Wringing in the New Year

Trevor is home in South Africa. He and his good friends Anele Mdoda and Sizwe Dhlomo have a spirited conversation about the big issues that worry them as we hurtle into 2025. They discuss whether the global experiment is failing, revolution as a form of positive societal connection, and how external forces shape us and our children.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Trevor Noah?

  Verizon knows that holiday decisions and holiday deals can be complicated. Every year, I tell myself I'm gonna keep the holidays simple. And then the invitations start. They start coming in. Should I go to the party? Should I stay at home? If I go, do I bring a gift? If I bring a gift, does everyone get a gift? And why does someone have an organized secret Santa where the spending limit is fifty dollars, but the minimum is seventy-five? How does that even make sense? That's not a gift exchange, that's a financial audit. And then there's the food. Do I cook? Do I order? Do I pretend I cooked? Because I mean, I feel like if you transfer something into your own serving dish, legally, you've participated in the preparation, alright? Well, if you want a holiday decision that's not complicated, switching to Simplicity Plan from Verizon is the one for you.

• 0:42Trevor Noah?

  One plan, one price, just thirty dollars a line per month for you or the whole family. The holidays are complicated. Switching to Verizon and shopping their best deals is simple. For new customers, thirty dollars a line includes auto pay and switch discount. Unlimited data is restricted to on-device smartphone usage, domestic data roaming at 2G speeds, additional taxes, fees, and terms apply. Earth can be a lot sometimes. Heat waves, gas prices, bad hair days. Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off your problems and turn on your favorite movies and shows. You know, the ones you already love.

• 1:26Trevor Noah?

  From Anchorman, the Legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick, from Alias to The X-Files. It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never. Welcome to What Now?, another episode of the podcast where this time I'm in South Africa. And if you've listened to enough of the podcast, you'll know that when I'm in South Africa, that means I'm with my people. And when I'm with my people... We create different episodes. On one of the first ones I did, I did for my 40th birthday was Anneliese M. Doda, a good friend of mine. She's a broadcaster, she is an executive producer, an all-round media mogul, and most importantly, a supermom.

• 2:11Trevor Noah?

  And my other friend, Sizwe Lomond, he's a TV presenter, a radio host, a business person in economics. I think he has a degree in some, he studies a lot, whatever. The point is, he's a friend and we're gonna be chatting together. Disclaimer for everyone who listens, these are South Africans, I'm including myself, so we're gonna talk like South Africans. And yeah, whatever happens, happens because when my friends and I do a podcast, we try and make it as informal as possible. So if you're looking for like the dictionary definition of like a simple podcast, you came to the wrong place. Scroll to the next one in your feed now and enjoy that. But if you're looking for like an honest get-together of three human beings who love, respect and fight with each other, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to What Now?

• 3:02Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  One, two, three, four, I declare a thumb war. One, two, three.

• 3:21Trevor Noah?

  This sounds great. We're hearing nothing.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Mmm, you even put somethingies.

• 3:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  You, your face went, bitch, who do you think I am?

• 3:32Trevor Noah?

  Oh, man.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  You look and be like, yeah, this is who I is.

• 3:39Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that is so funny.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  Kini Sana, bitch, who do you think I am?

• 3:43Trevor Noah?

  So welcome, guys. Happy New Year.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Happy New Year.

• 3:45Trevor Noah?

  Can you still say Happy New Year?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Yeah dude, of course.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Until.

• 3:49Trevor Noah?

  What do you mean? Until, okay, what's your time, what's your cutoff?

• 3:51Speaker 02

  I mean, you know.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Valentine's Day.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  It depends how well I know you. It also, it depends how well I know you.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  So with you guys, it's like, okay, you're pushing it now.

• 3:59Trevor Noah?

  But we, so we are at the cusp.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:01Trevor Noah?

  All right.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  People you close to, you should have said happy new year on the first of Jan.

• 4:04Trevor Noah?

  Hundred percent.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Otherwise, not close.

• 4:05Trevor Noah?

  I've never thought of like a, a scale, like a gradient for when you can say.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Everything is on a spectrum, bro.

• 4:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you, you, you're truly a math guy for everything. Caesar's got like a graph for everything. The x-axis is friendship time, then the y-axis is.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  But remember, Caesar didn't have friends, he's got cousins. We, we are the first friends in Caesar's life. Please, let's remember this.

• 4:25Trevor Noah?

  So happy, happy new year, guys. Happy new year.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  That's funny. Happy new year to you too.

• 4:32Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, man.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Stranger?

• 4:33Trevor Noah?

  What do you mean stranger?

• 4:34Speaker 02

  I guess we said, if you're a friend, you should have said happy new year.

• 4:37Trevor Noah?

  Wow. Oh, wow, okay.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Oh, he came back for that one, didn't you?

• 4:41Trevor Noah?

  All right, all right. At least you're on form, we, we're in the mix. I think differently about the conversations we're gonna have. Because I enjoy delving into your minds as friends, but also as problem solvers. And then I find sometimes when we have these conversations, like the, the last one we did on the podcast, people were just like, oh yeah, that was an interesting conversation and you guys, your friendship. And what I realize is friendship is almost the, the cooking apparatus that we use to figure things out. Does that make sense?

• 5:11Speaker 01

  I get you.

• 5:11Trevor Noah?

  Because everyone can have a conversation, but I find when you have a conversation with your people, there are extra ingredients and extra tools that you have, namely your friendship, that defines some of the conversation that you can't get with a stranger.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  I think it's good to have a conversation with your friends because we can say, ah, ah, don't say that one in public.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Keep that one here.

• 5:31Trevor Noah?

  Wait, do you think that's still a thing?

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yes, you guys do to us.

• 5:34Trevor Noah?

  Oh, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, no, no, but I, and this is an honest question.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:38Trevor Noah?

  In fact, this is a great question to, to kick us off because, because the, the, the conversation I wanted to have with you was, what are you worried about going into the new year, moving forward, right? Because a lot of people have like a positive outlook.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:51Trevor Noah?

  But I'll start with that, funny enough. Do you think cancelling is still a thing? I think it's finished.

• 5:58Speaker 01

  I think the attempt to cancel is still there. And the fact that there could be an attempt to cancel you means that you could still be cancelled. Because you could be ducking and diving and catch one stray that does cancel you. So cancelling is still a thing. This is why it is important to ask your friends first. They call them WhatsApp conversations. You know, sometimes, sometimes you'll tweet something, or put it on X, or you'll put it on Instagram, and someone will be like, hey, yeah, yeah, first start with your friends with that one.

• 6:21Trevor Noah?

  Test that out and then...

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's definitely still a thing.

• 6:24Trevor Noah?

  I don't know.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Because guys, if you lose 10% of your income, it's still 10% of your income that you've lost.

• 6:29Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Do you know what I'm saying?

• 6:31Trevor Noah?

  You, so you're looking at even like micro cancellations?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:34Trevor Noah?

  You're looking at like, yeah, erosion cancellations?

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Yes, like, you know...

• 6:38Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I was just talking about like, you're cancelled. It feels like it's finished.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 6:44Trevor Noah?

  Like, it feels like we were at a peak?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  So, here's the thing. If I'm using Annelies departure point, right? Then I don't necessarily wanna take it to cancellation and loss of income. I would just look at it as just how humans interact. And the first thing is, some people don't know who they are. That's the first thing.

• 7:06Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Then, other people know who they are, but they're uncomfortable with who they are.

• 7:12Trevor Noah?

  Okay, oh damn.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  So now, when you have a conversation, there are certain things that they wanna hold back, specifically when they're with strangers, because they don't want the strangers to gain insights to their part that they're uncomfortable with.

• 7:24Trevor Noah?

  Like their racism or xenophobia?

• 7:25Speaker 02

  All of that, yeah.

• 7:26Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  And it could be anything. Maybe you're a freak, and you're just like, ah, too much.

• 7:30Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Now, when you're speaking to your friends...

• 7:32Trevor Noah?

  So your friends should know you're a freak.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Now, your friends already know, like...

• 7:35Speaker 01

  At least one of your friends.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Dude, there's nothing, there's nothing here, there's nothing here that I can say that can shock you guys.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, at least one of your friends. In, in the event that you die in a dodgy place,

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  one of us must be like, yeah, well.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, so now...

• 7:47Trevor Noah?

  I knew they went there.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 7:48Trevor Noah?

  I knew he frequented.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  You see?

• 7:50Speaker 01

  A freak.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  So now we have those conversations, then you go, okay, okay, okay. Turn it back a little bit. And again, it's not because you fear being cancelled. It's just, again, there are certain things that are just appropriate and others that are inappropriate. That's all it is.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Things that are appropriate to end public and things that are inappropriate.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Yes, you get like inner thoughts and outer thoughts.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Yes, I agree with that.

• 8:11Trevor Noah?

  I like how you said this like you studied it in a textbook.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  It most likely did come from a textbook.

• 8:15Trevor Noah?

  You're so robotic in your thinking. Yeah, no, that's what I mean, but you're so robotic in your thinking that it really sounds like, literally the way you said that. There are inner thoughts and there are outer thoughts. Humans only do inner thoughts inside.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  He's been A I.

• 8:27Trevor Noah?

  No, you've been A I the whole time. You really have. All right, so why don't we go around? We'll first, I want the high level of what you worried about for the year, you know, as we go into the future. And by the way, it's not even just for the year. It's rather what you're most concerned about at the beginning of the year that you think may be a thing. Because you know, like every year has a different feeling.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:47Trevor Noah?

  Right?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  So I have two. Do you want me to give you the two now or is it one round around?

• 8:52Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, give us the two now. And then I want to hear Caesar's and then I'll give you mine and then we'll see where we get off.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  The first one is my son's turning ten this year. And he's reaching the part of his life where he no longer looks inside the home for role models and who to mimic himself on. He's going to look externally. And this wasn't something that was, you know, on, you know, top of my mind until we went on holiday and he made a friend. A friend with a discipline problem that by the end of the holiday, I had to say to him, give me your phone. Did you add this boy's number? I said, delete him, block him. We are not going to be friends with him type of thing. And then it had me thinking that, you know, we had a point now where I just have to make sure that his self-esteem is so high. And his confidence is so unshakable that things like that don't impress him.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  He has to remember how he was raised at home.

• 9:42Trevor Noah?

  I love this. Don't say more on it, don't say more on it. Okay, so the problem, we got the problem. This is all the worry.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:47Trevor Noah?

  All right, what's your second worry?

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Last year, we had a Christmas party, right? And everybody had to stand up and say what they're grateful for.

• 9:54Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Obviously, people are grateful for, you know, work and, you know, good relationships and, you know, being financially sound.

• 10:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Somebody.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Stood up and said that he is grateful for how? He, out of sixty people, he's the only one who said that. And it got a lot of us thinking that, you know, we're at a place where anything could be something. Like, right now, I have an issue with my shoulder. And I'm so scared to go and check it out. Because I'm so scared they're gonna say something like, oh, you've got six months. I'm like, no. I've got things to do. I can't have six months. And I promise you, my health is something that is just starting to appear in my list of things that I worry about. A lot more than it did because sooner or later, you know, you have to come to terms that you're not immortal. You're not going to be around here for long, you know?

• 10:47Trevor Noah?

  Damn, these are very... Okay, these are existential worries in different ways. Sees, what are you worried about?

• 10:53Speaker 02

  So, this year per se, not too much. Last year, I was worried about maybe the possibility of World War III. I don't think that's gonna happen now. Yeah, it's not gonna happen now.

• 11:03Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  They, these guys fumbled. They fubba the back.

• 11:06Trevor Noah?

  What? They fumbled the World War III?

• 11:07Speaker 02

  They fumbled the opportunity to start World War III.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  This Ukraine and Russia.

• 11:11Trevor Noah?

  Somebody say it like that.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  No, all of them.

• 11:13Trevor Noah?

  This guy just says.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Israel, the US.

• 11:15Trevor Noah?

  The opportunity to start World War III.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  They fubba the back.

• 11:19Trevor Noah?

  Damn, okay. So you're no longer worried about World War III? I mean, that's a great way to start, yeah.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  But, in the short to midterm, I am worried about the type of world that my kids will grow up in.

• 11:31Trevor Noah?

  You've got kids?

• 11:33Speaker 02

  In theory.

• 11:33Trevor Noah?

  Okay, alright.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:35Trevor Noah?

  You never, guys, you never know. Your friends can now, like, announce things.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  So, so, and it's more to what Anile was talking about as well, right? Because you can do everything in your power to protect your, your children and those that you love within the ambit of your circle. But then they need to exist within a community, right? And when they go out, hey, man, I'm seeing that we're just getting too liberal right now. And some of those things are gonna come back to bite us.

• 11:59Trevor Noah?

  Okay, I like this. Alright, great. So, Anile's worry is your son is now at an age where he's looking externally for role models. Second thing you're worried about is you're at an age where.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Anything is anything.

• 12:11Trevor Noah?

  Internal.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, is something.

• 12:13Trevor Noah?

  Is something, yeah, okay. Sees, where no longer worried about World War III? Huh, but worried about the world that his children will live in. Because now there'll be a world. So now you've got different problems. Okay, cool. The thing I'm worried about, maybe it touches a little bit on what you're saying. But I worry that the, um, I worry that the global experiment has failed or is failing.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  What's the global experiment?

• 12:35Trevor Noah?

  So, I think for a long time, we were seduced by this idea that the whole world could come together as one. And I think a lot of it was, a lot of it was sold through the lens of trade.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:52Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean? We've always traded, don't get me wrong, we've always traded. But a lot of it was sold through the lens of trade, so like the Euro Union. You know, it's like, ah, and then BRICS, Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa. It's like, ah, these blocks that have all come together. And so Europe at some point was like, we don't have a border, you know? If you are European, you can go everywhere in Europe, yeah, yeah. I think that that is starting to fail because, yeah, I don't think we thought far ahead enough. Or I don't know if we, you know, crossed all the Ts and dots, because we also never did it.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Did you always believe in it?

• 13:24Trevor Noah?

  I was just told it, I was too young to like, believe or not believe.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  I believed in it.

• 13:27Trevor Noah?

  Oh, you did believe in it?

• 13:29Speaker 02

  But I'll tell you, I don't think this is anything new. If anything, I just think we need more perspective. Because if you go into history and just look at how each civilization has a lifespan, it usually ends like this.

• 13:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but that's what I'm, you just now talking about my worry.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 13:52Trevor Noah?

  And you just said you don't have to worry.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't.

• 13:54Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Because, listen.

• 13:55Trevor Noah?

  It's all about me, you just said to me.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Like, all of us end individually.

• 13:59Trevor Noah?

  Let me just tell you what you just didn't right now, this is what Caesar did. I was on a plane, and I said, I'm a little bit worried that this plane feels like it's gonna go down. And Caesar said, well, if you look statistically, most planes crash around this age. So you're right, but you don't have to worry.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, so let me explain, let me finish.

• 14:17Trevor Noah?

  All right, go.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  You're a hundred percent correct. So all civilizations do come to an end, but it has to be that way so that a new civilization may begin.

• 14:23Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Right? You just have the kind of perspective now, at your age, or you forty, forty-one, where you've seen things go from where they were to where they are.

• 14:33Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Right? But it's not to say the world's gonna end tomorrow.

• 14:37Trevor Noah?

  No, I'm not, I don't even think that.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  But you're a hundred percent correct, things are deteriorating at a rapid rate.

• 14:42Trevor Noah?

  All right, so which one do we start with? Which, which worry do we wanna handle for? I'll, I actually would love to start with your son. Yeah, I like it. No, okay.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Because we've been there, so that one can give you what works.

• 14:54Trevor Noah?

  So, before I say anything on it, take me through a little bit about how you feel like as a mom of a son, ten years old.

• 15:03Trevor Noah?

  Like, I understand you saying you worried that he's now gonna get external influences. But why is that a worry and not like necessarily a joy?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Oh, because I, there already have been external influences, right? Just even you two as an example, to the, to the relationship that you guys have with Alak. It is bordering on, on uncle, on father figure and all of that, right? And so I, I think it's the older people, because I get to choose them. You must remember that.

• 15:29Trevor Noah?

  Oh.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  For a very long time, I get to choose who is around him.

• 15:33Trevor Noah?

  I'm honored that you chose me then. I thought I was just like defaulted in, but I'm glad you chose me, thank you.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  And now with that is that he, you know, also he can't, he can't control who is going, who is going to meet type of thing.

• 15:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  So granted, yes, somebody may spark his, his interest and it'll, it'll be in a good way. But along the line, it's gonna be in a bad way. And I just want that he's, to know that he's able to decipher and decide for himself that, ooh, you know, this one is, this one is not the one.

• 15:59Trevor Noah?

  So tell us the story about him meeting this kid. Where did he meet the kid and how did you know the kid was bad? And why do you think Alak was unable to discern between the good and the bad of the kid?

• 16:08Speaker 01

  I prefer a kid was outright rude. Then I'm like, oh, is that it? You know?

• 16:16Speaker 01

  I'm like, okay, kid, let's square up. But this one, it was just like slight discipline issues where if we say, hey, guys, let's all go, we're going now.

• 16:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  He'll stay in the pool, almost like looking at me to see, are you gonna come in the pool type of thing?

• 16:29Trevor Noah?

  Sizing you up.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, sizing, yeah, constantly sizing me up. But then I suppose that's a relationship that he has with his parents, you know, where he's constantly pushing.

• 16:37Trevor Noah?

  The boundaries.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  The boundaries.

• 16:38Trevor Noah?

  Can I just ask, how old was he?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Same ages, Alak, they're actually seven days apart. They discovered this, oh, we're best friends, you know, seven days apart. I'm born this day, he's born that day. So I'm like, oh, okay.

• 16:50Trevor Noah?

  So what, you said get out of the pool?

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:52Trevor Noah?

  He then, he then looked at you?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, like.

• 16:54Trevor Noah?

  And then what did you say?

• 16:55Speaker 01

  I said, buddy, I said, get out of the pool, you know? And he, he kind of like waddled around a little bit as well.

• 17:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, cuz I'm trying to pick check, it's, it's pretty gangster for somebody to be waiting and challenging you.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Looking you in the eyes.

• 17:09Trevor Noah?

  So he doesn't respond?

• 17:10Speaker 01

  No, he doesn't respond.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Maintaining eye contact, that's a G, that's a G right there.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  But you see, this is what I'm saying is that come out and say we're fighting, so I know which arsenal to, to, you know, to activate type of thing. So now when you're doing this.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  That's funny.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Oh, boy, that's funny.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  And then, so now, now I take like a few, because I was also in the pool, so.

• 17:36Trevor Noah?

  Oh, were you in the pool?

• 17:37Speaker 01

  No, I was swimming with him and then I got out. So it's also a case of, kid, please understand, I'm not too lazy to jump back in here. I, I will come and fetch you type of thing, right? And now, now I'm looking at Alak, and he's almost like, he's, he's, he's at the step of the pool. His, his friend is inside the water and his mother's outside. So it was, it was a moment where he was deciding.

• 17:59Trevor Noah?

  It's a psychological tug of war.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Yes. Would he, like, you know?

• 18:03Trevor Noah?

  Does he wanna be good or does he wanna be cool?

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Exactly, you know? So now, so that's how I was like, okay, so it was a few of those things. Maybe we're in the room, we're like, okay, we're going for dinner now. Everybody's ready, this kid, I'm like, hey, let's go, you know? Ten minutes, now we're standing outside, even my partner's like, wait, wait. But now, our child is standing with us. Now we're waiting for a stranger's child, you know, because we just met you.

• 18:25Trevor Noah?

  If, if I may ask, so what heritage is this child? Is this a?

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Same as Alak, everything, guys, when I say everything was identical, yeah.

• 18:33Trevor Noah?

  So you didn't even have like a little African swag you could pull out, just a little, a little something?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  No, no, not at all.

• 18:38Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 18:39Trevor Noah?

  This is actually more dynamic and interesting. I was picturing a white kid and I was like, no, this sounds normal.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  This is a black kid.

• 18:45Trevor Noah?

  Oh, wow.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  When you think about it, Anel's fear, your fear and my fear are the same fear.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Run me through that?

• 18:55Speaker 02

  So, to kind of like break it down in a nutshell, you just gotta ask yourself, are you comfortable with the world raising your child? If you were to set your child up into the wild, in the wilderness, which is the world?

• 19:08Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Are you comfortable with the sort of person that come back as?

• 19:13Speaker 01

  You see, this is why I was.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Which speaks to your question and kind of speaks to my fear as well.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  That's why I was saying that, you know, the job now is to make him so confident and have a high self-esteem and understand who he is that he doesn't have to be taken by those things. But the truth of the matter is, at that age, because remember, we're pre-teen now, we're going into ten. Yeah, at that age, you are, you, you, you are questioning a lot of things. Yes, you know what you were taught, but there are other lessons coming from the outside and they're not always gonna be good.

• 19:41Trevor Noah?

  So I, I don't, I don't, I'll probably butcher some of it, I'm bad with remembering numbers, but. There was a child psychologist who once told me, for boys and girls, it's slightly different. But I believe from like zero to two or three.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:54Trevor Noah?

  It's all mom. It's just all mom, right? And then I think from like three to like seven, ten, and it changes for boys and girls. It's mom and dad in terms of like, just like parental household vibe. But then to your point, they say for boys specifically, once they hit like ten, eleven, twelve, somewhere there. It's all about uncle, as they call it. They said it's all about other men or male figures outside the household.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Could be a coach.

• 20:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Could be a head boy.

• 20:19Trevor Noah?

  Who just like, they're the ones who now.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Captain of the football team.

• 20:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  The numbers are actually zero to seven is mom, seven to fourteen is dad or uncle. And then fourteen to twenty-one is external, but because.

• 20:31Trevor Noah?

  But who's external? You gave us such specific ones for the first two.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  No, but you must remember that because kids are growing up at a rapid pace as well.

• 20:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  For me, and this is not psycho, this is not scientific, whatever. I just think that at ten now.

• 20:45Trevor Noah?

  Oh, it's happening.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  We are already external.

• 20:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's possible.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Because also he is going out a lot more than a normal child would have gone out as a ten-year-old twenty, thirty years ago.

• 20:54Trevor Noah?

  Is there a part of you that wonders if your mom Tai Chi has been enough?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it, it, there is, there is. The fact that he questions it. Because you must remember, some people just will go along with it immediately.

• 21:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  And just to this we go, I can see the thought process in Alaka's mind when he goes.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  And then like, you know, I can, I can, I can see it. I can see it. But also, you know, I've been very careful in, because I don't want my child to be scared of me.

• 21:24Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  At all. I, I don't want that.

• 21:26Trevor Noah?

  Too late. Ha ha. No, I'm joking.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Yes, carry on. I'm so glad that entertained you both of you.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  It's very funny. You're such a mom, you know?

• 21:42Speaker 02

  You know, such a funny line.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  I don't want my child to be scared of me, but I do want him to to know that this this is the line and this is the line, right? And to to respect and you know, to respect me and just to respect other people. And also to respect somebody's decision that they're not gonna go like, you know what? I respect that you wanna do this, but I am not gonna do that. And that's frankly, really all all I want.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  So now, did you explain to Alake, we'll call this anonymous kid X? Why X's behavior is not acceptable in this household?

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 22:17Trevor Noah?

  Did he pick it up, though?

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Yes, he did.

• 22:19Trevor Noah?

  Oh, so he saw this happening?

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Yes, and as we're walking back to our room, he was walking so far ahead because he knew he knew that we want to have, you know, the chat with him. But then I did the most gangster thing, right?

• 22:33Speaker 01

  I didn't say anything because I could see he was like, it was chewing him, it was chewing. I didn't say anything. And I just asked and I said, um, your guy's behavior at the restaurant was really not uh what what we like about you and what we've taught you. He's like, no, I understand. And then he quickly named exactly what he'd done, what.

• 22:50Trevor Noah?

  This is child X?

• 22:51Speaker 01

  No, this is Alake.

• 22:52Trevor Noah?

  Oh, this is Alake, yeah, okay, okay.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And he quickly like, but but then, because we're asking him, because there were a point where they weren't within us seeing what they were doing. But then they came back and they just like disheveled and wet, like they were playing with water somewhere type of thing. Yeah, but he so he explains what happened. I'm not buying the story, but he explains that what happened to my partner. My partner's buying this. I don't know if he was buying it, whatever, guy to guy as well, they had like a little man or man. And then I was like, actually, you handle it, leave me out of it. Fine, go to bed, three in the morning. I wake up, because I want him to tell me the story again as he's just walking up. Going to going to his room.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Going to his room and.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  This is on a holiday, bro.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Put the lights on, everything.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  The lights on, even?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  No, but he doesn't wake up because the lights are on, but I just want that when I do wake him up.

• 23:40Trevor Noah?

  The lights are on?

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the lights are on, so I can see his immediate reaction. I asked him, just give me that story again, run it by me again, because I didn't quite catch it.

• 23:47Trevor Noah?

  I just want to rewind to the point when you said, I don't want my son to be scared of you.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Bruh, we had a resort.

• 23:52Trevor Noah?

  We had a resort.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  And this drill sergeant is turning on the lights at three.

• 23:56Trevor Noah?

  To to interrogate you.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Bruh.

• 23:58Trevor Noah?

  To interrogate you.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Switch on the lights and then I get into bed with him and then I nudge him. I'm like, okay, Baba, wake up. He wakes up, he's like, oh, it's time for us to go ready. I'm like, no, no, just quickly. I didn't quite hear that story.

• 24:11Trevor Noah?

  Wow, I know that, wow.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Run it by me again, what was. And then he ran, he said it and I was comfortable with the answer. And then I was like, but you do understand that this is not behavior that we are accustomed. He's like, no, I get it and I know that it was wrong. And this is why I was apologizing and I'm like, okay, cool. I just wanted to know that the story was the story and there wasn't anything else that I need to address. And I said to him, because you know that some kids don't come. Kids don't come from the same backgrounds and from the same homes type of thing.

• 24:39Trevor Noah?

  In other houses, they leave the lights off and they let you sleep until the morning. That's how other houses do it.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Words.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  But in this house.

• 24:47Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  You know, so, yeah.

• 24:50Speaker 01

  But also, when I did that, because then I got back and then my partner's like, oh, is everything fine? I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. And then, like, then when I woke up in the morning and I told you, he was like, no, no ways. And I'm like, yeah. And I said to him, you know what? I've never been a mother to a ten year old before, so I'm also winging it, type of thing.

• 25:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  I'm also winging it, much like he's never been a ten year old before and with all these emotions and everything that's going on with him. So we're just going to have to figure each other out.

• 25:18Trevor Noah?

  And I have to like negotiate with a ten year old terrorist essentially.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:21Trevor Noah?

  And just hope that their logic coincides with yours. You know, I don't know if I ever told you the story. Um, so Isaac, my youngest brother, right? Him and the middle brother were staying with me in L A. And they'd come to visit me and it was this whole thing and we're there for like Christmas. And they now got into an age where they're big enough that I have to negotiate with them. But they're still young enough that they do crazy shit, right? So one day we're all having, we're having dinner together, we order food and then we, but we plated it. I was like, because I want them to feel civilized, you know what I mean? Because I was like, I'm also the person who eats out the box. But I want, let's do like a family thing. Let's put, take the food out of the, out of the box and put it on a plate like we cooked it. Cool. So we all eat, we all, we put things together.

• 26:06Trevor Noah?

  Everything's great, we're done. And when we're done, it's time to clean up. And I say, guys, help me, let's take everything to the kitchen. And I take like one bowl, one glass.

• 26:19Trevor Noah?

  My brothers stack everything. They stack, stack, stack, stack, stack everything. I'm, I'm like, what are you guys doing? They're like, we're taking it to the, to the kitchen. I was like, guys, guys, guys, take one thing at a time.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  You can come back, eh?

• 26:29Trevor Noah?

  My other brother's like, he's like, ah, but I can do this. I got this. I was like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's not about whether you've got this. Take one thing at a time. You're stacking like everything, you know what I mean? He's like, yeah, but I, I'll be fine. I was like, no, no, no, no. You think you'll be fine until you're not fine. Please just take one thing at a time. He's like, oh, okay. So I go to the kitchen with the one thing. And now you know, we're doing that thing where we're crossing. So one person goes to the table, other person, one person goes to the table. As I'm at the table with the youngest, Isaac, we're chatting. I hear a smash on the other side of the house, glass shattering.

• 27:03Trevor Noah?

  And you know, you know what? It's not even like, I'm like, oh, is there a break in? I know exactly what glass that was. So go to the kitchen. I'm like, yo, bro, what happened? Oh, yeah, the glass dropped. I'm like, the glass didn't just drop. The glass dropped because you took more things than I told you to. Then he's like, oh, yeah, my bad. Then I'm like, no, not your bad. Not your bad. I told you the thing. So now we're having this like, you know, and he's not even fighting. He's being like very polite and everything. And so now the youngest is like running with the stuff. So he's doing one and one, but he's sprinting back and forth. So I'm like, okay, no running.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  So many rules, Trevor.

• 27:34Trevor Noah?

  This is what he says. He's like, jeez, bro. He's like, so many rules. I'm like, yes, these are the rules for how you make sure that the stuff in your kitchen stays around, right?

• 27:42Speaker 02

  And also you don't hurt yourself.

• 27:44Trevor Noah?

  You see? So he's running. Guys, at, at some point I go, yo, I said, walk slowly, take the things one by one. Don't, he's like, yeah, but I run all the time. I'll be good. I was like, yo, just take the things. He's like, but why do I have to do it, Joe? And I'll never forget this. In that moment, he's like, why do I have? And I was like, because I said so. And you know, when like every parent flashed in front, I was like, ah, ah, I have become death.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Became Raven.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  But didn't he say that?

• 28:07Trevor Noah?

  No, he didn't. But I've always said my, my, my youngest brother is probably the, the smartest person we've ever had in our family and the most emotionally intelligent. He sat with it. He did what I said. And he came back, maybe like ten minutes later, you know, now there was like a weird feeling in the house. But he came back to me and he said, he said, hey Trev, he said, um.

• 28:31Trevor Noah?

  I just wanted to apologize for what happened. I didn't mean to offend you. I was like, yeah, I get it. I'm sorry too, you know. And he says, but here's the thing. He's like, the reason I keep asking you why, when you tell me to do things. It's not because I want to undermine who you are as a person. He's like, it's because I don't understand why you're doing things the way you do them. So if I just do them the way you do them, I never really believe in it. I'm just doing it because I've learned it as a rote identity. He's like, but if I actually learn why you do it the way you do, then maybe I can adopt it as my own. And then if I'm challenged by somebody or something one day, I'll know why I do it. So the reason I ask you why is not because I'm challenging you as my big brother. It's just because I really want to understand why you actually do it, because I don't want to be a robot. I want to be a human being who believes in my actions. So you know, you know what it made me realize is like.

• 29:17Trevor Noah?

  I realized that every parent and every adult figure in a child's life will have that frustration. You're you're bound to be frustrated because you are proposing every idea through the lens of logic and experience. But your kids, rightfully, I think in many ways, are also here to test what those boundaries are. If every child, even us, think of us, the three of us sitting here and everyone who's listening. If you did everything the way your parents did it, half the time you wouldn't be where you are. You wouldn't have discovered a new way to work, a new type of job, a new career, a new country, a new language, a new sport. A new religion, a new style of dressing. A new relationship.

• 29:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like you literally have to break what they've taught you to make something new. And the difficulty, as you say, is we're all winging it. We don't, we don't know what will or won't work. It's just in these moments where you go, look, when we say get out of the pool, get out of the pool. But it's, it's, it's a tough one because it's like, do you have a. Because I've never had a friend who's a mom. Do you get what I'm saying? Like a friend friend.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  Thanks, Dr.

• 30:26Trevor Noah?

  No, what.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  I'm also like, Danny, there's a way to break up with a friend.

• 30:30Trevor Noah?

  No, what I'm saying is, no, what I'm saying is, so, so what I, what I'm saying is, I, I've never been in the position where I can say this to you and, and ask you honestly, like, do you have a, it's not like you can have a fixed number, but do you have a number of how much you're willing to tolerate his boundary pushing because you think it might be what creates something bigger and more beautiful than you've ever considered?

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Definitely, but the thing that we parents are doing now is you, you, we, we're very willing to question the school that he's at because there's too much writing and the kids aren't writing anymore. Let's take him to a school that just does robotics and everything is computerized. It's, it's all, all, all sporting, right? Oh, my child is so good at this. Maybe I should take him out of the school because he's gonna play for the spring park, so he's gonna play for the proteas and all of that. But I think when it comes to, you know, just discipline and emotion and all of that, as parents, we very much holding on to, you know, what you believe at that, at that moment in time. It's very difficult and I tried very hard with, with my son where I'm like, okay, level with me, let, let, talk to me, you know, explain to me, what was your thinking when you were doing that?

• 31:33Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Right? So that I can understand because like you said, I'm forty and he's ten and we really, we, we, we, different times, right? You know, different, different times, different ways of parenting as well. And I didn't have that with my mom or my dad. It was what they say, sure, you know?

• 31:49Trevor Noah?

  That's the rule.

• 31:50Speaker 01

  That was the rule. It's also because it's like, I'm paying for the house, I'm paying for the, na, na, na, so, you know, as long as you live under this household.

• 31:56Trevor Noah?

  Under this roof.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Under this roof, you are going to, you know, type of thing. And I don't want that with the house, you know? Simple things as well, like people ask me, why do you knock when you go into your son's room? You know, it's your house. I'm like, yes, but it's his room.

• 32:08Trevor Noah?

  Did you knock at three AM? You didn't. That was a, that was a surprise.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  And also that's a hotel.

• 32:13Trevor Noah?

  That's a, oh, okay. Oh, nice. Nice. Hey, I see. You know when law enforcement finds all these loopholes? Oh, we didn't need a search warrant because it wasn't your home.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  In our business, the visitor was sanctioned by the Minister of Tourism, right? Give me keys to the city.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  So, um, so like, why do you knock? And I'm like, because I want him to knock when he's coming into my room, right?

• 32:38Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You wanna, you wanna model the behaviors.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  And here's the thing is that I want to show you that I respect your privacy, because everybody else in the world must also respect your privacy.

• 32:47Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Because if I, how can I say I'm allowed to not to respect your privacy, but everybody else must respect your privacy, type of thing.

• 32:55Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  So I, I basically treat him the way I want the world to treat him, so that he can know, he's like, no, back at home, this is how I'm treated. And you're not treating me the way that I'm treated at home, where I'm like, so this is not gonna fly. And actually, that's all you want your kids to be about.

• 33:11Trevor Noah?

  We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break.

• 33:16Trevor Noah?

  Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long-form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house, because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now. But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane wifi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you

• 34:01Trevor Noah?

  based on what you already watched. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So, if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. Every day, it feels like I'm on a new scavenger hunt. But not the fun kind. I'm constantly switching between countless apps just to try and find the information that I need.

• 34:45Trevor Noah?

  Like the other day, I was trying to find the address of a restaurant someone had sent me. Simple enough, right? But then, this is what happened. I opened my messages. I saw a video somebody sent me of a parrot singing opera. And then, the next thing I know, I'm watching an interview with a woman who trains parrots. Twenty minutes later, I know the average lifespan of a macaw. I've forgotten where I'm supposed to have dinner, and I'm wondering whether I have what it takes to raise a bird that might outlive me. Enough with digital rabbit holes. Thankfully, my Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini Intelligence. Helpful suggestions pop up right in the text thread when I'm making plans, proactively pulling up restaurant details, calendar availability, or live-flight info. The info you need, right when you need it.

• 35:30Trevor Noah?

  Learn more about what the Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages for users 18 and older. Make sure to check responses. Therapy is one of those things lots of people talk themselves out of without even realizing it. Like, it's too expensive or it's too overwhelming figuring out even where you're gonna start. But Rula is one way to make that first step feel a lot more doable, offering accessible, affordable therapy that fits your needs. Sign up in just a few minutes and get matched with a therapist who fits what you're looking for. Need to talk to someone quickly? Appointments are often available as soon as the next day. And with insurance,

• 36:13Trevor Noah?

  sessions average around a $15 copay. You can also see estimated costs upfront, so there's a lot more clarity going in. And in terms of outcomes, 93% of Rula patients report symptom improvement. If therapy's been sitting in the back of your mind, Rula is a pretty simple way to take that first step. So, turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com. That's R-U-L-A dot com to find a therapist the easy way.

• 36:49Trevor Noah?

  Did you ever have a bad influence? Because I know you weren't the bad influence.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so bad influences are everywhere.

• 36:55Trevor Noah?

  No, but I'm saying as a kid, like, did you have, did you have a friend? Where they were like your bad influ-, because I was.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  The bad influence.

• 37:05Trevor Noah?

  In many ways, yes, I will say, but I also think I had many friends. I think we were renegades together, to be honest.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Not in my formative years, no.

• 37:14Trevor Noah?

  No, you didn't?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 37:15Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  Because majority of the people that were around me were handpicked by my parents.

• 37:20Trevor Noah?

  Ah, we come back to the cousins.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  Exactly. Even my friends, it was really because my parents are friends with these people. And then they'd be like, we're going to so and so's house, and then, hey, okay, Duwe is my friend. I didn't, like, it's not like I sought out Duwe to be my friend. It didn't work like that. But here's my thinking and the approach, and obviously I think you're doing it well. I think all you can do, look at it like coding. You just introduce the fundamentals, right? To your child. And then tell him.

• 37:49Trevor Noah?

  Do my computer code coding.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:50Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  But even with human beings, because essentially there's a system anyway.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Because we're robots.

• 37:55Trevor Noah?

  Because we're AI. Aren't we all? Aren't we, aren't we all?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  So you do see fundamentals?

• 38:00Speaker 01

  I agree with you.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  This program is tripping.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  I'll delete.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Right, so, once you've got the fundamentals in place, and they understand them, and obviously you guys are in agreement with the fundamentals are. Then you can go to like intermediate programming and tell them, okay, well, now, with these fundamentals that you fully understand.

• 38:21Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  What do you think the right thing to do in this situation is? And then he will tell you, and then you go, well, actually, that is the wrong thing to do, Alaka, because if you do that. For example, Isaac, I know you're used to running, but there's a possibility you may slip and you can't get a glass, and you will get impaled by this glass. That's why it's rather safer for you to just walk, right? By running, yeah, you save a little bit of time, but we're in no rush. Then he's like, okay, cool.

• 38:47Trevor Noah?

  You're very logical.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  But that's how life is. What else now?

• 38:51Trevor Noah?

  You, you, you sound like you've never been a child.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  No, but listen to me.

• 38:54Trevor Noah?

  Guys, I knew, let me tell you something.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:57Trevor Noah?

  When I was opening the TV in the living room.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  As in opening it like?

• 39:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, when I was unscrewing the whole thing.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:04Trevor Noah?

  Logically, I knew everything.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  I unscrewed the TV too, but I had logic for it.

• 39:08Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  I wanted to see how the TV works.

• 39:11Trevor Noah?

  Oh, same with me.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  And as a result, I was able to fix things at home. I was a guy, like dude, maybe by like eight, I was a handyman at home. And I, my dad understood, I couldn't have been the handyman unless I broke my toy. But I'll tell you what, when things were wrong and I fixed it without him paying a cent, boy, was he glad I broke that toy.

• 39:32Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  You see?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  So that's immediate.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:35Trevor Noah?

  You see what?

• 39:35Speaker 02

  Now, here's the thing.

• 39:36Trevor Noah?

  Now, that's, that's funny. It comes, it comes back around to like, is there a reward on the other side?

• 39:40Speaker 02

  There's always a reward. I'm told I was a highly inquisitive child. Ah, I guess I still am even as an adult, right? And the thing with questions is, you're just gathering data points. That's all you do. You're gathering, you're gathering data points. And you're gonna later use those data points that you've collected and go, oh, okay. Well, when I asked Auntie Anna this, she told me this is this and that. So maybe I should go this way. There's a lot of things I never got to experience and still have no inkling. I don't even wanna experience them. But I've learnt major lessons from other people and their experience of those things. So when you now withhold those answers and you just.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Cause I said so.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  You nip it in the bud by saying, yes, because I said so. You are starving Isaac of the data points he needs.

• 40:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  Not for him to be able to come up with the decision, which will then obviously make sense to him.

• 40:28Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, the wrong or the right. All right, well, if you need, you know, outside models, real, role models, you let us know.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  No, no, I'm, I'm covered.

• 40:36Trevor Noah?

  You must, you must let us know.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 40:38Trevor Noah?

  But Mina, I'm, I'm probably gonna say, even at this age, I will bring a little bit of bad influence, but always respectful.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 40:46Trevor Noah?

  One thing my teachers always said, Trevor's very respectful.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  But he's very troublesome.

• 40:50Trevor Noah?

  He's very disruptive in class, but very respectful. And oftentimes does not apply himself, but very respectful. There was no disrespect in what I was doing. Do you know what I mean?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 41:03Trevor Noah?

  Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. I was the one who put the firecracker in the toilet, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. That is correct, ma'am.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Why, Trevor? Why?

• 41:14Trevor Noah?

  Because we wanted to see what happens.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  The thing about being a child being inquisitive as well is that it could be on the bad side of things.

• 41:21Trevor Noah?

  Yes, that's what I see your worry as well, yeah.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Because people always treat like being inquisitive like, oh, such a wonderful thing. It's a great trait. He's so inquisitive. But if he's inquisitive as to what's going to happen if at age nine, he takes the car.

• 41:32Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Right? That's not a good thing.

• 41:34Trevor Noah?

  I did that.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  I thought about that.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  About what?

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Taking the car.

• 41:38Trevor Noah?

  Why didn't you do it?

• 41:40Speaker 02

  So, our driveway was like a bit of an incline. So, when I was leaving, I would have been fine. But then when I was driving back, the car obviously would have had like hummed a little bit. Then I thought, what if my dad thinks the car's getting stolen and then he shoots me? Then I was like, hmm, I would rather not take this car.

• 42:01Trevor Noah?

  The sentence would end like that.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 42:04Trevor Noah?

  I didn't think the sentence would end like that.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:06Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  I thought grounded, like grounded or get a.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  No, I thought, I thought, I thought, you know, what's the worst thing that could happen? He could think the car's getting stolen and shoot me.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Okay, but now we mustn't stick on this one because everybody's got to worry. Now we're gonna spend the next hour discussing only my worries.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  But our worries are all the same. We solve your worries and solve all worries.

• 42:25Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so, okay, then let's, let's.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  But wait, she raised a very good point. We just glossed over it. It actually is the answer.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  What?

• 42:32Speaker 02

  She spoke about his self-confidence, right, and belief in himself.

• 42:36Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  That actually is the answer to everything.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Because if, if, for example.

• 42:43Trevor Noah?

  I don't think it is, but finish, finish what you're saying.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Okay, it's the answer to most things. It's obviously not the answer to everything. If his self-confidence is strong enough, right? Peer pressure will never be an issue. And we know, for example, that Alak is very smart already.

• 42:56Trevor Noah?

  He's super smart.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  So he knows what right and wrong is. What usually sways people from wrong is the external influence. If he's strong enough and believes in himself, he can say, hey dude, I hear what you're saying, but that's not how ours raised, that's not how we roll. And so already he's kind of insulated from the external influences of the world. Not to say he'll never like go wrong, but he's unlikely to go as wrong as other people who are just amoebas and they go with the flow. A lot of people end up in trouble. They're like, yo dude, I don't even wanna be here. I told you guys, let's not go there.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Now you're sharing a cell.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  You see?

• 43:29Trevor Noah?

  So I hear what you're saying. One caveat I'd like to throw into this and one counter argument is. If we live in a world where everyone completely believes in themselves, I think we have a little less social cohesion. We should never take for granted how powerful peer pressure is in society.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:48Trevor Noah?

  So when you're on the road and you see that you could drive in the emergency lane and just get ahead of everyone, peer pressure is the only thing keeping you back. Yeah, you might be like, oh, the police. No, no, no. But beyond that, there's an element of knowing that every other road user is in some way, shape or form going to be against you. And you're like, I'm not gonna do it. When you're standing in a line at an airport or anywhere else and you see that you could cut and you could get ahead, peer pressure is the only thing like stopping you from doing. You're not gonna get arrested. Do you get what I'm saying? I think there's a, there's a weird balance and we don't know what the knobs perfectly are.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  But the world knows.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  But the way you look.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  It's interesting that you say that.

• 44:24Trevor Noah?

  No, can I say?

• 44:25Speaker 02

  We don't know what the balance is, but the world always fine tunes you.

• 44:28Trevor Noah?

  So, okay, my argument is this, and this may sound a little anarchist, but it's not. But like, I don't believe we know and I don't think there is a right because I think every piece needs to exist. So like, on the one hand, you need like a renegade to be like a Steve Jobs, let's say, where he goes, no, we're gonna do this. And people are like, you can't do it. And he's like, we're gonna do it. And then he does it. And then now everyone's like, oh, yeah, this is how it should have been. But then there's also some renegades who are like Jeffrey Dahmer. Jeffrey Dahmer didn't suffer from peer pressure, I'm assuming. I don't think he was like, hmm, what are my friends gonna say? He did his thing. He did his thing.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  My friends wouldn't.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Well, so.

• 45:00Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no. So all.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  So here's the thing.

• 45:02Trevor Noah?

  So all I'm saying, all I'm saying is, I, I believe that there isn't one fixed way or not way. I think a, a system will always like find entropy. It will always find the place where it exists for the best of what it is trying to do. But I, I think you can create a child, or you think you, you can try your best to create a child, who does not care about what anyone else says. And I think those types of people are assholes in the world as well, because they don't care about what anyone else says. And then there are some people who care too much about what everyone else says, and then they are at the whims of, of the crowd.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  So Joe Budden's got a line, right?

• 45:38Trevor Noah?

  Joe Biden?

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Joe Budden, the rapper.

• 45:40Trevor Noah?

  I was like, that's your name? I was like, wow, this guy's about to quote Joe Biden. Okay. I was like, damn, I don't think I've ever heard anyone quote Joe Biden.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  This is a rap line also, long before he did podcasts. And he speaks about mama raised me proper, the streets just molded me. The streets coated me, made me a better pedigree. Then he goes on to say, things are complicated like Avril Lavigne said it be, but that's besides the point.

• 46:00Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Basically, when you go out into the world, the world will either affirm you or it will challenge you.

• 46:07Trevor Noah?

  Cool.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Right? So with your fortitude, you go there and the world will be like, no, my friend, that's not how this works. And very quickly, if you're a smart person, you will then learn, oh, damn, I'm wrong about this. However.

• 46:20Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  If you are correct about your ways, the world will affirm you. And then you'll see, it's okay, this actually works. And that's how people end up rising to a certain point.

• 46:30Trevor Noah?

  So, okay, it's actually funny you you say that. Cause I think that's that's a perfect segue to my worry.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 46:38Trevor Noah?

  I agree. That the world will affirm you or challenge you.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 46:44Trevor Noah?

  Right? But I don't think that that is based in absolute truths. So sometimes you will be affirmed or challenged based on the circumstance of the situation.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  True.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Or what people can benefit from affirming you or challenging you.

• 46:58Trevor Noah?

  Exactly, exactly. So, so now let's go to my worry. Um, the reason I say I think the global slash liberal slash whatever experiment has failed is because there was a time when many politicians around the world started to believe, and I'm sure there was another time when this happened with trading in general, but they said, you know what? We could be connecting the world in interesting and different ways. You know, you could, you could make something in China or you could make it in any country where it's developing really. And that means the country where they're selling it to, they can focus on different types of labor. They can be more specialized, they can work in offices, they can do this. So they'll actually be selling a different product to the world. Their product might be a service, it might be something digital.

• 47:40Trevor Noah?

  And then the people who are using that, they might buy something else and they might, but we're all connected.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  It's gonna be a chain of wonderful things.

• 47:46Trevor Noah?

  And we're all, and it's, it's the circle of life, you know what I mean? It's like this beautiful world where money's flowing from one place to the next. And now, and Caesar, you're the economics guy, so I'm sure you can speak to it deeper than I can. But like, I feel like what happened was, first and foremost, the money dammed up in a way that no one really predicted. So the money didn't move around the world. It didn't stay in Bangladesh and Vietnam and all these places where the workers are making it. It very quickly left those places. Yes. And went into bank accounts in certain parts of the world, right? The people working even at these companies in those parts of the world. It doesn't matter how big these corporations are. But one of the things I find particularly interesting is how.

• 48:30Trevor Noah?

  Like, we've accepted this as normal, and maybe we won't for a while. Where companies can hire people to help them make profits. Once they've achieved that profit, they can fire all of those people.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  And hire people for the next.

• 48:43Trevor Noah?

  To help them make more profits, right? So this is the second part of it, why I think it's failing. I think we were never fully prepared to communicate with everyone, everywhere, all the time, without understanding the nuances and the complexities that come with everybody's understanding of the world. In the, you know, in the same way that we're worried about like what we say to aliens.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  When they arrive.

• 49:07Trevor Noah?

  Not even when they arrive. You've seen, we've sent, we've sent like things to space.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Signals, like.

• 49:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, and we've sent capsules. And then they'll choose, they go, we've put some Mozart, some Beethoven, we've sent. But there's also like crazy shit we've sent. We've sent like a random like rock and roll song. That could sound like a war anthem, I don't know. Or maybe Mozart sounds like war to an alien, I don't know, right? You really don't know.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  You when you said we've sent crazy shit. The thing that came into my mind wasn't, wasn't that, I was like, oh.

• 49:35Trevor Noah?

  No, but we've also sent like plants and seeds and we've tried to, we've tried to send what we think encapsulates the human race, is what we've done.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Oh, that is a very, very risky thing.

• 49:48Trevor Noah?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  What does encapsulate the human race?

• 49:51Trevor Noah?

  That's exactly my point. And so.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Maybe each country should send something.

• 49:55Trevor Noah?

  Even then, and so now I'm saying. Social media as a whole, the the whole connected idea of it, forget like actual social media.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:03Trevor Noah?

  I just don't think we ever prepared for it. We never prepared for a message to cross borders and cultures in the way that it does. It may connect us in moments, but I think it's it's ripping us apart at the seams in more places than we ever thought. And so I think, that's why I think the whole thing is falling apart. I think in South Africa.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 50:21Trevor Noah?

  Where we are at right now, I think we're going to see only more xenophobia. We're going to see more people not wanting immigrants to come into the country. And in many people's defense, by the way, not just in South Africa, in the US, in Europe, et cetera.

• 50:36Trevor Noah?

  If we use the binary, we can be very quick to say, these people are hateful. It's very easy to do that, right? But the underlying issue is true in many places.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  But I think you've got a global view because you are a global person, right? We can scale this down and realize that it's always been like that. It's just that now we are aware that it's happening everywhere else as well. Let me take it back to South Africa.

• 50:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  A person who was raised in the hood and a person who was raised in the rural areas, they are aliens to each other.

• 51:06Trevor Noah?

  Okay, so the hood versus the village, essentially.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Versus the village, there we go. But then even in America, somebody was raised in the southern, I'm a southern belle.

• 51:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Do you know what I'm saying? As opposed to somebody who was raised in New York, those people are also quite alien to each other, right? And that's, now that is a country. I just feel that because you've been everywhere in the world, it is a lot more heightened for you that you think that.

• 51:27Trevor Noah?

  No, no, so this, but this is what I mean. I mean that the experiment was, it felt like it was working for a moment.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  So here's the thing. I mean, I can't speak to the second part of your thought process, because that's more sociology. But the first one, which is economics, that makes sense. And even if you look at any economic textbook, it really just, it dictates that things will be that way. Because capital by its very nature is monopolistic, right?

• 51:52Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  There are four factors of production, we are told. We're told it's capital, labor, entrepreneurship, and then I suppose land. But really, when you think about it, there's only one factor of production. It's capital. Because with capital, you can buy the other three.

• 52:08Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  That's why the effect has been that money has always pulled back to.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  To money.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Yes. Because once you've made the money, you realize, okay, I no longer need the labor now. I can build A I and that will substitute the need for labor. Right? Okay, I no longer need entrepreneurship. I can go to India and hire a C E O. Okay, I no longer need, for example, land, right? These are all the things. Capital will always supersede everything in a capitalistic society. As I was called, capitalistic. You don't call it laboristic.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Or landenistic. I wanna live in a landenistic country.

• 52:44Trevor Noah?

  No, but, but, so I agree with you. And what I'm saying, though, is this was an experiment. We, remember, we're always conducting an experiment. Like you said with your son, you're winging it. We're also winging it. I think this is something we should always acknowledge as people. And I think not enough politicians do and not enough leaders do. They make it seem like we know. So I've seen people who talk about like socialism. They know. People talk about communism. They know. People talk about capitalism. They know. But I'm like, guys, you don't know. We're all winging it with as much information as we have. We're gathering data points, as you say, right? So there was no communism until there was. There was no socialism until there was. There was no capitalism until there was, right? What I'm saying is, this experiment that we're conducting now, I worry that it's failing.

• 53:26Trevor Noah?

  But I worry that it's failing because the reason I worry about it failing is because of the ramifications on the other side. So.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  But that's how revolutions come.

• 53:35Trevor Noah?

  This is my point.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  The reset. Everything has a reset.

• 53:38Trevor Noah?

  You see, this is my point. I don't like your tone when you say these things, Seesway. You say very, no, no, no, but he says it in a very, your tone is positive. But the message you're giving is like, you're like, yes, well, that's a revolution.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Because that's what happens. It's a matter of fact.

• 53:52Trevor Noah?

  And everyone's gonna die. Yes, but your tone, uh, you must deliver in like, well, that's a reset.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  You are worried that you're living on the cusp.

• 53:59Trevor Noah?

  Yes, completely.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  You want to miss the revolution.

• 54:02Trevor Noah?

  We, not me.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  Yes, all of us are.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  You wanna miss the revolution. You wanna be here for it.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  No.

• 54:07Trevor Noah?

  I don't wanna be here for it.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  Trevor doesn't wanna be.

• 54:09Trevor Noah?

  Do you wanna be here for a revolution?

• 54:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I thi- I think in many parts, we.

• 54:13Trevor Noah?

  You want to be here for the revolution.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  No, I don't want to be here for revolution.

• 54:16Trevor Noah?

  Let me tell you something about revolution, yeah?

• 54:17Speaker 02

  It's disruptive.

• 54:18Trevor Noah?

  And no- and nobody knows what comes out on the other side.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:20Trevor Noah?

  You, you think I have power. A revolution completely disrupts power. You think, oh, but I'm of the people. Revolutions also squash the people.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:28Trevor Noah?

  And the outcome of a revolution is not predictable, right?

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Wasn't Covid a revolution?

• 54:33Trevor Noah?

  Oh, it wasn't a revolution.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  But Travis is right in that it's obviously, it depends what sort of person you are, right? It's better to be living in very calm times and steady times.

• 54:42Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  But you learn a lot if you're living on the cusp, because that's where majority of change takes place.

• 54:48Trevor Noah?

  I mean, this is true.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:49Trevor Noah?

  But one of-

• 54:49Speaker 02

  If you look at us, we've gone, we literally went from analog to digital. That alone will blow many people's minds.

• 54:55Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  Crazy, the things that we've seen. We went from GAT recorders to CDs to cassette tapes to VHS.

• 55:04Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  To see, yo, bro.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  That, you know, maybe, I think we've lived the revolutions. I think you guys think I'm, I'm assuming like the violent ones, you know?

• 55:12Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, no, no. I, I just mean.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  You mean a reset.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Okay. So you're saying I'm talking about a reset and not a revolution?

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  You're gonna have to then give me the difference between those.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  A revolution, you know.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Blood will be spilled.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Not necessarily blood will be spilled, but you wouldn't be sitting here talking about Covid as a revolution. You'd know for a fact.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Then give me an example of a revolution.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Cuban Revolution, yes. Well, Arab Spring somewhat, but regimes change.

• 55:37Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Presidents-

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Okay, violent, then.

• 55:40Speaker 02

  Not necessarily.

• 55:40Trevor Noah?

  Not necessarily, they can be peaceful.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Like in nineteen ninety-four, South Africa had a revolution, but a peaceful revolution.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  More or less.

• 55:48Trevor Noah?

  More or less. No, okay. This is, so this is what I mean. I'll, I'll just throw them out at you and, and, and maybe you'll understand the picture that I'm seeing. Let's say in America, right? It was interesting to see how even amongst themselves, the Trump mega crowd.

• 56:11Trevor Noah?

  Is experiencing like a fraying connection between the people. Yeah. In a, in a microcosm. Hmm. You look at the Trump party, I don't call it the Republican Party, it's the Trump party. You would think within that world, everyone would just be like, yeah, we know what we're doing, we're doing it, right? Look at the thing that happened with Elon Musk and the H1 B1 visas. Elon Musk is rolling with Donald Trump, they're like, hey, we know what we're doing, we're planning this new world order. Elon's like, hey man, I have a new best friend, I paid two hundred fifty million dollars for him, so I wanna hang out with him all the time. Trump is like.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Trump needs his mom to come to me at three in the morning.

• 56:44Trevor Noah?

  Exactly. Trump is like, you're a bit of a loser, I wanted your money, go away. That's, cause you can see Trump knows cool and not cool. Yeah. Like you saw when Trump was sitting with Obama.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 56:53Trevor Noah?

  Say what you want, but Trump was like, Trump was like, this guy's cool.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 56:56Trevor Noah?

  You could see he was like, he, all those fancy things of his.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Trying to make him laugh, he's like, ooh.

• 57:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and he was making him laugh.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:02Trevor Noah?

  Trump was like, this guy's cool.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  I need this guy's approval.

• 57:05Trevor Noah?

  That, exactly, cause Trump knows cool, say what you want about him. Say what you want about. Say what you want about him. So, when, when I look at the Elon Musk thing, it's amazing to see how quickly what I'm talking about is affecting everyone. Because Elon Musk and his people go, alright, now we know what we're doing. Trump fans and supporters are like, actually no, like Steve Bannon goes, no, no, no, hey, I actually don't like this agenda, why are we hiring these people from India and from these places to come and work on these companies? Elon's like, cause we need them. Then Steve Bannon's like, no, we don't need them. We need them because we haven't created a world where Americans are the ones that are needed. Then the tech guys say, yes, but like Vivek Ramswami and Elon Musk, they say, yeah, but Americans are not trained enough and they're not smart enough. Then these guys are like, oh, you're saying Americans are stupid.

• 57:51Trevor Noah?

  Is that what you're saying? They're like, eh, no, and then another guy's like, yes, I am saying that. Then he's like, why don't we train Americans? Then he's like, no, because it's, it's, it's not supposed to work like that. And then even within that little confine, you see the thing falling apart. The promise. Hasn't been delivered, right? Because white Americans were told, stop your factory things.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  We got this.

• 58:12Trevor Noah?

  Don't worry. So what's gonna happen is you're gonna just move forward, right? And your company, you're gonna wear a suit and tie? And you're gonna have a different job and you're gonna get great money. Worked for a moment, then companies, as you say, capital does what capital does. Companies were like, we could actually make more money with less. And why are we paying American workers? When we could be paying people from India or Bangladesh less? And even if they come into the country, we can force them to work a ton of hours. Because what are they gonna say? No?

• 58:41Speaker 02

  And they'll be a lot more appreciative of the dollar.

• 58:43Trevor Noah?

  Exactly, because they have a visa. Exactly. And now, even within that tiny world, you see the experiment failing. And now there Steve Bannon comes and says, Elon Musk is a white South African who is racist and born from apartheid? We cannot allow him into the White House. Now, people watching this are like,

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Wait, uh.

• 59:01Trevor Noah?

  Wait, Steve Bannon is saying this guy's racist? No one knows what to do with it.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:06Trevor Noah?

  No one knows what to do with it. But that's just one example. Uh, then you look at South Africa and how South Africans are now going like, actually, actually, no, no, no. We're not trying to help Africa. No, no, we're just trying to do our own thing. Then you look at Europe. Europe's like, no, no, no, no, no. Close, close here. Germany, they're like, hey, man, this whole immigrant thing, actually, no, no, no, no, no, we're not, we're not. Then you look at like banking, you look at hiring, look at A I itself. We are on a fast track to people turning around and saying, wait a minute. If A I is doing every job, who's doing a job? And if nobody's doing a job, who's buying things? And if nobody's buying things, what are we doing?

• 59:40Speaker 02

  And this is why it's so interesting. Because all of it actually just boils down to economics and living conditions. Everything you've just highlighted is not a problem if people are comfortable.

• 59:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, completely.

• 59:52Speaker 02

  If we're all comfortable, I love A I, because who wants to work?

• 59:56Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 59:56Speaker 02

  Let A I work. If you're all comfortable and you're telling me you're gonna bring in some Indian guy, hey, by all means, buddy, do the thing there. I'll suggest.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. But you, okay, that's.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  The problem is, now, when we starving, they were like, hey, man, these foreigners are taking our jobs. That's the problem.

• 1:00:11Trevor Noah?

  That is the problem.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  Whereas if we were comfortable, we'd be like, hey, buddy, hey, I've got something here for you. You wanna do this? Because I don't wanna do it. That's essentially the issue.

• 1:00:20Trevor Noah?

  And that's what I'm saying has failed.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Trevor Noah?

  I'm saying the thing that was sold to people was prosperity for all. That has not happened, whether it's South Africa, whether it's the United States, whether it's parts of Europe.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  And it can never happen.

• 1:00:31Trevor Noah?

  Wait, you think it can't happen?

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  Never. Prosperity for all.

• 1:00:34Trevor Noah?

  It can.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  No, it cannot.

• 1:00:35Trevor Noah?

  No, but it can.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Because this is what I want to say. Please let me say this, that even when we are, like you're saying, the Trump party, not the Republicans, even when we're all for one thing and we have one ideal, we're still going to disagree within that, right?

• 1:00:48Trevor Noah?

  But not fundamentally.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:00:51Trevor Noah?

  No, they argue, people are now disagreeing, I hear you.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Look at, look at South Africa, look at the ANC.

• 1:00:56Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Where we were all about one thing. Even when we get along, guys, even in a group of friends. You know that WhatsApp group where there was nine of you and the next thing, in that nine, six of you slipped to the side. Do you know what I'm saying? It's, that is human nature.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  So Anel is right, there will always be disagreements. What I'm saying is, when things are okay, the disagreements are inconsequential.

• 1:01:17Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  So, there can never be prosperity for all. Because in order for people to prosper, there needs to be productivity. And the productivity needs to come from somewhere. Now, what happens is, you do get certain instances where there are more resources than there are those that to beat the resources. What it means is, the model seems like it's working for a lot longer. But it's really not. The model is always deteriorating. That's just the nature of the model. You could be living in the Garden of Eden, but the more you procreate, the more you're gonna run out of fruit in that garden.

• 1:01:52Trevor Noah?

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• 1:02:36Trevor Noah?

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• 1:03:20Trevor Noah?

  I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane Wi-Fi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watched. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. Then it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going.

• 1:04:01Trevor Noah?

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• 1:04:51Trevor Noah?

  This is where I disagree. I think a lot of the scarcity that we think is real in the world isn't real. That's the first thing. And I think a lot of it is created by institutions and companies that need you to consume. So for instance, a simple example is your phone, right? Everyone has the new iPhone until Apple releases the next iPhone. It is literally even the day before launch, you have the latest iPhone. And then one day later, you now have an old iPhone, right?

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  So you're right, the issue is not scarcity. It's about the distribution of resources.

• 1:05:24Trevor Noah?

  That's but that's why.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  That's what the problem is.

• 1:05:25Trevor Noah?

  What I'm saying is, I agree completely. I'm saying we are, and we have been, and look, there may not be a perfect world for this. But I think there's also a lot of artificial scarcity and a lot of artificial.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  I agree with you.

• 1:05:39Trevor Noah?

  Distribution that has now.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  And it's at an all time high.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you.

• 1:05:43Trevor Noah?

  The perfect example is water. Guys, I don't understand how we live in a world where it's where water is owned by companies. And we are all gonna have to buy water from corporations. Guys, everywhere in the world.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  I read that about LA, that a couple owns over water in LA.

• 1:05:57Trevor Noah?

  It's a farming farming family, they own like water. You're like, how do you own water?

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  Who did you buy it from?

• 1:06:02Trevor Noah?

  But that's my point.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Who owned it before you?

• 1:06:04Trevor Noah?

  But that's my point, because the water goes under my house as well. How come I can't stop the water and do you see what I'm saying? So now, Caesar, I get what you're saying economically. But I'm saying that's why all of these things, I worry that we are going to hit too many at the same time.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:06:19Trevor Noah?

  And that thing is going to be.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:06:23Trevor Noah?

  It will be, it will be, I don't know if it will be a revolution. But I think we are, we are on track unless there's some sort of correction somewhere. We are only on track for a like mass ending correction type thing, revolution, whatever you want to call it. I cannot see another way.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  Well, luckily, all of this has been thought of. Even the thing you just mentioned now about water going under your house.

• 1:06:48Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  So, for example, the Romans, because they came out with land ownership. They kind of, they basically had a definition of what land ownership is, right? It will be, I guess, the square meters or whatever the measurements will be.

• 1:07:02Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  And then it will be everything on and above the ground belongs to you. Everything below the ground that belongs to the state.

• 1:07:10Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  That's, for example, what our mining laws are based on in South Africa, right? So if the water is flowing on top of your ground, that's your water. But the underground water is not yours.

• 1:07:20Trevor Noah?

  Yes, but the problem is the state.

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  Now, is it fair? It's obviously not fair, but I hear you.

• 1:07:25Trevor Noah?

  Yes, but, and what is a state? A state is a collection of people. It's a, it's a, it's a fiction that we've all agreed to. So now the problem is, when the states sell it to private people, where do we end up? In revolution. So, Caesar, by the way, Caesar is not helping me at all because he's affirming everything I'm saying.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:40Trevor Noah?

  Imagine if we were doing that with you.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  But you know what he's saying? He's saying it was supposed to happen that way. But you guys also did that with me, that it's supposed to happen that way.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  It's like Nas' second album, It Was Written.

• 1:07:51Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Thank you, Joe Budden.

• 1:07:54Trevor Noah?

  But here's what, remember what my original statement was.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:07:57Trevor Noah?

  I'm worried that the experiment is failing. Because remember, what we're also doing as humans is we're constantly trying to undermine the natural order of things. We do it with our health, right? So back in the day, your shoulder, you would be gone.

• 1:08:13Trevor Noah?

  Now you may not be gone.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:15Trevor Noah?

  Right? And I think this is something that's important to understand is that one of the main things that makes humans, humans is that we've challenged the very fundamental order and nature of life and the world.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  And we find it under progression.

• 1:08:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but, but we fight it. So we go, actually, maybe you shouldn't die of an infection. And then you go, actually.

• 1:08:35Speaker 01

  Maybe you shouldn't die at all. Remember the guy you interviewed?

• 1:08:37Trevor Noah?

  Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Maybe you shouldn't die at all, yeah?

• 1:08:39Trevor Noah?

  Right. So, so the reason I say I'm wor- I'm sad and I'm worried that the experiment is failing is because it was an experiment. People thought that if you put goods and services or if you say that things are going to be manufactured in poor countries, it's going to bring them up. And then that'll free up the developed countries to do different types of jobs and it'll bring them up. And then they will sell their ideas and it'll bring them up. And there'll be this beautiful loop, this beautiful loop, this beautiful loop. And we will all raise, what is that? Rising tides raise all boats. That's what we thought. What we didn't know was, some people have boats that have water pumps and they're taking a lot more water and the tides are not rising everything. So now, that's what I was saying is my worry. When my good friend Sizwe was kind enough to say, you see?

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  This was a good episode. And I like the fact that there's no solution. We just threw a problem out there. We're like, bye. Get your worries, niggas. Bye.

• 1:09:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, this guy.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  That's it. That's on you.

• 1:09:39Trevor Noah?

  I actually see a very hopeful future for your story with your son.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:09:44Trevor Noah?

  That's what I mean. So I go like, oh, you just have a problem or a worry about a potential problem. But I feel like there's many solves for the thing.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Is there a leaving the house?

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  That's funny.

• 1:09:59Trevor Noah?

  So, that's, that's, as a friend, that's, and then my friend has said to me, no, no, don't worry. All your worries are correct and it's gonna end. That's what he just did to me. You must never be a doctor, by the way, Sizwe.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Actually, he needs to be a doctor.

• 1:10:12Trevor Noah?

  No, no. He would be the person who just walks in and says to you, you're out. Statistically speaking, you're gonna die anyway. So I mean, I don't even know why you want to do the surgery.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Save your money, spend time with your family.

• 1:10:25Trevor Noah?

  You see? That's what he would be saying to you.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  No, you should not be a doctor.

• 1:10:27Trevor Noah?

  Be the shortest episodes of House ever. Just walk in. So, okay, um, let's do Sizwe's. So your concern is, you worry that?

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  So, generally speaking, um, as you correctly point out, the world is continually deteriorating.

• 1:10:43Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:44Speaker 02

  And I feel like.

• 1:10:45Trevor Noah?

  Wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm not saying continually. Let me be on record of saying that. I think we're in like cycles and I'm saying now.

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  No, we are in cycles, but obviously in the cycle, it's continuing to deteriorate.

• 1:10:54Trevor Noah?

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  We haven't hit drop bottom yet.

• 1:10:56Trevor Noah?

  Okay, great, okay.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  It's only gonna stop deteriorating, it's gonna hit drop bottom, then we're gonna need to rebuild.

• 1:11:00Trevor Noah?

  Okay, cool.

• 1:11:00Speaker 02

  Now, I worry that in the short term, because life is relatively short, right? To raise a kid in that environment is gonna be very tumultuous. And the tools that personally I had to navigate the world, I see those tools becoming more and more useless every day.

• 1:11:16Trevor Noah?

  Can you give us an example of those tools?

• 1:11:18Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, just general things, like, for example, bullying, a very simple example, right? There used to be a safe haven for bullying. These days, there isn't really.

• 1:11:31Trevor Noah?

  Sorry, sorry, I feel like I'm mishearing you. Sa- safe haven for people being bullied?

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  From being bullied, yes.

• 1:11:37Trevor Noah?

  Oh, okay. I thought you were saying there was a safe haven for bullying. No, really. Dude, you're sort of like a weird thinker. You could, you could be the kind of person who says that.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  Back in my day. Protect all bullies?

• 1:11:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, you were like, back in my day, bullies could find a place, dude. You're the kind of person who could say that.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Look, bullies do build character.

• 1:11:57Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  But I don't think we need this.

• 1:11:58Trevor Noah?

  Okay, sorry. So you're saying.

• 1:11:59Speaker 02

  So you could get bullied.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  What was the safe haven?

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  So you could get bullied and then at two thirty, the bell would ring, you'd be like, phew. That's so great. Mom, I'm going home.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Now it follows you home.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  Then you'd be in your mom's car and then be like, mom, you never believe it, eh? These guys are gonna beat me up and then you pissed up right in time and now the guys are beating you up in your mom's car and your mom's like, Caesar. Why are you in your screen? And they're pummeling you, you know what I mean? So that's just one simple example.

• 1:12:24Trevor Noah?

  Okay, got it.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  And again, it speaks to that thing of yours, the interconnectedness, because we never.

• 1:12:29Trevor Noah?

  We didn't prepare for all of this, yeah.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. And when you're a kid, you really don't have the broadened vision to know what's actually. What I can do, just turn off my phone.

• 1:12:39Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. I think as adults, we also don't necessarily have that. It took me, I'm trying to think of when this changed, maybe somewhere pandemic-ish, somewhere. It took me a long time to realize eh if it if I don't know it, it's if I don't even acknowledge, it's not even happening. I know it sounds like a weird thing. People like, no, but but people are saying things about me online and I'm like, yeah, it's not really happening unless eh eh you know, because I think.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Don't you feel like our youth kind of primed us for this, though?

• 1:13:07Trevor Noah?

  In what way?

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  Specifically like our youth in showbiz. Dude, we came out in a time where I guess the review would have been, A, the ratings, the show sucks, whatever.

• 1:13:16Trevor Noah?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  That's why when I see the kids that grew up now in the social media age.

• 1:13:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:22Speaker 02

  Right? And I see how seriously they take social media.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  And how they crumble when someone does say something.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  I can understand it because for them, they were made by social media. And if you're made by social media, you feel like you can be destroyed by social media.

• 1:13:33Trevor Noah?

  Okay, to channel my very wise younger brother, he would argue that we and the the youngest of our generation is experiencing that. He says they're not. He's like, you guys, like Bain, he's almost like, ah, you merely are dropped.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  You merely dropped on social media. I was forged in social media. Like, he goes, no, no, no, no.

• 1:13:53Trevor Noah?

  You and your youngest think that. He says, our generation, we're so robust because we were built by that. He's like, we don't, we actually don't care. He says, we don't really care about the thing and we don't. He even showed me like aesthetically.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  I disagree with you.

• 1:14:06Trevor Noah?

  No, what I'm saying, he showed me like aesthetically. Go look at like Gen Z and and lower. Look at their Instagram, their TikTok. It's not aesthetic, like millennials and above. It's not, they're not trying to show you a perfect picture of avocado toast. No, they just want to show you a vibe. They might even show you the crumbs. That's their picture. And his argument is that we think of it as being something that is infinitely harder to tackle. But he's like, it is only the reality that they have, right? So he goes, I think your situation was worse. He's like, because.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Where we entered striving for perfection because we didn't know how this thing works.

• 1:14:42Trevor Noah?

  No, but not even like he argues, he goes, yeah, you get, we get bullied online, but he's like, but you guys got bullied like physically. And there wasn't really stuff you guys could do about it when it was happening physically. And then he goes, I can make friends online. I can look at a video on TikTok about how to be a boxer. But he argues that their reality is different to ours, but it comes with its own pros and cons and they're fine with it.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think he's correct. In fact, in that analogy.

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  I would think I'm somebody like Tony Hawk. I'm like the geriatric in a skate park.

• 1:15:14Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah. That's how you are on social media.

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause I'm with the kids throwing the mud, heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  Because you were, you were literally throwing the mud on the playground.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  I, I think your brother's right, but I think there's very few of them that are like that. The rest of them, and if you, if you had to look at the stats around, you know, me- mental wellness and anxiety and all of that. A lot of them are not thinking like that. So for me, your brother is the hippie.

• 1:15:45Trevor Noah?

  Um, one thing I will throw into that, yeah, we'll, we'll rap, we'll rap. One thing.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  I'm reading light, this nigga's even calling me.

• 1:15:50Trevor Noah?

  Alright, so one thing I will say to that is, I think it's the same. Guys, one bully at my school terrorized three standards, like three grades, one bully. Do you understand what reach that is?

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:06Trevor Noah?

  One, guys, one bully would come to the tuck shop, cafeteria for those in America, and would take anything and everything and do whatever they, so I understand what you're saying, but I go, I feel like we were also that generation. I watched people get terrorized by one bully, and a whole school could have done something and didn't do anything. And we're all just like, that's them. You know, you're just like, pray to God they don't come your way.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:31Trevor Noah?

  And so what I'm arguing is, I don't necessarily think that they are softer or like, I just think that because it's so foreign to us, we see it as being more that way, but I don't necessarily think it's, and, and.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  It's the same problems, just a different iteration.

• 1:16:47Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:16:47Speaker 02

  But that's how generations are.

• 1:16:49Trevor Noah?

  Yes, that's what I think. And then I actually think the mental health thing, I think it is more important to look at our communities, like our real communities versus our social ones. I think we take for granted, forget the bully, forget the social media, forget all of that. We take for granted what a physical touch was. Yes, I got bullied, but at least my bully touched me.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:17:11Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I'm saying? At least my bully, at least I felt my bully's skin. Alright, you know what, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll continue this. We'll, go catch a flight.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Bye bye, get out of here.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  Thank you. I love you guys.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  We love you so much.

• 1:17:22Trevor Noah?

  Alright, go catch a flight.

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  Don't get bullied.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 1:17:25Trevor Noah?

  Or if you do, make sure they touch you.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  The thing around touching is.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  So that I can assess your strength, ne? Because when, when, when you are bullying me and, and you touch me, I can assess, okay, maybe I can fight you one day.

• 1:17:38Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  But digitally, I don't know what your strength is.

• 1:17:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that, that is one thing I think is worse.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  That's the only reason I'll agree with you with the bully touching you.

• 1:17:45Trevor Noah?

  Okay, I'll throw you another one that you might agree with. And I mean this genuinely. Every kid who bullied me.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Made you a better person?

• 1:17:52Trevor Noah?

  No, saw me as a human being. And I saw them as a human being. Because they didn't perpetually bully me. And they were not perpetually bullies. They were kids who played sports, who ate food, who caught the bus, who... And then they were, the same way like your job doesn't define you, hopefully in life. They were like, no, I work as a bully. But I'm also still a human being. They laughed, they... I remember walking into school and the bully would be there and be like, Trevor, you! And I'd be like, ah, bruh, come on.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Again?

• 1:18:22Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and then he'd be like, okay, but tomorrow. That for me, I don't see anyone doing online. Because I know this sounds like a crazy thing to say, but even though that bully was a bully, because we shared the same space, because we breathed the same air, because we looked into each other's real eyes. I knew who that bully was, I knew their name, I knew where they lived. I, they were a human being.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  But that's because with, with, with digital, everything is just fleeting and passing.

• 1:18:47Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and fake.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  But, yeah, but I'll raise you that people that I have like squared up with on digital, there are people that have become my friends because every day we're gonna go over each other.

• 1:18:56Trevor Noah?

  Really?

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  And yes, and then afterward you're like, you know, you're not half bad, because you must remember something. Somebody who's wrong can't be wrong all the time, and somebody who's right can't be right all the time.

• 1:19:04Trevor Noah?

  Oh, I like that.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  So even with people that I've disagreed with, you know, like aggressively on, on eggs, sooner or later, because you still get retweeted by other people, I'm like, you know, I usually speak nonsense, but today, I can agree with what you're saying. Right? So we're agreeing with each other, it's just that with digital, there's this thing of, I've said it, it's done, my phone is off, I'm gone. Right? But now with your bully, they were coming back to you every day. You could, you, there was a chance of you seeing them again and again and again. So, back to what you were saying about community. Think of the first days on Twitter. That was a community.

• 1:19:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, it was.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  And I think right now it's just that you're dealing with the, you wouldn't allow anyone to just touch you like that, even in your physical sense when you were a child, because you're like, I don't know you.

• 1:19:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  I have a bully woman, when. Who are you? Who are you? Right? And I think that what you, you're going back to is that wherever you are, be it at work, within your family.

• 1:19:56Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  And whatever, just find your sense of community.

• 1:20:00Trevor Noah?

  It's funny, you know, you say, yeah, there's something you stumbled on, I feel like, in one part.

• 1:20:10Trevor Noah?

  That's really special, and that is.

• 1:20:14Trevor Noah?

  We've lost that. Even fighting, at least you are connecting with another person. I know it sounds crazy, but even having a back and forth, at some point, you will see each other as people.

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  You know, when Siva almost quoted President Joe Biden.

• 1:20:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, Joe Biden.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  Let me quote President Obama at his first inauguration, where he said, I will listen to you, especially when we disagree.

• 1:20:37Trevor Noah?

  Huh.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Ah. You must listen to people that you disagree with, and that's the problem with, I would say, the Trump party. Is that there's just a notion that I don't have to listen to you because I disagree with you. But why is in the two minutes of me talking, you agree with thirty seconds of what I'm saying? Now you're doing yourself an injustice of just totally disregarding me because I'm not a Trump party.

• 1:20:58Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I think both ways, actually, and I think that's, I've always said, America's biggest struggle for me in its politics is that it is binary. So Americans think and have been taught that it is this or that. But now I realize, and I realize every time I come home to South Africa, I'm like, wow, we have such a complex. A perfect example is the, I'm an ANC bitch. The woman on the FlySafA flight. This is a black woman who gets drunk on a flight, starts berating the, like, the flight attendants.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:28Trevor Noah?

  Throws things at other passengers, and now passengers, black and white alike, team up against her.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Because wrong is wrong.

• 1:21:35Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but even then, the commentary of it, the

• 1:21:41Trevor Noah?

  pro ANC people there against her, and then black people at large are against her and white people. And I was like, oh, yeah, I don't really see many of those types of things happen in America.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  I saw a white guy coming up for her, and he wrote a thread about what could have gone wrong, and we must understand. I was just like, okay, we have reached Milele.

• 1:21:58Trevor Noah?

  But, but what exactly, so what I mean is like, when you are told that there is one of two solutions, you will then think that there's one or two solutions, and so you will be forced to pick between one of two solutions.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  And you, and you believe that if I pick one, I can't like certain elements of the other one.

• 1:22:16Trevor Noah?

  Yes, because you've been told, whereas, whereas when you come from a place where they go, no, no, no, no, no. As you said earlier with the ANC, even the ANC was multiple coalitions in one thing.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  And that's what made it work, because you know what you find then? You find accountability.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  And and and me constantly having to behave in a way that proves that my theory is the one that we should go with, right? Now, when when we're all thinking the same, right? When we're all thinking the same, isn't that a dictatorship?

• 1:22:46Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, no, this is this is not, actually, you know what's funny? You actually made me worry less.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:22:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:54Trevor Noah?

  No, really, because I think to myself,

• 1:22:57Trevor Noah?

  even in the moment, this is gonna sound like a crazy thing, even for me to say to myself, but like,

• 1:23:04Trevor Noah?

  the one upside of revolutions is that they bring people together.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:23:08Trevor Noah?

  Or like one of the upsides, maybe, depending on where the revolution's going. But it is like, you know, the people come together, like the, you you know, you think of like the the Berlin Wall coming down, you think of like the Soviet Union collapsing, you think of Cuba, you think, eh eh, yeah, it's like, it brings people together, and maybe that's what's, maybe that's what we're living in. Maybe life is a constant yo-yo of humans being pulled apart and then being pulled back together. And maybe we create things that pull us apart.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:38Trevor Noah?

  Walls at our houses, you know, tinted windows in our cars, things that isolate us. And then something comes along, everything from an earthquake to a fire.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  And then you need that person that you're blocking out.

• 1:23:50Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, all of a sudden, we're now back together. And it's,

• 1:23:56Trevor Noah?

  it's interesting to think of like us always being forced to come back together, whether we like it or not.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, because.

• 1:24:03Trevor Noah?

  Like, literally, whether we like it or not.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Whether you like it or not.

• 1:24:05Trevor Noah?

  Humans are gonna get forced to be.

• 1:24:06Speaker 01

  We're gonna be back here together.

• 1:24:07Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, and we don't know what it'll be.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:10Trevor Noah?

  Huh, I like that. See, once these were left, my worries left as well.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  No, but you need the grim, the Grinch.

• 1:24:20Trevor Noah?

  The funny thing is, he's not even Grinchy. If he was a Grinch, it would be better. He's an A I.

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  It's his delivery of it.

• 1:24:25Trevor Noah?

  You know, like, you know, like, when you watch those movies where, like, where, like, the robot just says, like, straight up, they just go, like, humankind needs to be eliminated, then you're like, excuse me? It appears to me that being human is suboptimal. Yeah, but I'm asking you, what's a better way to do my garden? The best way is to not have a garden.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  It's gonna die anyway.

• 1:24:41Trevor Noah?

  It's gonna die anyway, the same way you will die. If I end you, then you do not have to worry about the garden. Yo, yo, yo, Sizwe, Sizwe, I'm looking for a solution. Yes, and I presented the ultimate solution to you. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 1:24:54Speaker 01

  Solution is death.

• 1:24:55Trevor Noah?

  Yes, this is why you're a mom and he isn't.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  As a parent, you just have to be the eternal optimist. And, and.

• 1:25:01Trevor Noah?

  And that's true.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  And, and, but then it's so difficult to be the eternal optimist, but then finding hard, places to be hard inside of that, because you have to be hard at times, because discipline has to happen.

• 1:25:13Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  You know? So you, you, you know what it is? It's a yo-yo.

• 1:25:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  We, we separate, but we're gonna come together, because somebody has to drive you to school.

• 1:25:22Trevor Noah?

  I love that. Thank you, Anizzi. Thanks for joining me.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:25:26Trevor Noah?

  And thank you, Sizwe, in your absence.

• 1:25:34Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.

• 1:26:12Speaker 04

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