Women in Combat Roles, CST (Cultural Support Teams) | Jessica Yahn | Ep. 327

Jessica worked as CST attached to Delta Force and the 75th Ranger Regiment, she then went on and assessed for SOF. Find Jessica here:⬇️ https://alltru.com https://dulcineaproductions.com/work New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️ https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.com Support the show here:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse ___________________________________________________ Subscribe to the new EYES ON podcast here:⬇️ https://www.youtube.com/@EyesOnPodcast/featured —————————————————————- Today's Sponsors: GhostBed⬇️ https://www.ghostbed.com/house FOR 50% OFF!!! StopBox USA Get firearm security redesigned and save with BOGO the StopBox Pro AND 10% off @StopBoxUSA with code HOUSE at https://www.stopboxusa.com/HOUSE #stopboxpod ____________________________________ Pre-order Jack Murphy's new book "We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History" today! ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ —————————————————————— To help support the show and for all bonus content including: https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse -AD FREE AUDIO -AD FREE VIDEO -Access to ALL bonus segments with our guests Subscribe to our Patreon! ⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Or make a one time donation at: ⬇️ https://ko-fi.com/theteamhouse Social Media: ⬇️ The Team House Instagram: https://instagram.com/the.team.house?utm_medium=copy_link The Team House Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheTeamHousePod Jack’s Instagram: https://instagram.com/jackmcmurph?utm_medium=copy_link Jack’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackmurphyrgr?s=21 Dave’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/dave_parke?s=21 Team House Discord: ⬇️ https://discord.gg/wHFHYM6 SubReddit: ⬇️ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheTeamHouse/ Jack Murphy's memoir "Murphy's Law" can be found here:⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Law-Journey-Investigative-Journalist/dp/1501191241 The Team Room Reading Room (Amazon Affiliate links):⬇️ https://jackmurphywrites.com/the-team-room-reading-room/ Intro music by https://www.youtube.com/user/RemixSample Want to sponsor the show? Email: ⬇️ [email protected] Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 2:54Speaker 03

  Special operations.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  Covert Ops. Espionage. The Team House. With your hosts, Jack Murphy and David Park.

• 3:14Jack Murphy?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome to episode 327 of The Team House. I'm Jack here with our guest tonight, Jessica Yon. Jessica served as a Signals Officer in the Army. Served with the CST program and then had some other interesting Army Special Ops assignments. And today is also working on a documentary project, which is going to be out by the time most of you guys see this video. So the documentary is called Guerrera. It is going to be out on Amazon Saturday. So we're recording this on Wednesday. By the time most of you guys see this, it will already be available on Amazon. So please go check it out and we'll get all into the details of the documentary in a little bit.

• 3:58Jack Murphy?

  Jessica, thank you for joining us on the show tonight.

• 4:00Speaker 05

  Thank you for having me.

• 4:01Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Appreciate you coming out and admiring our set. I had, you know, Tim Weiner said this couch was ugly.

• 4:10Speaker 05

  I love the couch.

• 4:12Jack Murphy?

  It is blasphemy.

• 4:17Speaker 05

  That's a fantastic deal.

• 4:19Jack Murphy?

  That's the art of the deal over there behind the

• 4:21Speaker 05

  There we go.

• 4:22Jack Murphy?

  Behind the desk. Yeah. So Jessica, I mean, let's, let's sort of start at the beginning. I ask most of the people on the show to tell us like their origin story. Like, what was your upbringing like? Where did you grow up? And what was sort of the path that eventually took you towards the Army?

• 4:41Speaker 05

  Sure. My dad was Air Force. So first, by going Army, I was no longer his favorite child.

• 4:47Jack Murphy?

  No longer the preferred child?

• 4:50Speaker 05

  So grew up military brat, moved around a lot. Primarily California and Northern Virginia, probably where we spent the most time. I had four sisters, always a little chaos in the house. My dad was a pilot. He flew the U-2, which is a pretty cool platform. And so I had already, always grown up, you know, watching Patton, Deer Hunter, all the classics, right? Anytime I'd bring a boy home, dad would sit him down and have him watch Deer Hunter. And that's, that was it, you know? So I always felt drawn to service. You know, and then nine 11 happened. I was, you know, eighth grade at the time, remember it coming on the TVs?

• 5:32Jack Murphy?

  I feel so old right now.

• 5:35Speaker 05

  But that moment, you know, that sticks. Everyone, you know, everyone can, can recall that. And, um, and I originally actually went to the Air Force Academy. I played soccer at the Air Force Academy, was a little too free spirited for that place. And wound up commissioning through University, University of California, Santa Barbara, through Army ROTC.

• 5:59Jack Murphy?

  Wow, so yeah, too many keg stands for the Air Force, huh?

• 6:04Jack Murphy?

  Um, so Air Force ROTC to Army ROTC.

• 6:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs there. And then, yep, switched over to Army ROTC. And then, yeah, the rest is, rest is history.

• 6:21Jack Murphy?

  So you were commissioned as a Signals Officer?

• 6:24Speaker 05

  Yep, Signal Corps. And first duty assignment, the center of the universe, Fort Bragg.

• 6:32Jack Murphy?

  We can call it Fort Bragg.

• 6:33Speaker 05

  We can call it Fort Bragg again, yeah.

• 6:35Jack Murphy?

  Went away for a little while.

• 6:36Speaker 05

  I was just getting used to calling it Fort Liberty.

• 6:38Jack Murphy?

  Now it's back. Fort Bragg is back.

• 6:42Jack Murphy?

  So explain to folks a little bit about like what your sort of responsibilities were because now we're getting sort of like into your platoon leader time, right? What is a PL and a signals unit do on Fort Bragg?

• 6:56Speaker 05

  As soon as I got to the unit, we were on a deployment, you know, readying to go on deployment and I was assigned to 35th Signal Brigade, which is an expeditionary signal unit. However, you know, we were about 10, you know, a decade into the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and signal units had been cycling through and serving in a strategic communications capacity. So when I deployed forward, we essentially, you know, split and ran, you know, communications at all the various bases across the country, primarily doing, you know, strategic comms,

• 7:35Speaker 05

  not tactical, you know, spent most of the time, you know, on base and working through, just keeping things up and running for all the various units that obviously have to tie into that infrastructure.

• 7:50Jack Murphy?

  When you say strategic communications, are we talking about how the bases in Iraq communicate with like combatant commanders and Pentagon and, you know, those elements back home?

• 8:01Speaker 05

  Exactly. I mean, these are, these are big pipes, earth terminals that are, you know, manned and maintained by signal soldiers. And so without that, you know, you're getting, when one of those goes down, it's not like, hey, one, one truck doesn't have comms or one company, it's the entire, you know, fleet, the entire theater is, you know, out, out on comms. So, yeah, it was a very great experience to have that deployment early on.

• 8:40Speaker 05

  It was an opportunity to lead, you know, separated from the flagpole, if you will, because again, you know, platoon leaders went out and became these, you know, in charge of these signal sites. And so, you know, that, that made you grow quick.

• 8:57Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, absolutely. But, I mean, I also get the sense that you were looking for a little bit something more. So this is like, what, 2011, 2012?

• 9:07Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 9:08Jack Murphy?

  You come back home. Tell us a little bit about, when's the first time that you hear about this thing called the CST program? How does that creep into your mind?

• 9:18Speaker 05

  It was actually a friend of mine from deployment, one of the warrant officers in the unit. You know, we came back and he told me, "Hey, have you heard about this thing?" I was like, "No, no idea, but it sounds pretty awesome." And I, you know, learned a little more about it. It's pretty vague. Essentially, there's, you know, one of those blast emails that goes out. There's, there were a couple flyers that were put up around Fort Bragg that said, "Hey, you know, we're looking for women to volunteer to go to assessment and selection and serve, you know, in Afghanistan alongside special operations teams."

• 9:59Speaker 05

  And so, to me, I was like, "Absolutely, I want to do that." Took it to my battalion commander at the time and didn't get a yes right away, you know. I was on, you know, what we called a global response force. You know, I was still a platoon leader at the time.

• 10:17Jack Murphy?

  Oh, because it was attached to the 82nd?

• 10:18Speaker 05

  Yes, exactly. So, did, did my time as a platoon leader, served in the operations shop, and then the next iteration of assessment and selection, I, you know, applied for that. And at the time, the, the program was, you know, when you applied, it's not like you left your unit and were, you're essentially TDY. You're, you're basically going-

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• 12:11Speaker 05

  For a short-term deployment with special operations and then coming right back. And so it was a...

• 12:19Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, CST was not a unit, per se. It was like a program that people would be attached or detached to and then sent back to the home station. So what did you know about the cultural support teams as you get ready for selection? I mean, you said you knew that they deploy with special operations and support those types of missions. Did you have any sort of conception or was there like a briefing or anything to sort of explain what this new job was?

• 12:48Speaker 05

  Completely no idea.

• 12:51Speaker 05

  Um, I, uh, you know, it's interesting, you know, you go back to when you're in ROTC, you're deciding what branch you want. And, you know, at the time, you know, you're just, as a, as a woman, you're like, okay, Intel, Signal, you know, there's things that obviously weren't open when I was commissioning. And even though I loved, you know, the movie G.I. Jane and, you know, had these, um, probably desires that I didn't know at the time to, to do things like that, because it just wasn't an option, you know, you're not necessarily thinking about it. But when this CST program came around, it was very much, okay, this

• 13:36Speaker 05

  is an opportunity to be at the tip of the spear, to be, um, you know, involved in a little bit more, you know, um, just clo- closer way. And I'm always one to like get after a challenge, um, um, you know, kind of embrace the suck kind of thing. So to me, this was a chance to, even if I were to go and fail, you're going to learn something about yourself and, um, you know, give it a go. So.

• 14:04Jack Murphy?

  So what was selection like?

• 14:08Speaker 05

  Lot, well, uh, man, walking into selection, you're surrounded by like tons of women, which is a, in Signal Corps unit, like in Signal units, that's not.

• 14:17Jack Murphy?

  On Fort Bragg, that's.

• 14:18Speaker 05

  It's still rare, you know, usually you're like one of one, you know, maybe one of a couple. Um, so you walk into this selection and you're looking around and it's like all of these, you know, alpha women. And, you know, they had sapper tabs and everyone's kind of just like figuring each other out. And, uh, you quickly realize that, um, you know, it's just a, a bunch of women that want to empower each other and also do, you know, really well. And they're gonna, um, they're not going to leave anything, you know, on the table. And, and so, cool to be in that kind of environment, kind of like shocking at the same time. Um, it was as much, uh, physical, um, as it was, you know, mental,

• 15:03Speaker 05

  you know, like with, you know, any kind of selection process, there's, you know, they're trying to test not just the, the physical side. And so, you know, do you have the?

• 15:16Speaker 05

  The grit, do you have the ability to work through ambiguous situations? How do you react to little to no information? All of that, you know, is kind of part of the process.

• 15:27Jack Murphy?

  Tell us, tell us a little bit more about that, about how they assessed you guys and selected you. I'm guessing that a rucksack was involved in this process?

• 15:36Speaker 05

  Lots of rucking.

• 15:37Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 05

  Yes, I, I do love a good ruck. So those, those ruck marches were fun for me.

• 15:45Speaker 05

  You know, we did, whether it was upper body, various tests and, you know, workouts, a ton of rucking, anywhere from short distance to unknown distance. Team events, you know, where you're given a problem to solve. And, you know, you figure out, you know, the dynamics of, hey, can you work together?

• 16:10Jack Murphy?

  Where you have to build some sort of weird apparatus.

• 16:12Speaker 05

  Build some apparatus, you know? I mean, it was very much modeled after, you know, it's run by this US Army Special Operations Command. So modeled after other.

• 16:24Jack Murphy?

  So the instructors were probably SF guys?

• 16:27Speaker 05

  SF and Ranger Regiment.

• 16:29Jack Murphy?

  Cool.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. And so it's funny, one of our primary trainers from Ranger Regiment, you know, he tells a story of how, yeah, he got, you know, asked to be a part of this program and go run, you know, because run part of the training. And he's like, a platoon-sized element of women? Yeah, why not? So, so that's a, it's a, it's great, you know? His perspective of why he wanted to do it, but, you know, he was an incredible trainer. And so, yeah, we, as we evolved through, you know, different iterations, obviously, selection and then having made it going to training after a lot with weapons training as well.

• 17:13Speaker 05

  I'd say that's, that was, you know, kind of the bulk of.

• 17:17Jack Murphy?

  Because you have all of these people coming from different branches, just different MOSs who maybe don't have like the combat training.

• 17:25Speaker 05

  Absolutely. I mean, again, Signal Corps, they're very little time on the range. You know, however, my teammate next to me was an MP, so you know, she was very comfortable with, you know, on the range, did a ton, you know, had a ton more reps. So yeah, there's a level of, you know, hey, baselining, baselining folks on the, on the tactics,

• 17:47Speaker 05

  how the teams that you're going to be attached to work, you know, different radio calls,

• 17:57Speaker 05

  you know, the, the dynamics of the team, how it's structured. And then of course, the cultural component, which was, you know, really the, the origin of the CST program was an operational, you know, demand from Joint Force commanders. They said, hey, we've been doing this thing here in Afghanistan for a decade and we haven't seen the other half of a target building, or we haven't spoken to the other 50% of this village. And so the, the purpose behind the CST program was really to work with and engage women and children to, for operational advantage, whether that was gathering critical information,

• 18:39Speaker 05

  intelligence, or, you know, understanding what problems a village might have so that you could influence more effectively.

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• 21:09Jack Murphy?

  And so as you get selected, I mean, how long was the selection course?

• 21:16Speaker 05

  Three weeks.

• 21:17Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 21:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, typical, typical selection. Yeah.

• 21:21Jack Murphy?

  Three weeks of selection. You get selected for this CST unit or program.

• 21:28Jack Murphy?

  And this is when they start sort of like briefing you on what you just described. This is what this element is going to do.

• 21:34Speaker 05

  Right, right. And at the time, so any special operations team in Afghanistan.

• 21:42Speaker 05

  Had essentially a CST team, usually of two, attached to them. So that included both the ODA's Village Stability Operations and then Direct Action, you know, Joint Task Force units that, you know, fell under, you know, JSOC. So there were kind of two tracks. And all of the women that made it through assessment and selection did a baseline course together at Bank Hall, you know, right there, at SWIC. And then we were selected either into to support Village Stability Operations or to support Direct Action.

• 22:23Speaker 05

  And, you know, you got to make your little wish list of, okay, I want to go VSO because of XYZ or, you know, what have you. And then, but ultimately, they're gonna, I feel like it's like NFL Draft or whatever. They got all your, your, your portfolios, your bios and the, the units that are, you know, that you're gonna go, going out and support are coming in and saying, okay, I think this is a good match for my team. And, and that's kind of how they, you wound up, you know, landing with who you were deployed with.

• 22:54Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, the operational needs.

• 22:58Jack Murphy?

  So where did you fall in? Where did they, where did they put you?

• 23:01Speaker 05

  Well, I actually requested Village Stability Operations. I really liked the idea of being able to be out with the local population.

• 23:14Speaker 05

  I got pulled to the Direct Action side and very grateful for that, you know. I, I think either experience would have been, you know, pretty awesome. But I had a really great team that I was deployed with. And so, you know, things happen for a reason.

• 23:33Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. So where did you go? What unit were you supporting?

• 23:36Speaker 05

  So I was up north in Condu's with Delta. And then about halfway through my deployment, you know, Condu shut down, moved to Mez. And at that point, I switched and served with 375.

• 23:51Jack Murphy?

  Wow. And, and how long were you overseas for in this trip?

• 23:55Speaker 05

  Six months.

• 23:57Jack Murphy?

  Okay. So split between these two units, that's pretty interesting.

• 24:00Speaker 05

  Yes. And when I Unfortunately, my, the teammate that I was meant to deploy forward with Torre ACL kind of towards the tail end of our training, so I actually went solo forward, which I had a female interpreter, US citizen, Afghan US citizen. And so I wasn't, you know, totally the only chick out there, you know, and we, the CST program also trained a partner force, so the female tactical platoon. Not every team had one of the Afghan females, but I did for some of the time. And so it was, you know, that cohort, you know, myself, Habiba was my interpreter, and

• 24:45Speaker 05

  then I had a couple of different FTPs rotate through, so that kind of core element was who I spent, you know, the bulk of the

• 24:52Jack Murphy?

  That's pretty cool.

• 24:53Speaker 05

  The time with.

• 24:55Jack Murphy?

  And so how was it, you know, I have to ask, of course, how was it integrating into a predominantly male unit? This CST thing is all like very new to everyone, right?

• 25:06Speaker 05

  Yeah. I, again, had, it all comes down to the leadership on the team that I integrated with. So, one of the first things that happened when I got on ground in conduits, the teams were actually switching out. So, new, you know, sergeant major, basically, on my first mission with them, I'm walking to my kit room, and the guys are walking to the guys' kit room, and the, you know, sergeant major is like, CST, where are you going? I was like, uh, going to get ready, you know? And he's like, grab your stuff, get over here.

• 25:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, so in that moment, you know, he established

• 25:55Speaker 05

  You know, the precedent for the team like, hey, this is a member of the team. She's gonna get ready in this kit room because, you know, things might change right before we get on the bird. And she needs to be part of that and she needs to hear that. So I think you got a little bit of flack for that in the beginning. And, you know, I even asked, are you sure, you know, I should be in the kit room? And he's like, you shut up, you shut up, like, you're in the kit room. And you're, we're gonna figure this out. It's all, you know, everyone's gonna be okay. And so that, again, to me is a great example of inclusive leadership. And for no other reason than he wanted to ensure that I was as prepared as anyone else prior to going out on the bird.

• 26:43Speaker 05

  There were, you know, a lot of different CSTs had different experiences. So some had, you know, more challenge, being kind of welcomed. I think two of my teammates who served on the village stability operations side, you know, said, hey, really what it came down to was the first, you know, first comp, you know, time we were in combat. That's, you know, the great equalizer. And it was after that, after they, the team saw that they could react and perform. It kind of was.

• 27:20Jack Murphy?

  Came together.

• 27:20Speaker 05

  Came together. And so I think time on target is important, you know, to demonstrate, you know, character, competence, commitment, and be able to kind of win that trust. And it doesn't matter if you're the CST, the dog guy, the other enabler. Like, y'all, y'all go in there and you're all gonna have to, you know, prove yourself before you're kind of welcomed into the fold.

• 27:44Jack Murphy?

  I also have to, I have to ask for, you know, full disclosure, for my own amusement, if nothing else, I would love to hear about what the difference was like working with Delta in the Ranger Regiment.

• 27:55Speaker 05

  Totally different.

• 28:00Speaker 05

  Both.

• 28:02Speaker 06

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection,

• 28:47Speaker 06

  inflammation in the nose, flu or flulike symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extenture. Learn more at extenture.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 29:31Speaker 05

  I'm in awe of, you know, these teams. And I'll, real quick, reference Jenny Moreno, who was deployed in my cohort of CST. She was killed on Objective Ares

• 29:46Speaker 05

  in October of 2013 with three...

• 29:49Jack Murphy?

  The IED.

• 29:50Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 29:51Jack Murphy?

  Yep.

• 29:51Speaker 05

  She wrote in her journal, and I remember reading this and, you know, thinking the same thing. What an honor it is to be around these guys that do this mission day in, day out, multiple deployments. I mean, for us, again, I was a first lieutenant at the time, a lot of us were first lieutenants, there's both enlisted and officer, but you're pretty green, right? And you come in and, you know, I have someone like on the Delta side, George Fraser, four Purple Hearts, you know, multiple deployments, spent so much time sacrificing time away from family, you know, for our national security.

• 30:31Speaker 05

  And so it's almost like, it's a very deep respect for whether it's a Ranger Regiment, whether it's Delta, just because you're a bit in like awe of the amount of dedication that, you know, just cultural difference between the two. But overall, I had, you know, great experiences on target with both teams and felt very well utilized.

• 31:00Jack Murphy?

  So tell us about that, about like, were there any like memorable missions? I mean, either something memorable or wild happened or, you know, that stuck out for you as like a success of like, this is what the CST program can bring to the table?

• 31:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. So really easy, off the top of my head, one that comes to mind is, again, you're always looking for certain things that are going to help you find out if the guy you're looking for is either at the location you're at or not. And there was one mission, it was a joint mission we were doing with our Aussie partners, and it was their number one target. There was a green on blue attack, and so it was a, it was a big, big deal, and we went...

• 31:49Jack Murphy?

  That killed an Australian soldier.

• 31:50Speaker 05

  You what? Oh, you, oh, sorry. I thought you said you killed an Australian.

• 31:55Jack Murphy?

  No, no, no.

• 31:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 31:56Jack Murphy?

  The blue on green killed an Australian soldier.

• 31:58Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 31:59Jack Murphy?

  If I recall correctly.

• 32:00Speaker 05

  Correct.

• 32:00Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 32:00Speaker 05

  And so, this was a mission to get that individual. And we initially went to the wrong compound. And it was the women that came out of that compound that I was questioning that confirmed where that actual, where the person we were looking for lived. And then we were successful in killing that individual. So, you know,

• 32:29Speaker 05

  when we talk about not seeing the other half of that target building, you, you, you don't know what they're, what they may have observed.

• 32:36Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 32:36Speaker 05

  What they're willing to tell you. Maybe they don't want to tell you anything. It's not like every female out there wants to talk to you. Or maybe they're just as, you know, adversarial as their husbands or their brothers or, you know, what have you. But by not asking the question, you, you'll never know. And so, I think that's a, that's one that definitely comes to mind. I always like to highlight this one of Jenny. She redirected her, redirected her task force as well to a weapons cache that she learned about from a young, a young child on target. On the village stability operation side, there's a whole nother, you know, dynamic.

• 33:18Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 33:18Speaker 05

  Right? And one of the stories I remember from teammates was, they delivered a baby. Like, no shit, delivered a baby. And the, it was their last day before they were going to redeploy. And, you know, they had been ingratiating themselves with this local village and really made a lot of headway in terms of,

• 33:46Speaker 05

  you know, in the beginning, not being welcomed. And, you know, kind of at the end of their tour, not them as CSTs, but the US presence in that village. And by the end of their tour, you know, very much the villagers did not want them to leave. This one couple got stuck in a snowstorm. The CST and one of the ODA guys go out. They retrieve them from their vehicle, bring them back. At the time, I think the medics were like, hey, we got this. You guys can, you know. Be in the room, but you know, like, we can handle this. And there was no way that the, because of the conservative nature of the society, that there was going to be any man in that operating room, if you will, if you want to call it an operating room.

• 34:31Speaker 05

  And the CST and the, yeah, both CSTs successfully delivered the baby. The mother of the woman was also there and also helping.

• 34:46Jack Murphy?

  All in a day's work.

• 34:47Speaker 05

  All in a day's work. And then they redeployed. I'm like, what an incredible way. And the way they talk about it, though, is just so interesting because, you know, in war, you just see a lot of death and violence. But, you know, on that last day, you're bringing life into the world. And who knows? Had they been able to keep that baby alive in the middle of a snowstorm, broken down in the middle of nowhere? Maybe, but, you know, just kind of a really lasting thing to remember, you know, for them.

• 35:21Jack Murphy?

  I mean, I don't know what you have to compare this to, but did you notice that people on target, like the civilian population, responded differently when there were women on target with the American or allied force?

• 35:36Speaker 05

  Absolutely. I think the, and I know, like, the Israelis use this technique, right? And like rioting, you know, women can bring just the tensions down and kind of puts people a little bit more at ease. And not when we're in gear and helmet and don't look like a woman, but when, you know, you let your hair down or you're able to, you know, maybe take off your helmet once you're inside. And it's comforting. And it allows for our work to be done, the whole task force's work, to just be done more efficiently and effectively.

• 36:14Speaker 05

  One of the guys that I was with, you know, references, prior to the CST program, they'd have to have, like, you know, a few guys, like...

• 36:27Speaker 05

  Cordoning off the women and children and then, you know, they're screaming and crying and, and like, obviously that's manpower and just having, you know, the one CST on target with them, you know, is, is it, again, a force multiplier in that, bring the room at ease, you know, get the information, ensure that, you know, the security of the task force and, and allow the rest of the team to do, you know, what they're there for.

• 36:55Jack Murphy?

  I definitely recall being on a target in Iraq where we had her, and we had no CSTs or anything on that particular operation. I just remember exactly that, having to stand guard at the door and the room is filled with like maybe five women, like 25 kids. And they're all screaming.

• 37:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:15Jack Murphy?

  And you're just there like, uh, uh.

• 37:17Speaker 05

  I always remember we used to like come back and, you know, you kind of get back from your mission and you're like chatting all the other girls up at the other, you know, sites like, how many did you have today? It was like, who had like the most, you know, women and children that they had to deal with was always like a little game almost.

• 37:36Speaker 05

  I remember one, it was actually my last mission and it was very impactful for future things that, you know, I'm doing now. We went to a madrassa and so there were no women, but there were a bunch of young boys and, you know, did, did, did the thing, search question. And then at the end, one of the CST's roles was to engage with the like senior male on, on the target and essentially if there was anything broken or any damages, you know, we'd, we'd ensure that the right paperwork was, was provided so that they could work through that.

• 38:20Speaker 05

  And so in this madrassa, I go and I have this theological conversation with the Imam. And he's like,

• 38:27Jack Murphy?

  You're not supposed to go there.

• 38:29Speaker 05

  I wasn't trying to, but I wasn't trying to, but, but, you know, I'm giving him the paperwork, getting his thumb, thumb stamp on our, on our little sheet and he's like, do you believe in Jesus? And, you know, this is through the interpreter. And I was like, well, yes, I do. In my country, we believe in freedom of religion and, you know, and he goes on and he's like, you, eventually he's like, you know, you're an infidel. This war will never end. And I walked away back, you know, headed back to the. Bird and I'm just thinking of all those young boys lined up on the

• 39:01Jack Murphy?

  Hearing that every day.

• 39:01Speaker 05

  Mud wall, hearing that every day, not having access to any exposure to the outside world and thinking, holy smokes, we gotta like stop the the cycle. We've got education, the next generation, you know, we've got to invest more in that because otherwise we're not able to translate tactical success into operational strategic success. And I do think women play a large part in that, even in conservative societies, you know, their sons, their daughters. You know, when you have a woman that is educated or is able to influence that, you know, it takes a long time. It's, you know, generational change we're talking about here.

• 39:43Speaker 05

  But that was something that stuck with me. And again, having been in my last mission.

• 39:51Jack Murphy?

  Any others from that deployment that stick out for you that you'd like to talk about before we move on?

• 39:57Speaker 05

  No, I think, yeah, those are some of the main ones.

• 40:01Jack Murphy?

  And so now we're entering in sort of like an interesting period of time, I feel like, for your career. Because as we had talked about, CST program was a temporary duty assignment. Now you're finished with that TDY assignment and you're going back to the Signal Corps, do your company commander time. You've gotten a taste of the special ops stuff, but there's still not like necessarily a clear pathway maybe for women to serve in those positions. And of course, the federal law hadn't been repealed yet that allowed women into combat positions at that time.

• 40:36Speaker 05

  Right. For, when I finished CST, so 2013 redeployed, and again, went back to, like you mentioned, my same Signal Corps unit, took a company command position at another conventional Signal unit. And some of the CSTs that came back from our rotation went to Ranger School. It was right when Ranger School was opening for women. And

• 41:07Speaker 05

  No one was switching branches, though. At that point, you know, it's the younger generation that's now commissioning, or, you know, from the enlisted side, like, going into those, going to Ranger School, or branching Combat Arms. So for me, and quite honestly, I didn't, I would have loved to go to Ranger School. I didn't have a desire to be in infantry, but I did have a desire to continue to serve in the special operations community and kind of work in the human, you know, domain. And, you know, I'm grateful to the CST program for being that initial exposure and finding a pathway eventually

• 41:52Speaker 05

  to get back into the special operations world after my company command time.

• 41:59Jack Murphy?

  What was that like for you? I mean, you went on to, you did find your way back into special operations through sort of a unique role. But how did, I'm also, and people ask us this all the time because they're thinking about joining the military. I mean, how did this opportunity come about for you? How did you hear about it? How did you get the ball rolling on that?

• 42:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I heard about it during CST. Like, I just knew, hey, there's other things out there. And a lot of times, they're not known until, you know, for officers, like, after you do your company command, your key developmental time. You know, it might be a little different on the enlisted side, but those different units that are out there are looking for more experience prior, before, you know, they bring you into, you know, various pipelines. So for me, I always knew after CST, like, there was something else out there. But I wanted to do company command. I wanted to, you know...

• 43:07Speaker 05

  Gain a little bit more experience. Um, just, you know, basic leadership one-on-one experience. And that does translate and it goes a long way when you, you know, you come into um, these elite units and, and you have a little bit of that under your belt. And it's a difficult thing because a lot of women that want to do these, a lot of these cool things, want to do it before, you know, you're juggling life plans.

• 43:33Jack Murphy?

  Sure.

• 43:34Speaker 05

  You're juggling all of this other stuff. So you're like, I want to do it now when I'm in the best shape of my life. And, um, you know, sometimes just the way that these pipelines work, you, you gotta,

• 43:46Speaker 05

  it takes a little bit more, more time.

• 43:49Jack Murphy?

  Can you tell us a little bit about, uh, I mean, if you can, about like the assessment and selection, uh, at that point?

• 43:56Speaker 05

  Um, yeah, definitely a longer, um, you know, you put your packet in, they'll do, um, you know, it's your initial review. Once you get kind of through that, there's, um, um, uh, you'll get your invite. It's a much longer selection. It was a longer selection than CST, you know, selection. And for, um, for me, again, as a Signal Corps officer, um, you know, I, I go back to, I wanted to kind of serve in the human domain. So I wanted to do whatever the Green Berets and the Ranger guys were, were doing. Um, and so that's kind of what I had, um, you know, requested through the recruiters.

• 44:40Speaker 05

  And, you know, Special Operations has, has recruiters everywhere. And, um, for anyone that is out there like interested, you know, sometimes you just gotta, you know, find, find those, find those keynotes and start just asking questions. And a lot of times, information is ambiguous. You know, you get those blast emails, just like CST where it's like, we're looking for this, um, you know, age group or this, this rank. And, um, you kind of got to take a, take a chance, a little leap of faith, if you will, um, but it's.

• 45:16Speaker 05

  You know, and you can kind of figure it out as you go, but.

• 45:19Jack Murphy?

  Well, first off, I'd say that's cool that they let you move from a signals background to a human background. It seems like they would want you to, you know, by the time you're a, you know, oh, three company command time, like you're kind of in this one role or another, but they let you move over.

• 45:38Speaker 05

  Yes. And I think part of that is, you know, I like to talk, you know, big picture wise, when we think about CST or we think about other unique ways that women serve and have been serving in special operations for well before CST. I mean, I always, you know, I read George Washington's Secret Six, the book about his, the.

• 46:05Speaker 06

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 46:48Speaker 06

  Common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or fluke-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extenture. Learn more at extenture.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 47:05Speaker 07

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 47:34Speaker 05

  Over spy ring, right? There's a female spy in that, you know, ring. So like women have been serving in unique capacities since the.

• 47:44Speaker 05

  Beginning of our, you know, military origins. And I think there's just something to point out. There's a difference in women integration and integrating into combat arms units. Then integrating into a special operations unit where you're leveraging gender as a tool. And for me, because of my CST experience, I was always very interested in what can I bring to the table? In that, you kind of leveraging that and leveraging that as a tool.

• 48:27Jack Murphy?

  I mean, can you unpack that a little bit more for the people who are listening and maybe not familiar? So, I mean, I think you're trying to differentiate between the people who go to like, like, there's been at least one woman that has graduated from the special forces assessment and selection and serves in special forces now. And so those opportunities are out there now to go through that pipeline. But then there are also these like support roles, intelligence roles, etc.

• 48:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, absolutely. For the integration side of things, it's it's simple. Obviously, there's a standard that you have to achieve to do infantry, to go SF, to go into Ranger Regiment. And when you're going through that pipeline, you're essentially integrating on a team and you're colorblind, you're genderblind. You're the door kicker, you're applying to do the job.

• 49:26Jack Murphy?

  That everyone else is doing.

• 49:27Speaker 05

  That everyone else is doing. That is very different than, and I'll go back to the CST example, than, hey, you're assessing and selecting and being trained to not be the door kicker, but to engage with women and children in a village or on a target. And as a, as an institution, for us to...

• 49:54Speaker 05

  Reach our greatest potential, I think we need to be able to do, to do both.

• 50:01Jack Murphy?

  How do you think the military is doing with that? Integration and also the, the other side of it as well?

• 50:08Speaker 05

  I think we conflate the two a lot.

• 50:12Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 50:12Speaker 05

  And I, I think they should be seen as two kind of distinct efforts. And there is, the Women, Peace and Security Act, which is interesting because I didn't really learn about it until well into my career, well after the CST program. But it was passed under the, the Trump administration and it's, it is informed by a UN security resolution that says, hey, when, when women are involved in decision-making and involved in the, you know, a greater role in the prevention, management and resolution of conflict, we have better results.

• 50:54Speaker 05

  And I think the CST program is the embodiment of that. You know, so the DOD actually has to, has to implement the Women, Peace and Security Act, you know, by law, and so they have an implementation plan. And part of that is the purposeful employment of women. And that can be integration or it can be, you know, again, gender as a tool. Think about all the female partner forces that are out there. So foreign internal defense, security assistance, like those are all, you know, or natural special operations activities.

• 51:36Speaker 05

  And if we just apply that to women as much as we do men, we can.

• 51:45Speaker 05

  Increase our capacity building. We can increase our placement and access.

• 51:52Speaker 05

  And the Afghan female tactical platoon that the CST is trained, you know, that's a force multiplier for the Afghan army. And

• 52:05Speaker 05

  they were slowly but surely kind of creating societal change as well as, you know, in the military by having women in those roles. Slowly kind of creating kind of more pro-democratic, you know, values. So there's, there's a lot of benefit to

• 52:27Speaker 05

  applying that the Women Peace and Security Act in defense

• 52:34Speaker 05

  in our everyday, you know, operations.

• 52:37Jack Murphy?

  I remember years ago, speaking to a former special forces group commander, old school guy, Cold Warrior, 1970s, you know. And I remember him telling me then, he was like, we have got to figure out a way to get women on ODAs. Like, I don't know, maybe they can't necessarily be Green Berets per se, but we got to figure out a way to get them there because of exactly what the things you were mentioning.

• 53:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I think my, my thing is, hey, if a, if a woman wants to go be a Ranger, go on ODA, and she can meet the standard.

• 53:15Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, she has every right to wear that, wear the hat.

• 53:17Speaker 05

  Every, every right to be there.

• 53:21Speaker 05

  And on the, on the flip side of that, we should be trying to create opportunities for women to also be employed in ways that are not the same, but still

• 53:35Speaker 05

  again, purposeful.

• 53:36Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 53:36Speaker 05

  And what they can bring to the, to the table.

• 53:38Jack Murphy?

  Directed sort of niche capabilities.

• 53:41Speaker 05

  Yes, absolutely.

• 53:45Jack Murphy?

  So, okay, you go through this assessment program. Can you tell us about the training you went through afterwards as you got prepared for this position?

• 53:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, I would say primarily different than CST in that CST was very focused on Afghanistan, focused on a lot more tactical.

• 54:16Jack Murphy?

  What to do on target.

• 54:19Speaker 05

  Right, right. And this is just a very different mission, so everything related to reconnaissance is really more the focus of the training.

• 54:33Jack Murphy?

  So, like, I'm fishing for information. I know, like, do you get to do anything cool, wearing disguises, wearing local garb? I mean, come on.

• 54:46Speaker 05

  I'll say one of the times that I was, you know, given a task, I made myself look like a pregnant woman. And it worked. It was great. So that was a fun, that was a fun way to get creative.

• 55:11Jack Murphy?

  Did you have to, like, improvise with some pillows, or did they actually have the, like, rubber suit?

• 55:15Speaker 05

  Oh, I had pillows. I had pillows. I used my, yeah, I took some pillows from my Aunt Steph's guest room, and that's what I was staying with at the time. I'm sure she had weird questions about what I was, what I was up to.

• 55:28Jack Murphy?

  What was the most challenging part of the training?

• 55:37Speaker 05

  I think it's just being able to

• 55:41Speaker 05

  quickly react to new information. You know, you go with your gut a little bit,

• 55:50Speaker 05

  but you've got to trust your gut. You've just got to make a decision. Ultimately, there's going to be things pulling you left and right.

• 55:58Speaker 05

  But you can't be paralyzed.

• 56:02Jack Murphy?

  Right, right.

• 56:03Speaker 05

  Right, so make it move forward. If it's the wrong decision, you know, you can adjust, adapt, but don't get caught in paralysis.

• 56:12Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, yeah. They say that, you know, a bad decision is still better than no decision a lot of times.

• 56:17Speaker 05

  Right, right.

• 56:17Jack Murphy?

  Yeah. Okay, so then you move on. You take this position as an operations officer assigned to a task force, start getting deployed overseas. I mean, so this is the dream job, right?

• 56:32Speaker 05

  Yes. I mean, and I've been super fortunate with all the different assignments and the teams that I've been, you know, privileged to work with. It's very, very cool to be forward deployed in a, as an operations officer, being able to kind of

• 56:58Speaker 05

  utilize various capabilities and integrate them all for, you know, to achieve whatever effect that you're, you know, you're looking to achieve.

• 57:10Speaker 05

  And it's an organization where

• 57:15Speaker 05

  male, female, doesn't matter. It's, hey, do you, have you been trained?

• 57:22Speaker 05

  Again, your competence, your character competence commitment are what, you know, allow you to serve in those positions.

• 57:33Jack Murphy?

  Any, from that time period, are there any, like, challenging moments that you can share?

• 57:40Speaker 05

  Trying to think what might be.

• 57:46Jack Murphy?

  We can accept vague, some vagueness in the answer, of course.

• 57:57Speaker 05

  I don't know if anything really comes to mind.

• 58:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, let me, let me think on that and I'll come back to it maybe.

• 58:12Jack Murphy?

  Um, and so I guess the other part of this role is that, you know, you had mentioned was that the CST was a publicly known program. But there are these others out there, other units out there that utilize women in specialized roles that are not readily visible to the public.

• 58:33Speaker 05

  Well, there, yeah, I would say the CST program is easy, you know, it's out there. It's, you can talk about it, you can use that as an example to show the value of that women can bring to the table.

• 58:53Speaker 05

  In terms of, again, it was an operational imperative that, that drove the program in the first, in the first place. But I think the key thing to note, and it's seen throughout history, is that, you know, women have been playing a role in unique capacities, again, since, you know, the origins of our, our military. And there are opportunities out there and, you know, you just, you know, work through your, your, your career to, you know, find them.

• 59:29Jack Murphy?

  And you spent 10 years on this special forces or special operations assignment.

• 59:37Jack Murphy?

  And then transferred over to the reserves and, I mean, I'm always interested, and I think everyone has a story a little bit different. Like, what made you decide to leave and go on to sort of the next chapter in your life?

• 59:51Speaker 05

  For me, it was really, well, two things, I'd say, personal, personal decision. So I got married and it was, you know, that time, you know, a move went from, or, you know, moved down to Tampa, Florida. At the same time, I was really invested in a couple of other projects that I had started.

• 1:00:19Speaker 05

  Twenty, you know, twenty twenty, twenty twenty one time period. And I wanted to invest, um, you know, a lot of energy in into those into those projects.

• 1:00:30Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, you were busy.

• 1:00:31Speaker 05

  Very busy, juggling a lot.

• 1:00:33Jack Murphy?

  So you transfer over in the reserves, move down to Tampa. Um, and then you mentioned around twenty twenty one timeframe, uh, this documentary project. Like, how how does that enter into your mind? Because you have spent a career largely kind of hidden behind the veil, so to speak, you know? And the the television shows would say in the shadows or something, something corny like that. Um, but I mean, to some extent, sure. Uh, what made you decide to do a documentary, do something that's very like public facing?

• 1:01:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, very different. Um, I the origin, um, for the documentary really came as a. I wanted to memorialize and honor, um, Jenny and the other women that participated in the CST program. Ashley White was killed in, um, two thousand and eleven. Uh, she was the first CST that was, uh, killed in action. And, um, so it was just meant to be originally meant to be like a. I had enough money in my pocket to pay for fifteen minutes. You know, my my cousin was dating a filmmaker at the time, or still is. And, um, Will AG and Dulcinea Productions, you know, took it on. They were like, yeah, let's let's do it. So sent Will out to San Diego where Jenny is buried.

• 1:01:50Speaker 05

  Uh, she's buried in Rosecrans National Cemetery. And, um, he did the first few interviews and just.

• 1:01:59Jack Murphy?

  Wow.

• 1:01:59Speaker 05

  Immediately realized that this was a much larger story that needed to be told. Um, and so, yeah, four plus years, five years later, almost. We're finally about to, you know, release the the docu-series this, uh, Saturday, February fifteenth. Um, but it's been a it's been a long, um, effort. Uh, over seventeen terabytes of of film. Um, and of course, we started.

• 1:02:28Speaker 05

  Before the evacuation from Afghanistan, we actually were filming in Kandahar when Kandahar fell to the Taliban.

• 1:02:40Jack Murphy?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:02:41Speaker 05

  Yeah. And Guerrera, the name is Female Warrior, and it's in honor of Jenny. You know, simultaneously to standing up Guerrera or initiating this, the women of this community, we all came together and we also stood up a nonprofit, Altru. And Altru is meant to unite warriors, to lead, to inspire, you know, the next generation. And so to understand Guerrera, you kind of have to understand Altru. Our thought process was get these incredible role models and their stories and the values that they embody and the sacrifices of our fallen teammates,

• 1:03:24Speaker 05

  you know, out to the next generation and the masses. And so Will has done a beautiful job of, in my eyes, bringing those role models, you know, to the big screen.

• 1:03:36Jack Murphy?

  And you acted as sort of like producer?

• 1:03:39Speaker 05

  Executive producer.

• 1:03:40Jack Murphy?

  Gotcha.

• 1:03:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Jack Murphy?

  So you were like connecting him with the people to go interview?

• 1:03:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's all, yeah. Complete creative vision and license is all him. And again, he's a phenomenal... I knew when I met him, the work that he had done previously, that he was the right person, you know, for the job. He always, you know, likes to tell that story of kind of the underdog and the human spirit. And I knew that it would...

• 1:04:10Speaker 06

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extentur, Depomocamab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extentur is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extentur is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. A lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 1:04:53Speaker 06

  Common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or fluke-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at Extensure.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

• 1:05:10Speaker 00

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• 1:05:38Speaker 05

  Come out the way that, you know, we intended.

• 1:05:42Jack Murphy?

  And you said it also has like, Guerrera has an interesting sort of like story arc to it, like it's not just about the CST program. It's sort of from the CST program to today.

• 1:05:52Speaker 05

  Yes, and part of that is, you know, the CST program helped inform, you know, what happened, you know, the lifting of the combat arms.

• 1:06:03Jack Murphy?

  What year was it shut down?

• 1:06:05Speaker 05

  2021. So when we left Afghanistan was when the program completely shut down. But 2017-ish was kind of when, you know, we were going out on target less and it became towards the latter part of the program. Yeah, primarily focused on training the female tactical platoon. And Ranger Regiment was very much still, you know, involved in that as well. But it does, it's really a story of the evolution of, you know, kind of a woman's role in the war throughout the GWAT.

• 1:06:44Speaker 05

  But, but much, much more than that in that it's a story of the male characters just as much as it is the women characters and the unity that, and the teamwork and the camaraderie that exists on these teams. And what draws. Men and women to service? And what are those things that, you know, regardless of our background, gender, race, religion, like what draws us to do these things?

• 1:07:22Jack Murphy?

  Just out of curiosity, does it also touch on the female engagement teams at all that the Marine Corps had?

• 1:07:28Speaker 05

  We don't, and that is both the female engagement teams and, again, like I mentioned, the other programs that have existed for a long time are not a core part of the story, but absolutely, I hope that this brings a light to other stories like it and can be a platform that, you know, enables continued spotlight on a lot of these really awesome programs and women.

• 1:08:08Jack Murphy?

  And so the documentary is Guerrera, coming out. It'll be out again, when most of you are listening to this, it'll already be available on Amazon, so you can go and check it out. Three-part series?

• 1:08:18Speaker 05

  Three-part series.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Available everywhere, Amazon, Google, right? iTunes in a couple of weeks.

• 1:08:25Speaker 05

  It'll be on Apple TV, but a little later. So, Amazon, YouTube and Google are

• 1:08:34Speaker 05

  ready to watch on February 15th.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll have a link in the description in the show.

• 1:08:39Jack Murphy?

  So, this is like the part of the interview where I have to make that famous caveat that never holds true. I don't mean to get political, but, we don't have to get political, but I do want to ask you that, you know, it seems like this issue is coming back up into the public consciousness again about women serving in combat. What is the appropriate role for women in the military? What do you make of that debate and that we're sort of like re-litigating it again years later?

• 1:09:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think it's funny because we, I've been asked a lot, was this purposefully timed?

• 1:09:15Speaker 05

  You know, with, with, um, uh,

• 1:09:19Speaker 05

  the SecDef and, and, and comments made, I'm like, absolutely not. This was, we finished the trailer for Guerrera and, um, you know, a couple of years ago. It just happens to be, yes, very much.

• 1:09:28Jack Murphy?

  Distribution takes a long, long time. Oh, I know.

• 1:09:31Speaker 05

  Very much, um, you know, uh, relevant, um, when we thought, hey, this is a mute point, but it's, you know, again, like you said, kind of being, um, relitigated. I, I like to think of it as, uh, an opportunity to inform. I think the story speaks for itself and I hope that, um, I mean, I hope the SecDef watches it.

• 1:09:58Speaker 05

  And, and again, it comes back to like, the, the characters in the, um, on screen, there, there's Republicans, there's Democrats, there, you know, all, all different backgrounds. And there are a couple of things that, you know, we all, you know, agree on. We all want high standards. We all want the opportunity, maybe the opportunity to fail, sure, but still, you know, keep that opportunity open. And, um, I think that the, uh,

• 1:10:28Speaker 05

  like I said, the, the, the story will, you know, speak for itself and hopefully be, uh, and a, a platform to launch, you know, rich discourse, um, from, as these kind of topics kind of come, come up again.

• 1:10:43Jack Murphy?

  Do you want to tell us a little bit about, you know, I think you said there were like 16 primary interviews, primary characters that go through this series. You want to tell us a little bit about like some of these other women and like sort of what their backgrounds are and?

• 1:10:56Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, I'd love to. I mean, this is, I mean, this is why I, you know, why I want to do it. Like the, these women and, and, um, our male counterparts are, are incredible. And my goal is to get them, you know, show their stories to, you know, the world. And, um, so a few of the characters, um...

• 1:11:18Speaker 05

  CST, a lot of CSTs of course, but also we have, you know, Chris Kreis, first Ranger School graduate. We have Pashtun Adurani, who is a founder of Learn Afghanistan, an activist who, you know, gives a perspective of a woman in Afghanistan, you know, throughout the war. You have Manaz Akbari, who is the commander of the Female Tactical Platoon. You know, she talks, you know, about, you know, what it was like for her to be able to wear a uniform and, you know, defend her, you know, her country.

• 1:11:58Speaker 05

  The CSTs come, you know, again, from every different MOS. There's military police, there's nurses, there's intel engineers. You know, Jenny, Jenny was a nurse.

• 1:12:12Speaker 05

  And she, you know, like, like, kind of the rest of us, was just looking to do something a little, a little closer to the fight. And, you know, volunteered and did exceptionally well. And didn't expect to be on the direct action side, actually. And, because it wasn't, that was the first time in 2013, where in our cohort, that they actually had nurses go on the direct action side. So, yeah, a whole great, great, great crew, or cast. Some of the, some of the male counterparts are involved.

• 1:12:55Speaker 05

  You have Ranger, Rangers in the, in the series.

• 1:13:00Speaker 05

  SF. We don't have any Navy SEALs.

• 1:13:04Jack Murphy?

  That's okay. They've got enough publicity.

• 1:13:06Speaker 05

  But, um, but yeah, like I said, all different backgrounds. And one of the coolest things, I think, is that you just see, like,

• 1:13:15Speaker 05

  There's, when you have that kind of shared purpose and mission,

• 1:13:21Speaker 05

  you're all teammates first, you know, before anything else.

• 1:13:25Jack Murphy?

  You feel like that's kind of like on a personal level, also sort of like turning the page on, you know, this sort of phase of your life, like you're able to tell the story. It must feel good to feel like that chapter is complete, right?

• 1:13:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, it does. And for me, I do hope it's the beginning of more. And it's meant to be a memorial and it's meant to inspire, you know, the next generation. And so the profits from Guerrera will be reinvested into All True and All True's mission. And again, that is what allows us to continue to live the legacy of Jenny Moreno, of Ashley White, of Shannon Kent, of all the women who have sacrificed

• 1:14:14Speaker 05

  and our male counterparts, so.

• 1:14:17Jack Murphy?

  And what does All True do? I mean, I know you mentioned it, it's a not-for-profit, but what do you guys actually do?

• 1:14:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, primarily, we take role models. A lot of them are women from the special operations community, but also men. And we engage with the next generation. And so we'll go to universities, we'll go to ROTC units, we'll go to high schools.

• 1:14:40Speaker 05

  And we share these stories of sacrifice, of unity, of teamwork, to try and instill a sense of self-determination and service. And service doesn't have to come in a uniform. You know, you can serve in a lot of different ways. But, you know, we'd like to see the, our audience kind of find, you know, various values that they, you know, resonate with, that they see, whether in person, when we're doing these events, or again, on screen, you know, through Guerrera, and embody those in their own, you know, authentic, authentic way.

• 1:15:23Jack Murphy?

  Super cool.

• 1:15:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:15:26Jack Murphy?

  So, anything else that I failed to ask that you'd like to talk about?

• 1:15:31Speaker 05

  No, I think you've covered it. This was, thank you for, for, um, helping us, yeah, share, share the story and share Guerrero.

• 1:15:39Jack Murphy?

  We're happy to. I mean, we've had a couple CSTs on the show before, now that I think about it.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, we had, uh, Marine Lines, uh, Kate.

• 1:15:48Jack Murphy?

  Kate, uh, Kate from Zero Blog Thirty.

• 1:15:52Speaker 05

  Oh, okay. Nice, nice.

• 1:15:54Jack Murphy?

  And, uh, and Sam, Sam Wan, too.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Sam Wan, and then we had another.

• 1:15:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:58Speaker 05

  Sam's great, yeah.

• 1:16:00Jack Murphy?

  Um, but, you know, and I appreciate you coming on the show and telling your story and sharing the story of all of these other folks, all of your teammates. It's, uh, it's great, and I, I hope people will go and check out the documentary. I'm gonna watch it probably next week. Um, and, uh, I don't know, anything else that we need to bring up?

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  Oh, we got a couple of questions.

• 1:16:20Jack Murphy?

  Okay, sure.

• 1:16:21Speaker 02

  M. Corbin asks, "Do you have any pet peeves about how women are portraying combat in mass media?"

• 1:16:30Speaker 05

  We talked about that earlier. Um, so, I don't think too hard about it, because I feel like Hollywood is always gonna sensationalize things, you know? Um, but, there are, you know, there are things that I'm like, "Oh, that's not completely, you know, you know, accurate," or... But again, I, I just go back to, "Hey, it, it's Hollywood and, um, it's entertainment."

• 1:16:57Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:16:58Speaker 05

  Right, so it's kinda meant to be a little bit sultry, or a little bit, you know?

• 1:17:03Jack Murphy?

  A little more spicy than maybe it would have been, yeah.

• 1:17:06Speaker 05

  What's, what I, what I hope is Guerrero's like, "Hey, it's, it's all real and it's actually spicy." It, it, it's spicy, without, you know, without the extra, um, sultry, so, um... Yeah, I, I was saying earlier, you know, G.I. Jane is one of the ones that a lot of us, um, in the community are like, "Oh, that was the movie that, you know, um, you know, left an impact," or, or whatnot. But, a lot of the shows I think out today are, are, are fun to watch.

• 1:17:33Jack Murphy?

  Right.

• 1:17:34Speaker 05

  You know, I enjoy watching.

• 1:17:35Jack Murphy?

  And that's probably the right way to think about them.

• 1:17:36Speaker 05

  I made my husband sit and watch Lioness, you know, and, you know, um, you know, there's, there's, um... Like I said, there, it's Hollywood, so I don't have too many expectations of making it like, super accurate.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  One more question from V. Did you ever feel like your male coworkers were overprotective of you?

• 1:17:56Speaker 05

  Um, there was one mission.

• 1:18:00Speaker 05

  Um, there was one mission, I, I noticed that, but for the most part, um, no, I think you're, you know, everyone's just really focused on their, on their job. That one mission was, um, there weren't any, um, women and children o- on the target and everyone was posting up, pulling security or, um, some of us had our weapons directed into a courtyard and I was one of those people and, um, my teammate was like, "Get down," you know, basically like, pushed me down so that I wasn't, um, you know. Basically, I was kneeling then, uh, behind the mud wall versus, um, you know, helping provide.

• 1:18:45Jack Murphy?

  He didn't want you on the front line, so to speak, yeah.

• 1:18:48Speaker 05

  Um, so, that, that I think, again, what was, was a, you know, protective kind of reaction. Um, doesn't upset me or anything, you know, it doesn't.

• 1:18:58Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, he didn't mean it anymore.

• 1:18:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, it wasn't malicious or anything like that, but, um, um, I think for the most part, yeah, everyone's there, very focused on, on their job and it wasn't, besides that one time, I didn't have any other incidences like that.

• 1:19:15Jack Murphy?

  Anything else, Steve?

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, one more from Hav- Havik. Uh, during the ten years of your special op stuff, did Jessica get a chance to work with the YPJ by any chance?

• 1:19:26Jack Murphy?

  That's a good question.

• 1:19:27Speaker 05

  I didn't, but, um, that's a great example of another, um,

• 1:19:33Speaker 05

  way to build partner force capacity. Um, and, uh, Daughters of Kobani, I don't know if you've read that book, but, um, Gail LeMond, who wrote Ashley's War about.

• 1:19:54Speaker 06

  It may be time to try something else. Extensor is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensor is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection. Common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flulike symptoms, joint pain, or sore throat may occur.

• 1:20:37Speaker 06

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• 1:20:47Speaker 07

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• 1:21:16Speaker 05

  Ashley White, who was killed in 2011, wrote Daughters of Kobani, and it is a fantastic story of the YPJ, if anyone wants to read about that.

• 1:21:26Jack Murphy?

  I read recently a novel called Rosa's Story by Till. We had him on the show. I can't remember his last name, unfortunately. But it's a, he wrote a novel. He was over there fighting with the YPG, so he met a lot of these people. And he wrote a novel about a teenage girl in Sinjar when ISIS comes and massacres the place. And the girl joins the YPJ as a refugee. And so it's telling her story through this battle against ISIS. And, I mean, he just has very unique insights and really captured that as they start working with the American Special Operations community and doing the dam operation.

• 1:22:11Jack Murphy?

  It's, it was a good book. I'll forward you the information.

• 1:22:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, I would love to read it. Yeah, yeah, please.

• 1:22:17Jack Murphy?

  So I think that's all we got. Thank you, everyone, for joining us tonight. Please check us out on Patreon if you haven't and subscribe to this show. And Eyes On for $5 a month, get all episodes ad-free. We really appreciate it. And if you subscribe for $10, we'll send you the patch, too. So, and there's the new merch shop. You can check out the links down in the description. There's also going to be links down in the description for Ultru, for Guerrero, and anything else I'm forgetting, Dee?

• 1:22:49Jack Murphy?

  No. Okay. I think you got it. Cool.

• 1:22:53Jack Murphy?

  My book is out. That's fun. Thank you, everyone, who read it and reviewed it. Appreciate it.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  I got one more. Guys, go to the Eyes On channel and hit subscribe on that subscribe button because we have a separate YouTube channel for Eyes On. Please. Thank you.

• 1:23:10Jack Murphy?

  Okay.

• 1:23:11Speaker 06

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture. Depamocumab ULAa. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection,

• 1:23:56Speaker 06

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• 1:24:42Jack Murphy?

  That's a show. All good?

• 1:24:43Speaker 05

  All good.

• 1:24:44Jack Murphy?

  All right. We'll see everyone next time. Thank you, everyone.

• 1:24:48Speaker 06

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extenture is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extenture is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection, common cold, sinus infection,

• 1:25:33Speaker 06

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  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extenture, Depamocumab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting... It may be time to try something else. Extensure is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensure is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose, every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 1:27:09Speaker 06

  Common cold, sinus infection, inflammation in the nose, flu or flu-like symptoms, joint pain or sore throat may occur. Carry on with fewer attacks and ask your doctor about Extensure. Learn more at Extensure.com or call 1-833-393-3678.

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