‘Landman’ is Back! Plus, ‘Pluribus’ Episode 3 and ‘Poker Face’ Searches for a New Home

Chris and Andy talk about the news that Rian Johnson is shopping around ‘Poker Face’ with Peter Dinklage replacing Natasha Lyonne in the wake of its Peacock cancellation (7:21). Then they react to the set photos from the upcoming ‘The Legend of Zelda’ movie (18:43), before discussing the premiere of ‘Landman’ Season 2 (25:31) and ‘Pluribus’ Episode 3 (44:56). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Additional Video Supervision: Donald LoBianco Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:32Speaker 01

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• 1:03Speaker 02

  I need sports staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk now.

• 1:09Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio in Karen Bass's Los Angeles, it's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:23Andy Greenwald?

  Feels great. Feels great to be back in a rainy city.

• 1:25Chris Ryan?

  Brought to you by an atmospheric river. Brought to you by Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady. We are back in LA where we do some of our best work.

• 1:33Andy Greenwald?

  We do some of our work.

• 1:34Chris Ryan?

  We do some of our work.

• 1:35Andy Greenwald?

  Definitely.

• 1:36Chris Ryan?

  It's young hobnob in the Jammie Dodger. We've returned from England.

• 1:41Andy Greenwald?

  This just come to you?

• 1:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I guess.

• 1:42Andy Greenwald?

  It's pretty good.

• 1:43Chris Ryan?

  I like hobnobs.

• 1:44Andy Greenwald?

  I love hobnobs. How do you feel about chocolate and orange flavors?

• 1:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, isn't that Jaffa cakes? Yeah, I'm not a big guy. Big time biscuit person, but we got Paddington, straight from Peru. We got Greenwald, straight from London, CR.

• 2:00Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know. Straight from birth.

• 2:03Chris Ryan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:03Andy Greenwald?

  Happy birthday, kid. Today's Chris's birthday. He's being modest.

• 2:08Chris Ryan?

  I think I've potted a lot on my birthday.

• 2:10Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think?

• 2:11Chris Ryan?

  Does your birthday always go a day later, right? Every year, right?

• 2:14Andy Greenwald?

  Except for leap year when it skips another day.

• 2:16Chris Ryan?

  I feel like I've potted a lot in my birthday historically. But I pot a lot, so that would, that would figure, you know?

• 2:20Andy Greenwald?

  Do you remember some of your greatest birthday pods?

• 2:22Chris Ryan?

  No, I'll have to have, that'll be a new project.

• 2:24Andy Greenwald?

  Do you remember any of your pods? Cause I don't.

• 2:28Chris Ryan?

  Andy was very nice. He got me this incredible T-shirt. It says Philadelphia basketball and it is a image.

• 2:35Andy Greenwald?

  Of a meniscus.

• 2:36Chris Ryan?

  Of Joel Embiid's meniscus.

• 2:40Chris Ryan?

  We're gonna hope that that, that means that, that like those days are behind him and he has a regenerative.

• 2:45Andy Greenwald?

  It's fun because when I got that T-shirt, we were just in the glory days of like VJ Edgecomb and like, Joe looks pretty good. And then between the time this arrived, and me giving it to you on your birthday, his other knee has now gone a bit wonky.

• 2:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 2:58Andy Greenwald?

  But shout out by the way to the artist Heavy Slime, at Heavy Slime.

• 3:01Chris Ryan?

  On Instagram.

• 3:02Andy Greenwald?

  On Instagram, Eric Kenny, who I discovered because he designed a bespoke Dark Hearts T-shirt for the production of Task.

• 3:10Chris Ryan?

  Did he really?

• 3:10Andy Greenwald?

  He did. He did. His stuff's really sick. I really recommend it. At Heavy Slime.

• 3:15Chris Ryan?

  One thing about you.

• 3:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 3:16Chris Ryan?

  You don't gatekeep.

• 3:18Andy Greenwald?

  So, okay, so you wanna talk about that? We figured, so first of all, Chris looks great on his birthday. It's these shades of Eagles green that I really appreciate.

• 3:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, for Nakobe.

• 3:26Andy Greenwald?

  And the sweater you got from a lovely Japanese boutique.

• 3:30Chris Ryan?

  I did.

• 3:31Andy Greenwald?

  Store.

• 3:31Chris Ryan?

  I did.

• 3:32Andy Greenwald?

  By Borough Market in London called Jackman.

• 3:34Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:34Andy Greenwald?

  A place that I have shopped, where I have shopped.

• 3:37Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 3:37Andy Greenwald?

  And I was so excited to direct you there and it worked out.

• 3:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and I dapped you up. I said, that was a great recommendation, dude.

• 3:44Andy Greenwald?

  And so what you pointed out though was that while I don't gatekeep, I insist on Columbus-ing.

• 3:49Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 3:50Andy Greenwald?

  Which is a very specific, very specific thing. So your example.

• 3:55Chris Ryan?

  Most of our text message threads are you being like, holy shit, have you heard this? And me screenshotting the six week ago thing of me being like, you really like this? I love it, you know? And you're like, "Look, it's geese."

• 4:08Andy Greenwald?

  No, no.

• 4:08Chris Ryan?

  The band.

• 4:10Andy Greenwald?

  In my defense, on the topic of geese.

• 4:13Chris Ryan?

  Also, geese is now for, I claim no, like.

• 4:16Andy Greenwald?

  Sports guy dropping geese refs.

• 4:18Chris Ryan?

  I saw that.

• 4:19Andy Greenwald?

  So.

• 4:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:22Andy Greenwald?

  My.

• 4:22Chris Ryan?

  They're everywhere, you know?

• 4:23Andy Greenwald?

  Would you care to comment on that?

• 4:24Chris Ryan?

  I think that's great that Bill's getting back into contemporary music.

• 4:27Andy Greenwald?

  My thing about geese wasn't that I was discovering them. It was more that I understood the assignment with this record that I needed to focus.

• 4:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:36Andy Greenwald?

  In an old school way, that I couldn't just like, in between my daughters being like, I really like Cat's Eye and the Marias, I could like, drop in and out of it. I needed to be exactly where I was on Friday, which was.

• 4:49Chris Ryan?

  You could throw Trinidad on, on the school run? No?

• 4:52Andy Greenwald?

  I was trying to, I did actually spend some time wondering how I would set it up.

• 4:56Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 4:56Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 4:59Andy Greenwald?

  Considering that, what's the refrain? There's a bomb in my car?

• 5:02Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:03Andy Greenwald?

  Which was a plot point in USA's short-lived television show Briar Patch. My children saw the trailer for that show five or six years ago, and one of my daughters says that that traumatized her.

• 5:14Chris Ryan?

  Really?

• 5:15Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. Which is why I declined a second season.

• 5:18Chris Ryan?

  That's really big of you.

• 5:19Andy Greenwald?

  Family first. Anyway, I was, the perfect time to really get into that geese record was coming off of six weeks of work in London, three hours of sleep, and a, you know, some smoked chalk stream trout at the lounge at Heathrow. Just like, I am in a little bubble now, and I'm gonna go listen to the bards of Brooklyn friends.

• 5:42Chris Ryan?

  Did you watch much on the flight home? I always love to get your updates where you're like.

• 5:46Andy Greenwald?

  I did.

• 5:46Chris Ryan?

  You did, you watch Materialists, that's right. You were texting me.

• 5:49Andy Greenwald?

  Which camera's mine? Guys, I'd like to speak on behalf of six months ago and say, woof.

• 5:56Chris Ryan?

  I kind of enjoyed it.

• 5:57Andy Greenwald?

  With the charisma she brought to Madame Web comes.

• 6:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I watched that, but then I also did, cause you know, I'm always about the pod. So I was watching Pluribus, I was catching up with Down Cemetery Road.

• 6:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I was doing, I was putting in numbers.

• 6:14Chris Ryan?

  We have a good show for you today. I think it's a great show, but a lot of that depends on how we, how we interact with each other rather than what we talk about, you know?

• 6:21Andy Greenwald?

  Oh. Isn't that always the case?

• 6:23Chris Ryan?

  We are talking about the season premiere of the second season of Landman today.

• 6:26Andy Greenwald?

  Happy birthday.

• 6:27Chris Ryan?

  Thanks.

• 6:27Andy Greenwald?

  You're fucking welcome.

• 6:30Chris Ryan?

  And we're also talking about the third episode of Pluribus Grenade. Some spoilers for both of those episodes, but first some news, not not personal news. I feel pretty good, you know?

• 6:41Andy Greenwald?

  You seem great.

• 6:42Chris Ryan?

  I don't feel a day older than 46, to be honest.

• 6:45Andy Greenwald?

  Is that because, oh, no, it's the opposite. You are actually deep into your 48th year because of you're still on Greenwich Mean Time.

• 6:52Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 6:52Andy Greenwald?

  Like I am.

• 6:53Chris Ryan?

  That's right. I have to say, I, I don't feel deterred by my last two weeks in London in terms of like the drinking.

• 7:01Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, you're a champion.

• 7:02Chris Ryan?

  Honestly, the smoking, if I'm, you know, I hope my health insurance isn't listening.

• 7:07Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sure they're only just scanning it.

• 7:11Andy Greenwald?

  They probably watch it on YouTube.

• 7:12Chris Ryan?

  I think I, I think I still have my like, I still, I have an electric arm. You know what I mean? The ball still comes out. Nobody knows where it's going, kind of like golf, you know?

• 7:20Andy Greenwald?

  No, it's not. It's not just that. You can just play pickup and get back into it. You know what I mean? Like, like you're the Brandon Graham of this. Some thought you retired six months ago and then you're like, you know what? I would like to go back to live fire. Like, I want in.

• 7:35Chris Ryan?

  I want back on Thirsty Thursdays.

• 7:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. I, uh, my time in the beautiful United Kingdom was, was, was rich and rewarding.

• 7:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:44Andy Greenwald?

  And I'm going back very soon, but, uh, I learned a lot about myself and a lot about my limits. And you and your lovely wife showed up and you showed me that it's all.

• 7:56Chris Ryan?

  There are no limits.

• 7:56Andy Greenwald?

  There are no limits.

• 7:57Chris Ryan?

  It's no limit.

• 7:58Andy Greenwald?

  You are Bradley Cooper in the movie about limits. You are unbelievable. You guys are able to just dig deep and become young again. When I was like, ah, I will move my body with the rhythm and alacrity of a 21 year old me in Manhattan.

• 8:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:13Andy Greenwald?

  And then I was like, what is this pain radiating from my hips into my liver? It just makes me feel sad.

• 8:19Chris Ryan?

  Or is it the other way around? It's liver into hips. What do we want to do today? Well, we have a couple of news items that we wanted to catch up on. The most interesting one, I think, for conversational purposes is the Poker Face news. Now, this was a show that we discussed fairly in depth in the first season. The Natasha Lyonne mystery, an homage to Columbo that was on Peacock. It came from Ryan Johnson. He would, was very hands on in the first season is my understanding and the second season, perhaps a little less so. What?

• 8:48Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, my understanding of it is like with many of these contemporary.

• 8:52Chris Ryan?

  All right, Shams, just drop the.

• 8:53Andy Greenwald?

  TV project. I don't, I don't have any, I don't have any bombs. I just think that. You could probably count on one hand the number of high-profile creators who have said they would take a step back in subsequent seasons who have taken a step back. It's just not in their DNA, and nor is it necessarily what studios and streamers want. I mean, an example for that was Ben Stiller saying he was happy to have launched Rocket Ship Severance and would be less involved in the second season. And I think the second season makes it clear that he was not less involved.

• 9:22Chris Ryan?

  Right. Well, he directed a bunch of the episodes.

• 9:24Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 9:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And now he's saying he's not directing any of the third season?

• 9:27Andy Greenwald?

  We'll see. Again, I'm not saying that like to be judgy, like he's the creative, one of the key creative forces behind that show. So I think that something like Pokerface, when you have a Ryan Johnson, you have a Natasha Lyonne, who are proven creators and headliners.

• 9:40Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 9:41Andy Greenwald?

  That that is never going to be a, they're never going to be minority owners.

• 9:47Chris Ryan?

  Okay. So that this is all changing because Pokerface is done at Peacock. I guess, would you call it canceled?

• 9:53Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 9:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I'd call it canceled. And Natasha Lyonne is stepping away from the role of Charlie. She's done. Ryan Johnson would like to get this show on another streamer.

• 10:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 10:05Chris Ryan?

  And he would like Peter Dinklage to take over the role of Charlie. And now in his pitch to the world and obviously to the networks, he's saying each, each person playing Charlie, ala Doctor Who, I guess, would then-

• 10:19Andy Greenwald?

  Good pull by you.

• 10:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, would basically like do two years and step away. And so it would be a limited time commitment, but a long-running show or forever-running show. I would imagine that they are going to continue with the show, the crime, and then the person comes into the situation and solves it, much like Columbo. What do you think of this news? And do you think, do you think he's got a shot here at selling this and selling this idea?

• 10:42Andy Greenwald?

  So the one of, the reason why it's possible is not just because of the, the big names involved in it, but because it is, the show is made by MRC, which is an independent studio. So it was sold to Peacock and Peacock said, no, thank you. And MRC retains the rights to the show and they could sell it somewhere else. So it's not like they had to extract it from Universal. So it is plausible that they could sell it somewhere else. I'm very- Skeptical that they will, although I've often been very, very wrong about things like this. I think the odds of the show continuing are really wrapped up in the strange shifting narrative around the show itself.

• 11:21Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 11:22Andy Greenwald?

  When the show was announced and got a splashy, I think, immediate two-season pickup from Peacock, there was a bidding war for it.

• 11:27Chris Ryan?

  I believe so.

• 11:28Andy Greenwald?

  All of the press around it was Ryan Johnson expressing his, I think, quite sincere love for old-fashioned crime of the week procedural television. And he was like, I've got a spin on it. As it turned out, he did. He had a great, that pilot episode is incredible on the page and in real life.

• 11:43Chris Ryan?

  Then there are highlight episodes I would, I would point to across the two-season run, though I did not care for the second season as much as the first season.

• 11:50Andy Greenwald?

  I agree with that.

• 11:52Andy Greenwald?

  The, we got on mics on this podcast and we were like, this is incredibly smart. This is not what we had been seeing a lot of, of high-profile creators coming to TV to do vanity projects or more indulgent projects. This is high-profile creators saying, we're gonna make a TV show. And we were, and, and that also seemed to fit in with the mandate that we believe would be a successful one for Peacock, which maybe they believe too, because now they've just bought Taylor Sheridan to provide television shows for them. Anyway, in reality of how contemporary television is made, that ended up being kind of a pipe dream. But because of the starry nature of it, because of the heavy involvement of very busy creators

• 12:33Andy Greenwald?

  like Ryan Johnson, like Natasha Lyonne, the show absolutely did not hit its mark, to my mind, as a dependable, week-to-week procedural, because there were two or three years between seasons.

• 12:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you could chalk some of that up to strikes, right?

• 12:46Andy Greenwald?

  For sure. But even so, the, the tempo of the show was clearly never going to be what it had been sold as. And then the second season really leaned into the fact that it wasn't necessarily crime of the week, it was more celeb of the week, like all the guest stars and their Rolodexes who would show up, making some charming appearances and charming whatever. So that-

• 13:06Andy Greenwald?

  That was more the rubber meeting the road of how TV is actually made these days. And I feel like it speaks to kind of the crux of Rian Johnson that maybe is also relevant for the Knives Out conversation and maybe his entire career, which is, do you think that he most wants to be an innovator or a traditionalist? Because he keeps taking on these assignments, saying, whether it was Star Wars, or Agatha Christie, whodunnit, or procedural TV, saying, my brain works a certain way and I've cracked it. I can do this within the system.

• 13:36Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 13:37Andy Greenwald?

  And then the things that he does are often more radical than what had come before.

• 13:42Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:43Andy Greenwald?

  And whether you like it or you dislike it, it doesn't always, it doesn't, it doesn't meet, it doesn't set a template for continued success within that.

• 13:51Chris Ryan?

  It's interesting you should say that. So I was thinking about him in a relationship to Edgar Wright, who had Running Man come out this past weekend.

• 13:57Andy Greenwald?

  And you've seen it.

• 13:58Chris Ryan?

  I have seen it and I enjoyed it, but it did not do, I think, as well as people hoped it would do.

• 14:02Andy Greenwald?

  It got edged out by the Magic movie.

• 14:04Chris Ryan?

  Now you see me, now you don't, three. Yeah. And those two guys are, I don't know if they're, how close they are in age, but they are both like huge fanatics of cinema. And I think both have and held a lot of promise coming up in fairly independent circles. You know, obviously Wright in England with the Cornetto trilogy and then Rian Johnson initially with Brick, you know, and kind of like this sort of really like signature film that came, like, I think people were, and Looper 2, which showed like a really competent ability to move from genre to genre and have some wildly creative swings within those kinds of walls of whatever, like the traditional sort of storytelling

• 14:49Chris Ryan?

  you'd expect from those kinds of movies.

• 14:50Andy Greenwald?

  I don't want to interrupt you, but I think it's a great, great pairing because they did both seem like the princes who are potentially promised of kids, grown up kids who love the action figures, but were willing to take them out of their boxes and play with them.

• 15:02Chris Ryan?

  And they've had mixed success when they've stepped into those franchises. So obviously Wright was involved with the original version of Ant-Man.

• 15:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 15:09Chris Ryan?

  And was one of Marvel's big like, oh, we fuck with anybody. Like, we'll go out and get the best filmmaker for this job. And let them cook psych, you know, and then now I don't know actually what happened behind the scenes with Ant-Man or what like eventually was like sort of agreed upon narrative of like, why Wright stepped away from the project. Obviously, Rian Johnson made one of the best Star Wars films, I think, in my opinion. Um, but wound up getting thrown into some of the dumbest culture war stuff that we've had in the 21st century. And was not, did not come back even at one point, there was going to be another trilogy that he was going to do.

• 15:46Andy Greenwald?

  That felt kind of like a golden parachute.

• 15:48Chris Ryan?

  Right. Like there was like the Benny Affenless time. There was the Rian Johnson time. That didn't work out. And now he's kind of settled into this knives out thing. Although I don't always find it to be the most comfortable cloak for him to wear because I feel like every time one of these movies comes out, he has a somewhat public disagreement with Netflix about the amount that it's going to be in theaters. And I'm like, well, there is an art fluke. So you know, I mean, like, I maybe somebody somewhere said like, hey, and we're also going to give this a run. And then it finally gets up to Ted Sarandos and he's like, no, like that's not the model, you know? Um, I don't know what their careers are like if they just keep making their movies, you know? And they, they keep, they stay out of those franchises. But Rian Johnson seems to have a very, very good eye for scaling his stuff.

• 16:30Andy Greenwald?

  That's well said. Yeah.

• 16:31Chris Ryan?

  And so there is a, a world in which knives out is just a one-off Agatha Christie tribute, but I think it very quickly after the first one became a, I would make these for the rest of my career for as long as Daniel Craig wants to do them. And there's like a huge potential for these. And there's a lot of similarities between knives out and Poker Face in terms of like, obviously actors really want to be in these. They're happy to do small parts. This new one has like Jeremy Renner and Chris Kerry Washington and Glenn Close and Josh O'Connor and the list goes on.

• 16:59Andy Greenwald?

  Andrew Scott, Kelly Spaney.

• 17:00Chris Ryan?

  Exactly. So it's an interesting way to like, watching those two guys navigate their careers, navigate their successes and failures is really fascinating.

• 17:08Andy Greenwald?

  And navigate the contemporary moment, which is to say that like their careers probably would have looked a lot different in the seventies and eighties when the options available to them would be different. Or maybe they are because of their love of a certain type of pop culture and their willingness to play with pastiche, they work only in this era.

• 17:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:24Andy Greenwald?

  Right? Where you can, I mean, one of the reasons that the Knives Out movies attracts the cast isn't just because they've been successful. It's not just because they've been on Netflix. It's not just because, and I'm speaking hypothetically, Ryan might be a really nice guy who runs a good process. Like, people might like to work with him. All of that is respectable. I think that part of the reason might also be that they all get the wink, wink brief. Like, they know what they're signing up for.

• 17:45Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 17:45Andy Greenwald?

  Because they understand it's so well communicated that this is a flavor that has been sampled in the past.

• 17:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Yes. Now, my question about Poker Face, really, is, do you think the public has voted? Or is there a new iteration of this show that feels completely different from the Natasha Lyonne one?

• 18:04Andy Greenwald?

  I...

• 18:06Chris Ryan?

  I have no idea, because I don't really know. It's very hard for me to tell, like, is Poker Face, well, at its height, what was Poker Face's, like, impact or success?

• 18:15Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that's the other thing. How successful would Natasha Lyonne's Poker Face have been at Netflix? Which is really just a question, to your point of scale. Like, that does seem like, that type of show, showing up every two years, but building a library within service.

• 18:31Chris Ryan?

  Netflix. Yeah.

• 18:32Andy Greenwald?

  Feels like something that could work there.

• 18:34Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 18:34Andy Greenwald?

  Like, when you see just stuff drop on there and suddenly, you know, takes over and becomes number one, like, like the Suits phenomenon. I mean, that, that would make more sense. We don't know how it performed for Peacock, and we don't know how it performs as a library title for Peacock. And we also don't know what their aims were.

• 18:54Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:56Andy Greenwald?

  So it all feels a little bit opaque. But it, I, he hasn't said anything about that. He does speak about the Netflix frustrations, but I wonder if he had any frustrations about the, I don't know.

• 19:07Chris Ryan?

  About the Peacock side?

• 19:08Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think, you put it to me, do you think that he will find a home for the Peter Dinklage Poker Face and the show will continue?

• 19:16Chris Ryan?

  I'm gonna say yes. Yeah. Because I do think actually like, I mean, he's obviously just had a very successful relationship with Netflix. And while they may banter back and forth about theatrical release, it just seems like if they could make the budgets work and-

• 19:31Andy Greenwald?

  If they can make the numbers work, that it would be the most stable place because they want to keep him happy. He wants to be happy. He wants the show to be seen.

• 19:38Chris Ryan?

  And presumably Netflix could buy the Poker Face library and just be like, now there's like multiple seasons of this.

• 19:44Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's the only way they would do it.

• 19:46Speaker 00

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• 21:06Speaker 06

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• 21:36Chris Ryan?

  We're agreed.

• 21:37Andy Greenwald?

  Wow, okay, settled. What's our next issue? Is there any other sort of discord in the country right now?

• 21:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I saw a picture from the live action Zelda.

• 21:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, you sent that to me.

• 21:46Chris Ryan?

  And it's looking real Frodo hours.

• 21:47Andy Greenwald?

  I texted that right to my daughter, like instantly.

• 21:50Chris Ryan?

  Like you were like, and did you Columbus?

• 21:51Andy Greenwald?

  I was like, look what I found on the internet.

• 21:56Andy Greenwald?

  Apropos of nothing. I, this is why I work these fucking hours for you.

• 22:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:04Andy Greenwald?

  My daughter.

• 22:05Chris Ryan?

  Uh, is it, is this, do I misremember Zelda? Is it, is there like a hobbit in this like?

• 22:11Andy Greenwald?

  No, they're, um, my dear Chris, which camera?

• 22:16Andy Greenwald?

  They are members of the Hylion race.

• 22:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:18Andy Greenwald?

  They have elvish ears.

• 22:20Chris Ryan?

  I don't think I've played this game since it was on like a PC.

• 22:26Andy Greenwald?

  Like it was, it was never.

• 22:28Chris Ryan?

  I played it like on.

• 22:30Andy Greenwald?

  NES.

• 22:31Chris Ryan?

  NES.

• 22:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 22:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I beat it.

• 22:33Andy Greenwald?

  Good job.

• 22:36Andy Greenwald?

  Happy birthday. You are the best.

• 22:38Chris Ryan?

  Let me, I'm gonna do a list of video games I've beat. Hold on.

• 22:40Andy Greenwald?

  Shinobi.

• 22:41Chris Ryan?

  Keep talking.

• 22:41Andy Greenwald?

  Revenge of Shinobi.

• 22:42Chris Ryan?

  I fucking.

• 22:43Andy Greenwald?

  Shinobi 3.

• 22:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 22:44Andy Greenwald?

  That game was sick.

• 22:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Dudes, like when I go to Japan, guys are like.

• 22:51Chris Ryan?

  We heard about you.

• 22:54Andy Greenwald?

  No one, no one has brought the ethos of Joe Shinobi.

• 23:00Chris Ryan?

  I know.

• 23:01Andy Greenwald?

  Incredible. One of my favorite things.

• 23:03Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 23:04Andy Greenwald?

  Small detour here about 90s era video games that you'd play like on Sega Genesis.

• 23:08Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 23:09Andy Greenwald?

  Is you'd be playing Revenge of Shinobi, again, super sick, double jump, and then you throw the throwing stars. You'd get, you'd like beat the bosses and they would all be like, big fat ninja or whatever, like ninja that drops from the sky. And then like the villain of like the sixth board would be Spider-Man. Like fully Spider-Man, but with a little bit of a different costume.

• 23:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:28Andy Greenwald?

  Because someone.

• 23:29Chris Ryan?

  Spider gent.

• 23:30Andy Greenwald?

  Someone, they wouldn't even say why, or like Batman would be the villain because someone at Sega was just freelancing. I would be like, you know, who'd be sick?

• 23:37Chris Ryan?

  Shinobi fought Batman.

• 23:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. And then the lawyers were like, did, did, did, did. But they didn't actually change it because nobody was paying attention to that shit.

• 23:44Chris Ryan?

  Would that happen in Mortal Kombat?

• 23:45Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, not to my knowledge, but you.

• 23:47Chris Ryan?

  Maybe I got to some secret level you never got to.

• 23:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, on the PC because yours is better at it.

• 23:52Chris Ryan?

  No, I was, I got confused because I, uh, Montezuma's Revenge I beat on the computer. Which was, it took a long time.

• 23:58Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 23:59Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 23:59Andy Greenwald?

  You put in the hours.

• 24:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Andy Greenwald?

  Only child life is real. Um, Zelda is a very front of mind concern in my household because Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom have been massive, massive dad, daughter adventure, adventure rings. Uh, we were still playing it yesterday because my younger daughter's like, let's go do something fun or cool. Cause that these games are so rich and there's so many weird little side stories you can do.

• 24:24Chris Ryan?

  You know, Red Dead Redemption also has side stories if you ever want to play that.

• 24:27Andy Greenwald?

  With my children.

• 24:32Andy Greenwald?

  Gross. The words Grand Theft Auto have lost their meaning for a few generations.

• 24:37Chris Ryan?

  The story of the OK Corral.

• 24:39Andy Greenwald?

  Did you know, fun fact about me, um, did you know that I did a voice in Grand Theft Auto III?

• 24:45Chris Ryan?

  Yes, I remember this. Yeah. When, this is during your video game Empressario days.

• 24:50Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right.

• 24:50Chris Ryan?

  When you were reviewing games?

• 24:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, when I was the fucking Armand White of the fifth generation home consoles.

• 24:58Chris Ryan?

  You play a ninja?

• 25:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I played Spider-Man. Um. Okay, so this is relevant. So I sent that image, which does look ripped straight from a cutscene from Breath of the Wild. That is the visuals of the game, more or less, of this beautiful open world and meadows, and that's the way Zelda and Link are dressed in the game. I sent it to my daughter, and her instantly wrote, "I wish it was animated."

• 25:21Chris Ryan?

  Oh!

• 25:22Andy Greenwald?

  She does not, she was like, this is, basically, the takeaway is it was very cosplay.

• 25:26Chris Ryan?

  And is she excited for Moana in that same, or skeptical of Moana in that same way?

• 25:30Andy Greenwald?

  Completely uninterested.

• 25:31Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 25:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think that, um, this interesting thing about the Zelda thing is that there is, with Mario, the Mario movie was like a cartoon that just had, threw a lot of like, signifiers, and it's for kids, and it, you're just, it's just fun and silly, because we all understand that it's absolute gibberish.

• 25:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 25:50Andy Greenwald?

  We tried to make sense of like, these-

• 25:51Chris Ryan?

  The story.

• 25:52Andy Greenwald?

  These plumbers from Brooklyn, like, going into a mushroom kingdom.

• 25:55Chris Ryan?

  Are they from Brooklyn? You sure that, from Staten Island?

• 25:57Andy Greenwald?

  I want to say they're from Queens, in support of our new mayor-elect. Like, I feel like everything's coming up Queens these days.

• 26:02Chris Ryan?

  Did you think those guys voted Cuomo?

• 26:04Andy Greenwald?

  No, they're Sliwa. Thousand percent Sliwa.

• 26:08Chris Ryan?

  Get these turtles!

• 26:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, he takes a real interest in animal life in the city. Um, "They're turtles in the sewers" absolutely sounds like a Sliwa campaign commercial. Um, the Zelda thing is so deep video game in a way that I don't understand how they're gonna translate it, because basically, there have been ten to fourteen iterations, that all are kind of like, Link must save Zelda in a world with this name, but every time, the world is different, and Link doesn't talk.

• 26:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 26:39Andy Greenwald?

  So, they're really, and Zelda gets kidnapped, and he rescues her at the end. So either it's a screenwriter's dream to be like, "I shall write the fantasy adventure romance that I've always wanted to write, and put it in this world with fish people called the Zora," or they're trying to wrap reason around absolute, like-

• 26:57Andy Greenwald?

  Crazy brain, 80s Nintendo nonsense.

• 27:01Chris Ryan?

  I'm just wondering-

• 27:01Andy Greenwald?

  And I think they wanted more like, they kind of just were like, the stories in the games are fun and sweet, so just-

• 27:06Chris Ryan?

  Just like, let's have some iconic moments that show up on screen.

• 27:08Andy Greenwald?

  Just throw the cutscenes together, basically.

• 27:10Chris Ryan?

  Or also, if you just put out a Zelda movie, people will probably take their kids to go see it.

• 27:13Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I would. Would you take your word?

• 27:15Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I saw an ad yesterday for adopting teens, and it was like-

• 27:20Andy Greenwald?

  Was it service to you because of how you talk about it?

• 27:22Chris Ryan?

  No, it was like, and it was like, um-

• 27:26Chris Ryan?

  I can't remember what it was like, but it was basically like, give me someone to look up to, and it's like a older man like, looking up to a tall teenager, and I was like, this is-

• 27:35Andy Greenwald?

  That's your dream. It's like you and Jalen Phillips. Be like, "Ah, my son, you are so strong." If only you could be trained in the arts of-

• 27:47Chris Ryan?

  Does your daughter want all live-action films animated? Like, would she advocate for animated materialists?

• 27:54Andy Greenwald?

  Huh, great question. First of all, thank you. Um, I think she would have been more drawn by the caveman plot that bookends the film.

• 28:02Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 28:02Andy Greenwald?

  You know, I thought that was pretty radical. Uh, no, no, I think she likes, I think she likes things to stay in their light. Maybe she is kind of a traditionalist.

• 28:10Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 28:11Andy Greenwald?

  You know, she likes a, she likes cartoon, like a classic Disney cartoon, and then she likes, uh, mostly Jane Austen adaptations. So that's pretty much, um, and Wicked for Good.

• 28:21Chris Ryan?

  Does she like Landman?

• 28:24Andy Greenwald?

  Why do you ask me if I like Landman? You coward.

• 28:27Chris Ryan?

  Well, okay, you know what? I find this to be a little bit of he doth protest too much. I never said you have to watch the second season of Landman. Like, you've been like, you, I can't believe you're making me do this. I never said we have to do it.

• 28:40Andy Greenwald?

  First of all-

• 28:40Chris Ryan?

  I think you, I think you got a little taste, you know?

• 28:45Chris Ryan?

  And the, the sweet oils are flowing again on West Texas, and you want to back in.

• 28:50Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, there is something comforting about a show that really privileges the idea of a world, a country, nay, a state, in which a man can just lecture a woman on anything at any time for as long as he wants to, and she will stand there and be like, "Great point, sir. I will have someone buy you cigarettes."

• 29:13Chris Ryan?

  Are you, you cannot view this show through that lens.

• 29:17Andy Greenwald?

  You don't think I should view it through a woke lens?

• 29:19Chris Ryan?

  No, I didn't say that.

• 29:20Andy Greenwald?

  Uh huh.

• 29:20Chris Ryan?

  You said that. I just meant like if you're going to this show to have your political and social convictions affirmed, I don't think you're gonna enjoy it.

• 29:28Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 29:29Chris Ryan?

  It's more formal than that.

• 29:30Andy Greenwald?

  I see. No, I see. Please, tell me more. I'm ready to talk about the show. I just, I just do think the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was somehow I watched the season premiere before you did.

• 29:41Chris Ryan?

  I was like, oh yeah, is it up?

• 29:42Andy Greenwald?

  That was so crazy. That was the sickest fucking flex you've ever texted me.

• 29:48Chris Ryan?

  You texted that at like seven in the morning and you'd watched it at like four, because we're still jet lagged.

• 29:52Andy Greenwald?

  We're so jet lagged. I was like, this is a perfect use of the hours of 5 a.m. to 6 a.m. On a Sunday, is to return to the adventures of, what's his, Tommy?

• 30:02Chris Ryan?

  Tommy, yeah.

• 30:03Andy Greenwald?

  Tommy and Co.

• 30:04Chris Ryan?

  And MTEx, right?

• 30:05Andy Greenwald?

  And I assumed that you had spent some of your downtime sweating off the pints last week, just digging into the screeners.

• 30:13Chris Ryan?

  No, I was watching, I was just watching Gavin and Stacy in Celebrity Traitors, you know, just trying to embed myself in the culture.

• 30:19Andy Greenwald?

  Literally all of my coworkers there.

• 30:20Chris Ryan?

  Um, okay, so Landman is back and um, I would give you a recap of what happened in the first season. The, the beginning of the episode has like a last season on Landman. I really don't know if any of that's gonna matter.

• 30:34Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know.

• 30:34Chris Ryan?

  Um, I've tried to diagnose what I think is, what makes the show so successful. In some ways, I don't wanna be too much of an anthropologist. I don't think anthropologists would be welcome in Landman, honestly. Can you imagine?

• 30:49Andy Greenwald?

  Hello, I am a social anthropologist. I'd like to talk to you about gender roles, or at least study yours. What's that you're drinking there, sir? And please, may I have some of that pasta? Go on.

• 31:01Chris Ryan?

  Um, it, it basically picks up where the last season ends, which spoilers for the first season of Landman, if you haven't watched it already. Jon Hamm dies of a heart attack.

• 31:10Andy Greenwald?

  Lucky guy.

• 31:11Chris Ryan?

  Monty, who would run MTEx, making it one of the biggest independent oil producers, or the biggest independent oil producer in the region.

• 31:18Andy Greenwald?

  No, he's apparently, we learned this episode. Was kind of an infamous son of a bitch.

• 31:22Chris Ryan?

  Well, I mean, I think he drove a hard bargain. But you know who drives a harder one?

• 31:25Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 31:26Chris Ryan?

  Kami.

• 31:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I do know.

• 31:27Chris Ryan?

  His widow, played by Demi Moore, who was in the first season. And one of the things you and I remarked upon a lot, you know, I'm, I am now becoming a bit of a sleuth when it comes to, I wonder if this person was on set the same day they shot the scene with this other person or?

• 31:43Andy Greenwald?

  A bit of a sleuth.

• 31:44Chris Ryan?

  But I gotta tell you.

• 31:45Andy Greenwald?

  A Benoit Blanc, if you will.

• 31:46Chris Ryan?

  I think Demi Moore, like, put the work in and put the time in and she is often seen swimming laps in the first season, getting out, handing Monty a smoothie, asking him to take his heart medication, telling him not to be stressed out, none of which he took to heart, and then his heart exploded because, uh, I think because of like a cartel action against his oil rig or something like that.

• 32:07Andy Greenwald?

  Sure. I don't think so.

• 32:08Chris Ryan?

  So we got the oil company deal. Uh, Monty has now, or Tommy has become the president of Ops.

• 32:15Andy Greenwald?

  De facto. This was one of, uh, one of Monty's last master strokes.

• 32:19Chris Ryan?

  He also made the lawyer a big deal there, too.

• 32:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but then I think, then I think posthumously from the afterlife, Monty read the Reddit response to that lawyer and was like...

• 32:29Chris Ryan?

  She's still in the cast. She's in the credits.

• 32:32Andy Greenwald?

  Great.

• 32:32Chris Ryan?

  Also in the credits, uh, billed third is Andy Garcia.

• 32:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 32:37Chris Ryan?

  Who has been in one scene in two seasons of this show so far, including this first episode, does not appear.

• 32:43Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think that now that we see, and we're gonna jump around a bit, obviously, but Demi Moore's performance as Kami in this, I think it's the best thing in this season premiere. I thought she was great. Is this the greatest slow planting of a major character since Bunny Colvin in season two of The Wire?

• 33:02Chris Ryan?

  I think, I think also it, it means as much to American history.

• 33:06Andy Greenwald?

  I think it does, too.

• 33:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Andy Greenwald?

  Both great leaders who had, uh, responsibility foisted upon them, thought outside the box.

• 33:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:13Andy Greenwald?

  And, um, that, and were also motivated by coeds giving blowjobs to 70-year-olds or no? Is that just Kami?

• 33:22Chris Ryan?

  I don't think that happened to Bunny Colvin, but that's a, that's a stirring scene when Kami comes across two young women in a hotel lobby bar, uh, bathroom, and they're talking about how they're gonna get a free trip to Tulum out of an oil executive.

• 33:35Andy Greenwald?

  Let me tell you something.

• 33:36Chris Ryan?

  By dealing out some BJ's, yeah.

• 33:38Andy Greenwald?

  The only thing that I can think of that hates young women more than Kami is the television show Landman.

• 33:47Andy Greenwald?

  And that's saying something. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go on the record with that. You can clip that, Kai. I feel strongly about that.

• 33:54Chris Ryan?

  Um, Cammy takes over this company. Uh, Tommy's still running it. It's basically the same playbook as last season. In terms of there is like, kind of a weekly crisis or whatever with the oil company. This one's really just Cammy's introduction to the sharks, or rather the

• 34:11Andy Greenwald?

  She introduces herself.

• 34:11Chris Ryan?

  Predators of the Serengeti, which is what they, they refer to the luncheon, uh, that Cammy is giving for all the other oil executives.

• 34:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:19Chris Ryan?

  Uh, some other plots going on. We are introduced to what we realize is Tommy's brother, right? Is it his brother or his father?

• 34:27Andy Greenwald?

  That's his father, dude.

• 34:28Chris Ryan?

  Is it?

• 34:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, his mom dies. You, you

• 34:31Chris Ryan?

  I thought they were like

• 34:32Andy Greenwald?

  We went over this.

• 34:33Chris Ryan?

  Oh, we did go over this. And I was like, there's no fucking way.

• 34:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Because they are about nine years apart in human age.

• 34:40Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 34:41Andy Greenwald?

  But I am here to tell you.

• 34:43Chris Ryan?

  Sam Elliott plays Billy Bob Thornton's dad.

• 34:45Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 34:47Chris Ryan?

  God damn it.

• 34:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 34:48Chris Ryan?

  I don't think that's right. There's a lot of things in Landman that I think are on the edge.

• 34:52Andy Greenwald?

  This is where you draw your line. This is a show in which

• 34:56Chris Ryan?

  Sorry for caring about age gaps. You know, I know it's not fashionable, but

• 35:00Andy Greenwald?

  There is a 15 minute scene in which Ally Larders has spent $3,000.

• 35:06Chris Ryan?

  I'm glad you timed it too, because it's actually 11 minutes, but it is mind blowing. But let's finish Sam Elliott first.

• 35:12Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I'm just saying, and in that scene, all of the setup and all of the money spent on truffles is so Billy Bob Thornton can be like, "The time of the month, huh, missy?" That's the plot.

• 35:25Chris Ryan?

  Well

• 35:25Andy Greenwald?

  And you're upset about Sam Elliott being someone's dad?

• 35:29Chris Ryan?

  I just was confused because his name is TJ. And I was like, oh, maybe, maybe his name's Tim John and then Tommy's name is Tommy.

• 35:36Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sorry, Tim John? Timjun?

• 35:40Andy Greenwald?

  Ah, Tim Jin. Nice to see you again.

• 35:44Chris Ryan?

  You're probably right. He's probably Tommy Senior. You know what I mean?

• 35:47Andy Greenwald?

  He's fucking Tommy Senior. He's 11-

• 35:48Chris Ryan?

  But that's, he's not that much older than Billy Bob Thornton.

• 35:51Andy Greenwald?

  He is 11 years older than him, which, considering the way Taylor Sheridan views masculinity, is possible.

• 35:57Chris Ryan?

  That's peak breeding age.

• 35:58Andy Greenwald?

  That is perfect. If you ask his daughter about, because this is also, his daughter walks into a college interview and delivers a beautiful monologue about eugenics.

• 36:08Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Did you find that scene funny?

• 36:11Andy Greenwald?

  I want to talk about it. We'll get there.

• 36:12Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so I think one of the major season-long arcs, obviously, is going to be Tommy's apparently father coming into the scene.

• 36:19Andy Greenwald?

  So, oh, maybe you think it's not really his father.

• 36:21Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, he's living in an Amarillo assisted living facility.

• 36:25Andy Greenwald?

  Also, wait, Chris, do you know how we know it's his father? Because within seconds of meeting him, a woman walks up to him and he explains how nature works to her. This man is near death and a woman says, "Sir, sir," literally tears in her eyes. "May I help you to dinner?"

• 36:42Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 36:42Andy Greenwald?

  And he's like, "Do you fucking know why the sun sets at a different hour in the evening, missy? You fucking pea-brained female."

• 36:51Chris Ryan?

  Okay, but then when the dude comes out, he's like, "All right, brother, I'm ready."

• 36:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, the guy, a man comes out and he's just like, "You do whatever you want, sir." And he's like, "Thank you, fellow man. I will have dinner now." It's nuts.

• 37:06Chris Ryan?

  We get basically an entire half-episode, I'd say two-thirds of an episode, that's pretty standard landman, including Tommy lecturing a hotel waitress about skipping breakfast and how you should skip breakfast.

• 37:17Andy Greenwald?

  And who invented, uh, breakfast as the most important meal of the day.

• 37:20Chris Ryan?

  I will say, like, every 11 Tommy speeches, I'm like, "This kinda sounds right." You know?

• 37:27Andy Greenwald?

  That's how they get you.

• 37:28Chris Ryan?

  It was, I think it was that one, and, and also, like, how do you think we, we, like, pay for all this wind farming is with oil?

• 37:36Andy Greenwald?

  By the way, you, how many, how many speeches do you think is his hit rate? Every 11?

• 37:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Andy Greenwald?

  That's basically what you said to me about the Red Scare podcast.

• 37:44Chris Ryan?

  Come on, Tommy.

• 37:45Andy Greenwald?

  You were like, "Every 10 or 11 of those ladies."

• 37:49Andy Greenwald?

  You're like, "They, they stumbled their way into some truth."

• 37:52Chris Ryan?

  Um.

• 37:55Andy Greenwald?

  Definitely don't. Go on.

• 37:58Chris Ryan?

  You don't have, you don't have editorial control over this podcast.

• 38:01Andy Greenwald?

  Clearly no, but I'm nice to the person who does.

• 38:04Chris Ryan?

  And then we get to like the sort of two thirds of the way in. And as Andy has alluded to, there is a dinner scene to end the episode. That runs for 11 and a half minutes. I did time it. At 37 minutes, Tommy comes into his home. And at 49 minutes, we find out that Tommy's mother has died as he smokes a cigarette and looks at the same sunset that his father also was looking at in Amarillo.

• 38:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. Now, do you want to just get into that dinner or do I have a couple of other points for the other stuff?

• 38:32Chris Ryan?

  I wanted to leave love.

• 38:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, let's, let's say the positive things first.

• 38:35Chris Ryan?

  I think Ali Alard is fantastic as a person and as a performer. And I think that she's probably participating in and authoring this role probably with all of her heart. And seems to be diving into it like Greg Louganis from A High Dive, you know, just like whatever it takes, the fashion, the, the outrage, the, the emotions of, of this character.

• 38:56Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 38:57Chris Ryan?

  Uh, I really like her.

• 38:58Andy Greenwald?

  Great.

• 38:59Chris Ryan?

  I don't know that she is being served well by the material.

• 39:02Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. I think that's very artfully said. I, all right, we'll get, because there were a couple of other scenes that I wanted to talk about, but we could talk about the dinner scene. Let's talk about the dinner scene because one of my favorite things about the Taylor Sheridan experience is that on some level, even he knows he doesn't need all of the scenes that he writes. Because Tommy walks into the dinner before dinner is served. And what's, what's our guy's name? The guy actor who's just way too good to be in the show? Yeah. And he's sitting at the table and he's like, hey Nate, I'm just going to paraphrase here. FYI, it's that time of the month for my crazy wife. And he's like, I definitely get that sense. Cause women are crazy.

• 39:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 39:44Andy Greenwald?

  And he's like, okay, noted. And then the scene happens and the purpose of the scene is for him to say that to her face.

• 39:52Chris Ryan?

  This is the thing that I think is so bizarre. You've often said Taylor Sheridan gets either gets no or takes no notes.

• 39:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 39:58Chris Ryan?

  This purpose of what this scene would be in any other television show is that Jacob Loughlin's character.

• 40:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 40:05Chris Ryan?

  Caleb, what's his name?

• 40:06Andy Greenwald?

  Sure. Colton, Carter. Doesn't matter.

• 40:09Chris Ryan?

  I, I do want to know. I want to know if I'm right. It's Cooper.

• 40:15Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, but we don't, we're going to cut that?

• 40:17Chris Ryan?

  You keep it. You keep it. You can also keep your Red Scare fandom. It's okay.

• 40:25Andy Greenwald?

  I'm just interested in all sides.

• 40:27Chris Ryan?

  Sure. Cooper, the whole point of the dinner is we are following Cooper from his oil strike, where he apparently has become a millionaire many times over.

• 40:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 40:37Chris Ryan?

  And is like, I gotta go talk to my dad about business. And she's like, all right, you know, see you later. And he goes to dinner.

• 40:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 40:44Chris Ryan?

  And we're like, okay, we're coming to dinner.

• 40:46Andy Greenwald?

  Time to talk, yeah.

• 40:46Chris Ryan?

  To talk about the fact that the son has become a landman.

• 40:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 40:51Chris Ryan?

  And there are landmen in this family now.

• 40:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, landmen, exactly.

• 40:55Chris Ryan?

  It never even gets to that fucking point. He never mentions what he's been doing that day or why he wanted to see his father, because we immediately go into a long diatribe of, uh, about menstruation and cachet of Pepe with white truffles.

• 41:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and.

• 41:09Chris Ryan?

  You guys, if you don't know the show, you would think Chris was having a stroke when he's talking.

• 41:14Andy Greenwald?

  It's like when I talked about Chair Company last week.

• 41:16Chris Ryan?

  Yes, yeah.

• 41:19Andy Greenwald?

  If the show was interested in any traditional definition of rising stakes or drama.

• 41:24Chris Ryan?

  But that's the thing, he's, he's, he's like.

• 41:27Andy Greenwald?

  Cooper.

• 41:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Andy Greenwald?

  If you just isolated the Cooper plot, this is fucking, like, this is a Jimmy Stewart movie from the 30s. Like, it has been absolute roaring success from the minute all of his friends died in a fiery explosion in the pilot.

• 41:44Chris Ryan?

  And then he married the guy's girlfriend or wife.

• 41:46Andy Greenwald?

  Who now just shows up and says, ah, mea mort. It is pretty interesting being rich. Like, there hasn't, there hasn't been a single obstacle.

• 41:54Chris Ryan?

  I did find that, I was mildly annoyed that a woman who has spent seemingly the last few years, because she was with this guy who was on this Wildcat team in the oil business, when Cooper's like, I'm pumping 5,200 gallons a day, oil's trading at $50, that's $39,000 a day. And she's like, is that a lot? She would know that's a lot.

• 42:15Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think she's, she might be groggy because she's been, um.

• 42:19Chris Ryan?

  Solo parenting.

• 42:20Andy Greenwald?

  Solo parenting. And he, and she's like, ah, the baby's asleep. And Cooper's like, guess what?

• 42:25Chris Ryan?

  Real loud.

• 42:26Andy Greenwald?

  Put that fucking baby away, you're rich.

• 42:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, because that baby now can go to Brown, you know?

• 42:31Andy Greenwald?

  Wow, make it personal. First of all, there is a vibrant financial aid program.

• 42:38Andy Greenwald?

  Anyway, yeah, like that would be a storyline on any other show, but it is not a storyline on this show. Similarly, one of the compelling traits of Ali Larder's character, whose name is, I want to say Caleb?

• 42:52Chris Ryan?

  Angela.

• 42:53Andy Greenwald?

  Angela, is that she attempts to culture these roughnecks. And last year, she made paella.

• 42:58Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 42:59Andy Greenwald?

  This year, she made pasta. Now, creating a perfect cacio e pepe with the emulsion of the pecorino cheese is challenging.

• 43:08Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 43:08Andy Greenwald?

  Certainly at scale.

• 43:09Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 43:09Andy Greenwald?

  For 10 people, not à la minute. I get that. I don't think Taylor Sheridan, who wrote this, understands even the con- Like, I guess that was a vehicle for her to explain something fancy, but then have bought a more expensive ingredient, in this case, a white truffle, which was available incredibly at the specialty goods store in Midland, Texas, and how she was gonna grate it over them, but not give it to her children, who she says don't have advanced palates, even though her son is a millionaire many times over and her daughter is 35.

• 43:39Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 43:40Andy Greenwald?

  So, fine. But, like, that is not a complicated dish. And so then to cut to these guys being like, "What are these long strands of wheat? Where's the sauce?" Like, it, none of it hangs together, but it is being performed with such a seriousness.

• 43:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:56Andy Greenwald?

  Also, he could be like, "You women are crazy, a couple days every month." Like, that is the purpose of the scene.

• 44:03Chris Ryan?

  That's what I'm saying, is that you can hate it, and then there's a big part of me that hates it.

• 44:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 44:08Chris Ryan?

  Hates the content.

• 44:09Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 44:09Chris Ryan?

  But admires the freedom. Do you know what I mean?

• 44:13Andy Greenwald?

  You admire the freedom.

• 44:14Chris Ryan?

  The creative freedom it has. Yeah. The fact that he's just like, "You thought this was gonna be a scene where, you know, father and son recognize that, that, you know, it's, the stakes are different."

• 44:23Andy Greenwald?

  I'll say-

• 44:23Chris Ryan?

  And instead, it's about a woman having her menstrual cycle and making pasta.

• 44:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 44:28Chris Ryan?

  For 11 minutes.

• 44:28Andy Greenwald?

  So it's like Jean Dealman, right? It's like that Belgian film that won the Sight and Sound poll. I mean, that's basically the same thing. If you if you squint.

• 44:37Chris Ryan?

  If you've zoned out.

• 44:38Andy Greenwald?

  If you just zone out like 100,000.

• 44:40Chris Ryan?

  Shots all Aggermans.

• 44:42Andy Greenwald?

  It is.

• 44:42Chris Ryan?

  Lamben, yeah.

• 44:43Andy Greenwald?

  It's all the same.

• 44:44Chris Ryan?

  I'm just saying. I'm just saying.

• 44:46Andy Greenwald?

  I liked, you asked me about the interview scene in which the daughter is like.

• 44:50Chris Ryan?

  Gets into TCU.

• 44:50Andy Greenwald?

  Daughter's like.

• 44:51Chris Ryan?

  And I was gonna text Joel Anderson, The Ringer's Joel Anderson, because I think he's a big TCU supporter.

• 44:56Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, nice.

• 44:57Chris Ryan?

  And I would imagine, I've never talked to Joel exactly about TCU, but I think he went there. How he felt about the depiction of the college in the show.

• 45:04Andy Greenwald?

  I thought it came off fairly well. I want to, speaking of Brown, shout out my old college friend Miriam Silverman for playing Greta.

• 45:11Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 45:12Andy Greenwald?

  Not Gretel.

• 45:12Chris Ryan?

  No.

• 45:12Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 45:13Chris Ryan?

  You knew that? You knew the admission officer? You didn't leave with that?

• 45:16Andy Greenwald?

  And she's chew on a Tony last year.

• 45:18Chris Ryan?

  For what?

• 45:19Andy Greenwald?

  For the sign in Sydney Burstein's window that I think Oscar Isaac was in.

• 45:22Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Shout out.

• 45:24Andy Greenwald?

  And she was way too good for that part.

• 45:27Chris Ryan?

  Do you have her number?

• 45:28Andy Greenwald?

  And she.

• 45:30Chris Ryan?

  Like, could you text her and be like, how was it?

• 45:32Andy Greenwald?

  I don't. I don't have her number now.

• 45:34Chris Ryan?

  That would be, we should start doing that. Calling people.

• 45:37Andy Greenwald?

  What's up, Miriam? She's gonna love this. I haven't spoken to her in 20 years. I didn't see your Tony award-winning performance. Heard it was great. What I really want to talk to you about is like getting into that, like, how does someone become a horned toad? Like, how do you earn it? She was so much better than that scene needed to be.

• 45:55Chris Ryan?

  She was very funny.

• 45:56Andy Greenwald?

  She did seem to understand the satire of some aspect of it. And had a good spirit about it, which I appreciate.

• 46:04Chris Ryan?

  And I thought Michelle Randolph, I mean, I know you you you often mention the fact that she's.

• 46:08Andy Greenwald?

  Too old for that part?

• 46:09Chris Ryan?

  Yes. I thought she at least was doing like some comic stuff that maybe she didn't do in the first.

• 46:14Andy Greenwald?

  And am I really a friend of women if I'm criticizing women's ages? I mean, I'm really.

• 46:19Chris Ryan?

  There you go.

• 46:20Andy Greenwald?

  Chantel Ackerman. Fair. I think ultimately my thing about the show is, one, it is fun to talk about.

• 46:28Andy Greenwald?

  But two.

• 46:29Chris Ryan?

  Think about all this stuff we just talked about, like, and just in this episode, like.

• 46:32Andy Greenwald?

  There's a lot.

• 46:32Chris Ryan?

  We'll do this for Florivas, you know? I mean, I love Florivas. We're gonna talk about it next, but.

• 46:37Andy Greenwald?

  We're gonna be in and out in like six minutes. That was pretty good.

• 46:42Chris Ryan?

  That was masterful art. Let's.

• 46:43Andy Greenwald?

  Congratulations. Yeah.

• 46:47Andy Greenwald?

  Like, I think, I find it really interesting because at a moment when everything that comes across our scenes, we do, our screens, we do have to like pause and just give it a thought, like, is this AI content? Like, is this fake? And every time I think that there, that this show could be like a little bit chatty, a little bit chat GPT, because like, the way the main character just sort of walks through an obstacle course of scenes in which he explains things.

• 47:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 47:13Andy Greenwald?

  Like, oh, he's sitting there and he tells the woman about breakfast, and then he's in a big room, and the guy's like, "Do you still have these wells?" And he's like, "Fuck you, you know I do. You know how much they're worth. They're $400,000." And she, like, and then the more, then scenes just sort of keep approaching him as if he's playing a video game of drama.

• 47:28Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 47:30Andy Greenwald?

  But the content of the scenes is so, so unhinged, that it can't be, that is, that is-

• 47:37Chris Ryan?

  It's only him.

• 47:38Andy Greenwald?

  The spark of humanity.

• 47:39Chris Ryan?

  It's only him.

• 47:40Andy Greenwald?

  That is the ghost in the machine.

• 47:41Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 47:42Andy Greenwald?

  God bless it.

• 47:43Chris Ryan?

  He's our, he's, he's the watcher on the wall, holding back-

• 47:44Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:45Chris Ryan?

  -the singularity from happening.

• 47:47Andy Greenwald?

  He's the hero we deserve.

• 47:49Chris Ryan?

  Um, let's talk a little bit about Pluribus.

• 47:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it was good. Uh, thanks for tuning in.

• 47:54Chris Ryan?

  Um, this was a more of a chamber piece episode, even though it starts with a wonderful, uh, flashback to Carol and Helen's, um, relationship when they go to Norway, I believe, and to go see the Northern Lights.

• 48:09Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and I will say, you know, because we have to use our lived experience when we, when we comment on television shows, the only criticism I've heard about this show that has rung in any way, uh, legitimate to me so far, was a friend of mine who has in, from England, from London, who has traveled in Norway, and said the phoniest moment of the show was when the Norwegian bellhop accepted the tip.

• 48:34Chris Ryan?

  Oh, because, yeah, it's not a big service charged culture there.

• 48:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 48:38Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 48:39Andy Greenwald?

  That was the sign that, that, that they didn't actually go to the ice hotel.

• 48:41Chris Ryan?

  That's just Vince Gilligan being a wonderful gentleman.

• 48:44Andy Greenwald?

  It, if you ever want to have a good conversation, bring up tipping to a room full of English people. They love it.

• 48:49Chris Ryan?

  They love talking about how they don't do it.

• 48:51Andy Greenwald?

  They love talking about how it makes no sense, and they don't do it. And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, but the key is you just don't pay people a living wage, and then it makes more sense." Then they love it.

• 49:00Chris Ryan?

  Um, what did you think of this episode?

• 49:02Andy Greenwald?

  Um, it was good?

• 49:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, it was pretty good.

• 49:04Andy Greenwald?

  What did you think of it?

• 49:05Chris Ryan?

  Um-

• 49:06Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I have more thoughts on that.

• 49:07Chris Ryan?

  You know what I did think it was that, uh-

• 49:11Chris Ryan?

  Those first two episodes are so breathtaking, both in some of the filmmaking that's going on in there, like the originality of thought, like the characterization of Carol, Racy Horn's performance. I'm so over the moon about this. I did not blink twice while watching this episode. I was captivated. But by the end, I did find myself thinking like, oh, perhaps like,

• 49:36Chris Ryan?

  this is a little bit more of a sketchbook for ideas about humanity and about life than it is always going to be a like, a little clock that Vince Gilligan has made à la Breaking Bad.

• 49:47Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right.

• 49:47Chris Ryan?

  Where it's like this propulsive, intricate plotting. I mean, like, obviously, like, there's a lot of things that happen in this episode. And I think we find out a lot about the new world Carol is living in. But it felt to me more about an episode that was about the idea of power and control in a life when you don't have any. And like how the others, which I think is how they're being casually referred to now, or maybe it's even in the Apple press stuff. You know, they have the power of collective memory and collective expertise, but Carol has like essentially

• 50:20Chris Ryan?

  her individuality and also her recklessness, you know, and her emotions and her falling into depression. And that's almost in her way, like, the only thing that she holds over these people is that if she throws a tantrum, like, thousands of people die. And if she asks for a grenade, they kind of have to, by their, by their design, give them to her.

• 50:38Andy Greenwald?

  Well, I think two things. I think that it is still,

• 50:43Andy Greenwald?

  it is still working that furrow where the power dynamic and the clock is they're trying to absorb her. So there is an antagonism baked into it, despite all of the kindness and all the gifting.

• 50:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:55Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not the first, I'm in fact, the last person to say this, but I do think the more relevant comp for Vince Gilligan's career is The X-Files. Because this is an episode where you started to feel, because everything about him is processed. The sprout's is empty, you film it empty, then you refill it and you see how that works. And that is just what you get when you watch a Vince Gilligan show. I enjoy the feeling, like the watchmaking feeling of him in real time trying to solve what was essentially the unsolvable dilemma of the X-Files, which is a lot of fun whimsical ideas, um, week to week, but a steady drumbeat of a very stakes-heavy over-narrative.

• 51:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Andy Greenwald?

  Right? A canonical, like, serialized, what is going on in the world thing. And ultimately, that undid the X-Files, I think. Like, the show, there are people who love it for the black oil and the aliens, and there are people who love it for the-

• 51:49Chris Ryan?

  Vampire of the Week.

• 51:50Andy Greenwald?

  The one-off episodes. And in its, even in its afterlife, when the show has come back, it's come back as different versions of that. There was the reboot in which it was more, in the movies in which it was like, this is a story-

• 52:00Chris Ryan?

  It's much more about the alien abduction.

• 52:01Andy Greenwald?

  And then there was the reboot where it's like, well, we'll just sort of have fun again. And I don't know if they were-

• 52:05Chris Ryan?

  And now it's getting rebooted again.

• 52:06Andy Greenwald?

  Is it?

• 52:06Chris Ryan?

  Uh, Ryan Coogler is, uh-

• 52:08Andy Greenwald?

  Interesting.

• 52:09Chris Ryan?

  -executive producing it at Disney, and Daniel Dedwiler is rumored to be in it.

• 52:14Andy Greenwald?

  What, is this, is this what you were doing while I was watching Landman?

• 52:16Chris Ryan?

  This is what I was doing while you were like, geese, what a band.

• 52:21Andy Greenwald?

  Fair enough.

• 52:21Chris Ryan?

  No, um-

• 52:22Andy Greenwald?

  So, anyway, so he's trying to solve for that in real time. And, um, this episode definitely felt like the conceit that could have been one episode of X-Files, he was splashing around in the pool a little bit longer. And I think he was enjoying that and the, the, the, how much bigger the consequences would be if you gave it more, uh, oxygen.

• 52:42Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:42Andy Greenwald?

  Um, but Breaking Bad also taught him about that, keeping that tempo. So, I liked, I, I found the opening almost intentionally like a slowdown of where we've been going.

• 52:56Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 52:56Andy Greenwald?

  And it's also worth noting that the other aspect of Vince Gilligan that we always admire is, he does seem like a very generous boss. And so this episode was written and directed by Gordon Smith, who's worked with him across all of the Albuquerque shows.

• 53:06Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:07Andy Greenwald?

  Um, not, I'm not saying that because it was some drop-off in quality, it just was a different person, uh, behind the camera. Um, I, so I, I, I found the opening Norway part like a little bit of Lost-ish backfilling.

• 53:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:20Andy Greenwald?

  Um-

• 53:21Chris Ryan?

  But nice to see the two of them together.

• 53:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and that the show can move in multiple directions. But I did find, in a way that was familiar to previous Vince Gilligan shows, the throwaway line of the grenade- Being made manifest and blowing up, but then that final conversation with the DHL guy or whatever.

• 53:39Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 53:40Andy Greenwald?

  Suddenly, the power dynamic shifted again, and you realize that she does have, not just that she can yell at them, but her obstinance is kind of like a virus to them.

• 53:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 53:51Andy Greenwald?

  And they can't solve for it, and her power is much more than it maybe ought to be.

• 53:54Chris Ryan?

  Well, she's confusing them because that sprout scene, while a lovely, kind of visually funny set piece, also kind of is exemplary of Carol's consumerism and maybe sort of her consumer therapy that she does, or shopping therapy that she does, where she wants an entirely full supermarket to shop in, even though they could bring her anything she wants.

• 54:24Andy Greenwald?

  She just wants, she wants things her way.

• 54:25Chris Ryan?

  And you juxtapose that with her alarm that the lights are all going off and the people, the others are just like, well, we don't need them, there's no crime, so we don't need, we only need certain things illuminated and we'll just save electricity, and that's inconceivable to her, you know, she's just sort of like, what do you, like this kind of collective spirit when she's got this kind of gaping wound of, not narcissism, but I guess narcissism, you know, is a fascinating juxtaposition to me.

• 54:53Andy Greenwald?

  And another, just another one of the really smart themes that the show is so capable of playing with, like individual versus, what is our individual responsibility versus collective action. I appreciate, by the way, that The Ringer has adopted this attitude by not having air conditioning anymore inside the studio.

• 55:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I was just gonna say, it's getting a little.

• 55:13Andy Greenwald?

  But I appreciate that because it's probably for the good of the environment of the greater Southland.

• 55:18Chris Ryan?

  It's probably what they were thinking.

• 55:19Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's probably what they were thinking, and I, you know, as the more politically minded.

• 55:24Chris Ryan?

  As an ally.

• 55:25Andy Greenwald?

  As an ally of women under the age of 35, apparently. Don't clip that, Kai McMullin. Kai McMullin, no, you cannot clip that.

• 55:33Andy Greenwald?

  Um, Kai McMullin, Red Scare listener, cannot clip that.

• 55:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 55:37Andy Greenwald?

  I ruined this take. I do not consent. Um, yeah, that's my opinion.

• 55:42Chris Ryan?

  Uh, let's wrap it up there.

• 55:44Andy Greenwald?

  It's getting a little dangerous in here.

• 55:46Chris Ryan?

  And now I'm like, I don't even know where this is going.

• 55:48Andy Greenwald?

  Cause it's your birthday.

• 55:49Chris Ryan?

  Pluribus still rules. Uh, thanks to Kai. Thanks to Kai. It's great to be back in Los Angeles. We'll come back on Thursday. Uh, maybe we'll publish later and we could do the fourth episode of Pluribus.

• 55:59Andy Greenwald?

  I want you to catch up down Cemetery Road. Want to hear your thoughts on that.

• 56:01Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Um, what do I want you to do? Get ready for Landman next week.

• 56:06Andy Greenwald?

  I gotta prep.

• 56:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:07Andy Greenwald?

  I gotta prep. I gotta learn a lot.

• 56:09Chris Ryan?

  Shoot straight. Do you want to do this? Is this, is this the way you want to spend the rest of your 2025, watching Landman?

• 56:15Andy Greenwald?

  When you put it like that, it sounded worse.

• 56:16Chris Ryan?

  I just love talking about it with you, but I hate dragging you along when you don't want to go, you know?

• 56:21Andy Greenwald?

  It's not that I didn't want to go. Clearly I, you know, we've been friends a long time.

• 56:25Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 56:26Andy Greenwald?

  You know, are we brothers? Am I your father? Hard to tell. Hard to tell. But, um, I think what was the worst moment of my weekend was the existential panic when I thought that you just were going to leave me there. That I thought I was alone in Midland.

• 56:42Chris Ryan?

  Oh, that I wasn't gonna watch it?

• 56:43Andy Greenwald?

  That this was a prank that you had successfully pulled.

• 56:45Chris Ryan?

  Just a bit last year? No, I'm, I'm, I'm watching this show and I want to see a father and son or a brother and brother reunite.

• 56:53Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 56:53Chris Ryan?

  And I want to see Andy Garcia and I want to see Kami Cook.

• 56:56Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm. I liked Emmy in this episode. I thought she was really good.

• 56:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Uh, that's it for us. We'll be back on Thursday. Hope everybody has a great week.

• 57:03Andy Greenwald?

  Happy birthday, Berenskis.

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