Rick Rubin: The Spiritual Secret to Limitless Creativity

Rick Rubin reveals something most nine-time Grammy winners would never admit: he walks into every new project terrified because he has no control over what will happen. This vulnerability, paired with an unshakeable commitment to making art as a devotional act, has guided collaborations with everyone from Johnny Cash to the Red Hot Chili Peppers. You'll hear how Rick lost 135 pounds by surrendering control, why he believes wrestling is the most honest sport, and what changed when he realized greatness isn't about worldly success but about making a gift to God. This isn't advice about making better art. This is about becoming someone capable of receiving it. Rick’s book The Creative ActIn this episode you will:Discover why making art for yourself is the only path to truly serving your audience and how the moment you stop caring about reactions is when your best work emergesTransform your relationship with creative blocks by understanding that obstacles aren't always meant to be pushed through and sometimes the universe is telling you now is not the timeBreak through decades of people-pleasing by recognizing that your inner voice knows exactly what tastes good to you and no external opinion can convince you otherwiseUncover the hidden cost of success and why achieving your biggest goals often reveals they were never going to fill the hole in your soulMaster the practice of making art as a devotional act and learn why creating a gift for God eliminates every worldly concern about chart positions and commercial performanceFor more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1847For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Michael Bublé – greatness.lnk.to/1827SCJosh Groban – greatness.lnk.to/1818SCRupi Kaur – greatness.lnk.to/1678SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Rick Rubin in the house. Good to see you, sir, and thank you for being here. You have an incredible journey, incredible story, and you've done some amazing things. You're a nine-time Grammy-winning producer, named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the World. You've got a number-one your time bestselling book, which has just taken over the world in a powerful way. And I've got so many questions I want to ask you about this. But you've also worked with some of the most influential artists of our generation, which is really cool, just to sit and be with you to talk about some of

• 0:43Lewis Howes?

  this. Some of the people like Red Hot Chili Peppers, Johnny Cash, Jay-Z, Tom Petty, Anadelle Ray, Adele, The Chicks, Kanye West, Lady Gaga, so many incredible influential artists of our time. I watched part of your documentary series, and I just am fascinated by the way you think and by the way you move throughout space and time. I love that you're an avid meditator and that you walk around barefoot pretty much every single day. I think you had to wear shoes here today just to enter the building, but otherwise 99% of your life is barefoot. And something that I feel like a lot of people struggle with is tapping into

• 1:26Lewis Howes?

  their creativity. And I think a lot of people are born with an artistic expression inside of them, but then it gets diminished over time. A lot of people, not everyone. And I'm curious, do you feel like, have you, when have you felt like you've been most insecure in your creative endeavors? Because you seem so confident, you have hit after hit, everything you touch turns into gold seemingly, but I'm also assuming that not everything works out the way you envision. Do you ever feel insecure with your artistic expression, or are you always confident?

• 2:06Rick Rubin?

  I'm confident with artistic expression, because my only goal is to make something that I like, and I know that I can keep working on it until I like it. So in some ways, there's no pressure, because the goal is to make the thing that I like, I know what I like. If I don't like it, I keep working and eventually we get to a place where we like it.

• 2:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Do you ever face the inner critic of, well, what if other people don't like this?

• 2:37Rick Rubin?

  No, I don't consider them at all.

• 2:39Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 2:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, something I say in the book is that the audience comes last. And I believe that. I'm not, um,

• 2:48Rick Rubin?

  I'm not making it for them. I'm making it for me. And it turns out that when you make something truly for yourself, you're doing the best thing you possibly can for the audience. So much of why, um, if you go to the movies, so many big movies, just not good. It's because they're, they're not being made by a person who cares about it. They're being made by people who are trying to make something that they think someone else is gonna like. And that's not how art works. Art doesn't, that's something else. It's not art. That's commerce.

• 3:28Rick Rubin?

  So if we're making art, we're making, it's, it's almost like, it's almost like a diary entry.

• 3:36Rick Rubin?

  So it, can some, could I be concerned that someone else might not like my diary entry? Doesn't make sense, you know, it has nothing to do with them. My, my diary entry has nothing to do with anyone else. So everything we make as artists are essentially diary entries.

• 3:55Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting, and it's also, most people never want the world to see their diary, right? It's like you kind of keep it closed off, you keep it to yourself. You almost feel embarrassed if someone found your diary, if it's really personal, intimate, you know, fears or concerns or hopes and dreams. So how does someone write or create something for themselves in their own personal diary, but also want to share with the world and not allow the criticisms to affect them?

• 4:23Rick Rubin?

  That's where the, um, The courage of the artist comes in, which is, this is who I am. And i- in my case, I'm less concerned with the result. So I think that's a lot of it. It's like, I'm not making it for someone else to get their reaction. I'm making it to have my experience. And as soon as I decide to share it, in my mind, it's success because I care about it enough. I like it enough for other people to see it. If other people, they can like it or not, that's up to them. And that's, that's their thing, you know, that's about them. That's not about me.

• 5:05Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think so many people struggle with the opinions of others when they're sharing their art to the world?

• 5:11Rick Rubin?

  I think it's a natural human thought. I, I, I don't know if it was always the case.

• 5:16Lewis Howes?

  Cause you don't have that at all.

• 5:17Rick Rubin?

  I don't have that at all. I don't have that at all.

• 5:20Lewis Howes?

  But it seems like 99% of people have that. It seems like it, maybe I'm wrong.

• 5:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I think the best artists tend not to have that or find a way to turn it off.

• 5:30Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 5:30Rick Rubin?

  And, and a big part of my job with artists is helping them turn it off. It's like, we're not, we're not thinking about singles. We're not thinking about chart position. We're not thinking about anything but making the most beautiful, honest, true thing we can. And when I say honest and true, it could be fiction. Do you know, do you know what I'm saying? It's not, uh, it's the thing that's touches us and excites us and surprises us. Which is also interesting, the fact that we can make something that surprises us happens every day.

• 6:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you talk about magic a lot. You know, I've seen that in, in your book, but also in the documentary series about, uh, you know, the work you've done. And how does someone tap into their own magic? When they have such a critical mind, self criticism, but also family critics, managers, all that other stuff criticizing what's good and what's not good. How do, how do, how do you coach someone to actually eliminate or diminish decades of conditioning within a week or two?

• 6:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:39Lewis Howes?

  To make their art?

• 6:41Rick Rubin?

  I would say the, um,

• 6:46Rick Rubin?

  it, it comes down to a.

• 6:52Rick Rubin?

  Like a personal reaction to something, if I, if I gave you two different foods and I asked you to taste them, you wouldn't have a hard time telling me which one you liked. If you really liked one and didn't like the other. So if you had people around you saying, no, but this other one that you don't like, that's the good one. That, no one could convince you that the thing that tastes bad to you tastes good to you. So it's, it's a very simple, it's such a simple idea, getting to what do I actually like? No second guessing. No, it doesn't go past and, and it doesn't have to stand for anything. It doesn't have to represent you.

• 7:35Rick Rubin?

  It's just, this is the thing that tastes good to me. What do you think? That's, that's our whole job is this tastes good to me, what do you think?

• 7:42Lewis Howes?

  When an artist is, you know, you mentioned commerce and you mentioned art. When an artist is struggling financially and they're like, I want to make things that I enjoy that taste really good for me. But I've been doing that for five, seven, 10 years and it doesn't taste good for anyone else. How can I make a living around my art? Or should I not think about my art as making a living, but I should be thinking about commerce separate from the art?

• 8:09Rick Rubin?

  I, I think dividing them is a really healthy idea. And then having a job that supports you so that you can be free in your art is ultimately what's best for the art.

• 8:20Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 8:21Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Now you can get a job related, you know, you can get a job in the industry you're interested in, you can get a job if you're a painter, you can get a job in a gallery. You can be around it. Um, and then also when you do something like that, if you were to work in a recording studio, you may decide this is not for me. You know, we don't really know. We, we have ideas of what we want to try, but then when you try them, sometimes yes, that works, sometimes you don't. So many people get on a track when they're young. I have a cousin who, um, went to school to become a dentist and he was a dentist for years.

• 9:01Rick Rubin?

  And after 15 or 20 years, just like, I can't do this, this isn't, I don't want to do this. It was a wrong choice. So many people live a, an unhappy life sticking to a program from when they were younger. And we have to find like you, you are speaking to people now versus playing sports. It's a big change.

• 9:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:27Rick Rubin?

  But it seems like a really positive change for you, but it wasn't what you set out to do originally.

• 9:31Lewis Howes?

  Right. Yeah. You've been doing this for how long now? Producing music for forty years?

• 9:36Rick Rubin?

  About forty years.

• 9:37Lewis Howes?

  Roughly forty years.

• 9:38Rick Rubin?

  Close to forty years.

• 9:38Lewis Howes?

  Have there ever been a time where you felt like it was stagnant for you or you weren't creatively inspired? Or you felt like it was dull? It wasn't this awe or magic that you were wanting?

• 9:51Rick Rubin?

  It was, it's always magic. It's always exciting. I can't say that every moment of every project has been that, but there are always these glimpses of wonder that come through the, through the creative process that are staggering. And they're very addictive, you know, being in a room where something's not happening and all of a sudden it's happening and you don't know why and you don't know what changed. It's a very exciting feeling.

• 10:24Lewis Howes?

  How often do you experience that feeling?

• 10:28Rick Rubin?

  All the time.

• 10:28Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 10:29Rick Rubin?

  All the time. Now, when I say all the time, we may start a project and maybe it doesn't happen for a few days, but then it starts happening.

• 10:36Lewis Howes?

  What is that moment? And, and what is the feeling that you have? And what is it that you notice either in your mind or in the environment that is shifting for that feeling to occur?

• 10:48Rick Rubin?

  It's an inner excitement. It's like a leaning forward. It's a curiosity of like, can we hear that again? When was that? What was that? I've not heard that before. That's interesting to me.

• 11:03Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 11:03Rick Rubin?

  Absolutely.

• 11:05Lewis Howes?

  So after four decades of doing this, you still get surprised by hearing new things?

• 11:10Rick Rubin?

  All the time.

• 11:11Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 11:12Rick Rubin?

  All the time. Why does this work with this? Who knows? And if I were to tell you the idea, or if someone were to tell me the idea, I would listen to their words and think that's a terrible idea. And then we try it and it's remarkable.

• 11:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Can you give me an example of something that stands out for you? For maybe a well-known artist that people know about, or maybe someone completely unknown?

• 11:35Rick Rubin?

  I can say something happened the other day where we recorded a song in a particular way with a particular instrument. And it sounded really beautiful. And then the artist said, well, let's try it. Uh, I'm imagining it. And they described a something so different. And in the description, it sounded terrible.

• 11:59Lewis Howes?

  The way they explained it?

• 12:00Rick Rubin?

  The way they explained it, or, or the references. They gave me references of, well, if we do it like this band with this kind of a beat. And the, and I tried to imagine the same song that we just recorded this different way, that way. And in my imagination, it did not sound good. And then I said, let's try it. And then they played it. And at first it didn't sound good, but very quickly it got great. And there's no way to know, there's no way to know. You can't, that's, that's a big part of it is, um, I see artists who get into arguments like a band who gets into an argument. Let's do it this way. No, let's do it this way. And I'll always say, well, let's just play it both ways and listen, see.

• 12:43Rick Rubin?

  Let's see, let's see what actually happens.

• 12:46Lewis Howes?

  Right. And that might spark something completely new.

• 12:48Rick Rubin?

  Absolutely.

• 12:49Lewis Howes?

  They both might suck.

• 12:50Rick Rubin?

  Absolutely.

• 12:51Lewis Howes?

  Let's try it another way.

• 12:52Rick Rubin?

  Or they both might be great. And sometimes when they're both great, it's like, oh, maybe this is better for the chorus than this other thing actually can work as a bridge. We weren't even looking for a bridge.

• 13:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's fascinating. In this, uh, documentary series about you and your facility and kind of your life.

• 13:08Rick Rubin?

  The Shangri-La documentary?

• 13:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, powerful. I'm, I'm not all the way through it. I've done the first episode and a half. Someone in the first episode says, Rick helps people be the best version of you. And I'm curious, who helps you become the best version of yourself?

• 13:25Rick Rubin?

  Probably, I would say now my family, you know, having a family, but also I'm, I have some, some really, um,

• 13:35Rick Rubin?

  Hard driving friends like, you know, you met Laird Hamilton, someone like, if you have someone like Laird in your, your life, being around people like him make you better at being a human being.

• 13:47Lewis Howes?

  What's the biggest thing you struggle with today?

• 13:51Rick Rubin?

  I think that there are a lot of fun things to try and finding time to do all of the things possible, the, the exciting things that I'm, I want to try.

• 14:04Lewis Howes?

  Right. Cause how do you pick and choose the projects you work on and the artists you work with? Is it a, is it a feeling? Is it relationships you have with their managers? Is it, yeah, I want to try this new thing and let's bring them in. Is it?

• 14:17Rick Rubin?

  It usually starts with meeting the artist and um, just if there's a connection with the, the human and that's usually how it starts.

• 14:27Lewis Howes?

  How often does that happen then? Cause I'm assuming a lot of people want to work with you. So is it, you know, every Monday, people will, you know, managers will send their artists to you and they'll have an interview process with you for an hour or two and then you'll get a vibe and see if you want to work with them. Is there a waiting list? How does that work?

• 14:43Rick Rubin?

  Uh, it honestly doesn't happen that often because I'm always in different parts of the world and I'm not really part of the system. So if you were to go to, if you got signed to a record company and they showed you a list of all the producers to work with, I'm not on anybody's list.

• 14:58Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 14:59Rick Rubin?

  So it's someone would have to seek me out outside of the normal system to find me and then it either would or wouldn't happen.

• 15:06Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being their most creative and best self?

• 15:18Rick Rubin?

  I think it's being concerned what other people think and a feeling of.

• 15:26Rick Rubin?

  That the people who make great things are somehow special and that they're not special. And that's just not true. That we're all, everyone has the capability to make great things. And none of us are special.

• 15:41Lewis Howes?

  It seems like a lot of people, they're focused on what other people think, like you said. And it almost, it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling, I guess, that they feel like they're stuck in a rut. I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with, with me as a writer and an author, I've heard so many people come to me and say, I want to write a book. And I ask them, how long have you been, had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing? And some people will say five, seven, 10 years, but they've been worried about what people think, or they feel creatively stuck in a rut. Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that?

• 16:20Rick Rubin?

  I think taking action is a really great thing and not, not setting up barriers of entry. Like, um, I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar, or I don't have the right equipment to do it. And there are no barriers to entry. There's always a way. I come from a punk rock background. So in punk rock, it was a do it yourself mentality. And, um, you know, I started my first record company not knowing, not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically. I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them. I never knew that you could get signed to a label. I just thought, well, if you want to make a record, you make a record.

• 17:01Rick Rubin?

  So I made records and, you know, printed up 500 copies of a seven inch single, for example. So I think there's always a way. You don't have to wait for permission from someone else.

• 17:16Rick Rubin?

  I think that's a big part. People are waiting for permission.

• 17:19Lewis Howes?

  To actually make their art.

• 17:20Rick Rubin?

  To make their art. Someone has to say, you know, I'll hire you to do this, or I'll publish your book if you write a book, or set the stage to, to allow you to do it. But I don't think that's the way great things are made.

• 17:36Lewis Howes?

  When you did those, when you printed those first 500 singles. What was your dream or your vision? Was it, okay, now I'm gonna, how do I sell these? How am I gonna give them away for free? What was the process for you?

• 17:48Rick Rubin?

  Combination of giving them away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one. That was always, any of the things I've made, it's always been about sustainability. As long as I can make another one, it's a success.

• 18:02Lewis Howes?

  But at this point, you know, you're sustainable probably for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had. So you don't have to make something to try to make your money back, you know, or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now?

• 18:16Rick Rubin?

  It's still, I still think in those terms, though I want, I feel like I want to make it where it's sustainable by itself.

• 18:26Rick Rubin?

  There's something that feels good about that, that you make something that can live on, not because of an endowment.

• 18:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's interesting. I know you're

• 18:35Rick Rubin?

  I don't know why, I don't know why, but that's just my, and maybe it's just the way I was brought up, may just be.

• 18:41Lewis Howes?

  What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art?

• 18:47Rick Rubin?

  I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and

• 18:57Rick Rubin?

  being true to themselves, whatever that is. Feeling, feeling their truths.

• 19:05Lewis Howes?

  And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you?

• 19:09Rick Rubin?

  It's a, it's just a feeling, I can feel it.

• 19:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think something that you said was, I have no skill set. It's all intuitive. It's not what's in my head, it comes through me.

• 19:21Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 19:23Lewis Howes?

  So you're not analyzing or thinking about it, you're saying, huh, something doesn't feel right.

• 19:27Rick Rubin?

  It starts with a feeling always. It starts with a feeling, the analysis comes in later to try to understand either the feeling, if there's a reason, like, if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine. If we have to act on the feeling, then it's like, okay, this feels like this, can I, is there a way to figure out why? Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. And if you can figure out why, or if you think you know why, then you can say, hmm, could it be this, this, or this? Let's try those things, see what happens.

• 20:01Lewis Howes?

  Do you have a process when you're starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced? And you say, okay, let's do this. We're gonna work together. Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them? But then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together?

• 20:20Rick Rubin?

  I'll say when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety.

• 20:25Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 20:25Rick Rubin?

  Always, always, because I don't know what's gonna happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in start. And I know that it could go a lot of different ways. And I don't have, I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance. I'm interested in seeing where it's gonna go. And it's scary because it could not go good. And sometimes there's an ex, you know, some artists have an expectation that I'm gonna do something. I can't do anything, you know?

• 20:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:57Rick Rubin?

  It's like, it's either gonna happen or it's not gonna happen. So, but then usually within, sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's the third day, sometimes it's the second week where something happens like, whoa, what was that? How did that happen? And then that might give us a clue. It's like, oh, this is, this is what it wants to be. And that may change also. It may, that may be the first inclination. It could start that way and then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different. The, the work itself tells us where it wants to go. So because we have, the reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it. That's what's scary.

• 21:33Lewis Howes?

  There's no control.

• 21:34Rick Rubin?

  None.

• 21:35Lewis Howes?

  And if an artist has a big expectation, I need to put out a record that's gonna do well. I need to make money. I need to make the label happy, whatever it is. My, my fans need to love this. Then that could feel like a lot of pressure, but do you allow that pressure to affect you?

• 21:50Rick Rubin?

  No, because I know it's not in the interest of the work. It's like, we're all on the same page. Even the, even the people were ignoring the, you know, the record companies, the managers, the agents, the people who are yelling, I need this, I need this now. Ultimately, for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins. It's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen. I had a conversation with a basketball player, a member of the Golden State Warriors, who told me, um, there's all this pressure now to do a lot of stuff on social media.

• 22:33Rick Rubin?

  And he said, and it's getting in the way of our playing.

• 22:38Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 22:39Rick Rubin?

  And I said, well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win? So if you want us to win, let us focus on winning. And he said, they don't seem to care. They want us to do the social media stuff. They want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game.

• 22:57Lewis Howes?

  From the flow, from the practice, putting in the reps, showing up.

• 23:01Rick Rubin?

  And then I say, well, if then it's up to you, what's more important, to please them or to win?

• 23:07Lewis Howes?

  Man, this is fascinating. Was there, um, was there, what was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in? And it was the fastest, best flowing process you've ever experienced, where just like everything was lining up, authenticity, truth, you know, raw realness was happening every, every day. And it was also, it was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest, but it also landed commercially and took off.

• 23:44Rick Rubin?

  The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash, because he had gone, you know, 25 years of not having success. And he'd been dropped from two labels. And when I signed him, he didn't, he didn't even know why I was interested. That really was the conversation. It's like, what, why, what do you, why do you think working with you is going to be any different than working with anyone else? Like, he had given up.

• 24:12Rick Rubin?

  And to for him to get into it, we recorded in my living room. And he would just play me songs on acoustic guitar. And there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record at that time. We were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs. It was almost like a way for us to to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing or a song he wrote. And it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio. We picked some of those songs. We went through hundreds of songs and then picked a handful to try to record.

• 24:57Rick Rubin?

  And when we went into the studio with the band, it didn't sound, it didn't have what the living room recordings had. There was some intimate honesty. And we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before. So that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album. Again, we just set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as that's the most interesting thing to do. And that ended up being very successful and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s. So that was a.

• 25:39Rick Rubin?

  And after that, after the success of that album, we made five more albums together and he had confidence.

• 25:47Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:48Rick Rubin?

  Based on the experience of the first one, which he'd expected nobody to care about, really took to cold with people. And then on, I think it was on our fourth or fifth album, he did a cover of Hurt, the Nine Inch Nails song. And that ended up being probably the biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life.

• 26:12Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:13Rick Rubin?

  And and that was a real revelation.

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  How important is confidence for an artist in your mind to have? Because I've I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically, that are gifted beyond anything physically, who can do anything in practice. But then they lacked the confidence in the game and they looked like an average player.

• 26:36Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 26:37Lewis Howes?

  Does that, is that the same thing with, with artists, singers, guitar players, you know, musicians where there's, they could be so gifted, but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record, then on the confidence, does that hold people back? Have you seen that?

• 26:51Rick Rubin?

  I'll say it's, it's not as simple as that because there's a, there's a vulnerability required for the artist that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. So it's a, it's like a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through. That combination, which is a difficult combination.

• 27:27Lewis Howes?

  It's almost like what I'm hearing you say, this is really interesting point. It's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence. It's more of like, you just gotta, if you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art.

• 27:44Rick Rubin?

  That's true. There's, I'll say though, to get up in front of people and sing takes a certain amount of confidence.

• 27:51Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 27:51Rick Rubin?

  It's just part of the, it's a hard thing to do. I couldn't imagine doing it.

• 27:55Lewis Howes?

  That's true. My, a friend of mine, uh, just, uh, Rachel Platten, she just, um, she wrote a song called Fight Song that was, you know, really, really popular over the last six or seven years. But she had a, you know, she started a family over the last five years. So she's got two, two young kids and she just played at the, the Troubadour a couple nights ago. And, um, I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident, but she hadn't played in a while. And so she came out and she was like, guys, I'm actually really nervous. And this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a man with these new songs in a while, and I'm revealing myself of these new songs. You know, you could sense this, you know, vulnerability, which was actually beautiful.

• 28:37Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 28:37Lewis Howes?

  It was like, we're rooting for her. You know, she she messed up a few times, but she kept going and she was like, hey, I'm gonna restart this and thank you guys, you know. But it was like, wow, it it made moments of like awe and magic happen.

• 28:51Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 28:51Lewis Howes?

  It was so cool.

• 28:52Rick Rubin?

  Yes, and and it's not about perfection. That's the thing. It's like humanity breathes in the mistakes, you know, in the it's what it's what's not ordinary. If it was if it was machine like perfect, it's not so interesting. It's cookie cutter.

• 29:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 29:10Rick Rubin?

  It's all the same. So it's the it's the edges, it's the frayed edges that make it interesting.

• 29:19Lewis Howes?

  Talk about transcendence, you talk about manifestation um in the universe. I know you're a big meditator. How long have you been meditating for?

• 29:27Rick Rubin?

  I learned when I was fourteen and um it's been a a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it continually, but I go through phases of five years on, two years off, or or something might replace it. That's another kind of a meditation, like I may go from a TM, sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi. And Tai Chi will be will fill the slot of my TM time.

• 29:56Lewis Howes?

  Right, transcendental meditation, yeah. Um, and I also read that you really have never been into drugs or alcohol, is that correct? I've never been drunk or high in my life.

• 30:06Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 30:07Lewis Howes?

  And um, you know, as an athlete playing football, college football and professional football, it was kind of shocking when people would hear that from me because the stereotype is, you know, the dumb jog that just drinks and does the keg stands. But I learned early on, I was telling you before, that my brother went to prison when I was eight. And when you go to a prison, a visiting room every single weekend, um, then you realize quickly you don't want to go there. And a lot of a lot of guys were in there for drugs or, you know, doing bad things. And for me, I was just like, oh, I I don't even want to try some of this stuff because I don't know where this might lead. So let me just eliminate this from my life. Now, I've had sips here and there, but I've never been drunk. How has?

• 30:52Lewis Howes?

  Cleansing your mind of drugs and alcohol, of not really diving into it, supported you as an artist. And do you think drugs and alcohol can make artists be great?

• 31:05Rick Rubin?

  I can tell you that when I was going to high school, most of the kids that I knew would come home from school and get high. And the main reason was out of boredom. And just trying to fill time. And I never, I always feel like there's not enough time. Like, there's so much I want to learn. There's so much I want to read. There's so much I want to try that.

• 31:33Rick Rubin?

  I'm not trying to turn off time. I'm interested in something different. Now, the idea of a hallucinatory experience sounds interesting to me, but I've not done it.

• 31:44Lewis Howes?

  You've never done psychedelics or anything? I've never done that either. I've always been, you know, I have a lot of friends that do it. I'm sure you do as well.

• 31:52Lewis Howes?

  And I don't know, for whatever reason, it's never excited me to try.

• 31:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 31:58Lewis Howes?

  Maybe in the future.

• 32:00Rick Rubin?

  Same. I feel like someday I will probably do it.

• 32:02Lewis Howes?

  Right. So have you been drunk or high?

• 32:07Rick Rubin?

  I got drunk one time as part of a school assignment.

• 32:12Lewis Howes?

  Assignment? Well, what school is this?

• 32:15Rick Rubin?

  I went to Harvard for a summer between my junior and senior of high school to start getting college credits. And I took a logic class and a design class, and they had a Harvard bartending class. And I thought, that's really funny. Even as someone who doesn't drink, the idea of like having a degree in bartending from Harvard was funny. So I did it. And I thought of it like chemistry. The idea of mixing things is interesting.

• 32:37Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. It's only one time.

• 32:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, we, the final exam was for you to mix like 30 different drinks and then taste them to know what they taste like. And I got really drunk and it was terrible experience.

• 32:47Lewis Howes?

  So you've never been drunk since then?

• 32:49Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 32:50Lewis Howes?

  You've been high or?

• 32:51Rick Rubin?

  No. I, I went on my 40th birthday in Kauai.

• 32:57Rick Rubin?

  I prayed all day and I did a ceremony where I smoked some marijuana, the only time in my life. And um, and I would say it had almost no

• 33:08Lewis Howes?

  No effect, yeah.

• 33:09Rick Rubin?

  Almost no.

• 33:10Lewis Howes?

  So you might have felt a little buzz or something, but nothing?

• 33:12Rick Rubin?

  I didn't feel a buzz. I would say that when I looked out into the landscape, it was more clarity between the foreground and background. That was one. And I remember we drove to dinner and I drove and driving felt more fun than usual, like playing video.

• 33:30Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure, sure. But you weren't really high or whatever. That's fascinating. So never really drunk or high?

• 33:35Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 33:36Lewis Howes?

  Except for a social experiment or, you know, a one-time trial thing. I don't think I've met many people who's never been drunk or high like me. So that's pretty interesting. Maybe that's the Pisces in us, you know, maybe.

• 33:48Rick Rubin?

  Maybe. And you know, Pisces have a tendency to go the other way of

• 33:52Lewis Howes?

  Everything else.

• 33:53Rick Rubin?

  We are addictive people.

• 33:55Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 33:55Rick Rubin?

  Historically.

• 33:56Lewis Howes?

  Yes. That's why, one of the things is I don't think if I would have gotten into alcohol or, or some type of drug, I think I would have become addicted. I would have been extreme with it.

• 34:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Lewis Howes?

  So I've tried to be extreme in more healthier ways, I think, for myself. Now, the stereotype is, or the generalization is that a lot of artists smoke weed or do drugs or experiment with alcohol or do these different things. And they talk, you know, maybe this is my own perception of it. They talk about it in their creative process, right? I was high when I did this and it gave me all these creative ideas. How do you view that of when artists are working with you? Are they smoking? Are they drinking? You know, when they're with you? Or do you try to help them eliminate that to clear their mind?

• 34:43Rick Rubin?

  Um, I want people to do what they want to do. I have no, um, no opinion. If, if I see someone doing something that's interfering with their work, I'll talk about it.

• 34:53Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:54Rick Rubin?

  But if it's not interfering with their work, that's their business.

• 34:58Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever seen an artist that you knew had a history of alcohol or smoking marijuana or some type of drug? That?

• 35:09Lewis Howes?

  When they worked with you, they weren't, they were clear of all drugs and substances? And they were actually able to create something beautiful and magical?

• 35:19Rick Rubin?

  Well, I saw the Chili Peppers go from a band that were very dysfunctional on a lot of drugs, which I didn't really know. I just knew that when I met them, the feeling in the room was one I didn't want to be around. And then I met them years later and they had gotten clean.

• 35:40Rick Rubin?

  And I felt like it was a different group of people. And then we ended up making Blood, Sugar, Sex, Magic, which ended up being a very successful album for them. And then I produced most of their albums since.

• 35:51Lewis Howes?

  When they were clean and, you know, that's interesting. Do you think that people overall make better work as artists when they are clear minded without substances?

• 36:01Rick Rubin?

  I think over the long term, that's probably the case. But there are many great artists who use something like marijuana as a

• 36:12Rick Rubin?

  Some people have told me that they can hear music in a different way. Again, I haven't experienced it, so I can't say. But some people have told me that they hear music in a different way when they smoke and they can access their creativity.

• 36:28Rick Rubin?

  So I think you have to do your own testing.

• 36:32Lewis Howes?

  Do you think it's better to make, I don't know about better is the right word, but do you think

• 36:38Lewis Howes?

  it's more impactful to make your art from a place of pain, anger or sadness, or from a place of love, peace and harmony?

• 36:49Rick Rubin?

  I don't think it matters. I think, I think it's true to your experience. So if you're feeling anger and sadness, a sad angry song will probably be good. And if you're feeling love and peace, then you're in the right frequency to create that kind of song.

• 37:04Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 37:04Rick Rubin?

  You can also, sometimes if you're in a real pain, you can write a yearning song for love that can have, be very deep. But one of the things about when you're in pain.

• 37:21Rick Rubin?

  You tap into uh

• 37:25Rick Rubin?

  you tap into things to you're looking for you're not satisfied in your condition. So you're yearning for change and sometimes the energy of yearning for change can lead to really beautiful music.

• 37:40Lewis Howes?

  Right. Wow. Is there someone that you're able to talk about or share that spoke and created from a place of yearning when they worked with you? That later said it was extremely healing process for them, working with you for a few weeks on an album. And and expressing their diary in that way and allowed them to heal and have lightness on the other side.

• 38:06Rick Rubin?

  The most recent one was um I made an album, the last album of Kesha. And her, she had gone through very difficult experience.

• 38:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Rick Rubin?

  And she told me that it was a very healing experience working on the album and different than any experience she'd had previously. Where it was much more about commerce before.

• 38:28Lewis Howes?

  What's the most painful thing you've been through that? You've had to heal and overcome?

• 38:33Rick Rubin?

  Probably the biggest one was um, you know, I was overweight most of my life. And it was just, it was, I was not comfortable in my body. And I always felt like an outsider and felt like it limited what I could do.

• 38:47Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 38:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. So I think probably

• 38:53Rick Rubin?

  weight was my biggest issue.

• 38:55Lewis Howes?

  What was the the root behind that, you think?

• 38:57Rick Rubin?

  I think it was mostly bad information. Um, although my mom was obese, so I thought it's just genetic. And I tried everything. I tried every uh every type of diet. Nothing worked. And then eventually I found the the correct balance and you know, I was a vegan for 23 years and I weighed 318 pounds as a vegan.

• 39:22Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Yeah, you can be a sick vegan.

• 39:25Rick Rubin?

  I was, I was very sick as a vegan and I wasn't getting what I needed.

• 39:31Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:31Rick Rubin?

  And it's a carb, it's basically a carbohydrate diet.

• 39:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and you can have all the sugar you want being a vegan, but that doesn't mean it's healthy for you as well. So it's like.

• 39:42Lewis Howes?

  What do you think was, you know, it sounded like you tried a lot of different things for 20 years, but it didn't work. But you found the right combination. But was there something you needed to mend or heal emotionally that allowed you to shift internally?

• 39:54Rick Rubin?

  It was just information. I was always, I was always willing to do it. I would say probably the biggest, maybe there is an aspect, which is I thought I knew what was best. So there was a sense of turning over control to someone else. That was a surrender.

• 40:11Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 40:13Rick Rubin?

  I saw a doctor at UCLA who a friend of mine recommended I go to. I knew it wasn't going to work because I had done everything and nothing worked. And he put me on a particular diet. And I remember thinking, it sounds terrible, but I, and it's not going to work, but I'll, you know, I'll do what you say. I had no belief. And, but I put my faith in him, or I, I gave up faith, I gave up, but listened and

• 40:43Lewis Howes?

  And committed to the process.

• 40:44Rick Rubin?

  And committed to the process and the weight fell off.

• 40:46Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 40:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 40:47Lewis Howes?

  How long did it take? Was it like a six month, year process?

• 40:49Rick Rubin?

  14 months and I lost 135 pounds.

• 40:52Lewis Howes?

  Man, that's awesome. Congrats on that.

• 40:53Rick Rubin?

  Thank you very much.

• 40:54Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And when was this?

• 40:57Rick Rubin?

  12 years ago, something like that.

• 40:58Lewis Howes?

  12 years ago. You look really healthy right now. That suntanned, you know, wherever you're at.

• 41:04Rick Rubin?

  I spent a lot of time in the sun. I'm a sun worshipper.

• 41:11Lewis Howes?

  Now, do you feel like when you were able to, I guess, get that support, see the changes physically, did something transform inside of you spiritually to be a better artist? Once that transformation started to happen? Or did you think you were still making great art, you know, when you were 100 pounds overweight, would you say?

• 41:35Rick Rubin?

  I think we were making great art the whole time. The differences between losing weight and then meeting Laird and starting to train and get into my body, because I was sedentary my whole life. And

• 41:51Lewis Howes?

  Just sitting all day?

• 41:52Rick Rubin?

  Sitting all day or laying down all day. I liked laying down more than sitting. This is the longest I've been in a chair that I, since I've been on an airplane. Um, with Laird, when I showed up to Laird's the first time, I couldn't do one push up.

• 42:05Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 42:05Rick Rubin?

  Swear to you, could not do one push up. And with his support, I worked up to being able to do a hundred consecutive pushups, which was mind blowing.

• 42:20Rick Rubin?

  Um, so what changed between the weight loss and meeting Laird was I now see anything is possible and that you could train for anything. There's nothing you can't do. You can't be the best in the world at something, but you can be a lot better than you are at anything you want to put the time into learning, whatever it is, you could do anything. And that's a great, inspiring feeling, and I feel like I bring that into the art where I already had great confidence, but even more so, I now know anything is possible at any time.

• 43:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 43:03Rick Rubin?

  Just if you have to do the work.

• 43:06Lewis Howes?

  So this was 12 years ago when this started to happen, right? And so if I'm, got my wrath right, are you 60 right now?

• 43:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I just turned 60.

• 43:14Lewis Howes?

  Just turned 60 in March, or I just turned 40? If you could go back to your 40 year old self, what would the, the number one piece of advice be for you at 40? If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the products you were working on, the people in your life, knowing what you went through the last 20 years, what would you tell yourself then?

• 43:36Rick Rubin?

  I would always say just have as much fun as possible because we, um, I'm, I'm a workaholic by nature. And I love making things and I love making good things and a great deal of time and effort goes into that. And, uh, and I'm hard on myself in that way in that I, I have high expectations.

• 44:00Rick Rubin?

  And I think we can have fun too.

• 44:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course. Yeah. What brings you the most joy?

• 44:06Rick Rubin?

  I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best. Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air, walking on the beach,

• 44:21Rick Rubin?

  laughing together, reading together, watching movies together. You know, watching wrestling, I like pro wrestling.

• 44:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 44:31Rick Rubin?

  Pro wrestling with my sons, fun.

• 44:33Lewis Howes?

  That's great. Are you more of a wrestling fan or UFC now?

• 44:36Rick Rubin?

  Always been pro wrestling. UFC feels like they might hurt each other.

• 44:40Lewis Howes?

  They do hurt each other.

• 44:41Rick Rubin?

  That's why I like wrestling. It's like it's more, uh, everybody's on the same side.

• 44:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 44:47Rick Rubin?

  For it to be the best show.

• 44:48Lewis Howes?

  They wanted to be a win-win. Yeah.

• 44:49Rick Rubin?

  It's a win-win.

• 44:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you talked about that and you know, this documentary series about, you know, I love the video of you being like the ultimate promoter with the Beastie Boys and a commercial like just being this hype man promoter like, you know, how much has, I guess, pro wrestling influenced you as an artist?

• 45:11Rick Rubin?

  A lot, a lot, because it's a, it's a world where you never really know what's true. It's a world of mystery.

• 45:22Rick Rubin?

  And great skill is involved in what they're doing. And there's a story and it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other. Do they hate each other? They might be best friends. You know, it's like, we don't know, but sometimes they really do hate each other. And then the matches are different when they really hate each other, but you never know when it is. So there's this, there's a sense of, and I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment. See, it's funny. I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro wrestling. Because it's the most like the world. In the world, we don't really know what's true.

• 46:03Rick Rubin?

  Everybody has a facade. People put on a, you know, airs or a performance.

• 46:09Lewis Howes?

  A mask.

• 46:09Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, or the politician talks and we don't really know who they are. They say these things that are often written for them. We don't know. So there's this like performative aspect of the world that wrestling, that's what the world's really like. We say that the, you know, wrestling is fake. It's like, the world is fake and wrestling is real. That's what it is.

• 46:37Lewis Howes?

  I wanted to go back into what you talked about, what, you know, you mentioned transcendence. And I think you mentioned, you know, the universe having your back when you asked for an answer with this, you know, particular song with System of a Down.

• 46:52Lewis Howes?

  What's your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world? Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in a, you know, artists should be thinking in that way? Or what's your thoughts on it?

• 47:06Rick Rubin?

  I believe in it a million percent. It's something

• 47:14Rick Rubin?

  that I've experienced before I knew what it was. So I, so when I say it's like,

• 47:23Rick Rubin?

  I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure

• 47:31Rick Rubin?

  and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out.

• 47:38Rick Rubin?

  And that ends up being

• 47:43Rick Rubin?

  a manifestation mindset, but it didn't start for me that way. It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. I really care about it. I want it to be the best it could be for me and I'm excited to share it. And the results have shown me that you can manifest things. It happens.

• 48:04Rick Rubin?

  It's it, but I'll say when I do it, it's never based on that outcome.

• 48:09Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, what do you mean?

• 48:11Rick Rubin?

  I'm never asking for a result.

• 48:15Lewis Howes?

  What are you asking for?

• 48:16Rick Rubin?

  I'm asking for, to rise to the occasion to make the best thing that I can, for the thing that I make to be great. Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means. I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know, most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to realize that great means, it's a devotional, it's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God.

• 48:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 48:45Rick Rubin?

  If you're making, if you're making a gift to God, there's no greater, you can't put more into it than that. You know, you can't, what about the single? What about, what about what someone's gonna say? Who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God? That there's, you're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe.

• 49:12Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 49:13Rick Rubin?

  That's where it's at. I didn't know that. I came to realize that recently. Again, my word was greatness. Greatness. That was the word of what I was shooting for. But I've come to realize what it is.

• 49:25Lewis Howes?

  Wow, you have a whole, you know, kind of section about greatness and success in the creative act, a way of being, which is, which I loved your explanation in there. That is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say is a, is a pure gift of yours to God.

• 49:42Rick Rubin?

  Yes, and it's a, it's a gift of yourself to God. It's like, this is the best I can do. This is my offering. This is what I have to offer.

• 49:55Lewis Howes?

  If you think of a formula for manifesting as an artist, what would that formula be?

• 50:02Rick Rubin?

  I don't think there's a formula.

• 50:04Lewis Howes?

  Is there an art to manifesting?

• 50:07Rick Rubin?

  I don't know. I don't, I think.

• 50:12Rick Rubin?

  It sounds like a shortcut, and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always a

• 50:20Rick Rubin?

  a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do, and then really dedicating yourself.

• 50:33Lewis Howes?

  How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it? The right timing, because you could be like, I have this idea for this thing. Maybe it's the right time now, maybe it's five, 10 years away from now. How do, how do we really tap into that knowing?

• 50:47Rick Rubin?

  I think it's, it's, it's situational, and I think, again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you, it, it directs you. An example, I may have three different ideas that I'm, I'm excited about, and I kind of get them all going. And then one of them just seems to take off on its own. And one of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together. Can't find the right collaborators, impossible, some obstacles in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying now is not the time.

• 51:24Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, because, you know, I,

• 51:30Lewis Howes?

  I love this, and I also hear the other side of the, I guess, the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know Ryan Holiday, which the obstacle is the way, is his kind of stoic philosophy of like, when the obstacle is there and presents itself, and you also feel like this is something you want to do, like, you've got to kind of go through that pain and then, you know, overcome it.

• 51:51Rick Rubin?

  That is part of it. I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle, but I'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently, and there's another path that's going smoothly, and you feel the same about both of them, you know?

• 52:07Lewis Howes?

  Go for the effortless way, yeah.

• 52:08Rick Rubin?

  Well, pay attention, see when, when is the universe giving you a push? When is the, when is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it. I, I'm, I'm, I would never suggest not fighting through the work. It's, it's, it's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what. That said, sometimes it feels like

• 52:36Rick Rubin?

  Now's not the time.

• 52:37Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 52:38Rick Rubin?

  It's like all, everything you throw at it gets deflected.

• 52:42Lewis Howes?

  Right. But this other thing is guiding you.

• 52:45Rick Rubin?

  Taking its own, taking on its own life. Earlier you, you asked about what I perceive to be a shortcut. And

• 52:55Rick Rubin?

  a shortcut is how little can I get away with doing?

• 53:02Rick Rubin?

  And I think that the real question is, how much more can I give to the thing I'm making?

• 53:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 53:09Rick Rubin?

  What else can I give to it? And, and thinking in terms of how much more can we do? Not how much less can we do? It's not about shortcuts. It's not about getting it done. You know, it's not about a four hour work week. I loved it. You know, I loved it, but that's not, it's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be.

• 53:35Rick Rubin?

  Commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is.

• 53:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. That's beautiful, man.

• 53:49Lewis Howes?

  And so you, so you think that as artists, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great.

• 54:01Rick Rubin?

  Doing anything that's within our power. If it, it doesn't have to make sense.

• 54:10Rick Rubin?

  Nothing has to make sense. You know, it could be, when I wear these purple socks, I can write a better song. Great. Doesn't matter. Don't question it. Just do whatever works, do it.

• 54:26Lewis Howes?

  Is it really art if you're making money off of it?

• 54:30Rick Rubin?

  Absolutely. It doesn't, it doesn't matter. The, the out, it's not about the outcome. That's what I'm saying. Like you, if you don't make money or if you do make money, that has nothing to do with the art. Art is the art and then whatever happens after, happens after. If you make something that you love, I know if I make something I love.

• 54:49Rick Rubin?

  If more people like it, that's only a good thing. Now, I wouldn't change a word of it for someone else to like it.

• 55:00Rick Rubin?

  Do you know what I'm saying? It's like I make the thing I love. And then present it to the world. And then if the world likes it, great. And if more people like it than less, better. Why not? We're sharing something we love, something we think is beautiful. So the more people who embrace it. But again, I would never change it for anyone else because that's not what it's about. It's not about that.

• 55:24Lewis Howes?

  All right. With the artists you've worked with that you knew before they were global successes or their art, their music, or you know, was known by many.

• 55:37Lewis Howes?

  What did you see became their biggest challenge once they became extremely successful? Because a lot of artists, I would think, want their art to be liked and listened to by people. They want to make a living and more people like it typically. That's a good thing typically. But sometimes we see artists who have this incredible rise of success. And then seem to struggle with whether whatever depression, anxiety, maybe the pressure. Can I do this again? Will I be able to have these many hits again? What is the biggest challenge you see with artists becoming successful?

• 56:15Rick Rubin?

  Probably the biggest one is um. Nobody prepares you for success. And you may have a dream of what it's like. And you may think the success is gonna fill some hole you have in your soul. And then the six and you work your whole life for the success that's gonna fill the hole. And finally, you get the success and the whole is the same. And it's.

• 56:48Rick Rubin?

  It creates hopelessness.

• 56:50Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 56:51Rick Rubin?

  Cause you always you're working towards this goal that's gonna fix the problem.

• 56:58Rick Rubin?

  But it's the goal doesn't fix the problem. It, I would say.

• 57:05Rick Rubin?

  I can't, I can't, I can't say never, but I would say almost never fixes the problem.

• 57:13Lewis Howes?

  What fixes the problem for people?

• 57:14Rick Rubin?

  It's something else. It's, it's something inside themselves. It's something inside themselves.

• 57:22Lewis Howes?

  So do you think success can almost hurt someone more than before they have it, after they have it?

• 57:28Rick Rubin?

  It, it just, it depends on the person's temperament and, you know, for some people, being famous is the greatest thing, it's all they ever wanted. And for some people, they become famous and it's the worst nightmare. That's not what they wanted. They miss their privacy. They miss their anonymity. They miss being able to go and do whatever they want and not be singled out or pointed to or talk to, or e- even if people are nice, like it's a different, it's different. And no one teaches you how to do that, or you want to, you know, go do something with your family and then there are photographers there and it's, it's very awkward.

• 58:10Lewis Howes?

  What, what advice do you have for people that want to be famous? You know, success is one thing, but fame is another thing and they don't always happen together. For someone that wants to be famous, what advice would you have for them?

• 58:23Rick Rubin?

  I don't know. I would say, I would look at why that is. I would maybe see, you know, consider therapy.

• 58:32Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever done therapy yourself?

• 58:33Rick Rubin?

  I've done, yeah, I've done all kinds of therapy.

• 58:35Lewis Howes?

  What has been the biggest lesson you learned through therapy for you?

• 58:40Rick Rubin?

  I learned how to express my feelings clearly. Like when I, the first time I went to therapy, I didn't even know how to talk. I didn't know how I felt about anything.

• 58:49Lewis Howes?

  How old were you then?

• 58:50Rick Rubin?

  Maybe 26.

• 58:52Lewis Howes?

  So you learned how to express your feelings then?

• 58:54Rick Rubin?

  Yes. And to not only, yes, express them, but also to actually, you know, feel them in myself, to understand, not just feel like blocked off or frustrated or like what's beneath it, what's actually going on.

• 59:10Lewis Howes?

  And what is the biggest lessons that meditation or meditation practices has provided for you?

• 59:17Rick Rubin?

  It, it provides a quiet space where the chatter, you realize that your, your thoughts are not you. And that.

• 59:31Rick Rubin?

  Left your own devices, there'll be a lot of voices in your head, just going all the time, and they're not you.

• 59:41Rick Rubin?

  And they don't mean anything, and they're really repetitious. They're not working in your best interest.

• 59:49Lewis Howes?

  So if your thoughts aren't you, then what are you?

• 59:53Rick Rubin?

  I suppose you are the unchanging part of yourself that's always there.

• 1:00:03Rick Rubin?

  From, probably from the time you're born till the time you die, and maybe before and after. It's the

• 1:00:13Rick Rubin?

  it's what's really inside. It's not

• 1:00:20Rick Rubin?

  it's not changeable. It's what you came with.

• 1:00:27Lewis Howes?

  It's not the, it's not the, the thinking mind.

• 1:00:32Lewis Howes?

  It's almost being the observer of the thoughts.

• 1:00:35Rick Rubin?

  The one who sees the thoughts. That sounds right.

• 1:00:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Rick Rubin?

  Observing the thoughts. Thank you.

• 1:00:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's what I was hearing you say.

• 1:00:43Lewis Howes?

  When do you feel the most loved, Rick?

• 1:00:47Rick Rubin?

  I would say in general, I feel loved. It's, it's a good feeling. Like, I feel I feel spiritually connected. And that's a, that gives me a great feeling of peace.

• 1:01:01Lewis Howes?

  Where do you think you'd be in your life if you weren't a meditator?

• 1:01:07Lewis Howes?

  And where do you think you'd be if you allowed yourself to play with drugs and alcohol?

• 1:01:16Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I can't, I can't really predict. I would say meditation, without meditation, I don't know who I would be. It's such a big part of who I am.

• 1:01:27Rick Rubin?

  Informed so many everything. My, my understanding of the world is based on learning to meditate when I was young. So I don't know who I would be without that.

• 1:01:40Lewis Howes?

  Do you think you would have as much internal harmony and peace and external success without meditation?

• 1:01:48Rick Rubin?

  No, certainly not internal peace. I don't know about success.

• 1:01:53Lewis Howes?

  I wanted to ask you a question about comparison. You know, you mentioned the NBA basketball player needing to post more on social media based on what their team or the coaches or maybe not the coaches, but maybe the general managers wanted them to do. With artists, I see a lot of people competing and comparison, being in comparison versus just sharing their truths in an authentic way. And sometimes on social media, people are vulnerable because it gets attention and then they're over vulnerable. And then that becomes a game in itself. But in a world where everything is over saturated seeming, and there is a lot of competition for attention.

• 1:02:37Lewis Howes?

  How can an artist stay true to their inner voice? And not be in comparison, but be willing to collaborate and also see success in others and be okay with it?

• 1:02:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I think, I think staying out of it, you know, like not participating in that game. That's, it's someone else's game. That's someone else's game. I want to just play your own game. I can remember having a conversation with a, one of the biggest artists in the world, who described an album that they were going to make. And, and I had just seen them play in a stadium full of people screaming and crying. And it was not Paul McCartney.

• 1:03:21Rick Rubin?

  And the album that they were describing was one that none of those 70,000 people screaming and crying wanted to hear. It was clear to, it was clear to me.

• 1:03:30Rick Rubin?

  And, and I remember saying, that's not your hand. Like you play, when you're playing poker,

• 1:03:40Rick Rubin?

  it's not, you can't just play any cards. You play the, you play your hand based on the cards you've been dealt. So depending on the artist you are, like,

• 1:03:55Rick Rubin?

  It'd be like, there was a time, I think, when Metallica felt like, we don't really wanna be a heavy metal band. We wanna be a pop band, because pop bands were what's popular. And we have reached a ceiling being a heavy metal band. That did not go well. That was a bad idea. They weren't playing their hand. They weren't, they weren't embracing Metallica.

• 1:04:17Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 1:04:17Rick Rubin?

  And I think if you embrace your part, it's your best chance being true to yourself, not seeing, oh, well, those people over there are getting popular doing this other thing. I don't really like it, but it's really working for them. Maybe I could try that. Recipe for disaster.

• 1:04:37Lewis Howes?

  So don't chase something that's not your hand.

• 1:04:39Rick Rubin?

  No.

• 1:04:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, but it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong, you know, the example I'm thinking of is like Lady Gaga came onto the scene doing, I guess, pop music and became very popular, but then said, hey, I wanna do this more kinda jazzy, bluesy, like Tony Bennett thing.

• 1:04:57Rick Rubin?

  She was being true to herself.

• 1:04:58Lewis Howes?

  And that's what I wanna do, and I don't care if anyone likes it.

• 1:05:00Rick Rubin?

  Perfect.

• 1:05:01Lewis Howes?

  But it's what I wanna do with this season of my life.

• 1:05:03Rick Rubin?

  True to herself.

• 1:05:04Lewis Howes?

  And it may lose money.

• 1:05:06Rick Rubin?

  But she was not doing it because I think people like this.

• 1:05:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:05:11Rick Rubin?

  This is working over here, so I'm gonna try to catch their heat. She was not doing that.

• 1:05:17Lewis Howes?

  She probably knew people wouldn't like it, only a small audience.

• 1:05:20Rick Rubin?

  She didn't care.

• 1:05:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Rick Rubin?

  She didn't care.

• 1:05:21Lewis Howes?

  That was the thing.

• 1:05:22Rick Rubin?

  She was true to herself. This is what she wanted to do, and she did it.

• 1:05:25Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Were you in touch with her at all during that, that season, or?

• 1:05:30Rick Rubin?

  I can't remember if we talked about that.

• 1:05:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I'm curious, but that's, I'm curious if she's just said, hey, I'm gonna do this, and this is my thing, and.

• 1:05:37Rick Rubin?

  For sure.

• 1:05:38Lewis Howes?

  That's pretty cool.

• 1:05:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, no, I love it when an artist does something unexpected, whether it works or not. You know, it's like it's, they're being true to themselves.

• 1:05:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:05:46Rick Rubin?

  They get to be a better artist doing that.

• 1:05:49Lewis Howes?

  Whereas the other example is someone, you know, whether it's Metallica or whoever, is like chasing a bigger audience or something. Now, if that's true to them, that music, then cool, there's an audience there, go for it.

• 1:06:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. But it's also something about staying true to yourself in terms of, um.

• 1:06:08Rick Rubin?

  If you come up making a certain kind of music and you get popular making that music, a feeling of, well, this is all anybody wants from me. So even though I don't care about it anymore, I have to keep doing it. That's a disaster as well.

• 1:06:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:06:24Rick Rubin?

  It that doesn't work.

• 1:06:26Lewis Howes?

  Who has been the most musically gifted artist that you've been able to work with? Or maybe a few people that you're just like, they were so musically like talented and gifted. It was just.

• 1:06:38Rick Rubin?

  There've been a lot. Yeah, there've been a lot. I can say the first time I was in the studio with Carlos Santana and he started playing guitar, it felt like this is coming from another planet. Or John Frashanti, when he plays from the guitarist in the Red Hot Chili Peppers, when he plays guitar, it's a transcendent experience.

• 1:06:59Lewis Howes?

  Spiritual.

• 1:07:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. And then there's a drummer named Chris Dave, who's best drummer I've ever heard. And no matter what he plays, anything he plays is the greatest thing you've ever heard. The simplest thing. He can make anything interesting, just the way he plays it. Not the parts, doesn't have to be complicated, doesn't have to be, look at me. Just the touch, the feel, the tone is miraculous.

• 1:07:25Lewis Howes?

  Something you said before is the only goal is to be the best version of ourselves.

• 1:07:33Lewis Howes?

  Is there anything blocking you from becoming the best version of your yourself moving forward?

• 1:07:39Rick Rubin?

  I don't think so. Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm there.

• 1:07:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:07:43Rick Rubin?

  But I'm always striving, always. Anything I can do to get closer, I'll do.

• 1:07:48Lewis Howes?

  Well, yeah, you're, you're willing to learn something new. You're willing to try something on.

• 1:07:53Rick Rubin?

  Or change anything.

• 1:07:54Lewis Howes?

  Right. What do you think is the, the best habits that an artist can have? That maybe you have individually, but also that you see in other artists?

• 1:08:03Rick Rubin?

  I would say dedication to the craft, whatever, whatever their craft is. Dedicating themselves to it, taking it very seriously and.

• 1:08:13Rick Rubin?

  Being free to play in it, you know, like taking it seriously at the time you at the time when it warrants being taken seriously and having fun and being free in a play way to allow the thing that's worthy of being taken seriously to appear.

• 1:08:30Lewis Howes?

  Right. Taking it seriously and also allowing yourself to play in it as well.

• 1:08:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, well, the play always is where it starts. It starts in this playful way where nothing is serious and there are no stakes. And then through that, something appears. And then, in order to get that into condition to share, there's a grueling effort.

• 1:08:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, take that seriously.

• 1:08:53Rick Rubin?

  And sometimes it's, sometimes you do a grueling effort and then you realize, oh, that thing that happened the first day, that's the best version of it. But you don't know that until you've maybe banged your head against a wall for six months working on it. And then you realize, you know what? That first five minutes was the best.

• 1:09:08Lewis Howes?

  That was it.

• 1:09:09Rick Rubin?

  You can't know that until you go past, you know, you have to work past it to see this was the one.

• 1:09:17Lewis Howes?

  This is the best version. How often is it the first version is usually the best for you?

• 1:09:22Rick Rubin?

  Um, I'll say the first version is often, if it's not the best, it's very instructive and holds a magic in it that is to be retained no matter what else changes. You know, a big part of it is just not screwing up what's good.

• 1:09:40Lewis Howes?

  Not messing it up.

• 1:09:41Rick Rubin?

  No, there are all these stories of, you know, the demos being better than the album. It's easy to not know why something is good. You know, you make a demo and you think, okay, now when I get the professional musicians to play, it's going to be great. It's going to be that much better. Maybe yes, maybe no. We don't know. We never know. We never know what's going to happen when we do anything.

• 1:10:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Rick Rubin?

  So to stay neutral and to keep every iteration along the way and be willing to look back after you just spent months refining something to then say, you know what? It was better three months ago. Throw that all away.

• 1:10:17Lewis Howes?

  Wow. The Creative Act, A Way of Being. This is a powerful book. I think it's been on the New York Times Bestseller list for forty-two plus weeks in a row, I believe, right now. This has been a game changer for so many different creatives, artists, and also people that don't think they're artists who have been buying this and tapping into their creativity, allowing themselves to express themselves more fully, more openly, more freely, more honestly and vulnerably. And I want to, I want to recommend this to anyone watching or listening to get a copy or two and give one to a friend. Really think about who in your life do you know has great talent, great artistry, or untapped

• 1:10:58Lewis Howes?

  talent that they should be expressing that more and giving that gift to God and to the universe, as you say so beautifully. Again, think about who in your life needs this book. There's so many great, the thing I love about it is it's, you know, it's a bigger book, but every chapter is short, you know, and for me, I like short bits of wisdom that I can just open up at any time and read a few paragraphs and I've got something. Open it randomly and read something. See what comes up. This was the, this is the first thing here. I don't even have this earmarked, but I've got a lot of earmarked. This says, "In the end, the sum total of, of the essence of our individual works may serve as a reflection.

• 1:11:41Lewis Howes?

  The closer we get to the true essence of each work, the sooner they will somehow at some point in time provide clues as to our own." That was, that was the first thing that opened up for me. That's cool. This is page 240, 245, so make sure you guys check that out. But there's, I love the whole section on, you've got sections on greatness, you've got a success, you've got about listening, you know, inspiration. You talk about inspiration, it appears in a moment.

• 1:12:12Lewis Howes?

  And what, what defines inspiration is the quality and quantity of the download at a speed so instantaneous, it seems impossible to process. Inspiration is the rocket fuel powering our work. It is a universal conversation we yearn to be a part of. And I think that's really cool because so many of us are chasing inspiration, but a lot of times it comes to us, right? It comes. And it, and it's almost like getting out of the way and allowing for it to come in. That's why I love in the docu-series that you're a part of, Shangri-La, it's like you, you have an intentional energy of your environment. You create a space for it to come. And I think that's really cool. And a lot of people aren't.

• 1:12:57Lewis Howes?

  I think thinking about their environments of spatial surroundings, their environment of people's surroundings, their environment of what they consume of music or visual content or what they're reading. They're not intentional with it as much as I think they could be, which you're extremely intentional to allow for inspiration to come. Isn't that right?

• 1:13:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, we're all, um, all we are is made up of everything we take in. So the places we're in, the people we're around, the, the media we consume. That's all we are. So really curate what comes in for your highest, um, for your highest good.

• 1:13:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And in the, uh, the Shangri-La, the, the docu-series, you know, in your recording studio and in your facility, it's all white, you know, there's no TVs, there's no clocks. The floor is white, the walls are white. You have this in, in space. That is kind of like this void, you know, and I think of meditation, I, I really try to think about being no one, no thing, nowhere, no time. Uh, so that inspiration can come to me as opposed to having the noise constantly distracting me or influencing me to think something. And so you create a white blank canvas for people to express

• 1:14:21Lewis Howes?

  uh, and develop their art. And I think it's really beautiful. I mean, you guys paint the floors like after someone comes in and does their work. You repaint the floor so that it's not dirty from the last artists of the past. You create a blank canvas every time an artist comes in, which is just so cool to think about. And, um, I love the intentionality behind how you allow for space to be evolved for people to draw inspiration. It's really, really cool. I want people to watch that docu-series called The Shangri-La, but also again, get a copy of this book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. I've got, uh, three final questions for you, Rick. And again, I'm so grateful for your time here and for showing up and, uh, just being.

• 1:15:04Lewis Howes?

  Being an inspiration to so many people and specifically in this interview right now. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of our conversations. It's called the three truths. So it's a hypothetical question and scenario. Imagine you get to, uh, you know, Laird and Gabby continue to keep you fit and healthy and you get to extend your life as long as you want to be. Um, but eventually it's the last day. You can live as long as you want, but it's the last day for you in the future. And you get to create and learn and experience all the things you want to experience from now at 60 to, till that moment. Um, but for whatever reason, it's your last day.

• 1:15:44Lewis Howes?

  And you have to take everything with you, everything you've created, everything you've worked on, everything you've written, everything you've spoken. We don't have access to it in this world anymore, hypothetical scenario. But you get to leave behind three lessons and this is all we would have to remember your information by. And I call it the three truths. What would be those three truths for you that you would leave behind?

• 1:16:09Rick Rubin?

  I think it might just be one. It, it might just be be true to yourself. Know, know yourself as best as you can to be true to who you are. And allow that person to evolve and change. Um, as the conditions change and to not be inflexible.

• 1:16:34Lewis Howes?

  I love that. I want to acknowledge you, Rick, for, I mean, putting this out there. I heard you talk about being kind of like a grueling process and some challenges here and there, some friction, some obstacles to get it out. It wasn't like this effortless thing. Um, and I'm, I'm assuming it might've been harder than an album, putting an album out there. Um. I want to acknowledge you for sharing your gift with the universe and with all of us, sharing your greatness with so many people because you have, you know, a lifetime of wisdom and information and lessons and to put it together in this way so that we can understand it is really powerful. So I acknowledge you for creating this work of art,

• 1:17:18Lewis Howes?

  for coming on the show and talking so openly and honestly, the way you have been and you've, I've seen you on a lot of my friends' shows as well and for being an inspiration to so many people. People value you. They appreciate you. They respect you and I hope you feel the love from so many people. And I just wanted to acknowledge you personally for that. This question, you, you kind of answered it already, but I'm going to ask you again and see what comes up for you.

• 1:17:48Lewis Howes?

  What is your definition of greatness?

• 1:17:51Rick Rubin?

  Greatness is what you make in a devotional act for

• 1:17:59Rick Rubin?

  a higher power beyond any worldly ideas of success.

• 1:18:06Lewis Howes?

  I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on Apple podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels, at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life,

• 1:18:46Lewis Howes?

  then make sure to sign up for the greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.