342. The Borden Murders

Get compounded GLP-1s for $59 a month from Collective. It's the same price every dose and you don’t have to prepay in advance to get the lowest price in the country. Visit collective.org/HUSBAND. In August 1892, Andrew and Abby Borden were found murdered inside their Fall River, Massachusetts, home, forever linking Lizzie Borden’s name to the case. Behind the familiar nursery rhyme lies a story of family tension, wealth, and conflicting accounts. We unpack the case and examine where Netflix’s portrayal departs from the history, asking how much of the story we think we know is actually true. LINKS Netflix Video Every Monday @11am PST, 12pm MST, 2pm EST 1pm CST: https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murder-with-my-husband/id1508098400 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6GaodpBsSpBuUMhmEXhjK2?si=8ad6ec0368a94dbb SOURCES Lizzie-Borden.com: https://lizzie-borden.com/blog/lizzie-borden-fact-vs-fiction/ SmithsonianMag.com: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-lizzie-borden-got-away-with-murder-180972707/ TheTab.com: https://thetab.com/2026/09/21/did-andrew-borden-make-coffins-and-chop-customers-to-size-in-real-life-he-did-have-an-eerie-job AETV.com: https://www.aetv.com/articles/aileen-wuornos-lizzie-borden-connection IrishCentral.com: https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/lizzie-borden-irish-maid-murders AmericanHeritage.com: https://www.americanheritage.com/what-made-lizzie-borden-kill Famous-Trials.com: https://famous-trials.com/lizzieborden/1436-biographies Biography.com: https://www.biography.com/crime/a73581416/lizzie-borden-trial Ebsco.com: https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/history/lizzie-borden People.com: https://people.com/monster-the-lizzie-borden-story-true-story-12114959 Netflix’s Monster: “The Lizzie Borden Story”: https://www.netflix.com/title/82068293 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Garrett Moreland?

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• 1:23Speaker 02

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• 1:54Payton Moreland?

  You're listening to an Ono Media Podcast. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder with My Husband. I'm Payton Moreland.

• 2:02Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm Garrett Moreland.

• 2:03Payton Moreland?

  And he's the husband.

• 2:04Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm the husband. Well, we are still here. Baby has not come yet, but one more week, baby will be here.

• 2:14Payton Moreland?

  Maybe. I mean, some babies, they just love to stay in there.

• 2:18Garrett Moreland?

  We're getting closer. Yeah, I don't know, we're getting closer. Pretty exciting. Payne's not feeling good, but other than that, we're pretty excited.

• 2:27Payton Moreland?

  Daisy's chomping a clip in the background, so if you can hear that, that is what is going on. She loves to destroy clips.

• 2:36Garrett Moreland?

  I think we officially have all of our baby stuff set up. We're ready to go. We kind of have everything we need for the most part.

• 2:43Payton Moreland?

  I just keep ordering more. I don't.

• 2:46Garrett Moreland?

  So, yeah, we're excited and that's kind of all we got, honestly, guys. We've just been preparing for this baby, working, preparing some more, working some more, getting ready to get Peyton some time off and yeah, what else?

• 3:03Payton Moreland?

  I think today's case might be a little long.

• 3:06Garrett Moreland?

  Really?

• 3:07Payton Moreland?

  So maybe we should just get into it before.

• 3:10Garrett Moreland?

  It's a case everyone has heard of.

• 3:13Payton Moreland?

  What do you know about it?

• 3:14Garrett Moreland?

  Nothing.

• 3:16Garrett Moreland?

  Nothing, I know absolutely nothing about it. I know nothing about it, but all of you guys will know everything about it.

• 3:22Payton Moreland?

  Let me, let me do my intro and then I'll ask you what you think you know about it.

• 3:27Garrett Moreland?

  So if you've never heard this case, this will be a good one for you.

• 3:30Payton Moreland?

  I'm going to leave our sources for the end of the episode.

• 3:33Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 3:34Payton Moreland?

  I mean, here's the problem is the title of the episode most likely says what it is. You know what I mean?

• 3:39Garrett Moreland?

  So everyone will know what it is.

• 3:40Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, but for you, for you, we'll do this for you. Lizzie Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 whacks. When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41. It's a nursery rhyme you've heard before. You've probably even maybe repeated it yourself.

• 3:59Garrett Moreland?

  Wait, that's a nursery rhyme?

• 4:02Payton Moreland?

  Yep, but the problem is it is wildly inaccurate, as are a lot of repeated things about the story of Lizzie Borden. Time has a way of rewriting history. That's no surprise. But nowadays Hollywood is definitely taking it a step further. And while the creative liberties definitely make for good TV and in Netflix's case, commentary about female repression and rage. The reality is Lizzie Borden was not some demure, shrinking violet, having a sexual awakening with her housekeeper. She was likely motivated by a lot of things that we typically see in true crime cases.

• 4:47Payton Moreland?

  Money, maybe a little bit of revenge. So today we are unpacking the real story behind Lizzie Borden. Talking about what Netflix got right and what was just pure fiction altogether. So Garrett, what do you know about Lizzie Borden?

• 5:07Garrett Moreland?

  Nothing.

• 5:08Payton Moreland?

  You never heard that nursery rhyme?

• 5:11Garrett Moreland?

  No, no, no, I've never heard that nursery rhyme, which I thought that it was part of the case. So I was a little confused at first.

• 5:16Payton Moreland?

  It is, I mean, it's a real thing.

• 5:18Garrett Moreland?

  So is this an older, this happened a long time ago then?

• 5:22Payton Moreland?

  1800s.

• 5:23Garrett Moreland?

  No idea. I, you could have said 2026, I would have said, cool. But I've never heard of this. I don't know how, I don't know how that's possible because I, I don't live under a rock. I do swear I don't. I keep up with almost everything except true crime.

• 5:39Payton Moreland?

  Had you heard the name Lizzie Borden?

• 5:41Garrett Moreland?

  I feel like maybe. I'm not going to say no, because I feel like I've probably heard it before.

• 5:46Payton Moreland?

  So you definitely have never, never heard the 40 whacks?

• 5:49Garrett Moreland?

  No, I promise you've never heard that before.

• 5:51Payton Moreland?

  Okay, so you know literally nothing?

• 5:53Garrett Moreland?

  No.

• 5:54Payton Moreland?

  And Garrett also has not watched the Netflix documentary.

• 5:58Garrett Moreland?

  No, I probably won't ever watch the Netflix documentary.

• 6:00Payton Moreland?

  It's not even a documentary show.

• 6:02Garrett Moreland?

  Correct.

• 6:03Payton Moreland?

  I watched it and as always, whenever there is an intriguing remake of a case, I love to do a deep dive of what's real, what's not, what actually happened here? What made for good TV? You know, I love a good retelling of a story, but then it always needs followed up with that deep dive of something.

• 6:26Garrett Moreland?

  I know nothing about this, so let's get into it.

• 6:29Payton Moreland?

  So let's travel back to over a century and a half ago. The year is 1860 and in the fast-growing city of Fall River, Massachusetts, Sarah and Andrew Borden are welcoming their third child, Elizabeth Andrew Borden. Now this third child, Elizabeth, Lizzie, as she was called, was a blessing. She had a sister, Emma, who was nine years old, and another baby who came between the two, a little girl named Alice, though Alice had died before even reaching the age of two. And unfortunately, this was far more common back then.

• 7:13Payton Moreland?

  And it goes to show that even the wealthiest, most successful people aren't immune to tragedy even back then. Lizzie's father, Andrew, had started his career out as a cabinet maker and a carpenter, mostly making furniture. He did own one company that made coffins. But if you've watched the Netflix series, Andrew was not handling any bodies or chopping them off at the legs to make them fit into these coffins like we've watched on TV. Instead, he evolved into a prominent businessman who worked in real estate and manufacturing

• 7:58Payton Moreland?

  back in the 1860s. He invested in cloth mills, banks, multiple properties. Some sources said he worked 14 hours a day, but pretty much everyone in Fall River knew the Borden name because they were wealthy. They were respected. He was an entrepreneur, but just because they were respected does not mean everyone had the kindest things to say about Mr. Borden. Before Sarah, his wife, and him got married, she had worked as a seamstress, but now she was a full-time mother. Though Sarah didn't get to perform that role for very long, at least not for the youngest sister,

• 8:43Payton Moreland?

  Lizzie. By March of 1863, Sarah was suffering from a long and painful illness and she died that month at just 39 years old. She left behind a 22-month-old baby, Lizzie, and 12-year-old Emma, and then a husband who was absolutely devastated. And suddenly Andrew Borden, this prominent man, is left to raise two little girls all on his own. And this was a job that he was not cut out for. Now, it is true that 12-year-old Emma promised her dying mother one thing before she died, and that was that she would look after baby Lizzie, protect her baby sister at all costs.

• 9:28Payton Moreland?

  And Emma would go on to follow through on that promise a lot more than like what has been portrayed. As for Andrew, he decided he would just rather remarry than have to raise these girls alone. So two years later, in June of 1865, the now 42-year-old Andrew tied the knot with the daughter of a pushcart peddler named Abby Durfee Gray. Now, at this point, Abby was 37. She had no children of her own, but the truth was Lizzie wasn't even old enough

• 10:07Payton Moreland?

  to remember her birth mother much or realize that Abby, her stepmother now, was someone who came from a much lower social class that was now stepping into place to become her mom. But 12 year old Emma was old enough to realize what was going on and she supposedly resented Abby far more than Lizzie did growing up. And over the years, Lizzie and Emma remained a strong, united front as sisters. Despite their age gap, they were extremely close even as they got older, always looking out for each other, always defending one another,

• 10:48Payton Moreland?

  especially when it came to their parents. Now, by the time the girls had reached adulthood, Andrew Borden was worth half a million dollars, which would be roughly $18 million today. And Lizzie had become an active and well-respected member of the Fall River community. She was a regular at the Central Congregationalist Church. She also taught Sunday School there. She was part of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, which supported the prohibition of alcohol, anti-tobacco and drug campaigns, labor rights, and even a woman's right to vote. At 20 years old, she was even given a seat on the board at the Fall

• 11:32Payton Moreland?

  River Hospital. Plus, Lizzie Borden had a pretty busy social calendar. Not exactly the homebody that she's been painted to be, though she was perpetually single.

• 11:48Payton Moreland?

  And sources said that's because she was extremely picky when it came to men and being married off. And in the rare case that she did bring home someone she liked, her father thought they weren't good enough for her. And Emma, her older sister, also found herself in a similar situation. Always single, saying she never could quite find anyone right enough to marry. And because of that, both sisters lived at home still well into their adulthood, which brought them even closer. And as far as their relationship with their stepmother,

• 12:27Payton Moreland?

  Abby, well, that's where things get a bit murkier than maybe the Netflix series or other portrayals have made it seem. One thing was for sure, though. Emma and Lizzie were not buddy-buddy with their stepmother Abby. They apparently refused to call her mother, which was why they would refer to her to her face as Mrs. Borden, which we saw in the Netflix series. Like, when they, you know, when she would call their name, they would say, yes, Mrs. Borden.

• 13:01Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, I don't know. Is it that? I feel like that happens in a lot of families that might have stepparents, right?

• 13:07Payton Moreland?

  Lizzie was basically raised from her at three years old.

• 13:11Garrett Moreland?

  True.

• 13:12Payton Moreland?

  So she, this is really the only mother figure she's known. But this is like the dynamic in the family. Some sources say they even refused to share a meal with her and their father.

• 13:26Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, gosh.

• 13:27Payton Moreland?

  So the two daughters would eat separately from the parents at dinner. I guess there was one time when a dressmaker referred to Abby as Lizzie and Emma's mother, and Lizzie Borden snapped at her and said, quote, "Don't call her that to me. She is a mean thing and we hate her." But how mean was she? Like, are these feelings justified? Well, that's what's always been called into question. Their take on their stepmother was that she had come into the home from a lower social class and married Andrew, their dad, not out of love, but for his wealth and social status. When the two tied the knot, Abby

• 14:08Payton Moreland?

  was 37 years old, which was basically considered an old maid back then. But they also felt their father never really truly loved her either. That Abby was only brought into the family to basically be a housekeeper and a nanny for the girls. It was a marriage of convenience and because of the times. One Emma and Lizzie didn't believe in, and they honestly wanted nothing to do with. Now, as villainous as Abby has been made out to be in Lizzie Borden's story, both in the Hollywood and revisionist history versions, there is really no concrete reports of her ever abusing or neglecting the Borden sisters. There were

• 14:51Payton Moreland?

  also reports that the Borden women had gotten frustrated with their father's, he was a frugal man despite being very wealthy. And the fact that they're adults and live at home, this kind of bothered them over the years as they got older. Despite having tons of money, the house didn't have indoor plumbing or gaslighting, which was already common in most middle to upper-class households at that time. In fact, sources said Lizzie was extremely embarrassed of her home and how modest, cramped, and out of date it was for how wealthy her father was. And that's why she rarely invited people over there to socialize. Plus, Andrew reportedly refused to give his daughters money for things, which

• 15:35Payton Moreland?

  became a huge deal when they learned Andrew had handed over a significant chunk of cash to his new wife, Abby. Today's episode is brought to you by Collective, a company built on a simple idea. What if GLP-1s didn't have to cost hundreds of dollars a month? Collective offers doctor-prescribed compounded GLP-1s for $59 a month from registered US pharmacies that are third-party tested for quality, and the price stays the same at any dose. There's no introductory medication offer that doubles in your second month, and no hidden fees.

• 16:15Garrett Moreland?

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• 16:52Garrett Moreland?

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• 18:09Payton Moreland?

  In 1887, Abby told Andrew her half-sister had fallen on hard times, and she was looking for a place to stay. And rather than offer her a room at the house, Andrew did Abby one better. He said, "Why don't we just buy your sister a home to live in?" Only Andrew never told his grown daughters, Lizzie, who's now 27, and Emma, who is 36, about this purchase. So 27-year-old and 36-year-old are still living at home, and then their father's like, "Yeah, honey, let's just buy your sister, their aunt, a home so that we don't have to board her here."

• 18:53Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 18:53Payton Moreland?

  Which to the adult daughters was like, "Okay, what about us? Like, we're still living at home." And he didn't tell them about it, so they end up finding about it from other people in town. After that, the sisters felt like Abby, their stepmother, had some sort of financial power over their father. So they went to their father and they bring up the issue. They're like...

• 19:16Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know. Like, so far, it just sounds like normal family drama. Like, welcome to having, I mean, I'm curious where this goes, but it's like, I feel like I hear about this stuff all the time with stepparents and parents and remarrying and divorce. Like, it's very common.

• 19:34Payton Moreland?

  And I do think, back then...

• 19:38Payton Moreland?

  Generational money for the upper class was an even more complicated topic.

• 19:46Garrett Moreland?

  Yes, it was very different. It was like you were born.

• 19:48Payton Moreland?

  Social status.

• 19:49Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, social status and everything was like a new money was not really a thing.

• 19:54Payton Moreland?

  And money wasn't necessarily just means of

• 19:58Garrett Moreland?

  Correct.

• 19:58Payton Moreland?

  Physical survival. It was means of social survival as well. Like your spot in society was a lot more prominent for your survival back then than it is today.

• 20:08Garrett Moreland?

  If you were a peon.

• 20:10Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 20:11Garrett Moreland?

  And you're like, and you, I guess, bad term, but weaseled your way into like a rich family.

• 20:17Payton Moreland?

  I mean, that's why the daughters, that's what they think about their mother.

• 20:19Garrett Moreland?

  Nobody liked you.

• 20:20Payton Moreland?

  And it's just because of the family she was born into. So they go to the father. They press the issue. They're like, listen, if you're going to be giving away money to your wife and to her family, then we need some cash of our own. Like we're full grown adults and you need to give us money too. Now eventually Andrew gave in. He allowed the sisters to buy the home they had lived in before their mother died for $1. And then in July of that year, they went to sell it again. Cause I guess they cared more about the money than the actual sentiment of like,

• 21:00Payton Moreland?

  I will buy the family home that you had with your mother or you can buy it from me for $1. And then they just immediately sold it. And took the money. They actually end up selling it back to Andrew for $5,000.

• 21:16Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 21:17Payton Moreland?

  So he gives it to them for $1 and they're like, eh, we don't want it anymore. You can have it back for $5,000. That's $176,000 today.

• 21:27Garrett Moreland?

  That's really weird.

• 21:28Payton Moreland?

  And even after this, tensions keep brewing in the Borden house. But 1889 brought one outsider who kind of seemed to change the family dynamic a little bit. It was a woman named Bridget Sullivan.

• 21:47Garrett Moreland?

  Bridget Sullivan. All right, let's hear about Bridget.

• 21:50Payton Moreland?

  Now, much like the Netflix version, Bridget had immigrated from Ireland. And by the time she applied to be the Borden's live-in maid, she was about 26 years old. So she's actually younger than both of the Borden sisters. Now, after she got the job, it was actually Emma and Lizzie who decided to call her Maggie. Because it was the name that they called all of their previous housekeepers. So instead of calling them their actual name.

• 22:22Garrett Moreland?

  That's okay.

• 22:23Payton Moreland?

  So they wouldn't even call her Bridget. It was, she was referred to as Maggie.

• 22:27Garrett Moreland?

  Again, we're in different times, everybody.

• 22:30Payton Moreland?

  This wasn't Abby or Andrew's idea like we saw, but there were no signs that anyone in the family really treated Bridget cruelly. Instead, she was just kind of treated like any other housemate at the time. Um, any other employee, they mostly just kind of kept their distance from. Still, Bridget was working for their family as things at home are getting worse and worse between the parents and the daughters over the next few years. And in May of 1892, things in the Borden family started to collapse and Andrew Borden suddenly snapped. Now, there's a few variations of this story, but here's the ones that historical records tend to say.

• 23:16Payton Moreland?

  That spring in 1892, Andrew Borden went out to the family's barn where Lizzie Borden had recently built a roost for wild pigeons. But Andrew claiming the pigeons attracted infections and disease, or by some accounts, neighborhood children onto their property, decided to take a hatchet and kill all the pigeons that were in Lizzie's roost that she built.

• 23:44Garrett Moreland?

  Not cool.

• 23:45Payton Moreland?

  Stories say, and again, guys, that was Andrew, the father. Stories say Lizzie was rather upset about her father's sudden outburst and that he had killed these animals so mercilessly that she had kind of taken care of. Others say that he brought them into the house and had them cooked up for dinner and Lizzie didn't do so much as bad an eye. But it does seem like somewhere in this story.

• 24:12Garrett Moreland?

  How come we have two different?

• 24:15Payton Moreland?

  How do we have a nursery rhyme about a murder?

• 24:17Garrett Moreland?

  Why do we have one spectrum and then another end of the spectrum? I don't understand.

• 24:20Payton Moreland?

  Well, this is why there's a thousand versions of this story and why there's a nursery rhyme made about this story.

• 24:25Garrett Moreland?

  So we don't even know actually really what is true and not true.

• 24:28Payton Moreland?

  This is like down to the core of historical research, the most accurate story we couldn't put together, but that's why I'm telling you, there are different variations.

• 24:40Garrett Moreland?

  That kind of bugs me sometimes because.

• 24:43Payton Moreland?

  Right. But you know what?

• 24:44Garrett Moreland?

  Like, who knows?

• 24:45Payton Moreland?

  This is the thing about the 1800s. And I know we're like in 1890s. So we're almost into the 1900s, but even the early 1900s, the stories, they're all over the place. You can't even trust a true crime case from back then.

• 24:59Garrett Moreland?

  Cause you have no.

• 24:59Payton Moreland?

  Because a detective could have like stepped on a piece of wood a weird way and then been like, it was the neighbor. And then like, that was enough evidence. You know what I mean? Like every time we flashback to events and true crimes that have happened in the past, like history, oh, it drives me nuts.

• 25:19Garrett Moreland?

  I know. That kind of drives me crazy too.

• 25:21Payton Moreland?

  Okay. So apparently the killing of the pigeons is still, according to all sources, a trigger for Lizzie. Because after that, the arguments between the sisters and their father escalated. In July, Emma and Lizzie took an extended vacation away from the house to get some space. And when Lizzie came back to town, she refused to go back to the Borden house for a few days because she was still really mad. So instead she stayed at a local rooming house. So no, the birds were not doves like we saw. And no,

• 26:02Payton Moreland?

  Abby, the stepmother, wasn't the one who slaughtered them in a fit of rage. In fact, some sources say Lizzie didn't even consider the pigeons her pets, but the bird massacre does seem like a major plot point in Lizzie's lore, according to most sources. Because just a few months later, both her parents are going to be found dead.

• 26:24Garrett Moreland?

  Okay. All right. Let's hear it.

• 26:26Payton Moreland?

  A day before these murders, an unexpected visitor showed up at the Borden's doorstep. Their maternal uncle. So their dead mom.

• 26:37Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 26:38Payton Moreland?

  Sarah's.

• 26:39Garrett Moreland?

  Brother.

• 26:39Payton Moreland?

  Brother. His name was John Morse. He arrived on August 3rd, 1892, around 1:30 PM. This is less than 24 hours before Lizzie's parents murders. This maternal uncle shows up. In fact, his trip was so spontaneous that I guess he arrived without any luggage. He said he was visiting some relatives around the area and just wanted to stop by.

• 27:11Garrett Moreland?

  I think it's kind of funny back then, like you're going to show up at people's houses and everyone's like, whoa. Like what's going on? Hey, how's it going? So I don't know. It just doesn't really happen now.

• 27:22Payton Moreland?

  But he also says that this random drop in like after no contact with this family was also because he had some business matters to discuss with Andrew. His dead sister's husband. That afternoon, John then left to go see another family member nearby. And then he returned to the Borden house that evening to spend the night there. But before going to bed, he had a discussion with the father, Andrew, and some sources say the stepmother Abby as well. Now there's no official record on what those matters were or what they talked about during this meeting.

• 28:04Payton Moreland?

  But it's the timing of his arrival without any luggage and then father and mother show up dead 24 hours later that some do find suspicious. Like how does this long lost uncle show up to potentially talk about business and money? And then these two end up dead.

• 28:21Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 28:22Payton Moreland?

  Who, especially back in these times, got money? If family members ended up dead, did they have a disagreement, money, property, family affairs? His visit definitely becomes a sticking point in the case later. But his stay wasn't the only shady thing that had happened that day. Apparently that same afternoon, Lizzie went to a drugstore in Fall River. And remember she's on like not speaking terms with her dad at this point. And she asked the pharmacist if she could buy 10 cents worth of prussic acid, which is basically a form of cyanide.

• 29:01Payton Moreland?

  In the 24 hours before her parents-

• 29:02Garrett Moreland?

  Crazy, you can just go buy that.

• 29:04Payton Moreland?

  Yes, at the local pharmacist.

• 29:06Garrett Moreland?

  Well, that's nuts.

• 29:07Payton Moreland?

  Lizzie tells him she needs it to clean a silskin cape, but they apparently refuse to sell it to her. They're like, you need a prescription, which is interesting because Abby already suspected she had been poisoned once, the stepmother.

• 29:25Garrett Moreland?

  Oh.

• 29:27Payton Moreland?

  Apparently, the night before, on August 2nd, Abby, Andrew, and the maid Bridgette had eaten some leftover broth that made them violently ill, and they woke up in the middle of the night with intense stomach pains. And Abby was so certain the next morning that she had been poisoned, that she actually went across the street to the family doctor to tell him about it. She's like, we all ended up sick. Again, Bridgette, the housemaid, also ate this soup and ended up sick. Andrew, however, the father, he was just like, it was a bad batch of soup. It's the 1800s. He thought Abby was being paranoid.

• 30:10Payton Moreland?

  He even waved the doctor away when he came to check in on him the morning of the 3rd. But maybe Abby was right, because by the following afternoon, her stepdaughter had gone to try and buy cyanide, and she ended up dead. Now, the morning of August 4th, 1892, started out like any normal day in the Borden household. Andrew left at his usual time to go check in on his businesses, and Abby was left home alone with Lizzie and their live-in housekeeper Bridgette. The only real difference was that that morning, Emma was about 15 miles away on vacation.

• 30:54Payton Moreland?

  So Emma wasn't home. And their Uncle John had spent the night, like I told you. So, father leaves in the morning for work. It's now Abby, adult daughter Lizzie, and Uncle John, who are at the house. And despite the fact that Uncle John spent the night, he reportedly left the next morning around 8:45 a.m. to go visit another niece that was in town. Now, the way Lizzie tells it, Abby received a note that morning from a sick friend asking Abby to come visit. So, Lizzie assumed her stepmother was packing up her things to make the trip and heading out right away.

• 31:37Payton Moreland?

  Meanwhile, Lizzie said she spent the next half hour or so out in the barn. And she also claimed, and this is one of the parts from the show that is true, she was looking for a sinker for a possible fishing excursion she was going to attend. She said she even ate some pears out in the barn during this time. And then around 11 a.m. or so, she finally makes her way back inside the family home.

• 32:07Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 32:09Payton Moreland?

  And that is when she found her father had actually returned home from work by 11 a.m. Only when she walks inside from being out in the back on the family farm for hours, she now finds her father dead inside the family sitting room.

• 32:31Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 32:32Payton Moreland?

  He had been viciously attacked in his head and face with a sharp weapon. Lizzie said at this point, she screamed for Bridgette, because she thinks Abby has gone to visit a sick friend. So she thinks Bridgette, the housemaid, is the only other person who's home, and asked Bridgette to go get a doctor and her good friend who lived down the street, Alice Russell. Now Bridgette comes back from fetching both of them in minutes. Now, Dr. Bowen, the Borden's usual physician, checked Andrew's pulse, quickly concluded he was dead. I will say.

• 33:10Garrett Moreland?

  He was obvious.

• 33:10Payton Moreland?

  He was obviously dead.

• 33:11Garrett Moreland?

  Uh huh.

• 33:12Payton Moreland?

  And it was just after that that she's like, wait, what about Mrs. Borden? Like, she, had she left the house yet, or is she still here? Because she was supposed to go visit a friend, but did she ever actually make it? So now with two more, with Bridgette there and the doctor, she's like, what about Mrs. Borden? So she yells out for her and claimed they ran upstairs to see if she was still home or if she had left. And that's when they discover her body in the family home as well.

• 33:43Garrett Moreland?

  Of course, of course.

• 33:45Payton Moreland?

  She is dead in a pool of her own blood in the second floor guest room where her Uncle John had spent the night, the night before, but he left at 8:45 a.m.

• 33:59Garrett Moreland?

  So Andrew and the stepmom, mom, are both dead.

• 34:03Payton Moreland?

  Yes, with the same type of weapon.

• 34:05Garrett Moreland?

  Been obviously chopped up. Not chopped up, but you know what I'm saying.

• 34:10Payton Moreland?

  Axed to death.

• 34:11Garrett Moreland?

  Yes, axed to death. But basically chopped up at that point.

• 34:14Payton Moreland?

  While Bridgette-

• 34:16Garrett Moreland?

  One was downstairs.

• 34:17Payton Moreland?

  The housemaid.

• 34:18Garrett Moreland?

  One was upstairs.

• 34:19Payton Moreland?

  Yes. While Bridgette, the housemaid, we don't know where she was at this point, and she's fine. And Lizzie claims she was in the barn the entire time.

• 34:28Garrett Moreland?

  Lizzie claims that Lizzie herself was in the barn.

• 34:31Payton Moreland?

  The entire time. Now, it's not long before police show up, they start asking questions. The Borden's have been axed to death. This is huge news in Fall River.

• 34:41Garrett Moreland?

  Yep.

• 34:42Payton Moreland?

  Lizzie repeated the story you just heard, at least at first. But as time passed, according to most sources, her details start to change.

• 34:51Garrett Moreland?

  They always do. They always do.

• 34:53Payton Moreland?

  She began by telling them that the reason she went back inside from outside was because she heard a grunt or a groan coming from the house. Now, when she tells the story later, she claims she heard nothing. She was just coming back in the house because she was done outside. There was nothing wrong. But the officers had other issues with Lizzie. They felt she was calm. She was poised for someone who had literally just found their parents dead in such a brutal way. But despite all of this, no one checked Lizzie for blood stains, checked her fingernails. They didn't, they barely searched her bedroom, claiming they didn't want to disturb Lizzie since she obviously wasn't feeling well

• 35:37Payton Moreland?

  after finding her parents murdered, and she just needed to lie down. Now, when police checked the barn to look for clues and confirm Lizzie's alibi, they find it so stiflingly hot that they couldn't imagine anyone had spent one minute in there, let alone 20 minutes in this barn eating pears.

• 35:59Garrett Moreland?

  Why was it so hot? Just because outside?

• 36:01Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 36:02Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 36:02Payton Moreland?

  They also found no footprints outside that would suggest Lizzie had recently been walking around there that morning. So after this, they search the basement. And there they find what they believed to be the murder weapon.

• 36:17Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 36:18Payton Moreland?

  And I've been calling it the axe. The nursery rhyme calls it the axe. Everyone refers to it as axed to death, but I'm about to, I'm about to drop.

• 36:31Garrett Moreland?

  Is it a sword?

• 36:33Payton Moreland?

  It was probably just a hatchet. Like a smaller version of an axe. It wasn't an axe, even though-

• 36:41Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, that's fine. I get it. I mean, hatchet, hatchets tend to be quite a bit smaller. But I mean, I understand the reference. It doesn't bother me.

• 36:48Payton Moreland?

  Sounds more brutal.

• 36:50Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 36:51Payton Moreland?

  Um, so yeah, history and Hollywood have both told us that it was an axe, but it likely wasn't.

• 36:57Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know if that detail matters that much. Axe, hatchet.

• 37:00Payton Moreland?

  I don't know. It's just that Axe and Borden have been so like tightly-

• 37:06Garrett Moreland?

  Tied together?

• 37:06Payton Moreland?

  Yes. But it was probably a hatchet. Can I be honest? There have been so many times where I go to the gym, and then I just wander around and have no idea what to do. No plan, no progress. But then I found the Ladder app, and it's completely changed how I work out. Ladder is an expert strength training plan, not a content library. So, these aren't influencer workouts or challenges. It's real progressive programming designed by certified coaches to help you out. You get a new plan every week that builds on the last one. The workouts connect each week progresses from the one before through structured training blocks. And it's so nice for people like me who do feel lost at the gym

• 37:49Payton Moreland?

  to have something like Ladder to be there for you, you know, help you with form, cues, motivation, all of it.

• 37:56Garrett Moreland?

  Remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout. No thinking, everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/husband and take a quick quiz to find your perfect ladder plan. Use our link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join. All right, guys, we're jumping into an ad and it is the one and only Skims.

• 38:25Payton Moreland?

  We love Skims and I'm so excited. I get to talk to you about their loungewear and pajamas. If you follow me on Instagram, I just posted, but I did get one of their sleep sets. That's like a deep burgundy color, so cute, so rich, so soft. And then I also got a fleece set that's like this chocolate brown. So freaking cute. I love a good matching set and I love Skims. Again, the sleep set I got is the soft lounge sleep set. I always get asked like what exactly it is.

• 39:05Payton Moreland?

  Um, so yes, the soft lounge sleep set, it has the perfect weight, the perfect stretch. The fabric will not irritate your skin. Honestly, I recommend Skims to everyone due to just the quality and the comfort that it brings. So go check out their cotton fleece sets or their sleep sets right now.

• 39:26Garrett Moreland?

  Shop Peyton's favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcast in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows.

• 39:39Payton Moreland?

  There was a fresh break in this hatchet's handle and it was rubbed in ash and dust as if someone had tried to make it look like it had been in the basement for a while, like untouched. They also found some bloody clothes and rags in the basement.

• 39:53Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh.

• 39:54Payton Moreland?

  Lizzie tells them, no, no, no, that's just from my menstruation. Or as in the show, her menses, which I thought I, I was like, that's funny that I know they did refer to it that. And it can't be, but she says, that's my menses rag. So the officers drop the menses rag. They're like, oh, this is your menstruation blood? Yeah, we're not even going to look into it. We'll just put all this blood back, bloody clothing and cloth back in the basket.

• 40:21Garrett Moreland?

  And they moved on?

• 40:22Payton Moreland?

  And we're going to move on.

• 40:23Garrett Moreland?

  No way.

• 40:24Payton Moreland?

  Now, after the autopsy, a clearer picture of that gruesome morning comes into focus. Sixty-four-year-old Abby Borden, sixty-four, was attacked first. Her autopsy documented nineteen wounds.

• 40:39Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 40:40Payton Moreland?

  Not forty whacks.

• 40:41Garrett Moreland?

  Not forty.

• 40:42Payton Moreland?

  Eighteen of these whacks, though, were still to her head.

• 40:46Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh.

• 40:47Payton Moreland?

  That is still very unthinkably violent. Her father, sixty-nine-year-old Andrew, suffered eleven wounds.

• 40:56Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 40:57Payton Moreland?

  Not forty-one, ten of which made his face completely unrecognizable. Cause they were majority to the front of his face.

• 41:06Garrett Moreland?

  I just don't understand how you do that. I truly don't understand.

• 41:08Payton Moreland?

  They also believe he was killed about a half hour after Abby. Maybe because he came home from work late or he had been at work and then came home. Either way, the victim's stomachs were also removed to check for any toxins or poisons. Nothing was found. And when the news made its rounds, the rumors that Lizzie had done it because she was home seemed inconceivable. How could a woman be capable of something so brutal and gruesome? Not to mention

• 41:40Garrett Moreland?

  Interesting.

• 41:41Payton Moreland?

  as physically demanding as this. And this is something that we see in the portrayal of this story and it is true. People, especially police and men, but people around town.

• 41:54Garrett Moreland?

  A woman could do this.

• 41:55Payton Moreland?

  They were like, no way is a woman strong enough.

• 41:57Garrett Moreland?

  Which is interesting because I feel like that stigma for the most part now has kind of gone away.

• 42:02Payton Moreland?

  I think a woman

• 42:03Garrett Moreland?

  It can be a boy or a girl that kills somebody.

• 42:04Payton Moreland?

  Could definitely do eleven hatchet wounds to the face.

• 42:07Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 42:09Payton Moreland?

  Forty, that's a lot, but eleven.

• 42:12Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 42:12Payton Moreland?

  Uh, I think that is definitely possible.

• 42:14Garrett Moreland?

  Makes sense. I guess that it was a hatchet. It's easier.

• 42:17Payton Moreland?

  But police were like, there's no way a woman could even throw a hatchet like that eleven times.

• 42:23Garrett Moreland?

  Interesting.

• 42:23Payton Moreland?

  Also, like I said, Lizzie was a Sunday school teacher, a wealthy, well-educated young woman who lived comfortably on her father's money. What motive did she even have for attacking her parents so violently? Like this is a very violent, personal, brutal attack. It just didn't seem right. And Lizzie seemingly had an excuse for all of it. When the pharmacist came forward saying, well, she did try to buy poison from me the day before. Lizzie was like, no, it was just to clean my coat. When asked why she didn't find Mrs. Borden right away, she was like, I assume she had already left the house. This was despite the fact that no note mentioning a sick friend was ever found at the crime scene. That story just came from Lizzie alone.

• 43:09Payton Moreland?

  Now, when Bridget, because obviously the maid was also there, so she gets interrogated.

• 43:16Garrett Moreland?

  I'm curious what she says because she had to have been there the whole time.

• 43:20Payton Moreland?

  She claims she was washing the windows outside.

• 43:25Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, but you

• 43:27Payton Moreland?

  Listen.

• 43:28Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 43:28Payton Moreland?

  She says she came in from washing the windows and she heard a wicked laugh in the other room around the time of Mrs. Borden's supposed to death, which again, a wicked. This is just one of those details from the past that I'm like, I don't know how many people would wickedly laugh while axing, like hatching someone to death, but back then it seems like that would be, oh, this is what we've heard. Of course she would wickedly laugh while killing her stepmother. You know what I mean?

• 43:59Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I just find it

• 44:00Payton Moreland?

  It feels too sensationalized to be true.

• 44:03Garrett Moreland?

  I just find it really hard to believe that you're axing somebody that to death.

• 44:08Payton Moreland?

  And laughing.

• 44:09Garrett Moreland?

  You're not, well, no, you're not hearing that outside.

• 44:11Payton Moreland?

  Right, right.

• 44:13Garrett Moreland?

  Like get out of here. There's just nah, there's no way.

• 44:15Payton Moreland?

  No, all she hears is the wicked laugh.

• 44:17Garrett Moreland?

  The wicked witch of the west.

• 44:19Payton Moreland?

  And said, the laugh was from Lizzie. Now, Lizzie was like, that couldn't have been true. When you came in from washing the windows, I wasn't even upstairs. I was outside as well. So you did not hear that laugh come from me. And then three days after the murders, Lizzie was caught by her friend, Alice Russell, her friend from down the street, trying to burn a blue corduroy dress in her kitchen oven.

• 44:47Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 44:48Payton Moreland?

  Alice is like, Lizzie, why are you burning clothes in your kitchen oven? She says, I got paint on the blue corduroy dress. It's permanently ruined. I'm just getting rid of it. Now, there were some other suspects considered along the way, like the other members of the household staff, including Bridget Sullivan, who was reportedly the only one home alone with Lizzie during the time of the murders. But she actually was reportedly seen washing the family windows outside the house.

• 45:16Garrett Moreland?

  Really? Okay.

• 45:17Payton Moreland?

  Cause neighbors and people walking down the street were like, no, she was outside washing windows.

• 45:21Garrett Moreland?

  She really was washing windows and didn't hear anything. I just kind of surprises me.

• 45:26Payton Moreland?

  There was also Uncle John Morse, who arrived home about forty-five minutes after the bodies were found. So remember he went and visited Denise, apparently. He comes home, the timing of his arrival the day before also caused suspicion because he was staying in the exact guest room where Abby Borden was killed. Why was she even in his room? However, John provided the police with a solid alibi, including the badge numbers of the horse car conductors who drove him to and from his other family's house that day. Emma, the oldest sister, was also considered for a moment, but again, she had a pretty solid alibi at her friend's house about fifteen miles away in Fairhaven. But there's also one other person, William Borden.

• 46:11Payton Moreland?

  Apparently, and this isn't brought up in the series. One of Andrew's sons that he had out of wedlock may have come back to the house to take revenge on the family after being financially cut off. So he had a son with someone else. They said that estranged son came back and killed his father and his father's wife. This theory does kind of seem to be maybe another work of historical fiction, though. His name never actually appears in any police records at the time. So it's like, was it just this made up story of this? You know, son that was in accident that came back for revenge.

• 46:57Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I mean, I obviously haven't heard the entire case yet, but my mind, Lizzie didn't like the mom.

• 47:07Garrett Moreland?

  She wanted money. I think she killed them for money. And I do kind of think the brother, the mom's, the dead mom's brother is involved.

• 47:18Payton Moreland?

  Uncle John.

• 47:20Garrett Moreland?

  To an extent of, hey, Lizzie, you should kill them and then we can share all this money. But let's hear how this keeps going.

• 47:27Payton Moreland?

  Oh, so it was like a conspiracy.

• 47:29Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, that's kind of what I think.

• 47:30Payton Moreland?

  And he's there to help, like,

• 47:31Garrett Moreland?

  For sure. Yeah.

• 47:32Payton Moreland?

  You know, I'll show up 45 minutes after the murder, handle the police. Okay. So after looking at everything, Lizzie Borden becomes suspect number one, mainly because her story had been changing. You know, she was caught burning the clothes in the oven. She did have motive. She really, really hated her parents at the time. They were, they were not getting along. So just five days after the murders, she began testifying at a police inquest. And once she gets to this, basically interrogation with police, her stories change again.

• 48:14Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, I hate it. I'm, I hate when stories change. Bugs me.

• 48:19Payton Moreland?

  I don't mind it when it's like modern day and there's recorded evidence of it.

• 48:23Garrett Moreland?

  True.

• 48:24Payton Moreland?

  But when it's been passed through like folklore and history, I'm like, is it, did it, did it really? So first she says she thought Abby had left. Now she's like, actually, I didn't think Mrs. Borden had left. I thought she was upstairs sewing when I came in. Previously, she said she actually saw Abby leave the house, heard the front door lock. And then she said, no, I actually heard my stepmom come home and go upstairs. Also, that would mean the front door was locked. So how did someone else get in the house? She also then says at one point that when her father came home from work that day, she greeted him and took off his boots for him. And then she's like, no, I didn't even know my father

• 49:06Payton Moreland?

  had come home from work. I didn't interact with him at all that morning because I was outside the whole time. Even the descriptions of her outfit that day were inconsistent, like what she had been wearing. It was a mess. But the family doctor testified on her behalf. He admitted he had given Lizzie a double dose of morphine that morning after the murders to help her calm down, help her sleep. And it probably caused a lot of confusion for her that day because first she stumbles upon her parents' murders and then he feeds her full of morphine. But one thing stayed consistent for Lizzie throughout the entire thing. She

• 49:49Payton Moreland?

  insists, I had no motive to kill my stepmother or father, which is quite literally the opposite of what everyone else in her life is saying. But she claimed she and Abby were quite cordial by the time of the murders and they had very kindly feelings for one another. And her sister, Emma, comes in and says, no, this is true. Like they didn't hate each other. They had kind of grown up. They had gotten over their beef a little bit, but the judge doesn't buy it. And on August 11th, one week after the murders, he issues a warrant for Lizzie's arrest and he has her catered off to jail. Unlike the Netflix series, she doesn't get

• 50:34Payton Moreland?

  a cushy one bedroom in a boarding house with a desk and a fully made bed, along with meals from the local hotel for her.

• 50:43Garrett Moreland?

  They put that in the show?

• 50:44Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, I think trying to play it to like the societal status at the time. I, I think there's always reasons that they fictionally make things up.

• 50:53Garrett Moreland?

  Sure. I mean, a lot of the reasons, like people don't realize it's, it keeps people watching and people might get annoyed or upset, but it's like, yeah, you actually might've turned that off like 30 minutes ago if it wasn't the way it is.

• 51:04Payton Moreland?

  Well, and also it is a fiction. I mean,

• 51:07Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 51:07Payton Moreland?

  They're very upfront that they are taking a real, it's based on real life events, but they are making a fictional series about it. And again, I do feel like a lot of the fictional things they put in are to try and stress other points in the case, like, well, she was high society, so she wouldn't have went to normal jail. So this isn't actually a normal case at all. You know what I mean?

• 51:29Garrett Moreland?

  Hundred percent.

• 51:29Payton Moreland?

  She was sent to a tiny nine by seven foot jail cell,

• 51:33Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 51:33Payton Moreland?

  where she spent the next nine months waiting for trial, being put on trial for murdering her parents.

• 51:40Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 51:41Payton Moreland?

  She was charged with first degree murder. This was shocking, shocking to the town. And if she was found guilty, she would be facing the death penalty.

• 51:49Garrett Moreland?

  I'm just like, who else would it have been? How to have been her? I, so I don't know if you're going to throw in a, something crazy, but in my mind is like, guys, it's definitely her.

• 51:58Payton Moreland?

  If she gets convicted, the authorities are saying, we are going to hang her.

• 52:04Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 52:05Payton Moreland?

  With that, Lizzie's case moves beyond her local town and starts making national headlines and surprisingly gained her plenty of support. A lot of women's groups started rallying around her. Remember she did a lot of volunteer work for women.

• 52:20Garrett Moreland?

  I get that, but if you killed someone, I don't want to hear it.

• 52:23Payton Moreland?

  With her father's money that is now left in her name, by the way, because her parents are dead.

• 52:30Garrett Moreland?

  She did get all the money.

• 52:31Payton Moreland?

  With her father's money, she buys the best lawyers a girl can find, including a former governor of Massachusetts and Boston's most prominent defense attorney. Now, nowadays, you're on trial for killing someone, you probably wouldn't inherit their money to be able to pay for your defense. I think that there are rules.

• 52:49Garrett Moreland?

  Yes, there are.

• 52:50Payton Moreland?

  State by state vary, but for that, uh, but no, she was allowed to do it. And she gets a former governor and the most prominent defense attorney.

• 52:58Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, good for her.

• 52:59Payton Moreland?

  And when it came time for her trial on June 7th, 1893, the evidence at this point seemed to also be on her side as well, or what you could consider evidence back then. Cause like I said, they didn't even collect the Menseys' rags. A Harvard chemist testified, there was no blood found on two hatchets or any other weapons retrieved from the family basement. Lizzie also reportedly turned over a dress that she claimed to be wearing the day of the murders. Mind you, she changed in her story to story what she was wearing, but she does end up turning the dress over to evidence and they find only a tiny spot of blood, which she found the bodies. So Lizzie did not take the stand at her own

• 53:43Payton Moreland?

  trial. Her attorneys did the work for her. They painted her to the jury as a well bred woman, saying she's practically a nun. She's wealthy. She was raised in a good family. She did all this volunteer work. She's not even married. She could never have committed a crime as vicious as this. Like how does a woman who teaches Sunday school brutally hatchet her parents to death? Now, a jury, mind you, that was exclusively composed of white, middle to upper class men, because this was the standard at the time for juries, which again,

• 54:22Garrett Moreland?

  Kind of benefits her to be honest.

• 54:23Payton Moreland?

  Well, because they didn't think she could physically do it either.

• 54:26Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah. I mean, I feel like it's something that is pretty apparent now, but I mean, it, it still happens to an extent. Like, how could that person do that? Like, there's no way that that person did this. And it's like, you truly just never know somebody.

• 54:42Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 54:42Garrett Moreland?

  Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter who you are.

• 54:44Payton Moreland?

  But that's our bias.

• 54:45Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 54:46Payton Moreland?

  Of so many biases.

• 54:47Garrett Moreland?

  Hundred percent.

• 54:48Payton Moreland?

  Again, women and foreign born immigrants weren't allowed to sit on juries at this time. So that basically leaves one type of person. The prosecution, however, tried to convince this jury that Lizzie was capable of this crime. And all it took was her extreme loathing of her stepmother, combined with a recent threat of Andrews to change the will into Abby's favor during their argument about money. Cause remember, the daughters had been arguing about money. Apparently Andrew, through word of mouth, threatened to change the will into Abby's favor, the stepmother, which means that you would then also have to get rid of the stepmother to inherit. Uh, bam. The prosecution's like, we have a motive.

• 55:34Payton Moreland?

  But the defense argued for reasonable doubt. Just a year before the deaths, the Borden home had actually been burglarized. The barn had been broken into twice. They said it was just as possible that it was some unknown assailant who was caught mid robbery. Like there have been unknown people wandering into this house before. If we're looking at history, it could have happened again. Although I will say in this case, there were no signs of forced entry. The jury heard testimony from Bridget, Uncle John, the dressmaker who recalled the comments Lizzie was making about her quote, mean, good for nothing stepmother, because they're trying to put on trial that she hated her. And her best friend, Alice Russell, who does get up and say, I caught her burning a dress.

• 56:19Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 56:19Payton Moreland?

  The defense brought on witnesses like Emma Borden, the oldest, who claimed she was the one who told Lizzie to burn the dress with paint on it. She's like, it just was ruined. I told her to burn it. Uh, along with other information that just helped her sister out. And a few others who reported seeing strangers lurking around the Borden property at the time of the murder. In the end, each side took over four hours to give their closing statements, which is kind of funny because that's like not law, a lot today, but for a trial back then where trials could have just lasted one day, it is a lot. The jury had their answer almost immediately. Again, unheard of, but not back then. After only

• 57:03Payton Moreland?

  an hour, they came back to say,

• 57:07Payton Moreland?

  Lizzie Borden was not guilty.

• 57:10Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 57:10Payton Moreland?

  She physically couldn't have done this.

• 57:12Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 57:13Payton Moreland?

  She emotionally couldn't have done this.

• 57:16Garrett Moreland?

  That's crazy because, I mean, I get it. I get it. It's a completely different. It's different.

• 57:21Payton Moreland?

  But also, there is no hard evidence. They didn't find a murder weapon. The maid was home, like you said, she didn't hear anything.

• 57:29Garrett Moreland?

  Didn't they find that hatchet?

• 57:30Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, but there was no blood on it. They just assumed that was the murder weapon. That's like how evidence went back in the day.

• 57:35Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess if you do look at it even now, like if you don't find a murder weapon.

• 57:39Payton Moreland?

  There's no eyewitness account.

• 57:40Garrett Moreland?

  No eyewitness accounts. There's probably a pretty good chance that person gets off anyways.

• 57:44Payton Moreland?

  I'm not saying they checked, but they didn't check her for defensive wounds. They didn't, or they didn't check her for offensive wounds, I guess I should say.

• 57:53Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 57:53Payton Moreland?

  They didn't check her fingernails to see if there was blood. They didn't check her clothing that day to see if there was blood. So, I mean, they didn't check, but they also, yeah, there was no evidence found.

• 58:05Garrett Moreland?

  How do you axe hatchet whatever somebody a dozen times and?

• 58:10Payton Moreland?

  Well, their theory is that she did the mom first cleaned up, did the dad cleaned up and then put on the show of finding the body screaming to Bridget. But I will say, axing your parents to death with your housemaid just innocently washing the windows outside.

• 58:27Garrett Moreland?

  That's what I'm saying. That part still is bugging me.

• 58:29Payton Moreland?

  But maybe not in that day, maybe not in that day and age. Maybe it was, well, if she comes in, I'll hatchet her too.

• 58:36Garrett Moreland?

  Kids screaming outside my house.

• 58:38Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 58:38Garrett Moreland?

  Like, there's no way you're axing somebody, you're stabbing whatever, somebody killing somebody and no one's hearing anything?

• 58:44Payton Moreland?

  Especially because we already know that this house didn't have.

• 58:50Garrett Moreland?

  Like, oh, insulation and stuff?

• 58:51Payton Moreland?

  There was no insulation in that house.

• 58:53Garrett Moreland?

  It depends. I'd like to look at their house because the house could be made of like all brick like they are in like Europe, for example. And then, yeah, it would be insulated better. Like, it would be pretty quiet.

• 59:01Payton Moreland?

  Hear through brick?

• 59:03Garrett Moreland?

  No, I'm just saying it would be better insulation.

• 59:05Payton Moreland?

  I'm just saying, how soundproof was these walls?

• 59:07Garrett Moreland?

  Houses were built a little bit differently.

• 59:10Payton Moreland?

  Maybe even better than nowadays, to be honest.

• 59:12Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, yeah, like a lot of the homes in Europe and stuff are just like wood and insulation.

• 59:17Payton Moreland?

  More stable.

• 59:18Garrett Moreland?

  It's like they're made from brick and concrete, so they're insulated differently. Anyways.

• 59:23Payton Moreland?

  Anyways, anyways. After the trial, Lizzie and Emma pulled their inheritance and bought a bigger mansion in Fall River.

• 59:32Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, my gosh, dude.

• 59:34Payton Moreland?

  That was, that was the mansion they thought their dad should have bought for them.

• 59:37Garrett Moreland?

  So Lizzie just got away with murder, allegedly.

• 59:40Payton Moreland?

  There, they spend the next 12 years of their life living together. These two sisters, they don't get married.

• 59:46Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 59:46Payton Moreland?

  They live off their father's inheritance in a mansion, which like, I can't blame them.

• 59:51Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 59:51Payton Moreland?

  It was a little weird for the times, though. Emma, who was a bit more conservative and introverted, kind of kept to herself. But Lizzie, after getting off at trial, she begins to kind of relish in her new fame. She enjoyed her new independence, her wealth. She started buying a lot of expensive things. She got in with a group of actors, throwing giant, over-the-top parties at her new house. In fact, if you watched the Netflix series, this is when she met that actress that she meets in the series. Not before the murders, so no.

• 1:00:26Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Payton Moreland?

  Um, but apparently, the differences in their new lifestyles led to a really tense rift between the sisters. And you know what this kind of reminds me of, interestingly enough? Is in the other Netflix series about the Menendez brothers?

• 1:00:41Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Payton Moreland?

  It's very similar where after the murders, they get a lot of money. They start, you know, living a more lavish lifestyle as two young kids would do, but one of the brothers kind of begins to crack. And that's almost how it feels like, according to sources, Emma starts to feel. Their new lifestyle leads to a rift between the sisters, so much so that in 1905, Emma packs her things and moves out of the mansion after an argument with Lizzie. Reportedly, the sisters never spoke or saw each other ever again.

• 1:01:12Garrett Moreland?

  Interesting.

• 1:01:13Payton Moreland?

  After that. And while Lizzie might have been accepted by the more liberal theater crowd, the community she was once a respected part of really shut her out.

• 1:01:23Garrett Moreland?

  Wow.

• 1:01:24Payton Moreland?

  After this trial, the townspeople of Fall River, including her old church crowd, were like, you might have been found innocent, but this is weird. You're kind of a pariah. Which is why she ends up changing her name to Lizbeth to try and reinvent herself. Get away from Lizzie Borden.

• 1:01:41Garrett Moreland?

  Change it to like Ashley or something.

• 1:01:43Payton Moreland?

  It never really worked. Lizzie could not get away from the crimes she was accused of and eventually became more and more reclusive. Came to a point that she barely left her home at all. And in 1926, Lizzie became really sick and had to get her gallbladder removed and never improved.

• 1:02:01Garrett Moreland?

  That's ironic.

• 1:02:02Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, she never improved from this, so she finally died at home on June 1st, 1927, which isn't going to happen to me because it's not 1927 anymore.

• 1:02:10Garrett Moreland?

  The reason we're saying it's ironic is because Peyton has to get her gallbladder removed.

• 1:02:13Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, but it's a safer surgery now. She was 66 years old. Emma died nine days later. Her older sister died nine days after her while living in a nursing home in New Hampshire at the age of 76. They were buried side by side in a family plot in Fall River right next to their father, their stepmother and their mother's.

• 1:02:37Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, my gosh, that's so ironic.

• 1:02:39Payton Moreland?

  Before her death, Lizzie made sure her tombstone read Lizbeth Andrews Borden. So her new name. So that is basically the end of the overall story. I'm going to do just a little quick synopsis on the Netflix show. If you haven't watched it, you can just end here. If you have, this is just like a fun little add-in. Uh, if you watch the Netflix series, you're probably starting to realize there were a lot of creative liberties taken. A lot of it hinges on the urban legends surrounding Lizzie and the rumors, which makes for good entertainment, but not really historical accuracy. So let's talk about the big ones. Starting with the elephant in the room that isn't even really a part of the real story, but was a huge part

• 1:03:24Payton Moreland?

  of the Netflix story. Did Lizzie Borden actually have a lesbian affair with Bridget, the maid? And did they do this together?

• 1:03:33Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, that was one of the things?

• 1:03:34Payton Moreland?

  That's one of the big motives is Bridget taught her how to kill and said, let's kill and take your parents' money and run away together.

• 1:03:41Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, my gosh. Okay.

• 1:03:42Payton Moreland?

  The answer is, there is no evidence.

• 1:03:45Garrett Moreland?

  Well, because Bridget didn't, it's not like Bridget lived with her afterwards or anything. So it's, I don't know if I believe that one.

• 1:03:50Payton Moreland?

  There was no evidence that this was the case. Apparently, there were some rumors circulating later in Lizzie's life that she might be gay because she never got married. But there is zero indication that she ever had a relationship with Bridget the maid. There's also zero indication that Bridget the maid was involved with the murders. Remember, she has an alibi. She was seen outside of the house by multiple people.

• 1:04:12Garrett Moreland?

  Windows, okay.

• 1:04:14Payton Moreland?

  No charges were ever brought against her for being part of the plan. And there's also the entire story about the neighbor, Bertha Manchester, who in the series borrowed Bridget from the family for a few days and assaulted her. Later in the show, Lizzie ends up killing Bertha first before killing her parents in defense of Bridget.

• 1:04:37Garrett Moreland?

  Are they were just killing random people in the series?

• 1:04:39Payton Moreland?

  Multiple murders in this series.

• 1:04:41Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 1:04:41Payton Moreland?

  In real life, Bertha Manchester did exist, but her murder took place nearly 10 months after the Borden's and Lizzie was already sitting in jail. So that actually has nothing to do with her. They caught the man, um, or reportedly, they caught the man. And then we have the Eileen Warnos of it all, which is a female serial killer. Garrett has no idea who that is.

• 1:05:08Garrett Moreland?

  Nope.

• 1:05:08Payton Moreland?

  She is brought into the Netflix story and portrayed because later on, like lots later on in the eighties, um, she is very much inspired by Lizzie Borden in the Netflix series. This, she's killing men and she's so inspired by Lizzie Borden who stood up to her evil parents and killed them. None of this is true. There's no historical evidence that she was ever obsessed with Lizzie Borden. There's no records that she talked about her at all during her life. And she did not go to the Lizzie Borden house and have a ghost experience with Lizzie Borden because it didn't become a bed and breakfast until 96 and Warnos was already convicted and serving her sentence at the time, but it did become a bed and breakfast.

• 1:05:50Payton Moreland?

  The home where the murders happened. As I mentioned, there was also no plan to poison the Borden's with oysters. That came out of nowhere. They were pigeons, not doves, and the doves died at the hands of Andrew, allegedly not Abby. There again was no lesbian love affair. We actually don't really know what happened to Bridget, except that she settled down and got married after the trial. The murder weapon wasn't believed to be an axe. It was believed to be a hatchet, but the biggest thing the show might have exaggerated or got wrong entirely, which it's not just the show, it's history in general. Was making Abby the ultimate villain, the evil stepmother. While they do not seem to have a great relationship.

• 1:06:36Payton Moreland?

  It wasn't her perpetual torture of Lizzie that caused Lizzie to then one day pick up a hatchet and kill them. It was a lot more likely to be money.

• 1:06:46Garrett Moreland?

  And the reason I think it might have been money, I mean, look what happens after they were dead. This lavish spending, lavish spending, partying.

• 1:06:54Payton Moreland?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:06:55Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know.

• 1:06:56Payton Moreland?

  And it was done strategically. Some accounts say she killed Abby first because if she had killed Andrew first, part of his estate would have been given over to Abby's family. But if Abby died before Andrew, she and Emma, the daughters would inherit it all, which is exactly what ended up happening. There are also whispers that Lizzie was abused physically and sexually, but by her father, not by Abby. There's not much evidence to support this, but papers at the time sort of initiated it.

• 1:07:28Garrett Moreland?

  Which that one's hard because, I mean, that's something that could very well be true.

• 1:07:33Payton Moreland?

  Yes.

• 1:07:33Garrett Moreland?

  But it was, I mean, it's obviously now still hidden. And back then it was even more hidden.

• 1:07:39Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, I will say historians of the case do later. They do bring it up because it was written in local newspapers at the time, but they don't bring it up as fact. They bring it up as this was brought up in papers and we don't know why. Where did this come from? What were the sources? Whatever, whatever, whatever.

• 1:07:56Garrett Moreland?

  Interesting.

• 1:07:57Payton Moreland?

  I think the biggest thing was that, and this happens a lot in when we see fictionalized series about killings is we tend to sometimes see justification of the murder. Like we make the stepmom, the villain so villainous and so cruel and so evil. You're almost rooting for her to be dead.

• 1:08:17Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, I mean, that happens in, it happens a lot of time.

• 1:08:20Payton Moreland?

  All the time. And it kind of seems like not just here, but in this story in general. Lizzie has kind of been made out to be a hero, that her parents were villains, like her dad wouldn't give her any money. And her stepmom was mean and her and her sister were locked in this house as adults and couldn't get married because the father never approved of anyone and like, there's always some, oh, she broke free. She killed her parents and broke free. But as we know, there is no heroism in cold blooded murder, no matter what events get us there. So the next time you hear Lizzie's story, or even consider dressing up as her for Halloween.

• 1:09:03Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, don't do that.

• 1:09:04Payton Moreland?

  Think about the real Lizzie Borden, the truth behind this story, the alleged accusations. This case is still unsolved because she was found not guilty at trial. No one actually, according to the law, has down who killed her parents. Sometimes those we don't think are capable of being a monster can be the scariest, most dangerous monsters of all. And that is the real case of Lizzie Borden and the murder of her parents, Andrew and Abby.

• 1:09:41Garrett Moreland?

  Interesting because I mean, I haven't seen a Netflix show, so I'm sure it would sway me in like a different direction than what you just told me.

• 1:09:49Payton Moreland?

  I think it's different enough. It wouldn't.

• 1:09:51Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 1:09:52Payton Moreland?

  Some, I, I will say like for the Menendez version of monsters, which is the same series.

• 1:09:59Garrett Moreland?

  Oh yeah, that was like a one eighty.

• 1:10:01Payton Moreland?

  Swayed a lot of people. You had a lot. It was hard. They were really pushing empathy, which is also happens in real life with that case. So the lines were a lot more blurred and gray. I think in this portrayal, it's so fictionalized that it doesn't even like blur the lines really.

• 1:10:19Garrett Moreland?

  Interesting. Okay.

• 1:10:20Payton Moreland?

  But if you disagree with that, you watched it and you disagree, please let me know. All right, you guys, that was our episode for today. Thank you guys so much for listening and we will see you next time with another one. I love it.

• 1:10:32Garrett Moreland?

  I hate it.

• 1:10:33Payton Moreland?

  Goodbye.

• 1:10:41Speaker 03

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