From “The Wood” to “The Mandalorian”: Rick Famuyiwa Proves Good Stories Are Universal

There are SO many different ideas out there about what it takes to make it in Hollywood. But our guest today, Rick Famuyiwa, is living proof that carving out your own lane is the move. You probably know him from his recent work, like the hit show “The Mandalorian,” or his 2015 indie smash “Dope” with Zoë Kravitz and A$AP Rocky. But today, we’re throwin’ it all the way back to where it started. Rick’s breaking down exactly how he paved his own way in the industry, the magic of telling stories that hit close to home, and y’all…he’s spilling some tea on how, at just 24 years old, three guys who would go on to become pretty big stars—Terrence Howard, Jamie Foxx, and Usher (ever heard of them?)—auditioned for his first movie, “The Wood.” See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  This episode is sponsored by the lovely people over at Airbnb. Are you celebrating love this month? Book an Airbnb for you and your boo and watch the sparks fly. Now, let's start the show.

• 0:16Keke Palmer?

  Hey, it's your girl, Keke Palmer here. One thing that I think a lot of creative people struggle with is finding an authentic voice. I'm curious of what makes a creative voice authentic and how we find that sort of voice. So today, we have Rick Famuyiwa here to tell us about his creative journey and how influences like hip-hop music has shaped his work. So let's get into it because, baby, this is Keke Palmer.

• 1:08Keke Palmer?

  I am so hyped to have this one-of-a-kind filmmaker here today. He is a visionary director, writer, and producer known for creating stories that capture culture, identity, and real-life experiences with authenticity. You've seen his work in films like "Dope," "The Wood," and "Brown Sugar." Lately, he's been writing, directing, and producing for the critically acclaimed Star Wars show, "The Mandalorian." Rick Famuyiwa, welcome to the show.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's exciting to be here.

• 1:39Keke Palmer?

  You know, the first time that I met you, all I could talk about was "The Wood." "The Wood, The Wood, The Wood, The Wood." And I'm telling you, man, I saw that movie when I was, I think, probably way too young to see it, like six or seven years old.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're a little too young.

• 1:51Keke Palmer?

  But what I loved, right, way too young, but what I loved about that movie, even at that young age, what I understood was... This reminds me of my family. And my community. I think a lot of times, um, and I didn't, I think maybe I was able to articulate this, obviously as I got older that we didn't always see our stories and our culture with all the difficulties that felt like love in the end. There was no pain, no strife, even if when they had that scene with the cops or whatever like that. Moments after they're laughing there in the school dance, we're moving on.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:20Keke Palmer?

  And I felt like that was the first time and your movies in general. Brown Sugar is a movie that I still go to bed to watching every night. Where they just show our joy, our love, our laughter, our troubles. But in a way that feels so casual, accessible and as close to reality as I feel like you could get in a movie. So I want to start at the beginning of that. When you did The Wood, what was happening in your life at the time? And what was happening in those three lead actors? Because I mean, they're stars that we know today.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:52Keke Palmer?

  But what was, what, what were they then?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Well, um, you know, I'd gone to, to film school, went to USC. And, and I originally went there, you know, I thought I was gonna be a lawyer, you know. I was political science major, I was like doing my pre-law thing. I was actually playing hoops on the team. And then I took a film class as an, an art elective. And just like, you know, I'm thinking, all right, you know, this should be fun, watch some movies. And the concept that you had a class where you could like watch movies was so, uh, funny and intriguing to me that I was like, let me do this. And, and I did it and it was amazing because I was watching all these incredible movies

• 3:36Speaker 01

  and got into so much of the history and, and saw films from the past that I'd heard about, but never really saw. And got to see them on a big screen and I got hooked, you know, um. And then I started taking more electives as, as much as I could. And then ended up actually, you know, transferring into the school. I dropped out of my major and I got off the basketball team and I was like, this is what I was gonna do. I think it's because I always loved storytelling, but I just, you know, the idea that you can make movies for a living, just, I grew up in Inglewood, so it wasn't like you were thinking, I'm gonna do this for a living. So anyway, I did a short film called Black Top Lingo, which was kind

• 4:18Speaker 01

  of about the neighborhood I grew up in, and it was like centered around this basketball court, and it was like a day in the life of this basketball court, and it was all the characters that showed up there. And it was a short film I did like my senior year, and that film got into Sundance Film Festival when I was a senior at USC. And so, you know, after that, I went to the festival with the film. I met like a lot of people there, you know, I got an agent out of it. So I was trying to hustle and do my Hollywood thing, coming out of school, which was kind of crazy for me to think that this was happening. But, you

• 4:56Speaker 01

  know, this was like 1997, 96. And so, you know, I went in with a lot of like the ideas that I wanted to make and was getting a whole lot of resistance to it. There was just a lot of people who did not understand, even though I think, you know, Spike and Robert Townsend were doing a lot of great work. There was still not a lot of film during this period that was really.

• 5:25Keke Palmer?

  And a lot of hyperreality with both of those. I'm not sure what Black Top Lingo was like, but knowing your work, it brought you the fresh grounded perspective that wasn't so, it was just like, this is life. So I imagine they weren't sure.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, because Boys in the Hood and Menace to Society. So there was like a real sort of like, okay, that's black cinema, right? For a lot of people in Hollywood. And so, and I'd grown up watching. You know, Back to the Future and Ghostbusters and different things like that and ET.

• 6:00Keke Palmer?

  Well, I love to hear you say this, because that's what I, you know, it's that wholesomeness.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:05Keke Palmer?

  That's like, black can exist and still be cool.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 6:09Keke Palmer?

  Like macking, hanging, like that is cool, but there's such a wholesomeness that exists. Even when Stacy, like he gonna beat your ass, he a blood, but it's like, yo, I'm looking out for you, youngin'.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 6:19Keke Palmer?

  Like that, when you were mentioning being in school and watching movies and studying and learning the history, I'm curious of what directors or writers, filmmakers that you realize that you shared a liking to.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, George Lucas, he had a film called American Graffiti, which kind of reminded me of me and my friends. I grew up in LA and so it felt like a California story. And I knew him from Star Wars, but I hadn't seen American Graffiti. And so when I saw that, it really moved me. Uh, and then there were filmmakers like Francois Truffaut. And there was a film called Four Hundred Blows that also had these two young characters in it that were, you know, again, kind of, they were rough little characters, but they were sweet, you know? And so as I was sort of struggling to get my foot in the door and, you know, and I started like pitching crazy ideas because I felt like that's what the business wanted.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  So I'm trying to like figure out, you know, what, what story I can tell where someone wears a dress, but then pulls out a gun, you know?

• 7:25Keke Palmer?

  Come on, just think of it.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  So I'm like, yeah, so I'm pitching all this stuff and I'm like,

• 7:29Keke Palmer?

  Yo.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  And I came out of it just feeling like, what the hell am I doing? And so finally I just, I was like, okay, if someone said, write a story, don't worry about whether you could sell it, anyone could buy it, what would be the story you would write? And so I thought about like me and my boys and I was like, this is the story I would tell. I'd want to tell a story like, you know, American Graffiti or Diner or these coming of age films that I really loved. When I was watching them in film school, I said, I would want to do my version of that. But they, but with my friends, because I grew up in the same communities that a lot of these films were set, like Boys and Menace, but my experience was different, right?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  I wasn't, I wasn't banging.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  I wasn't selling dope. I wasn't doing any. I was trying to like, just, you know, me and my friends would try to just hang out and, you know, get girls or go to dances or play sports. And yeah, we had our friends. Yeah, exactly. And so we all kind of came up together. So I just started writing and it really came because one of my, one of my best friends was getting married at the time. And so, you know, you're a kid in your twenties and, you know, we were in our like mid twenties at this point. And, and he was like, yeah, I'm getting married and he was gonna get married and move up to Northern California. And it was like, what, what are you doing? And, you know, you're messing up, you're messing, yeah, you're breaking up the group and.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Thinking like kids, right? Thinking like twenty year olds. But that was the thing that really kind of got me thinking about our friendship and what it meant to me. And so I just started writing about it with no idea that anyone would ever really do it. It was more like, I just want to get this out just because it's.

• 9:20Keke Palmer?

  On my mind.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  It's in me and I just have to get it out. So I, I wrote the script. And as I was writing the script, one of the people that admitted Sundance was a person named Lynn Arbuthnot, who was kind of running and helping to run the writers and directors lab that a lot of filmmakers have come through, like Quentin Tarantino and Paul Thomas Anderson, Coogler came through it later, you know? But this was like nineteen ninety eight or seven or eight. They had remembered my short film from the festival and they were asking, you know, do you have? We have this program. It's like a writers and directors workshop where you come in for like a couple of weeks to Sundance Institute and you'll sort of workshop your script or workshop some scenes from it.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  And I was probably about a week into my script and I was like, yeah, I got a script.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  I was like, yeah, I got something. And they were like, okay, cool.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Submit it, turn it in. And then, so I'm like, now I'm scrambling because I'm like, okay, I gotta write the script. And at the time, I was working at the Nike store over Beverly Hills. I was working at the Nike town there. So I'd be, you know, slinging my sneakers during the day and then I would ride my bike because I didn't have a car. Rode my bike home and then I would write at night. And it was like my then girlfriend, now wife, would be like sleeping and I'm, you know, and I'm like writing in the corner at night on my like Apple two or whatever the hell it was.

• 11:01Keke Palmer?

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• 11:46Keke Palmer?

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• 12:14Speaker 01

  So I'd like scrambled to get the script in, turned it in, like, you know, just got it in on the deadline and they ended up taking and bidding that film into the lab and that's where it really sort of took off for me. You know, I got the, I did the labs and were there for, for three weeks and it was incredible experience. Michelle Satter still, you know, to this day runs the lab and, and that's where I met the producers.

• 12:44Keke Palmer?

  Who produced it?

• 12:45Speaker 01

  It was Ron Yerxa and Albert Berger. And at the time, they were doing a film called Election at Paramount. And, and with this, you know, sort of new thing called MTV Films. Back when MTV was a thing for the kids out there, there was this.

• 13:04Keke Palmer?

  I love Save the Last Dance.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Network, yeah, there was this network called MTV that actually played music videos during the day. That's how we, but they were like, okay, we're, we're all about this youth culture. So they were making films and they did, you know, Election, they did another film called Varsity Blues. And then, uh, so they were doing this project there and they read mine and they were like, well, we're, we're doing Election there. We actually think that because of the things they're trying to do and, and your film and where it's set. And, and, and I had all these, like, I had all the music cues that were in the movie written into the script because I wanted that to be like a part of the, yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 13:49Keke Palmer?

  That was all became one of my favorite songs as well growing up because of that movie and that scene.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's what, that's how it happened. So.

• 13:57Keke Palmer?

  And so was Omar Ebsen, Taye Diggs, did you, would you say that that movie discovered them kind of? I'm not sure of what was going on at that time.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  It's funny because yeah, Omar had, you know, Omar was like the most experienced because he had done Juice, you know, and, and he'd been around.

• 14:13Keke Palmer?

  Was this before Love and Basketball or after?

• 14:14Speaker 01

  It was Love and, it was before Love and Basketball. So he hadn't, you know, he was doing the most and, and kind of had broken, if you will. And so he was like the first person that, that came on board. I, I, you know, went so, was, you know, I ended up setting it up at MTV and Paramount. They decided to make it and Omar had actually read the script because we had done a. Like a, a reading, like, like just the script.

• 14:41Keke Palmer?

  Table read type thing.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a table read, script read at this spot called The Jazz Bakery.

• 14:46Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  So we did it there and like, we sent it to Omar and, and he responded to the script. And so he came and, and did the reading with a bunch of, you know, actors from LA. He had moved out here. He was from New York, but he like moved out to LA to. And so he read it and loved the script and was just like, man, this is like me and my boys. And even though I grew up, you know, east coast, this is just like us. And so, so he was like the first piece that came in. And then the next one was Tay and, and he was.

• 15:19Keke Palmer?

  He's so funny.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was.

• 15:21Keke Palmer?

  I'm a make her booty jiggle dude. Like, why?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  That was, that was a straight in prop. That was straight in prop.

• 15:26Keke Palmer?

  So good. So good.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  He's, you know, he's hilarious and, you know, he was coming off Rent, you know, he was in the.

• 15:34Keke Palmer?

  Which is so amazing to me that he's that kind of actor.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:37Keke Palmer?

  Where it's like he gives you totally Broadway theater.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:40Keke Palmer?

  And then he can jump right into this stuff. Like, I just, I mean, it's brilliant.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, no. So he had just been in Rent, just moved out to LA. And then he was kind of taking meetings and everyone was like, okay, you gotta meet this guy. Tay Diggs, theater actor, he's coming up, you know, definitely. And so we had like a meeting. It was funny because I remember, uh, we're both like broke, right? So we went to meet at this spot, uh, like on Pico's, like a, a deli. And so I, I'm like pulling up, my, my girl drops me off. And then he pulls up in this like beat up car, his girlfriend, Adina Menzel at the time.

• 16:19Keke Palmer?

  Your cat is.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. She's, so the Dina's driving this beat up car, right? Drops off Tay and is like, all right, see you later.

• 16:27Keke Palmer?

  Her dropping him off to the wood audition is giving me life.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So it was like, you know, so we meet and I'm like, I'm like, hey, what's up? You know, it's just my girl Dina. Hey, what's up? We both in the play.

• 16:37Keke Palmer?

  Come on, we both in the play.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We're both in the play. And that's where they met, exactly. And so we just really hit it off because he was just funny. And, and again, he was like, you know, he grew up upstate New York and was like, felt like sometimes he was like the little outcast. And so again, he could relate to these, these kids. So he came in and, and, and auditioned. And and he was the next one to come on and then and then Richard had also been sort of starting to, I forget what films he was in before, but I I I just liked him because one, he was tall and he had to play like the athlete and funny. And like a real actor's actor. So, you know, but he sounded like Denzel. So it was kind of like.

• 17:21Keke Palmer?

  And you have my guy playing the younger Omar character who had been in Fresh with Samuel Jackson. He's a great actor. He did The Corner as well.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. So that's how I knew Shawn Nelson and he came and so he came on around the same time. And and again, I'd seen Fresh and was a huge fan of that film. And it and it's, you know, and you know, because you grew up young actor.

• 17:43Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  It's tough to find.

• 17:45Keke Palmer?

  It is.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Young actors who, you know, no offense, haven't kind of been polluted by the whole child actor thing and especially out here because so many people want to get on and and commercials and and Disney and different things. And so there's like a thing I always find sometimes.

• 18:04Keke Palmer?

  It's like an over self-awareness of I'm a child kind of thing. As opposed to like being grounded in.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Just being an actor. Yeah. And I think there's always like, well, how do I be a child actor? And so he was a very, you know, he was very natural.

• 18:16Keke Palmer?

  He was.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  And real and and, you know, and grew up East Coast doing like a lot of independent cinema. And so I think he had a certain sensibility that I really liked. And I knew as a young actor, he'd be able to carry it because he would have to be like the heart of the of the film. So.

• 18:34Keke Palmer?

  And he absolutely was the heart of the film. I'm curious if there are any other actors that we know that tried to play some of those iconic roles.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Man, it's it's crazy, man, because I was like, I gotta pull out like all the audition tapes because it's like the journey to this. So, you know, one of the younger roles, Usher came in to to read. He was gonna play. Uh, the young Roland and so.

• 18:58Keke Palmer?

  The young K D.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so he wasn't usher yet. So he was kinda, he's, you know, he had his, he had his music, he was on. And so he came in and read, um, and was really good. He was great and like, really close to casting him. Um, but I think he was touring or something happened.

• 19:19Keke Palmer?

  Being Roland is the same, baby Roland.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  It's crazy. So, you know, I always think of like, you know, how fate happens and, and certain things, but he came in and read. Um, you know, Terrence Howard was another one who was, you know, I, I really loved and, and came in and read. But again, I think there was some scheduled things.

• 19:40Keke Palmer?

  Who was he maybe gonna be?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  He was gonna be the older Roland. Yeah, he was gonna be the older Roland.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  He had come in, I loved Tay, and so I just, again, it was like, he's the guy. So I, you know, um, and then Jamie Foxx was another one who came in too, which was crazy. Cause it was like, I was like, I gotta find these.

• 20:01Keke Palmer?

  Audition tapes.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Cause that, cause you know, cause they all came in when we were doing like the chemistry reads and trying to get everyone together.

• 20:09Keke Palmer?

  That's.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  And it's funny, cause Jamie was, you know, just starting to do his thing. He had like his, you know.

• 20:16Keke Palmer?

  Jamie Foxx show was on?

• 20:18Speaker 01

  No, this was before, cause he was doing, I think he was, I wanna say.

• 20:23Keke Palmer?

  Stand up?

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was on tour. He might've been coming off Living Color. I'm not, but he was starting to do his touring. And I went to one of his shows and it was incredible, cause he was doing his whole Jamie thing where it's funny, he was doing music. I was like, man, this dude's. And so he came in and read and again, you know, loved him, but he was touring and.

• 20:43Keke Palmer?

  Was it for Roland as well?

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's, Roland was heated, right?

• 20:49Keke Palmer?

  But Roland was so good and so funny.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:51Keke Palmer?

  Playing drunk. I mean, it's, people don't know with actors, it's very hard to play drunk.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:55Keke Palmer?

  And that whole movie, he's drunk maybe until the end of it where he, he finally comes to, but when he in it, oh boy. What you got grits in your hands? Ain't nobody cooking you breakfast? Like, the whole thing is so funny. And it has so much heart.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  No, and, and again, it's one of those things where you go, there's all these folks, but that was Tay's role. And you see someone in it and you kinda go. He's the person and you I can't see you can't see anybody else and so.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  And he was again, he's such a natural and again comedy is hard and.

• 21:26Keke Palmer?

  It is, yes.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  And and yeah, playing drunk is hard and trying to do all that while staying grounded and real. Is a challenge and and he has such a way he's like Cary Grant, you know, he's got this kind of elegance about him. So even when he's doing, you know, terrible shit, it's like, you know, he's like. You still root for him because he's handsome and he's like charming and it's like he's like always he's like that knucklehead that you just can't ever. Be mad at, so.

• 21:56Keke Palmer?

  Speaking of Cary Grant and just elegance, like black, white or otherwise, I think your films and for me, the introduction of the wood. It was literally classic black cinema and I'll even take the black out. It's just classic American cinema. Like it shows our world, our life and our culture, yes, our perspective, things seeing things from our eyes, but it's. It's just done in such a way that everyone can relate to. I remember I went seeing it recently at the rooftop cinema.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I heard about that, yeah.

• 22:26Keke Palmer?

  Man, everybody came out and we all were knowing the words. That was the most and that's what storytelling and art for me is about. Bringing the community together, making us all laugh, find joy, feel things. Oh, my gosh, being seventeen, man, I remember that's when everything was, you know. All of that stuff for you. The success of that film over years and over time, what is the gift of that? How do people come to you and speak of that film?

• 22:52Speaker 01

  I mean, it's it's amazing. It's hard to kind of wrap my head around it because. You know, you you make this stuff just because it's like, oh, this is. What's interesting to me and and I hope that people will get into it. And it's it is one of those films that it it really found its audience over time when it came out. You know, for lots of different reasons because of how they released films that, you know, with with black characters back in the day, they just would not go out on lots of screens.

• 23:25Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Uh, they would only go into cities and it was like a fight to get it into to different places. So when it initially came out, uh, it it did well for the budget. But there was a lot coming out, like Star Wars film came out like that summer and Eyes Wide Shut and American Pie. So there was a lot of stuff that came out.

• 23:47Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Around the same time. So it it found an audience and had that initial like people saw it. But I think it really kind of stayed and caught on over the years. So at first, you know, I'd be they'd be like, oh, what do you do for a living? I go there, I write, direct. And they'll go, what have you done? I'll say, the wood. And, you know, back in the day, it'd be like, I think I remember seeing that.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  And now it's like, you know, I'll see like someone, young, young dude, and and he'll ask me what I'm doing. I'll tell him and then he'll ask me what I made and I'll say, yeah, I did the wood. And then the the look on his face will be like, what, what, what, what? You did the wood? My, I grew up on that. And he'll say, my dad grew up on that. I'm like, oh, man.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  I'm like, your dad grew up on it. Oh, okay, I guess.

• 24:38Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. Now, you, I don't want to get the quote wrong, but you did say around the time you made the movie Dope, that you felt you had moved further and further away from the original voice you discovered with the wood. I'm curious what you meant by that and if you felt like you got back to it.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. No, I'm, you know, it's like I was able to make the wood. I was 24, right? When I shot that film and and I was two years out of film school. And so I was able to make this film when I was really young, coming out of school. But I, you know, I'm, it's all, at that point, it's instinct. You're not really a filmmaker. You're just trying to find your voice. So I was just, you know, I was just trying to make, do the best I can to.

• 25:23Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  To get it in the can and make my days and, uh.

• 25:27Keke Palmer?

  Come on, make my day.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And so, uh, it was just me and my heart and that was kind of what was there. And so then now it's like, okay, what do you do? How do you make a career out of this? How do you continue to? And that's where, over time, it just becomes, in the, in this business especially, was a, it was a struggle to really find those projects. It took another, after I did The Wood, there were different things that came and different projects. But it took another three, four years to get Brown Sugar off the ground.

• 25:58Keke Palmer?

  And when you mean projects, you mean just like, it takes a minute to be able to tell these kind of day in a life stories?

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:06Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, to put you away a little bit.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, even though The Wood did well, it wasn't like a monster hit, so it wasn't that thing where like, everyone's like, alright, let's keep doing these, so. You know, and there were folks out there, you know, Malcolm Lee was out there hustling to get, you know, Best Man, and obviously Gina, uh, you know, Trina Prince White Wood was doing, you know, Got Love and Basketball, so there were films and filmmakers starting to kind of change things, but it was still like tough, so there'd be big stretches in between those projects, and so I got to a point, you know, after I did Brown Sugar, which was another great success for me, and really,

• 26:46Speaker 01

  but it was, it took another, you know, I think it was like five, six years till my next project, which was, which was a film called Our Family Wedding.

• 26:54Keke Palmer?

  Yep, I saw that one too.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  And it was, uh, and you know, it was one of those things where you look back and you go, alright, I'm trying to make a film, I'm trying to feed my family and do things to support yourself. You go in with the best intentions, saying, I'm gonna take this project, you know, and even though there, there are things, I'm gonna rewrite it, I'm gonna make it work. You know how that is, you feel like you can get that script and you're gonna make it work. Um, and your brilliance of your filmmaking is gonna, is gonna bring it about, you know, and so I, you know, I did that project, and it, and it, and I, I wasn't artistically the thing, when, at the end of the day, that I really wanted it to be. It came out, it didn't do well.

• 27:41Keke Palmer?

  It happens.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  And, and so it was one of those things where after that, you know, I was in director jail, right? I was like. Direct to jail is hilarious.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  They locked up.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  It was like, yeah, I was like, okay, maybe this guy doesn't have it. So I was at this point, again, kind of like when I was first trying to get the wood made, where I was like, okay, I'm not really doing the thing I want to do. I'm chasing, I'm not really doing the thing. And, and I think it took getting to a place where I'd had this failure, where I sort of said, okay, again, what is the thing? If you're not thinking about that, you're not thinking about the green light, you're not thinking about the budget, what's the thing you'd want to make? And so I started thinking about the wood again. But, but really I started, it came to me because I was like, I was, you know,

• 28:37Speaker 01

  just kind of surfing and I saw like some YouTube videos from these kids from Inglewood, um, called Odd Future, you know? And so they were like.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  They were, yeah, so Tyler and them, and they were putting out these videos and they were, you know, silly and crazy, riding skateboards, doing stunts and, and talking shit to each other. And then I looked and I saw like, oh, wait a second, that's Burger King. That's the Burger King. Me and my boys used to hang out. That's where they're shooting their thing. And then I would look and see all these different spots in Inglewood. And it was like, oh my God, these guys are like the next generation of us, right? Like if we were growing up in Inglewood and we had like, you know, the iPhone, right? This is what we'd be.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Influences.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is what we'd be doing. And so I, I saw that and now that kind of inspired me because I was like, well, okay, this is interesting that you've got now this new group of kids who are growing up in Inglewood, you know, 10, 15 years after us, right? And, and now they got a completely different perspective on both growing up there and just who they are, right? You know? And so I was like, okay, this is interesting. Like what would it be like to go back to Inglewood and, and, but now take that same kind of concept, that coming of age story, but now. Give it a new point of view, give it a point of view of the kids that are there now

• 30:04Speaker 01

  and what they're dealing with. And also just, you know, I loved kind of the spirit of Tyler and this notion that even though I'm growing up here, I, you know, I'm doing all this stuff that everyone doesn't think a black kid's supposed to be doing, right? And, and he was doing it anyway with impunity and him and his friends were just being. And I was like, okay, this is, this is cool. This is something, because that's how we were. We were like those little oddballs who were doing stuff like that. Um, but again, we didn't have like the same kind of access and platform. You know, we, I had to go, actually go make a movie, right? Where Tyler could just be on his iPhone, film stuff, put it up.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  And now he's got like a platform. So I was like, all right, I want to, I want to do this. I want to kind of revisit the wood.

• 30:55Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  But for like a, a different generation. And so that's where dope came from. And, and that's what I meant, why I was like, okay, I need to get back to my voice and the things that, you know, that, uh, that really speak to me.

• 31:11Keke Palmer?

  So let's talk about my voice, because you said something here that I think is really true earlier on, where you were talking about, you know, you don't really know exactly what your voice is in the beginning, right? It's instincts and everybody else kind of almost knows your voice damn near more than you do. I experienced that even, you know, it's starting out very young. People seen it. I just felt it. So what would you say? How, how would you articulate what your voice, what Rick's voice is as a filmmaker?

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Ooh, man, it's hard. I mean, I don't, yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because I think more, when I talk to people, they tell me stuff, right? And they'll say, oh, I see these patterns, you know, in your, in your films. And I'm like, okay, you know, because I think you're doing your art and there are things that I think really speak to you. Um, but you're not conscious of it sometimes. And so, again, I grew up watching like big Hollywood movies. And so those are the things that influenced me as a. As a kid growing up, and so those stories, I've always tried to translate, but I've wanted to do it from a perspective that I didn't see on the screen.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  You know, I could relate to that family in E.T. Because, you know, I was raised by a single mom. And so seeing that circumstance was like, okay, this is relatable, but it wasn't a black family up there. And so I always want to be about telling these types of stories, but bringing that perspective that not that it's about, you know, it's not that it's about being black per se, but I think being black in America brings a certain perspective to how you see the world and how you see genre and how you see action and how you see comedy.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  And that's big mainstream filmmaking, but it's just coming from a different point of view.

• 33:10Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  And it's still, it's still the thing that people can connect to. And I've often found like the more specific I get about my experience and that experience, the more people say I relate to it, even though I go, you couldn't have been a black kid growing up. Because I've had like, you know, old white ladies come up and say, this, this film speaks to me, you know, when Dope came out. And I was like, that's funny.

• 33:34Keke Palmer?

  It's so classic. It really, really is so classic. There's a classicness to it. And I mean, I agree with you, like, I think there's nothing that I would compare to it, but I could say in my mind, you tell so many brilliant coming of age stories of all angles. No matter if somebody getting married, doesn't matter if somebody's a young kid, it doesn't matter if someone's in the Mandalorian. I was very blown away to know that you were doing that because that took the character and story to, I'm also building worlds. What, was you ready for that? Maybe you was ready for that. How did you feel coming into that? Was it like, oh, my gosh, where do I go? How does this work? Or was it innate immediately?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Well, look, that was, it was a dream. I mean, the first film I saw in the movie theater was Star Wars. So that was the film that really. You know, sparked my imagination as it did for a ton of people, right? I'm not the first to to say that. So that was always, in terms of where I would want to be, making and being in that world was always a goal. Even if when I was starting, it seemed like, how's this ever gonna happen? Like I said, George Lucas was a big influence and, you know, I went to USC and the damn, the building is called the George Lucas Building, right? That you take your classes. So this was where I wanted to be.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  And it's funny, like, you know, that whole notion of when you, you know, I've learned that when you really stay true to who you are as an artist, that's when the things happen, you know? You, you always try to plot and plan. And so it was dope, honestly. That was the film that, you know, Jon Favreau's kids saw Dope and, and loved it. And they spoke to him about it and said, you know, you gotta see this movie. So he's, he saw Dope kind of at the urging of his kids and, and just really responded to it. And so as, you know, when he was putting the, the show together and sort of thinking about who to bring on to collaborate, this was on the front of his mind.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  And I had, you know, I had actually met with Lucasfilm and the people over there after Dope as well, because they saw the film and, and wanted to.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  I mean, it was wildly successful.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, and it was one of those things where again, it's like, you know, who knew this would be the thing? Like to kind of unlock. And so he was putting it together and, and they were like, John would like to meet, we'd like to have a meeting. I'm like, yeah, sure, uh, I'll take a meeting. And I'm thinking, you know, I'm a fan of his work. And so I sit down, he calls me into his, uh, like conference room. And, and in the conference room are like the concept art. Of like all this stuff, there's like a dude looking like Boba Fett and I'm watching and, you know, and I'm looking at all these landscapes. And so he starts to talk to me, of course, talks about the film and how much he loved it. And then asked me about Star Wars. I'm like, of course, I'm a huge

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Star Wars geek. And so then he starts to talk about this concept of this show and he starts to pitch me on the thing that he's doing. And so he talks about the show, he talks about the bounty hunter. And he says, you know, that the final bounty at the end, the pilot is this kid who is 50 years old, but you know,

• 36:56Speaker 01

  but you know, which is that what throws everyone off, but it's it's this kid. Um, and so I'm like, wow, this is, this is crazy that this is what you're doing. And so he's like, yeah, I'm a huge fan of yours. He's like, so would you like to direct the second one?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Cause I'm, you know, he's writing and Dave Filoni doing the first, he's like, would you want to do the second one? And I'm like, let me think about that. Let me think about that, John. I'll get back to you. But I was like, hell, yeah, of course, you know, so I didn't, you know, I'm thinking it's like a general meeting and he's like,

• 37:30Keke Palmer?

  He already had it.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Offered me, yeah, he's like,

• 37:32Keke Palmer?

  Those are the best ones to go. So thank God you had something, cause I had nothing.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Exactly. So when I jumped into it, you know, it was always my ambition, but I'd never been in a world that big with, you know, that level of visual effects. And so it was an incredible experience because you had Jon Favreau, who's innovated in so many ways, uh, filmmaking and is just sort of the dean of all of this stuff. And I felt like I was studying under like the dean of huge blockbuster filmmaking and especially in visual effects. So that first season was, you know, a huge learning experience because it was sort of seeing the process of how these films get made.

• 38:18Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, and that world aspect.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  And how the worlds get built. But then, you know, what was interesting is that after you get past the like, oh my God, it's Star Wars and oh my God, the budgets and the scale. It still comes down to, you know, story and character. And what made that show work is people could connect to

• 38:40Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  this unlikely father figure who now has to take care of this child. And that's the thing that everybody connected to. And that's the thing that even though it's Star Wars, it's like, that's what I like to do. Or these sort of human stories, even though the character is not human, right?

• 38:59Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  But the emotions and the feelings around them are. And so the second episode, while it had like these incredible set pieces, was really the episode after he gets the bounty where, you know, it's just about that relationship between the father and then this kid, this guy who has, what am I supposed to do with this little thing here? And there was no dialogue for most of the like first half of the, cause like he gives me this like script that's like 12 pages.

• 39:32Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Basically, so, and so I'm sitting like, okay, how am I gonna do this? And then again, full circle, it took me back to film school and watching Chaplin and, you know, and all these films.

• 39:46Keke Palmer?

  And you do it in a lot of the films. Yeah. I've seen it where you, the landscape, the look, the couch, where we stop, where we do close up on the eyes.

• 39:59Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so I know y'all caught last night's premiere of The Bachelor, right? Didn't I tell you that'd be a quiz? Look, it's fine, because if you didn't, I'll let you hop on over to Hulu to get caught up. Now that that's out of the way, didn't I tell y'all that man was fine and genuine and kind-hearted and really sweet? And did I mention fine? This is the sort of television that I live for, the romance, the drama, watching all these beautiful people gallivant and coveart all over the mansion. Oh, my heart's fluttering just thinking about it. Will Grant choose Savannah, the blonde bombshell from Virginia? Or Kelsey, the gorgeous goddess from Brooklyn? Or any of the other beautiful and intelligent women vying for his love?

• 40:42Keke Palmer?

  Y'all know I have no horse in this race, but I am locked in. Listen, if there was ever a time for a wine-fueled watch party with the besties, it's Mondays at 8/7 central, darling. New episodes of The Bachelor air every Monday at 8/7 central on ABC. And as always, you can choose to stream it on Hulu too. Now where's my rose?

• 41:05Speaker 01

  And I want to throw in a little dope fun fact that people may not know.

• 41:08Keke Palmer?

  Please tell, go.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Well, how we met.

• 41:11Keke Palmer?

  Exactly. We met for dope.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:14Keke Palmer?

  Yup, we sure did.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  There was a young woman who was supposed to play the role of Diggy.

• 41:19Keke Palmer?

  Yup.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  And you read the script and we met on that role and you were supposed to play that role. And then you got this incredible opportunity. I want to say the talk show was starting or something.

• 41:36Keke Palmer?

  I know what it was, because I hated that.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  And you hit me and you were like, I can't do it by schedule. I gotta go do the show.

• 41:44Keke Palmer?

  This is crazy. I'm gonna find out what the hell this was.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  But it was like, but it's one of those things where again, it's like.

• 41:50Keke Palmer?

  And that's why I need to do something with you.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  We're going to. I'm waiting. I've been waiting 10 years.

• 41:56Keke Palmer?

  Me too.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  I've been waiting 10 years. So, so anyway, I just want to, that's why this was such a great full circle. Because what you've been doing since then has just been incredible to see. So, you know, so when you were like, hey, do you want to do this? I was like, of course, of course.

• 42:16Keke Palmer?

  Well, you've always been such a huge inspiration to me for everything that you've said. I feel like you changed everything. When I look at films that include us, but again, not just like. Across the board.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:31Keke Palmer?

  It's they're brilliant films.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Wow, wow, thank you so much.

• 42:34Keke Palmer?

  And you may be doing Uptown Saturday Night.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. I mean, that's.

• 42:40Keke Palmer?

  I saw that.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  I mean, that was.

• 42:42Keke Palmer?

  I grew up watching that, Let's Do It Again, huge to my family.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  That was something, I don't know what the status is now, but yeah, that's one of those where it's been.

• 42:51Keke Palmer?

  Mulling it out.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  We've been trying to make that, yeah, we've been trying to make that thing happen.

• 42:55Keke Palmer?

  I saw I had Kevin Hart on that. I think him and Marla Wayans would be sick.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:59Keke Palmer?

  That's just me throwing my bid in, what I'll be thinking is good.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Put that, put it out there in the universe.

• 43:03Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  So it's, you know, you know how it is, it's hard.

• 43:06Keke Palmer?

  It is.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  To get these things together. And now we're at this place where studios are trying to figure out what they're doing. But that was, yeah, that was a film, again, in film school, I watched that movie and all three of them. And it was, again, one of those that really influenced me, because it was like, oh, okay, here's, you know, Sidney. Doing this, yeah, and Bill doing this stuff. Yeah, Bill, Bill, you know, I mean, you know, Bill.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  I know, you gotta do that now, like, you gotta be like, hmm.

• 43:37Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:41Keke Palmer?

  But the movie was.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  But the movie, yeah.

• 43:43Keke Palmer?

  And I feel like it was something, when I saw you doing that, to me, it felt like a perfect match.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:48Keke Palmer?

  So I was like, oh, yeah, I could see that. So, you know, we'll see if it happens. People always think I'm in Sister Act Three, I haven't got a script yet. So it's the same vibe, you know what I mean? But I hope one day.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 43:57Keke Palmer?

  And the last question goes into, and last question leading into the game.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 44:01Keke Palmer?

  I will say, um, has something to do kind of with what you said. Well, once you said, make it under 10 million. Put this much into marketing, make 25 to 35 million dollars, and we'll walk away with profitable films. As long as you can deliver scripts that are under 10 million with no effects, that you can shoot in 30 days and get back X amount. I think you'll always have a steady stream of a certain kind of film. Kind of your breakdown of what it is to make a film, probably especially as a black creator, trying to get something done.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:31Keke Palmer?

  Do you still think it's that way? I know for me, I think, I think it is.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's part of the, the economics of, of film and filmmaking.

• 44:40Keke Palmer?

  For sure.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Which are wrong, right? And I, and I, and I think it's, uh, it's been proven wrong time and time again. But it's always the, the safe place, um, when it comes to, to films that, you know, I guess are called niche, but they're not, right? Uh, you know, at the end of the day, these are all mainstream stories and, and the reality is we're in a world, both in terms of our own country, both in terms of what's happening globally, that's, you know, culturally and ethnically and racially diverse, right? And, and so the idea that, you know, these films should be made at a certain budget and a certain price because they only reach a certain audience is wrong and broken.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  But yeah, that's always the challenge. And that was the challenge on, I think, almost any film I've tried to make.

• 45:31Keke Palmer?

  Me too, even still to this day.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because what happens is, okay, for us, you know, and you know, especially when you have experience and you've worked a lot and you know what it takes, as you do, and you say, okay, I know this is what the budget needs to be. I know this is how we need to support it. And it doesn't matter because there's a certain box that it gets put into. And so I think there's been progress in breaking that to some degree, but I think that's still a challenge. You know, you have to make big bets on creative people and say, I believe in an idea and, and then go do it. Um, we work in a town where you have to show, okay, so yeah, Jordan Peele, you've, you've showed this, so now we'll, you know, we'll give you a little more money.

• 46:17Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. No, seriously.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  They won't give you as much as, but yeah, you know, but it's still.

• 46:22Keke Palmer?

  It's true.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  But I think that's the thing. That has always been the struggle, but I think what the business has to understand is that if it's gonna survive, it can't continue to think that way. Cause then now you are making niche movies if you're making the same thing with the same leads and the same places over and over again. And I think there's part of what we're dealing with in the town is people are tired of that. They wanna see new things and that's gonna come, like I was saying, from just bringing different perspectives to these worlds. That's what happened in Mandalorian by bringing, you know, me into the world or Deborah Chow or Lee Isaac Chung, you know, there are people who come into these worlds and bring their own points of view.

• 47:06Keke Palmer?

  And like you said, just great filmmakers.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, great filmmakers.

• 47:10Keke Palmer?

  That's it. It doesn't have to be, you know, great filmmakers with particular perspectives, but let's stop over focusing on the things that shouldn't matter.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

• 47:19Keke Palmer?

  In that regard, you know, that make it niche somehow.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:21Keke Palmer?

  Okay. Obviously, I've really enjoyed chatting with you and I could literally talk to you forever.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  It's been great, it's been fun.

• 47:27Keke Palmer?

  I mean, you're so amazing. Now, I always play a game with my guests before they leave.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 47:33Keke Palmer?

  This one's called Quickies with Kiki. Basically, I'll just ask you a list of rapid fire questions.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 47:39Keke Palmer?

  And you tell me which you prefer, sound good?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  All right, let's see what, let's see what you got.

• 47:44Keke Palmer?

  Stream it on Netflix or premiere in theaters?

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Theaters.

• 47:48Keke Palmer?

  Creative freedom or box office success?

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Creative freedom.

• 47:53Keke Palmer?

  Sacrifice sleep for creativity or sacrifice creativity for balance?

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, creativity for balance, gotta have balance.

• 48:02Keke Palmer?

  Yes!

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Yes, or that doesn't happen.

• 48:06Keke Palmer?

  Okay, focus on telling black stories or explore universal themes beyond race? I know this one.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Think the latter, but it's all, yeah.

• 48:14Keke Palmer?

  Universal themes can't go wrong.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  But it's all universal, it's all universal.

• 48:17Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly, it is. Work with an unknown actor or A-list stars?

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Unknown actor.

• 48:25Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I knew that, I mean, yeah, I knew that, I knew that.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  I love, I love my stars, but yeah, I love that, you know, the energy of working with new, new talent and seeing them grow. So, yeah, that, definitely that.

• 48:37Keke Palmer?

  Well, I love you, Rick, we gotta do this on set sometime. You let me know whatever you got going on again.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  I mean, same, same, same. I've been waiting, like I said, 10 years, tell her.

• 48:50Keke Palmer?

  Oh, I'm so glad we got into this.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yes.

• 48:57Keke Palmer?

  Rick drops so much wisdom that I almost can't take it. Okay, I think my biggest takeaway would be that finding your creative voice is not just about telling your own story. It's about listening to your heart. Listen to your heart, your gut, and your brain, and being, what? Fearless in drawing from whatever influences speak to you and taking on whatever projects you feel compelled to. We're in a position to shape the culture like never before. So stay bold in your creativity. And I'll be back next week because you know it's you, girl.

• 49:38Keke Palmer?

  Enjoy Baby This is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts, and now on YouTube where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the Wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby This is Keke Palmer early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

• 50:02Keke Palmer?

  Baby This is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post-producer. Music supervisor is Scott Valesquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonti. Our producer is Tristan McNeil. Senior producers are Lizzie Bassett and Candace Manriquez-Rin. Our executive producers are Dave Easton and Marshall Louie.