Michelle Obama Has Advice Every Woman Needs to Hear

This conversation with Michelle Obama is full of the kind of wisdom that stays with you. With Keke, she opens up about motherhood, ambition, marriage, Black womanhood, and the freedom she’s found in this chapter of her life. She also shares insight on staying grounded when the world tries to define you. From her podcast, IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson, to her book, The Look, Michelle and Keke discuss honesty, confidence, self-expression, and being seen for who you are. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  We live in a time where people feel like they have to be perfect to be respected, to be loved, to feel like they're enough. But today's guest has always reminded us that becoming isn't about arriving, it's about evolving and knowing your light can't be dimmed when you know who you are. Now, listen, she's not just our former first lady. She's someone so many of us feel like we know, someone we've grown up with, learned from, and been comforted by. A true role model, groundbreaking in every sense, but still honest, still someone who makes you feel seen, especially Black women, and really, anyone trying to find their way. Michelle Obama is in a new chapter, defining life on her own terms.

• 0:45Keke Palmer?

  From her podcast, IMO, to her latest book, The Look, she's getting real about identity, style, and what it takes to continue becoming and return to yourself. So, how does it feel to embrace this next chapter? And how has she stayed rooted in who she is through every version of her life? We have so much to get into, because, baby, this is Keke Palmer.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  A dark night, a quiet house, but inside, danger was lurking.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  Oh, not really. We have Xfinity Shield, so we're not worried. What if protecting your home and devices could be drama-free? Xfinity.

• 1:54Keke Palmer?

  Today's episode is brought to you by the new drinks at McDonald's. Six new drinks, crafted sodas with cold foam, refreshers with popping Bulba and freeze dried fruit, and trust, they are giving everything. Now, let's get in today's show.

• 2:13Keke Palmer?

  Without further ado, let's bring out Mrs. Michelle Obama.

• 2:22Keke Palmer?

  I love the cool eyes.

• 2:23Speaker 03

  Look at where we are.

• 2:24Keke Palmer?

  I know, I can't believe it.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  Your set is wonderful.

• 2:28Keke Palmer?

  Oh my gosh, thank you so much.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  We're in your world.

• 2:31Keke Palmer?

  The last time I saw you, well, I guess the last time I saw you, we were in L.A. having lunch. But before then, it was, um, with you and Craig.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  That's right, yes, yes, in D.C., in that little house.

• 2:41Keke Palmer?

  Yes. Um, so, Ms. Obama, where have you been the last few days?

• 2:45Speaker 03

  I've been here in L.A.

• 2:47Keke Palmer?

  You in L.A., okay, cool.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, we were taping I.M.O., you know.

• 2:50Keke Palmer?

  Out of L.A. now, not D.C.

• 2:52Speaker 03

  You know, it's a little bit of both.

• 2:53Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, true.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Because we have studios now, so we're here, and it's easier to get people, because everybody's coming through L.A.

• 3:00Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 3:00Speaker 03

  Um, but when I'm on the East Coast, we'll tape in D.C., so I think in June we'll tape. But I'm here, I'm here in your fair city.

• 3:08Keke Palmer?

  OMG, we're so happy to have you. I knew it was shining brighter.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  Happy to be here.

• 3:12Keke Palmer?

  Yes. Well, I always do a pre-show pull-up with my guests, so I gotta do it with you. Okay, so, I feel that I know some of this, but obviously we want the world to know. And I do have to say this, on behalf of the whole Baby This Keke Palmer community, we are really happy to have you.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  I love you.

• 3:26Keke Palmer?

  And to hear from you, I love you.

• 3:28Speaker 03

  I am proud of you, and I always love talking to you, so I am happy to be here.

• 3:33Keke Palmer?

  With a feet kicked up. Kicking up. Okay, what is your zodiac sign?

• 3:39Speaker 03

  Capricorn.

• 3:39Keke Palmer?

  I knew that, my perfect match.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  Straight up.

• 3:41Keke Palmer?

  Capricorn and Virgo.

• 3:42Speaker 03

  I think I am a, I don't know my moon and my rising and all that stuff, but I think I'm a pretty pure Capricorn.

• 3:49Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, because you know, is it the part that's so ambitious? Because you know, they say that about Capricorns, and I mean, you've accomplished so much.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  Probably the ambition, the work ethic, the perfectionism, preferably, yes.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't mind being outside, but I'm very happy to be home.

• 4:06Keke Palmer?

  That's me too.

• 4:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:07Keke Palmer?

  It's giving earth sign energy. Um, what is your love language? Have you heard of this love language?

• 4:11Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:12Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so do you know what yours is?

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Quality time. Without a doubt, with everyone, with my husband, with my kids, with my friends. Um, you know, we don't have to do anything. You don't have to get me nothing. You don't have to touch me. But I like that. I like, I like physical touch, but I'm a big hugger, but it's really quality time. You know, I try to, you know, and slow time.

• 4:35Keke Palmer?

  Too. You know what I mean? Just being able to just sit in the room with somebody. You guys don't have to say anything. You can just watch a good show.

• 4:40Speaker 03

  Well, Barack teases me with my girlfriends because some of my girlfriends, it takes us days to catch up.

• 4:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 4:48Speaker 03

  So it's like there's usually a sleepover involved and we're talking the entire time. You know, Barack might be there. We'll walk through. He's like, y'all still talking? It's like we're just on last month, you know?

• 5:00Keke Palmer?

  Yes, I live it because that's that grown life.

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 5:02Keke Palmer?

  You know, you do reach a point where it's like, girl, going all the days when we was teenagers catching up at the end of every night. Or doing in between classes.

• 5:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're catching up for months. Exactly, exactly.

• 5:12Keke Palmer?

  So wait a minute, when you said sleepover, I do quickly have to dive into that because what is, uh, Michelle Obama's sleepover looking like? Are we having jacuzzi? Are we watching TV?

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Oh, we have lots of great fun. No, no, really generally no TV because we're talking so much.

• 5:26Keke Palmer?

  I know, that's right.

• 5:27Speaker 03

  So there's a lot of talking. It depends on where we are. This is like now I'm at, which house are we?

• 5:32Keke Palmer?

  That's fabulous.

• 5:33Speaker 03

  Right, right. So.

• 5:34Keke Palmer?

  We love it, which house are we?

• 5:35Speaker 03

  If we're in a spot with a pool, we are outside.

• 5:39Keke Palmer?

  Yes, that's why we need those braids on there.

• 5:41Speaker 03

  That's what we need.

• 5:42Keke Palmer?

  Yes, braids.

• 5:43Speaker 03

  This is what I'm saying.

• 5:44Keke Palmer?

  That's the thing.

• 5:45Speaker 03

  Freedom, freedom braids.

• 5:47Keke Palmer?

  Cute at every moment, yes.

• 5:47Speaker 03

  Cute at every moment, in the water, outside of the water, you know? We're just hanging is what we're doing. Eating good food. Music is always on.

• 5:55Keke Palmer?

  Uh.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  I, I, we, in, anywhere I am, music has to be on.

• 6:00Keke Palmer?

  Now, are you a playlist creator, a curator, or do the girls do it? Does Sasha Malia hook you up?

• 6:04Speaker 03

  No, I don't mean like, no, no. I just love what I love. Um, so I have my various playlists. So I create my own, yeah.

• 6:12Keke Palmer?

  I love that. Um, who is someone you've met that made you feel starstruck?

• 6:17Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. I don't know if you've been. Oh, yeah, yeah. But they're interesting people like the Queen of England.

• 6:22Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 6:23Speaker 03

  The Pope.

• 6:24Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my God.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  Nelson Mandela.

• 6:26Keke Palmer?

  Nelson Mandela.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  I mean, that was. Uh, pretty powerful because it was towards the end of his life. We were in South Africa. I think our first major trip to South Africa and I, it was a solo trip for me.

• 6:38Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  But I had the girls, I had my mom, I had my niece and nephew because it was such an important experience.

• 6:44Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  And we were with Graca Michelle and we had, I had done this big, uh, uh, speech and with women and girls. And afterwards we talked and she said, do you wanna come by the house and see Mediba? And I was like, uh, yeah. You know, um, so it was a spur of the moment thing. We had to talk to security to make sure that we could take the drive and then we were going to their home. So I was like, me on an international trip as first lady, it, that's a lot of people coming to your house. Um, but she was like, I want you, I, I want him to see you. And we went and sat with him and it was just, it was just amazing. Not only to meet him, but to be in his home with his family.

• 7:28Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my God.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  So, yeah, yeah. So those, those are some of the start. Maya Angelou.

• 7:33Keke Palmer?

  Oh, Maya Angelou.

• 7:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:35Keke Palmer?

  I love her so much and I've gotten so much more into her story as I've gotten older and her history as an artist. And you know what I mean? Cause I feel like with Maya, similarly, uh, to James Baldwin for me, I, I really think of them sometimes only as thought leaders.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  Uh-huh, yeah.

• 7:49Keke Palmer?

  I really didn't realize how much artistic work they had put in before they even started to talk about and digest what it meant to be a performer.

• 7:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:59Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? So it's just incredible. Wow, Maya Angelou.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 8:04Keke Palmer?

  Um, what does a perfect date night with Mr. Obama look like?

• 8:08Speaker 03

  A perfect date night is dinner out.

• 8:12Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Um, usually a private room.

• 8:15Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  So that.

• 8:17Keke Palmer?

  Get it to him.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  So that we can actually just be here and no one is walking up, you know?

• 8:25Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 03

  I mean, it's, it's fine for people to walk up, but when you're on your date with your man, it's just sort of like, oh, hey, you know? So private room, um, when we actually have a lot of catching up to do, right? Cause we live together, we've been married for 30 plus years. Sometimes there's nothing new.

• 8:44Keke Palmer?

  Of course.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  You know, we're eating, it's like, what'd you do today? Nothing, you know?

• 8:47Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 8:49Keke Palmer?

  I feel you.

• 8:51Speaker 03

  So it's just sort of like, you know, and some days we're in the house together all day. And we know we're gonna have dinner together. We're like, well, don't talk to me. You know, because we gotta save it for dinner.

• 9:02Keke Palmer?

  Do you guys have a favorite place to go?

• 9:04Speaker 03

  We have a few favorites depending upon where we are. Um, but yeah, I don't wanna name them.

• 9:11Keke Palmer?

  Right, cuz then they're gonna find you there.

• 9:13Speaker 03

  There are a couple of places in DC. There's a new pla- I like to discover new places.

• 9:18Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Speaker 03

  He's sort of, he doesn't go out as much as I do. I go out with my girlfriends cuz of quality time. So I'm usually the one discovering the new stuff and I'm like, ooh, he'll like this.

• 9:29Keke Palmer?

  There's a place, my friend does this event, Kwame does this event, family reunion at Sheila Jackson's hotel that I think is in DC.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. No, that's one of our favorites.

• 9:38Keke Palmer?

  I always want to go there. I've never gone there, but I wanna go there and check it out.

• 9:41Speaker 03

  The Salamander.

• 9:42Keke Palmer?

  The Salamander, so it's really good.

• 9:44Speaker 03

  The restaurant there. What's the, Crystal, what's the restaurant? Uh, yeah, it's Kwame's restaurant. Yeah, no, we go there all the time.

• 9:52Keke Palmer?

  I love Kwame.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  That's one of our favorite date night places.

• 9:55Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Because, uh, I, I love all the food there and they have a nice private room.

• 10:00Keke Palmer?

  Yep. He has.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, Doggone.

• 10:03Keke Palmer?

  Doggone, yeah, Doggone Kwame's restaurant. Yeah, he's great. He, the Tatiana's I can't even get over in, uh, New York.

• 10:09Speaker 03

  I went there once. That's a little too busy.

• 10:11Keke Palmer?

  It's very busy. I mean, it's so poppin'.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's very poppin'.

• 10:15Keke Palmer?

  You could be in there and it's like ASAP Rocky over there, Michelle Obama over there. It's like everybody.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  It's a little too poppin' for me. I, I like a little less pop.

• 10:24Keke Palmer?

  Howling. Okay, last one. What is a song that instantly transports you to a place of joy?

• 10:32Speaker 03

  It's a good one. Um, I'll do an oldie and a newie.

• 10:35Keke Palmer?

  I love it.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  Oldie, almost anything Stevie, but truly all I do. All I do.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  That's one of the ones that that'll be a car ride song too. You know, windows down, car ride song. Um, new is, um, the one, uh, Jake, uh, Gabriel Jacoby.

• 10:58Keke Palmer?

  Gabriel Jacoby, I gotta get on to that. What vibe is it?

• 11:01Speaker 03

  It's funk. He's a, he's a young artist, a mixture of like D'Angelo.

• 11:07Keke Palmer?

  Oh.

• 11:07Speaker 03

  Um, a little, you know, Chico de Barge, like it's a groove.

• 11:12Keke Palmer?

  You pull back with the Chico.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  Um, this is the, this is the, you know, yeah, I like these young folks that, you know, have the influences of the, and old seems like it's Chico de Barge, old dad.

• 11:24Keke Palmer?

  I mean, I remember him on Brand, on Moesha, on episode of Moesha.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  Right, right, you know, but it's a good vibe. I highly recommend his whole album, but the one on there, that's another vibe, upbeat vibe.

• 11:36Keke Palmer?

  Gabriel Jacoby, shout out to him.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:38Keke Palmer?

  Coming from Chicago, I feel like I'd always say anything with the Gap Band.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  Oh, well.

• 11:42Keke Palmer?

  I love the Gap Band.

• 11:48Keke Palmer?

  That always puts me in a good mood. Don't even need the words, already know.

• 11:52Speaker 03

  I know, well, cause I barely know a word, you know, so I'm usually making some stuff up.

• 11:58Keke Palmer?

  Hilarious. Well, let's start with this chapter of your life. And by the way, should I say Michelle, should I say Mrs. Obama?

• 12:06Speaker 03

  Girl, by now.

• 12:07Keke Palmer?

  Okay, Michelle, I feel so crazy, but that's my girl.

• 12:10Speaker 03

  It's too crazy to be Mrs. Obama when I, you know, when I'm gonna tell you what to do about your life.

• 12:17Keke Palmer?

  Yes, yes.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  No, it's Michelle. And for people, I usually say whatever you're comfortable with, because some people are like, I'm never gonna say your name. And it's like, okay, that's fine, you know, but girl, call me Michelle.

• 12:30Keke Palmer?

  Thank you. So, Ms. Michelle, let's get to the present. What would you describe this chapter of your life? Or how would you describe, excuse me, this chapter of your life?

• 12:37Speaker 03

  Oh, freedom. I think that's the, the big word. Free braids, freedom, um.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  My kids are launched, um, freedom, you know, and, you know, our relationship is as close as ever, but it's a different kind of relationship. They're, they're independent adults and they have good sense. And so there's just a freedom of you guys are good. So now we're advisors. We, we're, we're catching up.

• 13:08Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  You know, I am not worried about your existentialism, you know?

• 13:12Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  And there's a freedom that, that comes with that. Um, obviously freedom, uh, uh, from a, a professional perspective.

• 13:23Keke Palmer?

  For sure.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  Um, I'm at the stage in life where I'm making, every choice that I make is mine. Um, and I can't necessarily blame anybody else or fault anybody else, you know?

• 13:37Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  And there's a freedom that comes with that. My, my yes is truly my yes. My no is my no. Um, I can't say it's because I have to do this, this or that, or because I'm in this role. Sometimes I say no because I don't want to do it and it doesn't work for me. So freedom, I think.

• 13:54Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. You talk a lot about that experience, you know, in the White House, who you had to be. I mean, you're carrying a, a heavy load of representation, leaders of the free world. That's a lot.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:02Keke Palmer?

  You know, but what did you learn about yourself during that time of who you were becoming? Like what was that transition point of who you were able to be, who you had to become to be there, and then who you get to be after?

• 14:14Speaker 03

  That's, you know, the, I think the primary thing I, I, I, I learned about myself in it and about my husband and our family is that we are pretty strong and, and capable, you know, um, and capable of operating at a high level of excellence for a very long period of time. Um, you know, and now I'm at the point where I feel like I can own that. It's like that did just happen.

• 14:49Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 03

  That was a very hard thing to do and we, we, we all pulled it off. And we're in one piece.

• 14:56Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 14:56Speaker 03

  And I, I've been talking about owning my wisdom, owning what I know, owning my accomplishments. I think we as women don't tend to claim those until much later in life. I mean, I know you are probably still sitting over there going, well, don't give me credit for that yet. And I'm, we always qualify and we preface and I know, and I don't want to speak too much because um, I'm at the stage where I know some things. I've gotten some things really, really right. Um, and I don't, I, I want to practice not qualifying that, you know? Um, and I think the eight years in the White House was another, I don't want to say feather in the cap, but it was another proving point for me.

• 15:41Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  And so I think I, I came out of that chapter in my life where it was about service. Um, it, it was about, everything that we did was about other people.

• 15:58Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  You know, um, how we showed up in the world, the sacrifices we made, the things that we didn't do. Um, the money that we didn't make, the things we turned down. I mean, in our White House, you know, the motto was if it's fun, we can't do it.

• 16:15Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 16:16Speaker 03

  Because, you know, you're not there to benefit, you know? I mean, there isn't a law that prevents it, but it's just, you know, you're not there to take advantage or advantage yourself off of the White House.

• 16:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 03

  You know, um, and so we were very mindful about making sure that how we showed up, what we said, what we did was representative and reflective of our role as. Leaders of the free world.

• 16:46Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  And thinking about the kids that were watching us. And so when you're waking up every day, realizing that every word I say not only will be dissected, but should be, and so now I have to be mindful. I can't be resentful of that fact. I have to be mindful of it and be very intentional.

• 17:07Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 17:09Speaker 03

  So it was all about, it was all about other people and, and our children that were growing up at, at the time.

• 17:15Keke Palmer?

  I mean, when you talk about it, you know, this is a service job. And when you, and you guys were already doing service before you got into this kind of, you know, this, the biggest role of service that you could possibly have. Um, but it doesn't always come with a lot of visibility. So I often talk about fame as trauma. It's very traumatic to be famous. Obviously, yes, it comes with great stuff. Cool. Awesome. That you, every, there's always a positive to something that you can find. But it's a very traumatizing experience. And then not only did you guys have fame, but you had power. Power also is very traumatizing for all of the reasons you just explained. It comes with a responsibility. I have to make sure that because of how people are perceiving me, that I'm not leveraging this. And then I gotta think about what they might not understand they're allowing me to leverage to help protect them from themselves.

• 18:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:00Keke Palmer?

  So what were the systems that you guys put in place, especially for Malia and Sasha? Because you guys are adults, right? So it's like, they're coming into the room and they, you know, they're shifting the room and they're only kids. What, what were the systems or structures that you put in place?

• 18:15Speaker 03

  It was really just trying to keep them focused on their lives. Really, it's just, it was really about not putting that pressure on them. You know, um, so for example, their job was to go to school.

• 18:30Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  Go to school and be whatever age you're in, in the grade you're in. And so rarely did they go to events. They, they couldn't never miss school or something that they had to do for school because something cool was happening at the White House. We, they only traveled with us on their breaks. Um, so summers and their spring break. When they weren't at camp, you know, so the goal was to make their lives as normal as possible. Right? You go to school, you have friends, you are gonna do the normal things, you're gonna do that sleepover? Yes, you you can go to that bar mitzvah, yes. Um, you wanna have a few friends over to the White House, which they didn't wanna do oftentimes

• 19:16Speaker 03

  because that didn't feel normal to them.

• 19:18Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  You know, but as they got used to it, it was like, okay, now they trust to have friends around. Um, so I I'd describe it as, you know, you have a a a young child now. They bumped their heads, they looked to you to figure out whether it really hurts, you know?

• 19:35Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 19:36Speaker 03

  And if you are like, oh, my God, baby, you okay? You know, then they start crying, right?

• 19:41Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 19:42Speaker 03

  And if you're like, you're fine, you're fine, you can, you you you'll be okay. That's what we did for eight years. You're fine.

• 19:50Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 19:50Speaker 03

  This isn't about you, you know?

• 19:52Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Um, and in the process, they learned a lot. They learned how to be little diplomats when we were traveling. But we also had to structure it so that the State Department didn't create a schedule that was impossible for a young kid to do. You have to set your kids up to succeed.

• 20:09Keke Palmer?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  So a lot of times we were flying abroad, we land in the country, usually get there in the morning after flying overnight. You're not getting enough rest because you're on the plane, you wake up in another time zone. You're stepping off the plane into work. It's like, then then and then then I, you know, the the whole country is there, the cameras, you know?

• 20:30Keke Palmer?

  Come on, come on.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  The guards, the the flowers being received, you know? That that's that's traumatizing.

• 20:35Keke Palmer?

  It is.

• 20:36Speaker 03

  You know, because you're barely awake. The first trip we took, we took them to Russia. And it was a couple of countries, but Russia was the first start. And we landed, this is when we learned, they maybe slept for three hours on the plane with jet lag. So imagine, and they were like ten and seven. And I had to go in and wake them up, knowing that they hadn't had sleep. You know, and you see your child looking up like, why are you in here? What do you, what, I have to get up? You know, and it's like, yeah, sweetie, we're gonna land in like an hour and you gotta get on, you gotta get dressed, you gotta get your hair done. They had, they had to be ready. And so they're up and I was like, I, I, this is crazy.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  I told them, this is ridiculous. It is ridiculous that we are up at this time. It is difficult to operate with a little sleep, but you can do it, you know? Um, you know, so I try not to penalize them.

• 21:33Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 21:34Speaker 03

  You know, and Malia, we got off, we went through the line, greeted all the people. We got in the beast, the big limousine, the kids are already in there. We get in, we're pulling off headed to the Kremlin for like a day. And Malia says, I've, I've never felt this bad in my whole life. And I said, honey, that's jet lag. I was like, that's what it is. And I had, we explained jet lag, it's like your body's asleep, but you have to be awake because it's daytime here. After that trip, we told our team, don't ever do that.

• 22:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 22:08Speaker 03

  You know, do not, you know, don't plan a trip that if we land, they, they have to, the kids have to work right away.

• 22:17Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  They need to, so from then on, it was like, if they're, if they haven't had their sleep, they'd get in a separate car and go to the hotel.

• 22:25Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 22:25Speaker 03

  You know, I mean, so it's, you know.

• 22:28Keke Palmer?

  I love hearing you say that because what can happen when you are a high achiever? Everybody becomes a part of it with you. The kids, you know, your partner, your mama, everybody ends up becoming subjected to.

• 22:40Speaker 03

  And they didn't choose any of it.

• 22:42Keke Palmer?

  Right. But also, they, this is an opportunity to learn. But then it's also an opportunity for you to learn how to use your power to create a better scenario. And I feel like I often am finding that for myself. It's so interesting when you feel like you're trying to be of service and you're trying to make a good opportunity and platform. And you're thinking so much outwardly. You forget that you do have power to say, maybe this isn't the best way to do it. Actually, people need you to say, this maybe isn't the best way to go about doing this. How did you get to the point of activating and knowing that you could activate your voice like that?

• 23:17Speaker 03

  It was just mama bear and that's, I'm a camper corn. You know.

• 23:22Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  Um, so, once I figure a thing out, then we, we are, we are all gonna change. We're all gonna, you know, um, and we were, they're a young staff, right?

• 23:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  You know, you've got a lot of really smart, young people, a lot of young people around us. They didn't have kids, they weren't parents. We were a young White House.

• 23:43Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  You know, we came in with a lot of young energy. And so I had to sort of factor that in and explain to high-driving young people in the prime of their career, you can't schedule my kids like they're adults. Um, and you have to tell the Secret Service, you know, because they had Secret Service. We had long, sometimes messy conversations about these are children, you know? So, when they were teenagers, Saturday night is Saturday night. They will not schedule their, their days like we do. So, if you're guarding them, then you're on their schedule. And it's a teenage schedule, and it's kind of chaotic, you know? But you're making them drive in your car.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  So now you have to adapt to how they live. You know, they have to be polite, but they can't be held back because somebody has to make a shift change.

• 24:38Keke Palmer?

  But that is a lot of agency. And obviously, that's, that's who we know you to be. That's what you've continued to show us, and that's what you've been able to show that role of the First Lady, of who, you know, is amazing Black woman in America to be. But, a lot of people in that position would just be like, this is the way it is.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:56Keke Palmer?

  And this is how I have to roll. Where does your agency come from?

• 25:07Keke Palmer?

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• 25:45Keke Palmer?

  Six new drinks total. Crafted sodas with cold foam and refreshers with popping boba and freeze dried fruit that go perfectly with even the chilliest of days and the hottest shenanigans. Before you pull up anywhere, I know you're stopping at McDonald's first because that's just the move now. New drinks now at McDonald's. Baby, we outside.

• 26:10Speaker 03

  Over the course of my life and career, you know, the thing I remind people is that we weren't, you know, we weren't children. We were in our 40s. We were young, White House, as I said, but, you know, I went to law school. I was, worked in a corporate firm. I ran a nonprofit organization. I worked for the city, for the mayor. I was the assistant commissioner of planning and economic development. I worked, you know, I had a long career where I had professional and personal growth happening all the time, where I went from assisting to running. I've run programs. I was the vice president of community affairs for the University of Chicago Hospital.

• 26:55Speaker 03

  You know, I, I, I ran some things.

• 26:58Keke Palmer?

  And you knew that your, that their value is in your voice.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  You learned.

• 27:01Keke Palmer?

  But I think a lot of, a lot of, you know, people coming up, they don't know the value in their voice.

• 27:06Speaker 03

  Well, you gotta practice it.

• 27:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 03

  And I had practice and I had an opportunity to make some mistakes as everyone, a young leader's will, you know? And I was, I had responsible, professional responsibilities from the, from the get go in, in my life. So coming into the White House as first lady, I did, I treated it like another job, like us, like another startup organization.

• 27:36Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  Like there wasn't a roadmap or a vision because you create that. And I had done that a million times over. So I kind of said, okay, what are the things that I need to accomplish that are in line with what the president is doing? How do I build my team around, you know?

• 27:52Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  What are my goals and my, you know, so? That was, that was the no brainer part of the job. The life part of the job was the new thing. And how my girls were gonna get through. How I was gonna mother through this, how I was gonna make sure that my, my family was good, that my mother was good, that my friendships didn't fall apart. You know, that I kept in touch with my brother and that we had regular, you know, cause if you're not regularly. Cause we lived in a bubble, right? And you have a sense of bubble life. Further up you go, the more isolated you can get at that bubble life.

• 28:29Keke Palmer?

  And the different languages you have to learn. And the insight that you have to be able to break, you have to use to break through these barriers and these rooms. It is a lot. And then you gotta, you gotta also be like, well, I'm just me and I'm just a human person. I'm just trying to stay grounded. It is a lot.

• 28:44Speaker 03

  And you have to teach people what your rules are, right? And so that takes a minute. But we did it at a high level, but there are a lot of people who could understand what that feels like, you know? I was always trying to work on gaining more and more control over my life in a position where I had to give up a lot of control. It was an interesting balance of when you're operating at that level and so many other people are depending on you. Even the Secret Service, like I, I didn't want to push against my security. Because that was their job, you know? I mean, I don't wanna put them in harms way because I don't want security.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  Because these are people with jobs and families. I'm not gonna, you know, I'm gonna help as much as I can make their job easier. I'm gonna do that. My kids aren't. So I'll, I'll take, you know, I'll take the bullet. You know, I'm gonna be really cooperative because I can be. I'm a grown up, you know? I don't need freedom every second. I, I can operate with a clear schedule. My kids are not gonna be forced to do that in their developmental years. They need to learn to live life.

• 30:01Keke Palmer?

  But that also means sometimes spending some time away, I'd imagine. I know you were. Saying you guys had a schedule of, you know, when you're traveling and when they are there and how it works with their school. And that's something that really rings true to me. Um, but it's hard as a mom, right? I did my, I try to bring my son with me everywhere. But my son really likes his school. He's only three, so it's not like a school.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  But it's gonna change even more and more.

• 30:23Keke Palmer?

  And it's hard, but I know it was best for him. So I'm trying to make sure I'm saying prayer every single night. You know what I mean? When you wake up in the morning, I'm seeing you before you go to school. But you don't need to be, again, subjected to my crazy life and my schedule.

• 30:38Speaker 03

  Because you're gonna miss him, you know? It's like the question is, what does he need? And it's gonna change. Like, you're absolutely right. I found that until third grade, fourth grade, there is a lot of flexibility.

• 30:54Speaker 03

  That, that seems to be okay. But it depends on your kid. If your kid is like, I don't wanna be sitting in the hole, in the green room, you know, with a bunch of adults when I wanna play and I wanna be outside, I wanna go to the, this party. You know, um, so it's like, yeah, you know?

• 31:14Keke Palmer?

  And then it depends on how many you have, because Eddie Murphy's kid was fine with homeschooling, but he had ten of them.

• 31:21Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? But Leo's just one, you know, Sasha and Malia are just two.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  No, no, they wanted, they wanted a regular life. Always have, always did, they always chose that. And that was fine, you know? And it, and it, and I didn't wanna make them feel guilty for wanting it. Right? But here's what, what we have. Mom, my mom, uh, having grandma. You know, and I think we were, we're both, I was blessed, you continue to be blessed. But I couldn't have done any of this without my mom, right? Because I did not worry. When she was there. And she spoiled them like grandma. You know, which helped, you know?

• 32:09Speaker 03

  But she also understood the rules, the structure. They weren't gonna mess with grandma, you know? And, and I knew that every day that I wasn't there, they were waking up with the values that she taught me. You know, so there wasn't gonna be any inconsistencies in sort of how they were developing as people.

• 32:27Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 32:28Speaker 03

  And that is a weight off as a busy mother.

• 32:31Keke Palmer?

  Yes, especially because you know, you might have nannies or somebody that's supporting and helping, but that's not the same thing as

• 32:36Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 32:37Keke Palmer?

  This is the internal structure I came from. They need to have that through.

• 32:40Speaker 03

  I wanted my girls to walk into the strange house that was their home, the White House, and not be greeted by butlers, um, and, and ushers, which is how the house works.

• 32:52Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  I wanted them to come home to grandma, you know, now, yes, they had a butler bringing a snack.

• 32:58Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  Because grandma was like, mm, you can get your snack in the kitchen, but, but she was there doing what she did, watching Judge Judy, you know, doing her crossword puzzles.

• 33:12Keke Palmer?

  My mom and my dad had me watching paternity court.

• 33:14Speaker 03

  Oh, right, right.

• 33:16Keke Palmer?

  We love that lady.

• 33:17Speaker 03

  And she loved, uh, what's that, Below Deck?

• 33:22Speaker 03

  And every court show, every, every court show there was, and they'd come out, do homework, sit with grandma a little bit, you know, and it was just that made the, the White House feel like home, whether we were there or not. And that, that, that can help. And not everybody's in that position where they have extended family or that mother figure or father figure, um, it becomes trickier.

• 33:48Keke Palmer?

  But what I'm hearing you say is even when it's daycare, you don't have a nanny, or you don't have these extra things, or maybe you don't have your mom or a parent around, it's important to say that what's best for your kid is also what's best for you. And making sure that you don't feel that, like, it's okay, you don't need to feel guilty about doing what you gotta do to make sure that

• 34:07Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 34:07Keke Palmer?

  They have the best life.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  The, I think the damage comes in is when you parent out of guilt.

• 34:13Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  It's like, no, still parent them. Don't be like, I'm, mom, sorry. It's like, no, I'm not sorry, you know? And you don't need to be sorry. You're fine. You were loved, you know, you, you know, it's, it's like, again, you bumped your head, this is an interesting circumstance. We tell them how to feel about it.

• 34:32Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Right?

• 34:33Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  We model how they should feel about it. That's why it's like if mom has to work, you know?

• 34:40Keke Palmer?

  I love what you're saying because that's a great scale as well as watching you guys also, watching your parents be leaders of the free world and deal with so much structurally, whether it's misogyny, being black, systems of power. That must have been also a lot to think about, my kids are watching me.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:00Keke Palmer?

  And I need to show them how to feel about that. Because I think about that with my mom and my dad all the time. Growing up in Illinois.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:07Keke Palmer?

  Honey, every area was segregated.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 35:10Keke Palmer?

  And my experience, my first experience with those kinds of structures, I was only five years old going to private school. And I had to learn from my father. No man that I respect more because he showed me what it feels like when I bump my head. And it's okay, I'm good. I'm good and I know how to move forward.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  And also that none of this is about you, you know? This is their issue, right? And that's where conversation, look, I don't care how busy I was or we were, growing up in our family, in our household before the White House, we talked.

• 35:45Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  You know, and that's another thing you gotta know. You can talk to kids at all ages and explain so much to them that they'll get. You can't, you know, you have to alter terminology. Don't give them too much information way before they're really asking for it. But giving your kids some context about what's going on, explaining the real for them.

• 36:07Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 36:08Speaker 03

  So that they don't feel crazy and that they don't feel alone in it. I always had that. I grew up in a household where kids were allowed to ask questions, have feelings, had to be respectful.

• 36:19Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  Get a whoopin' if you weren't, right?

• 36:22Keke Palmer?

  I hate those damn whoopins. Those are too much. Glad we retired them collectively.

• 36:29Speaker 03

  But I still like kids to know what they are.

• 36:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  Like, I just want you to know.

• 36:36Keke Palmer?

  I was trying to reach so far in my bag with this whole gentle parenting thing. Like, what can I, how can I get my son together?

• 36:41Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 36:42Keke Palmer?

  Cause these little boys will try you. So I took back to my old, my grandmama thing and I'd start doing this, like, I'ma pinch you.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  Oh, I do.

• 36:47Keke Palmer?

  The pinching is kinda cool.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  You know, what the girls always talk about is that underarm grab.

• 36:52Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  Like, right here, it's like, come here, come here. And, and it's just a little, and it's like, oh, and you see their face and it's like, don't say nothing.

• 37:02Keke Palmer?

  There has to be some physical touch.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  And then they were there to be a little bit, you know? Cause if you get in, in there early.

• 37:09Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  Then they know that it's possible. And now you can be like, now, now you have a look. You have something to reinforce the look.

• 37:17Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 37:18Speaker 03

  So, gentle, I, you know, I don't know about completely gentle.

• 37:22Keke Palmer?

  It don't work.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  But I do believe in, in fear.

• 37:26Keke Palmer?

  Yes, I mean, I, but also I think about it this with kids too, right? Where this started to hit me as a, as a parent, which is, the world's gonna show you consequence in a way that I have no control over.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 37:36Keke Palmer?

  So if I don't teach, if I don't teach you a level of understanding, then I risk your life, damn near. So it's like, you know.

• 37:43Speaker 03

  And, you know, look, I think I, I gave out one or two spankings.

• 37:47Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  And then it was psychological warfare. Because I was like, I shouldn't have to hit this child.

• 37:53Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 37:53Speaker 03

  I am smarter, you know? So, consequences are real, you know? And the kids talk about, you know, you go out with a group of kids, cause we were always with them. But you tell them, we're going in a store. If I have to call you once or twice, or a birthday party, and I call, you had Chuck E. Cheese, and you up in that ball thing, and I want, I wanna call you and you come back, so I know you're not snatched. And if I call you more than twice and you don't come back. There was only two times, and I've told other parents this, I said, in the car, if I have to tell you something more than once, we're leaving.

• 38:30Keke Palmer?

  Oh, that's the worst. Yeah, it's true, though.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  But if you say it, you gotta do it. And they still remember the time we left.

• 38:41Speaker 03

  Snatched up because it was almost a plan because I wanted them to know when I say the day will be over.

• 38:47Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, it's over.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  It's over, right? They remember that to that day and they got lectured all the way home.

• 38:53Keke Palmer?

  Oh.

• 38:54Speaker 03

  From the party before the cake. They were like, no cake. It's like, no, you don't get to stay. Um, and then they, you know, got home. Home wasn't fun.

• 39:04Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  You know, you didn't go home to have fun because you just got in trouble.

• 39:08Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. That was me with that phone. My mom and daddy took that phone. Oh, my gosh, I was on the floor rolling round. It was bad. That technology thing, that really helped and came into handy with the parents. They were like, give me your phone. No.

• 39:21Speaker 03

  It's great.

• 39:22Keke Palmer?

  Daddy, please.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  You know, you just find the thing that they want the most and take it from them.

• 39:28Keke Palmer?

  Um, you've always shaped culture. However, you guys have always been under a magnifying glass. So a lot of times I feel like you probably had to be careful of what to share, when to share, because safety is involved. But now you share so much with us. We get you on podcasts, you know, books, television, you know? How did you develop the relationship to that without the fears or the concern of safety and speaking too much?

• 39:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, it's a delicate balance. But I, I think in the early stages, before people knew us, right? I mean, as they were coming to know us.

• 40:05Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  What I learned is that if, if we don't define ourselves on our own terms, other people will define us, right? So sharing, to me, became a necessary, uh, I don't want to say defense.

• 40:21Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  It's like you, you all have to get to know me because they want to turn me into an angry black woman. Right? And so, you know.

• 40:31Keke Palmer?

  I hate that movie.

• 40:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, right. You know, it's like, I hate that movie. It's so true and it's so old and so tired, you know?

• 40:39Keke Palmer?

  Seriously.

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Um, but there are, there were assumptions, biases, prejudices that, that were slung our way that I think required us to be known fairly quickly. Um, so, and I, you know, look, we like who we are. I mean, there's not much to, not much to hide.

• 41:01Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 41:01Speaker 03

  You know, but I. I also believe that in these roles, it was so important for kids, our people, folks who had never been in these positions before, to see us in our full selves.

• 41:15Keke Palmer?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:16Speaker 03

  You know, because it's very easy, when you are up in, in, in that territory, for a child to look and go, well, I could never do that. I could never be that. There must be something different or special about them.

• 41:29Keke Palmer?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:29Speaker 03

  So a lot of our sharing was like, wait, wait, wait. Let me tell you how I grew up, you know?

• 41:35Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 41:35Speaker 03

  So that you see, you don't just see Michelle and Barack Obama, but you see little Michelle and little Barack, and all the challenges and the mistakes that we made and the fears that we had. Because I think that helps us connect with people.

• 41:49Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  So I don't think we were ever really afraid of sharing, you know?

• 41:53Keke Palmer?

  Mm hmm.

• 41:54Speaker 03

  Because I think that that's how you relate to people. You know, my first campaign stops were all in Iowa. And just telling people, let me explain who we are as people.

• 42:05Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Like, I'm not going to talk to you about policy, because right now, you don't even know me.

• 42:09Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  So let me tell you about how we live, how we grew up, the food we ate, the, the values that we were taught by. Let me tell you about my father, right? Just like I felt the way you, you felt about your father about mine. Working class guy, but smart and sharp and honest and kind.

• 42:29Keke Palmer?

  Ah!

• 42:30Speaker 03

  And wise and patient in ways.

• 42:33Keke Palmer?

  Right, yes.

• 42:34Speaker 03

  Like, most people, a lot of people's fathers.

• 42:37Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 03

  You know, but that's the way we connect to other people. We don't connect like, here's my resume. I went to Princeton. I went to Harvard. That, to me, separates us. Because those are rare experiences that actually don't say anything about you, other than you got into that school.

• 42:53Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  But it doesn't say what kind of person you are.

• 42:56Keke Palmer?

  And then it also allows people to be becoming beside you, which I think, again, that type of becoming is so incredible, because it's really true. And that's where we are now, in our relationship to media, to personalities, to identity in general, is proximity.

• 43:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:12Keke Palmer?

  Who are you becoming? And how do I become alongside you? That is the point of connection.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  And I think sharing parts of ourselves, to me, is

• 43:24Speaker 03

  It's, it's the, it's the gift that I can give, you know? It's sort of mentoring en masse in a way, right? Because how do, how do I pick a mentee?

• 43:35Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  You know?

• 43:36Keke Palmer?

  The girls want to know.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  But I'm saying, I can't have just one mentee. I'm trying to reach many.

• 43:44Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 43:45Speaker 03

  Right? So that means I have to put some stuff out there in a bigger, broader way. That's, that's how I thought about writing my memoir.

• 43:53Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 43:54Speaker 03

  It's like, let me really tell you who I am. Let me let you in, you know? Not, and I don't want to talk just about the White House years because that's just the dot on the eye of my life. It is one little, it's one eight-year period.

• 44:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 44:08Speaker 03

  The White House didn't make me, it didn't break me. But this whole arc of a life that started on 7436 South Euclid? Oh, I, you know, the, the core of who I am and who we all are starts at those kitchen tables and the roots and the stories and the neighborhood and the first fight you had and that teacher that didn't believe in you and, you know, that whooping you got and how it made you feel. It's like, those are the things that make people see themselves in you, right? And then go, ah, the other lessons now make sense.

• 44:46Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  You know? I can connect to the other lessons. And so the podcast for me is just another platform for that where people, if they choose to, because you don't have to, you don't have to tune in. We hope you do, but, you know, it's about conversation, connection, a little advice. The stories that we tell just by somebody listening can go, oh, that happened to me.

• 45:11Keke Palmer?

  I would love to know your relationship to high achieving because I think the generation is struggling so much with hyper-functioning. And many of us do it really, really well. You know, this idea that performance is this adaptive intelligence that can outrun you. When do you know and how did you define?

• 45:31Speaker 03

  That's a good question.

• 45:32Keke Palmer?

  What's you and what is your survival skills?

• 45:43Keke Palmer?

  There is a very specific kind of joy that happens when you get three generations of your family all under one roof. And if you know, you know. I'm talking about mom teaching the grandkids something in the backyard, daddy on the grill doing what he does best, the cousins running around being feral in the best way possible. And let me tell you, that kind of moment, you're not really getting that in a hotel. In a hotel, everybody ends up in their own room, doors closed, doing their own thing. Starts to feel more like a logistics exercise than a family memory. But when I book a stay on Airbnb, like when I went to Big Bear, ugh, it's a whole different vibe. You get a real home in a real neighborhood with enough space so nobody's on top of each other, but still close enough that everybody's part of the same story.

• 46:28Keke Palmer?

  And that's what makes it special. Spring is the perfect time to do it before summer gets hectic and everybody's schedules take over. Find a home on Airbnb and get your whole family under one roof. Trust me, that's where the magic is. There's one phrase that sums up my conversation with Michelle Obama. Endlessly inspiring and so real. I truly don't know how she manages to be so many things to so many people all at once. But what I do know is that she does it with style, grace, and so much honesty. Y'all are getting to meet a whole new side of Michelle. How she's choosing herself, embracing joy, and defining life on her own terms.

• 47:11Keke Palmer?

  And trust me, this season only gets better from here, okay? So make sure you're subscribed to Spotify Premium so you can listen to every episode with no ad breaks. Get into it, baby.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  I think a lot of that comes with growth in age and wisdom. I mean, you know, like some lessons, you know, I could sit here and tell you a thing, but you sort of have to go through it. And for me, I just sort of went through it. I was a high-achieving box checker my entire life there still. I'm trained in that. Like, I know, it's like, I'm gonna get it done, I'm gonna be there early, I'm gonna over Prepare, I'm gonna prepare, send me more. And why isn't that here? And I gotta get this right in my note cards. They have to be right. I know you were readjusting note cards. And we were in the back going, yeah, we know. My team was like, oh, Kiki like you.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  You know, up until the bitter end is where is that note card on the thing? It had the three, three points that I wanted to have right here. That's baked in.

• 48:16Keke Palmer?

  We did it last night.

• 48:19Speaker 03

  And preparing for these things. It's like, I wanna know who I'm sitting down with. I don't wanna miss a thing. It's like, I don't, sorry, that's you. You know, and so you learn to kinda come to grips with that kind of, you know, give that part of yourself a nice, warm hug. You know, take care of that part of yourself because she's a little crazy.

• 48:43Speaker 03

  You know, and then you start, and then you have to laugh at that part of yourself to not take it so seriously. Because not everybody has that muscle. You know, and, and not be too judgy about the people that don't have it, you know? Because it is kind of a thing you always had. I was always that kid. I think that was a temperament. So I think some of it is like temperamentally, maybe because I'm a Capricorn. I don't know what it is, but I don't, I don't know how much I have to do with it. You know, so I try to be in it, but not of it completely. Now I'm trying to mindfully let go of some of that.

• 49:27Speaker 03

  Too, just for balance. You know, because it's exhausting. And it's not always necessary or right, you know?

• 49:36Keke Palmer?

  And that's our battle. And I think that that's in a world where people are, A, dealing with hyper functioning. The concept of being a high achiever and succeeding at this level is the only thing deemed as good. But it comes with its challenges and it's not the only way to find value. Everybody thinks they want to be the president or the CEO or the entrepreneur. But you might not have the temperament. What do we say to those of us? And how do we also encourage that other side that exists here? Everybody's not a high achiever, you don't need to be. So then, how do you find then value?

• 50:10Speaker 03

  Oh, it's everywhere else.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  You know, I mean, the thing I learned is like, my happiness is, is not tied to what I've achieved. It's like, okay, that, that's nice, you know, and whatever it is in me goes, okay. But, look, and I have met tons of overachievers. They are no happier. Many are unhappy people, right?

• 50:38Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 50:38Speaker 03

  And that's really one of the messages, right? It's like, you want to show up well in this world, but if you don't have balance in your life, you know, I don't care, you, you know, now you, now you're just playing out some habit. It's like, you know, not just like smoking, but if you don't have control over it, you know, it can be detrimental. Um, so I've learned over time to be really thoughtful about what truly makes me happy. I started doing that even when I went to law school, worked at a law firm.

• 51:13Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  Looked up and I was like, I don't even like the law. How did, what?

• 51:17Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, how'd I get here?

• 51:18Speaker 03

  I don't even, I hated the prac, the corporate practice of law. It was boring. It didn't involve people. To me, it was temperamentally, it was just too staid.

• 51:29Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  That was the first time I realized my perfectionism got me, I spent money on a degree and I'm glad I got it.

• 51:38Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  But I, it had nothing to do with what I wanted to be and because I could do it, I did it.

• 51:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:45Speaker 03

  And then I had to start thinking differently, not what I could do because my hyper perfectionism, you put me in the, you know, the desert.

• 51:54Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 51:55Speaker 03

  And I'll figure out how to make it work, right? Now I had to figure out, what do I, what do I care about? What do I want? Who do I want to be? And I think that helped me early on realizing that I needed to be very clear about what I cared about. And I had to figure that out. You know, um, and that's why public service means so much to me. I mean, I, I left the law, started working in. Community service and working in city government. And it just, it, it just spoke to me, like.

• 52:29Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 52:30Speaker 03

  Being able to do stuff where I could see an impact on other people.

• 52:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 52:34Speaker 03

  Mattered way more to me and gave me way more joy. My connection to people is so much more important than me than money. Achieve raw just achievement, you know. Um, so it, it took me a second.

• 52:50Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 03

  You know, and you kind of have to slow down and get off of your path. In order to give yourself a minute to really reflect on what that is for you. Cause what it is for me is different.

• 53:02Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? Or you feel called to be, to be, to be a steward.

• 53:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, well.

• 53:06Keke Palmer?

  To be a voice in that.

• 53:06Speaker 03

  To hear a call, you gotta be quiet, right? Um, and overachievers, we're so busy sometimes that the noise drowns out the call, you know?

• 53:17Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I'm in that phase. I'm in that phase, especially having done something for so many years. You know what I mean? I think, you know, my version of that, of, of law would be entertainment. I've been performing for so long and I've always loved it. I'm sure there are things you always love about law.

• 53:30Speaker 03

  No, there was nothing, but yeah, but I understand.

• 53:34Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean?

• 53:36Keke Palmer?

  Where there's, you know, there's always that thing that I love, however. You know, for me, it's like, I'm already at the 20 year plus mark. For me, it's a midlife crisis moment. Where it's like, we've done this.

• 53:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:47Keke Palmer?

  You know, I've gone around the sun twice. The, the world has loved me and hated me multiple times. I know what it was like to be true Jackson VP. I know what it's like to be maybe, this is Keke Palmer.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:57Keke Palmer?

  And so it becomes a question of what is that true call? What were the years that I put in? What was the skill that was actually being fine tuned in this moment? That represents where I'm going next.

• 54:09Speaker 03

  So how are you thinking about it now?

• 54:11Keke Palmer?

  I'm thinking about it. Well, I relate so much to you. Um, in terms of community, you know, I feel that stewardship, um, the next generation. Creating infrastructure.

• 54:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:23Keke Palmer?

  Um, and the basis of a community is what we don't have enough of. Not saying that people are doing it.

• 54:30Speaker 03

  Especially in the business.

• 54:30Keke Palmer?

  Especially in the business.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:33Keke Palmer?

  So I think I find myself feeling like, um, and I've always felt like it can't be just for me.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:39Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? And I feel that now I'm understanding that as long as I can take what I went through and create a system of structure for others to have a blueprint to work from.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:50Keke Palmer?

  Then that means it was worth it.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  Mm.

• 54:53Keke Palmer?

  That to me feels recursive.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:55Keke Palmer?

  That to me feels like it compounds.

• 54:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:57Keke Palmer?

  And but I gotta be quiet.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:59Keke Palmer?

  Like you said, to know what those exact steps are.

• 55:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:02Keke Palmer?

  And the obligations that one has in the midst of all of that, it becomes, you know, it becomes difficult.

• 55:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:09Keke Palmer?

  So I'm in a, I'm in a very crucial time, so I needed to stalk with you today.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:14Keke Palmer?

  You know, to understand how to navigate my turning point.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  We've talked about this community piece and the organizing and the more young people in the business that I meet, the more that I realize that you got, all of you guys are spinning and moving really, really fast in your isolated bubbles. Um, and you didn't have the time, especially young actors, to learn the importance and value of networking. And networking is, seems a little bit too professional, but creating relationships with each other, you know, real, just straight up, not we're gonna do a deal or a project together, but let's get some coffee and come over to my house and let's, you know, let's get to know one another, right?

• 56:02Speaker 03

  Not for the purposes of a project, but a purpose of your peace of mind and having community and other people that you can, you can just go, whoo, this happened today. And sometimes there's no answer, but it's sharing it with somebody who really, really knows. Um, and it takes a minute to, to do that. And I see how difficult it is.

• 56:24Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 56:24Speaker 03

  Because, you know, I, I know a little bit about what you doing now. You got this project and blank movie, and I just saw you on 12 other things.

• 56:32Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 56:33Speaker 03

  It's like Kiki again?

• 56:35Keke Palmer?

  Literally.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  You know?

• 56:36Keke Palmer?

  Giving Kiki again?

• 56:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:38Keke Palmer?

  I love Kiki again.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  That movie again, I love that movie, you know? But it's like, and your mother, you know?

• 56:45Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:46Speaker 03

  Um, and you're trying to, you know, and, and, and, um, so.

• 56:51Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  And like we're talking, there are chapters for that too.

• 56:55Keke Palmer?

  Sure.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  So you also have to. Forgive yourself, you know, I mean, maybe this isn't the quiet time for you, you'll, you'll know it. Because in this business, you also gotta get while you can. You know, everybody's profession is different, you know, we're, I just hope people listening is like, we're talking about where we are, what we did. It's, it's, it's the process of figuring that out for yourself in your profession. But talking to you, it's like, yeah, you're, you're at an interesting, wonderful peak in life. And even though you feel like, you know, you're, you're having a midlife crisis, you are a baby.

• 57:36Keke Palmer?

  Goo goo gaga.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  Yes, and enjoy it, you know, keep the pacifier in your mouth and enjoy it and understand that you, you can be a bunch of different things. You still have, you got five more careers to go, right? So that's the overachiever part, because then you'll turn that into, like, I gotta figure this out right now.

• 57:58Keke Palmer?

  I was just doing that last night.

• 58:00Speaker 03

  It's like.

• 58:00Keke Palmer?

  Girl, I came from a conference, I was like, now my next speech.

• 58:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 58:05Keke Palmer?

  It's crazy how easy she up, you know, but I, I love just, I love everything you're saying and the way that you reinforced the conversation around grace and, and, and the grace that I should have with myself. And, um, you know, I was talking to my parents last night too and saying that so much of what I'm spinning about could also be, doesn't have to always be compressed into this, but can be simply supported by, I'm grateful for what I've done today.

• 58:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:32Keke Palmer?

  Forget that.

• 58:32Speaker 03

  That's good, that's good practice.

• 58:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 58:35Speaker 03

  That's a good thing to start practicing, because there's a lot of gratitude for you to have in this moment. And you're somebody's mother. That's, that's a huge emotional suck in the best possible way, really. But tha- that's why I want to talk about, like, let's talk about the,

• 58:54Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  the drain of that other living human being that you care the most about.

• 59:00Keke Palmer?

  Girl, I seen somebody trying to talk about, uh, by the way, Rihanna looked amazing at the Met Gala, but I seen somebody trying to talk about her, I'm like, she got three kids.

• 59:07Speaker 03

  She got three kids.

• 59:08Keke Palmer?

  The hell you mean?

• 59:09Speaker 03

  Showing up.

• 59:09Keke Palmer?

  I'm glad she got outside today.

• 59:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, really.

• 59:13Keke Palmer?

  That's three kids, you know, you got these kids. They're great, but it's, it is real, there's no, there's no moment where you're not resting. There's no moment where you're not worrying or thinking and making sure they're okay, that do they feel loved?

• 59:26Speaker 03

  And it's gonna get, now, as they grow, you know, how are they learning? What's school like? Who, what are they interested in? You know, who are they becoming? How I'm, I'm helping them, you know, and then they, you know, maybe they, maybe a boy or girl shows up, you know? And now there's that stage of it, somebody hurt their feelings.

• 59:44Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 59:45Speaker 03

  You know, it's just, this is why the freedom is that, like, I'm on the other end of that. And they're 28 and 20, how, 20, I have to do the math.

• 59:56Keke Palmer?

  I know, it's always like that, 20.

• 59:58Speaker 03

  They're years apart, 20, 25.

• 1:00:00Keke Palmer?

  25 and 28.

• 1:00:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, 25 and 28.

• 1:00:02Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 1:00:03Speaker 03

  There, there is just a different freedom you will feel. You're not close to that. It'll, it'll happen, it's gonna happen fast.

• 1:00:12Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:00:12Speaker 03

  But, you know, you also have to understand that that is sitting there. And you were, you're a single parent too.

• 1:00:19Keke Palmer?

  Yep.

• 1:00:19Speaker 03

  For now, right?

• 1:00:21Keke Palmer?

  Yes, yes, yeah, my son's dad's in the military. You know, we're not together, but it's still, it's even more.

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Keke Palmer?

  Distance when you in Germany and he, you know.

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:00:28Keke Palmer?

  I'm all he has presently.

• 1:00:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. So, be mindful of that as you start saving the world, right? You, you gotta take care of him first. And so, the, the time for you to maybe actualize some of those other things may not be in this season. And that's something that I learned, you know? When I was a parent and Barack was running for, he was a state senator, that meant he was in Springfield, Illinois, all the time, and then he was a US senator, that meant he was in DC. Uh, and we had little kids and I wasn't driving as hard in my career.

• 1:01:08Speaker 03

  I didn't stop it, right?

• 1:01:10Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  And I almost did. I almost quit and said, trying to juggle all this and the worry about my kids, I will just call it a day. But my mom retired and she stepped in. I got another high-profile job where I negotiated a different level of flexibility.

• 1:01:29Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  So I didn't stop. And I tell a lot of young women, young parents, is that with parenting, you may have to take your foot off the gas, but you don't have to break. You know? Just slow down and don't be frustrated with yourself because you're slowing down a little bit, right? You don't have to get out the car and lock it up and put it in the garage.

• 1:01:56Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  But it's okay to slow down a little bit. And I found that I did that, had to do it for my girls. And I'm still here with all these accomplishments and still more to come. That's why, like, if we're blessed, life is long, you know? So just remember, there are these chapters. Really, these chapters, you don't get it, this is, you don't get it all at once. You don't get to be a great mother, have eight jobs, and then add two more.

• 1:02:26Keke Palmer?

  I love when you've spoken about this because you've talked about that. That whole, you can have it all, that's a lie. And it's not always enough to lean in because that [BLEEP] doesn't work all the time. And, you know, on the Becoming book tour. I want to talk about that because that's also what I'm waking up to, you know? And I think most 30-somethings. You know, we felt that it's sobering to realize that truth.

• 1:02:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Keke Palmer?

  Because you, that, what kind of keeps you going for a long time is this utopian belief, you know, like you Dorothy in A Wizard of Oz. You know what I mean? That things are going to, you know, if I'm just good enough, if I'm just kind enough, if I'm just, you know, the math doesn't actually math, though.

• 1:03:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Keke Palmer?

  The equation is always changing, you know what I mean? And so are the variables.

• 1:03:12Speaker 03

  For women, for minorities, for, you know, you know, not to, you know, diss on white men. You know, you guys are are good, but I I think there are barriers and roadblocks for the others.

• 1:03:27Keke Palmer?

  Sure.

• 1:03:27Speaker 03

  That, you know, the the world isn't fully set up for us.

• 1:03:32Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:03:32Speaker 03

  For the math to math. Um, and that's just, that's not in our heads, you know, that's not, you know, there's no affirmative, you know, there's no, no need for affirmative action. Yeah, no, there is. There's a lot. There's a lot of, you know, disadvantage and edge and

• 1:03:50Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  You know, that that makes it even harder.

• 1:03:53Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, even if you just take the emotion out of it, and I talk about shapes, it was built for rectangles. I'm a circle. That's it.

• 1:04:00Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:04:00Keke Palmer?

  We can remove color, we can remove sex, we can move

• 1:04:02Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:04:03Keke Palmer?

  All of it. This is built for rectangle.

• 1:04:06Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:04:06Keke Palmer?

  I'm a circle.

• 1:04:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:08Keke Palmer?

  Trying to push through it.

• 1:04:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Keke Palmer?

  And I actually, I'm fitting.

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:04:12Keke Palmer?

  This hurts, though.

• 1:04:13Speaker 03

  Because you're an overachiever, you know, because you're a perfectionist and because you can, you know? That's the other downside of being a overachieving perfectionist. You wind up doing stuff that a lot of people can't and shouldn't be trying to do.

• 1:04:30Keke Palmer?

  Ooh.

• 1:04:30Speaker 03

  But you can do it.

• 1:04:33Keke Palmer?

  And then you realize there's also a whole, not only do you realize you're being the example, you're being the model minority or the model exception in that regard. You're you're you're now the example that, see, roses can grow from concrete, which actually I don't want to affirm that because everybody deserves grass.

• 1:04:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:04:49Keke Palmer?

  And then also, on the other side of it, you realize that that that still is just one shallow

• 1:04:55Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:56Keke Palmer?

  version of it.

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Keke Palmer?

  That there's actually a whole other side of it that you then meet. How do you still find the courage and the faith in humanity? I mean, to be to be to to to still have that desire when you feel like there's always one, you know, I mean, it could be discouraging.

• 1:05:13Speaker 03

  Oh, you know, cuz of Maya and Rosa and Nelson, you know?

• 1:05:22Speaker 03

  I mean, shoot, we're still sitting really pretty, you know, in the context of history, you know, which is why we need to know our history, and our, meaning the country's history, the world's history. That's right. You know, that context helps because we, we are the products of the advantages and the struggle and the hard work. You and I, sitting here. That's right. You know, where we've been, where we still can go. Um, yeah, it's hard, and it's harder for us. Everything hasn't been fixed. Yeah. But we're, we are moving towards better. And there are some bumps and roadblocks, you know? The ascent is never a straight shot.

• 1:06:06Speaker 03

  It goes up and down as long as the projection is heading upward. And we're living proof that it is. And so, we have to be mindful of that, even as we work to improve it or not accept what is here. But, you know, shoot, humanity did this. You know, humanity got us here, all of us together, you know? White, black, the circles, the triangles, and the rectangles all worked on this, you know? Some of the rectangles were like, man, this ain't right for the circles. Yeah. And I'm willing to, you know, sacrifice a little bit and change a little bit and fight for the circle. And the triangles are like, yeah, we're in it too, you know?

• 1:06:51Speaker 03

  That is, that is our humanity, that is happening. Um, and we have to look at each other and give one another the benefit of the doubt that we're circles and rectangles, but you're looking out for me. You know, you might not know how to look out for me every time, and maybe sometimes your interests might not completely align with mine, because you still have your interests as a rectangle. Rectangles are still trying to be rectangles.

• 1:07:18Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  You know, so, you know, it's like, yeah, you know.

• 1:07:22Keke Palmer?

  We all gotta go in the box, though.

• 1:07:23Speaker 03

  We gotta, we all have to go in the box.

• 1:07:25Keke Palmer?

  You know?

• 1:07:26Speaker 03

  You know, so how do we do it? And we're working on it.

• 1:07:29Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  You know, humanity is, I, I know you see it every day.

• 1:07:33Keke Palmer?

  I do, and I appreciate this, again, this is what you were talking about before, with the whole community connection and the conversations.

• 1:07:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:40Keke Palmer?

  Because it is for you.

• 1:07:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:41Keke Palmer?

  Because we're having the same thing, and from your vantage point, from my vantage point, but we're meeting at the same medium of these emotions, of these structural, what we consider limitations, or just uphill battles as in the human condition. And it just affirms, you're not crazy, it is tough, but you can do it. We can do it.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  And it is, and it is hard, and more people, we, there need to be more opportunities for more people to make it.

• 1:08:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:09Speaker 03

  And right now, we're in a, we're, we're in a situation where we've made some choices, all of us, where we're now at a point where fewer people are getting a chance to make it. And I'm talking about circles, squares, and triangles.

• 1:08:22Keke Palmer?

  Ah.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  You know, um, and I think that's the, the problem, is that a rectangle thinks, you know, well, if the decision was made for me, it's really gonna help me. And in these times, it's like, nah, you getting screwed too, rectangle.

• 1:08:37Keke Palmer?

  And as James Baldwin always said, you always were.

• 1:08:40Speaker 03

  Yes, always were.

• 1:08:41Keke Palmer?

  It's becoming clear now, because the places where.

• 1:08:43Speaker 03

  Well, and hopefully, it's becoming clear now.

• 1:08:45Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  You know, I don't, I don't wish, you know, hard times on folks, but I do wish clarity.

• 1:08:52Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:52Speaker 03

  You know, and, and context and understanding, so that we can get to the business of really continuing to improve things for all of humanity. I'm talking about everyone.

• 1:09:02Keke Palmer?

  Well, because I think people were able to keep that branding alive when we didn't have social media, and you couldn't see that everybody wasn't living the same.

• 1:09:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Keke Palmer?

  Despite what you were told they were supposed to have.

• 1:09:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13Keke Palmer?

  We can see the different parts of the America where, wait a minute, this is like a Harmony Corine film.

• 1:09:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:20Keke Palmer?

  What's going on?

• 1:09:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? There's a lot more, more precious and a lot more gummo, or whatever you call it. Happening than you would expect it to be. Everybody ain't full house or step by step.

• 1:09:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Keke Palmer?

  So, you know, you know, that's what he made it seem when we were kids.

• 1:09:35Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:09:36Keke Palmer?

  But you know it's not true. And so, yeah, hopefully that does wake everybody up to the realities.

• 1:09:40Speaker 03

  And you, hopefully you, we can have some compassion for people when we talk about racism when we do.

• 1:09:47Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:48Speaker 03

  We're ignoring so many white folks, so many people living in rural America. So many people who are struggling even worse than many of us. And it's sort of like, well, you can't just label everybody in a certain way. People's beliefs, anger.

• 1:10:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 03

  Grief, resentment comes oftentimes from a place of real unfairness and injustice.

• 1:10:15Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:10:15Speaker 03

  Inequality. And so, we all have to give one another grace and always wonder, why are you so mad?

• 1:10:23Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 1:10:24Speaker 03

  You know, and not, don't, it's, I know it's not about me. So let me help, let me try to work to understand why you're, what's going on in your life.

• 1:10:34Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:10:35Speaker 03

  You know, and look with that level eye of compassion. It's like, you're, you are so afraid of something.

• 1:10:42Keke Palmer?

  It takes a lot of compassion and it takes a lot of courage to hold space for yourself and for somebody else. Especially somebody that maybe is not holding space for you. But it is required.

• 1:10:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:10:54Keke Palmer?

  It is required if we want to move to the next level and actually solve the issue or be a part of solving the issues. And so, I find myself trying to maintain the practices and the skill set to be able to handle that.

• 1:11:06Speaker 03

  But this isn't an assignment for you. Let's be clear, Kiki.

• 1:11:10Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, no, it's right. I'm, I'm coming back to it. I'm feeling this.

• 1:11:13Speaker 03

  It's like, okay, now, we not gonna walk away from this conversation with you staying up at night.

• 1:11:17Keke Palmer?

  I'm ready.

• 1:11:18Speaker 03

  Okay, now I'm gonna fix that.

• 1:11:22Speaker 03

  Let's be very clear. That's why we all have to do the work. So that Kiki isn't trying to do everything by herself.

• 1:11:30Keke Palmer?

  It's so real. It is so real. I know my time is running out. I'm really, really sad about this.

• 1:11:35Speaker 03

  I am sad too.

• 1:11:37Keke Palmer?

  I do want to show love to my pictures real quick.

• 1:11:39Speaker 03

  What you got?

• 1:11:40Keke Palmer?

  I got pictures and I got a game.

• 1:11:41Speaker 03

  The time has happened already.

• 1:11:43Keke Palmer?

  I know, girl. We could talk. Let's talk about this photo of you in Princeton. That looks like anybody today in 2026, girl. This is timeless.

• 1:11:50Speaker 03

  Those little cheeks.

• 1:11:52Keke Palmer?

  It's like, how did you know? It's almost like you knew you were gonna be the first lady already.

• 1:11:56Speaker 03

  I don't think so.

• 1:11:57Keke Palmer?

  Cause look at you. You look so perfect.

• 1:11:59Speaker 03

  I don't know. That happened to be a good day, you know? The brands, yeah, little Levi, little, you know, that. My college days, this was, must have been, I graduated in 85. I was probably 86. That was probably 83, 84. It was the preppy stage, right? The Lacoste bag and the, you know, and it's just, you know, I was broke. So you have just enough money to get one piece that's, that, that sets it over the top, you know?

• 1:12:30Keke Palmer?

  It's so funny, my girl, one of our producers, Alanike, has a photo that almost looks identical to that.

• 1:12:35Speaker 03

  We were all looking like that.

• 1:12:36Keke Palmer?

  And it's literally 2026. She's literally Gen Z.

• 1:12:39Speaker 03

  Jeans and the, and the fashions returned. They come back.

• 1:12:43Keke Palmer?

  Speaking of fashions.

• 1:12:44Speaker 03

  Oh, there's.

• 1:12:45Keke Palmer?

  You've done some incredible fashion. This Balenciaga look. One of my favorites right here is you wearing Sergio Hudson. And it actually worked with the mask. That's hard to pull off.

• 1:12:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:58Keke Palmer?

  It's hard to pull off. Do you feel like fashion was a form of a strength or a source of strength for you when you were in the White House?

• 1:13:06Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely. I mean, fashion was another political tool, I think. And for us, that was part of what, everything had to have meaning and purpose, right? Because it's like, we also felt like eight years. So everything we do, we gotta get it in. You know, we gotta get in. We gotta say, be saying something and fashion was a part of that. You know, who I wore, the designers I wore, the fact that I would wear. Target as well as, you know.

• 1:13:33Keke Palmer?

  J Crew, we loved doing J Crew as well.

• 1:13:35Speaker 03

  You know, because that's how we all dress. You know, women, it's like fashion isn't just about Balenciaga and the, that crazy expensive boot, you know.

• 1:13:44Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:13:45Speaker 03

  It's like you can turn a dress from Target into something, put a belt on it. This is what, this is what real fashion is when you don't, you know, when you don't have resources. You know, and you can still take a thing, which is how all these, all our mothers and aunties and the women at church. Making their clothes and putting on a hat.

• 1:14:04Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:14:05Speaker 03

  Looking at a magazine and getting a little inspiration, but turning it into their own. And, you know, we wanted to make that statement through the clothes that I wore.

• 1:14:14Keke Palmer?

  The look, Michelle Obama. I also want to point out this beautiful shirt that you wore in South Africa. I think you were there.

• 1:14:21Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh.

• 1:14:22Keke Palmer?

  With your mother here on the blouse.

• 1:14:25Speaker 03

  I'd have to be, get a reminder whether the designer was South, was South African or from the continent, right?

• 1:14:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yes, yes.

• 1:14:32Speaker 03

  Yes, my stylist, Meredith Coop, you know, we were in South Africa. So usually I didn't wear foreign designers as first lady because I was always like, I need to rep American designers.

• 1:14:45Keke Palmer?

  Understood.

• 1:14:45Speaker 03

  Of all backgrounds. So this trip, we were like, yeah, let's find the hot new African designers. And that was one where he, you know, worked on prints and could take a picture. And Meredith kind of surprised me with this print, you know, taking a picture of my mom. And I was like, oh, my God, this is amazing.

• 1:15:05Keke Palmer?

  It's really, really beautiful, Michelle.

• 1:15:07Speaker 03

  Really a beautiful tribute and just super fly and super comfortable.

• 1:15:11Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, I know I gotta get out of here. Um, congratulations again on the podcast, I am O with you and Craig. That's really, it's really taken off.

• 1:15:19Speaker 03

  Thank you, honey.

• 1:15:20Keke Palmer?

  And I had so much fun.

• 1:15:21Speaker 03

  Same to you.

• 1:15:22Keke Palmer?

  Who would be a guest that you would want on there that you haven't had?

• 1:15:25Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, there's so, we just got started. Um, Dolly Parton?

• 1:15:31Speaker 03

  So let me give a shout out for Dolly.

• 1:15:34Keke Palmer?

  RuPaul.

• 1:15:36Speaker 03

  RuPaul is one of those.

• 1:15:40Speaker 03

  Celine Dion. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I could go on and on. I think some of the younger, new artists out here.

• 1:15:51Keke Palmer?

  Catherine Jackson would come over there and talk to you.

• 1:15:52Speaker 03

  You know, I mean, I'm still about making sure people feel if they're not comfortable.

• 1:15:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Speaker 03

  You know, because that's also part of it. It's like our podcasts are about conversation and vulnerability. So people, I don't, you know, if you're not ready to, I'd love to talk to Diana Ross.

• 1:16:11Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. That has to happen. It'd be great to have her and Tracy together.

• 1:16:15Speaker 03

  It would be. It would be. But, you know, I understand people are in their spaces and, you know, so we, you know, I think part of what makes our, we're trying to make our table a very safe table.

• 1:16:29Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:29Speaker 03

  Where people really feel like we're just talking like this, just like you're, you're doing. So that people feel safe to share because there's so much, there's so much teaching that can be done through that sharing. But you have to feel comfortable and not feel like somebody's gonna, is trying to trip you up and

• 1:16:48Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 1:16:48Speaker 03

  Get you, get you. I've, I've been in those interviews and they are irritating. It's like, I'll talk to you, but don't, don't lie to me.

• 1:16:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Speaker 03

  You know, don't be nasty.

• 1:17:00Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, because what's the point? It actually doesn't get, it doesn't service anyone or anything.

• 1:17:04Speaker 03

  No, no, so.

• 1:17:05Keke Palmer?

  Okay, I know I gotta let you go.

• 1:17:08Keke Palmer?

  But I love to play games with my guests and you are.

• 1:17:12Speaker 03

  Let's play.

• 1:17:12Keke Palmer?

  You are when they go low, I go high queen. So I figured we'd put a little game together like that.

• 1:17:18Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:17:19Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so we're gonna run through some real life scenarios and you're gonna tell me, are we going low or are we going high?

• 1:17:24Speaker 03

  Okay, alright.

• 1:17:26Keke Palmer?

  First one. A coworker takes credit for your work.

• 1:17:30Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:17:32Keke Palmer?

  You going low, he going high.

• 1:17:34Speaker 03

  You know, I'd, I'd like to think that I can go high in that moment because, because, because I'm an overachiever.

• 1:17:43Speaker 03

  People will know what I do. You know, it's like, you gonna know what I do. I'm gonna show you. I don't have to, and, and people will see that you didn't do it. So a lot of times it's better to let other people see that thing, to discover it, than you be the one going, no, that's what I, because now you in the fight. Now you in the fight with, well, now I gotta prove you wrong. Now I'm arguing with this person, right? So I, I'd rather let my work speak for itself. And there's more satisfaction on the other end when somebody else comes to you and says, I know he's lying, you know, because I know what you can do. You know, and it's, it's almost like a triple win when that happens.

• 1:18:25Speaker 03

  Because you know, they, they're looking bad. So I'd still, I would go high.

• 1:18:29Keke Palmer?

  Ooh.

• 1:18:30Speaker 03

  I would go high.

• 1:18:31Keke Palmer?

  That's a hard thing to do, but what you just said was, I mean, that's the thing. When people discover it, wow. Someone shares something you told them in private.

• 1:18:39Speaker 03

  Ooh, it depends on what it is.

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  You know, I mean, some private stuff, it's like some, you know, when you're talking to your friends, you're like, she, you gonna say something.

• 1:18:50Speaker 03

  But it.

• 1:18:50Keke Palmer?

  Sometimes that's why you tell them.

• 1:18:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, really, really. Um, and sometimes it's like, I shouldn't have told you that.

• 1:18:56Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:57Speaker 03

  You know.

• 1:18:57Keke Palmer?

  So it's on me.

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  So sometimes it's on me, but if it was, if it was something hurtful, I'd, I'd go low. I, I, I might go low.

• 1:19:05Keke Palmer?

  Might get them together.

• 1:19:06Speaker 03

  Pull them aside, yeah.

• 1:19:07Keke Palmer?

  Okay, you're being judged more for how you look than what, what you said.

• 1:19:13Speaker 03

  I'm going low with my team.

• 1:19:17Speaker 03

  You know, just to get it out, you know? Cause there's, there are places to go low, right? But publicly, I'm gonna, and I'm gonna resolve that's not about me, that's about them. And then publicly, I'll go high. That's also something I say to people. Like, sometimes you just need, you go to your mama to go low, right? It's like, and don't you have those conversations? You come back.

• 1:19:38Keke Palmer?

  I just did the other day, and I felt like, oh, my gosh, yeah, like that's, you, this is the whole point of safe space. The safe space is so you can be human.

• 1:19:47Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:19:47Keke Palmer?

  And not always have to be.

• 1:19:48Speaker 03

  That's right. We used to do some stuff when we'd do comms prep, Crystal knows, where, you know, you run over the questions, especially with, you know, mainstream media. Just so that I could get a chance to give the answer I would like to give, you know? And I would do it in front of the team. It's like, well, what I will wanna say is like the boat, we talk about this is the answer that would shut down the presidency. Imagine if I said this, and then team would laugh, and then they'd be like, but you're not gonna say that, right?

• 1:20:20Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:20:22Speaker 03

  Maybe, you don't know.

• 1:20:25Speaker 03

  So we try to have fun with it, you know? Laugh about it.

• 1:20:28Keke Palmer?

  That made me think about that movie with Viola Davis, when she was portraying you.

• 1:20:32Speaker 03

  Uh huh. Oh, yeah, I didn't watch that.

• 1:20:37Speaker 03

  That's the one thing I can't do.

• 1:20:38Keke Palmer?

  Okay, okay, love Viola.

• 1:20:41Speaker 03

  Do, and I love to give Viola.

• 1:20:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:20:46Speaker 03

  We can talk about that scene.

• 1:20:49Speaker 03

  Then I'll watch it.

• 1:20:50Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, I'm on the floor. Okay, someone calls you too much in a professional setting. They put you on blast.

• 1:20:59Speaker 03

  What do you mean?

• 1:21:00Keke Palmer?

  So let's say you were at a, you know, let's say we're at a conference meeting, you know, or you're having a conversation, and they go, this is like, not a good version of it, like, you're crazy, like, they undermine you.

• 1:21:14Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:21:14Keke Palmer?

  In front of people.

• 1:21:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:18Keke Palmer?

  Cause then now, I've been undermined it. Do I go up there on the stage?

• 1:21:25Speaker 03

  That would probably be, uh, go high in public, pull them aside. It'd be like with the girls, be a verbal kinda snatching up. You know, just so that they can look me in the eye, you know, and be like, don't do that. I'm like, I know what you're doing. You know, I'd probably give a, a, a medium warning with a little touch of going low.

• 1:21:51Keke Palmer?

  That arm grab.

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  That little arm grab and, you know, with hopes that that would straighten it out.

• 1:21:57Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, cuz that's tough.

• 1:21:58Speaker 03

  That's tough.

• 1:21:59Keke Palmer?

  When people act silly in public and they leave you.

• 1:22:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've never had that experience.

• 1:22:03Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:03Speaker 03

  There's also kinda setting the tone that you might do that, but you're not gonna do that to me. You know, and I think that that's, you know, okay, you know, you lead with your chest a little bit in life.

• 1:22:14Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:14Speaker 03

  So that, you know, you just sort of set the tone for, I don't, don't play with me like that.

• 1:22:20Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:20Speaker 03

  You know, and that, that's learning your voice over time, you know? I think you, you earn some of that sometimes in the process of earning it. You gotta suck it up, you know, cuz maybe you don't have the leverage. You know, may, maybe they're coming after you because they can, right?

• 1:22:38Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:22:38Speaker 03

  Um, all of this is circumstantial, but, you know, sometimes you gotta pull a person up.

• 1:22:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:45Speaker 03

  Do a little, little low. That's, that's where, it's a little bit of everything. A little low, a little medium, maybe a little, little high later on down the line. You come back on them.

• 1:22:55Keke Palmer?

  That's, I've done that.

• 1:22:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, come back.

• 1:22:57Keke Palmer?

  I've done that, okay? Okay, last two.

• 1:23:03Keke Palmer?

  Someone misinterprets your words in a public space. Sure that you experienced this a lot.

• 1:23:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I think you can go high and check a person, you know? I, I would, you know, going high doesn't mean correcting the truth. It's also tone, how you do it, you know?

• 1:23:19Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:23:20Speaker 03

  Just because, you know, you don't have to double back down and head pop and everything, right? You know, just be mindful. Again, going low, going high isn't about becoming a victim, you know? I mean, that, that's not the intent of the, you know, it's not like just taking mess. It's just, but it's how you do it, you know, when you do it, right? And what are the words that you're using? You can check somebody with a smile.

• 1:23:50Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:51Speaker 03

  You know, you can make a point, you know, with a joke, which I do, I use humor all the time. I've talked about a bunch of people here, you know, without using names, you know?

• 1:24:04Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 1:24:05Speaker 03

  I mean, to me, that's a version of high. You can make a point without bringing us all down with you.

• 1:24:13Keke Palmer?

  Last one.

• 1:24:15Keke Palmer?

  A close friend downplays your success as luck.

• 1:24:19Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't care about that, you know? I would definitely go high because my life would speak to that, you know? It'd be like, just watch me boo.

• 1:24:29Keke Palmer?

  Okay, watch me boo. Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  I always enjoy talking to you. I am so proud of you. But girl, you can't save everybody. So one step at a time. Conquer, you know, small steps to all of it. But I love you so much.

• 1:24:49Keke Palmer?

  I love you so much. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you.

• 1:24:54Speaker 03

  All right.

• 1:25:02Keke Palmer?

  That conversation just gave me so much hope. It's a reminder that growth doesn't stop, no matter where you are in life. As long as you're being true to yourself and doing your best to show up fully as yourself. It's not about being perfect. It's about being real. I'm just so thankful to Michelle Obama for being here with me today. I truly, truly appreciate her. And thank you all for watching. We'll see you next time on Baby. This is Keke Palmer.