Jessel Taank - ‘Real Housewives? It’s like Game of Thrones’

Jessel Taank is the first South Asian housewife and the breakout star of her debut season of The Real Housewives of New York in 2023. In this episode we speak openly about the challenges of conceiving her twin sons through IVF and the misplaced shame she felt at not being able to have children naturally. Her failures include failing to overcome Indian beauty ideals, a failure to balance motherhood with personal ambition, and a failure to understand the mechanisms of reality TV (and yes…we get INTO it). ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 02:38 Navigating Reality TV and Conflict 03:17 The Dark Turn of Real Housewives 05:31 Upbringing and Family Background 08:59 Struggles with Indian Beauty Ideals 11:06 Facing Racism and Inherited Trauma 16:50 Balancing Motherhood and Personal Ambition 24:26 Freezing Eggs and Meeting My Husband 24:39 The Struggles of Miscarriages and Procedures 24:57 The Journey to Acceptance 25:51 The Reality of Raising Twins 27:26 Balancing Motherhood and Personal Ambitions 31:10 Impact of Fertility Treatments on Intimacy 36:19 Navigating Reality TV 40:16 Coping with Social Media Criticism Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

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• 1:29Elizabeth Day?

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• 2:04Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How To Fail, the podcast that truly believes all failure is data acquisition. Before we get on to our guest, I wanted to remind you of my subscriber podcast, Failing With Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and try to give some advice on your failures too. This week, I chat to the Real Housewives of New York, Jessel Taank. Do join in by following the link in the podcast show notes or look out for my monthly callouts on Instagram. Thank you so much for listening. As a child growing up in a close knit Indian family in London, Jessel Taank was convinced Michael Jackson was her real father and that her own parents had kidnapped her from him. Although, spoiler alert, this wasn't true, Tank's belief that it might have been displays

• 2:49Elizabeth Day?

  an early fascination with popular culture. After university in England, she became a fashion publicist and brand consultant, eventually setting up her own PR firm. Fast forward to the present day, and Tank has found her own fame, not through singing or dancing, but through her casting on the reboot of The Real Housewives of New York, one of the greatest reality TV shows of all time, in my opinion, anyway. Tank was the first South Asian housewife and the breakout star of her debut season in 2023. She became instantly iconic for her dry humour, her fashion, her sandwich-obsessed husband Pavit, and for describing Tribeca as up and coming. But her storylines went

• 3:34Elizabeth Day?

  deeper too. Tank spoke openly about the challenges of conceiving her twin sons through IVF and the misplaced shame she felt at not being able to have children naturally. "As Brits," Tank has said, "we don't talk about anything, and as Asians, we don't either. I'm definitely not someone that thrives in drama or uncomfortable situations. My go-to is just to ignore it or disappear." Jessel Taank, welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  What an introduction. And I love that Michael Jackson made it in.

• 4:07Elizabeth Day?

  We started with Michael Jackson.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  As you always should.

• 4:09Elizabeth Day?

  Always.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 4:10Elizabeth Day?

  And we ended with conflict avoidance, which is so fascinating, given what you now do.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, isn't it though?

• 4:17Elizabeth Day?

  How does that work? So someone who, by your own admission, you like to disappear from conflict. How has reality TV been for you?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Oh God, it's been the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I think that, you know, for, I mean, and you're British, so I, so I know you relate to this. We avoid conflict at any cost. As an Indian, British also, like, that's an added layer of conflict that we don't really want to tap into. It's been like, you know, you, you were forced to face it. You're sort of thrown into the dragon's den, so to speak. I call it the game of thrones. There was no escape and you just had to figure it out.

• 4:57Elizabeth Day?

  We're meeting a couple of days after the part two of the reunion has aired. How are you feeling? Because for anyone who watched that season, it was a season that ended on a dark and troubling note. And I feel I just want to pay tribute to how you navigated that and what a good friend you were to Uber. But how are you feeling about it all now? Are you still talking to everyone?

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, I'm still talking to everyone, but obviously there is this very clear tension that rocked the group. You know, Real Housewives is supposed to be light funny. It's like drunk women falling backwards in bushes, like you know, as a braver historian almost. Like, it's not supposed to take the turn that it did. I think at the beginning of the season, you know, we're talking about pigeons and it's like, it, it did feel very much like on par for what Real Housewives should be. And then it did, you know, turn a corner and I felt very disappointed, to be honest. And I still feel like a little bit in limbo because it's, it's such a weird note to end on.

• 6:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Although we did seem to find resolution at the reunion, I know that there are things that have happened that people will not be able To forget necessarily.

• 6:13Elizabeth Day?

  And for anyone who doesn't watch Real Housewives of New York, first of all, what are you doing with your time? Secondly, just to bring you up to date, the season ended with one of your cast members, Bryn Whitfield, revealing that she'd been sexually assaulted and raped by someone, which was so awful. And every single one of the women stood up in support of her. And there was a conflagration because Bryn believed that she had said to Uber that that had happened to her. And Uber said that she hadn't. And so it was about everything that happened after that. But I thought you did a very good job of separating the two things because we believe women when they tell us.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 6:52Elizabeth Day?

  And at the same time, there are ways of being open and honest in friendship that we didn't necessarily see.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  No, definitely. And, you know, I feel terrible for Bryn because she obviously went through so much. And to have that be overshadowed by what it was, you know, I can imagine for her, it was very devastating. It must have taken a lot of courage for her to open up and, you know, be sort of vulnerable in that moment. And I just wish that it had played out differently.

• 7:17Elizabeth Day?

  And you obviously are originally British, so I'd love to talk to you a bit about your upbringing. So you were raised in London.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  I was raised in London, just outside of London.

• 7:27Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  A little town called Pinner in Middlesex. And, you know, my parents, I think I've spoken a little bit about this, but my parents came to England as sort of a, it was a bit of a tumultuous time for them. They were sort of forced to move to England and to start their lives. And so the household that we, or that I grew up in, it was sort of filled with, you know, this almost like struggle to kind of, you know, make it in a way. They had to start from scratch. And so my upbringing was a very happy one. I had a lot of close family, a lot of close cousins, a lot of close friends.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  But it was almost overshadowed by this kind of very sad, I would say, background.

• 8:14Elizabeth Day?

  And can I ask why they were forced to move?

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they grew up in Kenya, in Africa, and due to political uproar. A lot of Indians were told to, you know.

• 8:25Elizabeth Day?

  They were displaced?

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Yes, displaced. It was something where, because they were, you know, taking over businesses. And I think that maybe the African government felt threatened. And so a lot of the Indian community had to leave. And because they were part of the British Commonwealth, they ended up in in England.

• 8:44Elizabeth Day?

  So that's so interesting how you've described it so well there. That sense that it was a very happy upbringing, but there was this underlying sadness because your family presumably had to leave behind everything they knew.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:56Elizabeth Day?

  And start again.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:57Elizabeth Day?

  So were you aware from a young age that you had to work hard and strive to succeed because of that?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit. When you see your parents having to work so hard. My grandparents lived in a council home. You sort of like are exposed to, I wouldn't say we're working class, but middle class. But like, you know, very hardworking ethic. My parents pushed education. They really wanted me to like succeed. Just because all of those pillars would then, you know, help me strive to become what I am or what I wanted to be. So they gave me the opportunities that I definitely have today. I'm so thankful for that. But I think a lot of the Indian community, I mean, we joke about it. It's very much a stereotype, why we work so hard. I think it does come from our background and our parents and what they had to do.

• 9:46Elizabeth Day?

  Now, I'm familiar with your wonderful mother from on screen. She's made an appearance, quite a few appearances on The Real Housewives of New York. How does she feel about this turn that your career has taken?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Um, you know, I think at first they didn't really get it. They were obviously excited that I was given the opportunity. And it's such a rare, I mean, I think so many women would just, you know, kill to be in my shoes. So the fact that I was in that position was, first of all, I was so lucky. And they saw that. But I think they are nervous for me. You know, it's it's something that you can't control the narrative. You can't control sort of how you're perceived. And I think that made them very. Nervous because as Indians, we are very timid in a way and we don't really expose a lot of who we are. We're very private as a culture.

• 10:42Elizabeth Day?

  So your first failure is that as a young girl, you fail to overcome Indian beauty ideals. And you let the pressures of not living up to them almost undo you. So describe to me how you felt as a young girl. Did you feel pretty?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  Um, no. So I think, you know, being Indian, I think that a lot of Asian cultures sort of have this ideal, to be fair. There was a very specific stereotype of what beauty is in India and in Asia. Um, and that is, you know, petite, fair skinned, you know, almost like porcelain like. And I think growing up, I definitely did not fit that mould. And I felt it from a very young age. And it really did inform a lot of who I am and who I still am. Because I think when you don't fit a mould in your culture, you don't fit a certain stereotype, you feel sort of displaced.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  And I know that sounds really like a heavy term, but I really did like, I was obviously darker growing up. You see my mum, she's like, she doesn't look Indian at all. She almost looks Italian or something, you know, else. So I almost felt like I was being compared in a way like, oh, that can't be her daughter. She doesn't look like her. And I heard that from a very young age and it was very tough, I think. I think my self-confidence took a dive. I was, I was always questioning, you know, this idea of beauty or what it means to be beautiful. And in a way, it was almost why I wanted to be in the fashion industry.

• 12:19Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, that makes total sense. And also now that you're talking about it, the Michael Jackson thing makes sense as well. Like that actually breaks my heart.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Oh my God, I didn't even connect the two.

• 12:28Elizabeth Day?

  Because that's someone who also struggled with his own skin, it feels like.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  It's really funny you mention that. Yeah. I mean, he did grow up dark. I mean, he, I don't know what happened to poor Michael. Um, I mean, he claims to be a lycra, but like, yeah, I, it, it, yeah, maybe I did connect with him because of that.

• 12:46Elizabeth Day?

  But you did grow up in a time when racism, particularly in London, was still really prevalent.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:51Elizabeth Day?

  How did that play out for you?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, racism was rampant. To be honest, I didn't really feel the weight of racism. My mum, on the other hand, and her family did. Like I said, they grew up in a council estate. So, you know, I grew up with stories of my uncles telling me that they were, they had to hide in their home. They were, I think, I heard one story where there was like bottles of like gasoline being thrown into their home. Like they would light it and throw it into the letterbox. You know, they had a very, very tough upbringing. I almost internalized what my mum went through because you see like she grew up in a very tough way. And so it was, it was very, very sad for me to be a part of that, you know.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  I, I think it informed who she is as well and certainly informed her family like upbringing and, and what they had to do. My dad, on the other hand, had a little bit of a different upbringing. You know, I'm sure he did experience racism, probably not in such a violent way. But he got to travel and his family grew up with a little bit more means. And so I think that, you know, he actually was able to have an education and actually sort of went through the motions of having friends and being able to experience his childhood a little bit better.

• 14:08Elizabeth Day?

  I'm very intrigued by the idea of inherited trauma and that you carry some of your mother's and even your uncle's sadness within you.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:17Elizabeth Day?

  So what was school like for you?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  School was not bad. It was, you know, I didn't feel segregated in school. I think, to be honest, I grew up in a area of London that was quite diverse. There was a lot of Indians, there was a lot of Asians. My best friend was Korean. And she was, you know, my very best friend. We did everything together. So I grew up in a very diverse community, which I'm so grateful for. Because it really like put a lot of perspective, a lot of international perspective to how I treat people and how people, you know, hopefully treat me as well.

• 14:56Elizabeth Day?

  So with these childhood memories of not fitting in, quote unquote, to the kind of Indian ideal, how has it been going on television and being confronted with your appearance? Like, how do you feel about how you look now?

• 15:12Speaker 01

  I've worked really hard to come to terms with the angst of it all. Like I said, as a child, I had so much lack of self-confidence. I was very shy. I wouldn't really talk to people. I couldn't really look people in the eye. It's such a far departure from who I am now. But I really worked very hard to kind of come to terms with being darker is beautiful. And I think there is a lot of, you know, social, I think, chatter about that, which helped, I think. You know, one of my icons growing up was Naomi Campbell. And I think that she was someone that came on to the scene as this gorgeous supermodel that was, you know, not a light-skinned model and that embraced it so much.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  And targeting people like that for me was really helpful because I'm like, oh, you can look like that and can be perceived as beautiful. And I think that there's been a lot of work done in the Indian culture itself where, you know, we're not there yet, but there have been strides that have been taken to embrace women that are darker. And that, you know, it's almost cool now, which, Jesus Christ, it took a while. But I feel almost accepted in a way. How that translates to the show, you know, I really like talking about the fact that I didn't fit in and that I almost feel unique because I think standing out is almost cooler than blending in.

• 16:36Elizabeth Day?

  Well, objectively speaking, and sitting opposite you, I can confirm that you are so beautiful.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 16:41Elizabeth Day?

  And you deserve to know that. But one of the things that I, as much as I love Housewives, I have a slight issue with is at the reunion when you are constantly asked what work you've had or not had done. And I felt like you were slightly singled out at this last reunion about for that. And I just, how do you feel about that? Because I, I don't know, I feel uncomfortable.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  The fact that Andy asked me, I wasn't offended because, and I know he issued a statement about this. He does ask, I'm sure at every reunion, have you guys prepared?

• 17:11Elizabeth Day?

  He loves a boob job.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Loves a boob job, loves a nose job, loves a bit of, you know, filler and botox. For me, I, he's been so complimentary of, you know, me and how I dress and how I look. And so I Didn't take offence to it. I think where it went south was when Bryn chimed in and was like, well, I know what she's done to her face. And I think I was confused because I thought she was alluding to the fact that maybe I did more, like I had a nose job or, you know, a facelift, which none of that is true. So there was a little bit of confusion on my part. And then she went to say that she introduced me to someone who, you know, does injectables and that I I ran out on a bill, which also didn't happen. So I think the whole thing took a bit of a dive and then it got really awkward.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  And then I think it was like, okay, well, what did you do? Like, and and that was kind of the the stress of it all.

• 18:02Elizabeth Day?

  Right.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  But, you know, I stand by the fact that I've only done botox and villa. My mum would kill me if I did anything more.

• 18:08Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  She literally would. She'd spank me.

• 18:18Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, let's get on to your second failure, which is your failure to balance motherhood with personal ambition. I'm so, so happy that you're going to talk about this, Jessel, I really am. And when I knew you were coming on the podcast and I asked if your failures, I was hoping that you'd bring something around motherhood up. Because you won't remember this, but I watched you the first season of Real Housewives. We didn't know each other, but you spoke openly, so profoundly and movingly about IVF. And I have also been through that unsuccessfully, but I felt so seen in what you were saying. And you expressed yourself with such eloquence and sensitivity for those of us who understand it. And I DM'd you because I'm so grateful. And you got back to me. So it was very nice of you.

• 19:01Elizabeth Day?

  But that's why I'm really happy that we get a chance to talk about it in more depth.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:05Elizabeth Day?

  So tell me why you chose this failure.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  It's a big part of, I think, who I am today. I still struggle with it. Growing up, when people would ask me, and I'm sure a lot of women get asked this question, how many kids do you want? And it's such a simple question. And I would always laugh and say, oh, I don't want kids. I would love a dog. I think as women, you are expected to bear children and that is the role, right? Like, it's as soon as you get married, it's like, when are you having kids? Or, you know, it's just something that is almost like forced upon us. The truth is, I was never maternal, or I never felt maternal.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  I was always very ambitious and I always, when I think about my successes, it was, it was always surrounding my career. So when I did get married, I, I always felt like the next step in the process was to have kids. And, you know, we did delay it as much as we could. I wanted to travel and, and really experience, you know, the world as much as I could. Um, but there came a time where I knew my husband would really want to kids. And so when we started trying and it wasn't happening, I was really, you know, I was like, wow, like maybe this isn't meant to be.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  But then it took a whole other turn for me because motherhood became really, really hard. Or trying to be, you know, a mother became really stressful. And it just kind of took a dive from there, I think.

• 20:43Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  I almost became really frustrated. I became almost a shell of myself because I was then putting all this energy into trying to have kids. And I put almost my career on the back burner. And I think I was mentally checking out because I was like, okay, here we are. We're like in the thick of it. It took me three years to have kids and I was like, those three years I could have really focused on other things, you know?

• 21:11Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. I think when you go through IVF, I mean, I was very ignorant and naive when I first started doing IVF. And I did not realise that it's essentially like taking on a whole other job.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:22Elizabeth Day?

  And if you already have a job, and not only if you have a job, but if you are someone as you are, who is used to applying yourself and getting the results. It's very difficult then to be pitched into this world of uncertainty and ambiguity where you are doing all of the work. And sometimes the results just aren't fair. They're not happening for you.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Did you feel like you were failing?

• 21:44Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  So did I.

• 21:46Elizabeth Day?

  One hundred percent. It's actually a large part of the reason why I launched this podcast.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:50Elizabeth Day?

  And I think, and I don't know if you relate to this, but part of the reason I felt I was failing was the social conditioning that you're talking about. The idea that it's our biological imperative as women. But also, I felt failed by my own body. And I felt that the medical language around fertility for women is often the language of failure. That the, the, the phrases that often male clinicians use are the phrases of failure. So you have an incompetent cervix, or an inhospitable womb, or you're failing to respond to medication. And that just really worms its way inside your psyche. And I don't know if that, if you had that experience too.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much. I think, you know, it, it is very much a social taboo to like, or a cultural taboo even, to like, not be able to have kids at the blink of an eye. You know, and it took the fun, it sucked the fun out of it for me. Like, then at that point, being a mother wasn't gonna be fun, because I already went through so much. And, you know, again, like, you are put in this like little bucket of like, oh, well, you know, here you go. It's, it's something that you're gonna have to deal with. It's gonna be such a struggle for you to get pregnant. And it's all, it's a big reason why I wasn't so open and honest about what I was going through.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Because I didn't want people to look at me in that way as a failure. And in, and gossip and talk about how I wasn't able to like have kids.

• 23:22Elizabeth Day?

  Because you didn't tell your family, it was really just you and Pavit going through it, just the two of you.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  And a few friends who I chose to tell.

• 23:30Elizabeth Day?

  And can you take us back to what impact that had on your relationship at the time? That you were going through it and you weren't sure whether you could get pregnant?

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I blamed, I blamed him a lot. It wasn't his fault, but because he was the only person that was, you know, in this with me, I took a lot of frustration out on him. And I think that he handled it like a pro, like he handles most things. But he was really my punching bag through the, through the entire process. Financially, it took a toll on us. I mean, what were we like a hundred grand, maybe a hundred and fifty grand in at this point? And with no, like, Feasible light at the end of the tunnel, like that's a down payment on a house. You know, it was, it it took a, it was a very, very tough time for us in our relationship.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  I just remember one night I got the results of my third egg retrieval and it was the same, you know, song and dance, like nothing was viable. And I just remember like thinking, am I even supposed to be where I am right now? Like, is this a sign where I should be doing something completely different? Like, should I even be married? Should I just like end this right now and just be, you know, a successful entrepreneur and do it on my own? Like, those were the thoughts that were going through my head. Because you just don't, like, if something's not working and it's hard and you're like toughing, roughing it out. You're like, is this a sign that this is not my destiny?

• 24:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, I totally relate to that.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:03Elizabeth Day?

  And do you mind my asking how many rounds you had to do?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did five in the end.

• 25:08Elizabeth Day?

  You're so strong.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  How, how many did you do?

• 25:10Elizabeth Day?

  I did two. So I did, this is a whole other podcast. But I was married before and I did two rounds in that marriage. And those two rounds were unsuccessful, but also highlighted that I wanted it more than he did.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:25Elizabeth Day?

  And then I got pregnant naturally and had a miscarriage at three months. And that was devastating and ultimately the end of our marriage for various other reasons. It was kind of the catalyst.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:35Elizabeth Day?

  And then I was thirty six, being like, oh, well, now what do I do? Do I concentrate on trying to find a fulfilling relationship? Or do I try and get pregnant? And so I froze my eggs, very disappointing results, all of that, failed to respond to the drugs. And then I met my now husband on a dating app. And we got pregnant naturally, just after my forty first birthday, had another miscarriage. But then that showed us how much we wanted it. And so then I did various procedures and we ended up having another miscarriage. And then I did egg donation and then that didn't work either.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 26:13Elizabeth Day?

  So it was a lot, it was attritional and it was over a twelve year process.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 26:17Elizabeth Day?

  And I can talk about it now without crying because I am truly at peace with the fact

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:22Elizabeth Day?

  that I won't have a biological child in this lifetime. And it got to the stage for me where I did feel like, why am I pushing against this? Unforgiving obstacle so much when actually I'm so grateful for the relationship I have. And I'm surrounded by children in other ways and I'm lucky that I have a fulfilling career. And so for me, I decided to let it go.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:46Elizabeth Day?

  And that was two years ago.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  And that takes immense amount of strength. I mean, I, kudos to you because I think that to come to terms with something like that is so gut wrenching.

• 26:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 27:00Elizabeth Day?

  It was hard.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:02Elizabeth Day?

  I had an amazing psychic reading that really helped.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Oh, good.

• 27:04Elizabeth Day?

  I'll tell you about that later.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  Those psychics, they know what to do, what to say at the right time.

• 27:08Elizabeth Day?

  The good ones are great.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  The good ones are great. Wow.

• 27:11Elizabeth Day?

  So you did five rounds.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:13Elizabeth Day?

  And then you got pregnant on, on your fifth or on the sixth?

• 27:15Speaker 01

  So I did five rounds and then I did a, I'd never had a transfer before because we didn't have the viable embryos. So round five, I think I had the viable embryos at that point. I did a transfer and I begged my doctor to put two in because it wasn't because I wanted twins and I, the cute twin thing. Like, I was just like, if this doesn't work, I need a backup. I need insurance in there. So I signed a waiver. He was like, this is not great, you know, we don't recommend you do two at one time. But I signed a waiver and of course those two little suckers stuck. And I was like, oh crap, well, here we go. We're having two at one time.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  But the feeling of, you know, after like this whole debacle, the feeling of getting pregnant at that time was just like, wow. Like, I was just so grateful. I was so excited to tell everyone. And then I had them and I was like, oh crap, like they're there to stay. Like now I have to really, it sounds so, I mean, don't, don't call me out on this, but like, you know, it's like the excitement. It's like, almost like, you know, when you're, you would get engaged and then you're like, you're so excited for the wedding. And then the wedding happens and then you're like, okay, what now?

• 28:30Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  That's how.

• 28:31Elizabeth Day?

  What's the next thing to focus on?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  What's the next thing? So I was like pregnant, I was excited and we told everyone and like, there was all of this hype. And then I had the kids and I was just like, oh crap, like it was all. This moment where I was like, well, this is it. I have kids now.

• 28:46Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I also imagine that when you go through lots of fertility treatment and then you end up having the baby, is there part of you that feels like I am not allowed to complain because I wanted this so much and I put us through so much? And I think sometimes women struggle with that because obviously you are allowed to say it's really tough.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:05Elizabeth Day?

  But there's probably part of you that feels like you're letting yourself down by admitting that.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny because Pavitz, like, they are really expensive kids. Like, you better, you know, appreciate them in every which way. And I do, of course, like. But again, going back to, are you maternal? I don't think I am still, which is such a weird thing to say, but I just am not.

• 29:29Elizabeth Day?

  I love hearing you say that. That's, that's going to help so many women who are listening to this. Honestly, and I think it's probably a far more common feeling.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:38Elizabeth Day?

  Than people imagine, because what you're saying is, I don't think I'm maternal. It's not saying that you don't love your kids. Or that you're not an amazing mother, which you are.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:45Elizabeth Day?

  But so are you, what do you mean when you say you're not maternal?

• 29:49Speaker 01

  In that I, I had the ki-, I have my kids and I'm so grateful and they're amazing. But I don't want my life to revolve around the fact that I am a mother. Um, I think it's one element of, of my life and I hope that I'm doing a good job and I, you know, I wake up every day and, you know, I hope that I'm raising them in the best way I can, but I have so many other ambitions. That take priority, not priority, but like, take, you know, are the same level of priority, I would say. And it coming to terms with that was really tough because I think, again, because you're a mom, you're supposed to feel like that's kind of like the thing that you focus on. Pavit, being the person he is, has really almost taken that like role of

• 30:34Speaker 01

  being the mother and the father while I'm doing this, while I'm pursuing what I'm doing. And I'm so grateful for him because he's just, yeah, he wakes up in the morning, he gives them breakfast, he'll take them to school. I'll do work stuff. Like, it's like he really is taking on this incredible role of, you know, the main sort of like parent in a way.

• 30:54Elizabeth Day?

  Do you feel guilt?

• 30:56Speaker 01

  No, I don't.

• 30:58Elizabeth Day?

  That's so great.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  I don't because I think I give them enough, but I also don't want to shrivel up and die and not pursue what I set out to pursue.

• 31:09Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, you said this amazing thing. I just want to find the quote because it's so funny and apt. It was about how having twins, okay, the way I like to describe it, you said, is you buy tickets to a rave and you want to go to the rave, but then when you're at the rave, you just can't leave. You're constantly dancing to the music and it's very intense.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  How good is that quote?

• 31:30Elizabeth Day?

  So good.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  By the way, I love a good rave.

• 31:32Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Well, how are you find, how old are the twins now?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Um, three and a half.

• 31:36Elizabeth Day?

  And how is it? How are you doing?

• 31:38Speaker 01

  So hard. Oh, it's so hard. Like now they're like mimicking, they're like mocking me. Like they repeat what I say in my like accent and just like, oh my God, they're like little monsters. I don't have family in New York and so I can't, you know, I think a lot of people are able to give their kids to the parents for a weekend or to, you know, we don't have that structure here. So it's double as hard.

• 32:05Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I can, I can sense that.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:08Elizabeth Day?

  You're doing a great job. You and Pavit are both doing a great job.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 32:12Elizabeth Day?

  Now, for anyone who hasn't seen the, your first series, The Real Housewives of New York, you opened up, again, in a very courageous way about the knock on effect that fertility treatment had, had on how you felt about your body and your intimacy with Pavit.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:27Elizabeth Day?

  Would you mind just speaking a bit about that for anyone who hasn't seen that? Because I think it's so powerful.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, thank you for asking that. IVF is so isolating. I think that a lot of women who haven't been through it can't really understand what it means to go through, you know, months of drugs and hormones. And it just very much like sucked my sort of identity in a way. As I was going through it, you know, you feel bloated and you feel, you just don't feel like yourself. Imagine going through your period every month, for instance, and it's just like this constant, you just feel gross, right? That's how I felt for three years almost. For me,

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Trying to get pregnant, it took a, it took a different path because I was almost putting all this pressure on him and it became work. When you're trying to get pregnant, you know, it's like you have a schedule and I was like, let's go. And he, I don't think he enjoyed it either. So I think the intimacy really took a, a, a deep dive during those years of trying to get pregnant. And then when I have the kids, I also, you know, I had a Caesarian, I, I just needed to focus on me and not my marriage in a way. I know that sounds selfish, but.

• 33:45Elizabeth Day?

  No, it doesn't. It sounds wise, actually. Like you had to do that. You had to put your own oxygen mask on for, before you can help the others.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  A little bit. I really wanted to snap back and, and do all the things, but it just took a long time for me. I did have PTSD, to be honest, because I think I equated having sex to that, you know, the, the motions of trying to get pregnant. And it, it did take a bit of a, a toll on, on our relationship. He was, again, Pavitt is like, can do no wrong. He's like so patient and really didn't pressure any of it. But, you know, I, I knew that it was something I needed to step back into.

• 34:26Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. It's so interesting you say that. I, at the end of these 12 years of fertility treatment, it was only once I was out of it that I understood the impact it had had on my body and how I felt about it. And I have recently got into weight training and it's been transformational for me for that reason, because I feel I'm back in my body and I feel really strong and good about it. And that was denied me, and I'm sure you, for all of those years that you were going through it.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  Cause you can't control how you look and you're not even focused on that. Do you know what I mean? It's like, you can't focus on feeling good because you're just pumping yourself with just, and it's almost like desperation, right?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Like I felt desperate and I felt like I had to combat this thing. And you put everything sort of aside, like I said, my career, how I looked, how I felt about myself, my relationship, all of those things, took sort of a backseat.

• 35:30Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so glad you're on the other side of it, although I know that there is a third embryo on ice, a girl that you are very keen to have and that Pavitt is more cautious about.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, financially, I think it's like fortifying for him. I would love to have a third child, but you know, I, I wanna make sure that he's on the same page.

• 35:49Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of this season that you just saw was us trying to sort of like come to terms with what that looks like. And to be honest, I don't think he, he wants another kid. Like, I think for him, I'm gonna say this, like, I think a lot of the focus was on me and my trauma. I didn't talk about Pavitt and what he went through. And I think a lot of people sort of dismiss the husband in these scenarios. He went through a lot.

• 36:14Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  I mean, he was dealing with my like nonsense. He was paying for all the treatments and, you know, I know that that was like hurting him. And I'm sure it was really tough on him, but I never asked, you know, we never talked about it. Cause I was so selfish in that moment. I was like, I can't get pregnant, you know? And I'm sure that it was very hard for him.

• 36:34Elizabeth Day?

  I love how you go to bat for Pavitt and like how you do for each other, actually. I think you've got a really beautiful relationship. And I know it's come under some scrutiny, but I just see two people who really love each other and who are interdependent rather than codependent.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Oh, a thousand percent. Yeah. Thank you for saying that because it's like, I feel like I'm constantly having to justify our relationship. And I'm really done with it. Like, I'm not stepping up and, and try, and gonna, you know, justify anything that I don't feel like I need to anymore.

• 37:05Elizabeth Day?

  Preach.

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• 38:11Elizabeth Day?

  Let's get on to your final failure. It's a big one.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  I know.

• 38:14Elizabeth Day?

  Final failure is failing to understand the mechanisms of reality TV.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a big one.

• 38:19Elizabeth Day?

  So you said that you went into it naive and you didn't really have self-confidence.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really didn't. I didn't know what this was that I signed up. I really didn't.

• 38:30Elizabeth Day?

  How did you get to be on it then? What happened?

• 38:32Speaker 01

  So they built the show around a group of women. So being in the fashion industry, you know, I was kind of, I was introduced through one of my friends. And when I was being cast, there was something very much inside me that was like, oh, this is fun. It will be a fun dinnertime story, how I auditioned for The Real Housewives of New York. I never thought I would get it, but in hindsight, it goes back to my self-confidence because I didn't think I was good enough for it. I didn't think that like, why would they want me? Why would they want, you know, why would they like choose me? The answer to that question is I'm funny, I am fashionable and I'm really like a big personality. I just didn't believe in myself.

• 39:16Elizabeth Day?

  So when you say the mechanisms of reality TV and you're failing to understand them, what are the mechanisms?

• 39:22Speaker 01

  So.

• 39:23Elizabeth Day?

  No detail is too niche for me.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I know you're like chopping at the bit right now. What are the mechanisms? When you look at reality TV and let's take the Kardashians for instance, it is this whole production following your life and you just see the Kardashians on your screen and you know, the glam and da, da, da. What goes into a show is so much more than that. And it's the different, you know, dynamics of your castmates and how, what your character is because there is, there are characters on a reality TV show, even though you're not privy to it. I think everyone plays a role, right?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  I didn't know like that, that, that was the case. I thought that I was going to be your token Indian girl. I'm sweet and funny. I'm in fashion and everyone loves me because I've never really had conflict like the way I've had on the show in my life. I think in real life, you're able to, if you have conflict with someone, you're able to talk it through and it's not, you know, aired on national television. You don't have all these people commenting on, um, you know, your, your moves per se, but I was just so naive about the whole thing.

• 40:40Elizabeth Day?

  So when you have conflict on the show, like just plucking one from the ether, um, that you were 20 minutes late for Psy when you were meeting for breakfast that time or lunch.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  She'd kill me for that, yeah.

• 40:56Elizabeth Day?

  What happens? Because as you say, in real life, you might air it then and there or you wouldn't mention it and you just like go about your business. But do production get involved and do they retain some information but feed you some other information and then encourage you to talk about it on screen?

• 41:14Speaker 01

  So here's the biggest mistake I made. I treated it like a show.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  In reality, you don't treat it like that. You treat it as if, if I was, in real life, if I was gonna be twenty minutes late, I would text my friend and say, babe, I'm so sorry, I'm running twenty minutes late. Go ahead and order, you know, I'll be there as soon as I can. I didn't text her. I texted production.

• 41:41Elizabeth Day?

  That's so interesting.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  I'm twenty minutes late. And I don't know if that was communicated to her. Do you know what I mean? So that was the biggest mistake I made.

• 41:52Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  And across the board, like, I should address things in real time with the person and not the production of it all.

• 42:03Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  And it was like an aha moment for me.

• 42:08Elizabeth Day?

  And so then what happens? So you filmed a season and then I'm imagining that you're watching it for the first time and you're seeing other women in scenes that you weren't part of, potentially saying mean things about you.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:21Elizabeth Day?

  Or in confessionals saying mean things about you, or things that are willful misunderstandings. How does that feel?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  It's so tough. Like, imagine, it doesn't happen in real life. Like, if someone's talking, you know, shit about you behind your back, the likelihood of you ever finding out is quite, you know, it's like low. But then to have to watch that on TV, but not only you're watching it, like, everyone's watching it. It is really, you have to have thick skin. I was just like gobsmacked the first, like, season. I was just like, whoa, this is crazy. And then you've got the whole social mechanism of it all. Like, you've got, you know, the reality show, and then you've got the social of it all. And that's a whole other layer.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Because, you know, people, I think with reality TV, people feel so comfortable commenting about you. And it's not like you're playing a role on a movie. You are you. So they feel like they can go to your Instagram and comment on everything about you. It was so crazy.

• 43:27Elizabeth Day?

  I could not cope. I just want to salute you for being able to.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Barely surviving.

• 43:34Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think it's made you stronger?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, God, yeah. You have to really train your mind and your brain emotionally and mentally to.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  To kind of go to a place where you keep telling yourself, these people don't know you. They really don't, they they know what.

• 43:53Elizabeth Day?

  Social media people or your castmates?

• 43:55Speaker 01

  The social media.

• 43:56Elizabeth Day?

  Social media, yeah, okay, yeah.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Like, in order to, imagine going to someone's Instagram, finding them, going to someone's Instagram and saying like mean stuff on their page, knowing that they're gonna see that, like, and you don't know that person, like, it just takes a certain character to do that. And I have to keep telling myself, like, they don't know you. So what they're seeing and how they're translating that and how that's like coming out is not real. So you sort of create this almost like fictional bubble that you put yourself in.

• 44:29Elizabeth Day?

  I had a conversation with name drop Jay Shetty.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:34Elizabeth Day?

  And he had such great advice for dealing with social media criticism. He said, it's like someone coming to your street and standing outside your house who doesn't know you.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:46Elizabeth Day?

  Just shouting insults through the window. And you've got to decide whether that person is welcome in your house. And ultimately, they're not, because it's your house. Like, you keep your house how you want to keep your house. And that is your Instagram page or your Twitter account, X account, or your TikTok account. And I found that very helpful to put it in that context.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  It's a great analogy. It really is. It it really takes a person to have thick skin to be able to tolerate. Yeah, I've been called a terrible mother. I've been called an absolutely hideous wife, an awful daughter. I was told that, you know, I'm representing to the Indian community and like, why the hell would they choose this girl to like be that face? And, you know, it's just like, it makes you question everything you are to your core.

• 45:31Elizabeth Day?

  Do you have strategies now to cope with that?

• 45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you've got to protect the peace.

• 45:36Elizabeth Day?

  Definitely. What do you think filming The Real Housewives has taught you about friendship?

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Oh, that's such a loaded question.

• 45:44Elizabeth Day?

  I know.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  It's really interesting because I think that

• 45:53Speaker 01

  almost my friendships throughout my life, I've really worked hard to nurture them. My friends are like my family and I've really taken it upon myself to make sure that they know that. And I work really hard at being a good friend. I think the friendships on the show, it's so different because there's almost like an agenda behind those friendships, a strategy maybe. It takes like what I know as friendship and sort of like adds a whole other meaning to it. By the way, I didn't go into this with a strategy.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Like, I think to be very clear, I really took it upon myself to to want to get to know every single one of these women in the most innocent and positive way possible. I just don't know that that was the case for others.

• 46:48Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, there's a transactional element.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Very much.

• 46:51Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. So would you consider any of them real friends?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Yes, I do. And I think that.

• 46:58Elizabeth Day?

  All of them?

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Um, no.

• 47:01Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, who would you consider a real friend?

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Not all of them. Um, you know, I do think that you see who, you know, you connect with. I have to say Jenna is someone that on the show and off the, you know, on screen and off screen, she is who she really is. It doesn't feel transactional with her. I feel like, you know, we can joke about things and I can tell her things and she won't get offended. Or if she is offended, she would tell tell me and we'll we'll actually have an adult conversation about it. You know, there is, it, there are so many layers. But on the flip side, I also feel so close to these women because we're going through something that like you really don't understand unless you're in it. I had dinner with Si last night and it just like she feels like a sister to me.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  And that's so weird to say because, you know, we had a very rocky, tumultuous start. But she's someone that I feel so close to because we've been through something in such a short amount of time together.

• 47:58Elizabeth Day?

  Are you still friends with Uber?

• 47:59Speaker 01

  I am, yeah.

• 48:00Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, thank God.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, of course.

• 48:02Elizabeth Day?

  You didn't mention that.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no. I mean, I was getting to her about she see her tomorrow. Again, she's someone that from the get go, I felt like culturally, we really connected because obviously she's, she comes from Africa, she's Muslim, she really understands almost the cultural restraint that I bring with me. She's someone that's very wise and that really has a very pure, beautiful soul.

• 48:29Elizabeth Day?

  Your friendship with Uber was one of my favorite things of this season because it felt so real. And so much of its strength seemed to happen off camera, which meant that I, as a viewer, could really trust it.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really hope so. And, you know, I go back to that night a lot. And I always tell her, I was like, you know, I think you say, I don't know if they showed it, but I was sort of like hovering in a way outside her door. She hadn't eaten. I want to see if she wants to eat. But I just don't think I could have slapped that night without telling her what I knew. And something deep within me knew that she didn't know. Like, I think that she knew that what Bryn was saying, accusing her of, like, that wasn't the case. And I followed my gut in that moment and I am so glad I did.

• 49:19Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, this has been such a joy, Jessel.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Oh, you as well.

• 49:23Elizabeth Day?

  Honestly.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  I, I know in the first two or three seconds of meeting someone, if I'm gonna like them. And I know that sounds really like judgy.

• 49:31Elizabeth Day?

  No, it sounds instinctive.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  It's very like I go off of vibes and energy and it gives Burning Man, I know, but like, I am a vibe person. And I just met you and I was just like, she's my girl.

• 49:43Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, thank you so much for trusting me and thank you for always showing up as your authentic, real self because

• 49:49Speaker 01

  It's such an honor to be.

• 49:49Elizabeth Day?

  I love it and we love it, so never change.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Thank you. And honestly, it's an honor to be sitting here opposite you.

• 49:55Elizabeth Day?

  That means so much to me. Thank you. And you're not going yet because you're staying for Failing with Friends, where you get to answer listener questions. So now the pressure's off you, Jessel.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Okay, hot seat.

• 50:05Elizabeth Day?

  We heartily recommend you follow us to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Please do tell all of your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.