Below The Line - Casting Director (Abbott Elementary, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia)

Chris and Lizzie speak with the incredible, Emmy-winning Casting Director, Wendy O'Brien (Abbott Elementary, Dave, It's Always Sunny, Wyrm). Enjoy a conversation about how this role is different from what you might think, how it has changed in a post-Covid world, what it's like to work with Chris, and much more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Winterbauer?

  Life can be a lot sometimes. Traffic, taxes, and that dreaded text that just says, "Call me." Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off all your day-to-day problems and turn on the movies and shows you already love. From Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy to Dirty Dancing, from Alias to The X-Files. Channel Surf Live TV or browse the menu to find exactly what you're in the mood for. It's all free, no subscription, no credit card, no catch. The best things on TV are free, so escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 0:31Lizzie Bassett?

  12 celebrities, one Don, and cold, hard cash. From the producers of The Traitors comes The Mob, a new Hulu original series now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. In this unique new reality competition show hosted by the iconic Parker Posey, 12 celebrity contestants are about to become members of a powerful family. For two weeks in a lavish Italian villa, they'll shake down and hustle to win a share of up to $250,000. And every good mob needs a Don. Whoever they choose to lead them will have absolute power deciding who stays and who gets taken out, who makes money, and who walks away with nothing. In a game of power where loyalty and trust are the currency,

• 1:15Lizzie Bassett?

  will the most powerful reality contestant in TV history be able to keep the family happy? And if they're overthrown by the mob, who will step up and become the new Don? Let the games begin. Watch The Mob, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 1:35Chris Winterbauer?

  Hello, dear listeners. In honor of our forthcoming coverage of the himbo ensemble spectacle that is Predator, we've decided to unvault a casting conversation from behind our Patreon paywall. We hope that this chat with award-winning casting director Wendy O'Brien proves as informative to you guys as it did to us. One important note: This conversation was recorded during the 2023 writer's strike, which will be discussed. Without further ado, here is our interview with Wendy O'Brien.

• 2:14Chris Winterbauer?

  Hello and welcome back to another episode of Below the Line with What Went Wrong. It's me, one of your hosts, Chris Winterbauer, here as always with my co-host, Lizzie Bassett. But not only am I here with Lizzie Bassett, we are joined by the truly incredible Wendy O'Brien. Before I let her speak, I need to let her's credits speak for her. Wendy O'Brien is an Emmy Award-winning casting director, perhaps most recently known for her work casting Abbott Elementary and, a favorite of mine, Weird: The Al Yankovic Story. Her list of credits reads like a who's who of your favorite shows, including, but obviously not limited to, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Dave's Sons of Anarchy, and mine's MC.

• 2:59Chris Winterbauer?

  I have to mention those last two particularly for my mother-in-law, who is a ride-or-die fan, along with my first feature film, Worm, which is where I met Wendy. Wendy, thank you so much for being here. It is a real honor to get to talk to you about what a casting director does.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  Yay, it's my pleasure.

• 3:19Chris Winterbauer?

  So I'm gonna kick it over to Lizzie, and she's gonna get us started into figuring out what the hell you do to fix people's movies. Because you saved a lot of these, including my own, a lot of these projects with your amazing casting input.

• 3:33Lizzie Bassett?

  Well, I mean, no surprise that you saved Chris's project, that seems to go without saying. Okay, well, where we usually like to start is, in the simplest possible terms, as though you are explaining it to a three-year-old, or perhaps someone not in the business, like my father, what is the primary function of a casting director?

• 3:55Speaker 02

  We fill the roles. So we, any role that's written, that speaks. So there's also extras, casting directors, who do the extras and non-speaking. Me specifically, I do the speaking or a featured, a specifically featured role that you would need a little bit more skill or specifics. But anything that's been written, a character that's been written, that's my job to match the description.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Or not much the description with with the actors. Yeah.

• 4:36Chris Winterbauer?

  And this is a very specific incredibly important function on any film set, but it's not something that I think a lot of people think of. I think a lot of people who weren't in the I can speak for myself. When I was in the film business, I assumed the director or the producer just picked all the people that were going in the movie. Obviously, it's not that simple. What drew you to this career? Was this an intentional move? Did you first get into the industry in a different capacity and find your way to this more organically? What brought you from University of Washington all the way down to LA? Shout out, UW. I'm from Seattle, so calling it out.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Um, I, you know, I was a student athlete. So at some point, um, there was a reconciliation with that that is not going to be my future career. Um, and once I came up for air to, you know, start thinking ahead, um, I was actually talking with my dad and my dad,

• 5:38Speaker 02

  um, you know, so I don't know what I'm gonna do. I don't know. I'm an English major with creative writing emphasis. And he said, well, what about casting? Um, and this is, you know, he was in broadcasting for a while, but more recently a horse farm, you know, not somebody who I think would know anything about casting per se, but and I asked him, I was like, what is casting? He's like, you know, we see the credits and it says casting by and, um, he said, and I did really like acting when I was young, but everything was musicals and I can't sing. So it wasn't something I pursued, but I was always interested in it. Um, and he, I don't remember this, but he says that I always used to critique whatever

• 6:22Speaker 02

  film or TV show we were watching and say why people were wrong and miscast.

• 6:27Chris Winterbauer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  So he said, if you take English and the material and you take your intuition, which, you know, uh, he, he felt that I was very good at that and empathy and, and understanding actors and drama and you kind of put it together, that would be casting. And I was like, okay. So I did an internship my senior year.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  For steady, like for credit. And I, I loved it. It was a Northern Exposure was the show that I entered on.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  And yeah, and I loved it. I was like, this is.

• 7:03Lizzie Bassett?

  That's amazing. I feel like it's, I mean, no, no knock against parents. We love them. But I feel like it's kind of unusual to have your parent just like nail what you're gonna be.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  My dad is, he's amazing. Like he, I mean, the amount he reads and the amount he, he's just, he's incredibly intelligent, but he also is just very insightful. So, um, but the fact that he, he matched it so well. It was, it was pretty amazing. I mean, he really was amazing.

• 7:36Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah. I don't, no one in my family was like, have you considered a career in the film industry? You know, Kyle McLaughlin, we covered Dune recently, had come out of Seattle, kind of unexpectedly, like out of UW. Like I feel like there was a little bit of momentum out of Seattle at a, at a certain point. There was certainly the music scene coming out of Seattle. So you, there were creative people around, you know, at, at like UW, I'm sure while you were there.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if my memory serves me, um, the graduate drama program was ranked like top in the nation.

• 8:11Chris Winterbauer?

  Really, really highly ranked.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  And I did want to double major in drama as a freshman, but because we were traveling in the spring, and that's when a lot of the shows mounted, they said that I, I couldn't do both.

• 8:26Chris Winterbauer?

  And you were a rower, just so our audience can, like the hardest sport. So everybody understands.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  My hands are still awful.

• 8:36Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 8:37Chris Winterbauer?

  Our producer was a rower and he made me erg once in high school. I played tennis.

• 8:43Chris Winterbauer?

  Didn't go very well. Yeah. Yeah.

• 8:45Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah. He's made me erg before. Also did not go very well. Two strokes in, I was like, and I'm done.

• 8:52Chris Winterbauer?

  And, uh, just really quick shout out for the UW drama program. Also Joel McHale went there.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 8:57Chris Winterbauer?

  Obviously has had a very successful career.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  That's right. Jean Smart, I believe.

• 9:02Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, wow. I love her.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:04Lizzie Bassett?

  A lot of good Seattleites. So casting, obviously, is like an incredibly, incredibly crucial part of filmmaking. That, to Chris's point, not everybody, like, I think a lot of people outside of the industry do take for granted.

• 9:16Chris Winterbauer?

  Isn't it, Lizzie, like Scorsese says casting is 90%? Wendy, I'm sure you know that.

• 9:21Lizzie Bassett?

  I mean.

• 9:21Chris Winterbauer?

  Like 90% of any movie, and he's probably underselling it.

• 9:24Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah. Well, but it's also like, you know, I briefly studied acting and the audition process, obviously, can be painful, especially for the people that are not going to get the part. So how do you create an environment that's comfortable for everyone involved? And how do you draw out the best performances in a very stressful environment?

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Well, I think that's exactly it. You try, and I think a huge part of my job is to try and alleviate as much stress, as much sort of peripheral noise as you possibly can, which I think, you know, directors like Chris, I mean, that was definitely, I think we were both in sync on that. Chris was always disarming, you know, the actors that were coming in and putting people at ease. And I think, you know, going traditionally pre-Zoom, it was a huge part of going out into the waiting room, talking to people. Like, I'm a big hugger.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  So I hug everybody that comes in, but there's so much information that's transferred in that hug. You can tell if somebody's too stiff, if somebody's shaking, if somebody is just, you can tell if they're, if they're having a bad day. Sometimes people just melt in your arms and you can tell they're just not ready. There's so much information before you walk in that room. And then you can either decide, do I take a minute? Do I figure out what's going on? Do we have a conversation? Do I let somebody go ahead? Or do I just give them like a, let's do this, you know, a little psych up, like I'm with you. And

• 11:11Speaker 02

  it's just to connect. So you know, we're together, we're here, we're in step, we're going in and facing this, the two of us together. Because not every room is like Chris's room. You know, some rooms aren't the warmest. And it doesn't mean that they're bad. It's just different dynamics. You know, there's a lot of writers that that aren't necessarily as comfortable with people. Some more than others, you know. So I think it's it's our job to try and absorb as much of that tension. If it is a tense room, try and take it in. Sometimes I'm just a ding dong and I'm like distracting. So they don't even pay attention to the grumpy person on the couch.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Or, you know, it's each session is different. But but it's our job to be the sponge and suck up anything that doesn't help. If that makes sense.

• 12:07Lizzie Bassett?

  That's so. Yes, it does. And I like, I don't know why it never occurred to me before how much empathy is involved in your job. But it like so much. You you truly have to be so caring in in order to get what you need out of these people.

• 12:21Speaker 02

  Well, I think it, yeah, I think it helps and it's self serving, right? The the the more people are relaxed and the more they feel supported and prepared, the better they can do. And, you know, sometimes, I mean, we've cast the first person who's walked in a room before. And it's been they've nailed it and that's that. And sometimes we'll see more people, but but we knew that was the person out of the gate. And so, you know, the goal isn't to be casting the same role for 12 weeks. Like, the goal is to hone in on what the producer, director, writer, what they're looking for. So again, the more that we can let the unimportant parts of it so the work can be done,

• 13:06Speaker 02

  the more we can let that happen. And the quicker we can let that happen, the faster we can sort of really cast as well.

• 13:13Chris Winterbauer?

  And we're going to get into the Zoom, the how that's changed things. I have a specific anecdote anecdote I want to ask you about that involves an actor we've all know. But before we do that, could you actually just walk us through? Let's say for a television show or it could be an indie film like The Work We Did Together. Can you walk us through, just so people know, what's the process? You know, you take the script, break it down. Get submissions because it's an incredible amount of work and you have screened so many people before the director even enters the process.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 13:50Chris Winterbauer?

  So if you wouldn't mind, just the high level breakdown of those steps of your job, I think it's fascinating.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Sure. So we get the script.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Generally, especially if it's a film, you have a little time with the with the director to really, because in film, it's more the director who, you know, we're working with closely and the producers, but the director more so than television. And we break down the roles, get input on, you know, is the role as written? Is it really this age? Does it have to be a 40 year old white guy? Can it be, you know, something else? So we work with that, get that breakdown out. It gets released, so it can get released to actors, like Actors Access.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Generally gets released to all the agencies and managers in the city, in Toronto, New York, sometimes Australia, England. Like, it depends how how broad you can look. Some films don't have a budget to bring people in, but generally now it's a pretty far search. And then we get submissions and sometimes we could have up to 6,000, 7,000 submissions for a role. Sometimes a co-star role has 5,000 submissions. So you put a breakdown of 20 roles and, you know, 20 times 5,000 and it's a lot of submissions.

• 15:27Lizzie Bassett?

  How do you do that? Like, how do you begin to sift through that many? And when you say submissions, you're talking about self tapes, right?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  No, no, no, just, just basically your, the picture and resume being submitted. So in the olden days, you would get these, you know, those mail bins.

• 15:41Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  And the post office just dropped these mail bins and it would just be full, probably 20 of those. And we would open every envelope and then we'd sort. Put all the pictures in a roles and then we'd just be flipping through the pictures. So now it's the same concept, but it's, you know, digital. So you, you and breakdown services and casting networks, there's a few different places that you can use. Basically have the picture and resume and often the demo all digitally. You can log in and click, which is great because as you're going through submissions, you can actually, you like somebody's look, you can click and watch a one minute reel.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  So you can do a lot of digging before you even get in into the room, which is fantastic.

• 16:28Chris Winterbauer?

  So you get a hundred thousand up to, you know,

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Easy, yeah.

• 16:30Chris Winterbauer?

  submissions easily. And then, but you can't just hand a hundred thousand submissions over to directors and producers.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  No. So, yes, correct. So it's our job to whittle down, you know, however many people we're going to bring into a session. So I had one show that the, the producer and supervising director said would only let us bring four and four actors per role because they didn't want to,

• 17:00Chris Winterbauer?

  Wow.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  They didn't want to sit through auditions. They had a lot to do, so I had to narrow.

• 17:06Chris Winterbauer?

  Very few.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and that, that was frustrating because there's no wild card then, you know? It's like, here's what I know, what I'm pretty sure I want from the little bit of communication you've given me from your scout, but it doesn't give me room to try something that they didn't think of, you know, which is the joy of the job.

• 17:28Chris Winterbauer?

  Which is how we got Dan back at all in Worm was Wendy brought Dan in against type because I had only known him playing like a hard ass character in Veep, a potty mouth. And there was like the sensitive father and she's like, you should watch this other show that he's done and he's great. And then sure enough, like that became,

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Isn't he wonderful?

• 17:47Chris Winterbauer?

  And I didn't, Dan's great and I continue to have a relationship with him today.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Ah, he's wonderful.

• 17:52Chris Winterbauer?

  So you narrow it down, depending on the bandwidth of the director.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 17:56Chris Winterbauer?

  You're going to bring in a certain number of folks.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 17:58Chris Winterbauer?

  And then how much input do you either get or like to stake out in your ideal relationship? When you're, you know, how do you like this process to go with the director or with the showrunner, you know, or whoever you're working with in an ideal world in terms of, you know, how much input you're getting in this process?

• 18:18Speaker 02

  It's an interesting, yeah, it's a very good question. I I fluctuate because I actually kind of like not knowing anything. Because I like to come at it and to see if I nailed it in my own mind. And to not get too tainted in sort of of of what I'm looking for. But it only works if we're in the room together. You know, or like with self tapes, it does not work. Because that's part of the big problems with self tapes is there's no feedback. And so, you know, whereas when you're in the room.

• 18:53Chris Winterbauer?

  Meaning an actor can't adjust.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  Well, they can't adjust, or or I don't, I just get an email going saying, you know, I didn't respond to anybody. Or I kind of like so and so, but I don't know, let's see more. Well, I don't know what or why, or or I or I'm not picking up the ingredients as we go. So every time somebody walks out of the room, you know, like you, Chris, you would say, well, I love this, but it's not quite this. And that age doesn't quite work because they're too mature. Or, you know, if we're doing kids, there's there's that automatic feedback where you're like, got it, got it. And so you keep adjusting to hone in on what your vision is.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Because, you know, at the end of the day, it's it's, you know, you hope you're working with somebody with great taste. But sometimes you have to adjust your taste to their vision, right? And it may not be my taste. Might be bad taste, but it's my job to to figure out your taste. And to find the actors that I think fit that. And and whether it's mine or not, it's my job to solve it and figure out what yours is. Because it's all subjective, so it doesn't mean that you're right or I'm right. We're just solving it, so. So yeah, without the feedback and just the self tapes with it, it things seemed to me to take a lot longer to cast now.

• 20:20Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah, I bet. And like in a situation where you're not getting a ton of input or like you say you you like that to a certain degree when you're starting because you kind of just start with the script. How does that work? Like, what cues do you look for in the script to help you know, you know, which of those 5,000 headshots are gonna be right? Or do you sort of do people pop into your head as you're reading? Or is it is it more like, are there sort of signals you look for?

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Again, I think it's the raw ingredients. Like, sometimes it's the dialogue. You know, I just read this fantastic, you know, funny script and and right away, I could just start the voice and the and the type of humor. There's a few people that just jump out right away that would get it and that almost sort of have that intonation in the way that they deliver lines or the sarcasm. So I think I think there's a bunch of different sort of cues to look for. Also, when you're looking at leads, you know, it's different than a co-star, whereas you you don't want to just bring in the same people all the time. So

• 21:29Speaker 02

  you're always trying to add new people. But then you have also some people that you know can just nail it or are gonna be great on set. And so you, you know, you include that pool and then you're always trying to add to it and and get it to be a deeper and richer pool all the time. But for leads, I think there's a lot of people that just pop in right away that you love or that you're like, I think they can do it. Maybe they can do it. I'd like to try. You know, you've had them come in doing a lot of drama, but they're super funny. Going in and going out of the room, you're like, I gotta try this. Like, you don't know.

• 22:08Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, that's so cool. So you kind of get to, you have the opportunity to sort of open actors up to maybe things even they don't know that they can do.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's an actor that that is now mostly just does comedy, but I remember he used to come in for like a lot of drama and like heavy, heavy stuff and.

• 22:24Chris Winterbauer?

  Oh, come on. Can you share a name?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Well, I'm, this is my memory, but David Walton, like he would come in and, you know, and he was kind of a newbie to LA and, and I say this with love because I, I just adore him, but he would come in and, and but he would do these funny things, like he leaves his mouth open or he, he would just do odd things and he was so funny and charming.

• 22:48Lizzie Bassett?

  He is so funny.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  The handsome, you know.

• 22:51Chris Winterbauer?

  He's super handsome. That's the thing. Exactly.

• 22:53Lizzie Bassett?

  Distractingly handsome, yes.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, but then I was sitting, he's like, he's such a weirdo, you know, in the best way, in the way that I love. And he's so quirky, but, but we're Hollywood, we're trying to make him the leading man. His agents wanted him to be the leading man, which he can do. But then I was like, oh, he's just got to come in for comedy. Like, that's what I.

• 23:16Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  So it's fun when you do, it's part of why I love doing comedy and drama because you really, the pool just gets so much wider.

• 23:25Chris Winterbauer?

  Can we jump into the Zoom thing really quickly? Because it's so frustrating.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:31Chris Winterbauer?

  There's an actor you cast in my first movie, Lucas Gage, who obviously has gone on to do wonderful things. He's a writer in his own right.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:39Chris Winterbauer?

  He went viral during the pandemic for an audition. The director was basically caught.

• 23:45Lizzie Bassett?

  In the hot mic.

• 23:46Chris Winterbauer?

  With the hot mic, somewhat disparaging his apartment. Like, isn't it so sad? This guy lives in this apartment. Lucas obviously has a very good sense of humor. I don't think he took it too much to heart, but it's, it shows how impersonal and distancing the process is, not being in the same, and I've done Zoom auditions, they're.

• 24:08Chris Winterbauer?

  Night and day. How have you managed that? Like, have you been able to get back to in-person auditions now? Have you really like, I would imagine you probably pushed for that as much as possible. Like, what have the last couple of years been like?

• 24:20Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, I really, I don't enjoy Zoom for, for the reasons that we've talked about. But also, you know, you miss so much of the nuance. You, even going past a two-hour in-person session, you see attention spans start to wane. And, you know, but then I'm not there to, the camera's off generally. So, you know, I can't, I don't, I can't police them, who's watching or focusing. And there's distractions.

• 24:56Lizzie Bassett?

  And you miss your hug. You miss your trademark Wendy hug at the top.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. But there's just so much information you're not getting. And the feedback's not quite the same on Zoom. You know, I mean, I think you can adjust. We've had some really successful outcomes, for sure. I mean, we did Abbott Elementary on Zoom and Chem Reads on Zoom. And, you know, it worked. People really were all in to make it as familiar and personal and intimate as it could have been. But it's hard. It's hard. I, I just find it, you know, and we've done, we've done some Chem Reads. We've had like a handful of in-person. We've done callbacks. So I've, I've probably had 10 in-person sessions.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  But it's interesting, before the pandemic, in television, very rarely would anyone come to a session. They just never came. So we were, for years, we pretty much did everything just, just ourselves. Put it on tape and sent it off digitally for them to watch.

• 26:03Chris Winterbauer?

  Interesting.

• 26:04Lizzie Bassett?

  Why is that?

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Because sometimes the directors aren't brought on early enough. So we're casting slightly ahead of the episode because the pace is so fast. And then, once they're in production and, you know, and that. That train is going, it's harder and harder for them to leave prep, or especially if they're an alternating director, like it's, or producers, it gets timewise very tough.

• 26:29Lizzie Bassett?

  Have you ever had to recast a role on a project? And how do you handle that?

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Yes, so one was, it was somebody that the network jammed against, you know, everybody.

• 26:44Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, meaning they pushed this person through against.

• 26:47Speaker 02

  They pushed very hard and after the table read, it was very apparent. And so that was sort of their job to correct. But it did happen recently and yeah, it's heartbreaking. You know, it is heartbreaking because sometimes it's, it's, well, in this instance, it was certainly not the actor's fault. It just for one reason or another, didn't quite work, you know? It was also after a table read.

• 27:16Lizzie Bassett?

  So do you usually stay through a table read then to kind of make sure that?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Yep. Because things, you know, that sometimes the chemistry or the, that people are missing the beats or yeah, a lot of, a lot of things can happen.

• 27:34Chris Winterbauer?

  This podcast is supported by Article. Guys, after my family lost our house in the Eaton Canyon fires, we needed new furniture ASAP for our rental. We needed stuff that would arrive quickly, ideally be pretty stylish and be durable because we got a couple of young kids, which is why we ordered the Sano dining table in walnut from Article and it showed up within days at our new rental. And our kids started beating up on it and it still looks great over a year later. Since then, we've added a couch, the Senni sectional, and we have just become bigger fans of Article. Article makes it effortless for you to create a stylish, long lasting home at truly unbeatable prices. Not only do you not have to wait for stuff to be shipped from warehouses all over the world for weeks and weeks, it arrives quickly and it will last.

• 28:18Chris Winterbauer?

  Again, we have two kids under five. I cannot believe that our dining table and our sectional still look great. Article's offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com/wrong and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com/wrong for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 28:39Chris Winterbauer?

  This podcast is supported by Monarch. Guys, there's nothing more difficult than paying down debt. It can feel like a true Sisyphean task, like you're pushing that rock up that hill, like you're running up that hill, like you are Kate Bush running up that hill. I don't know if that's technically what that song's about, but we're going to use it as a metaphor here. The point is debt's a lot easier to tackle when you can see the finish line, and that's where Monarch comes in. Monarch's debt paydown simulator and visualizer shows you the exact date that you're going to be debt-free based on your real-time balances and payments. Plus, you can test out different payment options to see which one's going to fit your schedule best. I love Monarch because it doesn't just tell me what I've spent. It helps me set out goals, map out big purchases, pay down my debt, and figure out how to do these things before it's too late to adjust.

• 29:23Chris Winterbauer?

  So, write your own money story with Monarch. Use code WRONG at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code WRONG.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Docs, Sheets, and more. No new tools, no extra logins. Just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. Make work less work. Try Google Workspace with Gemini at g o o dot g l e slash workspace with Gemini.

• 30:16Chris Winterbauer?

  At least on the feature side, it feels like for the lead roles in a lot of these, especially streaming projects, no one auditions. Like, at least in the movies that I'm possibly circling. It's like just, oh, we think we can get this person, or this person's interested, or a script I'll get handed. This guy's already attached. Like, that happens to me constantly.

• 30:39Chris Winterbauer?

  How frustrating is that? I find it very frustrating. How frustrating is that on your end of things too? Where it's like, well, now I have to build around something that might or might not even be the right initial foundation, you know, for the house that I'm building? Do you run into that very often?

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot. A lot for, you know... Yeah, with sort of premium cable or when you're trying to get packages or films, it's true. And and it's interesting because I've even, you know, working with actors that direct and they're like, they people don't want to audition. I'm not interested. You know, I don't want I I'm not gonna I'm and and we've done it. But but I also think, but you're offer only all the time. You don't audition. So it was, you know, it's it's interesting, but it's hard. It's a leap of faith.

• 31:28Chris Winterbauer?

  Can you explain that offer only really quickly for anyone that doesn't know?

• 31:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're they won't audition. They generally won't read the material, whether it's actually the actor's choice or the agents protecting, you know, that's a big part of it, too, is is, you know, the the ego of that.

• 31:46Chris Winterbauer?

  So that means the actor is literally not getting the script unless there is an offer.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 31:51Chris Winterbauer?

  Coming in with attached to the script.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Correct. And they will not audition. You won't be able to hear them with the material. You won't be able to hear their interpretation of the role. You don't know if they are going to be in agreement with how it's written, or if they're going to have their own version or their own adjustments.

• 32:11Lizzie Bassett?

  My gosh, I don't. How do you do that? I mean, I I had my own very limited experience with this recently on a podcast where we were trying to find a host and we did run into some offer only. And it was so hard because I I found myself being like, well, I need to hear it. Like, I don't, I I guess we we, you know, we'll go to some people who are willing to do a mic test. How do you do that? Do you find yourself gravitating towards people who are willing to go on tape? Or is it more like you you just know sometimes that someone is right and you go for it?

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's a bit of both. Sometimes we have been actually, and and it seems like a little bit more recently, where we will, the producers or directors won't make that jump. That they have to hear it. They or they at least have to meet and talk about it and get like a temperature on the material and on the vision and and their interpretation of the role. So I think that's also very important. It's like an offer subject to a meeting. That's at least a little bit more helpful. Yeah, it's I think it's super hard to not hear it.

• 33:21Chris Winterbauer?

  It kind of feels like an arms race. You know, like, you know what I mean? Like, like, all of the agents want to be able to say that their actor is only is offer only like. It just feels like this nuclear proliferation. I don't know if it started with probably started before streamers and now it's getting worse. You know what I mean? With like the streaming money that's coming in and whatnot. But anyway, I'm sorry I interrupted you.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  No, no. That's exactly right.

• 33:45Chris Winterbauer?

  More and more actors are now offer only. At least that's my perception.

• 33:49Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah, listen, if I was getting offer only for the podcast.

• 33:54Lizzie Bassett?

  I'm like, I can't imagine what you're dealing with.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Well, but also it's it's then are you if you haven't seen the actor do it before, you know, are you're just going to kind of regurgitate a variation of a role because maybe you're not going to make this huge leap of faith. You're like, well, I don't know if it's in the wheelhouse. It very well may be, but I'm not going to risk my entire film on a maybe, you know?

• 34:20Lizzie Bassett?

  Right. And you don't get the David Walton situation where you're able to try him on something totally different than what he's been getting cast in.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Right. Or or or, I mean, there's just so many performances, you know, that that over history where you would never have imagined that actor in that completely different pair of shoes, you know, like Dustin Hoffman, literally. But you but you, you know, so so do you just keep casting them in the same sort of role? Because you have, you know, do you take a leap of faith? And sometimes you do and it tanks. And we've seen those films where you're like, that couldn't have been more poorly cast or or just an ill fit. I understand why they were probably the biggest name that they could get.

• 35:05Lizzie Bassett?

  Right.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  For the distributor to get your money to get, you know?

• 35:11Chris Winterbauer?

  That's the thing. It's like, do you want to get your movie made? Or do you want to? Stay true to whatever artistic integrity you may consider yourself in possession of at any given moment. Enough about some of those downer aspects of it, of the casting process. How do you navigate? This is gonna get more toxic. How do you navigate? There are so many. This is, this is the part of the process that everyone has an opinion on. It's like, there are so many parts of the process where it's like, production aside, and the producers don't look up from their laptop and they give you a thumbs up or something like that. Casting, everybody is-

• 35:45Lizzie Bassett?

  My mom has an opinion.

• 35:46Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, exactly. As you mentioned. You did when you were a child.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, with, with, oh, my daughter doesn't like that actor. It's happened.

• 35:53Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  They don't, they, they don't, they didn't like that show. And you're like, what does that have to do with-

• 35:58Chris Winterbauer?

  I've had that conversation before.

• 35:59Lizzie Bassett?

  Is she paying for this movie?

• 36:00Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:02Chris Winterbauer?

  So, how do you navigate the often competing desires of the studio, producers, various producers? Because the producers also represent different interests in many instances, and the director or writer, director or showrunner, you know, whoever the kind of the lead creative is. How do you, you know, it's such a political job, too, I would imagine.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  It is, yeah. I feel like that's the part that I struggle with the most because, you know, because I also have my opinion. And it's hard to, sometimes to be quiet. You know, with the producers, directors, you generally hope that, for that project to have moved forward to that stage, they're already on the same page. And usually that relationship has bonded before I step in. Not always. Sometimes, you know, I'm ahead of the director on television. Quite often, like even on a pilot, I'll be ahead of the director coming on. But, but, you know, so generally speaking, you hope that they're in step, the producer and directors.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  And then the studio, yeah, I mean, it, it's tough. I've watched shows- You know, just get noted and noted and noted and the show has changed so drastically from the show that was purchased to the show that's about to go to camera. And then the table read happens and then all these notes come back in and it's going back to the the show that they purchased on paper and it's, you know, I, I, I don't, you know, why, how, who's justifying their job? I don't know, but they're like, some of these notes are just crazy and then you're listening to the writer and the director and they're debriefing you on the torture that they're going through and the, and the creative neutering

• 37:53Speaker 02

  that they're experiencing and it's hard and it's hard to support because you also, you know, there's certain actors or certain, there's certain, I'll probably get in trouble for saying that, certain actors that, you know, and a certain network won't hire again for whatever reason, you know, so.

• 38:13Lizzie Bassett?

  That's not surprising. Yeah.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, if they've had a bad, a bad experience or, um, you know, then you have to kind of know too, who's not on that list or who not to suggest.

• 38:29Lizzie Bassett?

  That's so much to keep

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:31Lizzie Bassett?

  in your head at one time. You totally don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but we have a couple more questions for you. Um, what is the most challenging role that you've cast?

• 38:43Speaker 02

  The most challenging was the, a show, um, called Carnival.

• 38:48Lizzie Bassett?

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Um, and we needed to cast a triple amputee.

• 38:55Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, wow.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Um, so both legs and one arm was the story and, um, and we found a couple people. Um, and then the, the, the young man that we ended up, who was wonderful and we got sort of down to the line with him and we were, we were getting close to shooting and then they realized, oh no, you know what? We need the other arm.

• 39:21Lizzie Bassett?

  What?

• 39:22Speaker 02

  To be the, it has to be, it has to match a previous. Dream. So it has to be, could you just get somebody with the different arm? And I was like, no.

• 39:31Lizzie Bassett?

  Switch the arms.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. They're like, it should be the right arm up the left arm. I can't remember which arm it was, but it was, yeah.

• 39:40Lizzie Bassett?

  I would have lost my mind.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. The fact that we even had options, you know?

• 39:45Lizzie Bassett?

  Seriously? Oh, my God.

• 39:48Chris Winterbauer?

  That's insane.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:49Chris Winterbauer?

  That's actually one of the craziest things.

• 39:51Lizzie Bassett?

  That is nuts.

• 39:53Chris Winterbauer?

  Also, the way the studio phrased it, I'm sure they're like, well, you don't have to fire him, but could it be the other arm?

• 39:59Chris Winterbauer?

  Because, you know, that's how the studio would phrase it.

• 40:01Lizzie Bassett?

  You know, it can't.

• 40:03Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah. Wow.

• 40:05Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 40:06Chris Winterbauer?

  Any of my expectations.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Yes, great.

• 40:09Chris Winterbauer?

  In terms of what would be challenging, not dissimilar, I guess, from that. So any just broad level, major differences between film and television casting? You've mentioned the director being on, obviously much earlier in film than in television. Are there any other broad differences that our audience should understand?

• 40:29Speaker 02

  Generally, time. Usually with a movie, you'll have, you know, you could have months and months to cast. I mean, it could be, you know, six months, it could be two months. Television, you know, if it's a pilot, you are generally have 10 weeks is what they'll bring you on for the studios. If you're now in, in production on episodic, comedy is every week is a brand new script. So you're casting flip, you start all over, you know, from scratch the next week. And the turnover is very, very, very fast. And if it's one hour, you would generally, that would be an eight day cycle.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  So weekends will fit in, so it might extend to a week and a half, maybe two weeks. But the turnaround is a little slower, but you generally have more roles as well with an hour. You have more time to tell the story. And, you know, and again, now with. Cable television has become such incredible storytelling now. So they really, the overlap is becoming more similar. And especially with, you know, a high level pilot, you could have months and months and months to work on it in advance.

• 41:50Lizzie Bassett?

  If you could give aspiring casting directors one piece of advice, what would you say?

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Oof, um, I would say not to get discouraged by the remote and the Zoom. I think it's, it's, it feels to me like it's a pretty tough time to be jumping into casting. Because so much of, so much of the work that I get is based on relationships that I've had, you know, from being in person and, you know, spending time with different actors. And so to not, to not be able to be in a room, I think, to not, to not give up. If it's something that you really love and you're really interested in, it's going to take a little bit longer and it's going to be a little bit,

• 42:38Speaker 02

  not as, um, I don't think you're going to get the, feel the rewards or those, that, those immediate validations. But just to keep grinding and stick with it.

• 42:50Chris Winterbauer?

  And how about for actors out there and their agents, if they happen to be listening, what piece of advice would you give them?

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Actors, I would just say bringing you to every role. Don't try and overthink what we're looking for. Don't try and think about how you imagine we see the role. Bring how you feel the role. Bring your essence into it. Bring your, your version, because no one else will have that version. And if you try and just simulate what you think we're looking for, there'll be 20 versions of that.

• 43:25Lizzie Bassett?

  I love that. I'm reading Carrie Elwes's book about making the princess bride right now. And that's something that it sounds like Rob Reiner said to his actors quite frequently when they were kind of freaking out was like, you don't need to worry about it. Like, it's you. It's like, I wanted you. It's you. So you don't have to do anything. Just like, go in and you're already, you're already the character. And I think that's so, like, what a lovely sort of release to give to your actors.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  It's true. It's really true, though. You're gonna be right, or you're not gonna be right. But so much of that is out of your control. So don't try and control it.

• 44:00Lizzie Bassett?

  Oh, that's such good advice.

• 44:02Chris Winterbauer?

  I think that's a great note to end it on, Wendy. Thank you so much for being a part of our little show. Everybody out there, watch Abbott Elementary. Check it out. Check out Weird. It's weird. It's super fun. Great, unexpected casting in that film from the lead role on down. Wendy, anything else you would like to plug before we let you go?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Unemployment.

• 44:33Chris Winterbauer?

  California. Give unemployment to the writers and casting directors and everybody. We need it because of the strike. And hopefully, we will all be back to work soon. Wendy, hopefully I'll have a script I can be sending you soon. So we'll see. And you can fix what's wrong with it by finding people who can say the words in a way that makes me sound smart.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Oh, you are smart.

• 44:57Lizzie Bassett?

  Yay!

• 44:58Chris Winterbauer?

  And with that, guys, check out again Wendy's list of credits. They're incredible. And check out Abbott Elementary. And Wendy, thanks again for taking the time to chat with us tonight.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Lizzy.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Docs, Sheets, and more. No new tools, no extra logins. Just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. Make work less work. Try Google Workspace with Gemini at G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 45:57Speaker 04

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone. And including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO, and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.