Part Two: Dead for 4 Minutes at Six. Dead Again at 39. He Came Back Without His Rage | David A. Williamson

What if dying revealed the truth about who you really are? After suffering a heart attack fueled by years of rage, trauma, and inner conflict, David A. Williamson says he left his body, heard doctors' thoughts as they fought to save his life, traveled through deep space, encountered "the Void," witnessed a mysterious hidden Grid beyond the universe, and received a life-altering message: "You killed yourself with your personality." In this extraordinary Near Death Experience (NDE) episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, David describes hovering above his body in the operating room, watching medical personnel work on him while somehow knowing their private thoughts. He then says he shot through space, encountered what he believes may be connected to black holes, witnessed a star-forming region, transformed into an orb of light, and saw an asteroid that NASA would later confirm actually exists. But that's only the beginning. David shares childhood experiences that he believes prepared him for this encounter with death, including an NDE at age six, powerful intuition, ESP abilities, lucid dreaming, sleep paralysis, and a lifelong sense that reality was far more mysterious than most people realize. He also reveals why he eventually asked God to take his intuitive gifts away. In one of the most unique life reviews we've ever heard, David says he was shown profound truths about identity, race, trauma, love, and the destructive power of unresolved anger. Growing up in a small, impoverished Southern town, witnessing KKK marches as a child, and carrying years of racial pain and resentment would eventually culminate in the heart attack that changed everything. He also discusses startling past-life memories of witnessing the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, his views on reincarnation, Earth School, and why he believes we are already choosing future lifetimes based on the lessons we are learning now. We cover: - His detailed out-of-body experience during cardiac arrest - Receiving the profound realization that he was fundamentally "love and light" - Traveling through space and encountering "the Void" - Witnessing a star-forming region and becoming an orb of light - Mysterious Grid beyond space and what it may mean about reality - Angels and their role in humanity's development - Reincarnation, soul evolution, & Earth School - Why he believes souls cycle through many lives - Emotional and physical challenges of returning to life after death - Why he experienced severe depression after his NDE - How sharing his story 3.5 years later helped rewire his brain and accelerate healing - The dramatic personality transformation that followed his experience - Psychedelics vs. NDEs: key similarities and differences - What religion gets wrong about spirituality - How his NDE changed the way he parents and approaches relationships - Role of imagination, creation, & possibility in human life Whether you're curious about consciousness, life after death, reincarnation, spirituality, psychic phenomena, black holes, or the transformative power of profound human experiences, this conversation challenges conventional assumptions and explores some of the deepest questions we can ask about existence! Please consider donating to David A. Williamson’s GoFundMe if you are able: https://gofund.me/ecdf2577b Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Iyam Bialik.

• 0:06Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:07Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to part two of our conversation with near-death experiencer David A. Williamson. 10 years ago, he had a heart attack and a torn aorta. And what happened to him when he was on the table is indescribable. We talk all about it in episode one. In part two of our conversation with David, he's going to talk about what happened once he woke up from his near-death experience, when he was brought back to life in the cardiac unit. He'll talk about how he started telling his story three and a half years after it happened. What is beyond space and time? What did he experience in the afterlife that has changed the way he views his entire life and our humanity?

• 0:50Mayim Bialik?

  All of that and more is in part two of our conversation with David A. Williamson. Break it down. I want you to take us back to the room where you were being resuscitated, right? Because I want to get to all these points once we, you know, literally put you back in your body. So you have all of these experiences in the void, as you're describing it, which sounds like, yeah, some sort of jumping black holes. Like, it's unbelievable. So at some point, you're watching them try and literally bring your dead body back to life. How many times did they defibrillate you?

• 1:31Jonathan Cohen?

  I saw one time.

• 1:33Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 1:33Jonathan Cohen?

  I saw one time. When I-- and this is what made me say four minutes, is because the protocol for defibrillation is if you don't respond after like a minute and a half, they defibrillate. And then if you don't respond after a certain amount of time while-- after defibrillation, then they do it again. So I opened my eyes, and the guy that was holding the defibrillator pads was leaning in to defibrillate again. So my assumption is that was the second time.

• 1:58Mayim Bialik?

  Great.

• 1:59Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:59Mayim Bialik?

  And what was the first thing you said?

• 2:01Jonathan Cohen?

  It was like, "These assholes woke me up." That was the first thought I had, was "These assholes woke me up." But I looked at the woman in the corner that was holding her face, and I blurted out almost instantly when I opened my eyes, "Are you okay?"

• 2:14Mayim Bialik?

  Well, you finally had a body and a mouth--

• 2:16Jonathan Cohen?

  To be able to talk to her.

• 2:17Mayim Bialik?

  --to say the things that you had been thinking.

• 2:18Jonathan Cohen?

  Exactly. And it just blurted out. And then I looked at the guy with defibrillator pads, and I said, "Are you okay?" You know? And he cut me off, and he said, "No, are you okay?"

• 2:27Mayim Bialik?

  You just died.

• 2:29Jonathan Cohen?

  I didn't even-- the guy to the right said, "You didn't feel that?" And I think he was talking about defibrillation. And I was about to say, "Feel what?" Because I felt nothing. I felt nothing. And I looked down, and I saw this, like a gel pack on my chest that had indention marks that looked the same size as the defibrillator pads in front of me. And I looked, and I said, "You really just died." Like, my mind caught up. My human mind caught up with it. And it was like, "You really did just die." All of those things you saw, you did experience that. And it was amazing, like, to be back in the body.

• 3:06Mayim Bialik?

  So what happens next?

• 3:08Jonathan Cohen?

  Funny, funny, funny part of the story that I just started sharing, because I didn't-- I thought it was-- I don't like to share stuff that's confusing, honestly, because I feel like people who are-- who are supposed to be here to bring clarity often are confusing. You know? I just want to ground a message that makes sense. So even with all the mystical stuff, like, to me, is treat each other better, and this planet will be better. I don't care how mystical you are. We treated each other better, this planet would be better. Okay, but when I came back, and I-- and I-- I was, you know, I said to the lady, "Are you okay?" I spoke to the people, I asked the guy if he was okay. I leaned back, and I was exhausted. And there was a face, like, this guy's face was, like, literally this close to me.

• 3:51Jonathan Cohen?

  And I did like that, like, to kind of look at him. And his eyes got really big. It was a white guy that looked like Shaggy from Scooby Doo. And I don't know if he was a real person or a spirit. I got-- to this day, I don't know. But he looked at me, and his eyes was really big, and he said, "What did you see?" And I looked at him, and I made my eyes big, because I didn't-- I couldn't explain everything. So I made my eyes really big, like he is, and I said, "Blackness." And that was so funny to me. Even after dying, I thought that was so funny. Like, I was like, "I'm already being an asshole again." You know, "I'm back." But that was funny. But I don't know if he was a real person or not. And after that, I kind of, I think I just fell asleep.

• 4:35Jonathan Cohen?

  It was over, and that was the end.

• 4:37Mayim Bialik?

  And then there's some sort of recuperative process by which they have to repair something or, like, make you not dead anymore in terms of, like, was there any procedure they did on your heart at that time?

• 4:50Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, when I came in, they thought it was blockages. So they put stents in two valves. They put two stents in, and they were trying to put a third stent in, but they couldn't because the valve was ripped all to pieces. And so I have two stents, and I think they pulled the third one out. Well, even if they didn't, the surgery replaced the valve with a pig valve.

• 5:11Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah?

• 5:11Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah. The option was a pig valve or a mechanical valve. And with the mechanical valve, you have to take a blood thinner for the rest of your life. I already had a bad experience with a blood thinner. I was taking a blood thinner for hypertension for some reason.

• 5:24Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 5:24Jonathan Cohen?

  And then I poked myself with a glass that broke, and the blood shot to the--

• 5:28Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, my God.

• 5:29Jonathan Cohen?

  --to the ceiling of my house. And I was like, "I'm not taking blood thinners anymore."

• 5:33Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah. So they put a pig valve in--

• 5:36Jonathan Cohen?

  Pig valve.

• 5:37Mayim Bialik?

  --and put your heart back together.

• 5:38Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Mayim Bialik?

  And then what is the process by which you start trying to make sense of what your experience was when you died?

• 5:46Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm never-- I had to go back to work, so I didn't really have time to integrate.

• 5:52Mayim Bialik?

  When did you go back to work after dying?

• 5:54Jonathan Cohen?

  Very-- as soon as I could. I would say a few days after I got home. A week after I got home, I was driving. Everything still hurt. My chest hurt bad. No, I ain't gonna say a week. It took a long time for me to-- but it was very fast that I was-- felt comfortable enough to move. But the pain initially was so extreme, I didn't want to be alive. Like, I was like, "Why did they even save me? Like, why would you save somebody?" And they had just-- you know, the chest cracked open. Like, "What is this? Why would you do this to me?" Like, I wanted to go, because I woke up one morning, and I sneezed, and it literally felt like my whole chest just opened back up. And all I could do was wail.

• 6:37Jonathan Cohen?

  Like, I-- and I-- every time I share this part of the story, I can get emotional, because the wailing sounds like it didn't even come from me. It was like I was hearing it, like, "What is this sound?" And it was the saddest sound ever. Yeah, and it hurt.

• 6:56Mayim Bialik?

  What was it like, you know, you had a son, you know, a little boy? What was that like? And what was your kind of orientation with what you had experienced and what you had to come back to?

• 7:08Jonathan Cohen?

  I didn't think I was going to live after the experience. So I was really, for a long time, my heart wasn't beating right. It felt like I had two hearts. It was-- the beat, the rhythm wasn't-- it just wasn't rhythmming. So I just knew that that wasn't healthy, and I couldn't-- it wasn't gonna-- I wasn't going to live if it stayed that way. And so I didn't expect to live. And so I got a dog. I was sharing this story recently, and it was a pit bull. It got big, and my thought was, "I'm going to die, so maybe I can train this dog to be a protector of my son and his mother." And I was harsh, real harsh with the dog, because I wanted it to be as mean as I was and be a protector. And it's a pit bull. You don't really have to teach a pit bull to protect.

• 7:52Jonathan Cohen?

  And I was going overboard, and I felt horrible. And I was-- I sold the dog, because I realized that it wasn't safe with me. It wasn't healthy for me, because I was-- I thought I was dying, and I wanted it to replace me. And that's not a healthy thing for a dog, you know? So this guy used to come by to cut grass for my neighbors, and he always loved the dog. Like, the dog loved him instantly. And I didn't want to let the dog go, but I felt like it needed to go to that guy, because I was not healthy, mentally, spiritually, in any way. I wasn't healthy.

• 8:24Mayim Bialik?

  Your boy was still young, so how long is it like this before you have some sort of cracking open, where you're able to incorporate what happened when you died?

• 8:34Jonathan Cohen?

  It took me three and a half years to talk about it.

• 8:36Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 8:37Jonathan Cohen?

  And for three and a half years, it was just-- I was probably more depressed. After heart surgery, the depression was so extreme. They told me that I would be depressed after heart surgery, but I had been depressed for 34 years. You know, I had been in an existential crisis for 34 years, since I drowned at age six. I hated this place for 34 years, so there was nothing that he was saying that made me feel like depression was going to matter. But after heart surgery, the depression was so extreme. And it took a long time for me to-- even-- like, even when I was angry, happiness-- I didn't like happy people. I thought happiness was fake, because I'd never really felt happy in a way, any extended period of time.

• 9:19Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, the town I'm from, Yanceville, Caswell County, was the poorest county, so I was like, I had never been happy. But what I did feel was my mom's love was safe. She loved me. And so happiness, I stopped even caring about it, but I understood what love was, and I felt safe with love. And-- but I don't know. It's just--

• 9:43Jonathan Cohen?

  Just, just the anger. I don't know, it blinded me. I couldn't see reality for what it was. All I could see was how I judged it, how it made me feel, you know, the, and after I detached from all of that, like, all I see is reality.

• 9:57Mayim Bialik?

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• 10:40Mayim Bialik?

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• 11:05Jonathan Cohen?

  I just shared it. I shared it. It was during COVID. It was 21, 2021, during 2020, 2021. It was during COVID. And the Clubhouse app had come out, or had gotten popular, yeah.

• 11:18Mayim Bialik?

  So you die, you have this experience, you have this surgery, you come back. You're just holding all this in your soul?

• 11:27Jonathan Cohen?

  Trying to go work.

• 11:29Mayim Bialik?

  And what did you think of that experience? You were just like, like, what was the story you told?

• 11:34Jonathan Cohen?

  About it, because I don't want people to think I'm crazy, you know?

• 11:37Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 11:41Jonathan Cohen?

  I don't understand it, so I can't even talk about it in any kind of intelligible way.

• 11:49Jonathan Cohen?

  I didn't know what happened to me, you know? So for the, it took me and my friend Zach a ride. We've been, we've talked, you know, we've, we take breaks, but we've talked almost every day for like three, four, five, four, five years. And that, talking, we talked about everything, ancient Egyptian stuff, ancient Greek stuff.

• 12:09Mayim Bialik?

  Did you meet him during COVID?

• 12:12Jonathan Cohen?

  On the Clubhouse app.

• 12:12Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, wow.

• 12:13Jonathan Cohen?

  We both were sharing that we had these experiences.

• 12:15Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so, okay, so you found this Clubhouse app, which we all kind of laughed about, because we're like, is this gonna be a thing, right? But like, some of us tried it out.

• 12:22Jonathan Cohen?

  I love it. And I don't even use it as much now because the environment, it's changed a lot.

• 12:27Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 12:27Jonathan Cohen?

  But I will always speak highly of Clubhouse.

• 12:30Mayim Bialik?

  So that, so you started, so you started connecting, and that's the place you started sharing?

• 12:36Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, yeah, and people poured into me from all over the world. Shamans, Indian, like mystics, like, these people were like gurus who knew these ancient texts inside out. So when I said stuff, they would be like, oh, this is that, oh, this is that. Oh, and I'm like, they're blowing my mind, like, because everything that I was saying, they were able to explain it through the text that they knew. And so I started reading more Vedic texts and more Hindu texts and ancient Greek stuff, ancient Egyptian stuff, and everything that happened to me is there. Like, everything, even Terrence Howard started talking about Walter Russell. Walter Russell stuff, I had Walter Russell's book in college and didn't read it because it was too dense.

• 13:21Jonathan Cohen?

  After my NDE, I looked at Secrets of Light. It's describing how I, the void.

• 13:27Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, my god.

• 13:27Jonathan Cohen?

  How I came, it's describing it, and it's weird to me now, you know, all of it. Because there's so much that I had in my possession before I had the NDE that now I know why I had, I had that book, because I had to have that book to help me understand what happened to me after I died. But I got it. I was 18, 19 years old and didn't understand it.

• 13:46Mayim Bialik?

  Well, you had also had all these experiences that your soul had been racking up in this, right? In this incarnation of almost dying, of having all these mystical experiences, of relying on your mother's love to, to like, get you through.

• 14:02Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, it's, yeah, it seems as though, because my, like, I have now probably close to 5,000 or more books, and most of them are about spirituality, quantum physics, psychology, neuroscience. And that's the, and I had these books before I had this experience. So when I had the experience, now I have a whole library, you know, to go dig through to help me explain what happened to me.

• 14:27Mayim Bialik?

  So this is pretty recent that you're talking about it?

• 14:30Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, it happened in 2017.

• 14:33Mayim Bialik?

  But you, but it was during COVID that you started?

• 14:35Jonathan Cohen?

  It started about 2021 is when I first shared it.

• 14:38Jonathan Cohen?

  What was that first experience of sharing like? Did you have that whole story formed? Because you had been suppressing it for all these years.

• 14:46Jonathan Cohen?

  It poured out the same way it pours out now, except I have more details now because sometimes I remember more, you know? But it's been, people who've heard me share it the first time, they say you say it the same way every time, because I remember it that way. And I'm not trying to embellish. I only share what I saw. I don't share what I believe about what I saw.

• 15:07Mayim Bialik?

  They're different things.

• 15:08Jonathan Cohen?

  They're different things, yeah. And I don't really have belief anymore. Either I understand it or I don't, you know? And if I don't understand it, I can try to understand it. If it's still too difficult for me to understand, I can move my attention somewhere else. Like, I don't have to fixate on any idea on this planet anymore, right? Because there's an infinite number of ideas here, and I don't have to understand them all. So I don't fixate on anything here. If I understand it, I can understand it. If I don't, I don't. I don't have to believe. I don't have to force an idea from a misunderstanding.

• 15:37Mayim Bialik?

  I love this notion, and it's something we've talked about with a lot of the materialists that we speak to. Oh, what do you believe, what do you? And I think that's such, that's so beautifully said. It's not about belief at a certain point. It's either like a yes or a no.

• 15:49Jonathan Cohen?

  That's it. Belief is the lowest form of knowing. You know, you, I believe this. But you could go find out whether or not that belief is close to accurate or far from accurate if you had the, you know, the energy or the wherewithal to just go do it. But I don't have to believe anything, and I don't have to question anybody else's beliefs either. You know, I don't, because we all are in delusion. I mean, our perception is imperfect. It's processed here, not, you know? And if we are traumatized and influenced by culture, our perception is being influenced by that. So we're not seeing reality, ever. We're, we're living in a personal delusion, and our delusions should serve us. And so many of our delusions don't serve us, you know? And I think that we should consider that.

• 16:31Jonathan Cohen?

  Some of the ideas that we entertain, they're anti-life, they're, they're hopeless. And we don't have to entertain these ideas. Our ideas should serve us, that we entertain. The delusions that we accept about this place should serve us.

• 16:44Mayim Bialik?

  I know it's such a simple question that has such a complicated answer. How did you change after, you know, after this experience?

• 16:53Jonathan Cohen?

  I think I wouldn't have changed were it, were it not for the experience. So I don't take any kind of credit for it. It is graceless. I, I, I died, and when I came back, I didn't have an attachment to the ideas. But I had to live, I had to live for a while to realize that. I remember getting in an argument with my son's mother after I died, and I was talking loud. And I remember hearing myself talking loud, and it's like, why are you talking so loud? You know, you're not angry at anyone. And I, and I thought it was ridiculous, you know? And I saw, but I still can get triggered, you know? I still can get frustrated every now and then and impatient. But for the most part, I hear my thoughts, I hear my, I see my behavior,

• 17:37Jonathan Cohen?

  and I just can correct it before it goes awry. Or I can correct a thought before the thought becomes anything that I have to vocalize or act on.

• 17:45Mayim Bialik?

  You described a little bit that your brain changed, right? And the, one of the only ways to explain this, and I think, you know, we've spoken to many incredible people who have had NDEs, and Betty's a great example of someone who really was, you know, one specific chemical drug addiction, right? It was lifted for her kind of instantly, right? The rest had to still continue unfolding. But, you know, we spoke to Elizabeth Krone, and, you know, she's a friend of the podcast. Or like, she physiologically changed. She was struck by lightning, right? There's things that you can kind of point to. But what you're describing, I've never heard anyone describe like this, that it's as if your brain rewired and the parts of you that were geared for hatred, right?

• 18:28Mayim Bialik?

  Or for generalizing about a group of people? Or, you know, that amygdala response of everyone's against me and fuck you, and I'm gonna get my back up no matter what? It's like that, calm down, right? It's, it changed.

• 18:44Jonathan Cohen?

  The death, did it change something structural? Or was it that you experienced a level of love that allowed you, on an emotional level, to know that there was an alternative, right? We only see how wound up we are once we're able to fully relax, and we're never able to fully relax because we're so wound up.

• 19:05Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 19:06Jonathan Cohen?

  You got taken to this alternative state, this version of an afterlife, and you experienced the ultimate love.

• 19:13Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 19:14Jonathan Cohen?

  That may have been the only way for you to see just what you were carrying.

• 19:20Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 19:20Jonathan Cohen?

  Now, did that change your brain? Probably, but was it the brain that changed first or the love that we experienced?

• 19:28Mayim Bialik?

  Change your brain?

• 19:29Jonathan Cohen?

  The way I see even what a human being is, is probably like eight, at least eight pieces, you know? And the body is just one of them, you know? But my body changed, my spirit changed. And that's not easy to talk about, but if you speak about it in terms of the brain, it is. The limbic brain, if it's extremely active, you're gonna have a lot of fight or flight and anxiety and, you know, bad storytelling, making up stuff about reality, lying on reality. That's gonna be normal. So I know that that's where those things resides, in the body. And analogically, that's your spirit.

• 20:11Jonathan Cohen?

  And there is no separating the body from these other concepts. It's just, it's analogical. Everything is analogical in ancient thinking. And if it doesn't make sense from the nano to the cosmic, it's a human thought, it's a human idea that's made up. And there's nothing wrong with that. But our delusions should still be aligned with reality. And a lot of our delusions aren't aligned with reality. And that's when it creates problems in reality.

• 20:38Mayim Bialik?

  You just defined God as everything or God as nothing, which you hear a lot in 12-step meetings, right?

• 20:43Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, I speak about that program so highly because I tell people that I've met who've gone through it. They speak my language.

• 20:49Mayim Bialik?

  But that notion of like from the nano to the cosmic, right? Like if it doesn't make sense everywhere, it actually doesn't make sense.

• 20:56Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, I never heard that from that. But I do have a deep amount of respect for that.

• 21:02Mayim Bialik?

  Right, right.

• 21:04Jonathan Cohen?

  That whole orientation, it gives the person going through it spiritual autonomy, agency back. And that's what's necessary.

• 21:13Mayim Bialik?

  It was like dying taught you how to stop hating everyone. Right? Like it, and I think Jonathan asks such a nuanced question, right? Like, was it the experience or was it what you experienced? Because, you know, we're all told love is the answer, love can cure. And like you, see, I'm just gonna go on a limb here. You know, whatever you want to call God, like you experienced God's love. You experienced a love that is outside of the physical being. It's outside of our understanding and comprehension. And once you experience it, you're actually not supposed to necessarily come back because it means you died, right?

• 21:56Mayim Bialik?

  Like that changed your brain, right? That infused your body with something that it took time to percolate. But, you know.

• 22:06Jonathan Cohen?

  I think when I came out of the void, I didn't have much memory of David. And I think that's, that void felt like an intense love. Like, the closest thing to it is your first love or the person you love the most in a full-body orgasm, multiply times 10,000. That's what it felt like. And I felt like I was fixed when I came out of the void. I didn't have personal references to my experience like that. It was like I understood everything, but it wasn't because I learned it as David.

• 22:36Mayim Bialik?

  Well, you stopped taking everything so damn personally.

• 22:39Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 22:40Mayim Bialik?

  Right?

• 22:40Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 22:40Mayim Bialik?

  Like literally, you were, you were given the experience of you're gonna go through your life, taking everything personally or, you know, feeling that, you know, the entire fight is yours to win, right? Or that you have to defend.

• 22:53Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm gonna save the world, the whole black world especially, you know, at that time.

• 22:57Mayim Bialik?

  Right. And so the experience, the experience is like, well, what if we remove you from everything that you know about yourself? And then what's left over?

• 23:05Jonathan Cohen?

  Attention. That was what I was, in my opinion. And I know now that even here, my attention creates my experience. If I put my attention on hopeless ideas, I'm gonna experience hopelessness. If I put my attention on hopeful ideas and responsible things, accountable idea, then I'm gonna experience that. And if I see problems and I'm in a hopeful state, I want to solve them, not talk bad about, you know, the issues, you know? That's what my experience, the biggest change is that the things that made me angry now, I could think about them, maybe think about solutions to them. But in my anger, I never, I never had a solution to anything.

• 23:50Jonathan Cohen?

  I just had anger.

• 23:51Jonathan Cohen?

  What is your relationship with your intuition now or that voice that had guided you through childhood?

• 23:58Jonathan Cohen?

  It's constant now. It's, I felt like tortured for a while because I was all, it felt like I was judging myself, but it really just guiding myself, you know? But it, but it, for a while before I was, I was still very graceless. I was always having to course correct, always. So the voice was always saying, ah, it was, it felt like judgment, like it was nitpicking over behavior. But what I'm learning is that, what I learned even from my NDE is that the thoughts are the problem too, you know? So if you can't check your thoughts, then it really doesn't matter what behavior you engage in because it's an act. Your thoughts are your energy, the behavior is an act. So if you, if I, I used to go to job interviews

• 24:43Jonathan Cohen?

  and I would go into the job interview and there's a white guy interviewing me. And as soon as I came, oh, this white guy, I hate him, he hates me. I'm not gonna get the job. And I not get the job. And then I would leave and say, he was racist, that's why I didn't get the job. None of my thoughts influenced that. None of my prediction influenced that, none of my attention, you know? So now I blame myself for those types of encounters because I came in already predicting that it wasn't gonna work. I came in not even having the capacity to love this person in front of me, but I expected this person to somehow get some advice to say, yeah, he's the one. That doesn't work that way. There's nothing in his being that would have said that it was safe to have me working with him, the way that I behaved, you know, and the way that I thought.

• 25:25Mayim Bialik?

  It's such a humbling experience. And I think that's something we see in a lot of NDEs. It's like everything you thought, everything you thought was important or valuable, you know? It's just like, it's such a humbling experience, right?

• 25:38Jonathan Cohen?

  And I was a know-it-all, you know? So now I have no solid conclusions and I don't speak with extreme certainty about most things. I'm open to learning and refining my perspective always.

• 25:51Mayim Bialik?

  What you describe is something that, you know, most people will never experience. And I'm actually very curious, and this is just me being a nerd, like I'm very curious, you know, when your death happened because about 30% of people with cardiac, you know, events like this, right? When they are resuscitated will report in your death experience. So many people, you know, in cardiac units, unfortunately, you know, they die, they do not come back. When people do come back, when they're brought back, the way you were brought back, about 30% remember something. And I'd like to believe that everyone's having these experiences, but only some people are given this gift to kind of bring it back, right?

• 26:32Jonathan Cohen?

  Kind of like dreams, everybody don't remember it at rings.

• 26:35Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, exactly. But the things that you experienced, many people try and touch with transcendental meditation, other forms of meditation. And, and there's been a lot of conversation and indigenous communities for thousands of years have used plant medicine to kind of get at these things. And there are both plant medicines and also synthetic medications that, you know, kind of pull that veil of consciousness up and allow you to have experiences, I don't want to say that are similar because there's nothing, okay, great. Well, you're the one who gets to say it because you're the one who died.

• 27:09Jonathan Cohen?

  And I've had psychedelics.

• 27:10Mayim Bialik?

  Is this something you're comfortable talking about? Because I'm curious, where's the overlap, right? Like what's actually happening? Because we can't just dismiss these drugs as like a good time and it's just a party drug. Something's going on.

• 27:24Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm one of those people who, if you fall, bump your head and have an experience, it's no different than what I experienced if you have the same orientation afterwards. To me, it's not about the experience, it's about the orientation, the pivot afterwards. If you are the same idiot before your NDE that you were after the NDE, who cares about the experience? And there's a lot of people who take psychedelics regularly that are idiots still, you know? And every single time you speak to them, I'm tripping on this. And you're still an idiot, like, so what's the point of this, you know? So for me, it's not about the experience, it's about integrating and grounding it. And because so many people have these experiences

• 28:02Jonathan Cohen?

  and they try to tell you about the, the purple elephant that was flying. And it's like, well, what does it mean? I don't care to hear about a purple elephant flying. It doesn't mean anything to me. But if you could sit with your experience before you feel the need to always yell it from the rooftop because it's novel, and just ground it first, then you will, you will see that the response, the reception to it will be different. The three and a half years that I took to not share it, just ruminating over it. And then four years or so of talking it out with another person, even as I was sharing it, has allowed me to not view any of the experience itself as,

• 28:42Jonathan Cohen?

  the experiences are important, but it's you, how you integrated and grounded on the other side.

• 28:49Mayim Bialik?

  So in that sense, what do you see in terms of psychedelics? Is that a tool?

• 28:54Jonathan Cohen?

  It's a tool, it's an adjunct. But you get to a place where you don't need the adjuncts, you know? Like, once you awaken to that way of seeing reality, the adjuncts aren't necessary. I still would like to use some of these adjuncts because I never have before and I would like to be able to compare them to the NDE. So I'm still gonna try some more.

• 29:13Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 29:14Jonathan Cohen?

  Just to even be able to speak about it, you know, and compare it because there's, that is a big question.

• 29:19Mayim Bialik?

  We recently were talking about, you know, some of the incredible research, you know, with DMT, which is a very serious, very strong medication. Well, right, because what people report, and you know, there's, there's some very interesting studies, you know, trying to get people who know nothing about the expectation of the study to describe what they're seeing. And, you know, you have all these independent reports of very specific images and imagery, which, you know, is it the brain producing it or is it really reality that we're peeking into?

• 29:49Jonathan Cohen?

  To me, like the biggest difference between psychedelics and the NDE is every single time I've had psychedelics, mainly mushrooms, but I've done LSD and I have a whole movie idea.

• 30:04Jonathan Cohen?

  That came down, it downloaded after that. It was weird. But I call it the curators.

• 30:10Mayim Bialik?

  Huh.

• 30:11Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, but mushrooms.

• 30:15Jonathan Cohen?

  The visuals, I could see somebody, I could see. I've seen, I mean, I have my NDE. There was moments of just really strange visuals, especially as I was dying.

• 30:27Mayim Bialik?

  Like what?

• 30:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Just stuff not looking the way it looked when you were alive. Like the, it just kind of, I called it, I got, I, I, I tried to make myself remember stuff. Like I always like, I called it whatever you're caught with. See, I said C O T W F. Whatever you're caught with when you die is, is what you're going to experience in the transition. And caught with to me is the collapse of the wave function. So wherever it collapses and whatever your awareness is in that moment, you're going to experience things in, from that angle, you know? And so if you're angry, upset, and your wave function collapses, you're going to experience things as that energy, in my opinion.

• 31:12Jonathan Cohen?

  Same with NDEs, but with psychedelics, whatever you're caught with is stronger because it's still flowing through your body and it's still real, you know? When you leave the body, there's no anchor to the body. So you can leave those things and you have the, the life review. And that looks different. I've seen people describe TV screens showing them their whole story. For me, it was, I saw brief flashes of images, but it was mostly like a maybe 10 second, five, seven second dump of energy to where I understood how I made people feel. One of the biggest things that I,

• 31:55Jonathan Cohen?

  the simplest way to describe it would just be lying. But telling people that you're going to do something and not doing it. I felt that I had done that a lot, you know? Agreed to do something and I didn't follow through. And I could feel the disappointment from people who I had agreed to do it with.

• 32:12Mayim Bialik?

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• 33:40Mayim Bialik?

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• 35:10Mayim Bialik?

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• 36:45Mayim Bialik?

  It's completely risk free with a 30 day money back guarantee. Check the link in today's episode description to get started. You could feel other people's feelings.

• 36:55Jonathan Cohen?

  And debts. And it's not always money debts, but it is money debts. If you, if I thought about those people that I owed money to as I was leaving there, but it was also not just the money, it was the grace that they extended to me. I don't think I extended it back, you know? So the feeling of reciprocity wasn't there and that person probably felt that. And I felt it in that moment.

• 37:15Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, I mean, it's definitely different than the other life reviews that we've heard about, but I'm thinking of even Betty. Betty was able to sort of actively experience the, the pain of the people she had hurt. She experienced her father's pain at leaving her, right? Like all these things. And, you know, it's almost like an emotional reconciliation, right?

• 37:39Jonathan Cohen?

  That's what I view it as. I don't view that life review as something that,

• 37:45Jonathan Cohen?

  that you should take and be like, oh man, my life review showed me this. Oh, man, no, it's, this is the final time for you to detach from the things that you held your attention on so, so deeply in this experience. The life review is always going to be the things that your attention, that stuck in your attention, always.

• 38:02Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 38:03Jonathan Cohen?

  If it, if, because if you did, if you were Christian and you, and you didn't worship Jesus, you wouldn't see Jesus all the time.

• 38:09Mayim Bialik?

  There's a lot of people who also feel like if you, if people see Jesus during NDEs, it's proof that Jesus is the true God, which like, I don't have much attachment to truth in that sense, just because it's all one anyway.

• 38:22Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, I have an extreme amount of respect for the idea of Jesus and Christianity, like deeply, you know? Even from the, from the point of seeing that energy in different forms in the past and loving them then, you know? So it's not a thing of me trying to question people's religion. It's just the way that we approach religion oftentimes is divisive and violent. And we've been killing ourselves, each other over bad storytelling for far too long, you know?

• 38:51Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 38:52Jonathan Cohen?

  And these stories have origins and it's not where, where we are with these stories, it's not where these stories began. And killing each other over it doesn't make sense to me.

• 39:00Mayim Bialik?

  You mentioned past lives. What's your current understanding of not just your past lives, but how the system is set up?

• 39:08Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 39:11Jonathan Cohen?

  I think that there were cultures who, who.

• 39:17Jonathan Cohen?

  They created reincarnation. They practiced, uh, practices that brought back certain types to keep society stable. You know, if a person performed well in this role, then let's bring them back and perform well in this role again. And I think that's what happened in ancient times, but there's no practice of reincarnating. There's no people calling certain spirits back anymore. And so it's willy nilly now. So a pharaoh can be born in Norway. You know?

• 39:43Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 39:43Jonathan Cohen?

  And, uh, but I do think that we come and we go. And most of the traditions, the ancient mystical parts of it spoke about. That's what it's speaking about. Becoming aware in this life that you're not a body, that you have your, uh, agency to come and go. Almost all of the mystical teachings, uh, are trying to ground people in that knowing that you're not a body. You are a soul or whatever you want to call it, and it's not really destructible. And you're, and when you leave the body, you realize that you are actually experiencing reality from that thing. And it's not physical. And, and it's strange. It's, uh, but it's, that's what you are. And

• 40:23Jonathan Cohen?

  nothing happens to it.

• 40:24Mayim Bialik?

  And I think one of the things that's so interesting to me about even the conversation about past lives, like you, before you died, you weren't the dude who was like, let's talk about past lives.

• 40:34Jonathan Cohen?

  I, even NDEs, I was cynical about NDEs because of what you said. Everybody was seeing Jesus and saying, and now you have to believe in Jesus now. Cause I saw Jesus when I, and it's like, that doesn't mean I have to believe.

• 40:46Mayim Bialik?

  This is common in other, others that we've spoke. It's like you've been given a new identity, right? As someone who can speak to this stuff and had experiences firsthand, which Jeffrey Kreipel, who worked with Elizabeth Krone, who was a professor of, um, religious studies at Rice, you know? He said, there is a context for all of these experiences that goes back thousands of years. We're just dropping into them.

• 41:09Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah. Even, I've read like strange things that make strange suggestions about even what baptism was. There's like an archaeology of baptism, I think is a book about it. And it talked about how he literally were drowning people so that they could have experiences.

• 41:24Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, well, well, and also, I mean, I can speak to that just as a Jewish person because baptism comes from a ritual purification, which is called the mikvah. And the mikvah was supposed to be, it's a rebirth. You have an opportunity to essentially spiritually like die and be reborn. And for women, you know, when I was married, I went every month. It's a practice that we still do in traditional communities. And that is the notion is that when you immerse, you have the opportunity to be born again.

• 41:56Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 41:56Mayim Bialik?

  Every part of you, the water has to touch every part of you as if you're coming out of amniotic fluid. So when you put these things together historically, it's like, yeah, we're all just kind of like trying to get at this same sort of concept, right?

• 42:09Jonathan Cohen?

  I think so. I always, now everything is one to me. Uh, I, I can hear somebody speaking about something that they think should contradict how I think. I'm like, no, I believe that too. I accept that as a, as a possibility too. Like, uh, all of it is possible because when I was out of my body, here's another thing I saw that I don't talk about much is that, uh, at the back of space.

• 42:33Mayim Bialik?

  Which already is an amazing phrase.

• 42:34Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah. At the, as far as I could see, it was like behind space was a grid. It was a grid. And I've, I've mentioned it in, uh, to, to, um, at Indian, uh, uh, I, I call him a guru because he knows everything.

• 42:52Mayim Bialik?

  Whoa, what kind of grid? I mean, I have an idea.

• 42:55Jonathan Cohen?

  He called it the, uh, the web of Indra. But it just looked like, uh, a web, um, a grid. It looked like the framework upon which all of this was placed. So before my NDE, when people said matrix, this is a, this is a matrix. I would be like, yeah, you can't explain that though. So I don't really care what you say about it. It's just a bunch of, you watched the movie Matrix. And now that word is stuck in your head.

• 43:21Mayim Bialik?

  Was like a uniform grid?

• 43:23Jonathan Cohen?

  Because it was enveloping everything. It didn't look like perfectly shaped. It was like, may have been some angle to it. Yeah.

• 43:33Mayim Bialik?

  It's gonna bend.

• 43:34Jonathan Cohen?

  Yes, it was bend, it was bending, but it was a grid.

• 43:37Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, you're just, you know enough about physics. You're also describing sort of the way people, you know, have, that we can lay out time and matter. And it's like, you know, there's universal things that our brains can understand.

• 43:53Jonathan Cohen?

  As someone who thinks about tech,

• 43:57Jonathan Cohen?

  if this world was created and placed somehow, it needs to be placed somewhere. That grid is the thing that just keeps.

• 44:05Mayim Bialik?

  Like the Truman Show.

• 44:06Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah. It's like the boundary of our existence whereby the earth prevents the earth from drifting out slowly.

• 44:14Mayim Bialik?

  It's the boundary of our consciousness.

• 44:16Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Mayim Bialik?

  Because there's something beyond us. I think you may have gone there, but meaning the grid is as much as we can understand, right?

• 44:25Jonathan Cohen?

  Even where I went, I feel like it's a part of this system.

• 44:27Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, exactly. That grid is, is past where you went.

• 44:31Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 44:32Mayim Bialik?

  The back of space.

• 44:33Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, it was like, it was like, it seemed like the end of it. And there was this grid.

• 44:37Jonathan Cohen?

  Just cords and cables beyond that.

• 44:39Mayim Bialik?

  It's a simulation. No, but like if it's a simulation, that's what it's gonna look like. It's the Truman Show.

• 44:44Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah. It's just Elon servers past there.

• 44:47Mayim Bialik?

  Stop it. Stop it.

• 44:49Jonathan Cohen?

  I almost feel like, you know, what's past there is if it is, if there is a God that is, is a thing, a personality, or if it's an alien that has the intelligence to create this type of reality, that's who's back there. It's, that's the realm where they exist.

• 45:07Jonathan Cohen?

  It's just a gray office filled with people typing to make sure that this doesn't fall apart.

• 45:13Jonathan Cohen?

  I don't know how to explain that part of it at all. Um, that's when to me, the imagination becomes necessary, you know, because it's beyond,

• 45:23Jonathan Cohen?

  it's beyond what's normal. It's beyond, like, I can think about it, you know, but I, I would be using tips from my ancestors. Ancient texts, ancient texts tell us some of this stuff. We, we think, uh, every God that has the capacity to create something is worth worshipping.

• 45:41Jonathan Cohen?

  That's not the case.

• 45:43Mayim Bialik?

  I think social media has taught us that. You can worship that too.

• 45:46Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, like even Sophia, after she created Demiur, she said, she went to God, the ineffable God and said, this is the worst thing I've ever done was create Jehovah, because him and his humans are up to so much mischief and there's no limit to what they can do. Now, I know that that could be, that's not me making this up. That's in the Gnostic text, that's in the Nag Hammadi library.

• 46:11Jonathan Cohen?

  Sophia created, uh, Yehudah Bar, who was considered, uh, is a Yahweh, I think Yahweh. And, um, that's who we worship. And, and, and some people say that that is just a creator. But he was created and she tricked him into breathing the breath of God into humans and make them walk upright. Cause, uh, she went to God to ask for advice as to what she could do, cause she created Jehovah and he was a problem. And she was like, I made this mistake. I always make it and put it in my language. And, uh, and I don't know what to do with this badass God over here. He's just acting up and made these stupid little humans and they don't know what to do. And he's telling them to do all this. And, uh, and he's, God told her, I, I breathe my breath into you. You breathe your breath into him. Get him to breathe his breath into them.

• 46:57Jonathan Cohen?

  And now we all one, pretty much.

• 46:59Mayim Bialik?

  Are there angels? Do you believe in them?

• 47:03Jonathan Cohen?

  The, that word probably because I have a history of always trying to be ornery and, uh, and contrarian to religion. I, I don't like a lot of religious words, but, um, yes.

• 47:16Mayim Bialik?

  If you were to put into your own words, what other people would call angel, like, do people have guides?

• 47:21Jonathan Cohen?

  When I was traveling through space, I felt like if I traveled long enough, I probably could have found this place while disembodied. And I would have had an agenda here. And if I learned how to communicate with people, I would have been considered an angel. But it was because I have responsibility to this place, whether I'm embodied or disembodied. And I will come back here to try to serve. So I think angels, in my opinion, just serve. They serve humanity. They might have an affinity to a particular people because of anything. It could be literally that they inhabited a body that was related to this person at a different time. And I'm gonna come serve you.

• 47:56Mayim Bialik?

  Right, cause sometimes people will say.

• 47:58Jonathan Cohen?

  There's an affinity there. Yeah. And it could just be an energetic affinity or it could be a, an experienced affinity, you know? And, and, but I think people have, and even in Itham, it's a, a West African tradition. You have a concept called Egbe. And this is like your spiritual family and they care about you. They're not embodied, you know, but they care about you.

• 48:17Mayim Bialik?

  Vinnie Tolman.

• 48:18Jonathan Cohen?

  Yep.

• 48:19Mayim Bialik?

  Do you know Vinnie?

• 48:20Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, I met him a couple of times at conferences.

• 48:22Mayim Bialik?

  Vinnie's guide, when he died, it turned out, he found out later, was actually someone who was related to him, right? So just even this notion that we have guides like that.

• 48:32Jonathan Cohen?

  I think sometimes we do use too much imaginative language to describe this and too much, um, religious language to describe it. But I think it's, it's no less real, it's real. I think it's, uh, that's honestly, the voice that speaks to me constantly, I could say that that's an angel. I could say that it's Egbe. I could say that it's, it's a, a spirit that loves me. I could say that it's me, you know, whatever. But I do, as long as the, the messages are hopeful and responsible and, and, um, and not pointing fingers or judging others, I know that there's a voice worth listening to. But as soon as that voice is critiquing reality and telling you that something's wrong with someone, uh, or calling people evil, that's not a voice worth listening to.

• 49:17Mayim Bialik?

  Final question. What is it like to be a dad, to raise a kid with the information and the experiences that you've had? What does he think?

• 49:28Jonathan Cohen?

  He, um, I talked to him and I said, um, do you remember how I was before, before? And he's, and he just says, uh, He used to be, and I let my son speak his mind. I let him cuss. I don't, I try to tell him, don't cuss out. But I'm sure he's cussing out. You know, but he, I said, um, he said, you used to be an asshole. And he was like nine or 10 when he said that. He said, you used to be a real asshole. He said, you were mean. He said, he said, you don't fuss that much anymore. You're, um, he said, you're just calmer. And from him, that means the world to me. Now, what I want to do, um, when I think he's, um, and I inject little things here and there.

• 50:12Jonathan Cohen?

  I try to teach him without it being obvious that I'm trying to teach him. So I'm, I'm trying to help him see reality in a way that's, is healthy without it being a philosophy.

• 50:23Mayim Bialik?

  Is he dreamy like you were?

• 50:25Jonathan Cohen?

  I think he's more grounded than I am. I was in the clouds always. He's grounded, he's happy. And I love that because I was miserable. I was, I was a depressed kid, having an existential crisis. Let's ask him about death, like scared of death at age seven, you know? And, um, and he's just happy. And to see him happy is, is like, um, he's not like me. You know what I'm saying? And that, that's, that is, I don't want him to grow up with the anger that I did. With very useless philosophies, you know, that, uh, that's, that I single out, uh, one thing and act as though

• 51:09Jonathan Cohen?

  there's nothing else in existence, you know, like that's not healthy. And so he, to me, is a, has a, he's well-rounded, he's intelligent, he's, he's just turned 12 in March, right? But he's five eight, like 180 pounds. He's a giant and he's, but he's, they, he says, some people call him a gentle giant. Because he's not mean at all like I was. He's a competitive, he's happy, you know? And, uh, that, for me, to be, to, to come from where I came from and have the disposition that I did, to have a child that is just happy, it means a lot to me. That means a lot to me.

• 51:46Jonathan Cohen?

  That's a great gift.

• 51:47Mayim Bialik?

  David Williamson, this was absolutely unreal. You're absolutely unreal. Thank you so much for sharing with us.

• 51:54Jonathan Cohen?

  Thank you. Thank y'all for having me.

• 51:55Mayim Bialik?

  Of course.

• 52:00Jonathan Cohen?

  He said something about how when he hears people talking, that he, that they think it's about different things, but it's really about the same thing. And we had a similar experience. It wasn't really philosophical per se, but I was talking about a deck. You were talking about a platform. We fought for weeks about this. And it was, when we actually started to unpack it, we both were talking about a version of the same thing. Maybe there was a 15% difference, but it divided us. And I just thought, we can continue to come together, realizing that it's all the same.

• 52:39Mayim Bialik?

  I think that sometimes you call rugs carpets and it confuses everyone.

• 52:44Jonathan Cohen?

  It's my Canadian upbringing.

• 52:45Mayim Bialik?

  I don't know what happens in Canada, but sometimes words, we were actually, you know what? This is a good time to bring this up. We were watching something and you're like, it's a set.

• 52:55Jonathan Cohen?

  Okay, I'm showing her the future of filmmaking. There's like these videos, I got sent it by a producer friend of mine. And it's an immersive soundstage where it's like, it's not even a green screen. It's like this amazing new technology.

• 53:10Mayim Bialik?

  It looked like the Universal Studios tram ride with King Kong around you.

• 53:14Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, so you're in this like massive warehouse and the guy's walking in the warehouse. And then it's an immersive environment. So the entire, the floor is a screen, the, the background is a screen. And, and you can create anything. So all of a sudden he's walking and now he's in a desert and it looks like a 3D environment. And then like a dinosaur comes in and like, looks like it just goes right past his head.

• 53:36Mayim Bialik?

  I don't spend any time in AI world. I barely spend any time on the internet, looking at anything like visually interesting, innovative. Like I watch my documentaries and I type things and I interact with you guys. I don't know what things look like these days. So Jonathan says to me, it's a screen.

• 53:56Jonathan Cohen?

  No, I say, I say, it's an immersive studio.

• 53:59Mayim Bialik?

  It's immersive, no, you didn't use the word immersive. You were just like.

• 54:03Jonathan Cohen?

  Oh, I said a digital studio.

• 54:05Mayim Bialik?

  He said, it's a digital studio. And I don't understand. I'm like, well, what do you mean? Where are we? And you're like, what, what don't you understand about digital studio?

• 54:13Jonathan Cohen?

  No, no, hold on.

• 54:14Mayim Bialik?

  How could you not understand what I mean? And I'm like, I don't know what I'm looking at.

• 54:18Jonathan Cohen?

  So sometimes you ask me questions and they are, I don't know what it is that you want me to explain. So it was very playful. You were like, what is, what is that? I said, it's a digital studio.

• 54:31Mayim Bialik?

  Saying those words.

• 54:31Jonathan Cohen?

  And you said, what? And so I wanted to see what part of that you were gonna pick apart? Or if you were gonna ask me another question?

• 54:39Mayim Bialik?

  I'm gonna relate this to the episode in a second.

• 54:42Jonathan Cohen?

  What I'm looking for is you to say like, that guy, like, how are they making those images appear on the, on the wall? Like, where did the dinosaur come from? So I will answer that, I'll be like, oh, they create that in AI and that's how, and everything's a screen. But what you say is, what is that again? And I say, digital studio. And then you say, what? And I say, digital studio.

• 55:08Mayim Bialik?

  So this is just like communication 101. If someone doesn't understand something, it doesn't help for you to just repeat the same thing.

• 55:16Jonathan Cohen?

  Just ask a question, don't just say what.

• 55:19Mayim Bialik?

  The reason, the reason this relates to the episode is that when we kind of like looked into it deeper, there were some words missing that were helpful.

• 55:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Immersive.

• 55:29Mayim Bialik?

  Immersive.

• 55:29Jonathan Cohen?

  Digital studio. There's just one extra word I added. And you still said, what?

• 55:36Mayim Bialik?

  The, the reason it relates to this episode though, is, you know, it, it depends on how you look at things, right? And.

• 55:45Jonathan Cohen?

  Sophia breathed breath into humans and then we stopped understanding each other and we're up to mischief. That's.

• 55:52Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, this is, this is really, you know, um, a very, very unique, um, a very unique NDE in that it encompassed so many other of the NDEs that felt so unique, right? His, his experience, his understanding, and in particular, the exploration he's done after. I think, um, I don't know, just feels like it ties together so many of the other themes that, you know, keep coming up for us here. One of the things we didn't get to speak about as much was, um, a lot of the physiological challenges that actually David continues to experience. And we actually have a link.

• 56:32Mayim Bialik?

  There's, um, yeah, there's actually a place where you can, um, learn more about what he's been going through and be part of that if you would like to. So we'll include that link as well. Really, really such a, such a phenomenal conversation. Just really feel so blessed to get to meet David Williamson. So please join us on Substack. We know there'll be a lot of conversation about this episode and there's content there that you can't get anywhere else. So head over to biologicbreakdown.substack.com. And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we will see you next time.