A Deal With the Devil? Murdoch and New Labour (Part 2)

What was the nature of Rupert Murdoch's relationship with Margaret Thatcher? What led to News Corp's near-collapse in the late 1980s, and how did the company recover? Why and how did Tony Blair's "New Labour" court Rupert Murdoch's support in the 1990s? Alastair is joined by two-time Rupert Murdoch biographer, Michael Wolff, to discuss all this and more. Unlock the full five-part mini-series The Rise and Fall of Rupert Murdoch – only with TRIP+. Members enjoy bonus episodes, ad-free listening, and early access to new shows. Start your 7-day free trial today at ⁠therestispolitics.com⁠ Written & Produced by: Nicole Maslen Video Editor: Josh Smith Social Producer: Celine Charles Filmed by: Charlie Rodwell Senior Producer: Callum Hill Artwork: Alistair Dixon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Michael Wolff?

  He's on the cover of Time Magazine as King Kong storming the Empire State Building. That is Rupert Murdoch.

• 0:07Alastair Campbell?

  A man with a pretty insatiable need for competition, for power, for money, for influence.

• 0:14Michael Wolff?

  He's a hero in New York, and he's the villain in New York.

• 0:17Alastair Campbell?

  If you can get the son, then that was going to be politically helpful.

• 0:20Michael Wolff?

  He is not really a Thatcherite at this point, and he becomes a Thatcherite because Thatcher is there, but it's also good copy.

• 0:28Alastair Campbell?

  She's using him and he's using her. Rupert is a hard bastard, and he only respects you if you're a hard bastard too. You can do deals with Murdoch without saying that a deal is being done. And I kind of think that's where we were.

• 0:40Michael Wolff?

  The man who has existed in opposition to the establishment is creating a new system.

• 0:47Alastair Campbell?

  Murdoch is a man of method, a cold-eyed manipulator. Everyone thinks they can be the one to get him to behave, to stick to doing what he said he would. It will never work.

• 1:05Alastair Campbell?

  Hi there, it's Alastair. Part two of our series on one of the most powerful men in recent memory, Rupert Murdoch, now continues. This week, we're looking at his involvement with British politics in the main at the end of the 20th century. First with Margaret Thatcher, and then, yes, my own interactions with him and Tony Blair, and the way he chose to support us. Here's a clip from that episode. To hear the full thing and get the whole of the mini-series and the benefits of a trip plus membership, sign up at therestispolitics.com. And meanwhile, back in my country, we have the arrival of Margaret Thatcher. My view about this thing about Murdoch's power, and of course, I think Murdoch loves the fact that this line gets run.

• 1:48Alastair Campbell?

  Murdoch has always backed the winning side in UK general elections since he first started in our media. I think he backed Margaret Thatcher out of ideology, whereas when we get on to our time later, I think he backed us because he knew that we were going to win. But Thatcher's role was important. Larry Lamb, who was one of his first editors, late and knighted by Thatcher for services to pro-Thatcher propaganda. He was the guy who relentlessly slammed this thing about the winter of discontent. The label for the time, the end of Labour's term in office before Thatcher. And also, she realised, I think, straight away that having this tabloid media support and becoming a bit like the New York Post had become for Koch.

• 2:32Alastair Campbell?

  If you can get the sun for her in the same way, which my god she did, then that was going to be politically helpful.

• 2:38Michael Wolff?

  Yeah, I've always had the feeling that Murdoch's politics are being shaped at this point. I mean, he is not really a Thatcherite at this point. And he becomes a Thatcherite because Thatcher is there, because Thatcher is articulating what he may sense, what he may feel. But he hasn't gotten to that point yet. And then she comes along and I think he says, you know, this is, I think he says, thinks two things. Well, this makes sense to him politically, but it's also good copy.

• 3:15Alastair Campbell?

  You said in the first episode that the whole thing about his political profile was driven by money, his business interests. And his understanding that you needed politics at certain stages. And of course, that becomes absolutely the case when it gets on to trying to buy the Times and the Sunday Times. The Times, I mean, today it doesn't have the same reputation, not least thanks to Murdoch, I would argue. But generally seen as the paper of record, the paper of the establishment and so forth. And the Sunday Times then being edited by this, I think, great journalist, Harry Evans, who'd won all sorts of awards, run amazing campaigns. And Murdoch already has the beginnings of the reputation that he now has. In terms of interfere editorial interference and using newspapers for

• 3:59Alastair Campbell?

  commercial purposes, et cetera. But he has by now this relationship with Margaret Thatcher. And the one thing that could stop him, he thinks, other than the other bidders, getting the Times and the Sunday Times is a referral to the Monopolies and Murders Commission. So his goal is to get the papers without that, and he's got a very, very important ally.

• 4:17Michael Wolff?

  I mean, there's an interesting thing to that, because you might logically ask, here's a guy who has been successful. I mean, I mean, we know him. We know his main interest is success, his main interest is in money, where he has proved himself is in the tabloid business. So why would he want the Times? Why would he want this this paper that is very on the opposite of a tabloid? And I'm still not sure, because even to the extent you say, well, because he's he wants, he wants influence, but but he believes his influence is in comes from success,

• 4:58Michael Wolff?

  from mass market. But here he is. So why does he want this? Why does he want a, why does he want prestige?

• 5:07Alastair Campbell?

  Well, you said you said in the first first episode that you want a sense of global domination. If you've got a very successful, well-read tabloid that is speaking quotes to the working man and woman, and you've got a broadsheet that is speaking to the, for want of a better word, the chattering classes, the rest of the media, the politicians, the establishment, you've got a very, very powerful megaphone. And I agree with you. I don't think he was a full-on Reaganite Thatcherite conservative at this stage. But I think he became it because of this melding, as you say, of his business and political interests.

• 5:44Michael Wolff?

  No, I think it's true, but I think that there's other some other divided thing that's that that goes on here. His character is much more Times-like than it is Sun-like. He is not a Sun reader. Personally.

• 6:02Alastair Campbell?

  No interest in sport.

• 6:04Michael Wolff?

  None.

• 6:04Alastair Campbell?

  No interest in pop culture.

• 6:06Michael Wolff?

  None, you know.

• 6:07Alastair Campbell?

  Loves gossip, though.

• 6:08Michael Wolff?

  Yeah, he loves gossip, but he doesn't, he's not interested in that kind of gossip. He's interested in insider kind of business, political. So he, he is a Times reader, not a Sun reader. So I think that's part of it.

• 6:23Alastair Campbell?

  But hold on, is he maybe resenting, so this is the period with the News of the World and the Sun, where he became known private icon, this phrase, the dirty digger, which he doesn't particularly like. Is this the place where he's kind of doesn't quite like the image he's got? And the Times isn't just about power, it's also about, because I've always got the sense he doesn't really care about that.

• 6:42Michael Wolff?

  I, you know, I, I think that there's another thing going on about the establishment. You know, he's obsessed with this idea of the establishment.

• 6:50Alastair Campbell?

  Wanting to be part of it or wanting to bring it down?

• 6:52Michael Wolff?

  Well, I think, I think that's, that's it. He doesn't want to be part of it. He wants to reject it. But I've, I've always felt he wants to reject it because he thinks that, that, that the establishment is inauthentic because he's the establishment, because he is the real thing. And, and there is, I, I think it just gets mixed up in his, in his head, who he wants to be. And it's always this, this kind of going back and forth between respectability and, and rebelling from respectability.

• 7:26Alastair Campbell?

  So he gets the paper, you get, the Nortles and Mergers Commission does not have this bid referred. He gets the papers, the Times and the Sunday Times.

• 7:34Michael Wolff?

  And just about background, you know, it's owned by the Thompson, the Thompson family, a Canadian family, who has been put through the wringer by the Times and by the unions.

• 7:44Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, and he, and that, that becomes significant later. And also, I mean, Harry Evans, we're going to talk about Harry Evans now, who was the editor of the Sunday Times, the Liddomide investigation that people still talk about, in a real kind of. Bit of a legend in British journalism, then the editor of the Sunday Times. And one of the things that Murdoch wants to do, or seems to want to do, is to get him to be editor of the Times, probably partly because he's a good journalist, but I think more because he wants to avoid Harry Evans becoming a force of opposition during the takeover process. So he gets this, he takes over.

• 8:18Michael Wolff?

  You knew Harry.

• 8:19Alastair Campbell?

  Very well, yeah.

• 8:20Michael Wolff?

  And what's your?

• 8:21Alastair Campbell?

  I like Harry a lot. I thought he was a great journalist. I genuinely thought he was one of the last great journalists. I think he was probably never going to be successful under Rupert Murdoch, because I think Harry was somebody who actually wanted to believe. There's a great phrase, I can't remember again, whether it's your book or somebody else's, where somebody talked about the thing with Murdoch is this this thing where you're aching to believe, you you're aching to believe that he's this time he's going to keep to his promises, this time he won't interfere. And I think Harry was aching to believe, but very quickly established that probably Murdoch didn't want him, had never really wanted him, and pushed him out.

• 8:57Michael Wolff?

  I always think that Harry kind of another one of those people who wanted to be like Rupert Murdoch, who wanted to, who saw himself as well as a journalist, a

• 9:10Alastair Campbell?

  Mogul.

• 9:11Michael Wolff?

  A manager, a mogul, a mocker.

• 9:13Alastair Campbell?

  We're going to need a glossary at the end of this.

• 9:15Michael Wolff?

  And and so he sort of thought, well, Rupert Murdoch, you know, we're we're we're not that far apart. We could, I I can get along here. And Harry, who would also come to the US and

• 9:28Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Michael Wolff?

  and and achieve, achieve, you know, significant position.

• 9:34Alastair Campbell?

  As did Tina Brown, his wife.

• 9:35Michael Wolff?

  He became a CEO. And then and then his wife, Tina Brown, who also may may cut a figure in in New York. And I too, I liked, I liked Harry in New York and used to see him on occasion and would, and and he would then often say the same thing to me. He would, he would, we would exchange pleasantries. And he was a fan of my Murdoch book, and I was a fan of his Murdoch book. And then Harry would say, but my wife really hates you.

• 10:08Alastair Campbell?

  That's probably because you said in your book.

• 10:10Michael Wolff?

  Ah, yes.

• 10:10Alastair Campbell?

  That she vied with Murdoch for cynical amorality. I thought that was way over the top, I've got to say. Listen, let me, one of the, um, this is a great observation. Ranald McDonald, who was the publisher of the Melbourne Age, who was also a cousin of Rupert Murdoch. And he says, everyone thinks they can be the one to get him to behave, to stick to doing what he said he would. I played with him as a boy. I know him. It will never work.

• 10:36Michael Wolff?

  Just to add, I, all of his wives thought that.

• 10:41Alastair Campbell?

  All five of them. So he makes all these promises, he makes all these commitments, they're, they're, they're underpinned by law.

• 10:48Michael Wolff?

  Let's be very clear, he goes into the Times, the whole Times deal is dependent on him saying that he will not interfere editorially. Now, let's just, in hindsight.

• 11:03Alastair Campbell?

  Day one.

• 11:04Michael Wolff?

  Let's, let's think about this, him not interfering editorially is like, do we have to do the scorpion and the, and the frog at this point?

• 11:14Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, Harry's sadly now dead, but he used to say that he interfered on day one and he did it. He tried to change something very minor in an editorial. And he said, it was basically, instead of saying that, couldn't we say it this way? And it was just a way of saying, if you really think I'm not going to interfere, forget it. And at the end of, of, of Harry's book, Good Times, Bad Times, he lists all the promises that Murdoch made on editorial freedom. Nobody but the editor can hire and fire, nobody at the editor can instruct journalists. He has, the editor has to have a set budget to work within. And he then quotes something that Murdoch said to one of Harry's senior executives. I give instructions to my editors all around the world, so why shouldn't I in London? And the guy replies, because you gave legal undertakings. And he says, they're not worth the paper they're written on.

• 11:59Alastair Campbell?

  So that's the jujitsu of the still, and he's done it to Thatcher with her help.

• 12:03Michael Wolff?

  It's not even juju, at least jujitsu says, seems to think, think, well, you don't see it coming, but you see it coming here. Even more so. So he does this, he violates every aspect of this. The, this agreement is thrown out immediately, ignored, it's reduced. It has no standing or bearing immediately. Thirty years later.

• 12:26Michael Wolff?

  He will make the same agreement with the Wall Street Journal and they accept it.

• 12:31Alastair Campbell?

  Totally. They usher him in with the red carpet. There's all, Harry had some great observations. The other thing, by the way, that the Thatcher thing does is it signals to her cabinet and to the rest of the political establishment, this guy has to be treated differently. And of course, that's something that he'll exploit many times. Harry said this, Maxwell, who we talked about in episode one, Maxwell was the Metax. We're back to the same stiletto. Murdoch is the stiletto, a man of method, a cold eyed manipulator, issues promises as prudently, he says, as the Weimar Republic issued Marx. But he's now there. He's now there. He essentially is breaking the law, by the way, in hiring and firing, interfering

• 13:15Alastair Campbell?

  editorially, but he's kind of, he's now got impunity. But you, you kind of-

• 13:20Michael Wolff?

  But why does he have impunity? I mean, that, that's-

• 13:23Alastair Campbell?

  Because Thatcher has brought the line that these papers are essential to her political success.

• 13:29Michael Wolff?

  So she's currying favor with Murdoch. She basically-

• 13:33Alastair Campbell?

  She's using him and he's using her.

• 13:35Michael Wolff?

  Okay, that, that, but which is the perfect, that, that's the perfect balance that you want. I mean, if you're Murdoch or, and if you're Thatcher.

• 13:44Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, they, and they would both say to themselves, we're not doing anything wrong. We have this, we'll come on to this when we talk about my time with Tony Blair. We're not doing anything wrong because she would say, I'm not, I'm not giving him anything on policy because actually I think it's probably quite a good idea if he owns the Times because he's going to be on my side. She's thinking that's politics. He's thinking, I give her the support.

• 14:07Michael Wolff?

  So everybody is working the system.

• 14:09Alastair Campbell?

  They're creating and working the system.

• 14:11Michael Wolff?

  Creating the system.

• 14:12Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:13Michael Wolff?

  So he's creating the, the man who has existed as in, in opposition to the establishment is creating a new system, therefore a new establishment.

• 14:25Alastair Campbell?

  And they're all convincing themselves that they are insurgents and they're agents of change. And in many ways they are. Okay. Thatcher was an agent of change. You can hate it, but she was. To hear the full episode, sign up at therestispolitics.com.