not. And so in that moment, what I posted was defending white people, I guess, or everyone and said, listen, people process things in their own ways and that's normal, obviously. Do you agree with that statement? People process especially traumatic things in their own, everyone agrees with that sentence.

• 1:01:14Steven Bartlett?

  And some people might be thinking, they might be reading, they might just be listening and that's okay. And also my last point here is I'm going to be black forever, for my entire life. My kids will also be, have a little bit of black in them too. Maybe a quarter black, depending on who I marry. And so if you actually give a shit about changing things, your response isn't a black tile. Your response would be something much more systemic. Your response might be educating yourself and your friends. Virtue signaling on social media, that, for me, that's a sign that you probably don't really care. Yeah. If anything, and like, you can't say that unless you're black. I'm the only person that can say that. Like, not, not the only one, I mean, there's more of us. But I mean, like, I'm in my friendship group, I'm the only one that can say that.

• 1:01:57Steven Bartlett?

  Because you'd be, all of you'd be finished off. Every single one of you would get finished if you said anything like that. So, and, and that, it's a sad world we live in because I know everyone in this room agrees, not one of you can say it. And that's a sad place to be where this isn't a war of ideas. This is a war of like virtue signaling. Like, we're not, it's not competition of the best ideas. It's a, it's a competition of like, who is correct and who is incorrect. Cancel, accept, cancel, accept. And man, oh, what a sad place. Can't even have a conversation without someone fucking gonna lose your job. I'm fortunately unemployed, so no one can find me.

• 1:02:31Steven Bartlett?

  I don't really need the money either. So like, you know what I mean? Like the podcast sponsors, if they if they thought I was immoral or whatever they could pull out, but.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  No, I think, thank you, because that's, I think you're right. And I think compassion and nuance can't be fitted into the binary world of social media a lot of the time.

• 1:02:50Steven Bartlett?

  Never.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  I'm really sorry because I've completely like.

• 1:02:54Steven Bartlett?

  No, no, it really, it really.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Taken a detour here.

• 1:02:56Steven Bartlett?

  I'm so annoyed at this. And the thing that annoys me more is I don't think it can be fixed. I don't know. I don't know how it can be fixed. I know the way that algorithms work. And I know that they create echo chambers where everyone thinks like you. So the minute anyone in your echo chamber is not thinking like you, you, the way that they reinforce and reward your thought using these algorithms, you're not going to get rewarded, you're going to get attacked. And so it's, it's fighting against, it's fighting a losing battle. At some point, I'll probably be cancelled or something. I'm like pretty aware of this because I refuse to, I like to think in nuance. I like to think, I don't think left or right. I think usually the truth is somewhere in the middle often.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:35Steven Bartlett?

  More so than it is on the far left or the far right. And that is a dangerous way to think. It's a crime. And for me, that's a form of imprisonment, which is the inability to think and speak for yourself. That's a form of imprisonment in the same way, putting someone in a cage. It's, and for me also, not allowing people to express themselves. We've seen the harm that does. We've seen when people can't express their sexuality, they kill themselves more. So I will, I sort of was thinking, I was like, I will not allow myself to be imprisoned, my thought to be imprisoned and my expression to be put in prison. Because I actually think the net impact of that is much worse than just someone, some writing some shit in the comment section about me. I'd like to be a free thinker.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  What do you think of Piers Morgan?

• 1:04:15Steven Bartlett?

  Sometimes he hits, sometimes he misses. He's a bit of a narcissist in some ways. Sometimes he's like right, sometimes he's wrong. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't. Shouldn't be deplatformed. We can all scream at him, but he's not, he's not like.

• 1:04:29Steven Bartlett?

  He's not a racist. He's not doing it. He's not like encouraging people to like hurt each other. He's not encouraging harm or violence. He has an opinion which some people disagree with sometimes. Talking about Sharon Osborne, she's been chucked off her show for defending Piers Morgan. And I watched the clip last night of what she said, and all she goes is, you know, what has he said that's racist? And the host responds to him, it's not what he said. He hasn't said anything racist. It's just his, you know, basically his attitude towards the situation. Oh, come on, fucking hell.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  But do you think, so, but do you think that because we've had millennia of things one way, the transitional phase is always going to have to be extreme as the pendulum swings to one, to one end, and so that it can then stabilize in the center? And we're just living through an age of transition?

• 1:05:21Steven Bartlett?

  I like to think that sometimes, but then I know how algorithms work. And I think that the algorithms are reinforcing our echo chambers. Every single day, my algorithm is telling me if I'm right, or if I'm wrong. And it's based on group think. It's like these pockets of group think. And the other thing is like, just while I think about it logically, I think, you know, I read this quote one day, and it was like, if your opinions and beliefs almost identically resemble the people around you, then they're not your opinions and beliefs. I thought about that a lot. And I was like, no, this is true.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:51Steven Bartlett?

  If we want to get like, really deep about this.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:56Steven Bartlett?

  Most of our beliefs and opinions come from the society we live in. And you've only got to go back 5,000, 10,000 years and see the barbaric things we did, that we thought were morally sound and okay. To realize that in fact, our opinions and beliefs are mainly given to us by society. In fact, good and bad, if you look at what we did 100 years ago, if you look at what happened in certain parts of the world in, you know, history, those people thought they were good. And that was the right thing to do. And so what are my opinions today? The majority, what social media and the world has told me is the correct thing to do. How moral are we? If we felt completely moral when we used to like behead people and kill black people and chase, we thought that was good.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Go on crusade.

• 1:06:38Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it's a lot. Maybe a topic. Anyway, what was I in this book?

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  So sorry.

• 1:06:43Steven Bartlett?

  Point number two of fail philosophy. I like lost my way in this quickly. Got the list here as well. So point number two in your book is you are not your anxious brain. I think you've talked about that.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yes, that's the Mo Gaia.

• 1:06:58Steven Bartlett?

  Almost everything feels feels they almost everyone feels they have failed in their twenties.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  I mean, not you. Okay. So Stephen Vardla, I'm pretty sure. Do you think you failed in your twenties? Probably personally. Sorry.

• 1:07:11Steven Bartlett?

  No, no, it's a good question, actually. Multiple times. Yeah. Started my first business at 18. It was clearly a failure. Left that when I was 20 years old. Failed in those relationships, failed every day in business. Not the big, like, momentous failures other than my business that one would assert. But no, I felt probably more than anybody, to be fair.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  I think that's so great to hear. And also, I think that a lot of people struggle in their twenties, particularly in this day and age, because of the curse of comparison and because we live in a culture of curated perfection, where you're constantly comparing yourself to your peers' filtered appearance on Instagram and the life that they seem to be living. So we're comparing our insides with everyone else's projection of their outsides.

• 1:07:53Steven Bartlett?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  And for many people, although I know not you, but for many people, it's the first time that they've come out of full-time education and come out of a system of exam and reward, exam and reward. And there is no exam that you can sit to show that you're being a good grown up. So you feel quite lost. Plus, piling on top of that, the pressure to find your passion, to like make a career for yourself, but also to earn enough to pay your rent, living in house shares, like just trying to make your way and trying to forge your identity in this day and age. It's just so hard to do all that at once. And then you're like, oh, and I should be having like a thriving personal life and I should either

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  be in a long-term relationship or having wine night sounds and making footloose and fancy free and drinking loads. And then at the weekend, making vegan brownies because I got to watch what I eat and all of that sort of stuff. And it's. Exhausting. And so really, what I wanted to say in that failure principle was that so many people come on in podcasts and say that they feel they failed at their twenties. And I think a lot of us fall into the trap, and I did too, of believing that we had to have our life sorted out by then. And actually, your twenties are a decade of transition, of discovering who you are, of grinding up the spices of life in your pestle and mortar. And the older you get, my experience has been, the more you know yourself and the more you know what you want to do. And that's where success lies. I've had so many more

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  opportunities after leaving my twenties behind in the rearview mirror.

• 1:09:24Steven Bartlett?

  Wow. I think I've read you've really thought about that. You've written a book on it. So yeah. Number four, breakups are not a tragedy. Your ex-partner has taught you something.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things you said, which I, which I thought was really, really powerful is that a relationship ending doesn't mean that it failed.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  That's it in a nutshell. I've had countless failed relationships and they, and they, and it sucks. Like heartbreak, there is no pain like heartbreak.

• 1:09:51Steven Bartlett?

  I hate it.

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  It's the worst, isn't it? It's the worst. It really, I, yeah, I totally relate. And I now realise that I learnt something very instructive from each one of those relationships and from the fact that they ended. It taught me something that I needed to know about myself. And I realised that love that was ready for me, I didn't need to fight to convince it. Like, it would meet me where I was. And it might not come in the package that I expected, and it didn't. I, I met Justin on a hinge date that I almost didn't go on. And it doesn't, and it doesn't immediately feel like the thing that you thought you wanted, because actually, that hasn't worked out for you. So it's always better to make a different

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  choice, I think. So yeah, it's just about how, although relationships feel that they might be life-ending at the time, they never, never, when they end, they never, never are. And often, someone has been sent to you, whether it be a friendship, a work colleague, or a lover, to teach you a lesson that you needed to know. And when a relationship ends, it's because you've been taught that lesson.

• 1:10:54Steven Bartlett?

  God, it's a shitty lesson to learn. And also, like,

• 1:10:58Steven Bartlett?

  When you go through a breakup, as you've described there, not letting it end is part, in my experience, of the reason why something new doesn't start.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, that's so, yes. That's what Oprah would call a teachable moment.

• 1:11:11Steven Bartlett?

  Is it?

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. You need to, you need to create the space for the new thing to come in, which means leaving something behind.

• 1:11:20Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I talk about a little bit before about quitting being just as much of a skill and an art form as starting. We glamorise starting, but there's a real talent, not yet, there's a real skill to knowing how to quit, how to move forward, because starting's great, but the thing you do before you start something is to quit something else. And that is, I mean, just from reading your books and stuff and listening to the interviews you've done, not appreciated enough because it involves uncertainty. You're throwing yourself off a cliff sometimes and building the paraglider as you fly.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Yes. And we're also taught to avoid feelings of sadness, like good vibes only. And you're like, no, actually, sometimes you need to be in that sadness. You need to feel that discomfort to understand what life really is. Life is texture. Life is all sorts of emotions. And when we feel grief because a relationship has ended or because we've lost someone, that, as that famous quote says, is the price you pay for love. And in a way, it's a beautiful thing to feel because it's a signifier of how much you love.

• 1:12:19Steven Bartlett?

  It just sucks, though.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:12:21Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, it just, doesn't it just suck? Like, I just, giving people advice and heartbreak, I feel like it's such a, for me, when I'm like in my DMs and someone sent me something about, I've just broken up with this person and whatever.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Steven Bartlett?

  It's such an intoxicating force, like heartbreak.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:35Steven Bartlett?

  That I'm like, my words aren't going to help you. You just basically have to tough it out and to, and to try as much as you can in believing that your future will be better.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:44Steven Bartlett?

  You'll get past this.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  And believing that rejection is protection. If you're rejected, that person is not for you, either because they've been stupid enough to fucking reject you, or because action is character. And if they've dumped you, it's like, well, do you really want to trust that person for the rest of your life? No.

• 1:13:02Steven Bartlett?

  I'm gonna, is, is that, is that true? And I'm playing devil's advocate here intentionally because I actually don't know the answer. If you get rejected, is that person not right for you?

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  It, I mean, yes, I think, but I, I suppose it depends on the nature of the rejection. Like, it has to be a serious one. Um, it, it can't just be an unread WhatsApp message, like that you're interpreting as a rejection.

• 1:13:28Steven Bartlett?

  They like, full on rejected.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's, listen, I don't know if it's true or not, but it's what I choose to believe. Because it makes me feel better about life to believe.

• 1:13:39Steven Bartlett?

  I think by the definition you gave of like, well, they didn't appreciate you.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:45Steven Bartlett?

  What about like, how, if we think about taking responsibility in those situations and we say, okay, my relationship with this guy that I loved ended. Because I have problems, because not, when I say problems, it's like, I have jealousy or I have things that I haven't dealt with.

• 1:14:00Steven Bartlett?

  Is that also, you know, that's, it's hard for people to do that.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:03Steven Bartlett?

  Blame is super easy and heartbreak.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  You're so right. And that's where personal responsibility comes in.

• 1:14:08Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  And so in the immediate aftermath of a breakup, you're going to probably feel heartbroken and really sad. Once you've processed that, then it's, then your responsibility is to understand what part you played in the dynamic. But for those first few weeks, do whatever you need to do to get through. And if you need to blame someone and just keep saying rejection is protection and like, what a loser. Do it because you just need to get through that initial phase of awfulness. I actually, my last serious breakup, I was in such a dark place. I Googled, how long does it take to get over heartbreak?

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  It's like, actually, that was a really good, six weeks I did feel better. It was a good, it was like a manageable length of time. And I was like, okay, I'm going to feel miserable for six weeks. And once you commit to the acceptance of that, it becomes a lot easier to deal with because you're not struggling against feeling it. You're like, well, I'm on track because I'm now week four. So yeah, I'm still feeling miserable. That's okay. And it somehow makes you feel better.

• 1:15:15Steven Bartlett?

  Uh, no, I get that. Yeah.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  Are you post breakup right now?

• 1:15:19Steven Bartlett?

  Um, not post breakup, no. Uh, I'm, I'm post, um, something ending.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:15:26Steven Bartlett?

  Um.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 1:15:28Steven Bartlett?

  No, no, it wasn't. It was, it was, um, I consider it to be a choice that I made.

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:15:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. So that's not necessarily the best example. For me, the, the real significant heartbreak moments I had were all when I was, when I was younger, really. And, uh, yeah, and it just always sucked. Um, but obviously I've got a lot of friends that are going through breakups and stuff, and it's always difficult to give them advice because you're, they're so, their head is gone. Like, there's nowhere I can describe it. There, there's no sense there when it matters of love. It's just all, so yeah, just asking them to tough it out, I think is, is all I've ever got in terms of advice.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Well, now you can give them a copy of philosophy.

• 1:16:03Steven Bartlett?

  Point number seven. When we choose to share our vulnerabilities is when we feel most satisfaction.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Most connection, I think, is what I said. Well, I don't.

• 1:16:14Steven Bartlett?

  Why does it say satisfaction on my list?

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. I like that too, because you probably do feel personal satisfaction. It's like, but when we choose to be open about our vulnerabilities, that's paradoxically when we find the most strength and the source of the most real connections with other people.

• 1:16:29Steven Bartlett?

  Amen.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's something that I have genuinely learnt through the podcast. The first season of the podcast I did, I was very much, I came from a very traditional newspaper journalist background. So for me, it was like, I'm interviewing my guest. I will ask the questions and I will listen and then I will ask another question. And it was only as time went on that I felt more comfortable sharing my own experiences. And whenever I did that, I had such an incredible, like, feedback loop of like, just amazing people sharing their stories and their vulnerabilities and also saying that they felt less alone because I shared mine. And really, that's what my entire life is about

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  ultimately, is connection. And so I really want to encourage people not to be scared of opening up about the things that they perceive as their weaknesses, because so often what you think of as your most personal shame turns out to have most universal resonance. And that was certainly my experience talking about fertility and miscarriage and divorce. Like, actually, that's where I've had the greatest impact, I think. And I'm so grateful for that.

• 1:17:42Steven Bartlett?

  Why do you think that is? Why do you think vulnerable in terms of like, why it has such wide resonance? Why do you think that is?

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Because I think that when we're vulnerable, we're being real and we're letting our masks slip. And you'll see a glimpse of who the authentic person is. And there's something

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  just absolutely quintessentially human about that. So it's a human recognizing another human. It's a human recognizing another human beneath the pretense. And I think it also reassures people because as we've been talking about in this culture that we live in, which is so defined by social media and how you appear and the currency of perfection. Again, it's such a relief. It makes you feel like you can breathe as someone's like, oh, God, I'll tell you about today. I sat in bed in my pajamas, eating hummus direct from the tub because I felt really down. That's an act of singular generosity to someone else who can then have the space to talk about how they're feeling.

• 1:18:45Steven Bartlett?

  Is there any such thing as too vulnerable? Or oversharing?

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  There's, yeah, there's, I don't think there's any such thing as too vulnerable. I do think there is such a thing as oversharing. And I only say, I say, I make that distinction because oversharing is about telling your story to others. And obviously, there are right and appropriate times and places to do that. I'm not advocating that someone goes into work and just starts sobbing at their desk. There's, there's definitely a time and place for that, but I wouldn't suggest doing that every single day. Like to protect yourself, you need to find a safe space that you can share those vulnerabilities with, and then build up your strength and your confidence and realize what it is that you do want to speak more publicly about. Because I

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  don't think that you can share with everyone immediately after you've experienced pain. Like, that's too soon. And also, you can't trust everyone to honor what you're sharing. So I don't think you can be too vulnerable, but it's a question of choosing the things that you then take your vulnerability and share from and who you share them with. That was such an inequivalent way of saying that.

• 1:19:57Steven Bartlett?

  No, it's a really

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  Basically about boundaries.

• 1:19:59Steven Bartlett?

  No, yeah, no, I completely, I completely, I was thinking when you were saying it because I remember having a conversation with one of my team members in New York one day where I was trying to You know, the, the issue you have when you're a CEO is someone might have some struggles, some mental health issues, or they might have some problems going on at home. How do you tell them without being a dick to, to not broadcast that every day to their team?

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:26Steven Bartlett?

  Below them, but also knowing the importance of speaking and expression is part of the cure. So I remember having a conversation with one particular person and just saying to them, like, the key thing is like knowing the right outlet for that.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:37Steven Bartlett?

  And you described it as, as like the safe space.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:20:40Steven Bartlett?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  And that can be a different safe space for different people. It can be your therapist, it can be your sibling, it can be the in-house therapy that your workplace hopefully provides. But I also think that it goes back to what we were saying earlier. If a team leader is in that position, I think it's about being able to bring your authentic whole self to work, but being able to show that you're not defined by the things that have gone wrong. Or if you are defined by it, you're defined in a good way, in that you're choosing to lean into this particular feeling because it's going to teach you something that you need to know. That's the sort of responsibility of a leader, I think. It's not to pretend that everything's fine and to wear this mask of the perfect boss.

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  It's to be someone who acknowledges that life can be tough and who shares what they're going to do about that. I think we need to have confidence in our leaders that they have an idea about what to do with it when they're sharing it in the workplace.

• 1:21:38Steven Bartlett?

  And this is the problem with Matt Hancock being such a robot, isn't it?

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, don't even get me started on that.

• 1:21:44Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know if he experiences emotion. I should probably shouldn't say that because that's unfair, but I just, I look at this guy and I think, do you understand what people are feeling? I don't think you do.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  It's a problem with so many politicians. I was so inspired by Angela Merkel recently because she apologised for having overturned a lockdown ruling over Easter. She's like, I'm really sorry, I got that wrong. I was like, oh, my gosh, thank you. Thank you. Just quickly to go back to oversharing.

• 1:22:08Steven Bartlett?

  And Jacinda.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, Jacinda is, I mean, we both need to get her on our respective podcasts. We really do. Oversharing, as it pertains to women, just very quickly, I think women are often shamed into silence. And I've definitely experienced that. Someone being like, why do you talk about all this stuff? Why don't you keep it private? And I'm like, precisely so that I attack that kind of narrative, because I feel that so many people feel shame and stigma over things they don't need to feel it for. And it's because people stay silent. So I think it's also a bit of a stick with which to beat women.

• 1:22:47Steven Bartlett?

  I completely agree. Is there anything you wouldn't share that doesn't involve someone else?

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a great question.

• 1:22:58Steven Bartlett?

  Because every time I, every time you hit a wall in terms of what you're willing to share, it's because you say, well, that involves someone else, so I won't share. But is there anything about yourself that you wouldn't share that doesn't involve anybody else?

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  I am still determined to be a mother. When I get pregnant, I will have, I don't think I would share that publicly, because I would feel fearful and anxious, and also because I have such respect for women who are going through fertility issues, that I would just never do that. But that involves another person, the one that I'm carrying. So I'm not sure whether the parameters of your question really fit around. But that is one thing that I've thought about. Yeah. So it's quite a heavy answer.

• 1:23:57Steven Bartlett?

  That's a really interesting point there about the, you wouldn't want to share it because you've probably resonated, well, of course you have, I can probably, you've resonated with a lot of women who are going through that same experience. And you've probably got a lot of those people in your audience. So for some of those people, it might, I mean, you know, humans are humans. The news that, you know, when you have your, your own child might feel like shit to them.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Definitely. And I respect that because I've been there and I felt it and I feel it still. And, and I totally understand that.

• 1:24:27Steven Bartlett?

  Feel it as in it's like a jealousy of, it's like an envy.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:30Steven Bartlett?

  Or like a.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:24:31Steven Bartlett?

  Of women that have a child or that.

• 1:24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's never personally directed. It's just a sort of

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  envy or yearning would be a better word for an experience that thus far has been denied me. And I think lockdown and the pandemic has been so hard for all women and it's been incredibly hard for people homeschooling their children. But for people who don't have children and desperately long for that, for people who are going through fertility treatment that's been delayed by the pandemic, for people who've experienced miscarriages during lockdown, as I have, it's incredibly painful to see parents complaining about homeschooling and how difficult that is to have these children that they have to homeschool. That's a very difficult thing. Now, no one is to blame for that.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  I take personal responsibility for my reaction and that's where I need to curate my social media feed. That is absolutely not the fault of the parent question. They should totally do that and lean into it. And that is completely right and appropriate. That's up to me to take that responsibility on. It's just that I know I wouldn't feel comfortable shouting it from the rooftops because I know how fucking painful and traumatic it is to go through. I really do.

• 1:25:52Steven Bartlett?

  Listen, so your, um, your vulnerability and your honesty is, is really moving and it's very, very rare.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:25:58Steven Bartlett?

  And you know, I can't, I can't even begin to imagine how many, um, people, women you've helped because of your vulnerability. You probably don't even get to see it. So I want to thank you on behalf of all those people. I, as I was reading about your story and your journey, I was like really taken aback by how open and honest you're willing to be because you don't need to be, right? Um, I'm sure that, you know, as you've described in some of the things you've written, you've, you've discovered that it's actually really almost paradoxically quite a selfish thing to be so selfless in that way. But, um, yeah, I think you're just remarkable. And I think, um, what you've written and the work you've produced is phenomenal. And I just wanted to thank you so much for coming here today and being as vulnerable with me as you have been across all of your other work. It's, um, it's truly, uh, you know, we're, we're.

• 1:26:41Steven Bartlett?

  It's a fortunate, we're fortunate as a society to have people like you in it.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Oh, Stephen.

• 1:26:45Steven Bartlett?

  You're willing to help, so thank you.

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  Thank you for giving me a safe space and for making me feel like I can be vulnerable with you. I have loved this conversation so much, I really truly have, and I love that I've been able to swear. But I also love what you do and what you stand for. And honestly, your Instagram page, I don't know how you have so much wisdom at such a young age. But we will find your perfect match.

• 1:27:13Steven Bartlett?

  All right, please, please do. Your book, Philosophy, it's everywhere. I actually went down to St Pancras yesterday just to get it, got it off the shelf, I think.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Excellent.

• 1:27:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. Where else can people find you and what else are you working on that they should check out? The podcast as well, How to Fail.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:27:29Steven Bartlett?

  That's a smash hit book, Sunday Times bestseller.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Yes, I wrote another book before that called How to Fail originally. Everything I've ever learnt from things going wrong, which is my memoir, part memoir, part manifesto. The podcast available on all podcast platforms. I'm on social media at Eliza B Day and I've got a novel out. My new novel is out in September and it's called Magpie. And.

• 1:27:52Steven Bartlett?

  Say about.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  It is, okay, I have to be a bit vague because there's a massive twist in it.

• 1:27:56Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  And it's a sort of psychological twisty novel, but it's about a lot of what we've been talking about today. It's about dysfunctional motherhood and what happens when you think you know what you want and then your dreams come true and then it just turns out to be a total illusion. Have I sold it?

• 1:28:17Steven Bartlett?

  Is it a thriller?

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  It is basically a thriller driven by kind of warped characters.

• 1:28:22Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, interesting.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  And I'm obsessed with magpies, that's why it's called Magpie.

• 1:28:26Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Do you salute magpies?

• 1:28:28Steven Bartlett?

  Sorry?

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Do you salute magpies?

• 1:28:29Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know, I didn't think, no, no one ever told me that tale. But thank you so much again, and it means a lot to me that you can make the time for this today. And I'm sure that you've imparted a ton of important inspiration on our listeners. So thank you.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.