American Amnesia with Tressie McMillan Cottom

Tressie McMillan Cottom is back on the podcast. Tressie, Trevor, and Christiana discuss Donald Trump’s Tesla infomercial at the White House, the psychology of the American voter, and why so many of us unwittingly vote for candidates whose views are actually the opposite of ours. The three also explore our tendency to not appreciate what we have until it’s gone, and how that ties into America’s current war on women.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Trevor Noah?

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• 0:35Trevor Noah?

  This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. You know what's really frustrating? Knowing the exact information you need is somewhere on your phone, but still ending up wasting your time digging through five different apps just to actually find it. Thankfully, Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini intelligence, so it can proactively find the information I need right when I need it. Like my flight info on travel days or my calendar when Eugene texts me to hang out. Oh, sorry Eugene, I'm booked. Learn more about what Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages for users 18 and over, and make sure to check responses.

• 1:20Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, booked forever, forever.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  A lot of politicians, if they're accusing like the Pelosi or the Clinton

• 1:27Trevor Noah?

  Ah, okay.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Really don't know what ordinary people are feeling, right? And for some reason, he's able to be tuned in on the culture wars

• 1:37Trevor Noah?

  No, that's a good point.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  In ways that like surprised me.

• 1:39Trevor Noah?

  He's chronically online.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Yes, he is. I was just about to say, let me tell you what the through line is for me that resolves, I would say about 80% of this for me. And I'm like you, Chris, and I've spent a lot, a lot, a lot of time thinking about this and kind of like holding that voter up in like perverse fascination, like what's happening in there. And I do think your point gets at it, Trevor, which is I'm not sure that understand is the right word. I don't think you need to understand to act.

• 2:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  To be able to observe something accurately doesn't mean you diagnose it properly.

• 2:12Trevor Noah?

  Yes, that's what I mean.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Right? He is the only politician out there right now who says a thing is a thing.

• 2:19Trevor Noah?

  Thank you, that's what I mean.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  That doesn't mean.

• 2:21Trevor Noah?

  This is why I need Tracy around. This is what I need.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Tracy, you came here to be on my side.

• 2:25Trevor Noah?

  No, I'm not on your side. No, I'm not on your side. What I mean is that she articulates, this is what Tracy does brilliantly. She articulates an idea in the, in the most crystal way possible. It's exactly this.

• 2:40Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

• 2:51Trevor Noah?

  Please tell me, did you see the Elon Musk-Trump White House Tesla sale?

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Car sale show?

• 2:57Speaker 01

  No, I didn't see that.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Only thing that was missing was Vanna White.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  No, when was this? Yesterday?

• 3:01Trevor Noah?

  So, literally, it's so funny because we've been talking about Elon Musk on the podcast, all these things. Trump brought Elon Musk to the White House, or Elon Musk brought Trump to the White House.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Who knows? Yeah.

• 3:12Trevor Noah?

  Depending on how you want to, depending on where you think the power lies, right? So Elon Musk is there and Trump's there. They bring a Tesla and Trump's like, I'm buying a Tesla with my own money and, and guys.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Which nobody believes.

• 3:26Trevor Noah?

  And the man did a full-on infomercial. Someone took a picture of Trump's notes. He was, he was handed the sales notes.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:35Trevor Noah?

  So the price of each car with self-drive.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  This is so embarrassing.

• 3:39Trevor Noah?

  And then like a little asterisk, like terms and conditions at the bottom.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:42Trevor Noah?

  Please, self-drive is free, it just needs to be activated on all of the cars. This car costs this much, that one costs this much. For low zero APR for 36 months. I'm like, this is the President of the United States.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:53Trevor Noah?

  Shilling cars on the front. You know what it was for me? If Trump had even a modicum of panache, he would have brought it as more of a, this is American ingenuity.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  That's what's supposed to happen, that's right.

• 4:07Trevor Noah?

  Yes, you go, I just wanted to take a moment to show you why America is great.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:12Trevor Noah?

  And you know Elon here like just like you know just try and find in in South Africa we we used to say like disease it means like it's almost like find a way to like um it's like just a little opaqueness to what you're doing yeah just make a little cool make it a little you know what I mean bring in like three cars but then focus on Elon's one no no no this man full on for this low price one damn offer and then he gets guys out this moment you know Trump only Donald Trump he gets in the car

• 4:40Speaker 02

  He gets so the car is there

• 4:41Trevor Noah?

  The car's there the car's there

• 4:42Speaker 02

  It's on the lawn

• 4:43Trevor Noah?

  The car's in like you know the the front of the White House I guess is where this is right so the car's there they pulled it up and then they get in right and Trump goes first of all Trump's like now I can't drive I'm not cause I'm not allowed to drive I want to be like can you drive I don't think that man can drive yeah but he's like he's like I would drive but I can't they don't allow me not allowed no drive to drive to drive does this whole thing they get in the car and then the President of the United States the man who claims to know where technology economies markets all of it is going he gets in the car he looks at the instrument panel and exclaims like somebody who has discovered a new world he's like wow it's all computer guys he says it's all computer

• 5:28Speaker 02

  So he's never been in a Tesla

• 5:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah but he doesn't say it's all digital

• 5:30Speaker 02

  No it's all computer like your grandma

• 5:33Trevor Noah?

  It's all computer

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Yeah they put computer in car

• 5:35Trevor Noah?

  And he shouts it out to us like we don't know

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Yeah

• 5:39Trevor Noah?

  He's like yeah it's all computer wow you look inside all over you all computer it's a wow this

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Yep that's the man with the nuclear codes for you yeah

• 5:50Trevor Noah?

  Actually I felt more calm I was like I actually don't mind if he had the nuclear codes cause if a man calls it computer if the car is all computer that man cannot launch anything

• 6:01Speaker 02

  You know who's sitting somewhere right now going are you kidding me it is Hillary Clinton do you remember when they made fun of her because she couldn't work the soda machine in a convenience

• 6:11Trevor Noah?

  Oh in a convenience store

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I don't remember where was that on the campaign trail

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Yes campaign trail so you know America you know being a regular American so they go to like a 7-Eleven and I always felt Sorry for her because I do think those machines actually overly complicated. And I really felt a rare moment of deep empathy for Hillary Rodham Clinton because she was like, she's got her cup, you know?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  And it used to be a physical thing. You'd press that.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  The lever, right?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Well, that's not no more. You know that thing now that spins your cup and it does and you mix and flavors and all that. And she was overwhelmed. And they acted like that woman had lost her mind.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Yes, double standards.

• 6:51Speaker 02

  Yes. Now Donald Trump can get in a car and say, computer.

• 6:54Trevor Noah?

  The only one who gets the double standard, to be honest with you. I think every other politician gets nailed for the smallest things. Eating pizza with a knife and fork.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:03Trevor Noah?

  Um, who's the guy who's screaming, yeah?

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Oh, Howard Dean or Howard Dean.

• 7:08Trevor Noah?

  It doesn't matter if you're a man or woman. Binder's full of women.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Women.

• 7:11Trevor Noah?

  You name it. You get, Trump has some, that's why they call him the Teflon Don.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:16Trevor Noah?

  The man does things that no other person could do. Guys, there is no one who could maintain the level of respect that he will still maintain from his people after getting in a car and saying, it's all computer.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree.

• 7:30Trevor Noah?

  If my six-year-old or seven-year-old said that, I would be slightly disappointed because I'd go, but you know that that's not how you say it.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  I would get them assessed. I'd be like, let me get you assessed. Let's find out what's going on here.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, because baby, you've seen the tablet.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know.

• 7:48Trevor Noah?

  That's what I mean.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:50Trevor Noah?

  But also, for me, it was also the, it's because of how Trump likes to paint himself as the pinnacle of, of evolution, you know? I don't know. I get, I get hung up on these things more than I do on him dismantling democracy. Because that to me is almost, I don't know how to explain it. It's almost obvious. Like, he's just doing it. He's doing it. And he said he's gonna do it.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  And he's doing it, right?

• 8:11Trevor Noah?

  Yes, he said he's gonna do it and then he's doing it.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:14Trevor Noah?

  But then there are the small elements where he gets exposed for not being what he pretends to be in upper society. Like when they asked him about immigration and he said, he said, we need to be bringing in experts into, we gotta get, because H1B is very good. H1B1, very good, very important. We gotta bring, we need more people in, like wine experts. I was like, you mean a sommelier?

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:38Trevor Noah?

  Like, if you're in upper society, if you are up in that world. You don't say a wine expert.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:44Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  My quote from him is when he said, "People are dying who have never died before."

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Okay, but to be fair, as a black American, I love that one. Let me just tell you, the number of times I've heard an old black woman say, "They dying like they ain't never died before." I thought, okay, without that one, I can kinda get with.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  People are dying who have never died before.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that one, yeah, we have a deep funeral culture where I'm from, and I was like, I could see that one popping off. Yeah, but think about Donald Trump, are the moments like you, I'm a little obsessed with these moments where he's clearly revealed. And I think a lot about, why didn't that work? Like, right, why didn't that work? Because the great story to me of Donald Trump is, you know, he's New York's version of a country bumpkin.

• 9:29Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  He's not a Manhattanite, he was never accepted here, that's what a lot of his grudge is about. He learned, however, that if he just win enough, they will at least give you a ticket. Right? He knows he's not invited because they like him. But, you know, he learned that, and I think he's just got still, and I hate all the psychological explanations.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Why? Why do you, why do you hate them?

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Oh, you know, because I just think it's very American of us.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Or just because you're a sociologist?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Yes, that's part of it, it's absolutely professional envy, but, because psychologists keep winning, and I'm not sure they got all the answers. You know what I'm saying? But I also think it's like very American of us to think that, oh, it's only true if he really meant it. If there's something deep inside.

• 10:09Trevor Noah?

  Oh, okay.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  And I'm like, it doesn't matter whether he means it, it matters that he does it. And I'm like, you know, I don't really care if it's because he's insecure, or if he, lots of people are insecure and they still don't do horrible things to people. So I think we can kind of over-rely on psychology to excuse away bad behavior.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Um, especially in politics, I'm like, does it really matter if he really hates trans people? Like, why are we so obsessed?

• 10:37Trevor Noah?

  I've heard people have the same argument around Kanye. So they'll go, yeah, okay, fine, he's bipolar, fine, but still, he's doing the thing. Bipolar people who are not doing the thing.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  That's exactly right.

• 10:48Trevor Noah?

  But the one, the one element I keep throwing out is yes, but how many bipolar people are billionaires?

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Yes, it's the billionaire problem.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Well, Kanye, I think he has a brain injury. He kind of went through a car, right?

• 10:58Speaker 02

  I've never heard.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  He's got traumatic brain injury.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  No, I've never thought of it that way.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  To me, it's like, you know, those athletes with CTE?

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Who like kill their wives.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  And it changes your whole personality. I'm like, this guy is a trip.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  He's got traumatic brain injury and bipolar and a billion dollars. Put those three things together. That's why Kanye is.

• 11:14Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's your theory?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I think he's got TBI.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  I can't believe I never thought of that.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  He displays all the traits.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  The violence, the, yeah, the unpredictability.

• 11:22Trevor Noah?

  But I don't, I don't know if, if, yeah, I, I, I'm conflicted on that because I, I often go, how much time should we spend trying to understand how people got there? And I, I almost feel like maybe the two can happen. It's not binary.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 11:36Trevor Noah?

  On the one hand, we can say it's good to understand it because maybe if we understand it, we, and we can try and figure out how to not let it happen again.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:43Trevor Noah?

  You know, but then on the other hand, to your point, we shouldn't be using it as an excuse.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  So my thing on that is I think this might be a division of labor problem, which I mean, like, does everybody need to understand it to condemn it? Right? The behavior? It may just be that, okay, there are people who will puzzle out the how and the why. And then the rest of us, I think it takes a little humility to say, hey, I don't do that. I don't know anything about it. But I do know that he said this thing that I find abhorrent, and so that's enough for me. I think the problem is there are too many people who feel like they can diagnose. So for them that I need to personally understand before I can act.

• 12:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  I'm like, the world's just too complicated for that.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  That's true. I think the thing I am still fascinated by is the Trump voter.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  I'm curious about the psychology of, I'm, I'm, and I know a bunch of Trump voters. You might be surprised.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Where are you hanging out?

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Because people tell me their truth. That's why.

• 12:41Trevor Noah?

  But wait, what are you, what are you fascinated by? What is it that you either don't understand or are trying to understand or, you know?

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Because I think that when he first came to power, the liberal media establishment spent a long time being like, oh, it's because of they're economically disempowered. And then the data showed that they weren't economically disempowered. It said they are afraid of being in these diverse neighborhoods with lots of immigrants. And it kind of showed that, well, that's that's not the neighborhoods they were living in.

• 13:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Like, we've never been able to understand these people. And instead of them diminishing, it seems like there's more of them and there's more consensus. And I think there's lots of simple explanations to why they do what they do, but he understands them.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Right? So I want to understand the people he understands.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  Because he understands his voter more than

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  anybody else in the world.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  I strongly agree.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  He knows he could say they-

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Out of this world.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  He said, I can say they're eating cats and dogs and my my people are not going to care. And he and he knows where the kind of like the, what was it, the third rail is. Like, Trump knows where not to go, right?

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  In ways that-

• 13:45Speaker 02

  We act like he is reckless

• 13:47Speaker 01

  He knows where not to-

• 13:48Speaker 02

  to an unfathomable degree, but I have seen him, sometimes cake walked up to a line that you would assume he would cross.

• 13:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  And he doesn't.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Right. He knew saying black jobs would resonate with like the foundational black Americans on Twitter.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  And they were like, yeah, we know what he's talking about.

• 14:03Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  So he understands them, but many other people don't understand them, especially the Democrats, the people saving democracy and trying to stave off fascism.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Wait, is that what they do?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Well, they claim to be doing.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. That's a follow up question I had personally.

• 14:18Trevor Noah?

  Okay, well, here's two things that I I think of sometimes in that regard. I'd love to hear how you see it, Tracy, because I go, on the one hand, I don't think that his understanding is special. I'll put I'll put it there first. What I do think is, he he is thriving in an environment where everyone else spends more time, to your point, trying to understand things as opposed to just pointing them out.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:39Trevor Noah?

  You with me?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:40Trevor Noah?

  So what I mean is, Trump will go. The immigrants are coming in, too many immigrants. Then the person who's running against him will spend more time going, we need to understand how, you know, people move around the globe and what migrationary patterns tell us about the stability of other countries. You've lost people. So what Trump does really well is, he starts with the problem. And then he goes like, we'll figure out the solution. So let's think of it this way. If you were walking across the road and a bus was coming towards you, bus was gonna gonna hit you. Who would you prefer? The person who says, "Watch out, there's a truck." It's not a truck, it's a bus. Or the person who says to you, "Ah, if you, excuse me,

• 15:23Trevor Noah?

  if you do not vacate the road as quickly as possible, there may be a vehicle that might make contact with..." And what I mean by that is like, there are some politicians I find who spend a lot of time delicately trying to answer a question. Ask most politicians, "So do you think homelessness is bad in California?" Well, you know, I think before we talk about what we need to think of, you see, and then where he's winning is, he's just being blunt.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  But that's not, that's not what I'm talking about.

• 15:49Trevor Noah?

  That's what black jobs is, it's a shortcut to say something.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  But I, I think it's the way he's able to intuit what people's problems are, being a man with no problems, right?

• 15:58Trevor Noah?

  No, but he has them, by the way.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Sure he does.

• 16:00Trevor Noah?

  No, he genuinely believes he has them, that's what I mean, that's the difference.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  His diagn-, but his diagnosis feels right.

• 16:05Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Right? That is what, what I think, by the way, has cut across class and across race.

• 16:10Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  This is what, like, my great aunt is ninety-one, ninety-two years old. And she goes, "No, you are right. He is right. There are a lot of people out there who shouldn't be here."

• 16:23Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  So, remove them. That seems like the most straightforward solution. Now, removing them means violating the Constitution, you know, violating human rights.

• 16:33Trevor Noah?

  Not having enough planes.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  Not having enough planes, right? There are all types of complications to that. But remove them resonates deeply with a lot of people for whom observing the problem is the diagnosis of the problem for them. Yeah, remove problem.

• 16:47Trevor Noah?

  Yes, it's exactly that. The other one I think that we take for granted, especially if you spend all your time in America, is this, and I love this, because I go home so frequently now, I'll be in South Africa, and then obviously I live in America, but I'll go home to South Africa, go back to South Africa, go back to South Africa. The biggest thing I've noticed is... We take for granted that when you give people two choices, they will pick one of the two choices. Right? And then you will spend a lot of time asking yourself why they've picked one of the two choices. But you're not asking yourself what having more choices would have revealed to you.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:20Trevor Noah?

  Right? So let's, let's, let's think of it through the lens of sports. One of the things that I've been most fascinated by in the world of sports is how fervently people support a team. And yet how nuanced they are in their ability to support another team. And what I mean by that is someone will go, I'm a Lakers fan. Who are you? And then the person will be like, uh, I'm an Oklahoma City fan. They're like, okay, you're cool.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, cause you hate who I hate and you didn't lose.

• 17:45Trevor Noah?

  They go, as long as you're not a Boston Celtics fan.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 17:47Trevor Noah?

  As long as you're not a Celtics fan, we're good. Who are you? Oh, you're a Knicks fan, you're a this fan, you're. And that's what happens in sports is even when we talk about football in England, I'm a Liverpool fan. And then when we talk about who we, we go like, if Man City wins, I mean, what's a man, who's a Man City supporter?

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Arsenal wins.

• 18:04Trevor Noah?

  You see, it's a thing. And if Man United wins, it's even more now because it's like, okay, we're in the same region of the. So, so what I think sometimes people forget when they look at American politics is they spend a lot of time going, why did these people choose this? But they don't realize that if there are two choices, they will choose one. And because the parties themselves have become almost like, I don't know what the right word would be, but they, they've almost gone, if you have the issue, we don't have it.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:30Trevor Noah?

  And if you have the issue, we don't have it.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Exclusive.

• 18:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  You care about immigration, so we can't.

• 18:34Trevor Noah?

  That's my thing.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:36Trevor Noah?

  So Democrat, so if I say to you, okay, who is a fan of saying whatever you want? Who would you say?

• 18:41Speaker 01

  Republican.

• 18:41Trevor Noah?

  You see, okay? And if I say to you, who's a fan of lower taxes?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Republican.

• 18:45Trevor Noah?

  All right. If I said to you, who's a fan of um, free healthcare?

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Democrat.

• 18:50Trevor Noah?

  You see, I don't think it should be like this. Politics should, you should not be able to pinpoint just like entire swaths or groups in it. You should be able to say, oh, these parties or these groups or that's, oh, this, this governor believes that. And that one doesn't believe this and this. And you know, you see that graph, I'm sure you've seen it, you know, in all your work, Tracy. If you look at the, there's a beautiful graph I once saw of the overlapping dots of policy that American lawmakers used to have. You've seen it, yeah?

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 19:20Trevor Noah?

  And it shows you how. A West Virginia Democrat

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:26Trevor Noah?

  Was further from the same issues as a New York Republican.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:33Trevor Noah?

  They were like, no, no, West Virginia Democrat was actually quite close to a West Virginia Republican.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:37Trevor Noah?

  And New York Democrat was actually close to a New York Republican. It's just you were like, you were inching. But now because politics has all become national, I think you're giving people two choices. And so someone will go, because most people are single-issue-ish voters.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:51Trevor Noah?

  They'll go, to your point, remove them. Who says remove them? Oh, only one party? All right, well, I guess I know who I'm voting for.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:57Trevor Noah?

  Who says we're keeping the coal jobs? Only one party? All right, I guess we're, we're... Did you get what I'm saying?

• 20:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:03Trevor Noah?

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• 20:48Trevor Noah?

  You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watch. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime.

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• 22:46Trevor Noah?

  I would love, just as an experiment, I would love to see what would happen if you said to Americans... In fact, the New York Times did this as a game once that people played.

• 22:54Speaker 02

  Oh, your belief, like what you actually cared about?

• 22:56Trevor Noah?

  Let me tell you.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:57Trevor Noah?

  The consternation it created at The Daily Show.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 23:01Trevor Noah?

  Was one of my greatest joys. The New York Times came out with a little quiz.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:05Trevor Noah?

  You remember this?

• 23:06Speaker 02

  I do.

• 23:07Trevor Noah?

  And the quiz said, "You, we're gonna give you a list of issues and how you think they should be solved. At the end of it, we'll tell you who you should vote for."

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Yep. It was extremely popular, but maybe not for all the right reasons.

• 23:21Trevor Noah?

  Can I tell you the amount of people who had existential crises? People looking at their phones going, that, that, that can't, I'm, I'm not a Bernie fan at all. What do you mean I'm a Hillary, I'm a Hillary? I would never be a. People were shocked to realize that the person they support doesn't actually support the issues or the policies that they would support. And that's what I mean by you've given people the option. So I would love to see what would happen if you said to Americans.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Oh, that would be amazing.

• 23:50Trevor Noah?

  I would just love to see what would happen. If you said, if you just said in America, like, actually, we think America is polarized binary. But I would love to see what would happen if you gave this country a chance to show how complex its tapestry is. I would love to see what we would learn about people. What are the views on immigration? What are the, don't buffet politics, people. Don't be like, you chose this buffet, you chose that buffet. No, no, no, à la carte, show me your politics. And all of a sudden, we start to get more granular. And we start to see things that we've never seen before.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Because I think the Democrats have now been able to occupy this position of being more progressive on race. And I have not met more racist people than the liberal, the liberal white people in New York who won't even send their kids to public school.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Like, just the, and the really subtle psychological warfare. It reminds me of the racism in England, you know, it's like so.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Oh, it's taken on a lot of the contours of English class-based racism. I think for the same reasons. Class became so important to the Democratic Party because they are trying to serve the interests of a donor class who has a lot of money. While keeping the interests for their identity, we're progressive, we're liberals, aligned with working class, poor people, minority people, immigrants. So to reconcile those two things, right? Think about who you have to be to have both of those things exist for you simultaneously. You gotta be delusional in kind of the same way that English people are who will tell me to my face, we don't have racism here. We do have class, but we don't have racism. As if these are two entirely distinct, but you do, you have to believe that. When you have this like really structured.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  A class system. Formal, that's right. You have this really formal system of immigration, right? And I think the Democrats have oddly kind of a modified version of that for much of the same reasons. Their class politics right now do not align with their race politics. And so you get a lot of people who make do with that for the same reason everybody went nuts over their results to the quiz. I mean, you think about who the typical New York Times reader is. Daily Show employee perhaps. And what they realize is that they have accepted a lot of casual racism in policy.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  So that they could keep their class politics, which is, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I absolutely think we should have more immigrants. We're a nation of immigrants, but I do need local control over my schools. Because I bought a house in a neighborhood that depends upon my kids going and being associated with the kids who do the, the, the, the, right? That's the Democrats' deal. And one of the things that Donald Trump did really well, that they still don't have an answer for, is he pointed out the hypocrisy of that.

• 26:36Trevor Noah?

  He's brilliant at that.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  In the way that you and I always experienced it, because we were always the black people vis a vis the Democrats. So we knew it was hypocritical. But for him to point it out and do it so effectively is part of the reason why I think they are spinning out.

• 26:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, he's done a great job at that. That's where he's really good at saying to you, remember when he said, was that one of like, ask Hillary and her friends about the taxes? And where he goes, well, they don't, why don't, why haven't they done it? Why haven't? He's like, they've had the power, they could have done it. They had the presidency, they had the Senate, they had the House, they didn't do it, folks. They said it's a problem, but they didn't do it. It's so interesting that you point that out, because it was fascinating to see how OkCupid's founders, we're gonna have him on the podcast, were able to see in the data. That liberal people, proud liberal people.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  The most.

• 27:27Trevor Noah?

  Did not act in according to what they said in terms of their views.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  We love that data, by the way, as sociologists say, which we am talking about sometimes. We love the OkCupid data, because our personal lives are the only place left in this culture where we feel safe being racist, classist, elitist, and ableist. Because we say what? It's just our preference. I can't help. Who, you know, gets me going.

• 27:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  That's biology.

• 27:50Trevor Noah?

  This has been my favorite thing is when they get asked this. People get asked this in random forums. They'll be like, cool. They'll be like, cool, white people. Cool, cool, cool. And then someone, because things are so cool, someone will say to them, you know, have you ever, have you ever dated a, a black woman? And the, and the person will be like.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just don't think they had any at my school, you know?

• 28:07Trevor Noah?

  I'm sure. And I love how they, they do the thinking thing like you wouldn't know. People, you don't need to know. If you ask someone, have you dated someone? You don't be like, have I?

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Let me think.

• 28:17Trevor Noah?

  Let me think about, who, who was she? Who was? I'm like, you know the answer.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 28:23Trevor Noah?

  You know the answer. Do you know what I'm saying?

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:26Trevor Noah?

  And I think there's like a, there's like a level of honesty that people aren't able to have. But when it's now gonna be in their personal life.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 28:34Trevor Noah?

  They can't hide the thing anymore.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  That's right. That's why people went really, do you guys remember this moment? I think it was around January 6th, where there was a, a group of young women, probably just internet based, but who admitted to using Hinge and the apps to sort of like catfish Republican men?

• 28:54Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  No, I didn't hear about that.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Right. So there was this thing, they would go, okay, you know, you're never gonna be with somebody hot like me again, uh, unless you change your politics. And so they would like pretend to be Republicans to out them to find out where they were on January 6th. They'd make the romantic match, right?

• 29:13Trevor Noah?

  Wait, wait, wait. Help me break this up. So, so these women went online?

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:16Trevor Noah?

  Okay. And then?

• 29:18Speaker 02

  And I think they're hot. You gotta have that part. Very, very hot.

• 29:21Trevor Noah?

  So these were hot women who went online and they created profiles?

• 29:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:25Trevor Noah?

  And then they linked up with Republican or conservative men?

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Yes. Because they are apparently, according to the data, as you know, they are at a disadvantage on, on, on apps. Conservative men, they all complain about it. Nobody wants to date them.

• 29:38Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Then January 6th happens and I think it started as someone said they recognized a guy they thought they saw on one of the apps once in the videos.

• 29:46Trevor Noah?

  Oh my goodness.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  So the women start going on and going, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that guy. Seen that guy. And so they were catfishing them, pretending to be conservative or interested in conservative men. And then the chat would go, yeah, so where were you last week?

• 30:02Speaker 02

  And it like out it like three or four people, right?

• 30:05Trevor Noah?

  You know, I always say to my friends, I always say this, I go to all of us, I go, guys, I don't know, like amongst us, I'm like, I don't know what our downfall will be, but I know it'll be a woman. I don't care who you are.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 30:18Trevor Noah?

  I don't care who you are, like men, yo, our weakness is women, and it just, you don't know when it comes, you don't know how it's gonna happen. You don't, it might be your business, it might be your marriage, it might be your sports career, it might be your journalism. I don't know what it is gonna be, but they, like, that's why the Bible was so prophetic. See, like, Garden of Eden.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  They were very clear about that.

• 30:38Trevor Noah?

  Yo, Adam was never gonna eat that apple. That man, no, no, no, Adam, you know why?

• 30:41Speaker 01

  You see my face, Trevor?

• 30:42Trevor Noah?

  Let me tell you why, let me tell you why, I'll tell you why. Because Adam, the way the, you know why they wrote the story like that? Because they knew, they're like, Adam was stupid and simple, and he was just like, yo, man, I'm not, and then what, what happened? Eve January 6th him.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  Genuine questions, based on observational data.

• 30:57Trevor Noah?

  And he's like, what? And he, because, yo, man, it's a prophetic story.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Interesting reading.

• 31:03Trevor Noah?

  You think a man could have tricked Eve into eating the apple? You think? Okay, let me ask you the question.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  I don't even wanna go down.

• 31:09Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, I wanna ask you a question. Do you think a man, you think a man would have been able to shift Eve to eat the apple?

• 31:14Speaker 01

  I think he got her to eat the apple, and he lied about it, and now we read the book.

• 31:20Trevor Noah?

  Man, I'm not talking about blame, I'm asking you if you think.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  I'm with the lying thesis, I like the lying thesis.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  No, I'm gonna say something sexist about women, let's not do this.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  I am a minimal to.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Women have done.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Basic nature of being lying, though.

• 31:36Speaker 01

  I, I, I know a lot of women who are all about the male gaze, and if a man told them to eat an apple, and God told them not to, they would do it, yes.

• 31:45Trevor Noah?

  But, but there's only one man in the garden.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  I would think that Adam was too stupid to think through the logic of, hey, apple could be good. Right, like, to get to that conclusion.

• 31:57Trevor Noah?

  I'm just saying.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now, I'm not sure that Eve convinced him so much, she was like, yo, I'm gonna try the apple. And he like, now without me, you ain't. Because I do think there's a basic nature here that we're talking about. And so I think the "about me you ain't" kind of came up.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  I'll agree with that, but I wanted to say something about this app experiment that the women did. Yeah. I don't think that would happen in 2025 because I'm noticing a lot of women getting conservative.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I'm seeing it all over my TikTok, my Instagram.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  Same. I think we're on similar TikTok.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Are we thinking on the same algorithm?

• 32:30Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah, yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Like the thing about skinniness, how we should dress, about being feminine, being kind of conservative.

• 32:39Speaker 02

  A return to conservatism, yes.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  I'm seeing women who were like, a few years ago, I considered pretty progressive, becoming more about like, "Oh, I want only biological women and something." What is that about, Tressie?

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Oh, I think that's, we talk about economic anxiety, you guys are talking about that, and I agree. I think we totally misdiagnosed like that whole economic anxiety argument. And the case with women, I think, is a perfect example of how we misdiagnosed it. Yes, people are anxious. That doesn't mean that they should be anxious. What people are responding to is perceived loss, not real loss. That's why you're like, "What do you mean? They're rich. They're not economically anxious." Yeah, they are. It's just not real.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  It's made up. It's status anxiety. We're calling it economic anxiety. So when you start saying it's status anxiety, though, that's where I think the gender piece becomes really prevalent. Because what I am seeing happen, same, women in my life who were all pussyheaded out about.

• 33:40Speaker 02

  They were throwing pussy hats at me and they were like, "We gotta go." I had it on a pantsuit for Hillary, right?

• 33:45Speaker 01

  I'm with her.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  I'm with her. And today, you know who they are with? A dude in a fleece vest and khakis. It's like they look at, I think, they are looking accurately at a post-Roe reality, a world where truly the United States government is the most powerful force in the world still. And it has declared war on women.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Go back home. We want you out of work. We want you out of schools. Too much, too far, too fast. And I think you look at that and you go... I'm hitching myself Yeah. to the thing that provides some cover, right? And I think that performing conservatism, even if it's just in how you look. Everybody's getting the haircuts now.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Or the natural hair movement.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  From a liberal haircut, by the way, to the conservative haircut.

• 34:35Trevor Noah?

  What is a conservative haircut? What's a liberal haircut?

• 34:37Speaker 02

  You know it when you see it.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  You know when you see it. Trevor, honestly, you will, yeah. You will know when you see it. Also with black women, the natural hair movement, I think, is pretty much, like, done.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Folks are going back to the blowouts.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Relaxers.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  And the relaxers. That's why they were mad when the science came out and said relaxers might be causing cancer.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  Because the transition had started. And I think it's the same reason, the same thing for black women, by the way. We have been at the forefront of, like, economic progress for women. That sort of generational forefront, right? Black women, women writ large, outpacing men in education, going to college. We were almost at parity in the most male fields, law and medicine, right?

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Is that for black women?

• 35:19Speaker 02

  All women.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  All women, okay.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, black women had already exceeded black men, but white women were now coming forward. I mean, we were almost at parity. And now you see this, like, hostile sort of response to women. And I think you start going, if nothing else, let me look the part. And again, I'm not sure any of that's conscious. I think as you look around and the aesthetics, for example, of the Trump administration are really clear.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, blonde.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Blonde, as blonde as you can get it. And I think that you take that as a cue for this is what we do now, if you want a little bit of safety.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Okay, so this is what I think about. I don't think men are safe. Like, the way I was, maybe, and maybe it's just like, the way I was raised was, well, like, have your own money.

• 36:05Trevor Noah?

  Wait, you mean, help me, you mean like, men are dangerous? Or you mean, men are not safe in the system?

• 36:09Speaker 01

  I mean, men are dangerous, but that's just.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  But they're not a safe backup plan.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Let's not say backup plan. A man is not a financial man.

• 36:13Trevor Noah?

  Okay, go, go, go.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Your grandmother was like my grandmother.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, my mom was always like, we spent too much on the education for you to become a stay-at-home mother. And then my dad's like, don't, you hurt your eyes. But there's this argument, I'm like, my mom's like, we invested in these girls.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  And part of that is a fear of what a man will do to you.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  If he dies, or if he leaves you. So you always need to have your own means. And my mom was like, even if you're just selling cakes and you're at home with your kids.

• 36:35Trevor Noah?

  Just have a lifeboat.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Have your little pocket money.

• 36:37Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  But now I'm seeing a lot of women, and I'm, my circle is a lot of women of color, who are like. I wanna be a stay-at-home girlfriend, stay-at-home wife. I wanna soft life.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Can't you say about stay-at-home girlfriend? The oxymoron of that.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Pushes my buttons in a particular kinda way.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Tell me more.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  What is a girlfriend? A stay-at-home wife is only allowed to be a stay-at-home wife with the benefits of it, however marginal its benefits are, because the state says he owes you the money.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  If you a girlfriend.

• 37:09Trevor Noah?

  Okay, I see.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Who is gonna make the sucker give you the money?

• 37:11Speaker 01

  But that's what I'm saying, like, people are like, I'll even settle to play house.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  I see these young girl, and I feel like I'm turning into an auntie, but I see these young girls and I'm like, who raised you? Who raised you?

• 37:26Trevor Noah?

  I never thought I would see the day when Tracy McMillan Conton would be sitting in front of me saying, "Get the bag."

• 37:33Speaker 02

  Get the bag!

• 37:34Trevor Noah?

  Get the bag.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Yes, do you know what people's grandmas did for you to be able to get the bag? Do you know what she put up with?

• 37:44Speaker 01

  For the bag to be procured? But it's become meme. There's a meme now like, oh, I wish we could go back and tell those women why to, um, women and say like, what were you thinking? Why would you fight for us to have the right to work? I hate work.

• 37:56Trevor Noah?

  But I'll, I'll, I see this in a different way as well, in South Africa, for instance. There are a lot of people now in South Africa who go, maybe apartheid wasn't that bad because at least then there was no unemployment. In apartheid, the electricity was fine. And then I'll say this, I wouldn't say it to women because I wasn't a woman and I wasn't even around then, but still, I go, yeah, but remember, it is easy to think that the things worked well when the system was only designed to benefit a few, because then it was working well for a few.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 38:26Trevor Noah?

  So in South Africa, yeah, we had electricity because we only had to give it to 5% of the population. Yes, the schools were good for 5% of the population. Yes, there was no unemployment because people were essentially slaves. So, yeah, if you wanna go, you're forgetting that things worked, but you're not including who they worked for.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  And how bad it was for everyone else.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  That's exactly right.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  I am curious about like, and I think about this about myself and like younger women that I'm around. Why hasn't there been more resistance? Why isn't, like, people are surprised when they look at the votes, how many women voted for Trump in spite of the Roe v. Wade thing? Or just the indifference?

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  You're not seeing women marching in the streets about many of the things happening. It feels like we've just been like, I can't do it. What's that about?

• 39:13Speaker 02

  I think the reality of progress, and it is, you know, it's counterintuitive, but we see this with any kind of form of progress. So the example I like to use is like the classic immigrant story in this country is the parents who immigrate to this country will always be foreign to their children who benefited from it, right? They will never truly understand each other, right? There are millions of books written about that very story. That's just the immigrant story. Why? Because what it took to be desperate enough to leave your home country, to go to the United States of America means you will never be able to fully appreciate or understand the benefits of it.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  So you do it for your children, who will understand the benefits of it, but will never understand what it took to be desperate enough to migrate. The conundrum of social progress is what you have is a generation of women who benefited from feminism, but never experienced what made feminism necessary. Right? We think, and that's not to say that it is not true that, but we think the sort of like interpersonal bias and violence we experience at work or school or whatever is as bad as it can be. When really, as bad as it can be is being fundamentally according to the state and appendage of your husband.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Not having a bank account.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  That's right. That's actually as bad as it can be. But for you, that's like this vague notion.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  It's very abstract.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Right. It's very abstract, right? And I think knowing and understanding what made you possible might be fundamentally impossible.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  So, and not to, I don't want to throw elder women under the bus because I think we do that too much.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Did they not? Not articulate enough to us.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Who wants to remember what brought you here? Like, like the amnesia, again, another part of the immigrant story is, how many children of immigrants have said, my parents never talked about this?

• 41:09Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  They wouldn't even use our native language.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  I don't know any of the stories that brought me.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Food, I didn't like, it's just like, you put it away.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Same thing. They survived it. I'm, I've been working on this memoir for a couple of years now, and I promise if my publisher's listening, I am almost finished.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  I swear to you, I know it sounds like I'm doing a show and my, we're so close. And one of the things that comes up, like, and again, nothing unique about this, but like, I don't know anything, as it turned out, about my grandmother, who I thought I had known my whole life. Like, the things we don't talk about are huge. The things we don't talk about is probably more than the things we do talk about. And so there's a, like, there's this current, you know, there's this ongoing generational amnesia. When you have suffered in any kind of way, like, I just don't think people want to sit around the dinner table and talk about the beaten that finally broke them, or the, you know, the sexual violence that finally pushed them to leave a husband, right? People just don't want to talk about that.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  And so it becomes real easy for you not to inherit the violent part of the story. And all you inherit is, yeah, but she ain't have to go out to no job. Like, yeah, she would have loved to have gone out to a job.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  She was begging to go out to a job.

• 42:24Trevor Noah?

  Don't go anywhere, because we got more What Now? after this.

• 42:35Trevor Noah?

  You know, when you talk about that, I can't help but think about how it applies.

• 42:38Speaker 03

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• 43:55Trevor Noah?

  To many of the moments of progress that countries have made and society has made. Because everything you just said now could completely be applicable to vaccines, let's say.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 44:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, because everyone who is alive now with no polio, no measles, no anything. You cannot appreciate a vaccine because you do not live in a world where you are seeing the effects of not having the vaccine.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  So funny because on both my maternal and paternal line, I think particularly about my paternal line. My grandmother had a set of kids before my dad and his two brothers. And they kind of always existed in the family imagination. And then when I grew up, I realized that they were pretty older when they died. They were like three and seven. They died in infant hood and early childhood and from like things that a kid never dies from now.

• 44:46Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  And when I think especially my paternal grandmother, she never got over that grief. And so I think we we live in the shadow of a lot of grief in my family, the grief of the Africa, the grief of that particular event. Those are particular events. And so I said, I said, look, when I hear about anti-vax stuff, I get personally triggered because being the child of two Nigerian immigrants, I'm actually not that far away from a world where there are women who would your child gets an M R V vaccine, you say thank you.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Because you know what it means.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  That's right, yeah.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? So that thing about the distance and vaccines, I think there's some populations who like are a bit closer. But for your average person in the West, they don't know somebody that's died of measles. Or even meningitis. Like, some people take the meningitis vaccine for granted now, but I remember when it was a death sentence.

• 45:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I think about this in all aspects of life. Um, the FAA is a great example.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 45:41Trevor Noah?

  Because America has had such an impeccable track record flying.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 45:46Trevor Noah?

  People now take for granted the apparatus that has gone into making sure that America has such an impeccable record while flying. People, you don't understand how many fl- planes are flying around all the time, landing, taking off. It, I mean, these are like decisions.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  Science of it is amazing.

• 46:05Trevor Noah?

  And, and then people go, we need to gut the FAA. We, we need to, and you, and you go, no. You say that because you don't understand that you're experiencing its benefits.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 46:16Trevor Noah?

  You know, if you've only been in the time of something existing, it is hard for you to imagine a time before it existed and how much better life has gotten. And so then you don't think that it's meaningful anymore.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  We talk about like the, the shadow state, which I find, I have found that the way the GOP, you know, headed by Trump, but not just Trump in this instance, talk about, you know, the deep state. You know, oh, the scary deep state, deep state coming for you. Uh, and you know, the sociologists have this thing like the shadow state, which is our government functioned so well for such a complex, large population. And most of that is invisible to the average American. Poor people see it because they gotta go to court.

• 46:58Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 46:59Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  But everybody else, water just shows up.

• 47:02Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Trash just rolls out, like.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  So what we are talking about here is like a sort of like politics, a disease of like, uh, privilege, right? That the state works so well.

• 47:16Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 47:16Speaker 02

  It's been so stable, which in the like global scheme of things really is phenomenal.

• 47:22Trevor Noah?

  Yep.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  And it works so well for a diverse, far flung population. That a huge cross-section of people who don't have a ton in common any other way can be convinced that the state is unnecessary.

• 47:37Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  And that, in fact, the only way this is working is that there's a secret deep state, right? But no, what they mean by the deep state is the functioning government. Your checks arrive on time, right? And so what they think the government is, is that customer service number they call, where admittedly, you might get a sister who don't want to talk to you that day. Admittedly. But what they do not see is like, that you are just like a small handful of exceptions that didn't fit into the bureaucratic majority that time. Your stuff got lost, but the vast majority of peoples did not. Most people's stuff at the DMV actually goes smoothly, believe it or not. We love to hate on the DMV. I wrote a piece defending the DMV once, and the number of people who wrote me letters

• 48:22Speaker 02

  to tell me their personal stories of- Sorry, I was one of them. DMV. I figured, I thought one sounded like you. They were just like, "You say the DMV is..." I was like, "No, I'm saying if you have a problem at the DMV, you're like 0.01%." Yeah.

• 48:34Trevor Noah?

  But you take for granted that the whole population is there. So the 0.01% is huge.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 48:40Trevor Noah?

  That's what people don't get. They don't get this about airports. They don't get this about the government. They don't get this about medicine. They don't get this about everything is, it's almost impossible to understand what you have if you weren't around for when you didn't have it.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 48:54Trevor Noah?

  And so like, I'll try and say this to my youngest siblings with like phones and technology and all that stuff. I remember saying to my brother once, I said, "You know what's crazy? Is in your life, you've never waited." And he said, "What do you mean?" I said, "Your generation does not know the concept of waiting for something." And he's like, "What do you mean?" He said, "I wait all the time." I said, "No, you don't wait." I said, "I used to stand in a line at any number of places."

• 49:18Speaker 02

  How does this sound like 100 years ago?

• 49:21Trevor Noah?

  It really does. But I said, "I used to stand in line at a post office."

• 49:24Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 49:24Trevor Noah?

  And all I could do, my only entertainment, was to look at the back of the head of the person in front of me. That was it. There was no what's happening in the news. There was no music. There was no video game. There was no sending messages. No, I stood there.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 49:39Trevor Noah?

  And I looked at the back of their head. For anything from ten to fifty minutes and that was it. I would sit and wait for a bus to show up. I didn't know where it was. I didn't know when it was.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  It was coming.

• 49:51Trevor Noah?

  I just stood there and I would judge generally by how many people were with me, whether or not I had made the right choice in timing. If there was no one, I'd be like, maybe I'm ahead of them or maybe they've left me.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Just missed the bus.

• 50:01Trevor Noah?

  And if there's a bunch, okay, now we're not the problem, the bus is the problem. But I was trying to explain this to him and I said to him. And by the way, he wasn't even being a brat. We were just discussing it as like a fun thing. And I was like, man. It's amazing how you can't, you can't even appreciate that you don't wait. Because you've always never waited, you know? You know why things are not happening or happening. You know where your friend is. Do you remember just waiting for your friend somewhere?

• 50:26Speaker 02

  This was the thing I was thinking about. I, and I know this is a generational thing. And again, I really don't want to turn into an auntie, but. You know, destiny. I say to somebody, you know, it used to be a thing that I'm going to meet you somewhere at two o'clock. I would just see you at two o'clock.

• 50:41Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Now, you have to share your location.

• 50:44Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  They want to know when you've left the house. They want to know when I've gotten in the car. They want to know how far away I am, where I'm going to park. Like, there's all of this constant interaction, mostly because the idea to your point of waiting is like. Counterintuitive to everything. I'm like, I'm just going to see you at two. Like, I'll get there how I get there. We'll see each other at two and it'll be fine. But I have found that the level of anxiety. That younger people have about not knowing your precise movement and location.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  I can't, and again, don't want to be one of these people, but I cannot imagine. That our brains have developed fast enough for that to be okay with us. Yeah, it's just not. An eleven year old asked me recently, uh, what age was I when I got my first phone, my smartphone? And I said, what do you mean, honey? How young was? The smartphone wasn't invented until I was like twenty five. What are you saying? She was like, I bet you got yours when you were thirteen. And I was like, at thirteen, I think we had just gotten call waiting.

• 51:50Trevor Noah?

  That's hilarious.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  Ran it into the ground.

• 51:52Trevor Noah?

  That is hilarious.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  And yet she can't fathom the idea, because that was her point, by the way. She was like, I don't have anything to do when we're in the car, because I don't have a smartphone.

• 52:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  I said, you look out the window. Like I looked out the window for 20 years.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  But the concept, and I just don't think the brains are prepared. And I do think that a lot of what we see at sort of a societal scale is that chronic anxiety.

• 52:16Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Everything should happen. I should be able to predict everything. You know, the total fear of any risk, missing the bus, no big deal. You missed it, you waited for the next one. Now it would be considered like some major.

• 52:31Trevor Noah?

  I've seen people risk limbs, being chopped off, amputated by the train.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:36Trevor Noah?

  Because they don't want to miss it, as if another one.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  Isn't coming.

• 52:39Trevor Noah?

  Will not be coming in five minutes.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:41Trevor Noah?

  And the time they're saving is so that they can get home and scroll on TikTok.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:44Trevor Noah?

  It's not like when they get, when they get home, they've got five more minutes to solve, you know, like some crazy equation that'll solve the universe.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:51Trevor Noah?

  No, they're rushing five minutes, just five minutes faster. To get somewhere where they're going to then waste that time doing a thing. And the reason I say waste is because it's not like what they want to be doing. But as, as we wrap, Tracy, I want to know from you if like, as a sociologist, as someone who's looked at societies and nations and the way things work, do you think that means the unfortunate ultimate conclusion is, for let's say, America and many parts of the world as we're seeing now, is the unfortunate conclusion that people will only appreciate it when it now breaks down for their generation? So will Americans only appreciate democracy?

• 53:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:26Trevor Noah?

  When Trump has completely obliterated it? Will people only appreciate free speech when it's been ripped away? Will women appreciate the advances that were made by other women when they no longer have it?

• 53:37Speaker 02

  I am so sorry to say this, like, I am so sorry you asked me this question because I have an answer. I've thought about it so much and it is not a good or fun answer. But yes, I'm not, I don't want to be dystopian. I actually don't think it'll be like, you know, I don't think it'll be the type of revolution that maybe some of us imagine and hope for. And I don't think it is like a complete, you know, reversal of rights. But I do think it will take the firsthand experience of the loss of a functioning bureaucratic state, of the type of security. I don't think we understand how much like emotional security we get from knowing the government works.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  From not having to worry about whether water's coming, for not having to worry about whether, when you call nine one one.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  Is somebody coming?

• 54:27Speaker 01

  And can I say something?

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  I've, for some reason, every American city I've lived in, I've been there at a crucial catastrophic event. So I was in New York during COVID. I was in Austin, Texas, when the first snowstorm happened, collapsed the grid.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  So we had no power.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  And had this one year old child, and it was freezing, and no help came, right? People even died in that. And you know, there was people that used their fireplaces. And then I've also was in LA during the fires.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  Oh, we should maybe quarantine you.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm the problem. I know, no, I'm the problem. It's me. But like, LA during the fires, and it's like, you're using this app, actually, which is telling you where all the fires are and how contained they are, et cetera, et cetera. And that's when you kind of realize that you're like, oh, this is teetering on the edge, especially in Texas.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  When it was like, oh, this is a grid that's not connected to any other grid. This is a state with no income tax, only has property taxes. So it's not like there's like voluminous income to like help people.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  It was a Republican utopia.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you're like, I think that's already what happened in North Carolina. This stuff is already happening. We're having these events that are showing you, if America gets into like a real disaster.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  It's gonna fall apart very quickly. And like, the LA fires was the moment I was like, oh, there wasn't enough water? But this guy could get a private fire service to protect his malls?

• 55:56Speaker 02

  That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people can see it firsthand. The American sickness, though, is that they would look at that story and go, the solution isn't more taxes. The solution for me is I need to become that rich guy.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanna be rich.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  That's the American disease, that we look at that and what we diagnose, again, back to like the wrong diagnosis. It was like, oh, if I want the state to work for me, I just better become rich. Now, everybody cannot, of course, be rich, which is why we created governments. But what we don't understand, I think Texas is a great example of this. Texas is. Like again, one of these, you know, utopian political realities for people who believe in like the core tenets of the GOP's political platform. But it only works because everybody around them is not a Republican utopia.

• 56:43Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. You need the government to be somewhere. And so you can only be a state like Florida. You can only be a state like Texas that says, we don't use the federal government, see us, you know, big F you to, to the federal government. Well, yeah, you know that because all of the rest of us, however, funded and keep it going and you draw from it and you still need it, right? People learned that during COVID. We saw it firsthand. The thing about this country is our need for ongoing amnesia about how vulnerable we are keeps us from doing the right diagnosis. Yeah. You look at that and go, the rich guy was able to get private firefighters and you go, okay.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  And I guarantee he's going to be mayor. I think he's going to run again for mayor. And people are like, oh, he needs to be our mayor because look, he kept his malls.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  He solved the problem.

• 57:34Trevor Noah?

  He's going to say to you, you see, I was able to do this. I'll do this for all of you. And that's how Trump won, by the way.

• 57:40Speaker 02

  That is exactly right.

• 57:41Trevor Noah?

  Trump won by saying, look at what I've done with my life.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 57:44Trevor Noah?

  I will do this for your life. And then we go back there.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 57:48Trevor Noah?

  Well, all right.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Thanks, y'all.

• 57:50Trevor Noah?

  That really was great. That's, um, that gave me a lot to think about. Thank you.

• 57:59Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.

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