Glenn Loury: Ousted for Opposing Middle Eastern Wars, MLK Files, & the One Thing Malcolm X Got Right

For decades, conservative think tanks celebrated and supported black economist Glenn Loury. Then he expressed an unauthorized opinion on the Middle East and they dropped him in a second. (00:00) Introduction (01:13) Does Critical Thinking Still Exist in American Universities? (16:06) How Has MIT Changed? (21:29) Why Don’t We Debate Economics Anymore? (35:26) Was the Civil Rights Movement Good for Black Americans? (49:26) The One Thing Malcolm X Got Right Paid partnerships with: PreBorn: To donate please dial pound two-fifty and say keyword "BABY" or visit https://preborn.com/TUCKER Cozy Earth: https://CozyEarth.com/Tucker code TUCKER Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:21Speaker 01

  Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate for three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  And I said, what has been proceeding there in Gaza is a collective punishment that I don't think is justified. And I got notified the next day the Manhattan Institute was discontinuing its relationship with me as a senior fellow.

• 0:43Tucker Carlson?

  If you'd said that about the United States, would you have gotten the same reaction?

• 0:47Speaker 02

  Ah, good question.

• 0:48Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think you've been bamboozled?

• 0:50Speaker 02

  Are we really going to go to war with Iran and turn the world economy upside down? Is it really Jim Crow 2.0 if they want to ask for a driver's license before you cast a ballot in Georgia?

• 1:01Tucker Carlson?

  I watched a couple of Malcolm X speeches, and it was like a totally different person from the one I was presented in high school. And I was like, well, why isn't this guy much more famous than he is now? One of the speeches, he goes off after white liberals and he's like, you know, whites are bad, whites are a problem. But the real problem is white liberals. I was like, you call Malcolm X. It almost feels like his message has been suppressed a little bit, maybe.

• 1:43Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you, Professor, for coming. So you just, you told me last night at dinner that you just, after about 50 years, taught your last course at Brown. You just left Brown.

• 1:54Tucker Carlson?

  Big picture question first. You've taught for so long. How has it changed? You've taught at, you know, the most prestigious universities in the world. How have the schools changed? How have the students changed? Do you leave more hopeful or more concerned?

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Ah, big question.

• 2:13Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, that's a big, that's a big question. I'll admit it.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Well, I graduated high school 60 years ago.

• 2:20Tucker Carlson?

  Whoa.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  And, uh, John Marshall Harland High School, public school in Chicago.

• 2:26Tucker Carlson?

  How is it now?

• 2:28Speaker 02

  I don't know, uh, to be honest with you. Um, I know that the community that it houses, it has, um, gone into decline and it's become a part of the South Side problematic.

• 2:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Uh, which is Chicago with the violence and so on. Um, it was a modest, working upper, working lower middle class, uh, community. And when I was at that school, it was integrated. Uh, there were 30 or 40% of the student body was white. I'm sure it's all black now and has been for some time. But I've lost touch with, uh, with what's going on back there. Uh, but I'm just saying, I've been around for a long time.

• 3:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, it's a long time.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  So I remember as I, uh, did my undergraduate at Northwestern University, graduated in 1972. The intensity of the intellectual experience of coming to the university. I remember encountering the German language. I, I remember studying mathematics and economics and philosophy and politics. And I remember books and I remember there being a certain devotion to the life of the mind.

• 3:47Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  I don't know that we've lost that, but it's, I think, less intense for our students today. Uh, than it was, uh, when I was in, when I was in college. It was the shadow of the Second World War. It was still only, you know, 25 years after the end of the conflict. Uh, that had, uh, I think its effect, it was the Vietnam era and that had its effect. But even though it was the Vietnam era, it wasn't in my experience as political, uh, as I see the university has become today.

• 4:26Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, so right at the, I mean, there are probably, you got to campus in 1968?

• 4:31Speaker 02

  I got to campus in 1970 at Northwestern. I started out at the Illinois Institute of Technology in 1965. I dropped out. I attended a community college for a couple of years and then I re-enrolled at a major university as a scholarship student in 1970, graduated in 1972.

• 4:53Tucker Carlson?

  So there were Vietnam War protests going on on campuses all over the country?

• 4:57Speaker 02

  There were.

• 4:58Tucker Carlson?

  And, but it was still, you think, less political than it is now?

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, frankly, I do. First of all, not everybody was a protester or enmeshed in the ethos of protest. Some of us were just trying to get to class. In my own case, I was a full-time employee at a printing plant and a young father with a wife and two children, even as I was taking classes at Northwestern. My case is very unusual. I didn't really have time to protest. But it wasn't even for the other students. It wasn't all consuming. There were intense, engaged protest students, but there were also kids just going about their business.

• 5:44Tucker Carlson?

  What, not to sidetrack the conversation, but what were you doing at the printing plant? What was your job?

• 5:49Speaker 02

  I was a clerk. They called me a timekeeper and a bonus estimator. We had these decks of IBM punch cards and I would write on each one the employee's name, the number of hours they spent on what task, and sometimes I'd have to estimate whether or not their productivity count entitled them to bonus payment. I'd take, at the end of the shift, my deck of IBM punch cards to the offices where the young women would keep punching them up and then they would go into the process of the mainframe computer congestion. It was pretty antiquated,

• 6:31Speaker 02

  but that's how we kept track of the accounting. So I was, I was a clerk.

• 6:36Tucker Carlson?

  What did they print at the plant?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Everything. This was R R Donnelly and Sons, a big printing concern. Lakeside Press is what they call the campus. Couple of miles, three miles south of the loop on the lakefront in Chicago. Maybe a dozen or so factory style buildings. Railroad tracks running alongside huge rolls of printing paper. These monstrous machines which were the presses. Craftsman everywhere from the people who ran the presses to the people who engraved the plates to the people who cultivated the photographs that had to be made into images. They printed Time Magazine, Life Magazine, Sports Illustrated, Newsweek.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  They printed telephone books. They printed Sears catalogs.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  And it was a massive operation.

• 7:30Tucker Carlson?

  So it was like the size of a steel plant, just like a whole campus, you said?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  It was a dozen buildings or so spread out over a mile along the lakefront. Maybe, maybe three quarters of a mile.

• 7:40Tucker Carlson?

  Is it still there?

• 7:42Speaker 02

  I think it's condos now.

• 7:44Tucker Carlson?

  Of course it is.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  And in fact, the guys that, you know, the union guys who I worked with, I wasn't in the union. I was a clerk. Could see it coming. They could see the jobs going to South Carolina and then going to Southeast Asia. They didn't see the technology revolution coming that made a lot of what they were doing obsolete. But they knew that their days were numbered.

• 8:06Tucker Carlson?

  And they said that out loud?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:10Tucker Carlson?

  Wow. Were they mad about it?

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And to a certain extent resigned.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  But, you know, the fight the good fight, you know, resist. But the wheel was turning.

• 8:27Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing. So you get to campus, you're married with two kids, you're working in a printing plant. And you probably don't have time to like throw tear gas on the quad.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Now, I talk about this in my memoir that came out last year, Late Admissions: Confessions of a Black Conservative. I review the bidding of my life and. Yeah, I, I tell a story. So I'm at the community college before getting to Northwestern. The year is 1970, the spring of 1970, the strike. The incursion into Cambodia and the strike.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  And I'm taking calculus and I'm loving it. And there's an exam coming.

• 9:10Tucker Carlson?

  You loved calculus?

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Pardon? I loved calculus. Yeah, I was a math major and you know calculus and trigonometry and abstract algebra and you know, differential equations.

• 9:21Tucker Carlson?

  How could you love something like that?

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Oh man, it was just fun solving those problems.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Had a got a feeling of mastery and you know, solving the problems and their tricks, you know, in calculus, how do I reduce this expression to a form that I can actually integrate it and apply, you know, what I know. I liked it and I had a great teacher, Mr. Andres was his name. He was an engineer. He had retired. He was a Northwestern alum, which is how I ended up at Northwestern. He referred me to their admissions committee. And I'd go to his office hours and he'd show me problems and tricks and you know, we were having a good time. But in any case, I'm saying I wanted to study for the exam and the librarian had barricaded

• 10:08Speaker 02

  herself in because she was afraid that the rampaging students who were all up in arms about the strike were gonna somehow come in and deface the library and so on. So she had barricaded herself and I had to persuade her. Took me 15 minutes to persuade her to open the door and let me in so that I could sit down and study because I had to get to that four o'clock shift, the second shift that day to my job and I needed to use what hours I had to study.

• 10:38Tucker Carlson?

  So you're working second shift, so that's four to midnight?

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was working on second and sometimes third shift, but mostly second shift. Yeah, four to midnight, right?

• 10:48Tucker Carlson?

  How old were your kids?

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Lisa and Tammy were born in 1967 and 1968 respectively. So this was 1970. They were two and three.

• 10:58Tucker Carlson?

  Did your wife work?

• 11:00Speaker 02

  She did. She worked at the post office.

• 11:04Tucker Carlson?

  Man, that's a busy family. So you have no time at all then?

• 11:08Speaker 02

  We had our hands full to be sure. We were, you know, very young parents and we were determined to improve ourselves and we were doing the best we could.

• 11:20Tucker Carlson?

  What did you think of the protests, given everything else you had to do?

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, I thought the war sucked.

• 11:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  You know, I was against the war.

• 11:27Tucker Carlson?

  Fair.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  And I thought the protests were justified. I mean, Kent State, you know, these kids got shot and all that.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  But I thought also that a lot of the participation in the protest was kind of indulgent and sad-ish and, you know, it was a fun thing to be doing. It was a part of a kind of manufactured alienation that I didn't share.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  You know, I wasn't about to burn my draft card. The guys that I was working with, most of them were ethnic at the printing plant. Most of them were, you know, Italian or Irish or Jewish or Polish or Greek.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Second generation immigrants to the United States and they were pretty conservative. But there was the Black Power stuff that was going on as well in those years. And I was enmeshed in that on the South Side of Chicago and had family members who were pretty radical. So, you know, I was, if you had to give me a label, I would have been left of center. I would have been a liberal, but I was mainly a nerd.

• 12:45Tucker Carlson?

  What did your radical relatives think of your life path?

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Of my?

• 12:51Tucker Carlson?

  Of your life path of, you know, going to college.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Oh, they were proud of me, you know. Well, I graduated with a very strong academic record from the high school. I got a scholarship to study at the Illinois Institute of Technology. My girlfriend, who became my wife and the mother of my two, first two children,

• 13:15Speaker 02

  had dropped out of high school to give birth.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  And they were worried that I was going to lose my way. So when I, and my father, my mother and father broke up when I was quite young, five years old. But my dad was an important part of my life and I very much wanted his respect and approval and he...

• 13:40Speaker 02

  You know, when I told him that Charlene was pregnant, he said he rolled his eyes and, you know, he said, you have to do the right thing and take care of that kid and stuff. But this is not the way that you, you know, I had imagined you living your life. And when I told him I was dropping out of the Illinois Institute of Technology and going to work, he said, well, let's, you better have a plan. So when I finally kind of pulled myself together and did well at the community college and then got the scholarship at Northwestern and then made the dean's list in my first semester, he was like, okay, this is better. They were proud of me.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  And when I graduated with awards and stuff, I was the prize winning mathematics major in my class of 1972 at Northwestern and I got admitted to MIT as a graduate student that very same year. They were over the moon. They, they, they loved the idea that I was overcoming the odds.

• 14:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. What did your dad do?

• 14:44Speaker 02

  My dad is no longer living. He was a lawyer and accountant. He worked for the Internal Revenue Service. Sorry, Tuck. Spent his life as a, as a federal employee, as a bureaucrat. He worked his way up to being the director of the Kansas City Service Center, which is a huge income tax return processing operation in Kansas City. And it suited him. He was a revenueer. I'm telling you, man, this guy would drive around, he lived in Overland Park, Kansas, which is a tony suburb of Kansas City.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  And he'd drive around and he'd see a boat sitting in somebody's driveway. And he'd ask himself, I wonder how that guy paid for that boat? And I'm not going to put in, put it past him to go and look up the thing and maybe direct an audit in the, in that direction.

• 15:45Tucker Carlson?

  So he believed in paying your taxes?

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. He believed in it very religiously. Yeah.

• 15:51Tucker Carlson?

  Where were his politics?

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Uh, he was a moderate Democrat.

• 15:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  But not especially political. He was mainly a bureaucrat. I mean, he loved the internal politics of who's getting promoted, what budget is going on? Who's the regional director? Uh, and how much power has so and so got? And what about this or that? You know, he loved calling people on the carpet. He was a Patton.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Uh, George C. Scott.

• 16:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  That was his favorite movie.

• 16:24Tucker Carlson?

  See.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  The scene where Patton slaps the recruit. That was his favorite scene.

• 16:31Tucker Carlson?

  So he was the Patton of the Kansas City IRS office?

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, something like that.

• 16:37Tucker Carlson?

  So did you go to MIT?

• 16:39Speaker 02

  I did go to MIT. Did a PhD in economics at MIT in the seventies.

• 16:45Tucker Carlson?

  What was the atmosphere like there then?

• 16:49Speaker 02

  Well, in economics, MIT was riding high. Uh, then there were people, Robert Solo, Paul Samuelson, Frank Modigliani, Robert Merton, uh, all of whom became Nobel laureates in the fullness of time. Samuelson had been honored in sixty-nine or seventy, I think. Um, it was a very, very strong department of economics. It was very Jewish, both the faculty and the student body, and that was noticeable to me. Um, they were notes to the grindstone. They were.

• 17:21Tucker Carlson?

  How many black students were studying for PhD?

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Black students?

• 17:24Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Uh, I'd say maybe twelve out of a hundred and fifty. Something like that. Uh, they had a program, uh, MIT did, determined to respond to the time. They were liberal Democrats. Uh, they had a kind of affirmative action thing. Now, I will say, I'm quite sure I would have been admitted to MIT based on the record that I had established at Northwestern, the prize-winning record. As and everything, taking graduate courses in math and economics when I was still an undergraduate and so on. I think I would have been admitted regardless of their, their program. But I was among three, a cohort of three African Americans in a class of twenty-five.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Who were admitted in 1972 and they had been admitting since 1970 and they continued this on through, I think, 75 or 76, three black students. I was told later that the way that that was done was they had their regular budget for graduate students and then they had additional funds that would allow them to admit three more students who were African American. So they were about 12 of us, 12 to 15.

• 18:37Tucker Carlson?

  Did you keep in touch with the other two guys in your class?

• 18:40Speaker 02

  I did. One didn't finish. He was from Kansas City by coincidence and he left after a couple of years and never finished his degree. The other is teaches at Harvard now and is a dear friend whom I've known for 50 years.

• 19:00Tucker Carlson?

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• 22:22Tucker Carlson?

  How serious was the academic environment when you started at MIT?

• 22:28Speaker 02

  It was absolutely top notch. I mean, it was, it's just technical stuff. And, you know, you were challenged. And the people that you were studying with and competing against, they'd come from Israel and India and Japan and the UK and Russia. And they were the best in the world, a cohort of young prospective economists. And it was very rigorous, very mathematical.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  It was MIT. After all, it was Paul Samuelson. After all, they were green eye shade types with the math and the equations and the statistics and the analysis. But they also had something of an interest, a political flair. As I say, moderate Democrat, left of center, but not really socialist, appreciating the market, but thinking about the mixed economy and regulation and stuff. Samuelson wrote a column for Newsweek every month and Milton Friedman wrote a column for Newsweek and they kind of, Friedman, the conservative from Chicago, the University of Chicago, and they were kind of in dueling perspectives.

• 23:50Tucker Carlson?

  I remember.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  But I was in the midst of that.

• 23:53Tucker Carlson?

  That was back when people talked in public about economics.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  They don't anymore?

• 23:58Tucker Carlson?

  No. There's not a lot of public, it's all about race or sexuality or whatever. But I don't think that I have heard in, like at dinner, a debate about economics in 25 years.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Well, there was a lot of debate about economics and about monetarism and Keynesianism and whatnot, about regulation and laissez faire and whatnot.

• 24:23Tucker Carlson?

  Have you noticed that, though, that the incidents of public debate about economics, people talking about it, like, what's the right system? You don't hear that.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've kind of fallen away from economics, to be honest with you. These last 10, 15 years, I've become a guy that talks more about the culture issues myself. And now with the new administration, Trump, and with the tariffs and the changes in economic policy, there's more talk, it's very arch, it's very partisan, but there's more talk. But yeah.

• 25:03Tucker Carlson?

  So how would you compare the environment at MIT to the one that you're now leaving at Brown, on an academic level?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Well, I want to distinguish between a specialized program of graduate study at MIT and a general education program for undergraduates at Brown. I think if I were to go to compare economics PhD study at Brown today to that at MIT in the early 70s, it would be a different kind of comparison. There, the issue would be how the field has changed, the questions that are prominent, the techniques that are employed to investigate them. And there, I would focus a lot on the revolution of data analysis, that laptop and desktop

• 25:58Speaker 02

  computers, that data availability and so on, and also the change in the set of questions that people are asking, which are applied. And experimental economics, for example, has become a big thing. Nobel Prizes are given in development economics and stuff like that, where people are trying to figure out how to make the best use of resources to raise living standards in poor countries and stuff. And economics was more self-consciously theoretical and abstract when I was a student. You could make a living without ever carrying one of those boxes of computer cards over

• 26:43Speaker 02

  to the computer processing center. You could just with a pencil and a yellow pad, sit and off the top of one's head, as it were, invent. Models of interesting economic phenomena and get yourself published in the journal and make, you know, tenure and all of that. And I think it'd be much, much harder to do that now.

• 27:05Tucker Carlson?

  That sounds like a good thing.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think on the whole, it is a good thing. But that would be if I were comparing economics in 2025 to economics in 1975, much more empirical, much more data intensive, much more applied, and a range of, a wider range of questions. But if I were comparing college in the period when I was a young student to now, I think, you know, the assault that we're seeing, the confrontation that we're seeing of elite higher education with anti-woke sentiment

• 27:48Speaker 02

  coming from the Trump administration and critics like the young Christopher Rufo, but there are many, bespeaks the ideological drift that has characterized higher education in the last decades. It's become much more political, much more self-consciously radical, much more anti-establishment, and as it were, woke, faddish. You know, I've lived through the French theorists and deconstruction and whatnot. I'm not a literary or humanist.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  I'm a social scientist, but I can see, looking, you know, across the aisle, as it were, at what my colleagues are doing. And I've lived through the anti-racism mania. I've lived through the various enthusiasms of feminism and sexual liberation and whatnot. The debate about capitalism,

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Is a different argument now than it was when I was coming along. When I was coming along, you read Karl Marx because you wanted to be educated and you knew that that was an important part of the intellectual inheritance. But you read it with a skeptical eye because you know that while the radical agitator and bomb thrower of Marx was an important historical figure, you didn't think that the economic analysis was really very cogent or incisive. And you didn't read it as a Bible.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  You read it as a, okay, there is a problem here about how to understand the implications of the transformation, which is industrialization and so on. There are real issues about how the fruits of economic cooperation get divided amongst the participants in the process, the people who bring capital, the people who own natural resources and land, the people who rely on their labor as the source of their income. And there's an analytical issue about how to think that through. And we saw Marx as something of an oddball in that respect.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  But and I think in the center of the economics establishment, that would be the judgment. But I think I can't stop the sociologists from reading Marx. I can't stop the anthropologists from reading Marx. I can't stop the literary critics from reading Marx.

• 30:35Tucker Carlson?

  Which is who's reading him, right?

• 30:37Speaker 02

  Historians from reading Marx. And they've taken that kind of sensibility, that kind of criticism of established social relations and the kind of radicalism and enthusiasm, as I say, for the fads that come along of equality and so on. They've taken it where they've taken it. The university has become, to a certain degree, captured by that sensibility. And we're seeing a backlash against that.

• 31:09Tucker Carlson?

  You said you've seen various waves of sexual liberation movements. And over the last 50 years, there have been a number of them. Was anyone liberated, do you think?

• 31:21Speaker 02

  I don't see how you can say that women were not empowered. If, you know, we go to, who is it? Betty Friedan or Simone de Beauvoir or somebody like that. And the set of issues that they were talking about. And you look at where ideas are about equality for women now and the appropriate role of women in political and social life. I think you can say, I don't know if you want to say they were liberated because they are confronted with challenges in life that are intrinsic to the, it seems to me, to the way in which we reproduce and the way in which the species has evolved.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  And some of that stuff is hardwired and it's going to, you know, always be a part of the, of the, of the issue. But I think the presumptions about the entitlement of women to an opportunity to fully develop their human potential is move forward. Were blacks liberated? Well, I just read an interesting book by Jason Riley, the conservative African American, Wall Street Journal editorialist. He calls it "The Myth of Affirmative Action", and he basically argues in the spirit of the great Thomas Sowell that, you know, blacks were really doing pretty well between 1940 and 1960.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  And when you look at the acceleration of wages and the breakdown of barriers of segregation and whatnot, that that was a golden age for African American advancement. And that advancement after 1960 was less rapid. And that the ballyhoo about liberation of African Americans associated with black power and the civil rights movement and the advent of affirmative action is overstated, that there were downsides, significant downsides to those developments, both in terms of the...

• 33:29Speaker 02

  A betting economic empowerment for African Americans, but also in terms of the credibility of the political claims that blacks were making on the rest of the society. And things became more partisan and divisive. And this is Riley's argument, and I have some sympathy for it.

• 33:51Tucker Carlson?

  So what, I mean, it's a very complex subject, and you've obviously lived at the middle of it for a long time. But what is the verdict? Was all of that good for African Americans or not? Or probably a mix of both. But like, how would you describe what we know now?

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Well, you know, if you were to pick up a typical work wanted ad page in 1960 in a major American city, you would see explicit kind of no blacks need apply type language. If you were to look at controlling for the skills that people had, the anticipated earnings of a worker, you would see that there being African American was a negative, and it was a non-trivial negative in 1960.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  If you were to look at the way the housing market operated or at the allocation of public educational resources, you would see significant discriminatory barriers that impeded African American development of their skills and participation in the society. And all of that has changed. So that's, I think, for the good, without any question. That having changed, let's call it the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the change in the ethos of the country with the rise of the civil rights movement and so on. That having changed, the question becomes, we get to 1970, let's say, and the question becomes what next?

• 35:34Speaker 02

  And there, I think the story is less clear. And I think that there are developments that are very distressing. I think when you, there's a wonderful book that I want to plug here called The World of Patience Gromes, G R O M E S, by a man called Scott Davis. Patience Gromes is a woman born in the late 19th century, like 1890 or something like that, who, to a yeoman farmer, a black person who owned his own land, her father, and she's

• 36:19Speaker 02

  a princess. She takes piano lessons. She, she dresses up for church on Sunday. They have a very strict behavioral code. They're devout Christians. They are Booker T. Washington-esque.

• 36:32Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  In their orientation. And she marries and migrates to Richmond, Virginia and starts a family in the 1920s. And Scott Davis, the author of this great book, traces her family life through the early 1960s. And what you see for Patience Gromes is her kids' struggle. The neighborhood, which is not wealthy, but stable. Her husband works for the railroad. He's got a very good job. Neighborhoods declines. Model cities and various kinds of federal

• 37:15Speaker 02

  programs come through that end up remaking the community in ways that actually work in an adverse effect. Public housing, which is initiated with the idea that the poor were going to be sheltered, ends up creating ghetto-type phenomenon. The kids who used to be interested in earning the respect of their peers by keeping their nose clean, keeping their nose to the grindstone, not having kids before they were married and stuff like that, end up embracing a much looser and less helpful set of cultural practices. And by the time you get to the 1970s, it's a mess.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  So there's a lot of mess. Um, there's, uh, I mean, these are statistics that people cite all the time. Uh, black family life, uh, used to be much healthier, uh, than it is out of what like birth and all of that. Um, of course, there was crime. Uh, Du Bois, uh, in the Philadelphia Negro at the turn of the 20th century, uh, is, uh, quick to point out that there was, uh, that there was crime, uh, but the violence, uh, the gangs, the drugs, um, the, um, lawlessness, the contempt for order.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Um, this was, uh, a development that we can, uh, see emerging in the post civil rights environment. So it's a mixed bag, I think. I mean, you know, you can speculate, and people do, about, uh, the sources of this, uh, dissolution, and I think there are many. I think they are the incentives of welfare transfer programs, which encouraged people to live in ways that were ultimately not, uh, socially productive. Uh, I think the change in the larger culture in which these liberatory sexual revolutions, uh, gave the back of their hand to a set of, um, conventions, expectations, and restraints

• 39:25Speaker 02

  that were, uh, yes, freedom impose, uh, freedom limiting. I mean, you can just do anything you want to do and maintain the respect of your peers, you, you, but were also order inducing, freedom limiting, but order inducing and, uh, provided a framework within which people could manage, uh, the difficult problem of how do we live decently? What do we do with our temptations? How do we restrain our, uh, appetites? Uh, how do we understand and then, um, live up to our responsibilities? Uh, and I think that's a society-wide development, not just something that happens in, uh, in black communities.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  But I think the the the politics of racial claiming,

• 40:14Speaker 02

  the victim psychology and mentality that

• 40:21Speaker 02

  ends up with reparations, as you're arguing point. I don't think those are healthy things. These are things I've written about in my work.

• 40:31Tucker Carlson?

  So I I experienced all of this from like sort of the other side. I didn't grow up around a lot of black people, only kind of rich black people. And but I grew up around a lot of white liberals who were very invested in talking about the civil rights movement. And from that, they derived like moral authority, great moral authority, like I'm on the side of black people, therefore I'm a good person.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:57Tucker Carlson?

  And it does feel like maybe they were the great beneficiaries of the whole thing. Like there was sort of no downside for them.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  They got to pat themselves on the back about being virtuous, even if what they were doing at the end of the day wasn't helping to solve the problem.

• 41:15Tucker Carlson?

  It does feel that way. I mean, again, I I've never lived on the South Side of Chicago, but I've heard a lot of rich people talk about it.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  Here's what I think, Tucker. I think.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  And I've I've written about this in essays and so on. I think that there are basically two dispositions that you can have in thinking about the persistence of racial inequality, what I call the bias narrative. And the bias narrative is that we're behind because they have kept us out.

• 41:50Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  And that affords your white liberal do-gooders an opportunity to side on the

• 41:58Speaker 02

  historical imperative of let's stop the bias, let's fight racism, anti-racism. And there's the development narrative. And the development narrative basically says, the long history of enslavement, Jim Crow exclusion and segregation has left African Americans with an imperative to develop our human potential more fully. We were denied the complete opportunity to do so. The doors, however, have opened substantially and the ball is in our court. That is the existential challenge, in my opinion, that African Americans have faced

• 42:36Speaker 02

  for a half century since the end of the civil rights movement, to grasp the nettle and to seize the imperative of measuring up, of fulfilling our potential of development. The white liberals that you were just referring to, who are interested in being on the right side of history by doing the right thing by black people, embrace the biased narrative and give us an excuse to not take up the challenge of the development narrative. Meanwhile, the country is moving on, the world is moving on. Yes. The world gets small, you get globalization, the world gets shaken by one after another

• 43:21Speaker 02

  technological revolution, which changes everything, and we're in the midst of one right now with the AI and all that that's going on. The demography changes, you get tens of millions of people coming from non-European ports of call and making their lives in this country. There are more Hispanics by far than there are blacks in the United States right now. The Asians, if you can speak in those generic terms, are here to stay. The world is getting small. So not confronting the development challenge, continuing to take the victim's stance, continuing

• 44:00Speaker 02

  to relying on the largesse and the beneficence of supposedly supportive white liberals is a disaster for black people. It's not a disaster for the, what I call negro cognoscenti, the anointed ones, the shell Obamas of the world, with respect, as much as I can muster. Not a disaster for those who are the ambassadors to white America on behalf of black America, like your friend Al Sharpton. But a disaster for that kid who can't read. Yes. A disaster for that mother with three children and she doesn't know how she's going to feed them and she hasn't gotten an education. A disaster for the gangbanger who's running around firing his pistol aimlessly out the

• 44:45Speaker 02

  window at a gang rival and killing a three-year-old sitting on her auntie's lap. It's a disaster for those people. There's no escaping the imperative to develop. There's no substitute for being effective, for having a mastery over skill, for having solved the basic problem of life. Which again, I say is how do I comport myself in a way that is both dignified and consistent with my own and my children's prosperity? That problem has to be faced. It still has to be faced.

• 45:16Tucker Carlson?

  So I always blamed, again, not my world. And I've never really been that focused on these questions, but I live here. So it's like, everyone's always talking about it. And I always blamed the black leaders for this, for what you just described. I agree with everything you said. It seems obviously true. But I always thought, you know, it's Sharpton's fault, or Jesse Jackson's fault, or whatever. And it took me a long, I'm still trying to figure it out. But it does seem like they themselves were pawns, actually. That's, that's my current thinking on this. I don't know if you've thought about this or noticed this or know what I'm talking about. But it does feel like, you know, you can criticize Sharpton or whatever. And you should. He's obviously corrupt and it's all silly and all that, the shakedown, all that stuff. But like, he's not doing that by himself, actually.

• 45:58Tucker Carlson?

  He's being used by other people, probably not black people, who are deriving some bigger advantage from the status quo.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  I don't disagree with that.

• 46:13Tucker Carlson?

  And they never get any attention. You're like, so if you're NBC and you're hiring Sharpton, again, I personally, as I told you last night, probably horrified. I kind of like Sharpton because I think he's smart, he's amusing, but he's, you know, I think been probably pretty bad for the country. I don't think he's helped black people at all. But like, if you're NBC, why are you, you're driving an advantage from the system that is not helping the people Sharpton says he supports? Like, why? They're never blamed for that, I guess, is what I'm saying.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, who would blame them? Conservatives.

• 46:46Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Republicans would blame them. And they're racist, you know?

• 46:50Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. But they both, conservatives mostly don't, actually. They blame Sharpton. Or I'll speak for myself as a conservative lifelong. I would always be like, Sharpton's the problem. And it's like, no, I think the whole, I'm just really struck. I don't know too much about it, but I'm really struck by the difference. Like, I grew up thinking, you know, Martin Luther King was like a great man. There, I still think great things about him. And Malcolm X was a really sort of evil figure. But If you listen to Malcolm X, he's a lot closer, with some big differences, but in general to what you're describing as positive.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 47:27Tucker Carlson?

  And he got murdered.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  And so did King. No, I have enormous respect for the straight-backed, manly, autonomous, independent, responsibility- embracing

• 47:43Tucker Carlson?

  Amen.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  posture of Malcolm X. You know, he says, "Nobody is coming to save us. We had better take care of our own." Are you raising your children? Did you pick up the trash in front of your house?

• 47:54Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Will you start a business? You don't have wealth. You're waiting with your hand out for somebody to give you wealth? Why don't you start a business? Why don't you take care of your own community? You know, get busy.

• 48:08Tucker Carlson?

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• 50:15Tucker Carlson?

  So why? Okay, so like all high school students, I read the autobiography of Malcolm X, which I don't even know if it was written by Malcolm X. It was written by Alex Haley. But I don't know to what extent it reflected his real views. But then with YouTube, I watched a couple of Malcolm X speeches, and it was like a totally different person from the one I was presented in high school and much more along the lines of what you just said. And I was like, well, why isn't this guy much more famous than he is now? One of the speeches, he goes off after white liberals, and he's like, you know, whites are bad. Whites are a problem. But the real problem is white liberals. I was like, you call Malcolm X? Why isn't he? It almost feels like his message has been suppressed a little bit, maybe?

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. I'm not a historian, but I see what you say. And I do think there are aspects of his message that are extremely threatening to established order. Hence, you know, he was Muslim. He was succeeded in his leadership of that movement, ultimately by Louis Farrakhan, who was a notorious anti-Semi, quote unquote. So there's that. But Malcolm X was uncompromising about, well, you remember his comment after the Kennedy assassination? Chickens come home, they roost, and... Whatnot.

• 51:35Tucker Carlson?

  What do you think he meant by that? I've never understood what that meant.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  I think he meant US entailment in global affairs has created enemies. The US has undertaken various operations that are

• 51:52Speaker 02

  in effect, responsible for the blowback that we're seeing. That's what I think he meant.

• 51:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 51:58Tucker Carlson?

  Probably some, probably some truth in that.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Well, you're the conspiracy theorist.

• 52:02Tucker Carlson?

  Not hardly. I'm just trying to understand the world.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  Are we ever gonna see all the documents related to that?

• 52:11Tucker Carlson?

  Of course not. And, you know, to the three, so the president issued an executive order on January 23rd, one of the first things that he did after the inauguration, commanding, commanding with the force of law, the federal agencies, executive branch should declassify all documents pertaining to the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and Bobby Kennedy in 1968. And that hasn't happened.

• 52:41Tucker Carlson?

  But you have to ask yourself, well, you know, why 60 years later are they still classified in the first place? Like, what is that? And I don't think it's because the truth is easy to deal with. I mean, I still think the truth 60 years later is really threatening to somebody, clearly. Because on some level, like, why would you care? If you found out there was a, you know, complex conspiracy to assassinate Garfield, you'd be like, okay, you know, it's long over. Like, I think we can tell the truth. Everyone's dead. Exactly. So it does make you wonder like, well, what is this actually? And I know for a fact, a verifiable fact, that the pushback against declassifying this stuff within the government has been very intense, very intense. So that tells you that there's something worth hiding.

• 53:26Tucker Carlson?

  I certainly hope, because I believe in disclosure and honesty, that it all comes out. But, um. But you do get the feeling, not as a conspiracy nut, but as an honest person trying to make sense of history in the present, that a lot of our assumptions are based on things that aren't true or fully true. Do you sense that?

• 53:45Speaker 02

  I do, and it's deeply disquieting to me, actually.

• 53:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  Because it means that the reality that I take for granted is orchestrated or manufactured, and there are forces, I would have to presume, dark forces at work that I don't fully understand. And then if this is not what it appears to be, what else that I take for granted?

• 54:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Is a charade or a fantasy?

• 54:11Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, in some ways, I mean, obviously, you've been an African American conservative for a long time, moved around, but basically, you've been against the conventional view of things for a long time, I would say.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:23Tucker Carlson?

  But you're also working within like the very heart of the system, Harvard, Brown, MIT, like you're, you know, you have every possible credential. So at what point did it occur to you that maybe some of this was fake? When did you start to think that?

• 54:47Speaker 02

  I don't really know the answer to that question. I'm gonna make a personal reference. I married my wife, LaWan, whom you've met.

• 54:55Tucker Carlson?

  And had like the best.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  Just about eight years ago.

• 54:58Tucker Carlson?

  Dinner with her last night, yes. She's awesome.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  And I would say that that relationship has been a wake up call for me in that she brings a perspective that's very different from my conventional. I read the New York Times, and I pretty much believe when I'm reading, I read the Washington Post, I read the Wall Street Journal, I read the Chronicles of Higher Education, I, you know, and, you know, that's what they're saying. And, you know, I take it seriously, and I watch television, I watch the Sunday shows, and she's like, man, that is all manufactured consent. She's gonna pull out Noam Chomsky on me.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  So I say all that to say, while I am not necessarily gonna parrot her perspective on things, they have caused me, encountering her perspective has caused me to revisit some of my own assumptions.

• 55:54Tucker Carlson?

  And it's been uncomfortable, you said?

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so, sure.

• 55:57Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Because it turns out that, and this actually relates to the book that I have coming out from Polity Books called Self-Censorship in a couple of months. It makes me aware of the fact that the discussion of controversial and sensitive matters that is sanitized and acceptable in the mainstream venues is only the tip of the iceberg of legitimate discussion and debate. And that there, if you don't do your quote unquote, your own research, if you don't exert

• 56:39Speaker 02

  an effort, if you don't look around, if you don't listen to alternative voices, if you don't access independent media, which we are awash in now, but which is relatively new last quarter century or so, you're being led around by the nose. You're being, how did Malcolm X say, you're being bamboozled, you're being hoodwinked. You're not exercising your full critical capacities. You have to exert the effort to look beyond what's right in front of your nose.

• 57:19Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think you've been bamboozled?

• 57:24Speaker 02

  A little bit, yeah.

• 57:26Tucker Carlson?

  How?

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Well, for example, I pretty much take what my government says to be, until proven otherwise, true and reliable. And, you know, I have reason now to be more skeptical about that.

• 57:45Tucker Carlson?

  You are the master of understatement, I must say.

• 57:49Tucker Carlson?

  Reason now to be skeptical of that. You do. I think we look, I can confirm that.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Well, man, I mean, we've been at war since forever.

• 57:58Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Do we need, really need to be at war since forever? There were no weapons of mass destruction. Were there?

• 58:07Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  In Iraq. Are we really gonna go to war with Iran and turn the world economy upside down?

• 58:15Speaker 02

  Is that what we're about to do? These are important questions. Must we risk nuclear war with a nuclear armed Russia over the conflict in Ukraine as an imperative to prevent the reemergence of a dominant force coming from the east to occupy civilization? I'm being told, or let me get more prosaic. Is it really Jim Crow 2.0 if they want to ask for a driver's license before you cast the ballot in Georgia?

• 58:45Speaker 02

  I mean, if I don't ask myself some of those questions, I'll be being led around by the nose over the cliff.

• 58:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 58:57Tucker Carlson?

  I'm, I'm younger than you, but I, I've had a, I've had a similar. I'm not even sure it's awakening. I, I don't know the answers to most of the questions that you just asked, but I know that they're valid questions and it's important to push back a little bit, right? Because, but how weird is it to, especially for you, because again, you have pushed back against the status quo for a long time. It's why you're famous. So you've been, to be blunt, much more of a free thinker than most people, certainly at university level. So it's not like you were just like following orders. Anyway. It must be particularly weird for you to realize that some of your assumptions may not be true.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. I got used to being the contrarian and thinking of myself as the guy who thought outside the box and who was not bound by convention.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  I came to realize, though, that I wasn't quite as independent a thinker as I imagined myself to be and that there were

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  traps, you know?

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  So, yeah.

• 1:00:13Tucker Carlson?

  So if you don't mind, if you just describe the process of realizing that, what made you come to that conclusion?

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  So, um, I'm going to talk about my relationship with the Manhattan Institute.

• 1:00:33Tucker Carlson?

  And can you, for those who aren't in right wing world like me and you, can you just describe the Manhattan Institute?

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  Manhattan Institute is a think tank based in New York City, publishes a magazine called City Journal, puts out reports and houses scholars who are investigating different aspects of social policy, largely urban related issues. And they've been around for a while.

• 1:01:00Tucker Carlson?

  I used to write for them.

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  Did you?

• 1:01:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, Myron Magnet was the editor of Wonderful Man, ran City Journal. Yeah, they were.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  And, and they are.

• 1:01:09Tucker Carlson?

  They were great.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  They are a highbrow, serious, intellectually robust, critical, from the right observer about all manner of issues, about housing, about crime, about welfare and other things, mostly American domestic politics.

• 1:01:36Speaker 02

  And I signed on there a few years ago as a senior fellow and my podcast, The Glenn Show, which I put out content every week, was being sponsored by the Manhattan Institute.

• 1:01:50Tucker Carlson?

  And can I ask you, just, you made such a point that I think is worth underlining. The Manhattan Institute, and particularly City Journal, its flagship publication, are concerned, have been for 30 years with domestic issues. This is, this is not the Hudson Institute, this is not AI, this is like a. overwhelmingly domestic focused organization. Is that fair?

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's correct. They worry about race issues. They worry about crime and punishment type issues. They worry about, you know, housing, about city politics, and you know, things like that. And they have, you know, estimable scholars who are a part of the shop that produces these studies and commentaries. And so, and I signed on there as a senior fellow, John Paulson Senior Fellow at the Manhattan Institute. And we are part of company recently at their behest, both their sponsorship of my podcast and their employment to me as a

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  senior fellow because of some of the public comments that I had made at my podcast and some of the people whom I have been interviewed there, where the issue of the conflict in Palestine and Middle East and Gaza and Israel has come up. And I ran afoul of the sensibility of this. My friend, Raihan Salam, who's president of the Manhattan Institute, wrote me saying that we review our scholarly relationships from time to time. This is practically a quote, for productivity. And there's no question about my productivity. I've put a dozen articles

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  in their city journal over the last five years, and shared priorities. And so I assume it's that we don't share priorities. And the priorities that I assume we don't share have to do with me inviting an historian colleague of mine on the show, The Glenn Show, to talk about the post October 7, 2023 incursion of the IDF into Gaza, which he characterized in the same kind of language that international human rights organizations have used as being, if not genocide, then in the same ballpark and something that one needs to be concerned about from a human rights perspective. He thinks the International Criminal Court and

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  the International Court of Justice are right to take initiatives that are holding Israeli officials to account for the prosecution of that conflict. And I had him on the show. Now, who is he? His name is Omer Bartov. He's a student of the Holocaust, of the Nazi extermination campaign in Eastern Europe, and has written books about that. And he's been my colleague for 20 years at Brown. I've gotten to know him, and I knew that he was engaging these questions in a controversial manner, and I wanted to hear from him, so I had him on the show.

• 1:04:56Tucker Carlson?

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• 1:06:02Tucker Carlson?

  So, he's a professor at Brown?

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, very distinguished historian.

• 1:06:09Tucker Carlson?

  And I think it's fair to say he's not an anti-Semite?

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  He's Israeli.

• 1:06:13Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, okay. I just wanted this to be clear to everyone listening. So it's not like you didn't have Louis Farrakhan on the show to like call Judaism a gutter religion or something. You had an Israeli historian of the Holocaust on.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  No, and there were objections coming from the staff at MI, and they asked that we not, in promoting the show, make mention of the Institute, of the Manhattan Institute, in connection with this particular episode. And there were other incidents. The black American writer Ta-Nehisi Coates came out with a book called The Message, in which he describes writing about politics. And there are several chapters. One reviews his first visit to Africa and talks about his encounter with the Senegalese

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  and the complex dynamic of an African American thinking of himself as an African, but not really being an African.

• 1:07:12Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  In Africa. Another essay describes him going to a small town in South Carolina that had banned one of his books because it's critical race theory and finding that the people there were more complicated and interesting and malleable, that is open to discourse than he would have imagined, and sort of exposing the complexity of this moment in our cultural history of anti-racism and anti-anti-racism. But the main bulk of the book is devoted, in Coates's book, The Message, to recounting his experience as a visitor on the West Bank of Palestine.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  And he's appalled by what he sees, and he says so. And in conversation with John McWhorter, who is a regular conversation partner of mine at the podcast, I allowed his how I admired the book. I said it was not without its flaws, and it should be understood that I have been sharply critical of Ta-Nehisi Coates's other writings.

• 1:08:22Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I remember very well.

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  He had a very famous essay in The Atlantic, I think 2014 to 2015, called The Case for Reparations, which I objected to and said so at length. And then he published a bestselling book called Between the World and Me, which was very widely praised and widely read. And I had deep problems with it, which I discussed at length on the podcast. So I'm generally disposed to be a conservative critic of Coates.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  But I admired the book and I admired in particular the essay in which he reflected on what he saw in the West Bank. I didn't necessarily agree with all of his sensibilities and so on, but I thought it was a interesting, provocative, insightful, humane engagement with a difficult, very difficult set of issues. Well, the party line on the book, including at the Manhattan Institute, is this is unspeakable. This is a black guy who doesn't know what the F he's talking about, wandering around on the West Bank in the company of some anti-Zionist

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  Jews and coming back and talking about it as if it were, he uses the word apartheid. Colts uses the word apartheid. He said, what I saw in the West Bank, this is the West Bank, not Gaza, was reminiscent to me of what I saw in South Africa, and I didn't like what I saw, and it's wrong, and I'm going to tell you why I think it's wrong. And I don't care what account you're giving of the history. He has read some of the history, but he's not deeply versed in the historical record of how the circumstance in Palestine has come to be. But it is, but his basic point is, look, I'm telling you what I'm seeing

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  there is not healthy, it's not humane, and it's not right. And I had some appreciation for his courage to say so and for the artful way in which he said so. And I said so on the show. And

• 1:10:35Tucker Carlson?

  In the same restrained, non-radical way you're describing it now to me?

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I just basically said, this is something that has to be reckoned with. I said to John, my partner in conversation, who's also an African American, he teaches at Columbia University and writes a regular piece, a newsletter for the New York Times. And he took exception and he and I, John and I, went back and forth about this. But, and it came to like me saying what I actually thought about what was happening in Gaza. And what I thought was October 7, 2023 was horrific. What Hamas did was barbaric. I'm against it. I have no brief for it whatsoever.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  However, what I saw proceeding in the aftermath of that was a campaign of collective punishment that was horrific in the extreme, and I didn't want to have my country having anything to do with it, and I wasn't afraid to say so. Now, I didn't say it quite that directly, but that's pretty much the burden of what it is I had to say.

• 1:11:44Tucker Carlson?

  So that's it? You didn't say, you didn't like espouse violence, or?

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  No, no, I basically took up the cause that has animated a lot of agitation, not just on college campuses in the United States, but in public opinion throughout the world, to say, "Stop it!" I called for a ceasefire, with the release of the hostages, of course. But I said, "This is not what a civilized country should be doing, and I object."

• 1:12:27Tucker Carlson?

  That doesn't seem, I mean, people could disagree with you, for sure, but it doesn't seem like radical or crazy.

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  No, you know, and a lot of Israelis agree with me.

• 1:12:36Tucker Carlson?

  For sure. Well, including the one you interviewed, I guess. Your colleague at Brown.

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, Omer, of course, but many.

• 1:12:44Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, oh, I know. So what happened next?

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  Well, next, the outfit called AIRWARS, A-I-R-W-A-R-S, AIRWARS, which is an initiative to study the consequences of aerial bombardment in conflict, put out a report documenting the extensive civilian casualties that were being engendered by the bombing attacks that Israel was conducting in Gaza. And I had one of the people who was sympathetic to the report on the show to discuss the report about civilian casualties. Basically, he was arguing that the number of women and children killed relative to the number of

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  combatants killed was exceptionally high, and reflected tactics that you could question as to whether or not they were absolutely necessary. I mean, he made a collective punishment argument. And I had him in a debate. This guy's name is Andrew Cockrell. He's a historian PhD student at the London School of Economics. I had him on with Eli Lake, who's a journalist, writes about Middle East and other international affairs.

• 1:14:02Tucker Carlson?

  But it was a debate, so you had.

• 1:14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had both.

• 1:14:04Tucker Carlson?

  I've never heard of Cockrell. I don't know anything about it.

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  Well, he's not very prominent.

• 1:14:08Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, but but Lake is prominent and um but but both sides were represented. I guess that's what I just want to establish for.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, both sides were represented and they had their back and forth about the how do you interpret the data on civilian casualties and the bombardment, aerial bombardment of this campaign. And then I did a kind of me directly to the camera, 10 minute or 15 minute reflection on the interview as a bonus feature of the podcast, which we make available to paying subscribers and where I interact with my with someone from my staff who's basically interviews me about the interview that I did. And I was asked, did I learn anything from Eli Lake? And I said, what was I gonna learn?

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  And I basically recounted my view, which I've already described here, of what was being proceeding, what has been proceeding there in Gaza as a collective punishment that I don't think is justified. And I said to him, I said, no, he said nothing to dissuade me from that point of view. And that got posted. And I got notified the next day that the Manhattan Institute was discontinuing its relationship with me as a senior fellow.

• 1:15:32Tucker Carlson?

  How did they tell you?

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  I got a note from Reihan saying, as I've mentioned, that we do review our scholar connections from time to time for productivity and priorities. And we've decided not to continue to work with you.

• 1:15:47Tucker Carlson?

  The next day?

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:49Tucker Carlson?

  Did he call you?

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

  No. No, it was a two paragraph email.

• 1:15:55Tucker Carlson?

  And that's it? That's the only contact you had?

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  I haven't talked to him since.

• 1:16:00Tucker Carlson?

  I know Reihan is one of the, it sounds like he was a friend of yours too, is one of the world's nicest people.

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like Reihan a lot, actually. I'm a little bit disappointed about this. Now, let me just say this.

• 1:16:10Tucker Carlson?

  But what do you think that was?

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  I assume it was somebody saying, this guy's gotta go. And I don't know who the somebody is. I assume that that's somebody sitting on the board of the Manhattan Institute, or it may be that the internal deliberations had been, the warning signs had been flashing for some months, and finally, this was, this was over the top and more than people could tolerate. It may be the John Paulson Senior Fellow, the John Paulson, or someone like him, that is a heavy hitter who puts up funds for the institute's operations, said, this is unacceptable, you gotta do something about this. But I'm speculating in saying that, and I want to say something else, Tucker, which is that I'm not mad at anybody.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  I'm, I am sobered, and it's a cold bucket of water in the face, and it's a reminder to me about the environment that we all operate in. The Manhattan Institute had been good to me. They helped me get my memoir written. They have supported my work. I've made friends there. So it's, it's not as if I'm feeling that, you know, I've been disrespected, although I imagine that the positions that I took on this issue just were simply not tolerable, and this has been the consequence of that.

• 1:17:34Tucker Carlson?

  If you, it's, first of all, it's so sad, and I would agree. I, I think the Manhattan Institute's been a force for good, and they've been kind to me, you know, 30 years ago, when I didn't have any money, I worked for them on the side. They were great, and I really like Reihan. I like everyone I know there. Chris Ruffo, I think, is there. Good people. But I think this is a really revealing thing that you're describing, and I wonder if the conversation had been about an American bombing campaign, somewhere there've been so many, but of any country that we've been bombing, you know, and you had said, I think this amounts to collective punishment, and I think it's wrong. This is not how civilized nations behave. If you'd said that about the United States, would you have gotten the same reaction?

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  No, in my opinion, not at all.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  You know, the issue of Israel and the nature of the October 7th attack and the political climate that's been created since and the advent of vigorous protest on American campuses and the need to marshal, you know, all hands on deck here for the project, this project of Zionism, a project of defending, the project of establishing the state of Israel, which is under threat, requires people to get in line. And I think that's what's going on here.

• 1:18:58Tucker Carlson?

  I just think it feels to me counterproductive. I love the United States. I'm never leaving tons of things about American history I would not defend. Why would I? Slavery. You know, I like the American Indians, don't think they were treated very well. That's our part of our founding and it's depressing and I'm happy to say that. I think the Vietnam War was a disaster. Iraq was a disaster. US government did all that stuff. And I say that as someone who really loves America and I'm not attacking America, but like, it's okay to say that. It doesn't mean I hate America, right? Don't you think that's a better way to approach public debate? Rather than just like, any, you must read these lines and anyone who disagrees is like a Nazi. That's not, that doesn't help the people

• 1:19:43Tucker Carlson?

  pushing it.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  I think my detractors and I now speculate wanted me to be a neutral arbiter and not to be a partisan, not to take a side. I think they wanted me to hear from Barry Weiss or Douglas Murray or some such person to give the case against the position that I had stated. I think also that I'm dabbling in something that people spend their lives on. And the feeling was I'm out of my depth and it's not, you know, you want to talk about race, you want to talk about affirmative action, you want to talk about reparations, you want to talk about crime and punishment in American cities? Sure. Glenn Loury, he's,

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  you know, the guy that we conservatives can rely upon to give a critical assessment of those issues. You want to talk about Gaza? You want to talk about Israel? You want to talk about Zionism? You want to talk about the West Bank? You want to talk about the occupation? Who is he? This is not his bailiwick. And I think also that the fact that I'm an African American who embodies a kind of position of

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  moral critique of anti-racism and so on, whose prominent identity as a, not a wild-eyed leftist, but a person of centrist to right of center sensibility, who however speaks out on behalf of the Palestinian position. They're going to call me a Hamas sympathizer, you know? I'm not a Hamas sympathizer. I'm, like I said, appalled by what I've seen proceed in Gaza

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  and don't want to be associated with it. I don't want my country associated with it. I think it's wrong. I think it's excessive. I think it's punitive in the extreme. I think it's inhumane. I don't think it's necessary. Well, defend that position, will you? People will say. I think as a black intellectual of somewhat conservative sensibility, it's way out of line for me to be taken that kind of a position. And I think that's why a point had to be made.

• 1:22:30Tucker Carlson?

  Because it's a threat to have someone like you say something like that?

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  Not to exaggerate my own importance, yes.

• 1:22:40Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I mean, I just have lived in this, in the, in that world for so long, 35 years, that, you know, for, in conservative world, very famous, you were a very famous guy. And so I think you have real importance in that world, of course. And, but why would it be more of a threat for you to say that than for one of your white colleagues with the same views to say that?

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  Well, that's ethnic cleansing, apartheid, genocide, World Court, International Court of Justice. I think the authorization of a certain kind of perspective that, of course, remember the huge debate about Zionism being racism. I'm not making that claim.

• 1:23:36Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not either. I don't, I don't want to get involved in any of this stuff, is my personal view.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  I was in Durban, South Africa in 2001 for the World Conference Against Racism. And I remember Colin Powell decide, as Secretary of State, deciding not to attend the World Conference Against Racism because of the controversy that had emerged about anti-Zionist elements wanting to make a point out of Zionism being racism at that conference. And Powell wouldn't attend it. I didn't endorse that position then, and I'm not endorsing it now. I think that's too facile and ahistorical of an equation to draw.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  But I think that's the thing that the defenders of the Zionist project fear, getting camel's nose under the tent. The idea that there could be some South Africa-like indictment of the political project.

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  That could emerge and could gain credence. And that's not, that's not acceptable. I mean, that's why I think the not implausible set of observations about the settler colonialism aspect of the Zionist project must be nipped in the bud. It has to be seen as absolutely ridiculous and people who teach it, and I taught at the Watson Institute for International Affairs at Brown, as an economist for years, teaching international studies and development studies kinds of courses. And it's this sentiment

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  of European influence throughout the global South and whatnot gets applied in the context of Israel, Palestine by some critics, and they are now on the run. The critics who would apply that sentiment are part of this

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  woke incumbency in American higher education, which is being run out of town on a rail as we speak.

• 1:25:51Speaker 02

  And I think these things are all somehow connected with one another.

• 1:25:55Tucker Carlson?

  Clearly, clearly they are. I'm just, I'm struck by something you said a few minutes ago, that when you had Bartov, your colleague, the Israeli, on your podcast, his views are widely represented in Israel.

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  They are.

• 1:26:11Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I, having been to Israel a number of times, I know a lot of Israelis. I know that that's true, that there is a robust debate about these kinds of things there, but not here. What, what is that?

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  Well, I could ask you, I mean, I can only speculate about why that is. I think, though, the influence of the Israel lobby, as it's called in some quarters, is not insubstantial. I think

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  the

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  Climate of opinion is influenced by a desire to avoid being accused of antisemitism. I think that powerful people can exert their influence in one way or another, and the anticipation of that influence being exerted is enough to keep people from straying too far from acceptable representations.

• 1:27:07Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's not working. It's making, you know, moderate people radical in a way that's not helpful to anybody. I just want to say I'm against it. I'm against radicalism in general. And that's not the way to win people over. I don't think it hasn't won. Why didn't someone just call you and say, hey, Glenn, this is like not your area. We're old friends. Why don't we have lunch and I'll kind of give you my perspective and like just talk it through?

• 1:27:34Speaker 02

  Well, some people have done it. Nobody at the Manhattan Institute.

• 1:27:38Tucker Carlson?

  What I'm saying, like, it doesn't, it doesn't help the, whatever cause they think they're advancing.

• 1:27:42Speaker 02

  We're in the land of speculation. I don't really know what happened. Okay. I don't know what conversations were had and I don't know what was said. I would have appreciated a call from Ryha.

• 1:27:54Tucker Carlson?

  Do you know how many lazy people are at think tanks? Like 99% of them, you're probably like the most productive person. I think, I mean, I'm not to be mean, but there are a lot of senior fellows at think tanks who don't do anything.

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  I do seem to have noticed that, yeah.

• 1:28:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Well, I have lived it. I've worked at a think tank and I'm not attacking anybody. It's like, it's an employment program. I got it. But I would think from the perspective of think tank, like, well, that's why I guess they hired you in the first place. It's like, good to have someone who's well-known, can explain himself well, and like, likes to work.

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  It's all good. I am at the end of a long career. I have, you know, a pretty good reputation as a scholar and as a public critic. My podcast is flourishing. I'm okay.

• 1:28:47Tucker Carlson?

  Are you worried about speech? I mean, because obviously the ability to think freely is at the heart of education. And, I mean, that is education. So are you worried about it? The state of it, speech in the United States?

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  I am, although independent media gives me hope.

• 1:29:09Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:10Speaker 02

  You know, that everybody has got the opportunity to be heard now. And pockets of influence can develop, emerge and flourish. And you can't stifle the conversation in the same way that you used to be able to. Because you could control a few of the portals of dissemination of information. Now that's not any longer possible.

• 1:29:37Tucker Carlson?

  How long do you think that'll last?

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  I think it's gonna just get

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  more capacious, I think. We're, I don't know, I'm, it's not my field, you know, about media. But I think we're on the verge of something, you know, revolutionary. Everybody's got an encyclopedia and a global translator in their pocket. Everybody can basically talk to everybody almost without restraint. So I actually wish that I were gonna live long enough to see what would come of this. But I'm 76, soon to be 77, so.

• 1:30:25Tucker Carlson?

  What happens to the universities?

• 1:30:35Speaker 02

  Well, there's a confrontation now. And I just read an interesting piece by Peter Berkowitz. I don't know if you know who he is. He's at the Hoover Institution. He's a political theorist.

• 1:30:47Speaker 02

  And he's talking about the Harvard Trump administration confrontation. And he's saying, on the one hand, yeah, Harvard had gotten a little lax in its

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  enforcement of restraint on the anti-Israel demonstrators and had gotten very woke and it's kind of.

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  Latter day, modernist relativism of the humanities and the social sciences. And that those are things that can be critiqued, he says. On the other hand, he says, the Trump administration's cancellation midstream of commitments to funding and wholesale assault in demanding to be able to dictate curriculum in hiring decisions of Harvard was over the top and some of it he doubted what's going to survive in the courts. He says, in effect, this is almost a quote, "Both sides stand to get bloodied if they end up in court with one another for different reasons." So what about a compromise?

• 1:31:50Speaker 02

  And the compromise would involve, according to Berkowitz's thinking, basically Harvard conceding that, yeah, its curriculum had gotten too far left and anti-Western, and there should be an effort to stand up a school within the university who's of general education, whose purposes would be more affirming of the Western cultural inheritance. And that while the school would be an independent entity that has have its own faculty and whatnot, the undergraduates would be required to take some courses in the school as a part of what a Harvard education would mean.

• 1:32:31Speaker 02

  So that's a kind of a concession to the critics of the drift left of the curriculum and faculty. And that the administration would back off of its peremptory gangster-type tactics of trying to gut the whole enterprise. And, you know, I think there's, that's worth thinking about. What happens to the university? Well, I've said recently in a public statement that I think, you know, if you ask what's going on in the university outside of the politicized discourses.

• 1:33:09Speaker 02

  What's going on in the sciences and so on? What's going on in the social sciences at the very best places in terms of the, you know, state of economics as a discipline? For example, psychology is a discipline, for example. What's going on in humanities where people are writing important books where they're discovering new things about history, where they are examining in a critical way? Culture, not all of it is from the left. The US universities are sources of excellence and of exquisite human achievement. We have the best institutions in the world.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  And that's a tremendous boon, both in terms of the straight up, people want to come here and study, but also in terms of the spillover benefits and not only in the sciences and engineering and the patents, but also in the quality of the American cultural footprint in global affairs. We don't want to squander that over a politicized campaign to stamp out wokeness inspired by the fact that people don't like anti IDF demonstrations emanating from the student body. That's the tail wagging the dog here. Take the long view.

• 1:34:35Speaker 02

  We want to cultivate these excellent centers of human intellectual achievement. And I think that's the position I try to defend.

• 1:34:46Tucker Carlson?

  Why is a college better than YouTube?

• 1:34:50Speaker 02

  Well, I'm a teacher who taught his last class at Brown University after nearly 50 years of college teaching. In that last class, I engaged my students in open ended conversation.

• 1:35:09Speaker 02

  We talked about ideas and I reminisced about what we had done over the course of the semester. The course was on race and inequality and we'd read widely. I got a letter from one of my students recently appreciating me and hoping that my post-teaching endeavors would flourish and saying that I had changed his life. That I had shown him something that he didn't realize before, which was the fact that even though he recoiled against the conservative tone of some of my arguments, that he realized

• 1:35:51Speaker 02

  that there was stuff that he had never thought about before that he needed to think about. And he said that he was better off for thinking about them, inspired by me, inspired by my example. He says, "Your eloquence," this is me patting myself on the back, but I'm just telling you what the kid said, "and your passion." You know, and this is from face-to-face encounter twice a week for 90 minutes with 20 people sitting around a table and me taking them by the hand and leading them through a corpus of work on a sensitive and important set of questions. I don't know that YouTube can do that for you. When AI gets to the point that the bot on the other side of the screen has the same

• 1:36:36Speaker 02

  degree of empathy, eloquence, erudition, passion, and curiosity that I have, well, they won't need me, will they?

• 1:36:47Tucker Carlson?

  Professor, thank you.

• 1:36:49Speaker 02

  My pleasure.

• 1:36:50Tucker Carlson?

  Very much. We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people. While you're here, do us a favor, hit follow and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter, telling the truth always. You will not miss it if you follow us on Spotify and hit the bell. We appreciate it. Thanks for watching.