Watch This: Sorry, Baby

Sorry, Baby is a refreshingly disarming movie. The film was written and directed by Eva Victor, who also stars a newly minted professor at the liberal arts college where she received her graduate degree. The school is also where she was once sexually assaulted. The movie takes on a traumatic experience with wry humor and vulnerability — and it announces Victor as a filmmaker and performer to watch. Follow Pop Culture Happy Hour on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/nprpopculture https://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture/ To access bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening for Pop Culture Happy Hour, subscribe to Pop Culture Happy Hour+ at plus.npr.org/happy https://plus.npr.org/happy. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel? That's your drive for more. Capella University's FlexPath learning format lets you earn your degree at your pace without putting life on pause. Learn more at capella.edu.

• 0:19Aisha Harris?

  Like a lot of stories, Sorry Baby is a movie where a bad thing happens and the protagonist must deal with the fallout. But Eva Victor's debut is refreshingly disarming and takes on a traumatic experience with wry humor and vulnerability. And it announces Victor as a filmmaker and performer to watch. I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about Sorry Baby on Pot Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

• 0:46Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Midi Health. Most women never get real answers about their hormonal health. Midi is changing that with virtual care covered by most major insurances. Understand your hormones. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit today.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  This message comes from Google Workspace with Gemini. Ever notice how every new AI tool asks you to explain your business to it all over again? Google Workspace with Gemini skips that. You get Google's AI built right into the premium versions of Gmail, Google Docs, Sheets, and more. No new tools, no extra logins, just one subscription that gives you personalized AI right inside your actual workflow. Try Google Workspace with Gemini at g o o dot g l e slash workspace with Gemini.

• 1:38Speaker 00

  This message comes from AT&T. Right now at AT&T, you can get the new iPhone 18 Pro for $0 with eligible trade-in. It has the ultimate pro camera system and a big leap in battery life, so you can turn this deal into a long-lasting connection. Connecting changes everything. Requires trade-in of $230 or more and eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit an AT&T store for details.

• 2:03Aisha Harris?

  Joining me today is journalist and host of the new podcast Black Queer Canon, Travell Anderson. Hey, Travell.

• 2:09Speaker 03

  Hello, hello. Thanks for having me back.

• 2:11Aisha Harris?

  Always happy to have you back here. Also with us is Monica Castillo. She's a film critic and senior film programmer at the Jacob Burns Film Center. Welcome back to you too, Monica. Thrilled to be back. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to have you. So Sorry Baby was written, directed by and stars Ava Victor. Victor plays Agnes, a newly minted professor at the liberal arts college where she received her graduate degree. The school is also where she was once sexually assaulted, so as a heads up, this topic will come up during our conversation. But there's a lot more going on here besides what happened to Agnes, including her extremely close and ever-evolving friendship with one of her former classmates, who's played by Naomi Aki. Sorry Baby is in theaters now. And Travell, I'm gonna start with you. What are

• 2:56Aisha Harris?

  your, you know, just initial thoughts about this film?

• 2:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, you know, I watched the trailer, as many of us do, before we go into a movie. And I said to myself, what is this? What am I getting myself into? I felt like the trailer did not make it clear to me what I would be going into and seeing. But I was pleasantly surprised, if I say so myself. This is one of those small movies, right? Where the beauty of it is in these quiet moments. It's in this kind of approach that Ava takes to dealing with traumatic issues and traumatic narratives. But it's done in

• 3:39Speaker 03

  this way that I feel like is super approachable. And so the film ends up being this kind of meditation on the ways that trauma keeps us, you know, stuck in a place while the community around us, our friends, our families, are moving forward and pushing ahead. And I think Ava, paired with Naomi Aki in particular, their chemistry, their energy. By the end of the movie, I was like, oh, this is nice. Not that the narrative at the core is nice, but that this movie, right? That this, this product that they put together and this approach that Ava has taken to talk about this semi-autobiographical experience that, you know, they experienced

• 4:24Speaker 03

  themselves. I was like, oh, this shows me that this new filmmaker that I've never heard about, I want to see more.

• 4:30Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, yeah. I love that you bring up the conundrum that often comes up with movies like this, which is how to market them to an audience, because plot is included, but it's not plot-driven.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  I thought it was a lesbian love story, Ayesha. But it is not, for the record.

• 4:48Aisha Harris?

  It is not. It is not. It's like, between this and Material is marketing that as a rom-com, it's like, God, it's rough out there to try and market these films. Monica, how do you feel about this film?

• 4:59Speaker 04

  I feel a lot of the same way as Travell. I love how tender this movie came out. I was just so impressed with how Eva Victor is able to find the humor in these, like, really painful moments, or these absurd moments. I'm thinking about the moment after her sexual assault, she goes to a doctor and is trying to figure out what are the next steps. And they're, like, scolding her in this process. I'm like, oh, in this moment? And thankfully, we have Lyddie there to kind of speak up for her and like-

• 5:28Aisha Harris?

  Lyddie's Naomi Ackey.

• 5:30Speaker 04

  Ackey's character, yes. She's saying, "Change that tone, please." You know, those little tiny moments. It's not broadly comedic or in any way. It doesn't undercut the seriousness of what we're talking about, but it does allow you a little reprieve. It does allow you to sort of laugh a little bit about the absurdity, but also move on. I love that the story is structured in chapters. So we see her kind of figuring out in, like, fits and starts. Agnes, Eva Victor's, character is able to, you know, move forward and continue on with her life. And then other moments, she has to take a step back and realize, oh, this has really blocked me from connecting with people, or like, changed the way that I move about in the world.

• 6:10Aisha Harris?

  Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting, because after seeing this film, and while I was doing like a very short write-up for NPR about it, I learned that Eva Victor once was like, working at Reductress, which Reductress is kind of like the feminist-leaning version of The Onion. It's very satirical, and there's a lot of- You know, stories that have been written up about sexual assault, rape and misogyny and all these things. And so I was like, oh, this makes sense. Like, that line of humor, the reductress style of humor, really bleeds into this film in ways that I think, like you said, Monica, it balances the humor while also acknowledging the trauma and the hurt. And I think that's such a very, very difficult needle to thread, especially in

• 6:55Aisha Harris?

  this era of, we've had a lot of movies over the last few years try to sort of tackle this exact subject. And I think some have been more successful than others. And I think the ones that have often been more successful have been the ones that are able to find this sort of like karmic, this really, really sucks, but also like, what can you do but sort of laugh at it? Like, the absurdity of this? And I think that Victor does a really good job of doing that. Right. Okay, I will say, I did not go to a small liberal arts college in New England, and I was not an English or literary major. But it feels like it gets that sort of vibe of what it's like to be like a graduate student in a small program in the literary world very, very well.

• 7:37Aisha Harris?

  I love the dynamic that Agnes has with one of her fellow students at the school. Kelly McCormack plays Natasha.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 7:44Aisha Harris?

  And they have this sort of rivalry that's really only in Natasha's head. But I thought it was just really fascinating to see how that small community can both feel very safe and welcoming, but also sort of hostile. And, I don't know, it just kind of resonated for me in a way. It's like, oh, this is the infighting. It feels real.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel like we've all seen these movies set in collegiate spaces where they show you a variety of different kinds of students, right? I feel like that kind of storytelling trope, if you will, is something that we are familiar with. But what Ava does in this film, we don't get stuck with those characters, but they definitely provide some of that comedic fodder that we're talking about. Ooh, I'm reminded in this moment of the scene when Ava's character is reporting the sexual assault to the school.

• 8:44Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  And they have two women come to her to try to basically say, you know, the school's not gonna do nothing. But they're like, we understand because we're women.

• 8:56Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 8:57Speaker 03

  And it just made me think of the ways that telling a story about sexual assault, those stories are often very sad. You know, they reproduce the trauma in a lot of ways to make the audience feel it. But here, I feel like Ava balances kind of these tropes and story narratives that we might be used to seeing in a space like a collegiate environment, but also pushes it forward in how she is talking about this issue, but also not really talking about this issue.

• 9:33Aisha Harris?

  Yes. I mean, I think it's also kind of important to note, and I don't think this is a spoiler. I think it's maybe awesome for those who may be hesitant about seeing this film. We don't see what happens to Agnes. And I think when we talk so much about films, whatever kind of trauma we're dealing with, whether it's sexual or otherwise, or violence towards people, I think there have been certain filmmakers who have known that the act of seeing is not necessarily the most traumatic part. And it's also not like, it can feel exploitative. And I think that Victor is very careful. There is description of it, but that description also comes with Lyddie, the Naomiaki character, is there to sort

• 10:14Aisha Harris?

  of bear some of that weight. And I think it's just really delicately handled in a way that I thought was just very lovely and touching and sad. I don't know. It's hard to talk about this movie because again, there's not, it's just about a vibe, right? It's just about a kind of a mood. But like, I'm curious, are there any other sort of moments or scenes? We haven't mentioned Lucas Hedges, who I feel like I haven't seen in a minute, but it's great to see him back here. He was kind of all over the place for a few years.

• 10:42Speaker 03

  I'm so glad he took a little break. I got tired of seeing him in every single movie, Ayesha. Okay?

• 10:49Aisha Harris?

  Look, absence, absence makes the heart grow fonder.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 10:52Aisha Harris?

  Yeah. But he's playing Gavin here, Agnes's neighbor. What do we think, Monica? How do we feel about Lucas Hedges?

• 10:58Speaker 04

  Sometimes buddy.

• 10:59Aisha Harris?

  Sometimes buddy.

• 11:00Speaker 04

  Yes. Sometimes buddy. Now, he's a really interesting character, and I love that Victor writes him in such a way that he's not. Bad, he's good, he's just there. But through their interactions, you start to see a little bit more of her discomfort in trying to move forward, potentially with a question mark relationship. But also, when he starts bringing up his own things and his own wants and like desires for the future, you can tell that Agnes is maybe a little uncomfortable and maybe questioning what she wants in her own future. And I love that they have a really kind of funny and sweet awkward moment, sharing a very small bathtub and they are both

• 11:39Aisha Harris?

  Very small.

• 11:40Speaker 04

  Very on the taller side.

• 11:41Aisha Harris?

  Yes.

• 11:42Speaker 04

  It's it's a very tender moment, you know, trying to, you know, get close and intimate with each other. But when they start sharing, you know, those thoughts, you see there's a little bit, a flash of discomfort in her face and like, oh no, and she kind of moves away from him. In such a way that the camera shows that, oh, she's not quite on board just yet.

• 12:02Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 12:02Speaker 04

  It's those little moments that I really treasure in Sorry Baby. I was also thinking, just like even the whole environment and how spaced out things are, the way that they get like this coastal college town down so well, all feeds to that feeling that she's isolated, in a sense. And so she's very vulnerable. So when she starts to lean on someone like Gavin, it feels so much more. And it's exciting to see their scenes together.

• 12:28Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, Gavin and I love John Carroll Lynch, you know, the great sort of

• 12:32Speaker 04

  I love that.

• 12:32Aisha Harris?

  Character director as well, pops up as a man she meets in a moment where she's really having a hard go of it. And that scene also just unfolds so beautifully. Like, I can see why Barry Jenkins is one of the producers on this film and I can totally see why he would latch on to this, because it feels like the type of movie that he would make or want to be associated with. It's like about those intimate, small moments, sometimes with strangers, sometimes with people you've known for a very long time. And it's just really, I don't know, it's just very, very beautiful. And I just love also the way it's kind of split into parts, sort of, or like like chapters, as it were, because, which makes sense, because she's, you know, a writer.

• 13:15Aisha Harris?

  And it's like the year with the baby, the year with the bad thing. I don't know, those little touches are very, very sweet and lovely.

• 13:21Speaker 04

  You're with a good sandwich.

• 13:23Aisha Harris?

  Yes.

• 13:25Speaker 04

  I can relate, I can relate.

• 13:27Aisha Harris?

  Absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  I love that you, you use the word tender, Monica, to describe the film because that is what it is. You know, I feel like at a time when so many movies in the theater are big, you know, productions, right, this is a movie that is the opposite, that requires you to slow down to its pace and, and to hopefully pay attention to some of these nuances, right, that they are speaking toward. And it, it really, at least for me and, and my experience of it, it was something that I was proud to have spent the time in the theater to watch.

• 14:07Speaker 03

  And the ways that it has me thinking about how we all go through various kinds of trauma that keep us stuck, keep us feeling isolated in various different ways, and how we push through and the journey that that takes. And it's not linear, right? You don't get over it in a few weeks after the situation. Many of these things stick with us for years to come. And I love how they explore that journey of moving through these instances.

• 14:43Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, I mean, look, I understand how academia works and like, you go where the job is.

• 14:48Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 14:48Aisha Harris?

  But you have to, because you have to.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 14:51Aisha Harris?

  It's hard. But it's also like the decision, whether or not she had, felt like she had much of a decision, like the decision to stay where this happened to her is its own kind of version of stuck, right? It's like, it both speaks to the realities of academia, but also to like the realities of what it can be like to try and rebuild and repair and just move on. And I have to say, like, I've already written it down as one of my favorite moments of these years so far. The final scene just kind of knocked me out. I won't go into details about it, but it's just like one of the most quotable things I can think of right now that just feels, whatever you're going through, it's like, oof.

• 15:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:32Aisha Harris?

  It's a lot.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  What a note to end on. Like, that's how they end the movie. It's so powerful. But again, it's such a quiet, tender moment.

• 15:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:41Aisha Harris?

  Mm-hmm. Tender. I think that's just the perfect word for it. And another reason why it's really hard to market this movie, I can imagine.

• 15:48Speaker 04

  How do you spell tenderness?

• 15:51Aisha Harris?

  Just, just go see it. That's all we can say. Go.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  Just go see it.

• 15:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, highly recommend.

• 15:55Aisha Harris?

  Absolutely. I think that's our ringing endorsement of it. You should absolutely go check it out. And once you do, please let us know what you think about Sorry, Baby. Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/PCHH and on Letterboxd at letterboxd.com/NPRPopCulture. We'll have a link to that in our episode description. That brings us to the end of our show. Monica Castillo, Travell Anderson, thanks so much for being here. And, you know, just reveling in the tenderness of it all.

• 16:23Speaker 03

  Thank you, Ayesha.

• 16:24Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 16:25Aisha Harris?

  And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Carly Rubin, Liz Metzger, and Mike Katzof, and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. Hello, Kamind provides our theme music. And thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next time.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.