You Don't Build a Career from the Sidelines (Malika Andrews & Taylor Rooks)

Malika Andrews and Taylor Rooks have two of the most visible jobs in sports media. Malika is the face of ESPN's NBA coverage, hosting NBA Today and NBA Countdown. Taylor hosts NBA on Prime and is a major presence across Thursday Night Football. Between them they're speaking to millions of people every week — and interviewing some of the most famous athletes in the world. They’ve also had a front-row seat to each other’s rise. And while they’re both incredibly ambitious and competitive, they’ve learned how to let someone else’s success push them without allowing it to diminish their own. Emma sits down with both of them to understand what it actually takes to become that trusted at that scale — the preparation nobody sees, how you get an athlete to tell you the truth, and what it costs to do a job where every word, every question and every mistake gets picked apart in real time. In this episode: Why preparation gives you the confidence to perform under pressureTrust as a daily deposit: accurate, honest, and fairHow healthy competition can raise your own standardWhy asking for what you want can change the trajectory of your careerHow to negotiate from a place of knowing your valueWhy credibility is built through small, consistent actionsHow to tell the difference between feedback worth hearing and noiseWhy longevity, not the next job, is the real ambitionFor more, subscribe to our weekly newsletter at emmagrede.com http://emmagrede.com.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Emma Grede?

  My guests today, Malika Andrews and Taylor Rooks, have two of the most visible jobs in sports media right now. Between them, they're speaking to millions of people every week and interviewing some of the most famous athletes in the world. And they've made whole careers and names for themselves while doing it. Malika is the face of ESPN's NBA coverage, hosting NBA Today and NBA Countdown. Taylor is the host of NBA on Prime and a major presence across Thursday Night Football. So I was really interested in what it takes to become that excellent and that trusted at that scale. How you prepare, how you understand your value, how you keep learning, and how competition can push you to raise your own standard. We also talk about the reality of working in an industry

• 0:54Emma Grede?

  where every word, every question, and every mistake can be picked apart in real time, and how you protect both your credibility and your sense of self when that much opinion is coming at you every day. Here's my conversation with Malika Andrews and Taylor Rooks.

• 1:15Emma Grede?

  A good snack has to do more than just get you from one meal to the next. It has to be easy, it has to fit into your day, and ideally, it should be something that you actually want to eat. That is what Stars and Honey gets right. They looked at the protein bar category, saw that everyone was settling, and set a different standard. They make protein bars with 15 grams of protein and only four grams of sugar. But the thing that stands out is the flavor. They have iced lemon cookie, mint choc chip, red velvet, peanut butter mousse. They feel much more like something that you would choose for the taste, not just for the nutrition label. And that is what makes them easy to keep around. You're not talking yourself into it. You're just reaching for something that sounds good and still fits the way you want to eat. Stars and Honey Protein Bars are now available

• 2:00Emma Grede?

  at starsandhoney.com or at Target stores nationwide. Order online now or pick up a box during your next Target shopping trip.

• 2:11Emma Grede?

  Malika and Taylor, welcome to Aspire.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Thank you. So happy to be here.

• 2:16Emma Grede?

  Honestly, I am so happy to have the pair of you here. I cannot tell you how much I've been looking forward to this specific episode because you ladies have built the most incredible careers for yourself. In the space that you're in, it's amazing to have two women at this level doing exactly what you do. But also, you know what kills me is that people want to come and listen to exactly what you've got to say, and they gravitate towards your shows for as much of the information that you're giving, but also just to see you two. And I think that we're all looking at you going, how did you build these careers? What is it all about? What has it taken? What does it feel like to sit in your seats? And so I'm really excited to be able to have the two of you together today to really delve into what it takes

• 3:00Emma Grede?

  to be in this highly competitive, male-dominated space where the two of you are shining like two beautiful lights that you are, but also just killing the game. And I also love that you even grab each other.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Well, we actually don't get to spend as much time together as people might assume because we sort of work on opposite days, the days that Amazon has are opposite the days that ESPN has. We don't actually get to see each other that much.

• 3:26Emma Grede?

  So you guys both have jobs that I think millions of people find completely enviable. And it does feel like you're living the dream to some extent. But I wonder if, when you're in it, it actually feels that way.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  I would say it did not start feeling that way for me until pretty recently.

• 3:42Emma Grede?

  Okay, when?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  When I started hosting NBA on Prime, I had a conversation with Jared, who is one of my bosses, and we were just talking about how important it is to look around and realize that what I'm doing right now is a destination job. Like, for so much of my career, it has been like, what is next? There is more to do. You are not doing enough. What's the next show, the next interview? And so you don't stop around when you're like on the mountain and look at the view. You're kind of like, well, there's another mountain over there. But now I see that this is the thing that I have worked for for so long and the thing that I feel like I deserve. So I wasn't really even considering the fact that I've lived the dream until pretty recently.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  I completely empathize with that feeling. And also, I think that ambitious people, you're coded to go for the next and to look at what else there is. But at the same time, you have to remember that these are the things that at one point you could only imagine, right? That you were going to be able to do. And when you're looking at your mentors or people that you admire, and then all of a sudden, people, you get these emails from students asking you the question, me? Like, I'm the person that is looking, you're looking for the answers. And so I do think that that is a part of the journey. But that's never, I don't think that's what either of us set out with the thought of doing. And it's also fragile, right?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  So fragile.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  It's something that requires daily care. And so I think that when you sit and say, well, this is the dream and I'm content with that, that can negate the care.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  It is this balance of understanding that you are where you earned, but acting out of this kind of survival mode that something can be taken away also feels like why I got to where I am. So it's hard for me to gather the mindset that, okay, tomorrow, this could all go to shit. Because I feel like considering that is why I stay on top of everything. And so you're having to balance exhaling and saying, okay, I did it, with, okay, this thought that you maybe weren't going to do it is what got you to even the exhale.

• 5:54Emma Grede?

  I mean, I want to talk to you guys a lot about competition and contentment and how you actually feel given the roles you're in. But what's so nice about you two is that you've been able to watch one another come up. And I wonder what you think the other person does exceptionally well? Because it's sometimes so much easier to look at somebody else and go, she's really excellent. But what do you see in one another?

• 6:16Speaker 02

  First and foremost, Taylor's an incredibly kind person. And not just nice, I mean, deeply, deeply kind. We're only a couple of years apart. But I knew who Taylor was sort of when I was coming out of college. And I saw her as someone who I wanted to emulate in a lot of ways. She's a fantastic interviewer. When I was a reporter covering the Milwaukee Bucks and living in Milwaukee, there was another beat writer that I became friendly with and had a deep respect for. And he would sometimes write these stories that it was like, gosh, I wish I wrote that story. I wish I wrote that story. But I also have enough respect for you

• 7:01Speaker 02

  that I respect the job that you did here. And man, you did it well. So we had a shorthand for these stories. We called them F-U stories. Like, we would just walk in at the end of a practice and be like, by the way, F-U, you got that story and it was awesome. And so I told Taylor about this when she started at Amazon. I said, I think we're going to be swapping a lot of those F-U stories now.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  She always lets me know.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  I always tell her, in the best way, when you interviewed Jason Tatum after his first interview when he came back from his injury, that was an F-U story. And so that's sort of our shorthand. Because to your point, ambitious people are competitive. But competition doesn't mean that you are going against each other. It just means that this is a ladder and we are going to continue to use each other as measuring sticks.

• 7:43Emma Grede?

  And I love that.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  No, that is so kind. Thank you. I mean, I think Malika does so many things well. The first thing that sticks out to me, though, is it is clear every single time that I watch you on TV how prepared you are. And there was a time, this was maybe three years ago, four years ago, but we were on the same flight to New York for the draft. And she was sitting maybe two rows ahead of me. And from takeoff to landing, she was in this binder, highlighting on her computer, talking to, honestly, what I believe was your producer, maybe next to you. And I mean, she worked the entire way. And I know that she was working on things that she probably already knew, but she just wanted to be sure that she knew them for this big moment of the draft.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  And whenever Malika is on a program, you know that you're going to be getting the right information because I know how deeply you care about the job. So your preparedness for sure sticks out to me. You're incredibly poised on air. You're never rattled. Even if there's an earthquake, you are there and ready. And I don't know if I have ever told you this, but I also think you are a resolute person. I think that so much of your career, when you think about kind of the middle of ESPN in many ways, you were kind of thrown into a fire and you had to figure out how you were going to do this thing and be this person. And I think sometimes we don't give ourselves enough credit for the things that we have been able to do and accomplish when our backs are somewhat against the wall.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  And you absolutely did that. And so I hope that when you consider just what you were thrown into in that moment in 2020, that you made it work and you excelled even more than maybe you thought that you were going to. So many things I admire about your path, but that's what sticks out.

• 9:31Emma Grede?

  Oh, I love hearing this from you two. So Malika, let's just talk about it because you actually started as a writer before moving into TV. And now you do this beautiful bounce between live TV and one-to-one interviews. And I wonder what you actually had to learn at each stage of your career.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  I started as a newspaper reporter.

• 9:49Speaker 02

  And that's all I ever wanted to be. I wanted to work for the New York Times. I started out of school as an intern for the New York Times and I loved it. That's what I wanted to do my entire career. And so when the New York Times told me, you know, working for the New York Times is like a Supreme Court justice seat. It's a seat for life and you're not ready. I was so crushed and they were right. I needed some time and some experience. But what I think is important to know about me, when I was growing up, I had a really difficult time making sense of the world and my place in it. And writing is the way that I did that. So when I was a teenager, my parents sent me away to a psychiatric unit

• 10:31Speaker 02

  and then to a wilderness program and then to a residential boarding school. And I never graduated high school similarly, I know to you. You had this story and the way that I made sense of that was just writing about my story. And what I've found is that any story that is negative, you can also choose to look at it through a positive lens. But writing and the care and the time to go over those drafts and those edits is how I made sense of that. And I also think when I was in school, I looked around and I saw a market void. Newspapers were working to fill. All of my friends wanted to go into television. Gratefully so, it's awesome. And hard news television. And the thought, right? And I'm sure you heard this.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  So you're going to have to start in market 168 to do that.

• 11:18Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  And what was happening at the same time was that newspapers were looking around. This was the height of the conversation after Colin Kaepernick. And this was ahead of George Floyd and all of these other things. And newsrooms are looking around and saying, oh, we have a perspective problem here. We don't have the complete story and we need to hire to have a complete story. And so it was a little bit serendipitous and met with looking around and saying, I believe that there is a real need here that led me to the newspaper piece of all of it.

• 11:53Emma Grede?

  It's pretty amazing. Like when you think about the timing of your life and how that lines out.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  But isn't that one, it always, all successful people.

• 12:00Emma Grede?

  It always is.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Luck favors the prepared. And there's always an element of that. I think with, with any successful person, that sprinkle of luck is a piece of it. You were at SNY, I think, when I first sort of started to the, the Michael Beasley interview. And kind of that's when I first started to see you in that, in the zeitgeist.

• 12:17Emma Grede?

  Taylor, it's so funny because I feel like so much of your reputation is based on these interviews that you've done that make people feel so unbelievably comfortable to tell us things that they might not otherwise. I want to understand a little bit about what building your career has taught you about yourself.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  It has certainly taught me that people trust me and that people want to talk to me. And this is going to sound weird, but I think it has really taught me that people like me, which really I think is about me liking myself. And I think that when you really like yourself, you are genuinely curious about other people. You want to talk to other people. You want to learn about other people. And I think when you're someone who doesn't like yourself, it's all over the place. And I know that because I have been a person who at points in my life did not like myself. When I was young, my story was more that I was not necessarily growing up in a place where we spoke about like emotions for most of my life. If you asked me, how do I feel? I had truly no idea what to say.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  The only emotions I knew were like happy or sad. And no one was really saying to me, hey, how do you feel? Everything was go, go, go, go, go. But what that sort of void and knowing how I felt, it made me very good at seeing how other people like felt and what they wanted to talk about and what they wanted to know about themselves. I even think that my skill for the interviewing or the warmth or the charisma, a lot of it is about the fact that I did not want to be talking about myself.

• 13:47Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  So much of charm and charisma is your interest in other people. And mine came from, maybe we take it off of me, you know? And then just through time, that really became something that I got good at. I turned what I think were shortcomings into like a bit of a superpower.

• 14:06Emma Grede?

  No doubt.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  And now when it comes to definitely being on TV, but also when it comes to interviewing, our instinct is to make everybody think that we are the most interesting person. But when you make other people think that they are so interesting, they will tell you anything that you want to know. And people like to talk about themselves. And so I definitely pride myself on giving people a space to just be who they are.

• 14:30Emma Grede?

  I wonder if when you think about your careers and you think about what you're both so good at and where you are now, if you've been able to boil it down to any like principles. Are there principles that you have when you think about exactly where you are today?

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Well, I, I do think that in the, in live TV specifically, but I think for anybody in any workplace, preparation is such a big part of that. It also shows the curiosity before you even walk into the room.

• 14:57Emma Grede?

  Why is it so unsurprising that she was sitting on the flight the whole time? You need to know you for about 20 seconds. She was on air that she's the most prepared of life.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  But to Taylor's point about having to learn to like yourself, I think that that's been, it's, it's an ongoing process for me and that's been a part of it. Right? Continuing to make a plan so that you can break the plan and that you can write it down and go back to it. I think that that is, is such a, a skill that has to be honed. I know you believe deeply in intention and what you put out in the world comes back to you. And I had to, I think, see that in action. I started at ESPN, right? Like not anywhere. I started at ESPN on national television when I was 22. I wasn't a fully formed.

• 15:44Emma Grede?

  Not.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right? I wasn't somebody who had it all figured out. I was someone who was learning and making mistakes and getting better and picking up the phone and saying, sorry, and how can I change? And what can I? Because I think that that's what it requires. Your twenties, that's what they're for, right? They are for learning and growing into who you are and the principles that you want to be and have. And so for me, I think that is being prepared. It is being kind. And also when those other things creep in, it's, I, I oftentimes say to myself, okay, yes, and what else is true?

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Right? That is, that is the constant reframe of, all right, yes, and what else is true?

• 16:32Emma Grede?

  Taylor, what do you think? What are, what are the principles do you think that have made you so successful in this career?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  I tell myself all the time, you have to do this out of love and never for it. I think that when you do a job like this for love, your sense of self gets super rocked and it is important to me to maintain my very strong sense of self. I always say, all you have to do is ask. I feel that way about when I'm sitting and interviewing, but also when there's something that I want. I believe all you have to do is ask for that thing. And that has guided me in business and TV and all the things. And to always be driven by the pull and not the push is my big thing is, it is, it is very easy to let your circumstances cause you to make your decisions, but it's something that is drawing you to.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  And every like job that I have had, it has been a pull. Even if I have felt somewhat pushed out of my place, I feel like pulling is a much greater feeling for me.

• 17:35Emma Grede?

  A new season always makes getting dressed feel a little more interesting. You start seeing new colors, new silhouettes, new textures. And suddenly the things in your closet that felt fine a month ago, start to feel like they need a little refresh. But I also think trends can feel overwhelming if you treat them like rules. You do not need to buy a completely new wardrobe every season. The better way to think about trends is as a cheat sheet. They give you a few ideas for what to update and how to make the pieces you already own feel more current. That is where Macy's is really useful. They're not just showing you what's new. They're helping you decode the season. What is worth paying attention to? How to wear it and how to layer it into your own style? Now this fall, the first thing I would look at is color. Everything feels richer right now.

• 18:20Emma Grede?

  Chocolate brown is having such a strong moment and it works because it feels softer than black, but still just as polished. I also love the idea of lush greens with gray and stone. Those colors feel very full, but not too expected. And then there's suede. A suede handbag, a jacket, a boot, even a small accessory can change the whole feeling of an outfit. It adds texture and depth without needing to be loud. The second trend I think is really easy to work into your wardrobe is dark indigo denim. Most people already wear denim constantly, so this is just one of the simplest updates. A darker, more saturated wash makes denim feel more dressed, more intentional and a little sharper. You can wear it with a sweater and boots during the day or style it with a blouse and a jacket at night.

• 19:03Emma Grede?

  Then there are all the retro inspired patterns that are coming back. Heritage plaids, checks, stripes, classic blues and reds. That whole retro Americana feeling can be really fun for fall because it gives you that timeless layered look without feeling too precious. A plaid coat, a striped knit, a checked trouser. Those are pieces that bring personality into an outfit, but still feel wearable. The key is not to wear every trend at once. Pick the one that feels closest to your style and just build from there. If you already love neutrals, start with chocolate brown or suede. If you live in denim, try a darker indigo wash. If your wardrobe feels a little too plain, bring in a plaid or a stripe. That is how trends become useful.

• 19:45Emma Grede?

  They give you a direction, but they still leave you room to dress like yourself. And Macy's makes that easier because they have the four trends pulled together all in one place. You can find the color, the texture, the denim, the pattern, and then actually see how to put it together. Macy's has all the outfit know-how and trend expertise to give you a full trend cheat sheet. Shop now at macy's.com or in store.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher.

• 20:11Speaker 04

  And I'm Scott Galloway.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  And we want to tell you about Pivot, our twice weekly podcast.

• 20:15Speaker 04

  That's right, Kara. What a thrill. It's a chance for us to break down all the big things happening in tech, business and politics.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  Yes, and I keep you in check so people can make it through each episode, whether it's digging into constant changes in the world of AI and social media or trying to keep up with whatever the fuck Elon is doing. We're here to give you our take on all of that.

• 20:33Speaker 04

  Every Tuesday and Friday morning, we drop a new episode about some of the major stories of the moment.

• 20:39Speaker 03

  And Scott is a prediction machine, gazing into his crystal ball to tell you about where it's all heading.

• 20:44Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 20:45Speaker 03

  So if that sounds like a good time for you, especially Mr. That's right, you can follow us on your favorite podcast app to get new episodes every week.

• 21:00Emma Grede?

  There's just so many people, but specifically women out there that feel drawn to the types of careers that you have. And there is so much preparedness that goes into it. So will you just talk to me a little bit about what that looks like? Because it's more than you guys reading a set of pre-prepared notes that come from a producer for you. Like, what's the work of the work?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I would also say about Malika's job specifically is, I don't know if people really understand how much you are on TV. And like, when you are having to be on TV every single day, there is such a small margin for error. Like, you have to be prepared.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  How many hours a day do you think you spend on TV? Or like, a week, do you think you spend on TV? Because I do think this is, it's the piece of the pie. This is how much you're, you are sharing yourself with the world. And we know that that right now is something that is constant, that's something that is sort of always, that is the undercurrent and the vibrations. It's sort of, it's always happening for everybody now with, with social media.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  I mean, I would say, it's hard for, I obviously know what you mean. But it is hard for me to say that I feel like I share myself with the world. Because I don't know if I feel that way. I believe that I give the world important parts of myself. But I have always felt like my real life is what I can touch. And it is important to me to have that boundary largely because, I mean, whether it is athletes that we are around often, whether it is entertainers, whatever the case may be, I know what the world looks like when you give yourself too much, when you give the world too much of you. You have to have things that are for yourself. So I obviously understand the sentiment of what

• 22:48Speaker 01

  you mean. But that is something that actually keeps me very sane and grounded and peaceful in who I am. Now, when it comes to the work, of course, I am pouring myself into it all the time during NBA season. It's, you're watching games every night. So that's six hours. Then, you know, you wake up in the morning on the treadmill, you're listening to the podcast, you're reading the articles. I mean, during the season, it's pretty non-stop. Yeah. So I don't know if there is like an hour.

• 23:17Emma Grede?

  But Taylor, I want to dig into that a little bit, because actually, even the way that you say that, is that about self-preservation? Is that something that you have created in order to be able to do what you do, keeping a piece of you for you?

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Yes and no. I mean, definitely a self-preservation in having a self, you know? Like, sometimes you can lose the self because you are looking to adapt it to everyone around you, you know? And I just like, never want that to be me. The things that I hold close, I hold close because they are mine. I don't feel the need for people to comment on everything that I do. If someone has a comment about something I do that is incorrect, I also don't feel the need to correct them. Because there is real life, and there's what you think. And I always live in my reality. And for the, for the preservation aspect of it,

• 24:10Speaker 01

  like, I soak in things from everybody I'm around. And I have a lot of very close friends in my life that are very famous people. And they are always talking about the fact that at some point, the line just gets so blurred. And it's like, am I living for myself? Or am I living for who people believe me to be? And I just don't want to do that. Like, I know that every decision that I make, it is because I wanted to make the decision. It is not for a look. It is not for a headline. It is not for anything. So that's, that to me is just like, what you have to do to stay even. Because like, what we have signed up for, I think, is something so specific, especially because right now, you know, we go in there

• 24:54Speaker 01

  and what we're doing is just trying to do our job. But people are very interested in us as individuals.

• 24:59Emma Grede?

  Oh, yes. Oh, listen, I have a whole section. Well, as people, as brands, as your own specific entities, like, do you know what I mean? And that blurs a whole different line. And also, it's a huge part of what you do, right?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  I live a lot of my life, just looking at the hours on television. I just live a lot of my life on TV. And I do feel a sense and a duty and an obligation to let people know me to a degree. I want to feel known, and I want to know our audience. And I love when people come up and want to chat about sports. It's something that I love so very much, because sports is just a common thread of humanity. When people are looking for something to exhale, most times, people just want to come up to you and ask how the Lakers are doing. Like, what is happening over here? Right? And I love, I love, love, love that piece. And that is how I feel. I know people deeply, and they know me. The actual preparation and the work. Writing is the backbone, in addition to the tenants of everything I do.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  And so I show up to help our wonderful team of producers write the show every single day. So I'm in the office by eight for a show that's at noon. And it's sort of a constant hum. The preparation is baked into the lifestyle, I think, at this point, right? The preparation, the care, the hours is baked in, the time is baked in. But I show up, and I help write the show, and we have two meetings in the morning, and then we go on the air live at noon. And inevitably, there's some news that happens five minutes in, where we just go, everything that we've worked on for the last four hours.

• 26:31Emma Grede?

  Out the window.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  But having the preparation allows you to then be nimble. Knowing that you put in the work allows you to then be able to make a split second different decision. Because you have to have the confidence and knowledge, I say this to myself all the time, but you really know this deeply. You really know this well. And also, what people want to hear is a Man Schumpert, and Shania Twain, and Richard Jefferson, and Kendrick Perkins. These guys won NBA championships. Like, they, my job is to have the curiosity, to ask the questions that any basketball fan would want to ask an NBA champion. I fully and totally view hosting as a service job. I believe that I am a host, kind of from

• 27:17Speaker 02

  the second I walk into a room. It's in service to the people who are watching, the people who I am on set with. It is something that is about them first and foremost. And so if you come in with that curiosity, you're, I'm hosting people in my proverbial living room. And that's the, the preparation and the work.

• 27:34Emma Grede?

  I'm interested to ask you about, you know, because again, I do keep coming back to this idea of being in such a heavily male-dominated space. And obviously, coming into this business, there's an awareness of that. And I wonder.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Can I offer you something, Emma?

• 27:47Emma Grede?

  I would love.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  No male-dominated?

• 27:49Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah. So I heard this from a producer one time.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 27:52Emma Grede?

  I heard this from a producer one time, because we get asked all the time, what's it like to work in a male-dominated? I'm sure you get asked, what's, you're the only, you know, in a boardroom. No, I don't, I don't feel like I'm so, because I think that for me, it's like, earning, earning respect is very specific, right? And there are spaces that are male-dominated, and there are spaces that are designed for men. And you guys are in a space that is designed for men. I'm in a space, when we talk about the boards, and when we talk about, you know, the, the kind of financial piece of what I do, it's, it's very male-dominated, but it wasn't designed specifically for men. Yours is, and it's different.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  I heard this from a producer one time, and I repeat it often. What if we thought about it as, this is a space that's male-populated, but women also dominate?

• 28:39Emma Grede?

  And how do you feel about that sentence?

• 28:40Speaker 02

  I think that she is testament that that is true, right?

• 28:47Emma Grede?

  Do you feel like that, Taylor?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I do. I think it is dominated by those that are great at the job, you know? And I think that sometimes, especially with sports, because it just feels like the language is so important, that when we call it male-dominated, we're almost reinforcing this idea that we're a guest in the space, you know? And so I always want people to understand that being a woman in sports is not niche. Like, we aren't women in sports. We are sports, you know? But of course, it is a place that has lots of men, and it is male-heavy. But I don't know if the men are dominating the space as much as it is there are more of them.

• 29:24Emma Grede?

  But let's talk about that, right? Because I think that you can look at that in a number of different ways. Because I still feel that it's very rare that you will turn on the TV, and there's a panel of four women and one man. And certainly, when we start to talk about pay equity, and this, it doesn't matter if you are an athlete actually on the call, or indeed, if you are, you know, part of the media, but the pay disparity is big and fat and still there. So even if you look at it through those lenses, the domination exists. And I wonder how you think about earning your space, earning your place, negotiating your worth. There has to be a question that comes up, surely. Because I don't know the last time I read about a woman's giant media package in sports. And I read about

• 30:09Emma Grede?

  The men's all the time.

• 30:11Speaker 02

  I think that that's true. I want to, before we kind of fully get into the, the pay disparity part is, is real and necessary to kind of continuously examine more closely and to challenge and go back to. But in terms of the number of women doing big and important jobs, we are still in this, the place where there's a lot of firsts and a lot of onlys for women in sports and in sports media and the Doris Berks of the world who have sort of paved the way, right, for, for so very many of us. And I do see, I, I think it's important to call out the, the move of the needle because if there is not one, there

• 30:56Speaker 02

  cannot be two. If there's not two, there cannot be three and so on and so forth. And so I do think that we are starting to see that in many ways. But in terms of the, the pay piece of it, that's, that's a very, very real and important conversation. And it's why you do so much of the work that you do.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, the pay, of course, is real. And this is my thing about being a woman in this space. I think, not saying that you were doing this specifically, but sometimes we are asked about being women in sports as if it is like an obstacle or a hurdle.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  It's a superpower.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  And of course, there are elements of it that have made some things maybe a little more difficult. But I am not going to be a man. And most importantly, a man is never going to be me. A man is never going to be a woman. And I view my perspective and my intelligence and my experience and my warmth and my curiosity as traits that have in turn made me very, very good at the job. And so I am never trying to be less of me or less of a woman. I am trying to show up as this thing and dominate as this thing. I love the show Mad Men. It's one of my favorite shows.

• 32:11Emma Grede?

  Such a good show.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  And in Mad Men, Bobby once looks at Peggy and she's like, you're never going to get that corner office until you start treating Don like an equal. And you're never going to be a man, be a woman, because being a woman is a powerful business when it is done correctly.

• 32:27Emma Grede?

  And what happens so when you step into a negotiation, feeling the way that you feel, understanding your value, knowing what you bring, is there any glimmer of disappointment as you walk into those negotiations, knowing what is happening around you, understanding the value that you bring? I'm trying to understand if the two things are commensurate.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I would say I have been very fortunate and very blessed to work at a place like Amazon where they give you the thing that they feel you have earned. I think Amazon is the greatest job that I have ever had. They allow you to be yourself. They want to be new and innovative and fun. And it just really fits me. Even when I think about my brand partnerships and those things, just, I know you talk about money a lot on this. So just to put into perspective, when you think about my broadcast contract and my marketing contract, I don't spend any of my Amazon. That is how good my marketing contracts are. And so, and they are partners that pay me holistically. Right now, they

• 33:30Speaker 01

  also give to my foundation. We figure out how these things can look long term. So I always ask for what I want. And when you talk about the asking, for example, like back when I was at S and Y, I got the offer from Bleach Report and Turner to go over there and start my own podcast. And I had one more year left on my S and Y deal. So I'm like, I'm not, I'm going to miss this huge opportunity to go over to BR and TNT and have my own show and interview people because I have a year left on this deal. They're not going to let me out. But I went into Kurt Gatti Jr.'s office and I was like, I have loved my time at S and Y. If you say that I have to stay here, I will be the hardest

• 34:13Speaker 01

  worker for the rest of this year. But I also feel like I have earned a new position and I don't want to let it go. And he said, we will let you out of this contract. And that was such an important lesson to me that nothing is really concrete. You really can create your own destiny. I believe that.

• 34:33Emma Grede?

  Taylor, when did that happen? So, sorry, when did that happen for you? When did you start to feel the impetus that you could ask? Or are you just wired that way?

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, I was asking people to just come on to my show. You do not even understand how much I was firing off. Like, will you come on my show? Will you come on my show? But also, I think what's important context for me about how I think about life, but also how I think about myself is interviewing happened for me like as a workaround.

• 34:57Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  I was in Chicago, working at the Big Ten Network, loved the job, college sports grind, all the things. But I was a correspondent on the show. So on this 40 minute show, I maybe had like eight total minutes.

• 35:10Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Which I was young. You have to do these things. I'm not discounting that. I love everyone at the Big Ten Network. But I wanted to do more, but they were not giving me more. So I asked if I could just start a podcast so that I could do more. But that ended up being my thing. And it only happened because I didn't feel like I was being seen fully. And so when I realized that I was right about myself, I just went with that. So I will always ask because it has really never steered me wrong.

• 35:41Emma Grede?

  Yeah. Oh, I, I love that. Because again, I feel like some of us, and again, we all have stories that we tell ourselves. And, you know, I think that self-worth is something that you're either, you're wired that way and you have it, or it's something that you're, you're in constant, you know, you have to learn and you have to practice. But asking is really difficult, even when you have very high self-worth because you're so concerned about what does everybody else think? And what happens if I get a no? And it's a muscle that you train, like anything else, this ability to go out and put yourself on the line and say, you know what, I have an idea of what it is that I want to do, and I have a vision for myself, and therefore I'm just going to ask. But so seldomly do people do

• 36:26Emma Grede?

  that for themselves. Like, it's way more likely that you hear from someone that they're like, do you know what, I just thought I'd see out my contract and I'll go back and see if I can happen. And so it, to me, it's like such an incredible thing just to listen to how you kind of have walked that walk and how it's worked out for you, because it's an enormous part of your success that you just dared to put yourself out there.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And was okay with maybe being rejected. But I think rejection, of course, is, is hard. And I'm sure every time you speak to a student, you say, worst thing you can hear is no.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Well, and Emma started this, we started this conversation by being asked about dream jobs, right? And I, I often say, a dream job is fantastic. And a job that is in front of you and in hand is also incredibly important, right? And so, you know, like, I, I do think sometimes, especially young people, when you're, you're working towards these big dreams.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  With, without necessarily looking at the steps that are kind of right in front of you and putting, and that doesn't mean that you have to ask permission for everyone. That doesn't mean that there is a blueprint. But I do think that when, when I'm here, listening to you talk about asking for what you want without fear of rejection, that acceptance and that boldness is, is a piece of it. I've, you know, I, I started in newspapers. I was making pennies. And I think, what do you hear about journalism, right? When, when, how many times when you were coming up, what was the adage about money in journalism?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you won't make much of it.

• 37:56Emma Grede?

  You won't start off making much of it.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  You won't start off making, you might not, whatever.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  And I, I remember when I was leaving the New York Times and going to the Chicago Tribune, I was sitting with, at a Benihana, with Tim Frank from the NBA.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  And I remember looking at him and I said to him, will anything that I ever do in my life be considered impressive now that I've left the New York Times? This is the paper of record of the world, right? And he said to me, well, I don't know, impressive in whose eyes? Because it should be yours. And I was like, okay, now I have to figure that out. And the, the jobs that were in front of me at that point, and I've been so lucky in my career, were, the job that I ended up taking wasn't necessarily the job that made me the most money, right? I took the job because I thought it was going to build me the most skills.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  And that is, I recognize that comes from a place of privilege, that not everyone can make that decision, you know, and we're talking about, you know, a, a very, very small amount of money versus a smaller amount of money. But I took the job that I felt like would build me the skills to be able to have the bigger, more confident yes later. Because that's what the New York Times told me that I didn't have. It was the skills. So the business decision that I made was to go to another newspaper that I felt like was better training grounds for me than this more glitzy, bigger name place that I didn't see the foundation for the skills, because the skills are also money. Building skills is also money for later. And so I took the job that was going to give me those skills.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  And a couple of months later, ESPN called me. And I remember a mentor of mine, Woj, said to me, I felt a little bit guilty because I also had just, I'd gotten to the newspaper four months before the ESPN called me. And I thought, I'm going to be letting all of these people down. And I pushed so hard to get here and I asked for this title so that they, they would give me $2,000. You had to be a senior writer to bump up $2,000. And what business did I have being a senior writer at 23 years old at the time? And I remember Woj called me and he said, hey, I hear you're having this conversation. I told him, I'm, I'm not really sure I, I have, I, I, and this is, this is, I think women think about

• 40:17Speaker 02

  this more than men. I made this promise. What are people going to think about me? I, I, I gave my word and my word and honesty and integrity is everything. And he said to me, well, you know, and ESPN's offer was, was much more than I was making. It was, for me at the time, it felt like life changing, right?

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  And he said to me, this isn't charity work. It's still a job. And jobs mean getting paid. And I don't think that men think about that in the same way that women do. And once he said that to me, it felt like a permission.

• 40:47Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Right? And so now, when I go into negotiations, and it's not alone, right? Like, I have a team, my team of wonderful, wonderful folks. They look different than I do. They're on the golf courses that I'm not on. I think that's important for women to know, to have a team that thinks the way that an entire boardroom would think, to be your blind spots and to be able to look at the places that you're, and rooms that you're not in and say, oh, but I'm in this room and I, and speak well behind your back. But now, when I go into negotiations, ESPN has been fantastic and the best partner. And I think women need to negotiate from a place of knowing deeply your value and then work to be a bargain.

• 41:30Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And not feeling bad about it.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Never feeling bad.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Not apologizing.

• 41:42Emma Grede?

  I think a lot about what actually earns a place in your kitchen because most of us don't need more clutter. We need a few pieces that work hard, look good and make it easier to cook what we actually want to eat. That is what Our Place does really well. Their pieces are beautiful, but they're also designed to be useful every day. The Always Pan is a really good example. It's a ten-in-one pan, so it can replace several pieces of cookware without feeling like a compromise. I like that you can use it for the simple things you make all the time: eggs, vegetables, delicate proteins, and it's easy to clean up after. It also has their Thermokind ceramic non-stick coating, made without forever chemicals and third-party tested to meet global safety standards. The Wonder Oven Pro is another

• 42:26Emma Grede?

  piece that makes a lot of sense if you want your kitchen to feel more efficient. It's an eight-in-one countertop appliance with steam infusion technology, so vegetables and proteins can stay tender inside while still getting crisp on the outside. What I appreciate is that nothing feels overly complicated. The functionality is there, the design is there, and the pieces are beautiful enough to leave on the counter. Upgrade your kitchen with Our Place today. Visit fromourplace.com/aspire and use code ASPIRE for 10% off site-wide. That's F-R-O-M-O-U-R-P-L-A-C-E dot com slash A-S-P-I-R-E. And use code ASPIRE

• 43:07Emma Grede?

  for 10% off site-wide. With a 100-day trial, you can try it completely risk-free.

• 43:16Emma Grede?

  I want to talk to you about wealth a little bit because you are both extremely, first of all, you're really young, the two of you. You're in your early 30s, but you've got these big careers and big jobs and huge visibility. But you're building wealth and you're at a point in your career where that is allowing you to make decisions. And I wonder how it's impacted the risks that you take, the things that you say yes or no to, the opportunities that you choose. What does that look like versus, you know, three or five years ago even?

• 43:44Speaker 01

  I would definitely say thinking about it bigger and more long-term. I think when I first started, you know, you're really happy to just get the brand deal. Like, well, someone wants to pay me to post, you know? Yeah, but like, no, now I'm like, what, what is the future that we could have together as partners? So I really do try to think about things as a partnership and less of a one-off. It's also been really important to me to have equity. One of my favorite partnerships is I partnered with Rich Kleiman and Kevin Durant in Boardroom. And so I get to, of course, do my interviews, but I also have a real, like, stake in that company.

• 44:20Emma Grede?

  Rich is one of my oldest friends.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yes, I know. Yeah, Rich did the show.

• 44:23Emma Grede?

  Twenty-two years, me and Rich.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Rich is the best.

• 44:26Emma Grede?

  The best.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So really, always trying to think about things like that is not something that I started doing until a few years ago. And then television, business is all a team sport. So having a good agent, a good manager, all of those things is, plays a big role too.

• 44:42Emma Grede?

  You mentioned brand partnerships and, you know, also I just think about you two as so, you're so highly visible, right? So highly visible. And everybody has an opinion about what you're doing, what you're saying, who you are. But, you know, I think that in so much so, you guys have become the personalities. How does that reckon with the careers that you've chosen as journalists? And how are you thinking about that as something as you build your overall careers and your brands?

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Do you think of yourself as a brand? Do you wake up in the morning and say, I'm, I'm a brand?

• 45:18Speaker 01

  I would say I think about my life as a business. I don't necessarily know if I would say I think of myself as a brand. Yeah.

• 45:25Emma Grede?

  But being a public figure changes how you show up in your job, right?

• 45:29Speaker 02

  I agree. Yes, I think so. Because I think there is always, it's what you think, what the people you know think, and then this, the other entity, right? Like, I think that that is always sort of something that exists. I do think if I've walked into a room or a conversation thinking of myself as a brand, or thinking of myself as a brand before thinking about the work or thinking about who I am, then I've already taken a misstep. And so I think in an age where a lot of the words we use are, do you, what is your brand, right? That is something that I think is, is talked about a lot. What that really means is, as Emma says, where's the money coming from? Where, right? What's the

• 46:14Speaker 02

  money? But also, I think when, when you walk into a room and you've, you've already started to think of yourself as a brand versus thinking about the work, I think that that is where I don't feel aligned.

• 46:24Emma Grede?

  It feels like you both feel like it would be a slippery slope.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think of myself a little more as a personality or a broadcaster, just because the nature of what I'm doing a lot of the time. And I am not blind to the fact that so much of the interest is also who you are, you know? So when I show up on TV, I want to be myself because when you are good at the job, when you're also good at being yourself, that's the engine for all the other stuff. So you can never let the main thing not be the main thing because it's the excelling at that that gets you the brand deals, that gets you in that other room, that gets you the equity and all that sort of stuff. But I definitely understand that I have to kind of lead with this outward tailor if I want

• 47:12Speaker 01

  to do more. Just when I consider the personalities that I love so much, you feel like you know them.

• 47:20Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Not in a way that is like intrusive to who they are, but you get them. Like, you would feel like if you sat down with them at dinner, you would have some sort of connection because you've seen enough to understand. And I never want to feel far away from people. I definitely want to feel very accessible to those that look like me, to those that resonate with the things that I say. I never want to feel distant. So it is important to me to always be considering that, yes, you are, you know, Taylor Rooks on TV, as sports personality, as sports broadcaster, but that is fed by who you are.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  Right. You only have a split second to, with viewers, with a fan, to leave someone feeling like, I want to continue to invest my time. Because that's the currency that I'm asking people for. I'm asking people to spend their afternoons watching NBA Today. And I'm asking you to spend your evenings watching NBA Countdown. And I'm asking you to spend your summers watching Wimbledon.

• 48:19Emma Grede?

  You're really asking a lot of us.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  I'm asking a lot, right? And the time is your most valuable currency. So I'm asking you to continue to show up. And so what I, what I hope is to leave whatever brands I'm working with feeling is she puts in the work. Whatever people you meet feeling, that's, that's what I was hoping for. Because you only have a minute, two minutes, an hour on television to leave people feeling good. And that's what I want to be in the business of in sports. And right now, we're in a time in sports where that's not always the way people are leaving.

• 48:49Emma Grede?

  No doubt. No doubt.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Feeling good.

• 48:51Emma Grede?

  I wonder how, and this is a question for the two of you, how you stay grounded when other people are constantly projecting their ideas on you? How you look, how you've turned up, what you said, you know, commenting on things that might be private. Is that, I mean, I know it's something that you both deal with.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  I can honestly say it's never bothered me less at this point in my life, what people say about me. And at the same time, it's really important to have a group of people around you, a team, that will let you know the things that are important to hear. Because when I say that this doesn't bother me, that doesn't mean that there aren't sentiments in the world that will help me to be a better person and a better broadcaster. But I don't believe that anyone is meant to hear the level of feedback, just the sheer numbers of feedback that public figures do on any given day.

• 49:45Emma Grede?

  I mean, but how do you separate that useful feedback from what is just noise?

• 49:51Speaker 02

  The person that has your phone number to call you, that is the accessibility line, right? And if you don't have my phone number, there's a reason. And it's not because your feedback is invalid, but because the delivery might not be in a way that I can hear it. I have found that the comments that bother me the most when I do see them, and I have all the settings set so that I don't as much as possible. What I've found is the comments that bother me the most are sentiments I'm telling myself already. And I look around and say, oh, no, they noticed. My story that I'm telling myself or my, what I'm working on as a person that moves through the world, when you realize that you have the power

• 50:34Speaker 02

  to work on that and change that, and that is actually what's eating at you. That is a powerful thing that then you can take and hold. Because no longer does the power belong with the person who is telling you something that they think that you've never heard before. The power lies in you working on the piece of yourself that you want to improve. Because we're all that, that kind of work in, in progress.

• 50:57Emma Grede?

  Taylor, has there been a moment where the feedback or the criticism has really got to you?

• 51:02Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't want to say no, but... I think that I'm just used to it. Even though it is wrong, that this is how it is, I have always just understood this is a part of the show. Like, this is a part of being in this space. I have been told about myself, things I had never heard. I have been projected onto since I was in college. When I was in college, reporting on athletes at the University of Illinois, I had men who were forty years old, saying that these people only wanted to talk to me because they liked me, or because I liked them.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  This has been something that has been happening for so long, that it is not even really a thing that registers to me as much. I think that so many of the comments that we receive, the kind of person that has the thinking skills to believe that to be true, is not the kind of person that I'm even gonna waste a second thinking about. And so I think that I've always just had that, that perspective, and really known that it is just kind of what happens. I also grew up around people that played sports. I have just known that this is it. And so it doesn't really bother me.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  And I mean, I have gone through it, in terms of what people say about me. But, I don't know, I think so much that if you are really thinking about that all the time, you're gonna live in this just well of unhappiness. But it is important to say, how easy it is to become the projections that people put onto you. Because when I very first started, I didn't have this thought about myself. I was twenty-one years old, getting off air and going on Twitter at the time and saying, what did people say about me? Would you type in your name? Yeah, your ID is a stolen. You would type in your name, and you would say, did they like what I said on TV? Like, did they like this haircut? Did they like this interview question?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  But the feedback really that matters to me, obviously the people that I love and care about, my friends, but also my company. What do my bosses think about what I'm doing? What do the viewers, in terms of our partners, think about what I am doing? Because that is the one that actually impacts my life. So there are opinions that I care deeply about. But it's not the person that is commenting on YouTube, or sending me a tweet. But yeah, I mean, in terms of different times that I have been wrapped up in some internet rumor, I mean, it's countless, we'd be here all day.

• 53:48Emma Grede?

  I mean, we're just funny guys. We would literally be here all day. I mean, the internet is a funny thing, because it's so prevalent in your life and your professional work, right? Like, so much of, like, stories are created in that space, and you will wake up and report on a story that is generated from something that happened on the internet. I wonder how you even think about, like, protecting your credibility in a space where everybody thinks that they have the authority to have an opinion.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Trust is a daily deposit that is continuously earned by being accurate, by being honest, and by being fair. And I think of the standards that the New York Times taught. And I remember, I was writing a story, this was back in twenty seventeen, and I wrote a story, I was covering a woman named Linda Haywood, who was looking for a presidential pardon for her uncle, who had crossed state lines back in the day with a white woman, and was prosecuted for it. And posthumously, she wanted to clear her uncle's, he was a black man, she was a white woman, and posthumously, she wanted to clear her uncle's name, because that is not something

• 55:03Speaker 02

  out of Jim Crow that we recognize today, or should have back then. And I remember going and doing this, this interview with her. And she sat, and she gave me a description of the lunch that she was brought to school that day. And I wrote the story, and I printed in the New York Times, and she called me. And she was so upset with me, and I thought that I really did the story justice, there's no level of objectivity, but the care comes through in, in the way that it needed to. And she was so upset with me, because she said, um, Malika, I know we didn't have a lot, but you wrote that my mom only sent me to lunch with two pieces of toasted bread and an egg. And actually, she also sent me, remember I told you, with turkey and vegetables and a water as well.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  And it didn't even register to me. Something I'd been taking copious notes, I must have misheard, and I apologized profusely. And, in the New York Times, you issue a correction when you make some, when you make a mistake. And to this day, if you look up that story online, at the bottom, there's a correction that says, that an incomplete description of Ms. Haywood's lunch was provided in this initial story. And now there is the total lunch in the story.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Oh, that's beautiful.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  And why, and I was, I felt terrible, and I was so apologetic, but I made a mistake. And I owned it, and I corrected it, and I think about that a lot, as sort of, ESPN has very high journalistic standards of a lot of, of different pieces of, of our journalistic branches, and outside the lines, and all of these things. But I think about that a lot, in terms of trust. That is the way that you deposit trust. You have the phone lines open, and an athlete, or Ms. Haywood, or whoever it is, that daily deposit, and when it's something was incomplete, even when I didn't hear or see it, that's the correct.

• 56:55Emma Grede?

  You make it good, yeah. Nobody hands you trust, you have to create it every day.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  I think for me, a lot of the credibility comes from knowing that what I want is the real story. It's not that I am looking to make a headline, the headline comes from you telling me the truth. It is not that I want you to sit in the chair, and I get you into some mess. If you get into some mess, it's because of something that you said, right? But the credibility comes from the fact that you always get the call for the interview, you know? And so, the fact that I feel like I have established myself as somebody that people want to give the news to, that people want to talk to, that when Angel Reese is going to be traded, I get to break the news. Or when Necca is going to retire, she calls me and I get to do the interview.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Or when Draymond Green is going to do an All-Star alt-cast for TNT, that says he will only do it if I do it with him, which, by the way, ended up being my first time ever doing an actual broadcast for TNT All-Star, that's credibility. Or Michael B. Jordan does his legacy classic, and says, only if Taylor hosts. And so I just have so many different athletes and figures that have had something that meant something to them, and felt like I was the person to make it, like, mean something to everyone else. And that is like, it actually sometimes makes me emotional, because to trust somebody with who you are is like a really big thing.

• 58:26Emma Grede?

  It's a really big thing. Do you, I mean, and this is a question for both of you, but do you feel like there are specific athletes that actually have really helped, or that you would credit for really helping you in your career?

• 58:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, so many, yeah, yeah. I mean, outside of the ones I just said, like, say, Draymond, that was my first big broadcast for TNT, Michael B., not an athlete, but him saying that I should host that desk was the first time that I had ever hosted a desk. And now that is my main job. So it was doing that that even showed me that I was able to do it. I mean, Saquon Barkley, who is a really good friend of mine, but he has given me some of the biggest interviews, the different moments of his career, that has been really huge for me. I mentioned Angel, I mentioned Necca. Jason Tatum and Jalen Brunson are two people that I have known since they were fifteen years old.

• 59:18Emma Grede?

  Crazy.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  And anytime I call them and say, you're returning, will you talk to me? Or you won a championship, will you talk to me? They always say yes. And it's when you are at the center of these stories, and you are giving people this space, they always want to return. And like, that is a responsibility that I take very, very seriously. But I mean, so many men and women have been, nothing about my career was just me.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Amen.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Like, not one aspect of it was just me. So, yeah, I mean, I'm so thankful to everybody that has played the smallest role to the biggest role, because they have all meant so much.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  I mean, Giannis Antetokounmpo was the first NBA player that I covered, and it, at fir-, it was the big interviews that he trusted me with. And then it was, you know, the first time that I really had a disagreement over coverage with an athlete was also Giannis. And then rebuilding that, and him coming back, and that's what humanity is, like, that was a big, Giannis was, was huge in that. Victor Wembanyama, I did his first American televised interview, and almost everyone he's done since, except for one with the one who's sitting right next to me, right? Kaitlyn Clark, right?

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  She has been so trusting in a time that I think it has been very difficult for her to trust. And I really deeply appreciate that. And I, I get asked, at times, in this current media landscape, when everybody has a voice, and everybody has social media, why do athletes still want to do these interviews? And what I've come to hear from players, from Steph, from Victor, from Kaitlyn, from Serena Williams, which was such an awesome interview, to be able to do, by the way, it

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  was just sort of like, wow, I'm sitting with a living legend, is that it is so human to want to protect. Every person wants to protect themselves, and to just know that they're okay and be okay, and oftentimes, that means putting out the most curated version of okay to the world, because that's the safest thing to do. But I also have come to know and understand that when a person needs to be pushed, it takes someone with trust sitting across from you to do it. Oftentimes, it takes someone sitting across from you to challenge your ideals. And to have that trust, I think, is why players do have these conversations, because they know that there is a real truth that people can't get to on their own.

• 1:02:12Emma Grede?

  There are certain parts of your health where having real support makes all the difference. Not a one size fits all plan, not trying to figure it out alone, but access to a licensed provider, a care team, and options that are built around you. That is the model behind Weight Loss by Hers. It gives you access to personalized care, including FDA-approved GLP-1 medications like Wegovy. If prescribed, Wegovy is available as a pill and as a pen, so there are options depending on what's right for you. To get started, you complete an online consultation with a licensed provider who determines whether a prescription is appropriate. And the care doesn't stop there. Hers includes nutrition and lifestyle guidance as part of the plan, along with 24/7 messaging

• 1:02:57Emma Grede?

  with your care team, so support is there when you need it. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/aspire to access personalized, affordable care for weight loss, hair, menopause, and so much more. Individual results may vary and stopping treatment may result in weight gain. Weight Loss by Hers is not available in all 50 states. Wegovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovy clinical study information, and restrictions, visit forhers.com. The thing that slows people down during the day is not always the work itself, it's the constant stopping and starting. You're in an email and then you need context from a doc, you're reading a long thread,

• 1:03:41Emma Grede?

  then you have to remember what was decided in a meeting, you're about to send something and suddenly you're checking whether the number, the name, or the claim is actually right. That is why Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly, feels different from other AI tools. It works where you already work, so you don't have to open another tab, paste in context, or explain what you're looking at. It's right there when you need it, on the side of your browser, already up to speed. If you're reading a dense document or a long email thread, you can ask Go to pull out the key points without losing your place. If you're getting ready for a meeting, it can help you make sense of what matters. And before you send something important, it can help catch details that just don't add up. The promise is that it does not make your day more complicated.

• 1:04:26Emma Grede?

  It is your AI assistant, always on, working inside the tools and the sites that you already use. Try Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com.

• 1:04:42Emma Grede?

  I'm always really curious and interested what happens when you're covering a story or you're in the middle of a conversation where you hold like a deep opinion. You know, like I sit there and I listen to everything that's going on with the WNBA. And I wonder if you ever sit there and you're like, I have something else I really want to say here. Like, what happens then? What happens when like the emotions bubble up and you disagree strongly, but you know perhaps that's coming from a different place? Like, what do you do?

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  I ask myself, am I being fair to this person if I bring this up? Or is this in the name of fairness to bring this up?

• 1:05:18Emma Grede?

  Right? But what happens when there's something that you disagree with or something that you have a deeply held opinion about?

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, you for sure can say your opinion, but I also think there's a question to be asked that can help you understand your disagreement with the statement, if that makes sense. So if someone for some reason said, women should not be paid X thing, of course I disagree with that.

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  You can see the smoke already coming out of the air.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  But what you would do then there is challenge the statement, even sometimes if that is the, what do you mean by that? Or why should women not be paid? So then you're having more of a back and forth. I say to myself, is this my opinion or is this an opinion that should be explored in our conversation? You know? And so then I look to explore it within the conversation and less of a, less of an emotional outburst.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  And then that's the fairness piece, right? Because if you're exploring a question from a place of curiosity, the why? Why do you think that? And then someone explains further, oftentimes the point is made, filling in the information gap makes that point. Why don't you think that women should be paid? Well, I think that, and they, the, a person fills it in, right? With information that tells you a lot about who that person is, whether or not this opinion is something that's worth continuing to pull on that thread. If this is something that is something that can be helpful to the conversation, should, where should this be relegated to?

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  That question and that, that curiosity, I think, always leads to a better and more informed place.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's also why I will always tell like younger students when they're asking me something, you have to ask follow-ups.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Like, the gold of the interview is not in the first question that you ask.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Definitely not.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  It's when you heard what they said to you and then you ask them something else. I'm like, you gotta listen, you gotta ask that follow-up.

• 1:07:17Emma Grede?

  And I feel like I've heard you say a couple of times, Taylor, that you want people to feel something, you want to be able to emote those feelings. And I wonder why creating that type of connection is so important to you? Is it just about getting the, the, the great interview and having that moment? Or is there something else there too?

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  No, I mean, a lot of it is truly my journey as a person.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Understanding so deeply that who we are is because of who we've been and that we have all gone through things that are likely difficult for us to talk about. Sometimes it's really hard for people to be honest about who they are. Because maybe you feel a level of shame about it, maybe you don't fully understand it, maybe you think that you are alone in it. But like, I just know so innately that everybody understands. And so I just want people to feel understood. And I don't really want people to feel alone, I want people to feel like they are okay. A big part, of course, of my journey is therapy. I'm a big, big, big therapy advocate.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  And when I realized that how difficult it was for me to just say how I felt, it really did click to me that like, that is why I like doing this thing. I want people to feel like they can say how they feel. So of course it is a professional journey for me to do this, but it is really a personal one to make people feel seen, because I know what it is like to not feel seen. And I know what it is like to make your life work just because of a will that you had. I think that's one of the things that's so great about covering athletes is a lot of that story of hard work, sometimes it's also like a story of pain, you know? Of course, sometimes it's a story of family, sometimes it is a story of greatness, sometimes a story of a dream, but like, all of it is a story.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  And with athletes, so much of who they are truly is distilled down into these like clips. And that just isn't fair. And so they don't get to be seen. And everything that we ask them when they sit down is this self-fulfilling prophecy, because you're not asking them something new, you're just asking them something about that you just saw. And I think so many times in my life I have been misunderstood. And so I just, I don't want that to happen. And I think that it happens so often in what we do. I think that they feel it and I just don't want to be the person that, that does that. And I also think too, there is a true power in just asking a question.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  And the more that society has evolved, I don't think everyone even has that soft skill of just asking a question.

• 1:10:01Emma Grede?

  Well, we know, we know they don't.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 1:10:03Emma Grede?

  And asking the question. People find it impossible to hold conversation, let alone like, you know, the, as you guys do so well, listening and then bouncing back off of that, just people holding conversation. It's like a lost art. And so I think that what you both do so beautifully is hold that space that we get to know somebody beyond just their performance in that moment, beyond the accolades of that particular season. And that's what makes your job so gratifying for you, but as a, as a spectator, so amazing for us to watch, because we get the layers, we start to understand more, you understand somebody's behavior, you understand why they do what they do. And it all becomes just so much more interesting to watch and to understand.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Tayari Jones has this quote at the back of her book, An American Marriage, where she says, it's so good. But she has like almost a mini essay at the end of the book. And she says that too often we tell stories about problems and their people instead of people and their problems. And I think that's so much of like what we should be doing. We aren't starting with the bad thing. Like, we have to start with the person and talk about their lives and the things that happened to them, because that is how you get the relatability in these common threads. But when you start with this thing that you know is going to grab people, a lot of the time it isn't even the actual thing you should be talking about.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  So I'm always trying to get to whatever the root is of what actually makes a person who they are.

• 1:11:31Emma Grede?

  And I think that you do it so well. I wonder, for everybody listening to this, like what you would want young women specifically to understand about your industry?

• 1:11:42Emma Grede?

  Or I wonder what you think they might misunderstand about your industry, if you want me to put it a different way?

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Charles Barkley once said to me that if you go on TV, you can act like someone else and half of the world won't like you. You can go on TV and act like yourself and half the world won't like you, but the numbers are the same.

• 1:12:05Emma Grede?

  That's a great thing.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  And it is.

• 1:12:07Emma Grede?

  We all need a Charles in our lives.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  And it is a lot more, it is a lot more, I would say fulfilling and also peaceful life to go on there and be yourself, because the numbers are the same. And that's probably what I would say to women especially, because there is just so much information that I think young women are seeing, that they feel like they have to be someone else or something else. And a lot of the time, that thing that they're emulating is not actually what gets you what you want. And I think who you are has a lot higher probability of getting you what you want.

• 1:12:46Emma Grede?

  No doubt. Malika, what actually matters to Bill?

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  A career that's going to last. Having the audacity, right? I have the audacity to, to dream, to be, to do, to prepare, to fail, to try again, to execute, to ask, to ask again. I think that so oftentimes, this business can be distilled down to just the veneer that you see. And

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  the people that I aspire to

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  the most, right? Like the people that are, are the people that are, have the audacity every single time. Because this is a business that you're going to be told how tough it is over and over again. Tough businesses make tough people. And there are so many tough women that the world needs their voice. It's, it's required. It's not just a nice additive or an aside or a diversity high, it's, it's required. And so I do think that deeply knowing that and also knowing that it's not done by yourself and there is a whole network of women. It's really easy to think the way that women are talked about, talked about, especially in this business,

• 1:14:07Speaker 02

  that there isn't room or that someone may want to see you not be a person to take up that space. In my experience, that hasn't been true. When you reach out and ask, there's a lot that you get.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  You have to let your dreams change, you know? When I was young and knew I wanted to be a sports journalist, I always said, I'm gonna go work at ESPN. What I'm gonna do is go work at ESPN because that's what you do when you are in sports media. I've never worked at ESPN. I have never said, okay, I worked at the worldwide leader. I never got on any of those like lists, like thirty under thirty. I've been nominated for two Emmys and lost both. One of them was to Malika. So I think that you have to just understand that your validation comes from yourself and that just because your path doesn't look exactly like you think it was supposed to,

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  it doesn't mean that it's not a great path. And you can legitimize yourself. It doesn't come from these external things because for a long time I thought it did. And that's also something I would say to myself.

• 1:15:18Emma Grede?

  Malika, what do you still aspire to be or to become?

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  I think I am more ambitious than I have ever been. But that definition, I think of ambition has changed for me because it used to be, what is the next street corner to plant a flag on? What's the next thing to amass? What is the next sport to cover? What is the next? And I think it is a radical act for women in television to achieve longevity. It is so rare to see a woman sit in the same seat where the mundane becomes special in a way that so many of the greats have done. And so now I, I think a lot of my ambition lies in being

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  a really great host, but a really great teammate and being a better person than I was yesterday. Because I am still on the journey of liking myself. And I think a lot of the interviews that I do and the questions that I ask are questions that I also am looking for the answer myself. And I think that there's a common humanity in trying to figure that out together. And that doesn't mean that I don't continue to want to go win and I don't have a list of athletes that I'm really looking forward to having a chance to talk to. But I think what ambition is, has morphed from what else is there to what more can I be? And that's a question that I ask myself a lot.

• 1:16:44Emma Grede?

  Good answer.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love it.

• 1:16:46Emma Grede?

  Good answer.

• 1:16:47Speaker 02

  I'm excited for this.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  I mean, I aspire to be one of the best. I want to be one of the best that has ever done this work. I really do try to approach every single day with that belief and that idea. And I would say going off of what Malika said, something that has guided me throughout my career is I just want to do what I'm capable of. I don't want to see a box. I only want to see space. I used to feel like being a journalist or sports personality or whatever the case may be, looked like one thing. You can't go be in a music video because you do this thing. But I'm like, well, but I can be in a music video. They asked me. Or I can say, you know, I can't go, I can't go be in a movie like I do this thing.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  And it's like, well, no, you should go do all of the things that you are capable of doing. So I want to continue to grow and only see space and never see a box. And so I just want to be more of me. I just aspire to be all of the things that I'm supposed to be. And I don't want to limit myself because one thing that I have shown myself throughout my entire life is that whenever I say I'm going to do something, I do something much bigger. So I don't even want my dreams to be limits. I just want to do whatever I can do every single day.

• 1:18:09Emma Grede?

  It's so easy to see why the pair of you are so successful. And it's so impressive to see the support and the camaraderie that exists between you and how real that is. And so I give you so much kudos and so much credit. It's real love. I'm going to take you to some rapid fire. Okay, here we go. All right. First thing you do in the morning and last thing you do at night.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  The first thing that I do in the morning is go make myself a cup of coffee. The last thing I do at night is kiss my husband.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  First thing I do in the morning is cuddle with my dog and my husband. It's the best part of the morning. Last thing I do at night, take a magnesium.

• 1:18:50Emma Grede?

  Two kinds.

• 1:18:57Emma Grede?

  Okay, Taylor first this time. If you had to give this chapter in your life a title, what do we think it would be?

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  I was with somebody the other day who said, you've gotten to the point now where you get to tap into the resources to treat your life as grad school. So now I'm trying to treat my life as grad school, learning as much as I can. You have the connections to the people. Just ask, ask to sit with it. Just because, you know, you're sitting asking us these things doesn't mean that you don't get to go back to that. So that, that would be.

• 1:19:24Emma Grede?

  I love that.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd maybe say, look at the view. Take the things in, be proud of yourself, but also see from the view how big the world is and there's so much more for you. I'd say, look at the view.

• 1:19:39Emma Grede?

  What song do you have on repeat right now?

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  My husband teasing me because I don't listen to music. I have the volume turned all the way up and he's like, oh, you're really cranking it. And I was like, no, it's a podcast. I couldn't hear.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  I also listen to a lot of old music, but I mean.

• 1:19:52Emma Grede?

  Oh, I'm only old music.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  But honestly, ever since I watched Michael, I have been replaying like a lot, a lot of Michael Jackson songs. So I would say anything Michael.

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  That's a very good one. I am loving Olivia Dean.

• 1:20:07Emma Grede?

  Anyone who wants to be the man, they need, I just think she is. And she's such a joyful human. Like you just watch her and you're like, yes, I love you.

• 1:20:16Speaker 02

  She's incredible.

• 1:20:17Emma Grede?

  She's heaven. Okay. What is something you will never not spend money on?

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  I spend money to make my life more convenient. Like whatever that looks like, I will spend money on it. Also clothes, big on the clothes. Can't even lie about that. Food.

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  Experiences.

• 1:20:39Emma Grede?

  We can hang out.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, I was paying, girl.

• 1:20:42Emma Grede?

  I'm a convenience, clothes, experience girl too.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  I pay for whatever makes life easier.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  That's the point. Yeah. Anything that can gain me time.

• 1:20:52Emma Grede?

  Yes, this is it.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Emma Grede?

  That's the convenience.

• 1:20:54Speaker 02

  That is, that is a big one.

• 1:20:56Emma Grede?

  Help me.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  Travel. Horses.

• 1:21:01Emma Grede?

  That's expensive.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  She's so like majestic riding her horse.

• 1:21:04Emma Grede?

  When I see her on a horse, I'm like, why my mom put me in a horse?

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  But adults, having a hobby is such a beautiful important thing.

• 1:21:11Emma Grede?

  Yes, it is. Yes, it is. My husband just took up golf and so I'm really feeling like I'm, need a hobby. Yeah. I, you know, it's like, I don't know, time.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, golf, golf's a time consuming hobby.

• 1:21:24Emma Grede?

  And I don't want to be bad at my hobby. Do you know what I mean? Like I want a time to be bad. I was talking to somebody. Have the look and no swing, you know?

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  I'm looking to, to have a zero. I was like, you're looking to be a zero. What? Like this is just crazy.

• 1:21:36Emma Grede?

  That's some bullshit, that. All those athletes, like that's all they're on right now. Forget about it. Okay, last question, ladies. What is a book that changed your life?

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, so many.

• 1:21:48Emma Grede?

  Listen, with the quotes that have been coming out in this interview, I know you're both reading them. So give us a good one.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. I may have brought you both a copy.

• 1:22:00Emma Grede?

  I will take that.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  I love, I mean, I love a lot of Malcolm Gladwell books, but I would say Sapiens, but you all know I really, really.

• 1:22:11Emma Grede?

  Big goodness.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  It just like changed how I thought about humanity, humans, the world, our past. It was so mind blowing when he talks about this whole idea of like fragile ideas, like how human rights or money, these are just fragile things that since we all believe in them, that's why they exist. But like air or gravity, we could stop believing in both and they will remain.

• 1:22:36Emma Grede?

  And they will still exist.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  But it also just really reminds you that you actually need people. We have to all have signed up to be in this thing together because if we sign out of it, everything that we know will change. And a lot of times for the worst. So I always try to be optimistic, even when the world can feel a little dystopian because at minimum, we have all still agreed in some levels of the goodness of humanity. And so I think that, that really changed how I thought about things. And even when he was like, money, it's the greatest story they ever told.

• 1:23:12Speaker 02

  Because you all just said, hey.

• 1:23:14Emma Grede?

  Okay, this is, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. We'll just live and die by this.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  This will, I would say Sapiens. I would say Sapiens.

• 1:23:21Emma Grede?

  Thank you beyond.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:23:23Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  This was incredible. And I am so happy that we got to do this together. So. Thank you for the brilliant idea.

• 1:23:31Emma Grede?

  I'm so welcome.

• 1:23:35Emma Grede?

  Love you both. You guys are amazing.

• 1:23:40Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Our executive producers are Ashley McShan, Derek Brown and me. Executive producers from Odyssey are Asha Saluja and Leah Reese Dennis. Producer KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Phil Sweetech and Carlos Delgado. Social media by Olivia Holman, Catherine Bale.

• 1:24:22Emma Grede?

  Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Josefina Francis, Hillary Schaff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meekle, Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele, Sean Cherry and Lauren Viera. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemmagreed. Grede is spelled G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E with Emma Grede. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

• 1:24:59Speaker 05

  Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast. Personal finance can feel like a pop quiz you didn't study for. This podcast is your study guide. On NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast, you'll hear from trusted journalists who explain the why behind major financial decisions. You'll get research-backed insights and clear pros and cons, whether you're planning a big purchase or just want to grow your wealth. Make your next financial move with confidence. Follow NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast on your favorite podcast app.