Spooky Listen! Jack the Ripper | CLUES Podcast

**There is no ad-free version of this episode since it's not part of Heart Starts Pounding ** Today I’m sharing a special bonus episode from Clues, where Morgan Absher and I dig into the chilling mystery of Jack the Ripper. In 1888, a brutal killer stalked London’s Whitechapel district, leaving behind mutilated victims, taunting letters, and a mystery that still grips the world. Jack the Ripper claimed at least five lives, and more than a century later, the clues he left continue to baffle experts and fuel debate. We’re diving into the evidence, the suspects, and the chilling theories surrounding one of history’s most infamous unsolved cases. Clues is a Crime House Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Follow wherever you get your podcasts or listen here:https://www.pavestudios.com/lp/clues

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kaelyn Moore?

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• 0:43Kaelyn Moore?

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• 1:24Kaelyn Moore?

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• 2:05Speaker 01

  This is Crime House.

• 2:09Kaelyn Moore?

  In London in 1888, a series of mutilation murders would torment the public. Five women across Whitechapel would be found brutally dismembered. The killer was precise, cruel to the point of inhumanity, and ultimately never caught. And while we don't have a first and last name for him, we do have a moniker that is still as much of a household name today as it was more than 130 years ago: Jack the Ripper.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  We've talked about modern cases with multiple victims, but there's something about these murders that has really shaped serial killer lore. Plus, there's the fact that Jack the Ripper still remains a mystery. Or do they? Numerous people have dedicated their entire lives to unmasking Jack, and we may be closer to solving these cases than we think.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Hi, guys. Welcome back to Clues, where we sneak past the crime scene tape to explore the key evidence behind some of the most gripping true crime cases.

• 3:15Kaelyn Moore?

  I'm Kaelyn Moore, and I'm going to be digging into the timelines, the backstories, and the case files on these cases.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  And I'm your internet sleuth, Morgan Absher. I'm the one who's diving into the Reddit forums to talk about everything I can find online and pulling out the threads that just don't add up.

• 3:29Kaelyn Moore?

  And at Crime House, we value your support. So please share your thoughts on social media. Remember to rate, review, and follow Clues to help others discover the show. For bonus episodes, early access, and ad-free listening, join our Crime House Plus community on Apple Podcasts.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  More on the case and the clues that defined it right after this quick break.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Okay, we are kicking off spooky season with this one. And it is a big one. I will warn you guys. I didn't know a lot about this case until prepping and doing the research. Of course, we hear about Jack the Ripper all the time in, like, pop culture media references. But wow, this case gets a little gory. So if you're looking for more traditional spooky, maybe wait a couple of weeks until we get into Salem.

• 4:13Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, we're going to be covering the witch trials, which will also be very spooky and historical and informative.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, this was a lot. I'm like, they didn't talk about this on Bridgerton, like...

• 4:25Kaelyn Moore?

  You're like, if it's not in Bridgerton, I haven't heard of it.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Gosh, I'm just like, I was really going through the details. I'm like, okay, these clues, like, everything you guys are gonna get into today with us, it's, it's pretty crazy.

• 4:37Kaelyn Moore?

  It's a gory one, and we're going, we're gonna talk about the gore a little bit. So, obviously, we're not gonna show the gore, but if you're watching this episode on YouTube, you are gonna see some photos and maps and other assets that will help you kind of put the pieces together as we're telling the story. And if you're not watching, if you're just listening, you can find those same images on our Instagram, that's at Clues Podcast. Well, Morgan, you kind of kicked it off by saying today's case is massive, and it is. People have been trying to solve this for 137 years. And I also, I can't even stress how many podcasts I've listened to where they're like, we've solved it, we've cracked it. No one has. It's still an ongoing mystery, which is why today, we wanted to really give the full overview. We want to really try to pack in as much stuff as we can on

• 5:20Kaelyn Moore?

  this case. The known facts and the timelines, the clues that are most likely to be authentic, and the suspects and details that we personally found the most interesting, underappreciated, and also the most likely to be true. There's a lot of lore in this case, but we tried to sort through that when we were doing the research. And because of that, for the purposes of this episode, we're gonna stick to what sometimes referred to as the canonical five, the killings that most sources, old and new, agree were committed by Jack the Ripper. There are several other killings where experts say Jack was responsible. There's several other killings, really around the world, where people say Jack the Ripper was responsible. We'll talk about those a little bit later in the episode, but for now, what we want

• 6:04Kaelyn Moore?

  to do as we go through the timeline is talk about the canonical five.

• 6:07Speaker 02

  And one last thing before we dive in, we've said this case is gonna be gory, it is a bit of a heavy one, so I really just want to be clear and warn everyone that there are gonna be a lot of graphic descriptions of violence, including discussions of extreme sexual violence and mutilation of the deceased. As always, we'll do our best to talk about victims with compassion and dignity, but these were particularly brutal murders, and there's no way to tell you the basic facts of these cases without also sharing some pretty disturbing stuff. So, with that in mind, let's dive in.

• 6:40Kaelyn Moore?

  So to understand how Jack the Ripper got away with some of the most vicious murders ever recorded, we need to understand the area he was killing in a little bit more. So, the word slum barely

• 6:53Kaelyn Moore?

  Covers Whitechapel at the time. The East End district on the north bank of the River Thames, just east of the Tower of London is where Whitechapel is. It's a short walk from Grandeur and it felt like this totally other world inside of London. So London's population was really exploding at the time, but there weren't things like new housing, jobs, or social support for any of the people coming into the area. You had Irish families that were fleeing famine. You had Russian Jews who were escaping their circumstances. They were all pouring in through docks. They were crowding the nearby streets. There's also language barriers and desperation that kind of fed sweatshops and turf gangs. Merchants raged at being undercut.

• 7:34Kaelyn Moore?

  Diseases were spreading in rooms that were packed with so many people. And many of these people were in condemned buildings also. In parts of the East End, more than half of the children died before age five. Then there was the dark that was happening at the time. Industrial smog and the infamous London fog smothered the alleys. And in Whitechapel, street lamps were really scarce. So after Last Call at the Bars, everywhere in Whitechapel would go pitch black. Even the police were afraid of some of these alleyways because it was so dark and there was so much violence happening there that they refused to patrol some of the streets that didn't have lights.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm scared of the dark. There'd be no chance I'd be walking down those roads.

• 8:20Kaelyn Moore?

  Terrifying. And you know, as all of this is happening, women really bore the brunt of a lot of this violence. So there were a lot of sailors that were coming in and out of the area through the ports. And that really exploded kind of like the sex industry at the time. The poorest women in the area often faced this brutal choice. They could either starve or they could enter sex work, not have any protection, but at least be able to feed themselves and sometimes their children. Violence against sex workers was incredibly common at the time, and it was rarely punished. As journalist Florence Fenwick Miller wrote in 1888, "Women were routinely brutalized, sometimes killed, and if they survived..."

• 9:02Kaelyn Moore?

  The law often called it, quote, "common assault." Basically, at this time in London, if you were to scream out murder in the middle of the street, no one would even look twice. Whitechapel didn't just host Jack the Ripper. It made his work easier and his escape, night after night, far more likely. So that brings us to mother of five, Mary Ann Nichols, who also went by the name of Polly. That's how I'll refer to her. She was born on August 26th, 1845. Despite living on the East End in a horrible situation, she had somewhat of a chance at life. Her dad is a blacksmith who was able to support her into early adulthood. At age 19, she marries a man who works for a commercial printing business.

• 9:47Kaelyn Moore?

  But from what we know, Polly's marriage isn't really a happy one. In part, it's because she is really struggling with alcohol addiction at this time in her life. Now divorce at the time is incredibly rare. So married couples who didn't get along usually just stayed together, but they would live apart. So essentially Polly and her husband William would separate and reunite throughout the years, but often they lived apart from each other. And every time Polly would move out, her children would stay with William, but he would send her a little bit of money as what he called maintenance for Polly. During this time too, both of them have other partners. They're not really considering themselves married to each other.

• 10:25Kaelyn Moore?

  And then in 1882, William catches wind that Polly is probably doing sex work. And everything changes at that moment. He just decides that he's not going to support her anymore. He doesn't want to give money to her if this is the life that she's going to live. He ends up contacting the church and he argues that he shouldn't be expected to raise their five kids by himself and support Polly financially. And of course, as everyone listening can imagine, the church sides with him. They're like, yeah, of course you don't need to support your wife anymore. So at this point, Polly, who's now 37 years old, is penniless. There's not really many options for a woman in her position. She can't necessarily go out and get a job.

• 11:10Kaelyn Moore?

  So there's a little bit of pittance that she makes as a low end sex worker. But that is really all of the money that she's making at this time. Soon she gets confined to the first of many workhouses where she's going to live over the next six years. Workhouses in London at the time are kind of similar to how the asylum system in America worked in like the 1900s.

• 11:33Kaelyn Moore?

  But they're a little bit more prisons for the poor. Inmates wear identical uniforms there. They're forced to perform manual labor whenever they're not sleeping or eating spursed meals. And part of this, we had this in the United States too, but like being that poor is illegal in Victorian London. In America, we called it being a vagrant, where you could just get thrown in jail for being that destitute essentially. But anyone who needs governmental assistance in London at the time can legally be confined to a workhouse and they can just get free labor from this person. And people in these workhouses, I mean, the situation was horrible. People are packed in like sardines. There's little to no medical care. So think of all the weird Victorian illnesses that were spreading at the time.

• 12:19Kaelyn Moore?

  Smallpox, measles. All of those outbreaks are just happening constantly in these workhouses. Also, kind of making things worse, Polly can't come and go as she wants. She has to stay there unless she has what they decide is a reasonable notice to leave. And that requires a whole administrative process of getting that approved. So you can't just leave and come as you want to in these workhouses. So obviously Polly hates the system, as we can all imagine. And every time she manages to get out on reasonable notice, she goes back to sex work. She's trying to make some money for herself. But every time she leaves and does this, she gets in trouble with the law, basically. Either for the sex work that she's doing or for sleeping on the streets.

• 13:02Kaelyn Moore?

  And they just send her to another workhouse. Occasionally, she has these periods of ill health, so she'll get sent to an infirmary instead. But then when she's well enough, they just send her straight back to the workhouse system. It's this horrible, horrible cycle. On May 12th, 1888, 42-year-old Polly leaves the workhouse that she's in for what she thought was a really good opportunity. See, the workhouse has procured her a job as a live-in domestic servant with a family in Wandsworth, which is this like wealthy area in South London. Wealthier families at the time often asked women's workhouses to match them with potential household servants.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  So wild.

• 13:43Kaelyn Moore?

  It's so wild. The Victorian era was just like horrible. Polly writes to her father and tells him the good news. She says, quote, "I just write to say you will be glad to know that I'm settled in my new place and all going right up to now. My people went out yesterday and have not returned, so I'm left in charge. It is a grand place inside with trees and gardens back to front. All has been newly done up. They are teetotalers and religious, so I ought to get on. They're very nice people and I have not too much to do." And what this basically translates to is this was a sober household. And Polly ultimately thinks that this is going to be good for her. Within two months of her working at this place, though, it looks like the situation sours.

• 14:27Kaelyn Moore?

  And in mid-July, Polly takes off from this house. And while she does so, she steals some of her employer's clothing on the way out. And that's when she moves into Wilmot's Lodging House in an area that's right next to White Chapel called Spitalfields. This lodging house is basically a cheap motel that they call a Doss House. We're going to use that term a lot in this episode, a Doss House. There, Polly shares a room with her friend Emily Holland, as well as three other women. And all Doss Houses charge the same for rent. It's going to be four pence a night, and that is what they call Doss money. But even splitting the Doss money five ways, it's really hard for Polly to make enough for her share.

• 15:11Kaelyn Moore?

  She can basically manage her nightly rent, but she has to get food, she has to get other supplies for herself, and also she is struggling with alcohol addiction. And so in order to kind of like keep herself from having withdrawals, she has to support her drinking habit. We were able to find that a glass of gin at the pub that was nearby cost three pence. And so she basically needs several drinks a night. To stave off these symptoms of alcohol withdrawal, which, you know, can be deadly too. So she's basically forced to spend this money. And on August 24th, 1888, Polly moves into a different boarding house, one where the women can share beds with men.

• 15:54Kaelyn Moore?

  And this is because that allows sex work to happen and she can make a little bit more money this way. And the one that she moves into is called the White House. Within a week, Polly wants to leave her situation. She wants to leave the White House for one reason or another. And she wants to return to the shared room that she was sharing with those other girls at Wilmots. So around 12:30 a.m. on Friday, August 31st, she leaves a local pub and she heads back to Wilmots. But she gets kicked out of the house because she hasn't paid her DOS money for the night. Drunkenly, she promises that she'll go out, she'll figure out how to get the money and then she'll be back soon. So, "Hold the room for me." And as she's leaving, she actually tells the people working there

• 16:37Kaelyn Moore?

  that she has this nice new black bonnet on and she expects that that's going to help her attract some customers. So everyone who's working at the place knows exactly what she's going to go do. She also has on a fairly new dress. Some people have suggested that it was one that she had stolen from her former employer. And now, sex workers like Polly at the time typically charge two to three pence for their services, depending on a myriad of things, like what the customer requests. So in theory, she only has to find one or two customers so she can make her money and sleep in a room for the night. She leaves around 1:40 a.m. And around 2:30 in the morning, she happens to run into her roommate, Emily Holland, who's walking home after watching a fire at the docks. And Polly tells Emily

• 17:22Kaelyn Moore?

  that she's made her DOS money several times over that night, just in the time that she's been gone. But she also confesses that she keeps spending that money on drinking. But now the pubs are closed, so she tells Emily that she's gonna go look for one more client. And if she can't find one, she'll just go back to the White House and she'll share a man's bed for the night. And she'll try again the next day. Emily and Polly part ways, they go in separate directions, and Emily makes a note that Polly is walking east. And about an hour later, around 3:30 in the morning, Polly's walking down Bucks Row, which is one of the streets in Whitechapel that's home to working people who can afford to rent cottages. And she meets someone while she's there.

• 18:05Kaelyn Moore?

  Now, maybe she thinks this person is paying customer, or maybe it's someone lying in wait, maybe it's someone following her. We will never know for sure. But I don't even know if she really sees what's happening in the thick London fog. But this man has a knife. And if Polly does see it, she doesn't make a sound. And right underneath the bedroom of a sleeping family, the man quickly cuts her throat twice. The second gash goes all the way down to her vertebrae, it practically decapitates her. And then, not finished with the attack, he slices her abdomen multiple times, inflicting either one or two severe wounds that expose her intestines and her stomach.

• 18:49Kaelyn Moore?

  Then he stabs her twice in the genitals. And moments later, around 3:45 in the morning, a delivery carriage driver named Charles Cross walks down Bucks Row on his way to work. And Charles, as he's walking, practically trips over Polly's body. And it's, remember, it's so dark at the time, he doesn't even really know what he stumbled on. And he reaches down and touches her arm, and he finds that above the elbow, she's still warm. So if she is dead, which kinda looks like she is, but she hasn't been for very long. Whoever did this, though, is nowhere to be seen. There's no easy way to call for the police at the time, and Charles is on his way to work, and he can't really be late.

• 19:31Kaelyn Moore?

  So he ends up pulling down Polly's skirt to cover her up and give her a little bit of dignity in the situation. And then he hurries on his way, knowing that he'll likely see an officer, a patrolling constable, someone on his route to work. And sure enough, just a few blocks later, Charles runs into an officer and he tells him what he saw. Meanwhile, at the crime scene, a different officer has separately stumbled upon the body, and things very quickly escalate from here. Before four in the morning, a doctor arrives on the scene, and he officially pronounces Polly dead. He says that she couldn't have been gone, quote, "but a few minutes." So that basically means when Charles found her, he was mere moments away from seeing who did this.

• 20:16Kaelyn Moore?

  And that very morning, the Star newspaper runs a report on the crime, and the writer who has remained unnamed all this time, having seen the body himself, says, quote, "No murder was ever more ferociously and brutally done." And that headline really sets off all of London, and it really marks the beginning of the Ripper's reign of terror.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  And with that, our trail of clues begins. Starting with clue number one, we have Polly's wounds. Since all of these murders occurred clearly before modern forensics, similarities in the MO was what was really looked at in these olden crimes. And so looking at the victims' wounds is what really helped all of these officers, constables, kind of know that this was a different killer. This is a new killer that they might not have seen before. According to the medical examiner at the time, Jack used a six-to-eight-inch bladed knife, moderately sharp, and may have even been left-handed. And left-handedness was something that was very stigmatized in the Victorian era, as it had been throughout much of European history.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  I feel like, honestly, even my uncle growing up, like, was left-handed, but they made him Switch, so.

• 21:32Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, yeah, my dad too. No, they literally thought it was like demons.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  It was evil.

• 21:35Kaelyn Moore?

  In Victorian era.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Evil.

• 21:38Kaelyn Moore?

  Comment if you're watching this video and you would have been thought of as demonic for being left-handed in the Victorian era.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  I would have been stoned. I had like vampire teeth before braces, so I would have been out for sure.

• 21:48Kaelyn Moore?

  A woman with vampire teeth? No, you're done.

• 21:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, done. And so kind of correlating this ferocious crime with maybe a left-handed person, it was really kind of spread around that like this person could have practiced witchcraft or could have habits of a criminal, clearly left-handed stabbing people. So if Jack was left-handed, it would have cut down the suspect pool considerably. Jack also had managed to kill Polly so quietly that those sleeping families on the street didn't hear anything, no screams, not a peep, meaning it also must have been pretty quick, no hesitation. And again, maybe lying in wait, maybe in the frame of a door or watching, following her in the fog. And there

• 22:31Speaker 02

  also were severe abdominal wounds. And Polly was wearing what are called stays, super different than modern bras. It was like this tight, boned garment meant to shape the body under the clothing, similar to a corset, but like made way better and differently. And her killer seemingly didn't undress her or attempt to cut the stays while slicing her abdomen, meaning they were likely maneuvering the stays and getting their hand under. I should also note Polly's organs were exposed but not removed. And something the medical examiner really finds interesting with Polly's

• 23:11Speaker 02

  autopsy, there wasn't any evidence of recent sexual intercourse. So Jack didn't sexually assault her either. And because Polly was on duty as a sex worker that night and had just told her friend that she had customers, you know, a couple of times over to pay for the Doss house rent. One possible explanation for this could be that due to the high rates of STDs back in Victorian times and the threat of pregnancy, even at the age of 43, it's kind of speculated that Polly might have been selling other acts besides. Just like vaginal intercourse.

• 23:43Kaelyn Moore?

  That's interesting. I didn't know about that before we started researching this.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:47Kaelyn Moore?

  That's, yeah, obviously they're concerned about pregnancy and STDs at the time.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  So it's still this weird juxtaposition for everyone noting that whoever did this crime stabbed Polly in the genitals multiple times. And so because of that, a lot of the investigators at this time kind of like point to this being pickarism, which is when the killer uses stabbing as a method and they look at the knife as their own sexual organ and they get off, they get pleasure from performing these stabbings, especially in intimate areas like the genitals. It's, it's sex for them.

• 24:26Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, which we just covered the Idaho.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  I know.

• 24:29Kaelyn Moore?

  Case. And that was something that like we talked a lot about and people online were talking about a lot.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:34Kaelyn Moore?

  Was that something that was motivating him?

• 24:36Speaker 02

  And it's so interesting that even throughout time, it just like keeps repeating itself.

• 24:40Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  It's still present. And so more recently even in 2005, forensic professionals, including Robert Keppel, a legendary detective specializing in serial killers, published a scholarly analysis of Jack Threpper's whole MO. They diagnosed him with certainty as someone displaying pickarism by pointing out that he stabbed all victims far more times than necessary to just kill them. And there's actually a later analysis that says Jack might've been acting out a different but related sexually violent compulsion, which is necrosadism, meaning he was getting sexual gratification specifically from mutilating the dead. Either way, it seems that Jack was absolutely sexually motivated in some way.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  And maybe for him, the murder itself was a sex act.

• 25:30Kaelyn Moore?

  The week after Polly died, the first week of September in 1888, the murder was all over the papers and it became such a hot topic around the East End. There was enough interest from the public that Polly's funeral arrangements were kept secret to prevent gawkers from lining the streets.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a really interesting thing I've learned about this era is like funerals, like people would show up and there was like windows with the dead in them that people would like line up and go view.

• 25:58Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, yeah. No, the Victorian era London, especially because these people were so obsessed with true crime and they didn't have documentaries. They only got it from the papers. So people would show up to crime scenes.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there were 158 papers at the time. Sherlock Holmes was in its heyday. This was like the best selling series. So people were obsessed. This is like really when true crime was going nuts. The origins of our true crime baddies.

• 26:24Kaelyn Moore?

  I had, we do a Heart Starts Pruning episode on that. If you listen to our Who Killed Seville Kent episode? It's all about Victorian era true crime obsession and how that affected crime scenes. But yeah, so they can't even publicize her funeral because they know people are just gonna show up and try to gawk. So even if the people in Whitechapel didn't really care much about the welfare of sex workers, or I would say women in general, or poor people, or like anyone but themselves, they were pretty interested in how brutal this particular murder was. And not to mention, they were all really freaked out that they could be next. People on Buck's Row, especially, that was the area where Polly was killed. They were worried about the killer lurking in the same spot again.

• 27:05Kaelyn Moore?

  So anyone who could avoid that area at night did, but not everyone was able to. And one of the women that unfortunately did have to frequent this area was Annie Chapman. She was a 47 year old widow. Now Annie has a lot in common with Polly. She was in her 40s. She was a mother. One of her three children had died and actually another one of them was institutionalized due to a disability. So Annie lived at a Doss House in nearby Spitalfields, where she paid her nightly rent with sex work after she lost her husband's financial support. Annie and her husband John split up sometime around 1884, 1885, but he kept supporting her until he ultimately died in 1886.

• 27:49Kaelyn Moore?

  And just like Polly, Annie was forced into a bad situation. She had no other options really for how she could make money.

• 27:57Kaelyn Moore?

  Unfortunately for her as well, she developed this alcohol addiction. And a lot of the money she was supposed to spend on her nightly DOS money was going to buying alcohol. And exactly one week after Polly's murder, Annie's night started off eerily similar to how Polly's last night started. On the evening of Friday, September 7th, 1881, Annie isn't feeling well. She leaves her new DOS house sometime around 5:00 PM. She's got to look for customers, even though she's not feeling well, she has to find customers so she can pay. Now Annie, at the time, had chronic tuberculosis. She also potentially had syphilis, which both were incurable and potentially lethal at the time if you did not have access to proper care.

• 28:43Kaelyn Moore?

  So she returned home around 11:30 PM and had no DOS money. But she was able to get a baked potato beer and some medicine for herself. At 1:00 AM, she has to leave again. She returns at 1:35 AM, at which point the night watchman is like, listen, you're not getting in here unless you have your money. You keep going out and coming back with food, like pay me or figure something else out. But she doesn't have the money. So she asks if she can speak to the manager, who at the DOS house is called a deputy. And just like Polly, she tells this deputy that she plans to go out and earn the DOS money. And she assures them she's going to be back shortly with this money. She asks that they don't give away her usual bed to another lodger before she's able to make it back.

• 29:28Kaelyn Moore?

  And then Annie leaves. Now around 5:30 in the morning, a local woman named Elizabeth Long sees a woman who she later identified as Annie, talking to a man at 29 Hanbury Street, which is just a mile from the site of Polly's murder. Shortly before 6:00 AM, a man named John Davis, who's a delivery driver living on the third floor at 29 Hanbury Street, he leaves his house to go to work. And when he steps outside, he finds Annie's body in the backyard. And the scene is absolutely shocking. Now, not only has Annie been viciously mutilated,

• 30:10Kaelyn Moore?

  But it looks like her body has been posed. Her legs are spread out and they're pushed up towards her chest. Just like Polly, Annie died of a knife wound to the throat. There was a cut so deep, it nearly decapitated her. And also like Polly, her abdomen is sliced open and her organs are exposed. Now, John runs to the police station and he makes a report and the constables go straight to the scene. And by 6:30 in the morning, a coroner named Dr. George Bagster Phillips arrives and he guesses that Annie may have died around two hours before they found her, so sometime around 4:30 in the morning. But he later acknowledges that, you know, there's a chance that her body cooled rapidly because it was pretty cold out that morning.

• 30:55Kaelyn Moore?

  So she actually could have been killed even more recently, somewhere between 5:30 and 6:00 a.m., which would have also meant that they were just minutes away from seeing who did this. And you know, the scene is so bad that most people who come by can't even really look at it, but Dr. Phillips has to keep examining the body and he notices more and more strange things about the scene. Now, first of all, her abdomen has not just been sliced open. Unlike the previous victim, some of her organs had been removed. Now, I mean, this part is really intense, you guys, but Annie's intestines had been severed and they had been placed on her left shoulder.

• 31:39Kaelyn Moore?

  But what is even more horrific, the more that the doctor looks at her body, is he realizes that her uterus, part of her vagina and part of her bladder are gone.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  And these missing organs would seem like a pretty big clue number two, but this has been pretty hotly debated. Most experts agree with the original case reports at the time that the killer did remove organs from the victims himself, but I did find one devoted riprologist, and these are people who just... Really make studying Jack the Ripper their thing. Riprologists, it's a whole thing. So they think that Jack just mutilated the bodies and coroners or people working at the mortuaries were the ones actually removing the organs. They think that maybe they sold them to medical schools, which really needed as many human organs as they could get for practice, for surgeries.

• 32:34Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, they were digging up a lot of bodies at graveyards at the time.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:38Kaelyn Moore?

  And selling them to schools.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Grave robbing was a huge thing. And so a lot of people even speculated that most doctors at the time would actually go grave rob themselves. And so.

• 32:49Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, yeah, no, in America at the time, like Harvard had like a bring your own body to school policy for the people who were admitted to their program. So you had to go out and get a body from a graveyard and then bring it to dissect it. If you were a freshman at Harvard at the time.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Wasn't there a modern Ivy League school even that like one of their professors was caught?

• 33:09Kaelyn Moore?

  It was Harvard. It was the guy that worked in the mortuary. We have a heart throbbing episode on it, but yeah, he was selling the organs mostly to this guy Jeremy in Tennessee. But like.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Okay, so like again plausible.

• 33:20Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  So, and again, Victorian times. So, you know, how good is this documentation and things like that? But this riprologist, that's their theory there. And they do have somewhat of an argument for that theory. Because they kind of speculate that Jack had to be skilled in removing human organs in order to do it so quickly, in the dark, outdoors, police bearing down on them in any minute.

• 33:46Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, because we've talked about it. There's a chance that in this situation, it was like 15 minutes that he had before someone was on the scene.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:54Kaelyn Moore?

  So it was fast.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  It was super fast. And the coroner himself even said like, it would have taken me and my expertise at least 15 minutes. So this person had to have been pretty skilled to be this quick and thorough. I know exactly what they were getting and kind of what they wanted to do. So this brings up a lot of big questions. Did Jack have some sort of specialized training in either surgery, autopsies, butchery, maybe? A lot of modern investigators do think so. The coroner's report after Annie's autopsy literally says, quote, "Obviously, the work was that of an expert."

• 34:30Speaker 02

  There was a 1988 FBI profile, and this was done in an attempt to shed new light on the murders on their 100-year mark. And it actually dismissed the idea that Jack was a doctor or surgeon. The FBI thought that he might have been either a butcher, a mortuary worker, a hospital aide, or maybe even a medical examiner's assistant. They kind of speculated that because there was actually a wet leather apron, possibly worn during the murder, that was found lying nearby Polly's body. This causes Jack to receive the nickname Leather Apron temporarily, before Jack the Ripper catches on. And not to mention, several of the sex workers who knew Polly mentioned a man who had been wearing a leather apron,

• 35:13Speaker 02

  tormenting women in the area with threats. The Jack the Butcher idea did have a lot going for it, especially if he specialized in pigs, which are anatomically very similar to humans. I mean, they're actually using pig organs in human transplants nowadays. Mind-blowing. So the police at the time also kind of liked this butcher theory. And so they actually ended up going and visiting 76 different butcher and slaughterhouse workers as potential suspects during the course of their investigation. But even if their suspect was a butchery, why remove the organs? Why take them with you?

• 35:53Kaelyn Moore?

  I would assume it's trophies.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  One would think trophies. Investigators, both old and modern, kind of look at three different possibilities, which is profit, sexual motivation, cannibalism. I mean, we've got modern serial killers that practice cannibalism, so that's not out of the realm of possibility. And maybe we'll get into that a bit more when we talk about a later clue we have. But for now, we're going to stick to sex and money, two motivators that come up over and over again in serial killer cases. If Jack was living in poverty, like many in Whitechapel, some experts think he could have been harvesting them to sell, and that could have been his entire motivation to even kill.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  And while he wouldn't have gotten rich selling these organs to medical schools, he did pick organs like the uterus that were in pretty high demand, so at least it would have been substantial. But even that theory, I mean, killing multiple women, even women on the fringes of society that were... Very looked down upon, not really cared about. It's a pretty big risk to take on killing women just for a little bit of extra money.

• 37:03Kaelyn Moore?

  I imagine it would have been easier just to find women to dig up and take their organs and sell them.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  I know. I mean, grave robbing was a popular thing.

• 37:11Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  And so that's why the FBI profilers actually thought that Jack wasn't totally jobless, because he killed on the weekends, suggesting that maybe he had a Monday to Friday job that left him with no time or energy to hunt victims on the weekdays. So that kind of leaves the sexual compulsion theory, which is the theory that is favored by the 2005 analysis performed by Robert Keppel. And Keppel really just kind of gets into that pickarism and goes deeper into that rabbit hole. He also kind of goes further that maybe this was also a part of humiliating the victims and the women by posing them and, again, mutilating them even further than necessary. And as for stealing the organs, if it was sexually motivated, he probably kept them, as you said, Kaelyn, trophies.

• 37:57Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, that's what I would imagine.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Cute little jars, which we're gonna get into with one of our suspects.

• 38:02Kaelyn Moore?

  Or like an Ed Gein kind of thing of like, "I just want to keep this because it makes me feel close to it, or it reminds me of someone, or..."

• 38:13Speaker 02

  I think like, I don't know.

• 38:14Kaelyn Moore?

  It reminds me of the brutality. I don't know.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  This is something like, oh, I don't know. I can't. I like can't with this. I'm like, I cannot imagine seeing little organs in a jar. Like, no. No.

• 38:26Kaelyn Moore?

  I agree.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Like, as your trophy? No. Okay, let's get into our clue number three, which comes around three weeks after Annie's murder, maybe. There's no way to be sure it's real, but currently, most ripperologists seem to think so. On September 27th, 1888, London Central News Agency gets a handwritten letter, and it's the first document to actually coin the name "Jack the Ripper." Now, it was one of hundreds of letters supposedly from the killer that were mailed to police and reporters around this time. Most of them did turn out to be. Be hoaxes. I mean, again, you guys, like, there's 158 newspapers at the time trying to have the best story and sell their papers.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  And it was super easy to get away with sending anonymous letters to the police or media. So there were a lot of pranks involving fake letters from notorious public figures and things like that. But the September 27th letter, known as the Dear Boss Letter, does seem to be plausible. It could be real. I'm gonna read it for you guys, but I will add the spelling and handwriting are pretty good with this one. So if it is real, it's kind of speculated Jack was at least somewhat educated. It says, quote, "Dear boss, I keep on hearing the police have caught me, but they won't fix me just yet. I have laughed when they look so clever and talk about being on the right track. That joke about leather apron gave me real fits.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  I'm down on whores and I shan't quit ripping them till I do get buckled. Grand work the last job was. I gave the lady no time to squeal. How can they catch me now? I love my work and want to start again. You will soon hear of me with my funny little games. I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with, but it went thick like glue and I can't use it. Red ink is fit enough, I hope. Ha ha. The next job I do, I shall clip the lady's ear off and send to the police officers just for jolly, wouldn't you? Keep this letter back till I do a bit more work, then give it out straight. My knife's so nice and sharp, I want to get to work right away if I get a chance.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Good luck. Yours truly, Jack the Ripper. Don't mind me giving the trade name. P.S. Wasn't good enough to post this before I got all the red ink off my hands. Curse it, no luck yet. They say I'm a doctor now. Ha ha." That's the end of the letter. And that's how Jack the Ripper gets his name. Another, another serial killer. That's a self-namer. What is it with these guys? Unfortunately, the central news agency assumed it was just another weirdo messing with them, trying to get his letter in the papers. And so they don't take it seriously at the time, although they do forward the letter to police. But again, there's a lot of, lot of people, even other journalists from this time period,

• 41:22Speaker 02

  that speculate it was someone just trying to sell papers. So.

• 41:26Kaelyn Moore?

  Which we know, I mean, yeah, think about it, at the time, if people are buying true crime, and you have true crime to put in the newspaper and sell more papers, you're gonna do it.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  What's better to sell a paper than a letter from the killer himself?

• 41:38Kaelyn Moore?

  Absolutely.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  So, that's a tough one for me.

• 41:41Kaelyn Moore?

  So, three days later, they were forced to reconsider the letter because of what happened in just the wee hours of Sunday, September 30th. Elizabeth Stride was a farmer's daughter from Sweden. She began working as a servant girl at the age of 17. And within two years, she'd left that job. And then three years after that, the Swedish police put her on a list of known sex workers. At age 23, Elizabeth moved to London's Swedish parish, maybe with the promise of a servant job, or maybe she was just looking for a fresh start. And for a while, it really worked out for her. She met a coffee shop operator named John Stride in London, and the two got married in 1869.

• 42:20Kaelyn Moore?

  But, just like Polly and Annie, she had a troubled marriage, and it ended in permanent separation. And that was in part because she really struggled with alcohol addiction. By the start of the Ripper murders in 1888, Elizabeth is 45 years old. She's desperately poor. She's a habitual binge drinker who will sometimes disappear for days at a time. So she supports herself with, really, just the combination of the only two sources of income that a woman in her position can get. She does sex work, and she gets donations from the Swedish church. Now she has a boyfriend of about three years. It's this day laborer named Michael Kidney. But their relationship is tumultuous. It's violent.

• 43:04Kaelyn Moore?

  He even, at one point, I read about him trying to padlock her in a room just to keep her from going out to drink, which was kind of ironic because he himself had a police record for drunk and disorderly conduct. On September 26th, 1888, two and a half weeks after Annie's murder, Elizabeth shows up at a Doss house where she had previously rented a bed. And she said that she had just had this really big blowout fight with Michael, and she just needs a place to stay. So on Saturday, September 29th, Elizabeth stays in and she cleans rooms at the Doss house. The deputy, who's another woman named Elizabeth, Elizabeth Tanner, pays her sixpence for the help. And in the early evening, Elizabeth goes to the pub and she has a drink with the deputy, who the two of them seem to be friends.

• 43:49Kaelyn Moore?

  And she returns to the Doss house from the pub, but then leaves again sometime between seven and eight PM. And she has with her the sixpence that she received for cleaning. She appears, at least from some witness accounts, to be in a good mood. She was able to pay for her bed the night. And so maybe she just had somewhere else to be that evening and she was going out before coming back to go to sleep. At around 11:00 PM, she's seen by two laborers in Whitechapel. And she's tucked into a pub's doorway to avoid the rain. She's also kissing a man. This short, well-dressed man is how they described him. The laborers end up teasing her about the PDA and they kind of make the nice gesture of inviting the man to join them for a drink.

• 44:34Kaelyn Moore?

  But it appears that he and Elizabeth have already been in the pub and they were actually on their way out. Now, at 11:45, another laborer sees Elizabeth on the next street over and she's still kissing a man. Now, the descriptions of the man's attire does vary between witness accounts. So there's a chance that she was kissing the same man both times. There's a chance she was kissing two different men. But eyewitnesses sometimes describe details like clothing incorrectly. And given that she was kissing this man in both sightings, a lot of people believe that it was probably the same guy and that she maybe knew him. Which is kind of an interesting detail. Who was this well-dressed guy that she went to go see out in the rain,

• 45:19Kaelyn Moore?

  even though she didn't need to work that night to make her DOS money? Was he perhaps a well-off client? Was he a regular that she liked well enough to be seen kissing him at doorways? Maybe he was a boyfriend that she had?

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Either way, the testimony of the next two people to see Elizabeth that night is our fourth clue. Because those are potential sightings of the Ripper himself. At 12:35 a.m. on Sunday, September 30th, Police Constable William Smith spots Elizabeth in the company of a man on Burner Street. This is the same street where she was seen less than an hour earlier making out with her mystery man. This again, could be the same or a different guy. We really don't know. But Constable Smith says they were outside the International Working Men's Educational Club, which was a social club for men. And so it's plausible Elizabeth could have picked up a new date by waiting near the exit there. Smith describes the man he saw as about 28 years old,

• 46:18Speaker 02

  wearing a deerstalker hat and a dark coat and carrying a package wrapped in newspaper. He described the package as being six inches tall and 18 inches long. It makes me wonder if that could have been a knife. But again, Jack's knife was estimated from a corner to be about six to eight inches long. Not 18, 18 seems like, almost like a sword.

• 46:39Kaelyn Moore?

  Not really long.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Like really long, but hey, maybe he was wrapping in a way to disguise it. But again, we can't be clear. But 10 minutes later, two other men, Israel Schwartz and James Brown, both see Elizabeth. But in different locations. Israel notices Elizabeth standing at the gateway to Dutfield's Yard, a stable yard down the street from the social club. He sees a man approach, speak to her, then throw her to the ground, at which point she screams. But again, Victorian times, they didn't really care for women. And so Israel does nothing, just crosses the street and walks away. But he does notice another man nearby smoking a pipe.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  The first man who threw Elizabeth down actually apparently calls to the second man smoking and says, quote, "Lipski?"

• 47:31Kaelyn Moore?

  Which, there's a lot of debate over what that means. So, I mean Lipski was a slur for Jewish people at the time. And Lipski was also the name of another murderer at the time.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is really interesting. Like that, another connection to a murderer.

• 47:49Kaelyn Moore?

  Some people suggest that the man called to the second man saying like Lipski as in like, "I'm gonna Lipski her." Like he was going to murder her. Some people say that he was calling the other man a slur. So I've even seen someone suggest that they actually heard him wrong and maybe he was saying, "Lizzie" instead of Lipski, or was saying there's a Polish word that sounds like Lipski that meant something else. And so there's just a lot of confusion over what it meant that he heard.

• 48:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so Israel apparently, he wants no smoke. He's not getting involved. So he starts leaving the area on foot and that's when he realizes he's actually being followed by that second man. This is like, kind of the only hint we have that maybe Jack the Ripper could have had an accomplice. Which I could also kind of see, given like how quick and brazen these acts were. Like maybe someone was on lookout waiting for a constable or a carriage to roll up. But this is just what Israel said he saw and heard. He described the man with Elizabeth as about 30 years old with dark brown hair and a mustache, standing 5'5", wearing an overcoat and a wide-brimmed black felt hat.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Keep in mind, 5'5" was the average height of a British man at the time. So we can't assume this was the same person as the short man Elizabeth was seen making out with earlier. Then we have the witness statement from James Brown, which totally conflicts with Israel's. James says at around 12:45 a.m. that night, which is actually the same exact time as Israel, "He saw a woman, he later confirmed was Elizabeth, standing along the wall near a school." She was with a man and she was heard saying, quote, "No, not tonight, some other night." He noticed the man was about 5'7", stout, wearing a long coat and a hat. But that was all he could make out in the dark.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Afterwards, James walked to his house close by and 15 minutes later, he heard a woman yelling, quote, "Police, murder." But when he looked outside, he couldn't see anyone on the street. So it's possible maybe Israel and James got their timing slightly wrong. Maybe James saw Elizabeth first, Israel saw the beginning of the attack and James heard the end of it. Either way, it seems one of them might have spotted Jack the Ripper that night.

• 50:12Kaelyn Moore?

  Well, just 15 minutes after that, around 1:00 in the morning, a local jewelry dealer is driving his pony car into Dutfield's yard, where he is presumably planning on stabilizing the pony. And as they enter the pony box, and it won't go. And you work with horses, you know that they have this sixth sense for things.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  They do.

• 50:34Kaelyn Moore?

  It is pitch black in the yard. So the dealer ends up using his buggy whip to kind of poke around in front of the buggy, just to see if there's something there that maybe spooked his animal. And that's when he feels a human body. And it's warm. And because it's warm, the dealer presumes that it's actually just someone sleeping in the stable yard. It wouldn't be the first time that someone had gotten into that spot to sleep for the night. So he goes to the nearby International Working Men's Educational Club. It's the same club that Elizabeth was seen outside of earlier. And he finds two friends willing to come help wake this sleeping stranger so he can put his pony there. And when the three men return together, they realize that the body belongs to a woman

• 51:19Kaelyn Moore?

  and she is not sleeping. She is dead. And it's most likely from this single, deep slash to her throat that she has. Now, the incision severed her windpipe, making it impossible for her to scream as she was bleeding to death. And when the dealer realizes what he has just stumbled upon, his blood runs absolutely cold. Because he thinks back to how warm the body was when he first tried to wake this person who he thought was sleeping. So he realizes that this must have just happened. He most likely interrupted Jack the Ripper during the murder. And investigators later confirmed that this is the most likely scenario.

• 51:59Kaelyn Moore?

  That's why Elizabeth wasn't mutilated or posed in any sort of lewd way like the other victims. Jack maybe abandoned the body because he heard the cart turning into the stable yard. So when the dealer was examining the body with his whip, there's a chance that Jack was still in there. I mean, think about how pitch dark it was in there. Maybe that's what the pony was barking at. Then maybe he fled right when the dealer went to go fetch his friends. But then they start worrying that if they did interrupt Jack the Ripper, maybe he was frustrated that he wasn't able to mutilate the body in the way that he had done to the other women. So what if he fled this scene and then just went out into the night to go find another woman so he could basically complete what he set out to do?

• 52:44Kaelyn Moore?

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• 53:27Kaelyn Moore?

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• 53:45Kaelyn Moore?

  Catherine Eddows is a 46-year-old woman in 1888, but aside from her age, she's pretty different from the other victims that we've talked about thus far. She was born in the West Midlands of England. She was actually the only one in her family sent to school as a child, but she had this brief interruption in her education after she was orphaned. And that's when she was sent to her first workhouse. But her aunt soon took her in and then eventually sent her back to school. At around age 21, she met this Irishman named Thomas Conway, and she ran off with him, but they never got married, which soured relations with her aunt, who later refused to let her back into the house when she and Thomas ultimately separated.

• 54:28Kaelyn Moore?

  Thomas was this self-published biographer and also a songwriter. And Catherine kind of started a business with him, where she would sell his books and also sell these things that he wrote called gallows ballads. This was a way of passing along true crime stories in the Victorian era. So whenever a public execution was planned, these balladeers would essentially write out the confessions from the suspect's point of view. I mean, the ethics of it obviously is super weird, but they would write these songs as if they were the convicted, explaining the crime, talking about their confession, all this stuff. But they would set it to the tune of a well-known hymn.

• 55:09Kaelyn Moore?

  They could print these lyrics out and sell copies to the papers or just sell copies individually leading up to and during the execution itself. And the song "Long Black Veil" by Johnny Cash, if you guys know that song, is basically one of these ballads. Catherine was so enthusiastic about this form that she once sold a ballad to the audience at her own cousin's hanging. He wrote a song about her cousin, and she sold it, and they made some money from this. But it wasn't all business for Thomas and Catherine. They also had these three children, even though the two of them never married. In 1881, the couple did split up and Catherine, you know, landed right where any woman without much money in Whitechapel went, a Doss house.

• 55:53Kaelyn Moore?

  But initially, it doesn't seem like she became a sex worker like the earlier victims that we talked about.

• 56:00Kaelyn Moore?

  She begins dating this fruit seller, this guy named John Kelly, who, the two of them were monogamous for the rest of her life. Catherine sometimes worked as a cleaner. The couple did temporary farm work together on the outskirts of town. They were very poor. They often had to scrounge around for a few pence for their nightly bed and meal, but they seemed to be very good natured. They were well-liked by everyone else at this Doss house. And Catherine maybe didn't know this at the time, but by 1888, she had fairly advanced kidney disease. She knew that she didn't feel well, but she didn't know exactly what was going on. At the time, this was called Bright's disease. We talked about this in the Amy Archer episode. Bright's disease was kind of this catch-all term for kidney disease.

• 56:44Kaelyn Moore?

  And people blamed it on drinking because they didn't really know what caused it at the time. And now we know that Catherine wasn't a heavy drinker. She did drink occasionally, but she wasn't known to be a binge drinker or struggle with alcohol addiction. So most likely that's not how she got Bright's disease. But by Saturday, September 29th, Catherine is pretty down on her luck and she is in a lot of pain. She has really bad kidney inflammation that's causing this really, really bad back pain. Her boyfriend, John Kelly, that night pawns a pair of his boots so that he can afford to buy them a meal. But it's getting late and neither of them have the Doss money they need to pay for their bed that night. So Catherine decides that she's going to walk to her married daughter's house in southeast

• 57:29Kaelyn Moore?

  London and see if she can just get a little bit of money from her. We don't really know if she made it there, but it seems like she did not. Because by 8:00 PM, witnesses say that she fell down drunk on the pavement, which there was a whole crowd that kind of like came around her to gawk at her. Like I said, she wasn't known for binge drinking, but she did drink from time to time. So it looks like this night she was drunk. And police show up to see what's going on. They see this crowd looking at this woman and they end up taking Catherine to the drunk tank so that she can sober up. And around 1:00 a.m., now it's Sunday, September 30th. She convinces the constable in charge that she's ready to be released. She's sober now. She complains that she'll get a hiding or that is a beating for coming home so late.

• 58:14Kaelyn Moore?

  Though we don't know a ton about if the relationship she had with John Kelly was actually violent or if she meant hiding, more like a scolding. But the constable has very little sympathy for her and he tells her, you had no right to get drunk, but he still does let her go. She leaves on foot, but she's not heading back to the Doss house where her boyfriend is expecting her. She's heading back towards the area where she was found drunk. Maybe she had made arrangements to meet her daughter somewhere near there, or maybe she didn't want to come home to John too late without money. Or there's a chance too that she hoped the pub would still be open and she wanted to talk someone into buying her a drink.

• 58:56Kaelyn Moore?

  But she only makes it as far as Mitre Square, which is this tiny plaza almost a mile from where Elizabeth was killed. At about 1:35 in the morning, two men see Catherine on the street corner, talking to a man. And they describe this man as being about five foot seven. He has a fair complexion and he also has a mustache. He's wearing a gray hat. He has a red kerchief. They kind of assume that he's maybe a sailor. Obviously, they don't think much of this interaction. They both continue on their way. And just 10 minutes later, at 1:45 in the morning, a policeman patrolling Mitre Square stumbles upon Catherine's mutilated body.

• 59:40Kaelyn Moore?

  But this time, even though it's only been 10 minutes, it does not seem like anyone was interrupted while mutilating Catherine. The killing blow, just like with the other victims, is this deep, deep incision on her throat. Then, like Polly and Annie, she's been cut open with a large cut that ran from her sternum all the way down to her pubic area. And one of her diseased kidneys, as well as part of her uterus, has been removed from her body. Whoever did this, which obviously they believe is Jack the Ripper, made off with them. Also, like with Annie, the Ripper removed part of her intestines, but did leave them at the scene. They were laid across her body.

• 1:00:25Kaelyn Moore?

  And there was one piece of intestine that was placed carefully between her body and her left arm. But in this situation too, her face was also mutilated. There was part of one ear that was cut off and the missing piece later fell out of Catherine's clothing when she was undressed at the morgue. So that was something that was also removed, but left at the scene. It wasn't taken like a trophy. She's found posed with her right knee drawn up. Her bare thighs were exposed. And also, half of her white cloth apron has been cut off, including one of the strings.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  And that apron is clue number five for us. That same morning, around 2:55 AM, a policeman finds the missing piece of Catherine's apron streaked with blood three streets away on Goulston Street. It's found lying right underneath a fresh chalk graffiti reading, quote, "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing." Or something like that anyways. There's a lot of speculation on this graffiti. If you listen to some sources on this graffiti, they say the word is not in reference to Jewish people at all, but it's actually in reference to a word in the Freemasons Society that resembles Jews. And so there's a lot of speculation that

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  this could have been a message to other Freemasons. And nobody photographed this. And that might have also been intentional. In one of the sources, the constable, like the main police officer in London at the time, was speculated to be a Freemason. So he actually wiped this graffiti clean. Wiped it, no photographs before. And they did have photographs at this time, you guys. I did double track. So

• 1:02:08Kaelyn Moore?

  Should we write it as botched?

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  It feels like a botched, even in vintage times.

• 1:02:12Kaelyn Moore?

  Making a mark. And there's, there's a little bit of debate on how this word was spelled too, right?

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  A lot of debate on that. Um, a lot of the ripperologists get into it because some of them say the word was spelled J U W E S, which could have been French. It could have been the French feminine word for Jews, which is J U I V E S. But there's a lot of disagreement on more than just the spelling. Like the clue in general is just pretty controversial for a lot of people.

• 1:02:43Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, it could have been there before and he just happened to drop it there. Like it could have nothing to do with the actual thing.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  And obviously DNA testing isn't a thing. Like blood typing wasn't a thing. This was found so many streets over. Are we trying to fit the peg into the hole? Like, does it even fit? Is it even evidence?

• 1:03:01Kaelyn Moore?

  Totally.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  So this one's very hotly debated, but if we assume that this bloody apron was really Catherine's, which people do speculate it probably was, it was because the coroner actually matched it with apron remnants found on her body. But it doesn't necessarily mean the person that dropped it there also wrote the graffiti. That could be a coincidence, but he might've, you know? He might've. And so if Jack really did write some of the letters to the police and the media, it, it was kind of clear with this graffiti that he really liked messing with people through writing. And we have to look back to that dear boss letter. This letter hadn't been made public yet when Catherine died, because the recipients still thought it was a hoax.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  But the letter did say they were going to cut off a piece of the next victim's ear and mail it to the police or the recipient or whoever. And then three days later, Catherine is killed and a big piece of her ear was cut off. But it was left behind at the scene. Maybe that was because they ran out of time and

• 1:04:04Kaelyn Moore?

  Interrupted, yeah.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  Ripper the ear lobe. But it's clear that, you know, there's some correlation, especially with it being unpublished. And ears hadn't been involved until now. So if the graffiti was Jack's handiwork, maybe he left the piece of an apron as some sort of a signature. I mean, we saw this in our Zodiac case with one of the victim's clothing getting cut off and then later mailed to police. You know, kind of proving this is me.

• 1:04:30Kaelyn Moore?

  Right, taking credit.

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:32Kaelyn Moore?

  Liking the credit.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  Here's my trophy, but I'm gonna give it back to you so you know it's me.

• 1:04:36Kaelyn Moore?

  Exactly.

• 1:04:37Speaker 02

  So a lot of people do think this apron scrap did come from Jack the Ripper. Some people speculate he was wiping his hands clean and then discarded it. But there is an interesting hole in the timeline. Because there's a witness who didn't see either the graffiti or apron on Gulston Street at 2:20 a.m., which is 35 minutes before the graffiti was found. If the witness is accurate, Jack probably didn't take an hour to walk three streets over and wipe his hands. So what was he doing from 1:45 to 2:55? There's a ripperologist named John Smith that thinks this kind of points to Jack living near Mitre Square and that he could have used this apron to actually carry Catherine's stolen organs back to his home

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  before going out again to leave the Clufer Police. And if that's true, it would narrow down the suspect pool a lot. But again, there's no way to prove it. But that brings us to clue number six, which is another letter. This time the addressee is George Lusk, who headed an anti-crime group called the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. Again, everyone was terrified at this time. Papers are blowing this up. And they're starting to establish little neighborhood watch, essentially. It's not just a letter that gets mailed to George Lusk, though. It's a small cardboard box, and in it contains a note and half a human kidney.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  Which seemed to have been soaked in wine to preserve it. Again, no DNA, no blood typing, so we can't say for sure if it was Catherine's stolen kidney. But a medical examination found it to be a similar stage of Bright's disease. Which, I mean, for ancient Victorian times, it's not that long ago, but like, for those times to be able to match the kidney based on the disease progression.

• 1:06:28Kaelyn Moore?

  That they looked into it and they were like, this is our best guess, but it is based on a little bit of science, yeah.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  Little bit of a vintage Sherlock moment.

• 1:06:35Kaelyn Moore?

  A little bit.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  Little bit.

• 1:06:37Kaelyn Moore?

  I'll add a little Sherlock box.

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  There's our Sherlock box down there. And while it's possible that one of the hoaxers pretending to be Jack was a medical student with access to human kidneys. And maybe they decided to sacrifice one of his practice organs for a prank. But let me read this note for you guys, just so you know what this other note said. And it will say the handwriting and spelling are both way sloppier than the Dear Boss letter. Which also could suggest this came from a different author. I mean hoaxers were running rampant at this time. But it says, quote, "From hell, Mr. Lusk, SOR." SOR. It's supposed to be SOR.

• 1:07:18Kaelyn Moore?

  A lot of stuff is spelled wrong in this letter, unlike the first one.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  I know. "I send you half the kidney I took from one woman and preserved it for you. Tother piece I fried and ate. It was very nice. I may send you the bloody knife that took it out if you only wait a will longer. Signed, Catch Me When You Can, Mr. Lusk." End quote. I tried to read it for you guys with the bad spelling.

• 1:07:44Kaelyn Moore?

  No, you did a great job with all the bad spelling.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  I hope you enjoyed it.

• 1:07:47Kaelyn Moore?

  That's exactly what it sounded like in my brain when I read it.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  Mr. Lusk.

• 1:07:50Kaelyn Moore?

  Mr.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  It doesn't look like the same handwriting as the Dear Boss letter at all. And a lot, a lot of people have gone over this. A lot of people have used these two to like, say this was definitely a hoaxer and Dear Boss is real.

• 1:08:04Kaelyn Moore?

  But there's still a hoaxer out there that has a human kidney. Like, let's, let's be real for a sec. Like, we have to figure out who this person is too.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, people are losing it right now. But there's also some people that's It could have actually been the same person and is kind of pulling a little bit of a BTK on us and intentionally writing sloppy, intentionally misspelling words to kind of detract from their education level, which hey, maybe if this, you know, was a doctor and Jack was super highly educated and people are getting a little closer to finding out who he is, I better write a little sloppier. I better get them off my trail a bit.

• 1:08:41Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:41Speaker 02

  It's plausible. Another theory is that maybe Jack was sober when he wrote the first letter and drunk for the second one, or maybe wrote one with his right hand and the other with his left. And then, of course, we have to consider the possibility, maybe this letter or both letters wasn't sent by Jack at all.

• 1:08:59Kaelyn Moore?

  What does your gut say?

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  I feel like the first Dear Boss one was probably plausible, especially given the detail about the ear. This one and who it got sent to feels a little more hoaxster to me. But the kidney, the kidney in the box really throws me off.

• 1:09:20Kaelyn Moore?

  That's scary that someone, even someone else had a kidney.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:09:24Kaelyn Moore?

  I agree.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  Especially considering the times with poverty and organs were in high demand. I mean, people are robbing graves for them, so it doesn't seem like a medical student would just give up a valuable specimen.

• 1:09:37Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I don't know.

• 1:09:40Kaelyn Moore?

  Well, that kind of brings us to our last victim, at least amongst the canonical five. Although, like I mentioned earlier, there's a few other killings that some experts think may be the work of Jack the Ripper, but they're all unconfirmed for the most part. But this fifth woman, Mary Kelly, is very likely one of Jack's victims. But she is a departure from his usual pattern of picking victims in a lot of ways. In November of 1888, she's only 25 years old. She's 20 years younger than the other women that have been found. She was born in Ireland and had lived in Wales before moving to England, so documents related to her birth seem to have been lost in the shuffle. Pretty much everything we know about her is from her boyfriend or people who really

• 1:10:24Kaelyn Moore?

  only knew her briefly. She apparently had very little or no contact with her family. Everyone describes her as being beautiful. She's taller than most men at 5'7". She's got blonde hair, blue eyes. She has a very charming personality, except she does have this tendency to drink until she becomes very rude and loud. That is according to people who knew her briefly. She married pretty young. She was just 16. That was during her time in Wales, but tragically, she lost her husband in an explosion just a few years later. And like most of the other victims, in order to survive without any male provider, she supported herself through sex work. But her younger age and

• 1:11:07Kaelyn Moore?

  striking appearance really gave her access to, let's say, a different class of clientele. At least at first, that's what it seems like. She arrives in London in 1884, and she's able to work in pretty high-end brothels. She may also have worked for a time with a French madam who procured sex workers for wealthy Frenchmen. Again, this is just what she told her boyfriend, so, you know, it could have been a little bit embellished versus her real-life story. But if she was living the high-class escort life, either she didn't like it, or she was eventually dismissed, maybe potentially because she

• 1:11:47Kaelyn Moore?

  had what some people described as bad manners. But in 1887, she's fairly poor, and she's living at a Doss house in the East End. And that's where she meets her boyfriend, and he's the source of most of what we know about her. It's this man named Joe Barnett, and he's a day laborer and porter working around the docks. And according to him, it was love at first sight. They moved in together just a few days after their first date. It's not totally clear why they never got married, but maybe Mary was a traditional Irish Catholic and didn't believe in remarriage, even though her spouse had died. But they both together, at least according to him, spent way too much money on liquor.

• 1:12:30Kaelyn Moore?

  And after they moved several times, they managed to scrape together enough coins to rent a single room together in a house off Dorset Street in the Spitalfields slum. They were basically living in cheap lodging that was like one step up from a Dawes house, but it means that they didn't have to share rooms with strangers, which was nice for them at the time. Then in August or September of 1888, Joe loses his job and that's when things really go downhill for them. Mary has to return to sex work to support them, but she can't exactly move into a brothel while she also lives with her boyfriend. So she takes to walking the streets at night, looking for clientele that way. And while she's there, she actually makes a lot of friends.

• 1:13:14Kaelyn Moore?

  There's actually a lot of women her age working on the streets and many of them are in a far worse spot than she is. And Mary has this really big heart. She is meeting all these women. She basically doesn't want them to sleep on the street if she can help it. She's also, mind you, like everyone else in London, heard all these stories of Jack the Ripper. So she knows it's not safe out there for women to be living on the streets. So she actually goes to her boyfriend and is like, can all the women stay here? And he kind of like hesitantly agrees, but he finds himself living in a single room on Dorset Street with a rotating cast of sex workers that he barely knows, but they all have nowhere to go. She turns her home into this big like sleepover, basically.

• 1:13:57Kaelyn Moore?

  On October 30th, 1888, it seems like Joe has enough of this situation, however, and he decides to move out of their room and into a boarding house. The couple doesn't break up though, and Joe continues to visit her every day, leading up until the night of Thursday, November 8th. Joe stops by that evening as usual, but Mary is hanging out with her neighbor who lives at a different lodging house on the same cul-de-sac, basically. So Joe stays for a few minutes. He ends up leaving around 8:00 PM when she's not there. And sometime between eight o'clock at night and 11 o'clock at night, Mary goes out because at 11:00 PM, witnesses see her. She looks like she's drunk.

• 1:14:42Kaelyn Moore?

  She's at a Spitalfields pub. But she's with a man who is not Joe. This man has a mustache. At 11:45 PM, a neighbor and fellow sex worker sees Mary heading for her room on Dorset Street in the company of a man. Again, he's described as having a mustache and whiskers. He's described as being about five foot five. He's wearing a threadbare overcoat and a hat. And the other woman follows the two home mostly because she's going the same way. And when Mary and this man arrive at her room, it seems like Mary begins drunkenly singing very loud, which she continues to do until at least one in the morning.

• 1:15:26Kaelyn Moore?

  There's multiple reports of this detail, including from a neighbor who was annoyed enough that they considered going over and banging on the door because it was late and Mary was being so loud. But then, before they're able to go over and knock on the door, it seems like Mary goes out again sometime between one o'clock in the morning and two o'clock in the morning. And we know this because there's this local laborer named George Hutchinson who sees her at 2 AM with what seems to be a different man. And he gets a very good description of this guy. George says that Mary's companion is about in his mid 30s, somewhere between five foot six and five foot seven. So he's an inch or two taller than like the first guy.

• 1:16:11Kaelyn Moore?

  He has pale complexion, a slight mustache and dark hair with bushy eyebrows. He's dressed like he's rich also. He has this expensive overcoat on. He has a felt hat. He has a gold chain attached to his waistcoat. He also is carrying a small package, like you mentioned earlier.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  Another package.

• 1:16:35Kaelyn Moore?

  George is curious enough about this scene to follow Mary and her companion as they stroll back towards Mary's room. And just outside of the cul-de-sac where Mary's address is, he hears her say, quote, "All right, my dear, come along, you will be comfortable." The two kiss and they go into the cul-de-sac where Mary's building is, at which point George leaves. And the next morning, around 10:45 in the morning, Mary's landlord sends his employee, Thomas Bauer, to remind Mary that her rent is now overdue. Thomas bangs on the door, but there's no answer. Now, he figures she's probably just ignoring him because he's there to collect rent. He notices her door is locked, though, and he makes a note of it.

• 1:17:18Kaelyn Moore?

  So after a few attempts to bang on the door and wake her up, he ends up just peering in through her window, and that's when he sees Mary's very mutilated body on her bed. Now, Thomas runs to fetch the landlord, and they both go together to alert the police, and eventually the landlord just breaks down the door and lets them in. But it seems like the killer had either a key, or he left without using the door because the door was locked from the inside. When the police surgeon arrives, he says that he has never seen anything like this before. Now, like the other victims, the killing wound is the same MO. It's a slash to the throat that goes all the way down to the bone.

• 1:18:01Kaelyn Moore?

  Her nose, her cheeks, her eyebrows, and her ears are partially cut off, but her body is mostly skinned. Flaps of the skin for her stomach and thighs have been removed and actually placed on a nearby table, and her breasts were also cut off, with one placed under her head and the other by her right foot. Her abdomen, like the other victims, was sliced open, and her organs had been removed and staged around her body. Her intestines are on her right side, her spleen was found on her left, and her uterus and kidneys are under her head, next to one dismembered breast. Her chest has also been cut open, and her heart is gone.

• 1:18:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is one image we will not be showing you guys on YouTube. But I did look at this crime scene photo. It was actually, according to one source, like the very first crime scene photo taken in London.

• 1:19:02Kaelyn Moore?

  Wow.

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  So this wasn't really a thing to photograph victims like this until this victim and it's like almost unrecognizable, like it does not even, she does not even look human anymore.

• 1:19:16Kaelyn Moore?

  Right.

• 1:19:16Speaker 02

  I mean, there, it's so hard to even distinguish a face and like, as someone that's taken a couple different human anatomy courses, like, like just hearing how much was mutilated or dismembered, removed, placed around the room, like, it again kind of goes for me back to someone who's very skilled in this and is very familiar with

• 1:19:38Kaelyn Moore?

  Does it make you think that it's a surgeon? Cause I, the, the ability, my first thing hearing that her abdomen's been cut open and all of her organs are out, feels like a C-section in a way. There's like a skill that you need to be able to remove everything and pull them out.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  It is bad and I think it, I don't know if it's a surgeon because I feel like a surgeon would have been more precise than what you see in the image, but

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  maybe this is something you guys chime in on. If you're gonna look at the picture yourself, I'm not encouraging you to. Again, it is very heavy and gory, but it doesn't seem as precise. It's, it does feel very exploratory to me.

• 1:20:18Kaelyn Moore?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:20Speaker 02

  Which, I don't know. Yeah. But everyone do their own investigation if you care to do so.

• 1:20:26Kaelyn Moore?

  Well, he was able to pull out her heart. And that seems to be the only thing that's missing from the scene, which is also interesting. So even though so many people have gone on record that saw the scene and have said that this was emphatically the worst of the Jack the Ripper crimes. It also in a way seems to be the last, according to some sources. I mean, a lot of people believe that this was the last one. There's a couple other suspicious murders of women in Whitechapel during the The rest of 1888 through 1889 and some people believe they could be Jack's work. But most people agree that Mary was the last victim.

• 1:21:08Kaelyn Moore?

  I mean, we might talk about it a little more, but there's like other murders that happened around the world where people think that it was Jack. There's stuff that happens in America where people are like, did he come over here and commit more murders?

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:19Kaelyn Moore?

  Now, if you're listening to this show or you consume true crime in general, you know that a lot of serial killers don't really stop just out of the blue, especially kind of if they're in their prime. Usually they get caught. Sometimes they get too old to physically kill anymore. Sometimes they die. I mean, some people do believe that Jack did die after this. But the FBI profilers who have looked into this case believe that if he did die, it was most likely not suicide because that wouldn't really fit anything else we know about his psychology. In 2005, when they were doing that forensic analysis of his MO, the one that was done by Detective Keppel and his team, they didn't take any position necessarily on why Jack would have stopped killing.

• 1:22:02Kaelyn Moore?

  But they did point out that his murders were taking more and more time and planning to execute. He was only able to mutilate Mary Kelly so extensively because she had a room to herself and she took him back to this room. So when he was in there, he wasn't interrupted for hours. So maybe Mary was the final fulfillment in this kind of like necro sadistic fantasy he had. And, you know, maybe there was a chance that he couldn't figure out how to repeat that experience. Because remember, she had her own room and most of the women he was killing lived in these Doss houses where they shared rooms.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was a very private experience for him.

• 1:22:40Kaelyn Moore?

  Yes.

• 1:22:40Speaker 02

  Uninterrupted. Yeah, I'm going to get into this a bit more when I, when I talk about who.

• 1:22:45Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  The potentials are.

• 1:22:47Kaelyn Moore?

  And maybe because of how gruesome this one was, he wasn't interested in going back to having to quickly kill people on the street and only get to mutilate them a little bit. That, I mean, that's one of the theories.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:58Kaelyn Moore?

  But whatever the reason was, it's believed that he stopped. But the investigation didn't. And everyone in Whitechapel was still terrified, even more so now. And they were demanding answers.

• 1:23:14Kaelyn Moore?

  Now, the police were under very intense pressure to catch Jack the Ripper. So they put thousands of hours into the case. And one thing I will mention at the time, like the concept of a detective had only been around for about 20 years. It was actually invented in London and like the history of why detectives exist is really funny and they just had no training. But basically they had no skills in homicide detection at the time. They had just started the department. So there were, there's just like a lot of botched things that happened throughout the entire investigation. They ended up interviewing over 2,000 people over the course of this investigation. They arrested at least 80 people in this time too, because they wanted to question them further, but none of them get charged with murder.

• 1:23:58Kaelyn Moore?

  Every day that Jack the Ripper was at large, the local papers and the Whitechapel residents got more and more pointed in their criticism of the police force. I mean, in some of these newspapers that you go through, you can see cartoons that were published that depict the local constables wandering around with blindfolds while criminals are getting away with murder. Meanwhile, there's also at the same time, like this rise in photography. Cameras are getting better, more people are owning them. And that kind of combined with the extensive newspaper coverage that was happening and how newspapers would sensationalize crimes, especially on the East End. It really shed a light on just how bad the slums in London were at the time.

• 1:24:39Kaelyn Moore?

  And so the worst slums in London end up all getting torn down and the land was sold off to developers who start building more modern apartment buildings there instead. And a lot of that population just gets displaced. Some of them were assisted in finding new housing, but a lot of them could not pay rent and just had nowhere to live. The workhouse system also eventually gets abolished, which really helped break that vicious cycle of labor that forced a lot of the poorest people in England from getting a leg up. So in a strange kind of indirect way, Jack the Ripper's hatred for London's most vulnerable women might have made the streets a little bit safer for them, but it didn't do anything to point police in the direction of who he was.

• 1:25:23Kaelyn Moore?

  And that's why even to this day, people are still trying to figure out who Jack the Ripper really was.

• 1:25:29Speaker 02

  So who do we think he is? We've got a lot of theories on who could be Jack the Ripper. By one count, over 500 suspects have been proposed by modern researchers, and it's possible that none of them are Jack the Ripper. He could have been some butcher who died and was buried in a pauper's grave with no marker. He could have gotten a job as a sailor after the last murder and left Europe forever. And sadly, there's probably some stuff the police knew at the time that we don't even know now, because many of the City of London's police files were lost when London was bombarded during World War II's big blitz. Various other files believed to have existed also went missing over the years, possibly taken home in error or stolen as souvenirs.

• 1:26:14Speaker 02

  But let's talk about a few suspects whose names we do know. I'll start with some that are probably the least supported by evidence, but are still super interesting. Up first, we have James Maybrick. He was a cotton merchant in Whitechapel area who had a violent marriage and died, likely poisoned by his abused wife, actually. And it was just a few months after Mary Kelly's murder that he died. Now, he was mostly associated with this case because of a diary that surfaced in the 1990s, which was allegedly his handwritten accounts of the murders. And in this diary, he confesses to all of it. However, we have found out now that this was a probable forgery by a scrap metal dealer named Michael Barrett.

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  Michael confessed to faking the diary, then later recanted his confession. But because of technology, we were able to determine that the ink used to pen the diary was found to contain a preservative not yet available in Victorian times. So for us, he's kind of out. I mean, there's fringe theories on Reddit pointing to Gandhi. I don't think that one's-

• 1:27:18Kaelyn Moore?

  You hate that theory.

• 1:27:19Speaker 02

  I hate that theory. I mean, there's even theories that the author, Lewis Carroll, author of Alice in Wonderland, could have been Jack the Ripper. I mean, there's a lot of people pulling at strings. But one of my favorite of the bad theories is the Degas theory.

• 1:27:37Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, this one is the one you- You always bring up to me.

• 1:27:39Speaker 02

  This one blows my mind. Okay, so for my friends that are maybe on TikTok, you might have come across a video from Skrr Genius. Uh, her name is actually Kiki Skrrr, S C H I R R. And Kiki has sixty-eight videos breaking down potential theories, potential evidence on how Degas, the famous artist, the painter of ballerinas, could have actually been Jack the Ripper. And this one really fits for me. So Kiki basically proposes this theory and gives all these reasons. Degas had a really problematic relationship with women,

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  often thought of them as animals. He was extremely misogynistic. And around his early fifties, he became a really awful misanthrope, and people just like did not want to be around him. And something about Degas's work, he painted ballerinas, he painted wash women. These were oftentimes women who also doubled as sex workers because those careers didn't pay. Like ballerinas were like more higher up sex workers. Same with opera singers. I mean, you kind of see that in Bridgerton a little bit with the opera singer. But like that was common for a lot of these careers. And that is who Degas painted. A lot of people also point to his art being the reason.

• 1:29:10Speaker 02

  He doesn't really paint their faces. He paints them in these awkward poses. I'm gonna show you one painting from Degas that almost reminds me how some of the victims were posed. Not showing a face, crouched over, legs pulled up. It's a ballerina bending down to tie her slipper, but A lot of these paintings are also super dark. Another thing that you often see in Degas' painting is a dark ribbon around the women's throats. A lot of interesting ties.

• 1:29:44Kaelyn Moore?

  I'm not convinced, Morgan. If I'm being honest, a painter that didn't like women and painted ballerinas.

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  Common.

• 1:29:50Kaelyn Moore?

  I don't know what the, the bigger connection is.

• 1:29:55Speaker 02

  So Degas also had this disease called Stargardt's disease. It's a disease where the area behind the eyes can go black, like the gray matter activity in that region stops. And people with this disease do lose their vision over time. But a loss of activity in the gray matter is also associated with a lot of serial killers. Like if you do brain scans on serial killers, the same area of the brains like don't light up. So there's that.

• 1:30:20Kaelyn Moore?

  But wasn't he, because of that, he was nearly blind in 1888 when these were?

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  He definitely had poorer vision. He was still making art. In 1890, he really transitioned to do sculpture instead of painting.

• 1:30:32Kaelyn Moore?

  Because it was easier for his vision.

• 1:30:34Speaker 02

  Because it was easier. But again, look at how these cases progressed. The last victim he had ample time with in a room, could have been lit in any way he wanted. Also was a lot sloppier and more gory. I've got other people. I've got other theories. I'm like, if you're not buying this one.

• 1:30:52Kaelyn Moore?

  I don't think I buy, but I appreciate how much of a rabbit hole you have gone down with this.

• 1:30:56Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, I have.

• 1:30:57Kaelyn Moore?

  I can appreciate a good rabbit hole.

• 1:30:58Speaker 02

  I have. I mean, there's so much and like people are like, Degas lived in France. Well, okay, he could have gone over there. Degas also like did not really like people. He would never send letters to his friends. And during all the times of the murders, his friends would get way more letters than usual. Almost like he was setting up an alibi for himself. Degas also was like very classically trained. So he likely attended dissections at medical schools to learn about human anatomy. But again, you are absolutely right. A lot of people who debunk this theory do point to Degas losing, you know, his eyesight and being very visually impaired potentially. But my girl on TikTok, Kiki, she has even.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  Gone deeper into murders in Paris. And so a lot of her newer content is breaking down murders in Paris because people are like, Degas wouldn't start killing people in his 50s around this time. How did he just start as Jack the Ripper in London?

• 1:31:53Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, I mean, Jack was also described as being around 30, right? And he was in his 50s.

• 1:31:57Speaker 02

  But 5'5", 5'5 tall, and guess how tall Degas was?

• 1:32:02Speaker 02

  5'5".

• 1:32:02Kaelyn Moore?

  5'5".

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  5'5".

• 1:32:03Kaelyn Moore?

  The average height of a man at the time.

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  Hey!

• 1:32:06Kaelyn Moore?

  I don't know, Morgan.

• 1:32:07Speaker 02

  So counts. But, uh...

• 1:32:09Kaelyn Moore?

  What was his mustache like?

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  Terrible. Terrible mustache.

• 1:32:13Kaelyn Moore?

  Okay, but he did have a mustache.

• 1:32:14Speaker 02

  Did fit.

• 1:32:14Kaelyn Moore?

  Okay.

• 1:32:15Speaker 02

  Did fit. Kiki is now going in a new evidence that like breaks down other crimes in Paris. And this is really interesting because Paris Crimes was kind of controlled by the Crown and then it shifted. And so she's like going through clippings. Kiki will be linked, really interesting playlist to just watch through. Again, there's 68 posts. Another suspect that is often talked about is Walter Sickert. And Walter is another artist. Actually did work with Degas, was in London around the same time. And Walter has a really interesting set of paintings that have now been dubbed the Camden Town Murder. And this is given to a group of four paintings.

• 1:32:58Speaker 02

  And the original title is What Shall We Do For Rent? And he had an interesting style, but this painting, the one that's kind of synonymous with the Camden Town Murder, is of a woman lying in bed, a man, almost like with something in his hands or an apron, a leather apron on, sitting at the edge of the bed. Like, it almost looks like what it would look like if he was painting Jack the Ripper with his last victim, like sitting at the edge of the bed. It's interesting.

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  Walter Sickert also had an insane fascination with Jack the Ripper. Is quoted to have, "I stayed in Jack's hotel." Like, he was very, very fascinated by Jack the Ripper, so a lot of people kind of throw him in. And he worked with Degas, so it's just like this weird connection.

• 1:33:45Kaelyn Moore?

  The connection.

• 1:33:46Speaker 02

  A lot of people speculating that Jack the Ripper did not work alone. Maybe they worked together then?

• 1:33:52Speaker 02

  Oh, I know you're not, you're not convinced.

• 1:33:54Kaelyn Moore?

  Can I throw my two bad theories into the ring?

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 1:33:57Kaelyn Moore?

  Okay, so my two bad theories that I'm gonna nominate for Jack the Ripper that I know there's not a lot of evidence, but a lot of people do point to these people. H.H. Holmes.

• 1:34:06Speaker 02

  Oh, that comes up a lot.

• 1:34:08Kaelyn Moore?

  So we're doing an episode on H.H. Holmes for our monster series on Heartland.

• 1:34:12Speaker 02

  That is a doozy.

• 1:34:13Kaelyn Moore?

  And, I mean, you want to talk about someone who was selling people, killing people to sell them to medical institutions, like specifically someone who was killing women to strip them down to the skeleton and sell those to the local medical colleges. If that's what Jack was doing, that MO fits. So I lived in Austin last year and I got so deep into the lore of the servant girl killer, who was a few years before Jack the Ripper. But basically, in Austin at the time, similar thing, there weren't any lights, there were no electric lights in the area, so it was like very dark in Austin at the time. And what was happening was there was this person that they never caught, who was pulling

• 1:34:54Kaelyn Moore?

  servant girls out of their servant quarters in the back of houses and hatcheting them with a big axe.

• 1:35:01Speaker 02

  This is the axe one.

• 1:35:02Kaelyn Moore?

  This is the axe one, and he would pull these girls out when their husbands were in the room with them, when their children were in the room with them. But he had the same MO every single time, pull them out into the backyard, it was mostly black servant girls, there were a few white victims. But, yeah, pull them out and would ax them, and then would escape. He was never caught, I mean, obviously, it's a very, very different MO from Jack the Ripper, but the author, Skip Hollinsworth of The Midnight Assassin, which is like a great book on the, the subject if you're interested, does say that, you know, some people think that he left, he left Austin, got on a boat in the Gulf, and went all the way up to London, and that's where he became Jack the Ripper.

• 1:35:46Kaelyn Moore?

  So, those are my two that I'm throwing in the ring for bad suspects.

• 1:35:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:35:50Kaelyn Moore?

  I'm curious what people think, if anyone out there

• 1:35:52Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:35:52Kaelyn Moore?

  has heard those.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  Curious about your thoughts on these ones, especially dig off for myself selfishly.

• 1:35:58Kaelyn Moore?

  I know. But Morgan up in the comments, because I know I'm not doing a good job of it right now.

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  I'm not selling you guys. But let's get into some of the more plausible theories, because we've got some of those too. So, there's been an interesting revelation with DNA evidence. In 2007, a Jack the Ripper tour guide and amateur ripperologist named Russell Edwards won an auction for a bloody silk shawl, and this was said to be taken from the body of Catherine Eddowes at the time of her murder. But there wasn't just blood on it, there was supposedly semen too, thought to be left by Jack himself. According to a family legend, Sergeant Amos Simpson took the shawl as a morbid gift for his wife, and it had never been washed since.

• 1:36:45Speaker 02

  One of Simpson's descendants put it up for sale, and Edwards purchased it. Edwards then published a book in 2014, claiming that he had the shawl tested for DNA, and it identified the Ripper. His name was supposedly Aaron Kozminski. He was a barber with a history of serial mental health issues, and was a suspect at the time of the murders. The police who interrogated him described him as, quote, "hating women," and, quote, "having strong homicidal tendencies." In childhood, he had reportedly attacked his sister with a knife. He was also eventually confined to an institution with what we might diagnose today as schizophrenia or paranoid psychosis.

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  We don't know much about Aaron's appearance, though. There's no known images of him. But we do have a picture of a brother who does have a similar appearance to a lot of the witnesses' descriptions, but, again, those descriptions, we're not even certain that that was Jack the Ripper either. And there's also some big problems with this whole DNA analysis. It used mitochondrial DNA, not nuclear DNA, and as we've talked about in past episodes, mitochondrial DNA is more likely to be extracted from very old evidence.

• 1:38:01Speaker 02

  But it's not very specific, like nuclear DNA. So it can't pinpoint an individual. It can only pinpoint a family tree from the female line, the mitochondrial.

• 1:38:12Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, it says, it can say like, you are related to in some way.

• 1:38:16Speaker 02

  Exactly, but not specific. So all this could really prove was that whoever bled on the shawl shared a female ancestor with Catherine's known descendants. And whoever ejaculated on the shawl shared a female ancestor with Aaron's known relatives, but maybe not specifically him. And there's also problems with whipperologist Russell Edwards, who was pushing this whole theory after buying the shawl to sell their book.

• 1:38:41Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, I know this comes up in the headlines like every five years.

• 1:38:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:44Kaelyn Moore?

  Last summer, people were talking about this too.

• 1:38:46Speaker 02

  I remember like we were kind of gearing up for the show and we were like, the shawl.

• 1:38:50Kaelyn Moore?

  The shawl, I want to know more about the shawl again.

• 1:38:53Speaker 02

  So it is interesting. There's also been some other problematic issues with Russell and saying he found missing people and announced it before their family knew. And then when they brought detectives there, there was no body, so.

• 1:39:07Kaelyn Moore?

  And he's a tour guide?

• 1:39:08Speaker 02

  Was a tour guide.

• 1:39:10Kaelyn Moore?

  And is announcing that he's found missing people, yeah, that's a little sus.

• 1:39:13Speaker 02

  It's giving problematic. But one of the more interesting theories that I actually, I do think he kind of fits as well. I'm like, I'm like a little, I'm like maybe 30% DeGaw, 70% this guy. Who is Francis Tumblety. He was a self-styled doctor with a history of living under false names. Again, had a ridiculous handlebar mustache. A lot of sources actually describe him as a bit of a quack. A snake oil salesman, selling a lot of odd herbal remedies to heal people.

• 1:39:46Kaelyn Moore?

  Very common in Victorian times.

• 1:39:48Speaker 02

  It sure was. He was also believed to have been gay, so might not have been very sexually motivated, but still the pickarism was a thing for him. A lot of his acquaintances say he hated women, had violent explosive rage. And he also had a collection of preserved organs. He had uteruses in glass jars, would often pass them around at dinner parties for people to look at.

• 1:40:18Kaelyn Moore?

  Interesting. I don't think I could eat dinner after seeing all of that, but.

• 1:40:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:40:22Kaelyn Moore?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:22Speaker 02

  No. The timeline for him matches up really, really well. He traveled to Liverpool in June of 1888 and was in London during the murders. He actually did become a top suspect at the time and was arrested on November 7th, 1888, for charges that were actually associated with homosexuality, which was probably investigators using kind of as a ploy to investigate him further for the Jack the Ripper killings. He did get out in time to have killed Mary Kelly on November 9th. Then was arrested again on November 12th on the suspicion of committing the Whitechapel murders. Got out on bail on the 16th and by the 24th had fled to France, then later back to the United States.

• 1:41:06Kaelyn Moore?

  Where he became H.H. Holmes, maybe?

• 1:41:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:41:10Kaelyn Moore?

  No.

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  But there is something really, really interesting where the American papers, like when he got back, did confront him. And he didn't really say anything great. He was like, well, I wear coats and I wear hats.

• 1:41:24Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh.

• 1:41:25Speaker 02

  So you do the math. Like, he was very weird in all of his explanations to the press. And a lot of people said he was very, like, the most likely suspect. There is one source I found that upon his death, they found a brass ring in his pocket. And now organs were taken from a lot of the victims, but like no other personal items were taken except for our second victim, which is Annie Chapman. Annie Chapman was known to have a brass ring. And that was missing after she was killed. So then we have our guy here found with a brass ring in his pocket upon his death. So there's that.

• 1:42:10Kaelyn Moore?

  Always carried one of the trophies with him.

• 1:42:12Speaker 02

  Always carried one of the trophies. Again, the organs, the uterus is in the jars.

• 1:42:16Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:16Speaker 02

  There's a lot of speculation that he did provide abortions and had one go very, very wrong. And it is interesting that you mentioned with our last victim, Mary Kelly, that it almost looked like an abortion, like pulling out or like a C-section.

• 1:42:35Kaelyn Moore?

  Like a C-section, yeah. Like you, you understood the anatomy of a woman.

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  So that is an interesting kind of correlation, but yeah, that's, that's the last one I got. That's the one I think I kind of think fits the most that we know about.

• 1:42:49Kaelyn Moore?

  Interesting. There's a lot of evidence that H.H. Holmes was also providing abortions. And that was maybe, uh, that he was killing some of the women because he would chloroform them too hard accidentally. Because that's what you would do to kind of knock someone out if you're going to perform surgery. They would die and he'd be like, whoops. And he would just take the skeleton and sell it. So, I mean, interesting.

• 1:43:10Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 1:43:11Kaelyn Moore?

  Yeah, it was totally different time. Very, very spooky. I will say, if you have another suspect in mind, feel free to write it in the comments. I mean, there's hundreds we could have gone through. And we just simply don't have time this episode to go through everyone. Please let us know. I'm so curious what everyone thinks.

• 1:43:27Speaker 02

  I know. And let me know what you think of the ones we do have. I mean, I'm down to go down more rabbit holes and investigate other suspects.

• 1:43:34Kaelyn Moore?

  I definitely.

• 1:43:35Speaker 02

  I just think this is, it's crazy what really stemmed from Jack the Ripper in terms of how we look at true crime and how the papers treated true crime and killings up until kind of recently. Other copycats that copied similar methods.

• 1:43:52Kaelyn Moore?

  Oh, yeah. We were even just talking about how the Black Dahlia feels like that was maybe inspired a little bit by Jack the Ripper, just the way she was posed and the way that she was dismembered. You definitely have, maybe you can't call them copycat killers, but you have people being inspired by these murders and the sensationalism of it.

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:13Kaelyn Moore?

  Really crazy, but there is part of me that thinks that this will never be solved.

• 1:44:16Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:44:17Kaelyn Moore?

  Just because we don't have the DNA evidence.

• 1:44:20Speaker 02

  We're too far past.

• 1:44:21Kaelyn Moore?

  We're too far, exactly. We're too far away from it to ever truly solve it. Even with the advancing technology that we have, like DNA, all of the DNA evidence that's untested could technically be tested again, but it's not really gonna tell us anything conclusive.

• 1:44:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, and after so many years, I mean, who knows if the semen wasn't from that constable that

• 1:44:42Kaelyn Moore?

  I know.

• 1:44:43Speaker 02

  stole it for his wife.

• 1:44:44Kaelyn Moore?

  And even the story of the scarf and how it became in his possession is kind of lore. Like, the lore of the story is that the constable stole it and gave it to his wife. We don't know that for certain.

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  No, maybe this is truly one of the unsolvable cases. It will never be solved.

• 1:45:00Kaelyn Moore?

  Right.

• 1:45:01Speaker 02

  But I do wanna know, Black Dahlia has come up a lot in the comments, and I know it is a more covered case, but if you guys do want us to get into it, please let us know in the comments. I know there's a lot that has come out recently with one of the sons of maybe the killer that has come forward and been like, yeah, my dad's the killer. So there's some newer stuff on the case, and so if you guys wanna see it from us, let us know in the comments.

• 1:45:26Kaelyn Moore?

  Definitely let us know. That one always gets me. Maybe because it's so close to home, because we're in LA, but

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  It's right here.

• 1:45:31Kaelyn Moore?

  Really spooky. I mean, what we do know about this case is that Jack the Ripper was successful at killing at least five women and mutilating their bodies very badly because he was operating at a place and time where women's lives were definitely not valued. Not poor women, and especially not women with substance abuse disorders or history of sex work. And remember the constable who let Catherine out of the drunk tank? When she said that she got a beating for coming home late at night, the police officer's response was that she would have deserved it because she had no right getting drunk. And what about Polly? She was sent to a workhouse to do forced labor for the crime of being poor. The authorities clearly thought that she had no right to decide what to do with her own life either.

• 1:46:13Kaelyn Moore?

  Or what about the witness who admitted he saw a man knock Elizabeth Stride to the ground? And instead of intervening or fetching the police, he just walked away. He decided it was none of his business. I mean, obviously, these women deserved better. And unfortunately, it just looks like we'll never figure out who actually committed these crimes. So justice on this one feels like it'll never be served. But I am curious, for everyone listening, what they think?

• 1:46:38Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:46:39Kaelyn Moore?

  How we solved it? Are one of these suspects the one that did this? Or, I mean, as we kind of mentioned in this episode, this is something that I talked to the researcher of this episode about. Like, was it just a pig butcher who's buried in a pauper's grave? And we'll never know. I mean, that's a possibility, too. It just...

• 1:46:56Speaker 02

  It's unsolvable.

• 1:46:57Kaelyn Moore?

  It's unsolvable. It's one I think about often, though.

• 1:46:59Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Again, let us know your thoughts, but we are moving on to our missing person of the week.

• 1:47:05Kaelyn Moore?

  So first, before we dive into the missing person of the week, we actually have an update on one of the cases. This came from a listener who messaged me on Instagram.

• 1:47:15Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:47:16Kaelyn Moore?

  But Nikki Chang, who we talked about in one of our episodes, her husband has been arrested. They have not found Nikki. She has not been located, but authorities have concluded that she is the victim of homicide.

• 1:47:30Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:47:31Kaelyn Moore?

  And the listener that sent this to me did say it was as tragic as it is. It was like something the community has been waiting for, for a long time. And so people, it just feels like a little step towards closure, but wild, which thank you so much to, it was a few people that reached out to kind of give me that update.

• 1:47:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:48Kaelyn Moore?

  So as you're listening, if you hear updates on these cases, definitely let us know, because...

• 1:47:52Speaker 02

  Please do.

• 1:47:53Kaelyn Moore?

  It's really, really important stuff.

• 1:47:55Speaker 02

  I know, that's why we're doing this.

• 1:47:56Kaelyn Moore?

  Yes.

• 1:47:57Speaker 02

  Trying to get the word out.

• 1:47:58Kaelyn Moore?

  But our missing person of the week today is Summer Wells. So she was age five at the time she disappeared. She was reported missing on June 15, 2021, from her home in Rogersville, Hawkins County, Tennessee. Parents say that she was helping her mother and grandmother plant flowers, but then she went inside to play with her toys. And shortly after, her mother says that she could not locate her. The mom said that she called downstairs to Summer, but there was no response, which was unusual. She checked and she saw that her daughter was gone. Now, endangered child alert and then an Amber Alert were both deployed. Extensive searches of the home and surrounding area, including the nearby woods, were looked into. There was also a report of a red or maroon Toyota pickup

• 1:48:42Kaelyn Moore?

  with ladders on the back that was seen in the area around the time, but we don't know if there's any connection. A bit after the disappearance, a neighbor did come forward and say that she and her children heard a scream about an hour before Summer disappeared, but that didn't really lead police to any sort of breakthrough. Her parents, Candace and Dom Wells, believe that there has been an abduction, possibly from or behind the basement, and maybe she was taken down the hill to the vehicle that was seen in the area. But as of today, there's been no arrests. No one has been named a suspect, and parents have passed polygraphs. So the sheriff has said that everyone remains a person of interest in this case and that there's no evidence to determine abduction versus walkaways slash lost.

• 1:49:27Kaelyn Moore?

  The case remains active, and Summer was described at the time of her disappearance as being three feet tall, 40 pounds, blue eyes, blonde hair, and she was last seen in a pink shirt and gray pants. If you have any information, you can call TBI at 1-800-TBI-FIND or 1-800-824-3463. That is all we have for this episode of Clues. I hope you guys enjoyed getting into this one with us.

• 1:49:56Speaker 02

  I hope you hung in there, guys.

• 1:49:57Kaelyn Moore?

  Hope you hung in there.

• 1:49:57Speaker 02

  Because I don't know if I did.

• 1:49:58Kaelyn Moore?

  I know this one's gonna be long. Well, yeah, this is a long one. There's a lot to this one. And if we didn't talk about your favorite Ripper suspect, please get on social media and let us know why you think this person is it. We want to hear from you guys. Your thoughts, your theories, your feedback. All of that is what makes this community so special.

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  At Crime House, we value your support. So again, share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review, and follow Clues to help others discover our show.

• 1:50:23Kaelyn Moore?

  All right, we'll see you next time.

• 1:50:24Speaker 02

  Bye, guys.

• 1:50:29Kaelyn Moore?

  Do you want more Darkly Curious stories in your life? Sign up for our Patreon for free and get access to a rotating shelf of bonus content, our weekly Rogue Detecting Society newsletter, and the HSP Book Club. Paid members also get monthly bonus episodes and archive access, which I think is more than 40 episodes at this point. You also get a cool jinx sticker after your first three months. And you can check it all out with a free seven-day trial. Link in the bio or go to patreon.com/hartstartspounding. Well, whatever you do, stay curious.