Behind the Scenes Minis: Self-talk Hoax

Holly and Tracy discuss the idea of autosuggestion and positive self-talk. Tracy shares her thoughts on writings about the Pompey stone. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 3:08Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 3:18Holly Frey?

  Hello and happy Friday. I'm Holly Frey. And I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about Emile Kueh and auto suggestion this week. Yeah, I had a lot of feelings.

• 3:30Holly Frey?

  I knew you would. I also just thought there were a couple of fun quotes that I came across while researching. Okay. One was written by that biographer of Kueh that we mentioned, and it is the French point of view criticizing the way Americans wrote about hypnosis. Okay. And he says, meanwhile, the ideas of the Nazi school had spread. In America, they were being exploited and popularized with all the claptrap and noise that accompanies bluff. And I just loved that. I was like, yeah, that's true. Because people were like, hypnotism, it's magical. And they were like, we are trying to do science. You're messing it up. You're making it harder. Yeah. Kind of fascinating.

• 4:14Holly Frey?

  On the flip side of that, there was in that criticism of Kueh in the US, particularly from the medical community. The New York Neurological Institute described Kueh as astoundingly ignorant of all scientific research and knowledge. So.

• 4:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 4:32Holly Frey?

  Point of view changes everything.

• 4:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 4:37Holly Frey?

  Start in with your many thoughts.

• 4:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, well, so when I was in high school, my mom took me to a workshop. I'm not going to say the specific name because I don't want to prompt like discourse.

• 4:50Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 4:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  But it, a lot of it had a lot of stuff in common with what Kueh was writing about.

• 4:57Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 4:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  A significant part of it did not and was way more woo woo magic.

• 5:03Holly Frey?

  Yeah. Which would have made him absolutely irate, I think.

• 5:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. And so that part, like the whole woo woo magic part, I've pretty much jettisoned out of my mind. But the parts that were more about, like the, the more self affirmation.

• 5:18Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 5:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Positive thinking, like that kind of stuff. And some other aspects that had to do with basically, basically meditation and mindfulness. All of that I have found very useful to me.

• 5:31Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 5:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  For my whole life in the decades since then. When my mom first went to this workshop, she, we've talked about on the show before, has an incurable, essentially untreatable progressive neurological disease.

• 5:48Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 5:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  And this was happening when I was in high school. She had not progressed nearly as far as she has today. And the, the stuff that we learned in this class did absolutely zero to slow the progression of her disease.

• 6:03Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 6:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  But in terms of making her feel more in, in control in a situation that she had no control over and improving her outlook and her mood and just having a, a better mental state in the middle of all that, it was incredibly useful. And I think all of that is like important. And some of the stuff that dismisses this kind of thing as not effective, I think sometimes.

• 6:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  Kind of underestimates how important a person's mental state is just to existing.

• 6:39Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 6:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Like, you could do a bunch of research about, does a person's mental state affect how quickly they recover? Maybe that's, maybe yes, maybe no, whatever. But like, you also have the part where your improved mental state, while that's happening, means your life feels a little better.

• 7:02Holly Frey?

  Exactly.

• 7:03Tracy V. Wilson?

  While it's happening. And that's also important. Like, I don't, so yeah, yeah.

• 7:10Holly Frey?

  Yeah, I think, I mean, the concept of positive self-talk is pretty bolstered by science at this point, right? Like psychiatrists, psychologists will encourage you to use positive self-talk as a way, whether or not it improves anything like health-wise, it can improve the way you deal with the world, which is likely to have an overall improvement on a lot of other parts of your life, just because you're kind of operating at a better starting point than if you were.

• 7:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Holly Frey?

  Kind of down in the dumps and saying a lot of negative stuff to yourself. There are, I didn't dig into them because they get really heady and really fast and it's a little bit hard to draw direct conclusions, but there are a lot of studies about, not necessarily curing anything or fixing any malady, but like your immune system getting a boost from like.

• 8:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 8:03Holly Frey?

  A positive attitude and positive self-talk. So, and it is tricky because it is stuff we don't always understand how it's exactly functioning.

• 8:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right, right.

• 8:12Holly Frey?

  Which does make it very open for people to be like.

• 8:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:16Holly Frey?

  A little hokey about the whole thing. And it kind of robs the legitimate part of it of its.

• 8:22Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 8:23Holly Frey?

  Of its, you know, esteem because.

• 8:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:26Holly Frey?

  It has now gotten lumped in with a lot of other things.

• 8:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:28Holly Frey?

  Hypnotism kind of is the same, right? There are definitely studies of like, smoking cessation.

• 8:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 8:35Holly Frey?

  And people, you know, having a better, more effective outcome and being able to stop smoking if they are getting hypnosis for that versus not. Again, though, that does all, there are other factors, like who you are, what your brain is open to, yeah. It's tricky.

• 8:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:54Holly Frey?

  But I do love that Emile Koue does not appear to have been a jerk.

• 8:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I thought that too. And I mean, it seems like he didn't want people really making a ton of money off of what he was doing. Like, he would have been opposed to the world of wellness grift that we live in.

• 9:11Holly Frey?

  Very much so. He did not believe in any of that.

• 9:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  No grift for him. He reminds me in some ways of many, many, many years ago when I was in massage school. There were people in the class that would say stuff that was just not founded in reality at all. It was kind of frustrating. And we had an anatomy and physiology teacher who was a nurse and was very practical about things. And was like, look, you don't need to be telling your clients that their massage is going to like, cure anything that they have going on because just getting the massage feels good. I know you are not a fan of massage, Holly. I love a massage.

• 9:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  And he was like, get a massage. You will, you'll feel better. And like,

• 10:01Holly Frey?

  That is reason enough.

• 10:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  That's enough. It's, that's enough. You don't need to be saying that, you know, your massage will help all of these other things. That there is evidence for some stuff, but like the fact that you will feel better by itself is important.

• 10:18Holly Frey?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I, the massage feels good to me.

• 10:23Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Holly Frey?

  The problem is that my brain gets real panicky, that I am too relaxed and something bad will happen and I can't handle it.

• 10:34Holly Frey?

  I don't know why I feel responsible for everything that goes on around me in the world, like, but I apparently do all the time. There's no reason for this. I'm not an oldest child.

• 10:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Have you tried some auto suggestion?

• 10:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  I am not responsible for everything in the world.

• 10:53Holly Frey?

  I'm not responsible for all of it. Here is the other thing that I would like to discuss, and it's very important.

• 11:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 11:01Holly Frey?

  And I especially like it because Emile Couet appears to have been delightful. I think he could potentially unseat Pierre de Coubertin as best mustache on the episode.

• 11:16Holly Frey?

  And then it will be someone who I don't think was a misogynist jerk.

• 11:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:21Holly Frey?

  Great. Let's celebrate him. When you see pictures of him.

• 11:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  Nice, nice.

• 11:25Holly Frey?

  He looks so, he looks happy all the time. Not that everybody has to be, but like he has just that sweet countenance. His smile is adorable. He looks charming as heck.

• 11:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 11:38Holly Frey?

  It's kind of like Santa and Colonel Sanders had a very smiley baby. He's so cute. He's so cute.

• 11:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 11:47Holly Frey?

  And I.

• 11:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  I love this. I will see if I can find some pictures of him that we are allowed to use and we'll put it on our Netflix.

• 11:55Holly Frey?

  Yeah, I think probably there are, there are some, some usable pictures. He is very, very, he's very sweet faced. Like the kind of person that I believe that there are probably people who just by being in the room with him felt better.

• 12:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 12:11Holly Frey?

  Therefore, you cannot measure the efficacy of his method because it's like, well, you were, you were with Emile Couet. Of course you felt better.

• 12:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 12:19Holly Frey?

  He looks very reassuring.

• 12:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  Brightening up the room.

• 12:22Holly Frey?

  Just a charming little sweetheart. Everyone, every description of him, even people that wanted to debunk him, talked about how charming and kind he was, which is kind of a good measure of a man. Even if you don't agree with them, you still think they're a good guy.

• 12:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 12:38Holly Frey?

  That's not bad at all. So hopefully, if anyone out there is dealing with anything that perhaps could be helped by auto suggestion, like I said at the end of that episode, couldn't hurt, may or may not help, but it's probably not going to do any harm if you just want to try it and see if it works for you. You know, I'm a, I'm a believer in positive self-talk. It's a thing I've had to learn in recent years. It does seem to help me. I don't know that it would cure anything, but it helps me feel a little better about myself and the world. And that's good enough for me. It doesn't have to be more than that.

• 13:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 03

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• 13:46Speaker 02

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal, and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced-calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant-to-be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 15:16Speaker 08

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• 16:07Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. Tune in for season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a Ruby Studio production in partnership with Argenx. Hosted by public health and policy expert Dr. Martine Hackett, Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition pushes the conversation within the rare disease community forward. Featuring guests living with MG, CIDP, myositis, SMA, and other rare autoimmune conditions, each episode explores hope, progress, and connection. How does research create new opportunities? How do shared experiences help light the way forward? How do we best show up for each other?

• 16:52Holly Frey?

  Tune in to find out. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 17:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  We talked about the Pompey Stone for an April Fool's Day episode with just a very low stakes historical hoax or prank.

• 17:19Holly Frey?

  Very little pain. Kind of a whoops, but not anything evil.

• 17:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, I found it very silly, and it became more silly the longer it went on. Like, every new person who wrote a book, just assuming that it was a historical relic that dated back to 1520, got a little funnier to me. And then the fact that the last, like, major publication on it was so detailed and so full of speculation. It was like 13 pages of speculating about stuff.

• 17:57Holly Frey?

  I wrote a note and called it "The Holmes Fanfic" because it was kind of a weird thing. About making up a person that this was about with a shocking amount of like... Believed details about that person's life. I was like,

• 18:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 18:14Holly Frey?

  Were you just feeling creative, sir?

• 18:17Tracy V. Wilson?

  It's true that those are a lot of things that all happened. There really were a lot of expeditions that came to North America. There really were a lot of people from Spain on them. There really were a lot of people who, for whatever means or reason, went to live within an indigenous community. None of that meant that the stone was connected to any of it.

• 18:40Holly Frey?

  No.

• 18:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think the fact that while this stone was kind of a, a public curiosity, and people were taking like a nail or a file to like clean the inscriptions out. That became an explanation for why it didn't look that old.

• 18:59Holly Frey?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  Because it, it doesn't really look that old. And so people were like, well, of course, like in, in the process of cleaning it up, this whole inscription has been freshened up. Like, that must be why. But that was, that was not why.

• 19:14Holly Frey?

  It really speaks to the human desire to want to believe things.

• 19:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Something that, I think Schoolcraft is the person who said this. Craft, whose writing style was incredibly circular. Everything that he said took twice as long as it really needed to, was very roundabout. But he was sort of saying that like, one of the characteristics of the age that he was living in was turning any local artifact into a wonder. And that this had been done with the Pompey stone. Like, people sort of treated it as this

• 19:51Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 19:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  wondrous thing, which led to a lot of people being overly credulous about it, I guess.

• 20:00Holly Frey?

  I mean, there's also just the, like, it's exciting to consider something like that. Like, can you believe?

• 20:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 20:07Holly Frey?

  That farmer just accidentally found this amazing thing. And I, I understand the impulse to jump the band, on the bandwagon and get

• 20:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 20:17Holly Frey?

  relieved about it, but.

• 20:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  When, when I was a kid, we had, like, the, the house that we lived in had a small amount of land. It was like one and a third acres or something like that. And so there was the house, and then there was a hilly wooded area, and then at the bottom was where we had a garden that for most of my childhood, we like, we grew all of the vegetables that we ate. And if I'm remembering correctly, it was somewhere in that stretch of land or nearby, my brother or I, one of us, the details are very fuzzy, someone found a skull. Yeah, as you do. And boy, did I want that skull to be a dinosaur. It was definitely not a dinosaur.

• 21:03Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think it was, you know, a horse or a cow, or maybe a deer. Right. Not remotely a dinosaur at all. But I remember in my very small childhood being like, but what if it's a dinosaur? Should we get someone to check if it's a dinosaur? It was definitely not a dinosaur. Yes, but you were a child. Yes, I was, I was a child. I mean, we also lived in an area where people would sometimes find like arrowheads or other projectile points. Or dinosaurs. Maybe dinosaurs somewhere. Definitely not that skull. I think my dad has started listening to the podcast. He may now fill in the gaps of my memory about the skull.

• 21:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  I could be completely misremembering it from my very small childhood.

• 21:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  Patrick grew up in New York, but much, much farther west in New York than where this happened. And so I asked him if he had ever heard of it when, because I didn't quite real, I hadn't yet visualized the map where these places were on the map. And so I just, the names were reminiscent enough of some of the places that he did live very close to, that I thought it might have been in his area. And I was like, did you ever heard? And he said, absolutely not. I have no idea what you're talking about.

• 22:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  So even if it did make kind of a splash at the time, maybe outside of that immediate area of New York, maybe not as known, based on the sample of one person that I asked.

• 22:42Holly Frey?

  Right. And also, I mean, to be fair, it was kind of like, uh, well, this is so cool. This is so cool. Uh, it's not as cool as we thought, you guys. Let's just.

• 22:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  I like that it did seem like he did not get a sudden wave of hate mail after debunking

• 22:59Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  the Pompey Stone.

• 23:01Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 23:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  And had instead, somebody immediately corroborate, like, yeah, you're right. It's, that's a fake.

• 23:08Holly Frey?

  It is tricky to, like, even the people that invoked this as evidence of something they wanted to be true after it had been debunked. I mean, I'm willing to give them grace because they didn't have things that where they could just look it up and check if there were

• 23:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Sure.

• 23:28Holly Frey?

  additional pieces of information. But I, it is quite funny how long that went on.

• 23:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think at least two of the three people that we mentioned, including it and stuff, were specifically writing about like Catholic history. And, and so it would make sense to, if you had previously heard this thing about how there was, you know, a Spanish Catholic in New York in 1520, then especially if you just latched on to that, might not go verify whether it has been debunked.

• 24:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  In the however many years since you heard about it. I've honestly done that on this show.

• 24:10Holly Frey?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 24:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  Rely on something that I learned in childhood is no longer accurate.

• 24:16Holly Frey?

  I mean, I think most of us.

• 24:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Have things that we learned Uh huh. At an early age or at some point, not even necessarily an early age, in college, in high school. Yeah. As an adult, that it turns out that people now know are not true, but Yeah. That information doesn't automatically filter to everybody if you're not Yeah. Out there going, oh, hey, was that debunked? You, you never know. Well, and there's also the stuff that you learn is like a much more simplistic way. Yeah. That then, like, the thing that always I remember is like, when I was a child, I learned that your cells have a membrane around them. Right. And then when I got, I was an adult and I was in massage school and our massage school anatomy textbook was one that was used in nursing schools a lot.

• 25:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I learned that this membrane that I had learned about was something called a lipid bilayer, not remotely what I had imagined by the word membrane. Not a sack. Well, when you're in, when you're a school kid, right? Like, we all remember the exercise, draw the cell and its component parts. Oh, yeah. And you started with like, an oblong circle usually, and then put the pieces inside of it. So I, I mean, that makes, that makes sense. Yeah, totally appropriate to teach the simplest, the simpler Yeah. Explanation of something to younger kids and then to build on that later. Or not, if you don't go to massage school, you may never know.

• 25:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  If you never take a more advanced anatomy class, you just think of it as a membrane, it's fine.

• 25:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  If you love April Fool's Day pranks, I hope there were good pranks for you this past April Fool's Day. And if you hate that, I hope nobody messed with you. And I hope that no one fell for fake April Fool's Day articles on the internet and then felt bad about it. Whatever is coming up for you this weekend, I hope that is also great. We will be back on Monday with a brand new episode, I think on nothing prank related.

• 26:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  We will be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow.

• 26:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness? I'm Shaquille O'Neal, and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound Trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia if you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 28:21Speaker 05

  This is Troy Millings. If you travel for work like I do, you know every trip is an opportunity to get more from the miles you're already earning. Whether you're heading to your next client meeting or catching a flight home, those miles can go a long way. For a limited time, new Delta SkyMiles Business Card members can earn 200,000 bonus miles, the highest miles offered this year, with the Delta SkyMiles Reserve Business American Express Card. Apply today at www.delta.com/podcast. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply.

• 28:55Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.