Trail Tales 87

Today’s stories include drug smuggling, lightning trauma, beaver attacks, childhood confessions and dirtbag dads. Outsiders Only bonus stories available for Patreon and Apple Subscribers! For the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at: Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to the week’s partners! Hello Fresh: Use our link to get get 10 free meals + a FREE Zwilling Knife (a$144.99 value) on your third box. SelectQuote: Life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. Get the right life insurance for YOU, for LESS, and save more than fifty percent at selectquote.com/npadAvocado Green Mattress: Get 15% off mattresses at AvocadoGreenMattress.com/NPADFora Travel: Become a Fora Advisor today at foratravel.com/NPAD Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:20Danielle LaRock?

  Hello, everyone, and welcome back to National Park After Dark: Trail Tales Edition. My name is Danielle.

• 1:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  I'm Cassie. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm excited for today's episode, but before we dive into all of the wonderful stories you all have been sending in because you guys are so good at that, we just wanted to take a moment and say that we have a new merch design.

• 1:44Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and this one is so near and dear to our hearts because it has a little bit of a backstory.

• 1:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  It does.

• 1:51Danielle LaRock?

  I crack up every time I think about it. But in honor of, you know, the season of love and Valentine's Day coming up this weekend, we wanted to do like a relationship love themed type of thing. And Cassie had the idea for this merch design in 2022. I personally went back in our Canva profile, scrolled all the way back to when you tried to put this together. And I took a screenshot of it and I have it for safekeeping now, so it never ever goes away.

• 2:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  We sold it. There's people walking around with this original merch design on.

• 2:27Danielle LaRock?

  Did we sell it?

• 2:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes.

• 2:29Danielle LaRock?

  This exact one.

• 2:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  One of my friends, when I went to visit her, she pulled out of her drawer a sweatshirt with this design on it.

• 2:40Danielle LaRock?

  I blacked that out. I thought it never got out of Canva.

• 2:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, no, it did.

• 2:45Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, well.

• 2:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  We're redoing it this time.

• 2:48Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So for everyone on the edge of your seats, like, what the hell are you talking about?

• 2:53Danielle LaRock?

  Years ago, Cassie had the idea to create a design that's kind of a play on the keeping your distance from wildlife when you're out in parks and nature and all of that. And so she wanted, you know, sometimes the best relationships are long distance. And she made it happen, I guess, and we sold some. If you have it, I would love to see it. But we actually teamed up with Halls over at Pine Bones, who is such an amazing talented artist, and they brought the vision to life.

• 3:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes, in a good way, not a Canva way. And it's really fun and we can't wait for you guys to see it.

• 3:33Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So if you're interested, the merch site is live as of now. So if you want to check out the design and a couple of our other like fan favorite things, we restocked. So that's there for you if you're interested.

• 3:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Cool. Well, let's jump into these stories because we got a lot today. The same amount as we always have, but it's always a lot.

• 3:54Danielle LaRock?

  You're always, you always have the same attitude going into the trail. You're always like, welcome, welcome. We have so many stories. It's actually six, the same as always. Love you. You did the best.

• 4:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  I love trail tales. I think that they're so fun.

• 4:08Danielle LaRock?

  I know, I know. And there's like such a wide variety of just experiences and stuff. So what do we got today? I don't know. It's been a while since I put this together. So do you want me to go first or would you like to?

• 4:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  I can go first.

• 4:21Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 4:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mine is titled Facing the Beast. Hey ladies, I'm fairly new to the podcast. I only found y'all a couple of months ago, but I started at episode one and I am hooked. I've been listening ever since and I'm currently listening to two episodes every single day on my commute to and from work. I'm currently up to episode 61, Trail Tales 5, and was reminded that I actually have a trail tale of my own to share while we're stoked to be with you for two episodes a day. We hope you get to this episode soon to hear your own trail tale.

• 4:53Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, you're doing double time. So.

• 4:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, two a day. You'll get there in like 150 days.

• 5:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Let me preface this by saying this isn't my personal trail tale, but rather the tale of my old scout masters. But I feel like I can claim it because I was there for some of it. To set the scene, this happened in late October in 2007. Our group consisted of maybe 10 scouts, me included, our scout master, as well as two former scout masters who still like to go camping with us. We were camped near the base of Mount Pisgah. While all the scouts and scout masters were hiking up the mountain, the two former masters stayed back at camp. As they were sitting around shooting the shit and people watching, they noticed a woman out for a walk and heard her talking on her cellphone. They heard her say the name of the trail where she was meeting someone, and of course, they didn't think anything of it. However, about five minutes

• 5:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  later, a man in his 60s came by. The man noticed the pair of scout masters hanging out and decided to approach and ask about a certain trail and how to get there. The same one the woman before had said. Our scout masters both said they got an odd feeling about the guy, so they gave vague directions and sent him on his way. About 10 minutes later, they saw the same woman and a young man come jogging past, but they never saw that old man again until early January 2008, Gary Hilton was arrested. For multiple counts of murder, kidnapping and robbery, and his mugshot was plastered all over the news. There he was, the National Forest Serial Killer, the Beast of Blood Mountain.

• 6:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  It was the very same man that my old scout masters had seen back in October. I can't help but feel if my old scout masters had given Hilton better directions, then the woman wouldn't have made it out of Mount Pisgah National Forest that day. Anyways, that's my story. I hope y'all get the same chill the way I did while recounting the story. Keep up the hard work because y'all make my commute so much better. Enjoy the view, but watch your back, Jessie.

• 6:58Danielle LaRock?

  I mean, what a close call.

• 7:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 7:00Danielle LaRock?

  To, I mean, and this is like fresh for us because Cassie just did the National Forest Serial Killer.

• 7:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  And we're actually recording this on the day that that episode comes out. So it's super fresh and I feel like a lot of people had almost encounters with Gary Hilton just in this area and to see that and to also have an uneasing feeling. I mean, he was, he's a scary guy and.

• 7:23Danielle LaRock?

  I mean, that mugshot of him is what nightmares are made of.

• 7:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Yeah. He's got some really scary. He, he is, I think that it's very rare that you find pure evil in a person and I think that he is that.

• 7:38Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. God.

• 7:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, let's pivot. My first story is American Wife. Dear Cassie and Danielle, thank you for all the work you put into National Park After Dark and in creating an inclusive, welcoming community of outdoor lovers. We need the outdoors more than ever and you both play no small part in protecting and advocating for our wild public lands, so thank you. My story is not based in the outdoors, but I hope it is an uplifting one about a loved one possibly reaching out to say hello after they've passed on. Although I was born and raised in the U.S., my father is an immigrant from the U.K. and his entire side of the family still lives in the Lake District region of the country. Even with ocean and thousands of miles between us, ever since I was born, my dad's father,

• 8:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  my grandpa, always made an effort to visit every year for as long as he was able to physically withstand the long journey. Growing up, I was very fortunate to be able to visit him and my grandmother quite often as well. When my husband and I married in 2013, my grandpa gifted us with a trip to England the following summer.

• 8:38Danielle LaRock?

  My grandpa was one of the most well-read people I have ever met and had a collection of thousands of books. He often gifted me books and we shared a strong love of reading. On this trip, I borrowed his copy of American Wife by Curtis Sittenfield. Although this detail may seem somewhat random, it's important to keep in mind as my story continues. I took the book with me back home to the States and I enjoyed it so much that immediately after I finished it, I sent my grandmother a Facebook message asking her to please thank grandpa for letting me borrow the book and shared how much I enjoyed it because my grandpa didn't do technology. After this, my copy of American Wife stayed snugly nestled at the bottom of my bookshelf. Is it borrowing if you never give it back? LOL. It's like a long loan, an indefinite loan.

• 9:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Also known as stealing.

• 9:23Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 9:27Danielle LaRock?

  Keeping it safe for a really long time. Years passed and over time, grandpa's visits to the US dwindled as he aged. We visited as frequently as our schedules, jobs, and budget would allow, and enjoyed a very special Christmas with my grandparents and family in 2023. At the end of the visit, my grandpa dropped us off at the train station the night before we were scheduled to fly back home. At the time, I couldn't explain it, but after he dropped us off, I completely broke down in tears after saying goodbye. Whether it was my intuition, gut, or something more, something within me knew deep down that was the last time I would ever see him. On a very snowy day in February of 2025, I received the call that grandpa had passed away at the age of 90.

• 10:07Danielle LaRock?

  I was in no shape to continue working, so I drove home where I allowed myself the space to cry, process, and grieve. Not long after I got home, I walked by my bookshelf and I was stunned to see my copy of American Wife laying neatly face up about four to five inches from the bottom of my bookshelf. I don't know how long I stood there in shock, staring at this book that had been securely settled on this bookshelf for years, now facing me on the day of my grandpa's passing. When it comes to my views of the afterlife, I truly do not know what to believe. I like to think I can be grounded in reality while being receptive to the possibility that there are things we truly cannot explain after a loved one passes away.

• 10:49Danielle LaRock?

  I can't explain why my copy of American Wife was suddenly neatly placed on my floor the day my grandpa died. But if my intuition is right, I think it was my grandpa reaching out to me as he passed through the mysterious threshold between life and death. Ultimately, this experience was a gift as I moved through my grief, a gift for which I am very grateful. Thank you for your time and for sharing my story. I hope that other listeners who have experienced the loss of a grandparent, or anyone for that matter, finds comfort in the story. Maybe there are others who have had a similar experience. Enjoy the view, but watch your bookcase. Someone might be trying to reach out. Best wishes, Rose.

• 11:26Cassandra Yahnian?

  I love that. It's like your grandpa was like, I know you still have the book and I'm glad.

• 11:32Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. It's like, hey, just so you know, here I am. Hello.

• 11:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  Just so you know, I remember. But you can keep it.

• 11:39Danielle LaRock?

  You never gave it back and all the secrets have been revealed.

• 11:45Danielle LaRock?

  That's awesome. I'm really curious as to that book now. Like, what? I've never heard of it. Have you? American way?

• 11:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  No.

• 11:54Danielle LaRock?

  I have been on a reading kick. I go through ebbs and flows with reading. I think obviously we have our book club, so we always read at least one book a month for that. And of course, whatever research materials we have. But I've just been in, I'm in like either a memoir or fiction world right now that I'm really, really enjoying, which is very different for me. Usually I'm like, I want to know just like historical facts and information and all of that. But as we spoke, I actually asked Cassie to delay this recording by five minutes because I was within five pages of finishing Project Hill Mary. And I'm like, I must finish this before we have to work.

• 12:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's funny because I'm kind of in the opposite. I'm in a lull. Whereas the end of 2025, I was reading a lot and now I, over the past two weeks, I would say I really haven't read books. I've read a lot of other things. Not books.

• 12:55Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Um, for the past couple of weeks. I've been deep in research, uh, but not, uh, so much reading.

• 13:03Danielle LaRock?

  There's only so much your brain can handle. But I do have, actually, I wanted to ask really quick. If you've heard, this has been all over my like book, social media world. The book called The Last Letter. Have you heard of this?

• 13:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, by Rebecca Yara's.

• 13:19Danielle LaRock?

  Did you read it?

• 13:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  No, I haven't, but she writes Fourth Wing.

• 13:23Danielle LaRock?

  I've never read Fourth Wing. But

• 13:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 13:25Danielle LaRock?

  The amount of videos I've been coming across about this one particular book and people just like bawling their eyes out of how good it is.

• 13:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 13:34Danielle LaRock?

  I'm very intrigued because I do like an emotional whirlwind.

• 13:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I, it's funny that you say that because I actually read the description for The Last Letter the other day. Just because it was popping up again for me and I was like, do I want to read this right now? Like, is this the vibe? But like I said, I'm kind of in a lull and uninspired to read right now. So it was nothing against the book. I just me, but I've heard a lot of people say, if you want to cry, The Last Letter is, is the one.

• 14:03Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, that's my vibe right now, I think. I'm down for that.

• 14:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Then read it.

• 14:08Danielle LaRock?

  Okay. All right, I will.

• 14:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, you read it and report back. I really liked Fourth Wing and I like her writing, so I would be curious.

• 14:20Danielle LaRock?

  All right, I'll let you know.

• 14:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Totally different style book than Fourth Wing, but.

• 14:23Danielle LaRock?

  All right.

• 14:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, well, let's go to my next story. Mine is titled, My Dad Was A Drug Smuggler. Hi, I've been a fan for a while, but I started from the beginning, so I'm a bit behind on episodes. And recently I listened to the one about growing weed in national parks. The episode reminded me of my dad, so I told him about it and he responded by telling me his own national park story. I'm going to keep this pretty vague because of the whole committing federal crimes thing. But for some context, all of this was happening in during the late 90s and early 2000s. For being pretty vague, you just gave us a location and a timeline, but

• 15:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  that's fine.

• 15:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  But okay, we're not gonna snitch on your dad, but I hope you're not.

• 15:17Danielle LaRock?

  Accidentally.

• 15:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Accidentally. Growing up, it was a semi-open secret that my dad and a few of his friends, including my godfather, were illegally growing and selling weed on a relatively large scale. It was also a semi-open secret that they were on the middle tier of the DEA watch list. At one point, the DEA actually came to our house, but at the time, they were not very sneaky. Most of the time, people would find out they were coming the day before. They also weren't good at looking. He only ever had a small, personal stash at our house, and he was able to just hide it in a bag of fresh lawn trimmings.

• 15:53Danielle LaRock?

  Being on any sort of tier of the DEA watch list feels like very intense.

• 16:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 16:03Danielle LaRock?

  I like, she's making it seem that this is like, no biggie.

• 16:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, you know, I totally get that, because I think back to it, and I do not remember the full scope of exactly what was going on, but I remember I had college friends who were on the DEA watch list, and they were notified before a raid came to their house, and so they all fled and left because they were selling a lot of drugs in college, and they weren't caught. And I very fully remember, at least the stories of them jumping out of windows and like fleeing before they got there and packing up all their stuff and running across campus.

• 16:44Danielle LaRock?

  The DEA, from the DEA?

• 16:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  I believe so, yeah.

• 16:47Danielle LaRock?

  Not just like the local police?

• 16:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  No.

• 16:52Danielle LaRock?

  God, you've lived a lot of lives.

• 16:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  I know.

• 16:56Danielle LaRock?

  She's full of secrets.

• 16:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  I'm full of secrets. So I totally get it. It's not a big deal to have the DEA after you.

• 17:04Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 17:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Also, it's just me. Give me a break, DEA. Go do something more important.

• 17:11Danielle LaRock?

  I know. Well, right in the early 90s, early 90s.

• 17:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, so before it's, yeah, different time for sure. My dad is also an avid outdoorsman. He's throughhiked the US portion of the Pacific Crest Trail, summited a few mountains, and whitewater rafted through the Grand Canyon. All of this to say, he was very prepared to smuggle weed through the mountains, specifically

• 17:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  He said he did it more times than he could recall, and somehow managed to never get caught. I think he's more shocked than anyone that he never got arrested. He always just acted like he had nothing to hide, and somehow it worked. I did my weed episode, I talked about weed smuggling in the North Cascades, because it borders Canada. He would hike in from British Columbia, and once he got into the US, or vice versa, he'd make his way onto the main trails and just hike like normal until he got to his drop-off point. He would even stop and chat with the rangers if they crossed paths.

• 18:10Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, he's slick. He's confident.

• 18:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, he is. Yeah, Karen Laurel, he's like, these are my friends over here. He's slipping them a little nug.

• 18:19Danielle LaRock?

  I think he's just like acting like nonchalant.

• 18:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Same.

• 18:23Danielle LaRock?

  Hiding in plain sight type of thing.

• 18:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  I agree. Honestly, he was just talking about the smuggling pretty fondly. He always loved and it kind of seemed like it was really no different than any other backpacking trip for him. I don't think he ever grew weed in any of the parks, but they did grow in national forests, mainly the Okano.

• 18:43Danielle LaRock?

  Don't, I hate, shh, shh, don't be saying shit like that.

• 18:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, you're really giving, I can't pronounce it anyway, so you're lucky.

• 18:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  But you're giving, for being big, you're giving us precise locations and where and when he operated.

• 19:01Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, I won't tell you his name, but this is roughly how old he is, where he operated, the time.

• 19:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Exactly how he did it.

• 19:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  The smuggling he enjoyed, but he described the actual grow operations as some crazy shit. I would generally describe him as a gentle soul, very peace and love and touch with nature and spirituality. But he's also not one to be trifled with. He didn't give me all, don't tell me that your dad like murdered people and you're still giving vague details. He didn't give me all the details. Some of the ones I did get were slightly graphic in nature. So just imagine something akin to murder mountain, but in rural Washington on a smaller scale. He got out of the business and became a mechanic for a few years. Then in 2012, weed was legalized in Washington and my godfather opened one of the

• 19:53Cassandra Yahnian?

  You're giving away so much of your family.

• 19:57Danielle LaRock?

  For your protection, we might have to bleep some of that out.

• 20:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. My dad went to work for him as a salesman.

• 20:06Danielle LaRock?

  Stop it.

• 20:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  So they ended up back in rural northern Washington together, but this time they were thankfully not in the national forests. He has since left for good, but has many tales, including a friendship with Tommy Chong of Cheech and Chong, and attending parties of at Jack Black's parents' house. I'm trying to convince him to write a memoir. In spite of all the felonies he's committed, I couldn't have asked for a better, more supportive dad. Anyways, thanks for the time to read my drug smuggling dirtbag dad's tale. Enjoy the view, but watch for illegal grow operations?

• 20:42Danielle LaRock?

  What are a couple felonies, honestly?

• 20:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 20:45Danielle LaRock?

  And that's what I've always said. I dated a felon. He was great.

• 20:50Danielle LaRock?

  Loved him so much. Still do.

• 20:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 20:56Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 20:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's his past.

• 20:58Danielle LaRock?

  Sometimes people commit felonies and they grow and they learn and they evolve. And they, in this case, become dads who we know exactly everything about his life.

• 21:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Even though you're so vague.

• 21:10Danielle LaRock?

  Find him.

• 21:16Danielle LaRock?

  It is cool. Your dad definitely lived a cool life and I would read his memoir.

• 21:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 21:20Danielle LaRock?

  And it might bring Cassie out of her reading slump. So let us know.

• 21:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, let us know. I do hope that your dad was cleaning up after himself in the national forests.

• 21:29Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  That was my first thought with my weed, my weed episode of like growing in national parks was like all the trash they left behind. So ask your dad if he cleaned up after himself.

• 21:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And we won't get too much into the murder mountain part of that. That's none of our business.

• 21:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, truly. We, we want nothing to do with that. Just make it clear.

• 21:55Danielle LaRock?

  Just pick up your trash.

• 21:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, just pick up your trash. We don't care who you murdered. Just pick up your trash.

• 22:08Danielle LaRock?

  Okay. My next story is tied ATV's zombie tag and mothman. Hello ladies. Of course I have to say, love the pod. It's one of my favorites. I've been listening for a while, but have not written in as I didn't think I had anything worthy of a trail tale. That is until you made a call for pranks gone wrong. And boy, oh, boy, do I have one for you.

• 22:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, no.

• 22:28Danielle LaRock?

  Here we go. See, the call is out for pretty much anything. We just had one. Perfect example, your last story. Dirtbag dad stories. Love to hear them. Whatever they may be. Or moms.

• 22:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Danielle LaRock?

  Dirtbag dad has a, has a better ring to it, but I'm open to moms as well. Okay. To give you some background, I come from what I call a mild prank family. We do things mostly to scare the crap out of the other person for a quick laugh. It could be as tame as shooting a water pistol at someone from around the corner, or as elaborate as dressing up in a ghillie suit and skull mask to creep up on everyone else making smores around a fire pit. My family is also from the backwoods of Texas, so we get up to some fairly odd country things every once in a while. My grandparents own a ranch, which is where the story takes place. Back when I was a teenager, my family liked to play a game we dubbed Zombie Four Wheelers.

• 23:25Danielle LaRock?

  It was essentially Zombie Tag, but on ATVs and out in a cow pasture at night. Like I said, we do some odd country things sometimes. In case you are not familiar with Zombie Tag, it's a mix of hide and seek with tag. The person who is it finds people and tags them to help find everyone else. Kind of like a zombie outbreak. If you get touched, you're a zombie now and have to get the other non-zombies. Now, translate that over to ATVs riding around in a pasture at night, finding a hiding spot for you and your ATV, shutting it off and waiting out in the dark countryside alone to be found. It can get kind of creepy. I remember playing Flashlight Tag as a kid, specifically when I would spend a lot of time in Connecticut with my dad's side of the family and like my cousins and their friends and stuff.

• 24:10Danielle LaRock?

  Um, that was kind of what we did. I never played Zombie Tag, but I could. Flashlight Tag was high stakes for me. I felt really like a lot of pressure to escape being caught. Especially when your uncles had been telling stories of Mothman just before you went out there. That he likes to swoop down and kidnap people from the treetops. The only giveaway that he's watching are his glowing red eyes. They also swore he was real because they had seen him before, right on the very property we were currently on. Yep, that was my night. I was alone, hiding behind a clump of trees on my ATV in the dark, with every rustle of tree limbs making me jump and scan the treetops for Mothman's signature red glowing eyes.

• 24:55Danielle LaRock?

  Now, the shape of the back end of the ranch is a rough U shape. The fence line is covered in trees, so you can easily find a place to hide amongst them. I was on one side of the U and was looking back behind me at the curve of it. As I'm sitting, trying to enjoy the stars and not think of Mothman, I see the silhouette of something moving around the fence line at the curve of the U. It was probably about a hundred yards away and dark, of course, so I couldn't make it out. I thought to myself, it's probably just a cow, but I kept my eye on it anyway. Soon it was getting closer, still moving along the fence line, but was too small to be a cow. A deer? I said out loud to myself. It was getting closer and was now starting to move much faster than before.

• 25:38Danielle LaRock?

  No, definitely not a deer, I said, panic now starting to take over as I realized whatever this was, it was coming right at me, running, and it was not a normal animal. I lost it. It was Mothman and he was coming to get me. I just knew it. In my panic, I was shaking so much that I couldn't find the key to my ATV to start it back up again. I was fumbling around and looking back and forth between my ATV and the supposed cryptid running directly towards me, all while having a panic attack. While I was fumbling, I saw the lights from the ATV of the person who was it coming towards me from the opposite direction of this thing. That person just happened to be my mother. So what did teenage me do? I screamed for my mom at the top of my lungs while crawling backwards onto the hood of my ATV,

• 26:21Danielle LaRock?

  trying to put the machine between me and what I was sure would be my early demise. This is dramatic. As soon as I started screaming, the thing, which was about thirty yards from me at this point, stopped dead in its tracks. And that's when I saw a glint of the light off the glasses on their face, coupled with laughter as they doubled over. It wasn't Mothman, it was my dad.

• 26:46Danielle LaRock?

  About that time, the headlights from my mom's ATV shone on him, fully illuminating him and confirming my suspicions. She had indeed heard me and came speeding towards my location. She saw me and him at the same time. I started up my ATV finally to join her, but what does my dad do? He takes off sprinting towards the other side of the U, cackling as he went. Now, this is where things take a turn. As he's running, I'm screaming at my mother to get him and tag him because I am pissed. My mom turns and follows after him in an attempt to do just that. As my dad is running, he turns to look back at my mom and then just disappears. He had fallen straight to a hole that was covered with dead grass.

• 27:27Danielle LaRock?

  None of us saw it, just saw him fall into it in the most comical way possible. One second he was running, next he was still running, but not moving, and then just disappeared into the ground. It looked like one of those cartoons when someone runs over thin air and then suddenly just plummets straight down. Well, my mom reaches him first, followed quickly by me. She helps him out of the hole and he's wincing while he holds up his wrist. He looks at my mom and says, Uh, I think it's broken, followed by him trying to move it in a sickening crunch. He got on her ATV as they sped up to the house so she could grab the car and take him to the ER. In the meantime, I was tasked with driving around the pasture yelling once again to let everyone know that the game was over.

• 28:08Danielle LaRock?

  Once we had all regrouped at the house, it became very apparent that my dad had indeed broken his wrist and very badly at that. The doctors confirmed later that night that he had actually shattered one of the bones in his wrist and fractured another. One surgery later, and he now has a permanent metal plate in his wrist. We joke about that night now, saying it was karma for the prank he pulled on me that night. Despite the injury, he still laughs about it, and so do I. Now that plate in his wrist is a permanent reminder of the night he tried to scare the absolute crap out of his eldest daughter by pretending to be Mothman. Sorry for the long story and great deal of background. I hope it at least got a laugh out of you. Keep up the good work, ladies, and remember to watch your back because you never know if it will be Mothman or your dad that's running up behind you.

• 28:53Danielle LaRock?

  All the best, Morgan.

• 28:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Dads are unhinged in this episode already.

• 28:58Danielle LaRock?

  I don't know if we have another dad coming down the pike, but they're, they're setting a precedent here.

• 29:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 29:04Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, that's a quick turn of events. That is quick karma.

• 29:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  Just the visual of your mom coming in to save you to like, my daughter, like, gotta go. And then your dad just laughing hysterically at the trauma he just inflicted. It's just so funny.

• 29:24Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. Well, it's a memorable, uh, event, that's for sure.

• 29:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes.

• 29:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, my next story is titled Lightning and Lagerheads. Hi, ladies. Love the pod. I do sea turtle nesting surveys in Florida. We cover one of the most dense lagerhead nesting beaches in Florida, and I'm pretty sure we hold the title for most dense nesting beach in the Panhandle. Our permit covers six miles, so we break it up into three two-mile sections. One to two people cover each. Section at sunrise every single morning, May to October, rain or shine. I often listen to NPAD on my survey walks, by the way. This story is all about one of the rain days. I was never overly cautious of lightning storms until I started listening to NPAD.

• 30:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  I guess I underestimated the probability of getting stuck if you are in a storm. I cannot convey how terrifying this experience was in an email, lol. About half a mile into my survey, it started to rain and rain turned into a downpour. The sky erupted in true Florida fashion. It was almost pointless to do the survey as the rain was so heavy and hard that it would have washed away any mama or baby turtle tracks within a couple of minutes. But I kept trucking along soaked to my undies. The section I was covering has a 0.6 mile stretch we call no man's land. Part of a protected dune system, it has no access. And even if you were to cut through the dunes, it's about 0.12 miles to the road.

• 31:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  A couple of minutes into no man's land, the downpour turned into the most dense lightning and rainstorm I have ever witnessed. The lightning detector in my supply backpack started beeping like crazy. Protocol when lightning occurs during our survey is to take cover under the nearest beach house's carport, lowest spot that we can find. But I was in the middle of an uninhabited stretch by this point. Nowhere to hide, I took off running, slushing through the wet sand, being pelted by rain and lightning buzzing all around me. All of the NPAD lightning stories flew through my mind. I did not want to end up as one of those stories. I was finally close enough to see through the rain, the boardwalk that goes into the HOA.

• 31:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Lightning struck the water beside me. I could feel that fuzzy feeling in the air. In an attempt to make myself hustle faster and get metal off my person, I flung the supply backpack off and against the dune. Up the boardwalk I ran, only to find that they added a keypad gate. No way around. Even if I were to jump 15 feet down into the dune, I'd have to trudge through untouched dune vegetation for about 0.1 miles. I had a decision to make and quick. Stay here or go back onto the open beach and run down to the next HOA. On the boardwalk, there are stairs that go up to a small exposed gazebo. I figured the lower the better.

• 32:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  So I tucked myself into a corner where the stairs meet a turn into the boardwalk. I was so thankful to be tucked away in that corner, but it wasn't 100% safe. Still exposed to the rain, I sat and prayed as I watched lightning still strike on the water, hoping it wouldn't branch off and hit me too. And this was for about 45 minutes. The fuzzy feeling in the air finally subsided, the lightning clouds moved north, and the rain got a little lighter enough to be able to see down the beach. I ran back to collect the backpack, which had my phone in it. I alerted the team that I was safe-ish, but would remain at the gazebo until the lightning detector stopped beeping. Another 30 minutes passed and I was able to finish my survey.

• 33:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  My team was able to find shelter quickly as they were in parts of the beach that had easy access to houses and carports. I'm sure this story sounds underwhelming compared to a lot of tales we received, but it was terrifying. Never had I had lightning strikes so close to me multiple times with no shelter in sight. Enjoy the view, but watch the skies. Miranda. I mean, I think that that's terrifying. I think that we've told some scary stories on the podcast, but being so close to being struck by lightning is so scary and being so exposed. And your story actually reminded me of my own story with Al years ago. We were, I remember it was 4th of July weekend. We were at his family's lake house.

• 33:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  And we decided to go out and Alan and I had not been dating very long at this point either. It was pretty new. And we had gone out in kayaks just around this lake and it was a clear, beautiful day. There was no signs of weather coming in. And suddenly this huge storm came in while we're in the middle of this lake. Thunder, lightning, full on downpours. And I was actually in a completely metal kayak or canoe. I don't remember, but it was all metal that I was sitting in. And I was like, get me the fuck. Out of here. And so we went to the closest island and jumped out and literally just took shelter on this tiny little island. There was no, there was no houses. There was nothing

• 34:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  there. The trees were pretty sparse and we're just sitting there totally open. I made myself as small as I could, just sitting there and waited for the storm to pass. But it was full on lightning. Nothing struck near us, but you could hear it very close. You know, you count the seconds to see how close the lightning is for me. You count the seconds of the thunder to see how close the lightning is. There were no seconds. It was just going and it was, um, it was very scary. So I can definitely picture what you were going through.

• 35:15Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I feel like lightning is one of those things where you have certainly traumatized me through your story sharing regarding, uh, different events that involve lightning.

• 35:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  You as well. You did the, uh, Spark Ranger.

• 35:30Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, but.

• 35:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  That was scary.

• 35:33Danielle LaRock?

  It was scary, but it was kind of on the more lighter hearted.

• 35:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  For us, not for him.

• 35:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, not for him, but I'm just saying, your lightning stories have been way more somber from start to finish, I think, and scary and heavy. And I just feel like that's one situation that once I, it doesn't matter how many times I've heard about lightning protocol and what to do and the different ways that it can strike and affect you and whatever. I feel like I would just freeze up and have no fucking idea what to do and I would be so scared.

• 36:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 36:07Danielle LaRock?

  So I hope I don't find myself in lightning anytime soon.

• 36:17Danielle LaRock?

  All right. Well, my last story is titled hunted by a beaver.

• 36:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh.

• 36:23Danielle LaRock?

  Probably one of the last things I want to be hunted by because I feel like it would be a slow painful death.

• 36:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  I feel like a be, I don't know, I'm not too scared so far. I think if I was hunted by anything, I would choose a beaver considering I'm not in water very often.

• 36:40Danielle LaRock?

  I just want it over quick, you know? And that just feels like a long scary.

• 36:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  I want to survive.

• 36:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  And I feel like me against a beaver would have a shot.

• 36:51Danielle LaRock?

  Beavers are kind of like, they look kind of like sleek and small in the water, but they're pretty friggin big.

• 36:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, but I feel like I could just like.

• 37:01Danielle LaRock?

  They're like fifty pounds, I feel like.

• 37:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  I could like climb a tree.

• 37:04Danielle LaRock?

  It's half of you.

• 37:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  I could climb a tree or something and they can only run in really short distances. So I would just have to like get away from them quick. I don't know.

• 37:15Danielle LaRock?

  If you're on land.

• 37:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I would be.

• 37:17Danielle LaRock?

  If you're in the water. No, what if you're in the water?

• 37:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  I don't know. I feel like a beaver is the last on my list of predators.

• 37:28Danielle LaRock?

  I don't even know if this is like a predator situation. Let's see. Okay.

• 37:33Danielle LaRock?

  Hey, I really love your show. I find it brings me comfort when I am feeling overwhelmed or distant from reality, which I have been a lot lately and have finally decided to share my story of the time I pissed off some beavers. Perfect.

• 37:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Great.

• 37:47Danielle LaRock?

  This story takes place in the Capitol State Forest. When I was little, I was obsessed with random facts and I actually used to like beavers. I'm from Oregon, which obviously means I know a lot about beavers. How is that obvious?

• 38:03Danielle LaRock?

  Thank you for saying that because I'm like, wait, am I missing something? I think, where is it that has the town of, oh, Utah, the town of Beaver, Utah? Have you ever been? Have you ever had the pleasure of being in Beaver?

• 38:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  I feel like I have been in Beaver, Utah before.

• 38:20Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I was there. I think when I was finishing up the big five, it was like a stop and they have like a big gas station that is like, I think I have a picture next to a big wooden beaver and all their shirts in this gas station were like, I love beaver, like I love eating beavers. You know what I mean? Just like.

• 38:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  I like it.

• 38:43Danielle LaRock?

  Puns.

• 38:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Danielle LaRock?

  Things. Anyway, but it's not about Utah. Clearly, Oregon is all about beavers. Okay, fun fact, like for instance, did you know beavers can chuck through a leg in a single movement? I don't even know what that means. So no, I didn't know that. Bite through a leg in one bite? Oh, I guess, because the follow up sentence is they have incredibly strong jaws and teeth that can make short work of trees and femurs. Yeah, so bite, I guess, yeah. Don't tell me you get eaten by a beaver. Okay, well, you're not afraid and you don't even care about being hunted by one, so you're fine.

• 39:22Danielle LaRock?

  Maybe that'll change. This used to be one of my favorite facts to share. Beavers also serve as incredible winter meals for animals of the predator variety. And as such, they are not terribly aggressive, but more evasive. So this story is actually how I found out to make a beaver go aggressively on the offensive. Growing up, after we moved to Washington, we used to camp on the Chehalis River every year. It's a slower moving river with great rapid spots and many swimming holes and being directly off a state forest, there is a lot of cheap slash free camping. We were not well to do and the general dryness and warmness of the area also made this a really ideal camping spot for a large family with half a dozen subpar cheap tents. During the days, we would swim up the river to this great swimming hole with a log in the water that made for a great diving spot.

• 40:07Danielle LaRock?

  The adults would corral some floaties and rafts and coolers in a slow moving area and tie off to the rock bar in the middle of the river. As night fell, we would light fires in the middle and roast marshmallows and eventually float back down the river to our campsite. Moving upstream, this took about 30 minutes, but it was only a five or so minute float back. We had camped here for years and one year we went only to find a very large dam directly beside our favorite rock bar. My father had complained about it, but he let us piss off the beavers a few times as eight to 13 year old children are expected to do. My and the other parents generally let us run wild at this camping spot because it was just so familiar to us. This particular year, I was about eight and was testing my boundaries as an aspiring camper.

• 40:51Danielle LaRock?

  I had tried to light a fire in the camp me and my friends had made and got a real ribbing for it. As any child would, I had proceeded to drive the easier going parent insane with requests to have a kid's specific fire. My dad, being my dad, caved and said, you can have a fire if you take some wood from that dam up the river and manage to get it lit. Classic dad. It's like, yeah, you can go ahead and do your thing if you can get this soaking wet log to light on fire. It's like, good luck. See you later. This is about dads. It is. The story, this whole episode's about dads. This was exactly my sort of challenge, but he had attempted to give me an impossible task.

• 41:31Danielle LaRock?

  For whatever reason, my dad had not quite anticipated quite how chaotic his task would soon become. I was undeterred. I loaded up my raft with my two best camping friends, a seven-year-old and a five-year-old, tied a rope to it around my waist and began swimming up the river. Because of the dam, it was easier than ever to swim it, and even much of the way was walkable. We made it to the dam easily, the first part of the challenge my dad did not expect to happen. To our surprise, there were little baby beavers paddling about pups, kits, not sure. The big beaver, I assumed mom, put them away the moment we pulled slightly near. We tied our raft up to the dam, and this had the mom skittering all over. The mom was making me uncomfortable, so I looked back at my dad.

• 42:15Danielle LaRock?

  My vision isn't great, but I was pretty sure he just shrugged and took another drink of his course.

• 42:23Danielle LaRock?

  It's worth noting, my dad was definitely not sober, but he was reasonable when I left. He also has very bad eyesight, and I have no idea even with his glasses if he could see the beavers. But what I do know very clearly is what happened next, as it is engraved in my memory forever. I grabbed one piece of wood, and mom was beginning to fly into a frenzy. Now, I knew beavers were in theory powerful, but my father had told me they were afraid of people and harmless, so I continued on my journey because, well, I was eight. But Jay and Z, the besties, were backing off. The little one was actually crying, and Jay was talking about taking her back to camp. Yeah, she's five. This little girl's five years old.

• 43:06Danielle LaRock?

  This still didn't deter me, though, and I shrugged them off. I grabbed one more piece of wood and the mom dove into the water. I saw this as permission to continue what I was doing. I grabbed one more piece of wood, but didn't even get it fully off the dam before two beavers popped out of the water right beside me hissing, clicking, and emitting a strange, deep, gurgling, growling noise. Oh. Oh, they aren't messing around.

• 43:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  To be fair, you are dismantling their home that they have.

• 43:36Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 43:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Babies.

• 43:39Danielle LaRock?

  Small babies in.

• 43:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  There's so many sticks. Why do you need the ones that are their house?

• 43:45Danielle LaRock?

  Cause that's what the dad told her to do.

• 43:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  I know, but like.

• 43:50Danielle LaRock?

  It's like you're in the woods.

• 43:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, why do you need these ones?

• 43:54Danielle LaRock?

  They're pre-cut. They're right there. They're piled up and pre-cut.

• 43:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  They are pre-cut.

• 43:59Danielle LaRock?

  I screamed bloody murder. And it must have been loud because the whole camp heard me over the river. Little did I know, it could and would get worse. They chomped their teeth at me and I took off. Only one of the beavers chased me, thank God, because I am convinced I would be dead if they all did. I was dashing back through the water towards my dad. I saw him staggering through the water, shouting all kinds of curse words as he ran up the river. He was about to hit the area where swimming was a must and he was going to be slow to reach me. It was up to me to save myself from the beaver that was lightning fast and very angry. My dad was shouting at me to get to the embankment. That beavers are slower on land.

• 44:40Danielle LaRock?

  It is important to note, we swim up this river because of how densely forested the sides of it are. But I was only eight, so I would be able to find a path. Less my hulking father, who was a star swimmer, but was swimming up a stream for me while likely a bit drunk. I kept looking back and screaming. The teeth of the beaver are so big when they're up that close. If you have never had the misfortune of experiencing an enraged beaver, then surely you sleep better than I.

• 45:09Danielle LaRock?

  The teeth are huge and yellow. Between the screaming and the darting to land and the large hulking man running towards them, they retreated after I had cleared about a half a block worth of woods. I suspected my fear that I peed myself, but thank God I was in the water. My dad, to this day, insists he never thought that beavers taking chase would be a possibility. He assumed it would just be a good laugh and an impossible task. Jay and Z were really glad they were back near camp when the attack happened. As I think back on this event, it's apparent to me, in the beaver's mind, I was the attacker because I have never looked at a beaver the same way again. They remain, to this day,

• 45:49Danielle LaRock?

  my biggest fear. I would encounter 10,000 ghosts before happily encountering another beaver in the wild. I may genuinely trust bears more than beavers. God, this scarred you for life.

• 46:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Your dad did some damage on this trip.

• 46:06Danielle LaRock?

  If you have never heard or seen an angry beaver, I recommend Googling. The sound of their teeth as they scream at you is awful. Anyhow, that is my weird wildlife encounter of the day. I have many and will likely write in again someday, perhaps about the shark manatee. Okay, I did read that, right? It just threw me for a second, but you might have to write in to explain what that means. Anyhow, keep up the good work. Enjoy the view, but watch your back and don't dismantle beaver dams if they have babies. Thanks, Lay.

• 46:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, you learned a valuable lesson when you were eight years old, and that does sound pretty scary, I will admit.

• 46:46Danielle LaRock?

  I stand by being afraid of being attacked by a beaver.

• 46:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. I mean, I still don't want it to happen, but I would prefer beaver over a lot of other things.

• 46:56Danielle LaRock?

  If that was happening to you, I don't imagine you screaming. I think you're a silent panicker.

• 47:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  I am for sure. I'm silent and I think of my options and I flee.

• 47:08Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I imagine you very quickly flee, like swimming away, but I feel like you would be completely silent the entire time.

• 47:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  No one would know what happened until I told them later.

• 47:20Danielle LaRock?

  Until you're like, lift up your pant leg and you're like, yeah, I got, I got bit by a beaver that was like viciously.

• 47:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Attacking me.

• 47:27Danielle LaRock?

  Attacking me. What do you mean? I was five feet away. What happened? When?

• 47:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I don't have time to react and calculating.

• 47:38Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I can't speak and think at the same time. It's kind of like how I can't listen to or read directions while listening to music. It's too much.

• 47:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 47:50Danielle LaRock?

  It makes me crash out. Like, I can't, I can't think when other things are.

• 47:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like if you have to put together like a bed or something and you have to read the directions, you can't have music playing.

• 48:00Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I pause it. Well, first of all, I don't listen to music usually, like an audiobook or a podcast or something, but which is strange because when I'm, a lot of times when I'm researching and writing for this, I have a podcast on in the background.

• 48:12Cassandra Yahnian?

  That's crazy to me.

• 48:14Danielle LaRock?

  I just like the chatter.

• 48:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  And you pay attention and you can do both?

• 48:18Danielle LaRock?

  No, no, like entire.

• 48:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, so you're just sitting there listening to a podcast?

• 48:25Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And a lot of times, like, I'll come back into, like, the podcast sounds. My brain will switch over to that. And their mid story, it's like seventeen minutes into the show. I'm like, I, I don't even know what happened for the last.

• 48:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 48:41Danielle LaRock?

  Sixteen minutes, you know? I just like the chatter.

• 48:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  Very occasionally I'll put on a show while I'm researching, but one that I'm not invested in at all, just to have like some type of noise in the background.

• 48:53Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 48:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  But it's not very often. It's mostly if it's too quiet in the house and it's just like me and the dogs and the dogs are sleeping and I'm just like researching. I'm like, I need something, even a fan would.

• 49:06Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. Sometimes I think of Chaska and from his point of view, because a lot of times I'll be listening with one of my AirPods in, like, it's not even on a speaker or through my laptop. And hours will go by. And then he'll come up to me and paw me for like food or to go out or whatever. Or I'll just like take my headphone out. I'm like, oh, I should, I should take you out. And I'm like, it's been five hours of just dead silence.

• 49:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  Silence for you.

• 49:38Danielle LaRock?

  For him, you know, it's just like, I'm so sorry. Let me talk to you for a little bit. Or I'll start talking and I'm like, hello? It's the first sound that's happened all day in the house. So anyway, okay. Well, there we have it. I want dad stories, I guess, is the takeaway from this episode and weird wildlife encounters is another cool topic I would like to know about as well.

• 50:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  Totally. And if you haven't written in to us before and you're curious on how to do it, you can go to our website, npadpodcast.com and there's a submission link right there for you.

• 50:11Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. And for Patreon and Apple subscribers, you know, the deal, you got two extra stories coming for you in your extended version of today's trail tale episode.

• 50:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mine's titled, My Elevator Story and My Son's Survival Story in One.

• 50:27Danielle LaRock?

  And mine is titled, The Cow That Died For Salt.

• 50:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  Huh. Okay. Well, I'm curious what either of these titles mean. Check us out on Apple subscriptions or Patreon, but in the meantime, enjoy the view.

• 50:40Danielle LaRock?

  But watch your back.

• 50:42Cassandra Yahnian?

  Bye, guys.

• 50:43Danielle LaRock?

  See ya. Thank you for joining us again this week. If you have a trail tale of your own you'd like to share, you can write to us at [email protected] or visit our website at npadpodcast.com. Bonus trail tales and content are available to Patreon members and Apple subscribers. Follow the show on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and X at National Park After Dark. And if you prefer to watch our episodes, you can find us on YouTube at National Park After Dark. And as always, if you enjoy the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.