Michael Calvey (on being wrongfully imprisoned in Russia)

Michael Calvey (Odyssey Moscow: One American's Journey from Russia Optimist to Prisoner of the State) is an investor, businessman, and author. Michael joins the Armchair Expert to discuss how the Soviet Union existed when he climbed the the matterhorn but had fallen by the time he came down, learning that contact lenses freeze inside one’s eyes in Russian temperatures, and being an early tech investor in the Russian during its big recession. Michael and Dax talk about his apartment being deliberately set on fire by rivals, being raided and arrested by armed men in the middle of the night, and feeling betrayed by believing so much in a country that wrongly imprisoned him. Michael explains discovering he had a malignant tumor in his leg while behind bars, what the average Russian citizen thinks of Putin, and why writing this book was both cathartic and cheaper than therapy. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:07Dax Shepard?

  This is a crazy story today.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Really crazy.

• 0:10Dax Shepard?

  Crazy story. How often do you talk to a man that was imprisoned in Russia wrongly?

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Not that often.

• 0:18Dax Shepard?

  Mine was my first. Oh, you're up to a couple of times. Michael Calvi is an investor and an entrepreneur, and he was in Russia from almost the beginning of their foray into capitalism. And he's very well established and very, very successful. And then something went wrong. And he has a thrilling book called Odyssey Moscow: One American's Journey From Russia, Optimist to Prisoner of the State.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Wild.

• 0:48Dax Shepard?

  This is a nail biter. Please enjoy Michael Calvi. We get support from Quince.

• 0:54Speaker 01

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• 1:13Dax Shepard?

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• 1:40Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm gonna tell you this. It just got chilly for the first time this year in California, and I'm so excited. And I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 1:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 1:52Speaker 01

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• 2:15Dax Shepard?

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• 2:40Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything. Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 2:50Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation. And I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes. And they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in it. One of my other beds recently that doesn't have a Helix mattress on it. And I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 3:24Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  It was a mess. I need a new one.

• 3:27Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 3:42Speaker 01

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• 3:49Dax Shepard?

  Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. Helixsleep.com/armchair.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  By the way, I love the vans, like, high school days.

• 4:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it really brings you back, doesn't it?

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, awesome.

• 4:29Dax Shepard?

  Where did you grow up? Oklahoma?

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Oklahoma.

• 4:31Dax Shepard?

  And we're roughly the same age?

• 4:33Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah. I'm born in sixty-seven.

• 4:35Dax Shepard?

  Okay, born in seventy-five. So skateboarding, did it come to Oklahoma before you graduated?

• 4:40Speaker 02

  I wasn't a skateboarder, though, because I played basketball, easy thing to break a wrist and lose the season.

• 4:44Dax Shepard?

  That's true. As someone who broke a wrist, yeah, I can attest to that. What did your parents do in Oklahoma?

• 4:49Speaker 02

  My dad was an engineer. Both my parents grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and that's where I was born. So the reason I don't have an Oklahoma accent, I was raised by parents from the mid, mid, Midwest.

• 4:58Dax Shepard?

  But they say your peers are who give you your accent, right?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  I think that's right.

• 5:01Dax Shepard?

  No second-generation English kids have an English accent.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  That's probably true, but I also moved abroad at the age of twenty-three, so I've lived most of my life in Europe and Russia, basically.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  What is an Oklahoma accent?

• 5:12Speaker 02

  It's kind of a southern accent.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Oh, it is?

• 5:15Speaker 02

  It depends on who you're talking to, I guess. Yeah.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:17Dax Shepard?

  Well, remember, we just had, um...

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Oh, Jimmy Marsden. Little Jimmy Marsden.

• 5:22Dax Shepard?

  Little Jimmy Marsden.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I listened to that. That was a great episode.

• 5:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you heard that?

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Yes, I did.

• 5:27Dax Shepard?

  Because he was an Oklahoman?

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Not only because of that, but I listened to it and I thought, well, there you have it.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  He doesn't have an accent, though. He has a charm.

• 5:35Dax Shepard?

  He does have a unique way of speaking.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right.

• 5:37Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, I'm just realizing that my sriracha sauce... You had already seen that? I had a big sriracha sauce disaster about twenty minutes ago, but I've largely recovered until I just...

• 5:46Speaker 02

  I hope it was worth it.

• 5:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you graduate from college, I'm guessing, eighty-nine?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 5:53Dax Shepard?

  From University of Oklahoma?

• 5:54Speaker 02

  University of Oklahoma.

• 5:55Dax Shepard?

  And what was your degree in?

• 5:56Speaker 02

  It was in computer science and business, basically.

• 5:59Dax Shepard?

  And did you know you wanted to go to Wall Street?

• 6:01Speaker 02

  I thought, and this sounds hilarious in hindsight, I thought I was gonna go pursue a political career. I was, like, the class president, and adults would say to me, you know, we could really use a guy like you, and I'll help you out. When I was going to University of Oklahoma, it was partly, I wouldn't say for that reason, but it also seemed like a natural thing to do. But I met someone who was the older brother of one of my friends when I was in college, who had worked on Wall Street, and just sort of over a crisp... He came back and was telling stories and I thought, you know, I want to live in New York and do that. So I got a job working there. I wanted to do something adventurous and I had job offers from Exxon and Chevron and the typical oil companies that my dad, to them, they were like deities. I mean, they were the venerable, most respected institutions on planet earth from his perspective.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  So when I said, I have no interest in a pension plan and a career, I want to do something that's more swashbuckling and fun and especially Solomon Brothers, where I worked, where another of your guests. Michael Lewis. Came out when I was there. I of course didn't know that. I'd been there for four months or something like that. You just missed him then.

• 7:03Dax Shepard?

  No, we gotta take two seconds on that. So you were working there after it had come out?

• 7:08Speaker 02

  I was working there when it came out.

• 7:09Dax Shepard?

  When it came out, did you immediately go read it?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Of course. They called a meeting of the entire firm. There was like this giant conference room that could sit 1,500 people. So we're all there. I have no idea what it's about. And the senior management of the firm that you only see rarely came in and you could just see there was like steam coming from their ears. And they basically were saying, a book is coming out tomorrow and it's full of lies and slander. And if any of you come into the press, you're fired. Don't even think about buying the book. We all of course went out and bought the book immediately.

• 7:38Dax Shepard?

  Of course. And be dead honest, you were 21 or two?

• 7:42Speaker 02

  I was 21. I loved it. Of course. Yeah. I was working in a different part. I was working in the corporate finance team. So we were like the ugly little brother of the traders who were the swashbucklers. There were not strippers walking through the corporate finance department. Sad for you.

• 7:56Dax Shepard?

  That'd almost be maddening if I was one floor away from this party I'm reading about.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Thumping on the ceiling or something like that.

• 8:03Dax Shepard?

  In 91, you end up going to Russia and how does that come about?

• 8:07Speaker 02

  It was really an accident. I wanted to go to business school. I got into the school that I dreamed about, but I thought that it would be nice to spend a year living abroad and I had an opportunity to go work for Solomon Brothers London office. And a week before I moved, the guy who was going to hire me left to join this institution called the EBRD, a bank that was like the World Bank Group that was set up to invest in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. It's called the European Bank for Reconstruction Development. It's owned by 50 different governments around the world, including the US government, but mostly European. Governments and was set up to invest in the Soviet Union. My boss knew that I was an oil and gas and energy investment specialist at the time. There was apparently a lot of oil in the Soviet Union, so he basically said, why don't you just come here for a year? And then he can go back to business school. So I did.

• 8:50Dax Shepard?

  And let's remind people of context. So eighty nine, the wall comes down.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:54Dax Shepard?

  We're talking ninety one and how quickly did all of the Soviet bloc break apart?

• 8:58Speaker 02

  Four months later. So in fact, the week before I started actual work. I took a backpacking and climbing trip around Europe and I was going to climb the Matterhorn with my best friend. And we pull into Zermatt and I see in the newspaper that there's been a coup in Moscow and Gorbachev was arrested by the KGB. So I thought, oh, there's not going to be any investments. Maybe my job is at risk or whatever. When we climb the Matterhorn. By the time we come back down to Zermatt three days later, the headline shows Yeltsin standing on a tank, coup is collapsing. And it set in motion some forces that just became unstoppable. And four months later, the Soviet Union ceased to exist. I went to Moscow for the first, I rushed for the first time a month later. The customs forms still said the Soviet Union because they didn't have time yet to print all the documents.

• 9:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So historically, you really are among a handful of the first Americans that are arriving post communism.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, there were obviously scholars and people who studied Russian. I didn't have any Russian or Eastern European ethnic roots. I didn't study it in college.

• 9:56Dax Shepard?

  You would see Red Dawn, I'm sure.

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Did you speak Russian?

• 10:01Speaker 02

  No, I didn't at the time. I do now. I mean, even an American can learn a language in thirty years.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  I don't know about me. Yeah.

• 10:08Dax Shepard?

  So you got there and you already had a job. Had they already sorted housing and all that?

• 10:13Speaker 02

  At first I was living in London, but traveling there once or twice a month and then moved there full time in ninety four. But I remember my first trip, I spent a couple of days in Moscow and then flew straight to Siberia where this oil project was. When I got off the airplane, it was minus forty eight degrees. And I had contact lenses at the time and that's when I learned that contact lenses are mostly water because the contact lenses started to freeze. So you had to kind of close your eyes and just briefly open them. So it was almost like being under strobe lights in a nightclub.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Oh, this is miserable.

• 10:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  A freezing cold. It was not love at first sight. I mean, it was fascination at first sight in Moscow. The people were kind of scowling on the outside. Everything was brown and gray. They just like Americans. They loved Americans.

• 10:55Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Their view was not that they lost the Cold War, but they just chose to change sides.

• 11:00Dax Shepard?

  Join the winning team.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  They rejected communism and they thought that if they became more democratic, they would quickly become as prosperous as people in the West. It was ridiculous, almost the admiration that the young Americans like us felt and the respect, even though we were 25 years old and especially within the investment and finance area, we were some of the most experienced people in the whole country at 25 or 26 years old. I also quickly realized, even though on the exterior Russians can be quite harsh, that when you scratch through the initial surface, they're the most hospitable, generous, loyal friends that anyone can have. And they also have their own unique sense of humor, which I love. If I told you some Russian jokes, you probably wouldn't laugh.

• 11:40Dax Shepard?

  Ah, I don't know. I'm dark. Maybe I was.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  And I made some really good friends. I did fall in love with the country and I still do, despite everything that's happened to me much later. Love most things about Russia.

• 11:50Dax Shepard?

  Would it be fair to draw a comparison to them as such a large scale societal trauma that it would be similar to what's great about folks with tons of trauma, where I come from? Yeah, it's a very stay the fuck away from me, but then when you're on the inside, there's a level of loyalty that really doesn't exist with highly functional people.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Certainly what happened after the fall of the Soviet Union was traumatic. Anybody who would have been over 25 years old saw complete economic devastation. We freak out in America when there's a recession and recession means that there's like two quarters in a row where GDP falls by at least 0.1%. In the first eight years that I was working on investments in Russia, the GDP fell by 75%, twice the scale of the Great Depression. Yeah, and what's the unemployment rate? Unemployment wasn't so high, but underemployment was rampant. You had people with PhDs or engineers and other things who were working as street cleaners. There's this legendary department store right off of Red Square that's called Goom. And this magnificent 19th century building, like a palace, that's turned into a department

• 12:53Speaker 02

  store. It's sort of like Saks Fifth Avenue. And when I first arrived in January 1992, the first floor had some shops selling Levi's blue jeans and a handful of other things. But the second and third floors were just old people selling their silver or carpet or whatever they had for money, and it was heartbreaking. But for young people, it was the opportunity of a lifetime because Russians needed everything. There was pent up demand for everything. And people who could quickly figure out that if you could go to Berlin, you could buy such and such a thing, drive back to Moscow and sell it at double the price. And how are people paying for it if they didn't have any money? They had rubles. There was hyperinflation, the rubles devaluing constantly, but it was still there. So you could also make money doing that, trading the currencies.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  It rewarded people who were super fast on their feet. Great time for hustlers. And it also, though, was a totally lawless time. I mean, if you lived in Russia under the Yeltsin period, it was a time of great hope. I remember it was just a couple of months after I went to Russia for the first time, Yeltsin was invited by the US to come speak to a joint session of Congress. And I think it's the longest standing ovation any foreign leader has ever had. Wow. I mean, it was just such a feeling of the Cold War's over, our bitterest enemy has come here. It was spine tingling and excitement, and we felt like we were there at the ground level.

• 14:12Dax Shepard?

  Now, when did they devise the plan? Because everything was state owned. It goes from minerals to gas and oil, and they devise a plan that they're going to issue shares in all these different sectors to the citizens. When did that happen?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  It was a good plan on paper. It happened sort of in 1993 and 1994. At first, they gave every Russian citizen a coupon that you could use to bid for shares that were being privatized. If you worked at an enterprise, you would get shares in it automatically for free. A certain amount was reserved for the workers. That was very... Fair on paper, but if you worked for Gazprom or for another big oil company, your shares in the company might have been worth $50,000 overnight. If you worked at the State Institute of Geology that serviced them, you got nothing. It turned out to be horribly uneven.

• 15:01Dax Shepard?

  And then clever men borrowed tons of foreign money and they just bought up all these shares.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  The managers of those companies, some of them were inscrupulous. They would not pay their workers on time and then offer to buy their shares at a deeply discounted price. And people had no idea, what is this piece of paper? It says it's a share or whatever, so they would sell it for pennies on the dollar.

• 15:20Dax Shepard?

  Because I would think a lot of people would be curious how these oligarchs came to be. How on earth did a handful of people end up with the predominant ownership?

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Some was that, some happened later when in 1996, there was going to be another big election. That was the one when there was an initial blowback from some of these reforms, like when they freed up prices and let companies set prices themselves. And there was a massive inflation and it was very hard for people. So probably the majority of people in the country started to not support this path. But at the same time, there was a fear about going back to communism. So the 1996 election felt like it was a make or break election for the country. And in hindsight, the West made a mistake by turning a blind eye. Yeltsin used all sorts of manipulative tactics to win the election. Even had American political advisors coming in and propagandistic TV programs and other things like that. They really helped to rehabilitate his image.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  He went from like a 10% approval rating to 52% just in time for the election and defeated the communist candidate.

• 16:16Dax Shepard?

  And then we can get into how Yeltsin then created Putin, but we'll table that for a minute because that's some years down the road. When do you move there?

• 16:23Speaker 02

  I moved there in 94.

• 16:24Dax Shepard?

  What's the just living situation?

• 16:27Speaker 02

  It was crazy. I was living in an apartment building initially that was built by the Ministry of Defense for people that worked there. It was a brick building that would look like a housing project if it was in a major US city. But a brick building, as opposed to a concrete slab building, was considered a luxury in Moscow at the time. So I was just renting it for a while. It was a mix of. Hilarious adventures, crazy nightlife for a young, single man in Moscow.

• 16:54Dax Shepard?

  We got bars right away, right?

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Yes, some legendary bars and clubs, metal detectors at the doors, mafia guys in one corner. Couple of Americans in the other. It was exciting and it was fun. And we did feel like we were participating in something that was historic as well. But it was also great fun. Sometimes it was hardship, but it was hardship that kind of makes you laugh in hindsight. I mean, going to hotel in the north of Russia where the heating doesn't work and I'm in bed with my full overcoat on and a fur Russian hat and I can see my breath.

• 17:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 17:25Speaker 02

  I had a Russian friend who was among these nouveau riche Russian guys who made money quickly. It was so proud, he bought the first Range Rover in the country. And so he had a party at his apartment and he planned to drive up and whatever.

• 17:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  At the appointed hour, he doesn't show up and a half an hour later, an hour later, and finally comes into his apartment and his face is bright red and he explains that his car had been stolen on the way in from the dealership. So he had stopped at the parking garage and he got out of the car to like put in the code. And while he did that, someone jumped in the Range Rover and drove off right in front of his eyes.

• 17:58Dax Shepard?

  I remember I was watching a 60 Minutes segment around that time. The advice was if you're getting pulled over, you must race to the police station or race to the military. Cause if you get out of the car, it's stolen. You cannot trust who's behind you.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  I had my American driver's license and you're supposed to have an international license to drive there. And so I was just driving myself and the police would pull you over. They look at my license and he would say, that's an American license, not a international. But the Russian word for international is mezhenorodny. And so my American license where it said sex M, I would point to the M and say, oh no, this is an American international license. Maybe I go, okay, that's fine.

• 18:36Dax Shepard?

  Yes, he had to be agile. He had to lie a little bit. You had to figure out how to work within the system you were in. You say in the book, the caviar is free.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Basically.

• 18:45Dax Shepard?

  And Pizza Hut is like where you would take your first date you're trying to impress.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  If you really wanted to impress a date, Pizza Hut was the really cool place to go.

• 18:53Dax Shepard?

  But you could just be dumping caviar in the trash for free, basically.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Tablespoons of caviar on your scrambled eggs.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Wild. Does your family like, come home, what are you doing?

• 19:04Speaker 02

  They thought that I was a bit strange when I went to New York and then when I went to London, very strange Moscow, they almost thought maybe there was a mix up at the hospital when he was born.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd be scared.

• 19:14Dax Shepard?

  You co-founded the company.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Like a venture capital firm, basically. We were investing in everything from beer brewing, chocolate, mineral water. We had a forestry business. We made good money doing that. Mobile phones, we invested in the company that had the mobile phones that were like the size of a shoe or something like that. It grew from 2,000 subscribers to 100 million. And it was the first Russian company to go public on the New York Stock Exchange. So we had some really lucky early things that helped us get through the crises and the crashes. But where we really made our name was investing in Russian technologies. In 1998, Russia defaulted on its debt and devalued its currency. Most people wrote it off. One of my investors told me, Mike, let's face it, Russia's like the Titanic. It's sunk. It's at the bottom of the ocean. It'll never come up.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  But the people who stuck it out, and especially the people who doubled down at that time, ended up making a fortune. There was like a 10-year period from 1998 to 2008, which were the golden years in Russia.

• 20:08Dax Shepard?

  And you get into one company that ends up being basically Amazon, Google, and Uber all in one company.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Yandex is the Google of Russia. It's one of the most innovative companies in the world. We invested $2 million. It was the only money that the company ever raised. It was a consortium that invested a total of $5 million, but we put in the biggest amount and we led the whole investment. At the time, the company's monthly revenues were about $1,000. But they had this core group of 30 or 40 just genius people who were absolutely devoted to it. And the product was fanatically popular among every Russian using it. It worked much better than Yahoo or any of the other search engines and things that worked at the time. This was before even Google emerged as the leading search engine here. It took them about five years to break even, but they only burned about $1 million a year. After the internet bubble burst, Google was created and they did come.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  They were entering Russia, but they weren't getting that much traction, so they thought they would buy Yandex. So they offered to buy for $100 million. We said no, but they came back six months later and offered 250 million. And then we would have made 15 times our money or something like that. And so some of the Other investors in that five million consortium really wanted to sell. But my partner, Yelena Vashenshova, who really led that investment for us and the founders of the company, believed that the company would be worth billions and it was way too early to sell. So we had to veto the sale. Some of the other investors tried to sue us. But anyway, you fast forward seven or eight years and the company goes public on NASDAQ with a $10 billion valuation.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  And all those people who were suing us were showing up on CNBC and Bloomberg and boasting about having been early investors.

• 21:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  That is wild.

• 21:42Dax Shepard?

  It is.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  I probably would have been someone who said, "Sell early."

• 21:46Dax Shepard?

  Bird in the hand.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  I know.

• 21:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so over the next 29 years, this company has $2.8 billion invested in 80 different companies. You're wildly successful. You guys are among the most successful Westerners in the country. Are you sitting in Moscow at any point during this going like, "Well, this would be rad if I was in Switzerland," or are you enjoying it?

• 22:07Speaker 02

  I loved it. I had so many good friends, including a number of expats, Americans who moved there at the same time as I did, but also more and more Russian friends. The kind of people that I was working with, I had two main groups of people that were influenced. The tech people, we were all wearing sneakers, T-shirts. It felt not dissimilar to what it would feel like investing in California.

• 22:27Dax Shepard?

  Silicon Valley, yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  So, young people, not interested in politics at all. It was just really stimulating because they were doing exciting stuff. Our firm was being recognized not just for success in Russia, but as one of the global leaders in tech investing. And at one point, we raised a billion dollar fund in three days, where I just flew to London, New York, and San Francisco. And investors flew from all over the world to me to basically pitch me to take their money, convince me how they could help us besides just the money. But I also had a separate group of friends and influences. I was lucky to invite a partner who was a cosmonaut and one of the most famous people in Russia, Alex Seelyonov. He was the first human being to ever walk in space outside of a spacecraft in 1965. And then in 1975, he went into space a second time as the head of the Apollo Soyuz mission,

• 23:12Speaker 02

  which was when the American capsules docked together with the Soviet capsule. And he opened the hatch and in front of World TV, he reached across and shook the hand of the American. Astronaut and pulled him in that astronaut turned out to be Tom Stafford from Oklahoma. The most famous person probably ever from Oklahoma.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Don't tell that to James Marsden.

• 23:29Dax Shepard?

  Or Brad Pitt was born there.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  No, no, Missouri. Oh, he was born but then grew up.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Well, they don't have their statues in the state Capitol yet.

• 23:37Dax Shepard?

  Yet.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  But it's funny, you know, I told my mom, she never quite understood what I was doing and it was all a bit. Dad, I was telling, we just raised a billion dollar fund in three days and she kind of rolled her eyes and like, when are you coming back to Oklahoma? But then one day there's a knock on her door just a few days before Christmas and she comes to the door and it's General Tom Stafford. And he says, you must be Mike Calvi's mom, you know, I'm just here to give him his Christmas present, remind him we're having lunch on Friday. She doesn't even know what to say, but she runs to the phone and she calls me immediately and says, I'm so proud of you.

• 24:06Dax Shepard?

  You gotta put it in their world.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, a billion dollars isn't enough? My god.

• 24:11Dax Shepard?

  But the astronaut. And you meet Julia?

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:15Dax Shepard?

  You get married, you have two boys and a girl?

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Russian?

• 24:18Speaker 02

  She's Russian and we met in Moscow after I lived there for just a couple of years. Julia is amazing and especially what we went through later and how just absolutely rock solid she is. She's just an incredible woman.

• 24:27Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so let's talk about this business deal you get involved with. It involves a bank and there's a merger.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Well, they're mostly investing in tech companies, but we also had some investments in banking or financial services, mostly online banks or apps. We had one investment in a traditional retail bank that was working in the far east. And they took a decision to merge with another bank. And just before that merger took place, the guys that owned the other bank did a bunch of transactions to loan money to their friends or other things. That all went into default immediately and we realized they had just stripped money out of the bank just beforehand.

• 25:02Dax Shepard?

  And you're gonna assume all that debt now?

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Right, so now the debt's there and the central bank of Russia, which is like their Federal Reserve, is starting to investigate. It's two guys and we tried to negotiate some sort of a compromise or settlement. They were insisting on getting control of the bank. The only way to stop that was to start litigation against them in London, which is what the merger agreement said. That's when they started to try to take countermeasures to get us to either drop the suit or give them control or sell them the bank. There were a lot of threats. That's an aggressive, they did get control, they were blocking us out of the actual bank buildings.

• 25:35Dax Shepard?

  And really quick, these gentlemen, use that term loosely, what's their background? What's the line between gangsters and businessmen?

• 25:42Speaker 02

  They were young guys, like mid 30s at the time, I was already 50 years old. And the people of my age who lived through the 1990s in Russia were mostly involved in some kind of disputes. And learned by the time we were 30 that everybody loses from disputes like that. And certainly when I had conflicts with Russian oligarchs before. But in those days, relationship between the US and Russia was much stronger. The government was not going to let something.

• 26:09Dax Shepard?

  You had a lot of leverage.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  We were also just very useful because what we were doing was really useful for the economy. Through my friend, the cosmonaut, he knew governors across the whole country and the president, he was very well known. And so we were always able to navigate our interests. But what I didn't appreciate is that younger guys who hadn't lived through all that didn't realize yet that everybody loses from disasters and they were well connected. They had some very good friends in the different parts of the Russian government and they were desperate. I think they realized that if they didn't get control, the Russian central bank itself would probably put them in jail.

• 26:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Because the Russian central bank was essentially supporting us and they're the regulator for that sector. I also though was not naive, when they started making threats that they were going to try to retaliate by making criminal allegations or things like that, I took the threat seriously and I consulted with some friends of mine and senior levels in the Russian government and they all basically said, these guys are low level con men. You should stand your ground and also no one's going to arrest a prominent international investor without a proper investigation.

• 27:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you were an investor in the number one tech company. Also, you have a bank investment, which is the number one online banking in all of Russia.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  It'd be like somebody came to the United States and was the founding investor in Google, Amazon and Facebook.

• 27:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, Peter Thiel.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:23Dax Shepard?

  Peter Thiel is probably going to have a voice in some.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  You'd think twice or three times, you better have your shit together.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  I'm taking it seriously. I'm trying to negotiate. I'm trying to explain to the guys, look, this is also a bank. Banks are fragile. If the public learns of this conflict, the depositors are all going to take their money out, the bank will go bankrupt, there'll be nothing left to fight over. Let's find some compromise. There was one time we were going to have a meeting for dinner. It's like 5 o'clock in the afternoon and I get a text saying, Mike, there's a fire in your apartment building. So I raced there and I see the top floor of my building, where I just bought an apartment, it's being renovated, it was supposed to be finished like a week later.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Is on fire and the fire is just on the roof right above my apartment. So it literally destroys my apartment and almost nothing else in the building.

• 28:08Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  And the two guys who caused the fire were some contractors from Belarus who fled the country two hours after the incident happened. So very suspicious. And I go straight to this meeting with the guys who are quick to say, this had nothing to do with us. But it was very stressful and it was a very aggressive meeting where they were making threats to destroy our entire fund and other things like that. So it was not like I didn't see something coming, but I overestimated the rationality of the system. I kept thinking, what I do is so useful for Russia and for its economy. And I believed in Russia. I was going around the world convincing investors to share my optimism because my experience in Russia had been so encouraging overall.

• 28:48Dax Shepard?

  So 2019, you're in your apartment, you're just woken up.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  I've flown there just for a special negotiation. By that time, the relations had really broken down with these other guys. But I kept saying, look, a war is not good for anybody. Let's find a compromise. We need to meet and sort this out. So they invite me to meet on February 14th. I fly to Moscow.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Wait, and where were you? You were here?

• 29:10Speaker 02

  I was in Switzerland. I'm living at that time in Switzerland, in London, but still going to Russia three times a month. So I fly on the 12th. I get a text the next day from one of the two guys, are you in Moscow? Still good for tomorrow? Yes. So I wake up February 14th to the sound of some pounding on my door. And I always sleep with earplugs. I have for 20 years. So at first it didn't really wake me up. And then I kind of thought this might be the neighbors. Walk over towards the door and I realized it's not just someone, it's probably six people pounding on the door. And I'm standing there just wearing shorts and nothing else. And I don't know what to do when suddenly the door bursts open. And 12 men, including half of them with guns drawn, come charging into the room screaming at me to put my hands in the air.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  I know immediately that it's related to this case, but still, just, you know, adrenaline. I can't speak for a few minutes. I asked them to let me get dressed, so I put on some like jeans and a shirt. My fingers are like shaking, so I do the buttons wrong. Finally, a heart rate comes down a little bit and I'm able to ask them some questions. And that began this really pretty harsh ordeal.

• 30:16Dax Shepard?

  Now, there's like a 30 something, I guess, detective.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  The investigative committee, the sleuths committee is like the FBI. It's part of a triangle of institutions that's headed by the FSB, which is the old KGB, basically. So there's also the prosecutor's office and then the investigators.

• 30:32Dax Shepard?

  So you got a guy in the house and he's just rifling through your stuff in front of you and he's looking at pictures. And he finds a picture of your son when he's four and he has a black eye. And he's saying, oh, are you also a child abuser? Are you also guilty of that?

• 30:46Speaker 02

  And I just sat there with my jaw open, thinking, how could you even ask that?

• 30:50Dax Shepard?

  The moment there for me that would be so infuriating is I'm now in a dynamic where this dipshit gets to come in and just start accusing me randomly of stuff.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Just rifling through your personal photos. I'm trying to rationalize things. I keep thinking, okay, they're just sending me a brutal message to back off and give up control of this bank. I didn't think they were seriously planning to launch a criminal investigation over something that never happened.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  This was only six years ago?

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 31:18Dax Shepard?

  So you get taken into the office where they're gonna ask you a bazillion questions?

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Which is like George Orwell's 1984, The Ministry of Truth.

• 31:25Dax Shepard?

  It's a very Soviet era building.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Very Soviet era building, like linoleum floors and long corridors with just these dark doors.

• 31:32Dax Shepard?

  Every horror flashback we see in American television, period. Now, really quick, I think is relevant, is a lawyer that worked with the company with your fund. He did arrive on the scene in your apartment. Because they had also raided your offices.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 31:46Dax Shepard?

  And he says basically to you, right, this is Pearl Harbor.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. I thought, now that's a really- Good metaphor, actually. Sneak attack, which succeeded in its objectives, I guess. But just in the same way, there's a way to fight back. It's gonna get worse.

• 31:59Dax Shepard?

  He basically says, there's a system in place and we're gonna fight and win.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:02Dax Shepard?

  Are you getting a sense of what the accusations from the two bozos are?

• 32:06Speaker 02

  I knew what they were accusing us of and they just had it all wrong. So when they first interrogations, I just said, look, I wasn't involved in that episode that you're talking about. But here's what I know about the facts of it. And if you go to this person and that company and this other company, they'll have all the documents on this, which will show that what you're suspecting here was a super profitable transaction for the bank, which benefited the bank. We didn't get anything from it.

• 32:31Dax Shepard?

  Good luck.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  They did. Later, I heard they were horrified because they thought that it was a slam dunk case.

• 32:36Dax Shepard?

  Now, were these two guys connected somehow with somebody at the RBS or?

• 32:41Speaker 02

  FSB.

• 32:41Dax Shepard?

  FSB.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  They were well connected in the government. I'm not sure about the FSB beforehand, but they were able to get the right people to support them. And I understand that ultimately it was approved by Putin. You know, any like high profile arrest, you guys can't believe the degree of micromanagement in the country and how many decisions go to his desk. What? Because people are afraid to do anything. If you haven't gotten his approval, you can get blamed later. So they come to him and there's no papers or documents or anything like that. And he'll either say, okay, I approve or I don't approve. And sometimes he'll scribble on a piece of paper, I approve or something like that. But basically they told him, and I learned this only in hindsight, that I was the biggest financial backer for Russia's opposition. So I was like financing the people trying to overthrow Putin, which was not true.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  We were never involved in politics.

• 33:28Dax Shepard?

  Did these two guys convince them, the FBS? I'm gonna get it right. Is that right?

• 33:34Speaker 02

  FSB. That's all right. You're such a happy person to not know those acronyms.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 33:48Dax Shepard?

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• 34:14Speaker 04

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• 34:59Speaker 04

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• 35:11Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Instagram teen accounts. So, we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up, and one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Which is a fair question.

• 35:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so Instagram has got something called teen accounts, and they come with automatic protections built in by default. So, anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age-appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that by default, only people they're already connected to can message them. And time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also sleep mode that mutes notifications from 10:00 PM to 7:00 AM.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Sleep mode is genius.

• 35:56Dax Shepard?

  Right? And here's the thing, for Anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on and Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age appropriate experiences for teens.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  I am really glad Instagram is helping to give parents peace of mind with teen accounts.

• 36:16Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time, but even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it, start to finish. Cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you.

• 36:59Dax Shepard?

  So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 37:08Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

• 37:20Dax Shepard?

  Were these two guys so convincing when they told the FSB the allegations against you that they bought in? Or was it always corrupt from the get-go and we're gonna fuck this guy because he's trying to fuck us and let's fuck him?

• 37:31Speaker 02

  I think even those two individuals believed that where there was smoke, there was fire. Maybe they thought there was something there, but they were desperate guys. They didn't do something radical. They were gonna go to jail. In hindsight, I underestimated what measures a desperate person will go through, but also how much the geopolitical situation had changed and how being an American was no longer an asset, it was a liability. So Putin was very ready to believe by that point that an American would really be an evil bastard who would be there to try to overthrow him. When in fact, I was doing things that were super useful for the country.

• 38:02Dax Shepard?

  Well, he's fully a paranoid at this point, right?

• 38:04Speaker 01

  You'd think they'd like take five minutes to look into it.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  Exactly. If they had just read the central bank's own audit report, they had done a eight-month audit and issued a 1,400-page audit ruling, which essentially blamed our opponents for everything that was going on at the bank. So if they had just read that document, they would have realized that it was a boomerang that was going to come back to haunt them.

• 38:25Dax Shepard?

  But you know, you just painted a picture of the prison of his own making, which is when you are that harsh on everybody, as you say, of course, they have to get you to sign off on everything. So you have created a situation where it's back to communism, a centralized power, centralized decision-making.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  His first two terms in office, he was surrounded by people who were his previous peers and who knew him in a way that they could offer frank and honest feedback. But over the course of 20-plus years, those people have all retired and the ones around him now think of him as God and no one's going to ever give him any critical feedback.

• 39:00Dax Shepard?

  Well, he's also demonstrated his will a lot over the last 20 years. When he just arrived from St. Petersburg, that hadn't happened. So they also are inheriting what they now know about him.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 39:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you get there, you're put in a jail cell originally with two other guys, and there's just a fucking hole in the ground.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, the smell of which cannot be described.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  And the place, it's probably like a 50-year-old prison, which is not that old, but old enough. The smell of, imagine like a locker room standing on top of a sewer.

• 39:30Dax Shepard?

  I once shot a movie in Joliet, that prison, and we had scenes in the showers and just standing in the showers. I was like, oh, the fucking horrors. It's permeated in the place.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  So this is after an entire day of interrogation and then being driven around for probably six hours in Moscow in handcuffs in the back of a prison convoy truck in the dark. And we get to this place that I gather is a small temporary prison. And they put me in a cell, it must be midnight, maybe early morning. I take my belt and shoelaces and everything else, so you know, no self-harm. Put me in a cell with these two guys. And one of them comes up to me, he's like this big barrel-chested Russian guy, introduces himself. His name is Sasha. I say, my name is Michael. And he goes, oh, you're not Russian. Where are you from? And I said, I'm American. He goes, no fucking way.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  He's like, "A real one? Oh, that's so fucking cool." And then he goes, "What's the source of your misery?" "Kakao to bebe da." And I'm like, "Oh, my God, that's a very deep question."

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  And then I realized that's Russian for, "What are you in for?" And I didn't even know at that point. So he takes my piece of paper from the investigative committee, which says, "I'm being investigated for fraud of exceptionally large scale." And he goes, "That's so cool." Oh. And he goes, "How much was it?" And then I'm thinking, "Oh, God." So I didn't want to tell him. But the dispute was over 2.5 billion rubles, which is like $35 million. So I said, "It was 2.5 million." So I had 1,000 times less. And he was still like, "2.5 million?" Which is like $35,000. He's like, "Wow, that is so..." Okay, turns to the other guy and goes, "Respect."

• 40:57Dax Shepard?

  Ah.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  And the other guy was a young Chechen guy, who was there for armed robbery. He was the age of my oldest son. And he hardly said anything, but occasionally he would stand up and yell out the windows in the Chechen language. So the Chechens are very violent people, proud of their warrior codes and history. But in the prisons, they are their own kind of untouchable. But they were nice. And the big guy Sasha was giving me advice and then going on and chatting all night.

• 41:23Dax Shepard?

  Everything's great until you have to watch Sasha take a dump in the hole in the floor.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 41:28Dax Shepard?

  It's like, all going well. And so Sasha's like, "You know, I gotta go to the bathroom."

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. What are you thinking? Are you like, "I'm dead?" What is happening in your head?

• 41:38Speaker 02

  I keep thinking, "Decision makers in Russia have got to be pretty rational. This has got to be so self-damaging that this is gonna be one night in prison and I'll probably be home tomorrow night." I didn't know what they were saying about me. So the information blackout was one of the worst things about the first four or five days. I went to court the next morning and there were probably 100 journalists, paparazzi, TV crews, CNN, BBC. So I realized, "This is global news."

• 42:04Dax Shepard?

  And is it safe to assume they wanted that? That wouldn't happen if they didn't want it.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  In the courtroom, it was only Russian state TV. But going in and out, you could see the foreign journalists and others as well.

• 42:14Dax Shepard?

  I guess what I'm saying is they probably could have arrested you quite discreetly.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  They couldn't have arrested me quite discreetly because of the position I had in the investment community and other things.

• 42:23Dax Shepard?

  I could imagine interpreting that if it were me. Like, "The government wants us up. They want us to say we're gonna..."

• 42:28Speaker 02

  I think the FSB has such control, they don't give a damn about any of that. They have their own people inside every courthouse. They have their phones on the desk of every judge in the country that has no numbers on it. You get incoming calls from the FSB curators in the courthouse. And if you don't do what the caller says, you'll be in prison yourself very soon. So the degree of institutionalized control that they have, of course, they're not interested in most cases. There's another ministry called the Interior Ministry, which where the whole police force work. So normal criminals, thieves, killers are usually investigated by the MVD, the Interior Ministry. They're like the CIA and the FBI combined. Could be political or economic. I didn't really know any of this. I mean, at the time, it was such a foreign thing to me.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  I kept thinking, this is a brutal negotiating message. When I finally had the first interrogation, not by the investigative committee, but by the FSB people directly, they were basically saying, you need to admit that you're guilty and then we can make a deal. And I said, I'm ready to make a deal right now. If it's about this bank, let's just agree. We can give up control of the bank, we can do whatever, but I'm not going to admit guilt to a crime that never happened. And they were like, suit yourself. So I kept imagining, okay, they're going to put me into a prison or someplace where there's going to be really violent or aggressive people that are there specifically to make me want to admit guilt or do whatever I can to get out as soon as possible. And they send me to a prison called Matrosketshechna, which is a place just notorious with misery in Russia.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  And I didn't see it except from the inside because when you're driven inside a convoy truck, there's no windows or anything like that. Imagine what it looked like from the outside.

• 44:01Dax Shepard?

  And you get immediately put in cell 609.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  There's three days when I was in a solitary confinement, but that's when they were doing also blood tests, making sure I don't have any disease. But that's also when they were ramping up the interrogations and some intimidation. So then they tell me they're going to move me to my permanent cell and they tell me to sit around 10 o'clock at night. In that prison, the lights go out at 10:30. They don't ever go completely out because there's like a eye on the wall for monitoring all the cells. I started imagining they're doing this on purpose just before lights out and then there's going to be a really hard incident coming up. And they tell me to get my stuff out. I'm still wearing the same clothes I'd thrown on five days earlier that morning. Yeah. I finally had buttoned my shirt up right, but besides. Besides that, it was the same stuff I was wearing.

• 44:40Dax Shepard?

  How much contact are you having with counsel?

• 44:42Speaker 02

  I'd had one meeting with my lawyer in the prison since then. There were the two hearings in court where they sent me there where I was able to speak with my lawyers. And that was it. One of the guards, though, felt sorry for me and he gave me a newspaper where there was a two-page spread about my case. And having read that, I already started to feel better because I realized that even the newspapers that are controlled indirectly by the Russian President's administration were writing good things about me. And at the top, there were very prominent people in the Russian business community and even a minister in the government saying that this case needs to get sorted out quickly. It's very damaging for the investment climate. And they were basically saying, Mike is an honest guy. He's done a lot of great things for Russia. And if you read the substance, you'd realize why the people who were oppressing me were doing it.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  I was encouraged by that, but still very scared.

• 45:30Dax Shepard?

  And your lawyer, is his tone shifting? Is he not talked enough where he realizes, oh, this is going to be bigger?

• 45:35Speaker 02

  He was very frank and upfront that when you're dealing with the FSB, they're never wrong. They'll never admit a mistake. He described it to me, saying it's like a car with six gears going forward and none in reverse.

• 45:46Dax Shepard?

  And the people in this prison, there's been no acquittals. That's the history. Zero acquittals.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  This is so scary. What about your family?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  I had any contact with them. And actually, there were three times throughout the whole episode that I really cried openly. And one was during those five days when I was in solitary confinement. I start to write a letter to my family to give to my lawyer. And as I'm writing it, I am imagining my kids and my wife sitting there, reading it, crying, worrying about me. And I'm trying to reassure them that guards are all following the rules. But as I'm writing this and imagining a reaction, I just couldn't stop from crying.

• 46:25Dax Shepard?

  You get assigned on what day to your...

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Day five. So the guards come and collect me. All I have is my prison-issued stuff, which is an iron bowl. It looks like a dog pail for water and a tablespoon and a teacup, a bar of soap. And a towel that's like the size of a restaurant table napkin. I rolled all that stuff up in a mattress that's like a little bit thicker than a yoga mat, but it's an actual cloth mattress that's 20 years old and you can imagine.

• 46:51Dax Shepard?

  All the things that it's.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah. And so I roll that up under my arm. They're taking me up these stairs and in the stairs, there's a button they press and a siren goes off. And I call it in the book, the psycho stairs because the Alfred Hitchcock psycho, you know, the shower scene with that screeching, you know, knife, that creepy thing. Imagine that, except for even louder and creepier. That's basically what the siren sounded like going up these stairs. So my heart is pounding and they come to the sixth floor and cell 604, knock on the door three times and open the door. And I see seven men standing inside a space that's smaller than this studio here. And my heart stops for a second, but then they see me and they face this smile and they say, Michael. And the guards shove me in the room and the door shuts.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  I put my mattress on the one empty bunk. It's an eight man cell and the light goes out, but it's still sort of dim. But anyway, one of the guys says, look, come, let's sit at the table. There's like a little picnic table. They pours tea in these little rubber or plastic cups. And they all start to introduce themselves, you know, I'm Andrei, I'm Grisha, I'm Sanich. The last guy says, look, in this cell, everybody's a decent person.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Everything's going to be okay. And I was just like.

• 48:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  And the best part of my book is the story of our camaraderie in that cell. These were not the hardened criminals or killers that I was expecting. They were really decent guys. One was a deputy minister of culture of Russia. One was a general in the Russian army. One was a famous young computer hacker.

• 48:22Dax Shepard?

  Who I'm sure was working for the state at some point, no?

• 48:24Speaker 02

  Well, he missed his chance to make a deal. The usual story with hackers is the FSB will crack down on them and arrest them and then make them a deal or proposal. Come work for us or you can go to jail and they all go work for the FSB, basically.

• 48:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  And then three guys who owned construction companies. There was one guy among them initially who was a drug dealer that was later moved out pretty quickly. He was a great guy too, though, great sense of humor, actually. I can't say whether the guys were all innocent of the crimes they were accused of. Some were accused of corruption. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. If they were, it was arbitrary. Why would they be singled out? It was probably because some bureaucrat was being attacked. I know two of them were there because they were not the main target. They were being pressured to testify against the person who was the main target, and they refused to do so.

• 49:08Dax Shepard?

  Okay, again, I'm gonna go back to 60 Minutes. I've seen so many segments on Russia over the years, but one of them was this interesting figure of the most impacted major at all Russian universities is government administration, which is extremely telling. All young men in college are chasing money. And so for us, if you want money, you're not going to work for the government. But there, if you want money, it'd be good to be in the government.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  There are parts of the government in Russia, like the tax ministry, or the central bank, or the Ministry of Finance, where the people are super professional. If you look at their budget, they're really, really good. But the security structures, which is these blocks, people point to their shoulders when they refer to them because they wear shoulder boards in their uniforms. The FSB is the apex predator within the system. It's actually a very prestigious thing for young people to get recruited in and go do because you suddenly become very powerful, you become very useful to your friends and family. I think most of them are also patriotic, but they grow very cynical, and it's obviously known for deep corruption as well. But it's not only about corruption. Corruption is part of it. They think that life is corrupt, life is cynical. They think that all businessmen

• 50:20Speaker 02

  are guilty of crimes, too. Why should only businessmen be wealthy and not us? We're doing patriotic work to defend the country. And I think the promotion system there depends on the people who are willing to do the most ruthless stuff following orders for their superior. So if you want to progress within that system, you have to show that you're willing to be absolutely brutal towards people. That's what breeds a very toxic atmosphere.

• 50:41Dax Shepard?

  So you're in that cell for four months?

• 50:44Speaker 02

  For two months.

• 50:45Dax Shepard?

  And what is your optimism, your attitude? What's your sense of, oh, this is gonna be worse than I thought? Where are you at?

• 50:52Speaker 02

  I had the President of the United States calling, the President of Russia saying, you need to let Mike out. That didn't help, unfortunately, at all.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  It was Trump.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  That was when Trump was there, yeah.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  I'm surprised that didn't work.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  But I had this big fund with an army of lawyers supporting me. I had senior people in the Russian government itself supporting me. My cellmates didn't have any of that. And there was one guy there, Andre, who had been there for three years already, hadn't been tried or convicted of anything. I mean, you're literally guilty until proven innocent. And he wasn't even the target. He was being pressed to testify against the guy who was the target, and he refused to do so. And while I was there in those two months, he had his trial. He was given a 15-year sentence. The guy had two daughters, one of whom was born when he was there. So his wife was pregnant when he was arrested. So he'd only seen his three-year-old daughter once on the other side of a glass screen. He came back from the trial, realizing he wasn't gonna be able to hug his daughters

• 51:48Speaker 02

  till their 15th birthday. The guy was just totally shattered. The day he was heading off to the trial, he and I both woke up earlier than everybody. There was a TV in the cell that showed just the Russian state channels. But there was one channel that, in the morning, doesn't have programming, but it always just shows the nature scenes. It may have even been in California, but it was some sort of sea, rocks. There were seals swimming around. Everybody else in the cell is asleep, and the sound is off. And he's just there staring at the TV. He's got a tear in his eye, and I can imagine him thinking, if I ever get out of here, I'm never gonna take for granted the things that are the most beautiful in life.

• 52:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  When he came back, it was really devastating.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  But at the same time, there was some hilarious banter or jokes. The guys were all learning English.

• 52:29Dax Shepard?

  Swear words first.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Swear words 101, you know? We had kind of a competition about whose swear words were better, between Russian and English. Afterwards, they were kind of like, yeah, English is much cooler than I thought.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 52:41Dax Shepard?

  The times that I have made friendships under duress, those are really, really profound friendships.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  Especially when you're expecting the exact opposite. But just to see those guys' courage and support for each other. When you go from something that you expect to be scary and maybe even violent, and it turned out to find decent people, it is inspiring. Everybody was reading different things, trying to make the best of the bad circumstances. I kept thinking that I was gonna get out soon. On the TV, half of the commercials were from companies that I helped to start and found and develop. Whenever some new company would have something on TV, they'd be like, Mike, is that your company too? I'd be like, yeah, that's one of our companies. Oh, my God.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  And they also kept saying, how is it possible that our country could arrest someone like you who's done all this? We were able to get newspapers once I got into that cell, and I was being written about in the papers almost every day.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Emotionally, did you feel so betrayed?

• 53:40Speaker 02

  You know, when you're committed to some ideology or a religion, and then you find out that God doesn't exist. Or maybe it wasn't that extreme, but I believed in Russia. I wasn't naive. I saw the political situation was changing. I saw what the FSB was doing in some other cases, but I kind of thought those are all people involved in politics. It's oligarchs who were involved in those corrupt privatizations you were referring to, Dax, earlier. Surely, that couldn't happen to me. Only when you see the face of it up front and you realize how cynical the system is.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  But that's heartbreaking for someone who believed so deeply.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did feel betrayed by Russia. I had done so much to help this country. I believed in it. I was very proud of having kids who were half Russian. I was raising them to be equally proud of their Russian and American heritage, and it just felt so self-damaging. There was one guy who said, in the newspaper, when I was sitting in prison, a very prominent businessman in Russia said, if the CIA wanted to design a special operation to discredit and undermine the Russian economy, they could not have come up with a better program than to have Michael Calvi arrested. What I learned later, when I got out of house arrest, because I was two months there, then two years under house arrest. And then I was able to go out and meet some of the people who'd been supporting me. And then they told me exactly what happened two weeks after I was arrested.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  So I was still in Matroska Tishna in cell 604. There was a decisive meeting in the Kremlin. Some of the people who were supporting me were there. Some of the people supporting my opponents were there. Putin listened to both sides and realized they'd made a mistake. So he told them to take me out of prison and treat me with respect, but also then to dig and find evidence of a crime. Don't lose face and try to make some sort of a deal with the Americans and get something out of it. So I didn't know that at the time.

• 55:20Dax Shepard?

  The goal was to find you guilty of something. So they had a justification for having pulled you in in the first place. But if it had been exposed that this was completely fabricated charges, they couldn't live with that.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  That would discredit the whole system. Legitimacy of the whole system depends on those security structures being perceived to be absolutely.

• 55:39Dax Shepard?

  That's the goal.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:40Dax Shepard?

  Tell me about the trial. So were you awaiting trial for two years?

• 55:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, then I was under house arrest for two years. It's not like COVID where you could go out for a jog or go to the grocery store. You're literally able to leave the apartment only escorted by a prison official.

• 55:54Dax Shepard?

  Is your family allowed to come?

• 55:55Speaker 02

  My family was allowed to come. I was given a special phone with buttons, but it was put with a chip in it so that everything was monitored. My apartment had video and audio surveillance equipment installed by the FSB. So it's like being in a, in a fishbowl. The only people I was allowed to call or text were my wife and three kids, my mom, brother and sisters, and my lawyers. And that was it. So I couldn't zoom with friends. I was totally isolated from any friends, any contact whatsoever for two years. Internet and wifi were disabled. I couldn't stream anything.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  We could watch DVDs.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  This was in 2020 at this point?

• 56:28Speaker 02

  It was from 2019 till 2021. So it was through the COVID period as well.

• 56:34Dax Shepard?

  Was that comforting at all? Well, at least everyone else is fucked, yeah.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  I was being brought once a week from my apartment to the investigative committee during the whole COVID period for some further interrogations or other case-related stuff. And at the entrance, there was a guy with one of these like wands that would measure your temperature. And I would always glance at it and it would have a number that did not resemble a human being's temperature, either in Celsius or Fahrenheit. It'd be like 12.7, 56.3, or something like that. So after like the third month of this, I kind of lean over to the guy and whisper, I says, "Does that thing even work?" And he goes, "Apparently not."

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  It was a classic Russian bureaucratic, like they just follow the procedure, but it's just a show, basically. It doesn't mean anything, basically.

• 57:18Dax Shepard?

  You just don't want to stick out. Okay, so tumor first or trial first?

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Tumor first. I had had what I thought was a normal lipoma, like a fatty tissue, whatever, the back of my thigh. My British doctor had said, "It's a harmless lipoma. You can have it removed if it bothers you cosmetically." I said, "Yeah, I'll do it, but I'm kind of busy right now." And underneath your shorts, it didn't really bother me that much. Anyway, I'm under house arrest. You got nothing else to do when you're awake for 16 hours a day, except read and exercise. So I'm exercising a lot and my legs getting go- I'm thinking, "My legs are getting stronger," but I noticed the lump getting stronger too. I thought, "Maybe it's related to the exercise I'm doing." It starts getting bigger and bigger. I'm asking to get permission to go see a doctor and they hem and haw about it. Finally, after a few months, I get permission to go see a doctor who takes a quick look at it and says, "That is not a normal lipoma." So he orders a surgery to remove it the very next day.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  And when the surgeon comes out, he says, "Look, I'm seeing some of these things. I'm afraid it looks like a malignant tumor." And I thought, "It couldn't be malignant. It's been in my leg for three years. If it was, I'd be dead." But they sent away, did a biopsy, and it was a grade one liposarcoma. It was the size of a pear.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  But the good news is it hadn't yet metastasized. And so the tissue around the tumor was clean. I still did radiation therapy, but it was a bit surreal.

• 58:34Dax Shepard?

  And you couldn't do an MRI because you had the ankle bracelet on?

• 58:36Speaker 02

  The ankle bracelet, exactly. So they were able to do some like ultrasounds and things like that, but not the MRIs. I'm a little bit blind.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  But it was yet another thing. It felt like fate was definitely conspiring against me.

• 58:48Dax Shepard?

  Very long time. What was the nadir of that experience?

• 58:52Speaker 02

  It just kept going on and on, you know, I kept thinking it'll be out in three months. There was a deal being worked on in March, April of 2020. Couple of months after that was going to be May 2020, the 75th anniversary of the end of World War II. And Putin had invited a number of world leaders to Moscow, including Trump, to celebrate the old alliance from World War II that defeated the Nazis. Some friends and supporters of mine were pushing an amnesty and it would be the kind of thing that Putin likes to do before some grand event like that. Make a humanitarian gesture. It would have been a way for them to say, well, he was guilty, but we're letting him out in the spirit of 1945 and our alliance. And there would have been a face saving way to end the story. But then COVID hit in March. All the leaders canceled the visit.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  So there was no PR value from it. We had to kind of go back to. So there were things like that that were just constant. Get your hopes up.

• 59:41Dax Shepard?

  Meanwhile, your business is thriving in Russia.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, it made me wonder why I worked so hard all those years, but the most profitable years we ever had were the two years when I was away.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  Among our investments were two companies we had invested in 10, 15 years earlier, which went public during that time in the US and the market values went up dramatically.

• 59:59Dax Shepard?

  Talk about a very hard and real example of like, oh, I can't buy my way. This money's useless.

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  But you know, also, especially when I was still in the prison, it's kind of like an onion and you peel it back and you say, okay, well, this thing that's on the outside, like money, I'll give that up if I have to. What's in the very middle of the onion is your family. You want your kids to respect you as an honest man. You know, you don't want to go down as a criminal and unethical. What is in that very middle part? So I had already mentally shaved off the outer layers of the onion. It was like, if I get out of this, I have to give up all my money.

• 1:00:33Dax Shepard?

  But you have your dignity in your kids' eyes.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  On the inside, if the kids are healthy and happy, then the rest, okay, let's see what I can get back from the rest.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Dax Shepard?

  I'm fast forwarding ahead, but in any way, like someone who does survive a real bout of cancer, has it given you a kind of new view of life and a new gratitude and a new appreciation?

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Well, the cancer and the case together, absolutely. I remember Andre looking at that TV and the scene. You have to live every day and appreciate. Every day it's a cliche and it's so hard to forget it when you get stuck in your busy life and your routine and your plans. But when you go through a combination experience like that.

• 1:01:08Dax Shepard?

  Well, you think you're planning all these pillars that you really anchor your your safety and your identity to. And one of the pillars, yeah, is your health. And one of the pillars is financial. One of them is your freedom. And you remove those. And I just imagine it gets quite threatening just your identity.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, just existentially.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  You know what was also really nice is seeing the reaction of your friends. Almost all of my friends proved to be really, really good friends during that time. So when I was not there to be able to help my family, they stepped up. It's almost like going to your own funeral, seeing who shows up and who you can really count on. That was in the inner side of what's most important in life. And knowing you'll come out of that with that was a very reassuring epiphany.

• 1:01:47Dax Shepard?

  So what was the trial like?

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  If you've ever read Friends Kafka, it was just like that. It was a farce. We decided that I would give testimony at the very beginning. Because it's kind of a complicated case. It's a repo, which, you know, people who worked on Wall Street, it happens 100,000 times a day. But to a judge and many journalists, it's a very complicated thing. So I was going to give testimony at the very beginning to explain the basic outline would happen, refer to various expert opinions. And my lawyers prepped me. So I gave the testimony. And then when the prosecutor stands up to cross examine me, she says, is your name Michael Calvi? Said, yes. And she goes, Okay, no further questions, Your Honor. So then everyone in the courtroom just burst out laughing and realized that they have no questions that they can ask.

• 1:02:26Dax Shepard?

  Is there a juror? How is it?

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  No, it's not a jury. It's just a judge. The judge decides.

• 1:02:30Dax Shepard?

  Are there no jury trials in Russia?

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  There are some. It's very rare. The expert appraiser, who was appointed by the prosecutors to come in and give an opinion about this, concluded that the bank made like a $4 billion profit on the transaction that they were accusing me of. So there should have been enough to disqualify the case immediately. The prosecutor just lets all the testimony come. Even the witnesses for the prosecution were saying there was no crime.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  What in the world?

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  And at the very end, the prosecutor stands up and says, in her closing arguments, during this entire trial, not a single witness testified that a crime took place. And that just shows what a well organized group of criminals were dealing with here. But then she proceeded to say, but on the other hand. These people have done important and valuable work for the Russian economy. They've created many jobs. And so we think they should be given just a probationary or suspended sentence. She's turned to me to smile as if to say, you have no idea how lucky you are and how rare that is that you're getting off the hook without jail time. And I leave the courtroom, I'm getting texts. By that time, I was able to communicate by phone. My British and American friends are all saying, I'm so sorry. Because it went across the news wires immediately.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  So to be convicted of a crime that never happened is so unjust. My Russian friends were texting me saying, congratulations, man, you did it.

• 1:03:41Dax Shepard?

  You did the impossible.

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  There's like mission impossible, basically.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that shows such a difference of the way the two countries operate.

• 1:03:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you pretty quickly divest everything from Russia?

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Well, I get permission to leave finally another four months later, five months later. And I leave in January 2022, a very stressful day. If you saw the film Argo about when they got the guys out of Tehran, it felt like that on the airplane. It was a huge relief to be back with my family. But I had promised my lawyers that I would go back at least once to register and then leave again.

• 1:04:14Dax Shepard?

  I don't know.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  I went to see my family. I went to see some friends and close business partners. I went to visit my kids and their schools. They're in college already and at their dorms, which I'd missed out on for three years. High school graduations and a lot of stuff like that. So I was trying to catch up on that. But I started to worry that if I don't go back, my colleagues, who were also caught up in the same case and had suspended sentences like me, might get sent to prison again.

• 1:04:38Dax Shepard?

  But you also know of the many stories of people who've returned to Russia.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  Right, so I saw people in the State Department who were saying, do not go back. And I'm like, but if I don't go back and four people go to prison because of that, how will I look at myself in the mirror every day?

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  I check with my lawyers, I check with various people. They're like, look, the same system that allowed you to leave, it's still there. So you can probably come back, quickly register and then leave.

• 1:05:02Dax Shepard?

  Probably.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Oh my God, if you're my dad, I am so mad.

• 1:05:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:07Speaker 02

  So I'm weighing the pros and cons and I kind of come down on the side that I have to go back. I cannot live with myself if I don't go back and then my colleagues get arrested because of that. What a cowardly thing to do. Living comfortably in my home in London would be unbearable. So I buy tickets to go back February 23rd, 2022 with my wife, who has aged parents in Moscow. That was the time when you needed COVID PCR tests or whatever. And I'm literally in a taxi going from my home to Geneva Airport. And I get the email with my COVID results, saying I'm COVID positive. Oh, yes. So my wife and I spent five minutes confirming she's negative. Her parents are waiting for her. So we decide, okay, she's gonna fly anyway.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  We stopped the taxi at the nearest town and I take a train back home. And she goes on to the airport and she wakes me up in the morning, 6:00 AM, saying, have you seen the news? No, that night, Russia invaded Ukraine and the Russia-Ukraine war started.

• 1:06:02Dax Shepard?

  That night?

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  That night. So my wife flew there and literally that same very night, it's a whole horror show of the Russian-Ukrainian war. So if I had gone back, it's quite possible that they would not have let me leave and I might still be there today. It was an incredible stroke of good luck. And my wife flew back three days later, was able to come out. And so I obviously haven't been back in Russia since then.

• 1:06:23Dax Shepard?

  And then ultimately you guys got out of business-wise, which was very costly.

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, the war obviously makes everything that happened to me seem absolutely trivial and tiny in comparison. It's one of the worst human tragedies, not just for Ukrainians, especially for Ukrainians, but also for Russians. I mean, how many hundreds of thousands of young Russian men's lives destroyed? Huge refugee exodus.

• 1:06:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, almost zero training, half the people they're sending over there.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  It's literally like World War I, trench warfare, but now with drones. It's just absolutely brutal conditions.

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:07:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so in the wake of this whole experience. When you look back and you reflect, what red flags had you ignored?

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  I mean, writing the book was very cathartic in that respect because I had a lot of time to think about what went wrong. I started off with a diary of the two months that I was in prison, which I felt was just such a unique lens into Russian society that itself tells a story of an entire book. But when I started sharing that with friends of mine who were journalists, they encouraged me to tell the story of how I came there in the first place and why I was so optimistic. But it also gave me a chance to reflect on everything I got wrong. It's not like we were blind or naive. We were just biased because of our immediate environs and also the people that we dealt with. If you would have spent time with the young entrepreneurs that we were backing, you could not have been an honest person and concluded that Russia was worse off than during the time of their parents

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  or grandparents' generation. If you imagine what their Soviet grandparents lived through in their lives and saw these young people with their iPhones and T-shirts.

• 1:08:07Dax Shepard?

  Going on dates to Pizza Hut.

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, by that time Moscow had amazing restaurants, fantastic theaters and culture. The parks were amazing and clean. Even from when I first moved there in the Yeltsin period, the housing had been totally broken down and people were not being paid. So things had improved materially for almost everybody in the country. The average wage was eight times higher than what it was back at that time. It felt like economically the place was better off, but also in terms of people's access to information in the world, the people I was dealing with were just leading much better lives than their grandparents. So what I didn't appreciate was how deep the security services' control over people's lives had become. The FSB's control over life in Russia today is way deeper than it

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  was at the time of the KGB because of technology. Manipulate people's information and the degree of control they have inside all the big institutions of the country. And when you come up face to face with the people, you really see how cynical they are. Probably patriotic too, but cynical, corrupt, and ruthless.

• 1:09:09Dax Shepard?

  When you were seeing other businessmen get arrested. Throughout your three decades there, what were you telling yourself?

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Some of them were oligarchs who had behaved really badly towards us at the time. So I was thinking, well, I'm not surprised that that guy got taken down because he was pretty corrupt himself. And I didn't shed tears when some of those people were arrested. I also felt like the Yeltsin era was so chaotic that they needed a swing of the pendulum towards greater state control. I just didn't anticipate what it would mean to go to a system that was controlled by an institution like the FSB with a president who comes from that institution. It's not just him. It's a cast of people who really believe that they are the anointed ones and they're a brotherhood who are loyal to each other.

• 1:09:55Dax Shepard?

  They're charged to run this society and they think the best way is with total information and control.

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  They're paranoid, they're cynical, they think everybody in the world is also cynical. They don't hate the CIA, they admire it, but they don't believe in people's movements or things like that. But ultimately, they're paranoid and conspiratorial. The traditional toast that they would have at a party is death to traitors. Instead of saying cheers, it's death to traitors.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Do you regret doing so mu... Like, when you say that technology is part of the reason that they're able to do this monitoring, you're kind of a part of it.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  I don't, but...

• 1:10:31Dax Shepard?

  But it should.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  No, I don't. The reason is that the companies that we helped to create do empower people to get information for themselves instead of relying on state TV or something else like that. So through Yandex, even now, if you put in Alexei Navalny, you're going to get videos from him as an opposition figure or something else like that. So now, after the war, Yandex is also controlled directly by the state or by state-affiliated people. But it's better than the situation would have been had it never existed. You know, the companies that succeeded the most from that technology area were ones that were very meritocratic from the beginning, they were anti-hierarchy, they were like tech companies anywhere in the world where if the leader of the company has a stupid

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  or bad idea, everybody in the company should feel free to criticize it or say it's wrong. So when you think about it, it's actually the exact opposite of the FSB. The exact opposite of the system which Putin has created. So he had this kind of bottom up thing that was happening. While there was the top down thing, when it came to the major geopolitical conflict that happened, it was very obvious which side was going to win. But the fact that those success stories did exist, there's a generation of people that saw the success of those that learned from that culture. And it's still there. So it's kind of like seeds that are underground, but at some point those seeds will come out and flourish again. They also improved lives of people, right? So you could say Russians are our enemies, but if you invest in businesses that improve people's lives, I don't think you can feel bad about it.

• 1:11:57Dax Shepard?

  Now, it's rare that I would get to ask somebody who spent thirty years there for a temperature reading on this, so I don't want to miss out on this. My first question is really, what is the average citizen think of Putin? Like, I think we find ourselves in an interesting situation, but we have the luxury of art being disseminated across the globe, right? So I'm watching Saturday Night Live last weekend. The first sketch is this hilarious roasting of Trump. So I go minimally, maybe people around the world know that it's not like we're here pumped. We're sending a message through our art. What is the average citizen of Russia, do you think? And I want you to break it down socio economically. I imagine there's a difference.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was a fantastic TV program in the Yeltsin era. So however corrupt it was, there was a flourishing of different TV platforms and other things. And it was modeled off of the spitting image was a UK one with like the dolls was a political satire, making fun of the British politicians.

• 1:12:49Dax Shepard?

  With puppets.

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  So there was one in Russian called Kukly, and they skewered in a funny way that was respectful, but humor is one of the most powerful ways to convey essential truths. And there was one episode, it was after the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko in London, who was a KGB officer who became in their eyes a traitor. He was killed with polonium in London, this huge scandal. But anyway, on this Kukly episode, it's Putin, he's meeting with someone, and Putin says, "Would you like some tea?" Because the guy was apparently poisoned through polonium in his tea. Putin like slides the teacup across the table, and the guy's shaking, he's like, "No, sir, no, no." And he like runs out of the room. And I think a week later, Kukly's license was cancelled. It was the last episode that they showed. So, there was a whole slippery

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  slope of those little moments when things started to change and the direction going the opposite way.

• 1:13:39Dax Shepard?

  But what do the citizens think? Do they love Putin?

• 1:13:41Speaker 02

  No, I think there's three broad groups. There's an opposition category, that's probably fifteen to twenty percent. They're like ideologically opposed to Putin.

• 1:13:51Dax Shepard?

  Are they mostly young people?

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  Not only, but mostly young people. And that's where the biggest number of refugees has been since the war, people who just decided to leave. Probably between half a million and a million Russians left since the war, but there's still quite a few people like that inside Russia. But if you stand up and protest, or you go to a protest meeting, now you go straight to jail. It's easy for people in the US to say, "Why aren't more people protesting?" There's a second group that's probably also like twenty percent that are people that are passively supporting the regime. They probably wish to see Russia as more globally connected and friendly with the West, but they also are very grieved by things that the West has done, like the Iraq War, Afghanistan. After things like that, they will never be convinced that NATO is a defensive alliance. They see the pressure

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  from the West to bring neighboring countries into NATO. There are people like that. Essentially, they're Europeans who wish that Russia would be part of Europe. They long for the days when they could travel to Europe, but they feel a little bit sympathetic to maybe Putin's view. And then there's the, I would say sixty percent, some people refer to it as the swamp, but it's essentially people who are classic Russians, mostly living in small towns. They get a lot of their information from state TV. They would say that those are the rules of the jungle.

• 1:15:04Dax Shepard?

  He's a tough son of a bitch.

• 1:15:05Speaker 02

  If you come from a gang, and the gang has certain rules, you break those rules, you expect to pay the price. So that's kind of the way they would look at it. I would say they're mostly people that, if they were given a choice to vote against everyone, they probably would. They mostly wouldn't say that they're political. But they're very Russian. They don't believe that Russia belongs in the West. They think that Russia is different from everything else. They're Slavic. They don't believe that the neighboring countries around Russia really have the right to be independent because it was all part of the Russian Empire. There's some from within that that are ideologically believing, but most are people that don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. They care more about their job. Their living standards have improved in the last 20 years, especially

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  the older people in that segment, don't want to go back to the early 1990s again, so they would be nervous about political change. You can go into a lot more detailed segmentation within that.

• 1:15:58Dax Shepard?

  What would you guess Putin's personal wealth to be?

• 1:16:02Speaker 02

  I don't think if you're Putin, you need to own that much because you can control everything that you can see.

• 1:16:08Dax Shepard?

  Because there's these rumors, right, that go around?

• 1:16:09Speaker 02

  He's the wealthiest guy in the world.

• 1:16:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  He could be, if he wanted to be. He could push a button and become the wealthiest guy in the world by Saturday.

• 1:16:16Dax Shepard?

  But that's not to say he has.

• 1:16:17Speaker 02

  There's a lot of people who've made immense fortunes under his rule, and maybe they've said to him, "Whenever you would like, you're 50%. Just let me know." But no one knows. I think that he's got everything he could possibly want. He doesn't need to think about having assets because he basically controls everything.

• 1:16:32Dax Shepard?

  Is the average citizen there aware of the grift?

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  Russians probably tend to think that everybody is corrupt in the world, and it's natural for leaders. In the czar's times, regional governors didn't get salaries because they were expected to enrich themselves off of official business. Corruption was just enshrined as part of the business model.

• 1:16:51Dax Shepard?

  What do you think the average Russian's stance on the invasion is?

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  When you say average Russian, that's like saying, "What does the average American think about Trump?" Right?

• 1:16:59Dax Shepard?

  Well, I would say 50% hates him and 50% loves him.

• 1:17:01Speaker 02

  Russia's not quite that binary, but maybe there's people who are more nuanced. The people from within the business elite mostly believe that the war was a big strategic mistake, but the West provoked Russia into it by promising NATO membership, and they would welcome any end to the war. Putin has a lot of room to end the war and declare victory because of his control over Russian media and information. There's a couple of red lines that he has, but I think Zelensky has much less. Room for maneuver, having mobilized this country to fight what seemed like an unwinnable fight and fighting it to a stalemate on the basis of no compromise, total victory, we're going to get back all of our land. It's very difficult to pivot from that and say,

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  okay, now let's find a compromise.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Dax Shepard?

  Well, there's also a principle at play. The Russians have no prin-- well, I guess their principle is they were going to join NATO. But the principle for Zelensky is you invaded us, so you can leave and that's when it's over.

• 1:18:00Speaker 02

  If they compromise with Russia now, this is not going to be the end of the story.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  If you're left without security guarantees, they're going to come back. And for Europe, it's an issue too. You have countries like the Baltics, which could be deeply vulnerable, maybe not to invasion, but to coercion and threats and other things like that.

• 1:18:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, if you're the neighboring countries to Ukraine and they go down, and we know what Putin's ultimate goal is, he is completely humiliated by the collapse of the Soviet Union, and he would very much like to have a full Soviet Union again. I think he's very Hitler-esque in his desire to reassemble the empire.

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  I understand why you would say there's some resemblances to Nazi Germany. I don't agree with you completely. I think the Hitler analogy is always dangerous.

• 1:18:46Dax Shepard?

  I'm not saying he's going to commit genocide. I'm saying he felt very dishonored by his countries.

• 1:18:51Speaker 02

  He did. That's absolutely true. But I also think when he first came to power, he imagined Russia as a European country and thought that by the end of his reign, Russia would be firmly anchored in Europe. He just thought he'd be able to do it on terms that would restore quote unquote Russian greatness. If you remember during the Iraq War, it wasn't just Putin who was opposing it, it was also Jacques Chirac and Gerhard Schroeder.

• 1:19:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  You know, him standing up or whatever with these. So there was a series of things that happened also in the bigger world that made him reappraise and think that America is hypocritical and doesn't follow the same laws that it often tries to force. And I think there's some truth to that. But the other side is that many of these countries that were part of the former Soviet Union, they may love the Russian language, they may love Russian culture and literature, but they look at Moscow as a source of misery. And that's something that most Russians don't appreciate. Most Russians would say, look, we were the biggest victims of the communism. More Russians were sent to the Gulag than any other nationality from the former Soviet Union. So, don't blame us. It was the communists, or it was Stalin, who was a Georgian, not Russian. But for people in Ukraine, or other places like that, they look at it as, you know, Moscow,

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  they're arrogant, they've been the source of misery for us. And if we have a choice to pursue a European future, that's what we really want to do.

• 1:20:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  So that's essentially what the conflict is. I think that we contributed to the problem through some of these mistakes, like Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. And it was a mistake, I think, to try to offer Ukraine to be in NATO, because Russia would inevitably view that as a provocation. But even if we didn't do that, I think there would have been a war anyway between Russia and Ukraine.

• 1:20:22Dax Shepard?

  He wants Ukraine back, period. He can hang it on NATO, but he already went into Crimea before there was the NATO threat.

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not going to try to argue with you or change your mind about Putin, but that happened in 2014, after an uprising, which was a genuine people's uprising against the Russian favored leader, Yanukovych, and in favor of wanting Ukraine to be part of Europe. But there was a deal that was reached at the end of a long street movement, it was signed off on by the US, Russia, Germany, others. And basically, the protesters reneged on that. They forced Yanukovych out immediately anyway. And I think that was among the things which were like the red lines for Putin, where he then thought, "I just cannot deal with the West anymore, there are bitter enemies." Another moment was the killing of Gaddafi in Libya, who was a person he would have known by the people's uprising.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  So, he just developed this view that the West, these are neocon regime changers, and they're coming after me, they're coming after us. And I can understand part of that, but I also think he just fails to understand that he did more to create Ukrainian nationalism than any other human being.

• 1:21:26Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  The more he talks about them being not a people, the more the Ukrainians are like, "We are, and get the hell out of here." So I do think that there was an inevitable conflict brewing up by the Ukrainians' desire to pursue a European future, and by Putin's view of that as something that was anathema.

• 1:21:41Dax Shepard?

  Existential to Russia.

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so what is the path forward for Russia? How does Russia rebuild any kind of good faith that they're a great business partner? That they're trusted geopolitically. Second question to that, aren't there several of these oligarchs who have now lost hundreds of billions of dollars? I'm shocked there hasn't been a coup to assassinate him by these people.

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  Again, if you understand the degree of control of the FSB and the fact that that's the ruling cast, the oligarchs and people like that are not in the ruling cast. They operate and live at the pleasure of the FSB and every one of them know that at any time, what happened to me, it could happen to any one of them. So the chance of a palace coup or something like that, I think is close to zero.

• 1:22:22Dax Shepard?

  God, I hate what a terrible example of how totalitarianism works quite well.

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  With modern technology.

• 1:22:29Dax Shepard?

  And even seeing like in our own country, the notion that, and I'm not on the rooftops about Trump, but the notion of disbaring lawyers from visiting state property, getting hundreds of millions in free legal services from other law firms. I mean, some of these things are so Russian. The way the lawyers have snapped into line blows my fucking mind. The universities almost did and they just barely decided to know fight. But that was questionable. I could see where Harvard was going to bug. And I was like, he doesn't even have the tools at his disposal that say Putin has. And I'm already really discouraged by how quickly people fall in line with a real threat.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  You're right to be concerned about it because it's what separates us from countries like Russia. We should keep things in perspective and realize we're a million miles from that. We do have courts that are mostly independent and they've even in the last four months have proven themselves to be maybe controversial in some cases, but to be really good. And we have a press that reports on things transparently. So I'm confident in our institutions that we're going to get through this, but it's going to be a stress test and it's not a hundred percent guaranteed that we'll come through it as sound as we are.

• 1:23:35Dax Shepard?

  I think the system will win, but I've been shocked with some of the hits and injuries the system did already withstand.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  I'm happy to hear you say that.

• 1:23:44Dax Shepard?

  We had a lot of fights in the beginning of that.

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  I love that look you just gave him right now.

• 1:23:49Dax Shepard?

  That was "I told you so." It was a little bit of an "I told you so."

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  One thing I do agree with, though, I agree with Trump about the need for urgent negotiations to end the Russia-Ukraine war. Time is not on Ukraine's side. If your goal is not to punish Russia but to save an independent Ukraine, there should be negotiations as urgently and as immediately as possible. And Ukraine needs help to do that because, like I said, Zelensky has painted himself into a corner and he needs cover to be able to make a reasonable compromise. So to me, the question is, how do you end the war between Russia and Ukraine permanently so that Ukraine survives as an independent, secure nation where both sides can declare victory? And I think there is a scope to do that, but we're a long way from it. It may not happen this year, but there's a way for Ukraine to accept the loss of some

• 1:24:37Speaker 02

  land without recognizing it as Russian territory, but agreeing that they'll never try to take it back. For the US to take NATO membership off the table, but provide some equivalent type of security guarantees for Ukraine to be fortified military. It's already the fourth most powerful military in the world today, Ukraine's, and their military manufacturing capacity is by far the biggest in Europe. And for there to be a path for Ukraine to be a member of the European Union. If that happened, it would be a game changer. Russia would not have agreed to that prior to the war, but I think there's a chance they could agree to something like that today. And even if it meant a loss of 20% of Ukraine's territory, if they come out of it with a path towards European Union membership, then I think the kids of those Ukrainians who died or sacrificed will have achieved nothing.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  So I think it would be a strategic victory for Ukraine, even though it's a massive human and economic defeat for both sides. This is the kind of war that both sides are the losers from. They're both worse off. It was a disaster from the very beginning.

• 1:25:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh, boy. Well, what a thing you've lived through, Michael. I encourage everyone to read "Odyssey Moscow: One American's Journey From Russia to Prisoner of the State." I'm glad you got out alive because that's literally always on the table.

• 1:25:46Speaker 02

  Thanks. It is great to be here. It was very cathartic to write the book and cheaper than having a therapist.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  You should still probably, you know, I don't know, dabble.

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  I think that in some ways you can write about something with more honesty than you could even talk because you have time to think about it and you really can process your thoughts. And when I was especially under house arrest, being monitored all the time, I had so much time to process all this that it was actually very healthy for me to do this and write a book in an honest way. And it's been a great way to also draw a line under that 30 years of my life and move forward to the future.

• 1:26:16Dax Shepard?

  Who's gonna read the audiobook?

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  There's a wonderful voice actor named Arthur Moria who did it. So it's on Audible now. He did a great job. I narrated the epilogue and the acknowledgements section, but he made a great effort to pronounce all the Russian words, right? But his voice is much more beautiful than mine.

• 1:26:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but I do wonder if you would have started crying trying to read that out loud. We've had a lot of actors on who have written books.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  There's definitely some of the moments like Andre's sentencing and things like that I probably would not have been able to get through.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Do you think that there's a chance you have a little bit of Stockholm syndrome around Russia?

• 1:26:48Speaker 02

  Well, you may say that because of some of my...

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:51Speaker 02

  I'm more of an analyst than an activist by nature. I'm not like a political activist for one party. My business has been about analyzing things very objectively. I may be too empathetic in that I'm willing to see the other guys or persons' point of view.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  In my 57 years, I lived 23 years in the United States and 34 years abroad. So I also see how people look at Americans. I see all the great things about America that makes us all proud to be Americans, but also the things that we've screwed up.

• 1:27:19Dax Shepard?

  It's a long list.

• 1:27:19Speaker 02

  I think when I look at Russia, it's the same thing. I also have a huge admiration for Russian people, even today. Of course, even though I wouldn't go there, it would be unsafe very much for me to go back. And I hate the system that controls the country, but I still love Russian people. I love so many things about their culture, about their sense of humor. It's maybe the only example of ruthlessness or harshness combined with sentimentality and generosity. It's a strange mix, but for me, it's already very dear.

• 1:27:47Dax Shepard?

  I tell myself I understand through reading lots of Datsyevsky and loving it. There's some detached, borderline sociopathic humor that I really respond to.

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  They're just very genuine, which makes them good friends. When you do something bad or wrong... They tell you there's no superficial nicety. When you ask a Russian friend, how are you doing? They're not going to say, fine. That's not a word that comes after that. It's usually, huh, my back is killing me or my sister's not talking to me.

• 1:28:12Dax Shepard?

  The truth comes out.

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, no sugar coating.

• 1:28:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, well, Michael, this has been incredibly interesting. Thank you so much for coming to talk about the book.

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, you guys have fascinating jobs. You get people from so many different backgrounds.

• 1:28:23Dax Shepard?

  We had a sex expert earlier today. She goes, are you doing anyone next? I go, yeah, a guy was in a fucking Russian prison. It's like what a span in one day.

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  I'm just looking at the books around the room.

• 1:28:32Dax Shepard?

  Learning about parts of the vagina earlier today and then now this.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is a wild job. You're right.

• 1:28:37Dax Shepard?

  No, it's the greatest.

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:28:38Dax Shepard?

  All right, be well.

• 1:28:39Speaker 02

  Thank you both very much.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Oh, you're wearing the same shirt.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  You guys are wearing a very cute Ted Seager shirt, which I also own and will wear soon.

• 1:29:00Dax Shepard?

  Good colors, right?

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  Great colors.

• 1:29:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I love the color. Back to your shirt, though, which is much cooler.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  The Camel cigarette shirt for people who are listening.

• 1:29:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm trying to think, I guess if I wanted to put it in terms of fast food.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:29:15Dax Shepard?

  Tell me if you like this comp. Like, let's say Aaron and I always ate at Wendy's or McDonald's. And then he went only rallies. That's not a good comp.

• 1:29:26Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:29:27Dax Shepard?

  Really only Popeyes.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  My mom loves Popeyes.

• 1:29:30Dax Shepard?

  Popeyes is delicious.

• 1:29:32Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Is, are you trying to say it's bad?

• 1:29:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I love, wait.

• 1:29:36Speaker 02

  No, Popeyes is delicious.

• 1:29:37Dax Shepard?

  I love Popeyes.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  No, but.

• 1:29:39Dax Shepard?

  I am trying to make an analogy that like, which is, I can agree, arbitrary. You're already breathing burning tobacco into your lungs. Might as well add some fiberglass crystals or whatever.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:29:52Dax Shepard?

  The menthol provides. Some beaver, beaver anus and what other, whatever else. This is how it kind of happened at my, when I started.

• 1:30:02Speaker 05

  Started Newport's. I, I had the bar and

• 1:30:09Speaker 05

  everyone is such a

• 1:30:13Speaker 05

  a cigarette bummer and ha, it, it is flat out annoying. I mean, you, I had to go through a whole nother pack just bumming cigarettes every time I was working.

• 1:30:23Dax Shepard?

  Because you get all these bozos who don't really smoke, so they're not carrying a pack of cigarettes, but when they drink.

• 1:30:27Speaker 05

  When they drink, they smoke.

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  And so they asked the bar, the bar owner.

• 1:30:30Speaker 05

  Well, well, yeah, slash bartender.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:33Dax Shepard?

  Slash fellow drunk at the bar.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  You did it all.

• 1:30:37Speaker 05

  I was a man of many.

• 1:30:39Dax Shepard?

  You were a client, you're a customer, a proprietor, a server and an owner.

• 1:30:44Speaker 05

  One of my friends, I was commenting on it one night and I'm like, these motherfuckers. And um, was bumming the cigarettes. He goes, dude, no one asked me for cigarettes in your bar because everyone's white. And um, and this particular friend was a Mexican dude. He goes, don't you ever notice when you hang out at the bar down the street, which I frequented a lot, which I was about the only white person that hung out there, mostly Mexican and black people. No one ever bummed one off me because no one wanted a camel.

• 1:31:16Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:31:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I decided, I just started enjoying them and I'm like.

• 1:31:23Dax Shepard?

  This would be the only frugal decision you've ever made in your life.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  That's smart.

• 1:31:29Speaker 05

  But soon after I started smoking them and it was very true, no one, um, you got a cigarette? Uh, yeah, it's a Newport. I said that all the time. Uh, nevermind.

• 1:31:39Dax Shepard?

  I'll pass.

• 1:31:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, no cigarettes.

• 1:31:41Dax Shepard?

  I'm not even a smoker.

• 1:31:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I was like, oh my God, this is awesome. But not long after we sold the bar and now I'm only hanging out at the bars where. People smoke Newport, so you know.

• 1:31:56Dax Shepard?

  Didn't work out.

• 1:31:56Speaker 05

  And then I was already hooked on fiberglass and all that.

• 1:32:00Dax Shepard?

  There was also Monica, as you, as you become more and more saturated as an addict, it's harder to keep bumping it into a novel direction.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:32:10Dax Shepard?

  And so you're smoking, you know, when you're getting drunk for the night, like you're smoking two packs of cigarettes in like eight hours.

• 1:32:17Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:32:18Dax Shepard?

  And if you were doing drugs, like soon as drugs were in the mix, we would always switch to Newport.

• 1:32:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:32:25Dax Shepard?

  You would add menthol into the mix.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Cause the cooling.

• 1:32:28Dax Shepard?

  Just because it was different and you were doing something different and you just kind of, you needed something novel. So Newport's were always in rotation.

• 1:32:37Speaker 05

  Newport's were great with cocaine.

• 1:32:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, great pair.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  I think I would like those because I like tingly, tingly menthol.

• 1:32:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. You can almost trick yourself that it's a little bit healthy.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:51Dax Shepard?

  It's the preferred cigarette of koala bears because they eat eucalyptus.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  And they have chlamydia.

• 1:32:57Dax Shepard?

  And they have chlamydia, but don't mix up metaphors here.

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  That's not the same. They're not connected.

• 1:33:02Dax Shepard?

  I'm not saying Newport smokers have chlamydia more.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:33:04Speaker 05

  But now that you brought it up, this, I've always wondered, um, did they, I heard this a long time ago, did they ban menthol cigarettes in California?

• 1:33:16Dax Shepard?

  I think so.

• 1:33:17Speaker 05

  What the fuck are people doing?

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:20Speaker 05

  This is a big Newport state.

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  I don't even understand that because like.

• 1:33:24Dax Shepard?

  Well, Newport, California is probably named after Newport, California.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:33:28Dax Shepard?

  You're supposed to think about like the beach and fresh air, I think. And didn't like, it had like those little orange lines on it. They almost seem like maybe there was supposed to be sunshine.

• 1:33:38Speaker 05

  Beach commercials.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  They are banned 2022.

• 1:33:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I've, I mean, I know people tend to adjust, but I don't know how.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Um, Newport's are named after the seaport city of Newport, Rhode Island.

• 1:33:52Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that makes more sense.

• 1:33:53Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:33:54Dax Shepard?

  East Coast, still maritime.

• 1:33:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, I can, I can picture the ads now. Definitely East Coast.

• 1:34:00Dax Shepard?

  Get on that fishing boat, go out, go out for that long.

• 1:34:03Speaker 05

  Oh, catch a couple scrot.

• 1:34:05Dax Shepard?

  Find a white squall or two.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it says it's, it has a Spinnaker sale. That's the logo.

• 1:34:13Speaker 05

  Yes, it is a sale. Sure is.

• 1:34:15Dax Shepard?

  I'm trying to think, what were the backup menthols? Kool is in the mix.

• 1:34:19Speaker 05

  Kool Salem and Marlboro had one.

• 1:34:22Dax Shepard?

  Gone.

• 1:34:23Speaker 05

  All the menthols are banned.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  And can, it says Camel.

• 1:34:26Speaker 05

  Camel had a menthol, yeah.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:34:28Speaker 05

  That came way later.

• 1:34:29Dax Shepard?

  I, you know, unfortunately, I have to kind of thank them for this because this is what also banned um, wintergreen dip.

• 1:34:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:34:36Dax Shepard?

  This was a part of all the whole sweeping no flavored tobacco. And so I was having to get them smuggled in by my father-in-law or it was, I was always inconveniencing someone to get them for another state for me. And it helped because when I.

• 1:34:50Speaker 05

  Again?

• 1:34:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I haven't dipped in a year and a half.

• 1:34:54Speaker 05

  It's been that long, okay.

• 1:34:55Dax Shepard?

  I've dipped twice on the bus.

• 1:34:59Speaker 05

  Well.

• 1:35:00Dax Shepard?

  Cause duh, it doesn't count at all.

• 1:35:02Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:35:03Dax Shepard?

  And you were with me one time. I dipped just on the last leg of our grocery store too. I needed to do something.

• 1:35:09Speaker 05

  I remember you decided to have one.

• 1:35:11Dax Shepard?

  And then I also do when I drove back from Nashville, I picked up a little tin. Do your kids care about you vaping?

• 1:35:17Speaker 05

  They're not vocal about it if they do.

• 1:35:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:19Speaker 05

  Oh, and by the way, I find vapes every month in my house.

• 1:35:23Dax Shepard?

  That are.

• 1:35:24Speaker 05

  That are not yours.

• 1:35:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yours, okay, okay, yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:35:28Speaker 05

  Yeah, we have discussions about, but it's, yeah, do as I say, not as I do.

• 1:35:33Dax Shepard?

  Right, which doesn't work.

• 1:35:34Speaker 05

  I don't know where to go.

• 1:35:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:36Speaker 05

  Um, I'm just like, you're not allowed to do it. And I'm like, you can't do it in the house. That's absurd.

• 1:35:41Dax Shepard?

  Which.

• 1:35:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's fair.

• 1:35:43Dax Shepard?

  For the record, Aaron was allowed to smoke in his house from eighth grade.

• 1:35:48Dax Shepard?

  In eighth grade, we were allowed to just casually bang darts at the table.

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  Well, that's what you can say, like, I'm too far gone, but you're not.

• 1:35:57Speaker 05

  I think they.

• 1:35:58Dax Shepard?

  You're salvageable.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so you can't.

• 1:36:00Speaker 05

  And so far, no one likes it and it's always a friends.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:36:06Speaker 05

  But um.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  That's what I used to say about drinking.

• 1:36:09Speaker 05

  I mean, if it was a.

• 1:36:11Dax Shepard?

  Did you get caught drinking and what did your parents?

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  No, I would just be like, oh, I went to this party, oh, people were drinking.

• 1:36:17Dax Shepard?

  And you were too. You were saying to this to them while drunk?

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, like after the fact. Like I was always like playing a game with them.

• 1:36:25Dax Shepard?

  Like, I'm gonna be honest to a degree, so you trust me?

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:36:29Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Now. Did you ever come home drunk and have to talk to them?

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  I never came home drunk.

• 1:36:36Dax Shepard?

  You didn't? You just would spend the night out?

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  In high school, yeah, I would always be out.

• 1:36:40Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh, in or out?

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  Apparently, my brother, oh, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I will. When my brother was living with my parents, I was an adult.

• 1:36:48Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  He, I guess, twice, like, came home so drunk.

• 1:36:54Dax Shepard?

  Shitfaced.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Yes, and like, acting crazy.

• 1:36:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:36:58Speaker 01

  He claims, and maybe, maybe?

• 1:37:01Speaker 05

  That spiked?

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, he said, he said for one of them, he was like, I really think something happened.

• 1:37:07Dax Shepard?

  Straight women aren't dosing.

• 1:37:09Speaker 05

  Who's wasting their drugs on them?

• 1:37:11Dax Shepard?

  Exactly.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  Oh, I see.

• 1:37:13Speaker 05

  Because we used to say that to any of our friends, I would go, like, you just got shitfaced. There's no other, like, someone would be like, I had to have been roofied. We're like, no one is wasting their roofies on you.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  Right, that's fair.

• 1:37:27Dax Shepard?

  Unless they're gonna follow you home for, like, their shits and giggles, watch you stumble, but...

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, or you drank out of somebody a girl's drink.

• 1:37:36Speaker 05

  There you go.

• 1:37:37Dax Shepard?

  That could happen.

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  Or someone accidentally spiked the wrong drink.

• 1:37:40Speaker 05

  I fucking hate people.

• 1:37:42Dax Shepard?

  Could also.

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  Right, I know, it's so horrible.

• 1:37:45Speaker 05

  When Ruthie just did a, had a trip to Nashville with her girlfriends, a fun trip over, like, Mother's Day weekend. None of them are mothers, they're partying, and I was like, can't believe I'm saying this, but please keep an eye on your drinks. I'm like, oh, yeah, you just keep, it comes up in my feed for some reason.

• 1:38:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:38:05Speaker 05

  I'm like, oh, boy.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  We just had an Armchair Anonymous story of a girl who...

• 1:38:09Speaker 05

  You did?

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, on her big trip she won.

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:13Dax Shepard?

  To go on a cruise.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  Backstreet Boys cruise.

• 1:38:15Dax Shepard?

  She had that as an adult.

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  Which is great.

• 1:38:19Dax Shepard?

  Some actor had a story who had been sober, and his story of why he relapsed was he was kidnapped in Palm Springs, and they made him do an eight ball. And I remember Tom Arnold and I were together when we heard that story.

• 1:38:33Speaker 05

  That's a great story.

• 1:38:34Dax Shepard?

  And we were like, please show us the men that are, want to get rid of their eight ball so bad that they kidnapped.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's true.

• 1:38:45Dax Shepard?

  You must abide by the rules of drugs, to some degree.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  But anyway, he was cra- he was out of his mind, apparently, and he was, and they made everyone scared.

• 1:38:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay, but the police weren't called?

• 1:38:56Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:38:59Speaker 03

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:39:11Dax Shepard?

  I don't know why that immediately triggered this memory of being up at Bree's house in the summertime and I used to get hammered with her dad and her brother like every night. And these things can turn, right? Like somehow toughness comes up, blah, blah, blah. And then these two rightly so, were both taking you. And we had a huge wrestling match in the middle of the night. It was me versus the father and son. And they definitely got the best of me by the end of it. And then you gotta wake up the next morning. We all eat breakfast and we all know we had a like a kinda cross the line tumble last night. And they feel

• 1:39:56Dax Shepard?

  great because they beat me.

• 1:39:58Speaker 01

  Sure. Oh, I just imagine Bree like looking out the window and being like, oh.

• 1:40:02Dax Shepard?

  No, I think they heard like furniture and stuff getting smashed around the room at like 3:30 in the morning.

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  Wow. Anyway.

• 1:40:11Dax Shepard?

  Anywho, well, update. We did not, you'll be relieved to know, we did not tackle the hiking trail on our electric motorcycles.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  You didn't? Cause you were too tired, Aaron?

• 1:40:22Dax Shepard?

  I have a different explanation. Tell me. Well, we, we had a glorious dinner. Eric, Nate, Weekly and I, and we, I don't know, that was a ten man.

• 1:40:33Speaker 05

  It was? Look, I mean, it sounds repetitive, but.

• 1:40:39Dax Shepard?

  So fun. Food was delicious.

• 1:40:40Speaker 01

  Honus or no?

• 1:40:42Dax Shepard?

  No honus.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:40:43Dax Shepard?

  No honus. And then we had taken a very special car I have that I don't, I rarely ever, ever drive. And on the way home, we took kind of the scenic route. So there'd be lots of twists and turns. And there was a dude in a Mustang that wanted to party with us. Not as in an aggressive way. I just think he was pumped about the car and he wanted to.

• 1:41:04Speaker 05

  And someone else was going fast. That's how it happens.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:09Dax Shepard?

  So we had a little, we had a little action through Griffith Park that was very hair raising and exciting. And we, we ditched them.

• 1:41:19Dax Shepard?

  The competitor, I know you don't care. But that definitely satiated my adventure spirit. Like, we got home, I was like, yeah, we had a, we conquered something.

• 1:41:28Speaker 05

  It was great. We left them in the dust.

• 1:41:31Dax Shepard?

  We felt brave when we went to bed. So we didn't end up going, and also probably saved by the enormous week we had. I was just too afraid to be tired the next day. TBD though, we still have tonight and tomorrow night.

• 1:41:42Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  I was on a walk and I heard some really loud rumblings outside and I thought it was you guys, but it wasn't. I always tend to, first I eye rolled, that's my immediate reaction, can't help it.

• 1:42:01Dax Shepard?

  So selfish and loud.

• 1:42:03Speaker 01

  Yep, like, oh, fuck this person. And then I'm like, oh, but it might be Dax. And then I look and then it's not. And then I have compassion for that person. And I'm like, oh, that's somebody else's friend.

• 1:42:15Dax Shepard?

  Ah, that's nice.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  Okay, so I feel overwhelmed.

• 1:42:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. Congratulations.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  By the world.

• 1:42:23Dax Shepard?

  Tell me.

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  So, I don't know. I mean, I know we talk about this a lot, but social media is feeling so intense.

• 1:42:35Dax Shepard?

  What is it doing? Cause we have different algorithms.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:42:38Dax Shepard?

  Nothing's happening in mine.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  What? I mean, yeah, I'm like, there's so much stuff about what's happening in LA and I'm like, ah, God. And then, and then immediately it's like, all these people died in a plane crash.

• 1:42:53Dax Shepard?

  Well, India, ding ding ding.

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  And I'm like, oh my God, like, it's just like a non-stop, it's horrible. And then I put that down and then I turn on Mountain Head.

• 1:43:04Dax Shepard?

  The film Mountain Head?

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  The movie Mountain Head, which, Easter egg, we have somebody on who's in that movie upcoming. So, um, I wanted to watch it and it.

• 1:43:17Dax Shepard?

  It scared you too much?

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  It was, it was so intense. And it is about all these tech guys who basically like decide they want to control the world. And everything gets so out of hand.

• 1:43:29Dax Shepard?

  They release a product that gets away from them immediately.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:31Dax Shepard?

  And then they just decide to kind of maybe embrace where it's gonna take them.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it, and like, they're all. Horrible. They're such disgusting pieces of shit.

• 1:43:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  And, and I'm like, but it's like, it's too real, but it's like too intense. And then I try to take a break to go to Instagram and then that's horrible. And that's all, that's really real.

• 1:43:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  And I, and I was up so late.

• 1:44:00Dax Shepard?

  With anxiety?

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  I guess. And I even took magnesium and it didn't work.

• 1:44:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Speaker 05

  A what? Magnesium?

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. The hard stuff.

• 1:44:09Dax Shepard?

  That's like saying I am. I even had a warm glass of milk. That's supposed to knock you right out.

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  Magnesium does make people sleepy.

• 1:44:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think it's part of it.

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  But it doesn't make, I guess, me sleepy.

• 1:44:20Speaker 05

  You ever try searching some playful, fun stuff on Instagram? Try to change your algorithm a little?

• 1:44:28Dax Shepard?

  You can also reset your algorithm, which I've done once.

• 1:44:32Speaker 05

  I'm big on Corey Feldman. I know you've been there.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  Sure, we've discussed that.

• 1:44:37Speaker 05

  He disappeared for a lo- well, actually, you know what? That might be a different kind of anxiety.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:43Speaker 05

  That might cause more anxiety. Um, never mind.

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  I like the babies that are adults, um, like the cast of The Off- and not him, but the cast of The Office, but they're babies. I love that.

• 1:44:58Dax Shepard?

  The AI babies.

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  AI babies.

• 1:45:00Dax Shepard?

  You don't like the- I love the Trump one.

• 1:45:02Speaker 05

  Trump baby.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that one, it's fine.

• 1:45:04Dax Shepard?

  It's really funny. Like, to picture him as a baby, there's something about it that I find to be extra funny.

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  It's very, it is funny, but I just like, don't want him in my-

• 1:45:13Dax Shepard?

  You don't want more of him?

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just, I just, I want more Steve Carell as a baby.

• 1:45:21Speaker 05

  Have you ever seen-

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  Christopher Walken.

• 1:45:23Speaker 05

  Either of you as a baby?

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  No, and I'm actually, I'm a little upset about it. You know, they have like Rogan and Theo Von as babies.

• 1:45:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I've seen Theo Von as a baby and he's so cute. He has Theo's haircut.

• 1:45:35Speaker 01

  They make them so cute. It's so fun.

• 1:45:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's crazy. AI knows exactly what cute is.

• 1:45:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:42Dax Shepard?

  Cause all of the creations are so cute. If it's an animal, if it's a baby.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  I know, like John.

• 1:45:50Dax Shepard?

  Isn't it funny, like, we probably can't through our own restriction even describe what a cute baby is or a good looking person. You're just kind of not allowed to do it.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  It's also hard to do.

• 1:46:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's just interesting that AI can look at our lives as it exists online and they immediately go, we know what you think is cute. It's this.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:10Dax Shepard?

  And you know too.

• 1:46:12Speaker 01

  You know when you see it, but like, I don't know if I could describe cute baby.

• 1:46:19Dax Shepard?

  I'm making a broader observation that as we move away from like, it's just become completely un-PC to talk about people's looks. It's like somehow anti-progressive or something to be talking about looks. Do you agree?

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably, yeah.

• 1:46:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and so it's not like there's gonna be a big verbal record. If you go back to the 80s, people just spoke very clear, like Brooke Shields is so hot because of this or whatever the hell they did. But even the stuff we won't say out loud, that it can, it knows.

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess I know what you mean, but I, I think it's almost deeper in that they do know, they know something that we don't, like they know what a cute baby is and I can't really put words to it other than like, I love it when they're chubby.

• 1:47:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:06Speaker 01

  But like their faces, their faces, I can't, I mean, I do know when I see a cute baby and when I see one I don't think is very cute.

• 1:47:15Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 1:47:15Speaker 01

  But I don't think I can, I don't think I could look and be like, oh, it's because of this.

• 1:47:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, this one's making me sick because of this.

• 1:47:22Speaker 05

  Have you ever told someone like, no, you really are lucky that you have a cute baby?

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, I've, and then I, I have too. My cousin just had a baby and I'm like, oh my God, you're so lucky that you have a cute baby. And she's like, I'm pretty sure you would have told me if he wasn't cute. And I'm like,

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  No, you would not.

• 1:47:45Dax Shepard?

  I don't think so.

• 1:47:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:47:48Speaker 05

  But then I was like.

• 1:47:49Dax Shepard?

  You just said like, oh, he's got a good grip. You just find some. Yeah, look at all that hair.

• 1:47:54Speaker 05

  Right, yeah.

• 1:47:55Dax Shepard?

  There's plenty of stuff to say.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  There's stuff to say. Also, you just lie. You just say like, oh my God, so cute.

• 1:48:00Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and even an ugly baby is quite cute.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:48:03Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:48:04Speaker 01

  And there's something kind of cute even about the baby being kind of ugly. Yeah.

• 1:48:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  Speaking of cute babies, I saw something so cute this morning. Not ugly babies, cute babies.

• 1:48:16Dax Shepard?

  Yes, being very clear.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  Um, my friend from high school, she posted, um, this series of stories about her baby. I guess her baby's maybe like two. She is so, so cute. But she was like, posting all these pictures of drawings the baby had drawn or colored, and it was all brown. Like, everything was brown. And she was like, can you guess what her favorite color is? And then it's just like so many pictures of brown. And, and then she said, but the reason is so cute. And then she played this video and she said, what's your favorite color? And, and she says, brown. And she said, why is it your favorite color? Oh, I'm sorry, I should say, this baby is half Asian.

• 1:49:01Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:49:02Speaker 01

  And so she said, she said, my eyes are brown, my hair is brown. Like, she liked that about herself.

• 1:49:09Dax Shepard?

  Nice.

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  Which was so sweet. And she said, what do you call yourself? And she said, Brown Elsa.

• 1:49:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Brown Elsa.

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  It was so, it really made my heart melt. And I DM'd her and I said, I love this so much. And she said, she's so proud of it. I hope she never stops.

• 1:49:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I do too.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  Anyway, I just thought that was heartwarming.

• 1:49:30Dax Shepard?

  That is nice. I like to hear it. Should we do some facts?

• 1:49:33Speaker 01

  Sure. Okay, some facts for Michael Calvi. Fact number one.

• 1:49:41Dax Shepard?

  When you say couple, do you really mean two?

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't have a lot. I wasn't gonna be honest, but I am gonna be honest that I'm not through the episode. So there might be some facts left on the table.

• 1:49:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that's okay.

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  But we've had a busy couple of weeks and hanging on by the.

• 1:49:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, just barely hanging on.

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  Just barely. Okay, an Oklahoma accent, what does it sound like?

• 1:50:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I am curious.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Features both the Midlands and southern dialects, often described as a milder southern twang or a Midland accent with a bit of southern influence. You might hear a light drawl, dropped ing sounds and the use of y'all. Okay, now I'm gonna play a little.

• 1:50:22Speaker 04

  So there's rough instead of roof and there's crick instead of creek.

• 1:50:30Speaker 04

  Hey y'all, my name's Damian and I'm from Oklahoma.

• 1:50:34Dax Shepard?

  Hey y'all.

• 1:50:35Speaker 04

  With the exception of five years I was in the Marines and my first year in TV, I've lived here my whole life. I've lived everywhere from the small towns to the, well, does Oklahoma City count as a big city? And today I'm gonna teach you how to talk like an Okie.

• 1:50:49Speaker 04

  So the first thing you'll notice about the way we talk is that none of our words have OU in them. We mainly replace OU, boomer, with ER. For example, you would never hear an Oklahoma mom say, "Go and get your shoes on." Instead, you'd hear your mom say, "Go and get your shoes on."

• 1:51:05Dax Shepard?

  We say that.

• 1:51:06Speaker 04

  And if you don't listen to her, you will end up in the ER.

• 1:51:11Speaker 04

  Also, very important, none of our words end in ING. For example, you'll never hear me say, "I'm forecasting great weather for getting outside this weekend."

• 1:51:20Dax Shepard?

  Forecasting.

• 1:51:20Speaker 04

  Instead, you'll hear me say, "I'm forecasting great weather for getting outside this weekend."

• 1:51:26Speaker 04

  Another thing that you'll never hear in Oklahoma are words that end in OW. For example, instead of having pillows and windows, in Oklahoma, we have pillows and windows.

• 1:51:38Dax Shepard?

  That one's triggering for you.

• 1:51:41Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's great. That's a

• 1:51:43Speaker 04

  In Oklahoma, our preferred beverage is sweet tea. But here, we make it one word, sweet tea. And if you wanted to sound extra oaky, you'd say, hey darling, you want some sweet tea?

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  He winked.

• 1:51:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he did? Okay, that's part of the Oklahoman charm.

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  Okay, to me, it just sounds completely southern.

• 1:52:03Dax Shepard?

  It, to me, it sounds southern light. Like, if, if, if, if I think of the most extreme, like, Appalachian accent, maybe, and let's, we're gonna give that a 10. This, to me, is like a three or four.

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:52:17Dax Shepard?

  And then, what was really interesting is you and I interviewed someone recently from Duluth.

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  Georgia?

• 1:52:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did. From Armshare Anonymous. That was so exciting.

• 1:52:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I was sitting there, I didn't call it out, but I'm sitting there listening to both of you, and I'm like, yeah, neither of you have an accent, which is so interesting.

• 1:52:34Speaker 01

  Suburban.

• 1:52:35Dax Shepard?

  So it's like, even when you say Oklahoma, I bet if you're in some spots in Oklahoma City, you don't, and then even where I lived in Michigan, people had a bit, a lot of those.

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:46Dax Shepard?

  Cause so many Kentucky migrants in that big migration, and I have a bunch of them, and I have some southern things.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  You have a bunch, you have words that give you away.

• 1:52:55Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  But you don't overall sound very midwestern.

• 1:52:59Dax Shepard?

  But when you were at this particular beach called Blood Beach, a couple towns over, a lot of fights there, that's why it's called Blood Beach. The dudes that were hanging out there and cut off jean shorts and drinking Mountain Dew and a Vuitton issue with no laces, they're full southern. It's almost was like this way to be more masculine where I grew up.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's like if you were, this thing I always talk about is like, if, if you embrace

• 1:53:28Dax Shepard?

  that you're white trash.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:30Dax Shepard?

  Which is like your only defense. I applaud it. It's like, yeah, yeah, you all think I suck and I'm gonna lean into it. I think you'd go even further. So it was very socioeconomically broken down in where I grew up.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:53:42Dax Shepard?

  And some kids that were like, are you from the south? No, I'm just, I'm poor.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, poor.

• 1:53:47Dax Shepard?

  Remember when you were a kid to be, I don't know if you ever had that fear, but like, being poor was a, like, that was the thing.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Well, sure.

• 1:53:55Dax Shepard?

  They're poor. It gave you such humiliation to be poor.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  I didn't have that, but I did have, I want the things. That these other people have. But I didn't associate it with being poor because we weren't. So I guess that's why.

• 1:54:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, probably most people at your school in Duluth weren't poor either.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  I had friends growing up.

• 1:54:19Dax Shepard?

  Your mall doesn't have a food court and it has restaurants.

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  No, no, that's that was not there when I was growing up.

• 1:54:26Dax Shepard?

  It's really gone up, huh, since you.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's also in a town over. But Gwinnett Place Mall was the mall and it was indoor and there was a food.

• 1:54:37Dax Shepard?

  Sparrow's Pizza.

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, all the Panda Express. But I don't remember what I was gonna say.

• 1:54:46Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. That's fine. You don't always have to remember.

• 1:54:51Speaker 01

  So the definition of a recession. A period of temporary economic decline during which trade and industrial activity are reduced. Generally identified by a fall in GDP in two successive quarters. That's what he said. He said two successive quarters, but he said point oh one.

• 1:55:10Dax Shepard?

  Officially marks a recession. Isn't there also something with employment rate that's gotta be one of the indices?

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  Oh, a recession is not officially declared until after the fact.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  While there's no single agreed upon definition. Economists generally use the two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth rule of thumb.

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  Okay, it seems like there should be a real definition. That's annoying. Econ is annoying. Like, they want, they try to make it so complex.

• 1:55:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think it is complex.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  Well, some things aren't like, but they make it. They don't have to be, but they've made it complex. It's not Buddhist.

• 1:55:53Dax Shepard?

  It's not. There's just so many forces. That predict the outcome of the economy.

• 1:56:00Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:56:01Dax Shepard?

  It's a complex system.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  It is a complex system. Okay, I looked up who has the longest standing ovation in Congress because he said. It was.

• 1:56:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeltsin?

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  Yes. It's not here. Every time I Google it, what comes up, it it keeps. Everything that's coming up is about Netanyahu. I guess he got like a huge standing ovation.

• 1:56:23Dax Shepard?

  And pissed off Biden.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It caused all this controversy. It says he got twenty standing ovations in forty seven minutes.

• 1:56:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  So that's a lot of sitting and standing.

• 1:56:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, people on their feet.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:39Dax Shepard?

  I wonder what was the Churchill's when he came famously, that would be a

• 1:56:43Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 1:56:44Dax Shepard?

  Good comp.

• 1:56:45Speaker 01

  I know. How long was Churchill's longest standing ovation for Congress?

• 1:56:56Dax Shepard?

  Ovation has to be related to ovaries.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  Ovulation.

• 1:57:00Dax Shepard?

  Ovulation, ovaries, ovum.

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  Uh, maybe.

• 1:57:03Dax Shepard?

  I'd love to have a linguist.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  The most notable standing ovation likely occurred during his address in nineteen forty one where he spoke for thirty two minutes. Maybe they stood the whole time.

• 1:57:14Dax Shepard?

  We will fight on sea, we will fight in the air, probably that speech.

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  Doesn't say how long, thirty minutes.

• 1:57:22Dax Shepard?

  You're never gonna watch that doc, it's such a bummer.

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, but you're right. Oh, and then I looked at Peter Thiel's investments. Cause you said it would be the equivalent, basically.

• 1:57:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, throwing Peter Thiel in prison.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Wide range of ventures, including Palantir. It says a big data company.

• 1:57:46Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  And startups like Airbnb, Stripe, and SpaceX. He's also involved in Founders Fund, a venture capital firm that has backed companies like SpaceX and Palantir.

• 1:57:57Dax Shepard?

  I think he also did Tesla.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  Well, SpaceX.

• 1:58:00Dax Shepard?

  He's done a few Elon things. I think he was involved with the company he sold to PayPal.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it says PayPal, LinkedIn, and Facebook.

• 1:58:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, Facebook. He made a couple bucks on that one.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  Likely, yes.

• 1:58:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:16Dax Shepard?

  Those are the big whammies.

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  Those are the big ones.

• 1:58:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. This is funny, just venture capitalists as rock stars is just a new phenomenon that was created by the internet in the nineties. It didn't even exist. There's no like famous VC people from the seventies or eighties.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:58:31Dax Shepard?

  Or early nineties.

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true.

• 1:58:34Dax Shepard?

  Because the payoff wasn't there. Companies didn't hundred X back then. GM would slowly gain market share and Coca-Cola would slowly gain market share. No one, you didn't have these 10,000 X returns like the first Facebook people first, first in on Facebook, they're like in the 10,000.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  But like Microsoft.

• 1:58:54Dax Shepard?

  But again, that's 90s. That's part of their, their first tech boom.

• 1:58:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:58Dax Shepard?

  And so that's when it's born.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  Oh, you're saying even then? Yeah.

• 1:59:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but like pre 90, oh yes, because Microsoft's 1975.

• 1:59:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, your birthday.

• 1:59:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, 9/11, best Porsche ever.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:11Dax Shepard?

  911 Turbo, I'm sorry, 911 Turbo.

• 1:59:13Speaker 01

  Most people don't hear 9/11 and think positive thoughts.

• 1:59:18Dax Shepard?

  They should. They need to take a ride in a Porsche 9/11.

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  A rebrand. Um, all right, that's it.

• 1:59:25Dax Shepard?

  All right, love you.

• 1:59:26Speaker 01

  Love you.

• 1:59:41Dax Shepard?

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