Chelsea Handler on How to Make Drastic Changes, Accept Your Mistakes, and What Turning 50 Means to Her!

Chelsea Handler (comedian, television host, bestselling author) opens up about her transformative journey, from her powerful lessons on sisterhood learned from a tense meeting with Jane Fonda to the moment she realized her tough exterior was holding her back. Mayim breaks down her latest book, “I’ll Have What She’s Having” and Chelsea’s dating history, including her break-up with Jo Koy. Chelsea reveals how confronting deep-rooted anger fueled by childhood grief led her to therapy and spirituality, giving her the strength to evolve and embrace new forms of healing. Plus, she shares how turning 50 has reshaped her perspective on life, relationships, and finding freedom in saying "no"—a life-changing shift that’s led her to enjoy the freedom of not having kids while still embracing the joys of being a "stepmom" to many. Chelsea Handler’s newest book, I’ll Have What She’s Having: https://www.chelseahandler.com/book Chelsea Handler’s podcast, the Dear Chelsea Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dear-chelsea/id1563085598 Chelsea Handler's Las Vegas Residency, Chelsea at The Chelsea: https://www.ticketmaster.com/artist/1048344?venueId=189310 BialikBreakdown.com https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ YouTube.com/mayimbialik https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTOocPnDh2YQZZwh86K2OxA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  My whole personality, my whole attitude is kind of like, don't give a shit about what anybody thinks. Bravado got me so much and got me so far in my career. And then around 40, I hit a wall. Nothing was working for me in the same way. I started to develop nerves and panic attacks. Enough for me to be jolted. I wasn't thinking about what's underneath that anger. I realized in therapy, that was a lot of delayed grief from my childhood. It was really old stuff that was coming to a head. That kind of anger had a place in my life and was a motivating factor for me to get to the next level. You're trying to retain the great parts of your personality that are great, that people

• 0:44Speaker 00

  do like and that aren't hurtful to you or others, while also blossoming into this newer version of yourself that is also going to be sharp, edgy, funny, and known for all of the things that you're known for. Almost auditioning different versions of personalities to be like, which one do I like the most? I don't think of it as a loss. I think of it as fine tuning an instrument.

• 1:11Mayim Bialik?

  Before we dive into today's episode, I'm going to ask you to do something very quick, very easy, but super helpful. Going to ask you to hit the subscribe button. You see it? Go get it. Hit the subscribe button. It just takes a second, but it means a lot to us. You have probably noticed from all of the comments that we get, many people find that listening to MBB regularly is helping them feel happier, healthier, more inspired. And you know what? That actually is why we are doing this. It makes my heart swell to hear that so many of you are feeling inspired. So subscribing to this show, whether you're listening on YouTube or whether you're listening

• 1:53Mayim Bialik?

  to it through a podcast app, it's the easiest way to ensure that you will never miss an episode. So we don't want you to miss a single one and you don't want to miss a single one. So you'll get notified as soon as a new episode drops. All you have to do is subscribe and share this episode with someone if you enjoy it. We're trying to spread the word. Help us do that. The best way to support our show is by subscribing. So do it now. Thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate you. Let's get back to the good stuff. Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik. I'm Jonathan Cohen. Welcome to our breakdown. This is the place where we break things down, so you don't have to. Today, we're going to be breaking down what it's like to reinvent yourself.

• 2:33Jonathan Cohen?

  To choose yourself and believe in yourself, the next version of yourself.

• 2:37Mayim Bialik?

  Has someone ever called you out for behavior that was egregious or offensive? And have you ever been able to take that information and go on a journey to find out where that behavior came from, how to not repeat it, and how to move on to the next best version of yourself? Our guest today is Chelsea Handler, someone we have had on The Breakdown before. Her seventh book, I'll Have What She's Having, is coming out today. It's also her 50th birthday today. Happy birthday, Chelsea. So, we're very happy to be able to share with you so much of her journey that started with being called out by Jane Fonda for her behavior and led her on a journey through

• 3:20Mayim Bialik?

  therapy, something she had never embarked on before, and what therapy revealed to her that she was able to transform. She's also going to talk about her very public love life that many of us watched over the last several years, and what she's learned about what it means to choose to not have kids, but how you can still be part of a sisterhood and really just a wonderful community that she's created for herself.

• 3:48Jonathan Cohen?

  She's also going to describe how to keep her vibes high and have good energy, which I love. She's getting hippie.

• 3:54Mayim Bialik?

  Also, before we welcome Chelsea, I want to mention her podcast, Dear Chelsea Podcast, and she is currently in a Las Vegas residency. It is Chelsea at the Chelsea, at the Cosmopolitan. She's making history as the venue's first female comedian residency, which is incredibly impressive. Such a pleasure to welcome again to The Breakdown, Chelsea Handler. Break it down.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Hi, hi, guys. Good morning. How are you?

• 4:24Mayim Bialik?

  Good. Welcome back.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 4:27Mayim Bialik?

  You're one of very few people that we have had more than once on The Breakdown. We're very happy to talk to you again.

• 4:32Speaker 00

  Oh, no. Is that an indicator of your interviewing technique?

• 4:36Jonathan Cohen?

  People run after that.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  Uh oh. Uh oh. Well, I'm always happy to be a second time caller and a second time guest.

• 4:45Mayim Bialik?

  This is airing on your birthday, so happy 50th birthday.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Yay. Happy birthday to me. Thank you. How old are you, Mayim?

• 4:52Mayim Bialik?

  I am months behind you. We were born, I was born in 75 as well. I'm born at the end of 75. So I will be turning 50 after you.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  I feel, I felt like we were the same year, so I was right. Okay, good. Well, happy early birthday to you as well.

• 5:08Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you. We are here to talk about I'll Have What She's Having, which is a really, really... I've read all of your books and I've enjoyed all of your books. I happen to love, well, I love you and I happen to love the way you write and the way you tell stories. This book is a tender, it's a tender and a funny take on a variety of things that have kind of happened to you in this phase of your life. And I wonder if you can start us off with the Jane Fonda confrontation that happened.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  Okay. Yes, happily. So I was at a Jane Fonda party, one of her parties, and

• 5:52Speaker 00

  it was a few months later, I had gone with my friends and a few months later, I got it, I got an email from Jane Fonda saying, "Hi, Chelsea. You may have noticed, I saw you at the John Lewis event." There's Shonda Rhimes had had a fundraiser for John Lewis, our former congressman,

• 6:13Speaker 00

  who is no longer with us, and said, "You may have noticed that I was a little cold to you at the John Lewis event at Shonda Rhimes's house." And I, and I was like, "Yeah, I did kind of notice." But at that point in my life, I just had, wasn't very... Tuned in to when people weren't into me. Like, it didn't really matter to me. You know what I mean? I just kind of was like, oh, well, whoopsie doodle. Who cares, you know, about that person? That kind of little arrogance, just attitude. And so she sent me an email, basically asking me to come over for dinner. In lieu of, I mean, not in lieu of that, as a response to that. She's like, I'd love to talk to you in person. And I was like, oh, OK, sure, sure. I'll come over for dinner. And she's like, tonight at 7:30. And I'm like, uh-oh. Like, I felt like I was getting a stern, you know, like, talking to,

• 6:58Speaker 00

  which is exactly what I was getting. And I went over there, and I remember her chef asked me if I wanted a martini. And I'm like, no, no, no. Like, you know, I was like, I better be coherent if I'm about to get yelled at or schooled or whatever. And she basically told me, I can't believe the way you acted at my party. You were really harsh and rude to multiple people. Multiple people complained about you. I don't know what drugs you were on. And I don't either. I don't really remember what I was on. But I don't know why you would have ever, you just were carrying this really dark cloud around with you. And I was mortified because I was sitting across the table from Jane Fonda, being told that I was an asshole and that I had behaved badly.

• 7:43Speaker 00

  And I, and I had just started therapy. So I, I knew not to be defensive. Like, I had already learned that being defensive means you're wrong. Because if you're right, you don't have to argue. You don't have to defend yourself. You know the truth. And in that moment, all I remember is, don't be defensive. Just accept what she's saying. As much as I wanted to be defensive and, oh, you know, there's a million excuses you could find for bad behavior. I was like, no, no, no, no. This is Jane Fonda. Like, be the person that you want to be in this moment and listen to her. And so she said all of these things. It was really, really hard to hear, you know, embarrassing things about yourself and your behavior. And, but-

• 8:28Speaker 00

  Even through that mortification and through that pathos, almost, I understood the bigger overarching message in that moment, which was sisterhood, which was her being a sister to me and actually taking the time to call me over to her house, to summons me, if you will, to have that conversation with me. Because so many people, especially in our world, don't want to deal with that. They don't want to deal with conflict. They don't want to deal with having difficult conversations. And because she took that time to have that conversation with me, she set up, like, she set me up for so much success because A, I was never gonna,

• 9:11Speaker 00

  she was never gonna have to talk to me again. Like, I was, if Jane Fonda tells you that you're misbehaving, like, it's my job to go and correct that behavior immediately. And B, it told me what, it kind of laid out groundwork for like, the kind of woman that I want to be to other women. And the kind of, which is a sister. Like, I want to be a sister to everyone. And, and she kind of demonstrated that for me. And it really, now is such a, I'm so grateful for. And even in that moment, I was able to find gratitude, even though I wasn't that familiar with the word gratitude at that point in my life. I was able in that moment to see, oh, wow, this is something serious, something to pay attention to and something to work on.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  And also, thank you so much for taking the time to care enough about me.

• 10:00Mayim Bialik?

  So when you go back to thinking about the evening that caused her to summons you, even though you may not remember what you were on or not on, who was that Chelsea? Like, what was she describing?

• 10:16Speaker 00

  She was describing someone who was just not grounded, who was just, you know how, there's this saying that Oprah uses all the time, like, everything works for you until it doesn't. Or something will work for you until it doesn't. Like, my whole personality and my whole bravado and my whole attitude and this kind of like, free-flying, don't give a shit about what anybody thinks bravado.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  Attitude got me so much in my career and got me so far in my career. And then at around 40, it just, I hit a wall. And it was like, nothing was working for me in the same way. I started to develop like nerves and panic attacks. I mean, I wouldn't say multiple panic attacks, but enough for me to be jolted. And I realized, I realized in therapy, you know, that was a lot of delayed grief from my childhood. My brother had passed away. I wrote a separate book about all of that. But it was what forced me into therapy and the Trump administration, the first Trump administration. All, I had all my anger hanging on that. I was like, oh, I hate them. I hate the Trumps. I can't believe this person could become our president.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  And so I transferred all my anger to that and made it seem like that was what was embroiling inside of me. But it was really old stuff that was kind of coming to a head. And the way I was acting at that party was because I was so out of touch with myself. You know, I wasn't being introspective. I wasn't thinking about why I'm so angry or who is my anger really about and what's underneath that anger and all the things that you learn during therapy.

• 11:54Mayim Bialik?

  It almost feels, I don't want to say it feels like a loss for us, but so much of you and who you are and what you've been able to trailblaze, in many cases, places that other women weren't allowed in, was because of this drive, this ability to sort of put all that shit aside and be like braver than brave. So what is the new, like, what is this other version of you feel like? Is it that you've already achieved that, so you don't need to have those components of you anymore? Like, I wouldn't want to change the way you were, but also I feel bad that you were living in pain and grief.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  Right. But I think of it as like, I don't think of it as a li, like a loss. I think of it as like fine tuning an instrument. Like, I wanted to get to the next level of where I, of what my potential could be. And that kind of anger and that kind of turbulence had a Place in my life and was kind of a motivating factor for me to get to the next level. And by the way, that wasn't overnight. That was two years of therapy, then two years of post-therapy. It's such a process therapy. It's like, I went for two years intensely and then, and then you have to absorb all of the stuff that you learn. And then, once you absorb it, then you have to apply it. And you're trying to like, you're trying to retain the great parts of your personality

• 13:20Speaker 00

  that do, are great, that people do like and that aren't hurtful to you or others, while also kind of blossoming into this newer version of yourself that is also going to be sharp, edgy, funny, and known for all of the things that you're known for. So it was a lot of like, almost auditioning different versions of personalities to be like, which one do I like the most?

• 13:43Jonathan Cohen?

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• 13:45Mayim Bialik?

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• 15:05Jonathan Cohen?

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• 15:15Mayim Bialik?

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• 16:26Jonathan Cohen?

  Experience new standards and comfort and support with Honeylove. One of the hardest parts of the note from Jane sounds like the dark cloud part.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:36Jonathan Cohen?

  Like, being mean to people, you can understand, or, oh, I should be nicer, but like, the other dark cloud is so nebulous, you're like, ah, people just see that? You know, did that hurt?

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think the answer is yes. You know, the answer is yes. You know, when you're in a bad space, or you're in a bad headspace, you know that energy that you bring around you, or that is around you. And it's just like when you have good vibes, that people are attracted to that. There's magnetism in both. And so, you know, the idea of like, someone being in a bad mood and thinking that they can push through something, it's like, you can a couple times, but eventually, like, everything starts to show, all the cracks show. So, yeah, you can buck up and do something when you're in pain, or you're sick, or whatever, but like, if you're... Mentally not where you want to be, that starts to like wear on you pretty quickly in all of your endeavors.

• 17:29Mayim Bialik?

  I wonder what your perspective is on sort of the drugs and alcohol of it. Because so much of, you know, your writing, your books, you know, what you're so open about has been the the joy of being inebriated, the joy of indulging, the joy of having that, you know, that veil lifted, which, you know, is not something you've ever been ashamed about. And and throughout the book, I don't feel like it's something you're ashamed about. You talk about both the recreational, you know, aspects of drugs. And you also talk about the incredibly therapeutic aspects of drugs and sort of lifting that veil.

• 18:12Mayim Bialik?

  How do you feel at 50 about sort of the the life you had in terms of, you know, recreational drugs? And how you feel about it now in this kind of, you know, Chelsea 2.0?

• 18:25Speaker 00

  I feel like drugs are great. I love them like they're for me. They're not for everyone, but they're for me. And I have a great relationship with them. I understand that there are lots of difficulties and lots of people cannot have healthy relationships with drugs. And I write this in the book, like when I'm healthy and I'm stable and I'm grounded, my relationship with drugs, that's the way they show up on me. Show up on me, fun, healthy, good time. If I'm in a bad or dark place and I choose to do drugs and and, you know, and that's not a good time to do that. And I it it shows up in your body in a dark, more odious way. And I feel firmly about that, like I know.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  I mean, I've been using drugs, you know, in good times and bad for my whole life. Like I've taken long breaks or I've overdone it or, you know, every variation. So I'm pretty under I have a pretty strong understanding of what how my system cooperates with drugs and bringing things in. And I have to be like, I won't, I won't even have a drink if I'm in a bad mood. Do you know what I mean? Like, I just know not to put a hat on a hat. Like, it's got to be a celebratory or. You know, healing component, you know, some sort of medicinal component. If you want to do something when you're not in a great state of mind. But that's my feeling about drugs and alcohol. Like, if you're in a good spot, you can cooperate with them pretty easily. And if you're not in a good spot, they'll take you down.

• 19:53Mayim Bialik?

  You have a section in the book where you talk about how exhausting therapy was. And you said, this is a quote. "Every new development or idea led to a period of intense self-awareness, followed by waves of acute self-consciousness coupled with endless self-recrimination." And you go on to talk about how that's definitely was an overcorrection and there's a kind of calibration needed. But a lot of people who might be listening either don't understand what therapy is for or fear that therapy is just endless self-recrimination. Can you talk a little bit about that really difficult process of, I mean, my experiences, even after being in therapy for 30 years, more.

• 20:37Speaker 00

  Well, we are Jewish. You are Jewish, Mayim, so.

• 20:39Mayim Bialik?

  It's true. It's like part of the, it's just part of the birthright. But sometimes I will. I'll see something in a different way and then it's all I can see. And I find every point in my life where that was the motivating factor or that was the hole that I was trying to fill, right? Can you talk a little bit about this process and sort of where you ended up with it?

• 20:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. You know, therapy is the gift of self-awareness. Like, you're getting the gift of someone who is not in your life telling you to look at this, to look at this. How is your behavior impacting others? How does it impact yourself? Why do you react this way? Why are you guarded around the idea of love or men? Or that's just like, to me, I'm always like, men, relationship. Like, that's the sideshow. That's a side hustle. Like, my hustle is like women, life, my family, being generous, you know, having this big, loud life. And like, a man, sure, you can come along for the ride, but don't get too comfortable, you know? But like, what's the psychology behind all of that?

• 21:39Speaker 00

  Where did all of these kind of positions, this positioning come from? And I think like one, the self-recrimination, the self, you know, all of the stuff that comes with therapy, which is a necessary evil, I would argue. I mean, wouldn't you say so?

• 21:55Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  It's not easy, but it's necessary.

• 21:58Mayim Bialik?

  It's not, it's not good medicine.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  But it's long-term medicine. Like, it. And what I realized is after you get through the phases of being pissed at yourself for doing something a certain way, or not being awake enough to know this is why you're responsive, or you're so reactive. For me, I had no patience for anyone ever. I mean, that's still pretty tricky for me, you know, when I'm dealing with dumb people. I don't have a lot of patience for that. But I have a lot more sympathy and empathy for people who are stupid to be like, okay, it's not their fault. Some people, I would argue, it is their fault. But also to stop berating yourself, you know what I mean, about the past. And I think that is one incredible thing about turning our age that we are both

• 22:42Speaker 00

  going to be this year, is that like, you're not so focused on the past, you're not so focused on the future. You've at an age where you can actually be in the moment of who you are. I'm not going to beat myself up about past mistakes. And when therapy brought up all that stuff, and I would look at it, like, oh, this time I was such an asshole, or this time I was so insensitive. You get to a point where you're like, that's not helpful either. Like, I want to be a spiritual person. I want to be light and loving. So while you have made mistakes, they don't define who you are. They're actually like a propeller in moving you towards making sure the next time you come around that circle of events, you behave in a better way. You make a new impression. You know, you do what you know

• 23:25Speaker 00

  better, you do better. So I think all of that, you don't ever want to get stuck in self-recrimination and being like, I'm the worst, I'm the worst. Like, that's not helping anyone, including you. So you have to be forgiving, like, you know, you have to be forgiving of yourself while also being really forgiving of others. And that's also a really useful tool to have in life, is to be able to forgive people, you know, even when they do hurt you.

• 23:49Mayim Bialik?

  A lot of the conversation around this seems to kind of culminate with what you sort of describe as a different aspect of growing up. And I don't like this notion that you were not grown up, or that women who, for example, don't have kids, are not growing up, or don't have to deal with real life. So I don't, I don't want to come from that sort of framework. But you talk a lot about how this whole process was about a kind of emotional maturation. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit at 50 about what it feels like to be growing up in this different way at this stage of life?

• 24:31Speaker 00

  I think that growing up is, I never wanted to grow up. I wanted to grow up, but I didn't want to grow up. You know what I mean? I wanted to be an adult and I didn't want, I wanted like, I didn't want to be a kid attached to everything, like my family. I didn't want to, I felt like that they were keeping me back, you know? Like they were holding me down, my family. Like I wanted to be free like a bird. But I also, now I'm in a state of like, oh no, growing up means so much more. It means not giving a shit about the past. It means not belaboring the bad decisions you made. It means choosing things that make you happy, rather than choosing to make other people happy. It means saying no to things when, when there's scarcity. Or if you're worried about your next career move and you're like, well, this doesn't really

• 25:16Speaker 00

  fit. It means saying no and having the confidence to know that I've, I'm the one who got me here. Like it's, there's enough, there's now like 50 years of scientific data that I'm sitting here because of my reliability and my ability to rely on myself. So that's maturity. That's knowing like even in my moments where I'm not feeling positive, I'm not feeling self-assured, or I'm feeling insecure, or whatever the, you know, all of the icks. Whenever I'm feeling that way, I believe maturity really is knowing that that's temporary and that I am going to feel strong and confident again. And it's always right around the corner.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  Like it's having that wisdom of life and not getting stuck in the ugly moments, even knowing, and not getting stuck in the high moments either. Knowing all of that is like, it's flashy and it's, you know, ephemeral. And that, that to me is being like mature. Me saying to a man that I'm dating, like, yeah, hey, we've got a great thing going, but like, don't get it twisted. I'm a free spirit. If I go to Europe and I find someone that I want to have sex with, that's going to happen too. Like I make sure all my bases are covered now. Like to me, that's mature, you know? I don't want to lie, cheat, or steal. I just want to be upfront with everybody. And if you can't handle my honesty, then, then we're not, you're not for me either.

• 26:42Mayim Bialik?

  I got very emotional when you were talking about this aspect of growth. And one of the reasons is... You know, I'm friends with Eliza Schlesinger and, you know, through my sort of following your career, like, there's certain women that I feel like, gosh, they've got something that a lot of us don't have, right? I include myself in the us. Like, there's a boldness, there's a confidence. You know, I think Eliza once said to me, she was single at the time, this before she got married, and, you know, she said, "If a man is in my way, like, get the fuck out of my way." Like, you know, like, "I will achieve what I..." And I was like, "Oh, my God." Like, it didn't even occur to me to sort of like, think it, like, it felt wrong to think that in my head, right?

• 27:26Mayim Bialik?

  And so, one of the things, and, you know, this is kind of on a more personal note, but you choose to talk about it in the book. You know, you were in a relationship that literally brought me to tears when I heard about it, because I was so happy for you. Not because the definition of someone's happiness should be, "She's in a relationship," but there was something so joyful and so victorious about the way you loved and the way you chose to allow us, as the public, to see you loving. And you talk about it in the book as such a, you know, complicated and delicate moment of your life. But I wonder, you know, a lot of women feel they're too much.

• 28:08Mayim Bialik?

  And a lot of women feel that, no matter how much work we do, it's still really, really difficult to find a guy who can handle it, who can handle us, who can handle the intensity, handle the pace. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about where that has settled now for you, now that you're not in that relationship? And I know you have other relationships, you will have other relationships. But in terms of, you know, the beauty that you describe about the way you showed up for the relationship and could experience love, I wonder how that feels when you think about sort of what that means to so many of us, to see you that way.

• 28:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, that was really, really, you know, we're talking about Joe Coy, and that was a very public relationship. I mean, I've had a couple of public relationships. That was the most... People were so happy that I was so in love.

• 28:59Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, I cried when it ended. I cried, I cried when it started, and I cried when it ended.

• 29:05Speaker 00

  Oh, I love that. I mean, that's so sweet. Um, and yes, people were, that reaction was just so, I had never experienced that kind of support system from the public, you know? I mean, I'm used to getting criticized. I'm not used to being like, "We're so happy to see you happy. No one ever expected this." I'm like, "Oh, God, okay. I love it, too." So, there was an aphrodisiac in that, you know what I mean? It's in and of itself. But at the end of the day, our relationship wasn't, I would have had to compromise who I am as a woman. And me compromising myself as a woman feels like I would be putting every woman at risk. Do you know what I mean? Like, when I think about decisions I make for myself, I think about all women, and

• 29:48Speaker 00

  I think about my nieces, and I think about what I would tolerate for any of those people. And it doesn't even have to be someone I'm friends with, you know? I would do that for a stranger. I would consider them a woman that was in need. I would want to do anything I could to get her out of any hole that she was in. So, like, when I think about the standards that I have, I always kind of consider, would this be okay for one of my nieces, one of my sisters, you know, another woman in my life? And then I also realized, like, me taking a step in the direction of choosing myself rather than choosing the relationship, because I didn't want to end that relationship. I really didn't, like... I didn't want you to end it.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  I didn't want to either. And so, when I had to, to make that kind of big girl, like, "Put your pants on," and I was doing this podcast with Glennon and Abby, Glennon Doyle and Abby, you know, we can do hard things. And I was like, I had already rescheduled three times because of scheduling and all that nonsense, and it was literally like three days after we broke up, and I was in no condition to do it. And I just thought, "You're a woman. You're a big girl. Just fucking do this, and be honest, and just be real. Like, that's your thing. You can do this." And I did that, and the response to that was so overwhelming, and so lovely, and so many women in my DMs and just saying, "Thank you so much for your honesty." And it was just, literally just the right message I needed, like, to know that how many

• 31:18Speaker 00

  women responded to that, and knowing that I, too, am someone who has to make decisions like that, and I choose me. Like, no one else is gonna choose me but me, you know? I'm choosing me. And, and... And I remember having this Asterian astrologist reading in Greece. I left to Greece. I was supposed to go on this trip with Joe Coy and instead I went to Greece with some friends. And my assistant said, oh, you have this guy Jade Luna. You've had this appointment for six months. Have you gone to him? No. Okay. And she goes, I was on a waiting list for six months. You don't use your real name. You just give them your birth date and your time of day, a time of birth.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  And this is like old school astrology, not Western astrology. And I was like, okay. And she goes, if you go to Greece, you do you want me to move that appointment? I'm like, I can't wait another six months for that. And she's like, okay, but then you have to get up at three in the morning to do this phone call with this astrologist. And I was like, oh, that's a bit despey. I'm like, but I guess I am desperate. So I get on the phone with this guy and he has no idea who I am until the very end when I divulge that. And he gives me this whole reading about who I am as a person, why I'm on this earth, what my purpose is, all about using my voice, that my voice is my instrument, that I'm here for women, you know, all of the things that are true about me. And nothing about love comes up, right?

• 32:46Speaker 00

  And this was shortly after my breakup. And at the end, he said, do you have any questions? And I said, can you tell me anything about men in my world? Like about love? Am I going to be with someone or what? And he said, you are queen with or without a man. And your purpose in this lifetime has nothing to do with men. They might be like, you know, the B story, but they're never going to be the A story for you. And I thought, that makes a lot of sense to me and reaffirmed the decision I had made a few weeks earlier, you know, when I ended that relationship. So.

• 33:23Speaker 00

  So I guess to answer your question, the way I look at it is it's not my priority. It's ancillary and it's great and I love men and I'm seeing someone now and he's adorable and I love him, but that doesn't define me and is just, you know, it's something that I enjoy.

• 33:42Mayim Bialik?

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• 34:24Mayim Bialik?

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• 35:09Mayim Bialik?

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• 35:36Speaker 00

  Joy.

• 35:37Mayim Bialik?

  Um, that's such a beautiful, it's such a beautiful way to frame it. I guess my follow-up question would be just choosing yourself.

• 35:46Mayim Bialik?

  Always mean that you're not partnered? Or can you choose yourself in the context of a relationship where it feels safe?

• 35:53Speaker 00

  I think that can be true. Yeah, I think that's a great point. And I think it absolutely can be true. If you're with someone who understands and respects the fact that you are able to choose yourself in the moment and not choose the relationship, then sure.

• 36:09Mayim Bialik?

  There's a running theme in sort of the way you speak. And it's also throughout the book. It's not explicit, but I'm really curious if you'll get more explicit. There's something about spirituality that seems to have entered the way that you think and frame things. Is there something specific that happened? Is there something specific that you've incorporated? Was there a moment of clarity? Was there a moment of revelation? Where did that come from? And what's sort of the through line now?

• 36:39Speaker 00

  I think first, like, therapy, I went to therapy for two years. That was like my gateway into meditation, into spirituality, into starting. I just wanted to like unearth all of this stuff that I always thought was kind of woo woo, LA, dummy, chakra, like, please, I don't want to hear about chakras. I don't want to hear about energy work and healing. I just find all those people to be a bit much. And so I was always a little bit like, I'm from New Jersey. I don't have time for that, you know? But once I went to therapy and opened up my mind and expanded my mind, I understood like, oh, energy is scientific, actually. It's not as easily measured as other things in our world. So it doesn't get as much respect as it should. But it's very simple.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Like, if you've got good vibes flowing, you know, you're going to put out good vibes and that's what you're going to attract. And conversely, the same is true for bad vibes. So I was someone who could easily go down the drain if things weren't going my way or if I didn't get what I wanted or and like get mad and get angry and get vindictive and blame, blame, blame, blame, like very victim-y. And There's a book called Letting Go by David Hawkins. That's pretty metaphysical. It's pretty deep. So it's not really for everyone. And it's definitely not for people who are looking to like get into spirituality. I would say there's like a couple more books to start with.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  But it really defines the energetic magnetic field that you basically instill in yourself. Like it is a choice to get up and be in a good, positive mood. It is a choice to be extra kind to strangers and extra friendly to people. And I don't get an A plus every day. Like the other day, I had all this shoulder stuff and I was in so much pain and I was getting an MRI. And I was like, fuck, I don't want to get surgery. And I was like, they were shuffling me from one MRI room to the other. And I was kind of like not making eye contact with the technician. And I left there and I was like, you could have done better than that. I'm like, I said to my makeup artist later, I was getting ready for an event.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  And I was like, I think the true definition of like being good and kind is to be able to do that no matter what kind of pain you're in and how inconvenienced you are. You know, you can be good and kind to people when you're happy all the time, no problem. But if you're in trouble, are you still able to be good and kind to people? And she's like, are you kidding me? You're in so much pain. I'm like, no, no, that's not an excuse. Like those kinds of tests is where I'm at in my life. Because I do know for certain, like I have no doubt in my mind that you reap what you sow. And that when you are really conscious and present, like I cannot express enough how much being present brings joyfulness into your life.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  You know, the very art of being in this conversation, talking to you yields good vibes because we're all paying attention to each other. And like, that's something that I've gotten so much better at. And I just, I'm good at it because I know what it brings.

• 39:46Mayim Bialik?

  It's funny you mention that. I was just, I don't know, in the middle of the night, lamenting about how much rushing is part of my makeup. Meaning checking things off a list, getting a conversation over with, you know, even when I try and relax or get a massage, it's like, okay, but what am I doing next? What are some other examples for you of what that shift in being present has brought?

• 40:14Speaker 00

  Well, I found out like the things that I loved the most in my life, like skiing, I love skiing, I love skiing. And my therapist, I was like, I just, I go, I wonder why I get so much joy out of it. And he pointed it out to me many, many years ago. He goes, because you have to be present, because you're worried about not falling, not dying, not falling off a cliff. Like, the reason why you are so joyful and so exhilarated while you ski is because you have to be present. So I take, try to take that with me wherever I go. You know, if I'm taking a Spanish lesson, I'm present. If I'm walking down the street, I'm not, I'm trying not to also be on my phone. I'm like, just walk down the street, look around, see somebody you can make eye contact with, smile. Like,

• 40:56Speaker 00

  it becomes very pedantic, but it becomes also a newer way to live. Like, it's exactly what you're saying. You're on your massage table, thinking about the 18 other things you have to do. You miss the massage. Like, you're missing all of the moments. And all of those little moments, there's like little gems and rainbows throughout all of them. And I don't want to miss those anymore. So it's not like I'm... Reading, reading for me. Reading is awesome because I have to be present. I can't listen to an audiobook because I'll be looking out the window and looking, you know? But when I read a book, which I do almost every day, I am so present and I feel so good. And so it's the addiction

• 41:38Speaker 00

  to that feeling of good, you know? Like, I love that feeling. So now I know how to get it. And it's by being in the moment.

• 41:46Jonathan Cohen?

  Skiing, you're also on some of the most magnificent nature that like you would never have access to, which is-

• 41:53Speaker 00

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 41:55Jonathan Cohen?

  Just jaw dropping.

• 41:56Speaker 00

  And that's where the LSD comes in. Not even, you can take a B+ and make it an A++. Like if you're in a natural environment, like a beautiful surroundings, and you have a microdose of LSD, you believe you're in heaven. You are like, oh my God, this is a slice of heaven on earth.

• 42:15Mayim Bialik?

  You talk a lot about kids and pets in the book. And I wonder, you know, some of the funniest, some of the funniest things that you write about and have talked about is the freedom of not having children. And as someone with children, I find it really, really refreshing to be able to laugh and to be able to understand what it would be like to not have children, minors 16 and 19, but still. Can you talk a bit, though, about the relationships that you have with people in your life who you serve a very significant role in their life? You talk in the book about certain boundary-setting aspects of that, but I wonder if you can

• 42:58Mayim Bialik?

  also talk about the joy and sort of what you've learned about the decisions you've made and what you do offer to these relationships?

• 43:06Speaker 00

  I think one of the greatest things about making a decision to be, to not have children is that it opens up your bandwidth so much. Like, this is something that nobody really talks about. Like, you have so much extra space for other people and other people's children. Like, if I had my own two kids, I wouldn't be able to give half of the attention that I give to my friends' kids, to my nieces, to my nephews. Like, I always wanted to be the fun aunt. I'm, I am, I'm the fun aunt. And I'm, I mean, my house in Whistler, like, you go over there any day of the week, and there are three different sets of children there. Like, some are in the upper living room, playing video games, others are in the kitchen, some are in the jacuzzi with all my knickknacks for my, like, skiing and compression garments and whatever.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  But, and my, my friends are like, this is so ridiculous that you have so many children around you. Around you. I'm like, and none of them are even related to me. And but I'm like, yes, but imagine if I had my own children, I would never have time for this. I would never have time to go skiing with other people's kids or take kids on vacations that would normally not have those kinds of, you know, opportunities to go on vacations like the ones I'm taking them on. And to even spend time. I mean, the girls in the book that I talk about, poopsie, oopsie and whoopsie are like my babies. And I speak to them every day. I mean, I just got off the phone trying to get her a ride. She's in New York City and I had to get her a ride to upstate New York with some other friends. I mean, I'm basically, you know, this like step parent to so many kids.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  And it's, and it brings me so much joy, like so much joy, so much love. People have this idea that I hate kids. I'm like, no, I never said that. I said, I don't want to be a mother. Like, that's what I said. So, yes, I, I, I think, you know, parenting is the biggest responsibility that anyone can take on. And any help I can give to parents with their kids as like, you know, an added support system, I love that.

• 45:04Jonathan Cohen?

  When are you going back to Whistler? I love that place so much.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Um, I, thank you. I love it too. Do you ever go?

• 45:11Jonathan Cohen?

  So I grew up in Toronto. We started going to Whistler Blackcomb when I was 14, sort of on March break. I sort of, I did most of my skiing out there. And then I lived in Victoria, British Columbia in my early twenties and we'd go up to Whistler quite a bit. So I haven't been in about 15, 20 years and cannot wait to go back. My son is a snowboarder and it will just blow his mind. He's never seen anything like it.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Oh, Whistler is like my, this is my favorite place. Hit me up if you guys come up there. We'll go, we'll go out and meet for a drink.

• 45:42Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan will be one of the kids in the jacuzzi.

• 45:44Jonathan Cohen?

  Sign me up.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  I'm hosting the Critics' Choice Awards next week, so I'll go back the morning after that.

• 45:49Jonathan Cohen?

  Have you recorded the 50th birthday skiing post yet or?

• 45:54Speaker 00

  No, I haven't. I just had shoulder surgery like Friday night. So I am on atrovenous antibiotics for an infection in my shoulder, which is why I had the surgery. So I have not, I just pushed my ski video. It's a big shoot this year because it's for my 50th. So I just pushed it by one week to allow myself a little bit more healing time before I get in a bikini, grab my dog and hit the slopes.

• 46:19Mayim Bialik?

  Well, happy birthday. Really, really hope that people will read. I'll have what she's having. Chelsea, thank you so much. So great to talk to you again. We really appreciate you coming by. Happy, happy birthday and can't wait to see what the next 50 bring.

• 46:33Speaker 00

  Thanks, guys. Thanks, Maya. It's so nice to see you.

• 46:40Mayim Bialik?

  I want to circle back to what she talked about regarding love. Some really, really painful, but really beautiful parts of the book. She says, this is on page 150. It says, "Ugh, the moment you know it can't work. The dreadful realization that you can't be in the relationship and truly remain who you are and who you've grown yourself to be." Then she says, "This was the work of therapy. Being in a relationship, being vulnerable without experiencing all the feelings that come with prior relationships when they go south. The desperation to make things right, the panic that you feel when something's ending, the rage toward the other person for not understanding that they're being unreasonable, or the very childish urge to prove you were right.

• 47:25Mayim Bialik?

  I had none of these emotions. What I felt was sadness and not the unbearable kind. The sadness of knowing that in order to make something work, I would have to abandon myself. The sadness of knowing there would be no compromise, that I am whole, that I am grounded, that I am full of love and gratitude, and even with all of these things, that the relationship was untenable." She really handles this breakup, and I'm sure it had lots of ups and downs, but she really handles it with a lot of grace. She said, "I had spent two years unearthing all of my childhood trauma, and I assumed because of that, I would attract the same." That really was like, wow.

• 48:06Mayim Bialik?

  Instead, "I attracted one of the greatest guys I've ever known, but he had never unearthed his trauma. And when the surface was scratched, it became clear that he had his own unfinished business and that being so deeply in love with each other was triggering that trauma." Oh, and the fact that she had to do that publicly. I mean, obviously, it's really unimaginable, but I really admire. I admire the grace that she's handled that conversation with. I feel it's really, I don't know, I think a lot of people, you know, maybe you're in a relationship, or you don't know, or you feel like you're abandoning yourself, and to be able to say, oh, I love this person, but...

• 48:48Mayim Bialik?

  It's not right and that you'd have to abandon yourself to stay in it. I just thought, I really like the way she writes about it.

• 48:54Jonathan Cohen?

  We've had guests and relationship experts talk about how close relationships bring up that trauma, the way that paragraph described, the notion that in these close relationships, the unhealed parts of ourselves are going to pop up and rear their heads.

• 49:14Jonathan Cohen?

  It's painful, but also, you know, being in a relationship is work to communicate, to find the balance of being together and who we are separately. But also, how do we deal with the parts of ourselves that do come up and surface that we may not realize are still there?

• 49:34Mayim Bialik?

  And we didn't get to talk about it, but highly recommend, if you haven't heard the first episode we did with Chelsea, that you check that out.

• 49:43Mayim Bialik?

  She, she really used, you know, therapy as a way to start understanding some of her own trauma, stuff that she came from, the loss of her brother and a lot of the complexity of, of her childhood. And so, you know, she, she herself talks about how that followed her to every relationship, every friendship, you know, everything kind of about her. And that's why I wish we, you know, could have gotten to more. But the book really takes us on that journey of what that kind of awareness and mindfulness and sort of looking at yourself, the way Jane Fonda allowed her to look at herself, to be able to kind of crack that open and see the places that are stuff. You don't even have to call it trauma, right?

• 50:26Mayim Bialik?

  But your stuff, whatever you come to any interaction with, like that, that is who you are, that, that, that has made you who you are. And it allows you to then confront those things or tuck them away even more.

• 50:39Jonathan Cohen?

  I looked back at that first conversation briefly, and there was a moment that stood out for me. She describes asking herself, is her entire life a reaction to her brother dying and having a very intense emotional experience? Was everything else simply knee jerk, the way that she was? Necessarily aggressive at people or the way that she sought distraction to be away from uncomfortable emotions. And I think a lot of us can relate to that, whether or not we have a death in the family, or a divorce, or some sort of pivotal childhood experience that makes it too painful for us to deal with whatever has happened. Are

• 51:21Jonathan Cohen?

  we then, for the rest of our lives, running to distraction afraid of what's sitting inside of us?

• 51:27Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, obviously, it can't be that simple, because her siblings reacted differently, or you'll have people in a similar situation. I mean, we can't study everything in twin studies and say, what happens if the same thing happens to two identical twins? But there's also a tremendous amount of variability, and something that we kind of keep revisiting here. There's a tremendous amount of variability to one's excitability, to one's propensity to hold trauma, or one's propensity to not have, let's say, as much energy to rally.

• 52:07Mayim Bialik?

  Some of what she talked about, I just don't relate to. This notion of like, oh, well, good vibes, bring good vibes, and bad vibes, bring bad vibes. I know that that's true, but also, a lot of things happen to you along the way in your life, kind of no matter what state you're in. And yeah, there's certain aspects of that that kind of feels like, gosh, but people who are experiencing chronic depression don't have that get up and go to be like, it's a choice. And I get it. It's a choice, what mood to be in.

• 52:46Jonathan Cohen?

  That's an end range, though. You paint the chronic depression, like, that's someone dealing with a very serious condition that they have less choice of. I think she's more talking about people who Are just in a reactive state. They just are ruminating or they're blaming. I think a lot of people can relate to the blame. Like, I'm uncomfortable and it's this person's fault. And if only this person didn't cut me off and that person got me in line faster. And this person wasn't an asshole and looked at me sideways. I would be in a better mood and I'm going to carry this around with me. And this cloud of darkness that Jane Fonda said to her, like, that's the part that hit me the hardest in that description.

• 53:30Jonathan Cohen?

  Because I can relate to not realizing the vibe I'm giving off. Like, my internal vibe, I think, is better than what is being perceived. You know, I was recently called out by having a resting, mean face, both on video often. When I'm on Zoom, someone teased me. They're like, if only Jonathan would smile. Which you can't say to that many people. But I literally have this horribly mean resting face, where people think I'm in the worst mood, but I'm just like, lost in my head. And you even say to me sometimes, you're like, your face while we're on the podcast.

• 54:08Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, that's usually what I'll type, your face. Because you look like death.

• 54:13Jonathan Cohen?

  But I don't mean to, but that's kind of different.

• 54:16Mayim Bialik?

  No, you don't, you just can't help it.

• 54:18Jonathan Cohen?

  I just can't help it. But I think that that's also different than people who are cycling in some sort of mire of annoyance or frustration or pain. And they're coming off as this dark cloud. So I'm saying like, sometimes I'm coming off as a dark cloud, not even realizing it. And other people aren't realizing it, but they're struggling themselves.

• 54:40Mayim Bialik?

  So let's, let's play a game.

• 54:41Jonathan Cohen?

  I like a game.

• 54:42Mayim Bialik?

  As Chelsea was talking about her former self and being like annoyed at this one, pissed off at this, and why is this happening that way? Just like, show of hands, who knows someone like that? I know, I know a lot of people like that. None of them are funny like Chelsea, though. And that's what I was thinking, that there's a lot of people who have this cloud, this darkness, but they...

• 55:06Mayim Bialik?

  They don't come off like she does. And I was thinking, like, is that just sort of like her genetic luck of the draw? And like, she's from Jersey and that's how she talks. Like, a lot of people just sit in their misery and it's not like, hey, get the fuck out of my way. Like, it's just like dark and sad. And then I was thinking, gosh, there's this human variability, you know, in how we express things. And for you, you often will kind of go inside, you know? Uh, some people really go outside or people will start, you know, when I'm threatened, I'll pick on other people. Right? And other people, when they're threatened, will just go dim, like, right?

• 55:47Mayim Bialik?

  So there's all this variability and it's kind of like, that's, that's sort of like the human experiment. It's like, let's put all these people together who all have different ways of expressing a range of dissatisfaction, anger, hurt, trauma, shame, and just like, see what happens, you know? And in sort of, you know, a mystical understanding of the universe, like, that's God's experiment. Like, let's see what happens.

• 56:11Jonathan Cohen?

  I was thinking about how it impacts her comedy because I do think she was a little bit harsher, meaner, a little bit more attacking in her comedy previously. And she's softened now to be introspective and making fun of things in general versus a specific, uh, person. And I wonder if that softness, you kind of have to fear, am I gonna lose the thing that brought me here? That edge? And yet, the way she described, oh, I want to get to the next version of myself, having to trust that that version will be funny, relatable, successful in its own way, that you don't need to rely on the past in order to have success. It's, it's some core of yourself that will remain, even if the expression is different.

• 56:56Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and I think for her, she just sort of feels like this is the next iteration of her, which, um, you know, as she describes it, it's, she's in a really awesome and fun place to be able to do that. You know, she has a lot of the comforts that she, um, always wanted. You know, she, she's sort of like, you know, she, she writes a letter to herself at the end and is like, you have the life that you wanted and now you get to try and enjoy it, you know?

• 57:25Jonathan Cohen?

  But this is the point, is so many people. Are afraid to reinvent themselves and to take, go to the next level because they don't know if that next level is safe. They're like, things are okay. I'm holding it together here. It's not so bad here. Am I going to take that next leap to find out who the next version of myself is? I think that can be a scary process. Jane Fonda, how many people are there that will take the time to not just write someone off, but to actually sit down and care enough about them to give them that note? Because that's not an easy note to give.

• 58:08Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, I kind of want to know what the other side of the story is, meaning like, what was the decision to, you know, to kind of have that further connection with her? It sounds like there was another event, you know, where Jane, you know, kind of realized, oh, I'm being cold to this person. I, I'd like to, you know, explain to her and kind of take her to task. But yeah, very curious. I mean, I've offended tons of people. Like, I'm waiting for someone to call me out. Besides you.

• 58:36Jonathan Cohen?

  No, but to have an intervention like that, it takes an enormous amount of heart and care. And maybe she was just cleaning her side of the street, being like, oh, she didn't like how she acted, and so she's going to take some action to make an amends. But it, I didn't hear it like that. And of course, I only know a tiny fraction of this story. The part that I hear is someone went out of their way to call someone over to their house, to call Chelsea over, and to literally make a fairly substantial adjustment in her life. She had the choice there. I'm either going to rail against this note, or I'm going to take it in. And what an act of love to do that.

• 59:18Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah. I mean, I think Chelsea had had enough therapy also to be able to take that in. I'm sure that there's a lot of situations where this would not have gone that way. Or as Chelsea had, you know, kind of talked about, if she had had that martini, right? Or if she had been high, like when she came over, right? You'd never know what would have happened. But I really like that notion of, you know, it being about the Sisterhood, which is also a theme that she talks about throughout the book in terms of the women that she mentors and is like a stepmom to. And the friend circle that she's cultivated, there's a lot in there about women looking out for each other. And I think the fact that she was able to receive it that way was really a gift for her.

• 1:00:00Jonathan Cohen?

  She's sounding more and more LA spiritual, like the people she said were ridiculous. And I love when that happens, when someone goes from skeptical, all this wooey nonsense is totally illegitimate, and as she said, stupid, to starting to dig into the science of it and understanding that our cells make energy, we have energy that moves through our body. That word is difficult for a lot of people because it's sort of nebulous and it doesn't make sense. But as we understand that, we are all part of a larger system that opens a can of worms, which is both scientific and spiritual. And I liked how she described it. She's coming over to our side.

• 1:00:43Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, it felt like she was doing an advertisement for my MBiols Breakdown. Like, just because you can't measure it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I was like, exactly, that's right.

• 1:00:53Jonathan Cohen?

  We should do a topper. That's going to be our new ad.

• 1:00:57Mayim Bialik?

  Chelsea Handler's, it's her seventh book. I'll Have What She's Having is out today. Make sure to wish Chelsea a happy 50th birthday, as we got to do. And so excited to have her on again. And yeah, make sure you subscribe. Go on YouTube, subscribe, hit the bell icon so that you get notified when new things drop. Subscribe anywhere that you get podcasts. And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.