Charlamagne tha God Opens Up About His Depression & Childhood Trauma!

He’s never hidden from the truth or been shy about expressing his opinion, now he brings the same honesty to his rocky journey to fame. Charlamagne tha God is co-host of the American radio programme ‘The Breakfast Club’ on Power 105.1, reaching 8 million listeners each month. He is also a New York Times best-selling author and CEO of the Black Effect Podcast Network. In this conversation, Charlamagne and Steven discuss topics such as his difficult relationship with his father, the moment that changed his whole life, coming to terms with childhood molestation trauma, and how he went from being fired 4 times to one of the world’s biggest radio hosts. (00:00) Intro (01:17) "Get Honest Or Die Trying" (03:09) What Made Charlamagne? (07:56) Charlamagne's Father's Impact On His Relationships (11:11) Charlamagne's Sexual Abuse (15:28) Charlamagne's Troubled Youth (21:16) Role Models For Men (26:58) The Man Charlamagne Wants To Be (29:41) The Route Of Charlamagne's Anxiety (32:50) Reaching Personal Rock Bottom (35:53) Working In The Radio (37:30) Getting Fired 4 Times (41:21) Panic Attacks & Depression (47:17) Dealing With Grief And Suicide (55:13) Charlamagne's Infidelity (57:34) Growing With Therapy (59:32) What's Help You To Heal? (01:01:07) What's The Cost Of Living With The Lies? (01:04:44) Disconnecting From Social Media To Be Original (01:07:00) What's Your View On Trump? (01:10:50) Healing And Rebuilding The Relationship With His Father (01:13:19) How Is Charlamagne Doing? (01:17:06) The Importance Of Living A Life Of Service (01:21:19) The Dangers Of Materialism (01:23:02) Last Guest Question You can purchase Charlamagne’s book, ‘Get Honest or Die Lying: Why Small Talk Sucks’, here: https://amzn.to/4aOVnQZ Follow Charlamagne: Instagram - https://bit.ly/3Vd9daV Twitter - https://bit.ly/3KgGrA6 Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/3kxINCANKsb My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I didn't realize it until I got older. I was just a young kid and I was molested.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Oof, shit.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Please welcome Charlamagne the God. Co-host of The Breakfast Club. And America's most influential radio host.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  Growing up, my father was telling me, if you don't change your lifestyle, you're gonna end up in jail, dead, or broke. The problem was, he wasn't practicing what he was preaching. When I started selling drugs, I found out he was selling drugs. Then he had an affair on my mom, so I became a player. Because I felt I had to be like my pops. But then I ended up getting in a situation where a shooting happened and then going to jail. But I was able to finally wake up. And I was smart enough to realize, whatever I want to be doing five years from now, I gotta start doing now.

• 0:50Steven Bartlett?

  And then the microphone ultimately changed your life. But I didn't know that you'd had 12 years of rejection.

• 0:55Speaker 00

  I got five, four times. I just collected my last unemployment check. I was scared to death, but you can't live life with fear. You gotta live life with faith. Next gig I got was The Breakfast Club. Fast forward three, four years, I'm having more success than I've ever had in my life, but I just was not happy. I was losing myself. And those suicidal thoughts just cross your mind for no reason, you know? And even now, what am I still doing here?

• 1:27Speaker 00

  Man.

• 1:38Steven Bartlett?

  Get honest or die lying?

• 1:42Steven Bartlett?

  Why did you choose those words? Why did you choose that title?

• 1:45Speaker 00

  It's a play on 50 Cent's Get Rich or Die Trying. You know, I'm always gonna have, you know, some old hip-hop, you know, somewhere. Like, my last book was Shook One, you know, that was paying homage to Mob Deep. But also, you know, just talking about how I felt my whole life when I would get panic attacks, get anxiety attacks. And get honest or die lying, that's, you know, not just a play on 50 Cent's title, that's how I truly feel. It's like, yo, if you don't get honest with yourself, you're gonna die lying. Like, you know, I had a... I went to a spiritual retreat, you know, back in February, me and my wife. And like, that's one of the things that came up for me, you know, that, that, that weekend at the retreat.

• 2:26Speaker 00

  One of the things that came up for me was stop lying to yourself and stop volunteering those lies to others. And I think a lot of us do that, you know, a lot, like we, we lie to ourselves. And then we just volunteer those lies to other people, like nobody even asked us, you know? When I think, I think social media, you know, contributes to a lot of that. Because every day you feel like you have to, you know, feed this beast. And like, you know, you might go look at your feed and at some point you gotta ask yourself, who is this person? You know, or just, just the things that you, you know, say to people, you know, in your life.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  As you're, as you're, as you're just, you know, growing and, and evolving just as a human. You might just volunteer lies, you know, for security purposes or the mass, the mass insecurities. Or, you know, the mass fears. And so it's just like, yo, if you don't start getting honest with yourself, you gonna, you gonna die, die a liar.

• 3:29Steven Bartlett?

  The truth and the lies start young for all of us.

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 3:32Steven Bartlett?

  Especially if you look at the stats for black men. Because they are much less likely to get to the point where they can get honest with themselves in their whole selves. Their mental health, everything. When I read through your story, I met an individual that I never knew before. I've watched The Breakfast Club for years and years and years. I've probably watched it for a decade, I think, something, something like that. It's always been my connection with US culture has been watching that show. And I watched the guy that was a bit of an antagonist to the guests coming on. But I never knew all of the other stuff. And you're one of the only black men that I encountered, especially in the United States, that has a big sort of public figure. Who has been so unbelievably honest about what it is to be a complete man and the complete human experience.

• 4:16Steven Bartlett?

  And your complete experience that starts very young. If I am trying to understand the man that sits before me right now. Where do I have to start to truly understand?

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Oh, you got to, you definitely got to start from the beginning. You know, you got to start from that single wide trailer, you know, in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. You know, growing up as a young man, you know, to a great, great father and a great mother. I say great, you know, now in regards to my father because I understand him as a man. You know, there was a period in my life, you know, especially when I first started going to therapy, I didn't know if I even liked him as a person, you know, because you know, you got to question yourself. You question things that he did to you growing up, you know, just, I always said, my dad raised me out of fear and not love. But the fear was just from the standpoint of he didn't want me to, you know, make the same mistakes that he did.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  He didn't want to see me make the same mistakes that he saw a lot of people in our town making. Like, you know, the one thing that he used to always instill in me was like, if you don't change your lifestyle, you're going to end up in jail, dead or broke, sitting under the tree. And I think that's what happens with kids a lot, right? Like kids, they end up mirroring, you know, the parent. And I think sometimes when you see yourself, you know, in your child, if you made a lot of mistakes and, you know, you bumped your head a lot of times, man, that'll probably terrify you to see your child going down that, that same path. So for me, my journey would definitely have to start in Moncks Corner, South Carolina, in that, in that single wide trailer on that dirt road.

• 5:52Steven Bartlett?

  You grew up in a, a single trailer in a, a dirt road with a father that seemed to be pretty absent from what it says in your book. You, you talked about him raising you there, but it sounded like he very much also didn't raise you.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  No, he was absent in the sense of he had his own issues that he was dealing with, you know, and I didn't find that out until, you know, 2018. When I put out my second book, Shook One, Anxiety Playing Tricks On Me, where I really opened up about a lot of my anxiety and a lot of my depression and going to therapy. I, I'll never forget it. It was Thanksgiving, it was the week of Thanksgiving 2018, and I had a younger cousin.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  He was like twenty four, twenty five years old. He tried to complete suicide four different times. And on the fourth time, he completed it. And it was the week that he completed it. And then on that, on top of the fact, my father had just read my second book. He said to me, he called me and he said, you know, he talked about my cousins and he talked about my book. And he said, man, I was going to therapy two and three times a week. And I tried to kill myself, you know, thirty plus years ago. And, you know, I was on ten to twelve different medications for my mental health. So when he said that to me, I already knew that he had the substance abuse. I knew he dealt with the substance abuse issues, right? But I knew that, but I didn't know the other aspect of it. So when I realized that, I'm like, oh, I get it.

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Because my dad was absolutely, you know, there when he was, you know, sober for the most part. When he wasn't dealing with his own issues. But when, like I said, the way he raised me was out of, was out of fear, you know, more than love. But he definitely, you know, had his foot up my ass, like on, you know, in a, in a real way. Just because he didn't want to, want me to make those, those same mistakes. But, you know, I always felt like, growing up, we didn't have the kind of relationship I wanted to have. That I would think a father and son would have. But that's only because he was dealing with his own issues.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  And then he started, you know, having a, an affair on my mom. So he really wasn't in the house then. Like he was, you know, off, off with his, his new family.

• 8:03Steven Bartlett?

  At what age were you?

• 8:05Speaker 00

  It had to be like ninety, ninety eight. So maybe I was nineteen, twenty. I probably might have been like nineteen, twenty when he, when he like left the house.

• 8:17Steven Bartlett?

  I, I think, can we model our sort of earliest relationships? We model our idea of relationships based on the relationship we first see with our parents. I think about my own, my mom's Nigerian, my dad's English, a household that was very loud, to say the least. And I always thought my dad was in prison. So growing up, I never had a relationship because I thought women were like, I thought it was prison. And it was only until I got to about thirty years old that I had a real relationship. But then I've had to go to therapy with my partner over and over again to get out of like being triggered by this idea. Like whenever we have conflict, I'm like, run. Because I always wanted my father to run from my mom. So same, same like I had that deep in me that relationships were prison. And when I read through your story and looked at your father and, you know, his infidelity with, with your mother,

• 8:59Steven Bartlett?

  I was wondering how that impacted your future perspective of what a relationship is.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  Oh, it had me, it had me bad for a while because, you know, I've always been the type of person, I like being with one, one partner. You know what I'm saying? I like being with one woman. Like, that's something that I always thought was really cool growing up. Probably because a lot of the images that we saw, especially on TV back then, it was always the nuclear household. It was always like the, the mother and the father, whether it was, you know, the Cosby Show or whether it was Martin and Gina, you know, whether it was, you know, the Winslow's on Family Matters, like, you know, whether it was the, the Evans on Good Times before James died, whether it was the Jeffersons, like you always saw, you know, a black man, you know, with a, with a, with a black woman and they had a family. Like that was what I always, that's what I thought the American dream, you know, consisted of. So that was like always something in my mind that I wanted. And then, uh,

• 9:49Speaker 00

  I remember when I found out my pops are cheating on my mom and I remember just confronting him about it and just asking him. I never forget it. He was in my, um, in my room of my mom's house and I used to have like this, one of those exercise bikes in the room. And he was riding, he was on, he, he wasn't working out, but he, he came in to get on the exercise bike because I needed to talk to him. And I brought it up to him and I remember him just saying to me like, yo, so, so you only got one woman, huh? Looked me right in the eyes, that's what he said. He was like, you only got one woman, huh? And I was like, what do you mean, I only got one woman? He was like, huh, you know, he's like, when you get older, you understand. Like, literally. So planting that in my head just made me feel like, am I doing something wrong? Am I supposed to have, you know, one woman?

• 10:30Speaker 00

  So I spent like a large majority of my life trying to, trying to show him that I was like a player. I was like, I was like my pops. I was like, you know, I was, I, I, I had, I had, I had, I had a roster too. Right? Only for him to come all the way back around to tell me I always had it right.

• 10:52Speaker 00

  Literally, to only come back and tell me, you know, one of the worst mistakes he ever made, you know, was, was, was, was leaving, leaving my mom or, or causing my mom to leave him, however, which way it went. And I, I remember him saying that to me and he just was like, man, you know, you, you, you, you've always had it right. But that just kind of, that shows you, right? Just because somebody is older than you, you know, doesn't mean that they're, they're right. Doesn't mean that they're always correct. Like, we're always growing, we're always evolving if we allow ourselves to. And, you know, we're gonna figure out later on in life that, yeah, we did make a mistake, you know, doing whatever it is that we were doing. And we should be able to admit that no matter the age and correct it no matter the age.

• 11:32Steven Bartlett?

  Eight years old, your cousin's ex-wife had a sexual encounter with you. And you talk about these sexual encounters changing your personality thereafter.

• 11:45Steven Bartlett?

  When did you decide to speak about this? And, and when did you begin to learn the implications that that one instant, sort of incident when you were that age had had on you throughout your life?

• 11:56Speaker 00

  Well, I used to always make jokes about it, right? Cause I, you know, I used to always say, um, you know, I, I, I used to always say that, I used to buy these. They used to be like these little firecrackers that were like these little poppers. You could throw them on the ground and they would pop. And so it's like, one day I just started throwing them at her, cause I didn't want her to touch me. And um, when, when I did that, she started calling me ugly, like literally from that moment, like, oh, you ugly, you got a big nose. You know, she'd be telling everybody, look at his nose, I think his nose is swollen. So like, to the point where my grandma, God bless her dead, would like take cream and put it on my nose to try to reduce the swelling. It wasn't swollen, she was just messing with me. So in my mind, it was like a psychological thing. Like she was, she was, she was messing with me mentally. And how old was she? I don't know, you know. She was thirty, forty, fifty?

• 12:40Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, she was definitely older, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you were eight? I was eight, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, I remember hers, I remember her uh, me telling people, the reason I made her stop is cause I didn't like the smell of her jerry curl. So that was always, that was always the joke. And I remember watching Tyler Perry on Oprah Winfrey Show. And I remember watching him cry over an older woman who molested him. And I remember thinking to myself, what's wrong with him? Cause the way we rationalized it in our mind, is like when you young, you just used to talk about it like it was a sexual encounter. And it was, when I think about it now, like I had like me, and like, you know, three of my other younger friends,

• 13:22Speaker 00

  and all of us were talking about these sexual encounters we were having with older women. So now that I think back on it, I'm like, damn, we all was getting, you know, molested. You just don't look at it like that when you're a young man. When you look at it, when you're a young man, you look at it like, I'm just getting action early. So when I saw, you know, Tyler on Oprah, that's when I first started like thinking about it. And I remember, this was, I forgot what year this was, but this was way, way, way back in the day. But I remember there was Twitter and I remember tweeting about it, but I was tweeting about it in jest, like, you know, like wondering like, what the hell's wrong with Tyler Perry? You know, but then I had to start asking, well, what's wrong with me? That like I, that I'm not reacting to being molested the way that, you know, he is.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  But then, you don't even realize that it's molestation till you get old. At least I didn't realize it until I got older. And I was like, oh, I was getting molested. And then, when you start going to therapy and you start peeling back, you know, the layers of that, that, that trauma, you start realizing. Oh, this is why I am the way I am in regards to pleasing people. Because I felt like even though what she was doing to me was wrong, and it made me uncomfortable, and I didn't like it, I had to keep doing it so she'd stop calling me ugly. Because her calling me ugly was really, really, really hurting my feelings. You know what I mean, as a young eight-year-old kid? So that's, that leads to you being an older adult

• 14:49Speaker 00

  who's a constant people pleaser because you don't want to let nobody down. Because, you know, if you let them down and they'll talk bad about you, you know, but that you realize you got to set those boundaries. Because if those people are going to, if, if making, if you making yourself uncomfortable is the only way to please said individual, that individual don't need to be in your life. That's not somebody that you have, have, have in your, your circle at all.

• 15:16Steven Bartlett?

  You've never gone back and found out who that person was and that, done anything about it?

• 15:20Speaker 00

  No, I still.

• 15:22Steven Bartlett?

  You, you still see her?

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've seen her, I've seen her, I've seen her around in my hometown, absolutely.

• 15:27Steven Bartlett?

  You're not interested in?

• 15:29Speaker 00

  Nah, last time I saw her, actually, she came up to me, this was about, mm, let me see, it's 2024, this probably had to be before COVID. You know, she came up to me at, at, at a house party and she was like, oh, you so handsome. And I was like, you, you been thought I was handsome. Beat it.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  Like, you been thought I was handsome. Like, knock it off.

• 15:49Steven Bartlett?

  Your, your behavior becomes problematic. Fifteen years old, 1993. I watched, I sort of read through from you were fifteen up until you were sort of early twenties, up to sort of twenty-three years old. And there was quite a shocking pattern of behavior involving drugs and other things. I, I was wondering.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Not that early. Fifteen, I was still in, I was still in high school. So I was, I was, I was, I was, the disciplinary problem from, started in middle school. It started when I was in like seventh grade. And the disciplinary problem started just because, you know, my older cousins were like, what you would call, I guess, bullying me, right? Like, they would, I, I was wearing glasses and I had the fanny pack and I was in like, what they had, they, they used to call it, uh, the classes were broken down in letters. So it was like A. A and C were for like the smart students, right? So I was in like the A class. And it was only like two black people in the class, two or three black people in the class, right? Rest is all white. And so like I would be with a lot of white people for the most part.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  And like my cousins who were all from my daddy's side of town, they would bully me, like literally, like they would just beat up on me because I'd be with all the white kids. Because my dad is like a, was a really cool dude, you know? Like he was like a, the guy who always had like the small little sugar shack where you come over there and get your alcohol and stuff like that. And, you know, he used to hustle his drugs, stuff like that. People knew my pops. My pops was a cool dude. So they, they thought I was supposed to be like that. So being that I wasn't like that, they was like, they would bully me. And it just became one of those things where it was like, yo, if you can't beat them, join them. So it was like, yo, my glasses fell off my face, you know, one too many times. And like that one time where they fell and they just broke for good,

• 17:34Speaker 00

  that's when I broke for good. And I was just like, you know what? If I can't beat them, join them. So I, I just started hanging with them. And like in order to hang with them, I had to be, I guess, like worse than them to prove myself in a lot of ways. So that's when like the disruption really started in class. That's when the, the class clown, you know, really started to happen. And that just evolved into me getting left back a couple of times. You know, I think I, I went to summer school twice in seventh and eighth grade. Then I got left back in ninth grade. And that's when I actually had to stay back. And then by the time I got to, by the time I got to 10th grade, I was getting kicked out of the school I was in, Berkeley High School. And they transferred me to, to Scrufford High School where my mom taught.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  Because they thought if I was at my mom's school, then I would act better. But most of my problems from that point on started to be in the street, more so than, you know, in school. And so I ended up getting a. In a situation where I was with, you know, some of my homeboys and a shooting happened and we all ended up going to jail and they actually came and arrested me from Stratford High School. And that's the last time I was in a, a, a high school.

• 18:47Steven Bartlett?

  And you sat in jail for three months?

• 18:48Speaker 00

  No, it was like forty, I think forty-five days, something like that. Yeah.

• 18:53Steven Bartlett?

  Your dad could have bailed you out?

• 18:54Speaker 00

  My dad could have bailed me out, um, but he wanted to teach me a lesson. Like, he wanted me to learn from my mistakes, so he let me sit in there for, for forty-five days. And, and sadly, that wasn't, it, it was a wake-up call, but it wasn't the wake, wake-up call. It was more like I woke up, but then I hit the snooze button. You know, slept for a little, slept for a little while longer before I finally got up.

• 19:18Steven Bartlett?

  As a grown man, you can look back now and think, that fifteen, sixteen-year-old kid, he needed something that he wasn't getting. He needed a bunch of things he just wasn't getting. Because you've got kids now yourself, so you can, if you, if you saw that behavior in your kid, you wouldn't say, oh, I, I, well, I don't know, I'm putting words in your mouth here, but you probably wouldn't think, okay, they need to go to jail and sit in jail for a while. You'd probably look at it and go, there's something unmet there.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Man, that's such an interesting question, because when I do think back on it, I say to myself, I didn't have to do none of that. Like, that's my mindset now. Like, I didn't have to do any of that. Like, um, my mother was an English teacher, she was a Jehovah's Witness, my grandmother was a Baptist, they absolutely taught me better. Like, I absolutely positively knew better. I had the example of my father, you know, if my father had been probably more honest with me about, um, his life and, you know, the things he had went through and who, who, who, who he was, then I probably would have seen a lot of those obstacles coming. Because I got to the point, even when I started selling drugs, when I found out he was also selling drugs, you, you can't tell me not to do it.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  You know, like, you, like, you can't be on some, um, don't do as I do, do as I say type stuff. I remember us having that conversation. And he was like, well, this is my house, so you're not gonna be doing that in my house. Like, because you, you making me hot. Like literally. And so I feel like, you know, for me, I was just a young, impressionable kid who wanted what every single human being wants, and that's just simply security. And if you don't get security, you know, from people, you will, you will find a way to get it. So me, you know, becoming that, that version of myself I was then, was that was just literally for security. That was for survival.

• 21:08Speaker 00

  Like, I was just literally a kid that was tired of getting bullied. But, you know, once you get down on that path, you know, if nobody stops you, there will be things that stop you, like jail, you know, or sadly, in some cases, death, but then it's too late. So I just always thank God that, you know, even though I, I got caught up and I made those mistakes, I was able to, you know, finally, you know, wake up.

• 21:32Steven Bartlett?

  I've sat with Buster Rhymes and Ashley Walters, and they talk a lot about their fathers, and they also talk about the absence of male role models, often for, for young black men, and how the, the impact of that. I've actually come up to learn the impact of that by having these conversations over and over with black men that didn't have a, a male role model in their life that could stop them from going down that path. And I don't think it's talked about enough.

• 21:57Steven Bartlett?

  Cause, cause I've learned about it from Buster Rhymes and from Ashley Walters, from Top Boy. And it's really made me think that there's something we need to think more of in society, especially for people that have sort of single parents or have an, an absent father or an emotionally absent father. I think we could save a lot of downstream consequences with mental health, crime and all of those things if we thought more about the importance of male role models.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I, listen, I, I had, I had a, a, a male role model in my father, but the problem with my father was he wasn't practicing what he was preaching. So, you know, you have to be about actions. You can't just be about words and lip service. People have to see you and, and, and see that you're, you know, a, a living, walking example of what it is that you're telling others. Like, you know, I didn't even believe that men could be faithful to their women until I started seeing it. From people that I actually knew, like, and you know, it's, it's, it's, it's one thing for somebody to tell you they are, but like, let's just say, you know, you're, you're, you're

• 23:01Speaker 00

  out and about at, at a television shoot and you know, you're out of town, right? And you and this person or these people are hanging around after the shoot and their wife is nowhere in sight and they got every opportunity to do the wrong thing, but they're like, nah, I'm going back to my room. You know what I'm saying? I love my, I'm, I'm gotta get home to my wife. Like, nah. And then you're, where you, that's when you strike up conversations like, really? Like, and then like, nah, I'm faithful. You know what I'm saying? Like literally, like those are the conversations. Like, nah, I'm faithful. I don't, I don't get down like that. And you're like, oh, all right. That's respectful.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  You know? So it's just like, actions speak way louder than words, man. And I, and the thing I love about the era that we're in now, you know, this is the first generation, we're the first generation of, of, of people that I feel like we have the luxury of healing. The people before us, our parents, you know, I'm 45. My, my parents, they were just scratching and surviving. They were just trying to figure it out. They were just trying to, trying to make it. They were trying to keep some food on the table and a roof over their head. We are the first generation that has the luxury of actually healing. And I think that's a beautiful thing.

• 24:18Steven Bartlett?

  So true. There's a lot of role models emerging now on the internet. You know, you think about like the Andrew Tates of the world and all of those conversations. And at the same time, what it is to be a man has become quite unclear in many respects, like gender roles. And there's a lot of, because of, you know, we're in the, the post Me Too movement where a lot of inappropriate behavior was called out. And it's funny, a guy came up to me in a gym, Lifetime Gym, just down the road from here in Brooklyn yesterday, came up to me, 25 year old kid wearing a Barcelona shirt, tapped me on the shoulder, said, I love your podcast. I listened to it a lot. One question, he goes, I'm 25 years old. He goes, where do I find male role models? And I remember I was with Will in the gym and I just remember thinking that's so interesting because I'm getting that conversation over and over and over again. I think what he's actually saying is like,

• 25:04Steven Bartlett?

  What is a man in 202014? And who do I model myself on? Because there is a lot of, you know, if you go on like Twitter, there's a crowd of people that are saying Lamborghini, 17 women, Rolex, loads of money. And I'm not necessarily sure that's a great example either. And then you look at the stats around suicidality amongst men. In the UK, where I'm from, the single biggest thing that has the chance of killing you is suicide. If you're over the age of 18 and under the age of 45 as a man, it's yourself. And I just think if we put all this in context, this sort of like looking for role models, masculinity is really unclear. We've called out men. Do we need to call them back in?

• 25:49Steven Bartlett?

  What matters? Have you got a young son?

• 25:52Speaker 00

  No, I got all girls.

• 25:53Steven Bartlett?

  You've got all four girls, Dan?

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, me and my wife got four daughters. I guess it just depends what you're trying to model. Like, we use that term role model, but what does the term role model mean? Because, you know, you can only model yourself after what somebody shows you. You can only model, you know, yourself off what somebody presents. So if you like that person's Lamborghini, if you like that Rolex, if you like the clothes that they got on, if you like their jewelry, then you're gonna say to yourself, okay, that's what I want. So that's what you're modeling. You're not necessarily modeling the man. You're modeling the man's things.

• 26:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  You know, you might as well be a mannequin. You might as well be, you might as well be looking up the mannequins, you know? It's hard to like really, you know, model yourself after somebody's, you know, personality, after somebody's morals, after somebody's values, after somebody's beliefs, because you don't necessarily know exactly what they are. And especially on social media, you just know what people present. So you gotta be very careful of that. Like, I would tell people, man, you know, yeah, if you admire something about a person, cool, you know, let that be like a guide for you, so to speak. It gives you, it's like a flare going up in the air. So you kind of know which direction you may want to go. But you don't know that individual.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  The only individual that you will ever truly know is you.

• 27:18Steven Bartlett?

  What kind of man do you want to be? Are you trying to be with the therapy, with the work you've done with your books, etc. What are you, what kind of man are you trying to be?

• 27:26Speaker 00

  A good man.

• 27:27Steven Bartlett?

  And what does that mean?

• 27:28Speaker 00

  Um, just somebody who is who they say they are. Like, that's what I always tell people, and that's what I constantly tell myself. I want to be who I say I am. I want to be who, you know, if you, if you see me, um, saying something, if you see that, that I'm telling you that this is what I believe in, if I'm telling you this is my truth, I want you to know that that's exactly who I am. Like, you're not gonna, you know, hear something in the future and be like, "Oh, my God, this dude had a whole other life going on." And, you know, "He had this going on over here and that going on over here, and nobody ever knew about it." No, I'm a, I'm a faithful husband.

• 28:12Speaker 00

  You know, I am a, a learning father. And the reason I say learning is because you, there's no class on being a parent. None whatsoever. Anybody tells you that, that they got that figured out, they are lying. I got a 15-year-old, an eight-year-old, a five-year-old, and a two-year-old. And every single one of them, you know, challenged me and my wife in completely different ways. And there's been plenty of times when me and my wife sit around, you know, late at night, or at dinner somewhere, or just sitting around talking in the bed, asking ourselves if we're getting it right. So, like, there's no, you know, blueprint or no manual on how to be that. But I just want to be, um, I want to be the adult that I feel like I needed when I was a child. You know, I want to be present.

• 28:58Speaker 00

  I want to be, I want, I want to raise them out of love, which is very hard, especially being that I deal with, you know, really bad anxiety in a lot of ways. And I talk about parental paranoia a lot. And, you know, you just have to, man, you have to let go and let God. It's, like, I'm a faithful person because I have no choice but to be. You know, I, I'm an optimistic person because I have no choice but to be. Like, you know, the, the opposite of... You know, fateful is worry. The opposite of fateful is doubt. And like, you can't raise kids in that way. Because they got, they gotta live their own life. My fifteen year old, she wants to go hang out. I can't worry about what may happen, you know, at the mall.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  And you know, you, you open up a newspaper and you see all types of crazy stuff happening in the world. And you see crazy things happening to other people's kids. And you know, you just look like, yo, I don't want my, my child to ever get caught up in anything like that. But man, Sally, that's just not your call. And you just can't live life like that, man. You can't live life with fear. You gotta live life with faith.

• 30:02Steven Bartlett?

  With all this work you've done on your mental health to understand the anxiety and the bouts of depression and so on, have you been able to pinpoint the causal factors of it in your early years?

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. I mean, being, being molested at eight was definitely, definitely part of it.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  Definitely the bullying, you know, early on. Definitely wanting, wanting my father to raise me out of love and not fear. One of the main things that I, I realized when I had like one of my first breakthroughs in therapy was when I realized my dad used to discipline me for things he never taught me. Alright, so I remember one, one example I always tell is like I had just got my driver's license. And so he told me to follow him somewhere. And he was like, follow me, do what I do. Like, alright, driving, he's driving. And we're coming off Gil Yard Road in Moncks Corner, South Carolina, about to get on the highway.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  Highway is Highway fifty-two. So we're driving and we get to the stop sign, but he doesn't stop. He just drives onto the highway. So I drove onto the highway, you know? And he pulls over to the side of the road. I pull over to the side of the road. What I didn't notice was, you know, you're coming down the highway, you're driving. He, he drove like maybe, not, I don't wanna say a split second, but like several seconds before a car was coming. And so I came right behind him, so the, the car had to swerve out of the way. I didn't even notice that. So he tells me to pull over. He pulls over, so I pull over. He gets out the car, he comes in the window, slaps the shit out of me. Right? I'm like, he's like, wake up. That's all he said.

• 31:48Speaker 00

  I'm just sitting there like, I mean, I think about that now, but there's no teaching in that. Where was the teaching in that? I ain't even realize what I did wrong. You told me to do everything that you did. You literally said, do what I do. You ran the stop sign, so I ran the stop sign.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  And then, once you slapped the shit out of me, you don't even tell me what I did wrong. So that's why I said my father used to discipline me for things that he never even taught me. So I think that's where a lot of the insecurity and anxiety and, you know, imposter syndrome, that's where a lot of that comes from, you know? And the bouts of depression, I don't, that's probably just some, a chemical, a chemical imbalance or something. Cause like, that's just, I constantly have to pump myself up. And I do that through prayer. I do that through, you know, daily affirmations. You know, I do that through like, um, just constantly telling myself I belong, you know? And that's something, I remember being young, my affirmation used to be, I love Jehovah God and this son, Jesus Christ. And I would say that three times.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  And then I would say fuck Satan. And I would say that three times. And that is what used to get me like, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready for the day. I'm ready for whatever, you know, the, the day is going to deliver me. So yeah, it's just all of those things from my childhood contributed to those issues.

• 33:10Steven Bartlett?

  At some point, it appears that you reached a sort of personal rock bottom in those sort of early twenties. And you made a decision to, that enough was enough. And I find that so interesting because I sit here with so many people who reach that moment where they, they look at their lives and they go, listen, look, look at what I'm doing with myself. And some of them carry on going and they're probably not around to sit in the chair. And then some of them hit that rock bottom moment and they go, I can't carry on doing this with my life. And they make a decision to take at least one footstep in some positive direction. And that starts to compound for them. Is that accurate? Is that an accurate description of what happened in my life?

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Cause I, cause I, cause I learned early that everything my father was saying was true. So my father was telling me, if you don't change your lifestyle, you're gonna end up in jail, dead, or broke under the tree. I actually saw that starting to happen to not just myself, but people around me. So, you know, I had my stint in jail, but then I had people around me that was going to jail for like five years, like they were going to jail for actual prison sentences. And, you know, I had people around me that were dying, that were actually, you know, getting killed. And I saw like, you know, people that I used to once look up to, who were older than me, sitting under the tree, literally doing nothing with their lives, like becoming that next generation of, you know, people who just sit under the tree all day and drink or do drugs or whatever it is.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  So I saw that happening and I was just one of those kids that was smart enough to realize, man, whatever I'm doing today will directly impact what happens in my life tomorrow. And that's always, that's been my mindset since I was, you know, early 20 years old. Like whatever I want to be doing five years from now, I gotta start doing now. Literally, that's always been my mindset. And so, you know, when I finally got that break to find the internship in radio, like just being in that environment, being around that in 1998 as an intern, literally made me say, okay, this is what I want to do with my future. Before that, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

• 35:14Speaker 00

  I was going, speaking of male role models, like I had, you know, Uncle, Uncle Henry, he worked at UPS. I'm like, all right, maybe UPS is the move. I had one of my mother's cousins named Bruce, he was in the military. Okay, maybe being in the military is, is the move for me. Like I was just trying to figure out, you know, what I was going to do with my adult life. And, you know, I started working a bunch of odd jobs. I did, I did telemarketing, I worked at a clothing store called Demo in the Mall. I worked at a warehouse called Industrial Acoustics. I worked at a flower garden, I worked at Taco Bell for a couple of weeks, because my sister was the manager there. I was just trying to figure things out. And at one point in my life, I worked at Demo in the Mall with my now wife.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  I worked at the telemarketing place and I had stumbled upon an internship, probably like a year prior, which was at the radio station in 1998. And then around 1999, I actually started being on the air. And once I started being on the air, it just started to let me see what the future could potentially look like.

• 36:14Steven Bartlett?

  Up until that point, did you have high hopes for yourself and your future?

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, because, because, because I thought I was gonna be a rapper. Cause you know, most, most young black men, you know, from the hood, you know, in the late nineties are from the rural, rural area that I was from in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. You know, when you look on television or you open up these magazines, the people that you see that are successful are usually in rap, hip hop, in some way, shape or form are athletics. And so I thought rapping was gonna be the way to get up off that dirt road in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. That's why, you know, I got, I got a tattoo on my arm. I got Wolverine from the X-Men tattooed on my arm, holding a microphone in his hand.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  I got this tattoo when I was like, I don't even know, like eighteen, nineteen, something like that. And I, and I got it made by a dude named T Willis. T Willis was a tattoo artist in South Carolina. Tattoos weren't even illegal in this time. But I, I got, I got, I got it, I got it tatted on my arm in his apartment. And the reason I got Wolverine holding a microphone, cause I always loved Wolverine, because I loved his healing powers. I loved that he was able to heal quickly from things. This is, this is me at eighteen, nineteen years old, not knowing anything about no therapy, not knowing anything about, you know, the future journey I would go on of healing. This is just me back then, being a young comic book lover, loving the fact that Wolverine had these healing powers.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  And I had him holding a microphone, cause I thought the microphone was gonna be, you know, what changed my life, which it ultimately did. I just thought it was gonna be through, through rap music.

• 37:51Steven Bartlett?

  The microphone ultimately changed your life. I also didn't know that you'd spent this really long stint on the radio from sort of twenty years old, doing that internship, right up until The Breakfast Club, when you're thirty-two years old. So that's twelve years, but it's not just twelve years of work and graft and mastering your skill. It's also twelve years of rejection, getting fired over and over and over and over again.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  I got fired four times. I got fired from four different radio stations. I got fired from Hot 98.9 in Charleston. I used to do radio. I started my career at Z 93, which I'm back on now, which is the actual heritage station. So The Breakfast Club is broadcast on Z 93. So I'm back on Z 93. But I left Z 93, which was the big heritage station in Charleston, to go work for an up and coming station called Hot 98.9, simply because, you know, my man George Cook, who's still a great mentor of mine to this day, he offered me a full-time radio gig. I was on Monday through Fri- Monday through Saturday, 7 to midnight. I had to take that, making what? I don't know, $19,000 a year or something like that. But that felt so good back then because I was able to show my mom a contract and say, "Look, I'm making a salary.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  I'm making $19,000 a year," right? Like, that just felt good to say that I had a job that I had to be to, you know, every day. And not just a job, a job that she knew about because she would hear me on the radio.

• 39:12Steven Bartlett?

  What did your father think?

• 39:13Speaker 00

  Oh, he loved it. Like, that was, I mean, even when I was on Z 93, that was a big deal because Z 93 was the heritage station. Like, that was de-station in Charleston. So that was a big deal for him.

• 39:23Steven Bartlett?

  Was he surprised? Having shared a jail cell with you at one point, seeing your delinquency through that period of your life, was he surprised?

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Hey, you know what's interesting? I've never had those conversations with him, even to this day. Like, I've never had like that conversation with him, like... Nah, like, you know, he might tell me he's proud of me, stuff like that, but we've never had like an in-depth conversation. Like, my mom, like, me and my mom have had like those in-depth conversations. Like, my mom has told me things like, you know, "You've accomplished more than, you know, anybody in the family ever thought about accomplishing." Or she'll show me like the taxes. My great-grandfather, her father. Yeah, her fa- was it her father? Yeah, her fa- her father, my grandfather.

• 40:17Speaker 00

  She would show me like the taxes that he would have to pay on their land. So like, just to put things in perspective, you know, for me. And, um, yeah, like, she's, like, I shared things with her. Like, I share with her how much I'm making or how much I made doing something. I share things like that with her. And, um... Yeah, she's, she's, she's, she's very always supportive and, you know, lets me know like, she's proud of me. I remember she, she gave me the best advice a long time ago. She told me, just be happy you're making a living.

• 40:51Steven Bartlett?

  Straight up. Survival generation.

• 40:52Speaker 00

  But, but she, the way she said it was basically, basically saying, you know, this is how you stay humble. She was like, just be happy that you're able to make a living. And she's right. Cause you know how hard it is for some people to make a living? Like, like seriously, it's just, it's hard for some people just to be able to afford some, some wings from the grocery store. Like it's hard for, people can't afford daycare. Like things like, like just little, small, simple, everyday things that, you know, you and I may be able to just take care of. There's a lot of people out here who can't. So you should very, you should very much be happy just to be making a, a living. So her telling me that, you know, puts a lot of things in perspective for me.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  And then that's kept a lot of things in perspective for me. But nah, me and my pops have never really, we've never really had those conversations.

• 41:42Steven Bartlett?

  Thirty-two years old, you, you joined the Breakfast Club, which is the first time that I, I saw you, um, heard about you, was entertained by you. But before you joined the Breakfast, Breakfast Club, something else became really sort of front of mind in your life, which is anxiety and panic attacks. And you talk about the, the first sort of panic attack you had while you were driving down into state twenty-six in South Carolina?

• 42:03Speaker 00

  I twenty-six. That, that was probably the first really, really, really major one. Um, the first one I ever had was definitely in first grade. I'll never forget that. Remember your elementary school? I don't, I can't forget that to this day. Like my mom dropped me off first day of school and I just could not calm down. I mean, bawling, tears, screaming, like, like, ah, I could not stop, you know? And, and now when I think back on it, I'm like, oh, that was, I was straight up having a panic. Like I remember the look in my mom's face, like, what is wrong? Like, what's going on? Um, but the one I had then, that was after being fired for the fourth time from radio. I was back home, living with my mom. Uh, like you said, I think I was thirty-one, thirty-two. I don't remember how old I was.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  Thirty-one, thirty-two. My daughter was like one or two. My now-wife was back living at home with her parents in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. And I remember I was driving down I-26, uh, going to Orangeburg to go see, uh, Little Duval at a comedy show. He was at a comedy show in, um, Orangeburg. I forgot what school it was. And, um, yeah, I just remember feeling that feeling that I've always felt my whole life. Heart beating crazy fast, mouth getting dry, palms sweaty, feeling lightheaded, dizzy. Had to pull over, get some water, take a few deep breaths and just told myself like, look, man, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna go to the doctor yet again, cause I, you know, I always would check myself in the emergency room. Whenever I would have those kind of panic attacks, cause I always felt like I was having a heart attack.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  And so I went to the doctor and the doctor was like, nah, you gotta, you, you, your, your heart is fine. You got an athlete's heart. And then he was like, um, he said to me, he said, yo, you, you deal with anxiety? I'm like, anxiety? What do you mean, do I deal with anxiety? And he was like, um, dude, the symptoms you're describing sound like a panic attack. He said, have you had these before? And I'm like, yeah. And he was like, are you stressed out about anything? And I'm like, hell, yeah. Like, you know? And so he was like, yeah, it sounds like, you know, that, that's anxiety, you know? And then he was telling me some breathing exercises I could do to possibly deal with it. And then in my mind, after he said, are you stressed out about anything? The first thing I thought to myself was, all I gotta do is get another job and everything will be A-OK.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  I just gotta get out my mom house, get my family back in position and everything will be okay. Next gig I got was The Breakfast Club. And so you think you fast forward three, four years, I'm having more success than I've ever had in my life. I'm making more money than I've ever made in my life. Everything is going great, but nothing's changed. I'm still having the panic attacks, probably even more so now. I'm still dealing with bouts of depression and I can't figure out why. I just was not happy. And so that's what finally made me decide to start, you know, going to therapy. We started Breakfast Club in two thousand and ten. Then I started going to therapy around twenty fifteen? Twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen?

• 44:53Steven Bartlett?

  How bad did your, your depression get in those early years, those early thirties?

• 44:58Speaker 00

  Oh, nah, they got bad. I mean, it got, it got, nah, it definitely got bad. It got bad to the point where like, I was the guy who, you know, you, I love to laugh, definitely love to laugh, love to joke, love to have a good time, but then like, yeah, those suicidal thoughts just cross your mind for no reason. Like, literally, for absolutely no reason, like, you know, you, it would, it would, now's a good time to end it all. Like, just literally, randomly, and you're like, what was that? You know, and even, even now, sometimes, it'll, it'll cross your mind. And it definitely crosses your mind a lot when you have, like, I had a friend who committed

• 45:44Speaker 00

  suicide, you know, um, her name was Jazz, Jazz Waters, you know, and called her Jazz Fly, and me and her used to lean on each other a lot, like, she committed suicide during COVID, and her and I used to lean on each other a lot, like, I used to call her like my, my wartime general, like, you know, when it was like really time to, you know, get busy and, you know, really strategize some stuff, that's who I would pick up the phone and call, and we would always have these conversations about, you know, therapy and, you know, depression and anxiety and all of that, from, I mean, deep conversations. I'm talking about, we'd spend Sundays, literally, I'd be in the backyard sometimes, three, four hour phone conversations, right, like, away from everybody, my, my wife, kids, everyone

• 46:27Speaker 00

  just really having conversations, so, you know, when she did it, I remember, um, sitting in my backyard, and, and I heard her voice in my head, and it was like, she, she literally said to me, "You still here?" Like, awesome, like, "You still, like, you still there on earth?" And I was, I got, that, that like, kind of just shook me to my core a little bit, right? And so, it's just like, I constantly do, not constantly, constantly is a, is a strong word, but, yeah, those, those thoughts just cross your mind. I don't know if it's because, it's not because I actually want to do it, or because I'm thinking

• 47:07Speaker 00

  about doing it, but because I've had people close to me do it, and because I had those thoughts when I was younger, sometimes, I don't know if it's the survivor's guilt, maybe, or survivor's remorse of it all, that just makes you... Think about it, like, what am I still doing here? You know? But then I got a million reasons to still be here. So that immediately makes it, makes it go away.

• 47:37Steven Bartlett?

  When, when you have a friend like that, that passes in such circumstances,

• 47:42Steven Bartlett?

  a complex range of feelings. Any, like, I sat here with someone who described that exact same thing to me, their best friend, who had said nothing to them, was always, that was, actually works on radio in the UK. Both of them worked on radio, then his radio partner one day died by suicide, never said anything to anybody, appeared to be fine. And the complex set of emotions that he's left with, the regret, the feelings of what if, what if I'd said something, did I reach out, all of those kinds of things? Is there anything that I could have done, all of those feelings? What is that complex set of emotions that you?

• 48:15Speaker 00

  Man. Yeah, you can't do that to yourself. You, you will. But you can't do that to yourself. Because, like I was saying earlier, when I talked about, you know, modeling, and you say the word role modeling, you're modeling yourself after people. You don't know what's behind all of those layers of a human. Like, we're complex creatures. Like, to me, she was one of the most intelligent, brilliant, creative, strategic human beings I ever met in my life. And she was somebody that, you know, so many of us went to. And I never felt, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, you know, guilt myself with that

• 48:58Speaker 00

  because I know that she would come to me with stuff too. And I would always be in ear for her. Like, I was always there for her.

• 49:10Speaker 00

  But yeah, you, you, you, it is, it's just, to act like, to narrow it down to one emotion is crazy. Like, you know, you'll go through sadness, you'll go through anger, you'll go through happiness, you'll go through frustration, you'll go through,

• 49:27Speaker 00

  thinking about those last moments that that person was here. And you'll be saying to yourself, I, I, I tried. Like, like, like, I tried. That's all, that's, that's, that's, that's what I know. That's what I do know. I know for a fact I tried. Like, it's not like we didn't, you know, you didn't see things. You know, so it's not like we didn't try to get that person all the help and more that they needed, but yeah, it is, it is, it is a very, very complex set of emotions. Something that you can't even really put in words and not even, not something I'm trying to suppress either. Like, you know, it is one of those things you wanna, you wanna constantly

• 50:12Speaker 00

  confront, but it's, it's a, it's just very complex. Cause you wish that you could have, you, what you really wanted, you wish you could have talked to that person that day. You wish you could have had a conversation with that person that day. That's what you really wish, you know, and see where they, see where they were at in that moment. And, and you, and hopefully if you did, cause you all, every, I think everybody would probably do that. Everybody probably says the same thing. I probably say the same thing. Her mom probably says the same thing. Her father probably says the same thing. Her sister probably says the same thing. If I would have spoke to her that day, you know, I probably could have got her in a better place, but that's not the way, that's not the way the

• 50:56Speaker 00

  universe had it, had it designed.

• 50:58Steven Bartlett?

  Your external life changes rapidly when your external, your world, your, everything around you changes when you become a star on The Breakfast Club, but internally you say nothing really changes. If not, if anything, it was potentially worse. The panic attacks, anxiety, the bouts of depression. A lot of people would be surprised by that because there's a bit, as you said, people think that you get the job, you get the money, you get the fame.

• 51:20Speaker 00

  Well, I was, I was losing myself because you gotta think, I'm still in survival mode. I'm still coming off being fired four times. You gotta think what my journey was from 1998 up until that moment. Up until that moment, I'm just coming out of my mom's house, living with my mom in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. Like I'm literally, I'm, I just collected my last unemployment check, right?

• 51:43Steven Bartlett?

  You can't chill?

• 51:44Speaker 00

  Nah, I'm scared to death. Everything that you saw was me.

• 51:51Speaker 00

  Was rooted in fear. It was rooted in, I'm not going back to that. So whatever I have to do to not go back to that, I'm going to do. That's why you see the ruthless, anybody can get it. You know, it's still a lot of pain there that I'm probably projecting on the other people. There's still a lot of hurt there that I'm projecting on the other people. Plus, y'all done tried to fire me out of this business four different times. Y'all thought it was sweet when I was down in Moncks Corner, South Carolina, living back home with my mom. Now all of y'all gotta feel my wrath. Like, literally, that's what I was on. And you know, when you're getting rewarded for that, that fuels whatever that is.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Until you realize, like for me, it was around 2015. You like, this ain't, this is not what I want. How'd you know that? How did you know? Just wasn't happy. And I, like, at this time, now I got two kids. Like, my oldest is like seven at the time, in 2015. And my newborn had just been born. And like, I got married in 2014. So it's like, yo, am I really about to become my pops? You know? Am I really about to become, you know, even though I love this man, I despise the way he, you know, ended up, you know, treating his family.

• 53:18Speaker 00

  Us, treating my mom. And I'm like, yo, am I really gonna be that? Am I really gonna get caught up in this radio, you know, radio star, and I'm putting star in air quotes, lifestyle? You know, am I really gonna get caught up in the women? Am I really gonna get caught up in the drugs? Am I really gonna get caught up in the alcohol? Am I really gonna become a caricature of myself? This caricature that I created, you know, to protect, you know, this vulnerable young man named Leonard? Am I really gonna get caught up in that and completely lose myself? Am I gonna do that? Or am I gonna, you know, get back on the path that I know I'm supposed to be on? Am I gonna get back on that righteous path? Am I gonna do that? So I chose to go. The righteous path.

• 54:02Steven Bartlett?

  Sounds simple. Sounds like it was a one, an epiphany one day, but I, I, that's a man speaking in hindsight there. And I just want to, cause there'd be a lot of people that are in that moment where they're looking at their life going, is this really who I'm gonna be?

• 54:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's not simple because you contend, you, you'll constantly lie to yourself. And I think that's why so many people from the street always end up in the same situation. Like there's nowhere you gonna go in any ghetto America, USA, any rural town, USA, where an older person isn't gonna tell a younger person, you keep living like that, you gonna end up in jail or dead. My dad added the other one, are broke sitting, broke sitting under the tree. But everybody thinks they can beat it. Everybody thinks they can live a certain lifestyle and if they just do this, you know, then that won't happen. Or that person was stupid. That's why they ended up like that. Nah.

• 54:56Speaker 00

  You live a certain lifestyle, you move in a certain way, all of y'all gonna meet the same fate. And it's no different, you know, um, even in, even in that space, like I was, I was absolutely about to crash. I knew it.

• 55:09Steven Bartlett?

  How?

• 55:10Speaker 00

  Just in, I just, I just saw it coming. Like a crash to me is losing your family. You know, your, your, your, your wife leaving you. Like, I don't want that. Like, who wants that? I don't envy those type. I don't envy people like that. I don't envy people who, and I'm not knocking them in no way, shape or form, but I don't envy people who, you know, lost, lost their families because of infidelity and now they gotta visit their kids on the weekend, you know?

• 55:34Steven Bartlett?

  You are unfaithful to your wife.

• 55:35Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, absolutely.

• 55:36Steven Bartlett?

  And she's the love of your life. I mean, there's very few people.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  My soulmate, a hundred percent.

• 55:40Steven Bartlett?

  You've been with her thirty plus years or something?

• 55:42Speaker 00

  Twenty six.

• 55:42Steven Bartlett?

  Twenty, twenty six years?

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Twenty six this year. Absolutely. Absolutely. Twenty six years. Like we were kids, you know, and we, we literally grew up together in every sense of the word. Like literally, the first time I ever filled out an application at a radio station, she drove me because my license was suspended. Like, we were together since kids. Like, literally. Like, I was at her high school graduation. I was at her college graduation. You know what I mean? Like, she, like I said, she, the first time I ever filled that application at a radio station, she drove me. Like, she went to college in Columbia, South Carolina. I got a radio job in Columbia, South Carolina. I ended up getting a radio job in New York. She ends up getting a job in New York City.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  Like, our lives were just like that all the time. We couldn't escape each other if we tried. And to be honest with you, I would never want to because, like, that has been the one constant in my life. That has been my muse forever. That has been the person who's constantly made me want to be the best version of myself, even when I wasn't the best version of myself. You know, because when you ask God for certain things, he's gonna give them to you. He or she is gonna give them to you. So when you tell God, like, this is what I want. I want to be with this person for the rest of my life. Or I'm looking for a soulmate. Or I'm looking for, you know, my Hope Brady. Or I'm looking for my, you know, Claire Huxtable. Like, he's going to give you that, but are you gonna be prepared for it when you get

• 57:13Speaker 00

  it? Same thing with any type of success. Yeah. God, he or she, may give you that, but are you prepared for it? I think that a lot of us are, you know, a lot of us get things that we're really not prepared for. And when we get those things we're not prepared for, we don't hold on to them. You nearly lost it. I feel like I did. Absolutely. I feel like I did. It wouldn't have been worth it, even if I would have continued to have success professionally in radio. But meanwhile, my personal life, you know, I lose my wife, I lose my family. That's not worth it. There's nowhere, there's nowhere on this earth where that's a fair trade for me. You start going to therapy, you go twice a week?

• 57:57Speaker 00

  No, I always started off going once a week.

• 57:59Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really? Yeah. When did you start going to therapy?

• 58:01Speaker 00

  Two thousand and sixteen, either late, either late two thousand and fifteen or early two thousand and sixteen.

• 58:05Steven Bartlett?

  Why therapy? Who was, who told you that that was a good idea?

• 58:08Speaker 00

  A lot of people.

• 58:09Steven Bartlett?

  I know a lot of black, black men, a lot of black Americans, period, don't seek mental health care. There's a huge disparity. It's almost a hundred percent difference between white people and black people seeking mental health.

• 58:21Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. A lot of people, I mean, you know, I'm a big fan of the, the TV show Girlfriends. Grew up watching Girlfriends. That's one of my, one of my wife's favorite shows. So when I would go to her, her house when she was in college, she would have that on. And we'd be watching Girlfriends and like, if you watch Girlfriends, a lot of them were going to therapy. That's the first time I even heard of it, right? But then as I got older, talking to different people, and they were all, you know, ranging from, from men, women. Like, I remember having conversations with, you know, Neil Brennan, who's a comedian. And he was in an interview talking about the benefits of therapy. My, my, my young homie, Pete Davidson, you know, he was talking about it, you know?

• 59:00Speaker 00

  My, my homegirl Debbie Brown, like she was really into it, like not just therapy, but just all different facets of healing. Like if you know Debbie Brown now, like you, you'd understand why she was on that back then. Like she's one of the leaders in the mindfulness, you know, mental health space right now.

• 59:18Steven Bartlett?

  What's helped you to heal? What's, if you look at the like toolkit you've used, my girlfriend's alternative healing breathwork practitioner, super spiritual. She's helped me a lot with all of my, all of that stuff.

• 59:27Speaker 00

  All of it, brother. I didn't, I, I, therapy, meditation, breathing exercises. I didn't do Reiki, I, you know, I got, I got crystals at home, you know? I do plant based medicine. I, I like all of it.

• 59:41Steven Bartlett?

  Ayahuasca, psilocybin.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  I've, I've, I've, I've, I've done, I've done an ayahuasca journey. That's, that's when I, that's what I was talking about earlier when I said I went on a, a spiritual retreat.

• 59:51Steven Bartlett?

  Ah, really?

• 59:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, early this year and that was.

• 59:53Steven Bartlett?

  Peru or South America, was it or somewhere else?

• 59:55Speaker 00

  No, no, no, I did it, I did it, I did it here in the States. It was, it was a beautiful, beautiful ceremony. And it was. Man, it was very, very, very life-changing. Like, that's where I got the revelation. The revelation was, you know, stop lying to yourself and stop volunteering those lies to other people. It's like, yo, whatever, um, wherever you're at in your life, like, for me, it's just like, I want to show up and be my authentic self at all times. Like, me, that's what I want to do all the time. And no matter where I'm at in my life, I want to present that.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  And being on that journey, it literally ripped away every single ounce of falsehood that existed. It, like, it just shattered it, like, bah, that gotta go. Like, I watched it in my mind, like, go up in flames, like, like, literally. What's the cost if we live with those falsehoods and those lies?

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  Depression, you know, probably constant anxiety, you know, a whole lot of insecurities, a whole lot of imposter syndrome, because, you know, I'm from the country, so I believe in simple sayings like, God can't bless who you pretend to be.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  You know, and I think that constantly, we gotta, we gotta constantly check ourselves and make sure we're always showing up as who we are and we're not pretending to be, you know, some version of ourselves. That's why, that's why you read Get Honest or Die Blind. I talk so much about social media in the book, because I'm watching so many people lose themselves to social media. Like, I'm talking about intelligent, well-educated, well-read academics are literally losing theirselves to social media. You can have conversations with them and you realize, like, all of their talking points are coming from social media. Like, their, their thought process is being dictated by social media.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  These people care more about their relationships online than they do their actual relationships offline. Like, I know people who... Our personalities who have like, you know, podcasts or who may have YouTube shows, you know, and these people will literally be on Twitter all day, be on Reddit all day, listen to what, listening to what people are saying about them, reading what people are saying about them and crafting their thoughts just to talk to them in that crowd to just please them. I'm like, my God, how narrow minded is that? That's why for me, man, if you're, if you, if you claim to be an academic

• 1:02:38Speaker 00

  or you claim to be a well-educated person, you came, you claim to be a, an intelligent, book smart person, I don't think you're that smart if your emotional IQ is that low. If your, if your emotional IQ is so low that people on social media can dictate how you move, how you think, how you talk, you're not a smart person to me. Smart people know how to disconnect from that. And smart people know how to go, you know, do some meditation to make sure that their thoughts are absolutely positively their own. Like I got people right now today hitting my phone, trying to tell me how they feel about the new Kendrick Lamar record. You know, I love Kendrick Lamar. I think he's fantastic. I think Mr. Morale and the Big Steppers

• 1:03:20Speaker 00

  in the future is gonna be known as one of the most hip hop, one of the most important hip hop albums of all time, that one and Jay-Z's 444. But people are hitting me, telling me their thoughts and telling me their opinions and I'm blocking all of that because I listened to the record and I listened to it five or six times. Same. I know what I got from it. I know what I feel about it and I'm not letting y'all change my mind. Okay. But they're doing that because they know that tomorrow, when I'm on the air, I'm going to be talking about it. So they're trying to curate my thoughts and they're trying to push my thoughts in a certain direction. I don't want that. And I'm not even, I'm, I'm just using that record

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  as an example because it's the freshest thing on my mind, but I don't, I'm, I'm like that with anything. I need my own clarity. I need to, I need to lean into my own discernment. What is my spirit telling me about this situation or this moment or this thing? That's all I care about. I don't care about any of that noise that exists on social media.

• 1:04:26Steven Bartlett?

  That's that's given you a real big competitive advantage in many respects. Because originality is so valuable.

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  That's right. You're 100% correct. That's why I laugh at a lot of these individuals. Because what also happens is, you know, they start whispering about me, right? And they start wondering, well, why, why is this happening for him? And why does he get to do this? And why, why is that like, why is that going on? Like, they look and, you know, because I keep growing. And they wonder why. They wonder why I keep growing and they don't. I tried to tell you, disconnect. How you, how, how are you going to grow when you're not even watering your own garden? Because if, if, if you're, if you're getting on social media and you're reading what they're saying about you

• 1:05:19Speaker 00

  and you're catering all your thoughts and all your talking points to appease those people, you're not watering your garden. You're, you're, you're literally trying to water somebody else's. So as you're, you're, as you're watering somebody else's, that continues to grow and that continues to get louder and louder and louder. But meanwhile, you're just stagnant.

• 1:05:40Steven Bartlett?

  It's scary, though. It's scary to ignore. And then to show up as yourself in a world where we're rewarding conformity with the likes, the claps, the, okay, you won't be canceled because you, you fit in. It's when you say, oh, I'm going to disconnect, I'm going to be myself, I'm going to be authentic. I go, Jesus Christ, that is.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  Man, I get, I get attacked all the time for thoughts, for opinions. Because I don't go along with, with, with, with the mob. And I'm not even, I'm not a contrarian in any way, shape or form. I just know that nothing is black, nothing is white. There's always those areas of gray in the middle. There's nuance to everything. Like, like you, you can be objective about everything, right? Like, there, there, there, there has to be a certain level of, well, let me see where this person is coming from. You gotta hear both sides. To me, that's just common sense. And I feel like the only way to get the real truth about anything is if you see where both sides are coming from. I can't just dismiss you as wrong.

• 1:06:40Speaker 00

  Because you have a different opinion than mine, or you feel differently than mine? I gotta hear where you're coming from first.

• 1:06:46Steven Bartlett?

  There's no political party called nuance. And we're in an election year. I know this as well. I think if I, if I wanted to go viral, I just gotta do a hot take for either side. Because there's algorithms for that. There's a group of people that are gonna pick that up and retweet it and send it. But the people in the middle, it's, there's no, and we're going into this election year now where there's, as I've heard you say, there's really no great choices.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:08Steven Bartlett?

  But on that point you just said about being able to see the other side, what'd you think about Trump?

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  I think that, uh, I mean, I say this everywhere I go. I think Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. You know, I don't think that you should have anybody, especially in the United States, you can't have a leader of a country who says, said, said we should suspend the constitution to overthrow the results of an election. I mean, he, he led an attempted coup of this country. Like, we watched it. We saw it, you know? Yeah, I just don't think a person like that should be president of the United States of America. I think that if you're facing, you know, the type of criminal charges that he's facing, what is it, eighty, eighty-six counts or something like that now? Eighty-six counts, eighty-eight counts? I can't remember the exact number. But if I was facing eighty-eight counts of any criminal charge,

• 1:08:00Speaker 00

  I wouldn't be able to work at Walmart. Nonetheless, you know, run to be president of the United States of America. So I just don't think that he's, you know, he's, he's, he's not somebody that should, should be in that position. But I understand why he is in that position because he's, he's, he's good at messaging.

• 1:08:17Steven Bartlett?

  What'd you think about the people that followed Trump? Do you think they're good people?

• 1:08:24Speaker 00

  Some of them. That was even, even that is a very broad question, right? Like, when you say, what do you think about the people that follow Trump? Those people aren't monolithic.

• 1:08:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:33Speaker 00

  All of those, all of those people, those seventy-plus million people who voted for Trump, a lot of them voted for Donald Trump for, for a lot of different reasons. I have actual friends who will remain nameless, who I know voted for Donald Trump. And I know they're great people. And they didn't vote, they're not, they're black. They're also black too. And they're not like, they're not black conservatives. They're not in any way, shape or form. They are black, like, pro-black individuals. And like, that's what I mean when I say having conversations with people. Because you get to see why people do, you know? Different things. I know why that person told me they voted for Donald Trump back in,

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  you know, 2016. Just like I know individuals now who tell me why they they voted for him in 2016 or 2020. And you can't just chalk everybody up to being a racist. You know, you can't just chalk everybody up to, you know, not caring about LGBTQ issues or whatever it is. People have different reasons and interests why they vote for people. It might be one thing. It might be one interest that they vote for. That's what they always tell you, right? They tell you to vote your interests. So it's the same thing with a with a President Biden. I can look at a million things that President Biden has done that I do not like. The 86 mandatory minimum sentencing, the 88

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  crack laws, 94 crime bill, all of that. There's a million things I can point to and say I don't like that he did this. But if the if the one interest is to at least protect democracy in 2024, or if you're somebody who got their student loan debt wiped away, that might be it. If you're somebody who can afford insulin now because of President Biden, that might be the reason you vote for him. So it's just like everybody has different reasons as to why they vote for different candidates. That's why you I don't even think the question is fair when you say, what do you think about the people who voted for such and such? Like, I'm not the I'm not the person I vote for.

• 1:10:36Steven Bartlett?

  When we get to speak to those people, we understand their motives. Until then, we kind of misunderstand them. And I think I see that crossover with you and your father because eventually you had a conversation with him. You talked about that conversation at the very beginning of this one, where you finally had empathy for him and his experience and his life. That conversation with your father where you rebuilt your relationship and finally understood him, did that help your healing journey?

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  Absolutely. 100%. Because like I said, I never quite had the relationship with my father that I I wanted to. And I mean, it's not too late. He's still here, right?

• 1:11:11Speaker 00

  But yeah, it did because I realized in that moment that he was just a man who was just doing his best. And he didn't have the tools that I have. He didn't have the resources that I have. Even though he was going to therapy two and three times a week, even though he was on the ten to, he was on ten to twelve different medications. The state of South Carolina just started giving him a check. We used to call that a crazy check back in the day. You just get a check for being crazy. Like, I knew people who used to play crazy to get a check. I remember when I went to my mom and said, yo, did you know dad was going through all of this? And she was like, yeah, I just thought he was playing crazy to get a check. So it's like all of those, you know, if I would have known when I was young, if he would have told me all of those things when I was young, then I probably would have ended up on a totally different path much earlier.

• 1:11:55Speaker 00

  I guess that's another example of like, you know, role models, right? Because I think another time, a lot of times when we say role models, we think it has to be just about all the good a person is doing. But if a person has dealt with a lot of the things that you're going through, because a lot of this stuff is genetic, right? Like, if a person is dealing with their own anxiety, if a person is dealing with their own, you know, bout to depression. My father, he was already in therapy. He was already on ten to twelve different medications. He tried to commit suicide. If he would have told me all of that when I was young, I would have known what I was dealing with. I would have been able to be like, oh, okay. I'm, I'm dealing with that. Same way you can see it in your kids.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  You can, when your, when your kids are dealing with those things, you can look at them and be like, okay, I know, I know what that is. Because, you know, I went through that. To me, that's being, that's good. Even though my dad was dealing with all those issues, but him, if he was just telling me when I was young, if he would have just told me when I was young, this is what he was dealing with, then that would have been a good model for me to follow. Because I would have known what it is I need, you know, to do much, much earlier than I did.

• 1:13:05Steven Bartlett?

  My last question before we go to the book for you. This is a question that I think is central to why, especially men, don't really talk about their feelings. Or at least, it's a question that I think we often just diminish, which I wanted to ask you, a very simple question. We ask each other this question every single day, which is, and please do give me the long answer. How are you doing?

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  Right now, I'm doing great. I am blessed, black and highly favored. I'm doing fantastic. You know, I just came, I just had a fantastic weekend, man. Like, we were in Atlanta, Georgia, because I did my second annual Black Effect Podcast Festival, because you know, I have a podcast network called The Black Effect, and you know, we're the home of, you know, like, thirty various podcasts, you know, everybody from The Eighty-Five South Show, The Horrible Decisions, to, you know, Carefully Reckless with Jess Hilarious, you know, All the Smoke with Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson. Like, we have a bunch of different, you know, podcasts, and we just had our second annual Black Effect Podcast Festival in Atlanta. And it's such a beautiful

• 1:14:09Speaker 00

  event, because podcasting is such a, such a new industry. And to be able to curate a space where it's like seven or eight of your favorite podcasts onstage, people are from eleven to seven o'clock at night, eleven a.m. to seven o'clock at night, we got all the food trucks, we got the vendors, we got the merchandise, like, it's a festival. So to be able to have a real, live podcast festival, to be doing it for the second year in a row, to see this, you know, community of creatives, you know, just come together for the day, that's very fulfilling to me. And, you know, another thing we do during the festival is

• 1:14:53Speaker 00

  we, we bring three people out from HBCUs, because, you know, Nissan is one of our sponsors of the, sponsors of the festival. So we bring these three kids out from these HBCUs, because another event that we do throughout the year with The Black Effect is called the Thrill of Possibility Summit. And we fly fifty HBCU students to Nashville, and we just have a weekend of, like, panels for them. And we have different, you know, people who went to HBCUs, who've gone on to have tremendous success in the world, come and just pour into them all weekend long. So we had those three individuals come speak. HBCUs. Yeah, historically black colleges and universities. So we had three people from the summit come to the Black Effect Podcast Festival, just to talk about the summit and,

• 1:15:35Speaker 00

  you know, how fulfilling it was for them. And then we're doing it again this year. And the reason that gives me such a high is because, man, I'm all about service, man. Like, that's what I'm about at this point in my life. I say all the time, if I'm building things, whatever I build nowadays, if it only benefits me, it's not big enough. And the things that I'm building now, you know, whether it's my Black Effect Podcast Network, whether it's, you know, the company me and Kevin Hart got at Audible called SPS Productions, whether it's the, you know, the booking print, Black Privilege Publishing with Simon and Schuster. I'm able to provide so many people opportunities. Like, we got staffs and, you know, we got presidents, you know, of our, of our, of our companies. Like, and, you know, we're able to partner with people

• 1:16:18Speaker 00

  and, you know, write book deals and podcast deals and all of these different things. So it's just like, that is what is fulfilling to me. And then being able to take those resources and do things like the Thriller Possibility Summit. We're pouring into these HBC, HBCU students. So I got a nonprofit called the, you know, Mental Wealth Alliance, you know, where our goal is to get 10,000 black and brown people free therapy over the next five years. I do an expo every year. I think I'm on my, like, my fourth year, fifth year of that, called the Mental Wealth Expo here in New York. It's a free event. I bring some of the best psychiatrists and therapists and spiritual leaders and...

• 1:16:52Steven Bartlett?

  I've seen it.

• 1:16:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:53Steven Bartlett?

  I own the domain name mentalwealth.com. So if you want it for free, you can have it. I was gonna do something with it. I bought it five years ago for enough, I bought it five years ago for a project.

• 1:17:01Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:17:01Steven Bartlett?

  And then I saw you post on Instagram an event called Mental Wealth. I was thinking, damn, I've got this domain name and he's doing something with it. So you can have it. It's just sat there.

• 1:17:09Speaker 00

  Oh, man.

• 1:17:10Steven Bartlett?

  We'll send it over to you.

• 1:17:10Speaker 00

  That would be fantastic.

• 1:17:11Steven Bartlett?

  No, I saw what you're doing. It's incredible. I can't think of a better reason to, for someone to do with that, that domain. So, yeah.

• 1:17:18Speaker 00

  So that's all, so to answer your question, I'm doing great. And the reason I'm doing great is because I realized that, um, your true purpose in life will come through service to others. Dr. Wayne W. Dyer says that in The Power of Intention. I read that years ago and didn't understand what it meant. I'm talking about, I got, I read this 20-plus years ago and didn't quite understand that, what that meant. Your true purpose in life will come through service to others. I overstand. What that means now.

• 1:17:48Steven Bartlett?

  That's not the way culture's gone. Culture's become less religious, less community, more about yourself, your own goals, your own individual being, less about others, less about higher power. And it's so interesting because as I've had these conversations over the years, I was religious until I was eighteen years old. My mom's religious, I was baptized, raised in a Christian household. And I lost that religion and with that you lose the church. And then social media made me more individualistic, get the Lambo. I was this broke kid, dropped out of university, trying to get the Range Rover Sport and the mansion. I got those things, the anticlimax, something's missing, going in search of more. And I've almost found myself right back at the beginning again, going, I said it yesterday, I was like, damn, I wish I was still religious. But what I'm searching for is what you've said, I'm searching for service in my life.

• 1:18:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I grew up broke. So when you grow up broke, I grew up, I grew up broke, but I grew up watching my grandma, even if, you know, we didn't have much, she always knew how to whip up a lot of food.

• 1:18:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:42Speaker 00

  And so whoever was in the yard could come to my grandma's house and eat. Same thing with my pops, my pops was the guy who like, they all like frying fish. You here, you gonna eat, you know, hey, we got drinks, you gonna drink. So to me, that was service, that was early versions of service. So I've always, you know, known that, you know, you gotta, you gotta give to receive. Like, that's just how I, how I grew up. So being that I never had much, you know, growing up, um, I just always felt like that was the way for me to show up for people, like do something for them. And now that I got, you know, a lot of resources, that's just amplified, you know?

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  Like, I really, I, I used to look at people that would put philanthropists in their bio and be like, what, what, all you're doing is giving money, like, what does that even mean? But now you're like, I understand, I get it. When you can go to your mother's alma mater. South Carolina State University and say, I am starting a scholarship fund in my mother's name, the Ford Family Endowment Scholarship, and I'm going to donate this amount of money, a large amount of money, right? And you can look it up and see how much it was. I mean, by the way, it wasn't that large because Mr. Clyde Murn, who's a congressman here in South Carolina,

• 1:20:08Speaker 00

  I remember the day that we did it, we were both donating money to South Carolina State University because that's where his beautiful wife Emily went. She's from my hometown. He literally said to me, you should go first. And I was like, no, no, no, you go first. And he was like, no, you should go first. And I was like, no, you should go first. And he was like, no, you go first. I'm like, all right, so I went first. You know, they hold up my check. I'll say it was a quarter million dollars, right? Blessed, I'm happy to be able to receive that, I mean, to give that. Mr. Clyde Murn goes up and it was like 1.3 million.

• 1:20:39Speaker 00

  And I was like, you were right? And I'd see why you wanted me to go first. But my point with all that is the fact that I'm able to do things like that.

• 1:20:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, man.

• 1:20:49Speaker 00

  That means the world to me. And that's literally what I just want to do for the rest of my life. I want to be able to provide opportunities to people. I want to be of service. That's it. That's all we're here for.

• 1:21:04Steven Bartlett?

  It's selfish and selfless at the same time, and both of those things. Because as you said, you said by giving you get so much.

• 1:21:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:21:12Steven Bartlett?

  And there's only so much you can get from a Lamborghini, right?

• 1:21:15Speaker 00

  I've never wanted that in my life. And you know what's so crazy? I used to say that when I was broke. And when you say it when you're broke, you sound like a hater. Like you see a nice car and like, I don't want that. Well, you can't afford it.

• 1:21:26Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:27Speaker 00

  You know how when you know you really mean that? When you can afford it and you still don't want it. I don't want it. What the hell am I going to do with a Lamborghini? What am I going to do with a Bentley? What am I going to do with a Phantom? Like, what, why does that need to be in my yard?

• 1:21:40Steven Bartlett?

  You know what, I have to say, but we don't have, especially like, I grew up on rap videos. I grew up on 50 Cent on MTV and all that stuff. And that was modeled to me and it's modeled to a lot of young black men as success. And it's so nice to hear people like you say, listen, you don't, that's not, that's, in fact, you're doing yourself a disservice because it's a, some of those things are really bad use of your funds. Like, go and invest. A lot of these other, a lot of other people have a dad at the table who's an investor and knows to put it into a this investment fund or this investment fund. And I think some of our role models growing up said, okay, if you get that kind of money, you go spend it on champagne in a nightclub and something else which is going to make it go to zero.

• 1:22:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, most of that stuff is rented too. Like, when you look at those rap videos, most of that stuff wasn't even, wasn't even theirs. So, yeah, I've done that. I've, I've, I've gone to Miami and, and my partner, E-Class, salute to E-Class. He's the, the founder and CEO of the licking restaurants in Miami. He tossed me his keys to his big Benz back in the day and I drive it around Miami. I'm cool, I get my fix. I don't need to have one of those at home. You know what I'm saying? I don't need it. Like, that, that stuff does absolutely, positively nothing for me in any way, shape or form.

• 1:22:48Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you in the diary of a CEO is,

• 1:22:59Steven Bartlett?

  what are you most afraid of feeling?

• 1:23:04Speaker 00

  Ooh, shit.

• 1:23:07Speaker 00

  Grief. Grief. The grief, the grief of death. Hundred percent. Hundred percent. The grief of death. That's the thing that like, if I was an actor or an actress, I would never be an actress. Well, I mean, I guess I could be in 2024 if I wanted to be. But if, if, if I was an actor, that, like, you know, they tell you that you gotta cry on cue. Like, it's, it's, it's that. Like, that, that, that's the thing that I dismiss out of my mind because it's just certain things. Like, I always say, the things you want to happen in your life, you constantly think about and you speak about. The things you don't want to happen in your life, you don't think about, you don't speak about. Your thoughts creep up on you, but when they do creep up on you, you just gotta push them out.

• 1:23:50Speaker 00

  But for, definitely for me, man, it's that feeling of, um, that feeling of, of, of grief when somebody close to you passes. Like, like, that is. Man, I've had some like really traumatic things happen to people that I genuinely love. Like, you know, I haven't lost a parent. God bless, you know, not going, I haven't lost a parent. Um, I haven't lost a mate, you know, a wife, a significant, I haven't, that hasn't happened to me. But I've had that happen to people who are very, very, very, very close to me. I haven't lost a child, God bless, you know.

• 1:24:32Speaker 00

  So, yeah, people that, people that have had, have experienced that, I truly, truly, truly, truly, truly feel. I mean, I know that we all will, that I hope I don't, I hope my kids bury me, you know, I mean, I hope my, my wife buries me. But, um, yeah, that's, that's the feeling that I don't wanna, wanna feel. Even though I know I probably will at some point in life, a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time from now. But nah, you don't, you don't, you don't wanna feel that.

• 1:25:08Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you. Thank you for, for so much. I think, um, I can't imagine how many people's lives and relationships you've saved by making the, what many people would consider the brave and vulnerable decision to speak, to speak about your own struggles and to, as you've said, step into an authenticity. That's what you do in this book, but that's what you've been doing long before, long before you came here. You've been doing that for years now and it had an impact on me. Imagine that I'm thousands and thousands of miles away in my own room. I'm feeling anxiety for the first time in my life and I see this man who I love watching, he's an entertainer. I see him of all people, cause he's a black man and black men never speak on these things. I see him speaking about it and I go, damn, this isn't me being broken.

• 1:25:52Steven Bartlett?

  This isn't something that I should hide. This isn't something that I should be ashamed of. This is something that happens to all people and it's not evidence of my inadequacy. It's actually evidence that I'm a human being too.

• 1:26:02Speaker 00

  You're human, man. Like, there's not, there's nothing inadequate about any of us. Like, we're literally all spiritual beings living a human existence. And that human existence is, is, is, is gonna go through a lot. But at the end of the day, like I think you said it earlier, man, we all gotta return back to, to, to spirit. Like, I, I love, uh,

• 1:26:25Speaker 00

  I loved the movie, well, not the movie, the book, American Gods. It became a TV show. And, you know, in the book, American Gods, one of the new gods was the internet. It was like internet boy, social, social media. And I think that too many of us, man, are submitting our will to the internet. Literally, we're submitting our will to the internet. And if you talk to anybody who works in Silicon Valley, they'll tell you that the internet, it literally thrives off the seven deadly sins. The seven deadly sins, it thrives off of those. It is fueled by the seven deadly sins. So if you're submitting your will to something that is fueled by the seven deadly sins, then what are you fueled by?

• 1:27:09Speaker 00

  And you wonder why the anxiety is so crazy. You wonder why the insecurity is so crazy. You wonder why the imposter syndrome is so crazy. You wonder why the depression is so crazy. It's because you're worshiping that. That should be a tool. That's what you should treat it as, a tool. Like, you wouldn't walk around with a hammer in your pocket, and you wouldn't be pulling out that hammer all day and just looking at it and staring at it. You wouldn't be pulling up that screwdriver all day and just looking at it and staring at it. So why are we doing that with our phones? Why are we all in verbally, you know, abusive relationships with social media? We'll literally go, especially when you're a public figure.

• 1:27:48Speaker 00

  You'll go on these pages just to read people talk about how bad you are. These are all people that are dealing with the same things you're dealing with. The hurt, the pain, the anxiety, the depression, the insecurity, the imposter syndrome. They don't, it brings them joy to talk like that to you and hope that it gets to you in some way, shape, or form. So why are we letting that in here? We can't have all these conversations about mental health and not really, truly be protecting our mental.

• 1:28:19Steven Bartlett?

  Amen. Yes, sir. Everybody needs to go get this book, Get Honest or Die Lying. And I think it's been one of the biggest inspirations for me to really get closer to being my authentic self in every sense of the word. And it's also made a really good case to me as to the power of that authenticity. Because people say, oh, be authentic, whatever. And they say that's part of their, like, virtue signaling status games. But it's so clear to me that it's one of the greatest services you can do to yourself and those that matter most to you in your life. I'm going to link this book below. Everybody needs to go and buy a copy.

• 1:28:48Speaker 00

  And don't forget the why small talk sucks part. That is actually the most important part to me. Because what we just had here was a macro conversation. And I think a lot of times, you know, in this world that we live in, we're having too many small conversations. Like, we make micros macros. Like, literally. And then, once again, that's what social media does. It takes these micros and it makes them macros. And you don't realize that they're micros until you get out into the real world and you walk up to somebody and you're talking like, hey, did you see such and such? And that person's like, no, I didn't. And you're like, what do you mean? It's trending number one on Twitter. And they're like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

• 1:29:33Speaker 00

  Like, that's literally the world that we live in. So when I say why small talk sucks, I'm not just talking about, like, when somebody's trying to make chatter with you. You know, I hate that, too. I can't stand it. But I'm talking about just those small conversations, those small conversations we have. We're talking too small, we're thinking too small. So this book is literally giving you some things to just simply talk big about, to think, to think big about. That's why I end every chapter by saying, let's discuss. Because I'm not an expert at anything.

• 1:30:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:05Speaker 00

  I'm not an expert at nothing. I just got some experiences and I got some thoughts and I put them in that book and you read them. And next time you find yourself in a situation where you feel like the conversation is too small, I want you to say, yo.

• 1:30:17Speaker 00

  Charlamagne, Lennard, he said, we don't gotta do this. We don't, we can, we can sit here in silence. Uh, we can talk about this in this way. In this large way. And hopefully, you know, when you start doing that, you'll start having more fulfilling conversations like uh, this one I just had was with you.

• 1:30:37Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you so much. Thank you so much. You're an honesty, you're a massive inspiration to me in every sense of the word. And uh, you're so right about the small talk. I, I think my relationship wouldn't exist after five years if I didn't figure out how to start having big talk, uncomfortable conversations with my woman. Um, and that's changed my life. It's made me a better, it's made me better inside my head. And it's, it's saved the thing that I care about most in my life at the moment, which is my relationship with her. And a lot of men, they don't have the tools, they don't have the role models and hopefully, you know, they can look to you and this book now as a, as that guidance and that framework for, for how to model ourselves in such a way. I have to say, I have to shout out your podcast as well, The Brilliant Idiots, because one of my favorites, I was watching the other day when you, you guys were talking about all the, the Drake, Kendrick, stuff like that.

• 1:31:19Steven Bartlett?

  And he was doing that little white thing and saying about the, the, it's just so hilarious and it's the best combination of podcast hosts.

• 1:31:25Speaker 00

  Andrew Schultz is the best stand-up comedian in the business today.

• 1:31:28Steven Bartlett?

  I think he is the best. I, I bought his pay-per-view for his, when he did the online thing. It was incredible.

• 1:31:32Speaker 00

  Oh, the infamous?

• 1:31:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:31:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:31:36Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you so much. Really, really appreciate it.

• 1:31:38Speaker 00

  Appreciate you, brother. Thank you.