Embracing Endings: James Sexton on Life, Death, Love, and Powerful Relationship Negotiation | Part 2

Welcome back to another enlightening episode of Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu. In today’s conversation, Tom Bilyeu sits down with renowned divorce attorney and bestselling author James sexton for a candid, deeply reflective dialogue on the sometimes uncomfortable, always fascinating realities of relationships, endings, and what it means to live—and love—fully. James sexton isn’t just a powerhouse in the courtroom; he’s a seeker of truth when it comes to human connection and life’s biggest questions. This episode dives into his hottest takes on marriage, gender roles, and why negotiating within a partnership isn’t as taboo as people think. The conversation veers into the profound, as James sexton shares the life-altering perspective he gained from being both a hospice volunteer and a divorce lawyer—two roles that have shaped his view on the preciousness of time, love, and the inevitability of endings. You’ll hear thought-provoking insights on why most of us need to face the impermanence of life head-on, how gratitude changes everything, and why embracing tough conversations can actually deepen intimacy. Get ready to rethink the purpose of relationships, the way we talk about sex and partnership, and the stories we tell ourselves about success and fulfillment. This is not just a discussion about divorce; it’s a wake-up call to appreciate the finite beauty of every connection we have. So settle in—today’s episode is packed with raw honesty, practical wisdom, and the kind of perspective shift that might just change the way you approach your most important relationships. Quince: Free shipping and 365-day returns at https://quince.com/impactpodHomeServe: Help protect your home systems – and your wallet – with HomeServe against covered repairs. Plans start at just $4.99 a month at https://homeserve.comCape: 33% off your first 6 months with code IMPACT at https://cape.co/impactShopify: Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial period at https://shopify.com/impactSumm: code TOMVIP20 for 20% off your first year at https://summ.com?via=tombilyeu&coupon=TOMVIP20 https://summ.com?via=tombilyeu&coupon=TOMVIP20AirDoctor: Up to $300 off with code IMPACT at https://airdoctorpro.com Pique: 20% off at https://piquelife.com/impactKetone IQ: Visit https://ketone.com/IMPACT for 30% OFF your subscription orderNetSuite: Right now, get our free business guide, Demystifying AI, at https://NetSuite.com/Theory https://netsuite.com/TheoryBevel Health: Visit https://bevel.health/impact and use code IMPACT to get your first month free. What's up, everybody? It's Tom Bilyeu here: If you want my help... STARTING a business:join me here at ZERO TO FOUNDER https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show: https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show https://tombilyeu.com/zero-to-founder?utm_campaign=Podcast%20Offer&utm_source=podca[%E2%80%A6]d%20end%20of%20show&utm_content=podcast%20ad%20end%20of%20show SCALING a business:see if you qualify here. https://tombilyeu.com/call: https://tombilyeu.com/call Get my battle-tested strategies and insights delivered weekly to your inbox:sign up here. https://tombilyeu.com/: https://tombilyeu.com/ ********************************************************************** If you're serious about leveling up your life, I urge you to check out my new podcast,Tom Bilyeu’s Mindset Playbook https://open.spotify.com/show/47VE90Cittmo6TGGFqg2xf —a goldmine of my most impactful episodes on mindset, business, and health. Trust me, your future self will thank you. ********************************************************************** FOLLOW TOM: Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/tombilyeu/ Tik Tok:https://www.tiktok.com/@tombilyeu?lang=en Twitter:https://twitter.com/tombilyeu YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/@TomBilyeu Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tom Bilyeu?

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• 0:45Tom Bilyeu?

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• 1:09Tom Bilyeu?

  Welcome back to part two of this incredible conversation. Without further ado, here we go.

• 1:16Tom Bilyeu?

  What's the most controversial thing that you believe? That you're like, oh, God, this one is so true.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Is this the clip that gets me canceled?

• 1:25Tom Bilyeu?

  You'll never get canceled. You're too good at what you do.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I know, that's the best thing about it.

• 1:29Tom Bilyeu?

  Yes.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Thank God, I have to tell you, thank God, I have a profession I'm really good at. Because it's the only way I haven't gotten killed for the stuff that I say. Because you know, early on in my career, some of my colleagues, not early on in my media career, I should say. Like, I was already a very established attorney for the last 25 years. And I only really started the media thing like two years ago. And some of my colleagues were like, are you, are you afraid this is going to screw up your legal brand? I was like, not at all. Like, I'm just great in a courtroom. Like, that's at the end of the day, like, people don't care. Like, if I, listen, I'm like a progressive person. But if I needed like a very specialized surgery. And they said, look, this guy, he's the best guy in the world at this surgery, but he's racist. I'd be like, I want him to do the surgery. Like, I want to have dinner with him. I'm not friends with him. Like, is he really good at the surgery? Cool, like, just do the surgery, man. Like, the same thing for me.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Like, I don't worry about, but the hottest take I have on relationship? It's all going to be gender based stuff because gender stuff is so fraught right now. It's so fraught right now. Well, it is crazy to me, but I get it.

• 2:26Tom Bilyeu?

  I don't.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Like, really?

• 2:27Tom Bilyeu?

  Help me understand. I think it is absurd. I think people are shooting themselves in the face, or to use your language, they're stepping on the rake over and over and over.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  But you don't think that it was born of good intentions? Like, I really believe that some of this stuff was born of good intentions.

• 2:40Tom Bilyeu?

  Fine. I literally don't care. My thing is what works.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're, you're, you're, I, I get that you're like outcome focused and you're also like, I want to look at the truth. I don't wanna, like, what I wish was true, like, I don't live in this should. Like, oh, well, it shouldn't be this way. Okay, whatever it shouldn't be, like, it is. This is what it is, you know? So I, I totally get that, but I think we have to if we're gonna like function as a culture. Maybe it's because I argue for a living. I'm very interested in understanding why other people feel the way they feel, like people I vigorously disagree with. Like, I wanna understand where we diverge. I wanna understand, like, because I genuinely believe, like, if you were right, I would agree with you, you know? And I wanna believe that, like, you know, there's, I, I don't, I don't know that, I don't believe that, like, people are evil.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  I think that people aren't evil. They do evil things because they mistake it for happiness. But I don't think that they do it like insidiously, nefariously. Like, I think they're short sighted. I think they, they don't realize what the second order effects are gonna be.

• 3:42Tom Bilyeu?

  I'm very impressed that you do what you do for a living and are able to hold that. I think some people are evil, but that's a frame of reference thing. You were going somewhere with the gender thing.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think gender, look, I, I think, I think if we went back to a very traditional economic structure in this country where women were at home and men were working, it would be, it would be better for the divorce rate. Like, we would not have as many divorces. I think that, that a function of late capitalism was, let's get women into the workforce as quickly as possible. Like, two is better than one. Like, two economic cogs in the machine is better than one. And by the way, they didn't sell it that way. They sold it properly. They sold it as, why can't your mom be a doctor? She has the right to be a doctor.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Why couldn't your dad be a stay at home dad? Like, you have a right to this. And by the way, same thing with the gender stuff. Like, same thing with the gender stuff. Like, why, why, why does it have to be such clear lines as to how all men have to be? You said it yourself a minute ago. You have some feminine things in you, so you're already meeting in the middle. She has some masculine things in her. So we're acknowledging there's a spectrum. And we're acknowledging that there are masculine and feminine. And we're acknowledging that it doesn't have to be rigid lines, that there should be some movement between this. You can have a little more of this, a little less of this. So we know that. So why would we, like, I understand the way we sold it to the world was to say, hey, why are we putting people in prisons? We all have masculine and feminine in us. And so maybe gender is just like a spectrum and a construct.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Okay, you've overcorrected now. Like, gender means nothing. Biology means there's no such thing even as biological sex. And, you know, like, that's garbage. And we've lost that plot completely. I think if we could figure that out again, ideally without overcorrecting back in the other direction.

• 5:39Tom Bilyeu?

  Now, some people are gonna hear that and say, well, it'll be better for the divorce rate because the woman can't take care of herself. And so she's gonna stay in the marriage just because she's trapped. I assume that's not really.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  You have control for that. No, you, I mean, listen, maybe you have universal basic income. Maybe you have some other metric that creates, like, the ability. Because I agree that there's something to that. Like, that if you have, you know, I've worked with victims of intimate partner abuse, coercive control, domestic violence, who are, like, economically or socially trapped in a marriage. And, you know, I've, I've, I've been there. I've done that. So I, I certainly think, like, finance can be a weapon. You know, you can certainly weaponize someone's economic need in a, in a real way. I mean.

• 6:18Tom Bilyeu?

  But that's not what you mean. So why do you think it would be better for marriage if we had, and you're not saying all?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Well, no, what I'm saying, well, let's separate the two things. What I'm saying is, I think that if people were allowed to.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Engage their natural state as men and women. I and without shame, like, so if a woman could say, yeah, I just want to stay home and have babies. And like, keep the home fire burning. And a man could say, yeah, I don't really want to like, do babies like is my thing. I want to like, get out there and work. I want to like, get out there and bend the world to my will. Like, I enjoy that. Like, I want to like, you know, fight the fight. And that wasn't a dirty word. I think we would find some satisfaction. I think, I think a lot more of us would be a lot happier. I think we've created a system that is serving no one's needs right now.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Like, I think everyone feels lost. Like, whatever you're doing, you think you're doing it wrong. Like, I don't know very many women that understand what's expected of them anymore. And I think they actually also, if they're being honest, and I, you know, people lie to their therapists, but they don't lie to their divorce lawyers often. They'll say, like, yeah, when I'm with my kids, I, I feel like I'm failing at work. When I'm at work, I feel like I'm failing my kids. Like, I just can't get anything right, you know? Whereas there was a time where a man was like, yeah, I'm at work. Like, that's what I'm supposed to be. Like, that's my role. Like, it's simple, it's clear, it's clean. Like, I know what's expected of me. Like, doesn't everything want to know what's expected of it? Doesn't everyone thrive better under conditions where, you know, you, you know what you're supposed to do that day?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  And, and that way you can say, like, oh, I did it right, or I did it wrong, or I'm successful or fail. Like, there's no way anymore. There's no gauge anymore of success. It, it, it, it's really become, like, even if you're incredibly successful economically, yeah, but you're like spiritually bankrupt. Well, I'm spiritually, yeah, but you're not economically rich. Like, it's whatever metric, you're failing at some other metric, because that's how it works. So I think that is the broader problem, and it's wildly antagonistic to marriage. I, I think that's a take that I have that is potentially controversial, because it's tied to gender stuff. My other big thing is I, I don't think that people's children should be their highest accomplishment. I think we've created a culture where everybody's like, my proudest accomplishment is my kids.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  That seems very strange to me, and actually quite sick. Because growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a virus or a cancer cell. Like, it, it, let's play this theory out. If The most important thing I'll ever do is have children. What's the most important thing my children will ever do? Have children? Like, okay, and the most important thing their children will do to be have children? So, okay, so the highest calling is to reproduce. And reproduction is the goal in and of itself. Like, it's the highest thing is to fulfill the biological imperative. To take this half-formed thing that comes out of a woman, like, that you better hope whatever meets you on the other side is gonna help, because we're helpless when we're born. So, we're gonna take this half-formed thing, we're gonna turn it into something that's self-sustaining

• 9:27Speaker 01

  and that fulfills the biological and can reproduce itself. Great, okay, so that's it. That's the goal? That's why we're here? That's the whole thing? Like, that's crazy to me. So then, why have we structured it that if you say anything other than, "Well, the day my children were born was the greatest day. My children are my greatest accomplishment", that that is somehow profanity? If I was to say, "Yeah, my greatest accomplishment was like becoming so good at my craft and feeling such success at it", what about being a father? "Yeah, I love being a father. It's really, really fun. It was like a really cool thing I got to do and I'm doing and it's great. And I learned a lot about myself from it. And I think I added some value to the world by these two wonderful men that I helped build." Like, but I don't know that it was like the most rewarding experience. Like, by the way, that's my preference.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  What business is that of yours? That I, you know, that, yeah, I liked that. Like, I like apples, so why do you hate oranges? I don't hate, I didn't say that. I said I like apples. I wasn't like making metrics on fruit. And by the way, if I don't like oranges, what is it? Go enjoy all the oranges you want. To like, go make your children the great. Because when I said, I dared to say, I think it was on Diary of a CEO, I dared to say, "Yeah, you know, I don't think having children should be like, you know, I don't understand that being like people's highest accomplishment in life." Oh, my God, you to think that I said I should be allowed to expose my genitals to children in public? Like, it was crazy. It was, the reaction was, "My children, how dare, you mustn't have. Your children mustn't."

• 10:51Speaker 01

  And I'm like, all I dared say there is that like in the value, like, "Yeah, this was great. It was lovely, but I don't know that it's the only purpose. There has to be some higher, nobler purpose of life, whether it's, I don't know if you wanna believe it's to glorify God, if you wanna believe it's to build things that will last after you're gone. I don't really know."

• 11:12Tom Bilyeu?

  What do you believe it is?

• 11:14Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not a nihilist, but I don't think the purpose of dancing is to move from one point of the floor to another. The purpose of dancing is to dance. It's just to feel the thing, to experience something that's going to end. And like, the song will end and the dancing will stop and you can't hold on to it. It was an experience. It was a moment. It was a thing you did. Like, what's the point of listening to music? I don't know, it's just beautiful. It just feels good. You're part of some, you feel like you're part of something bigger. You're in touch with something emotionally. I think life is, you know, we're experiencing something. Like, we're here to just move through and

• 11:56Speaker 01

  experience something. And it's impermanent. And, you know, I don't know that we can know the meaning. That's how I feel about God. Like, I think it's a form of hubris to think you could understand God. You believe there is a God? Yeah, I believe in something. I don't, I mean, do I think, like, when people say, like, God, well, he, you believe God has a penis? Like, you called him he, you think he has external genitalia? Like, how big is it then? Like, that makes no sense to me. Like, you don't actually mean God's a man, because I don't think you think God has a penis. And is it covered? Or is he, like, wearing a loincloth? Like, what is God? So really, what you're saying is I think that there is some force, some conscious, omnipotent Creator

• 12:41Speaker 01

  deity that occasionally writes books and talks to us, but stopped recently, you know? Okay, so you believe that, right? And by the way, you believe that if you impede to him, that he will intervene. So even though he created the entire known universe and every single thing that is happening, he set into motion, because you prayed very hard, he cured your child's cancer. The cancer he gave your child. Like, to me, that seems a little strange. Like, what's easier for me personally to digest is if something, some force, something, could create the entire known universe and is infinite.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  To think that I, an ape, right? Could understand that thing is like hubris. Like, it's crazy. Like, I, there's, I don't understand, like, complex math. Like, I can't memorize, like, certain sets of numbers with, like, if you tell me your phone number now, I'll forget it in 30 seconds. Like, so, and I think I'm gonna be able to understand the nature of an omnipotent creator deity that created the known universe, but also was eternal. Like, so to me, like, the question of, do you believe in God? Yeah, I have a feeling there's something. I have a feeling that there's no reason to be afraid. You know, I was a hospice volunteer for many years. Like, I'm very comfortable around death.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  I've spent a lot of time with death. And I see it, like, we've done a terrible disservice to people by distracting them and hiding death from them. Like, we live in a world where death is just, it happens behind closed doors, you don't get to see it. How many times have you been in a room when someone died? Like, I, I've been in a room a lot of times when people die. Like, I was a vigil volunteer for a number of years.

• 14:34Tom Bilyeu?

  Why seek that out?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  It, it's the most life-affirming experience I think you could have. It's incredible. It's an incredible reminder of, I think that our society is designed to distract you from the fact that you're gonna die. Because if you, if you thought really and internalized the fact that you're gonna die, you wouldn't pay attention to the meaningless shit that keeps the machine moving. Like, you would just stop buying a lot of what they're selling. I think that we deny death because it's a great mystery, we're terrified of it, and we culturally just reaffirm it over and over by hiding it from people.

• 15:13Tom Bilyeu?

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• 17:41Tom Bilyeu?

  Thanks for staying tuned. Now, let's get back to it.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Here's a hot take. I think when you turn 18, you should have to do a year or two of mandatory hospice volunteering.

• 17:51Tom Bilyeu?

  Damn.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  I think if you spent time with the terminally ill when you were 18, 19 years old, you would, you would, it would change, it changed my entire way of viewing the world.

• 18:02Tom Bilyeu?

  Because they gave you a glimpse into the finiteness and that changes how you behave?

• 18:07Speaker 01

  You just realized that just, there's so much of this shit doesn't matter. Like, spend time with people that are dying. They don't, they don't really, all their stuff is a great big pile of nothing. Like, all that they can talk about is like the people that they love, the connections that they made, the experiences that they had that were beautiful or painful, like they, and you, when you're around them,

• 18:32Speaker 01

  like, you could have a lot of stuff going on in your day.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  But I would do like a hospice visit, and by the way, like as a hospice volunteer, you don't like sit and talk about, you know, how are you feeling about the fact you're dying? Very rarely did anybody want to talk about the fact that they were dying. That was just a, that was a reality they couldn't deny. They're in a hospital bed in their, in their living room a lot of the time. Like, they wanted to talk about their life. They wanted to talk about what's going on with the Yankees. They wanted to talk about like other things. They wanted to be alive, you know? And, and a lot of times what you do as hospice volunteers, you just are there. You're just of service. You're like, I'll, I'll do the dishes. I'll take out the trash. Like, I do the grocery shopping for you, whatever. Like, I just want to be of service. Like, you're dealing with this big thing. Let me help with some of these other things. But I would walk out of every single hospice visit.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  And I was like a, I was like a samurai, like I was like a zen monk, like I could hear the rain. Because I was like, I don't have esophageal cancer. Like, all the other stuff going on in my life right now, I don't have that. Like, I don't have what's going on behind that door right here on the street, just like the street you live on. There's a house where someone right now is, like, they're, they're dying. Like, their father's dying, their mother's dying, like, this is it. This is it. And everything else falls away. All the bullshit falls away. All the things that were so important five minutes ago, when you got that diagnosis, or you got told, we can't do anything more.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Like, when my mom had her last cancer surgery, before she passed away 10 years ago.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  They had said that this is gonna be about a 12-hour surgery. And there's gonna be a team of surgeons working because there's different spots we have to. So we like tucked in at the waiting room at Sloan-Kettering. We're like, okay, we're gonna be here a really long time. 20 minutes later, they came in and they said, it's like a bomb went off. Like, cancer is everywhere. We opened her up, we closed her up. There's nothing we can do. And in that moment, all of the other things that I was stressed about, worried about, and all that, the volume was turned so far down on all those things. Because my mom was gonna die. Like, and I, all that became important was how can I spend a little more time with her?

• 20:48Speaker 01

  How can I make sure she knows I love her? How can I savor this? This wonderful thing, which by the way, you're dying. Like Lisa's dying. There is a finite number of times you will kiss your wife. You don't know the number, but it's a number. Like, I'll be able to tell you it someday. Like, there's a finite number, though. Like, and you won't know until you've crossed over it, until you've passed it, that that was it. That was the last time. Like, and that to me, like, if you don't keep that in your line of sight, you're a fool. You're a fool, because you're gonna think you get to do that forever. You're gonna think you get to do that all the time, and you don't. You will not do that forever.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Like, there is a finite number of times, and that's the most beautiful thing in the world. It's what makes that so special, is that, that it's finite. Like, if it lasted forever, like, to live forever would be a curse. Like, being Dracula's a curse, you know? But the truth is, like, she's alive right now. Right now, she's alive. She's in the other room. She's right there, and you get to kiss her as many times as you want to. And isn't that the greatest thing in the world? Like, isn't that the most, you know, Thich Nhat Hanh has this, this exercise that he says when you hug someone.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  You should think about the fact that they're there and you're hugging them. And then you should close your eyes and think that they're dead. And you're hugging their dead body before you let it go for the last time. And then you should think about the fact that they're alive and you're hugging them. If you do that, I'm telling you, your whole way of viewing the world will change. And so hospice, for me, being a hospice volunteer, was a undeniable glimpse into that reality and nothing has ever looked the same since. Like, nothing. And by the way, it didn't change until like, oh, now I have to renunciate everything and become a monk.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  And no, no, I just try to live my life in a way that knows like every time I say, every single time I text or talk to my sons, who are 26 and 28, the last thing I say is, I love you. Even if I'm fighting with them, even if I'm pissed at them, I'll be like, well, you know what? That's ridiculous. All right, I'll talk to you later. I love you. Because I know the last thing I said to them is, I love you. Always. Because someday, that's the last time I said it to them. Like, I have to tell you, as a father, I was in, I was in Whole Foods a couple of months ago. And there was a younger man than me, a guy in his 30s. And he was just standing there and he had like that look that like a tired young father has. And he had this little boy with him, his son.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  And the son was like doing with that thing that kids do. Where he's like, Dad, can I do this? Dad, see this? Dad, and the guy had the look on his face like, oh, my God, please. Like, I just want like a minute, you know? And he's like, Daddy, Daddy, look at that. Daddy, did you see? Daddy, can we get some of this? You know? And I, I remember that. Like, I remember that.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  I remember how exhausting it was.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  And something in that moment, I actually thought, oh, I'm not daddy anymore.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Like, there was a last time that my sons called me daddy. And then became dad. I've been dad ever since.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  If you had told me, that's the last time

• 24:18Speaker 01

  when it happened. When they said like, all right, Daddy, see you later. If you'd said, oh, by the way, that's the last time he's ever gonna call you daddy. Like, I, I would have wept.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  But that had to die for me to become dad. Like, and I really like being dad, you know? It's a really nice thing to be dad. Like, things have to end for the next thing, you know? Or because things have to end. But like, for me, being a hospice volunteer and being a divorce lawyer, it was, it was the same thing. It's endings. Like, it's all endings. Everything to me, like, I think we have to look at things from the lens of endings. Because everything is ending all the time. Like, it's always ending all the time. And we, we deny that. We hide from it. We run from it.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  We, we try to like shield it from ourselves and from each other. And I, I think we're doing a tremendous disservice. So like, to tie it back to marriage, that couple, you know, they're starting the journey together. I would say to them, do you both know you're gonna lose each other? Like, you know this is going to end, right? Like, you know this is gonna end. It might end next week. One of you might walk out of the house and boom, the satellite falls from the sky and kills you. Like, people die all the time for no reason. No just readily discernible reason. Maybe if we started with that.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Like, if you knew this is the last day you'd get to spend with your wife, you would not be talking to me, man. You wouldn't be. Well, you know what? It could be. I, God, I hope it's not. But man, it could be. Like, one day is gonna be that day, man. So, like, to me, I don't know. Like, figure, figure that out. If you figured that out and keep that in your line of sight. Again, I'm not saying you have to like renunciate, never go out because, oh, my God, like, I, you know, I could, like, I have to spend every minute with my spouse because... But just remember that this is not permanently gifted. It's loaned. Your wife's love is loaned to you. Your love is loaned to her. She doesn't own it. She'll never be able to own it. It's not permanent. It's temporary. So feel it fully. Embrace it.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  See it as the precious thing that it is. See it as the finite thing that it is. Take it seriously. Treat it like something that is going away.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  And if it has value to you, you would remember to say, like, if you knew this was the last time we were gonna talk, there's some things you'd say, you know? And that's what's so great about like hospice. It's what's so great. When I knew my mother was dying, you know, we walked out of that hospital and she started hospice and she was on hospice for two years. I'd already been a hospice volunteer at that point for quite some time, but it was a very different experience.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  And it just changed a lot of things. It didn't really matter that we disagreed about some things politically and we didn't have a perfect relationship. I was a hard person to have as a son. She was not a perfect mom. Like, it didn't really matter. Like, we loved each other. Like, you know, she did the best she could do and I did the best that I could do. And like, all that really mattered at that moment was like, do you know I love you? Do you know that, like, I'm good? Like, you'll be gone, but like, I'm good. You built this thing. Like, you built this amazing thing, you know? And like, I'm so happy. My life is so good. Like, so if your goal was to like, do a good job on that, you did. You did a great job on that.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Like, and that, to me, like, when you know, I'm only gonna have like, four or five more conversations with this person, like, that's it. They're slipping away. Like, you could feel it.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Man, like, you only have the conversations that matter at that point. And I just think, I don't know, we're just so... You want a hot take? Like, we're so fucking ungrateful. Like, we're so ungrateful. Like, we could just, we should wake up every single day and just be so grateful, man. We woke up today. I've got this body, it works really well. Like, I've got people in my life who love me and who I love. Like, and I get to spend another day interacting with them in some fashion. Like, I get to eat delicious food and breathe clean air. Like, this is like, these are... But again, like, the machine is constantly telling me that, like, I'm doing it wrong and that there's other things I should be chasing. And look, I get it.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Like, it's cool to chase other things and stuff like that, but come on, man. Like, come on. Like, every single thing you own. Some points can be all like the junk heap. Doesn't mean anything. Like what really means something, I believe, is like the deep connections and love we feel. Like when you look back on your life, like it's just a series of moments where you felt loved and where you loved someone. Like it's everything. It's everything. Like I'm a divorce lawyer. Like people imagine me to be like the grim reaper of love and marriage. Like and fundamentally, like I think I'm the total opposite of that. Like I am being around endings has made me so unbelievably grateful

• 29:34Speaker 01

  for the core thing, which is love and connection. To feel love, because I think our biggest fear is that we're not worthy of love. That we don't deserve love. That the people who love us, they don't really know us. If they knew us, they wouldn't love us. They would know that we're just a mess. You know? But the truth is like, it's not true. Like if you said to me, Tom, like off camera, Jim, like I know I seem like I got it together, but like I'm a mess, man. I feel like a mess. Like I'm so weak sometimes. I make mistakes all the time. I'm short sighted. I'm pessimistic. I'm whatever. I would, I'd be like, thanks for letting me know, man. You suck. I'm not talking anymore. No, I'd be like, hey, Tom, man, don't be so hard on yourself. What are you doing?

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Like, it's okay. You're human. We're all human. It's okay. Like you're human, you know? Okay. Well, if there was someone in your life who, who talked to Lisa the way you talk to yourself in your brain, you'd beat the shit out of that guy. Like I know that's true of me. Like if someone, if someone, we're like, you know, we're not best friends, you and I, but we're friends. Like you, if, if someone talked to you the way I talk to myself in my head, I would be like, dude, you're out of order. Like, dare, like you don't know Tom. You don't know everything he's been through. You don't have a right to judge because I, I am brutal to myself. Like I get up in the morning, I'm like, what are you doing, dude? Get out of bed. What do you get it going? And like, get to the gym. Like you're weak.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  You're getting old. What do you do? Come on. Like all I do is beat myself up. And so, you know, again, like I, I think that's all the framing. That's all the, the like, we've been taught to criticize ourselves constantly. We've been taught to take our eye off the plot. Like you and Lisa, the thing you're doing well. Is you, you don't lose the plot. Like, I can tell that about you. It's obvious, talking to either of you about the other. Like, the two of you, you try to not lose the plot. Like, you're paying attention to the thing you're building. You have this shared goal and shared purpose. And you know what? We are playing a game you can't win to the utmost. Like, we're just playing this game, like, we're all gonna die, we're all gonna lose each other, everything we built will crumble.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  A hundred years from now, everyone who loves you will be gone, and everyone you love will be gone. But it's like, our immediate response to that is, well, I'm not gonna think about that. That's terrible. That's a, why? That should be the most liberating, freeing thought in the world. It should be the most important thought in the world. And I guess that, that's why I keep, you know, you have a divorce lawyer around to talk about relationships, and I start talking about death. But I think it's partly because, like, yeah, it's endings. Like, divorce is an ending, you know? Death is an ending. And, and I, I think we need to look harder at endings, and it will, the path of staying together will be clearer to us, because we won't lose the plot so easily.

• 32:27Tom Bilyeu?

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• 33:07Tom Bilyeu?

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• 33:37Speaker 01

  Thanks for sticking around. Let's get right back into the action.

• 33:40Tom Bilyeu?

  I think you're very right about that. Reminding yourself how transient things are, I think, is incredibly important. There's something very interesting, though, about the way that you approach the world. So, obviously, going through all of that and hearing how thoughtful you've been about recognizing the ending of something, grabbing a hold of gratitude, recognizing what a problem that is. And I've also heard you say that you put a ton of time and energy into being great at what you do. And you refer to yourself as a weapon. And the fascinating thing about spending as much time researching you as I have is that you can swing all the way from, I mean, what you've just done here, obviously very emotive. I've heard you talk about your dogs.

• 34:22Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah, I mean, it's all incredibly beautiful, but then I've also heard you talk about being a weapon. And it's like, hey, I am here to do a job and I'm going to do it to the best of my ability.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:33Tom Bilyeu?

  What is the container in which all of those, I won't say competing, but those different facets of your personality, you live inside. It's not, it's not living inside of a strong sense of there's a God or religion, but it's living inside of something.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, you know, I think I have a moral sense, but I think, you know, there's a, there's a line from Ruses Sardonicus that I used to have hanging on the wall of my office. And it goes to that weapon side of me. And it is, I used to have it memorized, I think I probably still do. He said that, "I have resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in order to accomplish certain strategic objectives for people whose, for people whose safety is more important than my need to maintain moral purity."

• 35:26Tom Bilyeu?

  Damn.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  So I realize I have a set of skills. Like I'm, I'm a very good advocate. I'm a very good weapon. Like I can use words to make you cry. I can use words to make you scared. I can use words to make you feel safe. Like I'm good at words. Cause that's the weapon. That's all I have was words. And gestures and you know, like whatever. I'm a good storyteller. My job is full contact storytelling. Like it's hard enough to be a good storyteller, but be a good storyteller while someone else is trying to stop you from telling the story and tell the opposite story. Like then you've got to be really good, you know? And, and I don't know why I have a God given talent at this. Like I'm good at it. I'm really good in the courtroom. I'm good at this very strange amalgam of skills you have to have

• 36:12Speaker 01

  to extemporaneously speak in this very specific kind of way. Plus I'm really good. I've memorized the rules of evidence. Like I'm, you know, I have a very weird, specific skillset. That to me, I feel like I want to be of service while I'm here. I don't know. It's this, I feel the most fulfilled when I'm of service. Like I, whether it was as a hospice volunteer. How old were you when you were doing that? Eighteen. I'd just gotten out of, so I, I'm, there's a little context there. My, when I was about six years old, maybe five years old, um, my mom was first diagnosed with leiomyosarcoma, which is a soft tissue sarcoma. It's very rare.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  It's a cancer that does not typically become metastatic in any way, but it grows very rapidly. So the first time that she was diagnosed with it, when they found it, it was the size of a dime. And when they took it out, three weeks later, it was the size of a grapefruit. Whoa. Yeah. And it doesn't cause necrosis when it touches tissue. But the way Murray Brennan, who was one of, she, he did about four of her surgeries at Sloan Kettering. Great surgeon, great guy. The way he described it to us is he said, it's kind of like a cow standing in the middle of the road. Like at first, everybody can drive around it.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  But it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and it starts to take up the whole highway. And now everything's crashing into it. So that's what would happen. Like, so when I was about five or six years old, I remember my mom crying in the bathroom. And I didn't know what was going on. And my sister, who's six years older than me, told me that mom is sick and that she's gonna die. And I didn't exactly know what that meant. I had a gerbil named Cutie and he had died. And I knew that that meant like, okay, you're not gonna see him anymore. But I didn't really know what that like meant, the gravity of it. And, uh, and they, they told her and they told us that she had six months to live. And then, um, they went in to do the surgery and the tumor had encapsulated, meaning white blood cells had surrounded it and encapsulated.

• 38:26Speaker 01

  So it didn't grow very much and they were, it grew, grew, but it hadn't impeded anything. They took it out. She was fine. But at the age of six, I was told your mom's got six months to live. And I didn't really understand what that meant. But when it happened again, when I was 11, and now they said, okay, she's got six months to live. And this time it had impinged on, um, her uterus and her ovaries. So they had to take her uterus and her ovaries. Well, over the course of the next 15 years or so, my mom ended up having like five or so. Every five or six months, they would tell us she had six months to live. And they would do a surgery and they would take another piece of her. They would take part of her bowel. They would take part of her.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  And it, it took her away from us because she was just constantly recovering from surgery, recovering from chemo. Like it was just, death was just ever present. It was always there. And so I think that I just, I was just very, I couldn't deny death. It was just always there. And so I wasn't, you know, I wasn't, I wanted to move towards it. I didn't want to run from it. Like, I was afraid of spiders. I didn't like spiders. And by the way, it's really, if you're gonna be afraid of something, be afraid of spiders rather than death, because everyone you know is gonna die and you're gonna die.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  But spiders, you could kind of stay away from if you wanted to, you know? But I was the opposite. I was weird. I was like, okay, I'm afraid of spiders. I'm gonna get a tarantula and I'm gonna put it in a glass tank right next to my bed. So the first thing that happens every morning when I wake up is I have to look at a giant spider. And it worked. I'm not afraid of spiders anymore. Like, if I see a house spider now, it like crawls my hand and I put it on a plant or whatever. Wow. I wanted to do the same thing with death. I was like, I'm just gonna be around this. I want to be around this. I want to not be afraid of it. And I started doing it. I found it very life-affirming, to the point where then I did what's called vigil volunteering, which is when, when people don't have family and they're in like a nursing home or a facility and they're imminently dying, meaning they're like unconscious.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Because, you know, we have this insane, because we don't spend any time with people who are dying. We have this bizarre Hollywood version of death where it's like, I loved you all. And then we like fall, you know, or like we just like fall asleep. And like, death does not look like that. Like, people, you know, like it's, it's, and, and when you talk to people who have a dying family member on hospice, like, they're like, oh, it's not that they died. They died without dignity. And it's like, no, he died the way people die. Like, you, they shut down, the machine doesn't notice stop, it keeps going. Yeah, it's rough. Oh, please. My mom, like, I remember thinking like, oh, God, is this how I'm gonna remember her? Like, seventy pounds yellow and curled up like an insect?

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Unconscious and breathing in this like horrifying, like something out of a movie? Thank God the answer is no. Like, that's not how your memory is kind. Like, that was a moment, it was hard to watch, it was hard to be there for, but she died the way people die. Like, people with cancer die that way. You know, and that's, that's natural, and you would know it if you had the opportunity to be around it. And I, I had a tremendous comfort in knowing, like, oh yeah, this is how it goes. Like, I know what an agonal breath sounds like. But when you're a vigil volunteer, like, I would just go and just sit in a room. Usually the overnight shift, and I would sit there for five, six hours, and I would read Winnie the Pooh out loud to like a person who's probably unconscious and can't hear me, but it was just something to read. It was something like, I didn't want to read something religious because I don't know what this person's religious feelings.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  I would read like some nice story, something warm, something, and like Winnie the Pooh felt like that to me. And I just, you know, being around that so much. I don't know, it, it, it, it really changed the way that I view things, but I just never, I don't know, I, I wanted to be of service, I continue to want to be of service. I have a skill set, I figured it out in high school when I joined the debate team, that I'm good at debate. And I thought, how can I use what I do to be of service? It was never, I'm very glad I've been blessed financially and I do really well.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  But, like, I just love the game, like, I love what I do, I'm really good at it, I love being really good at something, and I love using my skills to the service of people. At some point in the not-too-distant future, I will probably stop representing private clients and will probably start working for like a nonprofit agency, just doing like domestic violence cases pro bono or something like that. Like, I've already taken some steps to, to, to set that up for myself, because I think I'll always enjoy being in a courtroom and doing the thing, but I'm increasingly enjoying, you know, talking about big things with people, and I've been very blessed to have this, like, I didn't seek this out. Like, I really didn't, I sort of stumbled into this, this whole media presence thing, like, I never thought at 50

• 43:17Speaker 01

  that all of a sudden I'd be like walking down the street and people like, oh my God, you're that guy, like, and it's like I've become something of, people will take a selfie with me, I'm like, there's way better use of your phone than that, but, you know, it's, it's a really, I think there is something I, I didn't get it, because I, I'm me, so I don't really see me as clearly. But there's something I'm saying that is resonating with a very large audience. And it's making them feel something or see something that apparently has value to them. And so I'm, I'm doing that and I'm enjoying that. And I think that that's, that's what hospice work was for me too. It was like, yeah, this makes me feel something.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  This makes me feel like I'm of service. I'm, I'm serving some purpose that's a bigger purpose. I don't know. It's a feeling.

• 44:08Tom Bilyeu?

  Speaking of things that have value,

• 44:12Tom Bilyeu?

  negotiating, it's a very tricky thing to do well.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:17Tom Bilyeu?

  It's 10x trickier in a relationship because people feel almost icky about it.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:23Tom Bilyeu?

  How do you help people approach negotiating when you're talking about things like how frequently we have sex, what position we have sex in, who picks up the laundry?

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. So I, I, it's a, a, a great, I think, point of entry. And that is,

• 44:41Speaker 01

  how you ask the question very often dictates the answer.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  So there's an old joke, I don't know if you've ever heard, that two priests are talking to each other, one's a smoker and the other one's not. And they're debating over smoking, whether like you should smoke while you're praying. So they're both, they can't agree. They can't find accord. So they both agree they're gonna write the pope. So they write the pope a couple of weeks later. They meet up in the middle of the square and one of them says, I heard back, I was right. And the other one goes, no, no, no, I heard back. I was right. He's, what do you mean? He says, well, I wrote the pope and I said, hey, is it okay to smoke while you're praying? And he was like, no, when you're praying, like pray, pay attention to what you're doing. He's like, well, I wrote him and I said, is it okay to pray while I'm smoking? And he said, yeah, you should pray all the time, like pray whenever you can.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  So I say that to say, how you ask the question very often dictates the answer. So the question of why aren't we having sex as much as we used to, you're, you're off to a bad start. You're off to a terrible start. Like this is not a good negotiation. This is an invitation to feel attacked and to be defensive. That's what that is. Because it, the way you've parsed this is you're failing me. You're getting it wrong. Whereas if the entry point was, I love feeling close to you. Like one of my favorite things about, remember, you know what I was thinking about yesterday? You remember when we were first dating? And we went to that, we got tickets to that thing and we were staying in that hotel. And we never ended up going to the thing.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Cause we were just rolling around in the bed in the hotel. You remember that? Like, now, okay, who's not gonna be like, oh yeah, I remember that. That was really, I was so like, you know what, like, we haven't done that so long. Like, I love, I love our like, physical connection. Like, I love it, man. Like, it's so, I don't know the last time I told you that, but man, it's so good. I'm so glad. Dude, now, we have primed the pump, man. We are ready. Like, now we're gonna have, because what's this about? I wanna be good at this. I wanna feel, I want to be good at being your, and I want to want only you. We made an agreement that we're gonna just, we're gonna be each other's sexual outlet. I want to meet your needs sexually and I want you to meet mine. I don't wanna, like,

• 47:05Speaker 01

  I believe, and I know a little of your marriage.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  I think you have sex with as many women as you want to. That's a cool way to say it. I think you do. I think you have sex with this, but you're, I think you and Andrew Tate, or anybody else in the ministry, have sex with as many women as you want to. And I think that's awesome. Like, I think you have sex with as many women as you want to, and it happens to be one. Like, I murder and rape as many people as I want to. Which is zero, cause I'm not a monster, right? But it's, I don't not do it because it's illegal. And I'm afraid I'll get in trouble. No, I don't, I don't do it, cause like, so, I think ideally,

• 47:55Speaker 01

  you would want Lisa to only have sex with you because she finds sex with you deeply satisfying.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  When you've eaten, you're not hungry anymore. So she feels like you guys have sufficient quality and quantity of sex for her needs to be met. That you believe trading variety for depth is good? And that you guys feel you've found a real intimate connection together that you couldn't easily like reproduce with someone else? Like not, you know, I'd get in trouble. Or like, well, you know, then we might divorce. Like if the only thing keeping you from sleeping with other women is the threat of Lisa divorcing you, like, don't do her any favors, man. Like, I think at the end of the day, like, you guys sleep with as many people as you want to, and it's one, and that's great. That's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  But I'm willing to bet that part of that is that you guys have open connection about that, communication about that. You ask questions of like, hey, if something has changed, if we're having more sex, less sex, we're having different kind of sex, I'm having... But again, in the negotiation of it, so the way that you... Because the question was about negotiation.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  The example I always give is, I don't believe in like, I believe in radical honesty, but I also believe that like, sometimes it's good to like, take a different route somewhere. Like behavior modification, like I manipulate people's emotional state for a living. That's my job. Like courtroom lawyer, that's my job. I want the judge to feel sympathetic towards my client and dislike the other side. I want the other side to feel unsafe. I want them to feel scared. I want my client to feel safe and protected. I want, I want the court reporter to like me. Because then when we call a recess in testimony and they go in the back with the judge, they're gonna go, Jim's really good, he's a nice guy, he's a good lawyer, you know? So I want, I want to work everyone's emotional state in that room.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  So this is my job, is to like manipulate, that's what I mean when I say I'm a weapon. Like, I'm a weapon, my job is to manipulate everyone's emotional state. Now, I can use my powers for good, I can use my powers for evil. But why not leverage some of that in your own relationship? So, you know, if you say to your, like, you have a sexual desire that you're having, I don't know, it's like not in your current menu of things you and your spouse do, but it's something you want to try, something you want to do.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  You could say like, how could we never do da, da, da, da? Okay, now defensive position is not a good way to start. You could go without. Like, I don't want to say it out loud. It's a little, you know, I feel a little weird about it. You go elsewhere. You go like, hey, you know, like some of the, you know, like with your wife, you know, there's like something like it's kind of hard to do certain things with your wife and then look her in the eye, you know? So, okay, like, maybe that's the approach you take. Or maybe you take, I think, the very healthy approach of like, hey, who we are in bed and who we are in life doesn't have to be the same thing. Like, I, I don't know a lot of women that if you sent them a text that said, you know, you know, I respect you, right? You know, because in about 20 minutes, when I get home, it's going to seem like I don't. Just for a little while.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Like, I think most women would be like, okay, I'm in. That'll be interesting. Like, let's see what that turns into, you know? So, like, I think if your wife said to you like, listen, I love you and you're smart and you're great and we're building a life together and all that, but like, I kind of am going to objectify you right now. Like, I just, I think you're really hot and I want to have sex with you. Like, dude, I would be thrilled. I would be like, okay, this sounds great. Objectify me. I'm sick of being loved for my brain. Like, so, okay, that's all really good stuff. So, again, what's the entry point? Well, be creative, like, and lie a little bit. But, but again, with, with good reason, like, and the example I always give is, say to your, if you said to your wife, like, there's something you want to try, and you said, oh my God, the dream, I had a dream about you last, I can't even look you in the eye, the dream I had about you last night.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Like, what's she gonna, what was it?

• 51:49Tom Bilyeu?

  Right.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  What did you say? What did you say? No, I can't, honestly, I can't, I can't even, I can't even say it out loud. No, what was it? I don't know if it's like that I ate too much dairy. I don't know before I went to sleep. Like, I don't know what it was. I just, and then you say the thing you've been thinking you might want to do. And she's gonna probably react one of two ways. She's either gonna go, is that like something you want to try? And then you go, I don't know. Like, I didn't think it was, but maybe it is. Like, something in my brain brought it up and it was kind of hot. Like, okay, and maybe now we're having a dialogue about this. That's the negotiation. Or she's gonna go, oh, I would not be into that. And you go, you know, I know, like, it's so like, ugh, like, I don't know what it was. Like, that was, I mean, it's not that big of a deal to me. Or at least we're having a conversation now about it. But again, like,

• 52:34Speaker 01

  the entry point is from a place of connection. It's from a place of intrigue. It's from a place of storytelling. Like, I'm hooking you. That's the cheese in that trap, right? But like, again, all for the benefit of this relationship. Like, all for the benefit, because there's no downside to that. Like, to share with your partner what you want and what your desire and what you're feeling. Like, in a perfect world, you're absolutely right. You'd just be able to say, like, you know, babe, I've been having this thought lately. And by the way, if you did what I said earlier, where you built into your relationship these, these periodic check-ins, you know, and again, like, I don't like the idea, because I think there is like a measure what matters thing, and people that can reduce things to metrics and statistics

• 53:19Speaker 01

  a little too much. Like, I've seen people like Quantif, like, I represent a lot of quant people, and it's almost like they're on the spectrum, and they feel like they have to, everything has to be measured and everything. Like, Brian Johnson, God bless you, buddy, but that life looks miserable to me. Like, I honestly, like, I'm not eating that much kale. And I'm not, like, he eats so many pills, he's full. Like, you can keep it, man. Like, it's okay. Like, I'd say, I'll die sooner. I'm good. Like, I'll die sooner. That's fine. But, again, like, what, what was the purpose of all of this? The purpose is, like, hey, we want to be each other's, like, vibrant sexual partner. We want to have a good time. Why wouldn't you build into your relationship, a practice that, by the way, I think could be very fun and romantic? Like, wouldn't you want to hear, if, if, once a week, one of the questions

• 54:04Speaker 01

  we asked is, what were three times this week you wanted to, like, have sex with me? Like, I was doing something. What was it? Like, for men, it's easy. Oh, you were, like, bending over, picking up that thing. You know, like, but, oh, you were wearing that shirt, and when you, like, leaned over, I could see a little cleavage. Or, like, I'm sure there's some little thing, which, by the way, she might not even know, because, remember, we're different creatures.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Like, I bet.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  For me, right? My answer would be something very visual about her form. You know, like, like my partner would be like, oh, it's her form. Like you like leaned over, you bent over, I saw your cleaver, whatever it might be. It might be some very visual, I'm very visual or maybe auditory. Like it would be something like that. Women, a lot of times it might be that, but it might also be like, oh, when you asked me about this. Or when you like, you know, you were really tired. I had a, I had a woman who, we were talking about like, what? This is a romantic partner of mine and I had said to her, um, we were talking about like, what? What's something you find sexy about each other?

• 55:10Speaker 01

  And mine were like so obvious, like they were just typical things, you know? And she was like, oh, there's this way, there's a little bit of hair of yours that sticks up sometimes. And it sticks up because when you've been stressed, you like lean this way. And I can tell you had like a really stressful day at work because this little bit of hair is stuck up. Because you've, you've been like rubbing your temple. And she's like, and I think it's really sexy because it's like, it shows me that you were like really into it today. And really like working and I feel like I want to like, A, I want some of that intensity. And also that like, I want to like comfort and soothe you.

• 55:48Tom Bilyeu?

  Yeah.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Do you know how much time I've spent trying to get abs? Do you know, honestly, like, you know, many grilled chicken breasts I've eaten? And broccoli? It's insane how much I've worked on my obliques. And it turns out like this, like I could do that just right before I get home. Like I could just be out all day having fun and I just have to do that. Like, but it turns out then it would never have occurred to me that that's a thing. But again, you know how fun that conversation is? What a pleasure that conversation is. What a privilege to get to hear that. What a lovely thing to feel so seen and so loved and to know that there's something about me that I didn't even know this person finds attractive and likes. And that deepens our connection and just having that conversation is fun.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  And by the way, I'm not afraid either to like do the shadow side of that. Like, what's some things I did this week that made you not want to have sex with me? Like, was there a moment? And again, make it a praise sandwich, so it's fun. Like, what did I do right? What did I get wrong? What did I do? What could I do better? Instead of saying, what did I get wrong? What could I do better? You know? But what was a moment that made you less inclined to me? What was something I did that like made you turn, turned you off this week? I would want to know, wouldn't you?

• 57:02Tom Bilyeu?

  Yes.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So why not build that? And by the way, you don't think women want to have this conversation? Like, you know, men's magazines don't have the like, you know, take this quiz to see what your relationship's done. That's women's magazines. Like, that's women's. So if you think saying to your female partner, you know, hey, like, let's, let's, let's write each other a list of 50 things we love each other and let's, it's due next week. You don't think she's going to love that assignment? Even if she doesn't like doing it herself, she can't wait to hear yours. So she'll do the homework so she gets to hear yours. Like, and what does it cost? Nothing. What does it really take? Not much. It's not a math quiz. You're answering a question that like you actually know the, you don't have to study for that test.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Like, what are some things you like about this person? Like, we could, we could do this right now. Maybe not the sex part, but we could do this right now. Like, Tom, what are, what are, I'll tell you three things I like about you. You could tell me three things you like about me. That's nice. That's fun. Why wouldn't we do that? Like, you know, if we're really intimate and we're friends, you know, Tom, what are some things you think I could work on? Like, we've been talking for a while now. Like, what are some things you think I, I may not see? Like, the things I've said to you, like, that are the work of mine you've seen? What are some things? What do you think are some of my blind spots? What an easy thing. What a freak. But again, there'll never be a commercial for this. You can't sell it. It's got no price tag on it. Like you can't scale it, you can't make an app for it.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm sure you could find a way to make it an app. The check in, you know, you call it, I don't know. I just gave away the idea. There you go. Like make a little weekly app that sends a reminder and you have to send each other. Cool. Okay, somebody go do that. Somebody go do that. Like, but the reason we're not sending this message is that, again, like we wouldn't be focused on all this other shit. We wouldn't be chasing all these red herrings all day. If we went back to this core important thing and the simplicity of it. Because again, I said it to Lisa in our conversation. The four words. You're my favorite person. Like, that's the starting point of it. That should be the ending part, the ending point of it.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Like, I hope 50 years, whatever many years from now, that it's the last time that you're with your wife. It's the last conversation the two of you have. I really hope you get to say to each other, you're my favorite person. I may get five words at that point. You're still my favorite person. What a gift. What a gift, what a worthy pursuit. What other goal do you have that's as important as that one?

• 59:48Tom Bilyeu?

  That's awesome. Man, this has been incredible. Where can people engage with you?

• 59:53Speaker 01

  If you're walking around New York City and West Chelsea, you'll probably bump into me because I never leave like a three block radius. My gym is there, my jujitsu school is there, my office and my apartment are all within the same radius. So if you hang out by the vessel, you'll see me. You can find me on Instagram at NYC Divorce Lawyer. You can find my firm at NYCdivorces.com. You can find my YouTube channel at SextonShow.com. And yeah, that's, oh, you can find my book on Amazon or wherever fine books are sold. It's been translated now into Bulgarian, Ukrainian, Polish. There's a UK edition, so apparently, apparently the whole world's trying to figure it all out. And you can listen to it on Audible. You can go on Audible or Google Play or any of those. If you want to hear me talk for eight and a half hours.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  That's, it's a long, that's a lot of Sexton. But yeah, any of those places.

• 1:00:42Tom Bilyeu?

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