The Conversation Skills That Change Your Career

Vanessa Van Edwards has spent nearly twenty years studying what makes some people easy to talk to. Her argument is that conversation is a skill rather than a personality, and that most of us are simply out of practice. She joins Emma to talk about how to prepare for the conversations that matter, what to say when you meet someone who could change your career, and how to handle feedback and disagreement without damaging the relationship. She also explains what happened early in her own career, when she lost a television deal during the small talk before the pitch and nobody ever told her that was why. In this episode: How to prepare for conversations that could change what happens nextThe three questions you should always be ready to answerWhy talking about how busy you are makes people think you're less competentHow to raise a problem with someone more senior than youWhat the way someone tells their own story reveals about themVanessa Van Edwards's new book, Conversation: How to Connect with Anyone & Make Every Interaction Count, is out now.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:10Emma Grede?

  Today's episode is about the skill underneath almost every opportunity we get: Conversation. Vanessa Van Edwards has spent nearly two decades studying human behaviour and her new book is called Conversation. Her argument is that having the best idea just isn't enough. People need to trust you, remember you and want to keep talking to you. This is a very practical episode. Vanessa breaks down how to move beyond small talk, develop a signature question, walk into a room with authority and speak to someone more powerful than you. She also analyses the way I communicate in real time. Listen especially for what she says about the first five words of any meeting and how the story you tell about yourself may be shaping what happens next. Let's get into it.

• 0:59Emma Grede?

  So I was just in Portland for an event at this iconic city block sized bookstore with colour coded rooms and over a million books. The place really feels like a city full of books and getting to do an event there made my trip to Portland feel so special. Then the team and I headed to Utah for another meeting and when I asked people for local recommendations, everyone we spoke to told us about this very popular soda shop. I finally tried one and I have to say, I was more than pleasantly surprised. We also stopped by another local bookstore and signed copies of my book, Start With Yourself and we got to browse there for a little while. Now, I love that feeling of a great bookstore where you can wander without a plan and then just suddenly lose yourself for an hour. I've been travelling so much for work lately and whenever I'm in a new city, I try to make

• 1:44Emma Grede?

  the most of it and find a few local pleasures along the way. If you have a busy travel schedule, I'm sure you also try to make the most of your time away and that is what is so smart about Airbnb. You can list your space while you're away and bring in extra income to put towards your next adventure. Someone visiting your city gets a much more local place to land while they find their own favourite spots. It's a practical way to make the most of the time that you're already away, rather than letting your home just sit empty. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host.

• 2:23Emma Grede?

  Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome to Aspire.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 2:26Emma Grede?

  I am really excited to have this conversation today. Now, your new book is called Conversations.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  No pressure.

• 2:32Emma Grede?

  Yeah, no pressure.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Better be good.

• 2:35Emma Grede?

  I'm fully, fully ready to hear what you think about me. But reading it made me think about how many, like how much in my life has been decided through a conversation. And that was like so insane to me, whether it is like pitching for a deal or being in some kind of a negotiation, trying to figure out exactly what it is that I'm worth. But like so many big pivotal decisions come out of conversations that you need to have. And we talk all the time about the skills that you need to, you know, succeed. But all of that comes from like the underlying thing of having a conversation. And what struck me in your book is that you said, you know, and why I think the book feels so timely. You said, "We are talking to each other all day and yet people right now report feeling

• 3:20Emma Grede?

  so disconnected from each other." So why do you think that we're using our conversation skills so much less when we need them more than ever?

• 3:29Speaker 01

  I think this is actually the myth that smart people have, like very smart, over-prepared folks. They're like, "It's all about my ideas. It's about my knowledge." And that's very important. So we go to school, we prep, we have the perfect pitch deck, we have the perfect script, we think of all the answers, the data, the research. But we forget that before we get to the presentation, we have that horrible thing called small talk. Small talk conversation is often overlooked, but actually it is a social lubricant. If you can have that little bit of banter, that little bit of bonding, small talk, even for two or three minutes before a Zoom call, it makes everything smoother. And the curse of smart people is they underestimate how important that small talk is. And so they don't realise, "Oh my gosh, why is it so awkward?" And they get stopped before they even get to their idea.

• 4:14Emma Grede?

  Yeah. You see that so much. It's funny. You say that bad conversation is expensive. What do you think it costs us the most?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  It costs us everything. It costs us opportunities. It costs us soulmates. It costs us business deals. It costs us investment. People like to work with people who are good conversationalists. You know why? It's easy. We have a lot of work to do, right? If we're going into a meeting or making a big decision, we have a lot of things going on. We have high cognitive load. If the conversation is also difficult and it's a little bit awkward and "What was your kid's name?" and "How are you? How's it going? How was the weekend? How's the weather?" It's already hard to communicate with you. And so therefore people are going to want to talk to you less. They're going to be less bonded to you. They're going to want to call you less often. They're going to dread the meeting with you. I think that this is the key. The reason why I wrote this book is because I want, when people see your

• 5:03Speaker 01

  name on their calendar, they're like, "Oh yeah, that's gonna be good. That's gonna be easy. That's gonna be fun."

• 5:08Emma Grede?

  Oh yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Before they even get to the idea. And in that way, I think that if we don't have good conversation, it's costing us our success. It is almost impossible to hit your goals, especially professionally, socially and romantically, if we cannot deeply connect with people quickly. And there is a difference between good conversation and bad conversation.

• 5:28Emma Grede?

  Oh yeah, there is. There is a big difference. So if someone is listening right now and they are bad at the art of conversation, what are the signs that you would tell them to notice first? Or what would they notice first?

• 5:39Speaker 01

  First of all, if this is you, this was me. I'm a recovering awkward person. I used to suck at conversation. Sometimes when I'm very, very awkward, I still do, but very rarely. First thing is, we have to learn that conversation is a skill. I think I used to think that you were born with it or you weren't, right? You either had the art of the gab or you didn't. No, conversation is a social skill. Not only is it a social skill, it is a combination of micro-social skills, meaning a really good conversationalist. And I spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists. What is it that makes someone just easy to talk to? Eloquent, elegant, they're funny, but also they listen well? In that, a master conversationalist, they're excellent at listening, but they're also excellent at storytelling. They're also excellent at reading the room. They know

• 6:23Speaker 01

  when to pivot. They're very good at transition. There's all these micro-skills. So what I would say is, if you're bad at conversation, first of all, don't worry. We can help. We can do it right now. We're gonna do it right now. We can do it an hour. We're gonna do it. 75 minutes, 90 minutes, we can do it. You know you're having bad conversation if you feel socially exhausted. And again, this is what I see. Most of my students are highly ambitious, very smart, talented folks, and they are so tired, not always only from the work. They are tired from what comes before the work. They are exhausted by that small talk on the way to their office. They're exhausted by, "Does my team actually feel connected?" They're like, "Another networking event. I just can't." They're exhausted because they're in the green room or they're backstage at a conference and they're like,

• 7:08Speaker 01

  "I don't know how to connect with this person, but I know I should." I think that's the critical thing, is you know you should. We just have to have a plan. We just have to learn it.

• 7:15Emma Grede?

  You just need to have a plan. And I love that you say, "Anyone can learn this stuff." Because I do think, certainly, like I think about it in my own company. Certain people will be like, "I'm so bad at that. I could never be at a conference. I never know how to initiate conversation. I never want to start the meeting." And when you say that it can be learned, I mean, it's so specific, the skills that you can learn. You've been listening to me for a few minutes and we had a little chat outside. What have you already noticed about the way that I communicate?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  So I, I listen to your interviews and you have a wonderfully natural and assertively curious style. When you're curious, you say it right away. And by the way, that is a sign of charismatic people. So if they have a question, they cannot wait to ask it. I get the sense that if you want to ask it, you're like, "I gotta ask it right, right now." Good conversationalists are additive. They are constantly adding by following up, by "Tell me more," by their own story, by non-verbal, "So you're a nodder. So you'll nod with me." When someone does a slow triple nod, the other person speaks 67% longer.

• 8:14Emma Grede?

  Isn't that so good? I just think it's so, I mean, there's so much to glean from everything that you are teaching all the time. And I love the combination of conversation and the body language piece. Because again, I think if that's not how you are naturally, it can be, you know, you make it into such a, it's such a hardship, right? And those things don't get easier. And that's why I really knew that I wanted to have you on the show. Because again, as somebody who used to be a certain way, you've actually taught yourself these skills. So what could I do in the next 60 minutes that would make this conversation better for you?

• 8:49Speaker 01

  What's your goal?

• 8:50Emma Grede?

  I want to make sure that everybody listening gets the benefit of your experience and that they can take away at least one thing that's going to make them a better conversationalist for the pure purpose of progression in their life, right? Because again, this is not just about work, career, businesses, to your point, just having better conversations with your spouse, with the people that you love, with your kids. I think that we all have been in a situation, you know, I always say to my children, "Eye contact", right?

• 9:19Speaker 01

  I think my awkwardness, and I share this, you know, a lot of the communication device is given by extroverts. And I am not an extrovert. And so extroverts can, can force themselves to be higher energy. They can force themselves to smile. Introverts and ambiverts, I'm an ambivert. I'm somewhere in between. We can't. We're not as good. Or we do it at great cost.

• 9:39Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Or we dial up and we pretend and we are depleting our, our internal energy. So if you have an introverted or ambiverted kid, so I have, I have, I have two ambiverts, leaning, one leaning introvert. I have a little, little cat-like daughter.

• 9:52Emma Grede?

  I have three introverts and a humongous extrovert.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Is it your youngest?

• 9:57Emma Grede?

  My youngest, of course. She's nuts.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Crazy child. I love birth mother child. Okay. Okay. So you're, okay. So it's really important for you as a mom, because you've learned, you have to do these skills to get ahead, right? You have to make eye contact. We want to make a handshake. I also will tell my kids sometimes, "Stand like you're wearing a cape." Right, because otherwise you say, "Stand up straight."

• 10:15Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Stand up straight. But if you're like, "What would you do if you were wearing a cape?" They immediately put their shoulders down, their head up. So, one, we're trying to give them goals. So you asked me, "How can I make this conversation better?" Which is lovely. And I'm like, "What's your goal for the conversation?" Because if your goal was to be for us to bond, we would have a totally different conversation, which would be lovely.

• 10:32Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  But we're here for you.

• 10:33Emma Grede?

  We're on a podcast.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Right, we're here for you.

• 10:34Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Right. So it's like, "Okay, no, it's to be as helpful as possible." What I would say is, whatever you are worrying about from a conversation perspective, ask it, because likely someone at home is as well. And think of it as an introvert, like your most introverted kid, what would they be asking when they're entering the workforce? When they would be trying to make their big deal, when they're trying to meet their soulmate? You know, I dedicated my book to my daughters, because I don't want them to ever have an awkward conversation. But I think that we're losing practice.

• 11:00Emma Grede?

  Oh, we are.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  All of us, not just littles, like all of us. We are talking to technology more than we're talking to each other. You know, we're talking to AI more than we're talking to each other in some cases.

• 11:09Emma Grede?

  We're leaving voice notes and audio notes instead of even like bothering to pick up the phone.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  And voice notes are not conversation.

• 11:16Emma Grede?

  No, they are not. They are entirely one-sided.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  And I love it.

• 11:19Emma Grede?

  You stop.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  I'm for both. I'm gonna send as many 10-minute voices again. But it's not real conversation, and it doesn't give you as much of that good chemistry, right? Like, when you're in good conversation, like, yes, it will get you ahead, it will get you opportunity. But when you're in a joyful conversation, you're like, "I feel heard, I feel seen, I feel chosen, I feel loved." You also feel that joy of like, "Ah, I'm connected." So it's also the joy. It's that, too.

• 11:43Emma Grede?

  That's so important. I mean, you've been studying this for decades. How linked is charisma to being a good conversationalist?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  So charisma, I define charisma based on some really fascinating research out of Princeton, which is charisma is a blend, a perfect blend of warmth and competence. Very highly charismatic people, what they're doing in conversation is they're signaling first warmth. "You can trust me, you can open up to me, I'm here for you without judgment." But also competence. "I'm gonna get it done, I'm gonna listen well, you can rely on me, I'm effective." And so charisma is, that blend is beautiful in conversation, but it's not essential. Meaning, you can have a very fun conversation with your Uber driver and not worry about having warmth and competence. So actually, I think that we can unlink them in the sense of, good conversation is down to a blueprint. And I literally think of conversation in this map.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Every good conversation has three levels, and it's your choice if you want to do all three levels. The first level in all basic conversation is called general traits. That's like when we first meet, we're going, "Okay, where are you from? What did you do? Married, got any kids?" Our brain has like a social hierarchy. We actually have to pass through that level first before we can get deeper. It's why we have that boring small talk.

• 12:57Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  The problem is, we tend to get trapped in that level.

• 12:59Emma Grede?

  That's what happens to people.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Right. So we're like, "Weather, how were those kids? How was this morning?"

• 13:05Emma Grede?

  You do, yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Okay, so my goal in most conversations is to get to level two, if I can. Level two is where things get more interesting, I think. It's where bonds connect, where bonds happen. So this is personal concerns. So personal concerns are motivations, core values, personality traits, goals. When you know this is about a person, you know what drives them, you know what worries them. I think really productive work conversations are when you know what the other person's working on, you know their goals, you know what drives them, but you also know what hangs them up, you know what's worrying them, what's keeping them back.

• 13:33Emma Grede?

  Give me an example of a level-two question.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Love it. Okay, so let's, can I do the bad and then the good?

• 13:38Emma Grede?

  Yes, please.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Okay, so here's the bad. So like, the bad is, you hop on a team call, and you really, you're like, "Okay, we have this few minutes of banter, this three minutes, I want to make it not a waste of time," where I would have wished I could check my email.

• 13:50Emma Grede?

  Because the banter is important at the top of a conversation, right?

• 13:52Speaker 01

  It is really important.

• 13:53Emma Grede?

  And I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say, "I think English people are better at it."

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Oh, I like it. Let's go.

• 13:58Emma Grede?

  I mean, we banter, like, that's what we do.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  And witty, witty. I mean, I can't.

• 14:03Emma Grede?

  The jokes don't always.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  You don't know, we'll get mad.

• 14:04Emma Grede?

  You know that first tad.

• 14:07Emma Grede?

  They're not always working.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Well, I hope that we can catch up. I hope that we can catch up.

• 14:13Emma Grede?

  There's the challenge.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  It's true, though. And also, your banter is really good. Okay, so a really bad way to do that would be, you get into a call, and you're trying. But you're like, "Um, so, how's it going?" "Oh, good, busy, busy, busy. How about you?" "Yeah, I'm busy too." "Okay, let's get started." Horrible, right? So what you did is you just went on social script. You weren't sure what to do, so you asked a very socially scripted autopilot question, "How's it going? What's going on? What's up?" And the brain is like, "Ooh, I can't say anything deep, so I'm gonna say nothing at all." A good version of that would be, "Oh, what's your biggest win this week?" Or, "Tell me something good." So jumping to "tell me something good."

• 14:50Emma Grede?

  Tell me something good.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Tell me something good, right?

• 14:52Emma Grede?

  Yeah, "How are you?" Like, "Tell me something good."

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yes. Or, "What's your biggest win?" Right?

• 14:57Emma Grede?

  They're both very positive.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  They're both very positive. Now, this is important, I think culturally on a team, is you have to have enough psychological safety, where if someone is good, they can tell you and they can brag about it. Like, "What's your biggest win this week?" "Well, tell me something good." And someone's like, "Oh, man, I just killed these numbers," or like, "My daughter did great in soccer," whatever. But if something is not good, it can be like, "Ugh, it's been a week, let me tell you." Right? So it also takes.

• 15:19Emma Grede?

  That you need in business, right? I never want to be in a meeting where always sharing is good news, and then you leave, and I get like this disastrous email, like, "Why don't you tell me?"

• 15:28Speaker 01

  And by the way, this is the myth that we have, as I think managers. Managers often think that conversation is counterproductive. No. Good conversation opens up productivity. If someone has rapport, they're able to say, "Listen, I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you something. Last week's report and the client, it did not go as we thought." Conversation actually opens people up, to be more honest. It actually creates more psychological safety. A team that is connected, that knows each other's, the level one and our basic goals, they're gonna be more open with collaboration, they're gonna share things more often, and they're also gonna enjoy their work more. So you have to have psychological safety. You ask for good, but there's always permission that if it's bad, we share it.

• 16:05Emma Grede?

  Right. So you've done the level one, and that's a must, because you're never gonna get to level two without it. So you have the frivolous conversation, duh-duh-duh, but you move straight into level two, and you try to do it with a positive question.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  If you can. Or, I wouldn't even say positive, I would say emotion.

• 16:20Emma Grede?

  Okay.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  So one thing I noticed when I was studying master conversationalists is what they are very good at is eliciting precise emotions. So they wouldn't say something like, "So, you know, you grew up around here, oh, and what's your favorite coffee shop around here?" Okay, favorite is all right, but what's the coziest coffee shop around here?

• 16:38Emma Grede?

  Ah, specificity.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Right. They're asking for a specific state. And that is jumping from level one to level two. Asking someone, "Oh, you know, you grew up in LA? What's your like favorite family restaurant that you'd always go with your family?" That is a far better question than, "What's your favorite restaurant around here?" So this is a hard ask, right? This is, we're putting more energy into conversation, this is not easy. But we're trying to elicit unique and specific emotions that you want associated with you.

• 17:05Emma Grede?

  With you. That's the point.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Right. So I love like exciting, I like winning, I'm very competitive, right? So I'm like, "What's your win? What's your big goal? What's your side hustle?" Right? Like, "What's your personal passion?" Those are my kinds of questions. But I believe, and this is level two, everyone should have a signature question. A signature question is a topic that you like to discuss with emotions you like to feel in conversation. You want to create a signature set of questions around your interests that you can bring up in those first few minutes of small talk, and then be known for it.

• 17:36Emma Grede?

  I go back to this question about charisma, because I think that people always think, "You've either got it, or you don't." And what you're saying is, if you learn to ask the right questions,

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:46Emma Grede?

  and you frame them in a way that actually is meaningful to you,

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:49Emma Grede?

  you're going to be more charismatic in the exchange.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Yes. Okay, actually, there's two sides of this. Let's get advanced. So the first side is asking emotion, specifically emotional-eliciting questions. That's great. And also asking for stories, not facts. Okay? So a mistake that people make in conversations are all about the facts. So, "How was the weekend? How many kids?" Or, "How long have you lived here?" Right? Like, very fact-based. The brain is dead on that, right? There's nothing to grip. Asking for stories, that's better. And even better, it's also sharing. So asking is part one, but sharing is part two, and this is the hard part.

• 18:24Emma Grede?

  You gotta give something.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  This is the hard part, is we also love really good stories. So sharing stories, not facts, when you are given a boring question. People are going to ask you, "How's it going?" They're going to ask you autopilot questions. You should be ready to break the script and give dopamine with your answer. And I know that this is really hard, and there's a very fine line, I think, between performing and being authentic. So these stories have to be real, or they have to be authentic. At the end of the day, you have to authentically like sharing them. But when someone asks you, "How's it going?", not answering, "Busy, but good", but instead giving them a story, like, "So ask me, how's it going?"

• 19:00Emma Grede?

  How's it going?

• 19:02Speaker 01

  "Book launch, we're 12 days out, and you'll never believe, but last week..." And don't you want to know?

• 19:08Emma Grede?

  Then we're in, then we're in.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  And don't you want to know what that is?

• 19:11Emma Grede?

  A hundred percent.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  What is it? What happened last week? Right. So I just, in very, it doesn't have to be long, right? And in fact, most answers should be between 15 and 30 seconds.

• 19:18Emma Grede?

  Oh, this is one part in your book that I really.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Okay, tell me.

• 19:22Emma Grede?

  Oh my goodness, I think I'm such a long talker. The 15, 20, I was like, "I'm like a minute and a half."

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Me too, me too, girl, me too, me too, me too.

• 19:28Emma Grede?

  Let's talk a little bit about that, because you said like, a good exchange really happens like between 15, 30 seconds, 15, 30 seconds, and I'm.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Okay, so this is, I know, I know, me too, me too. So this is the candor corpus, it's one of the largest databases on conversation. So let's go to the research, and let's go to nuance. So the research says 15 to 30 seconds is about average for turn-taking, right? So, "How's it going?" "Oh, I had book launch, and it's going crazy, you never believe what happened last week, so and so and so and so and so." They picked it for this. That could be 15, 30 seconds. 45 seconds is still okay, it's just getting to the longer side. If you are going over 45 seconds, it's gotta be juicy.

• 20:05Emma Grede?

  It's gonna be juicy. See, I'm full of juice, that's what I am.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 20:08Emma Grede?

  I have tea.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  And you know what's not juicy? My hot take? Talking about how busy you are.

• 20:14Emma Grede?

  It's the least juicy.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  It's the least juicy, and I hear it the most often with highly successful people. And by the way, I actually went to the research on this, okay? The research says that talking about how busy you are makes people think you are less competent, which is very, very hard for successful people to swallow, because we think talking about how busy we are actually makes us sound more successful, more important. No. When we hear about how stressful and busy someone is, we actually think they're less competent. So the one thing that's not juicy is giving someone your schedule. You don't have to be positive all the time. I call this conversational confetti. It's a silly way to think about this. If you're about to say something juicy, tell me first. So if something crazy happened to you last week, don't just dive into it.

• 20:59Emma Grede?

  No, you're gonna be like, "It's a crazy thing happened." And then you're hooked, you're in.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Now, it has to be actually crazy. Right? You can't be like, "The craziest thing happened, I got coffee." No, that's not crazy. So like, we also have to think meta a little bit in like, preparing, "Wow, that was so weird, that was embarrassing, or that was crazy," and then saying it. And that conversational confetti, you're competing with the feed. Right? Like, I hate to say it, but we are directly competing against the, mm, the contagion of social media. And so we also have to be very emotionally contagious.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Do you ever wish you could ask nosey questions about people's money?

• 21:39Speaker 03

  I have $729.71 in my bank account.

• 21:43Speaker 04

  We bought, you know, a $1.3 million house on a $350,000 income.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  On the podcast, What We Spend, we ask those questions. It's a show about money and all the feelings that come with spending it.

• 21:54Speaker 05

  I want to be the kind of person who can just take care of the people in my life.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Listen to What We Spend, an Odyssey original, available now wherever you get your podcasts.

• 22:09Emma Grede?

  It's interesting because you did learn how bad conversation can actually cost you quite a lot in your career. Will you just talk about that? Because I know you lost out on a huge opportunity. And I do think it's important for people to contextualize like how much being a good conversationalist can be so advantageous. But equally, if it's not something you work on, it can cost you dearly.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  And it will cost you when you least expect it.

• 22:32Emma Grede?

  Right, even worse.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  So, so I had a video go viral. I started getting following on Instagram wasn't around back then. So it was, it was just YouTube and Facebook. I started getting viral and I got offered a television deal. And we were, had an agent, a fancy agent, and we were talking to producers. We had this whole thing set up. We had a really, really cool show idea based on what I was doing. And they say, you know, the big execs at the studio, I will not mention the studio, want to meet you just to, you know, just to get a little, before we sign the deal. And I was really prepared for the pitch.

• 23:04Emma Grede?

  Of course.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Right, I was like, I had a slide deck with all the stuff for the show and my demographics and how we were going to hit. And like, this is a huge audience. I was ready for that. What I was not ready for was that banter before the meeting started. And so I get there and I was greeted by a sea of execs, right? And they're like, oh, we just want to get to know you. I was like, huh, because I was ready for the pitch, but I wasn't ready to be known. And I did not know how to connect quickly. Quickly, I keep adding because, yeah, I can do it on a date. I could do it along dinner with friends, but quickly with investors.

• 23:38Emma Grede?

  When it matters.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  When it really matters. And answering questions in an exciting but interesting way that's actually real and authentic is very hard. And I was underprepared. So we start the small talk and I, I know it's going badly.

• 23:49Emma Grede?

  Oh, that's.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  I know it's going badly. I could, they're like, you know, so tell us, tell us about you.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  By the way, everyone watching, please be prepared for three questions. You should know how to answer, what's your story? When someone asks you, what's your story? Tell me about you. Be ready, because you're going to be asked that question when you are not ready for it.

• 24:08Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  You're going to be asked that question by someone who is very quickly, they're trying to gauge who are you? Be ready for it. Second question, what do you do?

• 24:17Speaker 01

  It's, it's a sneaker and we answer it apologetically. So many people, I hear them say, oh, I'm just a little. Or they answer it like a social script or they read their resume.

• 24:26Emma Grede?

  More specifically, women answer it in a negative way, do you think, or am I wrong?

• 24:30Speaker 01

  I think more specifically.

• 24:31Emma Grede?

  It is true.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  In an apologetic way, or in a way that they don't want to brag. And so they undersell.

• 24:36Emma Grede?

  They undersell themselves.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Right, and they give it away with vocal power. So I often will hear women ask what they do, not say what they do. So they go up at the end of their sentence. So instead of saying, they're asking. Someone will say, what do you do? Oh, I'm, I'm just in marketing. Do you hear me ask?

• 24:55Emma Grede?

  Oh, I heard it.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  So.

• 24:56Emma Grede?

  Loud and clear.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  This is really important.

• 24:58Emma Grede?

  It's really important.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  The way you say something matters just as much as what you say.

• 25:03Emma Grede?

  A million percent, but go back to those three questions. If you want everyone to know, what's your story?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  So what's your story? Be ready for that answer. Be ready for a really tight 45 second answer to itself, story with a little bit of emotion. What do you do? Say it, don't ask it. And make sure you're giving them a hook. Be easy to talk to. If you say, I'm just in marketing, you just put the onus on them.

• 25:22Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Now they're like, uh, what kind of marketing? Right, like, give us a little, a little bit of story, why you love it, why you hate it, why it's embarrassing.

• 25:28Emma Grede?

  What you're working on, like something that's going to bring you, you know, the next amazing project.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Answer with your goal. Right, it levels up to level two if you answer with a goal.

• 25:37Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Right, and the, the third one is the catchall for what's up? And this is the ever-changing answer. So I want you to be living a life that is so fun and so interesting and so fulfilling that that answer is always different and always authentic and always easy. But that means watching things that other people aren't watching. That means getting off your feed. That means learning new things. That means trying new things. That means reading books that maybe are super weird or super out there.

• 26:07Emma Grede?

  Being interested and interesting.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  I think the only way to be interesting is to live an interesting life.

• 26:13Emma Grede?

  Fact, I mean, it's like, to me, it's so simple. And even as you say it, it's like, I'm like, yeah.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  And I say that because I, I say that, yes, I want you to be conversationally charismatic. Like, I know that if you're living in an interesting life, that you're going to be interesting. But also I want that for you too. Right, if you're like, I need more to talk about in my life. If you're like, wow, I am dreading conversation. I find it really hard to come up with signature questions. And as I don't have any signature questions, if we say, okay, how could I live a life that's interesting to talk about? There's my, really, my secret goal there is, is to give you some more joy, is to give you some more meaning. Because I think that if you have meaning in your life of people or things that you're doing or goals that you have, it's going to come into your conversation. And that's only going to benefit your conversation and yourself.

• 26:55Emma Grede?

  How much of that is coming from how we're living right now at this moment in time? Right, because if you do a lot of your work from home and everyone knows what I'm going to say, so like, fine, my audience understands. But if you do a lot of your work from home or a lot of your work to a screen? And you have your food delivered to your house? And therefore, like, your human interactions are reasonably limited. Like, what is that doing to our ability to have interesting conversations and then interesting lives?

• 27:23Speaker 01

  It's 80% of the reason why we are feeling burnt out. We are feeling bored. We are feeling overwhelmed because the chemicals that we get from human to human connection cannot be replicated to other places.

• 27:35Emma Grede?

  No.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  We, we don't feel loved by technology. We need to feel loved. We don't feel understood by technology. AI can tell you, good job, I hear you. But AI is not going to give you the deep feeling of feeling understood by another person. It does not give you meaning. And so I think we have to fight this. And this is my big push is we are focused so much on our bodies. And that's wonderful. Fitness and our health and our protocols, and I love all of it, but we have to go to the social gym. We are also getting conversationally flabby. We are getting socially weak. And we have to start thinking about conversation like reps.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  The first couple of times you do a push up is really hard. It hurts and it sucks, but the more you do it, the stronger you get. Conversation is, it could be a little awkward. Right, some of the tips in my book, they are not meant to make you feel comfortable. Right, some of them are a little bit hard. They take a little bit, they take courage, but it's the same thing as going to the gym.

• 28:37Emma Grede?

  I also want you to just speak to the success piece of this all. Because at the top of this, and, and as I said to you, when I was reading your book, I was like, wow, like, the biggest moments and the biggest leaps that I've taken in my career have absolutely come out of like, an important conversation. Pitching a business, asking for people to invest in you, being able to move yourself up in the world. Comes from you advocating for yourself, having great conversations, negotiating on your own behalf. And you do that through talking. There is no other way.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  I have a question for you. So you, you have built this incredible empire. How many of your relationships with people happened outside the boardroom? Like, were you happy houring with them? Were you going to parties with them? Like, I wanted to ask you, like, how much of it was like casually social?

• 29:25Emma Grede?

  I would say quite a lot is casually social, but also that's my business, right? So in the fashion business, you'll be at a show, you'll be at an after show party, you'll go and see a presentation. Part of our work is being inspired. So you'll go to a gallery with someone, you'll go to a concert. Right?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  That's not different.

• 29:42Emma Grede?

  It's outside of the boardroom.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  But it's not. But it's not.

• 29:46Emma Grede?

  Interesting.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Everyone's business is social.

• 29:48Emma Grede?

  I love that you say that.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  All of our business is that. You don't have a unique business. And all of those conversations that you had at a party, networking, waiting for the show to start, those were all going towards your investment. The really successful people, they are making connections out of the office just as much as in the office. They are making conversations at lunch, picking up their food, when they're walking in the building, in the elevator. Like, I also think, what is a good elevator conversation? Right, we talk about elevator pitch. No, this, that is long ago, right? Like, that is like old school. No, how, what if you're in the, in the elevator with someone you kind of, kind of see occasionally or your boss? What are you saying? Don't ask how's it going? Right, if you ask how's it going, they will not remember you.

• 30:32Emma Grede?

  What do you ask?

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Well, this is, what's your goal? Right, what's your goal? So if you're in the, in an elevator with your boss, you have to ask yourself, what's the goal? Is the goal to get to know them more? Asking.

• 30:42Emma Grede?

  The goal is for them to know me more.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 30:45Emma Grede?

  But that's what, that's what you want. It's like, if somebody's in the elevator with me, they need me to remember who they are.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, I have a different perspective.

• 30:52Emma Grede?

  Oh, go on, tell me.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Okay. Okay, I think that there.

• 30:55Emma Grede?

  This is so good.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  I think that there are two different kinds of VIPs. And I would consider you a VIP. I would consider any manager as a VIP. That the title of this chapter is how to talk to your boss or a celebrity or a VIP. Okay, there are two types. And I've known this because I've interacted with a lot of VIPs and celebrities. And you have two. Tell me if you agree with me. I think there are two types. One are the entertainers. Entertainers, they love to share, right? They want to tell you the story, they want to make you laugh. They love hearing other people laugh. They want to share something where you're like, oh, wow, no way. Right, they're the sharers. They love getting really good questions and having very loud listeners. A loud listener is a loud laugher. They nod a lot. They're the ones who are going, oh, no way. Wow. Uh huh, right, eyebrow raises, right? Like, they're loud listeners.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  The other type, I think this is actually most VIPs, bosses and celebrities are appreciators. This is actually me. I would be so upset if in an elevator, you asked me a hard question.

• 31:50Emma Grede?

  Really?

• 31:50Speaker 01

  I would be like, don't want to talk to her again.

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Kind of not really, kind of not really. Because you know why? I am an appreciator.

• 31:58Emma Grede?

  Interesting.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  I just wanna listen.

• 31:59Emma Grede?

  Yeah, fair.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  I know it's weird because I'm on a podcast, but like, I just wanna hear your stories. So appreciators are the types of VIPs where they wanna be entertained. They want you to tell them, you to tell, what's the most interesting thing that happened to you this weekend? What's the funny thing? What's the thing you learned about our client? You're not gonna believe this customer review. You're not gonna believe, like, when my team is like, oh, my gosh, so last week, one of our students emailed in and she had this great success story. You just made my morning. But if they were like, what's your greatest success for the week? No.

• 32:27Emma Grede?

  You don't want that.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  I don't want it because I wanna listen. So I actually think it is different. And this is a nuance of conversation, right? Like, there's a little bit of nuance here. What is your goal? Is your goal to bond and connect? Is your goal to learn about them? Is your goal to share about you? So I think you have to figure out.

• 32:42Emma Grede?

  You really have to figure out.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Which one are they?

• 32:44Emma Grede?

  I'm thinking about this as like, my single biggest mistake that I've ever made in conversation. It's a good one.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Tell me.

• 32:51Emma Grede?

  I am obsessed.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  You said conversational confetti.

• 32:54Emma Grede?

  Oh, I did?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Wait, this is the single biggest mistake I've ever made in conversation? What is it? I can't leave, what is it?

• 33:03Emma Grede?

  It was Oprah Winfrey. But you have to understand what Oprah is for me. Like, the queen, the king, the moon, the sun, the stars. Like, oh, it's all. Two of them. So, and here's the thing. I invited the conversation. So I'm in a, I'm in a party. I'm at like some, you know, Diamond Fustenberg's, Oka party.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Not, not to be overlooked. A party is important conversation, not to be overlooked.

• 33:23Emma Grede?

  Right, so I'm there and I'm feeling myself, I'm good. And Oprah walks past me because she doesn't know me and Gail kind of follows and I know Gail.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  I know Gail. Does Oprah smell good? Gail's a delight.

• 33:34Emma Grede?

  So I say, Gail, you've got to introduce me to Oprah. But Oprah's up the road now, right? And so Gail goes, Oprah!

• 33:44Emma Grede?

  I have sunglasses on. She gets to me in like 30 seconds and me, I, conversational confedia, go bye.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 33:53Emma Grede?

  And, and I have sunglasses on and I don't take the sunglasses.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 33:57Emma Grede?

  And I like, kinda like, maybe cry a little bit.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:02Emma Grede?

  Just because, and she's holding my hand, stroking my hand, like, poor girl. And it was my biggest choke. So Vanessa Van Edwards of excellence, what should I have done?

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 34:15Emma Grede?

  What should people do when they meet the person of their dreams? Or indeed, if you're meeting a boss or somebody that, you know, you really admire and you wanna make a great first impression, what should those people do?

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so one, it's okay. It's okay. I bet you she's used to it.

• 34:30Emma Grede?

  It wasn't okay.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  But I bet you she's used to it.

• 34:33Emma Grede?

  I made up for it.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  She was petting you, right?

• 34:34Emma Grede?

  I made up for it, sis.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  She was probably giving you oxytocin. Right, it's okay.

• 34:38Emma Grede?

  She's like, stop crying on me. And take your sunglasses off.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Okay, so I think the first thing is the mistake people make is they compliment. And I, I, people are gonna, not like this.

• 34:51Emma Grede?

  I love you.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't like it. No, I love you. No, I love you. You're my greatest hero. I've been waiting.

• 34:58Emma Grede?

  Oh, my God, I love you so much. I've been watching you since I was a kid. You're so good.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  My favorite thing you ever did was.

• 35:03Emma Grede?

  Okay, so don't do that.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Don't do that. And I, I love an authentic compliment, but I think, especially for a VIP, it, it's hard to respond to that. It actually puts a lot of conversation weight on them, right? We're trying to be easy to talk to, okay? So one is I would actually wait on the compliment. And you have, you have two choices. And I would, I have one that I prefer, but I'm gonna give you two choices because it depends if they're entertainer or appreciator. Like, I don't know Oprah. Do you know if Oprah's an entertainer or appreciator? She like to listen or she like to talk?

• 35:28Emma Grede?

  I think she probably is an entertainer.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Okay, so for her.

• 35:31Emma Grede?

  I think she can do both because she's Oprah, but I would like.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  She can do whatever she wants. She's a goddess. Like, that's her category, right? Okay, so, so then I would pick a context cue. So context cues are things that you can see in conversation. And research shows that when you can both see the same thing or smell the same thing or taste the same thing, it creates a shared reality and it actually lowers the psychological pressure. So if I am not sure what to say and I don't wanna like inauthentically compliment, I will create some kind of context cues that's highly specific. So I might say, oh, my gosh, what's your favorite food here? Or how's the wine? Like, a very, just like, we're in this together. It's literally saying like, we're in this shared context. It takes on the pressure of like, Oprah, what's your greatest memory? Or the mistake of like, what's your one piece of career advice for me? Oh, gosh, so much pressure.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  So like, take on the pressure, pick a context cue. And then if you can, share a story that's going to delight and entertain them. But like, I think that like, sharing something about you or about something you've seen or something you've learned or something you've heard, everyone likes a good story.

• 36:30Emma Grede?

  Everyone likes a story.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  So do it, do it over. If I was, if I.

• 36:35Emma Grede?

  I actually did it over last night.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  You did it, Tommy.

• 36:38Emma Grede?

  Yeah, because, because I saw her. I'm just gonna tell you the story.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  You're hanging out with Oprah like last night?

• 36:42Emma Grede?

  No, no, no, I just saw her. So I, and I knew. No, what happened because I could see her in front of me. So we're at the Lucas Museum opening and I could see her in front of me. So I was like, think, think, think, think, think. And then we, you know, she disappears. Then she comes towards me.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  The light, huh?

• 36:58Emma Grede?

  That's what I hear, literally. But it's like, I've got time, time, time. And again, you know, she's a hand holder.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Wait, what are you thinking?

• 37:03Emma Grede?

  Don't fuck it up again. And thank God you don't have sunglasses on. That's what I was thinking.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Okay, but were you preparing a conversation starter in your head?

• 37:09Emma Grede?

  Of course, absolutely.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  What were they?

• 37:10Emma Grede?

  I said, what a joy to be here. Can you believe what we're seeing? Because we're in this like museum space, you know? And I said, there is nowhere like this in LA. This, what a gift to the city. And she said, what a gift have you seen? Da, da, da, da. And I said, no, but did you see the Frida Kahlo? Da, da, da. And she said, I can't wait to see you in November. And I said, oh, my God, bye, high five. And I walked off and I was like, yeah. That was it.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  You did it. You did a context cue. So natural, that's why I know you're a natural conversationalist. That was a natural cue.

• 37:42Emma Grede?

  Sweater weather is finally here and I do think there's a reason people get so excited about it. It's one of the easiest moments in the year to get dressed because a great sweater does so much of the work for you. Now, this season at Macy's, they have the staples that make a fall wardrobe feel cozy but still elevated. Cashmere is the place I would start. It's soft, lightweight, warm and timeless, which is why it rarely goes out of style. Macy's Cashmere is designed in-house and thoughtfully made with two ply yarn construction. So it's built to last and it comes at great value. If you want something with a little more personality, this is the great season for a statement sweater. Farah is especially strong right now and it gives a simple outfit that classic fall feeling without trying too hard.

• 38:27Emma Grede?

  The styling is what makes it feel current. You can wear a great sweater with baggy denim and slouchy boots or make it feel a little more dressed up with a silk skirt or a trench. The point is to mix the softness of the knit with something that gives the look a bit more shape. Head to your nearest Macy's store or go to macy's.com to shop online.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher.

• 38:48Speaker 06

  And I'm Scott Galloway.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  And we wanna tell you about Pivot, our twice weekly podcast.

• 38:52Speaker 06

  That's right, Kara. What a thrill. It's a chance for us to break down all the big things happening in tech, business and politics.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Yes, and I keep you in check so people can make it through each episode, whether it's digging into constant changes in the world of AI and social media or trying to keep up with whatever the fuck Elon is doing. We're here to give you our take on all of that.

• 39:10Speaker 06

  Every Tuesday and Friday morning, we drop a new episode about some of the major stories of the moment.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  And Scott is a prediction machine, gazing into his crystal ball to tell you about where it's all heading.

• 39:21Speaker 06

  That's right.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  So if that sounds like a good time for you, especially Mr. That's Right, you can follow us on your favorite podcast app to get new episodes every week.

• 39:38Emma Grede?

  What do you do? I mean, because I feel like so many people, they're, they're good, they get into the meeting and they've done the small talk thing, that, that kind of works out for them. So how do you redirect a meeting that's going nowhere without embarrassing the person that's actually leading?

• 39:52Speaker 01

  Okay, so I think it's really good to have phrases in your back pocket, like planning phrases. So first of all, there's a couple of things that can come up in meetings. One, you don't have time for small talk. So this is the first transition. Like, people are in small talk. You wanna skip small talk, you can actually say, I trust all is well with you. Trust all is good with you. So you can actually skip small talk with a positive statement. If you're in the meeting and you need a transition, what you wanna do here is address the emotion and then give the next step. You have full permission to acknowledge the emotion, move it on. In fact, we see that as high competence. So remember how we talked at the very beginning about charisma is warmth and competence?

• 40:25Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  This is where that comes in. Okay, you're in a meeting. You need to transition off something bad, off something good. You need to transition into metrics and productivity. Warmth and competence. Warmth, gratitude, thank you. That was great. That was productive. That was relieving or whatever. And now competence. We have a plan. Let's go to this on the agenda. Let's go next. You wanna pair that formula all the time.

• 40:45Emma Grede?

  All the time.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  In conversation, also even in your slides, right? So like, I'm doing a lot of presenting. I'm doing a lot of pitching. That's most of my work. I will even have a warm slide and a competent slide. Warm transition, thank you for that. And then competent. So you can always be pairing warmth and competence together.

• 41:00Emma Grede?

  So let's make this a little bit about work because if you walk into a meeting where nobody knows you, what are people deciding about you before you're, like, before you've even made a point, before you've opened your mouth?

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Yes, so they are deciding first warmth. Warmth actually comes first. Warmth signals are important in the first few seconds. So when we talk about impressions, really, we only have a first few, the first few seconds. Some people even say it's less than a second. Meaning, you have to very quickly signal openness. So there's a couple of nonverbal ways that we do this. So I like to be hands first. So on every Zoom call, on every meeting, even when we just met, I was like, oh, my gosh, so good to see you. And then we went in for, I think we hugged, right? So hands first. So the moment you walk into a room, the moment you hop on video, signal your palm. I love an open palm. It's kind of like the window to the soul. Second is you wanna make eye contact, especially in those first few seconds. It produces oxytocin. So oxytocin is the chemical of connection. Does a lot of things in our body, but for our personal purposes. And then if you can do some kind of physical greeting, that's always good.

• 41:54Speaker 01

  A handshake, cheek kiss, high five, fist bump, hug, all good. And then your opening line, specifically your first five words. I want us to be purposeful with our first five words. So often, we throw these away. Or we ask them.

• 42:10Emma Grede?

  We throw them away.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  So happy to be here? Do I look happy to be here? So we either start on autopilot, which is off. So we'll say, hey, everyone, so happy to be here. But we don't look happy to be here. That immediately signals inauthenticity. So if you're not actually happy to be there, don't say it. I would rather you be radically honest than pretend that you're happy to be there. So if you're actually happy to be there, make it sound like you're happy to be there. Second, your first five words should be purposeful. It should not be apologizing. It should not be hedging. It should not be qualifying. And you have to state them, not ask them. We briefly talked about earlier, asking, especially your name. If someone, you walk into a meeting, you say, hi, my name is Vanessa.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  In our brain, when we hear an accidental question inflection used on a statement, it reminds us of liars. So liars accidentally use a question inflection because they're asking, "Do you believe me?" So this is why we get that spidey sense around people who are like, "What?" It's because our brain hears the question inflection. So liars will often go, "No," because they're actually asking, "Do you believe me?" Like if I ask my daughter, "Did you take that cookie?" And she goes, "No." Yeah, she did, right? So we know this instinctively. So if you're asking your own name, you're asking the point of the meeting, you're asking your greeting.

• 43:26Emma Grede?

  You've lost your authority.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  You've lost your competence, right? You're actually putting their brain into more of a suspicious place rather than an open place. So first signaling warmth, then signaling competence, and making those first few words purposeful. I also think this cuts down awkwardness. Like if I'm about to walk into a meeting, usually I used to be thinking about like my inbox, my tasks, the pitch. No, no, just think about your first five words. I like gratitude. "Oh, thanks so much for making this work. Thanks so much for having me." I'm always grateful, right? I don't, I don't walk into rooms I'm not grateful for.

• 44:02Emma Grede?

  So you're grateful to be there?

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Right? So like, that's a, that's a bar for me is like, if I cannot be grateful for this meeting or meeting this person, I shouldn't be doing it. So I always know that gratitude's authentic. That doesn't always work for folks. So if you're grateful, right? If you want to be productive, that's also good. Excited for this productive meeting, excited to get this done, excited to know you, right? So I think you can pick the words that you want to showcase.

• 44:23Emma Grede?

  I love that. First five words is really strong.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  First five words and first question.

• 44:27Emma Grede?

  All right, first five words, first, first question.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:30Emma Grede?

  What happens? Because it does happen when you just lose the room. Like you and you're looking around and people are on their phone and like they're not, you know, feeling the presentation. How do you bring everybody back in?

• 44:41Speaker 01

  So, so is this during a chit chat session or during your presentation?

• 44:45Emma Grede?

  Like during a presentation.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Oh, well, you gotta prepare for those. So you know, you know, you've lost people. You usually see it non-verbally first, right? So non-verbal disengagement looks a certain way. You know what this looks like? It's glassy eyes.

• 44:59Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  It's peeking over at your computer. It's that lean back, sit back block. So lean back, sit back block is someone leaning back in their chair. They're usually blocking their body. They often have a blocking behavior on their face. They're covering their mouth or their eyes. By the way, watch out for, when someone's covering their mouth or their eyes, it's either a blocking gesture in discomfort so that, something you said they don't like. Like for example, we, we tend to eye block, like rub our eyes. I'm not gonna touch my eyes now because I have too much cute makeup on. But if you, you rub your eyes, it's usually a sign that you don't want to see something. Like little kids, when you give them bad news, they cover their eyes.

• 45:32Emma Grede?

  True.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Right? So we have the same thing as, as humans. So if you see someone suddenly block or cover their eyes, they're either embarrassed or uncomfortable. Same thing with the mouth as we, we'll typically cover our mouth when we're trying to hold something back. So watch out for those signals. And then you have a choice. I like to address it. So if that person is disengaged with you, I will make them, I will give them a lot more eye contact. So oxytocin is energizing, right? So if I'm suddenly making eye contact with you, you're like, oh.

• 45:59Emma Grede?

  Oh, hello.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Someone's paying attention to me. I will often get physically closer to them, like not in a weird way, but like if I'm presenting and I can sort of walk towards them, towards the, in the boardroom, I will get physically closer to them because we know it's called proxemics. When someone closes the space, our brain's like, oh, pay attention. They can reach out and touch me. They can reach out and high five me. So our brain like kind of leans into that. And then you probably need a vocal tone change. So vocal tone change, right now I'm in explanation tone. But what if, just what if, I went into this tone? Now, I have to share something. It's, it's really personal. I used to really struggle with over talking. Now I'm in a storytelling tone change, right?

• 46:39Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  So you need to practice the different ways you deliver. Watch TED Talks, for example. There's a TED Talk tone. Have you ever noticed this?

• 46:46Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Here's what it sounds like. Ready? "Today, we're gonna talk about a big idea. I'm gonna break it down into three different things that are gonna change your life." Right? Like, we know that tone is high competent. Right? We're like, ah, we're in presentation mode.

• 47:00Emma Grede?

  So what do you do? You suggest people practice, like at home?

• 47:04Speaker 01

  I suggest people break their presentations. This is really advanced. If you really want to be an excellent presenter, I suggest you break your presentation or your pitch into warmth and competence. And you should be bouncing between the two. And the really good Shark Tank pitches, I love watching Shark Tank.

• 47:18Emma Grede?

  Love.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  The really good Shark Tank pitches, what they're doing is they're taking on an emotional journey. They usually start with something like this. Sharks, today, I'm gonna, and they have competence. They're in that competent shark tone. And then you'll notice about 30 seconds and a minute and they'll go into warmth. "My journey started when I was a child." And you're like, oh, warmth. And then their story gets a little bit boring. And they go, "But then I launched my first product and we had 600 sales." Competence. "Then I brought my wife into the business." Warmth. "Then we got our first customer." Warmth. "Then we hit these sales numbers." Competence. That is what they're doing. Really good TED Talks, really good Shark Tank pitches. We actually coded this. We analyzed 495 Shark Tank pitches. Jose Pena, my, my team member, helped me analyze them. And we saw that they were actually dialing up and down emotion. They were doing it non-verbally and verbally.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  So this is nuanced, but can you bring in warmth? Warmth are stories, case studies, personal history, even success stories, warmth. Gifts, funny gifts in your slides, a joke, passing something out, touching something. The, the Shark Tank pitches that had interaction, any kind of interaction, did better because they're immediately warm, right? So like touching something or giving something. And then competence, data, research, numbers, budgets, charts, glasses. Glasses are actually seen as competent. You should have a balance.

• 48:33Emma Grede?

  Wearing glasses.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Wearing glasses, yeah. We actually see people who wear glasses as hair and competence, which is, which is so silly. So we can plan for this, right? Really good presenters are. And it's not by accident. I think that if we can plan out warmth and competence, you're actually just being easier to listen to. That's all this is, is you want to be, make it so that someone's cognitive load is low. They can only take one mode for so long.

• 48:54Emma Grede?

  And that's just that.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:56Emma Grede?

  So say I'm sitting next to someone that can completely change the trajectory of my career. How can I have a conversation with that person without making it feel like overly transactional?

• 49:05Speaker 01

  So I like radical honesty. So sometimes in those situations, I like to call it out, right? Like if you're with someone who can change the trajectory of your career, I think you can say something like, you know, "I've been so looking forward to this conversation. Thank you so much for staying down with me. This could kind of change the trajectory of my life. So no pressure." Like, I, I think you can be playful. So that, that's option one is like, be very radically honest with it, be very playful. That works for me. Have you ever done that? I mean, in your pivotal moments, are you usually that honest or are you going for banter?

• 49:38Emma Grede?

  I'm that honest every day, pivotal moment or not. I just, that's just who I am.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  I think that that's the better way because usually someone knows it. Like if someone is sitting with you and they know they can change the trajectory of your career, let's just call it out.

• 49:51Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  And the research backs us up too, is radical transparency is also vulnerable. And we like vulnerability. It skips levels, right? If you go right into, like, let's, let's do the bad. I like to do bad and then good. You sit down with, let's say, an investor, right? Who, who, who would you like to, who does your ideal person, like, what's a person who could change their trajectory? Is it?

• 50:10Emma Grede?

  Let's say, let's say it's an investor or it's somebody very senior in a company, you know, a powerful person. Because I think the power plays into so much of these conversations.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  And powerful people know they're powerful.

• 50:21Emma Grede?

  Yes, they do.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Typically. And if you were to sit down with them and be like, "So how was your weekend?" It, it's just, it's not very real. And also, it kind of puts the pressure on them. I would rather be like, "Well, I've been looking forward to this my whole life. I'm, I'm, I'm grateful for this opportunity. It could change the trajectory of my whole life. I really want to get to know you. My goal today is..." And then skip to level two. Level two is goals. So if you skip to, you know, "My goal today is to get to know you," or "My goal today is to show you why this is the best investment you could possibly make," or "My goal today is to really connect with you. It's just for us to get to know each other." Share your goal right at the start because then you skip the level. You don't have to go through those horrible level one niceties.

• 51:00Emma Grede?

  And it's important to make yourself more memorable.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  I think so. I think so. And this is where emotion comes in, right? If you are asking socially autopilot questions, you are less memorable. If you are preparing stories, but also emotion frames, you become memorable. And this is also level three. So level three is where real memorability happens. Level three is the last one. We haven't talked about it yet. It's called self-narrative. This is the story you tell yourself about yourself. You know what really powerful people like? A story, because all people like a story. So I think we make the mistake sometimes of sticking to business, but as I say, there's really no just sticking to business. We like people where we are part of their story.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  So sharing, what is your hero's journey? That is going to hook a powerful person in because it's real.

• 51:50Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  It's really your story. But also, they want to be on the journey with you. They want to root for you. The mistake that I think really smart people make, and these are most of my students, is it's all numbers. And the worst Shark Tank pitches are these. It's all about the pitch, all about the numbers. There's no history. And usually the first question a shark asks is like, "Can you just tell me about you?"

• 52:07Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Or "How did you get started?" Right? Like, that's why they're asking those questions because they're like, "Give me warmth. Get me, get me your story." So this is the real challenge. With that powerful person or in any conversation, can you bring up your career self-narrative? What is the story you're telling yourself about yourself? What is the story of your career? And how could this person play an essential role in it? Where are you in your journey? Are you in the climb? Are you at the top? Are you at the bottom? We understand psychologically as humans that everyone should be on a hero's journey. If you bring them into that story, they are much more likely to root for you.

• 52:42Emma Grede?

  I get that. But how do you, I mean, maybe again, I might just be too English and too polite, but how would you get someone to trust you without like oversharing? Because there is that line, right? You're sitting in a professional conversation, you're like...

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, so horrible. Okay, here's the difference. Okay, here's the difference. I'm gonna do the bad version, I'm gonna do the good version. So, say, tell me about your business.

• 53:03Emma Grede?

  Oh, I'm gonna, tell me about your business.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Well, um, I, uh, you know, I'm so sorry. I'm so nervous. Um, you know, I, I just never thought I could do it. And I really struggle with imposter syndrome. And so I started my business, really despite all my imposter syndrome, that's too much.

• 53:21Emma Grede?

  Yeah, you've lost me.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Way too much, right? That's like way too much.

• 53:24Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  That's, that's oversharing. However, let's try again. So ask me again.

• 53:27Emma Grede?

  Okay. So Vanessa, tell me about your business.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Okay. This is the business that I think is going to transform women's lives. So I teach people how to X. And what got me started, I actually started this way back in college. I had this horrible problem and I couldn't believe it. And I was able to overcome it with this little product that I created.

• 53:45Emma Grede?

  What is it? What is it?

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. I had this little product I created and I, I pushed it, I pushed it, I sold it at farmer's markets. And then it started to go viral. And then once it went viral, I had all these women reaching out to me. And that's why I'm here with you, is I'm at this critical part of this journey with this product where I know all we need is a little bit of investment to take it off. But if we do not get this investment, I know that it will slow our growth. Right? So like, see the difference? I'm talking about, there's a little bit of emotion there about how I started it with my personal, my pain point, but I'm also, you saw where I was in the journey and where your role is.

• 54:17Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  So we're right before the pivot point. And we like that. We like to be right before a pivot point.

• 54:21Emma Grede?

  Because that is what happens so often. People give me a huge, long story, and yet they haven't told me how I can be helpful. I mean, what are you talking to me for?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 54:29Emma Grede?

  You know, I get it. I've got your whole life story. You've done this thing. Like, what do you need?

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Right. And so let's, let's break down the hero's journey, right? So here's the hero's journey. And I, I also hope that everyone's on a hero's journey, right? Like, I hope that this can be your story. Every hero's journey, when you're telling someone your story, what's the challenge? What was the pain point, the struggle? Start with that. And no more than 15 seconds in the struggle. That's a mistake that people make is they spend way too much time oversharing the struggle. So what was the challenge? What was the mistake? And the more relatable you can make that piece with universals. So like, I was overwhelmed, for my story, I was overwhelmed, I was a social over thinker. When I shared that I used to mistake neutral faces as negative, hopefully people watched, some people watching were like, oh, that's me.

• 55:08Emma Grede?

  Yeah, totally.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Okay, so then, then you skip to the hard work, the grit, the resilience, the discovery. What was the thing that made you overcome that in your business or yourself? 15 to 30 seconds. That's it. Right? What unique grit, hard work, resilience is it? And then where are you before the tipping point? Or did you have your tipping point? Right? There are some people who've had their success. What was the win? That's a hero's journey.

• 55:30Emma Grede?

  That's a hero's journey.

• 55:37Emma Grede?

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• 56:20Emma Grede?

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• 57:05Emma Grede?

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• 57:47Emma Grede?

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• 58:36Emma Grede?

  I'm interested what happens when people disagree with you, because it happens all the time. And how you would handle that in like, a conversationally, like, you know, appropriate or positive way. And specifically before we move on from work, like, because again, that is something that happens every day.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Welcome disagreement. Disagreement is an opportunity. Bad conversations are even an opportunity. You know why? When you can get through a disagreement with someone, you feel even more understood. So do not feel that you can only have agreeing, productive conversations to be charismatic. No. You can actually disagree very charismatically. So the first thing is, I think, calling it out. Right? Ooh, let's fight about this. Right? Let's get into it.

• 59:19Emma Grede?

  It's back to that just being really truthful and authentic thing, right? Over and over and over again. You're like, just say what's happening.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Okay, so the tendency in disagreement is to go one of two ways. To be defensive, it's not my fault, I didn't do it. Or to be offensive, it's your fault. I don't want you to do either. I want you to be very rigid with yourself. I'm not going to get defensive here. I'm not going to go attack them. I'm going to call this out. Ooh, we have a disagreement. Here we go. Okay, first, get logical. What you're trying to do when you disagree with someone is you want to keep them in logic. Don't let them go to the amygdala. Right? You don't want to go to lizard brain, because once someone is emotional, it's very hard to get through it. So you're going to go right back to logic, right? Go right back into solution mode. Okay, let's figure this out. So let me make sure I get this right. You stand here. Your position is AAAA. Does that sound right? Okay, so my position is here.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  BBB, BBBB. That's right, right? Okay, we got to figure out a way to meet in the middle. Here's our shared goal. Here's where we got to go. Notice how I'm using like a very, very logical tone?

• 1:00:18Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Right? I'm like, this is where you are.

• 1:00:20Emma Grede?

  This is right.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's clipped, because I want us to stay very logical. This is not about emotions. We got to figure out a solution. So it's your position, do I have that right? My position, do you understand that? Does that make sense? And then what are our shared goals? We have a client, we have a due date, we have a project, we have a budget, we have to get through it. Half of my work training companies is getting through those difficult conversations. Now, I will say, you know, it helps a disagreement? Rapport. Rapport.

• 1:00:44Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  So all that-

• 1:00:45Emma Grede?

  You know me, I know you, like, let's-

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  Right? Like, we like each other. We're good. So that rapport, that small talk is going to also make that disagreement when it comes so much better. So that's why it's also so worth it. It's so worth it, especially at work. It's lubricant.

• 1:00:57Emma Grede?

  It's lubricant.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Emma Grede?

  But it's, it's so nice, actually, even as we have this conversation, because so much of this goes full circle. It's like, if you're telling the truth, if you're being authentic, if you're saying what's actually happening, as opposed to this fantasy that's going on in your head, like, you will be a better-

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Or like, let's not pretend we're not disagreeing.

• 1:01:12Emma Grede?

  Like, we can just-

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  I like you, you like me. Or even like, you know, the old subtitle of my book was how to be instantly likable. And I changed it, because I was like, actually, there's some conversations where you don't like the person. And they can still be productive.

• 1:01:25Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Right? So like, maybe it's not you like them. Maybe it's like, you have a shared goal you got to get done. That's also okay.

• 1:01:30Emma Grede?

  That's also fun.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  That's also fine.

• 1:01:31Emma Grede?

  Totally fun. And you write about delivering hard feedback, which is, I think, one of the places that people struggle with so much. It doesn't matter how much practice you get. It's never easy to give hard feedback. But tell me about a time that you had to do it. And give me, give me the versions. When have you done it well? When have you done it badly?

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:01:52Emma Grede?

  And how should we be delivering?

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's do the bad first. I love doing the bad first. Bad is bounce, beating around the bush, and sugarcoating. I think that when we're, we have bad, deliver type feedback-

• 1:02:05Emma Grede?

  First of all, Vanessa, it's so amazing, that like, I just want people that are listening to this to go, that is bad. Because I just think that what happens, people go, beating around the bush, I'm just going to save you from hearing this for a second longer.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Doesn't work.

• 1:02:18Emma Grede?

  And then sugarcoating, I'm going to soften it. Nobody means for that to be bad, right? They think that that's delivering hard feedback in probably the best way to preserve the other person's feelings. But you go like, that's bad.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  That's bad.

• 1:02:30Emma Grede?

  That's bad.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  If someone's receiving bad news, it's very hard, it's very cognitive load. The quicker you can get to it, the better.

• 1:02:35Emma Grede?

  So no small talk?

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:37Emma Grede?

  Okay, that's when we cut the small talk.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  That's when we cut the small talk. And this is, I think, when you do permission feedback. This is how I do it. So when I've done it well, you know, I've done it badly when I get nervous and I beat around the bush. When I do it well, I say, I have some tough feedback. Do you want me to just give it to you? Or do you want me to do it slowly and softly? And you'll tell you.

• 1:02:54Emma Grede?

  Does anyone ever go, slow and soft?

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  I get both. I get both. I do get both. So I get folks who are like, slow and soft.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  And then I'm like, great, let's do it. So let's back up. Last week, we had a little issue. Remember? Remember what happened? And then I'll do it slow and soft. And there are people who are like, just give it to me. I'm like, yeah, you messed up last week. That was like a real problem. And here's how we have to fix it. Right? So I think like, radical transparency. Don't worry about the small talk in that sense. Your small talk that you invested in, all that small talk are investments. Every time that you ask better questions, you share good stories, you have that awe with someone, that is an investment. So that when you do have a disagreement, when you do have to deliver tough news, they remember. They remember this person's on my side. And that investment really pays off in those moments.

• 1:03:40Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I can, I can see that. And I just think, again, people really struggle with giving hard feedback, because they just imagine that people don't want it. And I think that as somebody who has to give feedback all the time, nine times out of 10, people are kind of- They might not find it in the moment, but they come back to you a week later and they're like, "That was really helpful. I'm really glad you actually told me that." So I wish we were able to get over it and find the way to just do it more frequently. Because I also think it doesn't help to like, wait for an assessment moment. Like, you know, it's like, give the feedback. Like, let's go.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  And people I think are most grateful. Me too. I've gotten bad feedback too. The worst thing you can do for someone when they have bad feedback is be confusing.

• 1:04:21Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Right? So sugarcoating is only going to confuse them.

• 1:04:24Emma Grede?

  So it's an interesting one, though, to think about when the shoe's on the other foot, right? Because it's fine if you're giving feedback to somebody that, you know, wherever they are in the organization, you're their superior.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Emma Grede?

  How do people do it the other way around? When you're talking to your boss, when you're talking to a leader, somebody that's got significantly more power than you, how do you talk to somebody without that imbalance, kind of diluting what it is that you want to say to them?

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  I think it's the exact same.

• 1:04:51Emma Grede?

  Is it really?

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  Look, imagine that someone came to you with bad feedback and they said, "Listen..."

• 1:04:55Emma Grede?

  Happens all the time.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Never happens. And they're like, "Hey, last week, uh, there was a problem." First of all, you don't want them to sugarcoat, right? You're like, "Just get to it." Busy people are busy, right? It's like, so get to it. And wouldn't you like it if someone was like, "Listen, something bad happened last week. You want me to give you the nice version or you want me to give you the hard version?" It's the same. I think we should...

• 1:05:14Emma Grede?

  You think it's exactly the same?

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  I think it's exactly the same. I think we should treat... Powerful people are people.

• 1:05:19Emma Grede?

  But how do you stop a power imbalance from controlling the conversation? Because even if that's fine for me, I think for the person having that, the conversation with me, it's tough for them. Then I, you know, I need to beat around the bush a bit.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  But I think beating around the bush is only going to, it's only going to be a disservice to you.

• 1:05:33Emma Grede?

  You're like, "We should never beat around the bush."

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  I don't think we should ever beat around the bush because it's going to cause confusion. And also, for a busy person, they're like, "Just tell me what it is."

• 1:05:42Emma Grede?

  Just tell me what it is.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Especially a highly smart person, they want efficiency in communication, right? So the faster you get it out and you do it, they're like, "All right, let's go. Let's fix it." And I will say, the one hierarchy difference would be, don't drop a monkey on their desk. Have you ever heard that metaphor is like, sometimes I think if you're the boss, you get people bringing in their monkeys and leaving them on your desk. Like, they just bring their problems to you and dump them on their desk. And then you're having an office full of monkeys.

• 1:06:04Emma Grede?

  No.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the best, don't drop the monkey on their desk, which is, come with the solution. So state the problem, the same way, do you want it soft? Do you want it hard? And then like, what is the next step? Don't expect them in the moment to troubleshoot. You had time. So think about what are the potential options for this? And that is a respectful thing to do for someone who is in a high position of power because they don't have a lot of time.

• 1:06:28Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I think that, that is really, really sad.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Also moves you both to resolution.

• 1:06:32Emma Grede?

  I was going to say, it gets you, it gets you closer to the point where you're like, "Okay, how are we on the other side of this already?"

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  And then you can brainstorm.

• 1:06:37Emma Grede?

  You're discussing, you're not in this problem, like you're discussing the way forward.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, the worst thing is like, you drop a problem and then you're like silent.

• 1:06:44Emma Grede?

  There was something that you said in the book. You said, "You believe the way that someone talks about their past can tell us something about what they'll do next."

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:06:51Emma Grede?

  So what should we listen for?

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  So I believe in frames, not facts. Meaning, someone could frame the facts of their life any way they want. And I've heard people do this. I do, in this research for this book, I was harvesting narrative. So I was asking people, "What's the story of your life? What's the story of how you got to where you are today? What forces shaped who you are that made you who you are today?" And the answers were, there were patterns in their answers. And what I noticed is there are two different kinds of frames people have. A contamination frame or a redemption frame.

• 1:07:22Speaker 01

  A contamination frame, so let's take the same facts, right? I was, uh, born to a single mom and, um, my dad left us. And I never finished school and I had a really hard time. And I was a mechanic because I had no other choices. And last year I had to buy the shop because I was going to be fired and I just struggle every day.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  That is a certain way of telling those facts. Versus, you know, I was born to a single mom. She's incredible. My dad left us, thank goodness, because I was better off with my mom. You know, I didn't end up finishing school. I actually got a really amazing job under a mechanic who taught me everything I know. Last year I had the opportunity to buy the shop. And it's a lot of pressure, it's a lot of work, but I have my own boss now.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Same facts, totally different frames. And so you hear this as people talk. So my goal for this is you'll have a big cornerstone conversation with someone in your life that is asking the really important question. I have nine power questions in the book. To ask these nine questions.

• 1:08:15Emma Grede?

  I love the nine power questions.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  So if you ask these nine questions, you're going to level up very quickly. Some of those questions are narrative at the end. Listen for their frames. Are they using superlatives? "Oh, I always have the best luck. I never get what I want." Right? So always, never's, black, white. Are they telling a redemption narrative? A redemption narrative, everything in their life was hard, but then it got better. Through their own grit and resilience and hard work, they got through it. Everything in their life will be redemptive. My team members, my friends who have redemption narratives, they're always telling redemption narratives. It doesn't matter what they're doing, it doesn't matter what the task is. That is their frame for life. My, I don't have any teammates who have a contamination narrative because it's really hard to work with.

• 1:08:56Emma Grede?

  Right, though, for a reason.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  But my friends and people who are in my family, who, who have a contamination narrative, everything is a contamination. It doesn't matter. They have a, a feeling that life is happening to them. They don't have a lot of agency. They often have the feeling that their bad luck is stopping them. That no matter how hard they work, no matter how smart they are, they will never be able to overcome. And that repeats in their personal relationships, in their work relationships with their money. You know, people have money narratives, specific narratives around money. We have to listen for those because people are telling us their stories.

• 1:09:29Emma Grede?

  All the time. Do you think if you, because I get it, right? I, I'm, I'm a redemption person. It's like everybody who works around me is that type of person. But if you're sitting there listening now and you know that you have the contamination narrative.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:44Emma Grede?

  How do you even begin to change that? Because you just told us the same story in two different ways. So if you're, if you know that that is your, your way of describing things, that that is your narrative, then the chances are, some pretty shitty things have happened to you because that's the story. And then you just don't know any other way to tell it. So what do you do? How do you begin to get to that point where you can start to shift and turn it into a redemption narrative?

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  This is the whole reason I wrote the book. The way we change our narrative is through conversation. The way that we change our story is through sharing our story. And then having people we love and we care about say, "Hey, there's actually a different way to look at it." Or, "Hey, let's rewrite your story." And this is the beautiful thing about narrative. Narrative are actually, it's not like any grammar or personality types. Narratives are changeable, meaning you can decide to change your narrative. They are not coded within you.

• 1:10:36Emma Grede?

  And Vanessa, can you do it for yourself?

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  You could, you could do it for yourself. You can do it through self-authorship. So the, the last chapter of the book is about self-authorship. Meaning, you have to believe you are the author of your own life. You have to believe that life doesn't just happen to you, that you are writing your narrative. Now, there's things, of course, you can't control. All of us have things we can't control. But you have to believe that the pen is in your hands. So my question for you is, what can you do in your life? And again, this is going back full circle to living a more interesting life. That was the very first, like, little nudge. How can you write your own story from now on? Right? How can you decide to do things that are going to change the story you tell yourself about yourself? The question, the fundamental question that I ask in self-narrative research is this. Are you lucky?

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Do you think you're lucky?

• 1:11:23Emma Grede?

  Oh, I think I'm so lucky.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  Me too. I think I'm so lucky. Ask this question of the people in your life. "Are you lucky?" is a hint at what someone's self-narrative is. If you answer, "No, I don't think I'm lucky," it's likely that you're struggling with a contamination narrative. What do you have to do in your life to feel luckier? I believe that the more chances you take, the more chances you have to get lucky. In this way, even trying out some of these socially courageous conversations, you're going to feel lucky. What if you meet your person? What if you have a great conversation? I think it's lucky you found this podcast, right? It is so lucky, if you happen to be listening to this right now on your drive, on your workout, you, this is lucky. And you're hearing this right now, this is the moment you get to be the author of your own life.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  It was lucky that you clicked on this today. You just happened to click on it. You happened to be listening to it. You get to start writing right now.

• 1:12:15Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and I think for anybody, we all know people that have the contamination narrative. You should send this to your friends. Because if I heard this, I would immediately recognize those traits in myself. I could name, like, literally, as you're speaking, I'm like, "This has to go to her and to her and to him and to her and to her." But it's like, you know that, you've just done it for so long that it's become a pattern. It's a story that you tell yourself and you've just got to find a new narrative. And even as you speak it, it's like, yes, actually, you, everybody will be able to find and identify a little nugget of luck somewhere. And that can be the beginning of your reframing.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Someone sent this to you.

• 1:12:52Emma Grede?

  Finding that, just listening to the podcast.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  How lucky. I, I clicked on this today. Oh my gosh, how... So two things. One, send this to them and say, "I want to listen to this with you." Right? Like, "I want to listen to this with you."

• 1:13:01Emma Grede?

  Oh, let's do it together. That's nice.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  Right? Let's send it together on a walk, on a drive. It's a cute little, little date, little podcast. I lift and listen to podcasts with my husband. We lift and listen to podcasts.

• 1:13:10Emma Grede?

  That's so romantic.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  So it's, it's so good. It's so good. So lift and listen, right? Or like, like, listen with your person. But second, be like, "Hey, can we do the nine power questions together?" The act of going through the questions is going to help them rewrite. Because even just voicing fears, like, one of the questions, I believe this is question, um, number, number eight, is, "How do you feel most misunderstood?"

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Just the act of asking and answering that question with, with someone you trust. It can be someone who you're even level two person. You're going to begin to think about, "How do I wish I was seen?" That is self-authorship, right? Talking about how you wish to be understood, that's writing your own story.

• 1:13:52Emma Grede?

  That is writing your own story. So something I love to talk about on this show all the time is money.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it.

• 1:13:58Emma Grede?

  But money conversations are rarely just about money, right? And people get really mixed up. They don't know how to speak about money. What can the way people speak about money actually reveal about them?

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Okay, so everyone has a money narrative.

• 1:14:13Emma Grede?

  Yes, they do.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Right? This is the story you tell yourself about your worth, about the money you make and success, right? I also believe people have career narratives. They're a little bit different. They can be tough, but they're a little different. This is a very personal story to me. So a couple that I knew, they were in like a little icebreaker dinner situation. And the icebreaker was, very casual, sounded very casual, was, "If you won the lottery, what amount of money would you need to never have to work again?" Kind of like a silly little conversation. This is a money narrative question. That is my narrative question. And someone in the couple said, "Five hundred thousand." And someone in the couple said, "Thirty million."

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  And they got divorced. And that couple told me it was that conversation that was the beginning of the unravel.

• 1:14:59Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  Because they had very different beliefs about money and what it could do for you. Neither of them were right or wrong, but they were totally incompatible.

• 1:15:08Emma Grede?

  Yeah, that's a fundamental disconnect.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  So first, just bringing into your conversations, those kinds of questions. What was your first money memory? Does money make you feel powerful, attractive, scared, free? Right, like even just asking those kinds of questions, you start to uncover things. Like, for example, my, my origin story as an entrepreneur actually starts with money. And I was like, I knew I wanted to be a mom. And so I knew that I didn't want to have a job that was tied to my hours. I knew that I did not want to do, I just still to this day don't do coaching or consulting. So I started the business because I knew that I wanted to create books. And so I think that like even asking someone, what was the first time you made money? How did it feel? How do you think about money? How does money drive you? If we talk about that, you're going to discover things about yourself, even as you're talking.

• 1:15:53Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and it's, it's so important. No one can get away from the conversations around money. And it really actually is one of those things, just as you described with, you know, the couple that got divorced. You really need to know that about the people that are closest to you.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:08Emma Grede?

  It's not a conversation you want to be necessarily having in the workplace, though I wish more women did.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Emma Grede?

  But those that are closest to you, you really need to understand and they need to understand you better through the lens of money.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:18Emma Grede?

  It's helpful.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  It's, it's helpful, it's also predictive.

• 1:16:22Emma Grede?

  Entirely.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:16:23Emma Grede?

  Entirely.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  If you hear what someone's money narrative was about their first job, it's going to tell you about a lot about this current job.

• 1:16:29Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  And how they save and how they don't save and how they spend. Yeah.

• 1:16:32Emma Grede?

  All right, so as we draw to a close, I really want to ask you this question because I think for so many of us, we have somebody that we've known for the longest time, for years and years and years, but we don't actually know them. So if this is somebody that you invested, invested a lot of time in and somebody that you love, like where do you even start to get deeper with people? Like you talk about the levels from level one to level two to level three. But this is not somebody like you're meeting for the first time. It's like, you know this person, you just don't know him.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  No, okay, so I would start with goals. So.

• 1:17:04Emma Grede?

  Oh, I love that.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  I love.

• 1:17:06Emma Grede?

  Two girls.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  I love a girl, girl, I mean, I'm a girl, girl, right?

• 1:17:08Emma Grede?

  I could do girls.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  Like I host Gold Digger Dinner, I'm like, I love gold. So I would start with goals and here's why is it's a good reset conversation. If you've known someone for a long time, you can't be like, what's your personal passion, project? Like, you know what I mean?

• 1:17:21Emma Grede?

  Facts.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  Right, you can't do that. So I have this concept in the book of like being a dream builder. Being a dream builder is like your additive, you're, you're always kind of harvesting, right? So I would start here, which is, I was listening to this podcast, right? You can use context clue. I was, I was listening to this podcast or like anytime around New Year's, I reinvigorate some of my old friendships. I'm like, hey, what's your big goal for 2027? You know, like, so birthdays, New Year's.

• 1:17:43Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  Start of the month, start of the week, start of the quarter.

• 1:17:47Emma Grede?

  Excuse.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Basically anytime. Right, basically anytime. So if it's the start of a month, just be like, hey, you want to do an October goal? Want to do a number goal? I'm thinking about doing this goal set, you want to do goals with me? So I would actually start with goals because it's a way of, you're just like, it's a little sneaky way to flip on their growth mindset.

• 1:18:04Emma Grede?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  So growth mindset is important for long-term relationships because I think we can get out of the habit of growing with our partners or growing with our friends.

• 1:18:12Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and it's death to a relationship.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  That's a relationship because we're not learning if we're not growing. So if you're asking, hey, I want to do a goal reset with you, do you want to do some goals with me? I was listening to Emma and Vanessa talk, you're saying, will you learn and grow with me? So then you start with goals.

• 1:18:25Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and I'm taking an interest in things that are important to you.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  What is your goal for the month? What is your goal for, what is your personal goal? What is your work goal? What is your health goal? What is your social goal? Right? So you're talking about goals, then what do we need to learn? We're sneaking getting into the questions because question number five is about goals, question number six is about learning. So what do we need to learn to get that goal? Now we're really talking about growth mindset. If you've been with someone for a long time, like what's the new thing we want to learn? Read, watch, do, is it a class? Are we trying something together? Then you're getting into a little bit of accountability and then maybe you can learn something together. So goals and learning, hmm, it's a great way to reinvigorate.

• 1:18:59Emma Grede?

  I actually think it's a brilliant way to reinvigorate because especially if you think about, you know, let's say you're, you have a relationship, you're in a couple, you've had your kids. Like you're not doing that thing together, you're living in the same house. Like I, I remember my husband's father, he always used to say like, relationships have to give birth to something. Meaning that you need to create together. And actually, if you're aligning on your goals and you're like, we're going to learn this, you sing together, it's like you're creating something together.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  And actually, the research.

• 1:19:28Emma Grede?

  It's really amazing.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  A shared future comes from goals. So saying like our, even if it's like, we're going to learn Italian, right? Creating a shared future where you're both speaking Italian is actually very, very bonding. So it also speaks to the science that was very wise of them.

• 1:19:41Emma Grede?

  He was a very wise man. So if someone listening changes one thing after listening to this episode, what should it be?

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Know, small talk, small talk diet, small talk diet. Meaning for the next 30 days, know what do you do? Know how are you or any version of it? Know where are you from? Small talk diet for 30 days. I want you to go on a small talk cleanse. Just see what happens if you stop defaulting to those questions. You're going to feel a little bit nervous, it's going to be a little bit hard, remember that's reps. Right, the first time you do push ups is really hard, but just that 30 days, you're going to break the conversational bad habits. You're going to get conversational strong.

• 1:20:21Emma Grede?

  Do you think there's anything that can't be taught?

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  I'm a pretty growth mindset person. Anything that can't be taught? I don't think you can fake authenticity. You know, occasionally you'll get someone who's like, I don't like them. I don't think you can fake liking. I, I just don't think you can learn that. I don't think you can learn how, how to be an authentically likable.

• 1:20:41Emma Grede?

  You've spent so many years doing this.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Emma Grede?

  And learning it and getting so good at it. And I think that what you've spoken about so much today is like figuring out the questions that make people feel known. And I wonder if there's one question that you have that you wish people would ask more often.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  Hmm, it's a really hard one, but it is my true wish, which is, what would you do if you weren't afraid? I think most of us are afraid a lot, like we're afraid of failure, we're afraid of rejection, we're afraid of not being liked, we're afraid in conversation, we're afraid in business. And if we could just peel back that layer, you know, what would you do if you weren't afraid right now? Would you afraid, if you weren't afraid in your business? What would you do if you weren't afraid socially? I think that we would really get to some major truths.

• 1:21:30Emma Grede?

  So tell me, what do you still aspire to do or to be?

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Hmm, I aspire to make a global movement of conversationalists. And this is tricky, right? Like I don't say that lightly. I think we're opting out of conversation every day.

• 1:21:46Emma Grede?

  Okay, we're moving to rapid fire, which I'm terrible at, but I feel like you're bad.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  You're terrible.

• 1:21:50Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I can't act think quickly, as we know, like.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  I know, I was like, what is she going to ask me? I'm not going to fire.

• 1:21:55Emma Grede?

  I'm going to try. All right. A famous conversation that you think everyone needs to listen to?

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  Yes, there's a forgotten conversation in history. It is the first conversation between Martin Luther King and Lyndon B. Johnson. When President Lyndon B. Johnson took office, he had to take over the civil rights agenda from Kennedy very quickly. And Martin Luther King had built up all this, this camaraderie with Kennedy. He had to restart it. And this, it's documented, they have the transcripts of this conversation, the very first phone call between the two of them. It is mastery, it is master level. I have it printed word for word in my book, very basic, if you don't want to read it, it's, they skipped the small talk and they started immediately with gratitude. So both Lyndon B. Johnson and Martin Luther King, they both had very serious agendas they were working on and they had to find camaraderie. So they started with camaraderie and gratitude.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  They also talked about legacy. They were literally in the very first two minutes.

• 1:22:50Emma Grede?

  Level two.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Level two. We're like, legacy.

• 1:22:53Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Kennedy's legacy. And then incredibly, this is a president, right? Lyndon B. Johnson's president, he actually said all of his worries in the first minute of the conversation. He lists to Martin Luther King, his worries about these bills. And immediately, that's, that's a hero's journey, right? Lyndon B. Johnson said, I need help with this. I am worried about getting this done. And Martin Luther King is like, let's go. Not in those, those words, but he's like, I'm your ally, let's do it. That conversation is short but high stakes. I think like we tend to think of conversations as casual and social and they're wonderful, but there are some very high stakes conversations and they don't have to be long. Like if you know what to hit, you can do them right. So if I could just replay, if I could just replay that, broadcast it out, I would.

• 1:23:39Emma Grede?

  Another reason to buy the book.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you, thank you.

• 1:23:41Emma Grede?

  Um, okay, text, voice note or phone call? Tell the truth, Vanessa.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Video call.

• 1:23:50Emma Grede?

  Video call.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Video call.

• 1:23:51Emma Grede?

  Okay.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  I'm a video caller, I'm a, I'm a spontaneous video caller.

• 1:23:54Emma Grede?

  Really? Oh, yeah. I'm picking up to you.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  You know what?

• 1:23:56Emma Grede?

  No, no, no, no. I feel like you need to text ahead to FaceTime me. I'm like 12, 44 years old.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:24:02Emma Grede?

  No, it has to be a family member for me to pick this up.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  I will, I FaceTime my friends and I want to see them at their ugliest. I love it. I call people when I'm like sweaty in the sauna. I'm like, hello, like in my sauna hat. You know, you're my good friend if I randomly video call you.

• 1:24:16Emma Grede?

  Wow, deep, that's very deep. A communication habit that you want people to stop doing right away?

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  Stop asking, been busy? Stop asking that question and stop talking about how busy you are.

• 1:24:29Emma Grede?

  There's no, both of those.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  There's no good way.

• 1:24:30Emma Grede?

  That's it. I really enjoy that, by the way, that, that was really good, well done. Is there a book that's changed your life?

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  So many books have changed my life. I'm going to go back to the original, the first self-help book I ever read. So it was on my mom's dresser and she was like, I was like, why is my mom reading a book? It was an old school book called Why Men Don't Listen and Why Women Can't Read Maps. It was by Barbara and Alan Pease. And it was, I, I didn't know self-help existed. Back then, you know, I was like, I was like in elementary school or something, like early high school. I thought it was only fiction books. I read this book and I understood my dad.

• 1:25:02Emma Grede?

  Oh.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Like I read this book and explained how men think versus how women think. I don't even know if it holds up, I haven't read it, but I was like, oh, I understand my dad, I understand my brother. Like it actually was the first time where I understood my, the people in my life. And I was like, I want to write books like this. That was the first time where I was like, this is what I want to write.

• 1:25:20Emma Grede?

  That's amazing.

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  And I was like 12.

• 1:25:22Emma Grede?

  Well, let me tell you, anyone who goes out and gets a copy of your book will understand something in a whole new way. It's as enlightening, like honestly, congratulations to you because it's a really amazing book and there's so much to learn in there. You should be really proud of yourself.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  Thanks for having this conversation with me.

• 1:25:39Emma Grede?

  I'm so happy to have done it. Thank you, my love. So good.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:47Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Our executive producers are Ashley McShan, Derek Brown and me. Executive producers from Odyssey are Asha Saluja and Leah Reese Dennis. Producer KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Phil Sweetech and Carlos Delgado. Social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale.

• 1:26:29Emma Grede?

  Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sidney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME. Josefina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meekle, Evan Cox, Kirk Courtney, Andrew Steele, Sean Cherry and Lauren Viera. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemmagreed. Grede is spelled G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E with Emma Grede. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

• 1:27:05Speaker 07

  Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast. Ever Google a money question and end up 12 tabs deep with 12 different answers? This podcast is your shortcut back to clarity. NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast breaks down financial decisions with a team of trusted journalists. They explain the why behind decisions like investing, home buying and choosing credit cards with clear, research-backed insights. No jargon, no misinformation. Make your next financial move with confidence. Follow NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast on your favorite podcast app.