Do The Work: NBA Superstar Chris Paul On Mastery, Mentorship, Leadership & Sustained Excellence

Chris Paul is one of the greatest basketball players of all time: a 12-time NBA All-Star, an All-Star Game MVP, 2-time Olympic gold medalist. NBA Rookie of the Year, and Players Association President between 2013 - 2021. Off the court, Chris is a family man, entrepreneur, activist, and philanthropist. His new book "Sixty-One" hits bookstores everywhere this week. This is a conversation about work-ethic, grit, mentorship, and leadership. We discuss his grandfather's impact on his life, the demands of mastery, how to sustain elite performance over time, what leadership means, how Chris' plant-based diet has improved his performance, and the many ways Chris has leveraged his voice, platform, and resources for maximum social impact. It was an absolute pleasure and honor to talk with a man I respect tremendously. I hope you enjoy this powerful and valuable episode. Show notes + MORE Watch on Youtube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: LMNT: drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL Athletic Greens: http://drinkAG1.com/richroll Peak Design: PeakDesign.com/RICHROLL Plant Power Meal Planner: https://meals.richroll.com SriMu: http://srimu.com/rrp Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:13Speaker 01

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Everything that you want is on the other side of hard. If you fall in love with the work aspect of it, the success and the accolades that come with it, but you gotta fall in love with the work.

• 1:30Rich Roll?

  You are in for a treat today. One of the greatest basketball players of all time is in the house, and it is a banger.

• 1:42Speaker 02

  That is Chris Paul. Chris Paul. He is the point god.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  You've got old Chris Paul down at the end.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  The great point guards in the history of the game, Olympian. President of the NBA Players Association.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  If you didn't know, now you know.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Sport has taught me everything in life. It's taught me about sacrifice, hard work. It's taught me about pain.

• 2:05Rich Roll?

  What was it about your grandfather that made him such an indelible figure in your life?

• 2:11Speaker 04

  The day before Jones was killed, he was here, watching his grandson sign with Wake Forest.

• 2:15Speaker 05

  Is that Wake Forest hat that Chris is wearing in that shot?

• 2:20Speaker 05

  Chris sees on a plan to honor his grandfather in his next game, scoring one point for every year of his grandfather's life.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  He just made me feel different.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Man, this ain't supposed to be this kind of podcast.

• 2:38Rich Roll?

  I got a couple more things I would very much like to mention before we dig into this one, but first.

• 2:46Rich Roll?

  Okay, Chris Paul, AKA CP3, the point god himself, one of the greatest basketball players of all time, can now add author to his long list of accomplishments. His memoir entitled 61 is a really beautiful book and it chronicles his life both on and off the court and the important role that his grandfather played in molding him into the man and the father he is today. We talk about legacy, leadership, the importance of mentorship and work ethic and how he is leveraging his voice for maximum social impact, not just as an athlete, but as a storyteller,

• 3:29Rich Roll?

  as an entrepreneur and as a philanthropist. So get into it and enjoy.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  The ultra is nuts.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  You did those, the ultra trials.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 3:42Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's my whole deal.

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Huh?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, that's, that's my whole trip.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  It's his whole thing.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Hold up, timeout.

• 3:50Rich Roll?

  I wrote a book about it, I'll give it to you.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's how he got, that's, that's how this whole thing started.

• 3:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  Following group, yeah.

• 3:59Rich Roll?

  Ultra distance, ultra marathon.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  I was just telling him that Jesse Isler is in my fantasy football league.

• 4:04Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah? Yeah, he's a, he's a really good buddy of mine.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Jesse?

• 4:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Jesse literally texted me this morning. I seen him run, like, the one thing, you probably know about it, what's the thing when at night you, you run on this trail?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Like you start, like say you start at 2 o'clock. You start running and then whatever time you get back, it like starts again at like 3 o'clock.

• 4:29Rich Roll?

  Last man standing? That. Oh, the big's backyard. Yeah.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  No, no, the last man standing thing.

• 4:35Rich Roll?

  You do the loop and then you do, you do the loop on the hour until everybody, you know, craps out.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Man, listen. I followed, I followed that whole situation, right? Cause it was, it's like a day. It's like a whole day go by and you still running.

• 4:54Rich Roll?

  Oh, it goes on for days. It goes on longer than that.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  And what's so important about it and why like I appreciate that stuff is watching the team. Like the team of people. So for you to do the, the ultra.

• 5:08Rich Roll?

  Ultraman.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  How many people did you have on your team?

• 5:11Rich Roll?

  So Trapper was on my crew. It was my family in 2009 when I did it. Yeah, but then we had, we had Alan also. Yeah, five people in a van.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, they always see the people in the van. Got the food, got the recovery.

• 5:26Rich Roll?

  It's a team sport. You can't do that shit alone, man.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:29Rich Roll?

  You know, and crewing for those races is, is extremely demanding. You know, people think, how hard can it be? You just hand them a bottle. You make sure they're fed. Um, but you know, Trapper can tell you like it's, it's exhausting. And these guys have done like, Jason's done 100 miler. Blake's done, what's the longest one? You haven't done 100 yet. You did 50. Yeah, 50K, so.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Y'all tripping.

• 5:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man. I know.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  See, the part, the part that blows my mind for real is the swimming.

• 5:59Rich Roll?

  That's my background though. That's the easy part for me.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  No. So my trainer, when I played for the Clippers, uh, his name was, um, Richard Williams. He was our head trainer for the Clippers. And what I appreciated about him was that we would travel on a road trip and get into a city at 1 o'clock. And Rich would get up at 6 a.m., 7 a.m. Cause he was training for, um.

• 6:20Rich Roll?

  Like an Ironman or something?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  An Ironman, right? And I went to San Diego to, he didn't even know I was coming. He had a, what's the thing like before Ironman? Like the smaller one, the half Ironman? I drove to San Diego to surprise him and showed up for him. You know what I mean? Just showed up to, to, to support him and I watched him swim and then get out and then you bike and then you run? Ain't no way.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Ain't no way. Ain't no way. Cause he talk about how everybody in the water.

• 6:51Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of triathletes listening right now are very excited to hear you say that.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  People kick you in the water, right?

• 6:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it gets pretty hectic in the bigger races. Yeah, there's a lot of jostling around, climbing on top of each other and stuff like that. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't happen that much. I don't know. It's not as bad as an elbow in the face or, you know, whatever you're dealing with. I don't think.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  I know you're gonna ask me questions, but I'm so curious. Like, what?

• 7:17Speaker 01

  So, training for that?

• 7:19Rich Roll?

  It depends. It depends on whether, um, what your goal is. Like, do you want to just finish? Are you trying to win? Are you trying to meet some kind of time standard? And also, what is your level of experience? Um, so that's gonna dictate like your training program.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Were you trying to finish or were you trying to make a time?

• 7:34Rich Roll?

  I mean, I was doing it for high performance, so it was like a job. I mean, I was doing many other things, but at the peak, I was probably training 20, 25 hours a week for a pretty good extended period of time. You have to put in a lot of hours and it's just a, you know, it's a grind. It's a slog. It's different from an agility and power and skill sport like, like basketball, but it has its own demands and, you know, particularly like the, the sort of mental fatigue and exhaustion that you have to like contend with. But, you know.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know about that.

• 8:07Rich Roll?

  It's all hard, man. When you're trying to do something at a high level, it doesn't matter whether it's a hundred meter sprint or a hundred mile run or, you know, what you're doing. Like, you have to, you know, basically sacrifice a lot in the pursuit of mastery.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  I believe, I was in the gym last night. Um, I had a long day yesterday. With book stuff, my kids. I don't even remember what I did yesterday. I just remember what I did last night. As far as the gym, I went, uh, somewhere with my wife, then I came home. Literally got home, got my son, went to the gym. Had a kid meet me at the gym and we worked out for probably about two and a half hours to probably about 8:30. Then took my son home so that he could go to the airport. So he could fly to North Carolina and be with my parents for a few days. But, the kid that I was working out with is a kid named Mercy Miller, who's, he goes to Notre Dame.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  He's, uh, Notre Dame High School here. He's one of the best players in the country. When I lived in Calabasas, he lived down the street from me and he used to come over my house all the time. So at that time... Mercy had to be like 12, 11, 12. But now he's potentially, I mean, he'll be a senior in high school, could go to college for one year and I might be playing against him.

• 9:27Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You stick around long enough, as long as you you've been playing. And and suddenly, you know, yeah, you're like in this weird, multi-generational kind of space. Where you've seen it all over many years.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  But the stuff that I can appreciate, like you said, is the the discipline aspect of it. So even though I play basketball, if I watch like an ultra or if I watch a marathon, I'm I'm looking at what you're doing, but I'm thinking about, damn, he had to wake up early, you know, he had to wake up early to train for this. Like, everybody see the finished product, but a lot of people don't think about

• 10:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  the training that went into it. So like, what was the hardest part for you, do you think? Diet?

• 10:09Rich Roll?

  I mean, I think the hardest part is just the relentless day after day aspect of it. You know, just getting up day after day, the slog when you're exhausted and, you know, you just don't, you're not feeling it and having to, you know, show up for it with that level of like consistency and intentionality over an extended period of time. You know, it's not, I I don't know that it's any different, no matter what sport that you're in, or or even if you're pursuing some other kind of thing that you're trying to be great at, you know, it requires that level of like focus and intensity and prioritization, all of it, right? And I think, you know, to kind of get into, you know, the the actual podcast that we're gonna do,

• 10:50Rich Roll?

  like, that's, um, that's like a really big recurring theme in your book. I mean, you keep kind of pivoting back to this idea of work ethic and hard work and determination. And and you use your grandfather, Papa, as like a vehicle, this mentor looming, you know, large, very important mentor figure in your life to illustrate like how you, you know, sort of inherited like that sensibility that clearly, you know, you are trying to say is integral to like your success.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. And I don't know, I think.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Like, it's really hard. People don't realize how hard it is to be good at anything, but the commitment, like you said, that goes into it, it's tough. It's the waking up every day, it's the, the, the one thing that's really hard, and that's why I was asking you, is diet.

• 11:45Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Right? People don't realize how much you have to plan, right? You have to plan. And so your last one was at what age?

• 11:53Rich Roll?

  Last, like, last big race that I did?

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:56Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's been a while. I'm, I'm 56 now. The last really hard thing I did, I was 51, but when I was at my peak, I was like 43, 44.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Alright, man.

• 12:05Rich Roll?

  It's a late in the life thing, you know? Um, and I also have, like, an incredibly supportive family and wife, and my wife's an amazing cook, and, you know, she handled, like, the food part of that. But yeah, you gotta be really intentional about not just your food, but it is the little details. Like, if you're running a multi-day race, you have to be so on top of all these little things, like, do you have the Vaseline that you're gonna put in between your toes with the, so if you forget, like, one tiny thing, over that extended period of time, you know, you get a blister and you're done. Like, one little thing can derail the whole mission. So you have to be kind of always thinking about that kind of stuff and being ahead of the curve on it.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  The one word that I know my son probably hates to hear, like, even, even if somebody else says this word, I'm sure my son probably, like, shakes a little bit, right? Because he just hears me say it all the time, and the word is details.

• 13:03Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Right? So, we're working out in the gym, and we're shooting shots, and my son will put his foot on the line, right? Shooting a three-pointer, but if your foot is on the line, it's a what? It's a two.

• 13:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  Right? And he'll shoot it, and the first thing, I don't even look to see if it went in first. I just look to see if his foot was on the line. And if he make it, I'd be like, don't count.

• 13:25Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 13:25Speaker 01

  Right? Because we're doing a particular drill, and he And I'd be like, details, like every, everything matters. Not saying that you did it on purpose or anything like that, but it's those little details that

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  That matter.

• 13:38Rich Roll?

  How do you stay enthusiastic about that after so many years? I mean, you've been doing this for a long time, right? And it's one thing to come out hot as a young person and, you know, be running and gunning. And, and, you know, make all of those, you know, detail oriented decisions, number one priority. But you're, you live a really big life now. You got a lot of people pulling on you. And it would be very easy to be distracted or to start to just kind of like decide, you know, I got this handled, like I'm good enough, like I got, you know, another couple of years of this or whatever, like, so how do you stay super energized and, and, you know, kind of on top of those details?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a competitiveness is, I mean, especially as a parent too.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  So many things that be going through my head at times. If you just be honest, like there's, there's this part of me that's a caregiver too, right? When it comes to providing for my family, like I'm also making ends meet to make sure everyone is good. There's also an ego thing with my kids, right? And my son is a hooper.

• 14:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Like I want my son to be able to say, my dad nice. You know what I'm saying? My dad can hoop, you know, there's that aspect of it. And then the, the big one is just, I just compete regardless of whatever it is. Like if it's Connect Four, if it's, if we play horseshoes, you probably swim a lot faster than me, but I try.

• 15:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  I try, I try as long as my feet can touch the.

• 15:21Rich Roll?

  Doesn't matter what it is. It's game on.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm not swimming against you in the ocean. I need to be in a pool that my feet are standing, you know what I mean? I just, I love the competition of it. And the other thing is the appreciation and the gratitude. And I'll say this because I don't, I don't know your family or your upbringing, but in the book, I talk about my grandfather, how he owned a service station. Like I used to be there working, like changing oil, rotating tires.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  My dad worked on an assembly line. My mom worked at a bank. And I'm not sure, I don't think my mom was like a little kid. And someone asked her what she wanted to do and she was like, oh, I want to work for Wachovia Bank. Right? So I wanted to be a basketball player. I get to be a basketball player. Right? So why not work hard and do all this different type of stuff? Because, I mean, I don't want to say too much, but when you were a kid, and like I say, I don't know background, but I was like, man, if I ever got a million dollars, everybody gonna be good. Right?

• 16:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I ain't know, ain't nobody ever gonna have to worry about anything again. But you start to realize, and once you start to get to know people and things like this, like, of course, the money is amazing, but it's the work. Right? So I know billionaires, they still work every day. So there's no, like, I'm gonna get to this point and stop working.

• 17:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Or, or that you, when you achieve that goal, or you get that accolade, that, you know, then you're gonna feel a certain way and have this idea that everything is complete in your life.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Man, I'm telling you, and it's so crazy. Of course, there's all these jokes, he ain't want no ring, he ain't want no nothing. So the Nuggets won the championship the other night. And DeAndre Jordan was one of my teammates when I played for the Clippers. But more so than that, he's like my brother. I called him yesterday morning, because I knew he was out partying the night before. I called him yesterday morning on FaceTime and I was like emotional and just so happy for him. Right? So happy for him that he won. And he was talking about like, see, man, I always wondered what this was gonna feel like, or what that was gonna feel like. And, you know, he was talking about it. And I've actually had those thoughts before, like, what would that feel like?

• 17:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  When that does happen? And I know I'm gonna be so excited and happy for my family and everybody to be around. But I always be like, you know, that next day, or even after the parade.

• 18:03Rich Roll?

  You're still you.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Just knowing me.

• 18:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm gonna be so happy, you know what I mean? But I know. After that parade, if not that next morning, the very next morning, I would be in the gym at 6:00, 7:00 a.m. You know, so.

• 18:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the hard work, the grit, but also, you know, I was listening to you on, uh, on the Pivot Podcast and you were talking about, uh, how you're a people pleaser.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's hard to say no to people. You want to be able to show up for the people that care about you and the way that others have shown up for you over the course of your life and your Papa and all of that. But also, those two like values can come into conflict, right? Like if you, if you gotta work hard, you gotta put the blinders on, you gotta go away, you gotta focus, you gotta go to the woodshed.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:48Rich Roll?

  Be with yourself, your teammates, et cetera. And then the people pleaser thing, like with the life that you live, like you're a one man, like empire industry, you got so many things going on. And I'm sure a lot of people rolling up on you all the time, wanting something, and you being a people pleaser, wanting to make them happy, uh, that can be without like healthy boundaries or, you know, good people around you could be, you know, draining or really kind of like, you know, put your whole situation in peril because you're just distracted all the time. So how do you like work through that?

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Man, it had gotten so bad one time with the Clippers where I tried to, during the playoffs, uh, I would cut my phone off. And then I'd actually got like a chip, like a chip, like a different chip for a different phone number during the playoffs, just to try to stay, you know, locked in, you know, cause distractions, they come even when you try not to let them in, you know?

• 19:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  It's always been tough, still trying to figure that part out because I've always been, um, what's the word? Uh, approachable, but.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Accessible, right? And so you make yourself accessible, you know, hoping that people don't take advantage of it or whatnot, but that's not always the case. And then as the union president for eight years, I had to be accessible. I had to make sure that players could get a hold of me if need be, or if people at the office needed to get a hold of me. But I'm definitely a work in progress with that, and especially with my kids, like trying to make sure that they get their time.

• 20:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Are you somebody who, when it's really loud, it makes you calm? Like, there's these stories of like brain scans of high performers that, you know, when the crowd is at its loudest.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  I can't hear nothing.

• 20:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like you're just, you're in that zone.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  It gets so loud sometimes that I don't hear anything. You know, and that's, who knows where that comes from? I think it comes from a lot of experience, but there's a focus, right? Like, all my, all my friends that I grew up with or my homies, they, they always talk about. So I play golf every now and then, right? Not the greatest or whatnot, and golf or whatnot, but if we play for something, my game is totally different. I've just always been like that. Like, I don't want to do anything for shits and giggles. Right? Like, if we put a trash can out there, and me and you had, like, balled up trash, and we shooting it, let's shoot for something.

• 21:26Rich Roll?

  There's no, there's no off switch.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  It's, for pushups. That's fine. Let's shoot for pushups. Let's, yeah, it's really no off.

• 21:37Rich Roll?

  I watched that. The, you do these, these little interviews with people for Bloomberg, and I watched the one you do with Michael Phelps. I was like, dude, he's pretty competitive himself, right? Like, did you guys go after it?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Man, so the, the, the cool thing about Phelps, man, who, and I mean this when I say that, like Phelps is like my family. And we have the same financial advisor. That's how we got to know each other. And I know I'm crazy, but Phelps might be.

• 22:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  He's just as crazy. And, and I love him for it because, um... I mean, we'll play golf together. We'll do anything. We play cards, whatever it is. He's like that. He does not have an off switch.

• 22:21Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. In the book, you talk about the Jones disciples, like the guys that would hang around with your papa and shoot the shit, like his close friends, like his allies, like his inner circle, right? And I would assume in reading that, I'm thinking, well, you must, you know, obviously that was impactful to you as a young person, seeing him have that. You must have that yourself, right? Like a core group. Like who's giving you the honest feedback when there's a lot of yes people?

• 22:50Speaker 01

  How did you know to say something about that or to ask that? I know you do this a lot, but check this out. I just got back from Cabo, day before yesterday, like a trip. I just got back from a trip. So all my guys that I grew up with, we got a group chat, right? It's the best thing in the world, right? It's like eight of us and my brother, like all of us in this group chat. And we talk just about every day, about anything in life during the season. When my game is over, I can come back to that chat and they might be in there talking about how sorry I was in the game. They could be talking about any and everything. And the relationships in that chat, I cherish, right?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Because you always think about when you start something, right? It's kind of crazy when you start it, but then when you look back on something 12 years, 15 years, you're like, man, everything doesn't stand the test of time like that.

• 23:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  I try to take my guys on a trip every year, right? After the season. My guys, I try to take them on a trip. And the thing is, is someone may say, oh, man, that's cool for them. No, this is cool for me. This is sort of like a gift to myself because in what I do, I've been in this league for 18 years. The season, nine months long, there's no such thing as the weekends. And my homies that I grew up with, they all got families, they're back home, like they work. So my brother will go home every now and then, and they all get to spend time together. So this is the one time we get time together. So.

• 24:28Rich Roll?

  And cause they know you from way back, they're not afraid to call it like they see it.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Any and everything. And so this is the thing too, the life that I live now is a very abnormal life. So it's so cool to share this abnormal stuff with the people who, you know, I grew up with, who see this stuff and be like, hey, man, what are you, what is that? What is that?

• 24:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  So for the last, I don't know, 12 years, I'd always be like, yo, fellas, y'all ready? We going on a trip. Where y'all wanna go? Where y'all wanna go? I'd be like, man, let's, let's go out to, let's go to Greece, let's go to Spain. Guess where they wanna go every year?

• 25:06Rich Roll?

  Cabo.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  Vegas.

• 25:07Rich Roll?

  Vegas, yeah.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Every single year, Las Vegas.

• 25:11Rich Roll?

  A little imagination.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  And so a couple of my homies didn't have passports, so this year I made them get passports. And I said, we'll go to Vegas, but we going somewhere after that. And when I tell you those five days were five of the best days I didn't had in a long time. Cause you literally just laugh. Like I laughed the entire time. And there's a realness about it that I appreciate.

• 25:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's really good to hear that, cause I think, you know, what you hear, and even, especially in this town, it's filled with people who are very successful, who, you know, came from a variety of backgrounds. But it's not, it's not unusual for somebody to have kind of risen through quite a few obstacles. Cause that's sort of the engine, you know, that drives them and makes them successful. And then they become very successful, and then they have kids. And then they're pissed off because they can't figure out how to motivate their kids. Because their kids are living a life of privilege. And I know this is something you spent a lot of time thinking about and, and trying to figure out how to, you know, kind of work against.

• 26:19Rich Roll?

  Because the book is, as much as it's about mentorship and family and, and work ethic, it's about parenting too. It's about you thinking about. How can I make sure that my kids kind of understand the principles that are important to me that I think were instrumental in my success? How do I instill that in these young people who are living this insane life that is just, you know, very few people get to experience?

• 26:45Speaker 01

  It's a daily, daily battle and it's something that, I don't want to say battle. This is a good problem to have, but the people that I literally look up to and confide in and stuff like that, I'm always asking questions of how, I ask somebody with the quickness, how can I be a better dad before I can be a better basketball player? That is the one thing I'm always just asking questions. Oh, that's a cool tradition. That's a cool tradition because like we just said, those are the things that you get a chance to see if they stand the tell the time and I appreciate that with my parents.

• 27:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you took, you took your kids back to North Carolina to, you know, what used to be the filling station. I mean, maybe just, you know, tell people who your, who your grandfather was and why he's so important and why it was important to you to bring your kids back there and help them to understand, you know, who this person was.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my grandfather, his name is Nathaniel Jones, Nathaniel Frederick Jones. He was one of 11 kids and actually happened to be the sixth child, the middle child. And he had the first black owned service station in North Carolina. And I always talk about it, when you hear ownership now, I think you think of other people working, right? But for him, that meant that he, he worked every single day. And getting a chance to take my kids back was so fulfilling. And the thing is, is my kids have been back and they go to North Carolina all the time,

• 28:22Speaker 01

  but there's a certain age that your kids finally get to where you talk to them differently, right? It's not like just, hey, we're at the service station, try to remember this. You know, my kids were at the age at that point in the book where they had heard about this service station, but they would remember what they were seeing. And it's like we just talked about, he worked so hard to.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Make sure your kids have this or have that. And then what's crazy is you start to like raise them and you realize how much they need what you was trying to make better for them, if that makes sense.

• 29:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and it's hard to reverse engineer it. You don't want your kids to have to endure difficult things. And yet there are lessons in those challenges that are priceless, right? But is there a more graceful way to introduce those concepts and have them be meaningful to your kids without the kind of suffering aspect of it, right? Like, I don't know, you know? I guess you're running that experiment right now.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Always running that experiment, always open to suggestions is just totally different. And not saying everything is different in a bad way. I grew up where I had to cut the grass, right? I had to cut the grass. We have turf, you know what I mean? We have turf for the house. So always just trying to figure out different ways to make sure they just understand the work, you know? Like, we joke about it now, me and my brother, about how my mom would be on her way home from work and one of us had to wash the clothes and the other one had to fold the clothes, right? There was an anxiety about that that we were like nervous and scared about.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Like, if my dad was on his way home and we hadn't cut the grass yet, we were like, oh my God, oh my God, you know? But that sort of teaches you about procrastinating, teaches you about consequences if different things don't happen. And it's necessary.

• 30:41Rich Roll?

  What was it about your grandfather that made him such an indelible figure in your life? I mean, obviously, you know, first black-owned service station in North Carolina, like, successful. You talk about how he always had kind of a wad of cash and it was important for him to kind of be seen having that, giving it out, being of service to the community and being this, you know, he was very, it seemed like he was very aware that he was serving as this example of success for, you know, the younger people in the community at large.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  You know what's funny about that, Rich, is that... We knew he had that wad of money in his front pocket, but I don't think everybody else knew. I think we knew because that was our poppy. You know what I mean? Like if we went up and wanted something, depending on what it was, some ice cream or something, we knew that. Or because we were, we was around him a lot more than other people. But I don't think people knowingly knew that he had that wad of money. But like, we grew up as Mr. Jones grandkids, right? Like, that's what everybody knew us as. So anytime we went somewhere or we was out in the city or whatnot, because my grand, you very rarely actually seen him in regular clothes. I'm trying to picture because I got this video on my phone

• 32:00Speaker 01

  of my granddad from his 60th birthday party that we just found like a month ago. Uh, it's like a VHS tape. Wow. My dad, I'll tell you this real quick. My dad taped everything when we were kids. Every game, um, when we would have like a family function, there would be a camera sitting at the family function just like that. Wow. The whole time. So my dad, maybe like a month ago, he took a bunch of the VHS tapes and had them converted into DVDs, sent them out to Phoenix. I mean, when we finished, I'll show it to you on my phone. And so I'm watching. So the first DVD I put in is one of my high school games. And so I'm watching my high school game. That's cool.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  And so then I pop another one in and I see that it's like a, a party going on. And so I'm watching it and I'm like, man, what party is this? Because we used to have events all the time. And so then I see my grandfather walk in and I got like chills. And I'm watching it and I'm watching it. And then I actually pulled out my phone and started recording it, like whatever's happening. And my granddad comes in and then I see on the wall that said like, because everybody said surprise, right? It was my grandfather's 60th birthday, right? It was his 60th birthday and I'm trying not to get emotional talking about it. But, um, I took this video and I put it in my family group chat

• 33:28Speaker 01

  with my mom, my aunt, my wife, my brother, my two little cousins and.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  My mom called me like crying immediately. And then me and my wife have been together since I was 18.

• 33:41Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  I didn't realize my wife has never heard my grandfather's voice. My kids had never heard my grandfather's voice. Um, my mom says she hadn't heard his voice since he had died. And this is when it really like set in to me like how, how crazy it was. So everybody's giving these speeches at his 60th birthday. Mind you died when he was 61. My brother, so anytime you look at a video, an old video, what you gonna look for? Probably gonna look for you.

• 34:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Right? So I'm looking at the video and I'm looking, I'm like, dang, where am I? Where am I? I'm like, I probably brought Papa to surprise him because I always was, was with him. So I'm looking for me in the video. My brother starts giving a speech to my granddad. And during my granddad's speech, my brother says, um, and I know Chris would say this if he was here. So that now I realize I'm not there.

• 34:37Rich Roll?

  Not there.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Um, so I called my mom and I said, Mom, mom, where was I? Where was I? And she said what month it was. And she said, you was probably at an AAU tournament. Right? Playing travel basketball. And that's when it hit me. And at the time I was watching this video while I was, uh, in Arizona, where I live without my, my wife and my kids for the last four years. And, uh, that's when it hit me that majority of my life, I've been missing things. You know? I just constantly missing things and striving to be like the best player that you can be. And man, this ain't supposed to be this kind of podcast.

• 35:23Rich Roll?

  It's all right, man. I mean, that's heavy, you know, that's real. But I think it's clear that you were a very important figure in, in his life as well. And you showed up for him and you meant a great deal to him. And he certainly understood that and knew that.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  And he was just.

• 35:43Rich Roll?

  So you weren't there on that one day, but you know, birthdays, whatever, like on the daily, you were there for that guy.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, for sure. But, um, it just started me realize, started making me realize how, I mean, I wasn't there on that day, but.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  My kids have had so many things now at this point because I am a professional athlete and I'm constantly traveling. And, um, yes, I'm working to provide or whatnot, but it's still hard not being there for my kids.

• 36:18Rich Roll?

  There's a cost to greatness. If you want to be the best, like that's, you know, that is the, the truth. There are sacrifices and there is a dark underbelly. And, you know, I kind of appreciate you being honest about that because people like to talk about, here's what it takes and are you willing? And it's like, well, what's on the other side of that? And where do your other values come into play that get eroded for the sake of, of, of that pursuit? And I think it's important to really ask yourself, like, is that worth it? Or is everything else properly in balance? And if not, like, how do you correct that? That's why, like, the first question I had for you is like, you know, when these things

• 36:59Rich Roll?

  come into conflict, like the people pleasing and the, and the obligations that you have, like, you know, there's a lot going on in your life. It would be impossible for every bucket to be, you know, in absolute balance on, on, on every single day. And that's, that's gotta be hard. And it must be, I would suspect that it's, it's lonely because you can't really complain about that. Like, who are you gonna talk to? I mean, you can call LeBron and talk to him about it, but there aren't very many people that you can have that conversation with.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  It's crazy you say that because, uh, me, LeBron, Carmelo and D-Wade, right? The, the Banana Boat Crew or whatnot and the relationship that, that we had. It was sort of founded on that, right? I got all my homies that I grew up with. I got my brother who was my right-hand man. I got my family, my wife and all that. But our relationship and our closeness was built off the fact that there were certain things that we only... Could talk about to each other, you know?

• 38:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  There are certain experiences that only we could talk about to each other. I mean, when Bron was thinking about leaving Cleveland to go to Miami, he had his circle of friends that he was talking to. But when me and him talked, it was just always a different perspective.

• 38:16Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Because I play and I know what he sort of was going through and what he felt like. So you're exactly right. It's, it's hard. It's hard. And you always sort of battle with this. Am I being selfish?

• 38:28Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  That's why I was asking you too, like, what's the training like? Because, I mean, for me, even now, I'm out of season and I'm back home, right? My family's here in LA while I'm in Phoenix. So then, when the season's over, I'm right back.

• 38:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Soon as I got back, that next morning, I was taking my kids to school, you know, and trying to be a present father as much as possible. And then still training.

• 38:56Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Right?

• 38:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Still trying to be the best athlete that you can be.

• 39:01Rich Roll?

  Do you feel like whenever you're fully invested in one thing, whether it's training, practice, or showing up as a dad, that you're feeling like you're falling short? Or you should be doing the other thing that's not getting attended to? Or are you able to kind of like switch those gears and, and find a way to just be like, listen, this is where my attention is now. I'm giving everything I have to this. It's not perfect, but, you know, I'm cool with that and I've made peace with that. Or do you haunt yourself with?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  I try to switch gears pretty well. Sometimes I haunt myself. Some days are better than others. There's some times where I am somewhere with my kids and it's like, put your phone down. And then there's some things that it's like, okay, I'm trying to figure out what team I'm going to. Like, I can't at this time.

• 39:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  You know? And it's a battle, you know? And I think that one of the biggest things that I try to do is to really talk to my kids. Right? Like, really talk to my kids and be like, what y'all, what y'all think? You know what I mean? Like? Sometimes when I'm out with them, someone asks for a picture, I'll do it. Sometimes I'll be like, no, let me give. You know, sometimes I want my kids to hear. Make sure they hear me telling someone else that it's all about them. You know, because my kids are at an age where they're nobody's dummies. They understand any and everything that's going on. But I tell you, the really important person too is my wife. Right, is those conversations with her. And I mean, I'm going through a lot of stuff right now. And you think about it.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Be very honest with you. The summer, especially the fact that I'm away from my family for all those months. During the summer, my wife's trying to plan vacation. Where we going here, we doing this, or we doing that? And I literally called my wife the other day and was like, look, babe, I know we want to travel. We want to do this stuff, but understand that I want to do and experience all those things, but I gotta get to work, right? I gotta get to work. I gotta figure out where I'm gonna be. And I don't want that to hold my wife or my kids back from traveling or experiencing a vacation. Like, these are real conversations like that. And I meant it.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  You know, I want to go here and go be there and do that, but it's so hard. And she was like, okay. I got it. And that's when somebody knows you. Like, she knows that I want nothing more than to do these experiences with them. But the way that I'm programmed in. I gotta get to work.

• 41:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, you're in this, you know, unique flux situation right now. It's gonna get sorted out pretty soon, but right now it's gotta be leaving you feeling like you're just not sure which way everything is gonna.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and for me, I mean.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  I feel like I know every nuance of this league and how things work and all of this after 18 years experience. So whatever situation it is, whatever team, I just always ask them to, you know, be upfront and honest with me and communicate with me as I do with them.

• 42:16Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  You know, so.

• 42:18Rich Roll?

  Having been in the league so long, like, how is it different now at 30, you're 38, right?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Thirty eight.

• 42:25Rich Roll?

  Thirty eight versus 28. Obviously, you know, you're, you're, you're aging up and that means you gotta be paying more attention to your training, to your recovery, to your nutrition. How does like longevity play into your daily equation about how you kind of approach your craft and how has that changed or evolved? Like, you just can't get away with shit now that you used to be able to like not think twice about, right?

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Right. But I'm, I'm, JJ, JJ Reddick talked about it on his podcast. Might have been one of the first times he ever did his podcast when I was with the Clippers with JJ. But it was like, I kind of got like a case of like OCD, right? And that, I don't know. Like, if somebody say, this is the type of water that you should be drinking, right? Like, you need to drink this water, then I won't drink any other type of water. I will figure out a way, somehow, some way to make sure I have that with me every time I go somewhere. Right? So when it comes to.

• 43:35Rich Roll?

  Has it always been that way, though?

• 43:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, it was Sprite for a while, right?

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Right. Oh, yeah.

• 43:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So it hasn't always been dialed in.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Oh, no, it wasn't always dialed in. I'll tell you, when I got to the Clippers in 2011 was the first time I'd ever been with a team that had a team chef and a nutritionist. I played six years in the NBA before I ever heard of a nutritionist.

• 43:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah. John Sally talks about this all the time, man. He's, he's, I've been on the show a couple of times. Yeah. He's like, he's like, you wouldn't believe what people are eating and how there's just this insane lack of educate. I mean, I'm sure it's different now, or I hope it is, and you would know, obviously.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  No, it's still.

• 44:15Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Still. Like, John.

• 44:16Rich Roll?

  So tell me about it.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  I talked to John yesterday. So.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Never had a chef, team chef, never had a nutritionist until I got to the Clippers. I get to the Clippers, right? Going from New Orleans to LA. And the team nutritionist tells me about a leap test, right? You know what that is? I don't know. Food sensitivity test. Oh, okay. Never heard of this. She tells me that I'm gonna go give my blood and they're gonna take my blood and they're gonna test it against a hundred or something different ingredients and tell me what it, what it means. So, go get my blood, have to wait a few weeks. I get this sheet of paper back and it's got reds, yellows, and greens, right?

• 45:06Speaker 01

  So, anything that was green meant that I can eat, right? Anything that was yellow or red, I had to cut from my diet. This is what I was being told. And it had different things on there. It said, "This makes you more sleepy, uh, this makes you more tired," all of this different type of stuff. And what was crazy was at the time, like me, Blake, and DJ, all of us had done it. And like, I think one year Blake said, "Chicken." He couldn't have chicken. So, we would get on the plane and like be pushing chicken over to him, like, "You sure you don't want this? You sure?" But the very first time I ever did it, I had 27 reds and yellows. 27 reds and yellows.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  And when I came into the NBA, every pregame meal of mine, you know what it was? It was salmon, salmon, rice, and something green. I felt like that was- That sounds on the healthy side of things. Yeah, absolutely. That's what I had every, before every game. When my results came back, it said something like, I think salmon was red on there. It had like hops was red, so that was it for Corona, that was it for all these different things. I was stressed out. I was like, "What am I gonna eat?" But you think this is what you gotta do to be really good. So.

• 46:24Rich Roll?

  So you do that. Do you feel a difference? What else was off the table?

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Oh, I have to go on my email and check or whatnot, but it was a lot of stuff that was off the table.

• 46:34Rich Roll?

  That's the first time you ever thought about diet or making changes or trying to, you know, kind of.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:40Rich Roll?

  Follow directions on that.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Because when I was younger in New Orleans, I eat whatever. Didn't matter. Didn't matter. Whatever. Like, there's a difference between a chef and a cook, too. You know, so everything that I was eating back then, I mean, I drank sweet tea with every meal. I used to. Hey, what else? Krispy Kreme doughnuts. I used to have Little Debbie's oatmeal cream pies. You know, and my wife at the time, she was doing the shopping and I used to, you know, Simply Lemonade?

• 47:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Like the lemonade. Oh, I could drink one of them by myself.

• 47:13Rich Roll?

  It's just all sugar.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  None but sugar, but I didn't know. What you don't know, like, you don't know. And so then fast track, I'm playing, you know, still don't really know much. I'm doing that leap test every year and it's changing a little bit. Some of the foods would change. I would get down to, my first year in Houston, when I did the test, I think I had three reds and yellows. Right? So I guess what that mean, that my body was sort of.

• 47:42Rich Roll?

  You're getting better at it or?

• 47:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, boom, 2019 is when, um. I executive produced Game Changers.

• 47:54Rich Roll?

  How did that happen? How did that come about?

• 47:56Speaker 01

  So it came about through Ethan.

• 47:59Rich Roll?

  Ethan Brown.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Ethan Brown, right?

• 48:00Rich Roll?

  He already had a Beyond Meat, like, partnership before that?

• 48:04Speaker 01

  So this is the thing, I didn't have a partnership at the time. So Beth, my school was that worked with Beyond. Beth, we knew Beth from sports and basketball. So I was playing in Houston. Beth sent out some Beyond Meat for my chef to try. Mind you, I don't know this. I ain't really heard of it like that. So after one of the games, I come home and my chef makes Beyond Meat after a game, right? He tells us to eat it, his burgers and stuff. And I ate the food and I remember sitting there like.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Well, damn, I don't feel like heavy, right? Like, cause say what you want to, I played a long time in this league. I know what my body feel like, right? I know my body better than just about anything. So I didn't know so much about Beyond Meat at the time, right? But then we tried it again, tried it again. So at that time, Ethan had asked me about game changer. So I saw early sort of clip of game changers or whatnot. And I was looking at it and was like, oh yeah, I would love to be a part of this. Man, I like seen some of the athletes in it. And I'm one of those people, I don't know like y'all, but I'm very curious.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  I can't take somebody else's word for it. I gotta try it myself. So I went.

• 49:32Rich Roll?

  So that was it? You saw like an early cut?

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:34Rich Roll?

  And you got interested in what that might be like for yourself and just took the leap?

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 49:39Rich Roll?

  Just flick the switch?

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Yep, cause I'm one of them weird people too that where like, I'll never forget. Everybody in my house was about to watch, what was that? The like documentary that like scare you from eating meat was it? What the hell, what the hell, right? So they started watching it one day in my house. And I looked at the beginning of it and I said, oh, can't watch it, can't watch it. I walked away, I wouldn't watch it because I'm one of those people that if I see it, it's gonna make me, you know what I mean? Not necessarily eat stuff. So I did it. I went cold turkey or cold tofu.

• 50:14Rich Roll?

  So interesting. I always thought, I didn't know that story. I always thought like you were, you had gone plant-based and had experienced benefits. And as a result of that, and then kind of talking about it, that's how you found your way to the movie.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  No, so Ethan, Ethan was how I found my way to the movie. And I'm telling you. I was like, hold up, man, I'm seeing some of these athletes talk about it or whatnot. And like I said, I had had 14 years of playing games and waking up and being sore. Right, aching. And I got to the point where sometimes I wouldn't like, like play with my kids. Right, like the day before a game, if my kids wanted to be out in the yard, like throwing baseball, or running around playing, I'd be like, no, I gotta stay off my feet. I gotta stay off my feet.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  And so if not for Ethan and Beth and all them, I would have never, ever.

• 51:12Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. So, so what was the experience, like jumping in, going completely plant-based after having kind of no experience with that? Like, what did you, like, did you feel better? Did you see results?

• 51:27Speaker 01

  You wanna know, like, exactly how, how it went. So I just got back from family vacation. It was like a Sunday and I remember I was telling my chef when I, cause it's during the summer too, so of course, everybody always says it's a lot easier if you got a chef, but this is out of season. So I had a chef a few days, but here in LA, I just sort of had to figure it out. You get to know Veggie Grill really, really good. Especially when you don't know, like the foods that.

• 51:57Rich Roll?

  Right, but you could just go to Veggie Grill and just eat, you know, french fries.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 52:01Rich Roll?

  You can eat like shit there.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Exactly. But like I said, you don't know. So the amount of foods that I eat now that I never used to eat is crazy. And I, I tell people who even think about going plant-based or doing certain things is that I'm what, four years in and I'm still learning. I'm still learning. So the education aspect is huge. And if we find a way to educate kids earlier, then.

• 52:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Look at what it would look like. So for me, what happened? Oh, man. First of all, I remember sitting on the couch, like sitting there, like I felt like I was on drugs, like I was tripping, like sitting there like, oh, man, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? Right? Because you're like, what am I gonna eat?

• 52:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  But then my body, so this is what started happening. And I, I gotta believe everybody's story is different, but my nose started running. Like just, I would be chilling, sitting there chilling, and my nose would just start running, right? Because I used to also like follow and listen to a lot of stuff that Dr. Sebi would say. Right? And I used to hear him say the stuff about mucus and all this stuff. Man, I was like, what's going on? And I used to, I used to get sinus, when I was a kid, I had, what was it, five sets of tubes in my ears, like sinus infections? And I used to get sick like clockwork, like twice a year during the season. And I used to make this sound, let me see, I'm serious. I used to do that like all day, which was like just mucus.

• 53:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Man, it was like the mucus was leaving my body. Right? And I know it sounds so dramatic or whatnot, but that's, that's what I felt. Then I started going to the bathroom, obviously, a lot more regular.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  That changed like that. And then I was training. I just started back training. Maybe three, four days in, I was like training hard to get ready for the season. I called my, my trainer and I was like, I was like, Donnie, I was like, are we not going that hard right now or something? Like, I'm not like aching. He was like, no, we're, we're getting after it. I stopped having to put ice on my knees every, every single day and.

• 54:21Rich Roll?

  Inflammation down, recovery faster. No like impairment of your performance though, if anything.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  No, no. In my, in my gut, my gut is what really changed. So there would be games that I played over my career where I'd be like burping like crazy or drinking stuff during the game and just feeling bloated. You know, that changed for me. And I had a few health issues gut wise or whatnot that literally changed.

• 54:54Rich Roll?

  So four years you've been doing this. You still feel good?

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:59Rich Roll?

  And you're still learning. You're not going to Veggie Girl every day.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  No, no, but.

• 55:04Rich Roll?

  I hooked you up with Simon, right? He should be, he should be dialing you up pretty good.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Man, listen, Simon was amazing because for me at this point now, it's about the margins. Right? So thank you so much for putting me in contact with Simon who took a look at my blood work and was like, oh, look, you could definitely stand to add some iron. Right?

• 55:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  And I don't know if this is a conversation for here, but we might as well have it. You can choose whether to use it or not. But when I grew up, I thought creatine was like, almost like a steroid. Right? But it's not, correct?

• 55:45Rich Roll?

  It's not a steroid, no. I mean, it's, it's pretty effective in, in helping you build a lean muscle mass, but you also end up retaining a lot of water.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Water, right, right. I remember that's what he said. So I was trying to do like five grams or something like that. But even when I heard creatine, it was like, huh? What? No, we can't take that, you know? So it's an education aspect to a lot of this stuff that you just don't know.

• 56:12Rich Roll?

  And so what is the, like, the meals look like these days?

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Oh, I eat a lot of mushrooms. I eat a lot of mushrooms, a lot of lentils. Yep. Depends on what it is. I, I mean, I have like just egg. I think that was one of the big things was that you start finding out. So let me just tell you, we go on a road trip and you'll see like a spread of food for our team, right? For breakfast before we go to practice. And it's so funny because.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Probably most teams don't have vegan options.

• 56:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  But I've had a couple teammates that like went plant-based. Let me say that right, plant-based options. The funniest thing to me is when I come into a hotel and I see the plant-based pancakes and regular pancakes. The easiest way to make me mad is to see the plant-based pancakes sitting over here and they purple. Right? Alright, cuz a lot of people don't know.

• 57:13Rich Roll?

  Just make them the way that people like to eat them. It doesn't, it's not a huge leap to make it taste basically the same.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Listen, the only thing that is missing is egg.

• 57:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Or butter or something like that, right? Like, you cannot tell me that somebody can tell the difference between Earth Balance and regular butter.

• 57:32Rich Roll?

  It's pretty close.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Right? Really close, really close. And so, I mean, I could have guys over my house all the time and they could eat a whole meal and would have no clue that it was plant-based. But at some point, you gotta figure out a way to start making it just food. Right? Instead of every time saying, oh, this is the plant-based food.

• 57:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you don't feel like it's, it's impinging your ability to perform or to, you know, stay strong in the gym and, you know, move quickly, agility, all that kinda stuff? Do you feel like it's helping you? Like, you've been doing this for four years now. Obviously, you know, I would assume that you're feeling like this is an advantage.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I definitely feel like it's an advantage. I feel like I'm always trying to just learn a little bit more.

• 58:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  You know, just always just trying to, you know, make sure you're getting that protein intake, make sure you're getting all these different things. But it's, it's just like anything else, you plan.

• 58:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  You plan, when we go on a road trip, I plan out.

• 58:33Rich Roll?

  And how does that work with, with your teammates? Are they giving you shit or some of them on board?

• 58:38Speaker 01

  I've had a few teammates who have went completely plant-based. Uh, Jay Crowder, my first year when I was with the Suns, we were in the locker room and after the game, they all, all my teammates were sitting there with ice on their knees. And Jay was like, we called 99, he was like, yo, see, why, why you ain't never got ice on your knees like, like everybody else? I was like, I mean, I ice sometimes when I need to, but I don't need to.

• 59:03Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  Next thing you know, during All-Star break, he went plant-based.

• 59:08Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Right?

• 59:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Had a teammate of mine, Torrey Craig, who...

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Last year, he used to be talking about like how much his knees hurt and aching and all that. He hit me last summer and told me he was going plant-based. And I think he shot the best percentage he'd shot in a while this season because he wasn't, he was back dunking again and doing all these different things. So yeah, to each his own or whatnot, but I know I'm gonna do what I gotta do for me.

• 59:39Rich Roll?

  It's working for you. I mean, did you know John Sally before this? Or did you get to know him like after?

• 59:44Speaker 01

  I knew, I knew John, but I never knew like that John had been plant-based and stuff like that for a long time. And it's crazy because Lady Carmen Wilson that works with me, um, she, uh, she used to work with the Heat when John played for Miami back in the day.

• 1:00:00Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. It's wild. Yeah, I find that there's a receptivity to this in the athlete that's kind of aging up, or somebody who's dealt with a bunch of injuries and is looking for an advantage, or just realizing they're in the twilight of their career and are kind of open to new ideas, you know, anything that might, you know, extend their career a couple of years longer. And I think we're in a really interesting era right now in terms of athletic performance. I mean, Novak just won his 23rd.

• 1:00:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:34Rich Roll?

  Grand Slam, you know, Tom Brady win the Super Bowl 43. Like 10 years ago, if you said that that, something like that could happen, nobody would have believed you. So it's really cool to see older athletes like pushing the boundaries and kind of eclipsing what everybody thought was possible. And them being kind of examples for a broader audience around the importance of wellness and the fact that like what you put in your body actually does matter, right? Like who would have thought?

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  You know what? I tell people this all the time. My initial journey on this started out sports-related, right? I wanted to be the best athlete that I could be. I don't-

• 1:01:12Rich Roll?

  It wasn't purely altruistic?

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:01:15Rich Roll?

  Come on.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  It was definitely not.

• 1:01:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. That's how it is for, we're self-interested creatures, you know?

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Listen, my previous coach, Monty Williams, who is just amazing and all the sayings he, he always says, he says that we want to be a team that's consistent, right? So if we're playing against another team, he always says, you just want to constantly be like this against them, right? The whole game. Cause he says at some point, they're just not gonna be able to handle that. Right, like somebody is just at some point gonna be like, man, stop. Right, so when I talk about like feeling well and and and food and all this stuff. Cause people be like, man, what you mean, you don't, you don't, you don't want no chicken sandwich? You really ain't gonna eat no steak? You, you know, that's what people say to me.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  And so for me, I had fourteen years of experience of waking up after some of those hard fought games and like just being sluggish and aching and stuff. And so for me, it's like, if I know I can make something stop, right? Then I'm gonna do what I gotta do. You know, I mean, regardless of how hard it is or whatnot, is, it's been cool. But like I said, it started out sports related. And then I started finding out all the other health benefits. And I wanted to start sharing it with my family because I grew up in the South. Right, where everything is fried. Like I grew up eating chitlins, Fatback, sweet tea, everything.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  And still, when I go home, no one talks about this stuff when they go home. So it was stressful for me at first to go home and look at my grandmother and tell her that I wasn't gonna eat all this good food that she just cooked. Right, they looking at me like, who are you?

• 1:02:58Rich Roll?

  Right, or you're, you're rejecting them. I mean, that's, that's, you know, you're, it's, it's all tied up in love and that makes it very tricky.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Exactly, and, and the thing is, is that

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  it's the education aspect of it, which we're, we're missing. And I tried to make sure that I get into these different communities, inner cities, whatever it may be. Because we also grow up with a lot of our family with all these different diseases. Right, these different diseases. John Lewis, who we worked on a, a movie together called, They're Trying to Kill Us. Right, and it was just talking about like where.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  A lot of the education needs to be taking place because I grew up with family members with gout. Right? Everybody got high blood pressure. I don't know if you've seen the thing where I was talking to my dad, my dad. All of his brothers and sisters take blood pressure medicine. You know, and a lot of that is. This is me talking. I'm like I said, I'm still learning, but everyone always says that this different disease is hereditary and this is passed down. Well, I think part of it is, but some of it is recipes that's passed down.

• 1:04:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  All right, from, from generation to generation and unless someone's educated on it, it's just going to continue.

• 1:04:19Rich Roll?

  It's one thing to kind of adopt a certain way of eating like you have and to say, this is working for me. This is cool. And it's another thing altogether to say, you know what, like there's something really powerful here and I want to use this, you know, privilege that I have in this platform to talk about it and, and perhaps, you know, change habits, make a real social impact, you know, as a result of this voice that I have and, you know, John Lewis is my boy. Like I love that guy and, and we were all, you know, kind of involved in the edit of, of they're trying to kill us. So, you know, so yeah, very familiar with the movie and I think, you know, that's the kind of movie that's needed more than any of the other movies because the people who are suffering the most and could benefit the most from just a little bit of education and access are the ones that aren't getting it. Right?

• 1:05:04Rich Roll?

  It is the, you know, the underprivileged communities, the food deserts, these areas that are kind of entrenched in a, in a cycle of poverty and disease and the disease a result of lifestyle habits and, and you know, diet that's so unnecessary and easily rectified. And I think the fact that you lent your voice to that movie and so many other, you know, really interesting performers and entertainers and athletes, you know, et cetera, took time out to basically contribute to that as well was a really powerful thing. I wish more people had seen that movie.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a whole.

• 1:05:39Rich Roll?

  But that's a whole other podcasting story. But yeah, I mean, I think what I, what I take from that is this idea that you, you're aware of your position in life. Right? And that that comes with a certain level of responsibility. And there's an intentionality. That you have about, okay, how am I leveraging this position that I'm in? Or how am I using my voice to, you know, basically make the world a little bit of a better place? And from my not knowing you and like just kind of observing, you know, how you've done that, it seems pretty clear to me that there's a lot of thought that goes into that.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  You know what else too, and I'd be lying if I didn't say it, there's a selfish aspect that comes from it too. And I'll say this because I love like my people and the people around me, you know? So sometimes I might put something in a group chat and somebody might not like it or not. But just think about life, right? Like life and I want not only myself, but the people around me to be around me as long as possible. And if you can help them in one little way, just maybe add a little bit more longevity to their life. Or be able to wake up without a sickness or without aches and pains, you know?

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Then there's not one person I think that I probably met who has tried at least plant-based for a little while and not seen a change or not, because we be in our habits and routines for so long and for so many years. There's so many people who'll be like, no, I'm just made this way. Oh yeah, I always just sort of like break out like this or I such and such, I do this. But the one thing that we all have in common as people is what we eat, what we take in.

• 1:07:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but it's also a broader observation and conversation around habits and change. And how do we change? And a belief in our ability to like grow and evolve, right? If you're just like, well, this is who I am and this is how I do it. And this is the way it's always been, you're in kind of a regressive mind state as opposed to, I'm the person who's trying new things, who's who understands the value of, you know, putting myself in uncomfortable situations, experimenting, et cetera. That's, that's how you grow and you have a belief and a, and a lifetime of experience practicing that. But a lot of people don't.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  I need, I need to take you with me to a few people and let you tell them that.

• 1:08:13Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  I don't think they're gonna hear it the same, hear it the same from me.

• 1:08:17Rich Roll?

  I'll follow you. Where do you want to go?

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  No, that's, that's real and. There's so much I don't know, which is why, like I said, I was talking to Jess, I was talking to Jess, and I was like, Jess, we've been doing this now, I've been plant-based now for like four years, and this was last summer, and I was like, there's gotta be an expert. I was like, I'm out here just sort of winging it, right? Figuring it out on my own.

• 1:08:43Rich Roll?

  In a city of 20 million people, there's gotta be somebody who lives in LA that, you know, knows something about, something to help you.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's gotta, it's gotta be somebody, because like I said, like, it's the margins, right? Like, if somebody can be like, hey, have you tried this? Have you tried this? This may get a little bit more energy here. Oh, you tried this? And so, I was so grateful when she, uh, she sent your info, and I started watching things, and I was like, oh, this is what I need. This is what I need. And so, that sense of community and just your willingness to even put us in contact with Simon has been amazing.

• 1:09:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's cool. And for people that are listening, we're talking about Simon Hill, friend of the podcast. And you should listen to his podcast if you're not on that, because he's going deep.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  He goes real, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:40Rich Roll?

  So, beyond the, the plant-based thing, like, what are some of the other, like, longevity-enhancing, you know, career-extending sort of things that you practice now that maybe you didn't used to, like?

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Um, I'm, um, I do the cold tubs.

• 1:09:57Rich Roll?

  You do?

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  I have a cold tub at my house.

• 1:09:59Rich Roll?

  You got the plunge, are you on the Jesse plunge sauna situation?

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, Jesse is OD with it, but I got, I got an infrared sauna. So, at my house, right outside my bedroom in Phoenix, is a, is a cold plunge.

• 1:10:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Right? So, I'll get in sometimes, right when I get in the morning. Sometimes I do it right when I get up in the morning. A lot of times I do it later in the afternoon or whatnot. I get in three minutes, five minutes, I'll do the infrared sauna. I actually just got a cold plunge here at my house in LA, probably like a week and a half ago. Because my son, we finished working out the other night, and he was like, Dad, can I get in the plunge? I was like, absolutely. Absolutely.

• 1:10:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Do you do the plunge and the sauna together? Or you do those things separately?

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Depends on what day it is. Sometimes I do them together.

• 1:10:47Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:10:48Rich Roll?

  And after the plunge, do you get in the? There's that idea that like you should never do the sauna after the plunge? You want to end on the cold?

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  End on the cold.

• 1:10:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Do you do that or no?

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  So it's funny like if I'm going to bed, you know what I mean? A lot of times I do the sauna before bed. It's sort of helped me sleep a little better or whatnot. At least my aura rings.

• 1:11:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. So I was thinking, I was like, that's an aura, right?

• 1:11:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, cause that sleep stuff is so important and that's the hardest thing for me to do.

• 1:11:17Rich Roll?

  Get a good night's sleep?

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:11:19Rich Roll?

  Wow, you'd think when you're training like that, that that shouldn't be an issue.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Hardest thing for me to do is sleep and.

• 1:11:26Rich Roll?

  Cause your mind is going nuts or what is it about?

• 1:11:29Speaker 01

  A few reasons. Um, I think one of them is like I said, I do live in Phoenix by myself. So maybe it's this subconscious of like the worry of my family, you know, my wife and my kids. Um, the other is just sort of the time schedule that we're on. And I tell you, so the way it works is I'll play a game. Let's say I play a game in LA. And then the game might start at 7:30. Game gets over 10:30, 11, whatnot. And we get on the bus, drive to the airport, go to LAX. Say we got a back to back playing in Utah the next night.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Our plane might not take off from LAX depending on what's going on, the weather, or how the bags, or if a guy is late to the plane, we might not take off till midnight. Right? Say we don't get into Utah to the hotel till two, 2:30 AM. Now our game is at 7:00 PM.

• 1:12:30Rich Roll?

  They're all jacked up.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Boom. So now I just play this game. I'm wired. I'm up.

• 1:12:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you can't just shut that off and go to sleep.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  And then guess what? Usually we'll have team meeting at 11, 10 or 11 a.m. We might not have been to bed till four, four or five o'clock.

• 1:12:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  You know, so it's this complete cycle.

• 1:12:51Rich Roll?

  And that's not in isolation. That's on the heels of weeks and weeks of that.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. So I'm not complaining by no means, but sleep, like that's when you really recover.

• 1:13:02Rich Roll?

  So how do you, how, obviously the aura gives you the stages and your HRV and all that kind of stuff. But like, other than like cold plunge and sauna, what are some other sleep hygiene things that have been beneficial?

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  Man, um.

• 1:13:18Rich Roll?

  Do you do like the neural beats and the face mask and, you know, that kind of stuff?

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  No, I ain't, I ain't at that point.

• 1:13:25Rich Roll?

  Not eating too late at night?

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I try not to eat too late at night.

• 1:13:30Rich Roll?

  I'm bad about that.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. But that also too, just like for, for weight management and all that stuff too, is try not to eat too late.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's, it's.

• 1:13:42Rich Roll?

  Can you nap?

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  Yes, no, I can do that. I can definitely do that. All my friends and my family, they say I'm narcoleptic. Cause I, I will fall asleep with the quickness. As soon as I get home from practice, usually I'll sit down and, but.

• 1:13:56Rich Roll?

  That's good.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  I'm not like a go lay in the bed and I'm gonna take a nap, right? It usually just happens. I'll get home from practice and maybe I'm getting my body work, my tissue work and just fall asleep there. So I'm, I'm definitely a napper.

• 1:14:11Rich Roll?

  What does the body work look like? Like what kind of programs are you on with that? Like active release or cupping? Like what is your, what are you doing?

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  A lot of times it's active release. Um, not a lot of cupping.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  I have Anne, Shelly, they're different. Anne actually like uses her, her feet. You know what I mean? Like she sits in a chair and sort of like mashes.

• 1:14:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Or whatnot. And then she'll like get her hands in my calf muscles and feet and all that stuff. Shelly's more you're on the table and, and working on you. And then we got team people who work on us sometimes too. But that's a, that's a everyday thing just about.

• 1:14:51Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Anything else that you've like learned that's you think is like giving you an advantage? That you think other athletes or particularly like athletes who are starting to age up a little bit?

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  I lift a lot.

• 1:15:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  I lift a lot.

• 1:15:05Rich Roll?

  During the season? Like, how does that work when you are traveling so much? And it's just about game, game, game?

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Lift, lift, lift.

• 1:15:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  The older I've gotten, the more I realize I need to lift.

• 1:15:16Rich Roll?

  Day of games?

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:15:17Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Yes. Day of game, lift. So think about this, right? And someone said this to me a while ago. Our season is so long. So if you think that you're just going to lift heavy during the summer.

• 1:15:31Rich Roll?

  And then just cruise for nine months.

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  You can't do that.

• 1:15:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  You can't do that. And so for me.

• 1:15:36Rich Roll?

  But you want to be on point for the game too. You don't want to be fatigued.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, like if you do it enough over and over and over again, like not going to be fatigued.

• 1:15:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  But I lift.

• 1:15:48Rich Roll?

  It's like maintenance lifting.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. Like if we got two days between games, maybe it's a little heavier. Like depending on what my output was in that game.

• 1:15:58Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  But I'm, I'm not shooting basketball. I'm not playing a game without, without lifting.

• 1:16:05Rich Roll?

  What do you wish you knew when you were in your early years, rookie years that you know now?

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  I always say the one thing I wish I could change in my career, right? It's not a win or a loss. It was when I tore my meniscus back in 2009, 2010. Is that I ought to took my rehab more serious. I was so young, um, two of my meniscus, had surgery, did rehab, sort of whatever, but I was so young, I was like, I'm gonna be right back.

• 1:16:35Rich Roll?

  You just rushed it, rushed it too much to get back?

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  What happened too was towards the end of the season, I came off a ball screen and I knocked knees with a guy. And so, back in the old NBA, no offense to the old NBA, but everything was just ice and stem. Right? Everything. Anytime you got hurt, they would just put some stem on it and put a little ice on there and see what happens. So, I remember I knocked knees and it was the same knee I had meniscus surgery on. So, after I knocked knees, our team trainer, we had like four games left in the season. They was like, we're shutting you down for the season. He was like, don't do nothing. He was like, don't do nothing for like the next week or two or whatnot, just stay off of it. As a young kid that don't know nothing about nothing, if you tell me to stay off of it, what I'm gonna do?

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  I'm gonna stay off, I'm not gonna train, I'm not gonna do nothing. Season ended and then I had to do a Jordan commercial. I had to do a shoe commercial at the arena. And I remember showing up for the commercial and when they got ready to tell me like to do something basketball wise, I couldn't move.

• 1:17:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Like I couldn't move and I looked down at my leg and my left leg was so much smaller than my right leg. It had atrophied, right?

• 1:17:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  Cause like, I didn't know, like I was fine walking up and down steps, but I ended up having to go to DC the entire summer and rehabbing over again. And it's like, um, like the training aspect of it is what I wish I knew earlier. Right? Like the little nuances of lifting the right way and the training like that, that is what I wish I knew.

• 1:18:19Rich Roll?

  All the off-court protocols, maintenance, strength, functional strength.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  Well, it's one thing knowing it, but it's one thing doing it the right way, right? Like I could show you how to do a squat, but you might be.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Using all quads, right? Your hamstrings might be shut off. You might not be using your glutes. You might, you know what I'm saying? So like it goes back to, like I said, the details.

• 1:18:42Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. How has the league kind of changed? Or maybe it hasn't changed in terms of how it thinks about, you know, the wellness of the players long term? You know, you, you mentioned like, oh, the Clippers had a nutritionist. Like, do all the teams have that now? Are they paying more attention to that kind of stuff?

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when I played in Houston for the Rockets, we had, uh, we had a chef, right?

• 1:19:06Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  It was, uh, it was one guy who was amazing. But everybody coming in there, like no offense to him, because it was just him, right? So if you ordered something on Monday or whatnot, when you came in on Tuesday, if you wanted something different, he had probably already had what you had on Monday made, ready to give to you.

• 1:19:28Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? Which is tough on him. And it's, it's amazing to see how these teams and organizations have changed now that like in Phoenix, we got like five, six chefs, maybe more. Like there's a whole kitchen.

• 1:19:44Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  I remember when I went and seen the Hawks practice facility years ago, they got a whole training table. There's so much and it's important.

• 1:19:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  You know, I think teams started realizing like, it's so important that these guys are getting, right? Cause when you're at this level of training, not just what you're putting into your body, but the timing of it, right? So like right after practice, you know, you got a window of when you need to get these nutrients and all that stuff into your body, so.

• 1:20:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's great to hear. But also it's still on you to shoulder the responsibility for, you know, going that extra mile. And I'm thinking about like all the stories you hear about LeBron and how he, you know, devotes a not insignificant, you know, portion of his salary to taking care of his body and the people that he surrounds himself with to like, you know, really make sure that he's operating at his best. And I'm curious whether, you know, you've learned from him and kind of how he's pushed the envelope and, you know, where he's willing to go with all that kind of stuff.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:47Rich Roll?

  Whether you started doing some of those things.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  I do the same, you know what I mean? With all the. Chefs, my team, you know what I mean? Which is a pretty significant team and it is a pretty penny. You know what I mean? That you spend on it, but it's invaluable, you know?

• 1:21:05Rich Roll?

  I mean, your body is your, I mean, your, your valuation is how you're performing on the court. Right? Like, so everything stems from that. And if you're not prioritizing that and making that first, everything else kind of

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so my book

• 1:21:16Rich Roll?

  falls away, right?

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  My, my book tour that's coming up that I start in New York, like, of course

• 1:21:22Rich Roll?

  Starting right here, right now, buddy. We're doing it.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:24Rich Roll?

  This is the

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Well, when I say like, I'm home right now.

• 1:21:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I get it. I got you.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  So when I, when I go to, to New York, right? So when I travel, of course, my wife, my brother, Carmen, everyone that works with me, Jess will be there, but guess what? My basketball trainer gonna be there. I'm gonna have somebody with me lifting and I'm gonna have a masseuse, a bodywork person with me who will travel with me. So if I gotta be at a, a podcast or something at eight, we'll probably start at five.

• 1:21:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  Right? Cause all of that is necessary.

• 1:21:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you gotta work that in. You gotta plan ahead. You gotta prioritize all that kind of stuff.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:22:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's for real, man. That's legit. That's, that's what being a professional is.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Oh, 1,000%. So like, as soon as we finish, I'll get to my phone, um, probably call my wife first, but then see what's for lunch.

• 1:22:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I want to talk about leadership for a little bit. You've held leadership positions, uh, players association, all the like. And, uh, you know, this is something else that it appears you've learned quite a bit from, from your grandfather, other mentors that you've had. How do you think about like, what are the things that make for a great leader? And how do you try to kind of show up in your various responsibilities to lead in your own way?

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  I think the number one thing is communication. Communication. So in different situations, some people will be like, man, always talking, always talking. And I always say this, would you rather someone tell you how they feel about you? Or would you have to wonder how they feel and somebody be talking about you behind your back? Right? Like, that's, that's the thing. When it comes to basketball or whatnot, like if we out there on the court and we're playing.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Do I need to guess if you want the ball in a spot? All right, because if we're on teams, I think that's the big part is communicating. Leadership is also understanding when you got to delegate. And if I be perfectly honest with you, is that people don't understand this part when it comes to leadership. Is that sometimes, this is gonna sound crazy, but it's the truth. Sometimes you gotta ask people for their input, even if you really don't want it.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  If that makes sense. Not saying like, ask them, but not like, wanna hear it. Like, say you're making a decision.

• 1:23:54Rich Roll?

  Well, leadership is about consensus building and getting a group to kind of all get behind one certain idea. And you can't do that from a pure position of dictatorship.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  No, exactly. And so what I'm saying is, even if you're trying to decide between A and B, right? Or say you're trying to decide between A, B, and C. This is just being really honest. Say you already got your heart set on that you're gonna do A, right? You still need to go ask, because people feel totally different when they feel like that they've had some input on what's taking place, right? Now, when you go ask these people, they may also agree with you that it's A, you know? And a few of them might say B, a few of them might say C, and a few might say A. But if you can learn to at least collaborate,

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  let people feel like they are a part of the decision being made, that if they do feel like they are part of it, sometimes good, bad, or indifferent, they will embrace it totally different, right? And really, really go for it.

• 1:24:59Rich Roll?

  Who taught you that?

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Experience.

• 1:25:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But basketball coaches probably don't operate that way.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  No, not always, but...

• 1:25:07Rich Roll?

  It's a different kind of leadership.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  But the good coaches do.

• 1:25:11Rich Roll?

  What's the difference between a good coach and a not-so-good coach?

• 1:25:16Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's luck. And then sometimes is, I mean, if you're coaching an elite player, right? An elite player, then not saying the player isn't coachable or whatnot, but at least sometimes there should at least be, and it don't even have to be an elite player, just guys on your team, sometimes you should just ask them how they feel about a coverage.

• 1:25:39Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Right? You talk about like people being invested, right? Like say you got a company, say you start this new co, this new company over here or whatnot, and you're hiring people. Those people that you initially hired to begin that new co, if you give them more than just a salary and maybe some percentage of the company, how you think they gonna work in order to try to build that company?

• 1:26:00Rich Roll?

  Well, if they have a stake, if they have an equity stake, an ownership stake, obviously they're gonna be more invested in its success.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so, I remember when I played for the Clippers, and I pay attention to stuff, I remember when Doc Rivers got the job, he made sure that, cause everybody used to always try to say it was like me and Blake, it's me and Blake. Doc made sure that when he came there, it was me, Blake and DJ, right? And what he did was, we were out in Vegas for like training camp, and there was three vans, right? We were staying at a hotel, but practice would be at UNLV. He gave me a pair of keys, Blake a pair of keys, and DJ a pair of keys, right?

• 1:26:40Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Because before Doc got there, it was Chris and Blake, Chris and Blake.

• 1:26:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  He wanted to give DJ some ownership, right? And he gave DJ, he said, DJ, you're in charge of the defense, right? You are in charge of the defense. So that was an ownership responsibility.

• 1:26:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool. Do you think about future ownership for yourself?

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:27:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah? What would that look like for you?

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Man.

• 1:27:07Rich Roll?

  In the best case scenario?

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Cause people always talk to me about coaching, right? And I coach my AAU program, like the young kids, cause they actually listen. I don't think NBA players gonna listen too much. So, that's why I love coaching, coaching my AAU kids.

• 1:27:23Rich Roll?

  I'll own the team, I don't wanna coach these guys, they're not coachable.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, sometimes we don't listen as well. But also, it's not just that, it's because I've had such an opportunity to learn just about every nuance of what it takes in a team, right? Through CBA negotiations, through playing for this long, to having conversations with...

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 1:27:48Rich Roll?

  Well, everything that happened in the bubble, right? Like, put you like in a really challenging situation where you had to show up in a way that probably made you really had to stretch, right?

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  No, no question. And even through, like I said, some of those CBA negotiations, like I got to know Wes Eaton really well, right? Wes is the governor of the Milwaukee Bucks. Stan Kronke, right? Stan is amazing. I used to sit next to Stan in those negotiations.

• 1:28:18Rich Roll?

  How many teams does he own?

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right. Stan and his son Josh, two just genuine incredible people. You know, they, they got the hockey team, they got the Arsenal, they have the Rams, they got the Nuggets, but just genuine guys. And a lot of these people I've gotten to know, I got to know Michael Rubin. I know Ballmer from, I know Ishby and all these different governors around the league that I've gotten to know. And I'm not saying all of them, but sometimes I talk to some of them, just give them advice, right? On just how to approach us as players and treat us like human beings. You know what I'm saying? Not saying that they don't, but not just as the product going on the court.

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  Like, talk to us about the business of the game, right? Like, hey, guys, this is why we need to make the playoffs or whatnot, because this, this, and this, right? These patches that we put on our jerseys now, you see them? That's on our game jerseys, I think, now, and on our practice uniforms. How much is that company paying to be on our jersey? You know, so having these real conversations are important, and that's why I want to be part of, uh, own the team.

• 1:29:35Rich Roll?

  I can see it, man. I can see it in your future. I mean, I think you, you handled everything during the pandemic and the bubble situation with a lot of grace and dignity, and that had to have been really hard.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Man.

• 1:29:48Rich Roll?

  But you were able to get Barack on the phone. Come on, man.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  Man.

• 1:29:54Rich Roll?

  You got that guy in your contacts.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Man, he, he's been unbelievable. I tell you, um, there's been situations that happen, and when you talk about somebody who's in a thankless job or something like that, who, uh...

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  I'm trying to think when that locker room situation happened at time when I was in Houston, we was playing against the Clippers. I talked to President Obama after that and a number of times in different situations and he's just always been like, you gotta stay above the fray, right? And so when somebody like that tells you that, then-

• 1:30:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're gonna listen.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  Every time.

• 1:30:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Very valuable advice, especially, you know, in these times where everybody's got a hot take and everything that comes out of your mouth is gonna create a new cycle and there's a million podcasts and all of that. There's just a lot of noise out there, right? And there's a lot of misstatements of facts that probably get you agitated and make you feel like you gotta jump in and correct the record all the time.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Listen, let me tell you about how you just said exactly, because I'm home with my family and things like this, a lot of times where the tough thing with certain podcasts and all this stuff now where everybody's trying to get that hot take is that-

• 1:31:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because that's what the algorithm, that's how they're gonna get attention.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:31:26Rich Roll?

  You get on it and you just say what everybody already agrees with. No one cares, right?

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:31:30Rich Roll?

  So the incentives are all fucked up.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  And it's so crazy because now it makes it even hard to have real interactions with people or something like that. And because you're like, man, we talk about this, you gonna be on the podcast talking about it tomorrow, you know? And so it's crazy how things work because, like you said, I'm just not the person who's gonna run in and say, man, that's not how this happened. That's not how it happened. Because a lot of times you're actually doing something. You're doing the work.

• 1:31:58Rich Roll?

  Sure. But you also don't want to be the guy who can't fall asleep at night because you're, in your mind, you're pissed off about something you read about yourself that wasn't right and you feel neutered, you know, because you want to correct the record, but you know it's not the right thing to do. Like, that shit'll drive you crazy, right?

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny-

• 1:32:14Rich Roll?

  Like, how do you turn that off?

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  That's so crazy you say that because I keep telling my family, I'm at this point now where I'm like-

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  Um, cause people at some point start taking your kindness for weakness. Right? So, I mean, on the pivot, I said a few things here and there, but it's, it's a lot of, a lot of things.

• 1:32:32Rich Roll?

  What's gonna get clipped? Yeah, there was, there were some articles written about that, what you said on that podcast.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  Was it?

• 1:32:37Rich Roll?

  A couple. I think you talked about, uh, leaving New Orleans for the first time.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  See, I just went so long without saying anything, but just like anybody, I'm, I'm human like anybody. At a certain point, you're like, okay, man, enough is enough. All right? And for me, I've been in so many situations where people really don't have a clue of how a particular situation went down. And I just always be like, all right, all right. And so I try to be cool as much as possible and I pick and choose when I'm a.

• 1:33:15Rich Roll?

  Make your move.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll call Barack first, run it by him.

• 1:33:21Rich Roll?

  We talked about your kids, they play sports and you're super active in youth sports. You've got, you know, you've got your own AAU team. And I'm interested in kind of like your philosophy around youth sports. I mean, you're somebody who, you're a grinder, you're a hard worker. Your dad used to tape up your strong arm and, you know, make you dribble with your weak arm. Like work your weaknesses, all of that, like maybe not a taskmaster, but you weren't no stranger to like the grind. How do you think about the best way for young people to kind of engage with sports? So that they fall in love with it while also learning how to become performers? Like, I'm just thinking about, I had Malcolm Gladwell on the podcast and we had a long conversation about this.

• 1:34:04Rich Roll?

  And his argument was that we kind of have it upside down. Like the, the real focus should be on getting young people to just fall in love with sports and movement. So that they're setting themselves up for a lifetime because only point 001 of these kids are going to ever end up making a career out of it. But, you know, when they're 40, if they're still, you know, really enjoying, uh, you know, basketball, running, whatever it is, tennis, et cetera. They're gonna, you know, they're gonna be healthier and happier. So you as somebody who's put a lot of time and energy and thought and parenting into this, like, how do you see that?

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think that's the goal. The goal is to, I know for me with my kids.

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  And through our AAU program, because we know that every kid is not gonna make it to the NBA. You know, what we do have is everyone, every kid that's came through our AAU program has gotten a scholarship, has gotten a full scholarship to go to college.

• 1:34:59Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  Now, we have 12 kids.

• 1:35:02Rich Roll?

  That's a solid stat.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  Oh, man, it's unbelievable.

• 1:35:05Rich Roll?

  Every kid who's gone through your program has gotten a college scholarship?

• 1:35:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:35:08Rich Roll?

  That's impressive, man.

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  Because we, we, we have a standard, obviously, and my, my parents, my mom books every flight hotel, right, for all my AAU kids. And my dad, you know, all the coaches are guys that, for the most part, are guys that I grew up with or whatnot. But the goal is to give them an opportunity, right? Because when you play AAU sports, there's a commitment there. You got practice, you got certain weekends that you have to commit to a team. Now, with my kids, my parents only let me and my brother play two sports growing up. We played one year of three sports. I played T-ball, I played basketball, and I played football.

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  After that year, my parents said, it's too expensive and too much time. We can't get you to everything. They made us choose two. And my kids, right? My daughter, this past year, thank God for her, she did everything. I remember I got out of practice one day and my wife was like, Cam has a volleyball game today. I was like, when did she get on a volleyball team? I've never seen her with a volleyball in her hand ever in my life. So my daughter, she plays soccer, she plays basketball, she plays softball, and she played volleyball. My son just plays basketball. I hate it. He knows I hate it.

• 1:36:33Rich Roll?

  He played soccer for a little bit, didn't he?

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  He did for a little bit, but then he stopped. And now he just wants to play basketball. Now, I, I tell them this, and this is what sport has done for me. Sport has taught me everything in life. Taught me everything in life. It's taught me about sacrifice, it's taught me about hard work, it's taught me about pain, right? Like, heartache, all these different things sport has taught me. And... That's the thing with my kids is that I want them to, like you said, if they fall in love with it, like you really care about something. When I wake up in the morning and I know I'm hooping or it's a game day, there's a, there's a love about that.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  I've never woken up like, I mean, I have bad days just like anybody else. But genuinely loving something, right? Like I do, like the game of basketball, I think everybody should have that.

• 1:37:29Rich Roll?

  You can't will that in another person. That has to come from within that person themselves, right?

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  Yep. Yep.

• 1:37:37Rich Roll?

  Does your boy have that for basketball?

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  My son, you know what? He loves it and it's, it's crazy because he'll watch clips of it. Soon as he get up in the morning, he come to YouTube and he watching clips of other people playing all the time, all the time. Now, the question is, what kind of love do you have for it? Like you might just love to watch it and that's fine too. But he plays. And so as a parent, you just want to know that they're going their hardest, right? Or giving, giving their best and knowing that if they want something that they're really putting that effort in. And that's what, I don't know if you seen that quote in the book where I was talking about my coach when I was in Houston where

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  he, he told me that, he said, the hardest thing for me is gonna be playing with people who don't care as much as I do. All right. And so that is still, and always will be the struggle.

• 1:38:40Rich Roll?

  Another struggle is putting yourself in, in your son's shoes and realizing like, the chance that he could ever, you know, fulfill the big, the big shoes that, that you've, you know, created is, is basically an impossibility. Like it's gonna be, you know, so how do you raise him in a healthy way around expectations? And, you know, parent in a way where he doesn't feel that, that burden, you know, and can fall in love with basketball on his own terms?

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  You know, I make sure I have these conversations too with him. Like I.

• 1:39:16Rich Roll?

  Cause everywhere he goes, he's in your shadow. So what does that do to, you know, a young person?

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  No question. And so these are the conversations that we have.

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  Like of just being open about it, right? Because he's my namesake too, right? And so I've told him, I don't know how many times, I could care less if he plays basketball. Like, I was so happy when he played baseball, when he played soccer. But also, your name, who you are, your life, you can't change that, right? You're here, like you're in it, right? Even though it's gonna be tough, no one is gonna feel sorry for you. I am sorry. Like, no one is gonna feel sorry for you. Most of the times when you walk in any room, when someone sees you or when someone hears your name, they're gonna judge you immediately. They're gonna say that you're privileged,

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  you're this, you're that. It's gonna be up to you to not care or to change that, right? And one way that you can do that is by the hard work or do the work. Like, if I walk into somewhere and someone asks me, "Yo, you need anything?" And I'd be like, "Yeah, I need y'all to order me some food. I need a drink. I need a cocktail. I need a such and such." Somebody gonna be like, "Man, I was expecting him to be maybe like that," you know? Which you can't control what other people are gonna think about you. And I have this conversation all the time with him and my daughter. You don't get to pick and choose when your privilege suits you, right?

• 1:40:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Because when he comes to an NBA game, he gets to go back in the locker room. You get to go this, you get to go do that. Now, when people are looking at you or saying this and that about this, like, you don't really get a chance to pick and choose when the privilege suits you.

• 1:41:12Rich Roll?

  Right. You want, you get one, you get the other. Yeah. You still bring them to practice?

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Yes, all the time.

• 1:41:20Rich Roll?

  So, explain the philosophy behind that, because I think that's interesting.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, um... It's funny, Monty Williams, who's now the Detroit Pistons coach. He was my coach the past three years and is more of my family than my coach because he coached me back in New Orleans. My sixth year in the league, which was his first head coaching job. When I got to Phoenix, I asked Coach, I was like, Coach, do you ever bring Elijah to practice? Or Micah? Those are his two boys. And Elijah is one of the top players in the country now. He was top five rising sophomore in the country. And at the time, Coach was like, no, try not to, you know, bring him to practice.

• 1:42:03Speaker 01

  And Sam Presti, when I played in OKC, you couldn't bring family to the practice facility. And Sam is a great guy, but I told him, that's bullshit. We should, we're away from my family so much. But the reason why I think it's important to bring your kids to the gym to see the work is because their advantage is not their last name. Like I said, that's their disadvantage. Right? Like I said, when they walk in, someone's gonna judge them. So if my kids are always walking into school saying, yeah, yeah, my dad playing in NBA, my dad, well, what's your dad do? I don't know, he's just playing in NBA. You know?

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  Like, I want my kids to see that I'm at the gym, practice at 11, I want them to see that I'm there at 8. I want them to see what practice look like. It's a hard grind because when dad can't be at such and such, dad ain't just hanging out.

• 1:43:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. No, having that real healthy appreciation for the actual work part of it, the hard work ethic and that like reflex to move towards the challenging workout, not run away from it.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  It's like your family. You said your family helped you with your races, right?

• 1:43:17Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  So the fact that your family got a chance to see, like, if dad isn't here early in the morning when I wake up, dad is not just somewhere hanging out. You know what I mean? Like, he's, he's, he's, he's doing this because of this.

• 1:43:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you think they're getting it?

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 1:43:38Rich Roll?

  Is it working?

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  I mean, you just never know.

• 1:43:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  I mean, I'll say this about the book. There were sometimes things that happened with my parents or with my granddad or whatnot that I didn't appreciate till I was older. Right? I didn't really appreciate my parents enough until I had kids of my own.

• 1:43:55Rich Roll?

  That's the way it works.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:43:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What is it that you want people to get out of the book?

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  Oh, man. I think one of the biggest things, I want people to understand the importance and the values of like relationships, real relationships and how important they are. And I hope in the book you can get a sense of me and who I am, but also more so about my grandfather, just about who he was as a man and how when you lose somebody, even though you lose them in the flesh, right? They don't ever actually leave you. And even though it was 20 years ago that this happened, there's a lot of emotions or whatnot that I had never talked about that I experienced through writing this book.

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  But just know that you never get over it. It's never like a week, a month, or a year, and that's okay. You know, and I have pockets now where I'll be on the bus headed to a game and I'll listen to that song, "My Soul Has Been Anchored", and I'll literally be in the bus like with my head up against the window with tears in my eyes just thinking about my granddad. Then I wipe my face and go to work.

• 1:45:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's right there beneath the surface. I mean, I saw it earlier and, you know, I was texting with Jessica earlier about like, hey, you know, Chris is coming in, like, you know, what should we talk about? Like, what do people not know? Like, what would be, you know, a thread that I could pull that I'm not going to find on Google because you know him so well? And she was saying that the process of writing the book for you was just as you described it, like, it was a very emotional experience for you to revisit. Your relationship with this man and kind of marinate in that. And, and she shared one example where you were, you were trying to paint the picture of

• 1:45:52Rich Roll?

  some experience or some scene or some setting where you were with him and it would, it just became so real that you got emotional and you had to like, you know, like take a break, man. Like those emotions for you are clearly like still very much alive and just under the surface of your skin.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did the audio version of my book, right? So like

• 1:46:13Rich Roll?

  Reading it, yeah.

• 1:46:13Speaker 01

  I would get out of practice and I have two hours slotted with two guys that were in New York, like via like Zoom and put the headphones on. And I would, I did that for maybe a month, couple of months, like two hours every day I would be reading. And that's when it really, really got hard for me. And a few times throughout the process, I had to stop because I tried to make it so vivid in the book that when I'm reading it out loud, it immediately took me back to my grandmother's funeral. It immediately took me right back to my grandfather's funeral. And so a lot of that stuff, like I said, as

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  family members, you don't, you don't talk, you don't discuss some of those things. Everybody just sort of deals with it in their own way and they move on. And it was, I mean, you saw, like you said earlier, like that stuff never leaves you.

• 1:47:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. A big theme of this show is, as I was talking about earlier, like change, like how do we change? Like what is the, what is the, you know, engine of change? How do you create the desire to change and the belief in your own ability to change? And as somebody who has become very successful, how do you think of yourself as somebody who is, you know, a voice for change in the world? And, you know, you're somebody who through your entrepreneurship and your, you know, the investments that you're making in, you know, very, you know, kind of certain sectors of the economy, your production company, your, your foundation, all of this is oriented around change or creating a better world. So, you

• 1:47:53Rich Roll?

  know, how would you kind of phrase the operating philosophy behind that and how you think about like how you can, you know, use what you have to, you know, create that better world?

• 1:48:06Speaker 01

  I think one of the biggest things is community. Right? If you look at any business plan, anything that tries to grow, it's all about community, right? About sharing with others and finding that connectivity that we may be from different backgrounds. I mean, at the end of the day, that's the premise of my book. My book is about my grandfather, but there's other people who've had mentors and family members that they were connected to like that. And so the importance of community and sharing your experiences with other people and not necessarily forcing it on people. Cause even like with a plant-based lifestyle or anything, a lot of times, people don't want things forced

• 1:48:49Speaker 01

  on them, but sometimes you gotta nudge it. You know, you gotta keep at least giving them the information and it may take them a while to actually try it. And when I think about change, right, I just think about stacking days. Stacking days. My son is small, right? He's small, just like I was. And I've talked to him about the training and how hard it is and this, that, and the third. But he's, he's finally starting to see a little bit of change, right? In his game or whatever, in his ability. And all I keep telling him is just keep stacking days. Just keep stacking days. As long as you keep stacking days,

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  I promise you, I promise you, you will see the change. But my coach used to always say, everything that you want is on the other side of hard. Right? He had another, I think I said in the book, he said reps removed out. Right? Reps removed out. My biggest frustration with my son used to be, we would go outside at the house and he would shoot a shot and he'd be mad. He'd be like, dang. We're like, what you mad for? You don't get up enough reps. You know, so.

• 1:50:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, those are the only things you can control anyway.

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:50:04Rich Roll?

  Your effort and the consistency of your effort, right? There's a quote in the book that I love, which is, "Hard work is my preferred language and I try to speak it fluently." Like, that's fucking great. Yeah. You know?

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:17Rich Roll?

  And just stack it up. That's all you can do and walk away. What is your relationship to failure also? Like, missing that shot? Is it a big deal or are you just moving on? Another rep, another rep, another rep.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  I was in the gym last night, I was telling you with, with the kid, Mercy, Mercy Miller, last night, we had to end with this drill that I do where you shoot a three in this corner, and then you run to the other end of the court, shoot a three in this corner, run to this corner, come to this corner, right? So that's four shots. Then you go to this wing, five, that wing, six, this wing, seven, this wing, eight, top of the key, nine, this top, 10.

• 1:51:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  Nonstop. So sprint, sprint, sprint, 10 shots. Got to make seven out of 10 and we done with the workout for the day. I went, knocked it out, whatnot, now Mercy gotta go.

• 1:51:16Rich Roll?

  10 for 10?

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  I went eight.

• 1:51:18Rich Roll?

  Eight.

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  I went eight out of 10. Mercy's turn to go. First time, he, I think he might've got five out of 10. Went again, didn't get it. Went again, didn't get it. Went again, didn't get it. Kept getting the six out of 10, and he would have to, because you had to just make seven, seven out of 10. He'd get to the last one, missed it. He might've did this drill 10 times. 10 times. And my son was there too, and I told Chris, I said, listen, Mercy can work out with me any day, because he didn't complain, he didn't do nothing. This kid's about to be a senior in high school. He didn't complain, he just kept breathing. I kept talking to him like, don't worry about it, just keep, keep going, keep going.

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  And sure enough, after 10, 11 tries, he got it. He got it. And I, I appreciated that from him, and I told him at the end of our workout, because he was like, man, appreciate you letting me come work. I said, no, thank you, because you may get fun for me. And that's the fun part about having 12 kids in NBA, having all of these young kids coming up and training with them and working out with them, because that's the exciting part for me, is to know that when I'm done playing, I'll still be watching and be like, man.

• 1:52:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool, man, and I'm sure, you know, within the NBA, because you're, you know, more of an elder statesman now, you have all these young players who are, you know, looking up to you for that kind of guidance and for you to recognize, like, that, that brings you joy, you know, to kind of give back in that way, I think, I think it's cool.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 1:52:53Rich Roll?

  You are gonna make a good owner, man. When are they gonna, you got all this VHS footage of your whole life. Are, is there gonna be a documentary? Are you making a movie out of this book?

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  Man, we need to.

• 1:53:04Rich Roll?

  You got the production company.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  It's crazy, man. We had worked with Disney on a movie about 61.

• 1:53:10Rich Roll?

  Oh, you, you.

• 1:53:11Speaker 01

  We had done it. It got like to production.

• 1:53:14Rich Roll?

  Oh, you mean like before the book, like a whole, like a narrative scripted?

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  And then we were waiting for it to get greenlit and it did not. Crazy, right?

• 1:53:22Rich Roll?

  Welcome to Hollywood.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:53:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But with all that footage, maybe a little doc?

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  Something.

• 1:53:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Something.

• 1:53:29Rich Roll?

  Final thing, man. What is, what's the deal with the bowling?

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Bowl, you bowl?

• 1:53:35Rich Roll?

  I mean, I bowl like anybody bowls, you know? But you own a bowling team. Like, you're like bowling obsessed.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  LAXs.

• 1:53:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  Yep. So, growing up, my dad was an avid bowler. Me and my brother used to sit in, we used to sit in bowling alleys with my dad in bowling leagues, you know, full of cigarette smoke and french fries. That's what everything smelled like. And, you know, like my dad is seriously like a superhero to us. Anything my dad did, we wanted to do. Everything. So, when my dad hooed, we wanted to hoop. He was a diehard Dallas Cowboys fan. That was us. You know, everything. So, when he bowled, we went right, right along with him. I want to say when I was like a senior in high school, my parents gifted us a bowling ball for Christmas. Mine, my bowling ball was a red, white and blue.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  It looked like the ABA basketball. And my brother's was a brown ball that looked like a regular basketball. And so then, we bowled all the time in high school and college. That's where we'd go with our friends. And then, when I got to the league, I started doing a bowling tournament on ESPN.

• 1:54:45Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  It's fun. It's one of those things that, like I know I say I golf now, but bowling is something that everybody can do.

• 1:54:53Rich Roll?

  Everybody can do it, yeah.

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  You know, like my, I had a, like one of my granddad's brothers, he was 80 years old, still in the bowling league. Right?

• 1:55:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  So it's just fun and easy.

• 1:55:03Rich Roll?

  That's cool, man. Well, I gotta get you out of here. I could, I could hold you hostage all day, man. But this is super fun. I mean, you're an inspiration. I really, you know, love the way that you lead by example. And you teach through your actions and you comport yourself with, you know, so much grace and dignity and, and, you know, gratitude also, which you mentioned earlier, which I think is huge. And, you know, I'm a fan, dude.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  I'm a fan.

• 1:55:31Rich Roll?

  So, you know, best of luck with the book. It's, it was really fun to read it and learn about your life.

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  I get my pod, I'm gonna come back and interview you. I got some more questions.

• 1:55:40Rich Roll?

  All right. Anytime, man, anytime.

• 1:55:44Rich Roll?

  So, any, any parting words for the aspiring athlete out there? Somebody who's trying to tap into a little bit more mastery into their life?

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you hear all these sayings all the time where they say, you're only gonna get out of it what you put into it. But I would say fall in love with the work. Right? Like I always say about the NBA. I've had guys, I've had teammates and it's fine. Some guys be like, I don't watch basketball when I go home because I play too much. I don't know. I'd be like, listen, you think if somebody work on, work on Wall Street, when they go on vacation, they not checking the stock exchange? You know, but to each his own, right? So if you fall in love with the work aspect of it, then the success and the accolades that come with it. But you gotta fall in love with the work.

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Don't just fall in love with the, the showers of people telling you how good and great you are. Like if you fall in love with the work aspect of it, then every, everything else, I promise will fall into place.

• 1:56:53Rich Roll?

  Nice, man. Spit and fire, straight from the mouth of CP3. Thanks, buddy. That was really cool.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 1:56:59Rich Roll?

  Appreciate it, man. It is an honor to talk to you today.

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:57:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Thanks, man. Peace.

• 1:57:04Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:57:16Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting

• 1:58:01Rich Roll?

  the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated, and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, as well

• 1:58:44Rich Roll?

  as Dan Drake. Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.