478 - Briefcase Challenge

This week, Georgia covers the Teacup Poisoner and Karen tells the story of Maria Altmann’s fight to reclaim Gustav Klimt’s masterpiece, Adele I. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.

• 0:10Karen Kilgariff?

  When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.

• 0:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.

• 0:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.

• 0:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 0:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 0:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 0:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.

• 0:51Karen Kilgariff?

  If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine.

• 0:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Generously spritz each foot before bed, and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this, and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.

• 1:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.

• 1:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 1:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:32Georgia Hardstark?

  To my favorite murder.

• 1:33Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:36Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the podcast we've been doing for 9.3 years.

• 1:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's so true.

• 1:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Most people do seven.

• 1:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Years?

• 1:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And bail.

• 1:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Or podcasts.

• 1:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Seven podcasts.

• 1:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Do you think anything's changed? How have you, how have you changed at all in the past nine years?

• 1:53Karen Kilgariff?

  What has changed? It's a real business. It's a business that we have to do in a business-like manner.

• 2:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It is a business setting. I'm wearing a business dress from the 70s today.

• 2:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, you are.

• 2:04Georgia Hardstark?

  To do business.

• 2:04Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 2:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Or 80s, probably.

• 2:06Karen Kilgariff?

  How did it feel to do business in a dress like that?

• 2:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Powerful.

• 2:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah?

• 2:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there's like a power play to this dress and to dressing like a business lady.

• 2:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:15Georgia Hardstark?

  And having like a, not a suitcase.

• 2:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Briefcase?

• 2:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Briefcase.

• 2:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't have one, but that would be great.

• 2:22Karen Kilgariff?

  When you get, when you get one.

• 2:24Georgia Hardstark?

  When I get to that level.

• 2:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Lock it down.

• 2:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Once I get to the level of briefcase, I remember my dad coming home from work when I was a kid and like go in his briefcase and smell it and there'd be all these like paperwork. It was just exciting. Dad's briefcase.

• 2:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Dad's briefcase. What was Marty doing when he had a briefcase?

• 2:40Georgia Hardstark?

  He worked at Century 21. He was like a real estate salesman guy. He was a salesman. So we'd come home from these business trips and we'd open the briefcase and there'd be candy bars for us in it.

• 2:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And it was like, fuck, yeah.

• 2:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That's kind of funny because that just made me realize that there was a part of me that was disappointed that my dad did not have a nine day, like, you know, when you're a kid and you just think your life is supposed to be exactly like the kids at school's lives?

• 3:06Georgia Hardstark?

  You were disappointed that your father was a hero firefighter and it was boring to you.

• 3:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It was like, why doesn't he come home with a tie on?

• 3:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Why doesn't he? So at some point, he was gonna get a business degree. He was gonna finish like his unfinished college.

• 3:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So he was gonna get a business degree. And so I would go in and look at his homework. And the example from his homework was something about opening a shoe store. And I was like, you're gonna open a shoe store? Downtown? And he was like, it's not a real shoe store.

• 3:34Georgia Hardstark?

  It's practice.

• 3:34Karen Kilgariff?

  And I was like, what kind of shoes can we get? And I was so excited to be like, that's what normal people do.

• 3:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but then they don't work. My dad opened a hot dog franchise in Lake Arrowhead in the eighties and guess what? It's not there anymore.

• 3:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's just one of the many things you can do, like restaurant business. You can be a Realtor. You can be all these things. You can also be a civil servant and just leave the house for 48 to 72 hours a couple of times a week and roll back in.

• 4:01Georgia Hardstark?

  But the point is you have a briefcase. And that's the most important part.

• 4:05Karen Kilgariff?

  For some reason, that is what adulthood means.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's signals.

• 4:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Responsibility.

• 4:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It signals something.

• 4:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. How about I make a challenge to you?

• 4:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 4:14Karen Kilgariff?

  On the next episode of My Favorite Murder, and people that watch the video of this will be able to see it.

• 4:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh oh.

• 4:19Karen Kilgariff?

  You and I bring in our briefcases that we're gonna start using at work.

• 4:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Find a briefcase challenge?

• 4:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Briefcase challenge.

• 4:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it.

• 4:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you out of the closet in Atwater Village? Literally the first thing I thought of.

• 4:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they'll have a briefcase. You can't buy it online.

• 4:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Nope.

• 4:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Can it be a purse that looks like a briefcase?

• 4:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It's whatever you would like to go along with your empowerment. You know, this is my work empowerment clothing, which means you can't make me dress up.

• 4:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 4:46Karen Kilgariff?

  I am so powerful at work that I literally wear the same UG boots.

• 4:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Cause I can.

• 4:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Every single disgusting day.

• 4:53Georgia Hardstark?

  See, my power move with that, in that vein is just don't come in. I just feel so powerful that I just don't come in when I don't want to.

• 5:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah. It's a choice.

• 5:03Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, briefcase, briefcase, next episode.

• 5:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it would be fun.

• 5:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, let's do it.

• 5:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause I also have now an exact briefcase in my mind that I'm going to try to find.

• 5:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course you do. I can see it. Is it ox blood leather?

• 5:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it is.

• 5:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I knew it. How did I know that? I fuck, that's what, it's supposed to be someone else's initials on it? Great.

• 5:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. A little worn and kind of bent up at the bottom.

• 5:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 5:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Are we both now trying to find an ox blood briefcase or was yours different?

• 5:28Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just, that's what comes to mind when one thinks of eighties women's. We've gotten so far off the deep end on briefcases here.

• 5:36Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the deep end. We should have named, if we had named this podcast The Deep End, we would have never gotten in as much trouble as we used to.

• 5:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Or as much money. Okay.

• 5:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have the facts of podcasting.

• 5:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right. Speaking of, what a weird coincidence that last week I mentioned to you Valerie the Doxen.

• 5:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 5:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Who had gotten lost on Kangaroo Island, Australia. Not even lost.

• 6:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Kangaroo Island.

• 6:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think she was lost. She was fucking.

• 6:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Thriving.

• 6:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Thriving and living her best life. She escaped.

• 6:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The clutches of capitalism. You know what I mean?

• 6:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I do.

• 6:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And like the clutches of like conformity and she was like, absolutely not.

• 6:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Just running.

• 6:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Running free.

• 6:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Running free and being taken care of by animals on that island.

• 6:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. It's gonna be a movie. So she was on her own for 529 days and then I mentioned her and then like two days later she got found.

• 6:26Karen Kilgariff?

  She was on her own for two years.

• 6:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Basically.

• 6:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you see a picture of her? She looks really happy. She looks really proud of herself. You little fucking bitch.

• 6:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, she should be.

• 6:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Very bad girl. Very bad girl. But try telling her that.

• 6:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So much footage of her just running.

• 6:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. And then like night cam footage of her like eating the food that's left for her being like, fuck you.

• 6:45Karen Kilgariff?

  But they say animals were grooming her because she is looks so good. She's not all fucked up looking. So they were like, animals on that island were definitely taking care of Valerie.

• 6:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Valerie, what a sweetheart. Well, I'm happy for that. So good job, everyone. Good job, everyone.

• 6:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Good job, everyone, including and mostly Valerie.

• 7:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But now we have to go into one of the most dramatic corrections corner ever.

• 7:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Another Australian issue. Everyone in Australia, listeners, I want you to know. And maybe I'm wrong about this too, but here in the US, we say emu, right?

• 7:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Emu, it just sounds like a meme.

• 7:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Australians, we understand it's the way you say it. We're arguing that anybody should say it. Say it the way you grew up hearing it in your region.

• 7:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Because to us, to me, I'll say.

• 7:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Me too.

• 7:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Saying emu, sounds like you went to London for a semester. And now you're back with your beret and your different pronunciations.

• 7:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, we kiss on both cheeks. I forgot that we're not, oh my God, I spent the two weeks in Paris. Yeah. So I say emu, we say emu here.

• 7:45Karen Kilgariff?

  But also completely understand, but you can't expect us to say it because that would be like if we were like, oh, the aluminium foil.

• 7:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Or, oh, you know what my mom Janet said? She told me like blah, blah, blah. No, I'm not going to do that.

• 7:58Karen Kilgariff?

  We can't.

• 7:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's because they're gonna yell at us for that. No, you won't. You don't yell at us, but you know.

• 8:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and also the yelling is the show. This really, it is part of it.

• 8:06Georgia Hardstark?

  The yelling.

• 8:06Karen Kilgariff?

  We fuck up so that you have something to engage with.

• 8:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Something real to yell about that doesn't make you feel horrible.

• 8:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, how many podcasts have you listened to where someone is doing something weird and it drives you insane the entire episode?

• 8:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:19Karen Kilgariff?

  That's podcasts.

• 8:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's true. There's so many of them to choose from.

• 8:23Karen Kilgariff?

  No, let's go on to the next correction.

• 8:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 8:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is that I referred to Eben Moss Bakarak's role in the bear as him being the brother in the bear.

• 8:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And I knew that he was his old cousin. And yet I just let it go right past my head, but who cares?

• 8:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's personal conversation. Also, I watched the first season, have not yet watched the second season, definitely plan to.

• 8:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Stressful.

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So fucking stressful.

• 8:46Georgia Hardstark?

  So stressful.

• 8:46Karen Kilgariff?

  The first season episode where they forgot to turn the thing off and the orders just started coming through.

• 8:51Georgia Hardstark?

  I've watched all three seasons. I don't think I can handle the cortisol levels that it brings for season four.

• 8:57Karen Kilgariff?

  For real?

• 8:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I just don't think I can do that.

• 8:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Some of us already have that cortisol coursing through our veins. Yeah.

• 9:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I have that still from when I worked in restaurants. I don't need it again. You have the same thing with writers' rooms. It's like, why would I watch a TV show about the most stressful time in my life?

• 9:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Right.

• 9:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So no.

• 9:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a no thanks, but not to say we don't love that show.

• 9:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Conversational details, you'll get me on that every time.

• 9:19Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's okay.

• 9:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 9:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why we're here. That's why we have briefcase.

• 9:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, that's, that'll be, that'll go on our notes in our briefcases and we'll fix it in the future.

• 9:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly what will go in our briefcase.

• 9:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Because, listen, there are certain parts of Ireland that I'm scared to even discuss or talk about.

• 9:34Georgia Hardstark?

  We all are.

• 9:34Karen Kilgariff?

  When I hear people talking about dairy and remember that I called it legendary because I intentionally was like, I better look at a map to get this right.

• 9:44Georgia Hardstark?

  See, even maps are wrong. Even maps are wrong.

• 9:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Maps do not reflect.

• 9:49Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm sorry.

• 9:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Cultural requirements.

• 9:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Significance and requirements. Speaking of cultural significance and requirements, we have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.

• 10:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And this week, on the knife off record, Hannah shares the wild true story of Osama El Attari, a flashy con man turned jailhouse informant who helped take down a serial killer.

• 10:10Georgia Hardstark?

  So fascinating.

• 10:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Cannot wait to listen to that. Also, she and Paysha discuss the book There Is No Ethan by Anna Akbari, which is part memoir, part explosive window into the mind of a cat fisher.

• 10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  They are doing the most fascinating stuff over there.

• 10:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Great show, great podcasters.

• 10:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. And speaking of our newer shows, on Dear Movies, I Love You, Millie and Casey are talking about the magic of mockumentaries and the iconic film Waiting for Guffman.

• 10:36Karen Kilgariff?

  The best.

• 10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  They're also joined by the hilarious Art and Miran to talk Dirty Dancing. And Millie almost kicks Casey off the podcast this week. Things get so heated. So make sure you tune into Dear Movies, I Love You.

• 10:46Karen Kilgariff?

  On the most dramatic Dear Movies, I Love You yet. This podcast will kill you. We'll be doing a two-part series on raw milk starting this week because what is the deal with raw milk? The Aaron's kick off the series with a look at how dangerous milk was before pasteurization, how Louis Pasteur changed the game, the rise of anti-pasteurizers, and how today's raw milk movement ties into a bigger anti-science agenda. So definitely listen to that.

• 11:12Georgia Hardstark?

  You'd be like, hey, are you interested in milk? And I'd be like, no. And then you read that paragraph and you're like, yeah, I want to know everything. That's what they do. They make. Milk. Interesting.

• 11:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, with all of the deregulation that's happening under this administration, we are going to need to know this stuff because it's about to start getting seriously dangerous.

• 11:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely. Speaking of dangerous, on Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, Roz smashes a ghostly mirror and unleashes Monet Exchange. They talk past lives, Bigfoot, and Joan Crawford's extremely haunted house. Hell, yeah. If you love Monet Exchange, which we all do, you have to go listen to this episode of Ghosted.

• 11:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, Nick Terry has brought us a brand new episode of MFM Animated. It's called Bumper Boats. It's based on MFM Minisode 426, and it is now available on our YouTube channel. So, please go over to our YouTube channel. You will find full episodes of this podcast. It's called My Favorite Murder, full episodes of Buried Bones, and much, much more over on youtube.com/ExactlyRightMedia.

• 12:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Please give it a follow. It helps us. And closing out with some beautiful and huge news from the merch world, our SSDGM necklace has been restocked. So, we put up this gorgeous gold necklace. It's designed by a listener, which is so exciting.

• 12:26Karen Kilgariff?

  So cool.

• 12:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, Nina Palacio, and her company is called Civil Collective, C-I-V-A-L. It's a gorgeous gold necklace with a beautiful shiny chain, and it says, "Stay sexy and don't get murdered" on the little pendant.

• 12:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It has MFM on the back.

• 12:39Georgia Hardstark?

  It has MFM on the back.

• 12:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So cute.

• 12:41Georgia Hardstark?

  This necklace sold out in hours when we first put it up. So, go ahead to ExactlyRightStore.com and get yours before it's gone. Ooh, it's like heavy.

• 12:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's very high quality, and I really love Nina's actual font and design on that pendant. It's so pretty.

• 12:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Can I watch? Oh, I did it over my headphones.

• 12:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, perfect.

• 13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Does that work?

• 13:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Did you give a little turn to the

• 13:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Just hold your shirt up in this hole.

• 13:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, like that?

• 13:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Now, there's your power right there.

• 13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  We got the sex appeal for this episode.

• 13:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Boom.

• 13:19Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 13:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 13:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 13:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 13:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year, 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 14:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 14:22Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 14:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder

• 15:06Karen Kilgariff?

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• 15:19Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork, and trying to figure out who to call.

• 15:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight-hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 15:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 15:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 15:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 15:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 15:52Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 15:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 16:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 16:08Karen Kilgariff?

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• 16:10Georgia Hardstark?

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• 16:15Karen Kilgariff?

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• 16:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 16:21Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S-O-L-A-C-E health.com/murder.

• 16:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 16:28Karen Kilgariff?

  You're first.

• 16:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm first. Okay, so I got the idea for this story from a post on the really awesome Instagram account, @realhistoryuncovered.

• 16:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 16:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're always just putting out fascinating stories I had never heard before.

• 16:43Karen Kilgariff?

  It breaks my heart. I follow a lot of TikTok accounts like that, too, where I'm like, can someone please teach me what has happened in the past that's of interest and like, in a way that will engage me?

• 16:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 16:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's so many.

• 16:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That's what we do.

• 16:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of. I mean, the people that are like historians.

• 16:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And they're like, this is why you will love learning about this.

• 17:02Georgia Hardstark?

  About milk. Totally. I agree. Okay, so today's story, Karen, it's gonna sound like it comes out of Victorian England.

• 17:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 17:12Georgia Hardstark?

  But it doesn't. It's actually more recent.

• 17:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's bad, right?

• 17:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's so, I mean, it's just like so dated. If I didn't tell you what year this happened in, you'd think it was from like the 1800s or 1700s. But it's not. It's from the 1970s. It's about a serial poisoner who was responsible for at least three deaths, but possibly, allegedly, several more. It's a really frustrating case because many people looked the other way, or even enabled this person, ultimately costing several innocent lives. This is the story of the Teacup Poisoner.

• 17:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 17:45Georgia Hardstark?

  It sounds like an episode of Dr. Perot. No, Mr. Perot.

• 17:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Perot.

• 17:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Perot.

• 17:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Perot.

• 17:50Georgia Hardstark?

  There we go.

• 17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Dr. Poirot.

• 17:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Dr. Poirot. Yeah. Oh, that's my OBGYN. Okay, the main source for this story are a documentary called Murder in a Teacup. Clever. And reporting from the Daily Telegraph and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So, it is May of 1971. Picture it.

• 18:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Guess how old I am?

• 18:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Zero.

• 18:09Karen Kilgariff?

  One.

• 18:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, right.

• 18:10Karen Kilgariff?

  My first birthday.

• 18:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Right.

• 18:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, thanks so much.

• 18:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Happy first birthday.

• 18:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks so much. It was great. I had a really good time.

• 18:18Georgia Hardstark?

  We're in the village of Bovindon. Bovindon.

• 18:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Bovindon, yeah, please say it the way that.

• 18:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Bovindon, right outside of London.

• 18:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's Bovindon.

• 18:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Bovindon. This small village is home to a business called John Hagland. That's the name of the business.

• 18:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 18:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Which manufactures highly technical camera equipment. It's a smallish firm with about 80 employees. That's a big company, right?

• 18:39Karen Kilgariff?

  John Hagland, I bet, had a really nice briefcase.

• 18:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet he did.

• 18:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 18:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Many of those employees have worked there for decades. It's just like a small town with a nice little fucking business. And it's a very close knit environment, is what I'm trying to say.

• 18:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I get you.

• 18:53Georgia Hardstark?

  An employee named Bob Eagle comes down with a mysterious illness. Now, Bob oversees the company's storeroom and he's 60 years old. Up until now, Bob had been completely healthy, but now he's having stomach cramps, diarrhea and vomiting, the trifecta of you've been poisoned. That's what we know now.

• 19:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Something terrible has happened.

• 19:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And it goes on for weeks. Bob gets much better when he takes a week off for vacation, which should have been a red flag for everyone, but then the mysterious illness comes right back again when he gets back.

• 19:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I think what's great about being a murderin' now is like, even if you're wrong, at least you're looking into like a suspicious thing that like the red flag. You know what I mean?

• 19:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 19:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, yeah, you're accusing someone of being a poisoner, but what if they are?

• 19:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, just standing by for the people who are just like, well, I guess it's nothing.

• 19:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 19:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Go back to the place where you start to get sick every time.

• 19:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 19:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, it's just the thing, there's some of us from trauma who have severe patterned recognition abilities.

• 19:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And so when other people kind of don't, or intentionally turn away.

• 19:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 19:52Karen Kilgariff?

  It's both frustrating and then also ultimately very satisfying.

• 19:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Well, it seems that other people around the company are also getting sick. They initially dismissed it as a virus that's been going around nicknamed the Bovindon Bug. The Bovindon Bug.

• 20:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 20:07Georgia Hardstark?

  But in Bob's case, this illness becomes deadly. By July of 1971, Bob is admitted to the hospital, not just with stomach cramps, but with paralysis as well. He dies in the hospital and the cause of death is ruled to be pneumonia. At Bob's funeral, one of his newest and youngest coworkers represents the firm in giving his condolences to Bob's grieving widow. This young man is named Graham Young. He's only 23 years old, and he started work at the company right before Bob started getting sick. His coworkers know that Graham had spent time in treatment after a vague family tragedy, and that he's gotten his job through a special training program after having underground treatment. But what they don't know is that Graham has already been convicted of three separate

• 20:52Georgia Hardstark?

  poisoning deaths.

• 20:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 20:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, nobody told anyone.

• 20:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, that is very Victorian of the 70s.

• 20:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 20:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, how could you not at least have some kind of messaging there?

• 21:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, do you have a record, the way you went after?

• 21:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Or just like, yeah, go get that job, good faith and everything, and then the senior staff needs to know, if anybody starts getting bad stomachaches, please call us immediately.

• 21:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 21:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Something.

• 21:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Something, something, okay. And that's kind of what this story is all about. So let me tell you about Graham Frederick Young. He's born on September 7, 1947, in North London. His mother dies only 12 weeks after he's born, and he's initially raised by his aunt and uncle. And eventually, his father remarries, and he reunites the family, which isn't great for Graham, because his stepmother Molly, it says they don't get along. But I feel like if you're an adult and you don't get along with a little kid, it's kind of like, hmm, there's more to it than that.

• 21:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, for sure.

• 21:49Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, you just like, don't have differing opinions and political views. You're just like, you're not that cool.

• 21:54Karen Kilgariff?

  You're stepping into a family to become like a mother figure.

• 21:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 22:00Karen Kilgariff?

  You're not allowed to not get along with anyone under 15.

• 22:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Like, you don't ask questions to little kids in public, and you don't not get along with little kids. You're the asshole in this situation. Am I the asshole? Yes, you're the asshole.

• 22:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you should have marked little box on the dating application that said, "No kids."

• 22:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly. As he gets older, Molly starts destroying his belongings and withholds food from him. So Graham goes on to become a very isolated child, not surprisingly, who makes no effort to make relationships with other children. This being the 1950s, no one really addresses these issues. He's just considered an odd kid. And as soon as Graham is able to read, he becomes obsessed with nonfiction accounts of murder. This doesn't mean much on its own, but then Graham becomes interested in the occult, and he tries to recruit other kids in the neighborhood to join him to ritually sacrifice a cat. I don't, you know, this is just the line I saw, but during this time, several neighborhood cats go missing.

• 22:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Dark triad, you might as well just say it.

• 22:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. As Graham gets older, he discovers another fascination, and this one I feel like is like part of the dark triad, like outer bubbles. He's obsessed with Hitler and the Nazis.

• 23:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 23:10Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 23:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 23:11Georgia Hardstark?

  He takes to walking around in a black leather duster and carrying a copy of Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler. This is always bad news, but this is also England only 14 years after World War II. But Graham's biggest fascination appears to be chemistry. Graham's father buys him a chemistry set and Graham is obsessed with it. He spends so much time reading about chemistry that at the age of 13, he's able to walk into a chemist and convince the chemists working there that he is 17 because he knows so much about chemistry that they assume he can't be that young.

• 23:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So he's really smart.

• 23:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, yes. And 17 just happens to be the age that you're allowed to buy large quantities of arsenic, antimony, and thallium.

• 23:57Karen Kilgariff?

  There's an age limit?

• 23:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, 17.

• 24:01Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 24:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 24:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'm sure there's some, like if you were a rat catcher or something like that, there's reasons you would need to do that, but why wouldn't we bump that up to 21? Just like, kind of in an adult, if you have a job and it's...

• 24:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's the 70s and they don't care.

• 24:17Karen Kilgariff?

  God, it truly was like, we're gonna try to kill you in every way possible.

• 24:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you get away with it? Then you got away with it.

• 24:23Karen Kilgariff?

  I did.

• 24:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Congratulations.

• 24:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks so much. I was really young and I made it.

• 24:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So all three of these chemical elements are usually considered heavy metals and they're all highly toxic. At the time arsenic and antimony, which by the way, I think is pronounced differently in England, so just...

• 24:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Antimony.

• 24:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Antimony. They are well-known poisons, but thallium poisoning is generally unheard of. If you're interested in this, don't forget to read The Poisoner's Handbook by Deborah Blum. That has so much information of old school poisoning.

• 24:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so good.

• 24:54Karen Kilgariff?

  She's so good.

• 24:55Georgia Hardstark?

  The people in the chemist shop believe that Graham must be a high-level chemistry student because they're like, why would a child be interested in this?

• 25:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's an easy assumption to make.

• 25:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, definitely. And Graham tells them he's using these chemicals for studying purposes, so they're like, oh, he, you know, must be in school. And it's true that he's going to use these for studying purposes, but it would have quickly become apparent to anyone paying attention that Graham is studying the effects of these poisons on live subjects.

• 25:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 25:22Georgia Hardstark?

  So not great.

• 25:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 25:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Again, he's about 13 years old. He's the best student in his secondary school's chemistry class, but it's known around school that he has a little laboratory in an outbuilding on the school grounds where he conducts experiments on caterpillars, mice, and frogs. And he does this while other kids are playing at recess.

• 25:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's his fascination, which is like, doesn't mean anything yet. He could go in a completely different direction and become like a brilliant scientist.

• 25:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Very true. There are a lot of kids that went into an area like this and then, you know, it's like abusive household, you can assume, you're looking to escape.

• 26:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 26:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Super smart.

• 26:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And pretty pissed off.

• 26:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then maybe some like, some communication skills are lacking for various reasons or...

• 26:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 26:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It'd be cool if this story turned to like, then he's 16 and he joins a band.

• 26:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 26:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like that. You know what I mean? He becomes a really good guitar player.

• 26:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Totally. No.

• 26:20Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 26:20Georgia Hardstark?

  That's not what happens.

• 26:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 26:21Georgia Hardstark?

  In 1961, when Graham is 13 or 14, one of his classmates named Christopher Williams becomes very sick while he's at school. He's vomiting uncontrollably and Graham tells his family about Christopher's illness, saying, quote, "They brought out a bucket for him. I sat and watched." It's like observing the effects of your scientific experiment.

• 26:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Georgia Hardstark?

  On another child.

• 26:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And telling people about it, knowing that they're not going to be paying attention enough to...

• 26:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Ask the right question.

• 26:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, so basically it looks like, you know, Christopher fell ill because of something Graham had given him, maybe a cookie, but Christopher recovers and survives. And it seems like it's not likely the only time that Graham poisoned someone in, at this period.

• 27:00Karen Kilgariff?

  God. But nobody dies.

• 27:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Junior high. Secondary school, as they call it.

• 27:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so sorry. Secondary school.

• 27:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right around the same time, Graham's whole family actually also becomes sick. At first, it's intermittent, and Graham's father actually suspects that his son is just being careless with his chemistry set. Like, you left the arsenic laying around near the tea, you know, or something. It was like, you silly boy.

• 27:23Karen Kilgariff?

  You crazy nut. Boys will be boys with their arsenic.

• 27:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And Graham denies this, and his father Fred doesn't really press the issue. Then, in November of 1961, Graham's older sister, who is in her early twenties, also becomes ill. And she's actually diagnosed by a doctor as having been poisoned with belladonna. So he's, this doctor at least, is like, maybe the only one in Britain in the past 200 years who guessed that someone was getting poisoned. Because like, they were like, you have pneumonia, bye.

• 27:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Just over and over.

• 27:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:52Karen Kilgariff?

  They just had one blood test in the seventies. That was it. So you got to really figure stuff out from.

• 27:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and it didn't show up. They didn't take it unless you were dead.

• 28:00Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. Yeah.

• 28:02Georgia Hardstark?

  But even though the doctor is like, this girl has been poisoned, Graham's father still doesn't report on his son. Like, isn't like, you know what's funny about that is I have someone living in my house who is fascinated with poison.

• 28:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 28:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No, doesn't either want to connect dirt, or doesn't want to get him in trouble, or doesn't believe it, whatever it is. But then a few months later, in April of 1962, Graham's father comes home to discover the stepmom, his wife Molly, on the ground in the backyard, writhing in pain. Graham is back there too, just standing above her, watching her. Molly's taken to the hospital, but is not able to recover, and she dies.

• 28:39Karen Kilgariff?

  The stepmother.

• 28:40Georgia Hardstark?

  He kills the fucking stepmother.

• 28:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my god.

• 28:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Doctors believe that her cause of death is a prolapse of one of her spinal bones because she had been in a bus accident a few weeks earlier. So that's what the cause of death is. But Graham's father still doesn't involve the police. I think he probably just wants to believe otherwise, right?

• 29:00Karen Kilgariff?

  For sure.

• 29:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, just, you know.

• 29:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, and it just sounds like the household was not doing well.

• 29:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:07Karen Kilgariff?

  In general.

• 29:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And they gave him a reason why she died and has nothing to do with poison. So why would he be like, you know, who should look at is my son?

• 29:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 29:13Georgia Hardstark?

  They're not related at all.

• 29:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Except for the part where he was standing over her while she rides in pain.

• 29:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Not a great look.

• 29:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Just not a great look.

• 29:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Just a mark against, in my opinion. Yeah, just keep that in the mind. You're not gonna tell the cops, but just you're gonna keep it right here.

• 29:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Your father is absolutely gonna keep that right there and then

• 29:28Georgia Hardstark?

  You'd hope.

• 29:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Hold on to that being like, I guess I am saying it. I'm not saying it.

• 29:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit, what do I do? And Graham's father has Molly quickly cremated, and some people say this was at Graham's suggestion, or maybe he was like, yeah, you know, why would he do that? I don't know. Very shortly after this, Fred, the father, becomes ill, having frequent bouts of vomiting, and he's hospitalized and diagnosed with antimony poisoning. So that's probably the same doctor that saw the belladonna. He's like, I'm the only one here.

• 29:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, maybe. I mean, also, because it is like, it's a village I've never heard of, and not that I know all of them are.

• 30:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure, there can't be a bunch of hospitals in the 1960s.

• 30:07Karen Kilgariff?

  If it is a smaller place, maybe you have like, a handful of doctors too. If it's somebody that's seen stuff already, they're like.

• 30:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe he's a witch.

• 30:14Karen Kilgariff?

  No one's going, no, no one's gonna sit there and be like, well, let's see, the son is the only one left, so he's doing something.

• 30:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, no. It's only then that the police get involved, once this happens, because one of Graham's teachers hears about Molly's death and Fred's hospitalization, and they finally go to the police, explaining about the other kid's illness at school, and saying that Graham had openly brought samples of various poisons to school with him to analyze them. So he's not keeping any of this secret. He's almost like daring people to catch him, and they're like, no, thank you.

• 30:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 30:47Georgia Hardstark?

  We find our own business here.

• 30:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Finally.

• 30:49Georgia Hardstark?

  This teacher shows them the inside of Graham's school desk, which I just had like, chewed up pencils and Hello Kitty crap.

• 30:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I had a nice little packet of Spree, you know, the candy Spree that comes in that long roll?

• 31:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 31:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And it fit perfectly in the pencil holder. Just had them right there and then I

• 31:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So satisfying.

• 31:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Slowly put them in my mouth.

• 31:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, not Graham. His desk is stocked with books about poisoning and various vials.

• 31:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 31:13Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 31:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just all sitting right there.

• 31:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Not even trying to hide it. When they go through his bedroom, they find quantities of both antimony and thallium. And it's believed that Graham had primarily been using antimony to poison the whole family. But that his stepmother Molly had developed a tolerance. Well, because he had given it to her over months, like slowly poisoning them. And the antimony likely weakened her bones so much that the prolapse of the backbone after the bus accident did actually happen, but it was because the poison was breaking down her bones.

• 31:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my god.

• 31:46Georgia Hardstark?

  So.

• 31:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow. Crazy.

• 31:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So she wasn't like misdiagnosed, like how do they not see she was poisoned? Maybe that's true too, but.

• 31:54Karen Kilgariff?

  The chain of connection, whatever that I'm trying to say is.

• 31:57Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's the little red string on the corkboard.

• 31:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And the TV show Homeland, it's all coming back around to like, oh, Jesus.

• 32:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:04Karen Kilgariff?

  God.

• 32:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Later, it's believed that he had administered a large dose of thallium to her the night before she died. She's such an excruciating fucking death.

• 32:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, it's just that idea of like, sitting there and unknowingly building up a tolerance to something that is kind of lightly killing you the entire time.

• 32:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 32:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 32:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so the princess bride.

• 32:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It is.

• 32:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's also, it's very symbolic of all of our lives.

• 32:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly. So Graham is arrested in May of 1962 and confesses to poisoning Christopher, as well as his father and sister. He's not charged with Molly's murder, his stepmom's murder, because there's no physical evidence to charge him with because they cremated her. A judge recommends that he be sent to Broadmoor Hospital for at least 15 years. So at age 14, he becomes the youngest person sent there since 1885.

• 32:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 32:57Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a special place.

• 32:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Just out of junior high, he gets sent to Broadmoor.

• 33:01Georgia Hardstark?

  For the little more than the amount of time he's been on this earth, he gets sent there. And Broadmoor, as we know, is like, not messing around. It's not a pleasant place to be.

• 33:10Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 33:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So he goes to Broadmore and shortly after he arrives, a fellow inmate dies of cyanide poisoning.

• 33:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 33:17Georgia Hardstark?

  What a coincidence.

• 33:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Just right when he gets there, he's able to.

• 33:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:20Karen Kilgariff?

  As a 14 year old.

• 33:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's treated like a huge mystery, even though Graham boasts about having committed the poisoning immediately after it happens. Like, no one takes this kid seriously, it seems like.

• 33:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, he's there, for God's sake.

• 33:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Not a visitor.

• 33:33Georgia Hardstark?

  No. He says that John had annoyed him and that he had made the cyanide by distilling laurel leaves, which grew on the Broadmore grounds. So he just made his own.

• 33:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Poison.

• 33:45Karen Kilgariff?

  He's very smart.

• 33:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he's very smart.

• 33:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, that's.

• 33:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And industrious, but he's a murderer.

• 33:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he is.

• 33:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And the staff at Broadmore totally believe that he did this, but for some reason, no higher ups take any action, and the patient's staff is ruled a suicide. Moving on.

• 34:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 34:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And people keep getting sick at Broadmore while Graham is there. On one occasion, patients and staff start feeling ill while they're drinking tea, which you know, they do so much.

• 34:12Karen Kilgariff?

  They really love it.

• 34:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then a patient discovers an empty box of sugar soap near the communal tea urn in the dining hall. Sugar soap is an abrasive compound used for cleaning walls. I think it's like the powder soap that you get, maybe?

• 34:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 34:26Georgia Hardstark?

  The incident's never directly linked to Graham. It's dismissed as a prank, but it could have resulted in mass poisoning if more people had drank large quantities of the tea. And it's so interesting that he left the box behind, almost like, he's so smart, that couldn't have been an accident. He did it on purpose.

• 34:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Absolutely, because, I mean, and I feel like we've seen this a little bit before, where it's like, the longer they don't get caught, the more outrageous everything gets, the more they are, I mean, it feels similar to that sociopathic kind of, I'm the smart, or psychopathic, whatever the correct term would be.

• 34:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That I'm the smartest person, everybody is just a fool and I can manipulate all these things. Whereas it's like, now he is daring.

• 35:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He wants to know if he really is the smartest person in the world.

• 35:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely. But it doesn't matter because Graham is released from Broadmoor in February of 1971, when he's 23 years old, after only serving nine years of his 15-year sentence. Graham had openly told hospital staff that he plans on killing one person for every year of his time at Broadmoor. It's noted in his file, but I guess like towards the end of his sentence, he starts acting well and they're like, guess he was joking, everything's fine now, let him go. So that's all it took. Good behavior.

• 35:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like he's telling them to hear it and see it.

• 35:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And they say, no.

• 35:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No, he's still just a kid, like you gotta teach your children well or something.

• 35:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, there's a piece of it that is like, he was not seen or heard. He was abused.

• 35:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And then it just is continuing.

• 35:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Like no matter what he does.

• 35:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 35:59Karen Kilgariff?

  He's kind of invisible.

• 36:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. After his release, Graham is put into a job training program where he is trained to work as a storekeeper, managing inventory. And under this program, some of the administrators in the training center are made aware he had been recently released from Broadmoor. So they are letting those people know. But it seems like no one knows why he was there.

• 36:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of the most important.

• 36:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 36:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Part of that information, I would think.

• 36:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, it's not flu season and everyone's getting sick.

• 36:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's what you gotta do.

• 36:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Check your sugar.

• 36:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. During this time, a fellow student at the training center becomes sick. According to some articles, he had been a sailor and had never been seriously ill in his 21 years of life. Graham's roommate.

• 36:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that connected to him being a sailor?

• 36:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No, just that he got sick, which has never happened.

• 36:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, got it.

• 36:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's why he was a sailor.

• 36:50Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, he's a sailor, so he never got sick. I'm like, what is it up, is it the wind? The big sails?

• 36:55Georgia Hardstark?

  They're not intertwined.

• 36:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 36:57Georgia Hardstark?

  They just happen to both be true.

• 36:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I see.

• 36:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And then also Graham's roommate in the hostel he lives in also falls ill. Both men ultimately recover and Graham finishes the program, moves away, nobody gets sick again there.

• 37:10Karen Kilgariff?

  At least no one died there.

• 37:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, this brings us to April of 1971, when Graham gets a job through this training program at the John Hadland Company, where we started the story. His immediate supervisor, as I said, Bobby Eagle, dies within two months of Graham starting at the company. Nobody gave anyone a heads up there. And since no one at John Hadland had any idea about Graham's past and no one seems to be keeping any kind of tabs on him after his release, nothing is done.

• 37:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Graham is promoted to Bob's position as head of the storeroom after Bob dies.

• 37:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Huh.

• 37:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:44Karen Kilgariff?

  He wasn't trying to get that.

• 37:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think so.

• 37:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, no.

• 37:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think he cared. I don't think storeroom was his like, passion.

• 37:52Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it's killing through poison was his passion.

• 37:54Georgia Hardstark?

  By September of 1971, John Hadland is having major issues with staffing because so many people are getting sick with various ailments, most of them stomach related, but there are also complaints of hair loss and headaches. Remember that one office, like, many years back, when they had to evacuate the building because they opened the fridge and food had been in there so long that it was like a toxic mold that got in the air and everyone started getting sick and they had to like, hazmat the place.

• 38:22Karen Kilgariff?

  No way. I don't remember that. That's incredible.

• 38:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Office bridges are so disgusting.

• 38:27Karen Kilgariff?

  There are definitely half burritos in our refrigerator that I am responsible for that probably could kill people. But Brian, our office manager, goes in and throws shit away.

• 38:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Because we don't need that liability.

• 38:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I actually caught Brian sniffing the milk when I ran out of the meeting really quick to go get a spoon. And he was just standing there like this. And I'm like, thank you very, thank you so much.

• 38:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no. You guys believe pass by dates. They're there for a reason.

• 38:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And also have somebody with their eyes on. It matters.

• 38:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank God.

• 38:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank God for Brian.

• 38:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So other people complain of hallucinations, which probably weren't fun, like on drugs. Yeah, when you don't have a reason for hallucinations, they suck.

• 39:04Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't know it's coming and suddenly you're just kind of like, the carpet is snakes.

• 39:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Why does your face look like an orange peel?

• 39:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on. Yeah, you're not out on a hill somewhere enjoying yourself. You're in an office.

• 39:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Oof. It sucks when you're sober, let alone fucked up.

• 39:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Let alone hallucinating against your will.

• 39:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So people wonder if there could be an issue with water contamination or radiation, but no one has pinpointed the cause. But at this point, another employee, a 60-year-old man named Fred Biggs, is admitted to the hospital with similar symptoms to Bob Eagle, who had passed away. So stomach issues that devolve into paralysis and Fred passes away two months later in November.

• 39:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 39:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That's two dead at the company and many sick. So after Fred's death, a company doctor meets with all of the employees to reassure them that like, everything's fine, even though we don't know what it is. Okay, okay, sign here.

• 39:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Having a job sucks so much anyway.

• 40:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 40:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Just thinking of any like office job I've ever had, or it's always the gap. But that idea, where you're just kind of like, this isn't my dream. I'm trying to make a buck. I just want to get home.

• 40:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Die over it.

• 40:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And I'm just gonna drink the wrong cup of tea because no one can communicate.

• 40:17Georgia Hardstark?

  That's how I felt after nine 11, when it was like, I'm gonna go to my high rise building that I hate. And I might die in it, like for fucking minimum wage. That doesn't, I should just stay home for zero wage.

• 40:30Karen Kilgariff?

  For several years, I thought you were gonna say.

• 40:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so Fred passes away. Okay, so the doctor comes to me with everyone and tell them that everything's fine, even though clearly everything is not fine. And at the meeting, Graham can't help himself. He stands up and starts asking lots of questions, which everyone hates the guy who asks questions in the meetings, like, shut up, can we get this over with? Graham asks if the doctors have considered the possibility that both Fred and Bob were poisoned by thallium. So he's just like.

• 40:57Karen Kilgariff?

  He wants to get caught.

• 40:59Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure. Wants credit, almost.

• 41:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 41:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Not like he wants to stop, he wants credit.

• 41:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 41:05Georgia Hardstark?

  The company did keep thallium on hand, since it's used in photography, but Graham was actually getting his thallium from outside sources. So when pathologists examined Fred, they realized that he has indeed been poisoned with thallium. And the doctor and the company president called the police.

• 41:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Great.

• 41:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, hey, this guy who kept raising his hand at this meeting is super suspicious. The police searched Graham's room and find not only large quantities of poisons, but also a detailed diary. In it, Graham writes about poisoning Fred and Bob's cups of tea and documents the men's responses to the poison, like he's doing a science experiment.

• 41:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:39Georgia Hardstark?

  He writes about Fred saying, quote, "November 10th, F must have a phenomenal tolerance to the compound, for he is still obstinately alive. If he survives a third week, he will live. This would be inconvenient," end quote. So just sociopath, can we agree?

• 41:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Sociopath or psychopath.

• 41:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. This is our unprofessional opinion.

• 41:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Unprofessional opinion up to the Broadmoor doctors to actually diagnose.

• 42:03Georgia Hardstark?

  And they didn't, it seems like. Investigators believe that Graham would poison cups of tea from the company Tea Trolley, and then he'd bring them to Bob and Fred. So.

• 42:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Personally deliver them.

• 42:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Got to keep an eye on your drink, you guys.

• 42:18Karen Kilgariff?

  What a time.

• 42:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I mean, tea trolleys.

• 42:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine? Does someone bring you a nice hot drink every 30 minutes?

• 42:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Can we get that here?

• 42:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I think we could.

• 42:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so Graham is arrested and is tried a year later in June of 1972. He's found guilty on two counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder, and two counts of administering poison. Over the year between the arrest and the trial, the details of every single glaring red flag in Graham's life is reported on. And it's a big sensation. He's nicknamed the Teacup Killer, which he actually hates the nickname because he thinks it lacks gravitas, which is like, you don't get to pick your nickname, you are a murderer, you don't get to like it or not like it.

• 42:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're a murderer or whether you're in seventh grade, you don't get to pick your own nickname.

• 43:02Georgia Hardstark?

  In this world.

• 43:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Facts of life.

• 43:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't work that way. In the wake of the trial, the UK's Home Secretary calls for a complete review for the process of releasing patients with violent histories. So thank fucking God for that.

• 43:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:13Georgia Hardstark?

  And the end result of this is an establishment called the Advisory Board for Restricted Patients. So something does come out of it, which isn't really much comfort to the people whose family members were killed.

• 43:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:25Georgia Hardstark?

  But something does. Graham is found guilty and sentenced to life at Parkhurst Prison on Isle of Wight. There, Graham's only friend is another prisoner named Ian Brady of the Moore's murders.

• 43:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? So that's who your friend is. That's the kind of friend you keep.

• 43:45Karen Kilgariff?

  A lot in common, and they probably both zapped each other when they saw each other with that same psychopathic, hey, what's up?

• 43:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely. I actually covered that, the Moore's murders, in 2017 in episode 62, Trust Issues and Skate Issues. Who knows what that meant?

• 44:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Trust issues and skate issues?

• 44:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh. So Graham dies of heart failure in 1990 at the age of 42, although some people believe that he was actually poisoned or poisoned himself in the end.

• 44:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 44:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Because 42 is pretty young.

• 44:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's the story of the teacup murderer. And that's all there is.

• 44:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That is all you're going to say about it. That was amazing.

• 44:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I mean, it's so old timey feeling, but it's not.

• 44:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Just this kind of like, somebody that's just berserking with poisoning and nothing happening.

• 44:33Georgia Hardstark?

  With no repercussions at all. Killed his stepmom.

• 44:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:38Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 44:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 44:48Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 44:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 45:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 45:34Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 45:42Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 45:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. We've all had moments where dealing with healthcare or insurance feels completely overwhelming.

• 45:50Georgia Hardstark?

  You're sick, worried about someone you love, trying to understand what comes next, and suddenly you're spending hours on hold, filling out paperwork and trying to figure out who to call.

• 45:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows patients spend the equivalent of an eight hour workday every month coordinating their own care.

• 46:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody hands you a roadmap when you're dealing with a diagnosis or ongoing health issues.

• 46:09Karen Kilgariff?

  That's why there's Solace Health.

• 46:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Solace provides personal healthcare advocates who average 16 years of healthcare experience and can help you get answers fast.

• 46:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Think of them as someone in your corner who understands the healthcare system and can handle the logistics while you focus on your health.

• 46:23Georgia Hardstark?

  They can help with appointments, insurance. Denials, medical bills, treatment options, and understanding doctor recommendations.

• 46:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Research shows 92% of patients report a positive impact on their care from working with an advocate.

• 46:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocacy improves outcomes, and Solace advocates are covered by insurance nationwide.

• 46:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Eligibility varies by insurance plan.

• 46:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Advocates do not provide medical or legal advice or services. Must be 18 years or older.

• 46:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to solacehealth.com/murder to see if you qualify.

• 46:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It takes about two minutes, and it's covered by insurance.

• 46:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That's S.O.L.A.C.E. health.com/murder.

• 46:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 46:57Karen Kilgariff?

  You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 46:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 47:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals powered by pure Epsom salt and natural Dead Sea salt, it's designed to help you relax and get in the right state of mind for a good night's rest.

• 47:12Georgia Hardstark?

  If you need a reset after a crazy day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine. It's an effortless way to get a boost of topical magnesium that can help you relax your body and mind before bedtime.

• 47:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Dr. Teal's magnesium spray comes in a lightweight, fast-drying formula.

• 47:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Just shake it up and generously spritz onto the soles of your feet and massage until absorbed.

• 47:32Karen Kilgariff?

  I was kind of blown away the first time I used this spray because I do have problems sleeping. And when there's something this simple, you just sprayed on your feet, and suddenly you're asleep, and the next morning you're like, wait, what happened? Did my problem just get solved? Like, it actually is that easy.

• 47:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And your stinky feet now smell like lavender. Like, what more do you want?

• 47:50Karen Kilgariff?

  How dare you call my feet stinky.

• 47:52Georgia Hardstark?

  For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 47:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 48:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, great job. Thank you. Frustrating. Yes. But amazing. Yes. This is similar, but in a totally different area. Okay. The story I'm going to tell you, I think when I thought of it, it was over the holidays because, you know, my dad, he basically watches football and golf and the news and the weather. And then

• 48:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, just, if you had to make me pick one of those, I couldn't.

• 48:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Pick one right now.

• 48:30Georgia Hardstark?

  If I had to watch one of those four things.

• 48:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Football, golf, news, weather.

• 48:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Weather.

• 48:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's pretty great.

• 48:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Because then you can, like, talk about their outfits and...

• 48:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, I'm into weather. If it's extreme weather especially.

• 48:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Nothing I love more than a person that's going like this to a big map, but actually in their real world, it's just a big green piece of paper. They just have to pretend and look in the monitor.

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Professionals.

• 48:50Karen Kilgariff?

  They know exactly which direction to move their hand, even though it's the opposite of...

• 48:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Fascinating. Okay. Sorry, that was off topic. Go.

• 48:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Props to weather people.

• 48:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And also then, anything on PBS, which we've already talked about, so he'll just watch any old documentary. But when he calls me to say, "Hey, did you ever see this movie, The Woman in Gold?" And I was just like, "No, tell me all about what we're talking about." And then he talks about it like it's the greatest film that was ever made.

• 49:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 49:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he will not, like, pay for any extra apps or anything.

• 49:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 49:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So he is truly trying to catch real-time movies on regular TV.

• 49:24Georgia Hardstark?

  I forgot what that was like.

• 49:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? So it really is actually like, when you do stumble upon a good movie, you're like...

• 49:29Georgia Hardstark?

  It's about to start and you're like, "I'm in."

• 49:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Here we go. And it's historical nonfiction, like, bring it on.

• 49:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, I've never heard of it.

• 49:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So, I'm pretty sure that's how we got to this point of me telling you this story right now, because it is a really good movie. So it's the late 1990s in Vienna, Austria, and the Austrian gallery in the Belvedere Palace is where countless works from the country's most celebrated artists are put on display. And one of the visitors at that museum today is a woman named Maria Altman. She's in her early 80s, and she lives in Los Angeles, but she is originally from Austria. But because she's Jewish, she and her family had to flee Austria and Europe during World War II. So today's a bit of a homecoming for her, but a complicated one.

• 50:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet.

• 50:18Karen Kilgariff?

  She's not here for a leisurely stroll through this museum. She moves through the building, the very determined and focused gait, until she comes to a very specific painting, and then she stops. And this painting is the portrait of Adel Blockbauer I, and one of the most famous paintings by the painter Gustav Klimt. You might know Klimt from his painting The Kiss, which is

• 50:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, sure.

• 50:44Karen Kilgariff?

  really gold, and then the guy over the girl.

• 50:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 50:46Karen Kilgariff?

  But this portrait... The Adel One is also very famous.

• 50:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, looks like it's made out of mosaics, like tiles. It's just gold and beautiful.

• 50:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So gorgeous.

• 50:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And a woman in a beautiful gown.

• 50:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, an amazing piece of art.

• 51:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Klimt truly is one of my favorite artists. Like The Kiss, the Adel One has an ornate and dreamy look portraying a woman in a textured and vibrant sea of gold, her face calm, her dark hair pinned up, and her hands gently clasped at her chest. This is considered to be an Art Nouveau masterpiece, but for Maria Altman, it is much, much more valuable. The beautiful woman in the painting, Adel, is Maria's aunt, and this painting was commissioned by her Uncle Ferdinand. For years, it was proudly displayed in their family home in Vienna until it was stolen by the Nazis in the 30s.

• 51:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 51:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So when World War II ended, the painting somehow wound up in this museum, and not only did it become the Austrian government's property, but it was one of their most prized pieces of art.

• 51:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 51:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's why Maria is here today. This is the story of Maria Altman and the hard-fought battle to reclaim her aunt's portrait.

• 51:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 51:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm. So the main sources are 2006 episode of PBS's Life in Times, which there's no way my dad did not see. It aired on KCET, which is the LA PBS station, a 2016 BBC article by Kimberly Bradley called "The Mysterious Muse of Gustav Klimt," and archival articles from the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So first, we'll talk about Maria Altman's family. So in the early 1900s, the Block Bauer family is one of the wealthiest and most culturally-connected Jewish families in Austria. Maria's Uncle Ferdinand Block is a sugar baron, and his wife, Adel Bauer, is the daughter of a banker and a railway executive.

• 52:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 52:41Karen Kilgariff?

  So as a sign of how influential both families are, when Ferdinand and Adel marry, they hyphenate their last names, which is very uncommon for the time.

• 52:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. So the Block Bowers are like, it's the Block Bowers, motherfuckers.

• 52:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 52:58Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll say that again.

• 52:59Georgia Hardstark?

  That was on their wedding invitation. Their thank you notes just said, "It's not the block bowers, motherfucker."

• 53:06Karen Kilgariff?

  What's that called there?

• 53:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Family crest?

• 53:07Karen Kilgariff?

  When you write a letter and it's your...

• 53:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 53:10Karen Kilgariff?

  They're stationary.

• 53:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, their letterhead is what I was looking for.

• 53:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So, the couple are enthusiastic patrons of the arts. They're known for hosting salon nights in their gorgeous Vienna mansion.

• 53:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 53:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Just, just once can I see it.

• 53:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Just the electric lighting. You know, making the place glow. That was so beautiful and...

• 53:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And they have art pieces like that?

• 53:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Just sitting around, gigantic, gorgeous, beautiful, modern.

• 53:36Georgia Hardstark?

  The canopies alone, oh.

• 53:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So, at these salon nights, artists, musicians, intellectuals, all come together for basically a big dinner party and amazing conversation and like to perform for each other, to, there's, you know, it's, it's like artist intellectual night.

• 53:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 53:54Karen Kilgariff?

  The artist Gustav Klimt is one of the people in this group. So, in 1907, he is commissioned by Ferdinand to paint two portraits of 22-year-old Adele. Both pieces are beautiful, of course, but Adele I becomes the crown jewel of this family's vast art collection, which is said to be one of the most extensive in all of Europe.

• 54:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 54:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So, about nine years later, in 1916, Maria Altman is born. When she and her family visit her Aunt Adele and Uncle Ferdinand, which is often, the Adele I painting is essentially like the backdrop of all of her family gathering memories.

• 54:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 54:30Karen Kilgariff?

  In 1925, Adele passes away at the age of 43 from meningitis.

• 54:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh no.

• 54:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Of course Ferdinand's devastated and he moves her two portraits into his bedroom, basically creating a shrine to her.

• 54:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 54:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Very sad. And the other portrait, which I love just as much, it's just a totally different vibe, is that one.

• 54:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So gorgeous.

• 54:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Rich tapestry.

• 54:52Karen Kilgariff?

  But it's like the turn, little after the turn of the century.

• 54:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 54:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So, like advanced.

• 54:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Gorgeous.

• 54:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And cool. Anyway. So 13 years later, 1938, Hitler moves into and takes over Austria. And at this time, Maria is in her early twenties. She is newly married to a young opera singer named Fritz Altman. So Fritz Altman is taken hostage by the Gestapo, and he's held until the family assets are transferred to the Nazi party.

• 55:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 55:21Karen Kilgariff?

  When he's released, the couple is placed under house arrest. Luckily, Maria and her family are able to get out of Austria at this time, including Maria's Uncle Ferdinand. So that was the thing is like, of course, if you had money and you had any kind of connections and that started, started up, and you could see the signs, you got out.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for a short period, there was a way to get out if you had the means.

• 55:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah. But having the means also means they have to leave everything behind.

• 55:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 55:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So all that art, that entire mansion, everything that was in the mansion, jewelry, I mean, they just had to leave with what they could carry.

• 55:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So all of it is plundered by the Nazis, including invaluable sentimental items like a cello belonging to Maria's father Gustav that had been played by countless musician friends at those salons. Maria says, quote, "When the Nazis came and picked up the cello, it was like the thread of life was cut. My father died two weeks after that. It was absolutely a broken heart. He died of a broken heart."

• 56:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 56:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So also, Adel is actually wearing, in the painting Adel One, she is wearing a diamond necklace and earring set that they actually had at the house. And that's also stolen, along with everything else. Ferdinand gifted that set to Maria as a wedding present, but during the war, it winds up in the hands of Hitler's second-in-command, Hermann Goring, who gives it to his wife. Ferdinand's sugar refinery and his home, the mansion are also seized, and all the artwork in sight it. And the Nazi known as the principal architect of the Final Solution, Reinhard Heidrich, moves into their home.

• 57:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you see Zone of Interest? I watched that with my dad. It was just that when she gets the bag full of fur coats.

• 57:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Georgia Hardstark?

  And there's just... Stuff in the pockets. It's just like so quietly haunting that movie.

• 57:14Karen Kilgariff?

  What about the scene where the mother-in-law is up in her room because the fires from the concentration camp ovens are lighting up her room and she's just standing at the window?

• 57:24Georgia Hardstark?

  She's gone the next day.

• 57:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. It was like one of the scariest and it's so like just there's no sound.

• 57:30Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 57:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Except for like the distant.

• 57:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that movie also won for sound design because of all of that. That was such a huge part of that movie.

• 57:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Zone of Interest, you guys, make sure you watch it.

• 57:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Have to see it.

• 57:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Gotta be up on this shit.

• 57:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, yes, today especially, in these days especially, but also because that thing of like, there's a wall and we have, we can pretend over here and nothing's happening over there.

• 57:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Good point.

• 57:54Karen Kilgariff?

  So essentially, everyone knows that this is what the Nazis did during World War II, then they lost. Important to remember that. And then, of course, what happens after the war, the chronology is very unclear. So it's hard to track what happened to the Bloch Bauer family's art collection. The BBC describes it as a, quote, "ownership limbo." What we know is that a handful of their paintings, including Klimt's two portraits of Adele, are shuffled between different Austrian institutions. They ultimately land at the Austrian gallery in Vienna. So meanwhile, the Bloch Bauer family has split up, of course, because they all had to immigrate. So Ferdinand winds up in Switzerland. He passes away just a few years later in near poverty because, of course, they took everything

• 58:39Karen Kilgariff?

  away from him. Maria and Fritz arrive in the United States in 1940. They actually had to like escape and kind of bounced around Europe a little bit, finally got to America in 1940. They settle in Los Angeles and basically rebuild their lives from scratch in Los Angeles.

• 58:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 58:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Fritz gets a manufacturing job with Lockheed while Maria starts selling luxury cashmere goods made by her brother-in-law, Bernard Altman.

• 59:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So Bernard Altman fled Austria and relaunched his small business selling cashmere goods in New York City after, of course, the one that he had in Austria was taken over by the Nazis. So at this time, cashmere is like a novelty in the United States.

• 59:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Really?

• 59:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And the average person doesn't know anything about it, basically. But as Maria shops the clothing around the department stores and boutiques in Southern California, the cashmere business takes off.

• 59:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 59:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Before long, Fritz gets to leave Lockheed and they're able to open their own shop in Beverly Hills.

• 59:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 59:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So Maren makes a personal note to me, which I love because her personal notes are always as interesting as anything else in the story.

• 59:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I would do that, too.

• 59:48Karen Kilgariff?

  She said, "You can still buy Bernard Altman's vintage cashmere pieces on places like Etsy and eBay."

• 59:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I want one.

• 59:56Karen Kilgariff?

  So you can, something to look up and just see.

• 59:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:58Karen Kilgariff?

  But so interesting to me because cashmere, like my mom was obsessed with cashmere sweaters and like she would, that was a big gift she would give you on your certain birthdays. I love them. But it was because cashmere in the 50s meant you were, like, you had money. And it was very like, your cashmere sweater is a beautiful look, you know?

• 1:00:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It's weird to me that that time period in like a maybe one mile radius is where my family is living their lives at that very moment.

• 1:00:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It's so weird.

• 1:00:25Karen Kilgariff?

  In LA.

• 1:00:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they probably went to my grandfather's butcher shop and bought their meat from him.

• 1:00:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, right, absolutely.

• 1:00:29Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:00:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:00:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So crazy.

• 1:00:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And the children of the future will be able to like hear this conversation then be like, you like press your, a button in your head and be like, now you can play the movie of that happening.

• 1:00:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, go back to that day.

• 1:00:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Wouldn't that be amazing?

• 1:00:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, if it's okay.

• 1:00:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It is not gonna be okay.

• 1:00:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Nothing's okay.

• 1:00:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Whatever, sell that.

• 1:00:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Trying to put a nice spin on future of AI.

• 1:00:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm like, mm-mm.

• 1:00:55Karen Kilgariff?

  No, then you have to live in that movie because you're actually in prison.

• 1:00:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:00:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry. Too negative, take it out.

• 1:01:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No, leave it.

• 1:01:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Too negative in the middle of a Nazi story.

• 1:01:06Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 1:01:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Leave it.

• 1:01:08Karen Kilgariff?

  We've lost all perspective. So for a couple that's been through living hell and lost nearly everything in the war, Marianne Fritz are now living the American dream and earning the American dream. They become US citizens, they are successful business owners, and over the next several years, they welcome four children together. Their lives are safe, they're stable, and even joyful, which is a beautiful thing after them having to go through something that horrible.

• 1:01:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So over the years, the Altman's, as a family, try to get the Block Bowers art collection back. They actually succeed with some pieces, but they don't have much recourse when it comes to the higher profile works, including five Klimt paintings, Adele's two portraits, and then three landscapes, and then also some of Klimt drawings.

• 1:01:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:01:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's because the Austrian government is adamant that Adele wanted those portraits and pieces to stay in Vienna. They seem to have the documents that back this up, including a note Adele wrote before the Nazis plundered everything in her home, that it essentially said, "I ask my husband to leave my two portraits and the four landscapes of Gustav Klimt's to the Austrian gallery in Vienna." So believing that they have no leverage, Maria and her family basically give up on recovering those Klimt paintings. And that's that. Maria says, quote, "I'd never even thought of taking the paintings away. I was under the impression that they were theirs."

• 1:02:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So decades later, in 1994, Maria's husband Fritz passes away at the age of 86, of course, devastating for her and her family. And then in 1998, her world is upended again, but this time it's thanks to the work of a prominent Austrian investigative journalist, Hubert Schernin. So Schernin is an internationally acclaimed reporter, and some of his renown is because he revealed former Secretary General of the UN and President of Austria Kurt Waldheim was, in fact, involved in Nazi-affiliated groups during World War II.

• 1:03:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, that's so cool.

• 1:03:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So now Shernine is making headlines because he's investigating how the Austrian government is handling artwork that was looted by the Nazis. Yeah. So up until this point, Austria has been quietly returning some of the stolen artwork to its rightful owners. But Shernine exposes it as a coercive process that leaves the government with the exact art they want to keep. Right. So Austria might, for example, give back certain artwork on the condition that a family signs away the rights to a more high-profile piece. Yeah. Shernine's reporting helps lead to the passage of an Austrian law called the 1998 Art Restitution Act, which tosses out any coercive agreements the government previously used to hold on to looted art.

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  This law also mandates that the government opens its archives to the public for the first time. And who's the first person in them archives? Once they open them, it's Shernine. And he digs through and finds that Austrian officials withheld the fact that Maria's Uncle Ferdinand, who outlived his wife Adele, who wrote that note saying, "I would like my husband to keep these things in Vienna," he outlived her and he left his own will, which explicitly stipulated that his entire estate should be divided amongst his nieces and nephews. Wow. Maria, at 82 years old, is the only one of those nieces and nephews still alive Holy shit. when that discovery is made. So for her and her family, Ferdinand's will makes the issue crystal clear.

• 1:04:40Karen Kilgariff?

  His entire estate is legally hers. Damn. Oh, my god. But Maria's willing to let the Austrian government keep several pieces of art on one condition, and that's that she wants them to admit that they were stolen from her family. Hell, yeah. They refuse. Hell, no. So Maria Altman lawyer's up. Hell, yeah. Hell, yeah. No, of course. Hell, yeah. I just want you to do one more. One more time? One more. I can do the whole time if you want. Just keep doing it. She hires a young attorney named Randall Schoenberg. He's a family friend with deep ties to Austria's pre-war art world. He's also the grandson of two prominent Austrian composers. So from the start, Maria's case feels very personal for Randall.

• 1:05:23Karen Kilgariff?

  He tells reporters, quote, "I remember the first time I went to Vienna when I was 11 years old and saw Klimt's gold portrait in the Austrian gallery. My mom pointed it out and said, 'You know Maria Altman, your grandmother's friend? That's her Aunt Adele.'"

• 1:05:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:05:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine being able to do that in a museum?

• 1:05:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No, that's just beyond. Hey, that Mona Lisa, that's your aunt's best friend.

• 1:05:46Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Marty's cousin, Dan's son's boys. In 1999, Randall files a claim on behalf of Maria, who is now 83 years old, in an Austrian court. That same year, they successfully recover more than a dozen Klimt drawings and nearly 20 sets of porcelain from the estate. But they do not get the six Klimt's, the big paintings. But they don't give up. The next year, they file a new claim, this time in California, which is a strategic move because in Austria, legal fees are tied to the value of the property that's being litigated, and these paintings are valued at hundreds of millions of dollars.

• 1:06:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:06:23Karen Kilgariff?

  So taking the case to US courts avoids this huge financial roadblock, and it also forces Austria to defend itself on foreign ground.

• 1:06:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, where they're like, not as lenient.

• 1:06:33Karen Kilgariff?

  To themselves, yeah. Expectedly, the Austrian government fights back. They try to get the lawsuit tossed. They argue that American courts have no jurisdiction here and that these Klimt paintings, which are now considered to be Austrian national treasures, should stay in Vienna. But Randall counters that, under international law, US citizens like Maria have the right to sue a foreign government for property stolen during war. A US court agrees, and the case is allowed to proceed in California, even as Austria continues filing appeals.

• 1:07:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 1:07:06Karen Kilgariff?

  And I love that, too, because it's like, the reason she is now a citizen of America is because why? Because what happened in your country?

• 1:07:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Because she couldn't stay there. She would have been murdered.

• 1:07:16Karen Kilgariff?

  She, along with all of the other Jews that had to escape this area.

• 1:07:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Doesn't compute. The numbers aren't numbering.

• 1:07:24Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't get to say, "Sorry, that doesn't count over here," where it's like, it has to count. So in 2001, 85-year-old Maria tells the Los Angeles Times, quote, "They will delay, delay, delay, hoping I will die, but I will do them the pleasure of staying alive."

• 1:07:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Because my grandma, who's like the same, they're like the same, lived to be 105, and that means, or 104, that means that she had 20 more years to enjoy this painting of her aunt if she fucking survived, which these Jewish women live for fucking ever.

• 1:07:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, they do.

• 1:07:53Georgia Hardstark?

  So.

• 1:07:54Karen Kilgariff?

  You know why?

• 1:07:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they have a period of starvation when they're young. Although she didn't, though, but hereditary, it could be her great-grandmother that had a period of starvation, and she'll still live longer.

• 1:08:05Karen Kilgariff?

  She's from a culture of people who have been hunted.

• 1:08:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:09Karen Kilgariff?

  They have to live, they have to be strong, there's no crying in that kind of baseball. You don't get to be soft, you're just forced to be strong, work hard, make do.

• 1:08:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Make do.

• 1:08:23Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the story of American immigrants.

• 1:08:26Georgia Hardstark?

  My grandma, I used to say make do so much, okay.

• 1:08:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. I was talking about my grandmother also, I mean, like, that's what we can all do, is what everybody can talk about in their grandparents and great-grandparents.

• 1:08:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Some people.

• 1:08:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Some people. "I will do them the pleasure of staying alive," the ultimate threat.

• 1:08:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So the case drags on until it finds its way to the US Supreme Court. In 2004, its justices rule in Maria's favor, and they state that she has the right to pursue her claim in American courts. So by now, Maria and Randall have spent five years fighting the Austrian government. Randall has left a comfy law firm job to focus everything on this case.

• 1:09:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:09:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Which, since the get-go, many have considered to be a long shot at best.

• 1:09:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a legacy case, though, it's like...

• 1:09:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Personal.

• 1:09:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. So because of that, the two stay focused, Adele and Randall, and Randall ultimately builds his argument around Adele's own words. Because remember, in her will, she said, quote, "I ask my husband leave my two portraits and the landscapes of Gustav Klimt to the Austrian gallery in Vienna."

• 1:09:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Randall zeroes in on the word "ask." He argues that this is simply a request.

• 1:09:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah.

• 1:09:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And since Adel didn't actually own the paintings, Ferdinand did, because he's the man who commissioned and paid for them. Her statement has no legal binding power.

• 1:09:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Words, they're important.

• 1:09:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, and also, Ferdinand's own will is very clear.

• 1:09:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything goes to the nieces and nephews.

• 1:09:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:55Karen Kilgariff?

  So, this argument is successful. In 2006, seven years into the battle, a three-judge panel rules in Maria's favor. And just like that, she's granted legal ownership of those six Klimt paintings, including Adel one.

• 1:10:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:10:10Karen Kilgariff?

  So, for the first time since the '30s, this artwork is reunited with a member of the Bloch-Bauer family.

• 1:10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  When these Klimt paintings finally make their way back to Maria, she is so overjoyed that she wants to share them with the city of Los Angeles, so they are put on display at LACMA.

• 1:10:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you think that when the Austrian people sent it over, they like kicked it a little and made like a little hole in it with, just to fuck with you?

• 1:10:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that, I bet you that they sat around like crying as they wrapped it up in that paper and then in a crate and then in a bunch of other stuff.

• 1:10:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's a masterpiece.

• 1:10:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:45Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a masterpiece.

• 1:10:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, it's at LACMA, wow.

• 1:10:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's at LACMA, and it's in 2006, so probably when, I think that, they said she immediately shared it with the city.

• 1:10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you go? I didn't.

• 1:10:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course not.

• 1:10:57Karen Kilgariff?

  God damn it! I could have seen it in person.

• 1:11:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I was 26, I was fucking busy going to bars and trying to live my fucking life and not work in a high-rise.

• 1:11:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I was working in daily television, and I forgot what actual art looked and felt like. Here's her quote from when she talked to reporters about that, taking them to LACMA. She says, "Now my hometown is Los Angeles, and these paintings, thanks to the museum, followed me to my present hometown. It's just wonderful."

• 1:11:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, I have chills.

• 1:11:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I'm gonna look up what that maybe was like in 2006, like people, what that opening was like.

• 1:11:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, I'm sure it was epic.

• 1:11:38Karen Kilgariff?

  So owning these paintings is a huge job. Maria simply can't afford the exorbitant costs of storing them and insuring them. So in 2006, same year she gets them, she sells them at auction. The three clamped landscapes sell for tens of millions of dollars each.

• 1:11:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 1:11:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And then the second Adel commission portraits, this, this one that has less gold in it. It's just as beautiful, though. It sells for eighty seven point nine million dollars.

• 1:12:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 1:12:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Which in today's money.

• 1:12:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So 2006, you said?

• 1:12:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That was 2006.

• 1:12:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Eighty seven million, one thirty three.

• 1:12:17Karen Kilgariff?

  One seventy seven.

• 1:12:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 1:12:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And guess who bought it?

• 1:12:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Her grandkids were stoked that day.

• 1:12:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Absolutely.

• 1:12:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Who bought it? Lachma?

• 1:12:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oprah Winfrey.

• 1:12:26Georgia Hardstark?

  No way! Oh, ow!

• 1:12:29Karen Kilgariff?

  She's got clamped money.

• 1:12:30Georgia Hardstark?

  She's the only person who has cl- well, at the time, she was the only clamped money person.

• 1:12:34Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. In 2016, Oprah sold it to an undisclosed buyer for a reported one hundred and fifty million dollars.

• 1:12:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:12:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is nearly two hundred million dollars in today's money. So we're still talking about the other one.

• 1:12:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So the same year, Adel One, which is the most coveted artwork of the collection, and the masterpiece, considered to be a masterpiece. It's sold to Ronald Lauter, one of the heirs to the Estee Lauder cosmetics fortune.

• 1:13:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:13:03Karen Kilgariff?

  He also happens to run the Noya Gallery in New York City, which houses Austrian fine art. He buys the painting for a whopping one hundred and thirty five million dollars, which sets a record at the time, and is worth about how much today?

• 1:13:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Two fif- two fifty?

• 1:13:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Two fifteen.

• 1:13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah, God, I thought you were gonna.

• 1:13:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that would have been our first on the noser.

• 1:13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. I wasn't, that wasn't, I wasn't gonna.

• 1:13:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It happens. Listen, I understand. It's all guessing.

• 1:13:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Someday.

• 1:13:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Mine are never even close.

• 1:13:35Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's impossible.

• 1:13:37Karen Kilgariff?

  So he and Maria make an agreement that this painting will permanently be on display at the Noya Gallery and to this day, you can go New York City to Noya Gallery and see it there.

• 1:13:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's go.

• 1:13:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, right? I want to. Maria has said, quote, "I am just happy it has a home at the Noya Gallery. It is very deserved. I couldn't have wished for a better place." So before Robert Lauter purchased the Adel one, the highest amount ever paid for a piece of art was a Picasso painting called Boy with a Pipe. And that was in 2004 and someone bought that for $104.1 million.

• 1:14:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:14:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So very kind of telling and amazing that it's like, and then this painting comes along and just kind of blows Picasso's doors off.

• 1:14:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, because it's got this interesting and rich history, too.

• 1:14:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's also just so gorgeous and gold.

• 1:14:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's gold.

• 1:14:30Karen Kilgariff?

  So in 2011, Maria passes away after a long illness at the age of 94.

• 1:14:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:14:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. But her story continues to inspire and in 2015, it's memorialized in the film Woman in Gold starring Helen Mirren as Maria and Ryan Reynolds as Randall.

• 1:14:47Georgia Hardstark?

  No way.

• 1:14:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It is a great movie.

• 1:14:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, I've never even heard of it.

• 1:14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I watched it on a plane one time and I was like, it was as if I wasn't traveling. Perfect, like you're learning, you're loving.

• 1:14:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like they go from past to present and all the things are happening. Oh, my God, I love that kind of movie.

• 1:15:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And also Helen Mirren playing Maria, you get this sense of Maria as this kind of no nonsense, like, I just want what's right to happen for once.

• 1:15:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's great.

• 1:15:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like proving a point.

• 1:15:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So in total, for all five of the Klimt paintings that she was able to recover. She and her family net 327 million dollars at auction.

• 1:15:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 1:15:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's worth more than 518 million dollars today.

• 1:15:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 1:15:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That family was obviously bankrupt.

• 1:15:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:36Karen Kilgariff?

  During World War II.

• 1:15:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:15:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Ferdinand died with nothing.

• 1:15:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Karen Kilgariff?

  These were his.

• 1:15:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like stolen out of his hands by Nazis.

• 1:15:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:15:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is the value where it's like, you wouldn't let something of value like that just sit somewhere or go.

• 1:15:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No, especially not by the people who persecuted me.

• 1:15:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:15:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Especially.

• 1:15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially.

• 1:15:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't bully someone and then not expect them to come for you.

• 1:15:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right, to come right back. But it really wasn't about the money for Maria, as she told NPR, because they had money.

• 1:16:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:06Karen Kilgariff?

  They set themselves right back up and were like, we made a life for ourselves. As she told NPR, quote, "It was strictly a matter of justice." And that's the story of Maria Altman's fight to reclaim the painting of her aunt, the Adele Blockbauer, won.

• 1:16:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, that was so good.

• 1:16:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Good one, right?

• 1:16:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Such a good one.

• 1:16:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Go watch the movie.

• 1:16:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:16:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Love Helen Mirren and all of her insane talent.

• 1:16:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 1:16:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you say Ryan Reynolds?

• 1:16:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Ryan Reynolds, he's great.

• 1:16:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  He is, he's very like, it's very real and he's obviously like, he wants to get this done.

• 1:16:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 1:16:42Karen Kilgariff?

  He's the lawyer.

• 1:16:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, okay, that makes more sense. Okay, God, I'm like, he doesn't play a Jew or a Nazi, right? Because that doesn't, because I can't and I won't.

• 1:16:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I think he's supposed to be Jewish. He might be supposed to be Jewish.

• 1:16:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Good job, dude.

• 1:16:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 1:16:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Should we do a couple fucking hurrahs so we don't end on Nazis?

• 1:16:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do it.

• 1:16:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you have one that you want to live your own? Is there a fucking hurrah in your life right now?

• 1:17:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, there is. Well, there's plenty, but I think the nicest one is I got to hang out with my niece this past weekend. It's just such a delight, the idea that she turned out to be the kind of person that I love hanging out with.

• 1:17:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:17:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Which I know not everybody gets to have that or say that, like, it's just a joy. I'm so proud of her. She's such a good person and she's so goddamn hilarious.

• 1:17:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, it's just great. It's such a nice feeling. I guess everybody feels that way about their. Very special.

• 1:17:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Nora is very special.

• 1:17:33Karen Kilgariff?

  She really is.

• 1:17:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, there's no like, oh, it's because she's your niece. No, she's a gem.

• 1:17:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's the kind of thing where we go to Sephora and I'm like, you can have anything. And I would have to whisper to her, like, you can get anything you want, because my sister's like, stop it, or whatever. And then she literally will come with like, three things.

• 1:17:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:17:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Where I'm like, are you kidding me?

• 1:17:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, I would have been like, every time. And she's just, yeah.

• 1:17:54Georgia Hardstark?

  She's got good values. Yeah, she's a good person.

• 1:17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like-

• 1:17:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Good job, Laura.

• 1:17:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Good job, Laura.

• 1:17:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I guess mine has something to do with my sister, too. We got some tiling done in the backyard. And I just noticed like, a couple of weeks ago, that one tile is upside down. And it's been driving me fucking crazy since then. And I pointed it out to my sister when she was over, and she goes, what if it's a portal to another universe? And it made me so happy. I was like, that's so true. And that's how we think. And I love that you pointed it out to me. I will never change it. Like, just that, that way of thinking made me so happy. And it's just, yeah.

• 1:18:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I appreciate that she did that for me, because now I'm, I love it.

• 1:18:32Karen Kilgariff?

  There's nothing like sister perspective.

• 1:18:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they really, older sisters kind of set your world for you in an irritating way when you're growing up.

• 1:18:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:41Karen Kilgariff?

  But they really do have the power to kind of come in and just be like, actually, that's not a problem, and you're fine.

• 1:18:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And it's something that like, is weird and definitely like, comes from reading a lot of books, and something I would say myself. And so the fact that my sister said it, I was like, oh, yeah, we're, we're the same.

• 1:18:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she knew how to solve the problem for you.

• 1:18:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for me specifically, because a lot of people are like, what are you fucking talking about? But I'm like, yeah, that actually could be a portal to another universe.

• 1:19:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, or just like, a different way to look at things that, that's more fun for you.

• 1:19:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead of everything has to be a certain way.

• 1:19:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Something wrong and bad. Okay, let's, uh, you want to read one?

• 1:19:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure. The subject line of this is, it's an email. It says, fucking hooray for our own happiness. And then it says, aunties, I've taken control of my mental health and decided to take a solo trip to London this summer.

• 1:19:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Whoa.

• 1:19:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll be starting the trip off strong with a Jack the Ripper walking tour and ending it with a visit to the Tower of London, which is where Anne Boleyn was beheaded. I'll be thinking about Karen the entire time, because I know she loves those good European Victorian times. That's very true. Thank you. Shout out to my therapist, Robin, who has taught me to value myself and, quote, just fucking go for it.

• 1:19:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So fucking hooray for finding a small glimmer of fun in this shitty world. SSDGM Ashley.

• 1:19:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay, Ashley. Glimmers. Love it.

• 1:19:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, this one's from a YouTube comment. My fucking hooray, I had to write a strongly worded work email about a conflict. I used the word tantamount to sound extra smart. My bestie coworker clocked it and asked me where I heard that word. And I proudly announced that my murder aunties taught it to me because it was in a murderer's note to police. See Freeway Phantom, rewind episode 19. Thanks for keeping me sounding intelligent when telling someone off professionally. Stay badass, my ladies. And that's from Carly Prinsell 1801.

• 1:20:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks Carly.

• 1:20:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, good job, tantamount.

• 1:20:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Your report was tantamount to a pile of shit. What if that's what the email was?

• 1:20:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll try to use that this week in a sentence that where it fits. Just throw it on in there, tantamount.

• 1:20:40Karen Kilgariff?

  These mozzarella sticks are tantamount to...

• 1:20:43Georgia Hardstark?

  A block of a brick.

• 1:20:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Did I use that right? I was gonna say like an early Christmas. You were doing it in the neg.

• 1:20:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. This is tantamount to a...

• 1:20:53Karen Kilgariff?

  You don't like mozzarella sticks?

• 1:20:55Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no, no, I'm just saying the ones you order are bad.

• 1:20:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Cause I have to quit this podcast now.

• 1:21:00Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm talking about a bad order of mozzarella sticks.

• 1:21:02Karen Kilgariff?

  I see.

• 1:21:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Usually that's impossible.

• 1:21:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, cause it was like a complaint, I see.

• 1:21:05Georgia Hardstark?

  That's tantamount to... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I think you used the wrong, so, okay. Um, you wanna do one more?

• 1:21:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. This one is also an email and it says, my fucking hooray is that after 12 years of living in the US, last week I became a US citizen. Can't wait for my first jury duty. Thanks for being awesome, love, E.

• 1:21:25Georgia Hardstark?

  E, welcome, E.

• 1:21:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, good job. I bet you right now, E knows more about the government than both of us combined.

• 1:21:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 1:21:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, entirely.

• 1:21:36Georgia Hardstark?

  My last one is from Instagram. It's from fire sign Sammy. Fucking hooray, I just accepted a job fundraising for the library as a lifelong bookworm and English major turned English teacher turned nonprofit person. This could not be a more perfect space for me. Huzzah. And then that emoji. Stay sexy and save libraries, y'all. Sam. P.S. Thank you to Georgia for many years of book recommendations. Keep them coming.

• 1:22:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, I love that.

• 1:22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:02Karen Kilgariff?

  You haven't done one in a little while.

• 1:22:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, just, we've talked about other...

• 1:22:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm always reading multiple. I don't know. I don't talk about them. Okay.

• 1:22:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks, Sammy. Appreciate you.

• 1:22:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Sammy, amazing.

• 1:22:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Tell us your fucking hoorays in any way you think would might work.

• 1:22:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I was just gonna say real quick, if you are worried about the library, then it's a good idea to contact your library where you live and ask them what they need in terms of donations, in terms of support, in terms of anything, because our libraries are under attack and it is completely insane. And that idea that people are being cut off from what is a community service that everybody should have and that many people rely on is insane.

• 1:22:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 1:22:45Karen Kilgariff?

  So activism around libraries is big and important, and thank you if you're already doing it.

• 1:22:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Good job.

• 1:22:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I think the only thing left is it's briefcase challenge.

• 1:22:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, I forgot already. What's that?

• 1:22:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Not me.

• 1:22:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Two weeks ago? Shit.

• 1:22:56Karen Kilgariff?

  All I've been thinking about this entire time.

• 1:22:59Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, you guys are tantamount to the awesomest people in the world. Thank you guys for listening.

• 1:23:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay sexy.

• 1:23:05Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:23:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:23:08Speaker 02

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:23:17Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production.

• 1:23:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

• 1:23:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:23:24Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:23:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:23:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:23:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:23:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:23:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.

• 1:23:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:23:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 1:23:58Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:24:04Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:24:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:24:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stressed Free vacation planning should be goodbye.

• 1:24:19Georgia Hardstark?

  You know a favorite M word? Magnesium.

• 1:24:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 1:24:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals. It's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.

• 1:24:30Karen Kilgariff?

  If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine.

• 1:24:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.

• 1:24:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy and it actually works.

• 1:24:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. For wellness, you can feel find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 1:24:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:24:52Georgia Hardstark?

  In the summer, healthy habits are easy to keep until you leave the house.

• 1:24:56Karen Kilgariff?

  You walk out the door and the next thing you know, you're barefoot and feral in a gas station candy aisle.

• 1:25:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why Kachava makes it easy to maintain your routines.

• 1:25:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Kachava is an all in one nutrition shake and now it comes in new travel packs.

• 1:25:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Every packet gives you a simple shake with protein, fiber, vitamins and minerals, greens, probiotics, omegas, electrolytes and more.

• 1:25:16Karen Kilgariff?

  They're easy to toss into a bag, easy to take on the road and a simple way to stick with your normal wellness habits even when your schedule changes.

• 1:25:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Man, that Kachava matcha in the individual packs is like my dream snack. It's exactly what I need and want in between the like not great meals I'm eating for lunch and the snacks I would have had anyways that are terrible for me. Like this is something I feel like I'm treating myself when I take.

• 1:25:42Karen Kilgariff?

  You're treating yourself to vitamins, fiber, all these things that your body really wants and needs and kind of craves that it does seem like it takes a big effort to get. So now you're getting it all in one packet and in a little drink you like.

• 1:25:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Take your daily ritual with you.

• 1:25:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to kachava.com and use code MFM for 15% off your first order.

• 1:26:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Kachava, K A C H A V A dot com, code MFM.

• 1:26:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.