Whitley Strieber: "Aliens Live Among Us" (Exclusive Interview)

Qualia: Resist aging at the cellular level, try Qualia Senolytic. Go to https://Qualialife.com/JESSE for up to 50% off and use code JESSE at checkout for an additional 15% off. For your convenience Qualia Senolytic is also available at select GNC locations near you. Mando: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get $5 off your Starter Pack (that’s over 40% off) with promo code COSMIC at https://ShopMando.com ! #mandopod Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with renowned author Whitley Strieber to discuss the cultural significance of Whitley's groundbreaking book "Communion," which opened dialogue around alien abduction experiences. Whitley reflects on the book's impact, his unexpected feelings of initiating contact with extraterrestrial entities, and his familial connections to government circles. Whitley Strieber's book "Communion": https://amzn.to/3ED4dGM Watch Exclusive Videos & Join Group Calls with Jesse ➤ https://whop.com/americanalchemypremium Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 01:59 The Impact of Communion 05:08 The Government's Response 08:50 Robert Sarbacher 19:30 John Von Neumann 26:25 The Nature of Reality 31:30 Embracing Humanity's Dark Side 37:39 Childhood Memories and Experiments 45:08 Unraveling the Past 53:54 The Nature of the Greys 1:02:37 Telepathy and Human Connection 1:10:28 The Future of Coexistence 1:18:49 The Implant Revelation 1:25:47 The Collins Elite 1:35:25 The CT Scan Conundrum 1:39:36 Insights into the Implant 1:45:34 Meeting Anne 1:56:23 The Blue Dwarfs 2:05:01 The Inquisition vs. Galileo 2:10:35 The Shroud of Turin 2:21:54 The Miracle of Existence Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  I think, oh my god, I have a shotgun under the bed and a pistol in the side table. I'm from Texas and I'm gonna be gunned up at all times.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  At some point, I was standing in front of the bookstore and that book just stood, you know, stood out for me and something about seeing the eyes again that almost created like a moment of regression.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  It might be that this is a time right now where we have to be very careful about preserving our dominion of our reality.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  There's something in your body that you believe is an implant, I feel like.

• 0:39Speaker 00

  Right here.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  Can we see it?

• 0:41Speaker 00

  Can you touch it? You can't, I don't, you touch it if you want to. I feel like two years, I can give you a CT scan over the.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Is it okay? Was it weird if I touch it or is it okay?

• 0:49Speaker 00

  No, it's fine.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  But I feel like.

• 0:51Speaker 00

  I might be a little hot, this has been working. Two, three years ago?

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Uh, two, three years ago, if you had.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  If you had told someone. Go ahead, touch it, don't be scared.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 0:59Speaker 00

  Like, here, here.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  I'm kind of scared.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  It's right under my finger now.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:10Speaker 00

  Different parts of the brain have different activities. But you know that, don't you?

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Maybe you should interview me.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  We are here with the legendary Whitley Strieber. Uh, outside of writing maybe the archetypal Alien Abduction book, uh, Communion in 1987, which, uh, sold an incredible amount of copies, inspired a Christopher Walken movie and has started all sorts of mythological lore and really, uh, made it acceptable for other direct experiencers to come out, uh, along with doing so many other things. I mean, I literally just bought a book by Stanton Friedman, uh, called Top Secret. It's about, you know, the Majestic Twelve. And he wrote the foreword to it. And so you seem to kind of pop up everywhere. And I'm also joined by.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Amar Kandil, who is the number one supporter of American Alchemy, is one-third or one-fourth of Yes Theory, founder of Yes Theory. And I'm always so honored to be graced by his presence at our very small, humble operation at American Alchemy. It's my favorite operation on YouTube, that's for sure. And it's always an honor to just do this together and meet all the amazing people that you just brought into my life over the past three years. Appreciate you, man. Well, you've been really pushing me to do this. You and Whitley met, we all met, actually, at the Seoul Conference. We got lunch before that, but we kind of reconvened at the Seoul Conference, which was held by Gary Nolan at Stanford last year.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  And you guys really hit it off. And since then, Amar has been like, you gotta interview Whitley, you gotta interview Whitley.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I'm glad you're doing it.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Adding to Jesse's intro and even emphasizing the title Legendary. I mean, you know, I put this on, it's my first time wearing it. And I think about like, it's just this figure, our modern depiction of the Grace, and how much that was massively influenced by you and the book and communion, and you being able to have the sketch be so accurate that it just awakens something in millions of...

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was the eyes mainly that awakened something in people. I have to say, though, if they finally land and come out and they don't look like that, I will experience the most profound embarrassment in human history, in my opinion.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Because you think that they will look slightly different?

• 3:47Speaker 00

  No, I don't think they'll look different. I think that, I think that, well, they're not going to look exactly like the cover, but they're gonna have those big eyes, I'm pretty sure.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  You're responsible for the emoji we all use while texting. No, and it's been such a theme over the past, you know, four years of looking into this topic and meeting people with Jesse and without Jesse. Constantly come back to, in the 90s, at some point, I was standing in front of a bookstore. And that book just like stood, you know, stood out for me and something about seeing the eyes again that almost created like a moment of regression for so many experiencers.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  And I almost reflect now, you know, this is the end of 2024. The entire country seems to be talking about drones and UFOs and it's like the most in the zeitgeist that's been in my, my lifetime. And, uh, and yeah, and I think about like the other moment that, you know, before two, before the 2000 where that happened was when communion came out.

• 4:47Speaker 00

  Right, but there's a significant difference between the two times because when communion came out, it's very interesting. Uh, I was told a publication date and then all of a sudden the books were in bookstores. And my editor was very coy about it. I said, what? You jumped it. In other words, books, boxes of books appeared without warning at bookstores all over the country. And he said, well, we felt like there was some kind of resistance. I said, what do you mean? He said, I'm not sure. And I don't know whether he meant, I'm not sure I should tell you, or I'm not sure of the resistance. But for some reason they jumped the book about two weeks and it showed up.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  It, you know, when I was writing that book, I, it, it crossed my mind that it was going to initiate contact for the ordinary people, which is exactly what it did. Uh, I don't know, I might've frozen up. I, it never occurred to me, never even crossed my mind. Uh, I was aware by then, uh, that there were people inside the government who had had a certain amount of contact because I had met a, a space scientist, David W. Webb, who had come into our lives, I think through Stanton Friedman, the UFO researcher. And he was very well connected in the intelligence community and very supportive and very friendly.

• 6:14Speaker 00

  And he met us for dinner and came and stayed at the cabin and said it was, I was doing a wonderful thing and so forth and so on. He was very sweet. Uh, so I knew the government was aware of this, of this whole abduction scenario. And I think now that they've understood the full extent of it, they might not be so willing to say they were aware of it then. But, uh, in any case.

• 6:41Speaker 00

  The fact that this period, this thing that happened in eighty-five initiated contact is still sort of surprises me because I don't feel like the sort of per- I don't feel like I don't see how it could be me that did it.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  And that's exactly why I felt like we needed to have a conversation with you because now that just people are more accepting of the idea that the NHI is most likely involved with disclosure and things moving in the way they have been. I often think I'm like, well, something was very specific about choosing you to have this experience, knowing your background, successful rider, you know, could deliver an experience and articulate what he went through in a, in a way that can make other people connect with that. And I, and I often come back to like, how, how do you, how do you make sense of that today?

• 7:36Speaker 00

  Oh, I know exactly why they chose me. I can tell you precisely. Well, they chose me for a number of reasons. First, it's a family affair. My, one of my uncles was heavily involved in this at Wright-Patt.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  General Axon?

• 7:52Speaker 00

  No, he's, he's my Uncle Mickey and General Axon were, worked at the Air Material Command in forty-seven. And my father was apparently involved, but he was so secretive, I, I have no idea whether or not he was.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  And your father's in Air Force Office?

• 8:07Speaker 00

  No, no, he was, he was in the, well, he was in the army during the war. And then there were a couple of incidents in childhood that seemed to me in retrospect to involve this, but that's not where I want to go right now. Where, where I'd like to go right now is into this, this issue of, of why me? And that was part of it. I mean, I don't want to go down the road of the details about the family connection. But the most important part is, and I have come to- An awareness, and I'm pretty sure I'm right, that they are very concerned about something

• 8:49Speaker 00

  called cultural colonization. In other words, if they show up with this amazing array of being, skills, technology, mind, they're gonna overwhelm us and make us feel completely disempowered, and they don't want that. They're not looking for slaves, they're looking for friends. And they don't want us to be running around behind them begging for their cellphones or whatever, their cellphones to the beyond or whatever they have. And so, the choice of this guy, I can tell a good story, I'm an efficient writer, but I don't come from

• 9:33Speaker 00

  authority. I'm not a scientist, I'm not Carl Sagan. I'm not, I don't, I can't, you can take my work and you can say, "He was a horror novelist." And maybe he wasn't making as much money as he wanted on his horror novels, so he wrote a horror novel and called it real. In other words, you can just opt out, if you want to, with me. If it was a scientist with a big PhD and a lot of authority, you couldn't opt out. So with me, it's take it or leave it. You can take it, it's accurate, the story is real, and especially if it happened to you, you're gonna be able to, you're gonna say, "Wow, this is deeply empowering to me."

• 10:17Speaker 00

  And that's, this is what they wanted, and I think that's why I ended up where I was.

• 10:22Jesse Michels?

  Wow, that's amazing. So you were kind of chosen as a, I mean, something that you've talked about as well is the great John von Neumann, who is known for being an absolute genius in his time, smarter than all of the other incredibly smart scientists in the US, Hungarian, and studied at a very, you know, actually notorious school in Hungary with, along with his colleague Jonathan Wigner, and was just known as, you know, laid the mathematical foundations for quantum mechanics, a lot of modern computational principles. He has said, and you've cited- He's written a paper on the aliens possibly needing to be believed into existence. And if they do exist in some sort of parallel timeline or dimension,

• 11:05Jesse Michels?

  that human consensus belief needs to shift into kind of actually manifesting them. And so you would be an incredibly important kind of first node of creating that sort of belief.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, and that has been the source of a lot of friction for me in my life. Internal friction and friction with people on the inside who are aware of what you just said. Now, as far as this goes, let's go back and let's explore von Neumann a little bit. Very interesting. He came up with, he was involved in this. I think that we're past the point of saying, oh, these scientists who were supposedly in the Majestic Twelve group, if that was even his real name, that's all nonsense. It's just Stan Friedman made the whole thing up. That's not true. They were involved.

• 12:00Jesse Michels?

  A couple of data points to support you before you go on is Robert Sarbacher said John von Neumann was directly involved.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:07Jesse Michels?

  And von Neumann died of a really kind of gnarly form of cancer. And he had Secret Service outside of the naval hospital that he was in.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  Because they were afraid of what he might say.

• 12:19Jesse Michels?

  That's exactly right. Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  Well, you know, I knew Robert Sarbacher.

• 12:23Jesse Michels?

  You knew Sarbacher?

• 12:24Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely.

• 12:24Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 12:25Speaker 00

  Stan Friedman was a catalyst. And he introduced me to Robert Sarbacher and to other people.

• 12:33Jesse Michels?

  Do you think Sarbacher was involved? And then we'll get back to.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, I knew Sarbacher was involved. In fact, I'll tell you a fairly weird story here. Stan gave me Sarbacher's number. And then he called me back and he said, Sarbacher is waiting for you to call him. He's very eager to talk to you. So I call Sarbacher. Sarbacher.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Proceeds to tell me all kinds of detail about the materials that he was was working on at the Patel Memorial Institute about how when when electron microscopes became operative, he they understood that there was a molecular grid, a designed grid inside the inside this very thin material and that was what made it so strong. And I think that's probably been extrapolated out into our military technology in many different ways, possibly civilian as well. And he asked me, I narrated my experience to him. This is before Commun was even written.

• 13:37Jesse Michels?

  How'd you meet him?

• 13:38Speaker 00

  Through.

• 13:39Jesse Michels?

  Stan Friedman, okay.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  So, and I narrated it to him and he said, I want you to write it all down and send it to me. So the next day I sat at my typewriter, I wrote the whole story out. I put it in an envelope and we weren't near, we were, I was at my cabin in upstate New York and we were not near FedEx, but UPS had just started overnighting and so they were willing to come pick it up. So I called the UPS office and they came along and they picked it up to take it to Sarbock. The next morning, I get a call from the UPS guy on the scene saying, we can't deliver it. The recipient has expired. He's dead. He died.

• 14:26Jesse Michels?

  Sarbocker?

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, that came to him.

• 14:29Jesse Michels?

  Give me chills, wow.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  The night he died.

• 14:32Jesse Michels?

  But that was after Commun. This must have been eighty.

• 14:35Speaker 00

  No, it was eighty six. I believe it was eighty six.

• 14:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he died right around then. I thought he wrote to Williamson.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Well, it was, it was while Commun at that point was being created and that I'm quite sure of, I'm quite sure of the date.

• 14:49Jesse Michels?

  Wow, that's crazy.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  It was very scary and I've.

• 14:53Jesse Michels?

  Do you think it was related to your correspondence?

• 14:55Speaker 00

  I have no idea. He was, I was told later that he fell off his boat and I know the UPS guy said he fell off his boat and.

• 15:06Speaker 00

  The death certificate says natural causes.

• 15:08Jesse Michels?

  Well, the context around what was happening at this time is Sarbacher had just written a letter to William Steinman, who's another UFO researcher, who was actually an employee of Skunk Works, who got basically fired over his research around UFOs. And he was saying, you know, yes, there was a program and Von Neumann, Vannevar Bush, Oppenheimer were all involved. And he says these beings are like insects, you know, they're very lightweight. And he talks about crafts and stuff. So maybe he was killed for you're running his mouth or something.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 15:40Jesse Michels?

  He was head of Washington National Labs and David Grush has said on record that he set up UFO secrecy in 1954. And I know he was very close with Thomas Townsend Brown, who was a mid-century antigravity.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  Who set up UFO secrecy?

• 15:52Jesse Michels?

  Sarbacher, along with Oppenheimer.

• 15:54Speaker 00

  Well, what's so fascinating about this is Sarbacher would, he talked about it very openly.

• 15:59Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's the thing. He was then, I didn't realize he died like that. He was scrubbed from the internet. There is nothing on Sarbacher now. All you can see is a little memorial from, you know, I think it's some Florida local magazine or whatever.

• 16:14Speaker 00

  I know other people who are deep inside who were like that, who were extraordinary, had extraordinary lives, and now you can barely find them on the internet.

• 16:20Jesse Michels?

  Like who?

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Well, we're not going to jump down that path. Let's keep talking about Sarbacher.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  Well, maybe, and maybe, maybe talking to me was a mistake. I was very frightened by it. I'll tell you that. And if you read Communion, you'll see my references to this, but I don't mention his name in Communion because I was scared to.

• 16:43Jesse Michels?

  That was Sarbacher. Well, Sarbacher's son has now gone on record saying, my father told me that he used to put cameras on, you know, modified versions of VT rockets in order to chase UFOs.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  That sound has a familiar ring. He might have said that to me, actually.

• 17:00Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 17:01Speaker 00

  I don't remember directly, but it does have a familiar ring.

• 17:03Jesse Michels?

  Well, that was more and more is coming out about Sarbacher and Ross Colthard has some interesting data points around some of the nuclear engineers, old timers that he's met with in Australia. Knowing who Sarbacher was, or I think Sarbacher even taking a trip out there because they had their Wumera nuclear test site.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Right.

• 17:22Jesse Michels?

  And so there being some correspondence there. And so that's fascinating. You didn't realize.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  After context, when we, when we did the documentary with Rush last year, I asked him, there is one person that you can ask questions that can lay out, that can allow you to understand the architecture of the program. Who would it be? And he said it was Sarbacher.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  How fascinating. Because Sarbacher spent a couple of hours on the phone with me. So they knew, they knew what was happening to me. They had to have known or he wouldn't have done that.

• 17:50Jesse Michels?

  Well, when, when Townsend Brown finally achieved a positive result with his anti-gravity experiments, this was in Paris. He flies back to the US and Robert Sarbacher picks him up in his, in his big Cadillac. And, uh, you know, that's, that's a noted by his daughter, Linda, and, and, and his historian, Paul Schatzkin. And so I think, uh, you know, he was, he seemed deeply involved in all this stuff and he, he's written big textbooks. He was known for having, you know, an IQ of 200 plus. And, um, I think having some correspondence with.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  Is Sarbacher in front of? Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was obviously extremely smart, very quick.

• 18:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  And, uh, full of insight, by the way, and, uh,

• 18:33Speaker 00

  really, I think he did a lot of good in this world.

• 18:35Jesse Michels?

  That must have been encouraging for you before community was made to just know that you were.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  Well, the first time I wrote it down was for him.

• 18:41Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 18:42Speaker 00

  Oh, and UPS said, we'll, we'll send the thing back to you, but I never received it.

• 18:48Jesse Michels?

  He's written a book too about ultra-high-frequency physics, which is basically if you think about what happens at ultra-high frequencies, that's the stuff that the National Science Foundation is now quietly admitting, unfortunately, the necessary and only impetus that will allow us to release suppressed science is kind of game theory vis-à-vis other countries and national security, but they're now releasing this vert model of extended electrodynamics, which you could say people like Starbacher were probably looking into in the 50s, because these were sort of microwave, really extremely, you know, high up the electromagnetic scale, you know, very short wavelengths, that have all sorts of weird effects, you know, and explain a lot of the biological effects as well when it comes to UFOs, so.

• 19:33Speaker 00

  Well, that's very interesting. I haven't kept up with that. I want to get, let's get back though to von Neumann.

• 19:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  Because, and parenthetically, on the way back to von Neumann, he didn't tell me personally, but he told a member of my family, not von Neumann, General Exon, that he had held when the debris and bodies were brought into air material, he had held one of the bodies, and he said-

• 20:06Jesse Michels?

  This is from the Roswell crash?

• 20:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. He had said, he said it was like a big insect.

• 20:12Jesse Michels?

  Insect, yes.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  And that's certainly my impression of them, only, they're not big. I mean, there's, some of them are very small, that some of them are bigger, but that was, that night when I woke up in that room, my immediate thought was, my god, bugs, huge bugs, and that's why I thought I was having a nightmare, because I came to this with no idea it could happen. Now, let's get back to von Neumann.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  Von Neumann, there's two things, there's the Von Neumann machine, which is, he postulated a machine that would replicate the species that built it, and would then move around the galaxy looking for planets that it could seed. What if, that's what we have here? Only Von Neumann, in his, I don't recall if it's in very much detail in the writings he did about this, but he does mention that something like that, over vast amounts of time, would inevitably have a certain amount of deterioration of its, its memory.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  What if what we have here is something that was programmed to seed planets like this, but not programmed to find someone else? Because they had as much trouble as we're having finding other people and decided there weren't any. And so it arrives, it finds us and doesn't know what to do. And that's why we have this bizarre situation that if you look, step back from the whole thing, it could be, it looks a little bit like an AI that has gone berserk. Von Neumann, the Von Neumann machine could be an explanation for why this is so peculiar, let me put it that way.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  But the other thing that Von Neumann, and you referenced briefly this paper earlier, there is supposedly a paper. And General Exon, who was no scientist, but had been exposed to a lot of scientists involved in this and was very smart, tried to explain this to me. And of all the scientists who were involved in it, I thought he was most likely talking about something that Von Neumann would have thought of, would have conceived. There could have been other scientists involved in it that I don't know about, but...

• 22:44Speaker 00

  The paper supposedly is just a couple of pages long. And it, if it even still exists, because a lot of this stuff is gone with the wind, I'm sure by now.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  And what it postulates is that if this presence is not from this physical universe, or even if possibly even if it is, in order to become part of our reality where it does not exist in any way, it has to gain a deeper, within us, we have to come to a deeper realization of its reality. It has to be as real for us as we are to each other, as this is to it's us, as this is to us, as our world is. If it's not from our world,

• 23:44Speaker 00

  it has to break through into our reality by taking us not just to a level of belief in its presence, but to an assumption about its presence that is as basic as our assumption about the rest of the reality that we know.

• 24:01Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. How do we get our hands on that paper? Because we know on record that von Neumann, I mean, no scientist would dispute this. He entertained this idea that the mind is responsible for wave function collapse.

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's exactly why I think he wrote the paper. Precisely. And he, he explored that idea extensively. And so it would be something he would think of, definitely. And it is, what he's talking about in the paper, I would assume, is an intervention in the process of the collapse of wave function by this other presence that alters the way the wave function collapses when we perceive.

• 24:43Jesse Michels?

  So fascinating.

• 24:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Now, that would also explain.

• 24:50Speaker 00

  And I take this extremely seriously because I think we're talking about something real. You understand, I, I respect this, this, this belief. I think this paper existed, maybe it still does. And it's why when people are all angry about, you know, the government won't disclose and so forth. I say, wait a minute. And they say, well, we're ready. And I say, no, we're not. We don't, because you say we're ready for it, but we don't know what it is. That's right. And therefore, we are not ready. And here's the problem, and I wrote a short story about this, about von Neumann's death, called The Open Doors, about his fear. That this is a door

• 25:34Speaker 00

  which opens in the mind and in the perceptual system and can never be closed. So, once the door is open, once we have accepted them into our reality, we can never get rid of them. We can never tell them, no, it turns out, we don't want you here. Because we don't like you and we don't like what you're doing to us. We can't do that. The door opens only once and only in one direction and forever. Now, if that isn't a motive to hide this, to keep it secret, people scorn the Collins, they say, well, they think it's demons and we're supposed to ignore demons and that's why they do. It might go a little deeper than that.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  It might be that this is a time right now where we have to be very careful about preserving our dominion of our reality. And to think of this in some new ways. What do we do right now? If we are going to let them into our reality, and I think ultimately we have to.

• 26:41Speaker 00

  But on our terms, they cannot come into and take our reality with them. We must not lose dominion. This is what my new book is basically about, and I don't want to, I'm not flacking my book here, but it does, it has come up.

• 26:57Jesse Michels?

  Well, how do, how do we maintain sovereignty while letting them in?

• 27:00Speaker 00

  Because we have to understand their motives and their functionality, their physical functionality, their motives, their understanding of themselves. And we have to, even if it's not necessarily a completely correct conclusion factually, we have to come to a decision about what we want them to be in our reality. And this has got to be a decision that is so deep that it is below the level of ordinary discourse in a deeper level of consciousness, which is the level of consciousness

• 27:41Speaker 00

  which von Neumann was talking about when he was talking about the, the way perception collapses, the wave function. It's at that point that we control this.

• 27:55Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. That's, yeah, I mean, so this brings this interesting question up philosophically of like, we, all three of us probably at this table, like are somewhat more pro the re enchantment of the world or anti kind of materialist reductionism. This idea that, you know, everything's kind of happening randomly and lacks meaning. But once you kind of let that in your life, the idea that, you know, maybe there is a hierarchy of being, maybe humans aren't at the top of it. Maybe things are way more magical than they seem. It is a Pandora's box. And the farther and deeper you get, kind of ontologically, you know, as far as kind of chasing truth, the more evil you have to face and fight as well.

• 28:40Jesse Michels?

  And so how do you ensure that human consciousness raises kind of commensurately with our, you know, unveiling, you know, epistemologically?

• 28:51Speaker 00

  Well, that gets me to a story of something that happened to me in the 1970s, before any of this was in my life. But other people already knew it would be, apparently. I went, but my wife was a very social person and she had lots of friends in New York. And we went to a lot of parties. I was even invited to some of the parties, but told, "Don't be depressing, or I'll throw you out and you'll have to go home alone." In any case, at this party, there was this lady who wanted to sit with me and talk with me. She said, "Mr. Whitley," she's Dr. with an accent, "let's sit down over here." And we sat down and she said, "I want to tell you my story. My story is this.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  I was working, I was doing the magical working," she said, "in a stetle in Poland in the 1930s. And we pushed away the dark side. We had made extraordinary progress in animating a glam. But we absolutely lulled off the dark side, which kept trying to enter our working in different ways. Suddenly, across the river, there burst tanks with men in them, in black uniforms,

• 30:17Speaker 00

  with death's heads on their caps. And we realized that we had forced the dark side to come in on its own, and it had broken down the door. This woman walked from Poland to China over the next six years. And there was still an American presence in China when she arrived. And General Stillwell got her to the United States, where she rejoined a...

• 30:58Speaker 00

  The same community that she was in in Poland, which had moved to the United States. It is terribly important that we understand what the dark side is and not say it's demons and we don't want it, we push it away. We have to understand that it's the wellspring of knowledge and we have to, we have to take care with it. I mean, you, you don't, you do not dance with the tiger, but you respect the tiger's presence in the world.

• 31:32Jesse Michels?

  So how, how do you do that? Cause you've said on record many times, you think you are where you are as far as your worldview because your curiosity trumps your fear.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  It does. I know that for sure.

• 31:43Jesse Michels?

  On the one hand, you have all these myths like, you know, the philosopher's stone or the holy grail, or, you know, you're seeking truth and you find it and you realize it's within or something and the outer is the inner, you know, the, uh, uh, Siddhartha, you know, you have all these stories like that, kind of hero's journey. And then you also have stories like Faust and Prometheus of going for the forbidden truth or for the knowledge and then getting burned. And so how do you toe that line?

• 32:11Speaker 00

  Well, the first thing we have to do is to understand that all of us contain Faust. All of us are Prometheus and we always will be. That's called being human. And the best way to do this is to fully embrace in our deepest hearts, the honest truth about our humanity. It's dark side and it's light side. We all want to be good people, but that's not all we are. Not one of us. That's not our nature. Our nature is to...

• 32:52Speaker 00

  A nature is to be sentimental about the good, but enjoy the bad and the dark. And that is, look, the whole, the whole expression of rock and roll is about that. It is an incredibly important expression, a new kind of expression of the human spirit. So I love it so much. Although I don't have the ears for it anymore. Unfortunately, I have to earplugs when I go to concerts. I hate it.

• 33:18Jesse Michels?

  Who's your, who's your favorite?

• 33:19Speaker 00

  I'm not going to get into that. I don't think, I don't want to go down to the rock and roll road. You'll be here doing that all day and your, your, your, your fans will sing, why didn't you talk about rock and roll for two hours? Come on.

• 33:30Jesse Michels?

  They want to know the real Whitley.

• 33:32Speaker 00

  Well, no, the real Whitley is actually also a huge classical music fan and an opera fan.

• 33:36Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  So I'm a real culture vulture on many different levels.

• 33:39Jesse Michels?

  Amazing.

• 33:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:40Jesse Michels?

  What do you think, speaking of the dark side? You obviously experienced this famous, you know, abduction, if you will, in 1985. Prior to that, you had a very interesting childhood and you hint at possibly having undergone secret experiments. You grew up next to Randolph Air Force Base in San Antonio.

• 33:59Speaker 00

  Well, something happened. I, I know, let's go back to that. Um, in, I mean, let's go back there in time. I'm not saying let's return to it later. I'm sorry. Here's what happened as far as I can put it together. First of all, I was seven years old when this happened. So therefore my memories of it are very confused and very sparse. But I have a very close friend who grew, we grew up together in Texas. And like a lot of Texas families, our family connection probably goes back to before the civil war. Family friendships in the South are quite common. And we're still closest friends. He's my closest friend in the world.

• 34:40Speaker 00

  He is very high up in this world in a completely different area from anything remotely connected.

• 34:47Jesse Michels?

  Is it science or is it?

• 34:49Speaker 00

  No, it's, it's another, another area. It's something to do with government.

• 34:53Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  And, but we are, you know, we, we send every New Year's together. I'll be with him and his wife in a few weeks and a week and a half. He was also recruited. And when I told him the story, he's known all of, he's read all of my books and manuscript, he knows all the story backwards and forwards. And you'd laugh if you saw how very different his place in the world is from mine. And we keep our friendship secret. I'm not gonna, don't bother probe about it because I won't, I won't go there. Because we have to. Not because we want to, because we have to. So, in any case, he remembers, he was nine and I was seven. I don't remember anything about them recruiting me.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  He was recruited, and he was in the living room and the Air Force people came and they knew them. We knew a lot of Air Force, but I'm sure my parents knew them too. And they said to the parents that it was an accelerated learning program with, for children with very, very high IQs. And there would only be three or four children in the program in San Antonio, but implication was, was nationwide. And maybe I'm saying a little more than he said, but that was, this is, I think it's logical extrapolation. And they asked about the program and he remembers them saying that it involved the use of a Skinner box, which I would assume my parents had no idea what that was.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  But his parents did know, and they said, no, this was a box that a person was put in.

• 36:33Jesse Michels?

  So, for the context for the audience, the BF Skinner was a mid-century psychologist that worked on kind of behavioral conditioning. So, you know, how do you honestly often manipulate biological systems to like do certain things over and over? You ring a bell or what, it's kind of like Avelov's dog sort of thing, yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Well, it was repetitive learning is what it was, trapped in a room and a little box with repetitive learning. All I remember is a dark place I couldn't get out of and noise, horrible noise. I don't remember any repetitive learning. That's all I remember. In any case, come October, it started in August of 1952. Come October, I began to get sick constant. I couldn't, I was getting one cold and so my mother takes me to the doctor. It turns out I have no immune system. It's broken. It's broken down. So they take me out of the program. I don't even remember any of this. I was told this.

• 37:38Speaker 00

  I didn't, I wasn't told. My mother never told me anything about the program. But I surmise I was taken out of it because the next thing I do remember very vividly is I end up at Brookdale Hospital. A little seven-year-old, thin little seven-year-old boy's being in an, isolated in a room and given gamma globulin shots. And by these doctors who, you know, these huge needles. I mean, this is the early 50s, right? Needles are like gigantic and these huge needles are coming at me. And they would get so nervous, the needle would go through my arm and the stuff would drip down my chest. It was just awful. And then after a few days, I'm taken home.

• 38:21Speaker 00

  I can't see anybody. I'm fed separately. I'm, I can't, I'm isolated. Until after Christmas, I go back to school finally in January. My mother kept my report card. It said absent due to illness, absent due to illness semester, month after month. All of her life and we found it in her personal effects after she passed. And I said to my sister, I want that report. And she said, sure, I'll give it to you. She destroyed it instead. And I said, why did you do that? I wanted that.

• 39:04Speaker 00

  And she wouldn't say anything about it. She said, Ridley, I just did it.

• 39:09Jesse Michels?

  What does your instinct tell you on what the Skinner box in these experiments were for? Were they to make you a high performer?

• 39:17Speaker 00

  No, they were to crack the cosmic egg. I think.

• 39:23Jesse Michels?

  So kind of liberate the soul from the body and light astral travel?

• 39:27Speaker 00

  No, because the visitors showed up a couple of years later. Or right then, maybe right even then. And I think that that's the, was the purpose to, and I think that.

• 39:38Jesse Michels?

  To make you a receptor.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that this started. I'll tell you what I have surmised and I can't prove this. I think it started at Dachau. I think it started in the camps. And I think that children who were being gassed, sometimes after the gassing, they weren't there anymore. Everyone, you know, the people would all rush into the center of the thing and try to go up because the gas was low and they would die in these pyramids of humanity. Uh, all of them clawing for the ceiling and the children would always be at the bottom crushed

• 40:18Speaker 00

  flat like bugs. And, um, sometimes, you know, the, the Nazis kept extremely careful records. And sometimes I suspect some of those children weren't there. And that noise I remember from those box, that box, I think that's the sound of recorded of the screaming from inside the, they were trying to duplicate the conditions of the gas chamber to see if they could induce this power in another, in, in, in highly intelligent.

• 40:53Jesse Michels?

  What, what's the, so the kids weren't there after?

• 40:56Speaker 00

  I don't know. They disappeared. They went into another reality.

• 41:00Jesse Michels?

  So I know you've worked with Peter Lavenda.

• 41:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:03Jesse Michels?

  He wrote a book called Unholy Alliance.

• 41:05Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:05Jesse Michels?

  It's getting into really speculative territory that I, I don't, I don't personally feel high conviction in, but I'm curious to get your take on, which is that, you know, the Nazis somehow allied themselves with an unholy force of non-human intelligence.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  I don't even want to go down that path. I don't feel a level of conviction about it either. I think the Nazis were just shits.

• 41:26Jesse Michels?

  Well, Lavenda also helped you uncover that some of these experiments might have been post-operation paperclip.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:33Jesse Michels?

  Nazi experiments of some of these Germans coming over.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  Well, a lot of the operation paperclip people apparently lived in my neighborhood.

• 41:40Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 41:40Speaker 00

  And my father was on a big house on the hill and then across the street, a couple houses down is an FBI agent and his wife. And then the street over, there's these scientists. So God knows what that's all about.

• 41:55Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  I have no idea. And then I'm going out to Randolph every Thursday night for.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  For these things and uh and then that ends and you know I sort of go back to living a normal kid life. I have a wonderful childhood.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  It's almost that made me think, is there something about inducing such a high state of human suffering that opens a crack in the same way that an immense amount of love and like focused intention can also open, you know, cracks open something in in our fields that allows, you know, someone who's thinking of you with a lot of love allows you to maybe feel that.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think you might be on the right track. I think that's exactly what it was about.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  And even when I think about idea of angels and demons, a full one force is like exploiting human potential and humanity to like the the most that they can. And then the other forces, there's like a levitate, like a they're trying to levitate, levitate or or elevate the the the just the way we think and the way we act. And maybe the extremes do do something to our reality that then brings in things.

• 43:06Jesse Michels?

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• 43:46Jesse Michels?

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• 44:28Jesse Michels?

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• 45:12Jesse Michels?

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• 45:51Jesse Michels?

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• 46:15Speaker 00

  Well, I started to have weird experiences in my childhood after this. And I had a normal childhood and the weird experiences were very compartmentalized.

• 46:25Speaker 00

  I remember an incident, two incidents. I remember an incident of my father taking me out to the country house. And in the middle of the night, it was cold, so it must have been the winter. And this strange car showed up with these glowing lights that didn't shine, and came rushing down the road and stopped in front of the house very abruptly, like it was not a normal car. And then the next thing I knew, this object that was squared off came tumbling across the sky and went into the back pasture behind the house. And it was back there glowing. And I tried to talk to my dad, and he was just standing there. He wouldn't, he couldn't

• 47:09Speaker 00

  move or didn't move. And then I felt like I needed to go find out what was going on, and I went out toward the back pasture, and that's all I remember. And then the other incident was very weird. Suddenly, one afternoon, my mother and father gathered up my then-baby brother and my sister, and they all went to the country house, leaving me at home with my dog alone at the age of 11. Without, you know, my mother said, "Well, just call us if you need anything." You know, yeah, I needed a lot of things, like a dinner, and, you know, a life, and, you know, not being left in the house alone in a scary night by myself. Yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 00

  So after a while, I, eventually, I mean, I made a dinner, probably peanut butter sandwich or something. And I went to watch the little TV and then went up to bed to find I had an air conditioner. This is, the house was too old to have been centrally air-conditioned. And there was a window air conditioner that looked out on a window, and there was a lower roof behind that, beyond that window. And

• 48:23Speaker 00

  Window above the sash above the air conditioner was sealed and it had been pulled down. And the seal was all hanging loose. And I could see it was obvious that it was just little past dusk. There was someone on the roof. And so I went down and called the country house and my mother answered and she said, well, if there's someone on the roof, telephone the police.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Does you see how strange this all is?

• 48:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, she she didn't come rushing home.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  Right, exactly. Or why did they go in the first place? So.

• 48:59Jesse Michels?

  Your dad must have had some involvement in that.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  I mean, he must have.

• 49:03Jesse Michels?

  So you must have speculated, you know, if he was this high ranking army officer who he probably had clearances, right?

• 49:09Speaker 00

  I don't know. I know he, listen, he would tell you, mother said, well, he found apartments. For, for, uh, or, uh, GI.

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Uh, the wives of GIs who were abroad. And then he, if you asked him what he did during the war, he said, well, I just. Used to pick up cigarette butts at Fort Sam Houston, keep the, keep the place clean. And so, you know, I'd have no idea what he did.

• 49:40Jesse Michels?

  But you're pretty sure that's not true.

• 49:42Speaker 00

  I have a feeling somehow I didn't pick up cigarette butts. Yeah.

• 49:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And, and what was his name?

• 49:48Speaker 00

  His first is Carl Strieber.

• 49:50Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  And, um. It, it so, but getting back to this, uh, the.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  The, um.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  I went downstairs to call the police. But I, you know, there was no nine 11 in those days. I didn't know how to call. So I'm got the phone book. There's a man down in the house upstairs, coming in the house at any moment. And I'm looking in the front of the phone book for the local, the Terrell Hills, the local police. I finally find the number.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  I called.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  And the lady answers, and you know, we only had like three cops. It was a small community, a bedroom suburb of San Antonio, but an independent city. Save on taxes and uh a cop comes. I know the cop. I know all the cops, all the kids do. It's not, you know, it's a very small scale deal. He parks it down at the front of the, it's a half acre front lawn with big, huge hedge, like 60 feet tall, Agustum hedge and a a bower kind of at the, and he comes through and I see him coming out, coming up out of the shadows. And he's got his gun out like this. He's coming to the house with his gun in his hands.

• 51:11Speaker 00

  And it scared the hell out of me. You know, what did he know that I didn't know? And so he comes in the house and I say, he's up on the roof. And he goes running upstairs. Seconds later, he comes running down, yelling, there's no one there. There's no one there. He runs down to his car, gets it in and drives off. That was it. Then what happens to me? I actually don't know. The rest of the night, I don't remember a thing about it. I remember my parents and my sister coming home. The next morning, it was a beautiful morning. I came home at about 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock.

• 51:53Speaker 00

  Before noon, because I had breakfast with them. I'd made my own breakfast. I remember that. That's the story.

• 52:00Jesse Michels?

  And you're still in communication with the NHI, is that right? As of, as of today?

• 52:07Speaker 00

  Yes, it's part of my, it's a, it's my life.

• 52:10Jesse Michels?

  Non-human intelligence.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  I am in communication with something.

• 52:15Jesse Michels?

  Do they manifest themselves as grays for you or still?

• 52:19Speaker 00

  No, not often. Once in a Coon's age, I About a year ago, I'm pleading. I want you to A, come in front of the cameras. I've got two different camera systems in the house. I've been, I've been trying to get pictures of them since the eighties.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Do you have any?

• 52:38Speaker 00

  No, I do. I have very little stuff, a few things. Uh, uh, they got pissed off at me. A couple of years ago and they're big. All these explosions, strange explosions got picked up. Uh, as a result of that and on the cameras and um, I've got that. And they like me to wake up at three o'clock in the morning to. Mune, I guess.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 00

  And uh.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Is it at a specific time?

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Well, it's an hour accord. If it's, if I'm right about what it is, there's a. An ancient yogic tradition of Brahman Mahartha time, the time you, you're looking at nodding your head.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Because in Islam, it's also you, there's like a, in a lot of religions, that time is, is, is like very sacred. You do commune with God, like the, the highest, the, the highest, um. Yeah, yeah. In Islam, the prayer that you do around that time is the one where, where you're supposedly closest to God. And I think it has something to do with actually like, uh, having gone to Joe Dispenza retreat. He, there was a whole thing around like a melatonin being a, there's something mystical about. That we still don't understand about how melatonin makes the, uh, makes the brand, makes the brain act when we're asleep. And that's why some of his meditation, you'd make you wake up during that time.

• 54:02Speaker 00

  Well, I wake up during that time every night. Every, every single night. And in fact, for years after my wife passed away, back in the nineties.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Well, what is Brahman, what is this between three and four?

• 54:13Speaker 00

  Well, it's, you know, the interesting thing was that it is supposed to be an hour and a half or an hour and thirty minutes before dawn. And so that's why I, you know, at first, they would wake me up physically. They would blow in my face. I would get a little kiss. Um, I wrote a poem. I have a book of poems out called The Hidden Garden, which has been read by, I think, 12 people and another 14 people listened to the audiobook. But, you know, poetry is not-

• 54:44Jesse Michels?

  Go out and check out Whitley's poetry. Come on.

• 54:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, do it, folks. Do check out. It's a nice one. Anyway, I wrote a poem about this experience and, and, uh, and it was not an unpleasant experience. You know, you get to the point where you have to learn something about sleep, healthy sleep, or you're gonna go crazy getting waked up at that hour every night. And, you know, they do not, they do not stop. Uh, so after she passes, back in the 90s, there was a period of time where they're waking me up at that hour. Then we lost the cabin. We leave the

• 55:23Speaker 00

  cabin. Uh, and that doesn't happen. Then she gets ill and she passes on. And a few days after she passes on, it starts again. They start waking me up at 3 o'clock around that time. And it becomes a very big part of my life. Very important because I can feel the communing going on. I can feel it really intensely. And part of it is involved, seems to be involved with my wife and other dead people and the dead and the aliens, it kind of all-

• 56:00Jesse Michels?

  Do you think, you know, we talk about the communion of the saints in Christianity. Do you think that it's somewhat similar where, where you're communing with-

• 56:09Speaker 00

  It feels incredibly sacred. It's something I would not, I, every once in a while, I, I don't do it because what happened at first, for the first five years from 1925 until- 2020, they woke me up religiously every night. Then they began to not necessarily wake me up every night. But I was expected to wake myself up. And I found that out the hard way. As I decided, well, they're not waking me up so I can sleep all night. That wasn't the idea.

• 56:40Jesse Michels?

  Do you get any messages from them?

• 56:42Speaker 00

  Oh, God, I've written. All my books since 2015 have been written based on this.

• 56:49Jesse Michels?

  What are some, what are some big recurring themes as far as messages you're supposed to get out to humanity? From them?

• 57:02Speaker 00

  Well, if you look across the books, what you see are two things. One is we are more than physical creatures. And two is we have value, more value than we ourselves recognize. We are very, very valuable and extraordinary beings. We're not the lesser. We are our own, in our own way, we are another masterpiece of the universe. And you can see that, that's the arc. If there's any arc in that, in those books, that's the arc. And it comes up very strongly in the new book, which is basically about empowerment.

• 57:44Jesse Michels?

  Do you, because I've read your book on Jesus, actually.

• 57:48Speaker 00

  You did?

• 57:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:49Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you.

• 57:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, of course. I thought it was great. And it definitely has like Gnostic underpinnings around your view of Jesus, that he ascended to, you know, in traditional Christianity, he, he, he was a son of God. He was also Godlike. But I think you view him as possibly one of many. And so going to your point about humans, generically speaking, being more special or more Godlike, is that, would, would that be your sort of worldview that we're?

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Capable of coming to deity. That because we are, we're not like the angels and the, perhaps the demons. We don't have to be anything. We can take a journey. We have that freedom to take a journey and the grays do not have that freedom. They know too much to have that kind of freedom, but we, they see too far ahead in time and too far back in time too clearly to really have free will. They don't have free will.

• 58:55Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting. So you're like, if they're, because I remember one, one part of communion, it's like this kind of joke, but it's twisted and it's so visceral and, and the, the, the being says, uh, soon, my dear, you'll, you'll be one of us or something.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  Just like, uh, no, that's.

• 59:11Jesse Michels?

  Just like us.

• 59:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:12Jesse Michels?

  And so it's like they're, they're almost, they've moved so far down this path that they've hit this sort of cul-de-sac. And so they know too much and they're trying to come back to warn us, to inflect in some sort of more godly way or something.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  And to also enjoy communing with us because when they are in communion with you, they are experiencing time the same way you do. Everything is new.

• 59:36Jesse Michels?

  How do you discern between good and bad in that scenario where if you do think that this is some sort of parallel or alternate timeline, what if it's bad entities and they're trying to ensure that their own sustenance and through trickery and deception?

• 59:53Speaker 00

  You have to, you have to be your own best, best counsel, your own wisest counsel. You have to live a good life. Uh, kindness and not lying are two very important things. Of course, we all lie and we're all unkind and everyone sees, says, usually say that and they immediately go to all the things they did, all the unkind things they did and all the lies they've told and so do I, the same thing. But we have these choices. If human beings can make choices that they can't make, it's too late for the grays. They know too much. They can't make choices.

• 1:00:31Jesse Michels?

  Do you think they do exist on some sort of timeline where something happened? Like the classic speculation about the grays would be like they are the victims of some sort of nuclear holocaust or cataclysm, cataclysm. They've lost the melanin in their skin because the atmosphere is sort of, you know, blocking the sun, you know, due to, due to nuclear debris or whatever. Do, do you believe that or, or any sort of specific version of, of who they are, where they're coming from?

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  Well, I know now that we have bodies here, that we have, biologists have studied here. And that those studies are ended. I don't know if they, I hope they still have the bodies because, you know, they, they, those studies were never released and they're done in secret and there's probably a lot of biology still to be done on those bodies if they would ever be brought out into the public space in science, which would be wonderful. But, so we have bodies. But, but I'll tell you a few things about these bodies. One is, they are a mix of biology and

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

  not exactly machinery. That's putting it too far, but they, they, um.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Like biological replicas of some sorts?

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  They're like, uh, something somebody built. Uh, some, somebody with a certain amount of skill in, in, in genetics built these, but not, not unlimited skill because they're not, uh, all that, you know, there's things about them that don't work very well.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I also thought that like, if you're gonna, if you're gonna engineer a being that kind of looks like, like it's very frail, small, like.

• 1:02:23Speaker 00

  Well, you, you, you, you get back to the hybrids which are, they are, they are engineered and they are very fluently telepathic, but they are also unvoiced and they're extremely autistic. And if you go online and Spotify or Apple Podcasts or somewhere, you can find a, a podcast called The Telepathy Tapes.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Thinking over by storm right now.

• 1:02:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's amazing. I just interviewed Kai and Dr. Powell, actually.

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  Oh, you did? I'm gonna interview Kai in, uh, in a few, a few days, actually.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  I, I discovered this and the second I discovered it, I realized how important it was. I'm glad it's come up. But these people are unvoiced and autistic.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:12Speaker 00

  Now, I have friends.

• 1:03:15Speaker 00

  Who are telepathic and are not unvoiced. And I think there may be some people in working with the, in the IC and probably other intelligence communities around the world who are telepathic and not unvoiced.

• 1:03:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:33Speaker 00

  But in any case, uh, one of the, my friends who's telepathic recently had a contact with an unvoiced person who was shocked because she, she, he wasn't used to having a, you know, another telepath around and he, and she had to really calm him down. They were, but, uh, and said, don't worry about it. I'm, I'm not going to do anything. I'm just here, you know, I can't help it either. So, um, but I, Kai is a lovely person.

• 1:04:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. She's awesome.

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Jesse Michels?

  And I think really in this for the right reasons and, uh, for context for the audience, the number four podcast in the country right now, which is absolutely wild. Kai Dickens is this amazing filmmaker. She was rejected by all these, you know, production houses as far as making this into a, you know, larger documentary and just kind of DIY style, recorded this. It's, she's found all these non-verbal autistic children who were formerly being studied by this Harvard neuroscientist, a woman named Dr. Diane Powell. And it's really remarkable. You have these kids being put in, you know, their parents are put in one room, kid is put in the other room. The parent sees a random image generated on iPad or a TV or whatever out of, you know,

• 1:04:48Jesse Michels?

  a thousand or 10,000 images and the kid guesses what their parent is looking at with almost a hundred percent accuracy, 95% plus accuracy. And so it's, it moves because all of these studies in the parapsychology world of mind over matter or whatever have traditionally been super weak. You need extremely large amounts of data and cohorts and you end up in these endless arguments because people are too lazy to actually look at the data.

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:05:13Jesse Michels?

  And in this case, you have conclusive data and all these kids are spiritually. While physically, they're, you know, non-verbal, they're seen as totally maladjusted, you know, whatever. Spiritually, they seem far more evolved than all of us. They meet up on the hill together, and they hang out, and they talk about God constantly, and the Kingdom of Heaven, and they seem to have faith in some sort of higher world that we all just

• 1:05:39Speaker 00

  They do.

• 1:05:40Jesse Michels?

  Have limited access to.

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  And kindness and truth-telling are essential in that

• 1:05:46Jesse Michels?

  And they're savants. They know every, they know languages better than the Spanish teacher without having learned it. It's absolutely amazing. Sorry.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, they are. And it's, you know, it gets me to the hybrids who are, I don't know, I know a few of them, and I

• 1:06:02Jesse Michels?

  Are there some that are functional? Are there aliens walking among them?

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

  Well, okay, here's the functionality issue. The ones I know are not voiced, which immediately makes them essentially profoundly crippled in this society.

• 1:06:19Jesse Michels?

  Oh, so they're non-verbal?

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  That's what I'm saying. They're not, they're non-voiced. They can't talk.

• 1:06:23Jesse Michels?

  And they often have to use techniques, this one called RPM, to type

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:06:28Jesse Michels?

  Out what they feel.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  But they, you know, they live in a non, they don't do that. I mean, they're not, they're not, they're not interfacing with the world around them, which is a huge problem. I've talked to Kai about it. We're gonna get together and try to figure out, can we help them? Because they're very, they're very autistic, and they are fluently telepathic. And, you know, I'm, I'm telepathic, but passive telepathic, in other sense, in the sense that if I'm around a telepath, I can have telepathy with them very easily. And I will pick them, if I'm near someone who's telepathic, I'll pick it up right away.

• 1:07:05Jesse Michels?

  Should we try to do like, you think about a color?

• 1:07:08Speaker 00

  Oh, no, I can't, I can't project it. In other words, I can't read your mind in your mind. But if someone who is telepathic was in the room, we could converse. That's, that's, that, that, so I was walking in the grocery store the other day, that I'm, live fairly near some of them, I think. I don't know where they live exactly, but I do see them around. And of course, I pick it up immediately. This woman is walking in, in front of me, and I hit, I'm hit by, realize, oh shit, shit, it's one of them. And she goes, ah! And she runs, looks around, she's got a skateboard, and she starts to come after me with the skateboard. And I think, holy shit, what if I'm gonna be beaten to death by one of the hybrids?

• 1:07:51Speaker 00

  She's scared of me. And so she can't, she wants to leave the store. She wants to run out of the store, but I'm in the doorway. So she turns around and runs off into the store and I think, just calm down, Witty. Let her go. I'm not gonna follow her anything. And so I just go and concentrate on what I'm looking for. I do not put my mind on her in any way. I get my stuff and I go out. And there's often somebody waiting, another one will waiting, you know, they have these old cars. They're not have, they don't have much money. And so the other one that's waiting outside is there. And I come out and go into my car and he looks at me and he goes like that.

• 1:08:32Speaker 00

  And I know I'm good. I've passed. They're not gonna be pissed off. But that's reality. It's a reality and I'm sorry. It's real. It's real. The telepathy is very real.

• 1:08:44Jesse Michels?

  Do you think any of the hybrids are functional human beings that are walking around?

• 1:08:49Speaker 00

  Not that I have met. And, and they also all smoke all the time. And why do they do that? Well, I, I went to this into this very extensively. I spoke to a psychiatrist who specializes in treating schizophrenics. And he really solved it for me. He said schizophrenics smoke not to suppress the voices in their heads, but to smooth out the, the nicotine smooths out the, the emotions. It, it calms you. And the hybrids smoke all the time.

• 1:09:29Speaker 00

  They never stop, all the time. And, you know, in this society, you know, in Santa Monica, it practically has a no smoking sign on the city, on the, and the boundaries of the city. I mean, this is not a place where you smoke very comfortably, anywhere. And so, you know, they're very isolated and they're very unhappy and they're not, they're poor. And I'm hoping, and this seems to me to be completely impossible. I'm hoping that we will be able to reach out to them in some way and bring them into society. Because we've got wonderful people.

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  Human, regular people, caring, good people who can help them.

• 1:10:09Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever read the sci-fi novel Childhood's End?

• 1:10:13Speaker 00

  I certainly have.

• 1:10:15Jesse Michels?

  So, in that book, as you know, there are the overlords, these sort of cosmic hosts, if you will, that are attempting to make contact with mankind.

• 1:10:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:10:24Jesse Michels?

  They do it through this cadre of telepathic children.

• 1:10:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:10:29Jesse Michels?

  And these telepathic children are sort of the Paul Revere's, if you will, of humanity, that are starting, you know, this, this communications channel to this higher, higher kind of Borg-like being. What do you think of that? Do you think that's, that, that's a case of fiction becoming reality here?

• 1:10:44Speaker 00

  He, he was obviously a very extraordinary man.

• 1:10:48Jesse Michels?

  He was, Arthur C. Clarke was fascinating.

• 1:10:50Speaker 00

  Fascinating man.

• 1:10:51Jesse Michels?

  He was probably MI6.

• 1:10:53Speaker 00

  Oh, probably, yeah.

• 1:10:55Jesse Michels?

  He lived in Sri Lanka. He, he wrote a book about a portal in Sri Lanka on the top of a mountain, and now I'm, you'd have to speculate that he actually thought that there was one or something.

• 1:11:03Speaker 00

  Well, of course he did. I'm sure he did.

• 1:11:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:05Speaker 00

  I had the strangest experience with him. Um, I had a friend, uh, Mike Smith, when I was living in London, he was also an American. He was a very good artist. And in those days, the English were easily fooled by fake credentials. So he made some fake credentials for a paper called The Chicago Citizen, which didn't even exist. And we used to use these credentials to get into places we didn't belong, like Ascot Opening Day and the premiere of, of, uh, which one is 2001?

• 1:11:40Jesse Michels?

  Space Odyssey, yeah.

• 1:11:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. Arthur C. Clarke's movie, The Earth, okay.

• 1:11:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Arthur C. Clarke, Stanley Kubrick, based on actually a novel by Arthur C. Clarke called The Sentinel.

• 1:11:50Speaker 00

  Right. So Arthur C. Clarke is there. I end up sitting beside Arthur C. Clarke in, in the movie.

• 1:11:56Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  I'm telling you the truth.

• 1:11:58Jesse Michels?

  That's crazy.

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  And so, you know, I'm very quiet, of course, because I don't want to, I don't want to get thrown out. And I don't think it'd be too long before another American's going to understand, realize that I'm there based on complete bullshit. And so, I'm sitting there.

• 1:12:13Jesse Michels?

  Or you were meant to be there.

• 1:12:14Speaker 00

  Maybe. And I asked afterwards, he turns to me and he introduces himself, as if he didn't know who he was. And I tell him my name and he said, well, why are you here? And he said, I said, well, I'm from The Chicago Citizen. The Chicago Citizen, he says. I said, yeah, it's a new paper.

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  Oh, he says, well, what do you think? Are you going to write a review? I said, yes, I'm going to write a review. And I'm in the review, I'm going to say that you are a genius. And he says, well, you better say Stanley's a genius too.

• 1:12:46Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:12:47Speaker 00

  So that was my contact with Ursula.

• 1:12:49Jesse Michels?

  True, both of those guys were truly geniuses.

• 1:12:51Speaker 00

  They were great geniuses and God, I have a feeling there's not too many places in the universe to create geniuses that are scot-free in the world like we are.

• 1:13:03Jesse Michels?

  In moments like this, I just often remember a specific interview that Dr. John Mack did with one of the one of the kids from the aerial school. And he asks her why she thought the visitors were there. And she goes, in space, there is no love, but down here there is. And I remember so viscerally watching that for the first time and that resonating on such a deep soul level that and of course, you can make the case that it's wishful thinking. Of course, I want to feel special as a human and I want to feel like we have something here that doesn't exist elsewhere in the universe. But there is something so profound that anybody that has experienced like a

• 1:13:45Jesse Michels?

  love and and a sense of, yeah, if anyone that that just experienced love, you can really feel the transcendence of that. I mean, the most popular film for the past decade was about like transcendence of love, Interstellar. So like the whole film was about was about that.

• 1:14:03Speaker 00

  It was about that, yeah.

• 1:14:05Jesse Michels?

  So and you could see how like it's almost like it right now is the 10th, it's the 10th year anniversary and the people are talking back about the film because people are watching for the first time. Big fans are watching it again and and it and the conversions of even that I was talking just about a couple of days ago. It feels so every just everything feels like it's making sense for the moment that we're living right now. Unlike in the way people are in the drones popping up. On people thinking more about space with SpaceX landing, you know, a tower from coming from space back onto onto earth. I really do think that we have something so profound here that we have to preserve, that we have to gather around to like, as you said, really understand what is it that makes us who we are?

• 1:14:50Jesse Michels?

  What it makes it, what is it that makes this makes them who they are? And, uh, and so that they are here based on our terms. We know that we're not, they're not going to be the overlords that we have to like.

• 1:15:01Speaker 00

  That's exactly what we have to.

• 1:15:02Jesse Michels?

  Submit our entire sovereignty to just because they're higher form of intelligence.

• 1:15:05Speaker 00

  Twenty twenty five is about figuring out how to live together. And that does not mean we are going to have to accept overlords. If that's all we can manage, they don't want to be here.

• 1:15:19Jesse Michels?

  Maybe our current reality is more governed by entities than we realize. Like, where do thoughts even come from? And so I, I do, I think there's kind of this perspective of like, you know, one of my favorite quotes is this Eden Phil Potts. The universe is full of magical things waiting patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.

• 1:15:38Speaker 00

  Wow, that's a wonderful quote.

• 1:15:40Jesse Michels?

  It's a wonderful quote. And there's maybe some strata of beings that are waiting for us to ascend in to their level to truly, you know, communicate at parity with them. And then there may be some other beings that if you're not aware of them, probably have more insidious control of your life right now. Yeah. And so like it, it brings up all these sort of kind of epistemic ontological questions. When you're daydreaming, why are you thinking what you're thinking? You're not consciously constructing those thoughts. They're sort of entering your mind as if it's this antenna receptacle. And so then, then you have to ask what's on the, you know, sending end of that and, you know. Well, on that point, I feel like we jumped straight into the communication with Danachai, but we're not.

• 1:16:24Jesse Michels?

  We, we missed, we didn't talk about the implant. And the fact that there's something in your body that you believe is an implant, I feel like.

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  Right here.

• 1:16:33Jesse Michels?

  If you, yeah. Can we see it?

• 1:16:35Speaker 00

  You can touch it. You can't, I don't think you touch it if you want to.

• 1:16:38Jesse Michels?

  I feel like two years.

• 1:16:39Speaker 00

  I can give you a CT scan of it if you want.

• 1:16:42Jesse Michels?

  Was it weird if I touch it or is it?

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  No, it's fine. Doesn't matter. It might be a little hot because it's been working right here.

• 1:16:49Jesse Michels?

  Uh, two, three years ago, if you had, if you had told someone.

• 1:16:52Speaker 00

  Go ahead and touch it. Don't be scared. Here, here.

• 1:16:58Speaker 00

  It's right under my finger now.

• 1:17:00Jesse Michels?

  Oh my god.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Jesse Michels?

  That is, well, can you touch it?

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll come touch you, but I want to finish this point because I feel like that's also-

• 1:17:07Jesse Michels?

  Normal tissue.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:09Speaker 00

  No, it's not.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  No, I mean, there's the CT scan, a video of, there's a video of the surgeon trying to remove it, and the thing fucking moving at its own, like, it's evading the surgeon.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  It's moving down into my earlobe, yeah.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  And it just like goes down, and I remember watching that.

• 1:17:24Speaker 03

  I guess it went under, but that's the hard part. It disappeared again.

• 1:17:30Speaker 03

  It's actually moving now? It went under, uh... It's on the run.

• 1:17:36Speaker 03

  I'm trying to guess, because I could see it just right as day, and now it's, uh, I don't see it.

• 1:17:41Jesse Michels?

  Am I gonna have weird effects now that I-

• 1:17:43Speaker 00

  No, not at all. Listen, it's been in this, you know, it's part of this conversation. Uh, you know, it's been, it, it, ears gotten hot and cold, hot and cold, all through the conversation of the implants.

• 1:17:53Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:17:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's involved.

• 1:17:55Jesse Michels?

  So you think it's how you communicate with the beings?

• 1:17:57Speaker 00

  No, no, it's, it's, I work with it, in other words, I can interrogate the implant while I'm talking.

• 1:18:02Jesse Michels?

  But you've had, it was humans gave you the implant.

• 1:18:06Speaker 00

  Two humans, yeah.

• 1:18:07Jesse Michels?

  And suits and, and, like, Men in Black style?

• 1:18:09Speaker 00

  We, this is something we haven't touched on yet, is the human level of this. And I could tell you a lot about the implant and a, um, uh, and, and what it does, because I've learned about this from, I was taught this by a couple of people who came into the house, but let me just back up to the time it was put in. Somewhere in one of my books, it says it was 1992 it was put in, that's a copy editing era, it was May of 1989. And I was in bed, in the cabin, and Anne was asleep. It's about 11 o'clock at night, I was still reading and just about to go to sleep.

• 1:18:54Speaker 00

  The cabin is, looks out on the swimming pool in the back. I, I had so much money then. I, I really wish I hadn't been destroyed.

• 1:19:04Jesse Michels?

  What happened?

• 1:19:05Speaker 00

  Uh, did you see Beyond, the MGM thing, the part of, that is, episode three, it goes into South Park, slam pooning me and all the

• 1:19:16Jesse Michels?

  Oh, they know, they know.

• 1:19:17Speaker 00

  I took, and eventually people, people will buy a book from somebody who's controversial, but they're not gonna, it's easier now, but in those days when you had to go into a bookstore to buy a book, you're not gonna buy a book by somebody who's laughing stock and being laughed at. And it torpedoed my career, wiped me out, and I went on this long, agonizing decline. It ended with the loss of the cabin and eventual bankruptcy, and it was just a disaster. So, I'm sort of, sort of knocking along right now. I don't have much money, but, you know, I don't need much money and I'm, I, I can't, I don't trust the publishing industry not to

• 1:20:00Speaker 00

  get into bed with the Defense Department, and I'm well aware of the fact that there are people in the Defense Department who do not like me and do not want my work out there.

• 1:20:10Jesse Michels?

  Why don't they like you?

• 1:20:12Speaker 00

  Ask them. Ask the Collins Elite why they're scared of women.

• 1:20:15Jesse Michels?

  They really don't like you, the Collins Elites.

• 1:20:17Speaker 00

  They do not. They think I'm in league with demons because they are simple people who are way behind the, they're behind the eight ball and behind the times.

• 1:20:26Jesse Michels?

  I want to get back to your implant, but really quick with the Collins Elite, this is this evangelical Christian group that like is cited by Lou Elizondo and other kind of disclosure advocates as being anti-disclosure because they think this is all demonic, and so it can't be scientifically studied, we shouldn't even look at it. And a lot of them were actually looking at the phenomenon, at, I think, as a part of this program called Stack Five at Wright Airfield.

• 1:20:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:20:52Jesse Michels?

  And then they came out of, of that study with the conclusion, this is written about by Nick Redfern in his book Final Events, that this is all demonic, we shouldn't look at it, we should look away. But I, I, I've never heard the Collins Elite well characterized by anybody, like who are they, are they, they're still operational and like what do they, what do they want to do?

• 1:21:13Speaker 00

  I, well,

• 1:21:14Jesse Michels?

  They were early in the CIA, right? They were sort of?

• 1:21:16Speaker 00

  No, it was Air Force people, as far as I know, yeah.

• 1:21:18Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:21:19Speaker 00

  And, um, I, I don't want to go down that path because If you look at beyond in episode three and you see what happened to me. And what it did to my life and it's got something to do with them. I'm convinced. And because they they there's a lot of those intelligence community does way more social engineering in this country than you can than it should or should even be legally allowed to do. The CIA stays out of that because it's not allowed to propagandize the American people, but I think there's lots of workarounds with other alphabet agencies.

• 1:21:57Jesse Michels?

  Air Force Office, Special Investigations and yeah.

• 1:22:01Speaker 00

  And the connection between some important aspects of the of the old media. And those organizations is very profound.

• 1:22:11Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 1:22:12Speaker 00

  Very dangerous.

• 1:22:13Jesse Michels?

  So it's 1989.

• 1:22:14Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:22:15Jesse Michels?

  The implant.

• 1:22:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, let's get back to the fun stuff. I don't like to talk about that other stuff because there's not a lot I can do about it. And I have been beaten to death by them, so.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  And maybe I'll just finish the point when you were touching the implant. Now people can accept that story given, you know, Lou's Lou Elizondo's testimony and him even bringing it on on News Nation and talking about it. But I feel like, yeah, probably the time you were telling people they have an implant, people probably thought you were

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  nuts because like.

• 1:22:45Speaker 00

  Well, not really, because actually.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  You had a video, yeah.

• 1:22:48Speaker 00

  Well, no.

• 1:22:50Jesse Michels?

  Anybody can, if they were in this room, it'd feel your ear. I don't know what that is, man. I mean, that is like not.

• 1:22:58Speaker 00

  You can look at the video and it's in a number of documentaries and somewhere on my website, too. My website's too big and I can't honestly say where very easily. But you see the doctor try to remove it. You see, says, my wife sees it. She's right there.

• 1:23:18Speaker 00

  She says it's a white disc.

• 1:23:21Speaker 03

  It's like a little tiny white disc.

• 1:23:27Speaker 00

  And the doctor, doctor, he was such a cute, sweet guy.

• 1:23:36Speaker 00

  But he didn't know anything about any of the implants. And I, Anne had said to me from the beginning, you're not getting it removed, you're not getting it removed. Then it's 1994 or '06, I believe it was, and we lost the cabin. We're living in a little condo in San Antonio, and we meet this guy. And we talk, and, you know, he's interested in community and stuff. And I decide I'm gonna see if I can get around Anne and see, because I'm very curious about it. I'd love to see this implant. It's not really working at that time. It's not essential to me at all. So I say to him, "By the way, I've got this little cyst," and she bristles on my ear.

• 1:24:19Speaker 00

  "Would you feel that?" He feels it. He says, "Yeah, it's just a little cyst. You want me to pull it off? Pop it off?" I said, "Yeah, I would." He said, "Sure, come over to my office tomorrow morning, Saturday morning at 10:00, and I'll do it." At home, Anne says, "You know, I'm sick and tired. You, this is your chance. We're gonna have a big fight unless you promise me absolutely on your honor, never to try again." I say, "Okay." I figure, I've got her. I'm gonna get the implant out, take it to LA, and we're gonna study it with Roger Lear, and, you know, we're finally figure out what this thing is. So we go into the doctor's office, and he's got his nurse there,

• 1:25:01Speaker 00

  and he opens up the slit, and he, Anne's there, and Anne's videotaping it. And she says, "It's a white disc." And the doctor touches it with a scalpel or something, a probe of some kind, and it goes down into my ear lobe. At that point, and if you look carefully at the video, you can see it gets sort of still. And it's real, he's realizing, he said later, that, "I realized I was trying to take out an alien implant." And he says, "Well, I'd have to take your whole ear off. I'm blown out." It was, then two days pass, and the ear burns like hell. I

• 1:25:46Speaker 00

  think my ear's caught on fire, and it goes up back under the skin to this place.

• 1:25:51Jesse Michels?

  Do you have any sense of what it's made out of?

• 1:25:56Speaker 00

  They got a sliver at the doctor's office. He sent it to the lab in, under ordinary circumstances. I receive a telephone call from Dr. William Mallow, the head of materials science at Southwest Research in San Antonio, which was founded by a family friend.

• 1:26:22Jesse Michels?

  Is that, that's Texas A&M or no?

• 1:26:24Speaker 00

  That's. No, it's not A&M. No, this is different. This is a private foundation founded by Tom Slick, San Antonio man.

• 1:26:33Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:26:34Speaker 00

  In, back in the 50s and Bill is his head of materials science and has been since the beginning of the foundation at that point. And somehow or another, it went to a lab, to a regular, ordinary lab, the doctor just sent it to a lab, but I don't get, he doesn't get a report from the lab. I get a call from Bill Mallow about it. So it's gone from the lab to Southwest Research, which is 50%, 54 or 45% funded by the CIA. Bill says, I've got your piece of, your sliver of the implant. And he says,

• 1:27:16Speaker 00

  it is a metal metallic base with feebrile motion, moving cilia coming off of it. And then the doctor calls me all excited because it's the lab tech has seen it and told him the same thing. And I guess the lab tech sent it to Southwest for that reason, because it was so unusual.

• 1:27:43Jesse Michels?

  A lot of these things are reported as moving under their own metabolism or containing some sort of cilia.

• 1:27:49Speaker 00

  I studied a lot of them with Bill. I mean, Bill and I became close friends and we studied lots of the ones that Roger Lear was producing from here in LA, from the surgeries he did. And we found one that was. Remarkable, but it was in C2 in the person's neck. It was emitting a radio signal and I'll get to the radio signal in this in a minute.

• 1:28:11Jesse Michels?

  You think that, so yours?

• 1:28:12Speaker 00

  It doesn't, I can tell you about it.

• 1:28:14Jesse Michels?

  Can you measure the radio signal? Cause I just interviewed Bob McGuire. His girlfriend has an implant and he put like an RF detector over her head and can like measure the frequency coming out. And so do you, do you, do you ever do things like that?

• 1:28:29Speaker 00

  Okay, let's not forget what I was just gonna say.

• 1:28:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:33Speaker 00

  Uh, but yeah, here's what happened. At one point, it used to in the old days, when it turned on, my ear would turn bright red. It was very noticeable, I'm gonna hear a noise in my head. It was trying to, to reach, to communicate with me and failing and that's why it was like that, but I didn't know that at the time. So I'm in Bill's office. We're talking about it and suddenly he says, your ear is turning bright red. I said, I hear it, Bill, it's on. He said, let's go. We run across the campus to a signals acquisition lab. We get in the lab. I sit on a stool in the middle and they're got all this stuff going on.

• 1:29:13Speaker 00

  And after about 10 minutes, it's cold now and it turns off. And the lab guys say, we've got a signal. But we can't tell you anything about it because the lab's classified. So I think, shit. I, you know, I say to Bill, I want to know the signal. He said, well, we'll send you some information. Of course, they never do. Um, then the piece of the implant disappears from his office or is sent off to some other lab. I mean, I don't, they were, they were about 60%. They, they were not totally reliable. Let me put it that way for me. They were not telling me everything by any means.

• 1:29:58Speaker 00

  20 must plus years pass. I'm doing a book signing in San Antonio. All of a sudden, two guys walk up. They say, we want you to know, Whitley. I, one of them says, I was one of the technicians who was, who acquired the signal. And it is the strangest signal we've ever acquired and it's still understudy.

• 1:30:21Speaker 00

  And they turn around and walk out gone. I never see them again. I have tried every kind of RF meter there is to get that pick up that signal. I've had Pam operators and all kinds of people try to we can't pick up a signal.

• 1:30:35Jesse Michels?

  You know what you should do? Use a quantum infometer.

• 1:30:39Speaker 00

  I wonder if that's what they used at that lab. I don't know what they have in a classified signals acquisition lab.

• 1:30:45Jesse Michels?

  Well, the reason I say that is, yeah, maybe I don't know if I'm allowed to say this.

• 1:30:52Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. We should change the subject. So in 1989, in 1989,

• 1:31:00Jesse Michels?

  this implant is is put in your ear.

• 1:31:02Speaker 00

  Okay, here's what happens. I'm lying in bed. I'm reading. The windows are open. It's a May night. It's a very pleasant night. So there's no air issues and all the windows are open. And just gone to sleep. And suddenly I hear the crunching of gravel in the driveway. Okay, I do not see any lights. There's a big gate. The place is pretty secure. It's a shale driveway. So crunching grab tie. That means tires and nothing else. I think, oh, my God, I have a shotgun under the bed and a pistol in the side table. I'm from Texas and I'm gonna be gunned up at all times. I mean, just face it. So I start to go for

• 1:31:47Speaker 00

  the I have a bank of switches on the on the bedside that I can turn them all on at once and completely flood the whole area with floodlights. They're still on the cabin, by the way, that's all still air. Although I don't own the cabin. It's owned by a wonderful family. Thank God. And they let me come up. So and bring friends occasionally. Anyway, I go for the switches. But as I'm turning, I see a woman standing at near the foot of the bed. She's already in the room and a man beside her and I hear a voice in the backyard, male voice go condition red.

• 1:32:21Speaker 00

  And then they run forward and instead of going for the lights, I don't care about the lights anymore, I'm going for the shotgun. The next thing I know, I'm lying on my right side in the bed. I cannot see, I cannot move, and powerful hand is pushing my head down into the pillow in kind of wave motion. And the woman's voice is speaking very gently and softly, like, you know, it's okay, it's okay, just relax and et cetera and so forth. The moment after this happens, the pressure is off, I start to turn, get out of the bed.

• 1:33:03Speaker 00

  As I do that, there's a big flash of light crashing in the woods. And I end up sitting on the bedside, there's nobody in the room anymore. The LEDs on the alarm system are still armed, red. So I grab the pistol, I go around the whole house, even up in the attic, in the basement, everywhere, looking for a point of entry and there isn't. I end up sitting on the bedside, what the shit? And I knew all about lucid dreams and I could hardly believe that was a lucid dream, it was too lucid. So, finally, I sort of lie in bed all night, kind of like this, you know, waiting for

• 1:33:48Speaker 00

  the dawn. And I tell Ann the story and I said, I just don't know what to make of it because there's no evidence whatsoever of this. Then I go out to get the paper, which entails going out, opening the door into the garage, turning off the alarm system, which is still on, and getting in the car, opening the garage door and driving down about a mile away to get the paper. I love the paper, I still, I still read actual physical papers in fact, The Times and New York Times and um. When I open the door into the garage, the garage door is wide open. But it's alarmed, it's part of the system. And the switch is obviously completely tripped.

• 1:34:32Speaker 00

  And the LEDs are right there, bright red. And so I disarm it and I keep going, I get into the car. And I'm starting to go down anyway to get them sort of on semi-automatic pilot. I'm just getting out of bed and I haven't slept. The car is full of static, like, you know, shocking my hands when I try to touch the steering wheel. I think, holy God, the car is going to blow up. I jump out of the car. And I go in, I said, Anne, there's something's going on. It was real. They, someone came into the house and they didn't trip the alarm system. And she says, well, that I explained about the garage. She said, well, call the guy, I forgot his name, the alarm guy. So I call him, he comes over.

• 1:35:17Speaker 00

  And he says, there was a very strong magnetic field there. And it's not my equipment. All I can do is, the field was still there. He could, he measured, I saw him measuring with a gas meter. Gas meter would go, all, just the needle would disappear. He said, all I can do is replace my switches, which he did. And we tried to get some information off of the alarm system's records, but they were all garbled. So, a couple of days later, it hurts, starts to hurt, and I realize I have this implant. Anne's fascinated, she says, listen, let's see what it's there for. I said, I want to get it taken out, I'm going out to LA to Roger. She says, forget it.

• 1:36:01Speaker 00

  You're not getting it taken out. I want to find out what it is, what it does. I said, well, it's tracking me. She says, nobody cares that you go down to the, get the newspaper. Nobody cares about anything you do. You're uninteresting. I said, well, yeah, it's true. I mean, I don't, I mean, I'm not a criminal or anything, so I leave it in. And it turns on every once in a while. I was with a

• 1:36:29Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think it turns on? What do you, is it trying to

• 1:36:31Speaker 00

  Oh, at the time, I didn't know. There was no connection.

• 1:36:34Jesse Michels?

  What do you think now?

• 1:36:34Speaker 00

  Now, it turns on when, at the 3 a.m. meeting, and I go into this semi-meditative state. And, um, I, um, uh, and it, I can feel it turns on. I, and, and I, I, I interrogate it. I say, I'm writing on this. I'm working on that. It doesn't answer me in words, but it answers me in all kinds of different ways, including synchronicities, where I will ask it for something. You know, when it first started.

• 1:37:08Jesse Michels?

  Sounds kinda awesome.

• 1:37:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's fabulous. I would, I, I have to tell you.

• 1:37:13Jesse Michels?

  You're just like an upgraded human.

• 1:37:15Speaker 00

  Exactly. I'm, that, my wife was a very wise woman, and I thank God she did not let me get that taken out. It's the best thing I have in my life right now. But anyway.

• 1:37:28Jesse Michels?

  And who, do you have any speculation on who the two people were?

• 1:37:32Speaker 00

  Let me, let me finish. And I don't know who they were, but I do know some other people that are involved with the SimPlan. This is a very surprising and fascinating story. Uh, I'm, um, uh, I have obviously got people in my life who are on the inside, and I'm going to respect their privacy. I don't agree with their secrecy, but I respect their privacy.

• 1:37:57Jesse Michels?

  And you think they take a special interest in you?

• 1:37:59Speaker 00

  They do, definitely. Absolutely. They, they have for a long, a lot of them have known for a long time. I'm getting back to, all the way back to Dr. Webb. They knew what was going on. They know. Some of them still do. Anyway.

• 1:38:12Jesse Michels?

  Sarbacher had interest in what you went.

• 1:38:14Speaker 00

  Was it, was it? Sarbacher, I mean, I

• 1:38:16Jesse Michels?

  It's like, it goes so deep. Is that organic, or was that, did he have an interest specifically in you?

• 1:38:21Speaker 00

  Oh, specifically, that's why you asked. Sarbacher wanted me to write it all out.

• 1:38:25Jesse Michels?

  Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, something.

• 1:38:28Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating.

• 1:38:29Speaker 00

  So, yeah. So, anyway. This gentleman, it's a wonderful gentleman. You both know his name, and I'm not gonna say it. Cause he also has a horrible temper. And now you know exactly, you're thinking, you know who it is. And I'm, if you say his name, I'm gonna deny it. Plausible deniability. Okay, anyway.

• 1:38:49Jesse Michels?

  I can look at your facial gestures.

• 1:38:52Speaker 00

  Anyway. He wants me to get a CT scan of the implant. And I'm eager to do this, of course. I said, well, how am I gonna do it? He says, I say, because I can't go to my doctor and say, I want a CT scan of my ear for no apparent reason. And he says, well, I'll, I'll call him. So I call the doc, the doctor, I, I, he says, and then he calls me, makes, make an appointment with him. I make an appointment with him. And he's all excited. He says, it's all set up. You just have to go over the, go to the, get, and they'll do a CT scan of your ear.

• 1:39:33Speaker 00

  I go over to the power medical lab, wherever it was. And they, they're very confused. A CT scan of your ear. And then there's a person who comes there. Who they don't know, who wants to be there. And there's a little confusion, and that's resolved finally. And so they do it. And I get it back, and it's wonderful. I've got images of it. It's a wonderfully clear, perfect scan, and you see the thing clearly. However, two days before this, after I have agreed to do it.

• 1:40:10Speaker 00

  Someone, somewhere, got the idea, apparently, that I might get it. Agreed to have it taken out, because I'm sure that's where, from the CT scan, the next step was gonna be, well, we've got a CT scan. We wanna look at it.

• 1:40:27Speaker 00

  Now, there is a certain knock on my door,

• 1:40:33Speaker 00

  which I am not going to duplicate. It's immediately recognizable and it's unusual. I know this knock and it's come to me a few times, both here in California and in other places. I know that when that happens, I'm gonna open the door and I'm gonna have a conversation with human beings, with some people.

• 1:40:54Speaker 00

  It happens. I open the door. Two men are there, one of whom I have met a number of times, one of whom I did not know. Who I suppose, I always, there's always a second one there and I always think to myself, he needs a guard for some reason. Is it because he's being watched? Or because they're scared I'll go crazy or what is it? But anyway, they come in. He proceeds to explain to me how the implant. Very nice man. He explains that it, that it can, can pick up and needed information and find it and draw me to it. I said, it's like synchronicities.

• 1:41:38Speaker 00

  He says, it's not a synchronicity. It's actually guiding you to where you need to go to get the information. And it's wonderful in that respect. All I have to do is think of something I need.

• 1:41:49Jesse Michels?

  What information?

• 1:41:50Speaker 00

  Anything, anything I need.

• 1:41:51Jesse Michels?

  Anything you want.

• 1:41:52Speaker 00

  Anything I need. When you read the new book, you're gonna see a lot of stuff about genetics and stuff in it that I have no idea about before I started writing the book, but it's all there now.

• 1:42:02Jesse Michels?

  Do you think the two people who implanted it were human or non-human?

• 1:42:06Speaker 00

  They looked like people, that's all I know. I cannot tell you anything else about them.

• 1:42:11Jesse Michels?

  I don't know, clearly there was no, there was no surgery. It was just like a.

• 1:42:14Speaker 00

  No, it was, there was no, there was no surgery there. It just went through the skin. So if they were people, they were, and, and this business with this super high intensity free-floating magnetic field. We can't do that. We can now, but we couldn't then.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wonder if these are the, the agents that Tim Taylor. Was talking about that in his high right beings.

• 1:42:37Jesse Michels?

  Or that if you talk to like people like Richard Dolan, you know, he'll say like the Men in Black phenomenon is actually very real. And that's like counterintelligence for the NHI, for the aliens or something.

• 1:42:49Speaker 00

  There's something, there's some kind of, there's some kind of bleeding off there between the, the presence.

• 1:42:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:56Speaker 00

  And the, and us. And it, it's got something to do with the DOD, I'm sure.

• 1:43:01Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:43:01Speaker 00

  I'm sure it does. Uh, but let's go back now to the incident, um, uh, to this, the two men coming into the apartment. This was a, just a few years ago. So they explained to me, the man explains to me that part of it and a few other things about how it works. And then, uh, he says it was invented by a man named Konstantin Rodiv. And they leave. And of course I immediately Google the name. And I realize as I'm Googling the name, it's not Rodiv, he mispronounces, it's Rodive.

• 1:43:40Speaker 00

  Konstantin Rodive was an expert in electronic voice phenomena, in electronic voice communication with the dead.

• 1:43:48Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. No way. With the dead.

• 1:43:50Speaker 00

  With the dead.

• 1:43:51Jesse Michels?

  So like it's a technological version of mediumship.

• 1:43:55Speaker 00

  Exactly. It's technological mediumship. And it's, he said that he designed it. Am I wearing something that was designed by someone who was dead and on the other side when he designed it? Or did he design it before he died? I don't know.

• 1:44:12Jesse Michels?

  When, when did he live?

• 1:44:14Speaker 00

  He died in the seventies, I think. But there's lots on, on the internet about him. I should say R, R, R A U D I V.

• 1:44:22Jesse Michels?

  Have you tried to match up his patents or pictures from his work to, and does it look similar?

• 1:44:27Speaker 00

  I, I didn't, I couldn't find anything. No. But I did find this out.

• 1:44:32Jesse Michels?

  But that's fascinating that you describe your, you know, this heating up at night at the specific hour that's known historically to be when you commune.

• 1:44:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:43Jesse Michels?

  And it gets, it's communion for you.

• 1:44:44Speaker 00

  You're seeing that there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a structure here. It's not random. Also, the other thing the implant does is opens up a slit in this eye. Really, it's more in this eye now, but it opens up a slit and you can see words racing through the slit too fast for you to read, except occasionally. And they all seem to be kind of nonsense words. I mean, they're words. They're English words for the most part, but they're not relevant to anything. And I asked him about that and he said, the man, he said, that's drawing up material from your unconscious that's relevant to what you're doing, what

• 1:45:25Speaker 00

  you're working on. And then this is why when I'm writing, I can remember incredible detail about all kinds of stuff.

• 1:45:36Jesse Michels?

  And you've written 40 books?

• 1:45:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, but this is, this is recent. This is after 2015. I've only written about six books since then.

• 1:45:43Jesse Michels?

  So the thing came on starting 2015.

• 1:45:46Speaker 00

  In 20, no, it came on in 1989 and it started working in 2015.

• 1:45:50Jesse Michels?

  Oh, it started activating in 2015.

• 1:45:51Speaker 00

  But there's, let's keep going here.

• 1:45:53Jesse Michels?

  Well, how does this guy know this about how it works though? How's the guy who knocks on your door come in?

• 1:45:57Speaker 00

  Because he is obviously part of the same world we're sort of talking about that I think Richard Dolan, who is a lovely, brilliant guy, has got something. I think there is a breakaway civilization and we're talking about it right now.

• 1:46:12Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. So breakaway human civilization that is systematically in touch.

• 1:46:17Speaker 00

  It sure looks human to me.

• 1:46:19Jesse Michels?

  It's fascinating.

• 1:46:20Speaker 00

  Now, then what happens is I start telling my friends this story and I'm talking about it. I tell one friend and he's asked me not to use his name. I've specifically asked him if I could. Who says, well, yeah, oddly enough, I've had a slit like that in my eye.

• 1:46:40Speaker 00

  For years, I've often wondered, and the words go through it, and you can't quite read them. I said, you know, I know what that is now, and I explain it to him. I said, and he says, well, that's extraordinary because, you know, I. He's written some books also. But here's the weirdest thing, he's one of the world's leading experts on Constantine Rodovay.

• 1:47:03Jesse Michels?

  No way. What?

• 1:47:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:47:05Jesse Michels?

  What are the chances?

• 1:47:07Speaker 00

  No, there's not chances. It's an experiment. It was been in him for longer than mine has been in me. Yeah.

• 1:47:17Jesse Michels?

  Where's Rodovay, what, where is he from?

• 1:47:20Speaker 00

  He was from Romania or Lithuania or somewhere like that. I don't recall off the offhand. But it, there's a lot, and this.

• 1:47:30Jesse Michels?

  Did this guy live in your vicinity at all, or is there, you know, any through line between you and him as to like, why he received this as well, outside of, I guess, being connected to Rodovay?

• 1:47:42Speaker 00

  There might be some kind of a through line, I can't see it, he lives up in, up in Marin County.

• 1:47:47Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think yours activated in 2015? Why the delay?

• 1:47:51Speaker 00

  I'll tell you why. I can tell you precisely. And this was, this is just stunning, but it's all part of this, and I'm, you know, we're dealing here with something that causes an allogical shock. Okay? So let's just suck it up.

• 1:48:10Speaker 00

  After Annie passed away, it began, is when it began to work. And I began to notice the slit, and I was walking across the street one day, and in bright sunlight, the slit's very obvious, you can see it. And I, I think to myself, who are you?

• 1:48:26Speaker 00

  And this word slow down and it says very clearly coming across it's me and

• 1:48:33Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, wow. So your wife, when she passed on, you think she activated this?

• 1:48:39Speaker 00

  She activated it. And I think that woman maybe knew all along. I do not, Anne is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

• 1:48:50Jesse Michels?

  She is?

• 1:48:51Speaker 00

  She is.

• 1:48:52Jesse Michels?

  So yeah, let's go into that.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  You know, can I just say something on since I came up, like I remember the first thing I ever watched on you and communion. I remember like after I prayed for her because I just, I could feel how incredible of a soul she was. And I prayed that I, I, I promise you this happened. I prayed that one day I find love like, like Whitley's.

• 1:49:14Speaker 00

  Oh, man. But you know, when one of the visitors, when I was in the abduction experience said to me, you're the luckiest of the lucky. I thought, what crap?

• 1:49:23Speaker 00

  And, and then later I thought, well, I'm must be, I written communion and now I'm a big name. But that wasn't it. It was her. It was finding Anne. And I'll tell you how I found Anne.

• 1:49:34Jesse Michels?

  How'd you find her?

• 1:49:34Speaker 00

  Well, I live, was living in London and I like England. I spent a lot of time there. I came back to the States. Daddy got mad at me because I uh, was supposed to go to the London School of Economic Studies and instead matriculated at the London Film School. And a year later, he found this out, figured this out and got all pissed off and made me come home. And so I'm back in the States and I'm in New York. And I'm trying to

• 1:50:04Speaker 00

  I want girls. I mean, I'm, you know, 23 or something. And I want a girlfriend. And I had girls in you, in London. Now I don't have any girls. So I go to singles bars and I've gotten a job. Dad said, well, you're on your own now. You got to find your work. Do your thing. And don't come back to San Antonio. Do your thing. And so uh, I um, got a job as a media planner in an advertising, Benjamin Bowles advertising. And um, I'm looking for girls. I'm going to singles bars and stuff and all the guys in the singles bars, they're airline pilots, lawyers, doctors. They're all media planners probably too. It's the lowest of the low in the advertising business. At least it was in those days. So I come from a father who's

• 1:50:50Speaker 00

  Never lie. Never lie. It's basic. It's in your, my blood. So I'm not going to say I'm a doctor or a lawyer. I said, I'm a media planner. I was getting nowhere because I'm not the prettiest thing that ever walked the earth.

• 1:51:06Jesse Michels?

  Come on, Whitley.

• 1:51:07Speaker 00

  And, nah, no. Yeah, I mean, you know.

• 1:51:10Jesse Michels?

  Don't sell yourself short.

• 1:51:11Speaker 00

  You've been to, you guys have been, you might be better in singles bars than I did. I did not do what. So I see in the Village Voice.

• 1:51:18Jesse Michels?

  Now, Omar and I just bring up aliens.

• 1:51:22Speaker 00

  Right, it's now. That's exactly what we do.

• 1:51:25Jesse Michels?

  He goes, you know how we met?

• 1:51:28Jesse Michels?

  It's actually alien. Yeah, sorry. So you had to say, you go into the single bars in New York?

• 1:51:33Speaker 00

  So I, I, I give up on that because I'm wasting my money clearly. And I see this thing in the Village Voice for something called Mind Mates. And I think, great, my main problem has always been, I want really smart girls because I want a girl, I want someone who's really, really, really smart, preferably smarter than me. I figure I'll try this. So I try my inmates. I, they send this packet with, I spent like two or three hours writing essays and filling out forms. It's a very serious deal. I mean, they're really into this. And then my stuff in, couple of weeks later, a list comes back and it's got like five names on it.

• 1:52:18Speaker 00

  All of the names are the last names of fish or close to it. Like salmon, uh, Solomon, and that there's trout and all is, I think, what the hell is this? And there's one name on it, Maddox, which is not a fish. And I think, is it, the fish are all fake and I actually was only sent one name when I was supposed to be sent five? So I call one of the fish and she's real. She is a fish. I mean, she is trout or whatever it was. So I can't just hang up on her. So I, we have a date. Doesn't work. I figure no more fish. I'm going to call the one that's not a fish. So I call Maddox.

• 1:53:02Speaker 00

  She's the receptionist that, or she's at, she says she works at a certain place and as an avenue, not fair from where I was advertising. So I go there. And this receptionist is sitting there with excellent various things about her. She looks up at me with these big brown eyes and I think, oh God, if only Ann Maddox looks like this girl. And I say, I'm here to meet Ann Maddox. She says, I'm Ann.

• 1:53:38Speaker 00

  We were not apart again. Hmm. For more than two weeks for the next forty five years. Wow. My best friend who I talked about earlier, the first thing I did was take her down to Washington to meet him and his wife. And he says to me, Whit, don't let this one go. And Ann always said, I got the imprimatur. When he said that, when I told her he had said it. And I said, she said, when I heard that, I knew I was in. Yeah. And I said, you were in before that, baby. I have no way I was ever gonna let you go. She became my wife and Ann went back to school and got a degree in English literature to be my editor.

• 1:54:22Speaker 00

  And, you know, I wrote seven novels before I published The Wolfen. And I got close with some of them. One of them was so annoying that this agent calls me and says, I'd like you to come over. I'd like to talk about your book. And I thought, I said to Ann, it's a big agent, Candida Nanadio or something. Jeff Brown, I think his name was. He was a big agent, so I'm very excited. I think finally I've got an agent. I go over to his office, sits down across from me at his desk and he says, I just want to tell you, that book was the most annoying thing I've ever read in my life.

• 1:55:03Speaker 00

  It was called a searchlight horror and it's about this town where nobody can leave. And everybody gets killed and every in these bizarre accidents and every time you get into a character, they get killed. And that's what made the book so annoying. And Anne read it and she said, yeah, Whitley, he's right. This is infuriating. In fact, I'm not going to finish it because I'm going to beat you up if I finish it.

• 1:55:27Jesse Michels?

  Wow. So and but you're almost implying before getting into describing her that there's something very special about Anne as far as her role in your life, above and beyond a romantic one.

• 1:55:38Speaker 00

  Weird stuff started to happen as soon as we were together.

• 1:55:41Jesse Michels?

  Like what?

• 1:55:42Speaker 00

  Well, the first I'm not sure this is the first thing that happened. Uh, hey, here, I'll give you a couple of examples. There was a, we lived on West 55th Street in Manhattan on between eighth and ninth. You cross eighth and then you get to Seventh Avenue and there's a little distance between Seventh Avenue and Broadway. And in that little area, there was a place we laughingly would call the whore store. It was a little storefront. It's probably not there anymore. And you would see every once in a while, a attractive looking young woman

• 1:56:23Speaker 00

  sitting in the storefront in a skimpy dress with her legs crossed and a green curtain behind her. And we would pass it back and forth because we haunted the bookstores that were then lined to Madison Avenue. And we would laugh and say, the whore store is open tonight. One night, we're going home and the chair is on its side, the curtains flying back and forth in there. And there's a guy trying to in a brown suit, trying to get out and he's being pulled back by these blue dwarfs. And we watched this for a second. What the hell? And I say to Anne, we've got to call the police. And, you know, there's no cell phones. So we're not far from home. So we run

• 1:57:08Speaker 00

  home. We're going to call the police. And she says, what do we tell them?

• 1:57:15Speaker 00

  And I think to myself, we're gonna tell them that there's this place where these blue dwarfs are trying to kidnap some guy and drag him behind a curtain? Then that is not gonna work. I mean, this is New York City. I thought, I thought to myself, the police will come here. They're not going there. So we don't call the police. We also didn't go by the horse store at night again. That's one of the many things that happened. Many, some of them were hilarious.

• 1:57:43Jesse Michels?

  It's almost like your local shared reality with Ann was sort of divergent from the consensus reality that we all live in.

• 1:57:51Speaker 00

  Precisely, precisely.

• 1:57:52Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating.

• 1:57:53Speaker 00

  Because, you know, later, these blue figures, which played, I didn't remember at the time, they played a role in my childhood. They've played a role in the whole experience in my life. I'll tell you something else about. Lori Barnes was our secretary. Ann was reading, she's getting heaps and heaps of letters. And I was saying, you know, we can't throw them out because they're very private, many of them, they got people's names and addresses. What am I gonna do?

• 1:58:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just for context, after Community came out, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people were sending letters to Willie's home because he left, he left his address being like, expecting, you know, maybe 10, 20 people to send, ends up shutting down the whole, the, the post office in his town.

• 1:58:35Speaker 00

  The abduction researcher, the pioneering abduction researcher, Bud Hopkins, who I pissed off unfortunately, but, you know, that's the story of my life. A good man was the one who said I should do that. And it was very important, very important. So I wanna just honor Bud for that. Uh, anyway, uh, we got these heaps of letters coming in and, and I said, I can't, what are we gonna do? I mean, they're literally pouring them onto the, onto the living room floor in heaps. And, um, uh, she's, I said, I can't read these. She said, well, I can read them. And she gets, she gets her letter and she starts, she was a speed reader.

• 1:59:16Speaker 00

  She could sit down and she could literally read a big, complex novel in two hours, easily. She was really smart. She was smarter than me. And that's exactly what I was looking for, is I wanted to marry a genius, and I did. So, uh, anyway, she's reading these letters. She hires a secretary and this'll come back into it in a second, we're gonna get back to the blue guys. Lori Barnes, and they're working on the letters and they're all... Four or five thousand of them are now at Rice University in a, in an archive called The Archives of the Impossible founded by Jeff Kreipel. And, uh, so they're beautifully, beautifully, uh, uh, uh, curated now.

• 2:00:00Speaker 00

  They're, so it's wonderful that they're there. So she comes out of her office one day. He says, Whitley, this has something to do with what we call death. And the letters again and again will mention the dead in connection with the visitors. And when we would have, she would choose people to come up to the cabin. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten the blue guys yet. Uh, and she would say, this letter, this person, we're gonna have them up to the cabin. And when she would get these groups up at the cabin, the visitors would show up. Wow. She knew who to get. Sounds like Ann was. And did this, and named the book Communion. Wow.

• 2:00:43Speaker 00

  And Ann, Ann said things, like, I asked Ann, what is enlightened? She says enlightenment is what happens when there's nothing left of you but love. Kind of the opposite of today's day. Well, nowadays, we think of it very intellectually. Yes. You know, it's, it's informational.

• 2:01:02Speaker 01

  That's so wild. The, the, like, one of my favorite quotes that drive this quest is the highest form of knowledge is empathy.

• 2:01:10Speaker 00

  Segues back to the telepaths. Uh huh. You're not going to the hill unless you are Yeah. kind and you do not lie. That, that's the, those are essential criteria. So, um, she hires the secretary, Laurie Barnes, and they're working on the letters. Here is Laurie's story. And now we're getting back to the blue guys in this long, complicated segue. Uh, Laurie's story is, this is back in the 50s, 54, I think it was. She's lying in bed at night alone. Her husband's a, they were, they were show people and he was on a gig. And.

• 2:01:52Speaker 00

  She notices movement out of the corner of her eye. She's reading. It's about 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock at night. She's waiting for her husband to come home. She's pregnant. And she looks up and there, standing beside the bed, is this horrible looking blue dwarf. And behind it are the line of others just like it. And of course, she recoils.

• 2:02:18Speaker 00

  And it says to her, "Do not be afraid. We're not here for you.

• 2:02:25Speaker 00

  We're interested in the girl child you're carrying." And of course, she's not, not made any more calm by that. And of course, it's the 50s. So we don't know what, it's a boy or a girl. It turned out to be a girl. She, I know her. We've talked. She's a very nice person. She has a lovely career. There's nothing about her that would say she's in any way an unusual human being, except she's a very good, sweet person and does a lot of good in the world. Um, okay, so this happens and she recoils

• 2:03:05Speaker 00

  from the creature at that point. And it says to her, "Why do you fear us so?" And she says, "You're so ugly." And it says something now that gets to way deep into the heart of this whole thing. Says, "One day, my dear, you will look just like..." Oof.

• 2:03:32Speaker 00

  Laurie has passed on. I have wondered if the little blue guy is gonna show up in my life with, but so far I haven't heard any scent, any sense of her presence at all. I do get the presence of a lot of dead people, but I haven't heard from Laurie.

• 2:03:49Jesse Michels?

  What were, what were John Mack, Stanton Friedman, these sort of legendary figures in the UFO world? What were they like? Cause you knew both personally?

• 2:03:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. Uh, well Stanton was-

• 2:04:01Speaker 00

  Stanton died basically running through an airport. I mean Stanton was the most driven human being I've ever known. He would go anywhere, he would do anything, he would not stop. And he was very coy about whether or not he had been activated. By activated, I mean, you see a UFO up close, or you have a close encounter experience, you're activated.

• 2:04:21Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:04:22Speaker 00

  You, you, most people who that happens to, they, a lot of people don't remember it, a lot of people can blow it off, but there are certain people who just will not stop. They will not stop.

• 2:04:33Jesse Michels?

  And so the, the UFO almost installs in them some sort of drive or mission to, for disclosure, or like an, an satiable curiosity, or?

• 2:04:42Speaker 00

  It installs within them a burning question.

• 2:04:45Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:04:46Speaker 00

  And they can't let that go. There, it's a wonderful, a lot of the people in this field are much more wonderful than the outside world realizes. That you, like you get a room full of close encounter witnesses together, they're all incredibly sweet and mild. You think to yourself, well, a graze, they're little and they're fragile. Of course they abduct people who are mild-mannered.

• 2:05:07Jesse Michels?

  Right. And children.

• 2:05:09Speaker 00

  And children, yeah. And I'm, I'm very mild, I should be, I'm be as mild-mannered as I am, but I am very mild-mannered. Um, Anne was the one with the temper. She could blow up in your face very easily and.

• 2:05:20Jesse Michels?

  But Stan Friedman's, to me, always stood out, along with John Mack, is these guys who are extremely rigorous, smart and accomplished in their sort of day job roles, you know, John Mack was obviously head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department, and then Stan Friedman was like this Westinghouse nuclear engineer.

• 2:05:38Speaker 00

  Right. You know, uh, Lawrence Rockefeller, who was passed on sadly, and was very interested in as much the annoyance of other members of his family, not all, but some, um, invited me and, uh, John Mack and Edgar Mitchell and, uh, Joe Lules, who's a UFO investigator from, uh, El Paso, to his Medway plantation in, uh, South Carolina, to just sit together and have a. You know, with our wives and significant others and just spend a weekend together. And it was wonderful time and I got to know Jack, John better than than I had before.

• 2:06:21Jesse Michels?

  What was that group like? And what was Lawrence Rockefeller like? And, and John Mack?

• 2:06:27Speaker 00

  Lawrence was a, Lawrence was a very,

• 2:06:32Speaker 00

  he was a good man. He had a good heart and he was very curious. And for whatever reason, he knew this was real.

• 2:06:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I find that so fascinating that some of these elite families have such a deep interest. And Lawrence, Lawrence Rockefeller, specifically in the nineties, was trying to get Hillary interested in this, like,

• 2:06:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:06:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, the photo of her holding Are We Alone by Paul Davies. And it's a gift from Lawrence Rockefeller, who was trying to get her more into disclosure and understand kind of the reality of, of non-human intelligence. So, so you got the sense that he, he knew, like, it's like he didn't even need

• 2:07:09Speaker 00

  He knew something. Lawrence knew something. And, uh, Bootsy Galbraith, uh, was also a friend of Lawrence's and, you know, I tried to warm out of Bootsy of what, uh, Lawrence knew and what they knew. But she was quite coy about it. Uh, she'd been turned on in an interesting way. She was in Mexico with Stephen Greer. And he called in a UFO and they all saw it. Uh, so.

• 2:07:34Jesse Michels?

  Didn't, didn't the Rockefellers vote on John Mack and Stephen Greer as well in the nineties, I believe?

• 2:07:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:40Jesse Michels?

  And they funded the Princeton parapsychology lab, which was studying mind over matter. So, okay. So what was John Mack like? Was he?

• 2:07:48Speaker 00

  He was, well, first of all, we were both cut ups when we were kids and played a lot of practical jokes and made bombs and did all kinds of crazy things you can't do anymore. And, uh, so we had a lot to talk about. We had loads of fun talking about our childhoods. And, uh, he was a very, very smart man. He was too smart to be deceived by assumptions. That defines his mind better in fewer words than any I can think of. He was too smart to be deceived by assumptions. I will never forget the day.

• 2:08:27Speaker 00

  I got a call and he is practically in tears. He just had the ambush. And he said, they're going to try.

• 2:08:35Jesse Michels?

  Harvard.

• 2:08:35Speaker 00

  At Harvard, yeah. He was invited to a meeting. It was actually an ambush. And they're going to try to take away my license to practice psychiatry. And they're going to try to take away my tenure. And I said, John, what are you gonna do? There was this silence on.

• 2:08:55Speaker 00

  I never would forget.

• 2:08:59Speaker 00

  That was hard.

• 2:09:02Speaker 00

  It was brutal. What they did to him, they went after him. Roger Lear had the same thing happen. They went after him. They tried to get rid of him, get, take away his license. Practice.

• 2:09:12Jesse Michels?

  It's these show trials and Dr. Diane Powell of the telepathy tapes.

• 2:09:17Speaker 00

  I was just gonna mention.

• 2:09:17Jesse Michels?

  New John Mack, when they were at Harvard together, they had offices down the hall from one another. Her medical license got revoked for studying telepathic children.

• 2:09:25Speaker 00

  Well, you know. There's two sides here. The side of Galileo. And the side of the Inquisition, and let's face it, it's very obvious. That Dr. Powell, Dr. Mack. The others, Dr. Lear are on the side of Galileo. And these other creeps are on the side of the Inquisition and they function like inquisitors.

• 2:09:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I always wonder, is it 100%? Amar and I were at the DC hearings, you know, a few weeks ago. And this just straight up. Spook came up to us and in the hotel that we were staying at. Yells at us from across the hall. Uh, our friend Chris Ramsey, who's an amazing magician from Canada, who's gotten super interested in the UFO thing. He's actually a world famous magician. Kind of knows when people have tricks up their sleeves because a lot of, you know, the name he's made as a magician is actually debunking other magicians tricks or elucidating them and showing how they work. And so this guy is provoking us, trying to get, basically get us to say that we're cynical about disclosure and like, don't believe in UFOs and aliens by saying.

• 2:10:36Jesse Michels?

  Asking these leading questions, saying, you know, it's all bullshit, right? You know, you guys are just doing it for content, right? You want clicks, you want likes, whatever. And then Chris, after he leaves, is like, that guy had his hand in his right pocket the whole time and was definitely trying to record you. And anyways, going back to this kind of establishment, you know, scapegoater role versus the truth seeker, innocent truth seeker. I think about people on that side, like that guy, like, what's your psychology? Like, do you, do you have any historical context for what you're doing? Like, if you, if you're just persecuting people earnestly looking into, you know, truth? Like, how do you live with yourself? And do you have zero, like, metaphysical understanding?

• 2:11:20Jesse Michels?

  Like, you don't think any of your earthly actions have any implications for what you do in the future? It's all just, you're expedient, expediently aligning yourself with establishment forces? You just want a promotion? Like, like, what do you think's gonna happen to you?

• 2:11:33Speaker 00

  You don't, you don't want to do that because you don't want, we have souls and we're anesthetized to our souls for a reason, so that we can live free. But, no, you definitely don't want to live a lie, in lies, and you don't want to hurt other people. You have to, um, like, and another thing Ann said, it's so powerful. I asked her what compassion was, because I'm, I'm really interested in compassion. I want to be a compassionate man, I want to be a good man. And she says to me, she didn't answer the question directly, she says, "Each of us

• 2:12:15Speaker 00

  is all we have." And that really went through me, because, you know, when I'm on the street and I'm, someone's pissing me off, or I'm, I'm, I'm a driver in LA and there are, there's the odd three-minute period when I'm not pissed off. Uh, and I always think of this, these words, and I'm face to face with someone I really don't like and don't want to be with. This person is all they have. It changes everything. It's incredibly powerful. It makes you into a better person just by knowing those few words and keeping them in your, it's amazing.

• 2:13:01Speaker 00

  You know, that's power. That's word power of the first order.

• 2:13:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And we are all on a journey. And I think it's some, you know, there's evil is typically depicted as being consciously tyrannical evil, you know, sort of like mastermind evil. Often it's just being unconscious. It's just, you know, acting on sort of these primitive instincts that are is often the default and emerges if you don't kind of consciously override it or seek virtue. And, uh, yeah, I think, uh, we all just need to look at ourselves.

• 2:13:32Speaker 00

  And she would always engage with homeless people and stuff.

• 2:13:36Jesse Michels?

  And?

• 2:13:37Speaker 00

  And would, yeah. And I, I would say, you know, uh, how can you know whether or not, you know, I always would, she said, just don't judge them. You, you'll feel which ones can use your help and which ones can't.

• 2:13:53Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:13:54Speaker 00

  Just don't judge them. Don't, don't go there, Whitley. Don't go to that part of your head. You don't know why they're there out in the street and you never will. It's not your business.

• 2:14:05Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of which, given that you wrote a book on Jesus, Jesus has been sort of rewritten by the likes of Thomas Jefferson, Stephen Mitchell, all sorts of writers, yourself now. What do you think most people misunderstand about him?

• 2:14:22Speaker 00

  They misunderstand.

• 2:14:26Speaker 00

  Well, a lot of things, but the most misunderstood thing is in modern times is the resurrection. Uh, Jefferson Bible takes it out.

• 2:14:37Speaker 00

  It should not be taken out. In Jesus and New Vision, I go into exactly why it actually happened. And this gets way back to the beginning of our conversation when you mentioned that suffering has something to do with these extraordinarily powerful states. It activates something that happened to Jesus.

• 2:14:59Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:15:00Speaker 00

  What happened in the tomb was a real thing. And the book lays out exactly what happened because there's been magnificent research done on it. It's ignored because it doesn't fit the paradigm. But in fact, he did come out of the tomb.

• 2:15:16Jesse Michels?

  The tomb was empty when Mary came back.

• 2:15:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, as a light being and, and the shroud. Remember he said, "If you do not follow me, I will return as a thief in the night." And then, and in Jesus and New Vision, I point out the time of that return. It was 1898 when the first photograph was taken of the shroud. That was the moment he returned.

• 2:15:41Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:15:42Speaker 00

  And we saw him on the shroud.

• 2:15:45Jesse Michels?

  The shroud is amazing, and I think it was studied by like NASA at some point, right?

• 2:15:49Speaker 00

  No, it was studied by a group of, group of air force guys.

• 2:15:52Jesse Michels?

  Air force, yeah.

• 2:15:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:54Jesse Michels?

  And they claimed to debunk it, but they only took a little piece of it or something?

• 2:15:57Speaker 00

  Oh, no, I'll tell you the story. I'm very close to this story.

• 2:16:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:00Speaker 00

  Uh, Father Peter Rinaldi was a friend of Anne's. She had, you know, if you ever go to New York, when you go to New York, go down to LaGuardia Place. And between LaGuardia and, uh, right off of, right, uh, immediately north of, uh, of, uh, Houston Street and, uh, rather Bleecker Street. It's 520 LaGuardia on one side, and there's this beautiful park on the other side called LaGuardia Park. If you go, you'll see a statue of LaGuardia in there, and you look down at the bottom of the statue. And there's a plaque and all these famous social people are on the plaque, and so are the names Anne and Whitney Strieber.

• 2:16:41Speaker 00

  And one day, we lived in the building, 520 LaGuardia Place, she was looking down there and she said, you know, I'm gonna turn that into a park. It was just a place, you know, it was a druggie hangout and stuff. And she's, I said, "How can you do that?" I visualized her going down there with a shovel. She said, "Well, I'm gonna do it." And she called, got all her friends going and got them networking. And soon they had millions of dollars to build this park and to create the statue and permission from the city. And there's the plaque, there's the statue. It's a wonderful statue of LaGuardia. The park is so verdant and full of birds and... That's Ann.

• 2:17:20Speaker 01

  I'll go, I will go there.

• 2:17:21Speaker 00

  Don't miss it. It's like, it's a pilgrimage place in my own life.

• 2:17:25Speaker 01

  Next time, I'll definitely.

• 2:17:26Jesse Michels?

  Me too.

• 2:17:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love to meditate in that park now. So what happens to Jesus is this, in at least I understand it. He goes to Egypt. He understands the resurrection technique there. And he sets out to do this. And I retranslated the sayings Gospel of Thomas. It's, you know, he translates Greek. It's easy Greek. I mean, it's very simple.

• 2:18:00Jesse Michels?

  The Gospel of Thomas is remarkable.

• 2:18:02Speaker 00

  It's absolutely extraordinary.

• 2:18:03Jesse Michels?

  But what do you say to the people? Because I'll argue all day with like conventional Christians where I'm like, think that book is really special. And then they say, oh, it was found. You know, first of all, it was written 150 years later after his death. And it was found, you know, 1948 in this sort of, you know, pile of the, you know, the nakamati or whatever.

• 2:18:22Speaker 00

  The Sayings Gospel of Thomas, according to the few scholars, is the oldest gospel, and they're probably right.

• 2:18:28Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so it's the oldest gospel.

• 2:18:29Speaker 00

  Right. It was the beginning of the of the story.

• 2:18:32Jesse Michels?

  Let's go to the thread of you saying that Jesus went to Egypt.

• 2:18:36Speaker 00

  He learned this technique in Egypt.

• 2:18:39Jesse Michels?

  And technique is sort of the mystery ritual resurrection?

• 2:18:42Speaker 00

  Total ego death. And we're going to get back to the part about the the discovery of the shroud and the work that was done on it in a minute. I don't want to forget that, and then we could quit. Uh. He then, in effect, becomes a magician at a time where in the Roman Empire, the Cornelian laws are in effect. And they will kill you in all kinds of very, very depressing ways if they catch you being a magician. So he's very careful. That's why he tells people, don't tell anyone that I'm doing this. He understands something about the mind. And my new book is all about this. It's about recovering this power.

• 2:19:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:22Speaker 00

  Because we can all do this.

• 2:19:23Jesse Michels?

  I believe that.

• 2:19:25Speaker 00

  And this is where I differ from the conventional Christians. Jesus is in all of us.

• 2:19:31Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:19:32Speaker 00

  That power is in all of us. He wasn't here to put himself on a pedestal. He was here to say, I am the son of man. I am a human being.

• 2:19:44Jesse Michels?

  Well, in the, in the Gospel of Thomas, doesn't he take? Thomas, who's typically depicted as, you know, this Judas, Judas as this like betrayer. Uh, he's, he takes Thomas aside and he whispers secret words to him.

• 2:19:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:19:57Jesse Michels?

  And so what are the, what are those secret words?

• 2:19:59Speaker 00

  Well, he doesn't tell, but they, the other disciples ask him. What did he say? And he says, they say, Thomas says, if I told you, you would stone him to death. In the Sayings Gospel, he says, don't believe me. I'm not a teacher. He says, go out among the Gentiles and eat the food you're given. Violate the law. A total revolutionary, what he's saying is, leave your ego behind and be you, your real self. And it doesn't matter. Everything depends on this. Do anything to find yourself.

• 2:20:42Speaker 00

  It goes all the way back to the Delphic Oracle, know thyself.

• 2:20:47Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:20:47Speaker 00

  And this is also the word, the core word of Jesus, know thyself. And the kingdom of heaven is within you.

• 2:20:55Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, and all around you.

• 2:20:57Speaker 00

  And all around you, but find it.

• 2:20:59Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:20:59Speaker 00

  Be as little children.

• 2:21:01Jesse Michels?

  What, what's the other Gospel of Thomas quote? It's, um, if you look up, the birds will precede you. If you look to the sea, the fish will precede you. The kingdom of heaven is within you.

• 2:21:11Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:21:12Jesse Michels?

  And.

• 2:21:12Speaker 00

  The great poetry of being is there.

• 2:21:14Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:21:15Speaker 00

  It's a poetry of being.

• 2:21:16Jesse Michels?

  It's so, it's fascinating and, and we, I, you know, I just interviewed Doc, uh, Colonel Carl Nell. Who he kind of traces back the origins of these sort of esoteric versions of religion that he thinks all kind of bound together in this kind of hermetic lineage. And he talks about the festival of Sed and the Egyptian magical papyri where you have these sort of, you know, secret brotherhoods in Egypt.

• 2:21:38Speaker 00

  That's very interesting. I did not know that. I want to talk to Carl about that. I don't know him well. I sent him an ark of my new book and that's an advanced reading copy of my new book. I haven't heard back yet from anyone. I sent all my friends that ark. I sent it, I even sent it to Robert Bigelow, who I know, but not well. And I sent it to Jacques Vallée and Leslie Kane, who is a close friend. And of course Jeff Kreipel and Hal Pudoff, who's been a friend since forever. I mean, we've been friends since I was since I was, we've been friends for over 30 years.

• 2:22:12Jesse Michels?

  Since how old were you?

• 2:22:13Speaker 00

  Well, since the communion experience.

• 2:22:14Jesse Michels?

  Since communion. Okay, so, so, um, let's go to the Shroud of Turin because I have a friend named Randall Carlson, works a lot with Graham Hancock, incredibly smart, just super rigorous. I would not do justice to his work on this topic, but he has all sorts of first principles arguments as to why the Shroud of Turin is absolutely real.

• 2:22:35Speaker 00

  It is. He's probably right. Okay, here's what happened. A father, Peter Rinaldi, who Anne knew, uh, calls us up one day, calls her up one day and says, I want you to come to a meeting. We're having a meeting about the Shroud of Turin. Would you be interested? And she of course says, yes, we'll come. And I said, what is the Shroud of Turin? She said, well, let's go to the meeting. We'll find out. We go to the meeting and it's with Jackson and Jumper, the two guys who are, they're fundraising for the initial studies. And, um, I never meet them. I mean, I talk, you know, in a fundraiser context, but I never like become friends or anything with them.

• 2:23:19Speaker 00

  So we contributed as much money as we could afford to it, a few thousand dollars. And we follow it. And they do their stuff and it's all in the papers. And then I hear that material has been taken from the shroud and it's going to be sent to Oxford. And I write Father Rinaldi a letter, do not do this. They have to defend their paradigm. They will lie without knowing it. And they do very, that very thing. They say the shroud is from the Middle Ages.

• 2:24:00Speaker 00

  They destroy the research, but it doesn't end because this is humanity. And there are other people in the world who have a better grasp of the truth here. They can feel the energy. And other scientists, and now Jesus and your vision sums up where they are. And where they are is you can't deny it anymore if you're a real scientist. The shroud is the single strangest thing on planet Earth. And it is that way because it records the moment. A human being whose body had expired transformed into a being of light.

• 2:24:43Jesse Michels?

  What makes you think it's real?

• 2:24:45Speaker 00

  Uh, the weave of the cloth, the pollens found on it, all place it in exactly that place.

• 2:24:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:52Speaker 00

  And time, the uh, uh, image itself could not have been produced by almost anything except a sudden burst of neurons. And remember the rending of the, of the curtain in the temple and the earthquake? That was the moment of the resurrection. It's a tremendously powerful event.

• 2:25:15Jesse Michels?

  A burst of neurons?

• 2:25:17Speaker 00

  A burst of, of energy that involves uh,

• 2:25:21Jesse Michels?

  Oh, neutron, neutrons.

• 2:25:22Speaker 00

  Neutrons, involves a, it involves an expression of a burst of neutrons. And that's what burned the image into the shroud.

• 2:25:30Jesse Michels?

  And that's the whole thing of like maybe that intense suffering.

• 2:25:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25:35Speaker 00

  All the way back to the

• 2:25:37Jesse Michels?

  And that kind of electromagnetic, the neutron burst. And then you're in, there are all these ancient art depictions of like saints and holy figures traveling up in this kind of kabbalistic like bubble envelope thing like this celestial ascent vehicle, Merkaba vehicle, or whatever, Wheel of Ezekiel, you know?

• 2:25:56Speaker 00

  The whole theme of this conversation, it goes back to what you just said. We've been talking about the power of suffering in all kinds of different ways over the course of this conversation. And now here we are coming to the end of it. And we're talking about the ultimate moment that the power of human suffering was expressed into the world by Jesus in his resurrection. And this is where we have to go. We have to go back to an understanding of that, which is also an understanding of ourselves and face the hardest thing of all, which is this place is a miracle. It is a whole, this whole planet is a miracle. And that's why all of these unmiraculous but fascinated creatures are going around here

• 2:26:41Speaker 00

  and why they do not want us to kill ourselves off.

• 2:26:45Jesse Michels?

  On that note, I, this makes me want to go pray. That's definitely what I'm going to go do, but like, yeah. Oh. We should do a prayer session after. Yeah, for sure. I can't think of a better note to end on.

• 2:26:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:26:58Jesse Michels?

  Willie, we really appreciate your time. This was awesome.

• 2:27:00Speaker 00

  Thank you. I'm so glad. It was such a pleasure to be here. You guys were really fun to be with.

• 2:27:05Jesse Michels?

  Thank you so much. Right back at you, man. You got a lot to say and I hope the, the world understands how profound your messages, your experiences are.

• 2:27:15Speaker 00

  It will in time. I probably, I probably have become a shade by then, but nevertheless they will.

• 2:27:22Jesse Michels?

  Well, you look great now, so.

• 2:27:24Speaker 00

  I feel great too. I biked 10 miles this morning.

• 2:27:27Jesse Michels?

  Oh, that's incredible.

• 2:27:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I do it, I do it three times a week or swim or go to the gym. I'm a very active guy physically.

• 2:27:34Jesse Michels?

  Good for you, man. Well, okay. Well, thank you, Willie. Appreciate it, man.

• 2:27:39Speaker 00

  Pleasure.

• 2:27:41Jesse Michels?

  Huge news, everyone. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing weekly in our new WAP. Our first episode is a completely uncut, heated discussion between Hal Putoff and Eric Weinstein on remote viewing. Yeah, you heard that right. I still can't believe I experienced that firsthand, and now I'm happy to share it with you all as our first exclusive video on WAP. Head over to wap.com/americanalchemypremium to become a premium member today. By becoming a member, you'll gain access to weekly premium videos, behind-the-scenes footage, and monthly group calls where we discuss the ideas we love most. Plus, you'll get early access to merchandise drops and be the first to know about the upcoming

• 2:28:24Jesse Michels?

  conference we'll be holding later in 2025. Our WAP community will serve as a private space where curious individuals and tech enthusiasts can come together to challenge the status quo and explore ideas shaping our future. If you're passionate about exploring unconventional ideas and want to dive even deeper into our content, I invite you to join our WAP today. Head over to wap.com/americanalchemypremium to become a premium member today. Thank you so much, and enjoy the rest of today's episode.