447: Tommy Mello—The Secret Sauce is the Grind

Tommy Mello founded A1 Garage Door Service—a 100 million-plus-dollar business. Tommy shares how he went from reselling Bowflex, cleaning pools, and painting garage doors to building one of the largest home service companies in the country. He talks about the hustle, the screw-ups, and the systems that helped him scale, including his no-nonsense approach to hiring and promoting based on performance, not resumes. It's a real conversation about work ethic, taking ownership, and why a broken garage door—and a strong dose of meritocracy—can open a lot more than just your garage.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  Hey guys, it's me Mike Crowe. This is The Way I Heard It. This episode is called "The secret sauce is the grind." A direct quote from today's guest, the one and only Tommy Mello. I think you'd agree, he is singular.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  Yes, and he makes me want to sing. "They call him Tommy Mello."

• 0:23Mike Rowe?

  Oh god, really dude? Now I got copyright problems.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Do you, oh geez, you know what?

• 0:27Mike Rowe?

  Now, you know what?

• 0:28Speaker 01

  Let's do it over.

• 0:29Mike Rowe?

  I think the Mellow Yellow guys are not litigious. I hope so. I doubt that Tommy is litigious either, because I don't think he has time to be. The guy is just a force of nature.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  First of all, can I say, he's just jacked. I mean, that dude is jacked.

• 0:45Mike Rowe?

  He's jacked, yeah. He works out a lot. He does everything that he enjoys a lot.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he enjoys a lot of stuff, it seems.

• 0:52Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. I honestly don't know when he sleeps. I met this guy at an energy conference, of all places. We were both there, just because we were invited and we were curious. And as a rule, I mean, I like money. I'd like more of it. I think it's awesome that people make money, but, you know, just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean I'm dying to pick your brain. Tommy is worth a billion dollars.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, he is.

• 1:17Mike Rowe?

  He's like 42 years old. He has the body, gentlemen, that you wish you had. And ladies, you may wish you had it as well. But, the reason I really wanted to talk to him is that he earned every penny. This kid grew up in Michigan, in Sterling Heights. He started his first business when he was like 13. He's a hustler. He owns a company today called A1 Garage Door Service. Started it with $50,000 in debt, did something like $300 million last year. This guy paints garage doors, and installs them now.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, all over the country.

• 1:58Mike Rowe?

  Nineteen states.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00Mike Rowe?

  Seven hundred employees. People love to work for him. I was curious to learn why. He has a management style that is unique. He's an example, and I make this point too in our conversation, but I'll repeat it here in advance because I really think it's important. He's all about closing the skills gap. He's all about learning a trade. He's all about the blue collar world, but he's also all about entrepreneurship and ambition and curiosity and constantly learning. He's just insatiably curious.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Not only constantly learning, but also constantly teaching. I mean, one of the great things about him is that he invites other garage door company people to come and talk to him, to tell them what he's doing and to talk about ideas. He shares all his ideas with all of his competitors, which is really unusual.

• 2:52Mike Rowe?

  There's a lot of counterintuitive stuff that he does.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:55Mike Rowe?

  And for all those reasons, I would have talked to him even if he hadn't built a personal portfolio north of a billion dollars at forty-two. Or is he forty-one?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  It was forty-two or forty-four. I don't know. It's in the episode.

• 3:10Mike Rowe?

  Whatever. There are a lot of annoying things about this guy, like his success, his physique, and his unflagging optimism. But you can't help but like him and you can't help but admire what he's built. And I think if you listen to what he has to say, you're liable to learn something, including the secret sauce, which I may have mentioned is the grind. Tommy Mello, after this.

• 3:38Mike Rowe?

  So as some of you may have heard, I went to Congress sixteen years ago to testify before a House Subcommittee. And then again, a year later, to testify before a Senate Subcommittee about the need to reinvigorate the skilled trades with some kind of national effort that would make a more persuasive case for a lot of good jobs out there that didn't require a four-year degree. Well, fifteen years later.

• 4:05Mike Rowe?

  I finally heard back from the government and I am delighted to tell you about a program called BuildFreedom.us. This is the national PR campaign that MicroWorks has been talking about for a decade and a half now, and it's focused on 300,000 or 400,000 excellent jobs in the defense industrial base. These are the electricians and the plumbers and the steam finners and the pipe fitters and the CNC operators and the ship builders and so forth. But in this case, all of those trades are focused on building out our national infrastructure through the defense industrial base. So people who are building our autonomous weapons, our planes, our ships, it's only

• 4:50Mike Rowe?

  a matter of national security and it's a very big deal. And on a personal level, it's really been very gratifying. Build Freedom donated $10 million to MicroWorks. The money's available right now for you if you want to pursue a skill that's in demand and work in the defense industrial base. I think it's an opportunity of a lifetime. Go to BuildFreedom.us, see what's available and then apply for a scholarship from MicroWorks. The money's there, burning a hole in my pocket. Go get some. BuildFreedom.us.

• 5:25Mike Rowe?

  I want to pick up, Tommy, where we just were. What is in your blood that causes you to swell up so badly when the mosquitoes bite you? What do you think that is? Is there some upside to that kind of reaction to biting insects?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  You know, the good news, I just found out it's protein. And I happen to drink a lot of protein and eat a lot of protein, so I think that's what it is.

• 5:50Mike Rowe?

  Did you hit the gym on the way over here today?

• 5:51Speaker 02

  You know, I got it yesterday, not today.

• 5:53Mike Rowe?

  Ah, thank you for doing this. I knew you, I knew of you when I met you about, what was it, two months ago, maybe?

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, at Alex Epstein's.

• 6:03Mike Rowe?

  Yes.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Energy Freedom Event.

• 6:05Mike Rowe?

  Yes, down in Newport. It's so funny the way things happen, but the ramifications of that seemingly random involvement. continue to reverberate for me. I've met with the governor of Texas.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 6:20Mike Rowe?

  I'm going back to sign a bill with him.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  I heard all about that. That's congrats.

• 6:25Mike Rowe?

  I've talked to Toby Rice, who runs EQT, big energy company in Pennsylvania. I talked to you at length when we were there and just to sum up for the folks listening, there's an awareness. It feels like it's like a memo went out and a lot of people who are in the business of hiring other people have suddenly realized, oh crap, this is real. Five retire, two come in year after year after year after year. And the skills gap is real and the data centers aren't going to build themselves and neither are the submarines. And neither are the people who make garage doors and service them.

• 7:07Mike Rowe?

  This thing is touching everybody, so I want to talk to you about a bunch of stuff. But first and foremost, aside from your weird blood and protein levels.

• 7:18Mike Rowe?

  What's going on with recruiting and how is it impacting your business?

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I'm very fortunate because I don't need somebody that needs a five year apprenticeship to, you know, become a journeyman. So garage doors aren't licensed the same as plumbing and HVAC and some of the other industries, but I love home service first and foremost. And usually what I find is there's a lot of people out there that are so smart. They're so skilled, but they don't want to go down the corporate route. They don't want to get the four year degree or end up getting a master's degree. And I find them in hospitality. I find them of people that have worked around a lot of different personality types. Whether that's discount tires, it could be a mattress store. But they got to be comfortable talking to people unless you're an installer. Usually that's more of a quiet gig where you want to know your schedule.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  And we've got more technicians than we do installers, but I love them both.

• 8:11Mike Rowe?

  How many could you hire right now of both? I mean, what's the number for people who show up eager, willing to work, wanting to learn that trade?

• 8:20Speaker 02

  So we're very fortunate. I don't know what happened in the last few years, but we hire about one in 50 that apply. And we're booked out of classes 50 a month through August right now, so the next few months. And it's a two month training curriculum. I start out the orientation of saying, welcome to the first day of your last job. And it's amazing. I do three and a half hours, no potty breaks. And I just pour into them and it's not really about sales or marketing or anything else. It's about you're one out of 50. And this is an opportunity to break the family curse that was all passed upon us of,

• 9:01Speaker 02

  you know, not being able to take care of your kids and not being able to go on your dream vacation. So I'm going to ask you to do something today before you leave in that stream a little bigger. When I dreamt I wanted to be a astronaut and I stopped dreaming a long time ago. So I'm going to ask you guys to go back to those times and start dreaming big and asking for more. I want you guys to buy a house. I don't want you to go to Disney World. I want you to go to Disney World first class. I want you to get the all express pass, skip all the lines. And I believe you're worth it. The biggest problem I'm going to have today is making you believe that you're worth it.

• 9:32Mike Rowe?

  If you're just joining us, it's important to understand you're not listening to a Wharton MBA, right? You're not a motivational speaker by training. You're a kid from Michigan who started painting garage doors for a hundred dollars a pop.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 9:47Mike Rowe?

  And forgive me for hopscotching around, but it's your your resume does matter, which by the way, tell me if I'm wrong, but are you in possession of maybe the most ironic name of all time? Cause mellow is not the first word that pops to mind when I listen to you. It's so funny. You just strike me as a guy that probably doesn't sleep much. Maybe you do. I don't know, but not mellow.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Well, I've got a little bit of ADHD, believe it or not. I've learned to channel that. I'm loud. I'm pretty obnoxious. I'm not the quietest guy in the room. But people are like, mellow, not so mellow. Tommy Mello, not so mellow is what I'm known for. So I, I have a lot of fun though, and I'm around people that I love. And they know my weaknesses. They know my strengths and you know, I'm as strong as my team. You've heard that thing that you're only as strong as your weakest link.

• 10:38Mike Rowe?

  Absolutely.

• 10:39Speaker 02

  And I've got really, really strong people around me and I hear a lot of people that say this, but I never go to work. I don't go to work anymore. I go do what I love. I say at the end of my orientation, if you've got something great, you have a record day, you do something great for somebody. I want you to call me and I want you to tell me that if something bad happens, something goes wrong, call Luke or call somebody else.

• 11:02Mike Rowe?

  Well, as you share some of your story with me, and I hate to ask because I know you've probably told it a thousand times, but I want people to hear your journey. Because a lot of what we've done here with MicroWorks, it gets sometimes a little muddled. Because people think, oh, okay, so all you're telling me to do is work hard and learn a skill that's in demand and the world's going to beat a pathway to my door. I do believe that can and does still happen a lot. But I also think the willingness, this other quality that you clearly have in spades, a willingness to go to where the work is, a willingness to reinvent yourself, an entrepreneurial

• 11:44Mike Rowe?

  spirit, a measure of ambition, right? Like, those things also really matter. I think, looking back, I don't spend a lot of time talking about them because I kind of feel like, well, look, that falls to the individual. And so, the fallout from that is I've become the guy with the foundation who says, get up early or stay later, work harder. But that's not really ever enough. Not really. So, as you relate your story, I just want people to understand what the other things are that have turned you into... And again, I apologize because this sounds a little... I'm never all about the money, but it should be noted that I think you're worth a billion dollars.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, the thing's been pretty good.

• 12:29Mike Rowe?

  Aw shucks, he says. Your net worth is over a billion dollars. You've made over 25 millionaires around you in your business. So, as you sum this up for me, as a guy who started this by painting garage doors, I just want people to understand that the American dream, or at least some version of it, is certainly something you've lived and are living.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Well, I'll just say this, you know, I'm with Joe Polish. I was at that event and my fiance asked Joe one day, he was at my house and she walks up to Joe and she says, why do you love Tommy so much? Why do you help him? Why are you so good to him? And he says, I've never met somebody who's made the kind of money Tommy has and still... Looks out for the little guy, never mean, super humble. And I almost get teary eyed because I remember where I came from. And I just think a lot of these people that I'm around, they need a chance. Because I got so many chances and people, they took the time for me. And Joe is one of my best friends and he took the time to take me under his wing. And he's just a connector. He's like, who do you want to talk to?

• 13:36Speaker 02

  I can name anybody. And I'm like, well, I just made my niece and nephews read Robert Kiyosaki's book, Rich Dad Poor Dad. He's like, oh, I'll call him up right now. He's like, he could talk to your niece and nephew. So I just love that about him. But I got started when, really it starts when I was a kid is watching my mom and dad get a divorce.

• 13:52Mike Rowe?

  Tommy, excuse me, but Joe Polish, he's the guy, I think, who I heard interview Jan Yekelik. Yeah. Over at Epoch Times.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:02Mike Rowe?

  Who I, who was just sitting here two months ago, talking about the organ harvesting nightmare.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was there for that interview.

• 14:11Mike Rowe?

  So were you really?

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:12Mike Rowe?

  So that's just one more connection, folks. This conference really is turning into like a wall of ivy.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's all big connection. It's weird how the world works. It gets smaller.

• 14:22Mike Rowe?

  Anyway, you're in Michigan, your folks get divorced.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was four years old and I used to stand on the toilet in the bathroom and listen to the drywall of them arguing about bills. And I just said to myself at a very young age that I'm not going to let money tear my family apart. So they got a divorce and mom worked three jobs and she never went to get food stamps. She said, there was a time where the church held us out at Thanksgiving and Christmas. So they give us a turkey and some, I got a lot of student bibles. And, but my mom was too proud. I don't know too proud, but just she wasn't, my grandma had five kids, had to go get food stamps. The old school food stamps that were like really embarrassing. And then they started giving like a credit card to go get stuff.

• 15:05Mike Rowe?

  Man, you're, we don't need to make a meal out of it, but isn't it interesting? I remember those old food stamps. There was no hiding them.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  No.

• 15:14Mike Rowe?

  You pulled them out, everybody knew you were on the dole.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 15:17Mike Rowe?

  And no judgments, good, bad, right, wrong. I'm not sure what my point is, but. What is it, the death of shame? Where the somehow or another, we decided that it would be best if nobody knew who was hurting. And I'm not sure we did ourselves any favors.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  I don't think that's a favor to anybody. I think everybody that had to go on food stamps, it was hard enough.

• 15:41Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Going through pain. My, my mom's whole childhood was a piece of bread and butter. That was good. And that's all grandma had. And she was selling door to door perfume. But she did everything she could to make it, but that was supposed to be rock bottom. That was something for people that absolutely hit rock bottom. It's supposed to be a safety net till you get back up on your feet.

• 16:01Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  And she got on her feet. And as the kids started to graduate and leave the house, she got off of them. And I think it's a way of life now, but unfortunately, a lot of people abuse it. And I think it's there. I think it's a great thing still for a safety net for people. But my mom just decided, listen, I'm going to keep you kids in school. We're not moving out of the house. I'm going to keep you around the neighborhood where you, where you have your best friends. So. I ended up getting a job. I mowed lawns, shoveled snow. I hated asking mom for money. I hated it. So I knew I had to be a self-starter. I got a job when I was 12 washing dishes under the table, $4.05 an hour. And I had more money than anybody. I mean, if I wanted something, I bought it.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  And so I learned to work hard as a young kid and washed dishes, bust tables, serve tables. I bartended. And then I started a landscaping business in Arizona when I moved there. And I did pretty well considering it's landscaping and I just, I didn't go about things the same way. I used to do water conservation analysis, figure out if I should put a drip system in to save you a bunch of money. So I picked up a lot of commercial work.

• 17:07Mike Rowe?

  Right. How old were you at this time?

• 17:09Speaker 02

  I was 19 when I started that business.

• 17:11Mike Rowe?

  Okay.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  And.

• 17:13Mike Rowe?

  What was your first business?

• 17:15Speaker 02

  That would have been my first business is landscaping.

• 17:18Mike Rowe?

  Okay.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  And, well, the first thing I did, this is pretty cool, is one day I'm watching TV and I saw this awesome machine and it was like, the guy was in shape and I'm like, I need that. It was called a Bowflex. And I'm like, I need to buy that Bowflex. So I call up and they're like, it's $2,400. And I'm like, I don't have $2,400. So I go in the Arizona Republic, the old newspaper, classified section. I look up and there's a Bowflex.

• 17:43Mike Rowe?

  Slightly used.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Slightly used, barely used. And I called the guy up and he goes, you're the 20th person that called me. Somebody already came and picked it up the minute the ad came out on Sunday. And my roommate's walking by at the time and says, have you ever heard of that website called Craigslist? And I go Craigslist? No, I never heard of it. I type it in Craigslist, www.craigslist.com. And I go there and I find five Bowflexes for 700 bucks, 500 bucks, 300 bucks, and they were all over the place. I went and bought all of them. And I ended up putting an ad in the Arizona Republic for four years.

• 18:19Mike Rowe?

  What if, say, five years ago, some big oil company offered a promotion that gave you a chance to lock in the price of gasoline at $2.50 a gallon for the rest of your life? Would you have taken that deal? Or what if a nationwide grocery store had given you an opportunity to lock in the price of ground beef at, say, $2 a pound for as long as you live? Would you have taken that deal? Yeah, me too. Unfortunately, those deals were never on the table, but this one is. Today, as in right now, for a very, very limited time, Pure Talk is offering every American the opportunity to purchase unlimited talk, text, and data, along with a 30 gig

• 19:02Mike Rowe?

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• 19:07Mike Rowe?

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• 19:47Mike Rowe?

  You're reselling used Bowflexes.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  So I'm buying them on Craigslist, selling them in the Arizona Republic. And two years into this, I'm flipping around TV and I see Chuck Norris, the Total Gym. So I go on Craigslist, 25 Total Gyms, go buy all of them, place an ad for two more years in the Arizona Republic. And it was the first time I knew what this fancy word was called arbitrage.

• 20:12Mike Rowe?

  Yep.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  You buy it here, sell it here. And it was a completely different audience.

• 20:17Mike Rowe?

  Chuck did the same thing with the Thigh Master for a few years. And he made a killing.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:23Mike Rowe?

  So, okay, so now you're a little bit like 13, 14 years old doing this?

• 20:26Speaker 02

  No, no, that was in my, in my late teens. And I was working at Cheesecake Factory. I was a busboy and I walked into Cheesecake Factory for my normal busboy shift. And this is when everything changed. I remember this day vividly. I said, why do I gotta stay here? There's no tables. We don't close till 11:00. It's 9 o'clock at night. And the manager said, because I said so. And that wasn't good for me. I remember being very angry. So the next night I'm working the same shift, the only busboy there, we're up until 11:00. And I said, why do I gotta stay here? He goes, because Tommy, you make $5.15 an hour. If a table does come in, I'm gonna have to bus it. And I'd rather keep you here till 11. So if it does come in, you could bus it.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  I said, thank you. That's all I wanted was somebody to tell me why, the reasoning behind it. A lot of people were just authority figure. They didn't want to tell me. So I decided I'm never gonna be that guy. If somebody's got a real question for me, I'm gonna give them the honest to God truth. So, long story short, I get in the garage doors, painting them. My roommate says, listen, if you could paint these garage doors, I'd get you a hundred bucks a piece. So I go to Home Depot, I go to Lowe's, I go to Ace Hardware. I figured out there's this paint called Speed Coat by Glidden. And it's 12 bucks a gallon. And you gotta buy the tape and paper. I bought a Magnum V. It was about 600 bucks. And I had a G20 Infinity in 96, so I had good gas mileage. I called everybody in the yellow book and I became their primary painter. And I could paint 10 doors Saturday, 10 doors Sunday.

• 21:53Mike Rowe?

  What do you mean you called everybody in the yellow book? The Yellow Pages?

• 21:56Speaker 02

  The Yellow Pages, yeah. So I, I called every garage door company and became their primary painter. And so I had to meet up with all these garage door technicians and they're handing me these samples. Cause I'd have to match the paint. And I tell the client, I can't match oxidation, but I'll get as close as I could.

• 22:10Mike Rowe?

  Tommy, this is so random. Why garage doors? Why do they need like, what? Help people understand what that niche is.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Well, garage doors in 2005, my buddy started managing in a company. It was a really big company at the time. And he said, there's no paint, there's no color that comes out from the manufacturer that matches their house. So you gotta paint match the house. So they cut out a sample of the old, they grind out a little sample and then they go match it. So Home Depot, you place it under this little thing and it'll match as close as it could get. So I would go, you know, I'd go from house to house. I literally, and this is MapQuest. This is before they had like Tom Tom or any garments.

• 22:55Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  So I set up my route and I'd go knock it all out and I was really good. And I meet with these technicians and they're like, yeah, they were making a lot of money. So I convinced my other roommate to start a business and.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  I knew how to do an EIN.

• 23:11Mike Rowe?

  What's that?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  An employee identification number.

• 23:13Mike Rowe?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  I knew how to get an LLC.

• 23:15Mike Rowe?

  Limited liability corporation.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, so or or a company, a limited liability company. It's not a corporation, believe it or not. And so we picked a name and I I remember we were talking to my partner's really smart business cousin. And he goes, you know, A1 falls first in the phone book. And this time, that was the first thing we did is put a phone book ad out there. Hence, A1 Garage Door Service, which was the biggest mistake in my career because it happens to be there's 93 other.

• 23:43Mike Rowe?

  Everything's A1.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  A1.

• 23:44Mike Rowe?

  No one's B2.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  No, it's all it's all A1 or AAA.

• 23:48Mike Rowe?

  Right, true, like quadruple A.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we started A1 and, you know, unfortunately, my roommate, amazing guy, best friend, roommate, business partner. That doesn't work very well. And I realized there was a lot of contempt and animosity. So in 2010, I got the courage to say, look, you keep the business or I'll take the business. But whoever does is going to take the debt. And he said, look, he's like, I love you, dude. We'll stay best friends. I'm going to move to Montana to be closer to family. And what do you do when you got nobody to trust and you're trying to make it through life is you call mom. So I called mom and I said, hey, I know you've lived your whole life. 2010, I mean, she's 1954, so at that point, she's 56 years old. And I said, I want you to take a flyer on me.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Would you and my stepdad Bill consider moving out to Phoenix and help me run this business?

• 24:39Mike Rowe?

  They're still in Michigan at the time.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:42Mike Rowe?

  Big ask.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  And.

• 24:44Mike Rowe?

  From a kid who didn't want to ask her for money once upon a time, now leave everything you know.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  I gave her a job making 16 bucks an hour, which she was embarrassed about. She's like, I I don't know if I even want your money. So they were always good at saving money. And they did. They she called me back a week later, said, we're going to sell the house and move out there. And they moved in a little townhouse three stories up. Small place, tiny place. And my mom answered phones and my stepdad Bill did everything I hated, which is payroll. And did some of the door estimates. I liked marketing. I liked sales. I like training. I loved like the stuff I love, they let me do. And.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  2014 comes around and we're making the business work. And I meet this really cool guy, his name's Adam Cronenberg, and he says, hey, I'll come into the business. I got a finance degree and he always jokes when we talk now because he's like, dude, there would be three weeks where you wouldn't pay me. And then you give me a $3,000 check. He goes, it was so sporadic. He goes, if we were having a bad week, you'd call me up and say, this is not a good week to get paid. And if I was having, if we were having a bad week, he'd call me up and say, I need you to go run jobs. Can you go run two days worth of work? And I'd go set a record. And he's like, you, you made it. We did payroll. We're good.

• 26:02Mike Rowe?

  And we're still painting garage doors at this time.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  I was, I was painting garage doors from 2005 to 2010. And then I got just into the garage door business with mom. Mom and Bill moved out.

• 26:14Mike Rowe?

  Is that mom?

• 26:15Speaker 02

  That's mama.

• 26:17Mike Rowe?

  Nice.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  That's probably around a little bit before she moved out and.

• 26:23Mike Rowe?

  Are you a mama's boy?

• 26:24Speaker 02

  I am. Yeah, mom is, uh, she's the best.

• 26:27Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  So, eh, long story short, 2017 was a good year. We got on the right CRM. I started the podcast. And I met a lot of, I met a guy named Al Levy, the Seven Power Contractor that taught me standard operating procedures, checklist, the right way to do an org chart. And at this time, I was his last student before he retired and he.

• 26:46Mike Rowe?

  Speaking of which, college at all?

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. So 2010, so believe it or not, I was pre-dental. I took anatomy, physiology, organic chemistry, advanced calculus. Decided when I interned with the dentist, he goes, listen, dude, do not become a dentist. Go to business school. He's like, I still owe 300 grand and I'm 47 years old at the time. And so I ended up getting a bachelor's degree in business and my, my mom encouraged me to get a master's degree. So I did part-time Mondays from four to 10. But I gotta tell you, Mike, I, I didn't use that degree. I, I learned how to network well. I learned a little bit about public speaking. And I did learn about an interesting man that I've become good friends with is Robert Chedney. He wrote the book Influence. Nothing really came out of that, but I do have a master's degree, but people ask,

• 27:32Speaker 02

  would you do it again? And I'm like, absolutely not. It didn't really serve any purpose. It didn't help me. We were doing annual reports, taking these things apart for Home Depot, nothing that I could use in home service. But it was funny because, you know, excuse my French, I don't, but they'd say, I show up and they called it the rape van, this big white van with white letter or black lettering. And I show up greasy after I'd be working jobs all day and they were like, they'd look at me like I was like literally a peasant. And like, why are you even, a lot of the people in that room were like, why are you even here? And I'm like, well, I'm not going to go ever work in the corporate world, but I decided I wanted to get an education. And I smell like grease and people acted like I had like a disease or something. They didn't want to be around me. There's a,

• 28:15Speaker 02

  my people were in there, my roommate later on in life and, and I just remember looking back is, they're great people, but they were moving up the corporate ladder. And I was, I think I was the only one in there that didn't have a purpose for getting the degree to move up, to get a raise, to get a promotion.

• 28:31Mike Rowe?

  Why are you covered with grease painting garage doors?

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Well, this is when I started the, I was working in the garage. And trust me, that they're oily rollers and the springs, you're going to get dirty. And, um, yeah, I mean, look, found the right mentors, was always curious, still am curious, stayed humble. I remember one day I'll leave him, one of the best mentors of all time. He's like a second daddy goes, I said, hey, Al, I've been reading a lot of books. I got a couple of ideas. He goes, stop. He goes, until you know my way, I don't want you to learn anything else. Until we apply these principles, you know, your numbers, your org chart, your depth chart, until you do exactly what I tell you to do, I don't want any ideas. I want you focused. I want your cell phone off when we're working together or I'm going to fire you.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  And I was like, yes, sir. And, and that's how it went. And I was always good with my grandparents. So I learned how to respect elders early. And Al's still a good buddy. We still talk all the time. He's a mentor of mine. But it's crazy because everybody I called, I said, who's got the most private jets? It happened to be all the HVAC guys. And when I got on a service Titan, all of these people invited me.

• 29:38Mike Rowe?

  So people understand service Titan was the private equity?

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Service Titan is a CRM that's known for HVAC plumbing electrical. And the founders are Ara and Vahay. And I called in and I said, I want to be on your CRM. This is 2017.

• 29:54Mike Rowe?

  stands for?

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Customer Relationship Management System. It's the operating system for the business.

• 29:58Mike Rowe?

  Yep.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  And so I call him up and everybody at Service Titan is like, no, no, no, no, no. You're a garage guy. We only do ATRAC Plumbing Electrical. And I got ahold of Ara on LinkedIn. And he called me and he goes, this is Ara. And I said, hey, listen, brother, I'm like you, man. I'm just trying to get ahead in life. I said, give me a shot. He goes, my father was an ATRAC guy. Vahe's dad was a plumber. We're super focused. We're not interested in garage company. You could understand focus, can't you, Tommy? And I said, absolutely. And I applaud you for that. I said, if you get me into your system, you won't need any other garage company. I'm going to be the largest in the country.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  I said, I really need you to take a chance on me. I said, a lot of people gave up on me. Take a chance. And they did.

• 30:49Mike Rowe?

  So at this point, how many employees do you have at A1?

• 30:53Speaker 02

  At that point, I probably had 40. 2017.

• 30:57Mike Rowe?

  Okay, and Service Titan is big.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Service Titan has 1,200 or 12,000 home service companies on them now.

• 31:04Mike Rowe?

  Right. You can't have Titan in your name and be small.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:09Mike Rowe?

  I mean, that would take real hot spot to come out of the gate with nothing and call yourself Service Titan.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  They've got some great stories, man. They've confided in me a lot. I hang out at their house. They've invited me to every single thing when they rung the bell and went public. They've really treated me like gold. I mean, they're like, they're almost like family to me. They've always, I've never asked for an affiliate fee or to give me back money. I said, just help me for develop the garage industry. And they did. And they've done everything. They're tried and true to everything they've said. Their word is their bond. If they shake your hand, they mean it. They're very, very good. And I asked them one day, I asked Ara, I said, how do you keep a fiduciary responsibility to your investors, but yet stay committed to the contractor? And he goes, well, take example you. He goes,

• 31:59Speaker 02

  None of the financial investors in our company would have ever let a garage door company come in, but you've got us over 200 clients and you're the biggest in garage doors now. And so every time we've done something to make it right or take a chance on somebody, it's always worked out for our investors. So we still stay true to our contractors and that's how they grew is staying super committed to their contractors and.

• 32:22Mike Rowe?

  And how big is A1 today?

• 32:24Speaker 02

  We're in 23 states, 42 markets. About to cross 900 coworkers, I call them. And, you know, hopefully going to cross the $325 million mark. But revenue is for vanity and profit is for sanity. So a lot of people brag about revenue and then I realized revenue does not make the world go round. You gotta make profit.

• 32:47Mike Rowe?

  Profit.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Profit.

• 32:52Mike Rowe?

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• 33:36Mike Rowe?

  They also reinforce the heel and the toe with double plated nylon to stand up to the wear those boots put on your socks. Remember it's not the feet that wear out your socks, it's your boots and they back their socks with a 10-year durability guarantee. If you get a hole or a tear in the first decade, they'll replace them for free. If you're a hardworking guy dealing with sweaty, uncomfortable feet, I'm telling you, these are worth trying. I wear mine every day and I'm glad to have the company on the podcast. CamelCityMill.com. Use code ROW, get 10% off my favorite work socks. CamelCityMill.com, code ROW.

• 34:15Mike Rowe?

  Service, yeah, service the distribution, service the debt. Everybody learns that, I think, in their own way, whether you have a business or not. We're just trying to run a household, really.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:25Mike Rowe?

  You know, but the tension you were talking about is interesting between like you're a big company and you're trying to figure out if this investment makes sense. And on a much smaller level, I think about a similar tension. You know, I'm in business with a bunch of home service companies and they all know that recruiting is sort of the thing that comes out of MicroWorks and it's important to me. And I've always wanted to work with companies who are enthusiastic to talk about the opportunities that exist within the company, right? Because I just think that's an important part of getting the whole message out there. And, you know, a pretty good indication of what the culture is like in a given company.

• 35:10Mike Rowe?

  The problem is, I think in the back of people's minds, consumers' minds, when they see a company saying, "Look, look how good..."

• 35:19Speaker 02

  You can do.

• 35:20Mike Rowe?

  That's right. All of a sudden, that translates, "Well, look how much this is gonna cost."

• 35:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 35:25Mike Rowe?

  Exactly. So, that's on my mind more and more, too. But you've been very generous with your employees. I just don't really understand where the... Who's your competition in this space? I mean, how do you think about that? Who do you take from?

• 35:43Speaker 02

  When I... Well, the thing is about us is we like to build from the ground up. Like, I prefer to take somebody with a great personality and teach them to take somebody that's already set in their ways, that's a really good technician. I want to find somebody that smiles, that treats grandma right, that goes in super respectful, that you could trust around your two daughters and your wife when you're not home. I don't want the guys that have grown up in the industry necessarily, and they're great people as well. But I like to teach them from the beginning, our core values and the way we do things and the competitive side of things, and really set them up for life. And, you know, we do have a lot of competition, but I don't look at it as competition. Look, winners focus on winning, losers focus on winners.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  So, everybody's focused on us, what we're doing next, and I, you know, and I invite them in. I invite all the Groger companies. We have a thing called Vertical Track, and there'll be 200 Groger companies there. I'm gonna tell them everything we're working on and how we do it. And people think I'm crazy. When I started a podcast, every single one of the people in my management team said, "Why are you giving away all of our secrets?" I go, well, I'll teach you how to get a six pack too. It doesn't mean you're gonna do it. I mean, it's not hard. The stuff we do, it's just. Everybody knows they what they should be doing, but they don't do it.

• 36:53Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  So I don't feel like we're giving away like the secret sauce. The secret sauce is we grind. We come in, we work hard, we take care of our clients. And you can tell people that, but it's a different thing from saying and doing. We buy all brand new trucks. We give guys 6,000 dollars worth of tools. They can make a great living, but they gotta work hard. I mean, our technicians' job are not easy, but yes, they make great money. They get great benefits. They get an opportunity to earn equity in the business and I'm proud of that. And I still think we're in the fetal stages. We're just getting started. I mean, we are in the earliest part of what this business will become. And what I love is I could leave. It doesn't need me.

• 37:29Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. Well, you build something that's self sustaining. And I mean, it's only the hardest thing to do, but well, what I mean, before I ask you what drives you or some other stupid question, let me just pivot and say that this. The idea of hiring people that you would want to welcome into your house is really interesting. And I think kind of. Well, you're you're addressing a problem that exists in home services. I was just talking to Matt Malone, who I know you know.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  I tried calling him on the way here.

• 37:59Mike Rowe?

  Oh, did you?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, he didn't answer.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Good story. Good story.

• 38:05Mike Rowe?

  I like Matt. We actually, full disclosure, I've been working with Groundworks. I sponsor this podcast and I've been doing some work for them. And I was so impressed with what they did for their employees, right? They ran that ESOP program. Like all the way down into the dirt.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:22Mike Rowe?

  I was there in Virginia Beach when they made that announcement a couple of years ago. It's like 5,000 guys. It's a financial event. Suddenly they're owners.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:31Mike Rowe?

  And my question is, well, for me, anyway, the idea of having somebody under my house, working on my foundation or a crawl space or waterproofing or in the garage, doing things, they're not just, they're not workers, no matter what you call them. They're emissaries for their brand.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:49Mike Rowe?

  And they're there on your behalf, in your house, talking to you about something that's probably.

• 38:56Mike Rowe?

  Got you unsettled, you know, my partner, Mary's dealing with an HVAC problem right now, as you know.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:02Mike Rowe?

  It's maddening because you, it's like there's something magical to this stuff. They show up clean, they go home dirty and hopefully your problem's fixed. And meanwhile, they're up in your attic and they're down in your basement, they're walking through your house. And how do you, how do you train people to be mindful of that? And, and understand that they're not just there to do a job, but they're, they're guests in somebody's home and a representative of, of who you are and who your mom is.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Well, that's what it is about is, uh, we teach them to ask a lot of questions. If you walk out of a job and you don't know what they do for a living, you don't know their kids' names, the dog's name, how long they plan on staying in the home where their kids go to school, you failed. And I can't teach you to want to learn, but when you walk out of these houses, do you know how many relationships I built in garages? People would invite me to church, I got asked to be part of the Mormon church about a thousand times. Uh, and people would invite me, you know, before I, you know, I'm, I have a fiance now, but back in the day when I wasn't, when I was single, people were trying to introduce me to their daughters because I came in with a big smile. And I was just always, I always said, thank you so much for the opportunity. I know you have a choice.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  And when I leave here, I'm going to ask you a question. Are you happy? And I want to make sure that you're happy because the biggest compliment I could ever receive is a referral or if you leave me a review. But the most important thing is that I left your house better than when I came in and I solved your problems. And I give you options. I don't want to give you ultimatums, say yes or no. If you don't like what I have to offer, then let's just pick another option. And, uh, I don't think we're the highest price. I think we're the best investment. And I'm very careful on how I choose my words. I, I don't say, sign the contract, they say, can you okay the paperwork? These little subtleties change everything. And I just know I've met a few clients in my life that have brought me thousands and thousands of jobs and you never know when they're going to come.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  And the worst clients that, that absolutely hated our company, when I call them up and say, listen, when my mom came out and I tell them the story and I listen to them, and usually I'm angrier than they are at the situation. And I say, I'm gonna let you know that he's gonna get written up and he's gonna have a one-on-one with me and this will never and they're like, don't, he doesn't deserve to get fired and and all of a sudden the story changes, but I get angry when somebody has a bad experience. Now, listen, if it's a price thing, I don't promise people I'm gonna be the cheapest because you asked me to come out the same day with a drug testing background technician that's gonna treat you and your family correct and have all the parts and have a brand-new vehicle and honor my warranties. So, I wanna show up when you need this most, I wanna give

• 41:43Speaker 02

  you options and I wanna fix it the right way, not the easy way. And if we're doing that, we're winning. And I don't, I don't ever say, we're not called discount garage doors. A1 actually means like, top-notch, luckily. I didn't plan on, I didn't know there was a, I had to figure out another way, like, it's top-notch, that's A1, that's A1 from day one, baby. So, yeah, but we look a lot at the people. We look at their background and we say, are they honest? Are they humble? Are they willing to learn? And do they want more in life? Because some people, no matter what you feed them and how much you take care of them, they just don't think they're worth it. And I want people, sometimes they have really, you know, this is a big problem, is their teeth, they never have braces, so that's one of the first things we look at. Are you happy with yourself? We talk about

• 42:28Speaker 02

  getting in shape. We have a dream manager. Their full-time job is to work with people to work on, and their significant other, financially stable. Do you got a budget? Are you wanna lose weight? Are you gonna bring a kid into this world? Are you, do you have a vacation account? So, you know, the Michael McKellis Profit First, where they'll split up accounts, we teach them how to do that. And the, the results have been fantastic and I'm, I'm happy our partner allows us to do those things because-

• 42:56Mike Rowe?

  Your partner being ServiceTitan?

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Our partner, Cortech, which is the private equity partner that Matt Malone was with.

• 43:02Mike Rowe?

  Yes.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  And they are fantastic. They are the best in the business.

• 43:05Mike Rowe?

  Well, I gotta ask you about this then, too, because I haven't met Cortech. I know some of the guys at KKR. I know the guy that orchestrated the ESOP-

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 43:15Mike Rowe?

  That Groundworks did, Pete Stavros-

• 43:17Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 43:17Mike Rowe?

  Over at KKR, Ownership Works.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've been studying that program, dot org, yep.

• 43:21Mike Rowe?

  Yep. So, uh-

• 43:25Mike Rowe?

  That's really what I want to talk about. I mean,

• 43:29Mike Rowe?

  how do you think?

• 43:32Mike Rowe?

  Most people can't make the kind of commitment that you've made to their employees, or at least they haven't. And I think part of the reason they haven't is because the lines have been so drawn for so long between labor and management, right? Union and non-union and all of that. And I look at what Groundworks did and I look at companies like yours, where it's not a judgment on unions being good or bad. It's just saying, have you eliminated the need for them?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Well, I'm a big fan of unions back in the day. I mean, you watch the men who built America and they were doing some pretty treacherous things. And I believe now, they're as corrupt, if not more corrupt than corporate America. I mean, the things that they do is like, you know, they stopped the whole plant from manufacturing. And it's, look, I'm not anti-union and I don't want it to come off that way because I don't really get into politics on podcasts. It's not what I do. I'm a small garage door company, well, not small.

• 44:34Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you're tiny.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  But, but I'll tell you that private equity learned a long time ago to do what's called profit units. What I started before private equity was an equity incentive program. And what every strong company does when they go public is they do stock options for the senior management, middle management. And so I teach this equity incentive program. I'm writing a book on it right now called Pay Them What They're Worth. It's coming out in September. And the idea is-

• 45:05Mike Rowe?

  What was your last book? Was it Elevate?

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Elevate, Build A Business Where Everybody Wins.

• 45:09Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  And this next one is Pay Them What They're Worth. And this idea being, people are going to start sprinting in the same direction. And they're going to have a stake in the outcome and they're going to act like an owner. They're going to self-police. I don't love ESOPs. Because I don't believe everybody's earned it and they just come in and everybody gets a fair shake. My old CFO came from an ESOP, was there 15 years as a CFO, got 500,000. He worked for me three years, got a lot more than that. I won't go into numbers, but the fact is you come in, you got a fair shot of earning it. You know exactly what you need to do. It's a Jack Welch. You know what you need to do to keep your job here. 10% is going to leave each year. But this idea that, hey, everybody gets a piece. I don't love that and I'm not saying there's anything wrong. It's better than not giving at all.

• 45:55Mike Rowe?

  But it's not truly.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  It's not meritocracy.

• 45:57Mike Rowe?

  It's not a meritocracy, right?

• 45:59Speaker 02

  So I'm really big into meritocracy and you could earn this. Everyone knows, everybody's got a fair shot. If you want to help, if you got a will, I'm going to find a way. If you lie, cheat or steal, we're not going to do business and we're not even going to be friends anymore. Uh, we don't need to lie, cheat or steal. And if you're struggling, my favorite three letters is ASK. Just ask. That's all I ever do. I had a gentleman at my house yesterday. I'm learning more about this other industry. And I mean, I just asked him questions for four hours. And I loved it because he's given me so much information. I mean, just that opportunity to sit down with this gentleman and the kindest guy. And I learned so much and he goes, the one thing and it's this, this word, uh, yeah, it's not geisha, it's this Indian word.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  But what it means is treat everybody, including yourself, fair. Don't ever judge somebody, like treat everybody like they're human beings. And he's like, that's what, when I die, I want people to say that word. That's what I want on my casket. And I just learned so much from him. And the point being is if more people would have the tenacity, whatever the word is, to just go out there and not feel stupid. Go ask. Success leaves clues.

• 47:13Mike Rowe?

  Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training, like travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately.

• 47:55Mike Rowe?

  I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid are looking for a straight path

• 48:38Mike Rowe?

  into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. I ask this a lot. I mean, in terms of virtues, you know, what's the most important? And the conversations are always great because there are a lot of terrific virtues. But the one you're just talking about that gets overlooked a bunch is curiosity. Like, if you can actually sit there and ask somebody questions for four hours straight and not make it about yourself, that's a, well, it's not a gift, it's a muscle.

• 49:19Mike Rowe?

  You can actually work that muscle out, you know, and, but I don't know how you teach it. I don't know how you make your employees more curious than they would otherwise be. That's probably mom's department, you know? She must have done something smart when you were a kid.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  I don't know what it was either, but I tell you this, is the curiosity has only gone up. As the more success happens, the more I want to learn. I mean, I'm a garage door guy at an energy freedom summit with governors and senators, and God knows who else was there. And people will probably, if they ask me, you know, I'm not, no reason to be there. I just wanted to go and learn.

• 49:59Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  And so this curiosity bubbled in, it bubbles into all these things. And I just wish people would say, ask more questions. That when I'm in a garage and I find out somebody does something. I remember one day I'm in this garage, this guy's talking about Bernie Sanders. And I don't know much about Bernie Sanders. I said, really, what do you like about Bernie Sanders? And he's talking, he's telling me about Vermont and all this stuff. And I learned a lot. I'm not like closed off. If you don't believe, whatever religion or politics or whatever career you chose, I'm going to ask a lot of questions and I'm going to be curious because I'm not going to have a debate with you. I'm just going to ask you where you're coming from. And if I come from that stance, I'm winning. And the reason I went to Alex Epstein is I watched him explain global warming and climate change.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  And he said, we're going to talk about this box. Or he goes, I'm for green energy. And I watched him at this lecture he did, and I said, that is the best thing I've ever heard. So I got a hold of him and I said, I want you to teach me not argue or debate, but how to make a point and have other people see it through my lens. And this, and it's emotional intelligence is what it is.

• 51:07Mike Rowe?

  He sat right there and said, essentially, this will sound like a straw man argument, but it's really not. There are only two ways to think about this. We either need to do what we can to save the environment and the climate, or we need to do what we can to save ourselves from the environment and the climate. Obviously, there's a lot of wiggle room in between. But if you're, if you come at it from the belief that we have some nurturing mother nature, Gaia, right? Who's this benevolent force and we're here thanks to her largess.

• 51:50Mike Rowe?

  And now if we don't screw it up, we'll have a place to live. Or, you know, we're on a cold indifferent rock hurdling at the speed of sound through nothingness. And, you know, look around and you'll, you'll see a fire not far from here, or maybe a hurricane in western North Carolina. And so how do you think about it? That's what he taught a lot of people who listen to this podcast was you just have to set the table. Correctly. And if you if you start out with a belief that, you know, it's not nice to fool Mother Nature, right? You remember the old ads? She's this benevolent goddess who's looking over us, you know?

• 52:33Speaker 02

  They'd have a Native American in the background saying, you're screwing up Mother Earth.

• 52:36Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  The fact is, not a lot of people are dying like they used to. We know about it now in advance. There's, look, at the end of the day, I believe what the future holds, it looks bright. I'm I'm an optimist. I'm not death coming to everybody. There is no heaven. You're screwed. I just believe in, I think human beings are a good thing. I don't think, you know, the half the population needs to go away. It's not grim and black and dark for me. It could be. I don't know what AI is going to bring. I don't know what the weather patterns are going to be. I don't pretend I do know. But I just, I think we're, we're not by accident.

• 53:11Mike Rowe?

  What you know is a well painted, well appointed garage door can dramatically increase the value of your home.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. But 194% return on investment.

• 53:21Mike Rowe?

  Is that true?

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Remodel Magazine, seven years in a row. The Wall Street Journal put out two articles. It's like the hottest thing, like kitchens, bathrooms. You might think, everybody says remodel your kitchen, remodel your bathroom, you'll get the best ROI. You put $100 in your garage door, you take 194 out. We trademarked the garage door as a smile of your home. It's 40% of your curb appeal. And it is, I, you know, I watch a James Bond movie.

• 53:46Mike Rowe?

  Uh huh.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  And I'm looking at the background of the garage doors. I love what I do. I didn't know I would love this so much. But I'm like, that's a Clop.

• 53:56Mike Rowe?

  That's terrific.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  It really is a passion. It really is exciting. And it's something that I've came to love. It's like I said, I don't go to work and I watch people, they text, I get texts. Yesterday, in Minnesota, we saved a lady's life.

• 54:10Mike Rowe?

  Oh.

• 54:11Speaker 02

  Uh, he gave her CPR. She was choking. And I'll tell you this, three months ago, we had to go out to a lady's house. And I got the opportunity to go out there and, and The grandmother was there. And this little girl, five years old, she's 10 now. Ronald McDonald, cancer patient. And I watched this video and I get out of the truck. And grandma's outside and I'm crying. But I'm. I don't have any kids. I don't have any kids yet, but but I just, I thought that day. As I'm talking to this grandma about how hard it's been to watch this little girl go through chemo and barely make it and she's. So far, it's it's really good news.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  But, you know, obviously, we donated the garage door in the opener, but that day, I remember as I'm driving away thinking. My problems are so small. Anything I could complain about, anything not going right is miniscule. It's nothing compared to what that family's going through.

• 55:13Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  To have to live with that, to watch that happening to somebody that that's more that you give your life up for in a heartbeat. You know, if you're the her parent, so. But we go through these things all the time, but there was another another thing the other day and. The technician calls me up and says this lady's going through cancer. She's got three months to live. I said, comp that door. By pricing right, we're we're able to do these things. Otherwise, I'd be bankrupt if I did that, but a lot of times we'll give. Give stuff for unfortunate people away and we do stuff for vets and and we get involved with Make-A-Wish. We're getting heavily involved with.

• 55:47Mike Rowe?

  Boy, I'll tell you, man, the first one of those I did years ago, same story, basically. I'm busy. I'm trying to grow this thing. I got to be in 10 places at once and I had agreed months earlier. Oh, to meet this sick kid and they're plying him in and the family's. Coming in and I'm in between dirty jobs and I got maybe. Maybe 20 minutes with this kid. And, yeah, the minute you walk in and sit down. The rest of your day is finished. You're on the phone, just cancel, cancel, cancel. We're going to be here for a while. And I was thinking of this the other day, just trying to.

• 56:31Mike Rowe?

  enumerate the those moments in my life where you can literally it's like a hand grabs you by the scruff of the neck and goes no man not there here and it's perspective and it's context and you're lucky to get those moments what do you do internally with the guy your employee who saves a woman's life in Minnesota like what do you do like how does that

• 56:56Speaker 02

  I'll tell you what I do is I interview him and we we it's literally I get to interview one to two technicians a week and the whole company sees it I don't need to call my PR company and get this on blast on all the news I just like recognition I think a lot of people they like to be rewarded with recognition and I'm just very proud I've not talked to the homeowner I'm probably gonna give her a call let her get a hold of herself but I got three different calls and two text messages when it happened and I mean I got the voice of what happened if you if I could play it for you later but one of the guys sent me exactly what happened and it's pretty amazing

• 57:39Mike Rowe?

  yeah

• 57:40Speaker 02

  the voice text

• 57:42Mike Rowe?

  yeah it's it's because those are like giant life moments like that guy's life will never be the same you know and like one minute you're put in a garage door and the next minute you're literally literally saving somebody's life and and so now the question is how do you how do you acknowledge it without being gross how do you

• 58:04Speaker 02

  yeah

• 58:04Mike Rowe?

  like what do you

• 58:06Speaker 02

  the opportunity is he's you know my CFO is kind of he's the most amazing guy on the planet he's perfect for me

• 58:13Mike Rowe?

  what's his name

• 58:15Speaker 02

  what's that

• 58:15Mike Rowe?

  what's his name

• 58:16Speaker 02

  Adrian and he's from England and there's certain things I'm not allowed to just hand out cash or give gift cards or anything like that because then they gotta pay taxes on it and we are straight laced I mean there's it's black and white there's no gray so I called him up the other day and I said can we switch our credit card instead of the cash back to get points because I know all the IRS they love to use their points so we'll buy points and I give the guy flights and I could give them gift cards and it's all kosher with the IRS he says yeah we could probably do that But but I love recognition and so we do these trips. I I interviewed one of my texts and and he told me to keep it discreet, but we won't give his name.

• 58:59Speaker 02

  And I'm interviewing him for one of the Thursday meetings and. He says, you know, Tommy, I had a sister. And in nineteen ninety two, I had taught her how to hit the button on the garage door and run out. And I was like, in my head, I go, oh, and he goes.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  The reason they have safety eyes is because of her.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  They crushed, they crushed her. She died.

• 59:28Mike Rowe?

  The garage door did.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, in nineteen ninety two, and he says, you know, I I've been in corporate America. I had forty employees work under me. And every night since then, I've had night terrors. And he goes, so I've been going to therapy ever since then. Every day I gotta go to a therapist. And he goes, the answer was to come work for a garage door company and confront my fear. So I did some research and you were the company that I found that I wanted to be part of. And he goes, I haven't had a night terror in three months since I started here, but you better believe when I walk in the home, I'm gonna make sure everything's safe. And he goes, so I know.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  I'm making the world a better place, one garage door at a time. And that was like, that's pretty crazy. I was like, geez.

• 1:00:15Mike Rowe?

  Well, I'd love to get more of your thoughts on danger and risk. You said something earlier that conjured up an image. We were talking about unions. And once upon a time. My favorite words, still no better way to start a story than that.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:00:31Mike Rowe?

  But once upon a time, unions served a different function in our country. And once upon a time. Our people. Had a different relationship with risk. I'm thinking of that picture. I'm sure you've seen it. New York skyline, 12 guys.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  Oh, sitting on the top of New York.

• 1:00:49Mike Rowe?

  See if you can find that Chuck. It's such a great photo.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  I had that at my house for a decade, black and white.

• 1:00:54Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, and they're just, it's their lunch break.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 1:00:58Mike Rowe?

  They're probably six, seven, maybe 800 feet up in the air.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:02Mike Rowe?

  Sitting on a piece of steel. And one, you know, they got their lunchbox, the guy's having his coffee, one of them's telling a joke. And they're just sitting there. They're not tied off. They're in defiance of, I mean, every single OSHA protocol that could possibly be imagined or articulated. There's nothing, I'm not saying this is a, this is a photo to be emulated. But I'm saying it is so representative of a time in our country. Where we thought differently about risk and part of the way I think that impacts unions and work. You know, it's like the more we've done to eliminate risk.

• 1:01:46Mike Rowe?

  We've paid in some way for that, you know, it's not a bargain, I think. Most people understand. I don't. I know it was transactional. And I'm not sure we got the, there it is. Look at those crazy sons of bitches. Jeez, the guy's lighting a cigarette.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  I mean, safety is the most important thing. I get that and we want our, we were still toed shoes and we do the, the right stuff. But I mean, at this point, look at, there was a big fire here in California. It's gonna take them three years to get the permits. I mean, they make it impossible to red tape the things you gotta go through. It's anti-productivity. It's anti-growth and I understand the need to be safe. But there's, there's measures that just go beyond the scope of what's necessary. Where it becomes anti-growth, anti-good for America. And I just think, you know, China's going out, they got coal mines going up every day. And don't get me wrong, like, let's do the right thing, but let's do it within reason.

• 1:02:47Mike Rowe?

  One a week for the next 30 years between India and China.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Mike Rowe?

  Coal-fired power plants, one a week. That's happening for real. And, you know, there are probably guys over there working on the, what was it, the Three Gorges Dam? And some of these unbelievable construction projects who are taking their lunch break. Much like those guys were back when they were building the Chrysler Building or whatever it was. But my point is, things are always changing all the time, everywhere. And we're in a, in a country and in a world and in a time right now where we're compliance.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:03:24Mike Rowe?

  That's the C word. That's the real, right? You guys have to be in compliance, but of course, just because you're in compliance doesn't mean you're, you're out of danger and it's certainly not an indicator of success. It's just a thing you gotta do.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  We, we had a guy lose his finger doing everything right. He's wearing his gloves. And those are the hardest scenarios, right? I mean, look, I don't care about my E-mod score and workers. Like, I'm not worried about, I'm more worried about that guy.

• 1:03:51Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  You know, and it's, it's horrifying, but out of 600 guys in the field, you know, it's impossible. I, I don't get those phone calls very much. Uh, I think my team protects me. I gotta walk in with a smile. If I don't walk into work with a smile, everyone wonders what's going on. So it's not that I can't handle bad news. I just, they protect me and I've got a great team and they're like, oh God, we don't want to tell Tommy. It's not like, it's not like somebody stole something, but literally they protect me a lot. And I appreciate that about them is they're always trying to make sure that, uh, they're stepping up to the plate every single time and they do. I mean, we were in Milwaukee last week at management meetings and I'm telling you, I was just blown away.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  I just stood there and I stood up and I said, you know how proud I am of you guys? Like, this thing takes so many functions to run. I mean, we've got so much inventory and trucks and camera systems and training and recruiting and compliance. The C word and, and all these things and marketing and booking rates and, and the dispatchers and software and, and it's a garage door company. I mean, it's a more complex than people think and what happened, I was telling Mary this. Is, you know, everybody hates private equity. And I'm like, why? Like, private equity? It could be a hedge fund. It could be disguised in any which way an investor.

• 1:05:13Mike Rowe?

  Because they read Barbarians at the Gate. And because they saw Wall Street. And they, you know, it's always about the outsider coming in, breaking something down into parts, selling it at a profit at the expense of the employees. And ultimately, competition and quality. That's the rap, right?

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• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  Well, 2020 COVID, which was never fun for anybody. But we were deemed essential. I mean, if you couldn't get out of your garage, you couldn't go to the hospital. You couldn't go get groceries if you're trapped. If a faucet breaks, a hot water heater goes bad, and air conditioning gets 140 degrees in the house. And I just remember it changed the whole thing. Like, everything changed. Hotels were shutting down. Nail salons, bowling alleys, movie theaters. Everything was closed. And all of a sudden, we get a phone call that we're deemed essential. One of our lawyers called and they said, you guys go to work, you guys are good. And all of a sudden, yes, the money came because they realized we're not just blue collar idiots. We run a really sophisticated business. We've got key performance indicators.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  We know exactly what our growth is going to be. And it was no longer... And I was never embarrassed to tell people what I did. I'd be talking to a dentist, a lawyer, and a doctor. And I'd be smiling, I'm a garage door guy. And I was not embarrassed at all.

• 1:07:02Mike Rowe?

  Well, you shouldn't be, but I'll tell you, I didn't even think about it till you just said it. If your garage door is busted and you can't get out, you can't get your vehicle out. You're right, that's, it's, that's just not, hey, it's, it's your house's smile. Let's dress it up and paint it. It, this thing's gotta work.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  It's gotta open.

• 1:07:22Mike Rowe?

  It's, right. So that's, I mean, is that the, you're installing these things, right?

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  Well, I'll tell you this, about 40% of our revenue comes from new doors. 60% comes from service. And when you look at how the buyer's persona works, as we've done a lot of studies on our industry. We've spent millions of dollars studying, is it discretionary or non-discretionary? Could we make it through a great depression if it happened? And what's great is, no matter what, you might not replace your door, but you're still gonna get it fixed. And even in 2007, eight, when we were going through the shitstorm of people losing their house. They were giving it back to the banks. They, I remember talking to so many clients saying, hey, listen, I, I'm giving this back to the bank, but I need to be able to get my, my daughter and son's beds out.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  We gotta go move back with the family, but we still need to be able to open the garage. And so, we've been a service-based business. I love new doors. I, I, I love the curb appeal. I love the smile of your home, but really, we're there when you need us most. We'll show up the same day. We'll show up at midnight. We'll be there on Christmas. And obviously, our people get more money to go run those calls.

• 1:08:32Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  But, you know, they love it. They're both decision makers at home. They get to sit down. We try to sit down at the kitchen table and say, look, we just wanna figure out what's gonna be good for you. And we offer coffee on the way. It's, it's just the right thing to do. And so many businesses, it's lucky if they answer their phone now. So if you answer the phone, you're already doing something right.

• 1:08:51Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  For us, if I don't have a 90% booking rate, I'm angry. I'm walking in the call center. I'm working with the agents. I've got stories of me walking into the call center and one day we lost a job. And I called the technician up. I go, can you get to this job in 30 minutes? He goes, yeah, boss, whatever for you. It was in Oklahoma City. And I call up the client, call her Ms. Smith. Ms. Smith answers the phone and she goes, hey, this is Ms. Smith. How can I help you? I said, Ms. Smith, Tommy Mello, 81 Garage for a Service. I know you just had called us and we couldn't get out there tonight. I want to let you know that I could get a guy there in less than 30 minutes. She goes, oh, Tommy, I'm so sorry to tell you this, but I just called another company. They're gonna be out here in about an hour and a half. And I go, would you mind telling me the name of the company? And she goes, XYZ Company. I go, that's a great company. They're very good at what they do.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  I go, what if I could cancel the emergency fee, be there in 30 minutes? She goes, Tommy, I've already booked with this other company. I really appreciate you offering that. I go, no problem. Well, you gave me their name. Why don't I call them and cancel for you? And we'll be there in 30 minutes.

• 1:09:53Mike Rowe?

  See, that's, yeah, all right.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  Anyway, she hangs up, cancels, calls me back. She's laughing. And she goes, you guys, come on out. So you gotta fight for, you gotta, that's the difference, though. You gotta fight for your clients. And you gotta fight for your people even more. That's the thing. These are your internal clients. Every person that I work with, and if you're not fighting for them, they have choices. I mean, my people are sought after. So are Matt's.

• 1:10:18Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  And you gotta treat them like gold. You can't just say, we're gonna treat our clients great, and then, you know, poop on your people. Trying not to swear here, even though I've slipped one.

• 1:10:29Mike Rowe?

  Well, you may mean, you know, poop on your people following shit show is, it's, it's, it's an interesting dichotomy.

• 1:10:37Mike Rowe?

  Here's another C word for you, competitive. You strike me as a competitive, like that, that's not just business. That scenario you just described is personal.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  I'm the most competitive guy you'll ever meet. I mean, literally, I hate to lose more than I like to win.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  And that's a fact. And I am, uh, in the golf tournament, I just got back from Michigan, 24 guys, including my dad and two of my cousins and my brother-in-law and, and, um, undefeated. Uh, our volleyball tournament and, uh, we, we go on this thing called the pinnacle trip with, with, uh, our guys. We bring about a hundred people out there undefeated in the volleyball tournament. We bet 10 grand. As my dad taught me, don't be, you, you don't get a participation trophy. I'm not going to say good if you got in second place. He didn't, he wasn't like, I get a spanking if I lost. But my dad used to beat me in billiards with one hand till the day he showed up and I smoked him. And he goes, what in the hell? And I go, I've been practicing. So he taught

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  me like, I was a wrestler and I just hate losing. I, I just, there's no, like if I played Candyland with my niece and nephews when they were young, I'd whoop their butts. And they go, why are you playing so hard? And I'm like, because you're going to appreciate when you beat me and you're going to know you beat me and I was trying my best. So yeah, I, I, and that's when you walk into this business, you smell the competitiveness, but I explain to people, just because they win, doesn't mean you lose. Elevates about, everybody gets to win in this game. We are, because he made a lot of money, doesn't mean you don't get to make money.

• 1:12:11Mike Rowe?

  So it's not a zero sum game?

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  It's not a zero sum game. And that's what's important is competitiveness is a good thing, but it could go too far. And it could mean I'm in a world of my own and I'm not going to share. So I explain in the orientation of how competition's a good thing, but you got to ask for help and you got to teach the other people how to win.

• 1:12:30Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. You know, it's funny. Chuck and I were talking about like a version of this earlier today. The idea that you give up your secrets. Like you said on this podcast you're doing, which is called?

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  The Home Service Expert.

• 1:12:43Mike Rowe?

  Right. And so, so Tommy brings other people onto the podcast who are growing a business, attempting to follow in your footsteps. A lot of skilled tradespeople who are just kind of out there without a net and some who have had great success, others who have brought in private equity, runs the whole gamut. But earlier you said that, you know, there's this concern that you're going to give away the secrets, right? You're gonna, you're gonna spill the secret sauce. And we were just talking about a show that- I did a couple of years ago called Six Degrees. It's a great show, but distribution is really tough today. And so, you know, the smart money says, well, what you gotta do is you gotta really protect

• 1:13:24Mike Rowe?

  the exclusivity of the asset and you have to shop it carefully and privately and then make a deal with somebody. And that all used to be true and that all used to work. But it's, we are in as different a time as when those guys were sitting on that girder in all these industries. And today, I'm gonna go over after this and I'm gonna talk to Mary and say, we should put Six Degrees on YouTube right now. Just give it away. Just put it out there.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:52Mike Rowe?

  Cause it's a giant world and you never know what happens when you just give it away. Other people will see it. Other ideas will emerge, other relationships will evolve. Look at us, the energy thing. I had no plans on going there. Chuck came along too.

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was.

• 1:14:09Mike Rowe?

  You had nothing else to do, you know? And then.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  I had plenty to do, but I.

• 1:14:14Mike Rowe?

  No, you were gonna be there one way or the other. It's like stepping in gum with you. You're coming. But that's kind of the thing, you know? You don't, I guess if there's a point in all that, it's that when in doubt, put it out. Put it out there. Whatever your secret is, whatever the special sauce is. And it's not gonna be taken from you. It's not, I mean, it might be, but like you say, I can teach you how to get a six pack. It's not a secret.

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  No, it's not that, you know, it's easier in the United States to become a millionaire than to have a six pack. I mean, that's just the facts and you look at us and so many people are like, they stay in this world. There's a guy named Ron Smith. He wrote a book called HVAC Spells Wealth. Started out in the 60s. He passed away. I was fortunate enough to get him on my podcast. And he said, you know what I'd do? He goes, I'd get together all the HVAC companies in Southern Florida and they'd come to my shop. And I'd open up the doors, tell them exactly what I'm doing. And what manifested out of that was a best practices group that he was part of. And that's why HVAC learned it. HVAC was not the best industry. It's just they got together a lot earlier and started discussing how to help each other. And so what I learned was, I'm just gonna invite all the garser companies in and they call it Woodstock.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  I got a couple of hundred garser companies in a room and I had all these HVAC guys come up and talk about why they do what they do. Service agreements, how they work with their vendors, why they drive new trucks, hence depreciation. Financing, which we never call financing, we call it promotions because we pay a dealer fee. And it was like lights started turning on. When you watch these lights start turning on in these guys faces and the smiles. Is they thought they had to work and take all this risk to make a hundred thousand dollars a year.

• 1:15:55Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  But one lawsuit, one accident, one thing goes wrong, one shift in the economy, they're out of business. And it doesn't mean you gotta become a billionaire. Because listen, I was very fortunate. I've had a lot of things go right and there's a lot of people along the way. And look, for me, it's legacy. Like, I wanna see how far we could take this. I met Gary Vaynerchuk. I don't know if you know who he is. And I said, you know what my mom says to me a lot, Gary? And he goes, what's that, Tommy? I said, she asks me, how much is enough?

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  And he starts laughing. He goes, but it gets easier and it gets more fun and you wanna see how far you could take it, right? I go, yeah. I'm like, look, for me, the money's not been a thing for a long time. I don't need to be there. I don't have to go in. Like, I've got options. I could retire my family over and over again, and it's not about the money. My point is, we're doing something big. If you're part of this company, you're part of a movement. Like, we are doing cool stuff. And how many lives could we change? How many lives can we affect? It's something, it's a passionate thing, but it's also fun to watch people bring a kid into this world or lose weight and start hitting the gym. Like, my whole office, I, this is very, ah, I don't know what you would call it, but I walked into my COO's office.

• 1:17:07Speaker 02

  And this is, I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I took off my shirt. And he's like, what are you doing? I go, what's your excuse?

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  And now he's ripped up. He's better, he's more in shape than I am.

• 1:17:20Mike Rowe?

  I see. You're in Arizona, right?

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:22Mike Rowe?

  I don't think you could do that in California.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:17:25Mike Rowe?

  You start walking into CFO office and start taking off your shirt. Next thing you know, you're taking off your pants. Next thing you know, yeah.

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:17:33Mike Rowe?

  Things spiral quickly.

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  Hey, I left my belt on, that's for sure, yeah.

• 1:17:37Mike Rowe?

  But it is connected, right? I mean, if you're competitive, if you're curious, you're going to be as competitive and curious about your physicality, your physical health as you are your mental health, as you are your business acumen. You're gonna be the kind of person who will pick up the phone call, call the customer, call the competitor, talk him out of the, right? You're, if those qualities are genuinely embedded in you.

• 1:18:05Mike Rowe?

  They're gonna manifest in, in every area, for better or worse. Has this personality of yours, this drive, has it, has it impacted you negatively in any way?

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  I've really learned to not be such a sore loser and realize it is a lesson learned. Yeah, there are some relationships that I think were toxic. I, I don't have a high tolerance for people that don't want to try. And so I just gotta leave them alone. And um, my, my old CO used to say there are hikers and there are campers. We gotta have both. And I'm like, I don't like campers. People that just stay still in life and they don't want more. I'm like, then I gotta teach my entire staff. We teach people to be lions and ask for more and go forward in life and be bold. And teach, they can't be lambs back to us. They're like, they, they just want more. They want to figure out how to move out of the truck. They want to figure out, they ask for raises, they ask, and I go, good.

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Good, that's what we've asked them to do. I'm like, you can't teach them to go for no at everything they do in life and then to not do it to us.

• 1:19:14Mike Rowe?

  In defense of campers, there are some in that cohort who got to the campsite by hiking. Right? They went out for a hike and they, they decided, you know what? I've been walking, I've been walking a long time. I'm gonna pitch a tent here for a while.

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  And that's fair. And people go through different stages of life. And I've been there for guys that have been through a lot. Man, when you go through a divorce or somebody passes away, look, that's, I never turn my back on that. Uh, you know, and I don't expect you, like, it's gonna take some time. Time's the only thing that's gonna heal that. And I'm gonna be there for you. And I've been through that now more times than I could count. One of my great friends, uh, one of the top guys in, in, uh, Grand Rapids just lost his mother. And I interviewed him yesterday.

• 1:20:00Speaker 02

  And he said, today's a better day. And I know mom's looking down. I just got the keys to my house. I've got an amazing wife. I'm at my aunt's house. And I said, well, I'll tell you this, Ben. Your mom is super proud of you. You just got a house. You're living your best life. You're such a great guy. You're genuine. You care. And, and you're just, you're getting so far in life. It just, all I want you to do is continue to try. Just better your best every day. And if you continue to walk these lines, the, the world has so much more to offer you.

• 1:20:30Mike Rowe?

  I used to say that all the time about Dirty Jobs. You know, it was the first show I did where I really wasn't a host. I was an apprentice. And when people ask me about the job, I'd say, I, I have one job. It's to try. Paid to try. That's the thing. It was the first time I wasn't really evaluated on competency. Another C word. Worth riffing on. You said something about the Cheesecake Factory an hour ago.

• 1:20:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:54Mike Rowe?

  It reminded me of something and it's, it's got to do with choices. Do you think people are paralyzed today by the, the number of options they have? And of course I'm referring broadly, but also to the Cheesecake Factory's menu, which to this day haunts my dreams. You go in, you want a salad and somebody hands you a book.

• 1:21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:16Mike Rowe?

  It's a book.

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  It's a lot of options.

• 1:21:18Mike Rowe?

  It's just page after page after page and pictures. And I, and pretty soon you just sit there and say, I don't know. And you just wind up ordering something you, you didn't really want in the first place.

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• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  Well, every time I go to a restaurant, because I was a server and a busboy for so long and a bartender. I'll tell you a couple of things. Number one is I love pictures. Because I could look at something and be like, man, that's the way my brain works, is that looks awesome. Like, I'll go, so pictures help a menu. And number two, I asked the server, what's your favorite things? Don't lie to me. I know. I was a server for a long time. I'm gonna tip you excellent. If you give me decent service. I don't expect you to, typically, I tip more than most. And so, it doesn't really matter. You don't have to sell me on the steak because it'll raise the ticket. I used to be the best dessert seller on the planet. I used to say, listen, this dessert is the best dessert. It takes about 20 minutes. So when I put in your entree order, we'll put in the dessert order. I knew nobody was gonna be hungry.

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  So I will always win the contest for the most dessert sold.

• 1:22:46Mike Rowe?

  You know what else works too, at least in my experience? You gotta tell them what sucks. You gotta tell them what to avoid.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:53Mike Rowe?

  If you're also gonna tell them what you love. Because there's just no better way.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  Well, it builds a quick, that's an instant credibility.

• 1:23:01Mike Rowe?

  I literally had a guy look at me, I won't name the restaurant. But I ordered what I ordered and he gives me this. He just goes. Just a real slow head shake. Just don't do it, dude.

• 1:23:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:15Mike Rowe?

  Don't do it. I'm like, alright, what do you think? He's like, get the trout. It's fresh. I said, alright, that's great. But anyway, go ahead.

• 1:23:23Speaker 02

  No, I love that advice. One of the coolest things in life is there's a book by Daniel Pink called To Sell is Human. I'll tell you the biggest stigma about our industry is when you hire a salesman. If you ever meet a wife or a husband, you're in sales. You know, you're probably not farting out loud, you're probably not burping, you're probably opening their door. When you get your son or daughter to make their bed, you're in sales. Uh, there's this bad stigma from a long time ago that the used car salesman and money was a bad thing too. Anybody that's gone through the Great Depression. Has been like, oh, Thanksgiving comes and look, we're eating like the rich folk. And so, having money was a bad thing, sales is a bad thing. And I go, listen. We go to this church called Impact Church, Travis Turner is the pastor.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  And I go, how many of you guys have been to church? And I say, do you think your pastor is a good guy or a bad guy? And a great guy, yeah. And I'm like, when he gets you to typically what they need to do to keep the church going is to get money. And so typically, they're going to talk about paying your 10%. And that's what their success, they're in sales too. And this idea of sales is a bad thing. Yes, there's, if you were to close your eyes right now, and I told you, think about it, sales and write it down. Most people would write it to this bad story about how they've been burned in sales. And so my job is to turn around and say, look, we are giving opportunities, we're solving problems, we're letting them decide, we give options, and they pick what they want.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  I, the first thing I started out my orientation with is how many people here sell things to people they don't need. And everybody's like, no, no, no, we don't do that. I go, that's all I sell to people. I go, I got a brand new cell phone, the old one was fine. Who needs a garage door that you could open up from a cell phone? I'm like, who needs a steel back two inch thick polyurethane door?

• 1:25:15Mike Rowe?

  If they need it, they'll order it. And order is different than a sale.

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  I just talk to people and say, listen, I love this. This is what I put in my mom's house. This is what my dad has. This is, I believe in this. Would you like this? And they buy things they want. Do you know how many things we have in life that we didn't need, but we want? You need oxygen, you need water, you need clothing, you know, you need a place to sleep. And I'm like, guys, you're not a salesperson, you're giving options of what's, people buy stuff all the time that makes their life easier. And there's this thing that I learned about yesterday from this gentleman I was talking about called anyway dollars. Like, you're gonna spend the money anyway. Like, Amazon Prime and Walmart will deliver into your garage. And there's a lot of

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  people that steal, that are porch thieves. So why not have them deliver all your groceries into your house? You're gonna order the groceries into anyway. And so he started to teach me, like, your energy bill goes down, and he does water purification. And when you do water purity, like, the soap goes a longer way, the conditioner, the dishwasher lasts longer, the washing machine, like, the hot water heater will last longer, you give a better warranty. And he calls it anyway dollars. And I'm like, that's genius. You're saving people a fortune that it pays for itself.

• 1:26:34Speaker 02

  And so I'm gonna, me and Asher are gonna work on everything for a grocer that are anyway dollars. You're gonna use the money anyway, not put it towards an investment into your home.

• 1:26:42Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  I just love this stuff. I could talk to you all day, but.

• 1:26:45Mike Rowe?

  Well, look, we gotta land the plane, but the last thought is philanthropy. I know you give a damn about a number of things. And, and maybe, I hate to ask you for advice, because you know what, it's a, you never really know who's listening and different people need to hear different things at different times. But you did carve out a chunk for yourself and for your company. And when I think of the 2,500 people that we've helped through MicroWorks, you know, they're, they're out there in the wind. I don't know how all of them are doing. I know many of them are doing real well. So, in the world of home services and skilled trades, I know you don't have a crystal ball, but what would you say to

• 1:27:28Mike Rowe?

  people who are considering learning a skill and, or maybe even hanging out a shingle? Is there some advice that you feel like is, is evergreen?

• 1:27:39Speaker 02

  Well, I know about a decade ago, I was told, go to school, get your degree, be, become a developer, get into coding. And this fancy thing came out that I've been studying the heck out of is artificial intelligence. And next year, Elon Musk with Tesla is coming out with robotics. You'll be able to walk the dog, it'll do light landscaping, it'll do light cooking. It could do some pretty cool stuff, but it's learning in the process and it gets smarter and updated all the time. I don't believe skilled trades will be replaced anytime soon. So you've got a long horizon. It's in need. The average plumber is now in their 50s. I'm telling you right now that there's not enough people going into the

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  trades. And it's not a sexy job, but it's fun. And you get to work with people and you get to grow into the business. Get the right company, but you can make six figures, you can get the benefits, you can be part of a brotherhood and sisterhood. And you get to work with your hands. Like I was gonna be a dentist working in people's mouths. Like, I can't imagine that life. I would say, listen, I love what I do. And if you ever want to come visit our shop. It's Tommy Mello, no W, dot com, four slash shop. I don't charge a penny. We'll take you through, show you what it's all about. And I don't want to make money doing this stuff. I want to pay it forward with the so many people that paid it forward to me. And I really think this industry

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  is, it's the best thing. And I know, by the way, the number one suicide rate is dentists. Doctors, not much better. Lawyers, you know, I could, I'm not even gonna go down that road, but that all these people that make money, they're gonna be replaced. Like right now, even the surgeries they're figuring out, like the best surgeon puts on the gloves, the AI is learning. They're taking the blood, the blood after. Those things will be able to do more. Right now, they could put stitches into one corn kernel.

• 1:29:32Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:33Speaker 02

  Like, trust me, it's coming.

• 1:29:34Mike Rowe?

  And it's the top of the first inning.

• 1:29:37Speaker 02

  Just wait for the next five years. And I'm telling you, they're not gonna do garage doors, or HVAC, or crawl in attics, or going under. Like, there will be advancements.

• 1:29:44Mike Rowe?

  You think they'll be pulling teeth?

• 1:29:48Speaker 02

  I think, yes. I think pretty soon there will be something that does the dental work.

• 1:29:52Mike Rowe?

  Well, congratulations on what you've built. And, and thanks for building it the way you built it. I think, you know, I, I, your podcast is, and by the way, it's not just a like a little vanity thing either. You, you've actually got a, a chunk of listeners out there. Like, people are listening to this thing regularly.

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's a couple hundred thousand downloads a month. And I've never missed an episode. Never missed one. And

• 1:30:20Mike Rowe?

  You do one a week?

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  One a week. And the real thing was, is I needed help. I needed something to allow people to come. I couldn't afford all the consulting I got. I'd get them for an hour to two hours and get to ask them any questions I want. So I remember one day I was having this huge problem in HR and I, you know, human resources. And it's actually a good thing if you really look at what it is. We always think about HR as this bad, bad thing, but I found the number one person on the planet for HR, invited them on and I asked them a million questions and one out of 40 people I have on the podcast I hear to consult me. And that's always how it worked out, one out of 40. And so I've always invested into myself and I think the people listening, if you get an opportunity, Michael Jordan had three coaches and he had, you know, Phil.

• 1:31:04Speaker 02

  Like every single person that's listening, if you're not investing into yourself, you're losing. I worked with Dan Martel, he's excellent, he got me to look through things through a different lens of buying back your time because there's 168 hours in a week.

• 1:31:18Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 1:31:18Speaker 02

  You spend 50 working, 50 sleeping, maybe you spend 10 working out if you're in great shape. You still got 60 hours left. Like you go watch your favorite Netflix show, spend time with your wife, going on dates, take time with your kids and still have plenty of time left. That's another thing that he taught me is own your calendar. Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, all these people, you know what the equalizer is?

• 1:31:42Mike Rowe?

  Time.

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  We've got the same amount of time. So you might say, man, they keep getting lucky. They got this. They know the one thing they can't, they'd give it all back to take back 40 years. So I love the fact, I feel old sometimes, I feel young sometimes, I'm 42, but I feel like I'm just getting started. Like tomorrow's gonna be a great day.

• 1:32:00Mike Rowe?

  You're walking around with a notebook. Is that thing always with you?

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  I always have notes, yeah.

• 1:32:05Mike Rowe?

  I mean, you actually like, I thought you were making notes about stuff you wanted to talk about, but you actually wrote down stuff that I just said.

• 1:32:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, avoid. I always take a lot of notes and I think that's a great, that's one of the things if anybody's out there that if you want to impress people, number one, I can't remember everything. Number two is take notes, take notes, especially if you're on grandpa or your elder or somebody that's been where you want to go, is write things down. When I brought this in front of Al Levy in 2017, he goes, you know, Tommy, I've sat down with 50 people your age, not one of them brought a notebook and took any notes. Not one of them.

• 1:32:44Mike Rowe?

  Well, since you invoked mothers, you know what my mom did for the last two years of her dad's life? She walked across the lawn and sat next to him. He was blind by then, he was 90 years old, and just asked him questions and wrote down all the answers on a legal pad. My mom writes every day. And I watched her doing that, you know, and just thought, I'm not sure I understand what's happening, but you're so right. The curiosity, like at getting my pop to talk about his youth and then writing it down in front of him, couldn't see her doing it, but he knew, he knew what she was doing.

• 1:33:24Mike Rowe?

  It's a supreme and sublime compliment to be that interested. That's why taking notes is, is interesting.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, no.

• 1:33:35Mike Rowe?

  It's a hallmark of curiosity. Now, now what are you writing? What are you writing?

• 1:33:38Speaker 02

  Well, I like what you said, be interested. And when you're interested, you take notes.

• 1:33:41Mike Rowe?

  Well, the most interesting people are always interested.

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:45Mike Rowe?

  You can jot that down too, if you want. That's a free one.

• 1:33:47Speaker 02

  The most interesting people are the most interested. As genuinely being interested, I tell, I tell the folks I work with, I say, if you don't really are interested, like if someone's got a Harley and you hate motorcycles, don't talk about Harleys. But if you love Harleys and you've been to Sturgis, ask them questions about it.

• 1:34:09Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:10Speaker 02

  And you watch people light up.

• 1:34:11Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 1:34:12Speaker 02

  I say this, my number one rule is knock the door, don't ring the doorbell. Strangers ring the doorbell. And when the dog comes, the dog is like there's six sets that's gonna know. So you gotta play with the dog. If they got a cat, you're allowed to run.

• 1:34:21Mike Rowe?

  I'll leave you with this, folks. Tommy Mello, once upon a time, bought a Bowflex and resold it. And then he did it again with the total gym.

• 1:34:33Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:34:34Mike Rowe?

  And the idea that you understood arbitrage at that age, and now today, are building whatever this thing is, I don't know what's beyond A or before 1. Some Greek letter maybe and a zero, but whatever you're doing, man, you are on some kind of ride and you must be this tall to get on it. And you are. So, congrats.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.

• 1:34:56Mike Rowe?

  I owe you one. If I can ever return the favor, let me know.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  Well, you're a busy guy. You know, I want to work with you in the future. I'll tell everybody out there, you know, Mike is probably one of the busiest guys I've met, but he took time to respond to my text message, and I think you did it.

• 1:35:10Mike Rowe?

  You know what you did, dude? You sent me a video. I ignored two text messages, not on purpose, but I was just jammed and I was walking out of like a restoration hardware or a pottery barn or something. And you literally sent me a selfie saying, hey, I'm so respectful of your time, but I think we need to talk about a bunch of stuff. And there it is. Now I understand why you would get on the phone and call a customer and then ultimately go around her to call the competition. You're something else, dude.

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  Well, I'm glad I'm here and I'm honored.

• 1:35:46Mike Rowe?

  Welcome back anytime. Tommy Mello, everybody.

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  All right, thank you.

• 1:35:49Mike Rowe?

  If you like what you heard. And even if you don't. Won't you please? Won't you please? Pretty please, pretty please. Subscribe. Well, I hate to beg and I hate to plead, but please, pretty frickin' please, please sub- oh, please subscribe.

• 1:36:20Speaker 05

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• 1:36:50Speaker 06

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