Ian Astbury

Ian Astbury is the longtime frontman and founding member of The Cult. He began his music career in 1980, initially gaining recognition with the post-punk group Southern Death Cult. The band later evolved into The Cult, with guitarist Billy Duffy, bassist Jamie Stewart, and drummer Raymond Taylor Smith. Known for their blend of post-punk, gothic rock, and hard rock, The Cult released several successful albums throughout the 1980s and 1990s, including Love, Electric, and Sonic Temple, featuring hits such as “She Sells Sanctuary,” “Love Removal Machine,” and “Fire Woman.” Astbury continues to lead The Cult in the present day, most recently fronting the band on their 2025 North American tour, which features music from both The Cult and their earlier incarnation. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: LMNT Electrolytes https://DrinkLMNT.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www. AthleticNicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Squarespace https://Squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Rick Rubin?

  Tetra Grahamerton.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  I was born in sixty-two, the year the Beatles broke. With my father had three sisters, so three aunts, and then my mother had seven. So there was all these matriarchs raising me, and they were all obsessed with Beatles and Stones and pop. So I had that. I remember shopping with my mum when I was like eighteen months old. Beatles are in Liverpool, we're in Liverpool shopping. I remember us holding our hand and people freaking out.

• 0:53Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  I was sixty-two.

• 0:56Rick Rubin?

  Unbelievable.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  So I'm sixty-two now.

• 0:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  So it's definitely a...

• 1:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I'm right behind you, right there.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  You're a father.

• 1:02Rick Rubin?

  Very, very close. But we've, I mean, we've been together for a long time.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  We've been together for a long time, you've been, since we met, since I first sat down with you. You weren't in the dorm, you were out.

• 1:15Rick Rubin?

  I was still living in the dorm.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  You were still at the dorm?

• 1:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I walked from the dorm every day to Electric Lady.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Right, okay, so that is one thought that I was like, was Rick in the dorm?

• 1:25Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I don't think I had ever produced an album before your album. I was working on, I remember working on the Beastie Boys album, but that was not done. It was still in process. And I want to ask you, I don't know how you knew about me, because all there were at that time were the seven-inch singles.

• 1:44Speaker 01

  That's right, Cookie Puss.

• 1:45Rick Rubin?

  I didn't make Cookie Puss though, but the Beasties did.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  I heard that.

• 1:49Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  They made it.

• 1:50Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  But I was like, what are they doing?

• 1:54Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  What's going on in that world?

• 1:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  I had to know everything about it. And then your name came up. You were either working with them or associated with them in some way. And then it was like, as we were going through the process of Electric One.

• 2:09Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  It was written called Electric, it was called... I think I was trying to reenact a scene from Apocalypse Now in Richard Branson's mansion. They put us in After Love album, they put us in Beggar's Banquet, put us in this Richard Branson's studio in Oxfordshire, which had, goes back to the 13th, 14th century. There was an Irish wolfhound running around, there was fields, and I was just lost because I was a city kid. And we had so much outboard gear, digital gear, and that seemed to be getting layered on every track. And I would come in, I'd be eating mushrooms at the field, and I'd come in in the evenings, reenacting a scene from Apocalypse Now, I'd be in full camo paint and come in and go like, what is this?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  It's so dense, I can't hear anything. And I'd already clicked with Cookie Puss in my head, and that stayed with me, the stripped back sound. And that's when I think we reached out to you, we started like,

• 3:07Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  Do you think you could fix this? And I believe your response was like, give me two or three original tracks, and we'll fix the rest of it. And from there, we came to New York and we met with you. And I remember you put on the Blue Cheer, Summertime Blues, and I'm not going to say what you said, but it's quite derogatory towards English music at that time. Like, overproduced, dense, much more kind of,

• 3:33Rick Rubin?

  It felt like the rock and roll had left.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  The animal wasn't in it.

• 3:38Rick Rubin?

  That energy had turned into something else.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  It had, I mean, I think growing up in North America was a real thing for me as well, because I grew up in Canada. So, to me, New York City was Mecca.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  It was a place that was mythical. And every Saturday morning, I would watch religiously Soul Train, and I would try and copy the dance moves, and I wanted this music. I was so caught up in it and all the sports and everything, but just.

• 4:05Rick Rubin?

  Soul Train was the greatest.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  You know.

• 4:07Rick Rubin?

  Greatest show.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  What year was it? Seventy five, Pink Floyd came to Hamilton, Ontario. I was thirteen.

• 4:15Rick Rubin?

  How did you get from Liverpool to Ontario?

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Well, my mother was Scots, she was from Glasgow. And at the age of six weeks old, I was pretty much taken to Scotland. So we lived between Liverpool area, it was Birkenhead, it was across the river, the River Mersey. Where the fairy crossed the Mersey, that's where it goes to, Birkenhead. Which isn't considered to be Liverpool and people in that local area will let you know.

• 4:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Like New Jersey, New York, it's like.

• 4:45Rick Rubin?

  But it's just right over the.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  It's just literally over the river.

• 4:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, it's right there.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  So dad's from that area, mother's from Glasgow. So I lived between the two cities and in the early seventies, Britain was in an economic slump.

• 4:56Rick Rubin?

  What was Glasgow like at that time?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Very rough.

• 4:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Both cities had been bombed very heavily during World War Two. So I was born seventeen years after the end of World War Two. We were still playing in bombed out buildings as kids. Everybody still had a post-war mentality, rationing and, you know, fruit came in a can.

• 5:14Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  So Malcolm McLaren talked about this, we were born in a culture of necessity. As opposed to the culture of abundance availability.

• 5:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  You know, and that's why that music, I honestly believe, came out at that time. Because it came out of a very desperate, necessary life force was coming through this world that had been bombed. You know, and that's things why the Beatles were so important.

• 5:42Rick Rubin?

  So your first memory of music sounds like your parents and the Beatles.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dad was in the merchant navy.

• 5:50Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  He traveled a lot and he brought records back. In fact, he was in Brooklyn in the fifties. He would bring back records like Paul Robeson.

• 5:56Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  And play them in the house.

• 5:58Rick Rubin?

  So growing up, you heard eclectic music.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, my mother loved Johnny Mathers.

• 6:03Rick Rubin?

  Oh, fantastic. You got to hear all different things.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  I got to hear everything.

• 6:07Rick Rubin?

  That's great.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  I remember seeing Magical Mystery Tour on TV when it came out.

• 6:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  But it was in black and white.

• 6:12Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  I remember trading Yellow Submarines, trading cards on the playground.

• 6:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  They were like, didn't have Pokemon cards, we had Yellow Submarine cards.

• 6:21Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  You know. Pirate radio.

• 6:24Rick Rubin?

  Even then, there was pirate radio.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  In the sixty, late sixties, I had a small Japanese transistor radio. About eight or nine. And I had a single, it was one single, it was mono, single earplug. So when I went to bed, when I was supposed to be sleeping, I was listening to Radio Luxembourg, could pick up a bit of Radio Caroline. So I was hearing this other music from other dimensions. Like, I vaguely remember hearing Riders on a Storm in seventy, seventy-one.

• 6:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Came through the little headphones, like something exotic, you know, at the age of ten. And then Bowie, of course.

• 6:58Rick Rubin?

  The fact that you were able to hear these things and no one else was able to hear them at that time, how did that impact you? Do you think it would be different if it was playing on the radio and everyone heard it? Or was it special because it was like a secret that you were let in on?

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Well, because we moved around a lot. I was always the new kid at school, like I went to about nine schools between going from Glasgow to Liverpool area, Merseyside. I was always an outsider, I was always a new kid at school. But the constant was music.

• 7:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  So I'd find the kids that were the other kids on the fringes of the regular, you know, the more conservative kids that were programmed.

• 7:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  We were not programmed, we were only outside. I had long hair in the sixties as well. So music's what we identified with, was like, what are you like? I'd be like, Slade, Sweet, T-Rex, Bowie. I'd be like, okay, I'm with you. Slade were kind of like, they started with skinheads. Sweet were a bit more glam. They wore a lot more makeup than Slade. So Sweet were kind of more glammy.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Mark Bolan was femme. Like, if you're like Bolan, you were like, you know, definitely on the outside because he wasn't a geezer. I love Bolan. The first two singles I bought.

• 8:20Rick Rubin?

  The music was incredible.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Oh, it's staggering. Staggering. In fact, I think the doc just came out on him, on Mark Bolan. But the first two things I bought was Life on Mars with my own money and twenty-five pence. And I think it was Telegram Sam, like seven inches, went to Woolworths and got them at ten. And that was it. That was zero point I now had.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  The actual holy relic, you know, in my hand, it was vibrating. It was a tantric weapon. The seven inch single went on and I just played it.

• 8:53Rick Rubin?

  What was your first memory of punk rock?

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Oh, first memory of punk rock? Well, I was in Canada at the time. And we emigrated to Canada in nineteen seventy three because the economy in Britain was really bad. And there was no work and we had an aunt who lived in Hamilton, Ontario. So she was able to sponsor my family to go to Canada. So my dad was like, we're gonna emigrate. We've got a choice of New Zealand, South Africa, or Canada. Let's pick it out of the hat. I think they've written Canada on every single bit of paper. You know, but it was a fun game for the kids. I have a brother who's eleven months younger and a sister who's five years younger. So we all picked a name out and he said, what have you got? Canada. It's like, okay, we're going to Canada.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  So I think the first thing was like being on the, coming from the airport in Toronto to Hamilton on a freeway in a big car, a massive car, and looking out the window in absolute disbelief at the architecture, the freeways, the size of the cars.

• 9:54Rick Rubin?

  So different.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  So different.

• 9:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Completely different planet. There was television shows coming from America that we saw. But being in it in five D, you know, really in it.

• 10:06Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. And still BBC was so ubiquitous that I don't know how much US stuff you'd see.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  We got things like.

• 10:13Rick Rubin?

  Films, maybe.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  I remember stuff like, well, the kind of films my father would take me to see were things like Lawrence of Arabia.

• 10:21Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  David Lean.

• 10:22Rick Rubin?

  Beautiful.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Peter O'Toole, who Bowie adored.

• 10:25Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  That's where we got the Let's Dance look was from Peter O'Toole. That was the character. Yeah, so that was the kind of films were these epic romantic films that we were taking to see. Oh, I saw The Jungle Book and I've seen that, The Technicolor, which was pretty intense. The color was intense because the lives, the places we lived were in a post-war, very gray.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Quite monochromatic.

• 10:51Rick Rubin?

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  And then you go and see a Technicolor movie and you'd be like, whoa. I think the Beatles were tapping into that with, obviously, they went from Gothic.

• 11:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Tenements and grayness and bombed out Britain and Northern Germany to, you know, having cups of tea and.

• 11:09Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  All of a sudden get psychedelic. So there was this new world of color and.

• 11:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. If you think of their album covers, it did kind of go from a black and white world. To a Technicolor world just over the covers.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  But Revolver to Rubber Soul, Rubber Soul, Revolver, then I think it was Sergeant Pepper's.

• 11:26Rick Rubin?

  I think that's right.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Then that's like a full scene change. That's nuts. But there's so much going on. But that was my first kind of impressions of North America. So Star Trek.

• 11:37Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  I'm of Star Trek.

• 11:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  But then coming to North America and we got to our apartment, which was on the 11th floor of an apartment building. That, my mind was blown. My dad said, we got this TV set. It's a huge piece of furniture. It was an Admiral, was it? Forty-eight channels.

• 11:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Forty-eight channels in color.

• 11:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  We could not believe this piece of machinery. It was, it was alien to us. We had three channels in black and white.

• 12:07Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  But the good thing was when we lived in the Merseyside area, you'd have Top of the Puppers every Thursday night. And it would some, for some reason, play later on BBC Wales, because we're in the Northwest. So we'd see it on BBC Northwest, whatever that was, and then flip over and be able to see it again. That's the only way you can see Starman in 1972 when it was on in black and white. It's like you flip over to BBC Wales. So maybe got to see half of it again or something like that. I remember that being on TV. But the thing Britain was that everybody saw, pretty much every kid at that moment, who was drawn into music and this new culture, post-war culture, the lightning, the voltage was coming through the same channel.

• 12:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  And that's what they were picking up on. So it was a collective experience.

• 12:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. So other than the pirate radio that you got to hear, because that was outside of that.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. That was outside of that. You know, there's a lot of pop magazines, mostly ended like teenage girls, Jackie.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  There's a magazine called Pop Swap. Color pictures of your favorite pop stars. Billy would appear in these magazines. Tear these pictures out. They'd be on the walls of my aunt. You'd see these color pictures, again, color, in this black and white world, monochromatic world. And you see these color images of whomever they were into. And as the time was progressing, the clothing was changing, the look was changing. That was our Instagram. Yeah. Was actually tearing, tactily tearing pictures out of magazines. Because when I was in Canada, I was so homesick for the culture. I missed it. It was very different, Canada. And then I was at another. I was definitely an outsider. I was an immigrant and treated as such. So I wasn't with the regular native.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  You know, kids had been there for several generations. So my group was like indigenous. One of my best friends was from Jamaica. There was a German girl. Didn't speak much English. That was my set. And Kiss was very popular. But I saw the New York Dolls on Don't Christian's Rock Concert, whatever, like seventy-four. And I was like, oh, this. So you talk about punk rock? Yeah. That was probably the first time I saw anything. I just watched that clip the other day, that exact clip of them on. It's like personality crisis or something? That's what it was. You forget how unbelievable. Yeah. David Johansson and Johnny Thunders. Oh, my God. You know, you're a teenage kid. It was a good group.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Oof. It was a phenomenal group. Billy and I bonded on that later. We went to see Johnny Thunders in the early eighties in London, in Lysian. I actually ended up playing with him at Cat Club in New York. Fantastic. Very drunk. He wasn't in good shape. He was being held up on stage, but. Yeah, I saw him fall off several stages over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was a lot. I mean, it was a Petri dish. It was just. Yeah. It was just my path. I didn't separate that I had some sort of unique path. That was my life. It was my family, my life. It just was. I just accepted it just was and had to deal with the trials and tribulations of each change. I don't think my parents really understood the effect it had on us, the way it impacted us. Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  All these different changes. Yeah. But like I said, the music stayed constant and it was always there. If I needed some sort of escape. Any transgressions or abandonment or whatever it was or being resented at at school, a new school for being an immigrant kid or whatever. The music would come on and go home, put the music on. And that would be like, I'm now in my place. Turns to your question about punk rock, I mean, New York Dolls, yes. But we went back on a vacation in seventy seven. And it was a Queen's Jubilee. And my grandfather wanted us to go see the Queen on the royal yacht. There was going down the Mersey and we're on the Birkenhead side. So we went to some point where you could see.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  There's the royal yacht going by and everyone's waving hello, the Queen, and it's a Jubilee. And then there's all these kids like with spiky hair and ripped clothes. And I was looking at them going, what is going on? Who are these disheveled?

• 16:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, because we hadn't even seen images of punks yet.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  I think there was maybe a vague whisper about the Pistols, like listening to, because we had FM radio in Canada. We had stereo.

• 16:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  And they would play full albums. And they were starting to talk about this thing happening in the UK. So this is seventy seven, summer of seventy seven. And I'll go remember going to Woolworths because that's where I got my singles. And number one was blanked out.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  It was just like they had all the other top twenty, but number one was blanked out. It was God Save the Queen.

• 16:55Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And these kids were flipping off the Queen. And I was like, they're outsiders. Wow, my tribe. So as soon as I went back to Canada after like three, four week holiday. For Christmas, my mom got me Nevermind the Bollocks. So December twenty fifth, nineteen seventy seven, I'm opening that and going like, oh. And I put it on. She says, play the record, let's hear it. I'll play it for her friends. I put it on after like twenty seconds. She was like, can you turn that off a bit? Turned I am an anti Christ. She was like ten and a half. But you can play in your bedroom. Yeah. We had a set of encyclopedias in our house. We were allowed to explore. You know, they kept an eye on us, but they never came down and said, you know, turn that music off or.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  They didn't encourage us, especially my mom. She was like, let me buy records, let me have long hair. Yeah. So the pistols weren't for her, but it was okay for you. Yeah, it was fine for me. She understood it. I mean. Great. Yeah. Well, she understood my. Yeah. Affection for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I became full punk. Yeah. Like cut my hair. Yeah. I think I had a baker's jacket that I took, my sister took in for me, she could sew a bit. Flared trousers became straight leg trousers. I went from like in progressive rock and Bowie. A little bit of Iggy into full punk. Yeah. And that was like seventy eight, but I left school in seventy eight. I left school. Cause my mom got cancer.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  So I actually left school so I could work. To bring the extra money home so we could get money to go back to Britain. So she wanted to die with the family. So seventy eight, September seventy eight, we went back to Britain. And then I was back in this schoolyard. In Glasgow, which is a pretty rough place and I was a yank. I wasn't a Brit kid. Yeah, but you weren't, but to them you were. I'm actually more Scots than I am English. I see. Called them to my DNA. Yeah. Just found out I'm three percent Danish as well. So that's the Viking. That was it. And then I was on the playground, but there was all the punk kids there. And they were like, come and hang out with us. Don't worry about them. They're bullies. They don't get it.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Hang out with the punk kids and then met two or three kids who were like, we're going to see the Stranglers. Stranglers seventy eight, Glasgow Apollo. The week before went to see Nazareth.

• 19:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Because we're all, I mean, it didn't matter.

• 19:21Rick Rubin?

  It was crossover.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  It was a crossover thing, like if you like AC, if you like Bon Scott, if you like, if you like AC/DC and punk, that was fine.

• 19:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  There wasn't that cultural apartheid that MTV brought in in the eighties, where it's like 120 Minutes, Headbangers Ball, your MTV Raps, they weren't segregating us. We could like anything we wanted. You could like Bob Marley.

• 19:41Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  It's totally cool.

• 19:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  It was all part of the same synergy. It's just music and culture. Then I was in.

• 19:49Rick Rubin?

  So Stranglers was the first punk rock gig?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  First show I went to was, first show I actually saw, saw, the first thing I ever saw was Pink Floyd, 1975, Hamilton, Ontario, June 28th, I think it was. My brother and I went down to the stadium. It was supposed to sell 25,000 tickets. They sold 50. The place was rammed. The way the stadium was built was like a CFL stadium. There's a whole section you could see through into the stage. So we went down to collect cans and bottles. We thought it'd be a good opportunity to make some money.

• 20:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  So we got bin bags, garbage bags, collecting cans and bottles. I remember looking through and seeing the airplane crash into the stage and shining a crazy diamond, and they hadn't even released Wish You Were Here yet. At 13 years old, and that was a lightning bolt. It's like, what is this energy?

• 20:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  I remember going home on the bus, just, I couldn't even speak about it. I didn't know what to say about it. Just had this deep knowing that I wanted to be in there with those kids, having that experience, that communion. And then that was it.

• 20:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Pink Floyd's a good first whiff.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  That was the first whiff.

• 21:00Rick Rubin?

  It's a good one.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  That was a whiff.

• 21:02Rick Rubin?

  It's a good one.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  That was the first time I heard electric amplified music. Yeah. And it was mind numbing. I could still, I can play it in my head. I can play the tape. I can play the visual and the audio in my head and access the feeling of what it went through, all the chakras. You know, because it activated everything. Being a teenage boy, just coming of age, so everything was activated. Then it was about the rest of the life, getting in alignment, because there's a lot of trauma in there as well. Trauma from family, post-war.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Father went through the streets when they were being bombed by the German. The second most heavily bombed city in Britain, besides London, was actually Merseyside. And a lot hit where my father lived in Birkenhead, because all the shipyards were there. So he was telling me stories about running through the streets, the bombs falling. Because I didn't know about PTSD until later, when I had to face that in my own life. But he was gone by then. He passed when he was fifty-eight. You know, and that was kind of like when the cult was empty, twenty-seven years old. I didn't want anything to do with it. I was like, no, I'm out. I'm out. They were like, OK, there's the road.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  It's not paved. It's going to get dark. I was like, I want that. That was the journey. Yeah, post-electric, which was where my heart was, you know, in that room with us. Kids, we were like Dickensian kids, scavenging for pizza, grilled cheese, and any bit of cultural information that we could get, we would share it. I remember you introduced me to Hello Cool J in the street, outside a Revolution Cafe. I was nineteen years old, with a Kangol hat on and everything. I was like, he looked amazing. And what a frequency, it's such a vibration around this guy. I was like, he is... What's his music about?

• 23:02Speaker 01

  You know, and going deep into that, or going deep into the Beasties, or I loved Africa Van Barta. McLaren brought that to us.

• 23:10Rick Rubin?

  I remember we would watch videos in the studio of all kinds of just cool old rock stuff. We watched Slayer, I remember, because I was just about to start working with them. We watched a lot of cool stuff. I remember it was a really fun experience.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  I don't know how we got it made, the record.

• 23:29Rick Rubin?

  We weren't really loud. I don't know if you know, but really originally, the plan was I was going to remix two songs.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 23:37Rick Rubin?

  And then when we went to remix them, I realized if we were to strip it down and get to the essence of it, it wasn't recorded in a way where you could do that, because it was so layered in the way it was formed. You couldn't get to the essence. The essence was this produced thing. And if we wanted to get to the raw thing, the only way to do that would be to play it. So we played it and we did the two. And then they sounded good and then we said, let's just keep doing it and we did. But no one really gave us permission to do that. There was no record company that approved that happening.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Oh, no, they did not. We did not have any approval.

• 24:19Rick Rubin?

  But it just happened.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Because when we actually called them and told them what we've been doing for several weeks, they just about lost their wigs.

• 24:26Rick Rubin?

  Wow, I didn't know that.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  They went, I said, whoa, whoa, wait, whoa, whoa, whoa. I think Ian and Alan came over, Ian, Grant and Alan, they both came over to listen.

• 24:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  And we explained to them what we'd been doing.

• 24:37Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Said, we want to hear the finished product. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. Sit down.

• 24:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Just give us a sec.

• 24:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  And we played, Andy put it on. Played it back to them and they're like, oh. Oh. Wow. That is a scene change.

• 24:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Because nobody had done that.

• 25:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  I mean, you were definitely encouraging it.

• 25:04Rick Rubin?

  For sure. For sure.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  You were quite naughty.

• 25:08Rick Rubin?

  I believed. I'm a true believer, you know, it's like, I, I, I speak from the heart and I mean it. It's not a.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. It was like, it was perfect for me because I was like, uh huh.

• 25:22Rick Rubin?

  You were.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Let's go, let's go.

• 25:25Rick Rubin?

  You definitely saw what was possible.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  I saw you and your world and the city and everything and what you were sharing with us. It was like, oh, this is tribe.

• 25:35Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  This is the way.

• 25:37Rick Rubin?

  And then I remember you had your friend Haggis come join us and he was really fun to be around.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Well, Haggis was interesting in the sense that he played with Zodiac Mindwalk, Mark Manning, who was a friend.

• 25:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  And all of a sudden, Steven, Haggis, Steven Harris is hanging out.

• 25:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  I think Billy had been chatting with him. Kind of came through Billy. I didn't really know, he was like, I'm in New York, come hanging out. And I'm like, cool. And he come and hang out and I'm thinking, I remember when George would sit there and go, cool, cool. It was cool. I don't think we'd get to dope until we met Matt, Matt Dyke. Yeah. But he comes in the mix, kid chaos from Zodiac. And the story he told me was that he'd left the band or had been kicked out of the band. And I was like, because it kind of felt like a weird thing with some of these, you know, cardinal rule is you don't mess with other people's relationships amongst gentlemen. So I kind of felt a little bit awkward, but I loved him and he was a great dude.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  I really enjoyed his energy and he was into what we were into. But then I got a phone call in the middle of the night, like four or five in the morning from Mark from Zodiac. He's like, what are you doing? You're trying to break up my band. I was like, no, bro, he's, he's told us he's not with you anymore. And I was like, oh no, this is awkward. Yeah. And then I think we're drinking quite heavily a lot. I know I was. Yeah. I used to roll in drunk. So I'll drink wine coolers because they were a little bit lighter. But then I'd drink six pack of wine coolers and come in the studio and get going. And a couple of slices of pizza and we were leather trousers, let's go.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Music always sounded better when pizza arrived, I remember. Yeah, and it was interesting how all of a sudden, there's a lot of visitors came around about pizza time, dinner time. All of a sudden, like all these people from like, from Def Jam or whatever would pop by. Friends would pop by. George would pop by. Yeah. You know, Mr. Rick would pop by. And Mr. Rick? Yeah, of course. Oh, he was. Incredible. I don't remember him coming to the studio, but that's amazing that he did. They were all around. Amazing. Everybody, I mean, the Beasties, I mean, they would come for free pizza. Yeah. And walk in the studio one day and they're on the gear, bashing, it's like out. You know, because they were very naughty boys.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  I remember going out with them and throwing eggs at people every night. We all went out to the MTV New Year's Ball. It was like, I had an American Express card, I remember. We were like, we were thinking about it. We were like, working that day. We were working New Year's Eve.

• 28:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I remember that.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  And it was like.

• 28:24Rick Rubin?

  I remember thinking, why would anybody want to take off on either New Year's Eve or Christmas? Like, we get to go in the studio and make music. What could be better than this? It really felt like a celebration, what we were doing.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  I don't think we wanted it to end. We were having such a good time. Because there was no adults in the room.

• 28:40Rick Rubin?

  None.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Telling us what to do.

• 28:42Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  There was no A and R guy.

• 28:43Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Oh, but believe me, after that record, when we did Sonic Temple, there was A and R guys swatting around, hovering, whispering. Took me a minute to work out that they weren't my friends.

• 28:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. That was one of the great things about you guys coming from the UK to make the record, is that you just came and we got to do our thing. I remember someone from Warner Brothers came to visit and he was cool. Do you remember Jeff Fenster came to visit? And I think Stephen Baker might have come to visit.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Steve Baker was a massive ally.

• 29:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Since day one, he was incredibly important. So was Jeff Haroff.

• 29:17Rick Rubin?

  Great guy, Jeff Haroff as well.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  I mean, they were, they loved music.

• 29:25Rick Rubin?

  How did the cover come about? I love the cover. I don't know the story of the cover.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  I think the cover came about from a couple of things. One was like my obsession with San Francisco, 60s, San Francisco and what was happening there. Because Bill Graham was an actual mentor to me. We played, we reopened the film West, After the Love Album. So it might have been 86.

• 29:45Rick Rubin?

  I didn't know that.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  The Divinyls opening for us. And that's when I first met Bill Graham.

• 29:49Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  And then Bill Graham was like, we're in it. It's the first time, well, it wasn't the first time in the hate because we went there in 84. But I was obsessed with what happened at Monterey Pop Festival.

• 29:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  You know, seeing those images of Brian Jones with Nico and Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin and. You know, Bill Graham, Jim Marshall, he introduced me to Jim Marshall photographer. Yeah. So I was obsessed with it. I was obsessed with all the psychedelic art. Malsin Kelly, Rick Griffin, and I was kind of scribbling around. And did some kind of vaguely ersatz version of of his font. Which the art director that came in was Storm Thorgensen. The man that designed Dark Side of the Moon. Yeah. You know, so Storm comes in and he's like, and there was Aubrey Powell, but at that point Storm was off. He'd broken off from hypnosis.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  So somehow, I think through the label, not Beggars Banquet, but maybe through the Americans. I'm not quite sure how the relationship came about, but I had this vague idea of a psychedelic cover. And so it was a collaboration with Storm Thorgensen. And then Rick Griffin saw the font, he's like, hey, that's my style. And we started talking, he goes, I love you guys, can I do something? So he did the wildflower sleeve. Amazing. That was Rick Griffin did that. Amazing. That was his font. Yeah. That wasn't even a fake Rick Griffin font. It was real Rick Griffin. That was real Rick Griffin. That was just a love affair with San Francisco and everything that went with it. From Timothy Leary to Ginsberg to, I mean, Pigpen. You name it, George Harrison walking down H Street.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  I mean, there was so much packed in. From the like, Alan Watts comes from England as an Anglican priest convert into Zen Buddhism. He becomes the guru of the Beats, Kerouac, Ginsberg. He's the man. He's from Leatherhead. Strangely, near Chiselhurst caves where Jimi Hendrix played, there were so many ley lines connecting. And I could just feel the frequency. And that was, the cover kind of came out of that. Your love of.

• 32:04Rick Rubin?

  The lore, the history, the music, the people, the looks, the smells of it all.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:10Rick Rubin?

  Is why you've always been able to embody it. It's like through osmosis. Do you know what I'm saying?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:18Rick Rubin?

  It's like you've dedicated yourself to it like a student. And I think that's what makes the best things. It was never work. It was never a job. It was never a means to an end. You were practicing a devotional act.

• 32:33Rick Rubin?

  In participating in this thing you love so much.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, God speaks through the airwaves.

• 32:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  You know, the goddess, the divine mystery came to me through the airwaves. And that was my connection to source, other, not tactile, impermanence. It all came through the musical frequency. Which according to the Big Bang theorists, quantum level, the Big Bang is B flat. And it's still frequency still going. So musicians are tapped, the real intuitive ones, the emotionally intelligent ones are tapped into that. And they're just gonna do it, whatever. If they're playing to their cat, doesn't matter. The numbers don't matter. The accolades don't matter.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  It's this act, devotional act, as you say. And it doesn't befuddle me. I just listen, listen with the heart.

• 33:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Listen with an open heart and pick a bone. Give you a vibration. It's not like coming out here is like a bomb going off for me. Silence.

• 33:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  A bomb of silence and the ocean.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  In the rearview mirrors, I'm pulling up and then I'm thinking about it. I'm going, wait a minute, I'm going to see Rick. I haven't seen him for decades. This is somebody I love dearly.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  And I'm looking at where you are, Shangri-La, Dylan, the bus. The ocean's in the rearview mirror. I'm going, wait a minute. What is this oasis? Because it does have the same frequency as the Osho Ashram.

• 34:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  In Pune or the Potla Palace in Tibet.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Why is that? The same frequency is present within. Perhaps it's something to do with I'm now in tune. The environment allows me to tune my chakras, tune my vibrational frequencies and drop in.

• 34:32Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Drop into it.

• 34:34Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Make sure you've got lead in your boots, though.

• 34:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Because you can get all dreamy and caught up in it. And it's like, you know, when I walked in here, I was like, hmm, the aesthetic, it's very austere. Yoko Ono is probably lurking somewhere. It feels very Lennon, White Room, Ono. I was almost going to wear a Plastic Ono band T-shirt today. I thought, I can't broadcast that. Because in the cult recently, I've been, which is a small part of my creative life, but in the tactile world, I've been obsessed, obsessing on Plastic Ono Band and Liverpool. Because I've gone back there and I don't know, it just kind of popped up, Lennon.

• 35:19Rick Rubin?

  When you went back, how different was it than what you remember from childhood?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Well, we went back. The last time we went back, we just did a show at Dumontford Hall, which is a student venue. I didn't really walk around the city. When I went back in the 90s, because I went there to make a record with a band called The Holy Barbarians, which was really an excuse to do the things I didn't get to do when I was an object or a racehorse in the stable of Warner Brothers on Beggar's Banquet and the industrial complex of being a, you know, an iconic singer and an iconic MTV. It dissolved into this product.

• 35:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  And I couldn't. I know that we had several attempts where we, you almost came in as a.

• 36:05Rick Rubin?

  I remember that.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Interventionist.

• 36:07Rick Rubin?

  I remember that's because I had a memory of us in Sound City together.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:12Rick Rubin?

  I remember we made Electric in New York.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 36:15Rick Rubin?

  At Electric Lady, I remember the experience like, what were we doing at Sound City? And I couldn't figure it out. But now I remember we recorded a song that was incredibly cool.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did The Witch.

• 36:25Rick Rubin?

  The Witch. Did you ever come out?

• 36:28Speaker 01

  The Witch did come out.

• 36:29Rick Rubin?

  Oh, great.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  In 93.

• 36:30Rick Rubin?

  That's good, so then we can hear it.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Well, The Witch, The Witch came out in 93. And The Witch was, to me, was like, this is the way.

• 36:35Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Can we listen to that now? Do you mind?

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 36:38Rick Rubin?

  I haven't heard it since then.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 36:40Rick Rubin?

  I'm really curious to see what it is.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  You're actually on it?

• 36:42Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Listen.

• 36:44Rick Rubin?

  You'll hear it. How can it be?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Your voice is on it.

• 36:47Rick Rubin?

  I really have no recollection of what it is, other than remembering it was really cool. Let's see.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Oh, it's filthy.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  That's you. Three, four.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  You're here, you're there. Now check that breakout.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  There's a break where I can hear your voice distinctly, but the way it was recorded was I did the demo in Toronto in 90. My father died in 1990. We were on tour, early 1990. But I was in Toronto, I think I did it like in a Christmas break in 89, off the Sonic Temple tour, and I went and we did like 63 shows with Metallica. We did 187 shows on that tour. I mean, we were burnt out. We were burnt out. I got sober on that tour, and my dad was dying of cancer, and I was like listening to this music coming out of, I remember Peter Hook taking me to the Factory.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  To see the rave cultures coming out, he says, you've got to check Peter Hook, the bass player from Bloody Joy Division. I'm only twenty six, twenty seven years old. And I'm watching this, I go, I feel ancient. This music's phenomenal and plus I loved hip hop. So, because we were playing N W A out to P A every night before we went on. That was the opening music. That was the walking music. That's what people heard. That's what I was telling them to play. So if you want to play rock, I'm like, no. This is, this is what's happening. So the bassline is of course from Echoes. It's Roger Waters. Really?

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Obsessed. Yeah. Live at Pompeii, when they're going.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  That's Roger Waters, the bassline. And I just wanted to sped it up. Gang, gang, gang, gang, gang, gang. I wanted that filthy. Gang, gang, gang. And he hits this.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  And I heard that in my head and I was like, somehow this goes with the rave culture and hip hop and the synergy of Floyd. And there was, a bomb went off in my head. Yeah. So I cut this track, it was originally called Northern Man. Northern Man, you got rhythm. Yeah. But you, when you got hold of it, you were working with Matt and you had a pile of breaks. I remember you going through that. We sat with twelve inches. It was at your house, near the chateau. And you were just going through it going that one, that one, that one. And you picked out the breaks for the samples. And then we just built it. You built it. And then we went in, we had the bassline. I think George might have actually played the bass. Sounds like it. George played the bass. Because I could play it, but I couldn't play as well as he could play it.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  And you cut the track and the counts of the changes is you counting, three, four. So we know what to do. Yeah, but then after we got this basic track. And Northern Man didn't fit. And we'd been offered this movie, Cool World. Oh yeah, that's what it was for. With Kim Basinger. It was a big movie. I couldn't remember why we did it. That's why, Cool World soundtrack. Yeah, Ralph Baschke. Yeah. We did Fritz the Cat and everything.

• 42:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  So it was a pretty dope film. And that was through, maybe like Jeff Air off at Warner Brothers. Like, let's do this track. And it was also a way of me attempting to maintain. It was like an intervention. You were, we were very close. We were like sharing our, you know, what we're into.

• 43:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  And I was like so excited. I'm like, it's gonna happen.

• 43:12Rick Rubin?

  We were making experimental music.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  We were, but Billy wasn't on it. He wasn't in the room when that was being happening. I think somebody said, it was probably she who said, we should get Billy to play on this. I'm like, yeah.

• 43:23Rick Rubin?

  And he did, no, he did.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Oh, you ripped it.

• 43:26Rick Rubin?

  It raises the whole vibration of it. It's great.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  That's his gift.

• 43:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  That's what he really is excellent at, is that.

• 43:35Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Like when he's off the leash, he's filthy. When he just lets himself go.

• 43:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  And I see that and I'm like, that is incredible. We still play that track in cult sets. And now.

• 43:48Rick Rubin?

  How's it sound live?

• 43:50Speaker 01

  It's a behemoth.

• 43:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  We rip.

• 43:53Rick Rubin?

  It's so groovy.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  It cuts through like a knife and you can see the audience are just swaying. They're in it. Everybody's in it. We're so in it.

• 44:06Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  It stands up and playing maracas on it.

• 44:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Still got a bit of stones in it.

• 44:10Rick Rubin?

  For sure, I hear that. I don't remember hearing that then, but I hear it now.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the film was massive. It came and went. It was released as a standalone single, maybe 12 inch. We had a white cover with a white pentagram on it. Done. Done. Done and dusted.

• 44:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  But there should have been a whole album around that.

• 44:33Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  And I was sort of saying to B at the time, I was like, this is it. Because that is done. This is done. The hair's coming off. This is finished. And it was great way it lasted. It was fun. Party's over. We're going here now.

• 44:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  And everybody was like, you're insane. We can't do this. And I just fought them tooth and nail. Just fought them. You know, I was trying to reintegrate our relationship.

• 44:57Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  And what our vision was, because at that point, there was a disturbance in the force.

• 45:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  We'd become a piece of property.

• 45:05Rick Rubin?

  There's a point in time in success when there's a feeling of it's not yours anymore and it's being controlled by someone else. And it might not even be business people. It might be some psychological thing to do with the audience, that the audience has certain expectations. And you can't upset that, when in reality, you really can.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Oh, no, we did. No, we upset them early.

• 45:31Rick Rubin?

  You can, and you can switch it up, but there is that feeling of it's a dangerous move.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  It wasn't the audience. It wasn't that. For me, it wasn't.

• 45:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  It wasn't that. It was that my partner was transfixed, like a deer in the headlights, by maybe the validation, I don't know, but caught up in the lifestyle and everything.

• 45:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  And I was still on the mission.

• 45:58Rick Rubin?

  This brings us back to, I remember, I think you flew into JFK, you came into the city, we met for the first time, and I remember the conversation was, we know what song is going to be the first single from the album, because it's the same chords as our last hit. And I said, well, if it has the same chords as your last hit, not only could it not be the first single, I don't think it can be on the album, because you did that.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 46:31Rick Rubin?

  So that's the difference in mentality. Whereas, there is a mentality in the music business of, it worked last time, let's just do it again.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Everybody was hypnotized by format, structure, architecture, like even the seven inch single, the format, artists would write to the format of a seven inch single.

• 46:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  That was already pre-programmed. Libra and Stroller, da, da, da, da, yeah, Richard, they were writing these, it was format, format, format. The tail was wagging the dog. It was unspoken. Some bands were breaking it, like the Germans with krautrock, like Popovoo and stuff like that.

• 47:09Rick Rubin?

  Or Stairway to Heaven for that matter.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely breaking the mould. Especially the bass player in the cult now is Charlie Jones, who's married to Carmen Plant. And he played with Plant and Page. So he brings a provenance as another empathetic. Like, we don't talk about rock, we talk about Alice Coltrane. He's such a gift to us. It's a completely different band than it was even five years ago. But I think format is a very interesting thing where unconsciously you're in format. You're in culture, the culture is responding to format.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  We is really driven by the advertisers, popular culture, controllers of culture, controls of advertising, Conde Nast, whomever it is, Vanguard, Viacom, you know? And somebody's getting paid, but we just are hypnotized and we go on front unless you have a eureka moment where you go, you're Sid Barrett. You're just wired differently.

• 48:15Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  You know, and you question it. And right now I'm doing exactly the same thing as I was when I was teeny tiny.

• 48:24Rick Rubin?

  Because you're you. I question it all the time because I'm me. It's like, it's just, it's our nature.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  It is our nature. It's our nature. It's like, you go, turn it over.

• 48:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  You smell this side of it.

• 48:37Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Mmm.

• 48:39Rick Rubin?

  That's good too.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  You know, whatever it is, however you get into it, right?

• 48:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  But I think a lot of it's just processing.

• 48:46Rick Rubin?

  I also like being surprised by it. You know, I like when it's not the same. I like that feeling of, it can't be different for the sake of being different, because that's not good. But when it's different and you love it.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:02Rick Rubin?

  That's really exciting.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:04Rick Rubin?

  That's my favorite.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  When you're leaning forward because you're not sure what's gonna happen next. Mm-hmm, it's the best feeling. Yeah, there's a lot of music out there right now that just surprises me. I wanna hear it for the first time, like, wait a minute. Did I hear that correctly? Yeah. Is this possible? Yeah. Now? Best feeling. Today? Best feeling. In this world, in this climate? Yeah. Occasionally come across a few nuggets, just as a fan of music. Yeah. But then I go like, I'm gonna do it my own anyway. Of course. So I have a mountain of, a mast, just, you know, I feel like a Henry Daja, just undiscovered Shambala. Sitting in my phone in multi-tracks that are in some storage space. Yeah.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Somewhere that I'm gonna pull out from my solo record I made in the desert with Chris Garson, ninety-six, ninety-seven. Right. I know there's good stuff in there. Yeah, of course. That we can rewire and. For sure. Brutalize and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unformat. Yeah. Which is my whole thing right now, I'm going, why don't we just take the entire catalog of everything we've ever done and put it through a shredder? See what that sounds like? Yeah. Or an AI program?

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Tell me about Southern Death Cult. What was the Southern Death Cult?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Well, Southern Death Cult. Is that your first band? Southern Death Cult was, well, actually, no. The very, very, very first time I stepped into a room with musicians with the intention of creating a band. Well, there was two. There was one called Send No Flowers in Liverpool. I think we had one or two rehearsals. And they actually went on to do something, released a single. Then I was in Belfast, I was a homeless kid, and I was living in a squat with these punks. And we had one song, I was reading The Island of Doctor Moreau by H.G. Wells. And there's this thing about vivisection, experimenting on animals. And there's a line in there, "Not to walk on all fours, are we not men?"

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Diva may have used it as well. And I saw that as a lyric, and I was like, ooh, that's interesting. And I just came up with drumbeat.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Not to walk on, oh, fools are we not, man?

• 51:21Speaker 01

  And that was a song.

• 51:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  And the other guys in the house had some terrible, like, four strings on a guitar. And we were called Children of Lost.

• 51:34Rick Rubin?

  Did you ever do a gig or never?

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Never. We played in the front room of a damp squat in Belfast in 1980, which was a pretty rough place. It wasn't something you wanted to be in a band. It was just that everybody was obsessed with music.

• 51:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  And there was always instruments around of some description. Then I ended up leaving Belfast and following Crass, the band Crass.

• 51:55Rick Rubin?

  I remember Crass.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Devotee of Crass. Followed them, stayed in Steve Ignorant's T P, went to the house.

• 52:00Rick Rubin?

  Did you really?

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:02Rick Rubin?

  Tell me what that scene was like. I don't know anything about them. All I know are the cool album jackets that unfolded into posters.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  They started in seventy seven and were...

• 52:12Rick Rubin?

  Where were they based?

• 52:13Speaker 01

  They were based in, I believe, Epping, which would be at the end of the Central Line. Dial House. They had this house that was an old phone exchange. Because back in the day, you didn't have satellites. You had buildings, like the A T and T building in New York, where the operators would connect you. So this was an old phone exchange that they'd converted, got hold of. It was a real mishmash of people. I think the drummer was a teacher. They've got an exhibit right now in New York as well.

• 52:48Rick Rubin?

  The Crass?

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, of Crass, his artwork and the visual and everything. G, I believe, worked for, she was a graphic designer. Steve Ignorant was a punk kid from, like, you know, London. And the other ones were like, you know, university dropouts and stuff like that. But they had this real vision, like, very Orwellian. They lived in a very situationistic, anarchistic, communal environment. And they were very set up, actually, similar to your, to Shangri-La. They... All wore utilitarian clothing, it was dyed black, everything was dyed black. They had banners which had the cross with the snake wrapped around them. And destroy power, not people, banners. And became devotee of them and the philosophy and followed them.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  Like the first album feeling was 5000. Opening it, looking at the graphics and going, this is phenomenal. This is, this is what Joe Strummer's saying. This is what Lyden is saying, but they're really living it. Yes. They had a commune, they grew their own food. It's the first time I tasted tempora.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Like, they opened my mind to so many things. I'm eating Japanese food in a garden, napping in the middle of summer. I visited them a couple of times there. Anyway, so through the Crass tour, as I was a homeless person, we went through a city called Bradford in north of England, near Leeds, which is considered to be the centre of the dark wave, Gothic. You know, there's so many bands that came out of that scene, out of that city, that area. Post-industrial, Manchester, Leeds, Huddersfield, Liverpool.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  I ended up getting offered a room in a house, £10 a week. And I had nowhere to live, so I just took them up. It's like moving to Kansas, really. So I'm moving to this house, there's a band playing in the basement of the house. They were rehearsing on a band called New Model Army's Gear. They had a basic PA, 100 watt PA, and they would use the PA and they had little amps, the beaten up amps. And a guitar player had a guitar that he'd made himself and he was an art student, it's Bradford Art School. Bass player was obsessed with Adam and the Ants. And the drummer, Hacknawas Karashi, brilliant tribal drummer. He loved things like Shalimar and disco, but he loved punk. And they had a band called Violation.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  The singer was, let's say, had lifestyle choices, you know, that didn't match up with these guys. They really wanted to go for it. I was living in the house, they saw me and they said, our singer's gone. Do you want to jump in? Do you want to try out for the band? I'm like, can you sing? I'm like, I don't know. So I went down to the basement. They said, let's try something. What do you know, like Sex Pistols, we did a Sex Pistols song. They're going like, wow, that sounds pretty good. Do you want to be in the band? It's almost spontaneous, was like, okay. And then the drummer's brother was a local promoter in the Leeds Bradford area. He was putting on bands like Anti-Pasty GBH, all these like oi punk bands, like post-post punk bands,

• 55:53Speaker 01

  post-anarcho, post... Because by this time, the Clash had become combat rock, they'd become something else. The Pistols were gone, the original McLaren Westwood scene, it all broken up. And so this is another generation of punk bands who really were disenfranchised working-class kids. And a local TV station, Yorkshire Television, was making a documentary on unemployed youth cultures. Like, kids were making art who were unemployed, like basically living like young scavengers. And the drummer's brother got a whiff of this and he said, "They're making a documentary. Do you guys want to be in it?" We're like, "What?" We had three songs. By this time, we were rehearsing above a reggae shop called Roots Records.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Our first real audience were Rastafarians. There was watchers play. So these Rastas watched us play, had these three songs, and we get offered to be this part of this TV documentary. And of course, that was like a spaceship had just landed. Somebody said, "Do you want to get on and go for a ride?" We're like, "Okay." It's like eighteen years old. And so we did this whole couple of days where they filmed us. They set up the first gig in a pub where they got like eighty kids in, punks. And you'd never done a gig before? Never walked on a stage. Wow. Well, actually, I've been in a school play, but never as a musician, not as a lead singer. Yeah. And we didn't have a name. And the TV station's like, "What's the name of the band?"

• 57:19Speaker 01

  So I was reading a book on Native American anthropology, and there's this one paragraph talking about the, I think it's the Hopewell Valley in Ohio, a certain group of Native Americans that had these serpent mounds that's still there. And I referred to them as the Southern Death Cult. Because they worshipped skulls and they didn't incorporate death into their spiritual view of the world. Death was a thing, which in the West, we tried to avoid at all costs. Tibetans, all day long, you know, death is part of it, impermanence. So that became the name of the band, Southern Death Cult. I picked it out and went, this is a great name.

• 57:56Rick Rubin?

  It is a great name.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  It's a great name. Sounds dope. And, you know, the government, the controls in the South, it was very good for a basic, you know, basic get in. But it just resonated with me. And that was our first gig. It was a film for television. Tapes are gone. I think I saw it once. And when it aired, they can't find the tapes, they're gone. But it did happen. And then the first gig we played was in-

• 58:20Rick Rubin?

  What was the experience like of seeing yourself on TV for the first time?

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Well, the experience of going on stage for the first time, the amount of adrenaline-

• 58:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  -is inexplicable.

• 58:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  I mean, it was like, I got hit by a car when I was a kid, which was a life-changing experience. Plus, I had some bad experiences with psychedelics. But this was something otherworldly, similar to the Pink Floyd experience at thirteen.

• 58:49Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  Similar lightning shock, went through the chakras. So there, this was Southern Death Cult. And then we did our first gig in an unemployed, anarcho commune, place called One in Twelve Club. Means one in twelve is unemployed. So we played this gig, we packed it out, one hundred and fifty people in a room. And that was it. We thought, we were like, wow, this is, what's the next thing? We did a couple of gigs in local area. We opened for Chelsea, it was our fourth gig, at a club in, it was a punk band from seventy-seven. One of the peripheral punk bands, but still Gene October was very important, James Stevenson on the guitar, kind of parallel to Generation X, came out London punk scene. We opened

• 59:33Speaker 01

  for them and they offered us a gig at the Marquee. Do you want to come to the Marquee? I opened for the Marquee in London, gig five.

• 59:40Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Got six songs. We're like, what? The Marquee in London. That is Mecca.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  It was a mythical place. Yeah. You'd never been there before. Not to Marquee, no. I'd been on the streets in London. Slept in King's Cross train station. Stayed in a squat with a load of punks in West Hampstead, but not, nothing like this. This was different. We had a purpose, we had a mission. So we got, we hired a van. We got snowed in Yorkshire. It was two hundred mile drive. The driver was called Neil and he was a hippie. We called him Neil the Hippie and he had a headband. Yeah. I got mine from Edward Curtis Pictures. The bandanas came from Edward Curtis Pictures of indigenous Apaches. Auspiciously, Dino Pridas, as you know very well, is part Characra Apache, now manages the cult.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  Anyway, we got out of the snowstorm, got to London, got there, grabbed a kebab in Soho, seedy Soho. Went into the Marquee, did a little sound check, got ready, which meant opening a plastic bag and changing our t-shirts. You know, ten cigarettes in a little packet.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  That's all we could afford, two cans of beer on the stage. There's thirty people there. I think Lemmy was actually on the fruit machines, play, because he was always in Soho on the gambling machines. Yeah. And then we had a friend who was living in London, he was running around the Bow Wow Wow crew. Like Westwood and Bow Wow Wow, he's fully dressed in pirate costume and he kept jumping on the stage, he'd pull out cables and laughing and this was our big moment in the Marquee in London and it was a total disaster. It was horrible. We were so miserable. And plus Gene October wouldn't give us the money, thirty-five pounds for the petrol money to go back to Bradford. We had to get it out of him. And I remember standing at the bar when Chelsea were on stage and I was drinking a half a lager.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  And this guy comes up to me and goes, hi, my name's Paul Boswell, I'm from this agency called The Agency or whatever it's called. I'm like, great. I said, what do you do? Do you do lights, sound? He said, I'm an agent. I book bands. I'm like, okay. Great. He said, he wrote his name, his number down a bit of paper, stuck it in my pocket, didn't think anything of it. We were inconsolable. We got in the van, drove back to Bradford that night. On the way back, just like Control, the film which illustrates Dean Curtis being an epileptic. It's the same kind of thing, one blanket in the back, our drummer's an epileptic. We had to pull over, he has an epileptic trauma. It was so heavy. And when we got back to Bradford, we were just like.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  The adrenaline was gone. We're now crashing. We're like, well, that was a complete and utter burnout. We're so unconsolable. And then the following week, there's a review in Sounds. It says, Chelsea, Southern Death Cult, Marquee London. First line says, I've seen the future, it's Southern Death Cult. And I'm like, oh, what?

• 1:02:40Rick Rubin?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  You're kidding me?

• 1:02:43Rick Rubin?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  So we ran around, we didn't have telephone. We, I think we had a payphone in our house. So we were payphoning each other, you know? And we go like, right, now we've got to get to work. So the drummer's brother again, Rab, comes in with, with Aki and he says, look, I've got the number of some of the agencies. You want to start calling them, see if there's any gigs, tours? We knew The Clash would pick up local support bands. And Aki was talking about The Clash. I think Pileion maybe have opened for The Clash. So we were calling these agencies and I got this one phone number. I didn't even take the phone number out of my pocket. Did Paul Boswell give them to me? So I called this agency and I called them and, and I'm payphone at home, I remember. And secretary picks up the phone, she's like, hi, who's this? I said, it's Ian, I'm from a band called Southern Death Cult. She goes, what band is?

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  So Southern Death Cult, she says, wait a minute. Okay, who gets on the phone? Hey, it's Paul. Don't you remember I met you at the Marquee? I'm like, oh, yeah, hi, Paul. He said, we've been trying to get hold of you guys. We've got five dates penciled in with Theatre of Hate. I'm like, what? You do what? What? Unbelievable, unbelievable. Oh, okay. And hung up the phone and I started calling everybody and going like, we're the Theatre of Hate tour. They've just been on Top of the Pops. We were like, minds blown. So that was it. Like gig six, seven, eight, nine was Theatre of Hate. Then we went into Bad House.

• 1:04:01Rick Rubin?

  It's also amazing.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Then we opened for The Clash.

• 1:04:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  And did all of that.

• 1:04:05Rick Rubin?

  What's amazing is the thing that seemed like.

• 1:04:10Rick Rubin?

  The thing that didn't work at all, the club at the marquee that you drove home miserable.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Oh, we were miserable.

• 1:04:17Rick Rubin?

  Was actually the turning point that started the whole thing. The thing that, again, in the moment, you couldn't see. It seemed like a terrible experience and that started the whole thing. It's amazing. We never know.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  You never know.

• 1:04:33Rick Rubin?

  We never know.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  You never know.

• 1:04:35Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  You have no idea.

• 1:04:37Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  That's why it's good to stay open.

• 1:04:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  It's all possibilities.

• 1:04:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  And if you're trying to hang your head on a certain nail, don't get stunned there.

• 1:04:46Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about opening for The Clash. Were The Clash a big deal for you personally?

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Personally, yeah, I loved The Clash. I saw them in seventy nine on the Sixteen Tons tour. And we got Sand and Easter, the day it came out, because I was living in Canada and missed the first two albums. Give 'em enough rope and Clash. But Sand and Easter came out, I remember getting that, obsessed with The Clash.

• 1:05:06Rick Rubin?

  And London Calling.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, London Calling. They were touring that, saw them in Glasgow, Apollo. Loved The Clash. I remember Mick Jones, they were doing White Riot. He didn't like playing it. Because of the connotations of the song, he thought was a little bit. He didn't like the politics of it. It threw this Les Paul up in the air. I remember it had one of those curly leads. All I can remember from the gig is this guitar going, throwing so high. And as it's coming down, he's in a white boiler suit, he just turned around and walked away from it. And he just went, smash. I was like, what? The whole audience was like, that's the most visceral memory I have of that concert. Is this guitar just going into shards. Anyway, for Combat Rock, the date that we got offered after making the phone calls was at Stoke Hanley, Victoria Hall.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  I was on the Combat Rock tour, which was essentially the last tour. And.

• 1:05:57Rick Rubin?

  And at that time, they were really a big band.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Oh, they're massive. But with the punks in the UK.

• 1:06:03Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  They'd gone to America.

• 1:06:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  And that was like, no, no.

• 1:06:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Because they were ours. But I didn't feel that way.

• 1:06:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Because I was a North American teenager, essentially. I understood it. They went for the who? Shea Stadium and everything. But when they came back with Tiger Stripes and. Such dope style, Engineers Boots, and I mean, they looked phenomenal. We were all trying to copy this style. And if you look at early Southern Death Cult, you'll see Billy in full tiger's throat.

• 1:06:32Rick Rubin?

  When did it change from Southern Death Cult to Death Cult?

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  It changed, well, basically what happened was with Southern Death Cult, it was happening too quickly. Within the space of eleven, twelve months, we were getting offers from EMI. We did demos for EMI. Beggars Bank was sniffing around, and then came CBS Records. They said, hundred grand, bang, on the table. We want you guys. When that money came on the table, I looked it out and went, hmm. We're trying to warn a chapel for publishing. Give us five hundred pounds each.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Scandalous. But there was a lot of heat in the band. There was a lot of heat on the band. I mean, we did the Tube, Malcolm McLaren was on it, and his comment was, that boy is a sexual threat.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  I go, as a kid, I didn't know what that meant, but as I got older, I was like, Malcolm McLaren said that?

• 1:07:23Rick Rubin?

  Pretty good.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Oh, because I'm obsessing on Malcolm McLaren as well right now. I'm reading his biography by Paul Gorman, which is staggering. The man was brilliant, brilliant, genius. But when that heat started to come on the band, my natural instinct was to pivot away from it because it felt like a trap, didn't feel authentic. What they wanted was our youth, what they wanted was our vitality, and that we were the band of the moment. It's the CBS. They were all looking for the next Pistols. They were looking for, they all wanted that phenomenal thing. And Southern Death Cult at the time was on the front cover of the NME without even having a record out.

• 1:08:03Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  Shot by Anton Corbin in eighty-two.

• 1:08:06Rick Rubin?

  Incredible.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  So that was the heat on the band. And I just said, you know what? I can't do it. I just can't do it. And I remember them pleading with me, like, please don't leave. And I was like... Plus, I remember I had a song, it wasn't called Spirit Walk at the time, but it was like...

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  And I had this stand, they didn't want to play it. I had written Moya and Flower in the Desert, two songs that we'd recorded. We never made an album.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  I was beginning to feel my own path and I'm just like, this doesn't feel like I should be staying here. This is gonna last 10 minutes. Cause it would corrupt us. We all had four different personalities pulling in 40. Had we had a Brian Epstein or had we had a George Martin come in the room? Or Rick Rubin come in the room? It may have been a very different story. We didn't have that patriarchal oak tree. We didn't have a guide. We didn't have somebody to like, okay, guys, that's the external experience. Let's get in your feet. Let's get in your place. Let's get grounded. Let's focus on getting the material together. Getting the creativity focusing, doing the work.

• 1:09:11Rick Rubin?

  So you felt like it was too rushed?

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  It felt rushed. It felt like all of a sudden people had their hands all over us and we were like, as people were not considered.

• 1:09:21Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  The external field that we were putting out there was what they wanted.

• 1:09:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  They wanted to mine us of our

• 1:09:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  nutrients. I've heard an American A and R guy talk about churn and burn.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  You know, overheard a conversation at dinners like, oh yeah, churn and burn. These kids coming through, we just churn and burn. I'm like, there's no churn and burn here because I'm, I'm out.

• 1:09:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  So I walked away from that. I didn't have a penny. I was still unemployed. Billy was working in a clothing shop. He got kicked out of Theory of Fate. But it was the only top player I'd met that I liked. And I thought he had something.

• 1:10:00Rick Rubin?

  Why was he kicked out?

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Cause he was from Manchester probably and they were from the South. So it was like a cultural divide.

• 1:10:06Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Plus Billy's very pragmatic and you know, the lead singer was really the poet and the visionary and his manager was a great facilitator. Terry Razor was a poet as well. I don't think Billy just fit their profile. But anyway, he was working in a clothing store in London. I knew Billy, knew where he worked. Got a coach, left Bradford, had a plastic bag, T-shirt, cigarettes, can of beer, some lyrics. Turned up in a clothing shop, said, hey. I walk in and he goes, hey, what's up? I said, I left band. He said, you did what? I said, I left the band. Do you wanna start a band? You're insane.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  You've done what? You left that? I said, yeah. So the next thing I'm sleeping on is couch in Brixton. That's the beginning of Death Cult. Because I came up and named some Death Cult, I just went. Because I wanted to distinguish two different bands. So we wrote Death Cult.

• 1:10:56Rick Rubin?

  And it was different.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  It was very different. It was very different. Our first drummer, Raymond Taylor Smith, his father was the diplomat from Sierra Leone. So he was an African kid to play amazing tribal beats. It's a band called Ritual. We went to see this band called Ritual and Jamie Stewart was playing rhythm guitar in the band. And I said to Billy, I said, that drummer is unbelievable. Rhythm guitar player is really good as well. Let's get, try and get these guys. I remember I was drunk, I was lying upside down on a stairs. It's like an old theater and I was like in the aisle, lying upside down, watching them going, this is incredible. We've got to do a band with these guys. So Raymond came in, we just grabbed him and said, we got a record deal, we're doing this,

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  they left their band straight away. No loyalty at all. There's no loyalty.

• 1:11:52Rick Rubin?

  How would you describe the difference in the energy in you between Southern Death Cult and Death Cult?

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Well, I'm becoming, I was becoming a veteran of lived experience. So I kind of knew, beginning to understand how it all worked. Like they don't want you, they want it. Whatever you're putting out, they, meaning the record company people, the people that you think are your friends, the replacement patriarchs and matriarchs, they want your essence, they want your soul. I signed my publishing contract in blood. I was that dramatic a kid, I was like slashed my hand.

• 1:12:34Rick Rubin?

  Did you really? That's amazing.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was.

• 1:12:36Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  So into rancidism, you know?

• 1:12:39Rick Rubin?

  Committed.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Committed.

• 1:12:40Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  To the, I'm still committed.

• 1:12:42Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Still on that contract.

• 1:12:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  Also, the times were pretty oppressive. And Death Cult was, it's like me and Billy against the world.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  And now we really had to pull it together.

• 1:12:56Rick Rubin?

  So tell me about the scene at that time. What would have been the bands that you might have gone to see in that point in time?

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Well, I remember going to see, when I first stayed with Billy, we went to Ziggy Pop. It was in the venue in London, near Victoria train station, it was Ziggy Pop. We go to Lyceum on Sundays, we see things like Johnny Thunders. You could still access, but I was trying to go and see people like, you know, Johnny Hooker or Jerry Lee Lewis.

• 1:13:20Rick Rubin?

  But what was actually happening?

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  What was happening?

• 1:13:23Rick Rubin?

  What were the up and coming, exciting?

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  It was post punk, positive punk. Other bands around at the time, Sister Mercy, The Cure were massive, The Banshees were massive.

• 1:13:34Rick Rubin?

  So Goth.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Goth, although I prefer the term dark wave. When you came to America, they called it death rock and I was like, oh, that's cool. It sounded way cooler than Goth. But now Goth's actually.

• 1:13:47Rick Rubin?

  cooled again.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. We would talk about the dark wave and the shadow and because that permeates the entire culture.

• 1:13:54Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Go look at America's top 20 podcasts, murder, murder, murder, murder, entertainment, murder. Matricide, da, da, da, da, da. It's like, what is this? We live in the shadow, you know? So much so that I resurrected Death Cult last year for one show at the Ace.

• 1:14:14Rick Rubin?

  Great.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Cause I had to reboot the whole thing. I'm gonna reboot the whole thing.

• 1:14:18Rick Rubin?

  Great.

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  Shred it.

• 1:14:19Rick Rubin?

  Great.

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  Death Cult.

• 1:14:20Rick Rubin?

  Good experience?

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  Oh, it was outrageous.

• 1:14:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:23Speaker 01

  It was outrageous.

• 1:14:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  We did 10 shows in the UK, 11 shows in the UK, blew them out. It was almost like much needed milk, sustenance.

• 1:14:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:32Speaker 01

  So much so that we're being asked to do Death Cult now.

• 1:14:35Rick Rubin?

  Great.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Because it speaks to the moment, speaks to the shadow, it speaks to the moment. But Death Cult was, um, our first gig was in Oslo. We decided to play in Europe first, so we'd get it together. Cause again, we only had like six, eight songs, some Southern Death Cult songs, some new songs that we'd written. We played Oslo, Berlin, Amsterdam, Paradiso and Paris. Les Bandes Ousches, which is where Jor division played, was mythical. And then came back to the UK and did a tour. The reviewers that came in was like, you had sounds, Melody Maker and the Enemy was the bible. And that's what everybody looked at. Because the journalists were way more integrated into the audience and music fans like people like Paul Morley and Charles Murray and, you know, the great writers.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  People were like, eh, looks great, but eh, not really feeling it. So we all of a sudden like back to earth again. Like, oh, I went from Some Death Cult on the pinnacle of CBS and all of that, next Pistols, McLaren, Blessing, to back down to we're in the grinder again. So we've got a lot to prove and we went away and started thinking about being songwriters. Like that was a thing now. Like, oh, we've got to write some songs, got to start working through processes, start reading more books, going to more galleries. Inspiration. Inspiration. The travel was great. Yeah. But it naturally found its way.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  We made an EP, we got that together, Death Cult, and we made a song called Godzoo. So the lyrics were evolving, my identity was evolving. I felt like I was evolving and as I was evolving, Billy was evolving because he was originally a rhythm guitar player and I kept nudging him going like Jimmy Page, you know, like lead. Play lead. Go play lead, go play some blues. I was pushing that on him because to me it was like a foil. The guitar player in Some Death Cult, I couldn't really influence, but with Billy, I basically took his record collection, it was at the back of his record collection, there's things like Free, Zeppelin, you know, like lead players and poured it to the front of his

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  record collection and said, it's okay to like Public Image and Led Zeppelin, this is the way. Yeah. We can do whatever we want. Yeah. And I had this vision of, if you look at some early Cult from eighty-four, Dream Time Live, they had a song called Bone Bag, which actually has a solo in it, blues solo. And you can see me going to, you can actually see me looking at him going like, ow, ow. So how? And he's like stepping up to the plate because once you step over that threshold, you gotta let it go, man. And he did. And it was mesmerizing. We're not in the pantheon of, you know, all the things I was obsessed with.

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  We were looking at it, maybe with binoculars from a distance, but I could see it. I was like, we've got to get to this mountain. Yeah. We've got to get to this mountain because when you look at early Zeppelin or you look at early Blue Cheer or MC5 or what they had was raw, primal savagery. They found the animal. And it was all through emotional intelligence. You know, and I mean, like the MC5 were heavily into progressive jazz and they incorporated all of that. And it was amazing because as we came to America, people like Rob Tyner would start coming to our shows. From the Five, you know? So cool. We played his way because, yeah, there was so much information coming through. And I was trying to get in

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  against the culture at the time. Because even Robert Plant was quoted in the, when the music papers saying, Asprey wears a Led Zeppelin T-shirt, now it's all of this. It exists somewhere, that quote. Actually, Robert brought me on stage when he did his solo tour in eighty-nine. Charlie was playing bass.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  And he said, I'm gonna do a Doors song. I think it was Break On Through. And he always adores obsessive as well, so. Was he? I didn't know that. Well, he was actually regaled the story of being on a flight, Zeppelin on tour in America and some dude up the front making a bit of a noise, bit of racket. Morrison. Amazing. Led Zeppelin and the Doors on the same flight. Incredible. It happened. Yeah. Kids.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  I'd love to see that. Me too. I would have loved to have been on that flight, but think about it. Yeah. That's Robert Plant as a young man, as a human, flesh and bones, just like me and you. That was his path. Same as Jim Morrison. Same as Bowie, same as all of them. Same as all the greats. Miles Davis. Nina Simone. Human beings. Yeah. Letting it come through them.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  Some had teachings, some had technical abilities, others did not. They just did it intuitively. I guess environment played into a lot of it as well. Some of them dreamt about it and it happened. They wanted to be successful entertainers, whatever. Because I've never considered since day one ever being an entertainer.

• 1:19:49Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  Something else.

• 1:19:50Rick Rubin?

  It's a different thing.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  It's a way different thing. Ride the lightning.

• 1:19:53Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Dionysus.

• 1:19:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  All of that. Yes, actually believe in it. But it's not for younger viewers. That's why the graveyards are full.

• 1:20:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  Of early ones that burn out so young.

• 1:20:09Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, it's dangerous work.

• 1:20:10Speaker 01

  It's dangerous work. If you stand close to lightning, you're gonna get, you're gonna get hit.

• 1:20:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  And believe me, I've been hit many times. You know, it's a miracle I'm sitting here with you.

• 1:20:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  It's actually perfect I'm sitting with you talking about these things.

• 1:20:23Rick Rubin?

  How do you think the different art forms influenced music? Whether it be film, books, painting?

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  This is my favorite. It's all interconnected. Everything is connected. That's my drug of choice, art. Special visual art. Like you've got two hours before a show in Madrid. Where am I going? Hmm, Renaissance here, Guernica, bang, plugged in, wow. Or the black paintings, Goya, Prado, hit it, Velazquez, bang. Just sucking it in. You know, Rothko, first time I saw a real Rothko. I was, I wept. It ripped through me. That guy, when he killed himself. He didn't just commit suicide, he slashed himself to the bone. Wow.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  It's in the work.

• 1:21:19Rick Rubin?

  You see the paintings get darker and darker.

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  Darker and darker and darker. And he was part of the pogroms in, they left Russia. He came to Portland, Oregon, you know? When it was all the anti Semitic stuff happening in, in the Russian Revolution, the family moved to Portland. And that was part of his, the rectangles in the painting with the, the graves that were dug. You think about the process to get to that. Cause if you look at some of his figurative stuff before that, and then he started flipping to colors and visceral elements of color. How color can impact the emotional field.

• 1:21:56Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  How he arrived at that through his own process, internal process. He's one of probably the biggest gifts that we've ever had in the 20th century. Rothko, Van Gogh, of course. You know, Van Gogh's painting Starry, Starry Nights in the asylum with no windows.

• 1:22:13Rick Rubin?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  There was no windows in the room when he painted that. It was in his head. Staggering. How is that possible? I just think of Alice in Wonderland, you know? Drink this, taste that, do this, don't open that door. Don't look at this note. Of course we do. And then we find out. Curiosity kills a cat. It's the Buddha field. Art, film, impacts. If you're open to it, like I saw Apocalypse Now when it came out. Had a bottle of wine. And when the end came on, transformative.

• 1:22:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, it's like it was written for that movie. It's what it felt like in the movie.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  It felt like it was written for me in that moment in my life.

• 1:22:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:00Speaker 01

  You know? It was an awakening.

• 1:23:03Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  The Technicolor. Now to see Coppola talk about cinema now, after he's made Magropolis.

• 1:23:09Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  He's scorching what he's saying as a, as an elder. And this is something with the culture that we, maybe as elders. It's like, we're not just saying this because we're elders. We're saying this because lived experience, there is value in it. Let's flip the telescope around the right way. There's a lot of information in lived experience, elder creatives.

• 1:23:35Rick Rubin?

  I'd say the most.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37Rick Rubin?

  Although I would say the wisdom of lived experience and the naive energy of not knowing anything. That's where all the juice is.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  That's when they collide is very, very powerful.

• 1:23:53Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  You know, consider it now, crossing through our shoulders sixty. Consider that and how that time is limited from a Buddhist perspective. We know that we have limited time.

• 1:24:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  We don't know what the time of death is going to be or when we drop our bodies. So make every moment count. And when you're young, you don't have that.

• 1:24:16Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  You don't have that in your pocket.

• 1:24:18Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  So that's why you look at the elders and you go like, how did Bosco arrive at that? Ah, impermanence. He was accelerating the process. McLaren was accelerating the process. Lennon, whomever, all accelerating the processes. Even Dave Gilmour's come out recently said, I'm changing direction at seventy six or whatever.

• 1:24:40Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  Like, oh, great. Phenomenal. Can we change direction too? Absolutely. Sure you can. Do whatever you want.

• 1:24:48Rick Rubin?

  Whatever you want.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  Like, right now, I'm obsessed with Grant Parsons. Flying burrito. You may be sweet and nice. They don't keep you warm at night, cause I'm the one. Let you in. Oh, that song destroys me. Destroys me. Or his version of Wild Horses.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  Him and Emily Harris. All of that. But then I can flip over to The Dark Wave, Berlin.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  UFO 361, the transgressive, Ethel Kane, even parts of vultures, stars. "That night I'm playing in the stars, hold on." It's so desperate. And we live in desperate times. So be a channel, stay open, get grounded. Guru's is just a word. The access points. Take what you need, leave the rest behind.

• 1:25:51Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about your spiritual life.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  Oh, my spiritual life. Well, first of all, I don't distinguish that as something separate. I was blessed. My grandmother was in a spiritualist church on my father's side. The witchcraft laws were not repelled in Britain until 1951. 1951, that's not that long ago, really.

• 1:26:13Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  So a lot of this nature-based, traditional path was suppressed, that energy. And just as rock and roll was coming in, the witchcraft laws were repelled. And now you could practice openly the new spiritual forms. Plus, we have people like Alan Watts, the East was coming in, the Oriental teachings were coming in. And they crept in through, you know, when the Portuguese were going to the Far East. And they weren't just bringing back silk. They were bringing back Buddhism. The British going to India, bringing back esoteri and creeping into, you know, French symbolism and nature and blah, blah, blah, all of it.

• 1:26:54Rick Rubin?

  But also having the Scottish route, that has a wild mystical tradition.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:27:00Rick Rubin?

  Deep.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, deep, deep, deep. I mean, when we were kids, we used to go on the weekends, you go up to the Highlands. You go to the lochs and you'd be standing in nature and forests. And I remember walking through forests as a child.

• 1:27:14Rick Rubin?

  Would you hear stories of like fairies and elves or entities?

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  Entities. I mean, they pop up. When I was a child, I always believed there was little people that did the undergarden. They visit me in my dreams. As I get older, I go like, oh yeah, they did, they were there. That is definitely extraterrestrial is terrestrial.

• 1:27:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  It's just your psyche is able to go there.

• 1:27:40Rick Rubin?

  You're open enough to be able to see it.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, as one of my best friends ever said, your ego is not your amigo.

• 1:27:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Let it go.

• 1:27:48Rick Rubin?

  It's a great line.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Let go, let God, right?

• 1:27:50Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Let it come in. So all of that, the Buddha field, you know, you go to Tibet, you see those and they're just like, it's an everyday thing, you know? Oh, yeah. Monks fly. There are entities, and by the way, there is the Yeti. Be careful on the trail.

• 1:28:08Rick Rubin?

  Do you ever have a mystical experience?

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Always. Sitting here with you is a mystical experience. In this garden, you're kidding? There we are, Shangri-La, the lost city of Tibet. It was so enlightened, it just went into the ether.

• 1:28:23Rick Rubin?

  Tell me something you believe now that you didn't believe when you were young.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Oh, something I believe now that I didn't believe when I was young would be,

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  when I was young would be, that's not possible.

• 1:28:39Rick Rubin?

  You believed some things were impossible when you were young.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  So you reach.

• 1:28:43Rick Rubin?

  And now, anything's possible.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Anything's possible.

• 1:28:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  And that became more reinforced with each decade that I lived through.

• 1:28:53Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  To the point where you go like, you look at the camera and you go like, wait a minute. Woo, Christmas is coming, better get busy. You know, that kind of thing, so, um, yeah. I don't think I'm gonna win the men's singles at Wimbledon. I might take that one off or play for my favorite soccer team, whatever. But, um, in terms of creativity, it's all possible.

• 1:29:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  I've done many collaborations, you know, I had the opportunity to perform with Ray Manzarek and Robbie Krieger. Let's do that in music, so incredible. The film, I've written synopses. I'm now looking at having conversations with people about potentially making films, being in films, making art, I've always made art since I was a kid. I've got like, stashed away is the Ian that nobody's really seen. Because the Ian that nobody's really seen has been guarded by the dragon of it's not possible.

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  And that dragon, I've been fighting with for decades.

• 1:29:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  And now, auspiciously, being back in your presence,

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  you're like the guy going, aha! I found the key long ago, and I opened the door. And I went through it. And you can too. And look, I even wrote a book about it.

• 1:30:19Rick Rubin?

  Did you read the book, by the way?

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  I've been through the book. I've gone, yep, yep, yep. This is how I read your book. I'm like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

• 1:30:28Rick Rubin?

  Me too. That's the kind of book it is. Yep, it's a lot of yups.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  It's like, mm, mm, entry point, darkest point of the forest.

• 1:30:36Rick Rubin?

  Yep.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:30:37Rick Rubin?

  Yep.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  A good idea is one that happens. Okay.

• 1:30:41Rick Rubin?

  It's great.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  You know.

• 1:30:43Rick Rubin?

  Good idea is one that happens.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  Five percent inspiration, ninety-five percent perspiration. It's like, there's no avoiding the work.

• 1:30:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. It's true.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  You may get hit by lightning.

• 1:30:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:56Speaker 01

  A few times.

• 1:30:57Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  And by the way, a stylist and your team of thirty writers and producers, someday they're not gonna be around your ass. You have to do this yourself. So it depends which way you wanna go.

• 1:31:12Rick Rubin?

  Did you ever get into the sixties English folk scene at all? You liked Fairport Convention, Penangal.

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  I sniffed around it. I never dove in. I liked early Genesis.

• 1:31:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  Like when Peter Gabriel was in Genesis.

• 1:31:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Talking about, "Can you tell me where my country lies? Said the unicorn to his true love's eyes."

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  Talking about the melancholia of the Romantic period ending.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  And we're now going into the void of the shadow.

• 1:31:50Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  As a teenager, I was listening to that going like, oh, the unicorns are dying. But I had a Mojo interview the other day. They were trying to get into my head about what they thought I was, and I said, no. Let me correct you. What you're witnessing is a burning unicorn. You're witnessing trauma. You're witnessing an individual on fire. It's not entertainment. This is who I am.

• 1:32:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  No better than, no less than.

• 1:32:20Rick Rubin?

  It's real, yes.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  And if you can get close to the third rail. I mean, there's things I eventually will share through some medium.

• 1:32:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  When it's appropriate.

• 1:32:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, but it's not showbiz.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  It ain't show business.

• 1:32:35Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Bill Graham told me that. Bill Graham was incredible mentor to me. That's why we did Gathering of the Tribes. But it was very quickly taken into media into show business. And then Pepsi got hold of it and did Woodstock and very quickly, the tail wag the dog.

• 1:32:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  Which is one of my favorite analogies right now. I'm always saying that every day, it's like we can't let the tail wag the dog.

• 1:32:53Rick Rubin?

  Because it keeps happening.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  You know, we can't let the tail wag the dog. They're going, but look at this. It's got so much money and power. And I said, yes, but it's a false economy. But we can have esoteric capitalism. There's nothing wrong with building wealth, material wealth. If you put a seed back in the ground, you know? The bands that we've had opening for us, like the last, I'm curating. Like I find, like we just had a band called Patriarchy open for us, this couple. They're incredible.

• 1:33:24Rick Rubin?

  It's amazing that you got to do this over the course of your life. And you show up and you go up on stage and you do what you do.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  Oh, it's.

• 1:33:32Rick Rubin?

  And for all of us that we get to have these incredible lives based on putting ourselves into this thing that we love. It's really a miracle. The whole thing's a miracle.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  It is a miracle. We live in these times. These are the times we live in. We live down the road from JPL. We live in the seat of esoteria in the West.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  This area where I live, in Nosfilas, there's a Gadampa Buddhist temple, Tibetan Buddhist temple, five minutes from my house.

• 1:34:03Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  The oldest ashram in America, where Christopher Ishwood went, who wrote I Am a Camera, that influenced Bowie, that's why he went to Berlin. He translated the Bhagavad Gita into English. That's his ashram. He was friends with Aldous Huxley, who lived up the street as well. Theosophy, synagogues, Scientologists, which was connected to JPL through Jack Parsons, and all the esoteria is right there. And you think about Laurel Canyon.

• 1:34:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, and Manly P. Hall's right there.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  Manly P. Hall's right there, PRS.

• 1:34:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, we live in, right in it. I don't think I can live anywhere else. I'm not ready for Shangri-La just yet. This part of me is like, this is amazing. I would love to be in Shangri-La, but I know that I couldn't stay.

• 1:35:13Speaker 02

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