Lessons From 50 Of The Worlds Greatest Minds with Jake Humphrey

Imagine what you would learn if you spent a year talking to the world’s most successful people. This week I get to find out what insights Jake Humphrey has received by doing exactly that. Jake Humphrey - presenter and entrepreneur and podcaster co-presents the High Performance Podcast. "The High Performance Podcast brings you an intimate glimpse into the lives of high-achieving, world-class performers who have all excelled in their field with first-hand experiences and lessons to share". Listening to what he has learnt was truly fascinating! The insight he has received from some of the world’s elite performers by hosting his podcast has completely changed his life. He’s spotted his own insecurities, he’s spotted his own weaknesses and now he’s ready to share them with you. Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  This week on the Diary of a CEO, we have a returning guest, Jake Humphries. He is an entrepreneur, he is a TV presenter, he's also now a podcaster. And Jake has spent the last year on his podcast, sitting down with some of the most high performance people, some of the most accomplished people in their industries, from acting to business to sports, you name it. And so because of that experience, because of all the insights he's gained over the last year since we last spoke, I wanted to sit down with him and compare notes. We have a lot of high performance people on this podcast, too. I wanted to understand the similarities. I wanted to pick into the minds of some of the guests and what he's learnt from them. How are they the same? What makes them different?

• 0:44Steven Bartlett?

  And that's what we're going to talk about today. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:00Steven Bartlett?

  You've had, what, 30 people on your podcast today. You've got a lot more coming up. One of the key questions that I wanted to ask you, because it's something that I ask myself, is what are those key lessons that you've learned? You've interviewed high performance athletes, actors, authors, and really sort of high performance people from all industries. What are the key lessons and the themes?

• 1:27Speaker 01

  I think there was one key lesson that was summed up for me by Matthew McConaughey, the Oscar winning actor who came on my pod recently. And his phrase is, "Don't leave crumbs." And what he means by that is, like, when you're making a decision, don't leave stuff behind. Don't make a bad decision now that later on you've got to go back and pick that crumb up and be regretful about it. And that's brilliant because... Sometimes when we talk on the podcast, we talk about really like big blue sky thinking, you know, like we've talked to you about social change, setting up social change. Sometimes to people that are listening in, that can seem like unreal, almost untouchable, because it's this huge multi-million dollar business that you've created.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  But actually, Don't Leave Crumbs is about making the decisions for a big, big business like that and creating something amazing. But also like, make sure that you don't have an extra drink in the evening in case it leaves you with a hangover tomorrow and you've got work to do. Or make sure you simply choose your clothes the night before, so you're not doing it in a rush. And like, I still leave crumbs all the time. Like, I tell you, when we, when we interviewed Matthew, like, he's the first Hollywood actor we've had on the pod. So for me, it was quite a big moment. And I thought, right, I really want to be looking good for this. So I thought I'd have a shower and a shave before we do the interview. And I was having a shave in the bathroom. My wife was in the bath and she was going to come down and like, listen in the corner in my study. Cause she was like, she loves Dallas Buyers Club. She was excited. And she was having a shave and she goes, it's 9:54.

• 2:54Speaker 01

  I was like, and I thought it was like 9:30 or something. We'd put the kids to bed. And then the next thing, I'm running downstairs. I haven't done my hair properly. I'm on, I've got two Wi-Fi's at home because our upload speed, living in the countryside is horrendous. So I was then on the wrong Wi-Fi. I then looked for the script I'd written for the questions. And Matthew couldn't find them. And I was like, I was the last one in. I'm getting beaten to the interview on my own podcast by a Hollywood actor. And I left crumbs. And now that's a good lesson for me because I do it all the time. And I think that you only learn about the crumbs you leave by doing it. And I just, I just really want people. I've had a few negative comments that have come my way about the podcast, direct messages from people saying,

• 3:37Speaker 01

  you're getting this all wrong. We're in a global pandemic. I'm having a really hard year. And here you are with a podcast that's just celebrating success all the time and showing up how, how we're all doing badly compared to your great guests. And for me, the podcast is, A, that hurts me to think that because I don't want anyone to come to the high performance podcast and leave feeling that way. But it's the absolute total opposite of that. Because when we talk about what lessons can you learn from people on the podcast? The other biggest one is, they mess up all the time. I think, I genuinely believe successful people make more mistakes than anybody else because they're constantly challenging themselves to do stuff. And you, you're no stranger to making. Decisions that at the time you just simply don't know, but you have to find a way of making

• 4:21Speaker 01

  that decision. And I'm sure there were times when you've made 10 or 15 life-changing decisions in a week.

• 4:28Steven Bartlett?

  You know, the, the, the point about those crumbs and, you know, rushing down the stairs when you realise that you were late, what could you have done in hindsight to, to prevent those crumbs being left behind per se?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  I just need to be really honest with myself that I have weaknesses and I need to address them, rather than thinking that everything's fine. And I am notoriously late. I am always a few minutes late and always my new resolution is this is the year that I'm not going to be late. But it just shows.

• 4:56Steven Bartlett?

  I'm surprised, you know, that you're late because the industry you work in is very.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  And look at all the guests I've had on my podcast. We had Sir Clive Woodward, who won the Rugby World Cup. And you think of all of the, the discipline and the rules and the mindsets you need to win a Rugby World Cup. The number one thing that stands out for him is something called Lombardi time, which was created by the players. And they, Lombardi obviously is a famous name in American sports and they called it Lombardi time because it's a name that sort of resonates with winning. And it was 10 minutes early. So if you say to any former England rugby player, what's Lombardi time? They'll tell you 10 minutes early. So listen, I'm hearing this stuff, Stephen, on a weekly basis and still not getting it right. And I think it just goes to show that we are human, we have, we are fallible. And I do think we have blind spots, which there are some things, some people find really hard, I don't. There are some things that is not an issue for other people

• 5:46Speaker 01

  and is a recurring problem for me to, to deal with. But no one's perfect.

• 5:51Steven Bartlett?

  And how do you emotionally feel about the fact that you have blind spots? In terms of like, do you beat yourself up about it?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's a really common phrase, isn't it, to hear that you're your own biggest critic? I think I'm probably less my own biggest critic than I was previously. Like when I first started in my presenting career and I used to come off air on the Formula One, I would solely focus on the bad stuff, on the issues, on the problems. And that was instilled in me by David Coulthard because he'd stepped straight out of a Formula One car, straight into broadcasting. And TV is a friendly and lovely place to be most of the time. You know, we're really good at telling each other how great we are. And we had our first production meeting just after the first race. And I was just grateful to get through it.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  It was my first ever bit of live Formula One, so I was just glad to have survived. So I was ready for this lovely, you were great, you were great, you were great, this was great. We started the meeting and David Coulthard went, whoa, whoa, sorry, can we just stop? And this is unheard of, he goes, I'm just not interested in this. And the producer was like, sorry, I don't understand. He's like, I'm not interested in sitting here and going through all the good stuff. How does going through the good stuff make the boat go faster? Why are we not talking about the bad stuff? And that was a revelation for me. I was like, yes, the good stuff's already good, so you focus on the good stuff. Now I have a different mindset. And bearing in mind, my first race was 2009, so this is 11 years ago.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  And for a long time, my focus was on the stuff that I was struggling with, all the stuff I wasn't very good at, or the times where I didn't feel life was very good. So I would look at a bad month or a bad year and go, right, why was I not flowing? Why was I not really in a happy place? Why was this? Why don't we focus more on the good stuff? And that is my mindset change. That is the thing that I, for 2021, that is going to be my focus. Let's focus on the good stuff so we realise what the good stuff is and just do more of it. Let's focus on the times when you were flowing and when you were feeling great, when you were barren around the place and when you were the guy and when everyone wanted to work with you. What was I doing? What was I eating? How was I sleeping? Who was I spending my time with? What was feeding me?

• 8:09Speaker 01

  What was making me feel fantastic? That's probably a better place to focus on. Particularly after the sort of crap 2020 we've all had. I feel we've become a nation, maybe even a planet with this like obsession on failure, to not fail anymore, to be good. And it's almost like a badge of honour, isn't it? Like, I'm sure if you said to me a three or four months ago, how's your relationship with failure? Man, I love failure. Love failure. Bring failure on. That's how I learn. Failure is where I grow. I need to be on the absolute edge, so I'm failing all the time. I want to fail forwards and I want to fail often. Like, I still do. But when I fail, when I leave crumbs, when I'm late for an interview with Matthew McConaughey, I'm not thinking, why did that happen?

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Because then I'm focusing on the failure. I will allow it to be there and I will do my best not to do it again. But I'm going to try for 2021 to think about the good stuff, man, and just to see how that changes things for me.

• 9:03Steven Bartlett?

  Super interesting. You know.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Do you focus on your failure?

• 9:06Steven Bartlett?

  Um, I, I don't focus on the failure. I think, I was just, I was actually asking myself that question when you were, you were talking. I was thinking, do I, am I someone that dwells on failure? To be fair, I don't. I'm very, very good at being detached from it all. I, I think I talked earlier in this podcast about this like, um, video game mentality that I've taken on my life where I see my, my worst days, and to be honest, a lot of, no, I think it's just my worst days as if I'm playing a video game and that I am, I am not what's happening. And it's, and I, and I, I think that detachment from what's happening has allowed me in my most chaotic moments to remain calm. It's allowed me to form a sort of calm within my chaos. So

• 9:49Steven Bartlett?

  if I have a big failure or I, or I really, really fuck up and I'm, I'm disappointed with myself or whatever, I'm very good at detaching from that. Um.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  See, I think, I think the absolute, absolute ownership of what you're doing for me is, is powerful, which is, is that the total opposite of what you're saying? Cause I think like, whatever I do, I have to absolutely believe it and own that decision. Cause then if it goes wrong or people question it, I can say, listen, I really thought it was the right thing.

• 10:14Steven Bartlett?

  It's like the emotional detachment. It's, it means that I'm not, I don't think that I am going to die, although I am totally responsible for changing it. So I can think of, I'm thinking specifically about the day where. I was driving to work, get the emails and the text messages saying that our whole server has been hacked and every client we have has been sent really, really personal, specific abuse by them from our email server. That's come from my business partner's email. That looks like it was meant to be sent to my assistant, but the client was just accidentally CC'd it. And this happened? This happened about four years ago, five years ago. So I'm driving to work and I'm getting all these emails. And in that moment, one has a choice whether they want to fall into the problem and become the problem and become consumed by it, or if they want to

• 10:55Steven Bartlett?

  hold it out in front of them and deal with it there. If it consumes me, I'll be crippled with anxiety crying in the corner. But if I can hold it out in front of me and realise that this isn't going to kill me, this isn't going to end me, this isn't, you know, but this is something that I have to deal with out in front of me, then it becomes much more possible to be rational and to think in terms of probabilities. And I've come to learn, especially over the last year or two, that when you can make your decisions based on probabilities of the outcome, you can make really, really good decisions. Yeah. You know, I was thinking, a good example of that is actually, a friend of mine yesterday

• 11:31Steven Bartlett?

  texted me and he said to me that, it's interesting, he said to me that at his marketing agency, his clients' passwords have maybe been exposed to one outside individual. So there's one guy at another company that might have seen all of his clients' passwords. And he said, Steve, I'm going to call all of my clients now and tell them that all of their passwords have been exposed. So I said, let's go through the probabilities here. If you lined up 100 people, like the guy that might have seen these passwords, how many of them would do something malicious with that information? We both agreed it was probably less than 1% of like reputable people that would take a bunch of passwords and do something malicious. So I said, okay, so one person out of 100 or less. So your probability of harm is less

• 12:16Steven Bartlett?

  than 1%. What's the probability of harm if you call all of your clients and tell them that all of their passwords have been leaked? Probably greater than 1%.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:26Steven Bartlett?

  So let's think about ways we can get that less than 1% down to like zero. So I said, email all your clients and tell them you've done a security review and that you highly recommend they all turn on two factor authentication today. And that means the probability of harm goes from less than 1% to zero. And but he was like, in the in the emotional mindset, he was just like, I'm going to call them all.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:46Steven Bartlett?

  Apologize.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Cause he probably felt a duty of care. But if you do the two step authentication, I suppose you're still.

• 12:52Steven Bartlett?

  It's like zero.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:53Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. Moves it to 0%. It's a duty. You're balancing their duty of care and you know, how do I remove harm from my clients, but also remove harm from my business? But he was so emotional when he called me that he wasn't thinking rationally.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:05Steven Bartlett?

  And that's why holding it out in front of you allows you to think in terms of rational.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  That perspective, that perspective is so important to have. Like I've always had like a this irrational fear of imminent disaster. So when I was a kid, I used to come from school and my mum would go and walk the dog and she might be 15 or 20 minutes. Most kids would just watch cartoons. I would be like at the window after 10 minutes thinking, where's my mum? Where's my mum? And then these little voices come in my head, oh, maybe something really bad's happened to her. Maybe she's slipped over and banged her head and or maybe she's lying in a field. Right, I might have to go and find where my mum is. And then she reappears. I'm like, oh, thank goodness. Even now with my kids, if I'm out somewhere and they go round a corner, I don't just think to myself, I'll walk around the corner and my kids will be there until I can see my kids again. And there might be parents listening to this that relate. The worst possible things that could happen to one's children is happening to my kids until I can see them.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  So I find myself like speeding up or saying to my friends, yeah, hey, let's go and sit over here. So we can keep, just literally so I can keep an eye on the kids. And then I'm a little bit of a hypochondriac, so I fear that. And then when my phone goes and or someone sends me a message going, hey, Jake, can we have a chat later? Like it could be someone from Whisper or it could be someone from BT Sport or someone about the pod. I don't go, yeah, yeah, cool. I'll call you later. I'm like, oh, what could that be? My brain goes to worst case scenario and I found myself really quickly going, sorry, I've just got a really important call to make. My heart's racing 10 to the dozen. And then as soon as I find out what it is, I'm like, oh, thank goodness.

• 14:27Steven Bartlett?

  Where does this come from?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  I don't know because there is no skeleton in the closet. Like a friend rang me the other day and the message that he gave me was he's separating from his wife. Which is massively sad, but he rang me and said, listen, I'm really sorry to call you with this quite awkward news. I'm immediately thinking, oh my goodness, right, what on earth can this be? But in my head, it's going to end everything. It's going to cost me my marriage, my kids, my job, my house. Isn't that ridiculous? But I now have the perspective that I know this is how I am. I've had this since I was like 11 or 12 years old. I know this is how I'm made. So that is a really powerful thing for me because I then think when I feel this feeling beginning, like when my kids go around a corner, I now say to myself, listen, your kids are going to be fine playing the other side of a tree.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  You know yourself well enough to know that this is just irrational anxiety. It's your brain and it's just playing a trick on you. That's all this is.

• 15:19Steven Bartlett?

  You talk a lot about responsibility.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:21Steven Bartlett?

  Um, there you just said, this is how I'm made.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:24Steven Bartlett?

  That sounds like.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Giving up responsibility.

• 15:26Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So now I think I'm taking, I, yes, you're right. You are totally right. But then I feel like I'm taking the, I'm slowly still learning even at 42. I'm taking the responsibility back by saying, right, I'm not going to allow myself to get anxious about that. Because I know what I'm like. If I'm the most chilled out person in the world and I find a reason to be anxious, maybe I should be worried about that.

• 15:48Steven Bartlett?

  I'm going to tell them about the lift, Jake.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Oh, go on.

• 15:51Steven Bartlett?

  So we were on the fourth floor here and Jake, Jake came up, knocked on the door, looking pretty sweaty and said, uh,

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Out of breath.

• 15:59Steven Bartlett?

  He said, I just took the stairs because I opened the lift and I didn't trust it. This lift, there's never been any problems with it. If you look at the stats around deaths in lifts.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  I know.

• 16:07Steven Bartlett?

  It's like zero, zero, but you've got more chance walking down the street.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Mate, I looked at that lift. I'm like, you and me are not hanging out today.

• 16:14Steven Bartlett?

  That seems somewhat connected to what you're saying.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're probably right. Yeah. Maybe I should have taken the lift because I know that everything will be fine in the lift and I should know that I'm a bit claustrophobic. But I think it just goes to show that again, and you've spoken about this so powerfully over the years on your podcast, is that from the outside world, you look at someone like me and think, wow, couple of kids, few businesses, great house, nice broadcasting career. What a lovely carefree life he must live. Every day, man, is riddled with little anxieties and little worries.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Few years ago, probably almost to the point of derailing, as we've discussed on your previous podcast with me, but now knowing myself, knowing yourself is so powerful. Cause only then like, can you love yourself?

• 16:57Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think that's also somewhat linked to that you said earlier on about that comment you read where people are like, Jake, you shouldn't be doing a podcast, happy podcast in sad times, basically.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:07Steven Bartlett?

  The fact that you remembered that and you referred to it as hurting you seems also somewhat correlated to this.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I don't know. I think it's a, I think it's a, it's a fair point.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  I find that a harder thing to get, I find external criticism is a harder thing for me to deal with. I find that a more, I find that a more difficult thing to own in my head.

• 17:29Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 17:32Speaker 01

  I think because probably human beings just want people to like what we're doing. I mean, I find it confusing as well because I think if you're being offended by my high performance podcast, like, wow, that, that shows the level of offence that some people can take because I really want, I honestly want it to just be a wholly positive experience from the moment that someone clicks subscribe or starts listening to the pod till the minute they leave. I just, I just want people to be happier, to get takeaways, to live a more empowered life, to go and be successful. I honestly believe it, like it come.

• 18:06Steven Bartlett?

  You've got thousands and thousands and thousands of reviews on your podcast.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:10Steven Bartlett?

  It's rated five stars. People pour their heart out telling you how much they love it, how much value it brings. And we're talking about this one guy.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  I'm a human, I suppose, am I?

• 18:18Steven Bartlett?

  I think you slightly over index a little bit in terms of caring about this stuff though. And I, I actually, you know, when people asked, you know, what you're like after meeting you, I said, he's just such a nice guy, such a good guy. And you are such a good guy and it's, maybe that is part of, I don't know, is that somewhat connected to your?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  I think so. Don't you think that the, don't you think the two are completely connected though? That if I wasn't the kind of guy that genuinely wanted people to.

• 18:44Steven Bartlett?

  You're right.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Be in a better place. I wouldn't give a shit whether someone said my podcast was useless because I'd be like, well, I don't care anymore. I'm just doing it to make some money. For me, that podcast, and I will openly say this, I've not made a penny from creating and operating for an entire year. And we talk all the time that this is about the outcome, not the income. And, and I think the reason why it has been successful is that whether it's me or whether it's Damian, or whether it's the guys that help us to film and edit the podcast together. All of us totally believe and buy into what we're doing. Like, I genuinely think that it is what people need to hear because it is empowering people and go and do great things.

• 19:24Steven Bartlett?

  Who have been, you know, a lot of my friends messaged me after you had Johnny Wilkinson on.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I bet.

• 19:28Steven Bartlett?

  And they said, that was fucking weird.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  It was deep, wasn't it? I had to listen to that back five times and I did the interview, you know?

• 19:34Steven Bartlett?

  What was so remarkable? For people that haven't heard it, what was the surprising?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  So the bravery really from, from someone who won a rugby world cup as a certain person and now is a completely different person. I mean, I can give you like a sort of salacious headline, like he told us that winning the rugby world cup is no more important than doing the washing up. And the, the way that he squares that off in his mind is he says, what are you doing if you're playing rugby? Moving your body to achieve a goal. What are you doing if you're doing the washing up? Moving your body to achieve a goal. And if I make winning the rugby world cup more important or to hold more value than doing the washing up, and I'm no longer a rugby player, what am I less valuable because I'm no longer doing the thing that was more important? That was the, that is the sort of sentence

• 20:20Speaker 01

  that he was sharing with us, which I think is brilliant and brave and I can relate to it and I, and I can understand it. But I think that for me, the sort of the real, the real revelation that came out of the Johnny Wilkinson episode and what I really want people to understand if they listen to it, is that when you strip everything back, he is someone who has totally changed from where he was when he was conquering the world. Because when he was conquering the world as a rugby player, he thought he had to stress and struggle and sacrifice and fail. And now he realizes that stressing and struggling and sacrificing and failing leads to more stress and struggle and sacrifice and fail.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  And actually, one of the amazing things he said, he said, when I released a book after winning the rugby world cup, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a spike in mental health cases from people that read that book because the book was saying, you've got to struggle, you've got to struggle, you've got to, you've got to really struggle in life to be successful. And I think that that is something that I. When we first started the High Performance Podcast, I loved it when people spoke to me about the battle and the struggle and the strive and the sacrifice and the late nights and the early starts. Because I wanted people at home to go, yeah, man, I'm gonna work harder, I'm gonna commit more, I'm gonna sacrifice more.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Now I think that is so, so, so wrong. That is the total antithesis of what I now, the message I now want my podcast to give to people.

• 21:53Steven Bartlett?

  It's tough, isn't it? Because it's hard to find someone who's been really successful at the very top of their game, whether it's business or sport, hasn't done that.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:02Steven Bartlett?

  So I've contended with this, I've like, contended mentally with this idea as well. When, again, when I started putting content out there, especially when I was really young, like 18, I was bragging about how late I was staying up. I was like, look at me at 4am and I'm still working. And I was doing that because I was trying to portray an image that I was, I don't know, a superhuman or something. And my content followed that theme. And then I got to the point where I probably flipped the other way because of public pressure and people, and the, the, the world now thinks that if you go on the High Performance Podcast and say, hard work really, really matters, you will take it out. You are an asshole for saying that because you're gonna make people depressed and anxious and you're a hustle porn star. And then I got to another place, which is if it's the truth, it's the truth. And I'm comfortable with the truth.

• 22:45Steven Bartlett?

  And so there's so many levels of nuance. It's like,

• 22:50Steven Bartlett?

  the most successful people you'll encounter at the very top of their industries worked like hell to get there.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:57Steven Bartlett?

  It's, you know, Will Smith, you know, Sir Clive Woodburn or any, anyone in it. That's a very consistent theme. Elon Musk, right? But it, but what I've come to do over the years is detach that from happiness first and foremost, because it doesn't necessarily mean they're happier. And then also redefine what success is. Because success can be being a great parent.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. What is it to you then?

• 23:24Steven Bartlett?

  It has to be happiness.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Yes, that's my answer.

• 23:27Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it has to be.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Because you can still have the hard work and you can still have the sacrifice, but you don't have the struggle. That's the, that is the mistake I made. I thought the struggle was part of the hard work and it was part of the early starts and the late finishes. And it was part of sacrificing some things. That's what I thought the high performance podcast was about, but it isn't. You're totally right. It's about happiness and you can still get up at five, like I probably take too much on. And I probably get up earlier than I need to, and I go to bed later than I need to. But I am so happy and that's what it has to be. And it can't be happiness at the detriment of others' happiness. It has to be being happy, contemplative of yourself and spreading that happiness. And that again, is something that Johnny Wilkinson spoke about, which for me has been one of the biggest revelations.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Being absolutely present, absolutely totally present. So when I'm here with you, my phone is down on the floor and it's actually on silent, but it should be off because I need to be totally present with you right now. Because what's happened is gone. What's yet to happen, which is me going off to do a game at BT Sport is a story. I can write that in my head if I like, but I'm probably going to get it wrong because it hasn't happened yet, exactly the way the day's going to go. So I need to like look you in the eye right now. And I can now promise you that on this podcast, I am absolutely here with you. And it might be that in half an hour I leave, but that's cool because when then we're done and I'm then travelling. And then I'm totally present and I'm into that. That is a really important thing that, that has again been a mindset change for me on the high performance podcast.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  And maybe now I sit and talk to you, maybe this whole thing is like a totally selfish exercise for me because I must have said four or five times that this podcast has rewritten the way that I see the world and the way that I operate. And I think maybe, maybe I want this podcast to be messages to my kids. Like I talk already about my anxiety, probably another of my anxieties is how much longer am I going to be on the earth? You never know what's around the corner. I love the fact that if it all ended for me as I walk out onto Shoreditch High Street today and a car comes along. What can my wife say to my kids? Oh, I don't know my dad very well. Listen to these 25 episodes, listen to these 30 episodes of the high performance podcast. There's your dad, that's him.

• 25:40Steven Bartlett?

  You walk out of here today then?

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:42Steven Bartlett?

  Touch glass and bus comes, boom.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:45Steven Bartlett?

  It's over.

• 25:48Steven Bartlett?

  What are the things you you in you would regret not having done more of?

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Uh, travelling with the kids probably, but they're only little, they're only young. It's such a hard question for me because I think, I think probably I'm maintaining relationships with people has always been an issue for me because I I failed my A levels, as you know, at school. So all my mates went off to uni. So that was kind of lost because they went off having fun and I redid them. And then I've always found that one of the issues with trying to really be present is that you're totally present in that part of your world at that moment. And so I was then totally plugged into life on children's BBC. And then I got this amazing opportunity at Formula One. I was totally plugged into my life in Formula One. And then I got, you know, a big opportunity at BT Sport and I

• 26:36Speaker 01

  had to make that work. So then I was totally plugged into my new producers and my, my new colleagues. And, you know, I had a conversation with someone the other day and they said, you know, like, who you, who are your real friends? It's a hard question that for me, once I moved beyond my wife. Because I've got four or five mates who I'm close with, but that I would probably name people that live on my street. Well, I've only lived there for four years. I might name a couple of parents on the school run, and my kids have only gone to that school for four years. I'd name a couple of people I've run my production company Whisper with, but that's only been going less than a decade. I'd now

• 27:17Speaker 01

  probably class Damian Hughes, who I do the High Performance Podcast with. Well, I've done that for less than a year. But I'm in this. And maybe that is possibly the only regret, I think. But maybe I don't need, I don't know, maybe we don't need to hold on to people for too long. Maybe we have to accept that people come and go from our lives and that's okay.

• 27:39Steven Bartlett?

  And do you think it's because you haven't sort of, you said like you haven't prioritised investing in those relationships as much?

• 27:45Speaker 01

  I think it's because I'm always too invested in the thing that I'm doing at that moment. Like, I am so absolutely committed to Whisper, Coral Eyewear, the High Performance Podcast, BT Sport, my kids, my wife and my family. There isn't an awful lot left, right?

• 28:07Steven Bartlett?

  I guess the question, the better question to ask would be then, but you're, are you happy? Because if that is the ultimate goal, then, you know, society will tell you to live, have loads of friends and do this and have this kind of whatever. But then the question, the most important is, are you happy?

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Happiest I've ever been. I am the happiest I've ever been.

• 28:25Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. So you've got to be doing something right, right?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, yeah, I mean, I love what I do. Like, I really like work. I like getting up early. I like having five or six things on the burn all the time. I like having a whole page of, of jobs that I'm gonna do. Other people are not like that. My wife is the opposite. She's got four or five jobs. She's like, oh, man, I feel so stressed. I got, I don't want all this stuff. Whereas sometimes I sit there and I'm, I'm not making a list of big things on the horizon and I'm, I need to have a lot of them. And again, maybe I give a C to everything and I'd be better to have fewer things and give them all an A. Matthew McConaughey tells a great story about cutting off two of his big businesses because he was giving a B to five things and he wanted to be an A in three things.

• 29:11Steven Bartlett?

  The guests you've had on your podcast, all these wonderful people you've met, do you sometimes get the impression that some of them aren't that happy?

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah.

• 29:24Steven Bartlett?

  It's one of the things I've learned from doing this as well.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really interesting and, and I totally get that everyone is, everyone is in it for different reasons, aren't they? Like, we spoke to Sean Wayne, who, and I would say, you know, Sean Wayne is not a household name. He's one of the most successful rugby league managers in the UK. But if someone wanted to get into the High Performance Podcast and they wanted like a first podcast to listen to, don't just go for the big names. I'm telling you now, Sean Wayne gave us the most moving and revelatory interview. And He, in his sort of broad northern accent, he said, you don't, I'm not bothered about being happy, he said, not, not happy, I don't care about happy. And that was not, you know,

• 30:08Speaker 01

  happiness was not his thing. He's con, as soon as he achieved something, within moments, it's about the next thing. And we sort of broke it down that he was very badly abused by his dad as a kid, you know, physically punched in the face by a big man, often. And that his entire life, his entire energy comes from wanting to redress the balance. And he's now a rugby league coach, the, the England Rugby League coach, because he, he has this deep-seated desire to make the lives of other people better. Now, he might personally never be happy after the story that, and the, the path that he's been through, but he's definitely making other people happy. And he is also totally comfortable with not

• 30:50Speaker 01

  being happy. Now, that's not everyone's story, that's his story. Um, but I certainly think that we, like, in the past, we've thought that success and happiness are mutually exclusive. What do you want to be? You want to be successful, you want to be happy. How wrong are we to think like that? The very flame of success should be happiness. That should be the absolute nub, the crux of everything. What's the point otherwise, man? What is the point?

• 31:23Steven Bartlett?

  I, I get that a lot with, with guests that I've had on, they, they seem to, some guests seem to be very neurotically obsessed with the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And when you ask them to pause and reflect on, A, when this ends, or, um, or why they're doing it, it always seems to flick back to their childhood. Eddie Hearn was the, was the same. Um, I know he's been on yours, he was on mine last week. And he, uh, when I was talking to him about his aspirations for the future with Matchroom, he says, I want to sell for five billion and we'll do this and we're going to do that. And I said, but why do you want to sell for five billion? You're happy now. He goes, he goes, well, you know, what we should be doing, could we, we shouldn't be selling for five billion. That's what I want to do. I go, but why does that matter? And he goes, and he goes back to his dad when he was younger. He goes back to the fact that his dad used to criticize him and didn't give him praise. And it's, and it's weird that those early moments have.

• 32:10Steven Bartlett?

  Driven, and it's the same with me, to be honest, they drove this like obsessive desire to just keep climbing a never ending mountain. And that's a trend that I've seen in very successful guests and very successful people is often some kind of, it's a strange thing to say, but something that went not to plan when they're younger seems to be the reason that we all adore them, admire them. It's something that had hit them in their emotions or their wiring that sent them into an obsessive state in their

• 32:39Speaker 01

  It's never as good as you think it will be though, you know, when you get, when you achieve those things that you want to achieve. Like, the biggest thrill I've ever had was when I spent nine thousand seven hundred and fifty pounds on a green MGF. It's my first ever car. I can still remember the number plate, P seven one O, N J N. And I looked at that car. I bought it from an elderly gentleman in Colchester. And I went to his house and I said, I got a banker's draft. And I was working on children's BBC. And I remember he took me out to his garage. And you know, those old like fluorescent light strips, they flicker, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, before they come on. I remember, it's still on my head, as vivid as the day it happened, the light flicking and just lighting the car up for a second. And then it goes dark. And I looked at it and I was

• 33:20Speaker 01

  like, holy, I cannot believe. Now, fast forward to where I am now, you know, a successful TV presenter, invested in coral eyewear, run a podcast, have two beautiful children, have a production company. The kids and my personal relationships are aside from this because that is, that is on a deeper level than anything else. But in terms of material successes, nothing, and I mean, nothing, man, nothing has come close to spending less than 10 grand on a green MGF. So you've got to enjoy the journey. You've got to enjoy the travel because A, it's not as good when you get there as you think it will be. B,

• 34:01Speaker 01

  you spend an awful lot more time getting there than arriving. Like, you have to answer this totally honestly. You have, have you totally left Social Chain now?

• 34:11Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  With money in the bank?

• 34:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  That you wouldn't have had if you hadn't walked away from that business, right?

• 34:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  What is more thrilling to you to look at your bank account now and see the number in the bank account, or to know the journey you went on with Social Chain?

• 34:25Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, yeah, of course. I mean,

• 34:28Steven Bartlett?

  The bank could be double, triple, quadruple, ten times. It wouldn't matter.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Now, if I said to you, if I came to you in Manchester, when you went to nab frozen pizzas just to feed yourself, and I said, listen dude, you can either absolutely work your nuts off for the next 10 years, like build a business, hang out with people, develop some good relationships, or I just bang a hundred mil in your bank account today.

• 34:48Steven Bartlett?

  I said a hundred mil.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  There you go. And now here you are, you've got the hundred mil, and the thrill came from the journey.

• 34:53Steven Bartlett?

  There's something like, I'm always conscious of my own like hindsight bias, because it seems to be the case that every broke person goes on the journey to get, you know, that ends up being successful. They get the money, they go, it doesn't matter. But it's a wonderful thing to say when you have it, right? Like, the part of the reason it doesn't matter is because there's so much of it now. It really mattered when I was stealing those pizzas, right? And when I was like going behind the sofas in this pub looking for the pound coins, and I found thirteen pound coins, I went back the next day. And like, it really, really mattered. In fact, it was all that mattered, you know, in that moment. So I'm super conscious of that bias that we have, because.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  And you should be, by the way. And we are the same on high performance. When I say, you know, you need to have the bad times to appreciate the good times, and the traumas and the difficult things will equip you for the rest of your life. I honestly know that there are people that would listen and go, hold on a minute, middle class, white guy from a lovely village in Norfolk. Yeah, you've had a few issues with mental health and bullying, and as you know, the death of my grandma, which was quite tragic, and things like that. You haven't really struggled. So then, I think it's important that we, we've done an interview that we haven't put out yet for the podcast with Cio Colisi, first ever

• 36:09Speaker 01

  black spring box captain. And he tells us a story in the podcast about not being able to sleep at night because his stomach hurts so much because he was so hungry. So his grandmother gave him sugar water just to get him to school so he could have a day at school. And she died in his arms at eight years old. When he sits on the podcast and says, you will go through some really dark and difficult horrendous times. You know, he grew up in the most deepest poverty you could imagine in South Africa. When he sits there and goes, you can get through it, and you can use it as a flame and a fire. That is, I think, when you listen.

• 36:47Steven Bartlett?

  It's um, I have to say, I also completely agree that, you know, the things that have mattered most to me professionally, especially as I reflect, have been doing, as you say, doing work I love, but then like doing it with people I love and a mission that's worthwhile. And this is always been, people talk about this topic of burnout a lot. And I tend to believe, and I'd like to get your opinion on this, I tend to believe that your burnout is somewhat inevitable. If you're doing things that you don't intrinsically love doing, especially if you're doing it with people you don't, you know, really, really love as well. And I feel like in any facet of your life, if you're doing it too much, you don't enjoy it, the outcome is burnout. But is burnout a topic that's been sort of prevalent on your podcast?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  No, you know, I suppose partly the reason why burnout hasn't come up very often is because we're talking to people who are in the midst of their successes or who have been successful.

• 37:40Steven Bartlett?

  And they love what they're doing.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  And they love what they're doing. They're full of passion. Whereas people who have perhaps tried to do something that wasn't quite right and have suffered burnout and it hasn't worked, we, we don't know about them because the burnout ended the dream.

• 37:52Steven Bartlett?

  It's so funny. That's such a good point, that the fact that your podcast, you haven't had that come up as a topic on a podcast that speaks to people who have clearly been intrinsically driven by their passion to the very top of their game.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Passion is everything. You know, you say you spoke to Eddie Hearn, what's his, what's his podcast? No Passion, No Point. I mean, he is a great advocate of finding something that you believe in. But I also get that, again, you had a real passion for what you do. Like, I honestly, like, I have such a deep love and a passion for all the things that I'm involved in. Because if I didn't, then I wouldn't do them, or I'd try and find something else. But there are times in my life where I've done certain things like I don't, as a TV presenter, you often get asked to do like corporates, you know, standing up at awards and things like that. And you, you need to welcome people up on stage and shake your hands, have a photo. And I, I find them a real struggle. I don't know why, I just don't get a thrill out of doing those things.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  So that's a good thing for me because I I've noticed that's something I don't like. And that for people that are listening to this thinking, yeah, but what what's my passion like? What am I? One of the one of the really good ways of finding you is to look at all the things that is not you. Who are the people that don't make you feel good? What are the days when you feel drained and exhausted? What are the the trips or the phone calls or the conversations or the lunches where you leave thinking? That is every time I see that person, I feel like this. If you can see the see the stuff that isn't good for you and strip that stuff away, you will eventually, and it might take a while, be left with who you are. And that's the time to really then think, right, what am I about? What am I as a person? Because I don't think you you can obviously get tired and you can be ill and you can have problems.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  But I think with real passion, I don't think you suffer burnout. Because every day I seem to get this like, so you've not got kids yet, right? But when you do, you have a you have a beautiful dog. Remember when my daughter was born, I love her with every piece of my heart, right? I had this real fear that when my son was born, where's the love gonna come from? You're joking. Yeah, no, you do. That's a fee that is a it's a quite a common thing for parents. Like, my daughter had every single bit of love in my body. So my wife, obviously, we're we're really super close, but a love for your child is very different. It feels very different from the moment that child is born. And I could not have loved my daughter not one percent more. So then my son is about to be born.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  My daughter's gone off to the grandparents and I'm watching my wife in labor thinking, I've got nothing left for for Sebastian. What's this about? Sebastian's born and within two seconds, I love him equally. So there's no diminishing of the love for my daughter, not one bit. But all this new love has just appeared out of nowhere. And I could love my son exactly the same. How is that possible? And it is exactly the same when you have a real passion or a real love for something like every day that I get up and I'm making phone calls or I'm having conversations or I'm, you know, brainstorming or blue sky thinking or thinking about guests or heading to do live television.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  It's all fill it. It's filled up again. I'm full. I'm ready to go. You know, I don't feel like I'm like the cup is draining slowly because I love the stuff that I'm doing.

• 41:05Steven Bartlett?

  And that's a great point because I think people tend to believe that passion is a singular thing.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:10Steven Bartlett?

  And they're and they're searching for it aimlessly like it's an Easter egg hidden somewhere.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and you can drain it. You can't drain your passion.

• 41:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you can have multiple passions and yeah. And, you know, you've met a ton of, you know, high profile people on your, you know, from your in from your presenting career, but also from your podcast. I'm sure you've come across a bunch of assholes as well.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yes.

• 41:32Steven Bartlett?

  I'm not gonna ask you to, I'm not gonna ask you to name them.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Holly Tucker on our podcast came out with a, you know, Holly Tucker, she created not on the highstreet.com.

• 41:39Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  She said, I'd rather have a hole than an asshole. In other words, I would rather hang out with no one than hang out with someone that I don't like, which I, which I thought was a, which I thought was a good one. But then Matthew McConaughey said, do you want an asshole or an idiot? Give me the asshole because at least you know where you stand.

• 41:59Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:00Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  So he was like, at least, and I do relate to that somewhat. The people that I really struggle with in my life are the people who, one day you see them and they're like your best mate. The next day it's like you've never met them before. I do struggle with that. I, I like to know where I stand with people. I'm cool. If you want, if you and me want to have like a distant professional relationship and you'll send me a text saying, Happy New Year. Hope the podcast goes well. Maybe hook up some time in twenty twenty one and we never see each other socially and you come back on high performance. I come back on here and we use to and fro a bit professionally. That's absolutely, that is cool. What I don't want is, hey, let's have a coffee. Do you want, let's meet up in London. Yeah, great. Oh, man, it's so nice to see you. So how's things? How's life? You know, we chat a bit more. Have you got a partner? How's your dog? How's your life?

• 42:45Speaker 01

  And then you hear nothing for six months and you think, whatever happened to that dude? And then they reappear again.

• 42:49Steven Bartlett?

  I'm so sorry for not texting you back.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  There's the truth.

• 42:52Steven Bartlett?

  I feel like you're shouting at me.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  There's the, there's the difficult thing for me, not knowing where I stand with people. I, you know, I don't want to be everyone's best friend, but I do want meaningful relationships with people.

• 43:02Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  And they can be meaningful from a distance or super intense.

• 43:08Steven Bartlett?

  On that point of assholes as well, I think, um.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  What made you, what made you ask that?

• 43:12Steven Bartlett?

  I just, I just one of the things I, I could, do you know what it is? I remembered one day. You meet a lot of people when you do this podcasting thing and you have an initial perception of how they're going to be and then you meet them and sometimes, you know, sometimes they're assholes. I actually don't think I've had anyone on the podcast that was an asshole, but I have had experiences. I remember this one day I got on this plane, I think I was flying Emirates or Virgin or something. And in front of me, I saw that guy from the food guy, the guy that eats all the food on TV. Someone give me his name. Oh, um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone on the podcast is screaming. Food, man versus food guy. Yeah, man versus food. I'm in a show, but I don't know his name. Yeah. And I don't care about saying this. And we run this huge food channel at Social Chain. So we have, you know, tens of millions of followers on a food channel. So I text

• 43:57Steven Bartlett?

  the food team. I'm like, oh my God, the, he's on the plane. They said, I'll go up, go up and ask him a question, which is a question we always ask guests on our food channel. So I went over to ask him this question. He was sat in, um, business, I was sat in business as well. And he's just, he just, he looks at me and goes, listen, give me a second. Okay. And I'm like, whoa. So I walked back to my, my chair and I have to tell the 500 people in this like company group. Oh, so I went up to him and this person that you all absolutely love, I've, he's just cussed me out. And he will never know the impact he had on me, all the 500 people that I then told, and also the, you know, hundreds of thousand people that I'm telling right now. Have you got to the point though, where you're brave enough to call that sort of

• 44:41Steven Bartlett?

  stuff out? Because I think that is the important thing. When he, when he does it to his face. Yeah. For me, that would be like ego. Because. Ego from you? Yeah. It would be like, do you know who the fuck I am? Or it'd be like, why are you saying that? So I. For me, the piece was like, no reaction. Yeah. Because there was no win. There was no win in me calling him out. I wasn't going to win. So the win for me was saying, okay, no worries. And me going back to my chair. And also not letting it ruin my day. But I, but I'm sure you, the reason I asked you the question is because you have tons of guests in your presenting career, but also your podcast. When you encounter an asshole.

• 45:19Steven Bartlett?

  I guess, how do you deal with it?

• 45:21Speaker 01

  You just know that you're there for a stop and not a stay, I think, and you, um.

• 45:26Steven Bartlett?

  Does it break your heart a little bit sometimes?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Um.

• 45:29Steven Bartlett?

  When, when it's someone that you admired?

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I suppose so.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  I suppose I don't worry too much about it because I just think, do you know what? You can, you're just not for me. And also, like, who am I to sort of judge whether their behaviour is assholery? If it's clearly rude and unfair and unkind, absolutely. I, I now feel like, I'm forty two and I'm a parent and I want my kids to operate in a world where, um, they can be themselves and they can't be bullied or pushed around. I think we're, I'm old enough now, and I definitely wasn't like this a few years ago, where I can hold my chin up and say, that behaviour is really not acceptable.

• 46:09Steven Bartlett?

  Would you call someone?

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:10Steven Bartlett?

  You would?

• 46:11Speaker 01

  But I wouldn't do it in an arrogant, look at me, I'm a sort of being a dick, where I'd just say, listen, I just think that behaviour isn't acceptable.

• 46:17Steven Bartlett?

  And have you done that?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Um, yeah.

• 46:20Steven Bartlett?

  To someone?

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Someone I work with, yeah.

• 46:24Steven Bartlett?

  In your presenting career?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 46:26Steven Bartlett?

  Name and address?

• 46:28Speaker 01

  And actually, do you know what you find is that often, I've done it twice, and both times they've gone, yeah, I'm really sorry, that is, that is actually unacceptable. I mean, we, we had an interesting experience because my wife used to work in production. So her, she was a production secretary, which is not very high up the ladder of people in television. And I was a presenter, so she would be looking after, um, security, taxis, tickets, logistics, clothing, call times, all the stuff that makes television happen, but is not the glamorous side. And the number of times that I would say, oh, I met this person today, aren't they great? And she'd be like, really? And then we would meet those people. And I'd be like, oh yeah, I think you know my wife, Harriet.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  And they were like, oh, right, yeah. Hi, really nice to see you. You guys love to come around sometime for some food. And Harriet's like, that's not how they were.

• 47:22Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 47:22Speaker 01

  When they thought I was just sorting out their travel. Hmm.

• 47:24Steven Bartlett?

  And that is the definition of an asshole.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Yes, I think it is because you just treat everyone the same, man.

• 47:29Steven Bartlett?

  And they're treating you well because you can potentially benefit them in some way.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's weird, isn't it? Like, why? I've got a job on the television. Why treat me any differently?

• 47:37Steven Bartlett?

  Because you're well connected and you can.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  That is what really annoys me.

• 47:41Steven Bartlett?

  We see that in our, and I saw that in my business over the years. And I, I, I came to believe that even with me leaving the business, it won't break the business. But I, I do believe that like, so I believe one person leaving a business doesn't break it. And you can apply this to your relationships, your life, your friendship circle. But an asshole staying can. Me leaving the business, I don't actually think will be as detrimental to a couple of assholes staying in the business. Not that they're irony, but.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  I know what you mean.

• 48:06Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Don't you think though, and like, this is like, it sounds naive and churlish and a bit childish, probably from a forty two year old bloke that has a decent career and runs a few businesses. But like, I honestly think that we do have the power to make the world positive and happy. Despite all the issues, because all you have to do is worry about your immediate circle. And that is why I get frustrated with people who spread negativity and criticism. And I just, I've just got no space in my life now for negativity from people. Because I just think if, let's say that I know seven people and I just say, do you know what? I'm going to really radiate a positive energy. I'm going to lift them up. I'm not going to be critical. I'm going to do everything I can to make them feel like a million dollars.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  The only agreement is that they have to do the same. And you say that to those people, listen, I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to be really super positive and I'm going to do everything I can to help you. And if you ever need something, I'm going to be the person that comes and helps you out. All I'm asking is that you do it for the people in your circle.

• 49:06Steven Bartlett?

  Be the change.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Think how quickly that would radiate.

• 49:08Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  So my seven, so if I go, if each of them goes to seven, do you know what I mean?

• 49:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, no.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  And it feels stupid, doesn't it?

• 49:14Steven Bartlett?

  That's, that's what karma is.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:16Steven Bartlett?

  You know, I don't believe in wishy washy karma is in like, oh, if I help a lady, then someone's going to help me in the future. But I think from a logical perspective, if I help everyone I encounter, maybe they'll be more helpful. And that can make its way back around to maybe my niece, you know, but you know.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  It's true. I can't, I just, I can't see any, I can't see any benefit, any benefit to criticism and negativity and like driving other people down. Someone that feels better for driving someone else further down is like, for me, the absolute epitome. They are the worst of the worst.

• 49:46Steven Bartlett?

  Do you ever get jealous? Be completely honest.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. Um, I get jealous, but I only ever get jealous through comparison and that is ridiculous, you know?

• 49:57Steven Bartlett?

  But is the nasty, is it the nasty jealous where you're like, oh, why have they gotten?

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably. Yeah. Yeah. But you got, but I think that is innate. I think that is almost there. I am giving up responsibility again for someone that talks about 100% responsibility. But I think that it's innate in human nature to, to compare and to contrast and to look at someone else. So it's not a very long experience for me. I will look at someone and I'll go, but hey, listen, I'm so happy and I've got all this. I'm going to, and actually sometimes I look at life as a graph and you literally don't know where life is going to take you. So let's say like the people that I now sit with in a TV studio. Like, um, I sit with, they say when I, when I had Robin Bam Percy, Stephen Gerrard and Rio Ferdinand were all the pundits on BT Sport.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  There was a time where all three of those were three of the most famous footballers in the country, earning phenomenal sums of money, competing on the world stage, representing their country. And I was a guy post A level failure, trying to sort of find a job and earning six thousand pounds a year. And there was a time where they were there and I was there and our graphs over the time have done, whatever's happened. Look where I've ended up, sitting next to them on a TV studio. Now it may well be that they go up there again and then something happens to me and I go down here, or it might be that I do that and they do that. But you never know where that graph is going to go. And that is what I think is, that for me is one of the most exciting things about this world that we live in. Like you are only one step away from a phone call where someone goes, hey, guess what? And your graph goes.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  So don't worry about where other people are on that graph because it might be in five years' time, you're right alongside them.

• 51:38Steven Bartlett?

  I guess that's where that that hate, a lot of the hate comes from. So if you take the jealousy feelings that even you have as, you know, one of the nicest people I know, and you just, you know, times it by 10, you know, and that's the, you know, people feel a certain way about their lives and how their lives are going.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  That's because it's it's chucked in our faces all the time. What is Instagram if it isn't a tool for comparison? What is it? Why are you having a great day? And we, I and I, we're jealous of that. Not jealous, but we're guilty of it, making other people feel jealous of what we do. We went out for a, we went for a couple of days away as a family to a lovely hotel called Clifton. And it was lovely, but the kids, for some reason, were just badly behaved. And it does happen sometimes. And we had this meal, it was breakfast, actually, and they were like, it took ages for the food to come. And the kids were like climbing the wall and I was having to say to the waiter, I'm really sorry, but like, we've been waiting for 20 minutes, which is fine for me and my wife, but the kids, they need, they, and it was a posh hotel where you try and say, you get to just

• 52:33Speaker 01

  stay at the table, sit, sit nicely, don't make too much noise. And then at the end of it, I was stressful, man. And I said, hey, I tell you what, the family will want to know where we are. So I'll get my phone out and I go, kids, kids, just smile. And we take a photo and we put it, we have a family WhatsApp group with Harriet's mum and dad, my mum and dad, all the cousins, all the aunts and uncles, right? And we're all smiling, everything looks great. Just had a lovely breakfast at the hotel, I said. And then we get loads of messages back, like from people like my sister going, oh, your, your life always looks perfect. And my brother going, oh, another great day for you. And I think, actually, yes, like, I've just given them an absolute falsification of what my Sunday morning at the Clifton house was like, that was a stressful hour. And I've taken the one thing that wasn't stressful, why have I put that in the group? Why haven't I just

• 53:18Speaker 01

  gone, hey, guys, hope you're having a good Sunday. God, we've just had a shit half an hour here, having some breakfast. But hey, don't we all? That's, and that's what we all do all the time. Why else do all the people you follow on Instagram, put the things they put out there?

• 53:30Steven Bartlett?

  I, I've, you know, I think the world has somewhat flipped, is flipping back the other way. In the sense that when we all started Instagram, it was this new thing. You had these filters and it was like, show the best holiday you've ever had in your life to the world. That was kind of the, that's the thing you'd get the rewards for. And that represents, in terms of being able to relate to that, or it's like 0.0% of the viewer's life, like most of our lives, the 99% of our lives, as I've said in this podcast before, is like eating a pot noodle in bed. And now I see that the win with personal branding and building an Instagram page is the antithesis of showing that. It's like, I've just woken up with my face covered in spots. In fact, the last, you know, two, two podcasts ago, we had Chrissy on here, who's like a superstar influencer entrepreneur.

• 54:15Steven Bartlett?

  And I was trying to understand why her community are so engaged with her, so engaged with her versus even like, even compared to mine or other people's. And it's because she wakes up in the morning and she goes, my face is covered in spots. Oh my God, I'm not going to put the filter on today. And you see the spots on her face and stuff like that. And then she'll cry on her Instagram story because her, you know, her best friend lost her mother. And you really can resonate with that. You can, and also the amount of supply on social media of that realness is low. Demand is super high because it represents the 99% of our lives. Supply is super low. And, and people, Joe Wicks is the same.

• 54:55Steven Bartlett?

  He, he will, he will tell you everything. I feel like shit today and I'll do, and people just, and that's the thing I think you can form a bond with, a real deep bond. So even as I reflect on my Instagram now, I said to my team earlier this week, I'm like, I need to like go on my Instagram story more and do a lot of the stuff that I do on the podcast, which is just like telling you the shit stuff too. And, and so I, I say this, you know, if you want to build a personal brand, I'm like, you know, you really need to get comfortable with.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Would that make you happy though? Let's go back to where we began.

• 55:25Steven Bartlett?

  Would it make me happy?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause I know that it would not make me happy. My Instagram isn't a lie.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  It is real, but it's real with the things that I choose to share, basically.

• 55:38Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? By the way, can I have my lunch? Can I?

• 55:40Steven Bartlett?

  Knock yourself out. It's actually, yeah, this one actually arrived this morning. So it's um.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  What is it, this one?

• 55:45Steven Bartlett?

  This is berry.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  I've not had one. I was buzzing for you though, when I saw that you've got Huell to speak to you. It's just great. I was panicking out. I'd undone it and I was gonna flip Huell all over your lovely rug in here.

• 55:54Steven Bartlett?

  Doesn't matter. That'll be a cool piece of promo. Nutritionally complete drink.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's great, man. So I've eaten nothing today. What's the time? It's?

• 56:02Steven Bartlett?

  Vegan.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Twenty past one. So this is perfect for me now. This is my lunch and my breakfast.

• 56:08Steven Bartlett?

  Try it. Let me know what you think. This is my favourite flavour of all.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  It's good.

• 56:14Steven Bartlett?

  And if you have this all day, um, which I don't know if that's to be recommended, but all of your sort of essential minerals are in there, vitamins, high in protein. So it's 20 grams of protein at the same time, slow releasing carbs.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Spilt a bit on your really lovely glass table.

• 56:29Steven Bartlett?

  It's fine, don't worry. Low sugar, gluten free.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's great.

• 56:34Steven Bartlett?

  That's nice.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  It's lovely, yeah.

• 56:36Steven Bartlett?

  And I drink it because um, because I skip meals. That's how I first.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Well, I'm trying to intermittently fast because I've seen other people's six packs on social media and they make me feel.

• 56:46Steven Bartlett?

  At me.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Okay. They make me feel like I just need to, you know. Right. Why do you feel the need?

• 56:52Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  To share more of yourself on Instagram, like?

• 56:55Steven Bartlett?

  So, yeah, so.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  What's the benefit?

• 56:57Steven Bartlett?

  The benefit is if I share more of my truth, all the tough stuff, which is pretty much why I started the podcast in the first place. I feel that I'm helping a lot of people and do I enjoy helping people in getting um, and helping them overcome their problems? Yes.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you do that already on this podcast.

• 57:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, but I don't do it on Instagram and I think that, do I want to have a deeper connection with my audience on Instagram? Yes. What am I doing on Instagram? Predominantly just posting quotes, to be honest. So if I want to have a deeper connection with my audience on Instagram, then I should go deeper with them.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:30Steven Bartlett?

  As I do on this podcast, because the podcast audience are like a cult. You know, they're super engaged because of the depth and the realness. So I think it would make me happy in the long run. There's a, must be a reason I don't do it.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  That's a good point, Niss. I mean, it's been a huge revelation for me doing a podcast because. When you're a football presenter, you don't get nice messages on Instagram. You don't get like an engaged core saying this resonated with me, that resonated with me. Partly because you're not the story. You're there to facilitate former pros to be the superstars. I mean, I liken my job on the football to like being a referee. If I'm not seen, that's probably a good thing. I make them look good, I make them feel good. And people, let's be totally frank, tune in to watch a game. More people will tune in for Man United than will tune in for Norwich City. More people won't tune in for me because I'm just the facilitator.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Whereas with the podcast, the nicest thing has been this genuine conversation, connection, like creation of a proper community. And that's, that's been a totally new thing to me. I thought I knew everything there was to know about broadcasting and, you know, with a million followers on Twitter and an Instagram account and running a TV production company and being a TV presenter, like I knew what it was about, I knew how to connect to people. Never known anything like it, never seen feedback like it, never had fulfillment like it. It's amazing, it is amazing.

• 58:57Steven Bartlett?

  Something crazy about podcasting though versus all other channels. I think it's that depth, the messages you get. If I post something on Instagram, I'll get a, I can totally relate. The podcast, you get a like essay about, you know, they return with their story.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:14Steven Bartlett?

  And it's like depth begets depth.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I to- yeah, I totally see what you're saying. And I, and it's, um.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  It stops it from like, cause when I first started the High Performance Podcast, I wanted it just to be me opening up amazing people to benefit other people. And I will now admit, part of the thrill of that podcast is seeing the response and seeing, seeing the reaction and I'm, I'm not foolish enough to think that isn't my ego at work. It absolutely is my ego that likes it. But it is like, it is amazing when you see, hi, I listened to your podcast and I changed jobs after wanting to do it for 20 years. Hi, I listened to your podcast and I've quit doing something that's been bad for me for my whole life. I've reached out to create relationships with people that are allowed to die from listening to our podcast. Bloody hell.

• 1:00:03Steven Bartlett?

  What's the most emotional moment you've had with a guest that you can recall on, on the podcast?

• 1:00:10Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a particular moment that, you know?

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that will be, yeah.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  There's quite a few times that I've kind of um

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  that I've sort of edged towards tears and I think, you know, someone I've already mentioned, Sean Wayne, you know, when um when someone talks to you about that sort of the devastation of being physically abused by a parent. And I suppose what was emotional for me was the was the learning during the interview with Sean. And I knew very little about him before we spoke, the learning that all of the good stuff he's done, you know, he talks about if he's got an issue with one of his players, he doesn't just have a chat with them after training. He turns up at their house in the evening and says, what's the deal, man? How can I help? How can I solve this? Um, and he is now a parent himself and a really loving and caring parent to have the start in life that Sean had.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  And to for your whole life to be about helping other people, that was like that was a that was a hugely moving conversation with him.

• 1:01:14Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I think all of all of the guests I've had that have moved me in the same way, it's almost identical.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  It's nice, isn't it? Oh, I don't know whether you're like this with podcasts, but I love that we have footballers on and don't talk about football. We have rugby players on and don't really talk about rugby.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  We just talk about it. My podcast is a podcast about life, exactly like this one is.

• 1:01:37Steven Bartlett?

  And we were talking before we started recording today about the the desire to try and avoid the typical talking points with guests. And I think this is maybe just a general a general point for people that are trying to start a podcast, you know. Um, there are so many podcasts out there.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Steven Bartlett?

  And in order to, what would your tips be then for someone who's considering starting a podcast? From what you've learned in your thirty or, you know, you've you've recorded, I think, a total of fifty so far, but there's thirty that are live. What tips would you give to someone who's who's thinking of starting their own?

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  First of all, go for it, because I honestly, what I honestly was this close to not doing it. The great thing about podcasts that you that I didn't have in my life was ownership. So I'd spent my career working for Children's BBC, working for Formula One and the BBC, working for the Premier League on BT Sport. And I sat down with someone and they said, oh, like, how's your career? And I said, yes, great. Like, I'm really happy. I love doing the football. I love being with the the players and everything. And they said, well, if you got a phone call tomorrow to say that that had ended, what would you be left with?

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  And I was like, hmm, I don't know, I have to go and find another job. And they said, so what do you own of all these years of graft and hard work? Like, what's yours? And the answer was nothing. And then their next question, they, you know, they obviously knew what they were talking about. They said, what do you really want to do? And I said, well, I don't really care if Liverpool beat Man United or Norwich City beat Ipswich, not really. But I love like the effort and the graft and I love sitting with the pundits. I love the way that Rio Ferdinand and Steven Gerrard watch a game of football. I love how they turn up looking smart. Or they bring their own food in little plastic containers still. Or the day that I first met Lewis Hamilton and he walked in the room and he like took off his watch.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  And he didn't just chuck his watch on the side. He got it and he closed up the clasp and he put it down. And he moved it and then he goes, I'll brace it off and he went.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  And I just looked at her and I thought, ah, that desire for perfection, that elite mindset mentality. I said to them, that's what I want. I want to speak to elite performers and elite thinkers. Because I think that everyone can benefit from that. Everyone can think and operate and perform better because there's no tricks, there's no secrets. Like you just need to have the passion and go out and do it. And they said, well, then that's what you should do. Do a podcast. So that was it. Right. Great. I'm doing a podcast. And then I mentioned it to a couple of people and they went, why? You can't do a podcast. I was like, why? Because everyone does podcasts. Like there's literally so many podcasts. You can't, you're not going to make a splash. There's thousands of podcasts.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  And then I rang an old friend of mine from Children's BBC and she is, I don't have really even ever told her this, but she's the reason I do the podcast, Fern Cotton, who does Happy Place. I said, hey, I'm thinking of doing a podcast. Now she is such a nice person. She is not the sort of person to go, oh, hold on. A rival podcast. She'd never even consider. She went, oh my God, you'd be great at doing a podcast. Like she spoke about what it was about. And I said, but my issue is I just think that like there's loads of them out there. And then she was the one that said, look, we worked together at Children's BBC. Television had been invented for 50 years. There must have been hundreds of channels, thousands of programs. Did you think, I'm not going to work in telly because there's already loads of TV programs? No, of course you didn't. You just thought, well, I'm going to work in telly and make my mark.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  She said, you need to do exactly the same thing with your podcast.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  So the first thing is you have to do your podcast. You have to go out and do it. But the second.

• 1:05:06Steven Bartlett?

  And that's the biggest challenge though, isn't it? Starting, it's just in every facet of life.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:11Steven Bartlett?

  Entrepreneurs contact me and I'm like, the biggest risk you face of all the things that might.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think you can do a podcast risk free though. You know, you can spend a very minimal sum of money, if any money at all, on, on the equipment.

• 1:05:22Steven Bartlett?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  And you can, you can.

• 1:05:24Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, so cheap.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Steven Bartlett?

  No, you can start, you could do a great podcast in terms of sound quality with less than a hundred pounds.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:31Steven Bartlett?

  The risk though, is overthinking it to the point of procrastination, to the point of like paralyzing yourself. I think in all facets of life, business, my DMs are full of people that are like, Steve, I want to start a business. I have an idea. I want to start a podcast or this project.

• 1:05:50Steven Bartlett?

  But there's just this one problem which is preventing me starting. And I always say the biggest risk of, of the success of your business, the number one thing that's going to stop you becoming a billionaire, honestly, is the probability that you'll just never start. And also that you'll think you need all of the answers to all of the questions you have before you start.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:06:08Steven Bartlett?

  Well, I don't know this. I don't have the funding. I don't, like, when I started my business, I was 18, didn't know the word entrepreneur, no money, went on Google and typed in like how to build a website, spent three months Googling it, but that was me starting, you know? And I think it's the same with podcasting. I'm like, my first episode was dog shit. I was downstairs in some cupboard.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  In telly, we say the first is the worst. You know, that's the way it is. That's the way it has to be. But the point is, you got going, you started. And I think you need to begin and then you need to be consistent and you need to keep going. And don't expect instant success and instant gratification. But I think the other thing for it, like I get a lot of, I get a lot of people sending me letters saying, I want to be on the television.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  And I always reply in the positive because I always say, well, someone has to be doing my job in 20 years' time. When I'm 62, I will not be presenting the Premier League on BT Sport. I just won't be. Someone has to be, could be you. Why not make it you? Make the decision now that it's going to be you that's the next well-known sports TV broadcaster. And then I remind them that when I started out in 1998, 99, to be on the telly, to be a broadcaster, you actually needed a job. That was not very easy to go and get. Now you can pick up your phone and you're a broadcaster. You can have a YouTube channel. You can have an Instagram handle. You can have a Twitter page. You can have a podcast. As long as you've got a passion, because you then funnel

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  everything into that passion and everything feeds everything else. So the Instagram handle points people towards the podcast. The podcast is fantastic. So people go and watch the podcast that you've recorded on YouTube. And then you start to build an audience there and you make a little bit of money and it slowly starts to build. Be consistent, but have the passion, have the thing that's different. Like, I will get maybe 10 times a week, hi Jake, I just wondered whether you would come and be on our podcast. We just want to talk about, you know, your journey and how you got to where you are now. It'd be really great to have a chat.

• 1:08:06Steven Bartlett?

  And you roll your eyes.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  And it's like, man, you've got to be better than that. Everyone can go and have a conversation about your journey and the highs and the lows and the struggles. What's the niche? What's the thing?

• 1:08:17Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. So tell me, tell me what someone would have to say to you that has basically no listeners or is starting out that would make you go on their podcast.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Passion, be absolutely, definitely about their passion. And I have done plenty of podcast interviews in the last year where there hasn't been a big audience, but I've really loved the fact that the person has come to me, known a lot about me and said, I really want to explore this particular area with you. I think just the broad brush stroke of can we just talk about your inspiration and talk about your upbringing and talk about how you first got into broadcasting?

• 1:08:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Let's like. I'm a bit like this now in everything I do, like even when I'm broadcasting, I'm not interested in can Man United win the league. I am much more interested in looking at one of the players, Marcus Rashford, for example, and having a really proper, deep conversation with Paul Scholes and Rio Ferdinand, like, explain to me how hard it is for him to concentrate on football when he's got so many people criticizing him on social media for doing the school dinners, or how difficult is it for him to run out to Old Trafford and really perform at a high level when he hasn't got 80,000 people? How much of a difference does it really make to have the crowd at Old Trafford there, inspiring you and driving you on? Like, that is a much,

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  much more of an interesting conversation for me because it feels much more real than just the general stuff. So that would be my advice to people is make it really specific, make it really passion based.

• 1:09:41Steven Bartlett?

  And there's that bit you said about like, having, you want them to show evidence that they've done their research on you. So, because, listen, people send emails inviting you onto a podcast or DMs, whatever, but most of our lives, and the success of our lives, as least as I can recount it in my journey, has been predicated on me knowing how to ask someone for something that they really didn't have a huge, clear incentive to give me, but asking in the right way. So we're not just talking about inviting Jake onto podcasts here, we're talking about how you ask for something, how you knock on a door, that, you know, maybe is a bit above you at that point.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  I think that often you get a lot of respect there just for asking the question. And I think, I think the other thing is for people to remember, when they're in our position, you've been in that position as well. Like, you have been there. And don't expect them to be perfect, by the way. Like, everything that you now find easy about sitting here and recording this podcast, once you didn't find easy. You found it a struggle. That's the really important point. And those people are often right at the beginning of their journey and they're finding their way. And why can't you give them 10 minutes? Even if you can't go on their podcast, Stephen, why can't you just go, do you know what? Just give me your number. I'll give you 10 minutes. 10 minutes of your day is nothing. Could change their entire life.

• 1:10:52Steven Bartlett?

  So there's a lot of people asking for 10 minutes. This is the problem. And if you add it up, there's, then we don't have much time left for anything else. And I sometimes think to myself, if I gave all of these people 10 minutes, I wouldn't be the type of person that they'd be asking for 10 minutes.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  You can't do stuff you don't have time to do, but you probably can do 10 minutes.

• 1:11:06Steven Bartlett?

  Once in a while.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Couple of times a day.

• 1:11:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. The thing that annoys me.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Couple of times a day.

• 1:11:11Steven Bartlett?

  With the DMs that I get.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Not once in a while.

• 1:11:12Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, once, a couple of times a day. Yeah.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Would you do that? Would you?

• 1:11:16Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, do you know what? I'm doing it anyway for like, I told you about my friend that called me with a problem. Like, so I, I give him 20 minutes to solve the problem with him. I'm doing that all day, every day. And my employees will at Social Chain, now that I've left, contacted me more than I think they did at the, when I was there, asking me how to solve problems with each other, with the company, what should we be doing? So I still feel like I'm mentoring a lot of people.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  Don't always look for like the instant value in stuff.

• 1:11:39Steven Bartlett?

  No, I know.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Like when someone rings you and goes, um, Stephen, I know I'm at Social Chain and I know I wasn't very high up the chain at Social Chain, but I know you've left. I fucking love what you did. Just a couple of quick questions, right?

• 1:11:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  You might look at it and go, do you know what? I remember that person. I just haven't got the time. I've got to get in the gym.

• 1:11:55Steven Bartlett?

  Never.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Right. Let's say you did.

• 1:11:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  What you've done is you've seen the value to you in that moment of giving them 10 minutes of your time. What about if that person then goes on and thinks, wow, I've been so impressed by what I've done at Social Channel. I'm going to set up my own business. I'm going to do this. And suddenly the snowball effect comes. And then in a couple of years' time, you get the phone call, Stephen, I'd love you to be on the advisory board of this business I set up. Because I actually set it up because you gave me a bit of inspiration a few years ago. There's the value you never see.

• 1:12:21Steven Bartlett?

  It's invisible.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  If you don't give them the few minutes at that time.

• 1:12:24Steven Bartlett?

  I call it.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Just hand it out, man.

• 1:12:25Steven Bartlett?

  Invisible PR.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Steven Bartlett?

  You never see it in the moment. You never see the impact it's having. But when it matters the most, it will show up. So for example, the guy I told you about from Man vs Food, we have a huge food channel and we're looking for hosts for this food channel that would potentially get paid a ton of money. And in that one moment, he will never see.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  He saw the value of giving you 10 seconds in that moment and there was no value.

• 1:12:46Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. But now, but now he's clearly going to be excluded from the process of deciding who hosts the food channel. Yeah. Just because of that 10 second. He'll never know because it's invisible PR. But what I tell you, what does make me annoyed is I'll get messages from someone and they'll say, Steve, I swear to God, I got this message. I screenshotted it and said it's my friend's because it, it's synonymous of the wrong approach. Steve, um, I'd love to know, uh, how, uh, how you did what you did. I've produced thousands of videos, podcasts, interviews, blogs on how I did what I did. There's actually a video called like how I bought a £200 million company, whatever. And for me, when someone says that, I think you don't actually want to know.

• 1:13:29Steven Bartlett?

  Because if you really wanted to know, you would have put that into Google.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:33Steven Bartlett?

  Or you would have put more effort in. You're being super lazy. And then I said to the guy, I saw, I was, you know, fine. Got the video where I explained how I did what I did. And I sent it to him. He goes, oh, you know, you should write a book.

• 1:13:45Steven Bartlett?

  Have a book.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Maybe he just doesn't yet know what he doesn't know. And if you showed him these, these little bits in 10 years' time, he'd be embarrassed. And maybe if you looked at some of the early interactions you had with people, you'd be embarrassed about what you, I know I would, some of the emails I sent. I've, I, so I have a really old Hotmail account that I've had literally since the beginning of time. And I don't use it anymore, but sometimes it's quite cathartic for me to go back into that Hotmail account, zoom back to the very beginning. We're talking about emails I was sending in 2001. And I'm surprised, man, I get my tone wrong and I'm a bit bolshy and I'm a bit pushy. And I think this doesn't sound or seem like me.

• 1:14:26Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  I just think benefit of the doubt, man, always benefit of the doubt. And I'm not saying you need to bust your balls and spend two days giving this person a private seminar. But definitely do, I mean, I think it's great you replied and just reply and go, listen, here's all the stuff that I've done. But when he replies and says, you should write a book, A, he's giving you a compliment. B, he might be a bit nervous.

• 1:14:48Steven Bartlett?

  Do you know what the problem is? So there's thousands and thousands of people like this on a weekly basis.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:54Steven Bartlett?

  So my, my decision as to who to help or to who to engage with is based on the message they send. And if someone says, people will message me, go, so, um, so what is social chain? Come on, like if you just Googled it.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:07Steven Bartlett?

  If you, if you clicked on the word in my bio, there's a description of exactly what it is. But people will still, and for me, that's laziness. Because if I, like, I can't think of a point in my life where if I wanted to know whether I was 16 or 26, whether if I wanted a piece of information, I would have just, my, my attempt at getting it would have just been to message the person, you know, the, the public figure, whatever, to say, so how did you win that Formula One championship, Lewis? I would have at least tried to, you know what I mean?

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  Do you think there's an issue here with, um, like with our social media now, there's a complete lack of formality. So like when you and I were growing up and wanted to run a business that someone had set up and sold for hundreds of millions, you literally could not get to that person unless it was a real graft to get there. So by the time you did manage to get an email address for some CEO of some big business, it had been such a journey, you weren't going to lose the opportunity or waste the opportunity because it had taken you two or three months just to get to the point of being able to send something. Part of the issue now is that people who want information from you, literally, this is how long it takes. Steven Bartlett, direct message, H I S T E V, hi Stephen, um, can I know about your business? Right, that's taken

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  me 30 seconds. That's how long it is. So that's why.

• 1:16:26Steven Bartlett?

  The quality of effort is so low because.

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  Because they're just used to it. That's how we now communicate with each other. But then the other thing is, 20 years ago, when you were trying to get hold of a CEO of a big business, there was quite a good filtration process. So that by the time you got the email address of that guy or that woman at the top of that business, it was a journey. You would have had 20 knockbacks, 10 or 15 setbacks, blah, blah, blah, blah. So actually, the person that got those email addresses were the grafters, man, and the ones that were finding the route and finding the path.

• 1:16:58Steven Bartlett?

  And it shows though, that the, the most important thing, one of the 2020 growth hacks for your career is knowing how to ask.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:07Steven Bartlett?

  Because everyone, everyone has now got the email or the DM, but there's a real art in knowing what to say when you're in there.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  I know that people like you are getting a lot of messages every day, all of the same quality. But that's great because it's easy to stand out.

• 1:17:23Steven Bartlett?

  If you want to.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  It's a good thing.

• 1:17:24Steven Bartlett?

  If you send me a voice note, that jumps up in the queue. If, if the voice note is, well researched, as you say, jumps up in the queue further. If you're asking, here's the thing for the minute, it's like, if you're asking me for something and you're making some attempt to acknowledge the fact that, um, that you know, I don't have a lot of time, that also jumps you up in the queue. Cause I think you, this person's a little bit more, you know, savvy and it's being more realistic. Um, but yeah, it makes a huge difference. Coral.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Steven Bartlett?

  I want to talk about this. So. Eyewear brand, I received these lovely sunglasses in the post. And as I said to you before we got on air, I'd usually look a little bit weird in sunglasses. But this pair of sunglasses, and I'm not just saying this, and I actually said this behind your back as well. So this is how you know it's legit.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:14Steven Bartlett?

  I actually think I look quite cool in them.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  You do look good, yeah.

• 1:18:16Steven Bartlett?

  And I would never wear sunglasses like this normally because I couldn't find the right shape.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:22Steven Bartlett?

  Tell me all about Coral and what this is. This is your first sort of significant investment?

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the first time I've ever invested in a business really. Obviously Whisper Group is different because I was a founder and we set that up together. But I've wanted for a long time to do what I can to help people who are perhaps in a position where I can have some influence on their lives. So about a year ago, I set up a scholarship with the UEA, the University of East Anglia in Norwich. It's pretty simple. When people apply for the film and TV course, they're means tested. So they have to fill in a form so we can find out their family income. And if the family income is below a certain level, I will pay five grand a year, every year that they're at university. So 15 grand over the time of their course to make it affordable for them to go to uni. So it's literally my way of finding people who wouldn't get a chance in the TV industry.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  It's similar to the ethos we have at Whisper. Like we want to lift up people that are underrepresented. And I think there's amazing TV talent out there and they literally will never get the opportunity to have a TV career purely for financial means. And that really makes me sad. So I set that up and then I had this great relationship with the UEA and they introduced me to a young guy called George Bailey. And he's a 19 year old student, he's 20 now at the UEA. And he had this idea for recycled eyewear and it is literally taking fishing nets out of the sea, taking plastic out of landfill and turning them into eyewear. And I, and I said, do you know what, George? Like, that's a really good idea. I really like it. But it will be everywhere already because it's so simple. Because when we sort of ran through the numbers, there's something like nine million

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  pairs of eyewear sold in the UK every year, almost all of them virgin plastic, covered in lacquer, full of glue, full of metal, bad for the environment, not doing any good for the planet at all. So I sort of heard what he said and thought this would be happening already. And I was actually in London for a meeting with my agent in West London. I thought the perfect place for recycled sustainable eyewear brand is West London. So I went into all of the high street eyewear places that you could possibly imagine. You know, David Clulow and Sunglasses Hut and all of these others on Oxford Street and Bond Street. I was in that area and I said the same thing every time I walked in. Hi, can I see your range of recycled eyewear? Blank faces. Can I see your green range, your sustainable range? The same, nothing response.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  And I was straight on the phone to George, I said, listen, we need to make this happen. We really need to make this happen. And we're not the only brand in the world making eyewear from recycled material, but we're the only brand who have gone and got our own eyewear designer. So it's original designs handmade in a factory in Italy. We then offset all the carbons when that gets delivered to you. There's not been a single hit on the planet from the carbon. And the plastic has been taken out of the world to create those. The lenses are infinitely recycled and we have a system where you send the lenses or the whole eyewear back to us and we can recycle them. So it all goes again. So the phrase I use is planet positive. It's not just like not putting pollution into the planet.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  It's actively removing plastic and turning it into something that you would otherwise have gone and purchased. And look, we're a startup, we're small. It'll be a slog and it'll be a battle. But I wouldn't have got involved like everything else I've been talking to you about if I didn't passionately believe that those are the answer. None of us go shopping now without a plastic bag in our hand already or a reusable tote bag or whatever. But none of us think twice before we go and buy a pair of sunglasses. And Coral eyewear, I want to be the answer. The case there, that's made from plastic.

• 1:21:54Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, this case, well, this case, this case.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's recycled plastic, the cloth inside, recycled plastic. You'd never know, would you?

• 1:22:00Steven Bartlett?

  No, even, I got, one of the things that really struck me as well is how high quality it all feels. Like, it feels super luxury, like the, the case and the.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing. We want, we also didn't want people to think, yeah, I wanna sort of help the environment, but I'll have to look a bit rubbish. We actually want people to think, I can still buy a really nice, high-end, high-quality bit of eyewear. You got the little note there from George?

• 1:22:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  What's that on there?

• 1:22:21Steven Bartlett?

  Says, hey there, thank you so much for choosing Coral and our vision to make the eyewear industry kinder to our planet. Smiley face, George, that's super nice.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:22:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, no, I, I, I was, you know, I was, I was nervous because when friends send me things, they're new products. Sometimes I don't love it.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:36Steven Bartlett?

  And, and I'm, I'm known for being really honest with my friends and saying, oh, I don't really like this about it or whatever. Because I just think the truth sets you free.

• 1:22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:43Steven Bartlett?

  And that's what people really value, as you said earlier. It's like the, the critique is often

• 1:22:49Steven Bartlett?

  more valuable at certain stages than just total praise. One word you said earlier that I, has become incredibly important in my mindset these days is, is the word consistency.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:01Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe from meeting exceptional guests, maybe just from understanding the, the root cause of my own accomplishments. But, um, I, you know, I used to think that intensity was, was the answer. But if you look at all of the success that I've had, whether it's getting a million followers on Instagram or social channel, whatever. It was, it was that word and I never really appreciated the importance of that word up until recent. I think it was when I was writing my book. What have you learnt about consistency?

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  I've learnt exactly as you have, that consistency is the root of all good stuff. Because if you find something that works for you, you have to do it consistently. Like, I used to say consistently relentless. I regret the use of the word relentless a little bit now. I, I do think you have to be relentless, but I now change it to you have to be consistently happily relentless. And if you can be consistently happily relentless, I don't think you will go far wrong because. You'll be doing a passion project, which is what makes you happy. You will be consistently doing things and consistency is absolutely key for people to understand what you're about. And let's be totally frank, we can sit here and be fluffy and friendly and say, oh, you

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  know, let's not push people too hard in the modern world because it might cause issues and whatever. You do have to be relentless for success, but it's okay to be relentless if you're being relentless and you're happy being relentless. So try in 2021 to be consistently happily relentless and let's see where we all are in 12 months' time.

• 1:24:33Steven Bartlett?

  I have one more question for you. Probably a question people don't really talk about in the, in the podcasting game, but we have struggled at times to get women to come on the podcast.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:24:47Steven Bartlett?

  For a variety of different reasons, men seem much more willing than women. Have you found the same thing?

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have. Yeah, it's interesting. You should say that. Yeah, we have. I don't think that we have found women not willing to come on the podcast. I think it's only when you start doing a podcast about relentless, high achievement that you realise how dominated by men the tops of our industries are.

• 1:25:14Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  That's the problem. And I, you know, we keep on saying, right, who should we get on as really great inspirational female leaders? And all the suggestions people keep making to us are in the sports space. And I keep saying, no, not sports women, because we are totally, I am totally plugged into the fact that I want to celebrate brilliant, successful females. You know, I have a daughter and I want her to listen to this podcast in years to comment she's old enough and go, that's who I want to be, that's who I want to be inspired by. And I think that sometimes we like to trick ourselves into thinking, oh, no, we live in a really equal society now. What you're talking about, there's loads of powerful females at the top of businesses. When you break it down. We are still in a male dominated society and it is a good reminder that we need to keep on lifting up female role models and pushing them to the absolute top. And we are,

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  on the High Performance Podcast, we are totally aware of that. And we will continue to do what we can because actually, when we get brilliant female leaders on there, and we just recorded with Jo Malone, who set up the amazing Jo Malone brand, she now runs Jo Loves, we've recorded with Holly Tucker, who was fantastic, Dame Kelly Holmes, who was really inspirational and moving, Steph Horton is going to be on the series in the not too distant future. We've had brilliant female leaders on our pod, but it is still a challenge compared to the amount of male leaders lining up going, yeah, I'll definitely come on there and talk. And there is something else that maybe we need to address in the next 12 months.

• 1:26:43Steven Bartlett?

  Black women at the top of business.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Mate, where are they? What is happening that is not allowing them to shine as they should? And that is one thing, can I just say one thing that really is pissing me off massively at the moment, is when people talk about the over-representation of black and mixed race or female role models in society. And they say, oh, everywhere you turn now, yeah, that's all this. And I drive this home to them all the time. I say, listen, you've got this completely wrong. The reason why we now have to promote and push and celebrate and shout about black men and black women and women in general and underrepresented areas of society is that if you are a little kid growing up in

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  Norwich or Manchester or Birmingham or Los Angeles, you have to see those people there to believe that you can get there as well. There's no good saying, oh, yeah, they'll eventually make it through. We have to show them now that you can, no matter who you are, no matter what the colour of your skin, no matter what your gender, no matter what your background, no matter how affluent you are, you can get there. And that's why we have to push them to the forefront now to inspire the next generation. Because once they're there, they'll stay there and it'll be a much better, more equal society for everyone.

• 1:27:56Steven Bartlett?

  We've both got a big responsibility.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:58Steven Bartlett?

  With our platforms.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we should, we absolutely should.

• 1:28:02Steven Bartlett?

  Listen, thank you for your time.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  No worries, man.

• 1:28:04Steven Bartlett?

  You're incredibly busy with it.

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  It's always nice to sit down and chat with you. Thanks for lunch.

• 1:28:09Steven Bartlett?

  It's always fascinating and I, you know, you're discovering incredible stories through your own podcast, High Performance, and it's, it's really powerful to kind of compare notes sometimes with, with people. Cause yeah, my, one of the things I've learned from doing the podcast, which I'm sure you have as well, is that the themes that have made people successful and given them that high performance mindset are actually quite consistent.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:32Steven Bartlett?

  I think when I started my podcast, I was expecting to find 50 different ways, you know, to, to become successful, but it all seems to be distillable down to these simple themes like, you know, consistency and discipline and passion. And then for me, anyway, much of the root cause of that consistency or that obsession or that passion has come from often in many circumstances, something that might not have gone right on the playground or some insecurity they had, or something their dad or mum said to them. And that for me is fascinating. But yeah, thank you again for your time.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  It's a pleasure. It just reminded me that we were all on a journey, right? And I said to Harriet when I was coming on here today, I said, Oh, I'm going back on Diary of a CEO with Stephen. And she said, again, well, what are you going to talk about? Cause you only went on there a few months ago. And you know what? When I now sit here and talk to you, I'm a different person to the one that you spoke with before I began doing my podcast, before I began doing my stuff with Coral Iway. Even in the last year, I feel like I'm sitting here as a different person. And I didn't realise that you could learn and change and develop and adapt quite so much, quite so late. So man, look, Joe Biden took until he was 77 until he nailed it as the president. You know, sometimes you have to wait a long time in life for your dream job or your dream opportunity to come up.

• 1:29:47Steven Bartlett?

  What has changed since we last spoke for you in terms of who you are?

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Just a much deeper understanding of how other people operate. I hadn't, I'd spent my life, hadn't I, on my own journey, me as a presenter, me learning, me setting up a business. What am I going to do? The High Performance Podcast was the first time I'd ever sat down and just said, "From the outside, this is what I think you're doing. Can you just explain it, please?" What a growth period it's been for me personally. Absolutely unbelievable. And therapy at the same time, right? It's therapeutic. Absolutely.