HBO’s Upcoming TV Slate, the Many Ghosts of ‘Industry,’ and ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ E3

Chris and Andy talk about a handful of updates from HBO boss Casey Bloys on the current status of the network and what the immediate future looks like (6:30). Then they react to Jim Dycker’s downward spiral on the latest episode of ‘Industry’ and the many ghosts from seasons past that continue to haunt the show (19:43), before talking about the big reveal on ‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Episode 3 (51:56). Later, The Watch: After Dark (1:04:38). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! The Casey Bloys Deadline Interview Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Jamie Yukich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:17Speaker 01

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 1:23Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, turning Ultravox up way too loud for this time of night.

• 1:34Andy Greenwald?

  That was nice.

• 1:35Chris Ryan?

  It's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:37Andy Greenwald?

  I love your energy. We're coming from different places right now.

• 1:40Chris Ryan?

  It's spiritually 1:00 PM in the afternoon for me. Maybe this is when I should be podding. Greenwald, great to see you. TheWatch at Spotify.com, TheWatchPod underscore on Instagram. You can watch us on Ringer-TV on YouTube. You can watch us and listen to us on Spotify. I'm back from Boston. My hearing is intact. Had a great, great, great weekend at Something in the Way Fest. Yasi and I went to do a live show with Pat Flynn from Fiddlehead and his new band, How Much Art, who played over at Something in the Way Fest. It's awesome.

• 2:12Andy Greenwald?

  Good band name.

• 2:12Chris Ryan?

  You gotta check that band out.

• 2:15Chris Ryan?

  We did a live show with him. We did a live band spleen. And then Yasi and I presented Repo Man at the Coolidge Corner Theater, which is one of my favorite movie theaters in the country. And so great. So many people seeing Repo Man for the first time.

• 2:29Andy Greenwald?

  That's fun.

• 2:29Chris Ryan?

  Young faces.

• 2:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 2:31Chris Ryan?

  The CR demo, getting younger, you know?

• 2:34Andy Greenwald?

  Great. That's really good.

• 2:36Chris Ryan?

  I was worried, you know, you wonder whether you're gonna age, it's your audience and you guys are just gonna die together, right?

• 2:41Andy Greenwald?

  No, you are like the Wooderson of podcasting.

• 2:45Chris Ryan?

  That's right. I get older, these dudes keep discovering heat at exactly the same age.

• 2:50Andy Greenwald?

  It's really worked out for you.

• 2:51Chris Ryan?

  No, it's great to see everybody. Boston was very friendly and very cold. It's really awesome to just go to a music festival. Eight degree weather, but it was, it was great.

• 3:01Andy Greenwald?

  I also loved this because I got, right when we finished recording last week, I got a little bit of insight into what the weekend would be like, because I was there for the dawn of my new favorite buddy comedy, which is you and Yasi, travel companions.

• 3:16Andy Greenwald?

  It was awesome. You famously can roll with just about anything as long as you have your.

• 3:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeketin.

• 3:24Andy Greenwald?

  I was gonna say Uncrustables, but basically, yes.

• 3:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:27Andy Greenwald?

  And then, and then Yasi just had a really beautifully chaotic energy. She was carrying a fur coat. She had sent an Uber to get her sunglasses.

• 3:34Chris Ryan?

  She had never been to Massachusetts before. She was quite worried about the cold, yeah.

• 3:37Andy Greenwald?

  No, I think it was, it was modeled on a tauntaun, but it was fake. And, and you guys, from what I understand, spent every second together and I love it.

• 3:44Chris Ryan?

  No, I mean, like it was the flights, it was the meals, it was the shows, and then we would take an appropriate break to, to go read about Jeffrey Epstein and, and come back together and share our learning.

• 3:55Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that we should promote, like in the same way that like maybe some companies allow people to like, oh no, how about like a professional kitchen? When you can, you can stage at other restaurants or you can like, if you usually work.

• 4:06Chris Ryan?

  Like Nova?

• 4:07Andy Greenwald?

  The grill station. I couldn't afford, I don't know, it couldn't be me.

• 4:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Andy Greenwald?

  The grill station, then you work vegetables or mise en place, like, should we do that with a podcast? Where like, cause you just had your banter excursion. What, uh, like, could we swap it up? Could we do like a fun Freaky Friday week when everyone's on different?

• 4:24Chris Ryan?

  Well, we've talked about that before, you know, your contract is very complicated. You know, there was a lot of performance based incentive based, you know?

• 4:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I would just go on Philly special for 20 minutes.

• 4:34Chris Ryan?

  Exactly.

• 4:34Andy Greenwald?

  But I'm saying everyone else would have a lot of fun.

• 4:36Chris Ryan?

  Exactly. The Sean Mannion Chronicles.

• 4:38Andy Greenwald?

  Can I ask you another thing, but we're going to get into our normal.

• 4:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I do want to talk about, uh, Night of the Seven Kingdoms eventually with you. And I went on, I mean, I went on, I, I did talk the thrones this weekend with Mal and Joanna, and we had a reaction to that. You can find that on House of R, but industry is going to take up, I think, the majority of this conversation.

• 4:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. We are coming, you, you just, you were just across the country, you were in cold weather. I'm coming off, I would say roughly two and a half, three hours of sleep and then four hours of international zooming. So I might be in a different place, but you did mention everyone's favorite reading material from the weekend. The files, the E files. And I just want to say one thing, I just like, this is the one, obviously my first through 70th thought were, you know, increasing levels of horror. Did you think that when you saw the, the emails that were like, so sorry, I have no time to, I have no time to waste with diplomats. I am currently running three companies.

• 5:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Andy Greenwald?

  And like, you know, whatever, about to launch things. Did that remind you of texts that maybe I would have sent you? Like in the early 2010s, when you'd be like, do you want to get dinner? And I was like, actually, the NBC Thursday night lineup is quite stacked. Up All Night is premiering with Will Arnett and Christina Applegate. Thus, I must decline your invitation to produce this content.

• 6:00Chris Ryan?

  Getting into like.

• 6:01Andy Greenwald?

  I just was worried.

• 6:02Chris Ryan?

  TV criticism?

• 6:03Andy Greenwald?

  Not even, I just worried that there may be a strain and you would be the one to call me on this. They like throughout our friendship, have I ever front loaded my righteous reasons for not doing something cool?

• 6:14Chris Ryan?

  No worries. Yes, yes.

• 6:16Andy Greenwald?

  Not the one he was talking about. That was cool. I want to tread carefully here, but there was a kind of tone that

• 6:22Chris Ryan?

  That you recognized.

• 6:23Andy Greenwald?

  I worried. It's definitely, um, that reminds me of when my father had an AOL account. So I did understand the sort of like, actually.

• 6:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:32Andy Greenwald?

  But I worried that I've done that for you. Maybe I've missed out on some good times like, um, music festivals in Boston.

• 6:37Chris Ryan?

  Possibly. You know what I mean? Sometimes you just gotta say yes.

• 6:41Andy Greenwald?

  That's really.

• 6:41Chris Ryan?

  To music festivals in Boston.

• 6:43Andy Greenwald?

  And that's it. No longer sort of travel.

• 6:45Chris Ryan?

  I, uh, I spent a lot of time, you know, you're basically, I was just in a hotel room because it was so cold. You couldn't really like gallivant around Boston. Uh, and I, and I did, I did imbibe in reading deep into the lore.

• 7:00Andy Greenwald?

  Did you?

• 7:01Chris Ryan?

  And I gotta say, after doing that, Charlie Heaton's speech at the end of Industry last night made a lot more sense to me.

• 7:07Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you for connecting the dots there.

• 7:09Chris Ryan?

  It felt like not that kooky.

• 7:11Andy Greenwald?

  No, it felt pretty lucid, honestly.

• 7:14Chris Ryan?

  Um, we're going to talk about Industry, uh, 1,000 Utes.

• 7:18Andy Greenwald?

  No other notes from, no other news?

• 7:19Chris Ryan?

  Oh, my bad. Yeah. We'll talk about that episode in a second. Um, we did want to do a little bit of a recap of Casey Bloys.

• 7:28Andy Greenwald?

  Kai liked it. Kai wants to talk about Melania at the height. What a, what a great gross for a doc, first of all. Can we all just agree on that?

• 7:33Chris Ryan?

  That was, I'm glad everybody sung that note.

• 7:35Andy Greenwald?

  That's the headline. Really? What a gross doc is what we're saying.

• 7:42Chris Ryan?

  Uh, we were going to hit on Casey Bloys's deadline.com interview and talking about kind of some HBO stuff. You know what? This was like, this Casey was asked 400 times about Game of Thrones shows and he, and he volleyed and, and, and par, and sort of parried away from a bunch of that stuff. I, I think those shows will come and go as, as they are ready to be done. But here's some headlines. We had, obviously we haven't really even commented on this, but the White Lotus season forecasting is pretty much locked up, I think. And it's Helena Bonham Carter.

• 8:13Andy Greenwald?

  This is so, how does he do this? He, how does, I mean, talk about an artist who is in control of his instrument.

• 8:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. It's Helena Bonham Carter.

• 8:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 8:21Chris Ryan?

  Alexander Ludwig, who you may remember from Vikings, uh, no show that you definitely rocked.

• 8:25Andy Greenwald?

  I don't.

• 8:26Chris Ryan?

  Uh, Chris Messina, Steve Coogan, Ali Machalka.

• 8:30Andy Greenwald?

  From AJ and, and.

• 8:31Chris Ryan?

  Which I've never watched and a couple of other folks who I have not, I'm not as familiar with their work. Um, but those are the big, big names.

• 8:38Andy Greenwald?

  There's more to come.

• 8:39Chris Ryan?

  Oh, you think so?

• 8:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. I mean, the cast generally have a few more people.

• 8:43Chris Ryan?

  I wonder if it's a tighter cast this year? I don't know.

• 8:46Andy Greenwald?

  Budget cuts?

• 8:46Chris Ryan?

  No, but but it was an unwieldy brood last season, you know?

• 8:52Andy Greenwald?

  It's true. Well, the-

• 8:52Chris Ryan?

  It felt like it was in a couple of different-

• 8:54Andy Greenwald?

  The various nodes of the polycule of the casts, each one had multiple people in it.

• 9:00Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 9:00Andy Greenwald?

  Do you remember that there was a, maybe the last good time on X.com, the everything app, was when everyone was like posting pictures and they were like, True Detective season two?

• 9:11Andy Greenwald?

  No fun faux casting of The White Lotus can ever do it as well as Mike White actually does it. Like Steve Coogan and Helena Bonham Carter is elite.

• 9:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 9:22Andy Greenwald?

  It's incredibly exciting. This guy just understands market deficiencies and inefficiencies.

• 9:27Chris Ryan?

  I hope Steve Coogan is just doing Michael Caine from Dark Knight. He's just talking about how he won't bury another Batman.

• 9:33Andy Greenwald?

  I want him to be doing Philomena.

• 9:35Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah. Is that your shit?

• 9:37Andy Greenwald?

  I prefer a serious Steve Coogan. No, I can't wait to see this. Sorry, I'm interrupting you. Go ahead.

• 9:41Chris Ryan?

  Uh, no. And then, so there was a little bit of that. The pit is gonna stick to its annual, but maybe not like January to January-

• 9:50Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 9:50Chris Ryan?

  Uh, schedule, but Casey said that he expects the pit to be an annual season and that they're starting to generate ideas for season three. House of the Dragon is, looks to end on season four, and Casey got into a little bit of the fallout between George R.R. Martin and Ryan Condal, the showrunner for that show. And he was like, he was just like, hey, you know, uh-

• 10:12Andy Greenwald?

  Family's Fight?

• 10:13Chris Ryan?

  Family's Fight, just ours, this one broke out into the open.

• 10:18Chris Ryan?

  Night of the Seven Kingdoms is currently shooting season two.

• 10:20Andy Greenwald?

  Wild.

• 10:21Chris Ryan?

  Euphoria, which is coming on for its third season in the spring, could do a fourth season. There are now rumors that Sam Levinson has a couple of ideas for it.

• 10:34Chris Ryan?

  And then it, he didn't say this, but I would guess by the numbers, the enthusiasm, and the trajectory, and his comments, which were vague but leaning positive, is that they will renew industry for season five.

• 10:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, I think he's clearly very pleased with it. I think he feels, he and the entire team there feel very invested in it. And then you can see now- The almost it's almost quaint like the old school marketing machinery that HBO still has access to sort of rumble to life for something that

• 11:05Chris Ryan?

  Is rolling downhill when they get some momentum with it.

• 11:07Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly, well said. Like I, you know, obviously it was COVID, so that I don't think there was ever going to be a big premiere, but there haven't been a lot of like co-brands of the industry.

• 11:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:15Andy Greenwald?

  Leading into the season, there have been so many that like the entire cast were ringing the bell at the stock exchange and then having like an all-nighter at Boiler Room.

• 11:22Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 11:23Andy Greenwald?

  Like the show with the young cast who actually like each other and like to go out present a lot of opportunities for this sort of thing.

• 11:28Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 11:28Andy Greenwald?

  So I feel like they're enjoying that.

• 11:30Chris Ryan?

  I had one sort of broader observation from this entire interview.

• 11:34Andy Greenwald?

  I had an observation too. Why don't you go first?

• 11:35Chris Ryan?

  Okay. It was really interesting to watch Casey do Moneyball throughout this interview and talk about in a way that I think many people who lead networks or or run programming departments and I'm sure they're all conscientious of their budgets.

• 11:53Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:54Chris Ryan?

  But whether it's because they have to keep up with the Joneses or because they work for technology companies that are like, there is no limit, you know, if you need to spend $80 million on a show that never comes out or whatever, go for it. Several times in this interview, and we'll put the link to the interview, the deadline interview in the show notes, he refers to like just basically like savvy business decisions. So whether it's

• 12:19Andy Greenwald?

  A lot of heated rivalry.

• 12:20Chris Ryan?

  Efficiency of making the pit in California and being able to turn it over in that sense. There's a really interesting conversation about them licensing heated rivalry from Crave, which is the Canadian network, having the rights to it for several seasons, I believe, but not being on the hook to renegotiate with this cast

• 12:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 12:41Chris Ryan?

  That has now reached, I'm hosting SNL levels.

• 12:44Andy Greenwald?

  But the implication was that Crave is going after renegotiate.

• 12:49Chris Ryan?

  Can Crave afford to do that?

• 12:51Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know what the looney is doing right now. Look, Mark Carney can work one doors on the global stage.

• 12:56Chris Ryan?

  That's true. That's true.

• 12:57Andy Greenwald?

  That was very interesting, clearly something that he was very involved with, which we know to be the case and is very proud of.

• 13:03Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 13:03Andy Greenwald?

  That is just...

• 13:04Chris Ryan?

  And then he talked about Night of the Seven Kingdoms being a very affordable, within the context of Game of Thrones, affordable show to make, although it sounds like season two, they have to shoot it in like, more of like a desert climb.

• 13:16Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, that's exciting.

• 13:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 13:18Andy Greenwald?

  The other thing that broke concurrently is HBO Max's long rumored, not rumored, I mean, they've been talking about it, that they have a cop companion show for the pit called American Blue.

• 13:30Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I did not know about this.

• 13:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, this was...

• 13:31Chris Ryan?

  Is that in the interview?

• 13:33Andy Greenwald?

  No, it's not. It broke also on deadline, the same day. This has been in development for a while. It's, comes from supernatural showrunner Jeremy Carver. Basically, as part of the, the pitification, the networkization, broadcastization, whatever, of the Max platform, or HBO Max platform, they were like, let's see if we can do this in the three spaces that traditionally broadcast networks operated in.

• 13:55Chris Ryan?

  Doctors, cops.

• 13:57Andy Greenwald?

  And family dramas. So, the family drama is still forthcoming, or at least in development, from the Berlanti universe, under his overhaul at Warner Brothers. But American Blue was the one that kind of took the pole position for the cop show.

• 14:09Chris Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 14:10Andy Greenwald?

  And Milo Ventimiglia was just cast as the lead, and David, David Ayer is going to direct the pilot.

• 14:15Chris Ryan?

  David Ayer knows his way around a cop drama.

• 14:17Andy Greenwald?

  And it, and it's another, I mean, the, the logline is about a native son returning to his hometown of Joliet, Illinois, to rescue, to rescue a beleaguered police force while seeking redemption of his own. The character, Brian Milk, Milkovich.

• 14:34Chris Ryan?

  Much like Robbie, Robbie Vinnie.

• 14:36Andy Greenwald?

  That's the thing, I kind of, you remember when we used to do like...

• 14:40Chris Ryan?

  They can tweak that.

• 14:40Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I'm saying. When we used to do like the Jonas Serra take the glasses off Hollywood Fixer thing, I just feel like, the nickname guy, like you, Jeremy Carver and everybody at HBO Max, you're busy.

• 14:51Chris Ryan?

  Do you think he'll have a sassy desk sergeant named Lana instead of Dana?

• 14:54Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, if we're real, and it's gonna do like 15 hours.

• 14:57Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 14:57Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think it's, the, there's no, there's no insinuation that it's going to be the 24 style, like, like in real time.

• 15:04Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Andy Greenwald?

  But yeah.

• 15:07Andy Greenwald?

  But yeah, just it's interesting and it's savvy both to be making these moves behind the scenes to get costs down and get a bigger return on investment. And it's very smart to be forward facing about that as Casey is in the interview. I would say, and I'm not here to do any kind of like media critique, I'll save that for my appearance on the press box, which is being negotiated right now by a lot of teams.

• 15:28Chris Ryan?

  Good luck with that.

• 15:29Andy Greenwald?

  So I don't want to criticize any media reporting, and Nellie has been doing this for a very long time. But I was curious to note that the much of her interview was kind of like you said, it was kind of just like serve and volleying of her trying to get him to crack about release dates and renewals, which obviously are headline drivers and there's a lot of curiosity about it.

• 15:46Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you just get scoops out of that.

• 15:47Andy Greenwald?

  But but there's so much more to this story here. Like Casey pushed back really hard on the development stuff because he doesn't want to a give them headlines that they can't back up. But also, like, it seems to be very important to him that there really have been only two Game of Thrones shows, that this isn't like flooding the zone like Marvel in 2020. So he didn't comment on Sea Snakes and Aria or whatever the other things in development were. But I just felt like it was a missed opportunity to kind of ask more about the philosophical programming decisions that they're making to stay distinct and to stay relevant, which has become almost existential, not just for Casey, but for HBO. Meaning, how do you cut through the noise? That's what they've all been dealing with

• 16:28Andy Greenwald?

  in this world of, you know, 400, 500 scripted shows, although that number is going down. But particularly, how do you stay like essentially a killer app when you are potentially about to be subsumed into Netflix?

• 16:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 16:41Andy Greenwald?

  How do you work? How do you continue to do what they've done, which has worked the very high level and stuff, the prestige stuff that wins awards, the popcorn stuff, and now the sort of cost effective stuff, and the one for us, like as he mentions in this in the story, like.

• 16:54Chris Ryan?

  Somebody somewhere.

• 16:55Andy Greenwald?

  How do you? How do you continue to make the right choices on all of those different playing fields all at the same time? I think that's interesting and how the market forces and the upcoming market forces may have changed or affected their decision making.

• 17:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that the it wouldn't be a nightmare scenario because FX obviously does really good work within the context of the Disney infrastructure.

• 17:17Chris Ryan?

  But it would be a strange experience to kind of evaluate HBO as a vertical within Netflix, you know, and to not think of it as something that was sort of on its own. And then frankly, like, I think the week to week releases really do help create like a world of conversation around HBO shows because that's what people are watching. We're currently covering three broadly HBO or HBO Max shows on the pod and almost to the expense of everything else. And that's because we can do so for two months. If the pit went up over the course of a weekend, we'd probably be done with it, you know, in three or four days to, you know, in terms of covering it. So I think that the biggest question I have about the

• 18:01Chris Ryan?

  potential merger or the potential acquisition of HBO in the Netflix world is like, what happens to the release model?

• 18:08Andy Greenwald?

  Well, you know,

• 18:09Chris Ryan?

  They have not moved off of that, you know, for as much as they're talking about theatrical, for as much as they experiment with live, for as much as Stranger Things was parceled out over the course of three holidays, which was obviously to eventize it. I haven't seen anything that would suggest that they wouldn't put the pit up entirely in one weekend.

• 18:28Andy Greenwald?

  It's a great question. And would they treat the traditional, you know, A-list brand HBO shows like White Lotus differently than they would treat this new, these newfangled 15-hour HBO Max shows? Now, that's a way down the line conversation because they haven't even, this hasn't even gone through yet. I keep coming back to this and I don't know, and maybe our listeners and emailers will give me their perspective on this, people who might know more than I do about it. But I do have a feeling, and this is not just like my vibes, I mean, people have said as much to me, that Ted Sarandos does appreciate the uniqueness of the things that he is attempting to acquire, that he does like what DeLuca and Abdi are doing with Warner Brothers theatrical, and he likes going to the movies sometimes.

• 19:13Andy Greenwald?

  I think he also likes and admires HBO and what they've been able to do and why they still are considered the crown jewel. And I think he understands that the release model is part of that. The question is appreciation versus stewardship.

• 19:25Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 19:26Andy Greenwald?

  And how long it takes because what is the what is the TV equivalent of what many people are predicting, which is that he will respect theatrical windows, they're just going to get shorter.

• 19:35Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 19:35Andy Greenwald?

  What is the, what is the TV version of that?

• 19:37Chris Ryan?

  I thought it was interesting.

• 19:38Andy Greenwald?

  That these shows become like what he's doing with Bridgerton, where it's like half and half seasons.

• 19:41Chris Ryan?

  Yes, but those are when those shows are up in the top, the 99th percentile of Netflix shows.

• 19:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Chris Ryan?

  You know, I thought it was interesting, and I'm sure Sean and Amanda will comment on this in more depth. Christopher Nolan made his first comments as his, in his role as the president of the DGA and had a lot to say about theatrical windows.

• 20:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 20:02Chris Ryan?

  And was sort of like, the only thing that distinguishes this, basically like Sarandos's like attitude towards theatrical windows will be a huge like indicator of where this industry is going. And whether or not theatrical is just sort of like a quick exhibition to qualify for something or to like have something in the theater for, you know, a week, or whether it's going to be like, we're going to keep using the movie theater as like the primary way people are experiencing this art form.

• 20:30Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, thank God for Jeff Bezos and Amazon, committed to the theatrical model.

• 20:34Chris Ryan?

  They sure are.

• 20:35Andy Greenwald?

  Even for just sort of scrappy docs. You know what I mean? Like, they believe in that, like getting people out to the theater.

• 20:44Andy Greenwald?

  You want to, do you want to weigh in?

• 20:45Chris Ryan?

  I'm not scared to weigh in, I just, I think almost like-

• 20:48Andy Greenwald?

  Your silence is deafening.

• 20:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it is. Well, it's deafening because I lost my voice screaming while I was reading Epstein.

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• 21:54Chris Ryan?

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• 22:49Chris Ryan?

  All right, let's get into industry. How about that? Okay. This is a really good episode of television. This show has now kind of gotten into that, like, the breaking of the rules is the rule zone where, you know, the last...

• 23:01Andy Greenwald?

  Disruption, disruption.

• 23:02Chris Ryan?

  It's not even that. I'm not even trying to like, give it tech keywords or anything like that. There is something really exciting about not knowing what's going to happen in the last, like, as, as we kind of like approached the last stretch of this episode and you've got Whitney and Henry having their kind of Edie and Neil heat moment staring out over the landscape. Sort of, you know?

• 23:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, sort of.

• 23:27Chris Ryan?

  And...

• 23:28Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't remember that part of the movie, but...

• 23:29Chris Ryan?

  But that felt very Michael Mann to me. Like, the two guys staring out into the city.

• 23:33Andy Greenwald?

  More like Michael Mann on Mann.

• 23:35Chris Ryan?

  Michael Men, yes.

• 23:36Andy Greenwald?

  Michael Men. Men who love men.

• 23:38Chris Ryan?

  You know, that's the conclusion of the episode in a lot of ways, that, you know, you've had, you've got the Haley and Yasmin moment in the, in the elevator. You've got the, the boys in the office.

• 23:47Andy Greenwald?

  Got some other boys.

• 23:48Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and then, and then it keeps going. You know what I mean? And you get Jim Dycker's.

• 23:53Andy Greenwald?

  This part, yeah.

• 23:54Chris Ryan?

  Um, colossal kind of like public scandal breaking with his relationship to not only Harper, but his inappropriate relationship with Haley. It gets to his editor. His editor is recommending his termination.

• 24:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 24:09Chris Ryan?

  Jim spiraling, goes to a pub, gets a bag, has a bag, whatever.

• 24:14Andy Greenwald?

  There's bags.

• 24:15Chris Ryan?

  The bag man is also at the pub. Rishi, it turns out these two have been circling each other. It turns out Rishi is the one who broke into Jim's flat earlier, looking for himself an edge on something that he could get involved with to like make more money in the market. The two of them recognize each other as lost souls and have, uh.

• 24:33Andy Greenwald?

  And pawns in a way, right?

• 24:35Chris Ryan?

  A dark knight of the lost soul, and that can get pretty fucking dark.

• 24:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Chris Ryan?

  And what transpires is a quiet, like a resting and blazing performance from Heaton.

• 24:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Chris Ryan?

  And just that eerie, like, industry can be like, it'll be four on the floor and you're like, I know the rhythm. I know what's happening. I know the beat. And then something will come up like the weird pub bar fly.

• 25:00Andy Greenwald?

  That was great.

• 25:01Chris Ryan?

  Who's standing in the back, turning the music up all the time and kind of amping up the drama. And the, the episode ends with Dycker ODing.

• 25:10Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:11Chris Ryan?

  And Rishi flinging himself off his own balcony as the cops are coming into his flat, but not dying.

• 25:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 25:18Chris Ryan?

  Breaking at least a leg, I imagine. Might have some ACL problems in the other one.

• 25:24Andy Greenwald?

  What's it, what's our, what's our, what's our god's name? Dr. James Glashow? What's his name?

• 25:27Chris Ryan?

  James, James Andrews and there is a James.

• 25:30Andy Greenwald?

  What? The dude who built a new Joel Embiid.

• 25:33Chris Ryan?

  Right. That dude works for the Sixers.

• 25:35Andy Greenwald?

  Jonathan Glashow. He doesn't, but he works for the city of Philadelphia now. We're gonna put up his, you don't know about this? We're gonna hang his jersey.

• 25:41Chris Ryan?

  I thought it was like some guy who works for the Sixers who just like knee whispered him.

• 25:45Andy Greenwald?

  No, he's an NYC orthopedic surgeon, Dr. Jonathan Glashow. We're gonna hang it.

• 25:49Chris Ryan?

  All right, relax.

• 25:50Andy Greenwald?

  You know, this is the most excited I've been all pot. All right, go on. Let's go back to episode of the year.

• 25:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, okay. I didn't say that. I just, it's like, it's really, really great and, uh. You know, you've talked about this really much more eloquently than I did, but just them writing themselves into corners.

• 26:06Andy Greenwald?

  Well, it's both writing yourself into corners and acknowledging, like, not throwing, in gambling terms, a subject I know nothing about, but not throwing bad money after good. Meaning, when you commit to doing something, deal with the reality of it to the extent that you can, and then if you have to walk away, you walk away. And not many shows have the courage of that conviction. So when you introduce a character like Big Jim Dieter and the first two things he does are sketchy at best and fireable and amoral at worst, how are you going to square that? Like, how do you prepare? And I think some shows would be like, oh, interesting.

• 26:49Andy Greenwald?

  How will I kind of, I wanted to shock with the introduction, but I now must make some sort of sane-washing choice, character-wise, to make it worth it or make us understand it. And with some of the additions to the character, even within this episode, you could maybe think that that's the, those guardrails are being placed.

• 27:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Andy Greenwald?

  Well, he's under a lot of stress. He's a, you know, he's a girl dad, or maybe he had a boy, I don't remember. But point is dad.

• 27:14Andy Greenwald?

  We don't.

• 27:14Chris Ryan?

  You gotta take the bad girl dads with the good girl dads. You know, you can't have Marty Supreme.

• 27:19Andy Greenwald?

  I think I was a boy.

• 27:21Andy Greenwald?

  I'm pretty sure, based on his behavior, he was a boy.

• 27:25Andy Greenwald?

  And you're thinking, are these guardrails for a potential salvation arc? And, uh, no. No, it's not.

• 27:32Chris Ryan?

  Same for Rishi.

• 27:33Andy Greenwald?

  And, well, same for Rishi, I think, but the dissent might be longer because I think Charlie.

• 27:38Chris Ryan?

  Well, it was pretty quick when he jumped off the balcony.

• 27:41Andy Greenwald?

  The ground came up real fast.

• 27:44Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, Charlie Heaton, this is where obviously we're spoiling, already has done the round, or before this episode aired, had done his round of interviews to go on, to go up after.

• 27:52Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 27:52Andy Greenwald?

  And said that he knew he was doing a half-season arc and everything and left it all off the floor, quite literally.

• 27:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:58Andy Greenwald?

  But, um.

• 27:59Chris Ryan?

  But you can see why.

• 28:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 28:00Chris Ryan?

  You know, like, you can see why he would do something like that because, yes, in the first couple of episodes, the first three episodes, he's largely like, you know, staring at a computer screen and, you know, begging for more time on his, on his story deadline. But like, that's, that's why you would, any actor in the world would sign up to do that.

• 28:17Andy Greenwald?

  Especially if you want to change direction from what you've been doing.

• 28:21Chris Ryan?

  I'll say this, as someone who is somewhat of a connoisseur of koki performances in movies and TV, I thought he did. He had like an energy that I don't think I, it wasn't like he was doing Sean Penn.

• 28:34Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 28:34Chris Ryan?

  Or doing Ray Liotta. Like, he had a very specific

• 28:40Chris Ryan?

  energy to him, like when he was doing that. And I thought like, his inability to hear Rishi was actually like the funniest part, not funny, but like, it was like, this is very dead on of this guy's like, I'm ranting and like this other dude talking about why, how he might want to

• 28:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 28:55Chris Ryan?

  kill himself and is never gonna see a son. And Dycker's just like, no, no, no, man, I'm on, I've got like,

• 29:02Andy Greenwald?

  I see the code.

• 29:03Chris Ryan?

  I've got the sheet music, brother. Like, I got it.

• 29:05Andy Greenwald?

  Well, also, there was the, there was the way that anger, confrontation, fighting, disagreeing was part of the rush.

• 29:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:13Andy Greenwald?

  That it was not actually, for him at least, that it didn't seem like there were actual stakes to it. But to your point about like, mitigating everything through ego and through personal experience, I thought that was one of the nicest things about the episode. Nice. Very little about the episode was nice. But in terms of like through lines, that almost every interaction was, there was always an extra element on top of it. So that when Jonah is talking to Sweet Pea, he is, he is on the phone at a strip club. He can't even do either without, he can't enjoy vice or work separate and apart from each other. Everyone is, is basically staring into a private abyss. And it, you know, and their conversations are feedback loops or whatever it is they already want to say.

• 29:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think one of the reasons why the show feels different than other shows is not only because of the music and not only because of the performances, but the performances are not, this is not like a marked base set. I don't think people have to stand still as they do, you know, single, single master for these, for these actors.

• 30:16Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 30:16Chris Ryan?

  And there's a lot of like movement within what feels, when they're sets, they look like the real world. And then often it seems like they are shooting out in the real world.

• 30:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 30:25Chris Ryan?

  And that flat looked like a dingy prefab, not dingy, but a prefab flat on Canary Wharf somewhere. You know what I mean? Like wherever Rishi had sort of washed up.

• 30:33Andy Greenwald?

  I want to go back to the top of the episode before dwelling too, and then maybe we'll return to the end. But when you were talking Talking about like cinematic references and the show feeling its oats more in terms of drawing from things. I don't know if it was subtle, but like when you talked about like coki energy and the guy with the volume, I mean, that is straight out of the Boogie Nights playbook. That's, that's, that's the, the firecrackers.

• 30:54Chris Ryan?

  I have two more things about the end before we go back to the beginning. Can I just bounce two, two things off of you?

• 30:59Andy Greenwald?

  Let's go.

• 30:59Chris Ryan?

  One is that I, I liked the idea of Jim's monologue as the piece he would never get a chance to write.

• 31:09Andy Greenwald?

  That's well said.

• 31:09Chris Ryan?

  I like the idea that he was like tender and siren and, you know, payment processing platforms and the legality of what they're doing in Africa is all just like a kind of, it's like a chimera of like, this is what I really want to say about the world.

• 31:28Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 31:28Chris Ryan?

  And so he gets it out.

• 31:29Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 31:30Chris Ryan?

  And dies. Um, like it's his last will and testament, kind of.

• 31:33Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, when he said, what did he say? We age without getting older, stuck on a wheel of prediction and consumption.

• 31:40Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Uh, I have, I have some other darts he had.

• 31:43Andy Greenwald?

  I, I was both ready to stand up and salute and I was also like, ah Conrad, I hear, I hear your music playing.

• 31:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, it was kind of.

• 31:52Chris Ryan?

  Nothing serious. We're just steam on a mirror. Uh, we built an interface with the world that gives us what we want, but not what we want to want. And, you know, and then goes out, goes out like a champion, you know?

• 32:04Andy Greenwald?

  With, with Ultravox playing, an all time needle drop.

• 32:06Chris Ryan?

  I also wanted to ask you, I, I know that the man who was in the room with them was real.

• 32:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 32:16Chris Ryan?

  But I would like to go back through industry and spot the ghosts.

• 32:21Andy Greenwald?

  That's very interesting. So wait, this is great. I'm not going to take you off of this. But I also felt that it was a brilliant inclusion in the scene because there's also a strong, strong, it's not even a whiff. It's a presence of paranoia.

• 32:34Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 32:35Andy Greenwald?

  This episode, even before the Charlie gets broken out. And the idea that, that these people were, as you said, circling each other, but maybe more than that, that this was not a casual encounter.

• 32:45Chris Ryan?

  Yes, that Rishi has been prying into, to Dycker's life and vice versa.

• 32:49Andy Greenwald?

  And. But like, how high does this thing go? And is Whitney capable of having?

• 32:56Chris Ryan?

  Or is he hasn't been capable?

• 32:57Andy Greenwald?

  Right, of having Dyker killed? Or having it set up to look like he was killed? Is Rishi collateral damage in a good way?

• 33:04Chris Ryan?

  Let me just pull up justice.gov.

• 33:08Andy Greenwald?

  Would you mind killing this bloke?

• 33:11Chris Ryan?

  Whoops!

• 33:11Andy Greenwald?

  But the cleverness of the episode is like, is in the small details. Like, the guy who ends up being their best mate, who has kind of big aging Bezz energy, I felt.

• 33:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:23Andy Greenwald?

  Shout out Happy Mondays. He, his encounter with them is chasing off someone else. Right, to earn their trust, which is actual classic spy craft. Right, like you set up both sides of that.

• 33:34Chris Ryan?

  Oh, to like, engender their trust, yes. I mean, you could argue that Rishi and Dyker are gonna have that night regardless.

• 33:41Andy Greenwald?

  That's the thing, you don't really, they don't really need to be pushed, they're jumping.

• 33:44Chris Ryan?

  It's not literally like, a ghost, it's just spectral figures throughout the series.

• 33:49Andy Greenwald?

  Who else are you thinking of?

• 33:50Chris Ryan?

  Clement, you know, in the first season, who is obviously a real person.

• 33:53Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 33:53Chris Ryan?

  But is almost like, future Rob.

• 33:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 33:56Chris Ryan?

  You know, kind of like, talking him through his class crisis.

• 34:01Andy Greenwald?

  Remind people, I wanted to talk about Clement as well.

• 34:03Chris Ryan?

  Clement is like, one of my favorite inventions of the show, which is the, in the first season, Rob's sort of assigned mentor, who has one client, and has been masking his Scottish heritage, I mean, his identity.

• 34:17Andy Greenwald?

  One other thing too.

• 34:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and his heroin addiction.

• 34:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:21Chris Ryan?

  And who essentially acts as like, Rob's benefactor, posthumously. And, and it's just this lovely, in half of an episode of season one.

• 34:32Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:32Chris Ryan?

  They go on this trip to Amsterdam, I believe?

• 34:34Andy Greenwald?

  I don't remember.

• 34:35Chris Ryan?

  Or Antwerp, I think it's Amsterdam. And go to a tailor and like, have this experience. And it's just this like, incredible, like, if Industry was a series of short stories, it would be one of my favorite ones.

• 34:44Andy Greenwald?

  Absolutely.

• 34:45Chris Ryan?

  You know, we obviously had the commander from earlier this season. So I was like, I kind of want to go back through and think about. People who kind of hovered over these characters and then vanished, whether even Adler, you know what I mean? Like, the idea of these characters kind of...

• 35:00Andy Greenwald?

  Think about the show began. The show began...

• 35:03Chris Ryan?

  With the trainee dying in the bathroom.

• 35:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and it presents him. I don't have his name in front of me because he was brilliant in Station 11, too, the actor. But like, people were being picked off before they even started. And that shadow, I guess, falls emotionally on the characters, even though he's never really mentioned.

• 35:18Chris Ryan?

  Right. Nabon Rizwan, sorry.

• 35:19Andy Greenwald?

  He's fantastic.

• 35:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Frank in Station 11.

• 35:22Andy Greenwald?

  I was thinking a lot about the role Clement played and the lack of Clements going forward. And I think that there's two different ways into a conversation about it in the show, and I want to try to present it in a value-neutral way, because I'm curious your thoughts about it. We've talked a lot so far this season about the lack of familiar settings. We've lost Peer Point, although weirdly, Peer Point is back.

• 35:45Chris Ryan?

  I was gonna ask about this, but yeah.

• 35:47Andy Greenwald?

  The succubus of the company is back haunting these characters. But outside of Eric, they've also lost all middle management. The only... Everyone in this show this season is playing dress-up. No one more so than Yasmin, who is wearing like an almost cartoonish Grace Jones power suit with the shoulders, as she's play-acting.

• 36:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:05Andy Greenwald?

  And it's not a coincidence, it's a sign of, I think, cleverness and intent, that it's as extravagant a period outfit as they were wearing when they were all dressed up for Henry's birthday.

• 36:17Chris Ryan?

  My favorite outfit in this episode is definitely Henry's. Henry's relatable.

• 36:21Andy Greenwald?

  His shirt, open just a little bit?

• 36:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but tucked in, Chelsea boots, and is just kind of like, hey, man.

• 36:27Andy Greenwald?

  Need some more layers.

• 36:27Chris Ryan?

  I know I'm aristocratic, but we're all friends here, you know?

• 36:30Andy Greenwald?

  We all have our mental health struggles.

• 36:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:33Andy Greenwald?

  So basically, this season, the kids are playing dress-up, and the only authority figures that are left for them are dinosaurs, the people who run the newspapers, the people who have held the entrenched power. And I think that there is a critical way in of that, where there are moments this season that I've bumped against where, like, the tender is going to completely revolutionize finance and government and banking, everything in this country, and it's being masterminded by these three dopes, basically, by the end of this episode. And that feels...

• 37:09Andy Greenwald?

  Sometimes I question the reality of that, even though it's in the purpose of drama.

• 37:14Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 37:15Andy Greenwald?

  There are other times when I'm like, oh, this is actually a withering and insightful exploration of the world of a hollowed out middle that exists, where like, we're a gerontocracy politically and no middle. Like, I'm not saying this to big up our pathetic generation, but like, people in our generation have never like, held power in the country because the baby boomers didn't give it up. And then the younger people are like, what the fuck? Let's just go on OnlyFans, I guess, for sirens. That seems to be the extent of it.

• 37:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:48Andy Greenwald?

  So, and in the light of that binary, like, what James's speech is, is quite telling. And there's an emptiness at the heart of this. People are play-acting at responsibility when really, everyone is just, you know, auto-looping their sonar pings into their own screens.

• 38:08Chris Ryan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 38:09Andy Greenwald?

  Do you ever feel, though, a lack of, not that Clement was a great mentor, but in a way, he was a guide, not necessarily all positive. He was like, almost, even when he was alive, he was like a Christmas Carol-type figure.

• 38:21Chris Ryan?

  That's what I, yeah.

• 38:22Andy Greenwald?

  For Rob. Do you feel the lack of any?

• 38:26Chris Ryan?

  I think that there's like, you know, I don't feel an absence. I think what I'm experiencing, watching, you know, this show opens, this episode opens with crisis talks at two different companies.

• 38:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Chris Ryan?

  So, Stern Town, which is essentially, you know, two, three people, four people at this point, with Kenny banking for them, kind of freaking out because Dycker's not published a follow-up yet that exposes these Sunderland, you know, drop sites where people are doing like, you know, whatever they're doing for Tinder.

• 39:02Andy Greenwald?

  They need to tarnish the reputation of Tinder quickly.

• 39:05Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 39:05Andy Greenwald?

  In order to-

• 39:06Chris Ryan?

  To secure their shorts or whatever. And then at Tinder, they're talking about their new app. Now, while I was watching those first two scenes, I was kind of like, really distracted by a thought I had of industry with normal music, you know, like, what would industry feel like if it was just like bump, bump, bump, bump, bump?

• 39:27Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, if it was like Tina Fey's husband's circus-like score. From like 30 Rock or Kimmy Schmidt. Someone could drop that. I'm with you on that.

• 39:37Chris Ryan?

  But so when I was watching it, I was like,

• 39:41Chris Ryan?

  these two companies are quite likely lawless, you know what I mean? Like, we're watching that, but open up Bloomberg. They're all companies.

• 39:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. You do pay for that subscription? Must be nice. That's great. If you can kick me a free article link sometime.

• 39:58Chris Ryan?

  It's really hard being you.

• 40:00Andy Greenwald?

  To the point of, um, music, I do want to say that like, it really absolves all sins because I was more critical of last week's episode, certainly than you were. And then to have this episode begin with like a classic, classic contemporary drama construction of like an around the horn.

• 40:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Andy Greenwald?

  Where we're checking in.

• 40:19Chris Ryan?

  What's going on? How much money do we have? What are we doing?

• 40:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, everybody's a little agitated for reasons that are interlinked. And then the Nathan McCabe, the keys drop. And I was like, let's go, let's go. That, it's really, really just smart asset management.

• 40:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 40:35Andy Greenwald?

  To be like, we are taking some risky positions, but we are still the same company.

• 40:39Chris Ryan?

  But this is, this is why,

• 40:43Chris Ryan?

  what happens is like, in the same way that you're talking about these

• 40:48Chris Ryan?

  experienced veterans moving off the stage, both in terms of like, characters on the show, but in the world of finance, if it's all upstart fucking cowboys with short plays or crypto, and I guess we're going to start sounding like Jim Dycker here in a second, like, then this is what's going to happen. You know, you basically have two rebels like fighting against each other in this show instead of like, an old guard and a new guard. And then only remnants of the old guard are actually at these hollowed out storefronts like Purepoint.

• 41:20Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, which is a front now.

• 41:21Chris Ryan?

  Which is basically like, oh, it has some name recognition. So it's like basically a piece of financial IP that we're resurrecting.

• 41:29Chris Ryan?

  And then at the end of the episode, you know, they basically take a stake in Purepoint to offset the risk of Purepoint taking a stake in them, which is, you know, if you can wrap your head around that, you're kind of like, we're resurrecting. So fucked. Um, did you want to talk a little bit about the um, Love Square?

• 41:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Chris Ryan?

  Developing between Henry, Whitney, Yasmin and Haley, although I would not put love

• 41:52Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 41:52Chris Ryan?

  Central into the square there.

• 41:53Andy Greenwald?

  Let's talk, let's start with the Henry stuff because I think Kit Harington continues to add to his M E F Y C.

• 42:00Chris Ryan?

  He's fucking awesome in this show, man.

• 42:01Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know what he's really, really good at? I mean, many things as we're learning and not, but something that I think he was also good at in Game of Thrones. And I wouldn't say, I mean, he's a, he's a talented actor and you know, you're, you're always honing your craft. But there's a specific thing that I think you can trace back to Game of Thrones that I love seeing here, which is that he is, and I know we keep harping on this. In the, you know, he, he is not a particularly tall man. However, physically, he is elite at menacing people who are even on screen, clearly bigger than him.

• 42:32Chris Ryan?

  Yep.

• 42:33Andy Greenwald?

  It's like, it's like, it's like Allen Iverson in the paint, basically. He's just like, he, he understands that the way to be bigger and to intimidate people. Whether it's, whether it's Whitney, I think in one scene or, or anyone else, is he doesn't come over the top like he is bigger. He goes low like a wrestler about to take them down.

• 42:49Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 42:50Andy Greenwald?

  And it is intimidating.

• 42:51Chris Ryan?

  I will.

• 42:52Andy Greenwald?

  It's, it's a physical performance, not just a clever verbal performance.

• 42:56Chris Ryan?

  I can't imagine having to uh, act and give emotional intent to the dialogue that, that Mickey and Conrad write for this show. And how it's so acrobatic and it's so dense. So it's really on the performer to imbue it with the emotional intent of each moment.

• 43:18Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:18Chris Ryan?

  He's the, he might be the best at it. You can see like pain in his eyes as he says certain things that, cause he's not getting his way about how he wants something presented. Like he's the one where you're watching and you're like, if I don't, even if I don't understand the concept of what he's saying, or like the real like interaction between like, if we take a stake in them and they take a stake in this, I can see, I understand emotionally what he wants because of the way he projects it. And honestly, you're right. He was like that in Game of Thrones. He was able to, you know, even if it was dense fantasy ideas, like communicate a very. Clear emotional kind of reality to the to the audience. It's not, it's like, kind of like watching, you know, you can watch tons of people do Shakespeare

• 44:01Chris Ryan?

  and then you watch Emma Thompson do Shakespeare and you're like, oh, like, I kind of understand Shakespeare now.

• 44:05Andy Greenwald?

  It's also a much more complicated journey because I think broad, broad, broad strokes, the journey of Jon Snow is he's nothing, he's the bastard, he's a pawn of history to having agency in it. And what's fascinating about this performance is it's someone who is incredibly privileged, who's used to having things his way in a certain way and has no issues indulging himself in almost any direction. And yet you see him repeatedly, almost like buck against the handcuffs that he suddenly finds himself in. Most of them are emotional psychosexual handcuffs. Like when he says to Yasmin, "You're meant to talk me down. You're doing this wrong. This is not right. I'm afraid of you."

• 44:39Chris Ryan?

  He traps her, you know? He's like, "Give me a lorazepam." And she's like, "I can try and find one." He's like, "God damn it."

• 44:45Andy Greenwald?

  You did it wrong. And what was interesting, and again, I think the show has been very smart about, is it too much to keep making these financial analogies, keep backstopping its position?

• 44:57Chris Ryan?

  I mean, we may not even know what that means.

• 44:59Andy Greenwald?

  I have no idea what that means. I'm just going to try it. Because you could watch the season up to this episode and you could say, "I understand why Henry is being made the CEO of this company for the purposes of an eight-episode season. Beyond that, I'm not entirely clear on it. I'm not entirely sold on it." Then you see the way Whitney looks at him and puts his hand on him and the talk about, like, building on the conversation from, I believe, the previous episode where he talked about second acts and where they are possible and where they are not. And the way he talks about, much like Yasmin does, pouring his hopes and dreams for what Henry Muck could be into the very flawed vessel known as Henry Muck, you start to

• 45:42Andy Greenwald?

  understand it on multiple levels, not just on a plot contrivance level, which is really helpful.

• 45:46Chris Ryan?

  Well, in the same way that they're using PeerPoint, is it PeerPoint powered by Tinder or Tender powered by PeerPoint? I can't remember.

• 45:53Andy Greenwald?

  I think by the end, Tender has the upper hand.

• 45:56Chris Ryan?

  It's almost like a guy like Henry is better than nothing. You know, it's like you basically have some name recognition, you have some aristocracy or, you know, he's a landed gentry. So you're building up from that and it's better, even if he has failed publicly with Lumi and had mental health and drug problems in the public, you're still...

• 46:19Chris Ryan?

  You know, it's like, hey, we'll just make a, we'll go back into the 1980s and just grab this title because it has a higher baseline name recognition than anything else. So I really like the idea that all these people have sort of convinced him that this is King Arthur. You know?

• 46:34Andy Greenwald?

  And that he-

• 46:34Chris Ryan?

  For giving a fucking speech.

• 46:36Andy Greenwald?

  No, but he has his Saint Swithin's Day speech. He goes off book and he moves people in an unmovable room.

• 46:42Chris Ryan?

  Then he blows right by his beautiful wife.

• 46:45Andy Greenwald?

  That was awkward. But, but his beautiful wife is, what's the word? Maybe a monster?

• 46:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Yes, reminiscent of the, the Succession's sequence with Shiv talking a sexual abuse whistleblower out of coming forward. Yaz gets Haley, played by Karen Shipka, promoted at, at Tender as a kind of reward for participating in a threesome with her and Henry slash-

• 47:17Andy Greenwald?

  Also, potentially another, she's someone on her side. I mean, she, she is, I mean, they, it's intentional. She is completely out of place.

• 47:26Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 47:26Andy Greenwald?

  And in, you know, in front of her, out in front of her skis.

• 47:29Chris Ryan?

  I think she, she's presenting it to Haley as like, I, I recognize like great talent in you professionally. And Haley's like, let's be honest, like about what that was.

• 47:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 47:38Chris Ryan?

  And now I have something on you as well.

• 47:39Andy Greenwald?

  That's the arc of the episode, yes. Did you feel, we're talking about how like, one of the, one of the smart things that showrunners can do is have certain people on an innings count. You know, you could, the James Dyker story served a purpose and they gave Charlie Heaton enough real estate to make a character, have opportunities, and then also to have it surprise. Were you surprised that the Haley character is going in this direction or is having the prominence that she is thus far? Not saying that she couldn't be gone after next week. I mean, that's part of the fun of watching the show now.

• 48:16Chris Ryan?

  I also think that like the, the characters can change week to week. And I'm, I didn't see scenes from next week. And we should mention that both industry and Night of the Seven Kingdoms are going up on Friday this, this week because of the Super Bowl.

• 48:30Chris Ryan?

  I don't know how she is going to react to the news that Dycker has died, or that, you know, like, like, I don't know how she's going to feel next week. She's a, she's a young person, you know, like, I think there is a liveliness.

• 48:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 48:43Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, this is now not like, she's not Lena Headey in Game of Thrones. She's a person who's like, maybe got more to her than what Yasmin thought, but I don't know that she's like soulless or anything like that.

• 48:57Andy Greenwald?

  I'm curious where, it's a very intentional choice. At this, like, having, um, Ken Lung and Mahala be in the show is credible for the show. I don't know how much conversation, although there may have been some, there was at the genesis about the importance of them being American, you know, in terms of the story.

• 49:16Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 49:16Andy Greenwald?

  As opposed to, we need some Americans in here because it's going to be an international show. At this point in season four, bringing in these American characters is more significant, and there was some thought to it, as evidenced by that second acts in American life or English life thing. So I'm very curious what, what is going to be said about that. You know, not just because, you know, as an American who's been in England recently.

• 49:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:38Andy Greenwald?

  As are you. I mean, I don't want to step on your experience as well.

• 49:42Chris Ryan?

  Thanks, man.

• 49:42Andy Greenwald?

  I want to hold some space for it. I will say the only time that I really was out on this week's episode was when Calabasas said that I don't rate that at all.

• 49:50Chris Ryan?

  But if she's been in England for five years, maybe she's started picking up some slang.

• 49:54Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I say when I accept my pint of NA.

• 49:57Chris Ryan?

  Cheers.

• 49:57Andy Greenwald?

  Cheers.

• 49:59Chris Ryan?

  That was really it. That was all I had for, for industry this week. Do you have anything else?

• 50:03Andy Greenwald?

  The Rishi stuff was, uh, excellent. I think Sigur Rádi is giving just a great performance. I think it is also another example of playing with timing and expectation. Because last week we were talking about how much more, this is probably the right way to phrase it, rope the character had, and it, and how the repercussions will be doled out, and clearly we were expecting more repercussions than Sweet Pea being like, get this guy away from me.

• 50:28Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 50:28Andy Greenwald?

  That came this week in the form of, uh, oh, that was the other screen mitigating experience, when he's getting roadhead from his underage drug dealing.

• 50:36Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.

• 50:36Andy Greenwald?

  But again, it's all on a screen.

• 50:39Andy Greenwald?

  We have that scene, we see how far he's fallen in a way, although, you know, probably someone in the New York Review of Books is just like, Rishi's job remains the same across these seasons.

• 50:48Chris Ryan?

  Does New York Review of Books do industry recaps?

• 50:50Andy Greenwald?

  I, no, but you know, I renewed my subscription when they had the big takeout on Effengers. So I feel like now they are, we're really setting the agenda for the elite publications in this country.

• 50:59Chris Ryan?

  For Bloomberg and the New York Review of Books.

• 51:01Andy Greenwald?

  Finally, our generation is taking power when it matters. The scene with his surprisingly religious ex-mother-in-law with his son there was a devastating scene. But what's interesting and compelling about the show is the way that they do switch up the tempo. So with those scenes coming in short order and then him showing up, you know, clearly intentionally with James, I thought, ah, I see. So the Rishi story is now going to be on-boarded, like mainstreamed into Stern Town and everything.

• 51:35Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 51:35Andy Greenwald?

  And this is just the beginning of it, and I'm fine with it, it's great. I'm ready for him to come back and be the, you know, dirty investigator or whatever it is that he's going to be doing. And then he throws himself off of a balcony, which was surprising. Not that he did it, that episode was clearly headed that way, but then in terms of, they keep putting, they keep painting him into story corners. And it's risky and it's interesting. And I don't, I'm purely curious to see where it goes because I, that outcome for him is not unexpected, but it was unexpected at the end of episode four.

• 52:07Chris Ryan?

  It was, and it was not unexpected, given the, the way that the, um, the way that he had kept running into basically dead ends. Cul-de-sacs, professional rehabilitation, personal rehabilitation. You know, and then he finds himself, like the guys that, and the people that he is going to be like leveling out with are like coked out people at afters. You know what I mean? And that he's never really going to get a license to do what he did before. He's essentially a drug dealing, uh, father of a child that he will never be allowed to see alone again.

• 52:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. And his name is being changed.

• 52:44Chris Ryan?

  And people are frequently calling him murderer, or at least publicly calling him a murderer.

• 52:47Andy Greenwald?

  And he, and he's infamous in a way that I don't think I understood.

• 52:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 52:50Andy Greenwald?

  Um, yeah. Coming off of last season. That it would be, that people would know about it. Yeah, we're on a ghost ship. I thought that was, I thought that was industry at its best. And I also just, you know, obviously, we, we know the guys who make it. We've talked to them many times. And I am always looking for convergence between, you know, the meta story of things and, and the idea of like the middle managers being gone and only dealing with the oligarchs while you try to make something creative that lasts is relevant. I just thought that that speech was so nicely twinned with the, um, the feature that The New Yorker ran about them, which is, uh, back in December. And, uh, it, it's a great story. They're, they leave it, they explain everything behind the scenes.

• 53:33Andy Greenwald?

  But the fact that it ends with Mickey going home to be with his family, the story, and Conrad talking about why people are fucking miserable while waiting for his friend who works at Goldman to arrive. I'm like, everything is copied, but it is a, you can't watch this show.

• 53:49Chris Ryan?

  It feels personal.

• 53:50Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I'm saying. That, that is always the secret sauce to almost anything that, that we respond to artistically and not just us people. And I love that. Like, the show is, um, there's a seriousness of purpose to the show that earns it its stripes. Like, there are moments, even the season, where I'm like, is it veering into, I said this last week, the more sensationalist.

• 54:11Chris Ryan?

  Chaotic, chaotic elements, yeah.

• 54:13Andy Greenwald?

  That get headlines or get, go viral or, you know, or, but it, it knows what it's doing. And there's purpose in the soullessness, and it's attempting to comment on that in a way that I find pretty compelling.

• 54:25Chris Ryan?

  I think that on a week to week basis, there's like just lots of giftable moments and, and kind of, there's almost like probably built in viral quality to it. I wouldn't say that that's something that they're thinking about when they're writing, but it just feels that way when it's like, oh, you know, Kiran Shipkant throwing up her mini dress is really gonna like blow people's minds. But when you look at like the four episodes together, when the themes of this series and seasons start to emerge, and when you kind of think about all the, uh, flourishes that happen as writers, as directors, it's really. This is why we spend so much time talking about it. Let's spend a little bit of time talking about Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I talked about this with Mal and Joe.

• 55:07Chris Ryan?

  A lot of what we talked about, actually, at the top of that episode, and I wanted to get your thoughts on it, was the twist and the idea of, was it a twist? Was it a thrill for you as somebody who obviously didn't read the books? But I don't know how much you read about the characters going into it. So spoilers for this third episode of Night of the Seven Kingdoms. But what did you think of the reveal at the end that Egg is in fact Aegon Targaryen?

• 55:34Andy Greenwald?

  I was thrilled.

• 55:36Chris Ryan?

  Did you know it?

• 55:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 55:38Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 55:39Andy Greenwald?

  I still don't really know what that fully means. And I was going to ask you to help talk me through some twisted Targaryen history.

• 55:45Chris Ryan?

  Just listen to that fortune teller.

• 55:47Andy Greenwald?

  But yeah, exactly. But she's good at her job. She should definitely get a raise.

• 55:55Andy Greenwald?

  So much of, I say this constantly for almost every major show we talk about for the many years we've been doing this podcast. But much like play calling in the NFL, so much of what makes showrunners elite is this innate sense of tempo and timing and how to play, you know, when to call certain plays. Let's put it that way.

• 56:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:17Andy Greenwald?

  And the reason why I know.

• 56:19Chris Ryan?

  I wish there was like a heat map for like what you mentioned. And it's definitely offensive coordinating and the effengers are just like fucking redder than the sun.

• 56:29Andy Greenwald?

  This podcast is personal, much like industry.

• 56:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:33Andy Greenwald?

  We have to bring our whole selves to it.

• 56:35Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 56:37Andy Greenwald?

  No, but jokes aside, I was aware of that reveal and we made some passing jokes last week about how they were kind of laying a little bit thick with the edit. But one of the fun things about watching the show regardless, well, the main fun thing about watching the show regardless is that this show is very fun to watch and that's enough. The second fun thing was knowing what I know, how will they choose to share this information? And this episode through the first half was, I mean, there was jousting, but it was relatively slower and more contemplative and gave me the thought that the reveal was coming at the end of the season. That it was going to be a long throat clear before we get there.

• 57:20Andy Greenwald?

  What they did that I love, and again, this is probably, if not, you can tell me probably because of your experience with with Joe and Mal, like, um, from the text, or not, like, a huge creative leap on the part of Ira Parker. Making the circumstance in which it's revealed the most dramatically fraught and put it at the exact midpoint of the season is just...

• 57:42Chris Ryan?

  That is, that is as it is in the novella, but I thought that whole sequence was beautifully staged.

• 57:49Andy Greenwald?

  It was so good, and it was, as my friend Martha says, just good telly, because you see, we've watched, it plays on so many things, our expectations, our spoiler, potentially having been spoiled or not, our surprise, but also, in a very subtle and clever way, it plays on our, many of ours, decade-plus of watching Game of Thrones, where we know if you punch a prince in the face, it's not gonna go great. And there's only maybe one thing that can save you, and so they, they pulled it out of the hat at the right moment.

• 58:17Chris Ryan?

  I was thinking about this, because these guys, these two characters, the main characters are obviously teaching each other so much. Both, you know, Egg obviously has this kind of insight into the mechanics of, when he come, when Dunk comes back and is like, this guy says that he was a lowly crabber, and he's like, no, he was actually the son of the guy who ran all crabbing, you know? Dunk is teaching Egg about being kind and, and stepping up for people who need help. It is a lone wolf and cub type relationship, and sometimes I think I've kind of resented those because plot armor dictates that the cub can't really get hurt, you know, and

• 58:54Andy Greenwald?

  Or, in the case of Mando, the cub can't even talk.

• 58:57Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 58:58Andy Greenwald?

  This cub...

• 58:59Chris Ryan?

  But when you put that in the Game of Thrones world, I wasn't like, this dude's gonna get curb stomped, but I wasn't not like that. I wasn't certain, you know? I was like, this is gonna be a tough scene if this dude is acting with no teeth for the rest of this series.

• 59:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 59:13Chris Ryan?

  But I thought...

• 59:15Andy Greenwald?

  Dentistry in Westeros.

• 59:17Chris Ryan?

  I thought that the way that they did that whole sequence, I mean, first of all, I'm a really, I just, I've said this a lot, I think Finn Bennett is like, really good actor and also like, an ace piece of shit on this show.

• 59:28Andy Greenwald?

  Huge Cobra Kai energy to it as well, which I loved. Um, super, super Johnny. Um, yeah, the whole thing was really well staged, Sarah Dina Smith, who's a really talented director.

• 59:40Chris Ryan?

  The low angle shot of like Egg, kind of with the classical music, the surging music, you know?

• 59:45Andy Greenwald?

  I thought it was, I thought it was excellent. And again, like the 30 minutes, you're enjoying it. And then to land and leave us on a place that flips the entire series was really,

• 59:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 59:56Andy Greenwald?

  really expertly done.

• 59:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, because I think if you're not reading the books, or if you're not really reading any spoilers or anything like that, you're like, oh, right, this is probably gonna build up like a sports movie.

• 1:00:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Chris Ryan?

  And then Dunk is gonna learn all these lessons from the characters around him and win. Or come in second, you know what I mean? And, and it's, yeah, it's different.

• 1:00:15Andy Greenwald?

  Can I ask you a real, um, House of Our question?

• 1:00:18Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:00:20Andy Greenwald?

  Is anyone in Westeros, like, white blonde, other than Targaryens, or bastards of Targaryens? Is the hair that much of a giveaway? I don't remember one way or another.

• 1:00:29Chris Ryan?

  Uh, yes, I think that, I think that that is their signature thing from piles of incest.

• 1:00:34Andy Greenwald?

  Piles? Evocative.

• 1:00:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, those two, they, I think now what has happened over the years is that the Targaryens, at this point,

• 1:00:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Chris Ryan?

  have started marrying other families elsewhere to, for political purposes, like.

• 1:00:48Andy Greenwald?

  To retain power because they no longer have dragons.

• 1:00:50Chris Ryan?

  Lord doesn't have blonde hair, uh,

• 1:00:53Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 1:00:53Chris Ryan?

  etc.

• 1:00:54Andy Greenwald?

  But that, but that was because, that was in a, that's because as you educated me last week, this is the era.

• 1:01:00Chris Ryan?

  No dragons.

• 1:01:01Andy Greenwald?

  No dragons, but still Targaryen rule. Before things started really.

• 1:01:04Chris Ryan?

  Though I guess Arian thinks he is a dragon.

• 1:01:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, his name is Arian.

• 1:01:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Andy Greenwald?

  And he's wants, he wants to rule a nation.

• 1:01:10Chris Ryan?

  He is one of five people to see Melania this weekend.

• 1:01:13Andy Greenwald?

  That's what I was gonna say, he would. He's met his moment. A couple other details about the about the episode. Before we get into the plot, just another like sort of meta observation, like the the the two things that you're not supposed to do in show business, if you want to have a successful or a long career, is work with children or animals. And the entire first section of this episode is a young boy yelling at a horse, who is just nodding along and giving you, honestly.

• 1:01:38Chris Ryan?

  Good performance.

• 1:01:39Andy Greenwald?

  Really good performance.

• 1:01:40Chris Ryan?

  Good horse performance by Thunder.

• 1:01:41Andy Greenwald?

  Good horse performance. So is there anything that these guys can't do? Very remarkable.

• 1:01:48Andy Greenwald?

  I wanted to shout out Dan Roemer.

• 1:01:50Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, he's jamming.

• 1:01:51Andy Greenwald?

  Who's jamming. He's a great, great composer, Station Eleven, many other things.

• 1:01:55Chris Ryan?

  Did you teach your kids the Alice song after you watched this episode?

• 1:01:59Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't. I didn't. No, they're luckily, they're they're now more down like Gilmore Girls at the moment. Which is funny, because Gilmore Girls is just, this is not a spoiler, really rife with early 2000s pop culture references.

• 1:02:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:12Andy Greenwald?

  Children are at sea, but guess who's there to pick them up in the great big boats of trivia knowledge?

• 1:02:18Chris Ryan?

  Mr. Phantom Planet.

• 1:02:19Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. But yeah, he like the fiddle in the opening of this episode, he's doing really fun, creative work. That again, is like a subtle indication of how the show is not Game of Thrones.

• 1:02:31Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 1:02:31Andy Greenwald?

  The music is the music is of a world, but they are being creative and creating a different atmosphere with it. It's just very thoughtfully done.

• 1:02:41Andy Greenwald?

  A lot of shitting on the show.

• 1:02:42Chris Ryan?

  A lot of crapping, a lot of a lot of ribald jokes, but I mean, like Game of Thrones itself. And they're tossing kids out of windows and brothers and sisters having sex, you know, it's like it's it's a pretty racy world.

• 1:02:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:55Chris Ryan?

  As as is the one we live in, apparently.

• 1:02:57Andy Greenwald?

  Apparently, as as we've learned.

• 1:03:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I I guess the only other.

• 1:03:02Chris Ryan?

  It's 30 minute show, so it's like it's kind of like they eat bacon, egg and cheese sandwiches and hang out.

• 1:03:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but I had a question about that, too.

• 1:03:08Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:03:09Andy Greenwald?

  I love, you know, we spent a decade.

• 1:03:12Chris Ryan?

  Joe had a problem with the bread to protein ratio.

• 1:03:15Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, yeah, I well, she's first of all, she's right. But second, we spent 10 years covering Game of Thrones, and all I wanted to do was just linger in the spice markets of Essos. I really wanted a little more like a hot pie, like.

• 1:03:26Chris Ryan?

  So you said.

• 1:03:27Andy Greenwald?

  Bring him back.

• 1:03:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:28Andy Greenwald?

  You know.

• 1:03:30Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think they have salt? They have salted, all the salt that I know that they have goes on the beef in order to have a single thing to eat most days. But then when they were cooking those eggs, like in the bread, like I think it just needs a little, do you think they're seasoning it?

• 1:03:46Chris Ryan?

  I don't know, uh, I doubt it. I don't know like what that protein, like what that meat was. I assume like Westerosi ham.

• 1:03:55Andy Greenwald?

  It reminded me a lot of what I was, an article I read this weekend about Dan Orlovsky's diet.

• 1:04:00Chris Ryan?

  It's just chicken tenders, isn't it?

• 1:04:01Andy Greenwald?

  It's just, it's, it's just chicken tenders and no fruit flavored anything other than fruit.

• 1:04:07Chris Ryan?

  That's, I mean, he, he looks great.

• 1:04:09Andy Greenwald?

  I know, he looks great. And also maybe his life's simpler, you know? Like, I don't think he had to line up.

• 1:04:13Chris Ryan?

  To never have to think about what you want to eat. I mean, except when you go to a rice restaurant and you're like, can you make me chicken tenders?

• 1:04:19Andy Greenwald?

  He goes to a steakhouse. Every restaurant, a lot of restaurants have kids menus. I think that's fine. And I don't think he was worried about, I don't think he had FOMO when he saw the pickled nasturtium flowers on the Noma curage bagels pop up. You know what I mean? I think he was like, I'm good.

• 1:04:32Chris Ryan?

  What a deep crap. You dug that one out. That was great.

• 1:04:36Andy Greenwald?

  I made it. I don't think that's what it was. But it probably was.

• 1:04:39Chris Ryan?

  So the new episodes of these shows will be going up Friday. I don't think you and I are going to be doing a special emergency episode to cover them on Friday. We'll cover them on Monday after the Super Bowl. But we'll be back on Thursday to discuss the pit and I might ask you to check out Steel.

• 1:04:55Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I've been hearing, hearing talk about this.

• 1:04:57Chris Ryan?

  It was pretty good. I watched, I watched the first two episodes and I'm like, this is kind of what I want from TV.

• 1:05:03Andy Greenwald?

  What is it?

• 1:05:03Chris Ryan?

  It's Sophie Turner, uh, plays a woman working at, uh, like an investment bank that gets robbed, um, in a very spectacular way.

• 1:05:14Andy Greenwald?

  That's fun.

• 1:05:15Chris Ryan?

  Opening episode is a really great heist. Um, and then it, there's a sort of spiraling out. Conspiracy of, of, of sort of bad guys and good guys in it. It, it brings in the government, it brings in cops, it brings in, but she's sort of this central like Hitchcockian in over her head figure in the whole thing.

• 1:05:33Andy Greenwald?

  And what, what services?

• 1:05:34Chris Ryan?

  It's on Amazon Prime, which I think's been doing some great programming recently.

• 1:05:37Andy Greenwald?

  Theatrical and at home.

• 1:05:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:41Andy Greenwald?

  We should tell the people, I, I think this is smart by you. I mean, you are generally, uh, you know, you're, you're pretty private about your portfolio and your holdings. But I do believe you were well positioned in Sophie Turner's stock. I feel like you bought early and you held on.

• 1:05:56Chris Ryan?

  You know what it was? I didn't really, I just thought she was cool. She was fine. That's to be clear.

• 1:06:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Chris Ryan?

  Her reviewing sausages on Instagram, which she only did briefly, but she discussed on The Dish with Angela Hartnett, the chef. She has a show on, in England, a podcast, but it's basically a TV show, uh, or they all, um, where Nick Grimshaw and Angela Hartnett, like they prepare a meal as sort of requested by a celebrity and then they interview them while they're eating. It's quite charming. Sophie Turner is hilarious on it. Like she's just seems like a great hang.

• 1:06:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Chris Ryan?

  She does, she is super English in that she's just like, I like a bolognese and otherwise just like.

• 1:06:39Andy Greenwald?

  A spag bol?

• 1:06:39Chris Ryan?

  A spag bol and a curry.

• 1:06:42Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, that's all right.

• 1:06:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:43Andy Greenwald?

  I rate that.

• 1:06:44Chris Ryan?

  That's her Dan Orlovsky menu.

• 1:06:45Andy Greenwald?

  I just think, I, I just, I am, I'm genuinely like, I think it's impressive when you commit and then you hold your position. You don't get waived.

• 1:06:54Chris Ryan?

  I mean, I don't know, I don't really know much about her other than like, I enjoyed her in this show and.

• 1:07:00Andy Greenwald?

  And you're in Tomb Raider.

• 1:07:02Chris Ryan?

  And Tomb Raider, yeah. Obviously Lara Croft's a huge character for me.

• 1:07:05Andy Greenwald?

  Always has been.

• 1:07:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:07Andy Greenwald?

  Back to the original consoles that she was on, right? You were like, finally.

• 1:07:11Chris Ryan?

  I've never played Tomb Raider.

• 1:07:12Andy Greenwald?

  My representation of both womanhood and archaeology.

• 1:07:15Chris Ryan?

  I was too busy with Max Payne, my brother.

• 1:07:19Andy Greenwald?

  You play like, oh, right, Max, that was, that was your solo journey when you were just like, we didn't like call each other then. We didn't have cell phones. But the next day at the bar, you'd be like, I was in the dark and a baby was crying.

• 1:07:29Chris Ryan?

  That was the closest I've ever come to like the McConaughey smoking and True Detective meme, because I was actually smoking, looking for the sounds of a baby in a dark room in Max's.

• 1:07:39Andy Greenwald?

  And did Rishi stay with you the whole time?

• 1:07:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but he may not have been there. You know what I mean? Who knows?

• 1:07:43Andy Greenwald?

  We should have a name for this part at the end of the podcast where we just talk about what we want to talk about.

• 1:07:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, we, we could call it the watch after dark if you want.

• 1:07:50Andy Greenwald?

  Freestyle five. I don't know. Like, I, I picked up, I picked up my older daughter from a sleepover and, and I was asking, you know, what'd you guys do? Did you have a good, she was like, we had the best time, you know, we watched.

• 1:08:00Chris Ryan?

  Played Max's pain.

• 1:08:02Andy Greenwald?

  Close. She was like, she's talking about her friend being like further along in Animal Crossing for Nintendo Switch. And she was just like, I gotta get, I gotta, I gotta spend more time playing video games. And I was like, you are my child. And then she was like, oh, and we also played this other game that her friend is really into. And she said the name of it, which escapes me. And she's like, let me tell you about it. And I was like, great. This is, we're alone in the car. We got 11 minutes before you go pick up your sister. And she's like, so you play this woman who goes back to her hometown and, and I'm just sort of half listening. So I was like trying to check the, make sure I was going the right way. And, and she's like, and then the, the family, your extended family who live in the house, well, the baby falls off a cliff and you play as the baby going off the cliff. And then the next thing you know, you wake up and then you're playing the mom who's reacting to the baby who went off the cliff.

• 1:08:44Andy Greenwald?

  And then she goes into a closet and she dies in there and you play it while she dies. And then I slowly start to turn to her and I'm like, what is the tenor of this conversation? Because I began the conversation being like, cool, it sounds really creative.

• 1:08:56Chris Ryan?

  But what was the game?

• 1:08:57Andy Greenwald?

  It's some like, because here's the thing.

• 1:08:59Chris Ryan?

  Because Phoebe plays, my wife plays games where it's like you go, you are solving mysteries inside of a house. Kind of like there's a few independent ones that are really cool.

• 1:09:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Chris Ryan?

  What was it? One called like Gone Home or something like that? But what was this one called? You don't know?

• 1:09:14Andy Greenwald?

  I'm, I'm Googling, oh, I found it. It's called What Remains of Edith Finch.

• 1:09:20Chris Ryan?

  And this is you Google this by being like through a baby off a cliff video game?

• 1:09:23Andy Greenwald?

  Nintendo game Edith Dead Family.

• 1:09:26Chris Ryan?

  What's it rated?

• 1:09:27Andy Greenwald?

  I'm the king of Google, by the way. That was elite.

• 1:09:32Andy Greenwald?

  What is it rated?

• 1:09:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Andy Greenwald?

  Are you concerned about your morals or morals of my child?

• 1:09:38Chris Ryan?

  I'm just wondering how they got access to it. Or like if you have to like, was it in the just a regular Nintendo Stream Store or whatever?

• 1:09:45Andy Greenwald?

  Stream Store. It's made by Annapurna. Shout out the, uh, the Ellisis. They got their finger in every pie. It's rated teen for blood, drug references, language and violence. So.

• 1:09:56Chris Ryan?

  Well, it sounds like she's, she's got stronger, made a stronger stuff than you.

• 1:10:00Andy Greenwald?

  I just can't.

• 1:10:01Chris Ryan?

  Maybe I can start programming some of her movie nights.

• 1:10:03Andy Greenwald?

  I think honestly you should, but second.

• 1:10:06Chris Ryan?

  Ever seen Green Room? Like.

• 1:10:07Andy Greenwald?

  Ever seen, and I'm like, ever seen Greenberg? Like do a double feature. The, the other thing, this is from my parent corner that I want to run by you that really blew my mind. And I know for people who have older kids or people who maybe are parenting better, they may be aware of this already. But my younger child was like looking at YouTube, which is already a slippery slope. And I realized that every video that she watches has a like joking interviewing the cast of Stranger Things component. But it's generally then a split screen of someone playing Roblox, like turning into squirrels and walking into walls.

• 1:10:39Chris Ryan?

  Wait, so like.

• 1:10:40Andy Greenwald?

  And I was like, so are they commenting on each other? And she's like, no, it's just something different to look at while I listen.

• 1:10:46Chris Ryan?

  Listen to the Stranger Things?

• 1:10:47Andy Greenwald?

  Like both, they are now, like future generations are going to have wonky eyes because most of their YouTube content is, is, we're so doomed.

• 1:10:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:56Andy Greenwald?

  That said, maybe on Netflix, we could, they could, they could run the rewatchables on half the screen, press box on the other half of the screen.

• 1:11:03Chris Ryan?

  How often though, like for instance, when you're doing something or watching something or having conversations with your daughters about their video game content? Are you also looking at Gamecast?

• 1:11:14Andy Greenwald?

  Um, you really know how to hurt a guy. I thought you meant looking at a beautiful new edition from the New York Review of Books. Different than the newspaper, of course, publication. How often am I looking at Gamecast?

• 1:11:27Chris Ryan?

  Well, how often are you second screening your life?

• 1:11:30Andy Greenwald?

  To the degree to which I no longer remember anything, as evidenced by like, the in memoriam segment of the Grammys last night, where I was like, oh damn, about people who left us like six weeks ago.

• 1:11:42Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:11:42Andy Greenwald?

  I would say I'm probably doing it to a worrying degree.

• 1:11:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:45Andy Greenwald?

  You check out any Grammys?

• 1:11:47Chris Ryan?

  No, couldn't care less.

• 1:11:49Andy Greenwald?

  That's not for you.

• 1:11:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:50Andy Greenwald?

  It was amazing that the best new artist category is just all TikTok.

• 1:11:54Chris Ryan?

  Turnstile one, I saw that.

• 1:11:55Andy Greenwald?

  Not best new artist.

• 1:11:56Chris Ryan?

  Rock album, right?

• 1:11:58Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but they don't show those during the broadcast.

• 1:12:00Chris Ryan?

  That's, that's great. Why would you?

• 1:12:02Andy Greenwald?

  That's because all the wheelheads are in Boston.

• 1:12:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Watch fucking Angel Dust.

• 1:12:08Andy Greenwald?

  Wow, this, Kai, what's the oldest sounding segment we've ever done on this podcast?

• 1:12:14Chris Ryan?

  This is pretty, we're fucking cutting edge. We're talking about indie gaming.

• 1:12:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but we're talking about it.

• 1:12:18Chris Ryan?

  Post hardcore music.

• 1:12:19Andy Greenwald?

  We're talking about it from perspective, I'm sorry, I'm talking about it from a perspective of what are they doing? What is this poison entering my kids? Not that it's not a beautiful game, but I'm like, I don't.

• 1:12:27Chris Ryan?

  In three years, you'd probably be like, I'd play that with you. You're just not ready for her to grow up yet.

• 1:12:32Andy Greenwald?

  That's, that's beautiful. Wow. Damn, this hit me in the heart.

• 1:12:37Chris Ryan?

  I'm just saying, but you could.

• 1:12:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:39Chris Ryan?

  Go full Simmons.

• 1:12:41Andy Greenwald?

  Listen.

• 1:12:41Chris Ryan?

  And be like, if you're into that, let's watch Poltergeist. Let's watch Halloween.

• 1:12:46Andy Greenwald?

  But I don't want to watch this. But, but that said, this is also the same child who, you know, first of all, they're gonna get into what they're gonna get into, as we are evidence of, and it works out, you know.

• 1:12:56Chris Ryan?

  As Jim Dieter explained.

• 1:12:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we're all in a go ship.

• 1:13:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Andy Greenwald?

  Might as well have some fun.

• 1:13:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:02Andy Greenwald?

  It was a very memorable hike, which is something, you know, we do here in California for those not here. And like, like on a holiday and my daughter was like, I finished, I finished the book series that I've been reading. I loved it. And I was like, oh, tell me about it. And she's like, well, it's called The Hunger Games. And I was like, cool. And then she went on to tell me, like, I kind of knew the talking points, but I didn't know the detail to which every person is savagely killed in the book. And I think she was eight.

• 1:13:28Andy Greenwald?

  She refers to the last Harry Potter book as the one where 54 people die?

• 1:13:32Chris Ryan?

  Did you not experience death as a child, like in terms of like what you read? Didn't you read comic books? Like Genosha happened, right?

• 1:13:40Andy Greenwald?

  Look at you. Look at you. This is your fucking secret.

• 1:13:45Chris Ryan?

  It's not a secret. You want to talk it out? I'm almost done.

• 1:13:49Andy Greenwald?

  You, but yeah, but you play-

• 1:13:50Chris Ryan?

  House and powers, man.

• 1:13:51Andy Greenwald?

  You play the comic book and video game stuff very artfully.

• 1:13:55Chris Ryan?

  Look, man, honestly, after reading Epstein emails for most of the weekend, I might just go back to Red Dead Redemption and reading X-Men.

• 1:14:02Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's a, I think it's a better choice tapping out. No, I, I am with you in the sense that I actually don't feel they're gonna experience culture and it's within limits. It's okay.

• 1:14:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:14Andy Greenwald?

  And they seem fine.

• 1:14:17Chris Ryan?

  I'm trying to think if I have anything like equally amusing to share with you. Just like life observations.

• 1:14:24Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 1:14:24Chris Ryan?

  I'm getting, I'm getting pretty frustrated with dog walkers in Los Angeles.

• 1:14:29Andy Greenwald?

  Whoa.

• 1:14:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I feel like we really like, like there's just such like a, we've just hit such a huge problem with like just the volume. Like every person has a dog now, it seems like, and they all basically walk down my street. And I don't know what I hate more. Like the half-hearted attempts to pick their shit off of what is, constitutes my lawn, which is like the piece of green that is outside of my house, or the fact that every single one of them walking their dog is completely ignoring stop signs and will just like walk into intersections no matter what, while looking at their phone. And I just need you guys to do better. Help me help you not hit you with my car.

• 1:15:10Andy Greenwald?

  This is again incredible because the pivot from I went to a hardcore festival this weekend to yelling at pedestrian corner.

• 1:15:16Chris Ryan?

  This is why like, you know.

• 1:15:17Andy Greenwald?

  You can tame multitudes.

• 1:15:18Chris Ryan?

  LA also makes me feel empty. It's this like the quotidian problems that I have when I come back here versus like, you know, I fought the cold to go see Tiger Shaw, you know?

• 1:15:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but you don't like, people, long-term listeners know that you have an issue with people running wild in your neighborhood. Driving too fast. That was the whole thing once.

• 1:15:35Chris Ryan?

  I got in trouble for that.

• 1:15:36Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right.

• 1:15:37Chris Ryan?

  Guy chased me down because he said I blew through a stop sign. I was like, I slowed down. It's a California rule.

• 1:15:42Andy Greenwald?

  Is that, is that allowed?

• 1:15:43Chris Ryan?

  Eh, like, the California stop?

• 1:15:46Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:15:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:47Andy Greenwald?

  Is it like California sober?

• 1:15:48Chris Ryan?

  Come on, you, you know what this is.

• 1:15:50Speaker 06

  I've gotten a traffic ticket for-

• 1:15:52Chris Ryan?

  For California stopping?

• 1:15:53Speaker 06

  Yes, yes.

• 1:15:54Chris Ryan?

  They got a lot of stop signs here, man.

• 1:15:56Andy Greenwald?

  With good reason. Society keeps telling us to go, go, go. Why not use that time?

• 1:16:01Chris Ryan?

  That's what Karen Bass is doing.

• 1:16:02Andy Greenwald?

  Just slow down.

• 1:16:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Andy Greenwald?

  Put the second screen away, man. Just be present in your life.

• 1:16:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:07Andy Greenwald?

  Think about that Malcolm Jamal Warner was lost.

• 1:16:08Chris Ryan?

  You never know, there might be another Yanis podcast out there that you haven't listened to.

• 1:16:13Andy Greenwald?

  Don't get me started on that.

• 1:16:14Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, we didn't talk about PG.

• 1:16:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, what do you, what do you think?

• 1:16:19Chris Ryan?

  I, I can't comment. I can't comment.

• 1:16:22Andy Greenwald?

  Cause you, you know the-

• 1:16:23Chris Ryan?

  No, I don't know. And I just feel like it's just, it's all too vague. You know what I mean? I wouldn't want to be like, how dare he betray us?

• 1:16:29Andy Greenwald?

  So that you're speaking about for people who are uninterested in-

• 1:16:31Chris Ryan?

  Paul George, who is an important piece of the Philadelphia 76ers renaissance that we're experiencing. He was fucking good the other night.

• 1:16:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, which is why they immediately drug tested him.

• 1:16:40Chris Ryan?

  Uh, yeah, but like, he said-

• 1:16:42Andy Greenwald?

  I, I was questioning renaissance, but yes, he's, he has been playing well.

• 1:16:45Chris Ryan?

  Paul George got suspended for 25 games for taking an illegal substance and in his statement was just like, "I have been working on my mental health."

• 1:16:53Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:16:53Chris Ryan?

  And was not diligent in checking certain things.

• 1:16:56Andy Greenwald?

  So-

• 1:16:56Chris Ryan?

  And I accept full responsibilities for my actions. You can speculate all you want about what that means in relationship to getting a, uh, a drug violation, but-

• 1:17:05Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:06Chris Ryan?

  Um, yeah, there's a lot of conspiracy thinking about this.

• 1:17:10Andy Greenwald?

  Cause it saved the money in the luxury tax.

• 1:17:11Chris Ryan?

  I also, but like, it also takes Paul George relatively off the board as a trade piece.

• 1:17:16Andy Greenwald?

  I don't want, I don't want those trades to happen. I, I just think that it's a, it's a relatively relatable mistake that he didn't read the fine print on the back of the mojito flavored Zins.

• 1:17:27Andy Greenwald?

  So, which is also why you're not playing in the league anymore.

• 1:17:29Chris Ryan?

  I keep getting served. Like, some, I'm, obviously I know why I'm getting served this, but it's like pouches that are not nicotine, but are like pure focus. And I'm like-

• 1:17:40Andy Greenwald?

  What's in them?

• 1:17:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Right? Should I find out?

• 1:17:46Andy Greenwald?

  The slippery slope I'm on is that now 70% of the reels that get suggested to me are just fully Italian cooking videos, not like, here's how to make pasta, but they're in Italian.

• 1:17:56Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:57Andy Greenwald?

  I imagine for Italians, which I'm really enjoying. Like, I'm kinda getting the vibe.

• 1:18:02Chris Ryan?

  She's sighing over there. I don't think she's loving.

• 1:18:05Andy Greenwald?

  But now, you can end the podcast. I just wanted to tell you that they're starting to get, they're starting to veer a little like Turkish.

• 1:18:12Chris Ryan?

  Oh, oh. I know what that means.

• 1:18:14Andy Greenwald?

  I don't either. But I'm like, where else is this?

• 1:18:16Chris Ryan?

  Like, hair transplants or like, just like Turkish food?

• 1:18:19Andy Greenwald?

  I just want to know if, yeah, they're like, ah, this is like a beautiful lambskewer. I imagine. I don't speak Turkish, but like, give me time.

• 1:18:27Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:18:28Andy Greenwald?

  But I wonder what it's the gateway to. Like, what's next? Is it?

• 1:18:32Chris Ryan?

  Having 34 cats?

• 1:18:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, or is it soft authoritarianism? I don't, I don't know.

• 1:18:36Chris Ryan?

  Next time on The Watch, we'll get to the bottom of all of that. Thanks to Kaya.

• 1:18:39Andy Greenwald?

  Could we make like a skinny bundle where people can listen to the podcast without this part?

• 1:18:43Speaker 06

  Can I add something?

• 1:18:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:45Andy Greenwald?

  Of course.

• 1:18:45Chris Ryan?

  Jesus.

• 1:18:47Speaker 06

  New Nancy Meyers movie with Penelope Cruz, Kieran Culkin, Jude Law.

• 1:18:52Chris Ryan?

  They're shooting this this spring, right?

• 1:18:54Andy Greenwald?

  Like, announced?

• 1:18:55Speaker 06

  Christmas Day, 27.

• 1:18:57Andy Greenwald?

  Have they?

• 1:18:58Chris Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:18:59Andy Greenwald?

  This all just happened while we were recording?

• 1:19:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Kieran Culkin, Penelope Cruz, and who?

• 1:19:02Speaker 06

  Jude Law.

• 1:19:04Andy Greenwald?

  Jude Law back? Is it holiday two? Were there any plot threads?

• 1:19:07Chris Ryan?

  No, it's like, she's, she has like one last, I think it's a very, it's buildings Roman.

• 1:19:13Andy Greenwald?

  Like Ella Mackay kind of vibes?

• 1:19:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. No, I think it's like, it's like, there's something about, I thought it was-

• 1:19:20Speaker 06

  Emma Mackie is in it too.

• 1:19:22Chris Ryan?

  Hell, yeah, brother!

• 1:19:24Andy Greenwald?

  The Mackie-Sance.

• 1:19:24Chris Ryan?

  I like her.

• 1:19:25Andy Greenwald?

  I do too.

• 1:19:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:26Andy Greenwald?

  It's not her fault.

• 1:19:29Andy Greenwald?

  You know?

• 1:19:31Andy Greenwald?

  She made that movie.

• 1:19:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, who could've known?

• 1:19:33Andy Greenwald?

  Who, who among us?

• 1:19:34Chris Ryan?

  Thank you, Kaya.

• 1:19:35Andy Greenwald?

  Thank you, Kaya.

• 1:19:36Speaker 06

  Thanks.

• 1:19:36Chris Ryan?

  Chime in, whatever. Especially when we're like in the ninth inning like this.

• 1:19:40Andy Greenwald?

  Do you have anything you'd like to say about like, video games or the mutant massacre from the early 90s X-Men comics?

• 1:19:46Chris Ryan?

  Or what you're reading, or what you're eating, or how you're driving?

• 1:19:49Andy Greenwald?

  Or how he's driving.

• 1:19:50Speaker 06

  I just finished over this weekend Among Friends by Hal Abbott, which I did not love.

• 1:19:57Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:19:57Speaker 06

  So, no strong rec for me.

• 1:19:59Chris Ryan?

  That is a perfect 110th minute of the podcast.

• 1:20:03Speaker 06

  It was okay.

• 1:20:04Chris Ryan?

  To be like, didn't quite like it.

• 1:20:05Andy Greenwald?

  It's a book.

• 1:20:08Chris Ryan?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:20:08Andy Greenwald?

  Hey, thanks, brother.

• 1:20:09Chris Ryan?

  Thanks to Kai. Thanks to Kai. Thanks to our listeners. We'll be back on Thursday. Once the pit drops, we'll be up after that. And we'll have some other stuff for you that night.

• 1:20:18Andy Greenwald?

  Can't wait.

• 1:20:27Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Fall is here and Whole Foods Market has everything you need for cozy meals, seasonal treats and easy entertaining. Elevate your hearty dishes with tasty bone-in beef short ribs or New York strip steaks with no added growth hormones or antibiotics. And as the fall evenings draw in, why not get ahead of cold season with immunity shots, herbal teas, lozenges and supplements? Make sure you look for sales throughout the month. Shop fall flavors with higher standards at Whole Foods Market.