E178 - Jesse Michels: What UFO Sightings Reveal About Power, Technology, and the Unknown

In this conversation, Jesse Michels joins me to explore a question that’s becoming harder to dismiss: what if the phenomenon we call UFOs points to something real—and we don’t yet know what it is? Rather than arguing for belief or disbelief, this episode is an invitation to curiosity, careful inquiry, and intellectual honesty about the limits of our current understanding. We examine historical UFO encounters near nuclear sites, government secrecy, and the growing body of anomalies that don’t sit comfortably within a purely materialist worldview. This is a conversation about staying grounded while remaining open. About asking better questions. And about whether phenomena like UFOs, non-human intelligence, or something we haven’t yet named might be nudging us to expand how we think about reality, consciousness, and our place in the universe. Momentous: Best Creatine in the game https://livemomentous.com [Use code KNOWTHYSELF for up to 35% off] BONCHARGE - 15% off red light therapy products I personally use https://www.boncharge.com/knowthyself [Code: KNOWTHYSELF] André's Book Recs: https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com/book-list ___________ 00:00 Intro 06:36 Questioning the Nature of Reality 09:18 A Timeline of Non-Human Intelligence Evidence 23:37 Why Nuclear Sites Attract Attention 31:55 Extraordinary Claims, Extraordinary Evidence 40:29 Ad: Momentous 41:51 Letting Go of Human-Centric Thinking 47:49 Studying Claims Without Dismissing People 58:58 Non-Human Biologics and Physical Evidence 1:06:10 Ad: Boncharge 1:07:25 What May Have Been Quietly Explored 1:18:55 The Hidden Branch of Physics 1:26:38 Reframing Aliens Through Consciousness 1:33:33 Grays, Nordics, and Reptilians Explained 1:40:10 Why We Don’t See Reality Directly 1:53:58 Glimpses Outside Linear Time 1:58:44 Why Aliens Look Strangely Human 2:07:32 Shared Phenomena in Altered States 2:15:32 Jesse’s Personal UFO Experiences 2:23:35 The Monolith as a Metaphor 2:29:07 The Problem With Visual Proof 2:35:24 What Is Actually Happening? 2:46:47 Voices Worth Listening To 2:51:22 What Would You Ask an Alien? 2:53:19 Closing Thoughts ___________ Episode Resources: https://www.youtube.com/Jessemichels https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial/ https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/ https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ https://www.youtube.com/@knowthyselfpodcast https://www.knowthyselfpodcast.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  For whatever reason, UFOs seem to show up consistently around nuclear installations. And they're all like, we don't know how the hell this happened. There's some sort of phenomena at play. My extraordinary claim is like, there's something worthy of investigation here. But ignoring the evidence, I think that's a tragedy. So you hear of all these abduction cases, like, let's admit that we're seeing stuff in the sky. You're sort of poking holes in the dam that is the existing paradigm. Just following the data takes you to extremely epistemically weird places, no matter what. This is kind of a Andre exclusive here. We're probably not at the top of the food chain and there's like something else going on.

• 0:39André Duqum?

  Sheesh.

• 0:40Speaker 00

  It's really unlikely that they look like not only us, but they look like what a conventional evolutionary biologist would say humans look like in the future. But until people see like a full-scale craft, I think they'll be skeptical and they have the right to be. In fact, there are good reasons to believe they're not aliens from other planets and they're actually more connected to mankind. Looking to ancient stories can be really illustrative of what is possibly going on today.

• 1:07André Duqum?

  All right, well, if there's any aliens listening right now, hit your boys up. We've got some questions.

• 1:12Speaker 00

  Let's go, yeah.

• 1:20André Duqum?

  What's up, everyone? Welcome back to the podcast. Today, we're joined with a journalist and researcher who has an incredible grounded energy about him, exploring quite existential topics, from UFOs to non-human intelligence to the limits of what we think about reality. And I'm just extremely excited to dive into this conversation with Jesse Michaels. Thank you for being here, man.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Thank you, Andre. I'm very happy to be here. I've been a fan of your show for a while, so this is very cool for me.

• 1:48André Duqum?

  One of my favorite things to do on the podcast is get to see people's work that I admire online, that I see. You've been producing some incredible documentaries, like you're releasing, what, monthly years?

• 1:59Speaker 00

  Now it's weekly, which is kind of crazy.

• 2:01André Duqum?

  Wow, yeah. That's a lot of output.

• 2:04Speaker 00

  It's a lot of output. And thank you for calling them documentaries. Some of them do include like a little more B-roll and editing, and so it's definitely intense. And we'll see if we can keep up that pace, but thank you.

• 2:17André Duqum?

  Yeah, man. No, it's incredible work and...

• 2:21André Duqum?

  I have not done a topic or a podcast on this topic, solely because I feel like there are a lot of people with interesting intentions, or maybe just don't have the level headedness that's required to explore such a topic. And for most people, I think this topic feels a bit impractical, in a sense where it's not necessarily what is needed most for their life, you know, to dive into these deep rabbit holes. But it is also one of the most existential topics of if we are alone in this universe, you know? And I think Arthur C. Clarke is quoted about, you know, both being equally terrifying, either us being alone or not in this universe. And so what's your perspective on that?

• 3:06André Duqum?

  Just to start, as we begin to peel back the layers here, how this topic for most seems like maladaptive? I think you've been quoted.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  Yes, yeah, totally. I always try to not be actually an evangelist of the topic in person when I see people, because, and sometimes they don't even know I'm like into UFOs for like a long period of time, until it organically comes up, or they like see I have a YouTube channel or something. I do think it's, maladaptive may be a strong word, but like, not immediately practical for a lot of people. And I think like a lot of the stuff you cover on your channel around spirituality and tools to, you know, help, you know, your spiritual practice daily, I think a lot of that stuff is actually kind of more concrete and more actionable.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  You know, if you have Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you'd put that like first, right? You'd put like the existential questions about like, what is the nature of reality, like up at the very top? And like you alluded to at the beginning, you know, of your intro, it attracts all sorts of, you know, grandiosity complexes, people with these sort of autobiographical like, you know, I'm a star seed who was sent here. I'm the only one, by the way, no one else is, you know, the person. And I'm here to enlighten humanity. And And so it's it's full it's it's full of of landmines, the space, to be honest. Having said that. You are a stasi. Yeah. Having said that. I am from Arcoturis, actually.

• 4:43Speaker 00

  No. Having said that, I do think if you there are a few people or subset of people, I think, in society who care about like, what is this soup that we're swimming in called reality? What is this? And they get into kind of esoteric fizz. And you're in you're obviously in the subset, clearly, because I watch your show. Love the soup. Hey, you love the soup. You want to know what is the what is the substrate in which we are kind of operating? And so you've had Donald Hoffman on and you explore why, you know, seeing reality for what it is is actually maladaptive from like, you know, survival standpoint. I think there's this felt sense for a lot of those people and people generally that

• 5:24Speaker 00

  our understanding of reality is incomplete and off. And I think if you start kind of in that epistemically humble, like with that sort of claim, then I think beings between man and God are a part of that. Or beings, you know, if you don't believe in God, above man and the kind of, you know, the chain of consciousness command or, you know, the hierarchy, so to speak, I think is is a part of that. And I think there are all these empirical observable anomalies, both in science and that the military have observed, you know, that aerospace executives are talking about now, that people in the highest ranks of, you know, American intelligence are now discussing

• 6:09Speaker 00

  very openly, that point to our reality being just much trippier than meets the eye, specifically with respect to us not being alone in the universe and non-human intelligence being real. And so, again, maybe not adaptive for somebody day to day, but if you want to understand what is going on on kind of a higher level, I think it's dogmatic if you're not incorporating that into your model.

• 6:36André Duqum?

  It does feel like a topic, once you start seeing compelling evidence for, that is like a rug pull to the materialist reductionist notion of reality, which I think is actually needed now more than ever in the various different ways it can happen. What are your thoughts on that?

• 6:53Speaker 00

  I love it. Yeah, that's a great, a rug pull is a great way to put it. I think, it's funny, the show is always like compressed into like, you know, this, you're a UFO show, you know? But I think really, it's, it's what is the nature of reality? And what is this paradigm shift we're on the verge of? And so I think that's, you could kind of come up with like an iron triangle sort of framework, where you have one, one leg, which is UFOs, the fact that we're not alone. Another leg, which is maybe more exotic physics or anti-gravity. So, okay, let's admit that we're seeing stuff in the sky. Is it our own stuff? You know, and maybe we've made some breakthroughs, kind of, you know, in the classified world. So like, one of those is probably true. And then the third leg, which I think you explore a lot, is consciousness.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  And is this just like an interface? And is reality actually much more malleable? And kind of subjective and participatory, as John Wheeler would say, than, than we realize? And I think if you can stay at the front of those three things, one's gotta be right. And you're sort of poking holes in the dam that is the existing paradigm. You know, Thomas Kuhn's wrote a book called The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, and he's often cited as like the preeminent guy when it comes to figuring out, you know, how scientific revolutions occur. So like, one example would be electromagnetism in the 19th century. One, another example would be the quantum revolution or general relativity in the, in the 20th century.

• 8:22Speaker 00

  And in all of the cases, you see this law of declining marginal returns at the end of the paradigm, where you have all of these commentators being like, we're kind of at the end of history. Like, we've written all of the rules of reality, just like there are rules to the game of chess or something, and we're trying to figure out that last piece. And then the whole thing just kind of breaks. And the way it often breaks is- The anomalies. So the anomalies sort of build up. The anomalies don't work within the model. So they're empirical observations that don't make sense within the given framework. And those sort of build up, they accumulate, and then the dam just sort of breaks. And so I think if you kind of are systematically at the forefront of those three things,

• 9:04Speaker 00

  I think there's something to all of them, but you don't have to think there's something to all of them. You could think they're all 50% likely to be true or whatever. And then in aggregate, you know, you end up with a much higher probability that, you know, we're on the verge of some sort of paradigm shift.

• 9:20Speaker 02

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• 9:48André Duqum?

  I think it really does help when you look back historically, connect the dots, looking back at all the various different paradigms that did get shattered because of a new innovation, a stack of these anomalies, just the worldview that was held culturally. And from the point of view of a 25th century human, or whatever we are at that point, looking back, surely we could contemplate what might be some limiting perspectives and paradigms that are so prevalent right now. And it feels like we are on the precipice of many of those breaking. And I think you mentioned a few of those different avenues that could explain these different anomalies from the anti-gravity to the consciousness.

• 10:34André Duqum?

  And I want to unpack all of those with you and actually see how many of them are interconnected in different aspects of this all. But for people that are a bit new to this topic, how would you lay out the timeline sort of for the evidence of non-human intelligence, extraterrestrial, UFO, UAP? And?

• 10:55André Duqum?

  Yeah, kind of the uptick and why mid-century all this started to become more obvious.

• 11:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I'll give you the modern history of UFOs because you can go way back to Sanskrit epics, talking about vimanas, or various wonders in the sky.

• 11:14André Duqum?

  Dogon tribe.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  Dogon tribe, exactly, talking about Sirius and actually predicting the planet before. It's amazing, right? So around the star system before regular astronomy did. And so, yeah, you have all these kind of ancient civilizational, possible pieces of evidence. You have the wheels of Ezekiel and the Bible, of course. There's a lot of example in antiquity around this stuff. But I'd say the modern history, you could kind of date back to Roswell and the start of the American intelligence agencies. And so that history would go something like, basically, the advent of the nuclear age.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  So you had Oppenheimer, really Fermi theoretically cracked the atom, but Oppenheimer did it in sort of a practical way, created the bomb. And for whatever reason, UFOs seemed to show up around consistently nuclear installations in the late 40s. And that started with Los Alamos, which of course was the original site of the Manhattan Project. It was distributed all over the country, but obviously Los Alamos was where most of the testing was occurring, most of the personnel were. And so you have these crashes. You have a crash that a guy named Jacques Vallée, who's this French godfather of UFO research, actually investigated in 1945 in Trinity, in San Antonito, which is in New

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Mexico. You have 1947, which was the Roswell crash, which you have, I think, tons of evidence around, where you have a crash occur in the town of Roswell, a few beings seem to come out. And this is now being talked about at the highest levels of intelligence. There's a new documentary out called The Age of Disclosure, where the... The former director of national intelligence, which governs all of our, you know, intelligence agencies, is in a movie that talks about Roswell, which is pretty crazy. And that was in July of 1947. And in September of 1947, you get the creation of, you have the National Security Act under

• 13:23Speaker 00

  Truman, you have the creation of the CIA and of basically our kind of modern intelligence apparatus after the OSS. And since then, you've had basically UFOs showing up across nuclear sites all over the country. So, you know, Hanford Site in Washington, Savannah River Site in South Carolina, Malmstrom Nuclear Base in Montana, you know, I could literally talk about individual cases in all of these places, Effie Warren in Nebraska. So like all over the US, UFOs are showing up around nukes. In 1947, the head of Air Material Command, who basically is responsible for all aircraft development for the Air Force, a guy named Nathan Twining, writes this famous memo to

• 14:08Speaker 00

  this brigadier. And it's, basically, he says, like, UFOs are not visionary or fictitious. And he goes on to discuss the fact that they're making these sort of crazy right angle turns, they're flying at, you know, mocks and speeds that like, you know, human aircraft simply can't fly. And then he goes on to say at the very end, which I think is really interesting in the postscript, he says, you know, "We actually have the means to start to build things like these, but if we ever did have such a program, you know, if this were to happen, it would have to exist pretty much outside of the civilian bureaucracy of government." And so then you have this idea that UFO crash retrieval programs or reverse engineering

• 14:53Speaker 00

  programs get kind of put under the secrecy of atomic energy secrecy. You have the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, and in it, you have a special definition of nuclear material. And it's basically anything emitting alpha, beta, gamma radiation that's found, like, by any contractor, anybody, is immediately born secret. It's this new clause called restrict- Did data, so it's not like something's reviewed and then classified. It is just classified, if it's at all radiological. So basically, from 1947 to 1952, you have this kind of earnest interest, à la the Twining Memo, which I just mentioned, for the American government, where they're like, we think there's something here, we don't know what to make of it.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  There's a project, Sign, Project Grudge. There's another project called Project Twinkle, which is this meteor expert from University of New Mexico. His name is Lincoln La Paz. And he basically comes to the conclusion that you have these green fireballs popping up after atomic detonations and actually chasing the plumes of the detonations. And this is occurring all over. And he says, I don't know what to make of this, but they seem to be intelligently moving, you know, sort of intelligently propulsed. And this is not like a dogmatic UFO guy. Then in 1952, July 19th and July 27th, so two weekends, you have a huge wave of UFOs over DC.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  And it's called the DC Flap, or the DC Flyover. And there's a famous newspaper clipping that you can literally see, like, the headline, it goes, "DC's, or saucers on the White House lawn." And, you know, this is like, literally being reported on. And there's even an aviation journalist named Curtis Peebles, who claims that Truman, who was president, was so freaked out about this, that he ends up on a phone call with Captain Edward J. Ruppel of the Air Force, who's running Project Blue Book at the time. So that's somewhat apocryphal, and I'd love some more verification on whether that phone call occurred, but 100%, there's like, mass hysteria in DC.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  I've even met with one of the, you know, surviving witnesses of the DC flyover, discussing how there was sort of mass hysteria around this. Right after that, which is, I don't think this is coincidental, the CIA does a review of UFOs, and it's called the Robertson Panel. And all these top astronomers and scientists in the US, under Caltech physicist named H.P. Robertson. They do this thing called the Robertson Panel. And this is now declassified, but it was classified at the time. So it was meant to be secret. And they basically come to the conclusion that, you know, if the UFO knowledge were to be like, you know, unleashed, or people were to basically know that like UFOs were flying

• 17:43Speaker 00

  with total impunity over our most hardcore defense assets. And we admitted that, the highest levels of government, that would touch off mass hysteria. Especially, think about like the Cold War, you know, mindset where like, you know, you're in elementary school and you're getting, you know, videotapes, you know, of like, you know, duck, dive and roll or whatever, because you're so worried that like, you know, an atomic war could start at any time. So the CIA makes that call. They create this thing called Project Blue Book, which is the official UFO Investigations Program on behalf of the Air Force. And that takes place from 1952 to 1969.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  And basically, like, in the mandate, in the charter of Project Blue Book, you have this, this, basically, let's downplay UFOs, let's rationalize, let's explain away UFOs. We were talking earlier, you said you're from Michigan. There's a famous case in 1966 where Jalen Hynek, who's this Northwestern astronomer, who's basically the chief astronomer for Blue Book, who later admits that he's part of the cover-up and that he didn't take UFOs as seriously as he should have. He, you know, partakes in documentaries about UFOs. He's, in 1966, they say that there's this swamp gas in Michigan. Everybody in Michigan is like, that's ridiculous. We saw UFOs, we saw lights in the sky.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  And so in 1966, there is a review by this guy named Edward Condon about, you know, basically, what was Blue Book's efforts? Were they like, actually worth it? Did we spend money on anything possibly productive? He does this with the University of Colorado. And he comes out of the thing saying like, I think, you know, this was a total waste of time. Now, what people don't know- We now have letters between him and an Air Force Colonel, Robert Hippler, where Robert Hippler is telling him, "We don't want to pay for Blue Book anymore. We want you to say that this is a total waste of time." A lot of the cases that they did review, I think 25% are still unresolved.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  So like, you know, that's not inconsistent with there being actual UFOs. And then Condon was actually very close with Oppenheimer. They studied at Gottingen in Germany together in the 20s. And he's responsible for writing the McMahon Secrecy Act in 1946, which gets turned into the Atomic Energy Act of 1954. So he's like this total insider in the Manhattan Project, who is arguably responsible for creating modern day UFO secrecy in some ways. So you get that time and time again, where a lot of these debunkers who end up stigmatizing the topic for a very long time to come, were actually tied in with the early kind of atomic programs in the US. So he's a good example of that.

• 20:35Speaker 00

  And from then on, you get this like crazy kind of stigma attached to the UFO topic. You have a couple, you have in 1974, a documentary called UFOs Past, Present and Future, where the Air Force starts to change its tune and starts to become more open about the topic. And J. Allen Hynek kind of admits that, you know, maybe there is something real here. And Jacques Vallée, who I, you know, mentioned earlier, this kind of French godfather of ufology, is actually J. Allen Hynek's assistant. And he takes part in that documentary, which is really interesting. And then in the 80s, you have the advent of stealth craft. So like aircrafts that, you know, they have their radar cross-sections reduced. And, you know, they can evade ground systems, you know,

• 21:19Speaker 00

  if you're the Soviets or the Chinese. And so you have the F-117, the B-2 stealth bomber. And I think a lot of games get played around calling those UFOs, kind of. You know, the U-2 spy plane, the SR-71 before that, I think were mistaken for UFOs. So there's this constant sort of cross, you know, wiring of like, what's ours, what's theirs, sort of thing. And it's important to stay kind of hard-headed about that. But you also have some stories that come out in the 80s around. Like this guy Bob Lazar, who claims that he's at S4 Area 51 and he's working directly on area, on UFOs, on reverse engineering UFOs. And he gets the job through Edward Teller, who is father of the hydrogen bomb. And it's this crazy story that's like really hard

• 22:01Speaker 00

  to debunk. Like, the best debunkers probably have trouble, you know, denying that he worked at Area 51. And a lot of the core details seem to check and actually get corroborated over time. And this is Joe Rogan's number one viewed episode of all time, is Bob Lazar. And it's still kind of, you know, UFOs are still kind of in the lore, not necessarily like as popular as they are today. Then in 2017, you have this New York Times article written by Leslie Kane. And basically, this outs that there were these UFO, not necessarily reverse engineering programs, but study groups going on from 2007 to 2012, this program

• 22:44Speaker 00

  called OSAP. And this took place primarily at Skinwalker Ranch, which is, seems to be like a weird portal of sorts, where like a lot of weird electromagnetic anomalies occur. They see UFOs. It's a show on the History Channel now, which is kind of strange. And then it also goes into detail on these three different videos, the Go Fast, the Gimbal video, and the Nimitz video of 2004, this Nimitz Carrier Strike Group, Commander David Fravor, and a bunch of other witnesses seeing this UFO, this Tic Tac object off the coast of San Diego, which is this really kind of famous case that a lot of people put weight in because you have a lot of eyewitnesses. And then you have forward looking infrared video, you have thermal video, essentially.

• 23:28André Duqum?

  Which tracked at what speed and time? Because it was like, we're moving at ridiculous.

• 23:33Speaker 00

  Ridiculous. I think it was like seven eighths of a second to go from zero to 30,000 feet, or something like that. So it's just like ridiculous sorts of speeds that are like well beyond, you know, prosaic. And I believe Commander David Fravor even worked, went on to work at Lockheed. And like, he's like, there's just no way that any, and they would be like, you know, at the top of kind of like stealth craft stuff.

• 23:58André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 23:59Speaker 00

  So, and a lot of those guys are, you know, pretty, pretty well versed on like advanced deviation. And they're all like, we don't know how the hell this happened.

• 24:08André Duqum?

  So.

• 24:10André Duqum?

  What is it specifically about nuclear sites and particle accelerators that, from the perspective of extraterrestrial life, might be the timing in which they would want to come, potentially intervene, or observe, or interfere with the stage of evolution that humanity finds itself entering?

• 24:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a great question, and we'd have to speculate. I don't know. But having said that, I think there's some really interesting theories. There's a great Chinese science fiction novel called The Three-Body Problem. It talks about these tricelerian, it's called tricelerian because they live in, you know, the Three-Body Problem's based on this like, you know, three-star system, which is inherently an unstable orbit. It's literally like a mathematical problem.

• 24:57André Duqum?

  Yeah, inherently chaotic.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  It's inherently chaotic, and you have these kind of civilizational resets and cataclysms. And so they actually, basically, have to invade Earth and mess with the frontier physics that we're doing. And you end up with all these physicists that die in these sort of mysterious ways. You get particle accelerator experiments that are giving different readouts on different occasions. And so physics feels far more at the discretion of these alien beings than we actually realize. So the whole thing's so strange. All of that's to say, I don't know if that book is a real map of reality. I do know it was read at the highest levels of government in these sort of official working

• 25:43Speaker 00

  groups under National Security Advisor Steven Hadley in, I think, 2006 or '07, when the book came out, which is interesting. I don't know if it's a map of reality, though. And I will say, if you were an alien civilization and you wanted to minimally interfere without, you know, necessarily altering timelines, you know, if you have kind of a point of most leverage, an Archimedes lever, so to speak, where would you interfere? If you really didn't want to interfere, but you had to minimally interfere, it would be at nuclear sites, it would be at particle accelerators, it would be at the frontier Here of human ingenuity and science. Science in some ways creates the boundary for reality itself.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  Like the boundary that we can kind of play and operate in. You know, it really is the limits of our like of our technology that we use. And so why wouldn't you monitor that stuff? You probably would. Another theory would be that like they're sort of monitoring or mining us for something. So like we think of resources, right? It's like, you know, you have this whole rare earths thing with China where they do all the rare earth, you know, refinement or like, you know, gold or silver or like, you know, the oil or, you know, whatever you see what's happening in Venezuela right now, which is pretty crazy. Maybe they think of resources as like emotions or something or like, you know, like, you know, they just need, earth is somehow something that they are mining,

• 27:11Speaker 00

  but it's on a level that we don't understand. And there's actually a guy named Robert Monroe who had, you know, is this thing called the Monroe Institute in Virginia, which is still up and running, which studies consciousness. And he did a lot of contract work with the CIA. And he thought that these alien beings were maybe mining us for loose. And these were the bad alien beings. He thought that there were maybe factions, but the bad ones were mining us for loose, which is like literally mining us for bad vibes. And so the point would be who the hell knows if that's real. But like, if you just wanted to maintain some earth homeostasis, because you were mining the bad vibes or the good vibes, you know, like you would want the human race to survive and you would monitor nuclear sites, right?

• 27:53Speaker 00

  Like it's a, it's a true miracle that like the nuclear sequences haven't gone off till today. It's, it's, it's, we're really, really lucky. So that's, I think, and in a lot of these cases, by the way, there's a great book called UFOs and Nukes by Robert Hastings. And it is a database of all of these, you know, UFO nuclear cases where you have guys who are on what's called the PRP program where they have to report if they're taking Ibuprofen. You know, so they have to be the picture of mental health to get their job as radar operators or missile security, you know, officers or, you know, whatever they're, they're on, you know, They often have secret or top secret clearance. They're on nuclear sites. They're next to missiles.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  And they often report that the missile's going down. And sometimes in one or two cases, sequences being activated, but they always get deactivated. But it seems like-

• 28:47André Duqum?

  There were reports of like a saucer looking thing going around shooting like laser beams at-

• 28:53Speaker 00

  Yes, literally. Yes, literally. That's a great case. So this is September of 1964 at Vandenberg Air Force Base, which is in Santa Barbara. And there's a guy named Bob Jacobs. He's a photo instrumentation specialist. And he goes up to Big Sur, which is like 80 miles up the coast, to view this Atlas missile taking off. And this dummy nuclear payload, you know, goes off it, goes off the, you know, the missile. And, and, you know, it's supposed to be this test, right? Vandenberg is actually supposed to just be like a missile testing site. And he does the instrumentation. He's like, wow, this is, you know, this is cool, whatever. Goes back to the base. The next day, they're reviewing the footage.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  And they see a saucer wrapping around the dummy nuclear payload and, or the reentry vehicle. And lasers being shot at it. And it starts to get wobbly. And then it basically leaves orbit because of this UFO, which interferes with it. And these two guys in tweed gray jackets are like sitting behind Bob Jacobs. They basically swear him to secrecy. They say, you're never to speak about this again. They make him sign an NDA. He is then, he eventually goes public with this. He's threatened. He's intimidated. Somebody calls him and says like, "Mailbox alight, what a beautiful sight," or something.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  And his mailbox blows up. They delete his records from, they say he never served in the Air Force. And that was literally like, as a researcher, you couldn't really say he did necessarily serve as the Air Force. Until the guy who managed him, this guy, Florence Mansman, this major in the Air Force, comes out and- The 90s, I think he's affiliated with Stanford at the time. And he's like, no, Bob Jacobs not only worked for me, he managed 130 people. And he's alive today. You could talk to him like he's this very salt of the earth, like not a liar. You know? And so, yeah, that's just one example and it's crazy. And this is even crazier. I'll get you. This is kind of an Andre exclusive here. I just interviewed this. That was September of 1964.

• 31:04Speaker 00

  I just interviewed another guy who's at Vandenberg, September of 1964. This guy's in his 80s, didn't even know Bob Jacobs. And he had an alien encounter where he was guarding this shack next to this like launch facility. And he gets like cornered by this hooded being. And the being like takes off the hood. It doesn't look human. He passes out, freaks out, wakes up on a craft, is on a craft overlooking. He sees through a little hole in the UFO that he's overlooking Vandenberg Air Force Base. His name's Richard Barth, by the way. And he's on the craft with three or four alien beings that look like they seem to have babies heads.

• 31:49Speaker 00

  Very sort of strange. Then he comes down and he's back with the original kind of humanoid hooded figure. And that hooded figure is like sort of caressing him gently and basically telepathically telling him, we are here to do recon on your nuclear assets. We need to basically understand how this stuff works so we can disarm it at every time, at any time. You guys are on the verge of destroying yourself, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's just great. And like, again, this guy's like, you know, no, you know, bad mental health history, like very lucid. And the same month as Bob Jacobs and they didn't know each other. Whoa.

• 32:28Speaker 02

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• 32:55André Duqum?

  That's a trip.

• 32:56Speaker 00

  Really trip, yeah.

• 32:57André Duqum?

  So how do you, because you've done, whether it's like researching through Hastings' work and the various others, some of which you've mentioned, who have quite a swath of UFO sightings and abduction stories and a lot of what are internal subjective experiences that all we can really have, for the most part, is their word, trusting that what they're saying is sincere, is genuine. It could very well still be, because we know how the mind and the brain works, emerging like, understanding. We are capable of vast levels of self-deception and hallucination. But nonetheless, you see pattern recognition over time from completely

• 33:40André Duqum?

  disparate parts on the planet. And, you know, you can extrapolate things. And so I'm just curious what you make of this, like, profound claims need profound amounts of evidence. Do you feel like that level of evidence is there to justify those claims?

• 33:56Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah, it's a great question. And that's a great quote from the great Carl Sagan. And I think that is the case. But here's what I would say, is I would walk back the claims of most people in UFO world. Most people in UFO world, they're like, there are definitely aliens visiting us, and they're from these three star systems. And you have reptilians and nordics and gray, you know. And so I would say, you know, my extraordinary claim is like, there's something worthy of investigation here, like, clearly, you know? If you go bolder in your claim, I do think you need more evidence for which we don't necessarily have that evidence. I think you have to like, have an extremely open kind

• 34:36Speaker 00

  of aperture as far as what conclusions you draw from the evidence. But ignoring the evidence, I think, is that's a tragedy. That's like where then I think you fall into kind of the other side, like dogmatic skepticism. I think science is a constant process of the Scylla and Charybdis, the two failure modes are extreme belief in everything, everything is everything. And, you know, like, A and B can't be true if they're mutually exclusive, which like, we engage in all the time in UFO. World or whatever. And then the other side is extreme dogmatic skepticism where the evidence could literally be staring you in the face and you just won't look at it. You won't look at the data set. And I've had arguments, you know, I like did this informal

• 35:19Speaker 00

  debate with Michael Shermer, who's a great skeptic. Yeah. And like, he's really smart. I really like him. But often it's one of those things where, so I agree with, you know, your point that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I do think a lot of people who aren't in UFO world assume that it's not a repeatable pattern. They assume it's like random person in the middle of the woods, or like, you know, farmer who like sees the thing. And then, you know, they're trying to like, they have some histrionic complex, and they want to be famous in their local village or whatever. And I think the nuclear thing is a good kind of path to go down for the skeptic, because science has to be repeatable.

• 36:01Speaker 00

  And you're talking about a repeatable phenomenon that we were talking earlier before the show. Not only is this happening at nuclear bases across the United States, and you have literally declassified documents from the late 40s of the Air Force, the Army Counter, you know, CIC, the CIA, all discussing this, the FBI, like literally from all these disparate agencies talking about UFOs showing up at these different sites. You could say, you could come up with some sort of like, you know, okay, the guys working there are being brainwashed, the documents are being forged. It's like a US deep state thing, right? Psyops, yeah, yeah. Psyop, yeah. And then you realize that there's literally a town in Japan called Lino,

• 36:42Speaker 00

  or it's called Ino, rather, spelled L I N O. And it is right next to the Fukushima Prefecture, where they have their civilian nuclear grid, which is famous for this 2011 spill that they had. And basically, a large percentage of this town is obsessed with UFOs. And you have this thing called Mount Sengon Mori there, which is this mountain, where we have all these geomagnetic anomalies, you have all these sightings, you have all these people claiming to see UFOs in certain cases beings. And you have a museum dedicated to UFOs up there. You have a famous 1995 case in Bariloche, Argentina, where a lot of UFOs seem to show up. And that's around their civilian energy grid.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  You have similar claims around Chernobyl. And so when you get into the like, OK, is the monk at the Shinto Temple in Japan coordinating with the guy at Vandenberg Air Force Base? It's like, all of a sudden, in science, you have a null hypothesis, which is that our baseline understanding of reality, like our current model is real. And you try to go in to any sort of hypothesis, maintaining the null hypothesis for as long as possible. And I think you get into this territory where the null hypothesis becomes crazier than just admitting that there's some sort of phenomena at play. So what are we saying?

• 38:08Speaker 00

  There's some sort of cabal that's controlling the people in Japan that's also controlling the American military industrial complex. You're all of a sudden getting into parapsychological, psychical levels of control that itself would be extremely worthy of investigation and like, maybe I'm open to. But that's a weird claim unto itself, right? So I think that just following the data takes you to extremely epistemically weird places, no matter what. And then I would definitely not snap it to grid and say aliens from other planets. In fact, they're good reasons to believe they're not aliens from other planets, and they're actually more connected to mankind than we think.

• 38:51André Duqum?

  We're going to get into that. We'll get into that. Just to let it breathe for a second, what do you think would happen if it became self-evident to mass consciousness that aliens are real? Like, what do you think that would do to the average human mind?

• 39:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:07André Duqum?

  And belief systems?

• 39:09Speaker 00

  I think it could be extremely aspirational because if you think about a lot of these stories, the aliens seem to be sort of telepathic, have this sort of ability to manipulate reality that you could think of as being used nefariously, or you could think of as like, really cool. Like, you could do a lot with the world if you had that sort of parapsychological mind meld with, you know, we say that, you know, our world is kind of non-dualist or whatever. I think I could say that safely on this show, you know, and other people would, you know, wholeheartedly disagree with that and maybe, you know, kind of conventional dogmatic physics circles or whatever. But if you could go even farther than that, and like, the latency

• 39:53Speaker 00

  or bandwidth with which you affected reality with your mental state was actually, you know, far greater in the case of the bandwidth and far lower in the case of the latency, I think that would be really cool. I do think a lot of people are into this topic because they want some sort of forbidden knowledge. And there is this sort of left-hand path that you get into with, you know, anything that is sort of secret or occult or whatever, which is the wrong motivation. And you never get the thing by like, having that sort of motivation. So I think it's important to be cognizant of that. But if there is, you know, are there beings between man and God? I think that's aspirational. And, you know,

• 40:34Speaker 00

  is that the next evolution of mankind that is sort of atemporal, that has sort of, you know, access to a time-agnostic realm where you're not subject to Xeno's arrow of time, where every time you get out of the stream, you're in a different place? And we're kind of, you know, speaking of soup, we're stuck in this kind of epistemic soup of, you know, of time, essentially. You know, I think all of that's like, really exciting. I think it's humbling, because it's like, okay, what is this reality we're in? Maybe it's actually more limited in scope than we realize, you know? And that obviously dovetails with, you know, Don Hoffman and some of the other people you've had on, where physics is more of an

• 41:15Speaker 00

  adaptive interface for us. It is not, it's the map. It is not the territory. So you end up with all of these like, interesting kind of second-order questions that come from it, that I think are extremely healthy to ask as a human being.

• 41:30André Duqum?

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• 42:15André Duqum?

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• 42:57André Duqum?

  that human beings are not at the top of the universal food chain, so to speak, that there, that life is, I think it's Hall Day, JBS Hall Day, and it said, "Reality is not only stranger than we suppose, but stranger than we can suppose."

• 43:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:11André Duqum?

  And I think there is this inherent misguided effort to think of non-human intelligence in the ways that we think of human life. Like, we have this tendency to think of UFO crafts operating the way like an advanced airplane would, you know, traversing across the universe in the way that we would through space and time. And so, yeah, what comes up for you when we stop thinking about extraterrestrial life from the human-centric lens and that non-human intelligence may very well look or act or behave absolutely nothing like we do?

• 43:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's probably likely. Like, we're probably seeing...

• 43:57Speaker 00

  I mean, a la the Hoffman stuff, not to quote him too much, but it's like, we're probably like, we are probably not seeing reality itself. We're probably seeing kind of an adaptive low-level version of reality. And like, you could go back to Plato, where like, you're seeing shadow play. You're seeing simulacra of something sort of higher going on. And so I think, you know, exploring this stuff changes you as well. And that's maybe the dirty, dirty little secret, because you always in science want to separate the observer from the observed. I think that might collapse as a paradigm. And, and that's why I see this whole thing as a paradigm shift, kind of epistemologically, not just a scientific

• 44:38Speaker 00

  paradigm shift. Because in science, you're supposed to be this like perfectly, this perfect measurement sensor. Like, like, you're almost supposed to remove, remove the human. And it's only supposed to be like these, you know, like, an electron microscope that detected the thing, or radar, or whatever. And you can't trust your eyes as a human. And I think a lot of this stuff involves actually systematically exploring the human psyche, and just human, often one of one phenomenological experience, and not discarding that. And I think a new scientific model will have to incorporate that, a la Rudolf Steiner, who talks about spiritual science, where inner phenomena are just as valid as

• 45:19Speaker 00

  outer phenomena. And I think the, the interesting thing about studying a lot of the UFO stuff is you, you're really out of your depth, no matter what. And I think if you're not admitting that, then you're kind of this like grandstanding, you know, often chill in the, in the subject. And when you're, when you're, when you are so out of your depth, and you're sort of, you know, really in the dark, you're in sort of Plato's cave, or whatever, you really have to audit yourself, and you have to audit your own biases, and you have to become, you can't make these bold claim. Like, the second you make a bold claim, like, you know, like, somebody debunks a little thing, and you have to be like, okay, cool. Like, I'll follow the evidence there. And so I do think that's this extremely important part of

• 46:02Speaker 00

  the whole, the whole topic, is like, your own growth process, as you kind of look into and discover this stuff. And so, going back to your, your question, because I want to answer it, you know, it's like watching the, you know, the, the movie Arrival, which is based off of that Ted Ching, you know, sci-fi story, where it's like,

• 46:23Speaker 00

  Time and these sort of, these like cephalopods or whatever that like, and like, time is a weapon and like, you know, the ability to communicate with that thing is going to be so primitive for us and they're going to be having to like, understand our primitives and like adhere their language to us. So you hear of all these abduction cases, like John Mack, who is the head of Harvard, the Harvard Psychiatry Department in the 90s, started to systematically study alien abductions. And you hear about all these abductions and I think you can't take them at face value. I think the only thing you can take seriously, I mean, you look for patterns, of course, but you almost have

• 47:05Speaker 00

  to say like, whatever's going on has this like 360 demonic control, like it's like Descartes' demon, where it's like they have control over your sort of senses and your whole sensory apparatus. And that's a very weird place to go, you know? But I think it kind of, it, it, it leads you there, at least in that moment in time where a person's experienced a thing like that, or they experience an abduction. Who knows whether what they're seeing is the true architecture of, of, you know, what's happening. And you can say there are, you know, classic motifs people do see, these gray alien beings do seem to show

• 47:46Speaker 00

  up consistently. You know, these sort of perfectly chiseled Nordics seem to show up, which is really strange, right? The reptilian thing, actually, there, there's some evidence out there that like people experience abductions with these sorts of beings. But I, I mean, I think you're in really weird territory if you start to claim that like, we know that these beings come from this discreet race from this star system. I think you need a lot of evidence for that and I don't think we have it. So like, all I can say is like, We're, we're, yeah, we're probably not at the top of the food chain and there's like something else going on.

• 48:24André Duqum?

  Yeah, or even the conception of a food chain would be hilarious, you know, from the perspective of an interdimensional being.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:31André Duqum?

  I think like.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  They've transcended that.

• 48:34André Duqum?

  Yeah. And that the medium in which a non-human intelligence would traverse would be, like we said, through the way we perceive traversing the cosmos through Newtonian physics, you know. I'm just curious because you, you seem like you really have this balance of empathy and epistemic rigor when it comes to studying all these different abduction stories, for example, which sounds so out there, especially for somebody who's not, never had a transpersonal, subjective experience, like it just sounds like, you know, quacky stuff.

• 49:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:09André Duqum?

  You know, and yet you see, you hear reports from people that seem very level-headed, that seem very sincere.

• 49:17André Duqum?

  You know, it's tough to gauge someone's level of what they're trying to maybe garner from something, but yeah, what, I know you've come across this pretty compelling, you know, stories from, from various different accounts. And so maybe you could like lay out one or two or just like, you know, and in, in doing so, share how you kind of think of having that balance of empathy and the rigor when it comes to that.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a great framing because I think in isolation, like most cases are probably, you can probably corroborate them to the point of being like, there's probably something that happened there. And then I think there'll always be skeptics in any individual case. And I would point people to, there's a Edgar Mitchell was an Apollo astronaut and the Apollo 14 mission. And he came back and he started basically systematically studying this stuff because he thought we were not alone in the universe. And so I'd point people to the free Edgar Mitchell database of abduction cases and they can go through a lot of these cases. And they can talk to a lot of these people themselves. I think it's.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  Probably important if you are somebody who is earnestly interested in the subject to not just take my word for, you know, any of these sorts of stories and to try to meet, you know, experiencers themselves and be like, you know, what happened? Like, and, and go into like, you know, are you sure you're not making that up? And like, be as skeptical as you sort of want. But, I don't know, a couple of really famous cases are you have Travis Walton in the mid seventies. He was in a national park in Arizona and he was actually with a bunch of friends and they were, they were loggers and they had finished their work at the end of the day and they see this weird bright light in the object. They're all in the car and he's still out and-

• 51:07Speaker 00

  In the sky, bright light in the sky? They, they see a bright light in the sky, but then they see it on the forest floor. Okay. And they see it near Travis and Travis then touches the craft and gets blown back. And, um, you know, it, it almost seems to like zap or hurt him where there seems to be this kind of electromagnetic, you know, emission or field around this craft. And the five guys are freaked out. They go back into town. They basically are like, we don't know what to tell you, but this is what happened to this guy. One of the guys had actually been in a fight with Travis that day. And so, you know, he didn't have any incentive to like, say that like, you know, this guy's

• 51:50Speaker 00

  being truthful about like this UFO abduction experience or whatever. They're all like, people are like skeptical also of this guy and a lot of the people because they're like, are like, are you sure like you didn't get into a fight with him? You didn't kill him? You know, they think like they were like murderers at one point. They all take lie detector tests and are like grilled by the local sheriff and stuff. And people are like, okay, maybe something happened. Like, this is actually weird. Like, these guys are like, you know, passing the tests and they seem to be really consistent in their stories. Travis is then found, um, I want to say five days later, but he has like a full grown beard. So it's like, as if like more missing time had occurred and he had been-

• 52:32Speaker 00

  Been basically on this craft with an operating table with both grays and actually Nordics. So you have like, you know, two different kind of alien archetypes involved in his abduction. And yeah, he comes back down and he basically says that they did like surgery on him. And to this day, it's one of the, it's the Fire in the Sky is this famous sort of, you know, documentary that's been done about him. My friend, Chris Ramsey, who is a great, he actually had the biggest magic channel on YouTube before going into UFO stuff. Good crossover there. It's a great crossover because he actually like shows how a lot of the magic's done. And he debunks a lot of magic. So a lot of magicians kind of hate on him because they're

• 53:16Speaker 00

  like, don't show the special sauce or whatever. And so, and he's extremely good when it comes to debunking stagecraft. And in fact, he took me to a magician, a magic conference with like some of his top magician friends, like the guy that like has worked with David Blaine for 20, like these guys are like, to me, they're like literal magicians. And he would consistently be like, no, this is, you know, he wouldn't show me the method because that's like not how, you're not supposed to do that in magic. But he'd basically be like, there's a method here, there's a method there, there's a, you know, and like, he would do that a little too much on his channel. And so he'd get in trouble on that. But he was always kind of a UFO freak. And so that got him into starting Area 52, which is this

• 54:00Speaker 00

  channel. And he, he does this whole deep dive on Travis Wall and then does a long interview with him. And he's just this, one of these guys who's like consistent in his story since that time. He also went on Rogan and, you know, could just continuously sort of tells the same story. And it's, it's one of these archetypal stories where the person is sort of operated on, you know, he's on this sort of, you know, operating table. And it's, it's really strange. It's almost as if, often gametes are collected as well. So like they're like sperm taken or eggs taken. It's almost as if, you know, they're kind of anthropologists or they're zoologists or whatever, and they want like tissue samples or genetic samples and they want to see what's

• 54:42Speaker 00

  Going on, you know, with us. Another case that I love is in 1977 at Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota. So this is another nuclear case. There's a guy named Mario Woods and he is a missile security officer and he's at this launch station, November 5 is what it's called. And I think he's hanging out playing ping pong. Like at a lot of these nuclear bases, like not a lot's going on for like most of the time, like, you know, ideally, right? And so he's like having kind of like a lazy evening and he sees these lights in the sky and he thinks that it's, you know, some sort of stealth bomber, like waving the lights to like say hello. And so he goes out,

• 55:27Speaker 00

  he like waves and he's like, what is that? And he has a partner, you know, it's like some sort of buddy system and his partner's a guy named Michael Johnson. And they go out and they try to like track what's good because the alarm goes off. So it's like something's in their restricted airspace. So he's like, starts to freak out and he's like, maybe this is more serious. And so they, they follow this thing with their truck. They stop the truck. They see basically this like, what he says, he always says it's the size of a Walmart is what he said. So this huge, you know, like, like fireball, this red fireball and he freaks out and he's like, what is this thing?

• 56:07Speaker 00

  He sees four beings which look like little gray aliens walking towards his car. And they're saying over and over again, telepathically, do not fear, do not fear, do not fear. He's completely paralyzed, as is Michael Johnson. And this is, by the way, a common trope, the do not fear and the being paralyzed. And Interesting combo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Don't, don't worry about it. You're, you're just, you're, you're okay. You know, you're paralyzed. You can't move anything, but you can't fend for yourself. Yeah, it is ironic, which is why it can't be taken at face value. You know, it's like, who knows whether they're good or bad. I don't know. But they're saying that he blacks out, he wakes up nine miles away from the base. And he doesn't know what happened and it's,

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Uh, now all of a sudden, the sun's coming up, so it's dawn. And he's freaked out. And it's like, uh, nine miles away from Lake Newell or something, which is like, you know, yeah, it's, it's far from the base. And so he's like, what happened? I don't know what that, this is so weird. He ends up getting checked in what seems to be kind of a routine protocol by the, the base. And they're checking his teeth and they're doing all sorts of tests on him, which imply that they have some sort of familiarity, that this thing happens a lot. And then he retains his clearance and continues working for the DOE for another 20 years, by the way. Has no idea what happened that night. Gets a hypnotic regression, which we should get into as well, because that's how a lot

• 57:34Speaker 00

  of these stories come out, which gets to your question of like, you know, is that a valid form of memory retrieval? Or are you like, gonna make stuff up? I would say it pattern matches to any extremely traumatic experience. Somebody, you know, if somebody experiences child abuse or something like that, often those memories get extremely repressed. It's adaptive for you to repress those memories and they come out in techniques like hypnotic regression. So he ends up getting a hypnotic regression and again, he's on this craft operating table. It's, he calls it a beehive of all these little gray aliens, but they're working for this kind of taller gray alien, which is also a common architecture is you have like

• 58:17Speaker 00

  a taller gray and they seem to have some sort of superiority over these little gray worker bees. And according to a lot of people, kind of in and around the UFO legacy program whistleblowers like David Grush, who've testified before Congress now, they actually say that a lot of these beings are almost like biological androids. Like they're actually more robotic in nature. And so they might not even be conscious. Like, we are now experimenting as a human civilization with programmable biology. Um, you know, there's a great professor at Tufts named Michael Levin, and he talks about the bioelectricity of the body and voltage gated ion channels. And, you know, is the human more of like a malleable computer than we, than we think? And maybe-

• 59:02Speaker 00

  We are a container for a soul or something. I don't know how it works, but I do know we're like looking more into this now. And so if you have this Kharteshv, three or four more advanced civilization than us, maybe they've figured that out in the case of these grays. But that's another crazy case where you meet Mario. I've had him on my show in like just earnest, salt of the earth guy. Zero mental health history before or after extreme level of detail in which he's able to recall the story. Gets mad, actually, if people say the hypnotic regression part was real because he wants to stick to the facts. And again, just part of this, this nuclear architecture where just again, and again, and again, you literally have 170 of these guys.

• 59:47Speaker 00

  And if there are 170 of them who literally they were like subject to the most extreme secrecy protocols. There's probably preference falsification. You're probably talking about thousands. So, yeah.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 1:00:29André Duqum?

  When it comes to actually working with retrieved, proposed retrieved crafts and non-human biologics. What, what was like, what's the most mind blowing thing that, that you learned and talked about in your conversations with him? Because that's a, that to most people is like what would really move the needle in terms of the scientific approach of like, if you have

• 1:00:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:00:55André Duqum?

  An alien being that was apparently worked on and crafts that were retrieved, you know? Nolan's, you know, small samples of.

• 1:01:07André Duqum?

  What exactly were they?

• 1:01:09Speaker 00

  They're like magnesium and bismuth and other pieces that seem to have isotope ratios that don't match asteroids or anything on Earth.

• 1:01:15André Duqum?

  Right. So like that stuff points like for the very skeptical mind, I think into into really verifying it. So just for people that don't know the context with Grush and the non-human biologics.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, totally. So David Grush is this kind of seminal UFO whistleblower because he compiled, he was at the National GOC, he's a 14-year intelligence officer, he was an Afghanistan combat veteran. He handled the presidential daily brief. So what the president like reads as far as his, you know, vantage point for what's happening in the world, David Grush was the kind of, you know, courier slash, you know, like probably part-time editor of like, you know, what's going on, you know, with that, which I think is, you know, should add credibility. Everybody who has, you know, come out, who was a former colleague of his, says he's like beyond reproach and he has level one autism and has like literally like an autistic

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  level of detail when it comes to all of this stuff. In fact, he gave the intelligence community inspector general, Thomas Monheim, hundreds of pages about these reverse engineering programs in front of Congress. You hear, you know, AOC literally asking him, grilling him, saying, do you have the addresses of these warehouses where these UFOs are being kept? And he goes, yeah, get me into a SKIF, which is a secure compartmentalized information facility where you can, you know, basically give classified information. It's basically a Faraday cage. And he's like, just put me in there and I'll tell you, you know? And so this is this extremely frustrating thing for me too, because I don't like, you

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  know, he's a friend of mine and I like, I want to take him at face value. I do think extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So I think you have to rank the like, you know. Hundreds of nuclear whistleblowers of like something phenomenologically in our airspace being real, probably above the idea that we have literal reverse engineering programs because of the amount of data we have on one versus the other. But like, what frustrates me so much is like, if you're in the government, like, can you collapse this into a reality? Like, get the pages that were given to the IC Inspector General and review them.

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  And, you know, I've met with some people in and around the current admin, and like, I'm like, tell, I'm like, because, and they talk about the UFO stuff casually, like, they kind of know that there's, they're there. And I'm like, get your hands on those pages and figure, like, I can't, I don't have a security clearance. So, I'd be happy to know either way, you know? Like, I really, like, we really should just follow the truth wherever it leads us. But I do think you have a guy who's, it's kind of hard to argue with his credentials, and he's providing tons and tons of pages of documents. So like, let's go to the documents and like, figure out, like, what's going on. And then, you mentioned, and then you have stories that comport with that.

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

  So you have like Bob Lazar, for example, who I mentioned, where we know he worked at Los Alamos, which was, you know, that was a question initially when he came out. I think it's clear he worked at Area 51. He, you know, talks about Janet Airlines and Area 51. Area 51 wasn't a thing before Bob Lazar, so he knew details around its existence that, you know, other people didn't seem to know. I think he met with Edward Teller, who was the, you know, creator of the H-bomb, who was probably implicated in a lot of these kind of spooky science programs. And so, his story is really fascinating, and again, it's one of these stories where you could change a detail. The final Jenga block would be, okay, we have our own anti-gravity crafts, versus,

• 1:05:02Speaker 00

  and you're doing tech protection by calling it alien. Like, okay, I'm open to that, and I'm very deep on like, anti-gravity stuff too, which I view as a hedge, because one of them's got to be right, you know? And so, again, it's one of those things where like, I'm, I'm, I'm open to the, the other thing being right, but he seems to continually be corroborated over time as people sort of, you know, question him. I have a friend who's making a documentary on him called Project Gravitar, and I think he's uncovered some pretty good evidence that S4, which is the specific area on Area 51 that really nobody knew about before Bob Lazar exists, and that it's this underground facility there. So, yeah, I think you have a few stories, and then you have David Grush, who I think is pretty beyond reproach. And then the thing

• 1:05:47Speaker 00

  you mentioned, Gary Nolan, he's a Stanford microbiologist, you know, he's a really, you know, well acclaimed kind of professor, tenured there. And he works with Jacques Vallée, who I've mentioned earlier, who's this French godfather of ufology. He's actually depicted by Francois Truffaut, or he's, uh, he's, he's played by Francois Truffaut in Steven Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And he's this very interesting kind of almost mystical figure in UFO research. And he gets, he publishes his address online. So when people, you know, see crashes, they'll literally send the material to him. He'll send that material to Gary Nolan to do material analysis and mass spectrometry on them. And

• 1:06:30Speaker 00

  Gary Nolan does mass spectrometry on one of these crashes, which I believe crashed over the beach in Ubatuba in Brazil. And he goes, you know, I, these contain isotope ratios that don't naturally exist on Earth. They don't naturally, they're not manmade, like, I don't know what the hell, or they could be manmade, but they, you require, you would need centrifuge access and like, a lot of money to do that. I think, I think the crash occurred in like, the 50s or 60s. So you'd need like, a crazy scientific level of access. And then the question is, why? Like, what, what do you, you're like, exploding a thing that you centrifuged the like, isotope ratios on above the beach in Brazil? Like,

• 1:07:10Speaker 00

  doesn't make sense. So, yeah, but then it's always one of those things where it's like, you know, until people see like, a full-scale craft, I think they'll be skeptical, and they have the right to be skeptical. And I think the, the thing they should be asking for is like, let's collapse it, give you like, you know, like a wave function in quantum mechanics, like, let's, let's, let's collapse the wave function. You know, we have this probability distribution of the UFO thing. Like, if you're the current administration, look into David Grush's documents.

• 1:07:41André Duqum?

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• 1:08:57André Duqum?

  It opens up deeper into the rabbit hole of observing this time around the Manhattan Project, how physics might have quietly forked one into nukes and computation and another one less potentially known into spacetime and gravity. And so, what, because I know you love this topic and it's, and it's a, I love how you refer to it as a hedge. But it's a, it's a fairly promising one when you look into the electrophysics and Townsend Brown. And so, kind of just a high level overview for people that don't know what could have potentially been happening at that time that could have led to where we are now.

• 1:09:37Speaker 00

  Yes. So I think some of the most interesting and fruitful places to look for the next paradigm of science are going down the tree trunk of science and finding another branch. And so, like, look to see- Where we went wrong. And I think where we went wrong, in my personal opinion, is string theory and quantum gravity. And it's this idea that we can't. So if you have two imperfect maps in the form of general relativity and quantum field theory, the idea that those are not abstractions and heuristics on reality and that their reality into onto themselves, and we can force fit those maps, which are probably jagged and not one to one correlations

• 1:10:19Speaker 00

  with actual reality, is to me, the epitome of human hubris. And there's a great, actually, science writer and physicist, and she has a great YouTube channel, and her name is Sabina Hossenfelder. And she wrote a great book called Lost in Math. And it's about how physics today is lost in these abstractions, where we're talking about ridiculous numbers of dimensions. But then you can't, you can't do anything with it. You can't do anything with string theory. And so I think the two, again, if you go down the tree trunk, find different branches, I think the two branches, which are fruitful and interesting, would be, one, the creation of quantum mechanics and parapsychology, and the idea that the mind might have something

• 1:11:02Speaker 00

  to do with wave function collapse, which all of the godfathers of quantum mechanics flirted with, all of them did. And so you can talk to like, the modern kind of priestly citadel of quantum mechanics people, like Sean Carroll, and they'll say that's ridiculous. But it's literally an unfalsifiable claim on both sides. It's a hypothesis that your mind doesn't, you know, collapse the wave function, and it's a hypothesis that it does. And, you know, the idea that superposition of what you're measuring doesn't exist in the detector, and then your mind is collapsing that, it's impossible to prove either way. So that's really interesting. And then what you're getting at is, I think, fascinating, which So if you look at what created string theory,

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  which is basically the need for us to quantize gravity. So we can reconcile the strong force, the weak force, and electromagnetism on a quantum scale. We cannot reconcile gravity. So you have macroscopic reality, which is like me, you, spacetime, celestial bodies. And that is general relativity, which is essentially a theory of gravity. And then you have quantum mechanics. And the two just don't line up. And what we've been trying to do since 1957, you have University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, Institute of Field Physics, basically convening all of the world's top physicists. And it was, you know, Richard Feynman,

• 1:12:28Speaker 00

  John Wheeler, Peter Bergman, Freeman Dyson, like guys who, in conventional physics, you would say are like, you know, the godfathers of like what we are swimming in today academically. And they're all meeting about, you know, how can you reconcile gravity in the quantum? Like, how do we sort of figure this out? And at the time, general relativity was actually seen as kind of a novel curiosity. And then it became like much more of like, you know, it became much more of like the dominant paradigm kind of after this. And this need to quantize gravity was kind of popularized at this conference. Like, that became kind of the mandate of physics at the time.

• 1:13:13Speaker 00

  Now, here's where things get really trippy, really interesting. The guy who is convening that whole thing, who is the patron of the Institute of Field Physics at the University of North Carolina, was a guy named Agnew Bonson. And the president of the University of North Carolina at the time was a guy named Gordon Gray. Gordon Gray oversaw the kangaroo courts, which stripped Oppenheimer of his Q clearance. He was an extreme intel insider and very high up, not only at the CIA, but a part of, at the time, what was called the 5412 Commission, which is basically this inter-agency coordination group, which you could call kind of like, I think they ended up being Somewhat responsible for the death of JFK indirectly like this like breakaway like intel

• 1:13:57Speaker 00

  organization, which initially was so the president could gain plausible deniability on doing things that might not be the best look for him, probably domestically. And I think it turned into this runaway kind of continuity of government group. But so Gordon Gray is literally president of UNC at that time, you know, North Carolina. And then Agnew Bonson, who literally wrote a science fiction book called The Stars Are Too High about manmade UFOs, right before he died in a freak plane accident, is overseeing all of these top physicists, and they are looking into gravity. It's a conference on gravity. And Lewis Witten and a lot of, you know, Lewis Witten, who's the father of the greatest string theorist of our

• 1:14:39Speaker 00

  time, Ed Witten, who worked at Martin Corporation's like secret anti-gravity outfit is there this, you know, and so, and he, if you email him to this day, he goes, I can't talk about anti-gravity or whatever, like he'll freak out about that. And then what's really crazy is in the back room, while this is going on, while we're trying to figure out theoretically what's happening with gravity, and by the way, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Wright Airfield, which is center of all the UFO lore, they're also, they have a theoretical physics group looking into anti-gravity. This whole era in the 50s is obsessed with anti-gravity. While they're theoretically looking at it, you have Agnew Bonson, the Institute of Field Physics, North Carolina,

• 1:15:18Speaker 00

  the same exact group funding this guy named Townsend Brown, doing experiments around anti-gravity. And you have video of Townsend Brown in the lab popping champagne ostensibly because he got a positive result around these anti-gravity experiments. And a year before that, you have him doing similar experiments in a vacuum chamber at the, in the, called, it was called the Montgolfier Project in 1956. And you have a French technical representative named Jacques Corneille, we have him on audio on his deathbed, saying that the experiments worked. And you have Agnew Bonson himself saying, very weird things happen.

• 1:16:02Speaker 00

  At high megavolts across short distances. And what he's talking about is essentially Townsend Brown's work. That was what he did was these capacitor experiments, high voltage, low current, short distances. And so you have this, you get into these, and then, I mean, you go, you go on for, for so long about this. Like, the current electrostatics lead scientist at NASA, or the guy that just left. He was the electrostatics lead at NASA for decades. His name is Charles Bueller, just left to start a propellantless propulsion program, a company called Exodus Space. And he claims that it's based on Townsend Brown's work.

• 1:16:44Speaker 00

  So you have all this, like, smoke after that, you know, in the 50s, that Townsend Brown's stuff probably worked. So then you get into this, like, really interesting philosophical, you know, kind of a question of, was physics, was public physics sent into a cul-de-sac and sent down the wrong path, either intentionally, or emergently, or unintentionally? I'm definitely not smart enough on the physics to say that, like, we were given a 2D, container padded walls version of physics, that, or if that's even possible. Can you, like, psy-op the physics community in such a coordinated way? Like, that might be beyond belief for me, so I don't know how this happened.

• 1:17:29André Duqum?

  Something that we could continue to make progress in that wouldn't bear fruits potentially.

• 1:17:33Speaker 00

  Yes. Did that happen intentionally, or was it unintentional? I don't know. There's a guy named Eric Weinstein, who talks about it a little more as if it happened intentionally and was seeded. And he can speak in these more high-level theoretical physics terms. And, you know, I'm friends with him and I love him, but like, I don't want to make that claim. I do want to make the, I think, still pretty bold claim that, like, private vital physics went behind the iron curtain of secrecy and classification. And It's kind of crazy to say that it didn't. Like, of course, in a world of, you know, the atomic era, Cold War era stuff,

• 1:18:15Speaker 00

  where you have Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, you know, getting tried for stealing, you know, you know, a secret, you have the Red Scare, you know, stealing atomic secrets. You have Klaus Fuchs. The whole reason the Soviets had their atomic program is because for nine years, he was giving them nuclear trade secrets. You have all these, you know, kangaroo courts around, Oppenheimer was stripped of his Q clearance because of this stuff. Of course, you're gonna get secret science and you're gonna get public science, especially in the world of, you know, where science is getting more and more dangerous as an art form, you know, like, you split an atom, like, you get in a pretty destructive territory, you get into weird modalities, and you get, I mean, you can get into other,

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  the whole other conversation is how splitting an atom and doing, you know, nuclear, controlled nuclear fusion might be actually threatening to the establishment in other ways. And, again, there are plenty of, I don't wanna play that role, because there are plenty of people in the UFO community who are like, sure, we're like hiding, you know, free energy machines that will like, you know, allow us to like, live on clean energy and like, get rid of, you know, you know, petrol gas forever. And like, I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is, you have this really interesting experiment in the, in the 50s around, which is essentially what would get us to interstellar travel. I don't think even conventional physicists, even conventional aerospace people, would

• 1:19:39Speaker 00

  all admit that Elon Musk's SpaceX stuff is like, it's a recruiting tactic. Like, we are not going interstellar, maybe we can colonize Mars. I do think it's an amazing company, like, he resuscitated what NASA was doing single-handedly, by literally like, traveling to Russia and like, looking into their like, liquid-fueled rockets, like, amazing. But, you can't go interstellar, like, literally, like, do the math, it doesn't work. So, I think some of that tech got locked up. And now, is what we're seeing and is this modern UFO craze just anti-gravity stuff? I don't know. Is it the NHI stuff? I'm not sure. Is it consciousness? I don't know, but...

• 1:20:19Speaker 00

  I think if you stay at the forefront of all three of those things, I think it's like, it's hard to go wrong.

• 1:20:25André Duqum?

  It's wild, man. So the, the potentially forking of physics into this behind the closed door exploration of electroggravitics and anti-gravity, where if that was the case, who is, who do you think is like likely pioneering, protecting this sort of physics science crafts? And where would they be like located?

• 1:20:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:54André Duqum?

  You know?

• 1:20:54Speaker 00

  I think the Department of Energy. If you look at our most frontier weapons testing, it is the Department of Energy. This is something that's a constant source of frustration with me because I've had pretty high up people like in government say like, you've figured out this crazy thing. Like there's probably a there there or whatever. I'm like, then what is going on? Because like, there's, there's one line in the biography of Townsend Brown, who's this, it's this amazing book called The Manual Master Gravity by a guy named Paul Shatskin. And he's this just extremely enigmatic, interesting guy. He literally parachutes

• 1:21:38Speaker 00

  in behind enemy lines to Nazi Germany to retrieve some tech at the end of the war. He's close friends with William Stevenson and confidants with William Stevenson, who is Winston, he's Winston Churchill's super spy. He's the inspiration for Ian Fleming's James Bond. And he basically, you know, is in charge of the MI6 and helps form the CIA with Wild Bill Donovan in the US. So like spooky, interesting figures. And, you know, Townsend Brown is dealing with Curtis LeMay, who's Chief of Staff of the American Air Force. He's dealing with all, he shows up at, at Martin Corporation, the year that Skunk Works starts. So Martin Corporation is pre-Lockheed Martin, what everybody knows

• 1:22:21Speaker 00

  today as our, you know, one of our biggest defense contractors, responsible for all our stealth craft. And the year that Skunk Works, their most secretive R and D division forms, he happens to start working there, which is really interesting. He's like this like Zelig or Forrest Gump character in mid-century American politics and military and science, where you're like, what is your deal? Like, and?

• 1:22:46Speaker 00

  I think that, you know, if you look at, again, what we were talking about with the Atomic Energy Commission and, you know, special definition of nuclear material where if there's anything radiological, it gets sort of born secret. National labs are often placed around these nuclear sites, kind of strategically. Where would you be working on the most frontier weapons science? It would be next to nuclear assets. Makes sense, right? You'd just co-locate them. You have like a lot of secrecy around both. You create these sort of complexes where you have, you know, nuclear and you have that sort of stuff going on. And so my suspicion would be that it would be DOE related. And there's a, there's a line in that book about Townsend Brown, which freaks me out.

• 1:23:31Speaker 00

  And it's like, this makes an H-bomb look like a child's firecracker. And that's freaky. And so my question, when I'm in rooms with, you know, often, often it's gaslighting. Occasionally, it's like, you know, with these sort of higher up people, it's like, yeah, you know, there's a there there on the Townsend Brown stuff. And I'm like, okay, well, do we have a framework? Like, if we're at parity with China on this sort of stuff and Russia on this sort of stuff, it's a tragedy that this isn't being used on civil side infrastructure. We're in LA right now. If you look at LA and you were to flashback 40 years, it's the same LA. It's the same exact infrastructure.

• 1:24:14Speaker 00

  Like, the world of the Jetsons did not come to fruition, right? So you're telling me that we have something where, you know, an experiment where electromagnetism is the input and some sort of gravitational perturbation or propulsion is the output? And that's, we're just sitting on that? Okay, like, maybe it makes sense if you have the extreme dual-use implications of, you know, turning the H-bomb into the child's firecracker. Like, I would stop talking about it tomorrow if I knew that were the case. And in a lot of cases, you know, that's what science is. Like, you think about nuclear fusion, controlled nuclear fusion could lead to free energy, but it's also the H-bomb when it's uncontrolled.

• 1:24:53Speaker 00

  So often, technology serves as this weird dual-use forcing function for civilization to kind of, you know, up its game consciousness-wise or whatever. So my, my guess would be, it's a long-winded way of saying, my guess would be, it would be, you know, DOE and national labs. And then my big issue on the whole thing is like... I don't know if, I think, part of me thinks the lights are on, but nobody's home. Like, and we don't have a framework where it's like, if Russia and China are at parity with the US on this stuff, we need to roll it out and we need to use it in our cities and make the world a better place and just like admit that this stuff is real.

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  And then if they're not, you know, maybe there's some, you know, extreme reason for secrecy. What's weird is I feel like I'm living in the Truman Show sometimes because like, I truly, truly, like, I don't think I'm an idiot and like, I feel like I've like amassed a lot of like evidence on this stuff.

• 1:25:53André Duqum?

  That's evidence.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  Thank you, man. I mean, I don't know, I could just have a bunch of crazy useless facts, but, but, but it's just weird. I feel like, I feel like I get back like, you know, you like poke the bear with statements like this and I don't know whether it's like, maybe it's held in private hands and so the private hands don't have these sort of frameworks that they adhere to. And because a lot of, the DOE is entangled and DOD is entangled with a lot of these contractors. The contractors often are like, act like these fiefdoms where they make these like experimental updates and then they become these, I mean, if you think about like tech is kind of your power and your leverage and so they, they then like turn into these like

• 1:26:39Speaker 00

  runaway, like escape from civilian bureaucracy oversight groups. And so like, does this exist in that sort of, you know, capacity? I don't know. I don't have a good answer, but it's, it's very strange and it's very strange when you get to a certain level of conviction on it because it's, I'm like, what's going on? Like, is somebody gonna contact me? And then, and then, and then you do occasionally get higher, like literally the guy, this guy who ran a $2 billion P and L, an executive at Northrop Grumman, who's responsible for the B2, you know, bomber, where I make this argument that Townsend Brown's not anti-gravity work, but his other work made it into the B2 stealth bomber.

• 1:27:22Speaker 00

  He went on my show and he's like, I'm like, I basically was to a crowd full of like tech people. I'm like, you know, the UFO subject is frustratingly kind of hard, you know, it's not really actionable, like per the beginning of our conversation. And I'm like, is there any place you would look at to like invest in technology? And he goes, watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown. And so you have this guy, he's like an exec at Northrop, hinting that this stuff is real. And then I'm like, okay, if this is real, it like, could take us to the stars in a way that like SpaceX can't. And yet, like, I don't know, nobody, like, maybe it's because like the thumbnails on my YouTube channel look kind of ridiculous because like, that's how you like have to bootstrap your distribution online. I don't know.

• 1:28:04Speaker 00

  Seriously, I don't know, but I'd love for there to be more progress made on this.

• 1:28:10André Duqum?

  Yeah. Man, it's so fascinating and it definitely is a interesting rabbit hole to dive down. It also still leaves a lot of room for explanation in terms of the variants of ET species and abduction stories and psi phenomena and these craps moving through intention. And, and so I want to start diving a bit down, down that side of things now because I know your fascination with Diana Pusalka's work kind of, and in your also understanding of Thomas Aquinas's taxonomy of angels sort of reframes extraterrestrial life in a completely different way.

• 1:28:53André Duqum?

  Like that they are not potentially beings from another star system that traveled here in the way that we think they would, but that are potentially interdimensional and that interact with consciousness in a way that we like a monkey trying to understand quantum, you know, mechanics could potentially understand. It's way beyond our level of comprehension. And so let's start, how would you set the framework for, you know, that sort of theory of consciousness?

• 1:29:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think looking to religion, kind of apocryphal ancient stories can be really illustrative of what is possibly going on today. You mentioned Diana Pasulka. She's a great Religious Studies professor at UNC Wilmington, and she wasn't into this stuff at all. She was like a Catholic Studies professor, and she wrote a book on the Catholic concept of purgatory. And then she started to look into basically experiences that brothers, nuns, saints, you know, people at monasteries across history had with what they would describe as angels, or Jesus, or the Virgin Mary, their Virgin Mary apparitions across, you

• 1:30:05Speaker 00

  know, Catholic history, obviously. And she looked into them, and she would often look into the like, original Greek translations, like, the archetypal example is actually, you have Saint Francis of Assisi in 13th century Italy on Mount Laverne, and he's this, one of these really interesting figures, kind of similar to like, Saint Augustine, where he starts out struggling with faith, and kind of like a life of the party sort of guy. And he has this really interesting experience at the top of this, this mountain, and he's with Brother Leo, this confidant, who's kind of documenting this whole experience, and essentially sees, and she does the original translation in Greek, and, or I think it's

• 1:30:48Speaker 00

  in Latin, sorry, and it's a flaming torch. And he receives what he says, you know, this wound in the flesh, and it's the stigmata. But then she looks at it, and she's like, "Well, he died a year later from the stigmata," and actually, the stigmata looks a lot more like just electromagnetic burns. And so she gives this manuscript of stories like, you know, Saint Francis of Assisi's to her friend. And her friend goes, "This reads like a Steven Spielberg script." Like, this is not, this looks exactly like what UFO stories are today. And she looks into the work of John Mack at Harvard, and she's like, "Oh, my God." Like, if you one-to-one replace angel with alien, or demon with alien,

• 1:31:29Speaker 00

  you know, or, you know, in certain cases, Jesus, or angels with, with aliens, it seems very similar. The Ecstasy of Saint Teresa is another example, like, over and over and over again. And so, American Cosmic is her book, which is, it's an amazing book, because...

• 1:31:47Speaker 00

  You see the first half of her book being like the UFO that she's writing about it in this kind of meta sociological, like as a professor would way, where she's like, this is kind of a modern psychosocial phenomena. And it's kind of crafted in like a Disney studio or whatever. And she even talks about Betty and Barney Hill being abducted in 1961. She talks about how this CBS show Outer Limits depicts aliens with eyes being wrapped around their head, just like they are seeing. And so she's like, basically saying, maybe our perceptions are being shaded by media. And so I'm reading this book and I'm like, this is very well reasoned. You know, this is like this, this woman, she's going to debunk, she's going to explain this whole thing.

• 1:32:30Speaker 00

  And then you see her fall into this belief system where she's like, oh my God, what I've been looking at for the, you know, not only Catholic stuff, but the Hebrew Merkabah tradition, you know, the Ezekiel, Ezekiel's chariots and that sort of thing. A lot of this stuff just comports with modern UFO lore. And maybe religion is this ongoing process today. And I think for a lot of people, that's somehow subversive of religion, like don't smear religion with your, you know, alien stories, sort of thing. I would say it's reinforcing of religion and I wouldn't call the current thing alien. I would just call the current thing an empirical observable, like you can actually remerge science

• 1:33:15Speaker 00

  and the spirit, which bifurcated around the Enlightenment, where you had Newton, who was like an alchemist. And then you end up with like David Hume, who's like this natural philosopher. And now you have Richard Dawkins, who's like, it's like ardent shrill atheist. I think you could remerge those things if you have this empirical observable phenomena where you're like, these are happening at nuclear sites and they comport with things happening in the Bible. Like, oh my God, that's crazy. So I love her work on that. And she's really an air to Jacques Vallée, who writes about this whole thing as like, he actually was writing originally around like kind of.

• 1:33:55Speaker 00

  New psychological thought was kind of this burgeoning field where you had people like Zimbardo and you'd use behavioral psychologists, guys like B.F. Skinner and intermittent reinforcement. And so you get this idea of like, if you give, you know, a rat like an irregular drip of a thing, they're more likely to become like rapidly chasing the drip than they are if it's like this regular thing. And that's how Jacques Vallée discusses the phenomena. You're like, you're always chasing this thing that never, you never quite grasp. And it's this, it's almost like this control system, which is using these intermittent reinforcement

• 1:34:38Speaker 00

  techniques and synchronicities, which we now know synchronicities do create dopamine, which leads you through life in this like specific way that you were, you know, maybe, maybe you were supposed to lead or whatever. And so again, it brings this whole new cut on the UFO story, which I do think becomes a little more personable and actionable than like, you know, crafts that, you know, have anti-gravity or whatever.

• 1:35:04André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 1:35:35André Duqum?

  But before we dive deeper in there, could you lay out the different, like, what is the history of the grays, for example, versus the nordics, versus reptilians, versus, and what is the correlation between what is perhaps, because their brain is very much so a prediction machine, and what is being entrained from media versus vice versa?

• 1:35:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the outer limits thing is interesting. And sometimes I wonder, I mean, if this is all shadow play, if, you know, if you take the Don Hoffman thing at face value, which I'm not saying that's necessarily true, but say it is. And so you have some sort of higher platonic reality and like a lower reality. In that kind of worldview, you'd have like guardians, which are, you're seeing this sort of, you know, the shadows on the wall, you're seeing the simulacra of the objects. You're not seeing the objects themselves. And then you get into this thing where you have these memes in your head. And who, and like, how do you gain a meme library?

• 1:36:42Speaker 00

  Like, what is that? How does that occur? And is that, are those meme libraries just based on organic things that you're seeing in reality through life? Or are they shaded by media, you know, itself? And clearly, it's somewhat shaded by media. You know, again, I think if you, if you get into, you know, like, the extreme extrapolation of this would be that we are living in some low-level simulation, and there is a guardian class that is literally managing the abduction cases themselves as far as our low-level perception or recollection of what occurs. And like, you have to entertain that. Like, I don't know. You know? That's really nutty territory. As far as the history of the grays,

• 1:37:25Speaker 00

  you know, the kind of really premier, you know, prime example of an abduction experience is the Betty and Barney Hill. There is September of 1961, they're in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and they were on their way, actually, a road trip to Niagara Falls. And they, they're an interracial couple, you know, normal, cool people. And they were, I think, at a diner. And they were, they were driving away from the diner, and they, they see these, this light in the sky, and they're like, what the hell is that? And, you know, it seems like Betty is more afraid, and Barney is more attracted to like, whatever this

• 1:38:06Speaker 00

  thing is. And they start, they drive after it. And eventually, they come to a certain stop, and they see it. It lands. Beings seem to come out. And I should say, by the way, again, it's one of those cases where they have missing, they have missing time. And I believe Betty has like, marks. On her dress or whatever that she comes back with and doesn't know what happens. And then a lot of the actual recollection of, you know, the core experience comes out in hypnotic regression. But I think that is really when grays were introduced into the zeitgeist was was probably 1961. But again, it's this weird thing where Outer Limits is also playing around that time. So around that time, I think is when, you know, great grays were introduced.

• 1:38:51Speaker 00

  Nordics, it's tough. I mean, you could go back to like the Theosophical Society of like, you know, late 19th century. Well, you know, I'll revise my gray thing like Aleister Crowley, who's like a very dark figure. Talk about Left Hand Path, you know, part of the O T O in Pasadena and L A. Like he drew this figure he called Lamb, which looks kind of like a gray alien. And, you know, he claims he like summoned this thing that came from like a portal. It's probably demonic knowing him or whatever. And so like, maybe he's kind of the the original gray guy. You could say actually, you know, connected to Aleister Crowley.

• 1:39:28Speaker 00

  Jack Parsons has an experience. Jack Parsons is the is basically like the godfather of American rocketry. He founds J P L. And he and he would he would do these tests, these rocketry tests in the Mojave Desert. And he was they were known as the Suicide Squad and he ended up blowing himself up. The, you know, crazy, interesting, mad scientists in American history. And there's a great book called Strange Angel about him that I recommend everybody, everybody read. But he sees this like Nordic Nordic looking being in the desert. And it's almost, and I think he says that she's from the planet Venus. And so that's like one of the first kind of archetypal like Nordic experiences.

• 1:40:10Speaker 00

  But you have going back to the Theosophical and anthroposophical kind of, you know, root races and civilizations. You have this idea of the hyperboreans or whatever, these sort of like conscientious towards the earth beings that were, you know, part of some destroyed cycle. And they they're the first root races, the hyperboreans. So it's hard to really trace like the kind of origin point of a lot of these things. I think they're archetypal and sort of. A Jungian sense and exist across civilizations and across societies in the human psyche. You know, even like reptilians, you could really go back to like, you know, ancient Hinduism and, you know, battles in the sky or whatever.

• 1:40:53Speaker 00

  And then there are definitely modern instantiation. So it's really hard to kind of pinpoint, but yeah. Where they were seated and are they being reinforced by culture? Clearly they're being reinforced reinforced by culture, but is there some objective reality to them too? Probably, you know? It's, I think it's like a lot of reality itself where it's the interplay between kind of preconceived notions and thoughts and then the thing itself. There's something like, there's some middle path between extreme materialist reductionism. And, you know, we are a happy accident. You, Andre, are, you know, just a bunch of atoms that bounced off of one another in a way that emerged into you. Like, that's crazy to me.

• 1:41:36Speaker 00

  And then, but then the other side is like, everything is like, drenched in meaning and there's some middle path. And I don't quite know what the answer is, but.

• 1:41:47André Duqum?

  I was hoping you could enlighten us.

• 1:41:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:50André Duqum?

  Well, no, man, it's.

• 1:41:51Speaker 00

  One of your other guests who is far superior than I is like a spiritual thinker will be able to do that.

• 1:41:58André Duqum?

  You are in a weight class of your own, man. I feel like you're crushing it. Your recall of information is absolutely astounding. And I just love how passionate you are about all of this too, man. It makes it so lively and engaging to talk about. Now, there's a couple of different avenues here. There's one, which is like sort of the Hoffman understanding of the headset analogy, how we do not see our brains through the cameras of our eyes, do not see reality in the way that we historically have thought neurologically. Rather, our brains are prediction machines. There are, there's this great book, The Experience Machine by Andy Clark, who kind of elucidates this a bit. How our brains co-create reality.

• 1:42:39André Duqum?

  We literally predict and guess in our brains and then kind of meet halfway from the sensory input. And it's fascinating because.

• 1:42:50André Duqum?

  There's this quote, I think I saw in one of your videos, about how the eyes only see what the mind is ready to comprehend.

• 1:42:56Speaker 00

  Yes, on Rebrick's own.

• 1:42:58André Duqum?

  And in many ways, perception, like, we can only perceive certain things to a degree our nervous system will allow or make space for. And so from the, from within the headset, the analogy of like, our perception is very limited. Aldous Huxley's reducing valve analogy of our brain being able to kind of look through reality as if it's like through a straw. So we're not overwhelmed by the amount of energy and stimulus that's possibly available to us. There are countless millions of bits of information floating around us, very few of which we actually have conscious perception of in any given moment. So, reality is way more vast than we can perceive in any given moment. We know that.

• 1:43:39André Duqum?

  And we also understand that there, that this third dimensional reality that we are very plugged into and enchanted by is only one of many modes of reality. And so, when you go into the subjective transpersonal experiences, that people have these noetic experiences, experiences of different alien beings, contact with the Galactic Federations and these blue tall beings and the gray beings and all these things, it kind of opens up this just exploration of communication through consciousness and psi phenomena that is not, not explored previously through the Newtonian model.

• 1:44:23André Duqum?

  So, I know I just opened up a lot there, but, but when you've, you know, done your, your research and conversations with Diana and you look at the sort of mapping of these angelic beings, what is your current understanding of potentially understanding extraterrestrial life through this sort of interdimensional lens?

• 1:44:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, such a great question. So, I think, you, you just did an amazing interview with Kai Dickens. We both did interviews with her, and the telepathy tapes. You have this phenomena of these nonverbal, often autistic children, who are often disembodied. And so, it's this interesting thing where because they're disembodied, if you think of the body as only adaptive, it's only going to give you more information by being in it, then they're at this crazy disadvantage.

• 1:45:16Speaker 00

  But if you think of the body as actually a prism, or a compression function on a default state of greater omniscience, then you take your hands out of the, you know, the, the, the machine, you take your, your, your head out of the virtual reality headset, and you know more. And with the leaving of one sense, you gain another. And Aldous Huxley, who talks about transmission theory of consciousness, ala William James, himself actually went blind at the end of his life and talks about this in this really, you know, beautiful kind of articulate way. If you look at ancient mystery rituals, like the Eleusinian mystery rituals, you know, so you have Socrates, if he existed, Plato, you know, Aristotle, even Marcus Aurelius,

• 1:46:00Speaker 00

  going to Eleusis, this place northwest of Athens, to essentially drink this kekeon drink and experience this temporary death of the physical body. You would think that that wouldn't be valuable at all in the world where the body is only, the only way to gain productive information. But what they would always say is they experience, you use the word noetic, they experience noesis, which is the Greek, you know, primordial knowledge of the soul. And so there's this idea where if you kill the, the physical, like if the body is a compression function on a default state of greater omniscience, if you temporarily suspend the senses and actually kill the body temporarily,

• 1:46:45Speaker 00

  are you given greater knowledge and greater access? And whether you're studying near-death experiences or, you know, a lot of, you know, people in like the early, like, you know, Stargate program, Psychic Spy program, and like, you know, which is the CIA studied psychic spies, which is pretty crazy, or just anecdotal information from Monroe or from, you know, the telepathy tapes. The idea of being disembodied can actually be an advantage. And that really is a Platonic model of epistemology because the senses in Plato's dialogues are all, they're misleading, you know, that like this, this world is elusive, but it's, or it's alluring, rather.

• 1:47:26Speaker 00

  But it's really leading you, you know, towards this, this, this false thing that you're seeing the shadow play. And actually going towards the light, which is true knowledge is, you know, is how you become sort of enlightened.

• 1:47:37André Duqum?

  Which refers to reality as an illusion and a necessity, like to be able to have the experience of oneness differentiating in self and other. To have the illusion of separation allows us to interact with each other in a sense. And then, but you're, you're referring to when one's hardware, so to speak, is damaged, you get more easily access into the non-physical aspect of reality.

• 1:47:59Speaker 00

  Exactly. And it's, you can, a lot of, I'm sure the people you have on your show are like, you know, like, like Rumi, you know, through the wound comes the light. Well, what is the wound? It's like a wound on a physical, your physical body, like, and that often is the case with people where they'll experience some trauma. And often it's literally embodied trauma. You could read like, you know, what is it? The body keeps the score or whatever. You know, and you, you end up with these like, this embodied information and that ends up, you know, you fulfill your karmic cycle by like healing that thing. And so, um, yeah, I think our model of epistemology is probably backwards and

• 1:48:40Speaker 00

  the body and the brain are not productive, they're reductive. You know, one of my favorite Marshall McLuhan quotes is every media extension of is, every media extension of man is an amputation. And it's this idea that like, we are actually, when we, you know, extend ourselves with Neuralink or virtual reality, we are porting ourselves into a low, a lower level prism. And there's this idea of the fall of man and our, you know, if you do have any sort of soul state, maybe this itself is sort of technology. You know, to go through the game of life and learn karma or whatever it is. Like, I don't know what the purpose of life is, but.

• 1:49:18André Duqum?

  That's just a really important note there because you do see this sort of.

• 1:49:23André Duqum?

  Bifurcation of transhumanist agenda versus or the humanist understanding the ancient intelligence, so to speak, as opposed to the artificial intelligence that is on the rise. That if that's true, that every media is an extension of man as an amputation, then we are clearly societally moving down this route of AGI. And what does that mean about losing and atrophying these inherent telepathic, perhaps, side phenomena? Just these, the, the technology of the human mind. Once we're not using it, you know? So it's just an interesting thing to be able to be aware of.

• 1:50:00Speaker 00

  Yes. And I think it's a huge fallacy of Silicon Valley to say, you know, oh, you can't beat them, join them with the AI and not realizing we might. It's this weird thing, especially with like Elon Musk, where it's a literal logic, logical fallacy, because he says we're in a simulation now. So why wouldn't you, A, think about who's simulating us? Like, who are the simulators? Like, you're dogmatically opposed to aliens, apparently, but like, you think we're in a simulation. And B, why would you try to port yourself into a lower level simulation? Like, that shouldn't be the logical conclusion. And I think if you, if you do this interesting thought experiment, too, where, think about technology as a forcing function, where,

• 1:50:41Speaker 00

  take the fusion example, where, you know, you have literally an H-bomb that could like destroy the world and technological costs are reducing exponentially over time. So like, eventually, you're going to get into a society where maybe a kid from his bedroom can blow up the world. Like, that's crazy and scary. And then you also have, you know, controlled fusion and free energy or whatever, you have like dramatic reduction in energy costs and like a lot of abundance. So you have this inherent bizarre forcing function where

• 1:51:13Speaker 00

  Almost inherently, like, you have to either become perfectly altruistic in your intention, you know, and kind of, you know, purify yourself and like go through every karmic thing you need to go through, or, you know, things could go very badly with the kind of multiplying like tech force. And then it's this question of like, have we already, has that already been played out? Like, has that already been played out? And if we're not in base reality, maybe gaining access to the higher level platonic realm or whatever is this like morality test or karmic test in what we're currently in, which you end up in these like weird sort of thought loops. But going back to your like core, you know,

• 1:51:53Speaker 00

  the thing on, you know, transmission theory of consciousness, I think, comports far more with everyday phenomena when it comes to the brain than, you know, I think modern neuroscientists would like to admit. Like, how many people experience like these weird flash intuitions where they just have a premonition that something's gonna happen, they're gonna get in touch with somebody who's been out of their life for a long time, somebody's gonna call them, you know, and that just seems to happen over and over again. And I do think, my hope is, we're able to approach a physicalist model of consciousness that involves the transmission theory and non-local consciousness. And I

• 1:52:36Speaker 00

  think, if you'll indulge me, this is probably, you know, gonna be somewhat wrong, but like, you have Roger Penrose, who's a Nobel Prize winner, amazing physicist, he talks about, you know, microtubules, an orchestrated objective reduction. Well, he's asking, he's asking this really important question in physics, which is, how does microscopic quantum reality, which is probabilistic in nature, why don't we see that, why do we see macroscopic discrete reality? I see one Andre, I don't see a probability function of Andre's. And it's a really important question, and most physicists would never dare to try to even broach that topic. But he wrote a couple of books on it. And he

• 1:53:16Speaker 00

  says that microtubules, which are part of the cytoskeleton of a lot of cells, and neurons specifically, basically, like, they are involved in wave function collapse. And they can maintain some sort of coherence, and then they decohere, and boom, you snap, you see reality, you see a kind of an eigenstate, like a specific state of reality, you don't see the wave function anymore. And I don't know if that is correct. I find it fascinating that if you shut the microtubules down with anesthesia, a body could be fully functioning, but just consciousness seems to turn off, which is why Penrose partnered with Stuart Hameroff, this anesthesiologist,

• 1:53:57Speaker 00

  on his theory. But let's just say that maybe something quantum is going in in the brain. That might sound kind of woo-woo or new agey, but quantum biology is literally a burgeoning field. Like, we know photosynthesis and enzyme creation. We know that those things involve quantum effects. So we think of the body as warm, wet, and noisy, you know, kind of more akin to kind of decoherence and not maintaining quantum coherence. But that is, over and over again, getting proven wrong, you know? And so, okay, so let's just assume maybe something quantum is happening in the brain, and that explains why we see

• 1:54:39Speaker 00

  kind of discrete macroscopic reality. If you talk to even certain scientists today who are working on quantum computers, in one interpretation, you have spooky action at a distance, you know, so you have like, obviously, you know, entanglement with two photons like across vast, you know, distances in a way that breaks the speed of light and freaked Einstein out. But you also have spooky action across time, where it seems like the measurement of photon B in the future is affecting the measurement of photon A in the past. So weird, right? So people who are now working on quantum computations have figured out that you can, and quantum computing just generally, have figured out that you

• 1:55:21Speaker 00

  can reverse qubits in quantum computations. And so they're now saying, maybe, in a working quantum computer, which we're not at yet, you know, the chips are the main bottleneck, but, you know, maybe we get to at some point, you could send information back in time in one interpretation of quantum mechanics. And so if you think about, like, the premonitions that people have and experience in their day-to-day life, maybe it's they're accessing their future knowledge state.

• 1:55:54Speaker 02

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 1:56:22Speaker 00

  And so like you can come up with these like interesting physicalist models of consciousness. And I think they're limited and wrong, but like, you know, but like, you know.

• 1:56:32André Duqum?

  It's fascinating. And I mean, it would, it would hint at why maybe déjà vu sort of happens in moments of diffused awareness. We're not really focused on anything in particular. And then you have a glimpse of premonition of this happening before or something. It also brings up notions of aliens being future humans potentially.

• 1:56:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:56:51André Duqum?

  And a sort of analogous, but different, different understanding, uh, which we can, which we can get into. That was fascinating though. Yeah, I'm, I'm very curious to see what, what emerges in our understanding in the science and physics of this.

• 1:57:10André Duqum?

  Now, was there anything just kind of going back onto the understanding of like the taxonomy of angels? And like the seraphim and the sort of mapping of these angelic beings? And how they could kind of, you know, track to the one of one?

• 1:57:24Speaker 00

  Well, so like you have a lot of biblical stories where angels are, they're often more violent, or you don't want to be in their presence because it's overwhelming. There's literally, so you mentioned St. Thomas Aquinas. He had a whole taxonomy of, uh, you know, angels. And he based a lot of his stuff off of this Syrian Neoplatonist named Eamblichus. And he would write on the mysteries, but he also had this whole kind of, you know, angel hierarchy. And you can literally read, like, you can create like a table out of like his angel hierarchy. And it's, you know, you know, stuff that looks like. And chara beam and that sort of thing.

• 1:58:06Speaker 00

  And then one of them, like literally the attribute is like irradiated light. And you're like, that looks like electromagnetic radiation. And it looks like some of the stuff that Gary Nolan, again, the Stanford professor says that the CIA came knocking at his door. I think in like the mid 2010s, like 2015. And they were like, we've, we have all these UFO experiencers and they've experienced all these weird effects. And it was bucketed in with some people experiencing Havana syndrome, which we now know probably come from these like microwave weapons.

• 1:58:38Speaker 00

  But basically a lot, you know, if you take, you know, that at face value, he's looking at a lot of UFO experiencers. And they're experiencing literal radiation burns. And then you see kind of analogues to that in ancient history, which is fascinating. You literally watch Close Encounters of the Third Kind and you see the main character's face. You see him sunburned. You see this literal like, like, uh, um, you know, like, like as if like the UFO like, like, uh, emitted this like electromagnetic radiation. And so it's like, who is giving Steven Spielberg the information, you know, in the eighties about this sort of stuff? And you see actually crates in Close Encounters. One that says, I think, Skunk Works and another that says TRW.

• 1:59:22Speaker 00

  And those are the two like most classified programs associated with Lockheed and Northrop.

• 1:59:27Speaker 00

  Pretty, pretty fascinating. And now he's of course coming out next year with, or this year, rather, with Disclosure Day, uh, which is, you know, very anticipated. So yeah, anyways, going back to your question, I, I think. The angels thing is it is instructive and it is interesting. And you even have a guy named Chris Bledsoe, who's this UFO super experiencer in North Carolina, who's actually friends with one of your past guests, rest in peace, Robert Gilbert. Cause they were going back and forth on a lot of this symbolism that Chris Bledsoe was receiving through his transmissions, through his alien interactions. And some of them seem to maybe comport with Rosicrucian symbols and stuff. And like, you know, this gets into territory that like, I don't know what to make of a lot of this stuff.

• 2:00:14Speaker 00

  But he said, so this is crazy. When he started to experience a lot of these UFOs showing up, you know, around his house and stuff, a guy showed up at his front door. And we now know that guy to be this guy named Hal Povenmire, who we know is this senior scientist at NASA. He's worked at NASA for years. And he, I guess, like, towards the end of his life on his deathbed, he told the family, you know, he was both CIA and NASA. And he would say things to blood cell, which again, like, maybe don't take it face value. Some of these people are coming in from the intel world, you know, I don't know. But they would, he would say, like, "Don't get close to the angel beings." You know, "They're emitting like megavolts of electric," like, "It's really dangerous."

• 2:00:59Speaker 00

  And so then you're like, "What the hell?" Like, "You have people at NASA who are like studying angels and demons?" Like, "It's really weird."

• 2:01:10Speaker 00

  Like, "Do they have a taxonomy? Do they have like megavolt ranges that they associate?" "I don't know," you know?

• 2:01:16André Duqum?

  It's fascinating what, how memory and past prior experience colors perception? And how 2,000 years ago, the experience of these beings might have been depicted in a way because we had a certain sort of typographer, like, sort of a, sort of framework for what they would be or look like versus, versus now. And I'm just curious how you think that may be colors. Like, if these are, I find it always suspicious that alien extraterrestrial beings would essentially look like somewhat augmented human beings.

• 2:01:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:01:52André Duqum?

  It's like, "We can't get much more creative than that." But perhaps that is the form they look like to us in this dimensional timescape, you know, because that's what we can perceive, feel comfortable with. And in reality, an interdimensional being doesn't take form in any sort of shape that would be resembling, like, a physical biology to us.

• 2:02:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, totally. It's a great question, and I think you're touching on like, not only is it unlikely, it's literally statistically unlikely that they would be bipedal, upright, hominid-looking beings. If you think about it, you have, in the Milky Way Galaxy, like, estimated 20 billion Earth-like planets. So that's what people always cite. They're always like, but there are 20 billion Earth-like planets, so they would look like us. And then you take a step back and you go, okay, but there are like, over a trillion likely non-Earth-like planets. So the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to this bipedal, hominid, upright, you know, creature, which, by the way, is somewhat rare on Earth, is

• 2:02:59Speaker 00

  just extremely slim, in an environment that, you know, Earth-like, we're saying generously, like, doesn't have the same, you know, gravity as us, doesn't have the same weather, doesn't have the same, you know, levels of, you know, nitrogen in the air, whatever. Like, it's just, it's really unlikely that they look like not only us, but they look like what a conventional evolutionary biologist would say humans look like in the future. And so this is where it gets really crazy. There are these concepts in evolutionary biology, neotony or heteromorphosis, and it's this idea that, basically, your current children

• 2:03:39Speaker 00

  will look like your future offspring as a species. So the, like, larval or childlike, you know, features in your species will get retained over long periods of time, and that literally also occurs with domesticated species. And if you think about, like, what a dog is to a wolf, that is probably what a future human is to a current human, just based on pure natural selection. I mean, testosterone's falling off a cliff, you know, I'm not trying to advertise to the manosphere here, but like, these are stats, right? Like, testosterone's falling off a cliff, sperm counts falling off a cliff, and, like, we just don't need to use our bodies like we used to. Like, we're at this weird, like, high-leverage, like, software point in the world where, like, you know, like, you just,

• 2:04:24Speaker 00

  like, use AI to, like, get a lot done. And and so like, you know, we're not hunter gathering anymore. And so like, our noses are becoming vestigial. Our ears are becoming vestigial. Gray aliens have small noses and they have small ears. Uh, our eyes are becoming more important and adaptive. Like, people need more macular and ocular support than they ever have, because screen time is at an all time high. Well, guess what? Do these gray aliens have like, eyes that seem like they wrap around their heads and like are slit like or whatever, where they seem more important. Obviously, your prefrontal cortex and decision making is going to be more important. Um, if if there is anything to any of this ESP sci stuff, like telepathy,

• 2:05:04Speaker 00

  or like, just into call it intuition, if you're more of a materialist reductionist, that's going to be selected for. And so you're going to develop these, you know, a larger prefrontal cortex and like more of those sorts of, you know, powers as well. And not only that, but if you look at a lot of abduction cases, over 50% of them involve hominid-like beings. So again, the likelihood of that being the case, if they're not like, probably related to humans, like is really low. And then often they're friendly. I think 85% of those of that 52% are friendly. So it's like you would, you would show a care for your former self, you know, or for, you know, your former, you know, it doesn't have to be you from the future. It can be like, you know, your species or whatever.

• 2:05:47Speaker 00

  And if you think about like North Sentinel Island or a super remote pygmy tribe. So like North Sentinel Island is this island off the coast of India. And they've basically like, they don't know the rest of the world exists. Like, they exist like, literally on a complete island. They're protected. They have protected status under the Indian government. A couple of missionaries tried to go there in the early 20th century and they got like shot with arrows. And for all we know, North, this North Sentinelis have like a myth of aliens encountering them, right? Where they're like, they're like talking about like, these missionaries, like, you know, they were pale and they were, they looked like us, but not fully like us, you know? And they might think that they're from some other star system, but Occam's razor,

• 2:06:31Speaker 00

  you know, the the easiest shortest path explanation is definitely that they're related to you. If they look like you and they're showing up in proximity to you, they show a care about your survival. You know, in certain cases, when the gamete collection occurs with these abduction cases, so Barney Hill, which we talked about, he reluctantly, you know, it's very embarrassing to admit because this was the 60s and this is a very repressed version of America. He admitted that semen samples were taken from him. And so then you get into these weird speculation about like, are we in this like intergenerational breeding program? Because sometimes the communications between the beings and the humans are like, you know, we experienced the nuclear holocaust and we need to renew our biodiversity.

• 2:07:16Speaker 00

  Or, you know, yeah, things aren't looking great on our planet.

• 2:07:20André Duqum?

  Which tracks to ancient civilization theories about Nibiru and extraterrestrial intervention to the human species and all that.

• 2:07:27Speaker 00

  Totally, totally.

• 2:07:29André Duqum?

  There's so many fascinating rabbit holes to go down, you know, it's like.

• 2:07:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:07:33André Duqum?

  But yeah, it's interesting.

• 2:07:34Speaker 00

  It is. And who knows what is going on? It's hard to say, but it seems like these beings have more access to a time agnostic version of reality because there's always missing time in these cases. The crafts seem more like almost time machines than they do like vehicles that take you off Earth. And if you think about it, you would need some sort of spacetime match. If you do take the, you know, speed of light as like the ultimate like speed limit for the universe, you would need some sort of basically spacetime engineering going on. So you would need time travel in order to get like interstellar space travel. So I think it is sort of this false dichotomy.

• 2:08:18Speaker 00

  But yeah, you do, you seem to have these ascended versions of humans with like total 360 control over reality. But there's almost like in Star Trek, you have pre warp drive civilizations and you have warp drive civilizations. They're like technologically advanced, but they can't interfere. There's something called the prime directive where you can't interfere with pre warp drive civilizations. So it's like they only can do minimal interference with people. And they often, people experience taking chemical rinses after they like leave the craft or like as they're leaving the craft so that they don't contaminate, you know, society with the like alien pathogens or whatever. It's very strange. I don't know what is going on, but.

• 2:09:01Speaker 00

  It's kind of like what you would think of like if you again, if it's like you take this zoological or anthropological model, you know, or you watch a show like Chimp Nation or whatever, where you know, which like Rogan loves to cite, where you're like, you're peering in and you're kind of trying to blend in and you're not really trying to interfere. But you also don't really care that much if you get seen and then maybe you want to like tag the animals with a certain thing and like study a thing. That seems like what's happening with us. And they don't seem to care about human hierarchies and status. Like if they, we did, like, I did just interview the president of a Russian republic who was taken aboard a UFO while he was sitting president. But that's, you know, an outlier.

• 2:09:46Speaker 00

  And then he says he has some other presidents who like won't go public with of nations, you know, which is crazy. But that's, that's the exception to the rule. Usually it's like average people. And usually you're left asking, well, why Betty and Barney Hill? Or why, you know, they're just normal people. So it's very confusing, but it's very interesting, too.

• 2:10:05André Duqum?

  So what do you make of the sort of recurring themes that you see when people take DMT through holotropic breathwork, out of body experiences? There seems to be a doorway where the valve, so to speak, opens up and you have access to more of these contacts with these beings. A lot of people have experiences of, why would that, if it would, in your understanding, open up to more of these experiences?

• 2:10:33Speaker 00

  It's a great question. So, so I think if we are living in an adaptive, low level version of reality, simulation or the Don Hoffman thing, something like that. And I hate the word simulation because it has this postmodern nihilistic context. And I think in the platonic context, it's very empowering and it makes your life extremely important. It doesn't make it like, oh, play Grand Theft Auto. It makes it like this like sacred thing. So with that caveat, I do think there's something participatory about whatever's going on here. So if you are in this, call it a matrix, how would you break out? Of the Matrix. Well, there'd be two ways. One would be high-energy physics. So it would be the reckless way.

• 2:11:18Speaker 00

  Particle accelerators, nuclear blasts, and high-voltage experimentation of Tesla, Townsend Brown, both of whom literally said they spoke to aliens. Marconi also said he spoke to aliens. So like, the people who are doing these high-voltage experiments, like, literally saying that they experience these kind of otherworldly communications. So you're literally breaking reality in those cases, in the case of higher-energy physics. Like, when you get to Planck-scale energy, which we're not at with, like, nuclear blasts necessarily, but are you bending the fabric of spacetime itself? Are you creating little black holes? Like, I think they say it's like 10 to the ninth megatons of TNT, and you can create little black holes.

• 2:12:04Speaker 00

  I think the Tsar bomb is not there yet. But it's like, we might be messing with the literal root fabric of reality with these sorts of experiments in ways that are extremely reckless, where if you're managing this whole system, you're gonna be like, "Stop. What are you doing?" And you're gonna monitor that stuff, à la UFOs showing up around nuclear sites. Now, you talked about DMT and consciousness. What would be the other way out of the simulation? It would be like, the way that you were meant to ascend through the simulation. And that would be more of like, you're running in these karmic whirlpools, and you're like, following this sort of life path. And maybe, within those,

• 2:12:46Speaker 00

  you experience these sort of transcendent experiences. And that would involve, like, DMT gets released at death, and at these kind of primordial occasions. And so, there are probably moments in life where it's adaptive, even in your life, to like, take the headset off and to see reality for what it is. And even in the Platonic sense, you always glimpse the light, but you can never stay there. Like, it'll literally eviscerate you. And so, I think a lot of religions, like, the esoteric versions of religions, actually normalize into this kind of kabbalistic, Merkabah. And I'd definitely be considered some sort of heretic in saying this. And there are all sorts of people

• 2:13:30Speaker 00

  who know way more about religion than me, but... I would say a lot of religion kind of describes, I think, this ascendance path.

• 2:13:40André Duqum?

  Yeah, you look back through the Gnostic origins of almost every religion, there is a lot more convergence across the board until like a lot of the dogmatic additions on top of it came.

• 2:13:53Speaker 00

  I agree. I agree. And I think a lot of, whether it's Ezekiel, or I think Jesus experienced this in the Book of Acts, or Enoch, which, you know, maybe is apocryphal, like I'll let the historians debate about that. You, in Enoch's case, he literally transforms into an angel, speaking of, you know, NHI being this aspirational thing, if they are real. But, you know, in all of those cases, they seem to walk with or commune with God, and go up on some sort of vessel or chariot. I guess, you know, the Jesus translation is a cloud, it's a chariot in the case of Ezekiel. But, yeah, we were talking earlier about the varieties of religious experience.

• 2:14:32Speaker 00

  And if you have, like, people who want a Gnostic, like a knowing of God, like they need the experience. You know, like Thomas the doubter, yeah, the doubter in many cases, you know, would be the archetypal, like you actually need to experience God firsthand.

• 2:14:52Speaker 00

  Those sorts of, you know, people would, and in that interpretation, Jesus might not be, you know, some sort of exceptional, you know, extremely, you know, like a one of one case that happened to live 2,000 years ago. But like in a state, a state that's, that someone can sort of ascend to. And, um, yeah, then you get into like a lot of these stories and you have, you know, in Hebrew, you know, Merkabah, you have the seven hekalot, or seven palaces, you know, in Egypt, you have the Aret, you know, in Sumeria, you have the ziggurat.

• 2:15:30Speaker 00

  In Resurrectionism, you have seven levels where you have to discard, you know, a part of what you're wearing or whatever at every level. There's always like a gift. And you have, you know, Thomas Merton, you know, the seven story mountain. And you have, you have this, this weird recurrence of like seven, you know, Islam, you have seven levels of heaven. And I think seven levels of earth or something. And so. Maybe you could normalize the religions into, there's a really great book by a guy named Peter Lavenda, and it's about these kind of prototypical kind of, or archetypal kind

• 2:16:12Speaker 00

  of kabbalistic experiences, underpinning a lot of these more esoteric forms of religion. And so that would be how you would connect like the DMT experiences, I think, with the, you know, the high-energy physics, because this is like a reckless way where you're like, you're like, you know, you're like a child and you're like playing with something you're not supposed to, and they're like taking the matches out of your hand or whatever. And then this thing is like, you know, maybe it's not for anybody, not for everybody. In fact, there's, in the parable of the parties, which is, you know, the kabbalistic tradition, there's something like, you know, four rabbis are trying to ascend, you know, up and walk

• 2:16:53Speaker 00

  with God, and like, I want to say like, two go crazy, one die, and one makes it, or something. And it's this straight and narrow path. And actually, at the end of St. Francis of Assisi's life, he writes one letter in the Greek alphabet in his diary, and it's the letter Tau. And Diana Pasulka says that Tau signified conversion to Christianity, but it wasn't, it was like a forced conversion. It was like he was forced to walk the straight and narrow. And if you think about Jesus, you know, in the garden, like, you know, his fate was his fate, and he did, but he didn't want to accept his fate, you know, he was, he

• 2:17:35Speaker 00

  was really afraid and reluctant in many ways. And so I think, you know, there is a way in which all of this stuff, if you do like widen your aperture, that you expose yourself to stuff that can burn you and can set you down the wrong path. And if you can walk that straight and narrow, I think you can, you can ascend into like a really cool state of consciousness. And, you know, what that is, I don't know, it's just like impossible to like talk about a lot of this stuff, but.

• 2:18:06André Duqum?

  Man, it's fascinating. I know you've had a couple of interesting experiences yourself, right?

• 2:18:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to tell? I can tell you about them.

• 2:18:15André Duqum?

  Yeah, I'd be curious and also like how you, what the aftermath of processing that is, because I know you're somebody who, I mean, clearly has a love for exploring all these alternative theories, but then also stays very grounded and just open-minded and in regards to it all. So, yeah. What happened?

• 2:18:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was kind of also why I'm here today, talking to you, because like, I would probably still be like investing in startups and this would be this like compartmentalized.

• 2:18:50André Duqum?

  These were like the origins for you to kind of take this line of work way more seriously?

• 2:18:54Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. Because it became like a Nost- and I think if you speak to a lot of UFO researchers, a lot of them try to stay really impartial and be like, "Oh yeah, I did see that one." And then you like, you know, you have a drink with them or something and they're like, "Okay, like, I just want to know what I saw," you know? And like, and then you realize that like their work is like this autobiographical, which again, I think it's just impossible to parse and it's better to be honest about that. So definitely was a reinforcer as far as trying to figure out what was going on here. And right when the pandemic hit, actually, in, I think it was 2020, I had two pretty crazy experiences.

• 2:19:39André Duqum?

  You were doing what at the time?

• 2:19:40Speaker 00

  I was investing in startups at a family office, just like in a prosaic like tech venture job or whatever. And part of the job was looping in, we had a speaker series and I would like loop in interesting thinkers. And so I was exploring some topics around, you know, this sort of stuff back then. But I don't know, I always thought it would be like a... Funny sort of joke or something like it was, I don't know, it was not a funny joke, but like this compartmentalized part of my life that like, you know, I grew up and my, my dad was interested in Rudolph Steiner and like, he was always interested in like kind of alternative philosophy. And so like, I always had that growing up, but like- And his godfather is Rob Sterling, right?

• 2:20:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. So this is a really trippy synchronicity is his godfather exactly literally made the seminal UFO documentary in 1974. And I didn't even know that until getting into the UFO stuff. It's just such a bizarre synchronicity. Um, and now, now I'm like, did like, what did he tell you about UFOs? And like, my dad's not super into UFOs. So he's like, he was really into them, you know? Um, so that's wild, right? But, um, yeah, I was, it was always this kind of like curiosity, this novel curiosity. And then in, I think it was in 2020, it was like, right when the pandemic hit, I had a couple of experiences.

• 2:21:03Speaker 00

  One was I was walking in Laurel Canyon and I was, uh, with this woman who I just met. And it was kind of, I don't know, we were mostly friends, but it was kind of romantic as well. And, uh, and, uh, she was super cool and like interested in like out there subjects. And so we were on a long walk in Laurel Canyon and, um, she was like, uh, you know, I'm really into aliens, like, you know? And then I was joking, she was like, are you an alien? I was like, I'm actually, I'm super into aliens. And then I was like, I want to meet an alien. That's what I said. And then she goes, it'll happen when you stop looking for them. And I'm like, what? This is crazy. And then as we're walking, as we're having this conversation, we walk by a guy with a metal detector. And he's so, and he's

• 2:21:48Speaker 00

  looking for something. It's like, it's like sunset. And we're like, I've never seen a guy with a metal detector in Laurel Canyon. It doesn't make sense. You know, we're in Topanga right now. It's like, why, why is somebody on the street with a metal detector? It doesn't make sense. You know, those are two very similar neighborhoods in LA, just residential. And so there's something symbolic about him looking for a thing. And then like, you know, and just while she says that, and I don't even think I would have remembered that, obviously, if what was about to happen next didn't happen. But, um, you know, some amount of time goes by, you know, I want to say it's like a minute or two or something. And then- We are like basically in the, under this like clearing where you know, there's a lot of trees overhead and there's this like clearing.

• 2:22:31Speaker 00

  And I see a UFO that looks like this kind of like a school bus shaped thing. Doesn't look at all like a saucer, a Tic Tac, any of the stuff you're used to hearing about. And no visible propulsion. It's like this gray metallic thing. Maybe it's somewhat cigar shaped or Tic Tac shaped, but I really thought of it as more kind of rectangle, like, you know, kind of hard angles. And I remember just looking up and being like, what the fuck is that? And it like just went overhead and then she saw, she said she saw it like descend into the treetops, but I, I didn't see that. And I don't know.

• 2:23:13Speaker 00

  I mean, she's like still like, you know, I think she lives in like Bali now and like we talk about it occasionally and she's like, that was the weirdest experience ever. And, uh, and it's just so strange. And so that experience and then I was doing holotropic.

• 2:23:26André Duqum?

  So real quick on that.

• 2:23:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:28André Duqum?

  Can, can I just fly past the?

• 2:23:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

• 2:23:33André Duqum?

  I wonder if Ms. Frizzle was driving it, by the way.

• 2:23:37André Duqum?

  What, um, how, how, how many feet away from you?

• 2:23:41Speaker 00

  Like how? Not, not, I, not high. So like 50 ish, 60 ish feet, like right above the treetops.

• 2:23:49André Duqum?

  Okay. And it was, you felt it was physical or was it like made of light or what was it?

• 2:23:54Speaker 00

  It felt like physical to me. It felt really physical to me.

• 2:23:57André Duqum?

  Okay.

• 2:23:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:23:58André Duqum?

  Flying, no noise coming from it?

• 2:24:00Speaker 00

  No noise coming from it. Yeah.

• 2:24:03André Duqum?

  Interesting.

• 2:24:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I don't, I don't know what to make of it. I literally have, you know? And, um, it was definitely at a time, I feel during the pandemic where the world was opening up to me. Like, do you feel like the world has?

• 2:24:19Speaker 00

  Has gotten weirder since then. I think that's the safe thing to say.

• 2:24:23André Duqum?

  I think people are realizing how weird it is, how weird the world is.

• 2:24:26Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah, the epistemics are catching up to the reality.

• 2:24:30André Duqum?

  Right.

• 2:24:32Speaker 00

  But that for me was like this big awakening time. And I think for a lot of people is a forcing function of it's kind of this like grow or die moment of like, get your shit together and like do what you're supposed to do in life or like waste away and you know, kind of repress it forever. And that experience felt, it felt like deeply meaningful along those lines. But and especially as far as like me moving from a more kind of like hard charging finance, trying to make money, trying to like, you know, being in this like sharp elbow world of like, I need to invest in the next billion dollar thing and you know, into like, what's going on in reality and like, you know, going on this kind of gnostic quest. And it definitely

• 2:25:15Speaker 00

  felt like it redirected me somehow. And yeah, I'd be like lying if I were to say it didn't. And then it's, it also feels like this, it's such a, you know, especially if you don't have, and I didn't like, it wasn't really long enough for me to record it. I also remember at the time I didn't have a show and like, I remember thinking in my head like, this is sacred. And like, I know it sounds ridiculous for somebody that now has a show, you know? And it's fair to, you know, sort of critique, in retrospect, I wish I had. But yeah, it felt like deeply kind of meaningful. But then the meaning also feels like hard to unpack where, you know, meaningful in that like, you know, I'm, I know, I think I know

• 2:25:58Speaker 00

  there's a there there because I've experienced something firsthand, or at least as part of my path. But as to what it is, like, you know, it's not like I was given this download of semantic information alongside it.

• 2:26:08André Duqum?

  Yeah. I think that's a consistent theme with people who have transpersonal experiences. It's almost in a way, like I've heard you refer to the monolith in the Space Odyssey. Robert Gilbert refers to like, and I've also heard Joe Rogan, you know, refer to like these, and these transpersonal experiences, having experiences of sacred geometric figures that are imbued with meaning and love, you know? And that there is something inherently.

• 2:26:37André Duqum?

  Interwoven with a level of beauty and intelligence that is beyond the level of comprehension we have the capacity for in a given moment. But you can intuitively feel there's something really beautiful there. And I mean, connecting the dots, looking backwards, whatever it was, it definitely set you down this route. So, and then you had another one with breathwork.

• 2:26:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And also Silver Lake. So like, you know, people don't know LA, like East LA, where like, you know, typical like bohemian screenwriters, you know, working in like Hollywood Live or whatever, like, not necessarily like your Sedona or even Topanga or like what you would think of as like some portal or whatever for this sort of stuff. But it is interesting that, you know, I had gone surfing with my buddy that day. And this friend of mine is like one of the most materialist reductionists. Like he subscribes to David Hume and like natural philosophy. He's a Noam Chomsky fan who, you know, Noam Chomsky, I think, wrote a lot about angels. And so I think he's like sort of compartmentalized from aspects of himself as a lot of people

• 2:27:42Speaker 00

  might be, you know, but he's basically a materialist reductionist. Like the guy is like, doesn't believe, you know, in magic in the world. And so this is my, you know, he also invests with me and like, you know, kind of a high functioning guy and like not at all interested in like woo woo stuff. And we went surfing. We were at his mom's house in Orange County, near like Trestles, so like great surf spot. And he's a really good surfer. And we went back to his place in Silver Lake and I was, had just gotten into holotropic breathwork and it was just like amazing modality for me. I love it. I find it to be like this beautiful, like kind of healing thing.

• 2:28:25Speaker 00

  It was invented by this Hungarian psychiatrist named Stanislav Grof. And it means growing towards wholeness, just like heliotropy, like a plant would grow towards the sun. And you're supposed to actually endogenously release DMT in your brain if you like do it long enough. And so it's interesting, we're doing this holotropic breathwork, I'm teaching him. Not long into the breath work, like five minutes in, and for people who've done this, I imagine a decent subset of your audience has done this. You develop a tolerance for it, and he hadn't had the tolerance. So like five minutes in, you get these like T-Rex hands, you know? Yeah, Tenny. Yeah, Tenny, exactly. And you're, and you, um, yeah, like, yeah, or tetany, yeah, exactly, like tetanus.

• 2:29:10Speaker 00

  And you, your, your hands are clam up and, um, so he got that. And, uh, so it was almost as if he was having like a, an even greater experience than what you would expect in like a five minute period. And you could see like it was kind of profound for him. And, uh, five minutes in, we just, we look up and we see these two metallic orbs and they're just, one seems to be floating above him, one seems to be floating above me, but really high up, I'm talking tens of, tens and thousands of, of feet in the air. And, uh, you know, beyond that, it's hard to gauge distance and they seem like they're bobbing and they're not, they're not flying like normal vehicles.

• 2:29:54Speaker 00

  And I look at him and my immediate reaction is like UFO, cause you know, I was already somewhat into this stuff. I'd already had the other experience. And, um, he looks at me and I go, what do you think those are or whatever? And he goes, I think there's the, you know, deep black Lockheed tech or whatever. And, you know, a few seconds go by and he goes, that's not that, yeah, that's not from here, dude. And, uh, and we just look at each other and we're like, yeah, that's, that's the weirdest thing ever. And it's just bobbing, these things are bobbing. And then they sort of, you know, a minute or two goes by and then they, they, they seem to like disappear, like it's like as if they, you know, they didn't like, they didn't fly off.

• 2:30:39Speaker 00

  And also just, I don't know, so strange. And again, didn't take a photo. I think if we had taken a photo, it would have looked like what a lot of these orb, they're, if you go online now, we are swimming in orb photos and it far surpasses people's motivations to fake this stuff and CGI capabilities or animation capabilities or even the AI deep fakes, cause they don't look. Super, they look like they're being blue shifted or red shifted. They look kind of like there's some gravitational lensing, which in this Age of Disclosure documentary, it talks about how UFOs fly and like why that sort of happens.

• 2:31:21Speaker 00

  So that was more of kind of an archetypal UFO experience in that you see these kind of metallic sort of orbs. And then again, it's like, I don't know what it what it meant, but for sure, some sort of Allah, the Jacques Vallée intermittent reinforcement. You know, maybe I'm just like a hamster on a wheel and it's like, you know, feeding me a little bit when I need it.

• 2:31:41André Duqum?

  It's fascinating, and I totally hear the argument of like, if this is such a widespread experience that so many people are having, why does everything look like it's filmed on a potato? And why do we not have extremely compelling footage if, you know, given the widespread amount of phones and cameras?

• 2:32:01Speaker 00

  I think the decent answer to that is talked about in this Age of Disclosure documentary. It's talked about, but you know, specifically by this physicist Hal Puthoff, where you get these sort of gravitational lensing effects. And because these UFOs are flying at such high speeds, they seem to be either compressing or like stretching light or compressing light. So you get these red shift or blue shift effects, which are causing the sort of sunburn style stuff if you get into too close proximity to them. And so you end up with, you know, lensing effects on cameras where they look, they end up looking pretty blurry. And so, you know, we only see between 400 and 700 nanometers of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. On either end, you have infrared, you know, you have ultraviolet.

• 2:32:45Speaker 00

  Seems like we have some interesting infrared, you know, data. And I just think, you know, it's a sort of like sensor bias of like, you know, it has to be this thing that we're like seeing in our reality, which there are plenty of things that are real that we don't have, you know, images of.

• 2:33:01André Duqum?

  What would be the strongest non-conspiratorial explanation for all these orb sightings and everything?

• 2:33:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, great question. It would be something like a combination of holographic projections, plus spoofing technology, plus propulsion that exists in the classified world that is deep black, that is beyond our current prosaic capabilities. And I would say both of those are interesting answers. And then I would also say, okay, think about it. And a lot of this stuff deals with consciousness, and these people in these deep meditative states seem to see this stuff. How would the spoofing technology somehow know how to correlate with

• 2:33:48Speaker 00

  you being in a peak state consciousness-wise? It doesn't really make sense. And then the gravity stuff, it's like, okay, cool. So we have new physics, and the physics we're using is fake or something. It's funny, actually. Elon Musk made this really interesting statement. So he's always dogmatically opposed to the UFO topic, which I find very curious and interesting.

• 2:34:09André Duqum?

  So he says that what, if somebody were to know about them, I would?

• 2:34:12Speaker 00

  He would. Yeah, yeah. And then I had Joe Rogan on my show, and I was like, okay, if you got him and David Grush on your show together, he goes, A, Elon wouldn't do it, and David Grush would win. And he goes, Elon's a sly dog. I know he knows more than he's saying about this stuff. And, look, say what you will about Joe, I absolutely love him. You can say he's biased, pro-UFO, or whatever, but the guy has a super interesting vantage point. He knows a lot of people in and around government. Everybody's probably trying to sycophantically cozy up to the guy, and giving him information. His worldview is way better

• 2:34:55Speaker 00

  than I think people who are so skeptical about all this stuff and like to trash him than they realize, in my opinion. So, yeah, I found that to be very interesting. But Elon, so he's so dogmatically opposed to this stuff generally. He'll be joking, he'll say, "I'm an alien," or something, or he'll be like, "I would know because I have all the clearances," which I consistently hear from people on the inside, like, is absolutely ridiculous. Like, you know, it doesn't have, you know, blanket clearances to everything. Like, that world is so stove-piped and compartmentalized that if you had some legacy pockets or whatever in these companies that are kind of incumbent

• 2:35:37Speaker 00

  and, you know, trying to compete against SpaceX, I don't think he would, like, you know, be privy to everything just because he runs a chemical combustion rocket company. But what I found interesting is he went on, I think Tucker Carlson, and he walked back his dogmatic skepticism, and he goes, "What these pilots are seeing is probably just, you know, American-classified programs." So that's really interesting, because unless you are saying that it's all like radar spoofing and visual spoofing technology, like, something's mastered the ability to, like, do both, then what you're admitting is there are advanced vehicles that are flying in ways that transcend

• 2:36:18Speaker 00

  the chemical combustion you're using at SpaceX. And to me, that is, like, fascinating. Like, I would not feel bad, having spent all my time studying UFOs, if, like, that's the way the wave function collapses. I happen to think it's more complicated than that, but, like, cool. Like, if that's the answer, that's fascinating. But again, it just doesn't explain how these things show up, you know, during certain states and in these sort of synchronistic ways. And then the meta thing is like, are we constantly, are we conflating what is probably a zoo of phenomena? And that's probably the answer. Like, the answer is likely not, "Oh, once you open your sensors, your epistemic aperture, like, what you can

• 2:37:01Speaker 00

  see, you see, like, one thing that explains all these phenomena," or whatever. There's one epiphenomena that explains the low-level phenomenon. Like, probably not, right? Like, you could be seeing survivors of an ancient cataclysm that are hiding underneath our oceans. You could see, like, this, like, you know, orb, like, you know, they're engaged- In like nuclear game theory, like, you know, holding back like the nukes or whatever and doing recon on us. You could see space alien, like you could see like all these different things. I'm like, you know, I don't know. You know, you'd have to somehow probability weight these things. You have to create some sort of infographic and map. And think about these in like Bayesian sort of probabilistic ways.

• 2:37:42Speaker 00

  And I think the people, there's no one doing that. Like, everybody's stuck on this like first base, like alien, not alien. And like the deeper thinkers are like, we don't even, like, that's the wrong framework. We don't even know. We just know that there's like all these empirical anomalies that we have to study.

• 2:37:59André Duqum?

  What is your like?

• 2:38:03André Duqum?

  What is your best guess as to what's actually happening? You said it's a conflation of all these different things. But what, what, what is your most compelling, not to say you're fully convicted of explanation of what's going on?

• 2:38:14Speaker 00

  So I, I'm really high conviction on the Townsend Brown anti-gravity stuff. I think there's like so much evidence there. Allah, the like lead electrostatics guy at NASA leaving to start a company around, you know, his sort of work. And then all the historical stuff I've dug up. Around him achieving real results with his experiments, but also trying to stigmatize himself and cover up what he did. So I'd say high conviction on that, extremely high conviction that something is showing up in the aerial space of nuclear facilities all over the world. So again, Fukushima, Japan, you know, Bariloche, Argentina, all these nuclear bases across the United States, Rendlesham in England, the famous case in 1980.

• 2:38:56Speaker 00

  Something is happening there beyond the coordination abilities of some master psyoper. So like those two things, extremely high conviction in. A third thing that I'm really high conviction in, which is probably my most controversial belief. Would be that reality is just way more malleable and weird than we think. And that this gets into like, is the mind involved in wave function collapse? You know, this idea of parapsychology, which is really historically since the kind of advent of that term in the late 19th century. Is like this poor amalgamation of like everything. Weird that empirically seems to happen that doesn't comport well into like other science. Like, it's just a word for, it's a euphemistic term for like fringe science

• 2:39:40Speaker 00

  that involves mediumship and, you know, law of attraction, style, synchronicity, like all of these sorts of things. And so it's like such a, and it's, of course, they used like the, it's the worst branded version of science, you know, in the world because they used two words, para, which you could say is just short for paranormal, and psychology, which is the least replicable version of sci- so it's like, it's almost like self-stigmatizing for like a, a modern scientific person or whatever. But, I will say, you know, short of, you know, taking every ghost story seriously, which I don't think you should, um, if you look at the advent of quantum mechanics and you had these debates, you had all these

• 2:40:22Speaker 00

  guys like figuring out, you know, how does the wave function collapse? And you had, um, you know, Heisenberg saying it was this like kind of complex matrix mechanics. And then you have Schrodinger building on him saying, we have this, you know, wave mechanical, you know, um, Schrodinger equation, what turns into the Schrodinger equation. And then you have Einstein saying, wait, like, reality can't be probabilistic, God doesn't play dice. Um, actually, maybe we need to go to a pilot wave model, which is like a wave that like, you know, holds these discrete states, like de Broglie was this physicist that like, you know, thought about that sort of thing. So you go back to those debates and you look at like how this stuff was discovered and you look at all of these guys, and they're

• 2:41:05Speaker 00

  all flirting with the idea that the mind has something to do with wave function collapse at one point in their career. Not all of them ended their careers thinking like that. You know, Schrodinger sort of famously, you know, disregarded that as like, you know, an explanation, but like, he also had a dog whose name was Atman and would finish all his lectures, Atman equals Brahma. Like, these guys were like eastern thinkers. And then you get into David Bohm and his sort of implicit order. David Bohm, by the way, is used by kind of new agey people, but like he was Einstein's smartest student, like, you know, in a very conventional sense. If you read Heisenberg's Life in Physics, he's musing philosophically about like the

• 2:41:48Speaker 00

  relationship between consciousness and, you know, the material world and seems pretty non-dualist to me, at least in his speculations. And then maybe most famously, John von Neumann, who was like known to be the highest IQ of all of them, created the mathematical underpinnings of quantum mechanics, a lot of modern computational principles. He and his colleague Jonathan Wigner, like, at one point, fully had a theory that the mind engaged in wave function collapse. Then you can go later into people like John Wheeler, and these are all guys that any conventional physicist would like not really argue with, contributed to the bedrock of what we're standing on today.

• 2:42:30Speaker 00

  You go later into John Wheeler's participatory universe and his like delayed, you know, choice, you know, stuff and like, he goes right up until parapsychology, but doesn't, you know, doesn't say that, you know, the mind engages in wave function collapse. The point is, is like a modern, you know, quantum physicist would like be way more dogmatic about the mind not engaging in quantum, in a quantum wave function collapse than the original godfathers of this topic. Meanwhile, speaking of going down the tree trunk of physics and taking another branch, you have elite parapsychology programs at every university in the United States. Not every university, but a lot of them.

• 2:43:12Speaker 00

  So like you have like Wash U had something in the 60s. You had Stanford Research Institute, which literally like housed the CIA Psychic Spy Program. You had the Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was started by Bob John, who was dean of their general engineering school and was like a plasma propulsion guy. He was well respected in his scientific accomplishments outside of parapsychology.

• 2:43:39Speaker 00

  So you had UCLA had one right here. So you had like a lot of these like elite universities looking into parapsychology and basically looking at whether the mind interacted with what are conventionally thought of as random quantum mechanical, you know, things, phenomena. So things like radioactive isotope decay, a photon bouncing around a little box or whatever, or, you know, you could do like a double slit experiment where you have a 50/50 expectation of one slit or the other slit, you know, if an observer is present or whatever. And basically, so you have like a known statistical distribution, you hook that up to these random,

• 2:44:19Speaker 00

  or sorry, to these, to these basic computers, binary computers that produce ones and zeros. So say slit, you know, A or left slit is like, you know, that's a one, slit B is like, you know, a zero or whatever. And you have an observer present and you see if there's some sort of observational effect on, again, you're seeing it on a graphical interface, but it's tied to something that's conventionally thought of as random in quantum mechanics. So it's essentially a perfect digital coin flip. And within an expected standard deviation, you expect a 50/50 split between ones and zeros over a long enough time scale. And you talk to anybody that was actually in these programs, and again, they're elite

• 2:45:00Speaker 00

  universities, these guys are academics and women are academics, they're not like quacky. And all of them, all of them, without fail, like I really haven't met one who like was like, "Yeah, we looked into it and like nothing was there." They all come out being like, "Your mind does have cohort-wide, like, you know, or, you know, or across various cohorts, rather, you know, across, you know, lots and lots of experiments, a weak but statistically significant, you know, effect."

• 2:45:33Speaker 00

  And so then you get into, is the mind engaging in some sort of wave function collapse? Are you rendering reality itself? Is what you're seeing actually a render of something in the objective material world? Either that, or you're shooting some unobtanium particle, you know, fake photon we haven't discovered out at the thing and collapsing it. Like, I don't think that's happening. So I think it's something that points more towards like the Penrose, like orchestrated objective reduction, where you're collapsing reality with your mind or whatever, and you're rendering what seems to be a sort of computation. And this would dovetail with, you know, information theory-based physics, which, again, like people

• 2:46:14Speaker 00

  like John Wheeler flirted with, with it from bit and the idea that wave function collapse basically is like a bunch of yes/no questions from like what seems to be like, you know, binary code, like, you know, almost like transistor-like, you know, activity is creating reality. And so this is a really long-winded answer to your question, but it's like, that would explain like everybody's reality being like weird and subjectively extremely idiosyncratic and would explain air pockets of consensus reality. And it would explain Mandela effects. And, you know, there's a Schrodinger quote about, you know, measuring a particle and its present, in that affecting its past.

• 2:46:57Speaker 00

  And all of those guys, you know, Max Planck has a weird quote about like the mind creating or being responsible for causality. You know, so these are the types of questions all of these guys were flirting with because the quantum world was so weird. And so if you point to the quantum thing as like pointing towards some sort of ontological truth and not what the Copenhagen interpretation ended up being, which is this formal mathematical heuristic where it's, you know, really the line was shut up and calculate. If you actually treat it as like an inroad into ontological truth and reality, reality's like way weirder than we think. And then you take the parapsychology experiments like seriously and you're like, okay, this is data, we're not gonna like throw this out. Then all of a sudden, you can have a science

• 2:47:42Speaker 00

  Of like explaining a lot of these synchronicities, a lot of these sort of, you know, mass experiences that seem otherworldly, Allah, what happened in Portugal and, you know, the Fatima sighting of, you know, the Virgin Mary or whatever in, you know, 1917, like, all of these things become more realistic in that sort of world model. So I find that to be an extremely intriguing inroad into whatever's happening in reality. And UFOs would be a byproduct of that. And then a lot of other weirdness in reality would be byproducts of that. But it ends up in a plasticity to reality that I don't think a lot of people really want to face.

• 2:48:25Speaker 00

  It's like sort of a very jarring thought and I understand that. And I also don't think there's a great. So it's like, it's like, you know, we were talking about a buildup of anomalies break the paradigm. So like, uh, black body radiation in the 1870s, you know, didn't, it broke, you know, electromagnetism, you know, classical electromagnetism in a way that you needed quantum mechanics to explain. Same with like the orbit of Mercury. So I would say like the parapsychology stuff is data that breaks, you know, general relativity, quantum mechanics, you know, basic materialist reductionism, but in a way that will be explained by a future theory. But the reason we don't accept it is because we don't have a theory that neatly explains it.

• 2:49:08Speaker 00

  And until you have a theory that neatly explains anything, it's just, oh, it's an anomaly, you know? And so you can explain it away. But I would say we systematically discard those. They're just going to build up and they're going to explode the current paradigm and we're going to get, we're going to get some new thing.

• 2:49:23André Duqum?

  I think the sign of any intelligent human or system is a sort of appreciation of nuance and complexity when it comes to any subject, you know, and there's obviously just so many factors and a topic like this that is so widespread. Who is one person alive and dead today that you think has a novel amount of insight into this topic that you would love to be able to get honest answers from if you were to interview?

• 2:49:48Speaker 00

  Oh, it's so interesting. Hmm. I mean, alive, you know, there are things that like David Grush, for example, or this guy named Hal Puthoff, who I mentioned earlier, who's this physicist, longtime CIA, NSA guy, and he shows up, he runs the psychic spy program in the US called Stargate out of Stanford and starts it. And then he's like, becomes, you know, just shoulder deep in the UFO stuff, popping up in all these sort of UFO research groups, but like official government research groups, and is so implicated in both subjects. I mean, he literally went on Joe Rogan's show and said, like, he contemplated disclosure with George W. Bush and his whole

• 2:50:32Speaker 00

  administration and his national security advisor, Steven Hadley. And they came to the conclusion, it was like too jarring or whatever, shocking to like, you know, let out the truth. And maybe the hermeneutic reading on that is that they themselves, the, you know, CIA doesn't have like, as strong of a handle on this stuff as they'd like. And so that's why they can't admit that this stuff is real. But he's one of these figures who pops up in like, all the, like, okay, you look into this new, interesting, exotic framework of, you know, electrodynamics called extended electrodynamics. So like, okay, Hal Puthoff's there. And then you look into this crazy UFO story and like, Hal Puthoff's researched it. And it's funny, he's a friend of mine, but he's very cheeky.

• 2:51:16Speaker 00

  And I know he like, you know, knows a lot more, he's sitting on a lot more than he can, than he can say.

• 2:51:21André Duqum?

  It's interesting that two people you mentioned are friends of yours.

• 2:51:24Speaker 00

  I know, I know, I know. Well, that's the crazy thing. It's like, I wish there was an ability for them to just go kind of full open kimono, just like, say everything they know, because it would, it would accelerate progress on this stuff so much. I also, I have a friend who also runs a multi-billion dollar hedge fund. And he ran, or helped run the Princeton parapsychology lab for like 10 years. And

• 2:51:56Speaker 00

  He actually coded up this app called SyncText, which is, so he's like, probably like the world authority on random event generators, this experiment that I mentioned. And this app basically creates random messages, just in the way that you have like the random one and zero. And they seem to appear kind of synchronistically in your life. And it's, you can download this, S Y N C T X T dot com. And he is really trippy and interesting, cause he like, he has like, he's one of the few peoples that like, I speak to and I'm like, oh, you don't only have, like, you speak to like, I don't know, there's Dean Radin at like, you know, and a lot of these guys

• 2:52:38Speaker 00

  who have like, a lot of the data around random event generators. But then they have no idea what to make of it, as far as like, a worldview and like, a theory. And with him, you get into some of the more like ontological like truths behind the experiments. Like, it seems like he knows more than he lets on. And so he's fascinating as well.

• 2:53:00André Duqum?

  What, uh, okay, what about Dad?

• 2:53:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, Dad, yeah, yeah. Townsend Brown, for sure. I'd love to speak to him and know, you know, what's, what's, I just want to know his whole life experience and like, you know, I, I already feel confident enough, I feel like to know that the experiments worked somewhat, but like, where did he get thwarted? Where did they go? Like, your question, like, where is it sitting now? That would be so illuminating. And then, I don't know, like a mystical, like, you know, Jesus or the Buddha or something. Like, I feel like somebody reaching that state would be just amazing to be in the presence of.

• 2:53:37André Duqum?

  What about if an alien, like a non-human intelligence were like, allowed you to ask them one question that they would be transparent about? What would you ask that would, I guess, confirm the validity of them? Or you think would most radically deepen your understanding of the reality of this all?

• 2:53:57Speaker 00

  Oh, it's so interesting. And is it only one question?

• 2:54:00André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:00Speaker 00

  I would like interrogate them, like, it's tough as far as like verifying them, right? Because I think our cosmological, you know, worldview is very limited. And so it's like, if you say, when did the big bang happen? Like, you know, I don't know if our understanding of like, like, that's, that's been revised a few times, you know, so.

• 2:54:22Speaker 00

  I don't know, you know, I would probably ask something about like, I would probably assume that like, they're legit. And I wouldn't want to like, you know, I would just say like, if I have one question.

• 2:54:33André Duqum?

  Are you one of the bad guys?

• 2:54:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause like, if you wasted on that, then you're like, okay, that's just like another data point that they're real to begin with. Yeah, or you're one of the bad guys. I'd say like,

• 2:54:44Speaker 00

  you know, what is like,

• 2:54:49Speaker 00

  what is a human being? And what is the role of humanity like in the world? I mean, it's really, those are two questions.

• 2:54:56André Duqum?

  Run on question.

• 2:54:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would cheat a little bit. No, what is a, what is a human? Like, what are, what are we? Cause I don't, you know, science, for the longest time is like, treated the human as this like, mechanical, non exception to the rest of the world. And like, my strong instinct is that there's something about our consciousness that is actually exceptional. And, uh, you know, if they had any insight into that, that would be great.

• 2:55:25André Duqum?

  Let me know if it ever happens, you can come back on here and report. I'm sure you'll go to your platform for it.

• 2:55:31Speaker 00

  I'll let you know. You'll get the exclusives.

• 2:55:34André Duqum?

  I thought of randomly this like, have you seen this series called Pantheon? I think it's on Netflix now. It's like two series. I highly recommend it. The last two episodes, episode seven and eight give the sort of, the show is about like uploaded intelligence and sort of understanding this question of who we are, but really beautiful writing and,

• 2:55:57André Duqum?

  it's, uh, it's fascinating, the sort of example these higher beings at the end give to this nested reality we find ourselves in. And, um, for some reason, you're, you're, the question that you would ask made me think of that moment when they essentially asked the same question to these alien beings, which are essentially them. I don't want to spoil too much, but.

• 2:56:17Speaker 00

  What did they say? I'm so curious.

• 2:56:18André Duqum?

  I do honestly, I don't want to ruin it.

• 2:56:20Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 2:56:22André Duqum?

  You, you would love it. You can also just look up the ending on YouTube. It's pretty sick, but, um, it's cool.

• 2:56:27Speaker 00

  Okay, I'll check it out. Yeah. I feel like it would just be so counterintuitive, you know? Or maybe not. Maybe it's like, I don't know. It'd be disappointing almost if it was just like something expected. Yeah. What would you ask them?

• 2:56:43André Duqum?

  Hmm.

• 2:56:47André Duqum?

  Probably to give me a coherent framework that collapses neuroscience, consciousness and physics into a cohesive model that explains reality.

• 2:56:58Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 2:56:59André Duqum?

  Or something like that.

• 2:56:59Speaker 00

  I love that. That's ambitious.

• 2:57:03André Duqum?

  Yeah, I feel like maybe the more simple approach would actually be better. Like, because I feel like the more detail you would add in the question, it also kind of reveals the boundaries of your epistemics and might actually limit the depth of the answer because you're

• 2:57:22André Duqum?

  you're speaking in a language that is inherently limiting to you. Like, a question that's maybe more open-ended, like, what does a human being allows potentially more depth.

• 2:57:32Speaker 00

  But maybe steel manning your approach, like, they might end up answering in a way that's so unintelligible without guidance and guardrails on the epistemics that you end up trying to translate it forever.

• 2:57:48André Duqum?

  Yeah, it just ruins, yeah, it just lose your mind.

• 2:57:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:57:52André Duqum?

  Like a monkey, like a dumb monkey trying to run around and...

• 2:57:56Speaker 00

  They give you some riddle, you know? Chasing your tail forever.

• 2:58:01André Duqum?

  All right, well, if there's any aliens listening right now, hit your boys up. We've got some questions.

• 2:58:07Speaker 00

  Let's go, yeah. Come hang out.

• 2:58:10André Duqum?

  Oh, man, this is, I could talk to you for another three hours. I think we've been going for about three hours.

• 2:58:16Speaker 00

  I love this, man. I'm down to hop on whenever.

• 2:58:20André Duqum?

  Yeah, we'll have to run it back at another point, man. It's been really cool to see the arc of your creative journey, your journalism. I call them documentaries earlier because they really feel like that, man. You put so much love in your team, probably, like, just you guys put so much effort into producing something that is extremely depth, extremely deep, has like accounting across the board, is very thought-provoking, and I'm just very fascinated to see where your journey goes. I'm sure you are as well, but like, what you continue to create, the information that gets... Revealed in the coming years. And yeah, I think voices like yours are super needed, man. So, thank you so much for coming on and jamming. And I'm just looking forward to chatting more offline.

• 2:59:03Speaker 00

  Same, man. And everything you said back at you, I was telling you earlier, but I feel like I should tell you on air too, that I think what you're doing is super unique and needed. And I really, I can't think of anybody in our generation who's, like you called me, grounded and reasonable. I feel like you're the same, but you're also delving into kind of esoteric spiritual truths and sometimes sifting through snake oil as I am. But in a, in a way that like is bridging, like really, like the knowledge is going to get lost if you don't do it. And I brought up Robert Gilbert as an example. So I appreciate what you said about me, but I feel the same way about you.

• 2:59:44André Duqum?

  Thanks, man.

• 2:59:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:59:45André Duqum?

  It's going to date now.

• 2:59:48Speaker 00

  We're gonna make out.

• 2:59:49André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:59:51André Duqum?

  But no, dude, it's such, I mean, just like, I'm sure you feel it's like such a gift to be able to do what we do. Like it's to be able to go down the path that would just makes us most come alive. And that it gets to be like a gift for others also is so sick. So grateful for.

• 3:00:07Speaker 00

  It's so, we're so lucky. And yeah, it's a, it's a true blessing. Yeah, we get to talk to trippy, interesting people about the nature of the universe all day. It's great.

• 3:00:18André Duqum?

  Navigate the discernment with it all. And it's cool, man. I'm excited to keep chopping it up. Everybody who's listening, I'm so curious what you think about this episode, this conversation. There are so many alternative theories, some of which we didn't even get into, which is kind of hard to believe in a three hour podcast, you know? But it's a topic that I think a lot of people have opinions on.

• 3:00:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:00:45André Duqum?

  Better or worse. And it's fun to explore those. And so regardless, nonetheless, let us know what you thought of this episode. And thank you for being a part of this community. And until next time, be well. Thank you, Jesse. Oh, and last, very last thing, people can stay connected with you and your work. We'll leave links down in the description to your YouTube channel. And anything else you want to point people?

• 3:01:03Speaker 00

  No, that's perfect, man.

• 3:01:05André Duqum?

  Great.

• 3:01:05Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 3:01:06André Duqum?

  Cool. Found it.

• 3:01:07Speaker 00

  All right.

• 3:01:09André Duqum?

  All right, bro.

• 3:01:09Speaker 00

  Love it.