Why Are All Bosses Idiots? with Simon Sinek

Trevor, Christiana, and author/inspirational speaker Simon Sinek delve into the paradox of why the smartest and most competent people at a company are often not its leaders. They also dissect whether office gossip is essential oral history or the literal tool of destruction of a company, and how (and why) Milton Friedman ruined value based capitalism.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Trevor Noah?

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• 0:42Trevor Noah?

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• 1:26Trevor Noah?

  From Anchorman, the Legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick, from Alias to The X-Files. It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never. Okay, so here's the difference between us. If you brought Simon Sinek into your company. Yeah. And you said, Simon, what is going wrong with this company? And what? Then Simon Sinek would try and help you to make the company better. Right. If you brought Trevor Noah into your company and said, yo, what are we, what's happening? There's a chance that I would say, you need to shut this place down. Just shut it all down. You should fire yourself and you people should ask yourself why you work here. And everyone should go home. That might be my solution.

• 2:10Trevor Noah?

  I mean, that's a contribution. Yes, but what I mean is like, I feel like.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  You bring, you bring order, Trevor brings chaos.

• 2:25Trevor Noah?

  This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Is that, is that, thank you.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  So where are you based?

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Here.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Oh, you're based in New York?

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  I'm a New Yorker, but I'm here now.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  What brought you here?

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  I'm trying to get Trevor to move here, he refuses to.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, he's smart.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  No, don't say that.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  No, I, uh, I, my sister and, my sister and her family moved here in the middle of 2019. My sister and I are very close and we work together. And so to help her ease into living in LA, I got a place here and started doing the bi-coastal thing. But, you know, COVID was kind of a magical gift. My niece and nephew were kids that I used to see, you know, a couple of times a month when I'd drive up to the suburbs and spend a few hours at their house. And then when we went into lockdown, we were having family dinner every single night.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  So you're a real uncle dad?

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I became, I became, I got very, very close with those kids and I, I love living in LA for them. And when they're not here, I'm very bored.

• 3:29Trevor Noah?

  You do a lot of work in and around helping people connect, but oftentimes people will think of you as the guy who helps people connect in like an official setting, you know, like a company and an institution and whatever. But is there anything you can help people, like literally what Christiana said, how do, how do siblings become closer or how do they, how do they stay friends? Or how do they even make a friend? Because people assume you'll be friends with your siblings.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 3:53Trevor Noah?

  But a lot of siblings hate each other.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  Also, like, he's, he's like an uncle dad. He's helping raise.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  For sure, I'm the third parent.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Which is like, I would love that. Do you know what I mean?

• 4:02Speaker 02

  I, I think, and I'm actually, it's funny you say that. People are very surprised by how close my sister and I are. They say, you know, what's it like working with your sister? Is that okay? As if it's some sort of disaster.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  And for them, I think it, they feel it would be. And I don't want to work with anybody else but my sister. And she, and I talk a thousand times a day and we bounce between work and personal stuff.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  And to answer your question, I don't know if there's a formula. I know we, I think one of the things that. Made as close as we grew up living all over the world.

• 4:33Trevor Noah?

  We. Ah, so you were your only contact.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  So we were the only.

• 4:36Trevor Noah?

  No, okay, that actually makes a lot of sense.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  We were the only common friends the other.

• 4:40Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  So I need to move my kids around the world a lot.

• 4:44Trevor Noah?

  You do, actually. You need to make them their only connection to each other.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, we wanna do a London stint, definitely.

• 4:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Um, but then we haven't chosen the place after that.

• 4:53Trevor Noah?

  Do your kids already have the American accent?

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Obi sounds like Peppa Pig when he's speaking to me.

• 4:59Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's fun.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  And he sounds, he sounds like California when he's speaking to everyone else.

• 5:02Trevor Noah?

  So he's on the, he's on the cusp.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  No, I have English. My young, my daughter does not speak English.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  How old are your kids? How old are your kids?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  My son is four, my daughter's eighteen months. And I'm like, Luna, Trump's America. You need to, you need to learn.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Well, there's, there's, there's, so there's a, if you care about this stuff.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do, of course.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Um, I, I, I'm bilingual.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  I speak English and American.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Okay. Which is very different languages, by the way.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  So you know, like, kids who have French parents, you know, they'll like, just start speaking French to their parents. They, they, they just, they go between English, French, English, French. Well, I do that. Like, when I talk to my parents or when I talk to my friends in England, I have an English accent. I use, use English vocabulary. When I talk to my American friends, I speak American. So I, I bounce between the two. My sister is a hundred percent American, can't even fake an English accent.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  That's so interesting.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  There's a feral, they found these feral kids in India. And they found that there was a critical age for language. If, if they brought their kids back into society between the ages of eight to ten, they could learn syntax and language and they could be fully in, integrated back into society. But if it was later than that, the kids could only do like, when you see like chimps learning to speak, it's like word association, like banana, hungry. You know, they couldn't learn syntax. And so I think it also applies to accents. My sister was younger.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 02

  When we, when we came to America, fully American, where I was sort of on that cusp.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  And so I, I had an English accent living here for years before I, I kinda lost it. But I'm still bilingual.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  We have three languages in our house. So English, Spanish, and Ibo. Ibo is an indigenous language from the southeast of Nigeria. So we, the, we're always using different words. Um, but my daughter, her English is really, she just doesn't have many. She knows like pizza, which is an Italian word, right?

• 6:50Speaker 02

  So she's, she's, she knows four languages.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like my daughter, like and it's hard yesterday, she was crying about something. She was like, what was she saying? She said este, este, which is like Spanish for this.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  And I was like, so my husband, speak to her. I don't know what's going on here. So it's like this interesting thing where like each child is being drawn to their own culture. Because there's no like real common culture of the house. I often think about like when they grow up, I'm like, are they gonna be close? So are they going, you know, you've figured it out.

• 7:16Trevor Noah?

  Just, just move them around. Actually, wait, so let me ask you this. So one of my favorite things, just to give people a bit of context. Simon and I have, I don't know how long we've known each other for now.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Probably three years.

• 7:31Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, somewhere there.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Three, three years.

• 7:32Trevor Noah?

  But my favorite thing about you by far is that I just throw puzzles at you. I just go, here's a puzzle. What do you think? And then you'll throw some at me and then we'll go back and forth. And what I love about you is the thing that most people like about you in the world is like how your brain works and how you're able to synthesize information. That sort of gives us an understanding of something that maybe we didn't understand.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  People describe you the same way. You know that.

• 7:53Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I'm not, I'm not formal with it. I'm like, my thing is, no, no, no. What I mean by this is like.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  I'm not an academic.

• 7:59Trevor Noah?

  No, what I'm trying to say is like, I'm not always trying to help people. I think there's a difference.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  This man is chaotic good.

• 8:08Trevor Noah?

  Well, I wouldn't distill me like that.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Pure chaos.

• 8:10Trevor Noah?

  I don't think that's fair.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 8:12Trevor Noah?

  Because I, I don't think I'm pure chaos.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  I mean, the thing that we enjoy about each other when we get, when we talk is we both enjoy chaos and finding the patterns in chaos.

• 8:23Trevor Noah?

  Yes, exactly.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  And I think that's what creativity is. I think creativity is the ability to find order in chaos. And, um, and I love chaos. Cause chaos is where all the magic happens. Otherwise, everything's linear.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  But I think he creates the chaos. That's just the difference. I think he like.

• 8:37Trevor Noah?

  Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  You're like, you seek it out. He's the one bringing it.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Well, maybe he makes the chaos so that he can find the order.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Perhaps it.

• 8:45Trevor Noah?

  I don't, I don't, you know, I resent all of these comments, but either way, I'm, I'm happy to have you here. Before I get into like my stuff, I wanted to know, is there a puzzle you're trying to solve right now that we can help you with?

• 8:56Speaker 02

  So, I mean, the, the simple answer is yes. The, I am absolutely, absolutely fascinated by the world order. This is not something we're gonna solve in a podcast.

• 9:05Trevor Noah?

  No, we will, we will. We've got like fifty something odd minutes.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Perfect. So I.

• 9:09Trevor Noah?

  Most world orders I can solve in thirty.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  So I just, I find this, the world order. Just absolutely fascinating, you know, and trying to understand how we got here as well. You know, where we went from the Cold War, Cold War 1.0, where it was very neat. It was very neatly organized. Yeah. You had democracy and capitalists on one side and communists on the other side. And it was very clearly delineated that if you were communist, we weren't your friends. And that was it. All the communists were on one team and all the democracies and capitalists or those who aspire to be were on the other team. Play. It's very, very simple. And both, both were reasonably rational and played by very similar rules. Well, that doesn't exist anymore. And we now have ideologies mixed together.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Our adversaries are also our trading partners. It's a complete mess and continues to get messier. And I'm absolutely fascinated by how our leaders don't really understand the world that we're operating in and how we got here. And yet they're attempting to make decisions to manage it or lead it.

• 10:16Trevor Noah?

  So this is great because um.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  All of your listeners who tuned in for this.

• 10:20Trevor Noah?

  No, no, this is great. This is, this is why, this is why people listen, trust me. This is why people listen because I, I feel like to give people a little more context, you know, like you, you blew up on the scene many years ago. And I think you've had like multiple moments that have really put you into the zeitgeist. But one thing that I think has separated you from many people is that you're seen as somebody who is inspirational and thought provoking and, and really a modern day philosopher in how we see the world. But then you, you're also seen like that by institutions in some ways, you know, like so you, you'll get brought in to speak to like military leaders or personnel and you know, you'll get brought into speaking to like parts of government or companies. They'll go like, Simon, we, we need you to come in.

• 11:05Trevor Noah?

  Okay, I'm going to ask you a question. You don't have to expose anybody here. And I'll, I'll tell you what I think about it and then I'd love to know your opinion on it. In my time traveling around the world and spending a lot of time with leaders in America, not political by the way, just across the board, people who have power over other people in any way, shape or form. I have been shocked at how much people who are in charge of shit do not know what is going on. And I'm going to repeat this a little bit slower because it shocked me when I came to the realization. Most of the people, many even of the people, let's not say most, many of the people who are in charge of companies, of institutions, of like, you know, states,

• 11:49Trevor Noah?

  they do not know what is going on.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:54Trevor Noah?

  It's an amateur point of view because I don't work like with them. So you're the person who works with them. I want to know like, the people who are running the world, do they know what they're doing?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  I think your assessment is is pretty spot on.

• 12:06Trevor Noah?

  Damn, we're in trouble.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  But like when I work with government or I work with military, like I'm constantly amazed at how much they know and simultaneously amazed at how little they know.

• 12:18Trevor Noah?

  Huh, okay.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  And that's true for government and military, like those things live in this in the strange paradox.

• 12:24Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  And it's it's constantly amazing to me how good they are and how how bad they are simultaneously. There are multiple reasons for that. One is, and it's the same in the corporate world, which is which is how we promote. You know, there are there are tactical people and there are strategic people. Nobody's purely one or the other.

• 12:43Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 12:44Speaker 02

  You know, tactical people sort of know how to get things done. They're in the weeds. They they can see the details. And the strategic people, a little more blue sky, can see sort of far off horizons. You know, the best strategic people aren't the best at tactics and the best tactical people aren't the good at strategy. What I found is fascinating, especially when you get to the higher echelons of government or military, which is the really great strategic thinkers know that they are bad at tactical thinking and surround themselves with good tactical thinkers.

• 13:08Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  The really great tactical thinkers who find themselves in high level positions think they're great at strategy.

• 13:17Trevor Noah?

  Oh, that's okay.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 13:19Trevor Noah?

  So strategic people are more likely, in your opinion, to know that they aren't great at the tactics.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 13:25Trevor Noah?

  But tactical people are less likely to know.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  They think they're great at strategy.

• 13:28Trevor Noah?

  They think they're great.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  And they don't even understand it. Think of it like marketing. Marketing's a little more ethereal, it's a little more, you know, blue sky-ish. Finance, a little more detailed, a little more in the weeds, right? Marketers know that they're bad at finance. Finance people think they're good marketers.

• 13:41Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Where marketing people are like, I don't know, you should probably get somebody in finance to look at that. I don't understand. Right? And so what ends up happening is the tactical people, if they get promoted into strategic jobs, they think they understand it.

• 13:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  But they don't. And it's not that they don't understand, it's that their, that their view is just too shallow. They're operating only with what they can see. And they're not very good at making decisions based on what they, what they can't see or very long term. They don't understand, like, if you pull lever A, then these things might happen. They just like, pull lever A, get this. And you're like, yes, and this will be the response to that. There's not that, that way of thinking. And I, and I think strategy in general is one of those very misunderstood things. It's, it's, it's hard, it's amorphous, and it's sort of in the clouds. But you're a hundred percent right. I think that would be my assessment too. It's amazing that the decisions are being made by people that don't fully understand the nuance.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  And simultaneously, there are people there whose minds will blow you away how much they understand and how smart they are and how they understand nuance better than.

• 14:46Trevor Noah?

  Actually, I know, I appreciate that.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  It's the duality that's so confusing.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  I think we've all worked in places where we've been like, you know, my boss is an idiot, right?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  And so for the person who's.

• 14:55Trevor Noah?

  But that wasn't you at the Daily Show, right?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  No, I was like, my boss is this smart South African.

• 14:59Trevor Noah?

  Okay, all right.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  He's so brilliant.

• 15:01Trevor Noah?

  Because I don't know many places you've worked. I'm just trying to narrow down.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Why?

• 15:04Trevor Noah?

  That's an interesting, we've all worked in place, wow, that was a.

• 15:10Trevor Noah?

  I actually think Chris Jenner does think, or did think that maybe.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  I didn't think you were an idiot.

• 15:14Trevor Noah?

  Okay, okay.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Do you think of yourself as an idiot?

• 15:16Trevor Noah?

  I actually do.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Because I think of myself.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  No, I don't think you're an idiot. I constantly disagreed with him. I still disagree, but back then I was like, this guy.

• 15:23Trevor Noah?

  Which means I'm an idiot.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  Which makes for great entertainment, by the way.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  This is my son, he's like, he's mad.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  And he thought the same of me, so I thought he was, I always thought Trevor's brilliant. So it wasn't that I thought he was an idiot.

• 15:36Trevor Noah?

  Brilliant and an idiot.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Brilliant idiot, man.

• 15:39Trevor Noah?

  I actually do think that, no, I do.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  But I'd say, like, we've all worked in places where the really smart person, or the person that has the insight, whether it's strategically or tactically, is kind of like stuck in middle management, and for whatever reason, isn't able to maneuver to be in a position where they're like the boss, right? What would you advise that person? Because I know, I have tons of friends like that, and I'm like, they're just stuck at this place in their career, and their complaint is, my boss doesn't know what they're doing, the VP doesn't know what they're doing, the COO doesn't know what they're doing. And it seems that, like, across the world, we just have this class of middle management who can't really make decisions. But for some reasons, there's something about them intrinsically that they're not able to do the offer.

• 16:21Trevor Noah?

  How do they stage a coup, is what you're asking?

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Not stage a coup, but I'm saying that the people at the top are really good at, like, Trump is great at, like, knowing how to get to the top, whatever you think about him. He's one of these guys, he could go anywhere and end up at the top. And he knows nothing. I think that's a talent.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Well, he knows something.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  He knows something, but then the people that, like, have all the acumen, as you're saying, have the expertise, have the vision, seem to be stuck, and they can't transform the organization.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  It's such a layered question. So this is the most common question I get, by the way. I'm in middle management, and by the way, middle management is the most difficult job in the world, because you have to be tactical and strategic.

• 16:56Trevor Noah?

  Because you're going down and up.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  You're going down and up, you have to, you have to be, do a job and also lead others doing a job. You're in a position where you have had not a lot of practice leading as well, so you're learning on the job.

• 17:06Speaker 01

  You also absorb all the anger of the people beneath you. You can't reach the CEO.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  And the anger above you, when they're frustrated with the people. And it's just, it's the worst place, and that's where most things die. You know, which is, I've met, I've gone to companies where the senior leadership's incredible, they're wonderful, people focus, blah, blah, blah, and then you go to the front lines and you're like, this is an awful place. Something happens in the middle. There's a class of people who are the angry smart people. Who are angry, and by the way, I think they hate people like me and Trevor too. Well, I'll speak for me. There's this angry smart person who are absolutely smarter than the people above them.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  But what they don't understand is that intelligence alone is, you know, and book smarts is not the thing that puts you in a leadership position. Understanding people, understanding politics, understand how to navigate, you know, having EQ, these are necessary skills as well. And when they compare intelligence to intelligence, they'll always come up higher.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  I know loads of people like that.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Right. And in those cases, it's like, the only common factor in all of their frustration with all the people they've worked for is them.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  So either everyone's an idiot.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Or maybe there's a skill set that those people who are advancing or mastering that they're ignoring. It's also the incentive structures. Most organizations tend to over emphasize performance, results, above leadership capacity. Doing the job and leading others who do the job are not the same thing. You could be a great salesperson, that doesn't make you a great sales manager. But we tend to promote great salespeople into the position of sales manager.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Where you lead people who do the job you used to do. Different skill sets. And so, we don't promote very well. And so, that's another reason, which these people may be better leaders, but they're being overlooked because of what are the incentive structures inside the organization. And then, and then ultimately, the incentive structure is above them as well, which is the senior leaders are incentivized not to make the company better, you know, at least in a public company, they're incentivized to make the stock price better.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  And so, they're going to promote the people who do that. And the focus shouldn't be on the boss. You can't, you can't control people you can't control. Like, no number of anonymously sent books to your boss will change the way that they lead, although I urge people to keep trying.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Well, you're like, buy my book.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Keep trying, keep trying. It's not gonna work, but keep trying. My advice is always the same, which is, worry about the things you can control. Be the leader you wish you had, right? And so, how do you help the people for whom you're responsible? How do you help them rise? How do you help them build confidence? How do you help them build the skill sets? To the people to the left of you and to the right of you, even the person above you. That's a human being too, and we don't know the stresses that they're dealing with.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  And to have empathy for your boss who might have just yelled at you, to go into their office afterwards and say, "Are you okay?" And truly become the leader you wish you had. Because what I've learned is, especially if you adopt an infinite mindset, which is if you let go of that things have to happen by a certain time.

• 20:04Trevor Noah?

  What will happen is that influence, that'll be a really well-led group. And generally, their performance will go up because they're well-led. And senior management will either just leave them alone because the numbers are good. Or if they're curious, they'll say, what are you doing? And what'll end up happening is one of those people will get promoted out. They'll take everything they've learned from that great leader.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:24Trevor Noah?

  And that will infect another group. And before you know it, the tail wags the dog.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  That's interesting. Now, we're like into kind of this workplace dynamic space. Could you tell the audience more about your view on gossip? Because I come on the other side of it. And I don't like the word gossip. I think we should call it oral history, because that's what it is. Oral history in real time, in real time.

• 20:45Trevor Noah?

  Is that true?

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I come from a line of griots, West African. It's like we're touring the past.

• 20:52Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but how do you define gossip then?

• 20:53Speaker 01

  So like, I think gossip is really important for protecting the tribe. It's how we.

• 20:57Trevor Noah?

  No, no, but how do you define gossip? Like, what do you? So what I mean is like, okay, for me, when I hear gossip, I go gossip is a story about something or someone from my perspective that is salacious in some way, shape or form. But it isn't necessarily the same as history, because history is a thing that happened. And look, everyone's going to be biased, but I always feel like telling a story involves like a little, I think it's two things. Okay, so the main one is trying to be impartial. You don't gossip about the history of your people. You just tell the story of it, right? That's what I think of with like the griots and that.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  But you know, history and gossip is interchangeable for me.

• 21:35Trevor Noah?

  I'm with you in some ways. And then the second one for me, and this is a big one, is I don't think people ever need to whisper about histories.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Oh, some people.

• 21:43Trevor Noah?

  No, no, I mean amongst like, you get what I'm saying? That's what I always think like a gossip for me is, this is my personal, is like, if you ever need to like, look before you say the thing, I think that's more gossip than history. Like, I never need to say to you, like, if you go like, Christiana, tell me about your family. And then I go like, well, my mom, so my mom started working when she was. That, to me, is not gossip.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  But you know what? History, because we're on the other side of it. At the time, they were, when they were burning all those witches. Do you think they were like, we're about to burn ten witches?

• 22:11Trevor Noah?

  But that's because there's an immediate danger as opposed to like a shaming that's going to come. I don't think, so you think.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  I think gossip is frowned upon because women do it. I, I will stand by that.

• 22:22Trevor Noah?

  I think everybody does.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  But women do it really well.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Men, you know what? My closest male friends are great gossips. Again, oral historians. So they'll be like.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Oral history is a recounting.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Where gossip is laced with judgment.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  I mean, history is laced with ju— like, there is no neutral history. There's no neutral history.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Let's bring it down a few thousand feet, right? Which is, so I think venting is important.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  So you leave work that day, you pick up the phone, you're like, "Darn it!", and you just get it all out, you say all the stupid things, and you just need to get it out. It's a venting, right?

• 23:01Trevor Noah?

  I think that's good.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  I think venting is very healthy.

• 23:03Trevor Noah?

  Okay, okay, venting is healthy.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  It's like any tension in any relationship. Sometimes you just need to say it, and then you're fine.

• 23:08Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  So I think venting at work is very important.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  And I'm on the other side, like, as a black woman, I never vent at work.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  Okay, well, but let's see. But you can vent about work to other people.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Okay, go on.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  I mean, or you can vent at work about your husband. I mean, like, you vent about your kids.

• 23:23Trevor Noah?

  So venting, so the most important thing for you is releasing the exhaust gases? That's essentially what you're saying?

• 23:28Speaker 02

  That's all it is.

• 23:28Trevor Noah?

  Doesn't matter where you're doing it.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  I mean, I think you have to have—

• 23:30Trevor Noah?

  So you can vent about work at home, and you can vent about home at work.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  And you have to have emotional professionalism. You know, you can't vent about your boss to somebody who works for you. Because your voice carries—

• 23:42Trevor Noah?

  Got it, got it, got it.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  —cavities influence.

• 23:43Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Right? And then you're gonna start muddying the waters. But you can vent to somebody you're friends with at work, and they know you're just venting, and it doesn't affect their opinion about the person you're talking to.

• 23:52Trevor Noah?

  And before you move on, why is venting good?

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Because I think it releases tension. Because I think if you keep the tension in, it builds, it builds, it builds, and you start forming a narrative about a person that they're dumb, they're stupid, and you start treating them that way.

• 24:02Trevor Noah?

  Oh, okay.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  So gossip, I think, is perpetuating narratives that may or may not be true.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Can I tell you what office gossip normally— Someone who's worked in a lot of offices, it's normally done in a group chat.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  And it's like, this is what office gossip is. It's, you know, the Christmas party. So-and-so hooked up with so-and-so. Really? They did. Oh, there are no more sausage rolls because so-and-so took more sausage rolls. That's what office gossip is. It's just a litmus test of the culture and the happenings all the time. I'm telling you, from the group chat.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  But I think that's—

• 24:32Speaker 01

  And then sometimes it slides into, you know, she did this today. Oh, that's so annoying. But the way gossip works, and there's enough factions in the office, it's really hard to completely change the perception of one person.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  If—I have not found a situation— And if everyone hates you, there's good reason.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Gossip can destroy a culture.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  It can, but it's also like, don't go into that guy's office because he's got, he's very handy pansy. Like gossip, I'm not, I'm like, cause there's been research on gossip.

• 25:01Trevor Noah?

  Wait, but is that, okay, wait.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  That's, that's, that's a, that sounds like a warning to me versus gossip.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  But it is gossip. I mean, it's not journalism.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  No, no, no, but wait, wait, okay. Gossip is, he, like, but, but I think, I think when, when you start spreading ideas about a person.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  That are unresearched, unverified, um, or that you wouldn't say to that person.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Um, it can be very dangerous. I know a company that gossip is a firing offense. Because it's so destructive. And when they think about gossip, they're talking about spreading rumors about a person. Even if you think it's true.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  And can I tell you about something about, I bet you about that company?

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  They protect a lot of men.

• 25:43Trevor Noah?

  Oh, this is an interesting idea.

• 25:44Speaker 01

  Because I'm, because I think gossip's a crucial social language.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  It's a very, it's a very female, um.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  If we say no gossip, I think it insulates poor leadership. I think it insulates bullies. Cause there are always these managers who are bullies.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  But I'm still trying to give to.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  And you can't share your experience without it being labeled gossip. So I was just like, where do, how do I share?

• 26:03Speaker 02

  This is very interesting. I think we need another word here because I think you.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  I had oral history.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  I don't know, I don't know if that's the right word.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  I think, I think, I think we need another word here because I think you and I are talking about different things.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Cause I agree with you and I wouldn't classify that stuff as gossip.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  But some people would. Some people would say, well, you're go, that's, that's gossip. You weren't there. You can't prove that he looked at her a certain way. You can't prove that he's a bully.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  But by the way, gossip spreads much quicker and easier in virtual. Like when you're in an office and you're interacting with people and somebody's really nice.

• 26:36Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  On a daily basis always says hi and somebody goes, that person is like the worst person in the world to work with. And they're like, they're really nice. But when we're separated from each other, what I've learned, what I've found is that, that false narratives about somebody swirl way quicker.

• 26:52Trevor Noah?

  The, the difference though is like with gossip versus, like, let's say in office.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 26:58Trevor Noah?

  I don't understand.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  I love how we're all having a conversation about the office, like, like from our corporate jobs.

• 27:04Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but we've all been in offices.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  I've worked a ton of different jobs.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  I want to know the jobs you had in an office.

• 27:09Trevor Noah?

  Unsuccessfully, I, I worked, um, I, I, I worked as like a, what do you call them, clerks? Sometimes where the person's job is to like get the papers and.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, mailroom type.

• 27:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like that. I've, I've done that. Um, I worked in an office because I was a meter reader. You know, like reading electricity and water meters, then you'd be in the office with the people.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Can I read you meter, please?

• 27:29Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that, that type of thing.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  I don't know if that's working in an office, that's going to an office and then leaving.

• 27:34Trevor Noah?

  Well, what is, what is the difference between, and then The Daily Show was an office for how many years? So you're saying, it's funny, we talk about offices. I think most people, if I was to bet, most people listening to this podcast, work in an office.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:44Trevor Noah?

  Most people in.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Most people live in, work in an office.

• 27:46Trevor Noah?

  In the developed world, work in an office.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:48Trevor Noah?

  It's like the thing.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  I, I understand the idea behind like, let's eliminate gossip. That's not going to eliminate like the nastiness of office politics and how human beings behave.

• 27:58Trevor Noah?

  Actually.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  And I think gossip can be a great pressure release valve.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  So what, so I, I, we, we did this in our company because I was very public about it with the whole team, which is, I said, from now on, when somebody says something about someone's intentions or, uh, uh, or, or labels their character, it is everyone's responsibility in that meeting to interrupt that train of thought and raise the question. So for example, that guy's so lazy, right? Oh my God, he's so lazy. All that's needed is for anybody in the room to say, could be lazy or could be stressed or has some stuff going on at home. Or we've put them in a job, they don't know how to do it, and so they're freaking out. Like to just add to a list of other possibilities that it could be that's, that's, that's getting the results that we're getting. Lazy is absolutely on the list.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  And it's just giving people grace that we're not judging why they're performing the way they are or why they are the way they are, you know? So like, I, I'll, I'll give you another example. I went for a walk with a friend of mine. She wanted some advice. And, uh, she, the, the, the conversation started like this. My boss is a horrible person. And I immediately interrupted and said, oh my God, does she kick her dog and abuse her children? She said, no. I said, okay, so we don't know that she's a horrible person. We know that she's a horrible boss. Those are two very, very different things. And I think that's the problem. When we label someone's behavior or skill set versus labeling their character. And when we label their character, it's insidious and dangerous, and that's when it gets toxic.

• 29:26Trevor Noah?

  We're gonna continue this conversation right Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long-form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now. But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane wifi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads.

• 30:09Trevor Noah?

  You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watched. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. Then it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. Every day, it feels like I'm on a new scavenger hunt, but not the fun kind. I'm constantly switching between countless apps

• 30:54Trevor Noah?

  just to try and find the information that I need. Like the other day, I was trying to find the address of a restaurant someone had sent me. Simple enough, right? But then, this is what happened. I opened my messages. I saw a video somebody sent me of a parrot singing opera. And then, the next thing I know, I'm watching an interview with a woman who trains parrots. 20 minutes later, I know the average lifespan of a macaw. I've forgotten where I'm supposed to have dinner, and I'm wondering whether I have what it takes to raise a bird that might outlive me. Enough with digital rabbit holes. Thankfully, my Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini Intelligence. Helpful suggestions pop up right in the text thread when I'm making plans, proactively pulling up restaurant details, calendar availability, or live flight info.

• 31:38Trevor Noah?

  The info you need, right when you need it. Learn more about what the Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages. For users 18 and older, make sure to check responses. Earth can be a lot sometimes. Heat waves, gas prices, bad hair days. Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off your problems and turn on your favorite movies and shows. You know, the ones you already love. From Anchorman, The Legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick. From Alias to The X-Files. It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good.

• 32:23Trevor Noah?

  Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never. After this short break.

• 32:37Trevor Noah?

  You know, when I'm listening to this, I can't help but wonder if... We always talk about companies, as if they're these isolated spaces. But it feels like you live in a world where you're constantly exposed to the Petri dishes of society. Because what is a company if not a manufactured community?

• 32:57Speaker 02

  It's a collection of people.

• 32:58Trevor Noah?

  Right?

• 32:58Speaker 02

  It's a collection of people. It's a modern tribe.

• 33:00Trevor Noah?

  There you go.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  That's all it is.

• 33:01Trevor Noah?

  And so, these are the people you... Because of, let's say, your job, maybe you chose, but you sort of didn't choose them. Because you weren't the person hiring all of them and you weren't the person... So in many ways, it is like a tribe, it is like a community. These people have happened into your life and now you have to choose how to treat them and how not to treat them. So the thing that pops into my mind as I'm thinking about this is... Is it harder for us to be better or to treat people or to give them the benefit of the doubt in a corporate setting? Or is this just a magnifying glass that's put on us and our ability outside of the corporate set? Like, where have you found it easier to apply these principles? Because everything you're saying to me, sounds like things we should be doing in real life, right?

• 33:46Trevor Noah?

  So we should go, "I don't like that person's music. I don't like how they looked in some pictures. I don't like the way they speak." As opposed to saying, "That person's an asshole." And it's like, "Well, how do you know they're an asshole?" "I can tell." You're like, "Okay, but what of them?" And we've seen this happen online.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 34:02Trevor Noah?

  You can just like build... All of a sudden, there's like a movement. And everyone's just like, we hate them. And you're like, but why is this? Uh, an example for me was like Anne Hathaway. Do you remember there was a time when Anne Hathaway was just hated?

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:15Trevor Noah?

  And.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  And she'd done nothing.

• 34:16Trevor Noah?

  That's my thing. I'm, I'm not like chronically online, so I, I, I pop in and I'll miss things and I'm like, did I, what did she do? And then I'll go down a rabbit hole and like, I still, I can't find it. And then she like danced at a film festival or something or an after party. And then people are like, she's amazing.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:33Trevor Noah?

  I was like, what, what has happened in her life or in people's lives that this shifted? And.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  And that's a good example of the swirl of gossip.

• 34:41Trevor Noah?

  That's what I, that's what.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  It can destroy someone's character.

• 34:43Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  And this is where I think these things get dangerous. Um, but you're a hundred percent right, which is the office is a little Petri dish. And everything that we learn at work.

• 34:54Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  Is applicable. If you do, like, the best organizations are values based, right?

• 34:59Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but let's, what's, what does that mean? I'll, I'll be honest, I'm always confused about that because I go. For me, a company's values are to make money.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  That's, yeah, so that's, go on.

• 35:10Trevor Noah?

  No, no, and I mean this, I'm, and I'm not like saying in an attacking way. I go, I, I'm always thrown when a company says like our values, our, cause I go, these are your values.

• 35:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:20Trevor Noah?

  But if losing money comes into the equation, you will adapt your values. So then they aren't values to me.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 35:25Trevor Noah?

  That's, that's what I always think of. So I go like, can a company actually have values beyond making money?

• 35:30Speaker 02

  So you are highlighting the very problem with modern capitalism, right? The capitalism that we have today is not Adam Smith capitalism. That's not, that's not the capitalism we have today. We have a bastardized form of capitalism influenced by an, uh, uh, uh, uh, an economist from the late seventies named Milton Friedman. The Adam Smith version of capitalism was that the baker selfishly wants to make the best bread so that they can sell more bread than all the other bakers. And the, the butcher selfishly wants to make the best meat so he can sell more than all the other butchers. And the, the, the dairy farmer wants to make the best butter so that he can sell more. And what you get is the best sandwich. What we as the customer get is the best sandwich, right? So the selfish behavior of wanting to be better than their others benefits the customer, right?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  And in the late 1970s, Milton Friedman wrote an op-ed in the New York Times where he basically proposed a new definition of business. He actually called it the responsibility of business. The responsibility of business was to maximize profit within the bounds of the rules. Forget about ethics.

• 36:27Trevor Noah?

  Maximize profits within the bounds of the rules, right?

• 36:30Speaker 02

  Ethics are a higher standard than the rules. And you see it all the time. You know, companies did some horrifically unethical things. You know, a patent to an essential drug and they raised the price 1500%.

• 36:41Trevor Noah?

  Right, it's within the rules.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  And they all say the same thing. We broke no laws.

• 36:45Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 36:45Speaker 02

  Which is true, right? Horrible, but not illegal, right? And so in the late 70s and early 80s, a lot of the sort of the ruling classes, the CEO classes, heard this definition and went, "Yeah, baby," right? And they embraced Friedman's definition of capitalism, or business, the responsibility of business, and they sort of doubled down on it. And you started, it gave rise to some entirely new behaviors and entirely new CEOs.

• 37:10Trevor Noah?

  This is just from this op-ed?

• 37:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, it became a popular thing.

• 37:15Trevor Noah?

  Wow, Milton, that's a, that's a high hit rate. Well done, Milton.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  I don't like Milton Friedman, right?

• 37:19Trevor Noah?

  Is Milton Friedman still alive?

• 37:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 37:21Trevor Noah?

  Oh, okay. That's why you can say it like that. Otherwise, that would be like a crazy move if you were just like, "I hate you, Milton Friedman." And Milton Friedman's like, "Oh, Simon Sinek." Okay, you hate his, oh, there we go, okay.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  Can't speak about his character, but I don't like the work he put out there. And so you, you started to see these new behaviors arise. So for example, the use of mass layoffs to balance the books on an annualized basis, right?

• 37:41Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Did not exist in the United States prior to the 1980s. It didn't exist. Layoffs, mass layoffs, were used for existential reasons, like, "Oh my God, the company's going bankrupt. We have to cut 10% of our workforce."

• 37:50Trevor Noah?

  Yes, yes.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Now it's like, "We're profitable, which is not as profitable as we promised." You lose your job, right? That started in the early 1980s and it, and it started to gain popularity. And then it gave rise to an entirely new type of CEO, like Jack Welch, who was the CEO of GE. And he was like the poster child of Miltonian economics, where you started to see the shareholder being prioritized over the customer and the employee. You started to see shorter-term time horizons. You started to see an emphasis on

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Price of stock versus is this good for the company's long-term value? You started to see long-term greed being replaced by short-term greed. I don't have an issue with long-term greed, but short-term greed is a problem. And the use of human beings' livelihoods to maximize shareholder value. And this was all because of this Miltonian influence, Jack Welch, poster child, that is the standard of how businesses are led today. There's nothing wrong with capitalism. There's a huge problem with this version of capitalism. And you can see what's happening. There's a rise of populist movements Yeah. across the West and capitalist societies. I don't care if you're on the left and right, Bernie or Trump, it doesn't matter. And they're complaining about the same thing, which is the very small percentage of the elite are getting richer and everybody else is being left behind.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  And when you have a huge delta between those who have and those who don't, what you get is revolution. The middle class is drying up and people are not investing in the stock market anymore. The whole stock market exists so that the average working American can share in the wealth of a nation. That's why we have a stock market. That's what Alexander Hamilton imagined, right? And but that's not what we have anymore. So what happens? It's become a game for a few so they can command more wealth. And just to put one final sort of cap on it. If you go back to the anthropology of leadership, like if we go back, you know, 50,000 years, whatever you want to do, where we lived in tribes that were never bigger than about 150, 200 people.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Human beings evolved into naturally hierarchical animals. We're constantly assessing and judging who's alpha, depending on whatever the standards are for that group, who's alpha? And we treat our alphas differently, right? You know this. As soon as you started getting some fame, you're better looking and all your jokes are funnier. Right? If you leave your jacket in another room, somebody goes and gets your jacket for you. If you're junior and you leave a jacket in the other room, you get your own jacket, right? That's just how it works. And so what we did was we assessed our alphas and we stepped back and we allowed our alphas to get first choice of meat and first choice of mate. Except the group is not stupid. We don't give first choice of meat and first choice of mate to our alphas for nothing. There's a deep-seated social contract that when danger threatens the tribe,

• 40:35Speaker 02

  we expect the person who's actually stronger, actually smarter, actually better fed. To confront the danger to protect the tribe. That's why we give you all the perks. This, it's not, you don't get the perks for free. They come at a cost. And so that's the deep seated social contract. We have no problem with CEOs making more money than us. Where it broke the contract and why you get the anger is not the disparity. It's when we started to see the people who are in alpha positions. When danger threatened the tribe, the economy took a little shake, whatever it is, that they would sooner sacrifice the people to protect their own interests rather than sacrifice their interests for the short term to protect the people. And that's why we're getting the populist reaction. That's what it is.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's the people saying, you have, you have violated your, we're coming for you with pitchfork.

• 41:21Trevor Noah?

  I mean, it's, it's no different in many ways to what we see in countries, right?

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 41:26Trevor Noah?

  So people will say we want democracy. Like, the idea of democracy is very popular because it's been attached to things like fairness and equality, et cetera. But I would argue most people would be fine living in a dictatorship or under monarchy if their lives were good.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government.

• 41:48Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, like, it's like, people don't actually care, really.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  The problem is succession.

• 41:51Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that, that, that's actually the thing, you know? And so what you're saying now is, I think of how many people, let's say in America, we start with the US. One of the more interesting things I saw was on AOC. AOC's Instagram page, right? Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She asked people after the election, "Hey, I noticed that Trump won the election, but he lost on the down ballots in many places." And now a lot of people are saying this is a conspiracy. They're saying, "How could Trump have won the election? But the people in these certain counties and whatever, or states, they voted Democrat, but then Trump won? What's what's going on here?"

• 42:32Trevor Noah?

  And so she said, just for me, can you all tell me if you voted for me and Trump? I want to know if that's possible. And her, I don't know what the number was, but it looked like she was flooded with replies. And then she started posting them on her page. And it was amazing to see how many people said, I voted for you and Trump.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:50Trevor Noah?

  Because while you two don't see eye to eye, you are both doing the same thing in my eyes, which is you're dismantling the system. Yeah. That has put me in this position. AOC is going, break it all apart. Trump is saying, break it all apart. AOC is saying, these people are screwing you over. Trump is saying, these people are screwing you over. And then you see it with leaders as well. They're killing it. They're doing well. They're having fun. And then on the ground, you're not having a good time. And then it leads us to.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:15Trevor Noah?

  Leads us to a lot of what we have now.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  And so the reaction isn't throw out capitalism, democracy. The answer is throw out this form of capitalism. Go back.

• 43:24Trevor Noah?

  But, but you, how do they respond? Yeah, but how do they respond when you, because you actually hang out with CEOs. How do they respond?

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Well, the ones who agree with me hang out with me.

• 43:31Trevor Noah?

  Ah.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  The ones who don't agree with me, don't, don't call me.

• 43:35Trevor Noah?

  Have you ever changed the CEO's mind?

• 43:39Speaker 02

  The problem is not their mind. The problem is their incentive structure. Like, I remember I was working with a CEO and gave him some counsel on sort of how to organize things better. And he was really honest. He's like, I totally agree with everything you're telling me. And your, your insights are spot on and I completely agree and I'm going to implement none of it. Because if I do it your way, I won't get my bonus. He was just very blunt with me.

• 44:04Trevor Noah?

  Damn.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  And so, and so, but the, but there are good leaders who are taking risks to fight the machine. There's also a younger generation of leaders that are coming up. The newer companies, the newer CEOs are, are raising these questions. And you start to hear things like triple bottom line and you start to hear these things. But you're a hundred percent right, you know, the number of, look, the fact that.

• 44:27Trevor Noah?

  What's it the, I've forgotten the, all the businesses that come together at the, I've forgotten what they're called. But a few years ago, they put out a statement saying purpose really matters in business.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 44:37Trevor Noah?

  But when I started, like if you talked about purpose at work, you were just a weird ass hippie. And every company has a purpose statement on their website, even if they don't follow it, even if it's just because they have to. But that's at least progress.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  I think it's because we probably fall on different parts of the capitalist debate and we're not going to get into it because I hate capitalism. And I.

• 45:01Trevor Noah?

  But you are champagne socialist.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think it's a system that can be redeemed personally, especially America's history of racial capitalism. I guess I object to the fact that why should I find purpose in work? Like I actually deeply recoil when I hear that because I'm just like, oh, so you want me to feel like, it's like kind of like the wellness industry, right? This way of feeling good about yourself in order to sell me more things. And I'm like, why should my, to me, my purpose can never ever be in work. God forbid, an office and God forbid my boss coming to me and saying like, what's your why? And I'm like, well, my why is to be with my family and my friends and my community. This is just how I make money.

• 45:40Trevor Noah?

  Is that all this is for your transaction?

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially Trevor. Ah, it's all a transaction.

• 45:51Trevor Noah?

  This episode, we're talking with Simon Sinek about how to find meaning and satisfaction in the work that you do. And let's be honest, a big part of that is making sure you end up in the right role at the right place. In other words, it's all about hiring, recruiting and finding the perfect match. That's what's inspired this next special part of today's episode. Next big opportunity brought to you by ZipRecruiter.

• 46:19Trevor Noah?

  Let me give you one example of a job opportunity up right now on ZipRecruiter. A cake maker in Pacifica, California. Yeah, it sounds like a pretty straightforward job. But when you think about who the perfect candidate would be, you realize how important the recruiting process actually is. Right? If you're hiring for this job, you need someone with the experience needed to fill all different kinds of orders. People have some pretty weird ideas for cakes out there and they've got to fulfill them. So you need someone who can also work independently, under deadlines. And the job isn't just going in the back room and making cakes. You have to work with customers to come up with the perfect cake for their special occasion. That's a lot of pressure. If you're applying for this job, you want to make sure the team you're joining works well together and communicates.

• 47:04Trevor Noah?

  You want to make sure this business has a good reputation and good benefits. Maybe you're looking for experience inside a small business because you may want to start one of your own someday. ZipRecruiter connects all those dots with tools like ZipIntro, where you can go from posting your job to candidate interviews in just one day. Of course, it's just not cakes. One employer needed to hire front desk salespeople for her Pilates studio. So she used ZipRecruiter's ZipIntro tool to find and schedule back-to-back video screening calls with candidates. She'd only set out to hire two people, but she had so many great candidates that she ended up hiring four people in one week.

• 47:47Trevor Noah?

  Whatever role you're looking to fill, ZipRecruiter can help. With smart matching technology and handy tools like ZipIntro, you'll find a potential hire in no time. In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it now for free at ziprecruiter.com/trever. That's ziprecruiter.com/trever. See for yourself. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/trever. This has been Next Big Opportunity, brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Back to our conversation with Simon Sinek.

• 48:28Trevor Noah?

  There's a really beautiful story I read. There was an explorer, I don't know, I'm very bad with years, but I remember the stories. And it was, um, there's an explorer in England who went and bumped into an undiscovered tribe, right? They hadn't made contact with the English. And this guy befriended them and they welcomed him in. All things were good. And then he like sort of learned to communicate with them. And it was this beautiful little journey where he learned their way of life and had a wonderful time. And they were really an altruistic, you know, community. And they had different laws, by the way. Sort of murder was legal in some ways. You could just kill somebody. And then the tribe was just like, all right, well, you did it. And we keep it moving. We don't like judge you, we don't. But he was like, surprisingly, everyone didn't kill each other.

• 49:11Trevor Noah?

  So they were definitely different, right? Um, after spending, you know, months or even years with them, he goes back to England. And he says to like the chief of the tribe and like some of the others, he's like, hey, you should come with me to England. And they traveled back to England and they like spending time with him and his family. You know, you can imagine this life now. You've gone from like the jungle to, you know, London. Victorian London. Yeah, and he, he says to them, he says, what do you, so what do you think? And he says like, he thought these guys are going to be mesmerized because there's technology and like this, you know, carriages and there's all kinds of stuff. He's like, so what do you think? And he says, they were not impressed at all. The only thing that impressed them was the butchery. They were really shocked that you could just go and get meat. They were like, what?

• 49:53Trevor Noah?

  They were literally, they were like, that's the only thing that made them happy. They're like, wow, you could just go get meat anytime you want. That's pretty cool. Everything else they didn't care about. And it culminated in a question that they asked him one day. After a week or so of staying together, he came home. And one of the tribe's people asked him, said, hey, where do you go every day?

• 50:16Trevor Noah?

  The guy said, what? And he said, every day, you leave this, this house, you're gone. We're here with like your family.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 50:24Trevor Noah?

  And then you come back. Where do you go every day? And he's like, oh, I go to work. And they're like, ah, they're like, well, why don't you take your family with you? And he's like, ah, yeah, they don't allow that at, at my work. That's not how we do things here. And they go, oh, okay. And they're like, well, do you like your work more than your family? And he's like, no, no, no, I love my family the most. And they said, well, then why don't you quit your work and just stay with your family?

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:50Trevor Noah?

  And he said, no, I have to work for my family so that we can live. And then they said, well, this system doesn't make sense because if you're working to be with your family, but you have to leave your family to go to work. Then you're doing the wrong thing in the wrong way. And then he said, well, how do you, how do you do it? I have to have the house and I have to. And they said, in our community, when somebody needs a house, we all come together, we build them a house. Takes us about a month, there's now a house, and then we go back to living our lives with our families. And if somebody needs something else, we get together, we do that for them, and then we go back. And he says it was the first time that he was ever confronted with the notion that the way we live isn't normal, like the office, the work, the family, the thing.

• 51:32Trevor Noah?

  And then they went back. By the way, they, he was like, do you guys want to, they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, we're very happy to leave.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:37Trevor Noah?

  By the way, give us some meat, that was really cool. And then they went back home and they lived their lives.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  I just struggle with the idea of infusing these corporations with purpose and spirituality. Um, because I, I, I, and the community I belong to, we find that elsewhere. It's like your job is your job. I feel very fortunate to do a job that I enjoy despite it being with Trevor a lot of the time.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  There's a whole wonderful crew here.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, forget them. Um, but no, it's just, it's just like, I, I, I butt up against that. Cause in the tech world, it looks like, okay, now we're gonna give you a gym in the office because that would make them feel better. And they have somewhere to sleep and like what that gets layered into.

• 52:18Trevor Noah?

  How do you define the value and the purpose?

• 52:19Speaker 02

  So we're conflating a bunch of things here, right? I don't think any of that's purpose either.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  That stuff is superficial. And it's trappings and none of that stuff makes for a quote unquote culture either.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Right? So just just go back a few years. So there was a time not that long ago where, you know, you're right, where you went to work simply to make the money to pay for your stuff. And you had, you were friends with your neighbors and you had a sense of tribe with your neighbors. And you got, you know, some sort of belonging or community or moral guidance from church. And you had bowling on Saturdays and Thursday, you had the tournaments on Thursday nights and we had these things.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Sunday dinners.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Sunday dinners and all these traditions and institutions, the bowling clubs, the bowling leagues went away.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Church attendance is down. We're not really friends with our neighbors, but we still have desire for all these things. And so a lot of pressure was put on work to give me these things that I used to get outside of work. So it's not all work trying to force these things on you. Some of it was the changing world around us and we are demanding of our offices to give it to us because we're not getting it anywhere else.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I don't, I don't want it from my office.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  And that's totally.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Because I have to be here more and I want to be with my people.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  And that's totally fine, by the way.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  And that's totally fine. But when I talk about purpose at work, right? I'm not talking about something spiritual, anything like that. When we talk about vision, whether it's vision, the best companies sound like, they sound like social movements, right?

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Which is scary to me because I don't, it's cultish. No, I meet a lot of people that work for these type of vision driven, purpose driven. I'm like, you've joined a cult and they will fire you too.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  And by the way, so, but hold on, but you're, you're conflating so, there's a swirl of stuff going on here. Right?

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Clarify it for me then.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  So you're right.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  It does, it is cultish.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  And that's not necessarily a bad thing because it, it means I believe there's a shared set of values. I feel like I belong. I feel like I found my tribe, right? The company actually does obey its values and would sacrifice its short term money to uphold its values. Those are good companies. And when you say, oh, they'll just fire you, the bad companies will.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:30Trevor Noah?

  Trust me, I'm with you on the

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:32Trevor Noah?

  Right. They say all the right things. They put the values on the wall, but it's all a punchline and they don't use them to make decisions.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:37Trevor Noah?

  So you're a hundred percent right there. But I'll take you to see some companies where they are treated right. They don't get fired simply because the company is struggling. And they they are hired slowly because they they try and choose people who believe in the same values, who are cultural contributors rather than cultural fits, right? Which is, I like it here. I want to give to the people to the left and right of me because they give to me. And they they have a psychological safety when they come to work. They feel like someone's got their back.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  I guess what I object to.

• 55:09Trevor Noah?

  And those are beautiful things.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  I think what I object to fundamentally is like the privatization of a sense of belonging. I don't actually think that's the job of a business. I don't believe that's the job of a business. I believe I believe that is actually the job of your community and your people.

• 55:23Trevor Noah?

  But let me, can I throw, can I throw, can I wait, can I throw something?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  And then I'm like, restore the the community.

• 55:28Trevor Noah?

  No, but can I, but can I throw?

• 55:29Speaker 01

  I'm not in the business of being like, let's make these.

• 55:32Trevor Noah?

  By the way, I agree with you.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Places of purpose and belonging. Because that's just like.

• 55:35Trevor Noah?

  No, so I, so I'll throw one thing separately, actually, because I don't consult with companies in that way. But I I do think, for me at least personally, when we talk about purpose.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:47Trevor Noah?

  I sometimes think about it through the lens of, funny enough, pyramids. You know, when when I went to Peru, and you go to Machu Picchu and you're looking at the pyramids, the immediate assumption that Western anthropologists had when they came was, oh, that they did this using slavery. They're like, oh, yeah, you guys had slaves and then that's how you built the thing. And historians who are from Peru go, no, no, no, you assume that because that's how you built your empires. You only know how to build using slavery. They go, these people had purpose. And their purpose was they woke up every day. They said, we're building a temple to the gods. And no one was like forcing anyone. They were like, yo, yo, temple time, temple time, baby. And everyone got together and they're like, why do we push these rocks?

• 56:32Trevor Noah?

  For the gods.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:34Trevor Noah?

  And now someone might be like, ah, they were being manipulated. Who told them about the god? Okay, we can have that conversation forever. But I do think there's a different thrust that people experience. Where like, you feel like you are doing something or moving towards something. And while it doesn't replace your community, for me.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:50Trevor Noah?

  It it adds to my community.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 56:52Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I'm saying? Like even working with you, like at the Daily Show, working with people. There's like a vibe of like where I'm like, yeah, we're like, we're trying to do something. Sometimes we don't, sometimes we do.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:01Trevor Noah?

  But there's like a, it's like we're trying to move in the same direction. And and that for me, if you do it right, I think it's, I think it's something beautiful. But to your point, I think a lot of companies scam people on that. That's why I was asking about the values.

• 57:15Speaker 01

  But even if they're sincere, I just don't think that's the role of a company. I think that's a profound failure.

• 57:20Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, but I'm saying, but I'm saying.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Cause like, I know the people who wanna go to, like, people in my family, like, I go to work, I come home.

• 57:25Trevor Noah?

  No, but I agree, I agree with you. But I'm saying, what are you doing at work? That's maybe my thing. Cause I agree with you. I go to work, I come back, yes. But then there's also a third option, which is, which work do I go to?

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:38Trevor Noah?

  That's what I think about.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  If I offered you more money to go have the exact same job with a different person, would you take it immediately?

• 57:44Speaker 01

  No, but I'm in this cult with Trevor.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  So, but, but hold on.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  He's kind of, but I can't get rid of him.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  But you just said, you just, you just said.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  I'm in, I'm in the corporate cult.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  So you just, but so, so you're not, but you're not, but you're not following your own rules.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  No, I'm saying, I feel that, I come from a position where I feel like it's a real luxury to do what I do. Like I get to write for a living, I get to think, I get to speak, right? Um, most of my people in my life, that's not what they do. It's not what my parents got to do, that's not what my grandparents got to do. So I, I guess I come from a different kind of working lineage.

• 58:18Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  And because of that, I don't try and entrust too much meaning into the job. Like it's not supposed to give me fulfillment or community.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  But it does.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  I, but, I mean, I'm, sometimes it does, not all the time.

• 58:31Speaker 02

  But sometimes it does.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  But when it doesn't.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  Sometimes your friends do, sometimes your friends don't.

• 58:34Speaker 01

  I think my, my issue is for. For most people, their job does not give them

• 58:40Speaker 02

  I agree with you.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  that profound sense of meaning. And I'm just like, we need to live in a world that even if your job doesn't give you that, that's fine. But it seems that what you do and a lot of people advocate is coming from it from the other side. But let's make these businesses give to people what their general world should be given to them.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  My, my, my, I don't, I hear you.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:59Speaker 02

  And I, I just appreciate the irony of the thing you're railing against is the thing that you fully have embraced. Which is, if I offered you more, you said it's just a place to make money.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  To serve my family and I would get my community somewhere else. But if I offered you more money to work for somebody else.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  That's why, you know, champagne socialist.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, but if I, but if I, but if I gave you more money to go somewhere else, you wouldn't want to. You'd want to stay here because you quote unquote like it here. And, and you feel on some occasions that you actually are contributing, like the messages you're spreading and the, and especially on the Daily Show, you know, the stuff that you're putting out there in some way, shape or form was informing people and helping people understand the world and make sense of the world. That was the thing you were contributing to and it gave the work meaning. You didn't just come to work and be like, oh, I gotta work and write again. You're like, no, this is, I'm enjoying this because I feel like I'm advancing somewhere.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  And maybe I come to it from a different vantage point as like, as a mother. I have a lot of friends who have decided to spend like the very early childhood years at, with their children, which is a privilege. And it's because the thing that takes you out of the home has to be so fulfilling to be like, I'm not gonna be with this kid when they're learning to walk and they're learning to talk, et cetera, et cetera.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

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• 1:00:46Trevor Noah?

  One of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watch. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. Thanksgiving is one of those meals where every dish carries a little more meaning because the table is really about the people around it.

• 1:01:30Trevor Noah?

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• 1:02:13Trevor Noah?

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• 1:02:26Speaker 03

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• 1:02:48Trevor Noah?

  How do we better find, not necessarily the purpose, and not always the meaning, but sort of that that why?

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Trevor Noah?

  But notice that it's always shifting.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Trevor Noah?

  Do you know what I mean? So I understand like you're talking to a company and you're saying to them, look, you are a collection of people.

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Trevor Noah?

  And so you have to ask yourself what you would like this collection of people to be moving towards.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:11Trevor Noah?

  Or how you would like them to even be with one another.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:13Trevor Noah?

  Right? That's what that's what I assume you're doing.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  On a good day.

• 1:03:17Trevor Noah?

  Yeah. But there are also people, right? And so I wonder whether, you know, looking at your own life or looking at all of the learnings that you've come across, is there a way that we can all, doesn't matter where we are in our in our world, is there a way that we can always hone hone in on the sort of quote unquote, why that shifts? Because to your point, I I think it's great that a mother goes, I don't know about my job. And I think we should be living in a world where

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:44Trevor Noah?

  you are able to do that.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Trevor Noah?

  Because the same people who will complain about women like, you know, oh, she's having kids and blah, are the same people who often complain about birth rates declining.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56Trevor Noah?

  I always find that, you know, ironic. They'll be like, the birth rates, look at the birth rates. And I'm like, but who do you think gives birth? And why do you think that they're not having as much birth time? You know? Yes, because, no, really, I do believe that.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Cost is so great.

• 1:04:11Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, I would love to know what you think we could do.

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  So, by the way, I think you and I agree more than not, which is just my attitude is, is like, it's the world is the way it is.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  And if if we're gonna go to work, then work should at least feel like I'm contributing and I and I want I want to go home at the end of the day. Like, you know, if you work hard for something you believe in, it's passion.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  If you work for hard for something you don't believe in, it's stress. And I would rather people, even if they work really hard, to be like, you know what? The sacrifice was worth it because I feel like my work It meant something. has some value

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  It meant something.

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  in the world.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  When it's done right, it's gorgeous. But the problem is, and you said it, superficially, people say the same words, talk about the same values. The difference is they're not actually living them or doing them. To go to your point about the why. The a why is fundamentally an origin story. That's all it is. And a why does not change. You have one why your whole life. And that's it. Because you are the sum total of how you were raised.

• 1:05:12Trevor Noah?

  You have one why your whole life?

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  You have one why your whole life.

• 1:05:15Trevor Noah?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, Simon. Now I'm gonna be fighting with you before we go. Wait, what?

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:20Trevor Noah?

  Tell me more.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  Oh, and now we're out of time.

• 1:05:25Trevor Noah?

  You have one why?

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  You have one why your entire life. Because you are the product of how you were raised.

• 1:05:31Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  That's I mean, you're not gonna like you are who you are.

• 1:05:34Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  And there's nothing that can happen in your life that will make you not who you are. Now, you can pretend you're someone different. We would call you inauthentic. And when I uncover a why, literally, all I'm doing is going backwards. Discover the patterns of what made you who you are. And then I'm trying to put words on them. And it's the same for a company. Walt Disney, when it does things right, is fundamentally the origin story of Walt Disney's vision of the world. This escape from the stressful lives that we have to go into this magical place and we can leave reality for a moment. It's that's literally what it says in the plaque outside Disneyland, you know? And that's all it's if you look at the beginnings of things. We can do a little, we can here, let's have a little fun.

• 1:06:13Trevor Noah?

  I've been having fun, just for the record.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Simon's like, I haven't been having fun.

• 1:06:17Trevor Noah?

  I've only been having fun.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Welcome to what now we're trying to know.

• 1:06:24Trevor Noah?

  I've only been having fun.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  Tell me something specific that you've worked on in your entire career. It does not have to have been commercially successful.

• 1:06:33Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  But something specific that you worked on in your career that you loved being a part of. And if every project was like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive. Something specific.

• 1:06:49Trevor Noah?

  This is my thinking music, everyone. When I think properly.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  Hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm.

• 1:06:58Trevor Noah?

  It would probably be

• 1:07:02Trevor Noah?

  the White House Correspondents' Dinner.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  Okay. Tell me, tell me of all of the amazing things you've done in this remarkable career of yours, what was it about the White House Correspondents' Dinner that stands out that you want to bring it up now?

• 1:07:14Trevor Noah?

  So I've actually thought a lot about this, so I'm also cheating a little bit, everyone, because I do think about this all the time. The reason it was that for me was because firstly, I had no boss. This is very important to me in life, right? I had no boss. Secondly, the thing had a natural conclusion, right? It does not go infinitely, right? I think everything should end. I'm a big fan of endings. It's wonderful in life. Third is I could bring on whoever I wanted. And it was a wide range of people, by the way. Some people were writers, some people were not. Some people were comedians, some people were not, okay?

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  You've had those experiences in other jobs. When you were at The Daily Show, you could fill the writer's room with whatever you wanted. I mean, you had a boss, but kind of.

• 1:08:02Trevor Noah?

  No, no, no, but it makes a big difference. It's like, because at The Daily Show, for instance, I was working for somebody. And the somebody I'm working for is the network. So you're always fighting this balance between what do you think is important to do or create? And what do these people want? Because you can do what you think is important. And if the ratings are terrible, at some point, they go, it's time for you to leave, right? So now you, and to be honest with you, I think that's one of the biggest problems with television and art right now in the world, right? If you look at the MGM logo, you know, it's Trayvon, our friend who was on one of the podcasts. He pointed this out to me even. It's like in Latin, we know when that lion roars before the movie? In Latin, it says there, art for the sake of art.

• 1:08:46Trevor Noah?

  And I don't think we do that anymore. Yeah. I don't think we, like, people don't make movies because they think making a movie is a beautiful thing for people to experience. People don't tell stories because it's like, it just makes you feel good as a person. No, uh, okay, how much would it get? Uh, will there be a sequel? Can we get more money? Are there, is there franchising?

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  For you, the Correspondence Center was pure.

• 1:09:11Trevor Noah?

  In, in as many ways as it could be, yes, it was. Do you get what I'm saying? And so, and so that's the thing.

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  So if everything in your life was like that, game, game on.

• 1:09:18Trevor Noah?

  Game on.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  Okay. Tell me, um, an early, specific, happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you.

• 1:09:27Trevor Noah?

  An early, specific?

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  Happy childhood memory.

• 1:09:30Trevor Noah?

  Childhood memory. Damn, this is an interesting one. Let me think. Cause there's many. How, how old? Give me an age and I'll tell you.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  I don't care.

• 1:09:37Trevor Noah?

  No, but what, what, when does childhood end?

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  Forty-two.

• 1:09:43Trevor Noah?

  Okay, no, I'm being serious though.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  I want, when you're, when you're, you know, a child, like under, you know, in, in school, like a

• 1:09:48Trevor Noah?

  Okay.

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  An early, an early childhood memory.

• 1:09:50Trevor Noah?

  One of my happiest childhood memories is me

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  The only one who's ever asked me, what do you mean by childhood?

• 1:09:56Trevor Noah?

  Yes, because, because I think, because I think your memories at different ages are very

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  Definitely early, specific childhood memories.

• 1:10:01Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, so, okay, when I think of young, young, one of my favorite memories was uh, playing, um, on the, on the roundabout at a park near my house.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  This is something, a, a specific time, not just a thing you did regularly?

• 1:10:14Trevor Noah?

  This is, it was a specific one.

• 1:10:15Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, go on.

• 1:10:16Trevor Noah?

  And we were all seeing how, we were all teaming up. I got a bunch of people together to see how fast we could make this thing spin. But like, it was, it was a monumental effort. Do you know what I mean? Cause everyone had to be at the right place, swinging the thing at the right time to get it. Our goal was to make it fly. That was the dream. We thought if we spin it hard enough, it's gonna take off. And this, this was a, but that was one of my, when I think back, I go like, wow, what a day. What a day.

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  And of all the amazing things you had happen in this magical childhood that you've talked about, what specifically was it about this one thing that stands out so much that you want to talk about it now?

• 1:10:51Trevor Noah?

  Well, I think for me, it's many of the things that I was saying with the White House Correspondents Dinner. Right? It's collaboration. I chose the people I was doing it with. We didn't pick the random kids who in you had no coordination because the thing's gonna smack you in the hands. Right? So we got the strongest, fastest, smartest, like, you know, most affable. We put the people together. And we were like, this works. So it wasn't like, if you were the small kid, then your job might have been to be more on the inside. If you were the big kid, your job was to push. But we put people together and it matched in many ways. Right? And the most important thing, funny enough, Simon Sinek, the most important thing was that we were having fun. And I mean this genuinely. We were having, we had a purpose, but man, we were having fun.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  So you, so, so now what I'm doing is I'm looking for the connection between those things and saying, okay, that's the common factor. Right? You're the first person I've ever talked to, ever, and I've done hundreds of these, who said, I'm telling you the same story. I can hear that they're the same story, but you're the first person who can hear it, who is able to.

• 1:11:49Trevor Noah?

  Oh, yeah, I'm always cognizant of these things.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  So I'm just, so just to pay you that compliment, that you're living outside your own head. The, the, but this is the thing, which is you, that where you find great joy is when you can bring the right people together to do something that matters and have a ton of fun doing it.

• 1:12:10Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  Okay? And that's sort of your, your purpose in life, which is to bring people together, to do something bigger than themselves and have a good time doing it.

• 1:12:18Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:12:18Speaker 02

  And if everything you do in your life, you can, is, is that, is that, is that.

• 1:12:23Trevor Noah?

  Yeah, that merry-go-round. We go to call it merry-go-round.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And everything in your life was like that roundabout, you, you, that is what a game on is.

• 1:12:30Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  And so the opportunity for you is to remind yourself of that. Right? So I, whether you get a Lego merry-go-round or a picture of a merry-go-round or just you, that merry-go-round.

• 1:12:41Trevor Noah?

  Oh, this is, I like this. I like sentimental things.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  The merry-go-round is, it's your, it's your talisman. It's your, it's your, it's the thing that reminds you of why you get out of bed today. All you want to do in life is work tirelessly to create the merry-go-round. Right? And, and the thing is, is because you're, you have vision, we're gonna make this thing fly.

• 1:13:00Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  Okay? So. People go huh? And you go you, you, you, and you.

• 1:13:06Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  Okay? And now they're all coming in and you're having a blast. And whether it succeeds or fails, it didn't fly.

• 1:13:11Trevor Noah?

  It did not fly.

• 1:13:12Speaker 02

  It did not fly.

• 1:13:12Trevor Noah?

  It did not.

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  It did not fly. So it actually failed. If we're really honest with ourselves. But it didn't matter. Because it was the joy of the together and the fun, even with the vision that made it worth it. It was the exact same thing for the Correspondence Dinner. You'd never said at any point, and I frickin nailed it.

• 1:13:29Trevor Noah?

  No, that's not the point.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Right? The point wasn't the result.

• 1:13:31Trevor Noah?

  No.

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  The point was the people coming together.

• 1:13:33Trevor Noah?

  The outcome is a bonus. I always say this.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  The outcome is a bonus.

• 1:13:35Trevor Noah?

  But now let me, let me ask you this, because I, I love this for me. No, no, I appreciate it. But so the last thing I'll ask you before we go is this then. For the person, and I think this is sort of what Christiana is saying. For those who are not lucky enough to find themselves in that place, in that moment. Some people can't be in a park. They can't choose the kids. They can't, do you get what I'm saying?

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  So you know.

• 1:13:55Trevor Noah?

  What is the, what is the trick that you would recommend? And I mean this honestly, because I go, I really go every.

• 1:13:59Speaker 02

  You're comparing your why everybody has.

• 1:14:03Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:14:03Speaker 02

  So like, so, and it doesn't have to be a happily childhood memory. So I did this with somebody a few years ago. And I said, tell me an early childhood memory. And they said, I had a horrible childhood.

• 1:14:11Trevor Noah?

  Yes.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  I said, well, tell me another, another, any memory. And they said, I had a very, very alcoholic, abusive father. And he would go on these drunken rampages. And I remember hiding in the closet. Um, and I wrapped my sister underneath me to protect her from my father. And you know, we're both crying as she's telling the story. She's a protector. She wakes up every day to protect those who can't protect themselves. I can bring my, I can make myself, bring myself to tears talking about it. Right? And she was struck by this pattern. That she's, she's at her natural best and she finds peace when she's able to offer protection to others. From, from whatever it is. And so these patterns exist for everyone. They're not the same as yours.

• 1:14:54Trevor Noah?

  Right.

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  And whenever somebody hears that pattern, the result is goosebumps, some sort of emotional response.

• 1:15:02Trevor Noah?

  So all I ask you is for that person now, let's, let's imagine a person who goes, Simon, I don't have much in the way of my community. And this is because of, you know, a series of factors. You know, there isn't a club, there isn't a that, there isn't whatever. I work because this was the only job I could get. So I don't have the luxury of being recruited. And I haven't been found by where I would like to be found. Okay? But I'm also looking for a piece of this.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:24Trevor Noah?

  And my job is a soul sucking experience where they want me here from the earliest time to the latest time.

• 1:15:29Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:29Trevor Noah?

  And I give all of my energy to this thing. And then when I get home, I have to look after my family and this is a. How how do they find that or what are you saying to that person? Where they don't have the immediate luxury of like springing out, searching for it, going to another place, doing another thing. What what is like a what's like a because there's always something we can do.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Confusing struggle and joy.

• 1:15:49Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  So I went to I went to Kenya this year. And we went into the Mara in, you know, to the poor neighborhoods. And we got to meet some remarkable remarkable human beings. And I started to realize that we from the West come in. I mean, it's like your story.

• 1:16:10Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  You know, it's like, we have it so good.

• 1:16:13Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:14Speaker 02

  You have nothing. You live in a mud hut. How can you be happy? You know, I'll show you happiness. Come look at my house with all my stuff, right? And all they do is smile. And you look at the children and say, they have nothing. They have no toys and they're they've got a tire and a stick and they're laughing. And there's data on this, that children that have more toys actually have don't have as good imaginations. Yes, he's got a tire and a stick and he's got an active imagination. And those kids, those boys and girls, all they do is smile and play. And I met these remarkable people who absolutely their life is difficult. And the walking four hours to sell.

• 1:16:53Trevor Noah?

  Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:54Speaker 02

  It is absolutely a life of hardship. But they are happy and they have joy in life and they look after each other. And it's everything you said, when somebody needs a house, we help them build a house.

• 1:17:04Trevor Noah?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  And the sense of community they have, and it made me realize that we in the West are addicted to money. And.

• 1:17:13Speaker 02

  And we look at other people who don't have our addiction and we feel sorry for them because they don't have our high. Like it's a heroin addict feeling sorry for all the people who don't have a heroin high. And they're looking at us going, you're a heroin addict.

• 1:17:25Trevor Noah?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  But it feels so good to be on heroin, right? And that's us in the West. We're all so intoxicated with what the money feels like. We've forgotten about community. We've forgotten about sacrifice. We've forgotten about giving. We've forgotten about helping. We've forgotten about imagination. And I went in thinking, what can I give? And I came out saying, what must I learn?

• 1:17:49Trevor Noah?

  I love that. But again, I'm just gonna push you on this because I need a tip. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Because I agree with all of that. But this is why I think Christiana and I are friends. Because I understand a lot of what she's saying, honestly, like innately. So I'm saying now that people are in this situation, what's like a hack? Because there are some people who literally, they can't find the community because there is no community. They don't have the people around them. They live in a different country, maybe. They live, maybe their family doesn't even talk to them. Is there like a, just like a little?

• 1:18:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:18Trevor Noah?

  Hack or something you can move, that can move you towards that?

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. And the answer is service.

• 1:18:24Trevor Noah?

  Oh, damn.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  I have a friend who was struggling. She knows what I do. And she came to me and said, I need your help. I said, okay. So we got together every Wednesday for 90 minutes. And she told me what she was going through. And her marriage is falling apart. And her career wasn't going the right way. And her kids were driving her crazy. And just, she wasn't having a good time. And every Wednesday, I would give her some counsel, some advice. And she'd feel great. And that'd last for about two days. And then she'd go back. And then she'd come back next Wednesday and she'd feel great. You see this pattern. This went on for months. And I finally sort of remembered my own work. And I remembered, you know, sort of my own work in service. And like, I looked into Alcoholics Anonymous. You know, the 12-step program, the first step is admitting you have a problem. And if you master 11 steps, but not the 12th, you're gonna succumb to the disease.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  But if you master the 12th, you're gonna, you're more likely to beat the disease. The 12th step is to help another alcoholic.

• 1:19:14Trevor Noah?

  Wow.

• 1:19:15Speaker 02

  It's service. That's the 12th step. So I said to her, I sort of, I did a little social experiment on us. I said, Every week we get together and I help you. And I'm realizing I need help too. I trust you more than anybody. You're my best friend. I love you and I need coaching too. And I was being deadly serious. It wasn't a game. And can we split our time? Forty-five for me, forty-five for you. She said, absolutely. So the next week we got together and we spent ninety minutes talking about me. And she gave me advice and she gave me counsel. And the next week we got together and just by accident. It's not like we planned it this way. We spent ninety minutes talking about me. Within about two months, her life was back on track and she was golden. So what I recommend to people who are struggling with whatever it is. I can't find love. I can't find happiness. I can't find a job.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  I can't find whatever it is I'm looking for. Find someone who's struggling with the same thing and help them find the thing they're looking for. And by the way, it reinforces everything that we've been talking about this whole time, which is community is the thing. But when we're selfishly minded, we don't build community. Yeah. And if you look at all of those places that we have all visited, that we love, that have community, everything is about service. That's all of it. That's all it is. Well, I don't have the time. I don't have the energy. That's where the sacrifice comes from. We find a way to find the energy to help you build your house, even though I got my own struggles. And the joy of giving time and energy, non-redeemable commodities, unlike money, you know, you make more money, to someone to see the benefit that they derive,

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  has an impact on human beings that is hard to calculate. A fulfillment that you get that is only, can only be described as joy. And the reason is because that is the biology of how we're designed. That is Mother Nature's desperate attempt to get the species to survive. And we will only survive if we help each other. That's why it feels so good. And that's what purpose is. Purpose for me, the deepest meaning of purpose for me is it's the opportunity to serve those who serve others.

• 1:21:13Trevor Noah?

  Damn, you sound like my mom. No wonder she always says service. Okay. We, Christiana, are you?

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  No, I'm, I'm.

• 1:21:18Trevor Noah?

  Are you gonna, no, are you gonna do the thing?

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  No, because I agree with him now.

• 1:21:22Trevor Noah?

  No, but you, so you don't, we don't want to find your underbumps?

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  We'll do it another time. We'll do it in private.

• 1:21:25Trevor Noah?

  Okay. No, no, that's fine. I was just asking.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  No, but I agree. I agree with that.

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  We'll do it in private.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  Um, the service stuff. It's, I think that's.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  It's what it's about.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's a life well-lived.

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:21:34Trevor Noah?

  Well, you see, as I said, I never know what's gonna happen when I sit down with Simon Sinek. But at the end of it, there's, there's something else that I discover, a new way to see like a paradigm or, you know? And I think everyone listening had the same experience. Simon Sinek, thank you so much for joining us.

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me. Such a joy.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Thank you. You've got to take me to those good companies.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  I'll take you.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  I thought you were thinking about Chobani, the founder of that yogurt company.

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I haven't met him yet, but I mean, they have a great reputation. I can take you if you really want to see some cool stuff. We can take you to see some cool stuff.

• 1:22:02Trevor Noah?

  Thank you.

• 1:22:09Trevor Noah?

  What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.

• 1:22:48Speaker 03

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