ROLLUP: Saylor Getting Sued | Avalanche Playing Dirty?! | MERGETEMBER | Maker Drama

1st Week of Mergetember, 2022 ------ 📣 ConsenSys | Mint a Merge NFT! https://bankless.cc/themerge ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🚀 ROCKET POOL | ETH STAKING https://bankless.cc/RocketPool ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum ❎ ACROSS | BRIDGE TO LAYER 2 https://bankless.cc/Across 🦁 BRAVE | THE BROWSER NATIVE WALLET https://bankless.cc/Brave 🌴 MAKER DAO | DECENTRALIZED LENDING https://bankless.cc/MakerDAO 🔐 LEDGER | SECURE STAKING https://bankless.cc/Ledger ----- Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 4:33 MARKETS 4:36 BTC Price 4:56 ETH Price 5:23 ETH/BTC 5:52 Total Crypto Market Cap 6:32 Merge Estimator 10:15 Fed Watch https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/26/powell-warns-of-some-pain-ahead-as-fed-fights-to-lower-inflation.html 12:10 ETH Dives %10 After Powell Rate Hike Signal https://www.thedefiant.io/markets-dive-powell-speech 15:33 Avalanche Playing Dirty? https://cryptoleaks.info/case-no-3 https://medium.com/@kyleroche/my-response-b691563c255b 24:00 Tweet from Emin https://twitter.com/el33th4xor/status/1564006450531377156 25:00 Maybe Not True? https://twitter.com/AriDavidPaul/status/1564253955785461767 26:44 David Take https://twitter.com/TrustlessState/status/1565340995062882311 30:35 Saylor Getting Sued 31:40 Saylor Tax Fraud https://blockworks.co/michael-saylor-and-microstrategy-sued/ https://twitter.com/AGKarlRacine/status/1565031380471382019 https://twitter.com/tier10k/status/1565040637044465666 34:37 Maker 34:40 Drama Summary https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1564716178819653632.html 43:05 NEWS 43:09 ETH 43:13 Coinbase Announces cbETH https://decrypt.co/108180/coinbase-announces-cbeth-wrapped-ethereum-staking-token https://twitter.com/CoinbaseAssets/status/1562476695357358080 https://dune.com/Marcov/coinbase-wrapped-staked-eth 47:43 Abritrum One Upgraded to Nitro Stack https://twitter.com/arbitrum/status/1565041950142730245 48:48 Yesterday’s State of the Nation https://youtu.be/yYzQPRRAs6M 48:55 cOptimism Gas ATH https://twitter.com/MSilb7/status/1565131857464901633 49:55 Data Giant Shocks Ethereum with Ban on Mining https://www.thedefiant.io/data-giant-shocks-ethereum-with-ban-on-mining 54:04 Vitalik Book https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1564804705997361153 55:10 NFTs 55:15 Facebook & Instagram Allow Posting NFTs https://twitter.com/Meta/status/1564282540831248387 56:00 cReddit Subtly Launches NFTs https://twitter.com/itstimconnors/status/1562839909261447168 59:09 Ticketmaster Integrates with DapperLabs’ Flow Blockchain https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/31/ticketmaster-taps-the-flow-blockchain-to-let-event-organizers-issue-nfts-tied-to-tickets/amp/ 59:55 Goose NFT to Bankruptcy Liquidation https://twitter.com/dmitricherniak/status/1563587242777448448 1:01:06 Regulation FBI Issues Warning to Vulnerable DeFi Platforms https://decrypt.co/108542/fbi-issues-warning-over-vulnerable-defi-platforms 1:03:47 Crypto.com $10.5M Accident https://fortune.com/2022/08/31/crypto-com-accidentally-transferred-10-million-to-thevamanogari-manivel/ 1:05:40 Releases 1:05:42 Orca Protocol Rebrand to Metropolis https://metropolis.mirror.xyz/ozkx0ZMwIzyahRJiQKpNv_8r7vAhOo-8tucjONhXJHI 1:06:20 Raises 1:06:24 PROOF $50M from a16z & More https://a16zcrypto.com/investing-in-proof/ https://twitter.com/proof_xyz/status/1564689271755137024 1:07:28 Reddit’s Ohanian’s $177M Crypto Fund https://decrypt.co/108560/reddit-co-founder-eyes-177m-crypto-fund-invest-strong-founders-discount-report 1:08:16 Genesis Raise $500M https://cointelegraph.com/news/everything-s-on-sale-reddit-founder-galaxy-and-genesis-execs-raise-big-money 1:08:50 Jobs https://pallet.xyz/list/bankless/jobs 1:12:07 Questions from the Nation https://twitter.com/avi_g_/status/1565192839021363200 https://twitter.com/nextalphaa/status/1565011491304230912 https://twitter.com/HappyjoeNFT/status/1565031005475418114 https://twitter.com/teemu_lens/status/1565008572248899584 1:21:55 TAKES 1:22:00 New take on the cycle https://twitter.com/gasull/status/1564888312157876229 1:23:33 99% of Crypto is a Joke https://twitter.com/RyanSAdams/status/1564257934011379713 1:25:12 Gravity Turns Off https://twitter.com/TrustlessState/status/1564637280379502593 1:27:17 Worlds Greatest Bitcoiner https://twitter.com/cobie/status/1565264636445745153 1:30:14 What David’s Bullish On 1:31:23 What Ryan’s Bullish On 1:34:55 MEME of the Week https://twitter.com/hegemony_inc/status/1564357396784263170 ----- Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  And David, before we get in, because it is Merge-Tober.

• 0:03David Hoffman?

  Merge-Tober. No, Merge-Tember.

• 0:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  Excuse me, Merge-Tember. Oh, did I just curse us?

• 0:08David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 0:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hey, Bankless Nation, it is the first Friday of September. Or David, should I say Merge-Tember? Because that's what month it is. It is the merge month. And that means that all of the Bankless episodes in September are called Mergecasts, not podcasts. How'd you like that?

• 0:26David Hoffman?

  I did not know this. I did not know this about our podcast.

• 0:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  You were ready for that. Anyway, guys, this is the Weekly Roll-Up. I said it this time, not David. What should people do when listening to the Weekly Roll-Up? David, what beverage should they be drinking?

• 0:39David Hoffman?

  Oh, of course. You know, I'm not saying that everyone has to be drinking coffee, but you know, it's the coffee that I drink when I listen to the Weekly Roll-Up every Friday morning, because sometimes I do actually listen to it, you know, to catch up in the week in crypto.

• 0:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  You said it's the coffee that you drink.

• 0:53David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 0:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think you meant to say it's the beverage that you drink is coffee, but you said it's the coffee that you drink is a beverage.

• 0:58David Hoffman?

  Yes, that's what I meant. That's what I meant, yeah.

• 1:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Same thing.

• 1:00David Hoffman?

  Sometimes I mix up trillions and billions. Sometimes I mix up beverage and coffee. You know how it goes. Friday rituals.

• 1:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Of course, if you are a Weekly Roll-Up fan, you will know that if you add anything to your coffee, David considers that a beverage, no longer a coffee. The only real coffee is black coffee. That's what I learned from David.

• 1:19David Hoffman?

  Black coffee, espresso, water and coffee. That's how it works.

• 1:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's, that's.

• 1:23David Hoffman?

  I don't write the rules.

• 1:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  No milk. Alright, guys, we got some interesting topics this week. David, you want to tease some of them up?

• 1:30David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we got some shenanigans going on this week. First off, Avalanche playing dirty, question mark? Using nation-state legal systems to sue other alt-layer ones in order to get ahead? Kind of just like taking a hack at your opponent's legs as you try and run a footrace? You know, not totally, completely proven, so we'll go back on the details on that. But also, Michael Saylor getting sued in the District of Columbia for not paying taxes, perhaps creating a forced Bitcoin seller. We're going to cover that, that drama. And then also, Maker Dow wants to de-peg DAI. No longer $1 equals 1 DAI, perhaps. At least these are the conversations going on in the Maker Dow discourse.

• 2:13David Hoffman?

  We're going to summarize all of this and more, but also, rather than all the negative stuff, there's also some positive stuff, of course, also happened this week. Ryan, what were some of the good things that happened?

• 2:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, you got the bad things. A few of the good things, some highlights are a new liquid staking token, ETH staking token, just launched on the scene, and it's from one of the largest exchanges. I don't know if you guys can guess which one, but we will tell you in the rollup as it progresses. Also, a rollup itself just upgraded and made Ethereum seven times bigger. That was the news this week. Start with an A, I won't tell you which one until we get into the episode. And then Facebook and Instagram just expanded their NFT offering. So there's definitely a lot to talk about on the good side. And of course, if you like these rollups, you're listening on your podcast player, make sure you like it.

• 3:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Make sure you write us a review. Give us five stars if you think we are worthy of five stars. And then also, if you're listening to this on YouTube, watching it, I should say, make sure you hit that subscribe button. And David, before we get in, because it is Merge Tober.

• 3:18David Hoffman?

  Merge Tober. No, Merge Tember.

• 3:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Excuse me, Merge Tember. Oh, did I just curse us?

• 3:23David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Well, day one of September, and we're already off to a bad start.

• 3:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  This might redeem me with listeners is, did you know you can go get a commemorative Merge NFT badge? Collectible, I suppose I should say. Consensus is putting this out. What is the program that they're running, David?

• 3:42David Hoffman?

  Oh, yeah, they're doing a free NFT mint. It's going to be the first, I think this is the plan, the first NFT mint post-merge. Therefore, the first, like, green, naturally green Ethereum NFT mint. And so this is just a free NFT. There's no whitelist, there's no nothing. Everyone's available to mint one, one per transaction. And this is going to happen, so you can sign up in the link in the show notes to get notified, of course, of when the merge actually happens. And then also, a 72-hour mint window to celebrate the achievement of all the Ethereum core devs, client teams, and researchers. So, free NFT mint marking the merge. So cool.

• 4:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is a way to prove to your grandkids you were there, right?

• 4:22David Hoffman?

  Yes, I was here. I was present and accounted for.

• 4:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  I got my NFT to show it. You can find out more about that, make sure you sign up at bankless.cc/conensus for some more details. All right, David, let's get to the markets, man. What is Bitcoin doing this week?

• 4:37David Hoffman?

  Going down. It's going down, Ryan. Bitcoin started the week at $21,700. It went down 9.5% to where it is now at $19,600. We are below $20,000. Oof.

• 4:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's just about double digits, man. That's a pretty steep drop.

• 4:52David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we're below 2017 all-time highs.

• 4:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, and ETH, has that shown us anything better? Because the merge is coming, David.

• 4:59David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, the Ether also down, also down, down 10%, down, started the week at $17,010, currently at $15,030, down a little bit more than Bitcoin, yeah.

• 5:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  We're going to talk about this in a minute, but this feels awfully correlated to the NASDAQ and the stock market coming on the back of some of Powell's recent comments in Jackson Hole, as he gave them. We'll get to that in a minute, but how about the ratio? Is that giving us any signal?

• 5:26David Hoffman?

  Uh, yeah, it did. The same thing it did last week, where it plummeted down to like .073, .072, but it then recovered back to .0783. So it's overall down 1.3% on the week. It started the week at .079, currently down to .078, but it hit .073 intro week and bounced back up. So, still life in the ratio.

• 5:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  Still life in the ratio. How about global cryptocurrency market cap? Are we above a trillion still?

• 5:56David Hoffman?

  Barely. We are barely above a trillion. We started the week at 1.085 trillion, and we are 1.002 trillion, so $20 billion away from $1 trillion. No, wait, $2 billion, $2 billion.

• 6:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, so what is ETH right now? So it is 14 or 1500 something?

• 6:15David Hoffman?

  1530.

• 6:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  1530. Okay, so it's still floating above the 2017 all-time high, I guess, or 2018 all-time high. I don't even know if people care about that number anymore. Do you think that's like old news?

• 6:27David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I'm not sure.

• 6:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it feels kind of old news. All right, this is a prediction for the merge date, which of course we've explained is somewhat changing, ever-changing. What is this showing us?

• 6:40David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so this is bordel.wtf, and there was another merge predictor website that we showed last week that predicted the merge had like moved up to like early morning September, and it even flashed into late Tuesday. But that was one calculation, and here's bordel.wtf, which is a more conservative calculation. So this one moves a little bit. A little bit slower. As hash rate comes and goes, the merge date changes. And so like, people don't really know. And so the other, the calculation that we showed last week was pretty like aggressive in how much it updates based off of recent hash power. The bordel.wtf site changes a little bit slower. And this one is still showing that we are going to likely merge around Thursday noon UTC time, which is about 8:00 AM Eastern Time.

• 7:26David Hoffman?

  We will see.

• 7:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. So what happens with the hash rate? How is that related to the merge date, whether it's like sooner or later?

• 7:34David Hoffman?

  Yeah. So total terminal difficulty, this is that TTD number. It's the replacement for block height. So then this is why the date hops around every now and then. We didn't choose a block. We chose a TTD, a total terminal difficulty. What the hell is TTD? You don't really need to know this. Don't like carve out space in your brain. This is really like the one time thing that's going to be relevant. But it's basically the raw number of hashes. So total number of hashes that goes into proof of work. Once the total number of hashes hits that TTD number of 5, 8, 7, 5, and then what looks like 20 zeros after that, I'm not, don't even know what number that is. A significantly large number, then we merge. And so the faster, the more hash power there is, the more that miners come online and do proof of work mining.

• 8:17David Hoffman?

  The faster we grow the hashes, the faster we approach that TTD number. If miners drop off the network, then we approach that number slower. And so it's a function of like how many miners are mining on Ethereum. And as that goes up, merge comes sooner. As it goes down, merge goes further away.

• 8:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  I wonder if we'll see any drop because if we see some drop, like hash rate go down as, as the Thursday of September 15th, excuse me, March 15th approaches, then like that could extend it into like Friday. I personally, I'm, I'm hopeful it, it hash, hash rate goes down a little bit so that we get like, you know, like 2, 3:00 PM or so in the afternoon. It's just nice and casual, right? We could just kick back and relax and this doesn't go super early into the like wee hours.

• 9:03David Hoffman?

  I would like to have a margarita while the merge happens. Yes.

• 9:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  Same. Just like afternoon, early evening. That'd be so relaxing. But yeah, there's nothing we could do. I guess we don't really know what the hash rate is going to do. Is there any reason to believe that miners might drop off as, as the merge gets closer?

• 9:20David Hoffman?

  It makes sense for miners to not come online as we get closer to the merge. So that that makes sense to me. Like if you have late, no one's investing in Ethereum proof of work now. That's too late. And so it only makes sense for it to stay the same or drop off. It's one of those things that there's a little bit of game theory behind this, right? So if like 50% of miners, the day before the merge, just like, all right, let's like pack up shop. Well, then you're actually making it twice as profitable for the 50% of miners that stick around for that last remaining day.

• 9:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right.

• 9:49David Hoffman?

  And so like, I don't know, I kind of think the, if you have a miner, miner, the only reason why you would want to shut down your mining rigs is to sell your GPUs before the rest of miners sell their GPUs. But I don't really know how liquid the GPU market is or how relevant that is. I don't know. I don't know.

• 10:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's probably likely that they'll just stay and continue to squeeze the remaining proof of work juice out of this.

• 10:11David Hoffman?

  It's still extremely profitable to be a miner, so.

• 10:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. All right, David, let's get to our Fed watch. That was our merge watch. Coming soon, man. Just next couple of weeks, of course, the merge, but the Fed watch. So as I said earlier, Jerome Powell was out in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. He gave a policy speech and this sent markets tumbling. Here is a CNBC article, Powell warns of some pain in quotes ahead as the Fed fights to bring down inflation. The Fed Chairman Jerome Powell on Friday pledged, that's last Friday, that the central bank will use our tools forcefully to attack inflation. It's still running and it's running near its highest level in more than 40 years. So he gave a speech. He said it would take

• 10:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  some time. I think the TLDR of this is Powell is saying the Fed Reserve, the Federal Reserve has to continue raising rates and even hold them at the higher level that's coming soon until at least inflation is under control. And that's at the cost of jobs, possibly. So unemployment could continue to rise and Powell is saying he'll continue to be, to be hawkish. So even though he's saying that though, David, what's interesting is the market is still predicting that rate cuts will start around. Summer of next year, June of like 2023, if you kind of look at the like what the market is pricing in.

• 11:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  So today, the Fed rate, the target rate is between, you know, two and a half, two and a quarter to 2.5%. And the market is pricing it a 70% chance that we increase by another 75 basis points September 21st. Right? So that would be the next time the Fed might increase rates. So Powell continuing to be hawkish. Of course, this sent markets for a tumble, the NASDAQ, the S and P. And people are blaming this on the crypto dive as well. This is why ETH is down 10% on the week.

• 12:14David Hoffman?

  I think the other take I heard was that we had one month of inflation that didn't get higher. And then everyone was like, it's reversing.

• 12:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's over.

• 12:24David Hoffman?

  It's over. And then people like, wait, no, that was just like one month worth of data. Like, we're still.

• 12:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  We need a few more months.

• 12:31David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 12:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  And this is Powell playing kind of the bad cop and saying, yeah, we need more time. Inflation is not dead yet and I will continue to try to squeeze it out of resist, out of existence. This reminds me though, David, next week, we have Arthur Hayes on the podcast.

• 12:48David Hoffman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  And you ask him a really interesting question that I think you've asked a number of our macro guests and our merge guests.

• 12:54David Hoffman?

  Trying to get the answer at once.

• 12:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  And that question is, which is more powerful in the trading world, in the price world? The merge or macro?

• 13:05David Hoffman?

  I've been asking this question so many times to so many people and I finally got someone to give me the answer that I wanted. And now that that becomes the bona fide correct answer, in my opinion.

• 13:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think we all know what answer you wanted, so we won't even say it. But tune into that episode. It's a special episode coming out on the Bankless Podcast.

• 13:24David Hoffman?

  On Wednesday.

• 13:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  And YouTube on Wednesday of next week.

• 13:26David Hoffman?

  Wednesday. Arthur Hayes on Bankless.

• 13:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  What do we got coming up next, David?

• 13:30David Hoffman?

  Oh, God. Avalanche playing dirty, suing other blockchains, blockchain suing blockchains. Is that even allowed? Apparently it is. Michael Saylor. Going to have to sell Bitcoin? Not because he wants to, of course, but because he got in trouble with the law. Naughty, naughty. And of course MakerDAO die drama. Is die going to de-peg from MakerDAO on purpose? Uh, so all of these stories and so much more after that are coming right after we talk to some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. The layer two era is upon us. Ethereum's layer two ecosystem is growing every day and we need layer two bridges to be fast and efficient in order to live a layer two life. Across is the fastest, cheapest and most secure cross-chain bridge. With Across, you don't have to worry about high fees or long wait times. Assets are bridged and available for use almost instantaneously.

• 14:15David Hoffman?

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• 14:57David Hoffman?

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• 15:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Alright guys, we are back with the first news item of this segment. Is Avalanche playing dirty? There's some drama in the space, maybe some legal things flying around. I gotta be honest, David, with some of these stories coming out. I haven't been following them in depth. Because I guess maybe I'm at that point with like, I just don't care that much.

• 15:55David Hoffman?

  Well, that makes sense coming from you because this is something strictly outside of crypto economics. This is like meats-based lawyer stuff. And that's why this story is what it is, is because like you guys, like the claim is that Avalanche is playing a game outside of the game. And that's probably why you don't care.

• 16:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so catch me up, like what actually happened? And then maybe then I'll tell you whether I care or not.

• 16:20David Hoffman?

  So this website, crypto leaks.info, this is actually the first time I've ever discovered this website. Crypto leaks info published a very long and with lots of like content whistleblower article that is basically claiming that Ava Labs and this one lawyer law firm Roche Friedman is suing, like systemically suing as many different like blockchains, L1s as they can in order just to like play dirty. And so player number one, we have Ava Labs, the for-profit company behind Avalanche, led by CEO Emin Gunseer, employs about 150 people. Player number two, Roche Friedman, a law firm that widely sues people in crypto, currently running 25 class action lawsuits, including Binance,

• 17:06David Hoffman?

  Ava Labs competitor Solana, Definity, and a few others. And it's being led by Kyle Roche, who's another big player in the story and employs about 30 lawyers. The claim here is that some years ago, Ava Labs and Roche Friedman made a deal, a pact that was formed that involved Ava Labs granting Roche Friedman, Roche Friedman, how do you pronounce this guy's name? Roche, R-O-C-H-E Friedman. A massive quantity of Ava Labs stock and Avalanche cryptocurrency AVAX now worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And it's game for Roche Friedman agreeing to pursue a hidden purpose. And this is what this this claim, this whistleblower. Crypto leaks on info is claiming what that hidden purpose is. Purpose number one, surreptitiously causing harm to competitors.

• 17:49David Hoffman?

  If there are two horses competing in a race, you can hack at the leg of the other and the other one will win. Their horses AVAX and Ava Labs stock and initiating a class action lawsuit against competitors can harm them in multiple ways. So they have secretly weaponized the legal system to do this, even when they only make a weak case. Such that with a high broad, even with a high probability that they lose their own litigation. This can still cause harm to their targets, greatly profiting them in the long run. Moving the price of AVAX by only a small amount by harming competitors can produce a big gains for them. While they make sales from their huge hoard of AVAX, Hobens and Ava Labs stock. Basically, the idea is that you go and sue your competitors and then they have to take resources to fight this.

• 18:30David Hoffman?

  This class action lawsuit, whatever this litigation in order to defend themselves. And so like you only spend five to $10 million on like trying to sue them and they spend 10s plus millions of dollars trying to defend themselves. And then the second purpose, luring regulators, including the SEC and CFTC away from Ava Labs. They often litigate against competitors in ways that make them look guilty of regulatory transgressions. Directing the attentions of regulators towards competitors can cause further harm to them. And also serves to lure regulators away from Ava Labs and their ravenously commercial behavior, which regulators would otherwise be very interested in. Kyle tells that he litigates to create other magnets for regulators to go after.

• 19:15David Hoffman?

  And they do this to crypto actors, actors who are not obvious competitors. Basically throwing other teams, organization, companies under the bus to make sure that Ava Labs doesn't become a target of the SEC or CFTC.

• 19:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Can I pause here and make sure I'm following so far? All right, so there's this website called Crypto Leaks. And they claim to be a website that supports like whistleblowers. So if you see something, you know, skeevy and scammy and sketchy, you email them, you give them the evidence, the data, and they'll report it on your behalf, right? So what we have is a whole blog post full of maybe some evidence, looks like some video evidence of this. Dubious law firm Roche and the charge that basically Ava Labs gave this lawyer tokens.

• 20:02David Hoffman?

  And equity.

• 20:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  And equity in exchange for him going after their competitors in like, kind of like sleazy legal type ways.

• 20:11David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 20:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Which is just like suing them for kind of dubious reasons.

• 20:16David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 20:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  And like costing them money.

• 20:20David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 20:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  But then also like drawing attention from regulators away from like your entity, your organization and towards the other entity. So this is the charge so far. Is this correct?

• 20:30David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 20:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's like videos to support this. Is this?

• 20:34David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I've watched some of these videos and like it's a combination of these videos and this fact that this law firm does indeed own, like it used to own over 1% of all AVAX tokens and now owns less. But then also, you know, we would assume it also goes with Ava Labs Capital as well. And so like, there's just like a lot of dots that all seem to line up to support these claims. Now, there is some skepticism to the legitimacy of this website that we're looking at in the first place. We'll get to that at the end, but let's continue into the story. The concept, why this works is like, kind of like an exploit of the American legal system using class actions. In which, you know, class actions can claim to be representing groups of people who they claim to be harmed.

• 21:19David Hoffman?

  So like Roche Friedman says, "I represent the token holders of Solana and Solana is actually illegal security and Solana went down in price. And so because I'm going to represent Solana holders, I'm going to sue this Solana foundation, regardless of whether Roche Friedman actually is a Solana holder or cares about Solana holders, or actually believes the thing that he's saying." So for example, they actually did file a lawsuit against the Definity Foundation, essentially parroting the false claims of Arkham Intelligent. I don't know who that is. The purpose is to damage the reputation of their targets and surround their brands in FUD. And so also importantly, once Roche Friedman goes into litigation against a target, one of their enemies, the so-called, they can harvest and collect confidential information, which they are using them, using in legal.

• 22:03David Hoffman?

  Discovery and then they can pass that discovery phase information over to Ava Labs. So Ava Labs can see what Definity is doing. Like it's like espionage or like spy stuff. It's ridiculous.

• 22:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is like corporate, um, legal, like sleaze type stuff.

• 22:19David Hoffman?

  Really is. Really is.

• 22:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's allegedly going on.

• 22:23David Hoffman?

  That's allegedly going on, yeah. So, uh, last little bit here. Roche Rehman can spend a few million dollars litigating against an Ava Labs competitor and lose the case and still come out on top if their actions harm or suppress a blockchain that competes with Avalanche. Since their actions may drive the price of AVAX significantly higher, such that the size of their solings, then they can make a substantial profit. And so Kyle Roche issued a response in his Medium article that basically says that like this is all fake. He says, "A posting on recently launched anonymous crypto leaks website about me, my firm and Ava Labs contain numerous unsourced false statements and illegally obtained, highly edited video clips that are not presented with accurate context.

• 23:05David Hoffman?

  These videos were recorded without my consent during private meetings with Christian Ager Hansen, whom I now know works for Dominic Williams, the creator of ICP token. And the defendant is a high-profile securities fraud litigation my firm brought against him. Mr. Ager Hansen requested a meeting with me under false pretenses of venture capital investment in a technology startup, but his real motives are now clear to deceive and entrap me. When I agreed to the meeting, I was unaware that Mr. Ager Hansen specializes in what he calls conflict management for eccentric billionaires like Mr. Williams, where he uses illegal and underhanded means, including covert recordings and social engineering to solve their legal issues." Basically Kyle saying like, like, yeah, this guy.

• 23:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  I was framed.

• 23:47David Hoffman?

  I was framed, yeah. But also like, if you do watch the videos, like, yeah, like I also, if I was Kyle, would not want those videos to go public. So we're not going to play these videos. You can go link them into the show notes. Also, a tweet from Emin of Avalanche, uh, who says, "How can anyone believe something so ridiculous as the conspiracy theory nonsense on crypto leaks? We would never engage in the unlawful, unethical, just plain wrong behavior claimed in these self-serving." Videos and inflammatory articles. Our team and tech speak for themselves. There's also some interesting tweets cited by some people in the community below this one, where Emin is retweeting one of Kyle Roche's lawsuit against Tether and the manipulation

• 24:30David Hoffman?

  of cryptocurrency prices. And then another one, back in 2020, the Avalanche Twitter account and Avalanche blog makes a tweet citing "Introducing the initial litigation offering, bringing the $10 billion asset class of litigation financing to Avalanche and retail investors for the first time." Again, another like Roche, Kyle Roche law firm like partnership with Ava Labs. So like the part in this partnership and this weird like litigation fascination with Avalanche has a history. And so that's one of these dots that are being played out. Here's Ari Pauls, Ari David Paul, who is the CIO of Block Tower Capital, unrelated to all parties. So like kind of a neutral onlooker. And he is reading this case and his take is that I assume it's correct and it's as bad as

• 25:13David Hoffman?

  his looks. Fits with everything I've seen previously from both Suriya and Roche, from a lawyer swarmed on Roche a few weeks ago. Dumb version of mob lawyers, bottom of the barrel. Oof. But then he also continues further down and says, "I will say, some credible lawyers at Ava Labs I respect tell me Roche's claims are false. They can't slash won't share any evidence of that due to attorney client privilege. I don't know what evidence they could have absence of a private conversation, but I respect them enough to A, believe they're not lying and B remain but and B remain open minded to see what evidence becomes available." And so, and also, this Crypto Leaks website is generally assumed by also neutral third party onlookers to be like a front for ICP, Definity.

• 25:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  What?

• 25:57David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Yeah. So apparently the Crypto Leaks website is like something that the ICP.

• 26:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  So this is not like an open source, like anonymous, someone trusted from the community. It's just, this also could be a large corporation behind this Crypto Leaks website and these could be just two crypto networks battling it back and forth covertly?

• 26:16David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 26:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  How dumb?

• 26:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is just

• 26:25David Hoffman?

  It is quite ridiculous.

• 26:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  Does this have a resolution in any way? It's like, it just seems like back and forth. It seems sketchy, unlike all sides concerned, possibly.

• 26:35David Hoffman?

  It's just like, this is some bear market stuff, you know? All lawyer ones like start slinging mud at each other during the bear market. And my take on this is that, you know, I was going down this rabbit hole to understand how to report on it, on it for this particular, uh, this particular, uh, story that we're talking about right now. And there's a, click on that link that I'm quote retreating, Ryan. There's this guy that tweets out a couple of screenshots, uh, from, uh, Ava Avalanche, like, you know, Twitter supporters, uh, and then this one Twitter account says, this, this is their intention to just make FUD. I believe Avalanche and Emin as the father of blockchain would never do such a thing. Their only goal is to prevent emergence of AVAX, but they are not and will not succeed. Fast forward to the next screenshot, copy and paste the same thing.

• 27:19David Hoffman?

  Fast forward to the next crypto Twitter account who's like supporting Avalanche, copy and paste the same thing. Like, this text is a little bit different, but it says, it says basically the same thing. Uh, and so like, and this goes, this reminds me of this, uh, article I wrote back in late 2020 about Avalanche and how they, uh, this is verified true, like this is, this is not like conspiracy, would pay, uh, like frog accounts, frog crypto Twitter accounts in AVAX tokens for engagement on crypto Twitter.

• 27:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Frog Twitter accounts are just like pseudo anonymous crypto accounts that tend to represent themselves as like frogs. And they seem like they're kind of bot controlled or robot controlled, right?

• 27:56David Hoffman?

  Yes, very like, uh, puppet, like sock puppet Twitter accounts that put on like both a Pepe frog, image, but also with like an avalanche hat. And they're like, oh, I'm an avalanche supporter, but like, there's just fake engagement and then

• 28:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  For social engineering purposes.

• 28:10David Hoffman?

  Social engineering, yeah. And like, we know this is true. There were chat rooms and then I wrote this story called On Frogs back in 2020 when I was going, my first war with the frogs of like, there's been like three now. And like there, you, there was actually just like concerted Telegram rooms where like you would post your engagement. It's like, oh, I, I made a tweet about Avalanche, here's my tweet. And then you would be given a tip in Back tokens like we know that this happened and and so like this culturally in my opinion is like very aligned like they're willing to play dirty and they always have and so

• 28:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Allegedly David, we don't know for sure, but you know what I gotta say that the the spidey sense that we've had about this sort of thing and I think like you've had when you see these like sock puppet accounts and it feels organized and it feels concerted and they're all chanting the same chant. The probably there've been like four times I've seen it like at a fever pitch. One is like chain link back in like 2019, 2020 and then that kind of died down. The other is avalanche, as you said. The the other is Danny Sesta.

• 29:18David Hoffman?

  Yeah, they he controlled the frogs for a while, too.

• 29:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  And he was a frog puppeteer and like we all know how that ended earlier this year. And the other was kind of like the Terra community and Do Kwan. And this felt like a lot of sock puppet accounts again, and I'm not sure that it that totally was, but like all of those communities, when you kind of dipped a toe in the water and you like put forward arguments. It just something felt off, something felt like not quite right, something felt rotten in those cases. And it turned out to be like, at least in two out of the four so far, things were kind of bad.

• 29:54David Hoffman?

  Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, I mean, doing there's like a deal with a devil that you make when you try and promote your blockchain and your asset. And without doing like the things that you should be doing, which is straight up innovative protocol engineering and you start like, you know, shooting people in the hamstrings in order to get ahead.

• 30:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, here's a call for everyone to get back to building.

• 30:18David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 30:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  And to stop with kind of the social shenanigans and stop with kind of the legal shenanigans because we are sick, I'm sick, I think you are sick of talking about it in the rollups, but that's what that was a big thing making waves this week, so we had to cover it. What else we got, David?

• 30:35David Hoffman?

  God, Michael Saylor is getting sued for tax fraud. So the District of Columbia. Is suing Michael Saylor for over a hundred million dollars of unreported income or untaxed income that should have been paid to the District of Columbia, but Michael Saylor claimed to be living in Florida when he was actually living in his very large apartment in the District of Columbia. So, yeah. So, Michael Saylor and his company facing legal accusations that led to systemic tax fraud and penalties that could amount to more than a hundred million dollars. Attorney General for Washington DC said in a statement

• 31:12David Hoffman?

  that Saylor has lived in the District of Columbia for more than a decade and has never paid local income taxes despite earning hundreds of million dollars in cash and MicroStrategy equity options over that period. And so there is a tweet, an actual tweet out from the District of Columbia Attorney General, yes, saying, "Today, we are suing Michael Saylor, a billionaire tech executive that has lived in DC for more than a decade, but has never paid any DC income income for tax fraud." Blah, blah, blah. "Saylor personally avoided more than 25 million dollars of DC taxes by pretending to be a resident of other jurisdictions with significantly lower personal income taxes." "MicroStrategy is also named as a defendant in this, Ryan, alleging that the firm conspired to help him evade taxes."

• 31:57David Hoffman?

  I mean, since Michael Saylor is the controlling owner of MicroStrategy, he can just tell MicroStrategy that that's how it's going to be.

• 32:05David Hoffman?

  And then, so a quote says, "Michael Saylor is going to have to probably peel off some Bitcoin, depending on where that Bitcoin is in the eventual judgment comes down. Almost nobody beats tax fraud allegations, but we'll see." There's a nearly 130,000 Bitcoins that MicroStrategy held as of June 30th and was purchased for an average price of $30,600 apiece. Bitcoin is now trading at below 20,000 by the close of New York Stock Trading Hours on Wednesday. And MicroStrategy also reported a net loss of 1.1 billion due to the drop in BTC price. And still, Saylor during their recent earnings call says that the company would seek to continue acquiring and holding Bitcoin long-term with no eventual plans of selling. And another quote from the article says, "Everyone knows he's long Bitcoin.

• 32:49David Hoffman?

  If Bitcoin continues to decline, MicroStrategy stock could go down by another 30% and get absolutely hammered. And at what point can you turn around to your shareholders with a straight face and say that you are not selling?" End quote. Oof. Oof. Oof.

• 33:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so I guess the summary is there could be some

• 33:08David Hoffman?

  Sell pressure.

• 33:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Sell pressure on Bitcoin, but of course

• 33:11David Hoffman?

  Michael Saylor's gotta pay taxes, yeah.

• 33:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, this has to get settled in court, so, right? This is a prosecutor going after a defendant. I'm sure Saylor will bring a case forward and the courts will decide whether this indeed was tax fraud or not. Hard for me to like, I mean, definitely could have happened. I could definitely see it happening, but also in our system, we have to obviously presume innocence. And the court systems are the things that decide the outcome here. So, you know.

• 33:41David Hoffman?

  Presuming, definitely presume innocence, of course. However, Michael Saylor, there's a quote from Tier 10K that says, "TLDR, Saylor pretended to live in Florida for taxes, but actually lived in DC. Frequent flexing on Facebook, private jet flight logs, and talking about tax evasion on podcasts got him nabbed by the feds." So yeah, Saylor was known to talk about like, all like, the tax evasion, tax.

• 34:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, that'll get ya.

• 34:05David Hoffman?

  Yeah, as a very public person, so, you know, there's always that rule that I like to live by, Ryan, is don't do more than one illegal thing at once. Otherwise you'll get nabbed for them all.

• 34:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  That is now recorded on a podcast, David. You're happy to know that. Here's somebody replying to this tweet. Noted, if committing a crime, don't talk about it on podcasts.

• 34:26David Hoffman?

  Don't talk about crimes on a podcast, yeah.

• 34:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, we'll try and apply this to my own life. That's what the poster says. Good lesson for us all there. Okay, Maker Drama, what is happening with Maker?

• 34:39David Hoffman?

  Trauma just keeps on coming.

• 34:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so Maker is a stablecoin. It is one to one pegged with the dollar, always has been, always will be, question mark? And this is what, so my following of this, I haven't read this summary from Greg here, which we're about to get into, is Rune Christensen, one of the founders of Maker and kind of representative of, you know, a core cohort of Maker, is really spooked and really freaked out by the recent tornado cash OFAC sanction action. And he's worried that the Current plan, which is backing DAI up by RWAs, real world assets, which has really been the strategy of multi-cladral DAI,

• 35:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  might not be resilient enough for nation-state level attack that he seems to think is like on its way or imminent. And so is his answer to this, again, David, I haven't read all the posts. I haven't gone into all the detail. Is his answer to this, we de-peg from the dollar? And so we no longer use the dollar as our unit of account? And we start to become a free-floating currency in order to get around this? Maybe use different collateral assets that aren't as real world dependent? Is that what's going on?

• 35:55David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so we could read this like 38 tweet thread, which I think really does a fantastic job summarizing the complete state of Maker Dow. Yeah. But like ultimately Rune Christensen just put forth what Greg DePrecio in his tweet thread calls a decently like radical plan such as de-pegging DAI. And so Greg says Rune's latest plans are nothing short of radical to de-peg DAI from the dollar and to push all core units and non-crypto vaults into the theoretical construct of meta DAOs, which has been part of Rune's endgame plan for a long time. He has the support of fellow futurists and the decentralists, which Greg has put Maker DAOs, like political parties into three camps. You've got the futurists, the decentralists, and then the centrists.

• 36:39David Hoffman?

  Maker, or Rune was definitely in the futurist camp, but this like, and like people like Amin Soleimani and Chris Black have found themselves in like the decentralist camp. It was like get rid of all real world assets and anything that's like, you know, potentially censorable like USDC. And so like Rune used to be a leader of the futurist camp, still is, but now has like taken a large leaf out of the decentralist camp to make Maker DAO more censorship resistant. So that's a quick TLDR of the state of Maker right now.

• 37:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's very strange that they've gone from like lending funds to like a Tesla subsidiary or something like this. And like lending funds to like banks in Pennsylvania to a reaction from the community to say like, let's get rid of real world assets entirely. Let's not even peg to the dollar.

• 37:33David Hoffman?

  Real world assets has been in Maker DAO's core ethos since day one.

• 37:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, right? Like, that has been the whole shift to multilateral to DAI and that, you know, shift, what Rune was a key part of that shift. So it's very interesting to see this emerging. And like, for my part, I don't know which party you would kind of represent, like the futurists, or the centralists, or the decentralists. I probably always viewed a bit more towards the decentralist side of things. But also, like, I was very glad that the multilateral DAI experiment was playing out. So I also very much valued kind of the the the centralists and the futurists approach that I was taking, because other projects have taken the decentralist type approach, where all of their collateral

• 38:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  is just like backed by ETH, and they've de-pegged, like RAI is an example of this. And that is a free-floating asset that you can purchase right now. It tries to dampen the volatility of ETH, but is incredibly decentralized relative to like DAI and the real-world asset-type strategy. So what like, what's your take on this?

• 38:45David Hoffman?

  Maker, the reason why there's three political parties is for good reason, like, they all have justifiable grounds to support the thing that they support. Well, this is, I'm just like shooting from the hip here, but like, why don't we fork Maker DAI and have the futurist Maker DAI, and the centrist Maker DAI, and the decentralist Maker DAI? And each one can produce their own stablecoin. They're like, we'll have to sacrifice that like net liquidity that we get from having one central stablecoin. But then we have like, the super decentralized, dollar-pegged DAI stablecoin. We have the futurist DAI, dollar-pegged DAI stablecoin, that's based off of real-world assets, that plays nice with nation-states and makes them happy. And like, we can make a version of Maker

• 39:27David Hoffman?

  DAI that corresponds to each one of these, like ethos. And I think there's also a world where we do that. And that actually, the MKR token is like the thing that's shared between all three of these models. So like, and you have like the MKR governance token, but then you have like three Maker DAI commercial banks that are governed by the same MKR token. That's like my quick take. I don't know how feasible that is.

• 39:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, that I think that is an interesting take and that indeed might be what happens. But you said it yourself, the sacrifice there is you lose the shared liquidity of DAI, which is incredibly important.

• 40:01David Hoffman?

  Kirk from Volt, from Volt Protocol, and he's a big fan of just like, we don't really get super robust stability until we have many stablecoins. And so like, having many options is good. And so there's also synergies that happens as a result of that, too.

• 40:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  So you create all of these options and then maybe you kind of like tokenize those options together into kind of one

• 40:23David Hoffman?

  Yeah, into a basket.

• 40:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  One basket, which becomes the stablecoin. Yeah. It's interesting. I do think all of these factions will play out to some extent, as they have already. David, what do we got coming up next?

• 40:34David Hoffman?

  Oh, my gosh, coming up next, new liquid staked ETH token on the scene. Got another competitor to Lido's staked ETH and Rocket Pool's RETH coming out from a big exchange. Wonder what exchange that is and how a rollup just made Ethereum seven times bigger. That's a big number, seven Ethereum's. We also got Facebook and Instagram expanding their NFT offerings, which, you know, usually is like a big headline. And so we'll get into that as well, but also I think a really funny story, it's not that big of a headline, but funny story. Crypto.com accidentally sends $10 million instead of $100 to an Australian woman. Woman and Ryan, guess, guess who's got a new house? The Australian woman's got a new house. So all these stories and more. After we talk to some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible.

• 41:19David Hoffman?

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• 42:02David Hoffman?

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• 42:46David Hoffman?

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• 43:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, guys, we are back. A new liquid staking token is on the scene. That is staked ETH, but liquid. So you can do all the things that you do with the staked ETH token that you do with ETH itself. Coinbase is the one doing this right now. David, what are the details here?

• 43:25David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I mean, it's pretty straightforward. CBEETH alongside our ETH from Rocketpool and staked STEETH from Lido, we now got CBEETH. I think this is the first significant staked ETH derivative token from a centralized exchange. So that also enters the world of DeFi. Staked ETH derivative tokens in DeFi now coming from Coinbase. It is important to note that Coinbase charges a whopping 25% of your staking fees if you stake with Coinbase. And so if you buy this CBEETH in DeFi, you're implicitly paying that percentage. And so the yields on these things, because there's going to be a yield war right on these staked ETH derivative tokens. Like, you know, who is going to be able to inject the most yield into their staked ETH token? 25% fee on this one.

• 44:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And here's a Doane Analytics board about this. So there is 654,000 CB ETH so far right now. So that is about a billion in market cap. That's a ton. And so are you worried, David, that like, you know, the centralized exchanges will come? Like, they are the liquidity engines of the entire market because they have the gateway to fiat, unlike many of like the Rocket Pool doesn't have that, for example. Are you worried that something like CB ETH is going to take from, just using raw kind of liquidity power of its stake derivative token, take from all of the centralized, you know, options and from solo stakers?

• 44:54David Hoffman?

  I don't know. I do always believe that the Ethereum ecosystem has like the natural antibodies to resist centralization like this. Dan Ellser, when he wrote this piece, "The Death of Ethereum", the D E T H of Ethereum, the delegated ETH, was predicting this stuff like this would emerge eventually. And he was totally right. So like, it's actually kind of cool to be able to fast forward like two, three years after he wrote that article. It's like, oh, here we are. I mean, the 25% fee versus Lido's 10% and Rocket Pool's 15%. That's got to mitigate that somehow. And also, like, if Rocket Pool had a bug and we lost all the ETH, like, that's a protocol. So like, no one's really coming to save you if that ETH

• 45:38David Hoffman?

  gets locked. If Coinbase has a bug and like depositors lose their ETH, like, I bet you Coinbase is going to pay, figure out how to pay back those, that lost funds. And so like, there's probably some implied like insurance mechanisms based into some of these centralized ones that are pretty compelling. I don't really know, but I'm happy to see there's more competition on the market per usual.

• 45:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so am I. I'm happy to see the competition. You know, part of me wonders if we won't just have another lesson to learn in crypto, like some of these derivative staking, centralized derivative staking tokens will become like very big. And then at one point, something bad will happen.

• 46:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  The bad scenarios in our episode with Justin Drake earlier this week, right? So maybe there's a social slashing type event. Maybe one of these, the staking of this exchange goes down. Maybe they start like censoring transactions. Maybe they like straight up lose their keys, right? Not your keys, not your crypto, right? So any CBE that you're purchasing, essentially the backing of that ETH, it's an IOU for an ETH that is held by Coinbase. So it's not at all the same risk profile than ETH. And I guess all this to say, I think investors will, and you know, holders will probably make the classic mistake of they'll, they'll look at the rewards

• 47:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  and they'll look at the UX and the ease of use, but they'll forget, they'll forget about the risk side of the equation because risk is very hard to measure. And there are a lot of risks that go hand in hand with using a centralized staking provider to stake your ETH. And the only time we really recognize our, the, the risks is when something like Celsius happens.

• 47:19David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 47:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Or 300's capital, or like, like the Terra Luna fiasco. And then we're like, oh, okay, this is why we need decentralization.

• 47:26David Hoffman?

  Ah, right. Now we remember.

• 47:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  The decentralization thing, I forgot. That is my worry, but I do think over time, like over the long, long run, we'll have a good balance of centralized and decentralized staking providers. And I think that episode with Justin gave me more hope on that. Speaking of more hope, scalability on the way. We teased this a few times, but Ethereum just got a 7X upgrade. Okay, this is an episode we did earlier this week. Arbitrum released Nitro, which their original Arbitrum rollup, Arbitrum 1 rollup, was one ETH worth of space capacity, you can think of it that way. And Nitro, just 7X that. So now we get seven Ethereum's in Nitro. David, how do they do that? And what's kind of the news?

• 48:11David Hoffman?

  They do that the way that we always make all transactions cheaper on blockchains is through compression. Magic developer compression technology that's like outside of my brain. But basically they, they went from one Ethereum worth of scale to seven Ethereum's. This is like a very rough way of like explaining these things. Is directionally correct. And basically, that means that they figured out how to compress a Arbitrum transaction or a bundle of Arbitrum transaction seven times more previous than versus previous. And so now there's just like a smaller per transaction footprint on the Ethereum layer one, which translates into cheaper gas costs on the Arbitrum layer two.

• 48:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  Absolutely. We did an episode, if you're looking for all the details behind that, we did an episode earlier this week that you can access on the bankless feed, of course. David, optimism, no slouch either, they are just hitting all time highs, I think, in their metric of gas used, that is, block space used, compute used on optimism as well. So it's not just Arbitrum is heating up, optimism as well.

• 49:09David Hoffman?

  Yeah, all time high usage of optimism. Like, I've said it a bajillion times before, you've said it too, like, all of the ingredients for a layer two summer, a layer two season is like, here.

• 49:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  You can't say summer anymore. That's putting a timeline on it.

• 49:24David Hoffman?

  Yeah, well, no, it's just summer is like growth period, it's like blossoming period.

• 49:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's more of an analogy.

• 49:30David Hoffman?

  We're going into like, we're going into winter in the upper hemisphere, but we're going into summer in the bottom hemisphere. Crypto exists in both hemispheres. Anyways, optimism usage, all time high, Arbitrum Nitro on the scene. The Arbitrum community is absolutely stoked about Nitro. You can just feel it in the chat, in the YouTube chat. And so like, the blossoming of layer twos continues to blossom, once again.

• 49:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  There's a data giant, I don't know if you saw this, but a cloud data provider called Hertzner, I believe.

• 50:02David Hoffman?

  Never heard of it before.

• 50:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I have not either, but apparently it's very large. They just banned all Ethereum nodes. So you can no longer run an Ethereum node in the Hertzner cloud. This is, I guess, like a mini Amazon Web Services or something, like banning Ethereum nodes. And I guess they said not permitted. Using our products for any application related to mining, even remotely related, is not permitted, Hertzner said in a message to its customers. Even if you just run one node, we consider it a violation of our terms of service. They're taking a hard stance against anything crypto inside of their cloud. I have no idea where that's coming from. Maybe they're worried about sanctions, David? I don't know the details.

• 50:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  But I guess one take is, good for decentralization? It'll get some of our nodes out of these cloud service providers. What's your take?

• 50:56David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I don't really think these stories mean much. I was doing a call with Coinbase, one of their like education, education calls, and somebody asked this question about like, is this bad? And like, this is also a conversation on Twitter. It's like, is it bad that we have a ton of nodes in like cloud infrastructure? And in my mind, like, though, like, if you host a node in a cloud infrastructure, it like, it's the most meaningless kind of node possible. Like, why do we run nodes in the cloud? It's because the cloud gives you the easiest and cheapest computer. If you need to run a node, you can either like, go to the store, buy a computer, build a computer, host one yourself, and like, keep it up and running in your own apartment, or you can go to AWS and run a node there. It's always going to be easier to do it in the cloud, no matter what your cloud service provider is. But it's always, it's also therefore

• 51:40David Hoffman?

  the most inconsequential. So if it goes down, you either just go to another cloud server, or if all of cloud servers go down and they just outright ban all of Ethereum stuff, then you go and build your own node. And so it's the same concept of like, water flows downhill, and nodes will be spun up on the infrastructure that's easiest to spin them up on, just to make development easier. But that doesn't actually mean if you, if there are like, if they, say, say, Ryan, there's about like 10,000 Ethereum nodes out there, maybe 20,000. Maybe we add on like 20, 200,000 Ethereum nodes on AWS. That has no meaningful consequence on the direction of the Ethereum blockchain. That doesn't give Jeff Bezos any undue control. It just means we have a ton of nodes in AWS.

• 52:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and if he bans them all, we just route around him.

• 52:24David Hoffman?

  We just route around him. And like, if Jeff Bezos is like, oh, all of these nodes that are in AWS, I want them to listen to the OFAC chain of Ethereum. Well, those are meaningless nodes, because the more meaningful nodes are the ones that are run by individual community members that are, are just like, inside of your own homes. Those are the more valuable versions of nodes.

• 52:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  And even if you went to the worst case scenario where all of the cloud providers together colluded, which is like, very improbable, that they all colluded and they said, no Ethereum inside of our cloud infrastructure. It would be a pain in the ass. It would be like a UX

• 52:57David Hoffman?

  It would slow down development.

• 52:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Problem temporarily. It would slow us down, but then we'd route around. We'd use decentralized networks. We'd use like IPFS. We'd use like BitTorrent type, P2P type technology. And the network would still continue until they relaxed their policies.

• 53:13David Hoffman?

  You can, of course, always go to ethereumnodes.com and see just a list of publicly available Ethereum nodes that you can hook into at any time that you want.

• 53:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  I basically, I think, David, they'll be forced to reverse this kind of thing because the greatest defense that crypto has and will always have is the value it brings to the world, the utility.

• 53:31David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 53:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right? And so, um, once it would start, that utility starts to kick in, then, uh, Hertzner is going to reverse their decision and be like, oh, we like NFTs. Oh, we have to run Ethereum nodes in order to have all of these, you know, um, all of our customers who want NFT infrastructure. Okay. We've reversed that decision. I mean, that's, that's how it happens.

• 53:50David Hoffman?

  That's my take on this is like, somebody just saw like OFAC Ethereum and then they're like, are we exposed to this? And then they say, oh, we are exposed to this. You know what we should do? Ban Ethereum. And like, they put that much thought into it.

• 54:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, exactly. Uh, Vitalik maybe put a lot of thought into the book that he is releasing. By the way, this book is on its way to my house, David. If you've got your copy.

• 54:10David Hoffman?

  I haven't got my copy yet, no.

• 54:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's called Proof of State. This is Vitalik's first book. I think this is like a rehash of, of many things that he's written. It's kind of co-written with him and another writer who's taken some of his work, but I think Vitalik's goal here is to actually, um, you know, talk to kind of the, the philosophy of crypto and the blockchain, as he does so often on his blog and not talk so much about like, kind of the, the price and other things. Uh, so I'm looking forward to getting this, but he just released a digital copy, NFT copy with all of the proceeds going to Gitcoin. I think there's been like 100 ETH or something raised so far.

• 54:47David Hoffman?

  Wow.

• 54:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Not sure what the latest is.

• 54:49David Hoffman?

  It's great.

• 54:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  But pretty impressive.

• 54:51David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we were making that joke the other, the first time this was announced that like all this Ethereum merge thing is for, for Vitalik to be able to sell his book. It's a terrible, terrible joke. Uh, I did ask Vitalik, hey, Vitalik, you want to come on Bankless? We can talk about your book. And he's like, well, The book is just like an aggregation of everything I've talked on Bake List over the last like 15 episodes I've been on. So, but of course, I'm still gonna buy it. I'm not gonna not buy Vitalik's book.

• 55:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Obviously. Instagram, David. Facebook and Instagram are allowing the posting of NFTs. I think this is in some specific areas, but this is Meta continuing progress on adoption of NFTs. Any thoughts on this?

• 55:29David Hoffman?

  I still haven't seen usage of it inside my corner of Instagram.

• 55:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  They're just testing it with some select US creators right now.

• 55:37David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so, yeah.

• 55:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  You're waiting?

• 55:40David Hoffman?

  Wait until the usage.

• 55:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  You're waiting for the usage?

• 55:43David Hoffman?

  Waiting for the usage.

• 55:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is what it looks like. I'm showing a screenshot here. I'm just sold an NFT. This is an NFT, I guess, on Instagram.

• 55:50David Hoffman?

  You know, all I really see is just like a bunch of surface area for NFT haters to hate more on NFTs.

• 55:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wow, that's another subject. And it reminds me of our next like link here, which is Reddit just launched their NFTs. But notably, the term "NFT" is not mentioned.

• 56:05David Hoffman?

  Yeah, smart decision. Well, so- All of a sudden, everyone loves NFTs if we just stop calling them NFTs.

• 56:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Do NFTs have a very bad name at this point? They're almost like, I feel like they're like ICOs where in 2017, except in a broader audience, because ICOs didn't get very broad.

• 56:24David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 56:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  But NFTs went on Jimmy Fallon, went completely mainstream, and now suddenly, everyone hates them. Why do you think that is? Just price?

• 56:36David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it's like, it's like that in-group, out-group thing, like why are people spending $10,000 on like a monkey instead of a, instead of like normal stuff? And also, just like, I will always say that when there is NFT hate, it's because we, as an industry, haven't created NFT, either the NFT that that person wants specifically for them, or the form factor isn't right yet. Like, all of these free NFTs or NFTs that you like naturally accrue in your like gaming app that aren't labeled as NFTs are going to win hearts and minds as soon as we figure out how to make those damn things.

• 57:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Because the brand of NFT is down bad. You know, I saw, speaking of Reddit, I saw a Reddit post, and I just like clicked in it because it was like interesting title to me. It was, "What's the most annoying way to start a sentence?" Was the prompt, right? And so, all of the Redditors like replied with their response. And one of the most like upvoted one was this. You start a sentence with this. "As an NFT owner, I think that..."

• 57:34David Hoffman?

  See, in the future, the statement "as an NFT owner" is gonna make very little sense, because NFT is just a form factor. It's just a file standard.

• 57:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh my god, if you replied that in that thread, you would have been downvoted so hard, David.

• 57:47David Hoffman?

  There's a reason why I don't engage in like, I don't try and defend NFTs on Reddit, Ryan. I have better things to do with my time.

• 57:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, but I also think that some people are kind of rebelling or reacting to the way they've experienced NFTs from like, NFT bros or like influencers who've tried to show them things. And so, this is all part of the visceral reaction.

• 58:08David Hoffman?

  Yep.

• 58:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  This too show pass, let's go to Ticketmaster. What are they up to, David?

• 58:12David Hoffman?

  Also using NFTs in the Flow blockchain to let event organizers issue NFTs tied to tickets. Now, I do think this means that the NFTs themselves are tickets, but they can also be other things as well. Simply like just memorabilia, or like a ticket stub, or something to commemorate the event. You know, I was thinking about this, Ryan. I, we've, me definitely have been highly critical of Flow as a blockchain, because it's just like the ripple of NFTs, they're highly centralized. But I actually don't hate this use case for the Flow blockchain.

• 58:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Neither do I, man. I don't hate it.

• 58:46David Hoffman?

  I think this one is like...

• 58:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't even hate NBA top shots on Flow. I don't hate any of it.

• 58:51David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, like, assets like a CryptoPunk or like a Bored Ape need to be on Ethereum, because those are very close to like financial assets with a lot of capital. But like, blockchains are host data now and for and forever. And I'm not sure that like, ticket information...

• 59:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  I don't want tickets on mainnet Ethereum, do you?

• 59:11David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I don't think that makes a ton of sense. So this use case of Flow does make sense to me.

• 59:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think these are great use cases for like, you know, sidechains and like, even chains like, we're talking about Arbitrum Nova, which don't use Ethereum as a data availability layer and are far cheaper. Or even like, centralized, I guess like centralized databases, right? I mean, that's kind of what this is. But at some level though, at some point, you start to get where the chain itself is so centralized and so closed, that it's just kind of like, why do it anyway? Why is it blockchain anyway? Why not just have a database? So, I'm not sure where that line is, but...

• 59:51David Hoffman?

  That's a good point.

• 59:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, there's something there. All right. Do you remember the Goose NFT?

• 59:56David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 59:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's the Art Blocks NFT.

• 59:58David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that was sold for like $5.3 million, I think, to Three Ours Capital.

• 1:00:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. Yes. And I think Suzu had the famous tweet, "Our thesis is, it looks like a goose."

• 1:00:10David Hoffman?

  No, the thesis is, "We like the goose."

• 1:00:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  "We like the goose." Yes. That's the exact quote. And it does look like a goose.

• 1:00:16David Hoffman?

  It definitely looks like a goose, that's for sure.

• 1:00:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Genius. This is amazing. This is the future.

• 1:00:21David Hoffman?

  You know what that's worth? $5.5 million because it looks like a goose.

• 1:00:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wow. I wonder what it's worth now. I guess the goose was just sold a year ago on the 27th.

• 1:00:31David Hoffman?

  To Three Ours Capital.

• 1:00:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  To Three Ours Capital, and now it's part of a bankruptcy liquidation process.

• 1:00:37David Hoffman?

  So people are speculating that's actually going to go for more than $5.2 million.

• 1:00:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh my god, are you kidding me?

• 1:00:42David Hoffman?

  Yeah, just because of the story.

• 1:00:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  I can't even.

• 1:00:44David Hoffman?

  It's now like, it's just like instantiated in people's brains. It's very legendary at this time.

• 1:00:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  This is what, the goose took the trillion dollar hedge, or the, you know, $20 billion hedge fund down. Maybe that's the story.

• 1:00:56David Hoffman?

  The fund of just straw that broke Three Ours Capital's back. The goose that broke Three Ours Capital's back. Beautiful.

• 1:01:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  See, now you're feeding into it. You just made it more valuable. Good job, dude.

• 1:01:05David Hoffman?

  Totally.

• 1:01:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  In interesting news on the regulatory side, the FBI just issued a warning over vulnerable DeFi platforms. And they outlined three specific attack vectors. And they cited the $1.3 billion in crypto that was stolen just the first quarter of this year. So this is the FBI, David, saying, "Guys, get your stuff together."

• 1:01:29David Hoffman?

  You're making our jobs hard.

• 1:01:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  You're making our jobs hard. And also, like, basically, America's enemies, like, are taking this money. What percentage of GDP do you think North Korea made on crypto hacks last year? What percent of their GDP?

• 1:01:46David Hoffman?

  Minimum double digits.

• 1:01:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right?

• 1:01:49David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, that's incredible. So you can, you can understand where they're coming from.

• 1:01:53David Hoffman?

  How much does North Korea make money? How do they, what's their, what's the North Korean business model?

• 1:01:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  There is not much coming in. I mean, it's all kind of like, um, you know, raw, like materials, like, um, physical materials and this sort of thing, right? Sadly, uh, it's definitely not coming in from other sources. And so the FBI said, here are some attack vectors, DeFi, you should watch out for. Flash loans, watch out for those. And they name a project, Project BZX, where thieves got $55 million, exploiting a vulnerability in DeFi's, uh, in token bridges, such as the Nomad Token Bridge, or manipulating cryptocurrency prices by exploiting oracles. Like, this is the FBI getting into the details. They just described a flash loan attack,

• 1:02:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  a bridge attack, and an oracle attack here. And I understand, so I guess what I would say is, I very much understand where, um, the executive branch is coming from in these types of things, because they're having to clean up, they're having to be the enforcement when things get stolen in the real world and go like, this is, this is, this is who, the DeFi companies, the bridges got attacked. They're calling the FBI and saying, hey, can you help us, guys? Like criminals made off with our money. And the FBI is like, what are you doing? You left the doors open.

• 1:03:15David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Get your stuff together.

• 1:03:17David Hoffman?

  This is, kind of goes back to our conversation of like, we need like new internet police. Like new, we need like the, the white hat.

• 1:03:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  That sounds scary.

• 1:03:26David Hoffman?

  It does sound scary. We need like the white hat version of like the Lazarus Group. So like, oh, the Lazarus Group just hacked that bridge? Well, we need like the unlazarus, the Lazarus undoers to like go hack the Lazarus Group to get our funds back. Like, we need something like that.

• 1:03:39Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and we need like.

• 1:03:41David Hoffman?

  Internet Avengers.

• 1:03:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  More robust code as well, Internet Avengers. Yeah, that sounds way better.

• 1:03:45David Hoffman?

  Sam's son would be, uh, would be on there, yeah.

• 1:03:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, give us the story.

• 1:03:49David Hoffman?

  Oh God, this is hilarious. Okay. Crypto, the Crypto.com 10.5 million dollar accident. So Crypto.com accidentally transferred, transferred 10.5 million dollars to a woman instead of a hundred dollars to the woman, uh, who used. Customer of crypto.com asked for a hundred dollar refund, which they just happily like refunded her, but they instead refunded her 10.5 million dollars instead of 100 dollars. What happened was that they accidentally entered her account number into the payment field rather than the refund amount and then hit send. And of course, you know, irreversible blockchain transactions, this is how this happens. And so after, and that was seven months ago, that happened seven months ago and they didn't realize it.

• 1:04:32David Hoffman?

  So for seven months, this lady received 10.5 million dollars. And you know what she did with that money, Ryan?

• 1:04:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm sure she gave it all back to crypto.com the moment she received it.

• 1:04:43David Hoffman?

  I'm sure she did not do that. So what she actually did was bought a 1.35 million, four-bedroom property in Melbourne and then smartly immediately transferred the ownership of that property to her own sister who lives in Malaysia, which has made it extremely difficult for crypto.com to get their money back. Because she like quickly bought a house and then transferred ownership of that house to somebody who's like irrelevant. And so like, I'm sure this lady's gonna get in trouble. Like, yeah, like you, that's, I'm sorry, no, like, and that's money, this is not yours. But she bought a house and gave it to someone. And so like, now they have to go undo that,

• 1:05:25David Hoffman?

  which I, that has to go to courts and I don't really know how that's gonna unfold.

• 1:05:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  A bank has made an error in your favor, collect 10.5 million dollars. And then go buy a mansion with it and give it to your sister. Wow.

• 1:05:41David Hoffman?

  That's so funny. All right, quick rebrand in the Orca Protocol world. Orca Protocol is now Metropolis and they are opening up their pods for beta access. I did a layer zero with Julia Rosenberg about Orca, now Metropolis, and about how Orca, now Metropolis, allows DAOs to become modular. So Ryan and I believe that the future of blockchains are modular blockchains. And I also believe that the future of DAOs are modular DAOs rather than monolithic DAOs. And Metropolis, Metropolis Protocol is pioneering this future. So they are now having a rebrand and they are open for beta.

• 1:06:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Very cool. Metropolis, like the, like the city, I guess.

• 1:06:20David Hoffman?

  Cities, yeah.

• 1:06:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Moving on to raises, you know, proof. So this is Kevin Rose's initiative around the proof collective and the

• 1:06:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Moonburst community.

• 1:06:32David Hoffman?

  Yeah, the one, the one that's behind your head right now?

• 1:06:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes, the one that's behind my head right now. They just raised $50 million from A16Z and many more. I feel like at some point in time, we're going to have to get caught up with Kevin Rose to see what they are doing with all of this funding. But I think they're going big on this stuff, creating an entire ecosystem, creating like entirely new worlds around proof. And I'm pretty excited to see what they, what they deliver, what they build.

• 1:07:00David Hoffman?

  And I feel like, thank God, we have Kevin Rose building out this frontier of what you can do in this corner of like the Web3 universe, like a real use case for NFTs with real value. Cause he knows what he's doing and he's putting all of his energy behind it. Like this isn't just like a side project. He's intentfully like building out, he's like, he's pioneering this, this frontier single-handedly. And I thank him for that service.

• 1:07:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Totally good. All right, Reddit, do you know Alexis Ohanian? I guess now we just, we just talked about DIG, now we have to talk about Reddit, huh? Alexis Ohanian, he just raised $177 million crypto fund. So this is all going to crypto. The quote says, "Now is potentially a unique opportunity to invest in strong founders at a discount." This is from Alexis Ohanian and their marketing material.

• 1:07:54David Hoffman?

  I love that he says, "A unique opportunity to invest in strong founders at a discount." Because back at the top of the market in 2021, like the favor was definitely in the hands of founders and like, "Give me all of your money, VCs, because you're totally going to give it all to me." And now the tide, the tables have turned very much in favor of VCs with capital. And so that leads us into the next raise with Genesis raising $500 million. Galaxy and Genesis execs raised $500 million because, you know, power is in the hands of the VCs. And so there's still plenty of private money out there going into crypto startups.

• 1:08:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, this, I mean, very, very good strategy, obviously, for VCs to raise during the bull market and then deploy during the bear market. And of course, that's a good strategy for you too, retail investor, like if you're Thinking about these markets, right? Better to buy during the dip or when things are quiet than by the top. David, got to talk about jobs. This is our opportunity, your opportunity, I should say, if you're listening to Bankless, to go get a job in crypto. We've got the jobs board here from Bankless. I'm going to read out a few jobs. Number one, from Superform, a senior backend engineer. Bitgreen, a full-stack developer, oh my God, David has lights this time, a software engineer.

• 1:09:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Market data at Messari, another software engineer over media, D Y D X, needs a backend software engineer, Stakefish, an HR business partner, what's that David? Back-end engineer, full-stack software engineer at Stakefish, a frontend and a dev ops engineer at Stakefish 2. Bankless needs somebody over media operations, doing podcasts and such. Boardroom Labs needs a software engineer over DAO governance. Go get a job in crypto. Now's your opportunity. We will include a link to the Bankless job boards. You can subscribe to the job boards and get these delivered to you on a daily, weekly basis. We will remind you every week as well, in the meanwhile, until you get a job in crypto. And then we'll continue to say it, won't we?

• 1:09:57David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we will. Get two jobs in crypto. Start another podcast in crypto.

• 1:10:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  What do we got next, David?

• 1:10:03David Hoffman?

  Coming up next, questions from the nation. Lots of ETH staking questions. So if you have questions about ETH staking, maybe this is one of yours. And also, an interesting question. What about Bitcoin maxis do we agree with? Yeah. And then, of course, following that, some hot takes from crypto Twitter. So stay tuned for all of that and more. But first, we're going to talk to some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible.

• 1:10:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, guys, we are back. As a reminder, if you have a question for David and myself, you can ask that question. Follow Bankless HQ. We tweet out a question every Wednesday. Reply to that tweet. Get your question answered. This is the first one from avi gupta dot ETH. When I, it's a staking question, David. When I stake via all these providers like Lido Finance and Stakewise, who am I trusting my ETH with? And can my ETH get slashed? David, who is Avi trusting when he is staking his ETH with Lido and Stakewise?

• 1:10:55David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so not your keys, not your crypto, and not your keys, not your validator. And so when you stake with Lido, you're staking the Lido system, the Lido DAO. And so your ETH in Lido specifically goes into one of 24 validators. And if, also, I guess gets commingled with all the other depositors. But say, for example, like one of the Lido validators, one of the 24 of them gets slashed holistically. Like they lose all of that ether, then I guess like Lido becomes like under collateralized by one 24th. Stake wise, like I'm sure they have like a network of validators too. But basically you're giving up your rights as a validator, your ability to sign messages to whoever you trust. So if you stake your ether with Coinbase, you're trusting Coinbase.

• 1:11:40David Hoffman?

  If you're staking with ether with Stakewise, you're trusting Stakewise. If you stake your ether with Rocketpool, you're trusting the Rocketpool protocol. And so can your ETH get slashed is like, well, that's up to the facts and circumstances of every single provider. Anyone can get slashed for all of the reasons that one would get slashed. It's definitely not something that is like accidental. Like you are either trying to attack Ethereum and you're double signing blocks and that'll get you slashed.

• 1:12:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's a big slash.

• 1:12:05David Hoffman?

  That's a big slash. You don't just accidentally do that. You know, like, oh, I think I'm an accidentally.

• 1:12:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  It can happen if people like misconfigure their networks badly enough. That's when it can happen. I've seen that happen.

• 1:12:15David Hoffman?

  But that's also extremely avoidable, right? That's the idea of like, you have a redundant computer to start signing messages if your first computer goes down. But the risk of that, the reward of that is like not that much. It's just like minimizing downtime.

• 1:12:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hopefully, none of these stackers, stakers would do that and they're all professionals, but it could happen. That's one risk.

• 1:12:34David Hoffman?

  And so like, yes, technically it can get slashed. It would probably be just negligence or just something, some crazy black swan accident by one of these stake providers. But technically you're out of control for that. I wouldn't be too worried about that risk.

• 1:12:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  One interesting slash condition though, that Justin Drake mentioned on the call is kind of the, or on our episode earlier this week, is kind of that idea of social slashing. So let's say a whole bunch of stakers that you were staking with decided to censor transactions, right? Well, then if the Ethereum community. Any kind of like forked onto an uncensored version of Ethereum. You might want to withdraw your deposits from that, from that staking pool.

• 1:13:15David Hoffman?

  But I think you would, you would see that coming from so far away.

• 1:13:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, you would.

• 1:13:19David Hoffman?

  You would hear about like, you would hear me and Ryan.

• 1:13:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Unless you were in a cave, like you just left it there for a couple of years, that sort of thing. David, this next question is from eight hyphen L.

• 1:13:30David Hoffman?

  You're gonna pronounce that.

• 1:13:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  I tried, I tried eight hyphen L dot E. What would a home staker have to do on a practical level to be slashed? I thought the recommended client software didn't censor by default, thus not be something to worry about. And are you solar stakers or plan to become? Question mark.

• 1:13:49David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so as a home staker, what do you have to do to get slashed? The most likely event is when the one I talked about where you like, you have your computer, you have your validator and it's staking as it should. And then you want to get like fancy with it and you want to have a redundant computer with the same signing keys as the active computer. And you have it configured so that the active computer, if like the internet cuts out or like loses power or whatever. Then the, the standby computer notices that the active computer is offline. And so then the standby computer goes online and starts signing messages to maintain zero downtime. The risk here is that the standby computer comes online and the active computer is actually still online for whatever reason. And then you have two computers signing with the same messages and that will get you slashed. That's, we've seen that happen before.

• 1:14:34David Hoffman?

  There's definitely ways around this. Look at D V T technology from Obol and also just don't do it. Just take the penalty, just take the, the leakage penalty.

• 1:14:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Leakage penalty is so low.

• 1:14:45David Hoffman?

  It is equivalent to how much ether rewards you are making, but in the opposite direction. As opposed to getting slashed and getting penalized, instead of you just make a negative amount of yield. And so just like, just take, just take it, you're just like, you set yourself back a day, two days. And how long are you away from home? And it's not worth the extra risk. That's the most likely reason why you would get slashed.

• 1:15:08David Hoffman?

  This asker says, I thought the recommended client software didn't censor by default. Yes, all client software does not censor by default. You have to do something, you have to tinker with that client if you want to start censoring things. And that's going to be at an ad hoc basis. So yes, it's not something to worry about. Are we a solo staker or do we plan to become one? Bankless does stake. We stake with a friend of ours who is not located near us. They're at a different physical location. So I guess we're not solo stakers because me and Ryan stake together with the help of a friend. I travel a lot and Ryan has kids that might kick over his computer. So who knows?

• 1:15:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  I do actually plan to become a solo staker, David, though, on the other side of the merge, just like running a little bit. From the house, I think that's important. I want to, you know, test it myself. Another question on staking from Happy Joe at Happy Joe asks, if I have 64 ETH, do I get more yield by staking? Two times 32 ETH or one times 64 ETH? What's at the root of this question, David?

• 1:16:05David Hoffman?

  Yeah. So actually there is no such thing as one times 64 ETH. There is only units, discrete units of 32 Ether. So if you have 64 ETH or 96 Ether, you have, if you have 96 Ether, you have three validators. You don't make one validator with multiples of 32. You just spin up two validators. And so that is.

• 1:16:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  And when David says two validators, by the way, you can spin up many validators on the same machine. So he's not talking about like, oh, you have two pieces of.

• 1:16:34David Hoffman?

  One computer per validator. Could you imagine?

• 1:16:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  No. So, so you could have one computer, like my, my MacBook, my laptop could probably run, I don't know, hundreds of validators.

• 1:16:44David Hoffman?

  Yeah. I think a Raspberry Pi is considered pretty damn safe to 10, a 10 validators. So one Raspberry Pi can manage 320 ETH.

• 1:16:54Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right.

• 1:16:54David Hoffman?

  I think if you're on a MacBook Pro, like yo, you can like really juice that thing up.

• 1:16:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think people get confused about like the 64 ETH because when you deposit in like a staking provider like Coinbase, it feels like, oh, I'm giving 64 ETH into this thing and that.

• 1:17:09David Hoffman?

  Or 12 or arbitrary number.

• 1:17:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right. But behind the scenes, of course, Coinbase has to spin up as many validators as kind of divisible by, by 32. And the total amount of ETH divided by 32 is the number of validators they are running in the background.

• 1:17:23David Hoffman?

  Correct. Right. And like when you. Posit 16 ETH into Rocket Pool as a validator. 16 more ETH comes from other people to backfill that and then you get to 32, for example.

• 1:17:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yep.

• 1:17:35David Hoffman?

  So it's all 32 all the way down.

• 1:17:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  32, all the way down. It's like bits. All right. What are the things you agree with Bitcoin maxis on? This is timu.lens asking that question. David, do you agree with Bitcoin maxis on anything?

• 1:17:49David Hoffman?

  Yeah, quite a lot, right? It's like I agree with Bitcoiners have everything right on principle. Like our principles with what Bitcoin is, I think, is really, really aligned. That Venn diagram overlap is significant. It's the execution that we disagree on. So things like a self-sovereign monetary policy that humans don't tinker with. I want that. A calcified blockchain that doesn't change in the long term. I want that. You know, censorship resistance, I want that. All the same principles, we fundamentally agree with Bitcoiners. It's just like we disagree on how to actually apply that when it comes to a blockchain. So I think, you know, if you have a Bitcoin blockchain, you actually don't get censorship resistance

• 1:18:32David Hoffman?

  because you have to do financial activity at the centralized layer. Like there's no DeFi in Bitcoin. And so I disagree with how you actually achieve censorship resistance versus what Bitcoiners see. But the base principles are very, very aligned. I very much agree with them on most things in that camp.

• 1:18:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well said. I have nothing to add. I pretty much agree with all of that. And one thing I will say though is Vitalik has said before that Ethereum values are Bitcoin moderate values. Right? And I think that's an interesting take too. One maybe area of disagreement with Bitcoin maximus is because the question is specifically with Bitcoin maximus. They agree or they think that the only manifestation of this thing is Bitcoin. Right? And like that is the departure, I would say, from what you and I believe and what they believe. And they're not like, there's not the pragmatism, I would say, that there is in kind of the Ethereum community of like,

• 1:19:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  hey, there are different routes. To get there and some are some are more pragmatic and you know, not as cut and dry as Bitcoin was created by Satoshi. It's never changed, fully immutable, 21 million forever. Right? That's kind of like written in Bitcoin maximalist law. So the ideas are similar, but the I guess the manifestation of those ideas, the implementation of them are different.

• 1:20:00David Hoffman?

  Right. I'm reminded of that meme where it's that Star Trek meme where the lady is asking two dudes like, are you two friends? And the Bitcoiner is like, no. And the Ethereum is like, yes.

• 1:20:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  I totally agree with that. All right, David, some takes of the week. Why don't you read this first one from Gaspar?

• 1:20:16David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Good times create centralized projects. Centralized projects create bad times. Bad times creates decentralized products, projects. Decentralized projects create good times. I love this take. I thought this was so good. I feel like this is just really emblematic of the tail end of 2021, where a bunch of centralized products, projects which touted decentralization turned out to be centralized and created a bunch of bad times, Ryan. And I think you name the blockchain. What comes to mind?

• 1:20:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Terra, sir. Luna. That whole fiasco.

• 1:20:49David Hoffman?

  Created some bad times.

• 1:20:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, not only that, Theres Capital's big centralized kind of fund on Black Box, Celsius, you know, centralized lending provider.

• 1:20:59David Hoffman?

  Also touting decentralization, but was super duper centralized.

• 1:21:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yep. Some bad times. But on the back of this, it says, bad times create decentralized projects. Does that mean during the build market right now?

• 1:21:10David Hoffman?

  That's where we are. We are here.

• 1:21:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  We are here. Okay.

• 1:21:12David Hoffman?

  Bad times creating decentralized projects.

• 1:21:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm okay with being here for like a while. Like, I could spend a good year here before we get to like the good times.

• 1:21:21David Hoffman?

  Well, how long are we into this thing? Are we? Is that 2022?

• 1:21:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Six months.

• 1:21:26David Hoffman?

  Or second half of 2022?

• 1:21:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Um, I think stuff really started to go bad, you know, May of this year.

• 1:21:31David Hoffman?

  June? May, June?

• 1:21:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:33David Hoffman?

  Okay. So we're we're a little bit more than one quarter into it?

• 1:21:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, just a quarter. So I could I could spend like Five or six quarters here before I'm feeling a little restless.

• 1:21:42David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Or longer. I don't care.

• 1:21:46David Hoffman?

  I'm down to have a wintery winter, for sure.

• 1:21:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, that's cool. Uh, here's a take.

• 1:21:50David Hoffman?

  Maybe it's maybe because of this take. Brian, shout out to him, says 99% of the crypto industry is a joke, but the remaining 1% will change the world. First off, any thoughts on that take since it's yours? But also, why, uh, why?

• 1:22:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  I just wanted to say this. It's a bit of, um, you know, uh, of course, you know, the market cap of legitimate projects like Bitcoin, Ethereum, many other projects that we think are fully legitimate is greater than 1%, right?

• 1:22:18David Hoffman?

  Sure.

• 1:22:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  So there's a little bit of hyperbole here. But the reason I wanted to say this, 99% of the crypto industry is a joke, is I think that we should say that explicitly to lower the defenses of people who aren't on the inside of our industry, but are on the outside looking in. Like, the very first thing we should say is, guys, we acknowledge all of the scams, all of the shenanigans, all of the stupidity.

• 1:22:46David Hoffman?

  Yes, you are right.

• 1:22:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  That you see it, that you see in here. You are correct. You are 100% right. We acknowledge that. I'm not trying to defend any of it. It's stupid.

• 1:22:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  And then after that, you kind of say, but there's something here. There's like 1%, there's a sliver of like incredible technology and political social movement and social layer that is absolutely going to change everything. And if you stop at the 99% of the joke part, you don't get to that 1% will change the world, then you'll miss out on this thing. But first step is acknowledging it specifically when you're talking, when you're talking to someone outside of the crypto industry.

• 1:23:28David Hoffman?

  Good take. Love it.

• 1:23:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right, David, now we'll get to your take. This is you. The merge reduces ETH's gravity by 90%. David Hoffman take. Okay. I know it reduces ETH's issuance by 90%, of course, we've talked about that. The triple happening post-merge, that's what's going to happen. Why are you saying the word "gravity" rather than "issuance" here?

• 1:23:50David Hoffman?

  Right, because proof-of-work miners, the theory behind proof-of-work miners is that proof-of-work as a mechanism fundamentally approaches 100% of sell pressure. Therefore, issuance plus proof-of-work, the combination of those two things, is always like a downwards pull on price. And so, proof-of-stake is the fundamental opposite, it's the complete inversion of that. So, proof-of-stakers are competing with each other on who's more bullish. Because as more people stake more ETH, the yields go down. And so, like, the way that this works is that the people that accept the lowest yields are always the last one staking. And so, the most bullish people are always accepting the lower and lower yields as staking becomes more and more saturated.

• 1:24:34David Hoffman?

  And so, where proof-of-work miners are on a race to sell their asset, stakers are in a race to be more bullish than the asset. So, like, with proof-of-work, it approaches 100% of sell pressure, and with proof-of-stake, it approaches 0% sell pressure. It goes in the opposite direction. And so, when we reduce our issuance by 90%, it's another metaphor. Like, last week, I was talking about like the swimmer that has to swim upstream and it grows really strong muscles, and then the current goes away, and all of a sudden, those strong muscles can move Ether forward. The same thing with Ether issuance, is that when we reduce issuance by 90% and go to proof-of-stake, it's like we're turning gravity off on the ETH price. It's like, when it jumps, it's gonna jump 10 times higher because the gravity's turned off on Ether.

• 1:25:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  We have moon gravity, rather than...

• 1:25:20David Hoffman?

  Ether's got moon boots, yeah. It's 10 times easier to get to the moon. How do you like that metaphor?

• 1:25:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  I like it a lot, since it's merged timber. I'm feeling in the mood for these kind of bullish tweets.

• 1:25:32David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I think you're always in the mood for these tweets.

• 1:25:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, last thing, I'll read it from Eric Wall on last take of the week. Andreas Antonopoulos was and still is a great man and probably the best Bitcoiner who ever existed. And this is Kobe under it saying, he's such a legend. And then picture, what are we looking at here?

• 1:25:52David Hoffman?

  Yeah, we're picture of just Kobe and Andreas Antonopoulos posing for a photo with just a nice high five, which definitely looks like a London bar. I'm guessing, because that's where Kobe is. And Kobe says, the world's greatest Bitcoiner, of course Andreas, next to the world's worst Bitcoiner, which is of course Kobe. I just thought it was a good photo. It's a nice black and white photo, kind of looks like an oldie photo. I thought it was a good photo.

• 1:26:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Andreas is one of the people who got me into crypto, I will say, back in like 2014. And he is, I know sometimes David and I give Bitcoin maximalists a hard time. We're not giving Bitcoiners a hard time.

• 1:26:29David Hoffman?

  No.

• 1:26:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Andreas to me is like the greatest Bitcoiner who ever existed. He, I think he exemplifies all of the good parts of Bitcoin. And I wish more Andreas's were still counted themselves as Bitcoiners. Because like, that is a person that does not embarrass me. Like, when I call myself a Bitcoiner, I'd be, I'd be proud to be associated with someone like Andreas. He's here for the right reasons.

• 1:26:59Ryan Sean Adams?

  He cares very deeply about the fundamental values of censorship resistance and immutability, like what we're building in crypto. And he stayed true from the very beginning. He's also incredibly articulate and a very persuasive thinker and a genuinely good person who's upheld his reputation over the decades. How many other people in crypto can you say that about? So, if you ever want an example of somebody, a Bitcoiner, that David and I think very highly of and would want to emulate and would want to be, Bankless to be associated with, it's Andreas Antonopoulos. He should come on Bankless Podcast, we still haven't made that happen yet.

• 1:27:37David Hoffman?

  We've tried to, we've tried to get him on, he'll come on eventually, hopefully. His Internet of Money books, Ryan, were... They were the first like piece of non-technical Bitcoin literature that really opened up my brain to what this thing is. And when I would listen to his talks on YouTube and they're all just chock full of metaphors. And like people talk about like Bankless, they're really good at their metaphors. Like, I'm so honored that people say that about us because I look to Andreas Antonopoulos as like a personal hero in this space. As somebody who really commands like the literary power of metaphor to help democratize access to the information behind crypto. So like, not only am I totally in agreement that like he's the world's greatest Bitcoiner, just straight up personal hero.

• 1:28:19David Hoffman?

  And if you haven't read Andreas' Antonopoulos' Internet of Money, Volumes 1 and 2, add that to your like required reading material because it will grow your understanding of crypto.

• 1:28:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, absolutely. There we go. All right. What are you bullish on this week, David?

• 1:28:34David Hoffman?

  I'm bullish on Bankless' brand-new live streaming infrastructure, which I think the viewers on YouTube definitely got a taste of that because the formatting is a little bit different. Still got some work to do. Still need to get some templates from our designer to make that black background more interesting. But the OBS, the broadcasting suite service that I use, and also this physical studio, has now finally been done. Like, we're done here. It's good to go.

• 1:28:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  Can you turn the lights on again?

• 1:28:57David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Can we see that again?

• 1:28:58David Hoffman?

  So, okay. Oh, shit, I should have let into it. But, so Wes, the guy that was helping me set this stuff up, he sets up the normal like lights, right? So like YouTube lights, got some blue in the background. And then, once he's done with that, he's like, okay, I'm done setting up all the lights for this studio. But would you like party mode lights? And I go for a half second, yes. Yes, I would like party mode lights. And so now I have party mode lights in my apartment.

• 1:29:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wow, that's awesome, man. Are you gonna use that outside of the podcast? Have people over?

• 1:29:31David Hoffman?

  This is like when I'm just working, like writing and doing some work. I've got party mode lights on.

• 1:29:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's awesome. David's in the club. It's good.

• 1:29:41David Hoffman?

  Oh, gosh. Ryan, what do you think?

• 1:29:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Rollups. I think Arbitrum Nitro earlier this week, right? So it's only been a year since rollups kind of came out, like EVM compatible rollups. And we just got 7X more Ethereum's out of it in just a year's time. All right?

• 1:29:59David Hoffman?

  Seven more Ethereum's?

• 1:30:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I don't like, you don't have to do the math, but like if you do 7X every year, that's a lot of transactions per second. That's a lot of scalability. And not only did they do that, you also have like technologies like Nova, for example, which is like relaxing the requirement to put data on chain and store it elsewhere. What I learned in that episode we did earlier this week is like if the data availability piece, if that part goes bad, that it just folds back gracefully into a rollup. I didn't know rollups could do that, David. So it's not like that bad of a trade off at all. And I guess all of this makes me kind of wonder about sort of the thesis for like, if you're a monolithic layer one, how are you competing here?

• 1:30:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right? Because you can't compete on a security from a security perspective, right? That's out of the question. And now rollups are getting like just as fast as you and just as cheap as you. So how do you compete?

• 1:30:57David Hoffman?

  How do you compete, Ryan? You go sue other layer ones. That's what you do.

• 1:31:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, if you're shady, but like if you're not shady, and I think there are like many layer ones out there that like aren't devolving to shady practices. Maybe a Solana, for example, right?

• 1:31:10David Hoffman?

  Solana's legit.

• 1:31:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Trying to do-

• 1:31:12David Hoffman?

  I have more respect for Solana now than I used to.

• 1:31:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, trying to do things well, right? And so how do they compete? They have to compete on business development. This is why we see things like a Solana store. I genuinely believe they're trying to compete on business development. But I think the long term on this is that-

• 1:31:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's going to be difficult because I'm seeing some of these rollups and their biz dev is firing up, right? So like Polygon's already crushing it, like optimism, we got ZK Sync, we've got Arbitrum like-

• 1:31:41David Hoffman?

  Arbitrum hired that like former face, somebody big ass, big, big company, marketing development team?

• 1:31:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  They are, they are learning like the business development skills and they started technical and now they're learning the business development. So it's going to be hard for the middle to hold. And so what I think we'll be left with honestly is like on one side you'll have Ethereum, which is kind of the modular settlement layer strategy. And on the other side, you'll actually have Cosmos, right? And like, I mean, the Cosmos ethos, not necessarily Cosmos, but this messy array of self-sovereign chains. And I, I think there'll be not much in the middle. I don't think the middle will actually hold.

• 1:32:20David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  So it is back to kind of like, you got Ethereum and then you got the Cosmos ecosystem and not much in the middle.

• 1:32:27David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:32:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  And maybe this has always been the way this industry has, has kind of evolved because these have been the two dueling visions.

• 1:32:35David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:32:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Uh, anyway, that was kind of a realization for me this week and I'm excited about the scale we've just brought to Ethereum once again.

• 1:32:42David Hoffman?

  A hundred percent. Yeah. I do think the era of monolithic blockchains is over. Like you're, you're going to get outcompeted just by raw tech.

• 1:32:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  By the way, we're doing a lot with Cosmos in October, right?

• 1:32:53David Hoffman?

  After the merge, after merge timber comes Cosmos week. So we are, we have-

• 1:32:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Cosmos Tober?

• 1:32:59David Hoffman?

  Zaki and Sunny from Cosmos to come give us the Cosmos vision. But I mean, we wanted to do it now, but like can't do it now. It's, it's merge, merge timber. So we're going to do Cos Tober with them.

• 1:33:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Cos Tober, there we go. All right, David, meme of the week time. What are we looking at?

• 1:33:15David Hoffman?

  We're looking at the Drake drop. So Drake, the Drake meme, you know, the one he's like shunning the first one, then pointing to the second one is Drake is shunning his own Drake album drop. And then he's pointing towards the actual real Drake, Justin Drake, the dropping on the bankless podcast Ethereum Uncensored. If you didn't listen to that episode, what the hell are you doing? Go listen to it.

• 1:33:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  It was real good. Did you listen to it a second time yet?

• 1:33:36David Hoffman?

  Yes, I did.

• 1:33:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  So did I.

• 1:33:38David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  It was, it's because actually I felt like the first time we didn't listen to the entire thing. Because like connectivity was so bad between Justin and ourselves.

• 1:33:47David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like I missed entire sentences.

• 1:33:49David Hoffman?

  There's a trivia, little fun, little piece of trivia on that episode is that uh, we um, uh, it was, the internet was so bad that we were using Skype, which I hate. We were all recording both video and audio locally, talking to each other on Skype. Uh, and then our like magical editors, uh, Luke and Dave just like saved this episode, uh, and

• 1:34:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Do you know, it sounds flawless.

• 1:34:09David Hoffman?

  It sounds flawless. Yeah.

• 1:34:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  It sounds like even maybe better than normal. I didn't even know how they did that, but um, thank you. Thank you, Bankless Team editors. Of course, our time to remind you, none of this has been financial advice. Bitcoin, ETH, DeFi, crypto, all of it's risky. You could definitely lose what you put in. But we are headed west. This is the journey. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the Bankless journey. Thanks a lot. I screwed it up.

• 1:34:35David Hoffman?

  This is the journey.

• 1:34:38David Hoffman?

  Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcast and community as a Bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your Bankless experience. You'll get access to our market analysis, our alpha leaks and exclusive content, and even the Bankless token for airdrops, raffles and unlocks. If you're interested in crypto, the Bankless community is where you want to be. Click the link in the description to become a Bankless premium subscriber today. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the channel for in-depth interviews with industry leaders,

• 1:35:19David Hoffman?

  Ask Me Anythings and weekly rollups where we summarize the week in crypto and other fantastic content. Thanks everyone for watching and being on the journey as we build out the Bankless nation.