Inside America’s Most Chilling Alien Abduction [UFOs in Allagash]

Our American Alchemists this week are Jim Weiner and Charlie Foltz. AG1: Go to https://www. DRINKAG1.com/ALCHEMY to get their best offer… get 3 FREE AG1 Travel Packs and 3 FREE AGZ Travel Packs, plus FREE Vitamin D3+K2 and AG1 Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order! iRestore: Unlock your best hair & skin with @iRestorelaser and HUGE savings on the iRESTORE Elite + Illumina Face Mask Bundle with code [JESSE] at https://www.irestore.com/JESSE #irestorepod The Perfect Jean: The Perfect Jean: F*%k your khakis and get The Perfect Jean 15% off with the code JESSE15 at https://theperfectjean.nyc/JESSE15 #theperfectjeanpod -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early/Ad Free Episodes) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:47 - Meeting Jim and Charlie 11:45 - Childhood Paranormal Encounters 15:18 - Sponsors (AG1) 16:40 - Twin Study Attempt 19:51 - 1973 Pennsylvania Sighting 26:46 - Setting the Scene at Allagash 28:44 - First Sighting at Mud Pond 35:31 - Eagle Lake Campsite 37:43 - Sponsors (iRestore) 39:04 - SOS Flashlight Encounter 43:44 - Missing Time on Shore 48:39 - The Burned Out Campfire 55:11 - Sponsors (The Perfect Jean) 58:16 - Gravitational Field Propulsion 1:02:11 - Gordon Cooper's Encounter 1:07:21 - Recurring Nightmares 1:13:29 - Meeting Ray Fowler 1:18:14 - Hypnotic Regression 1:35:38 - Bald Patches and Tumors 1:48:33 - Breeding Program Theory 1:56:25 - John Norseen's Death 2:08:16 - 1970 USS Holland Sighting 2:12:15 - Effects on Artwork 2:20:03 - Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:26Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  The Allagash Lake. We're up there for the experience, for the pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness.

• 1:07Jesse Michels?

  What happens when you get back to camp?

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Well, we looked on the other side of the lake, and here's this sphere of light. And it's moving like a balloon moving very, very slowly. What the hell is that over there?

• 1:24Speaker 04

  When I saw the light, I noticed it had a weird quality to it.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  How so?

• 1:29Speaker 04

  So I looked at it through binoculars, and then as soon as I got them in focus, the light went like that.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:38Speaker 04

  Like a lens closing in on itself. And then it was right behind us. And I was like, oh, Christ. We are not going to make it back.

• 1:49Speaker 04

  Keep going.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Don't look back. And then I'm struggling to get up, and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes. And they began a clinical examination of me.

• 2:06Jesse Michels?

  So you were laying horizontally. What did the table feel like?

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Very sterile, an emergency room setting in a way.

• 2:15Jesse Michels?

  What did the beings look like?

• 2:18Speaker 02

  A bulbous head with large eyes, no nose like us, slit area in the chin. Are you freaking out? Freaking out, I'm beyond freaking freaked out.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Do you know if you have RH negative blood?

• 2:36Speaker 04

  I do.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:39Speaker 04

  And then they came for me. I was terrified. He kinda like reached up in the air with his long, thin articulated arms. And he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey puck. And they put one on the outside of each one of my shins and then I couldn't move my legs.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  On his legs, for several years, hair didn't grow there. It was like a bald patch on its legs. Whoa, really? And

• 3:08Speaker 04

  Both shins.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  And his identical twin brother, Jack, had tumors growing in the exact spots. Didn't even get a damn t-shirt.

• 3:17Speaker 04

  I mean

• 3:18Speaker 02

  No souvenirs.

• 3:43Jesse Michels?

  Jim Weiner, Charlie Foltz, thank you both so much for being here. I have followed your story for many years and so it's an honor to be in person with you both. You guys experienced something absolutely remarkable and kind of mind blowing in 1976 in Allagash in Maine.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, on the Allagash water system, yeah.

• 4:03Jesse Michels?

  And it was you two and it was

• 4:06Speaker 02

  His identical twin brother.

• 4:08Speaker 04

  My identical twin brother, Jack.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  And then And another guy.

• 4:10Jesse Michels?

  And another guy, another friend. And, okay, so let's set the scene. What is going on in your lives at the time? So you're in your mid twenties.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Well, I was a college student at the time, going to college on the GI Bill. And my goal at that time was to become a school teacher to teach art to children.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  So I was a dual major. I was printmaking and photography. So I figured during the three months where I wasn't teaching, I could do artwork to supplement my income. Well, uh, that was where I was with my education. Uh, Jack had and Jim had just graduated from Mass College of Art. I think that year or the year before.

• 5:05Speaker 04

  Jack did. I never, I I didn't go to, I wasn't at Mass Art at that time. At that time, I was at the program in artisserie, which was a a crafts program being run by Boston University and Benjamin Franklin Institute.

• 5:21Jesse Michels?

  And so you guys are both artists. What are you?

• 5:23Speaker 02

  All, all of us were artists, all four of us.

• 5:26Jesse Michels?

  All four. And what, what, what are you like personality wise? Are you guys sort of irreverent and rowdy? Or are you sort of humble and quiet?

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're average mid twenties, you know,

• 5:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 5:38Speaker 02

  males, you know? Uh, we were enjoying the experience of the wilderness. Uh, we had, uh, started planning the trip the previous year, uh, acquiring gear, just slowly accumulating all the gear that we would need. Plus the

• 6:00Speaker 02

  meals ready to eat, uh, type of pack, prepackaged food that we brought along with us as well.

• 6:08Jesse Michels?

  And you guys were pretty good outdoorsmen, right? You had some skills when it came to kind of surviving outdoors on your own.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I kind of, I mean.

• 6:16Speaker 04

  Grew up fishing out in the country, you know, doing fishing, camping, that sort of thing.

• 6:23Jesse Michels?

  Where did you live at the time? Was it in Maine or in Massachusetts?

• 6:26Speaker 04

  No, we were living in Boston.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was going to college. I was living in Brookline, actually, at that time. And the twins were my next door neighbors, literally.

• 6:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Just on, on the other side of the driveway was their house.

• 6:40Jesse Michels?

  So you guys have known each other for a very long time.

• 6:42Speaker 04

  Over fifty years.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, over a half century.

• 6:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, at that time I was. Studying ceramics at a program in artisanship. I was working with two amazing potters. One's name was Bill Sacks, who was a potter in Western Massachusetts, out in West Hadley. The other one was a guy named Rich. What was Rich's? Richard Hirsch, who was a master Raku potter.

• 7:11Jesse Michels?

  And are you guys best friends?

• 7:13Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  What, him and me?

• 7:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  I don't know this guy.

• 7:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it sounds like a one-way situation.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  Evil brother.

• 7:21Jesse Michels?

  Sorry, Jim, you got the short end of the stick here.

• 7:24Speaker 04

  It's okay. I'm used to it.

• 7:27Jesse Michels?

  So you guys are, clearly, there's a lot of prep work that goes into this trip. You guys are kind of, you know, figuring out the food situation.

• 7:35Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  What equipment we needed, what clothing, being prepared for the weather because it was at the end of summer. And as you may or may not know about New England weather, Mark Twain said, "If you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes, it'll change." And the weather up there at that time was abnormally hot and dry. It was one of the hottest Augusts at the end of the year that they had had. So we had gear for the next level degree of coldness was the primary gear that we had.

• 8:15Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Uh, we, as I said, had climbed Mount Katahdin uh, two days prior to beginning our canoe trip. And when we were climbing up the mountain, I had to take my blue jeans, I had to take a knife and make them into shorts because we were so soaked with sweat. Uh, from climbing the mountain that our clothing or mine was like grabbing me and restricting my movements.

• 8:46Jesse Michels?

  Hiking in jeans, never a good idea.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Well, that's true. You can make them shorts though.

• 8:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you got innovative. So I think maybe one of the most interesting parts of this whole experience that is kind of inextricably linked with it, you can't kind of separate it, is just the landscape of Allagash itself.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. It's beautiful up there.

• 9:07Jesse Michels?

  Describe it.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Well, originally, the Allagash Water System, which is now a national park system, was originally part of the logging industry. Prior to logging trucks going out into the forest, you sent teams out in the forest. They would cut the trees, put them on the lake, float them. And that was, they were moved down the Allagash River all the way to like Fort Kent and Allagash, uh, the village of Allagash. And then that was where they would get out on the St. Lawrence, is it there? Or St. Francis?

• 9:47Speaker 04

  St. Francis.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  St. Francis.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  That separates Canada from the US. And they would run the logs down there. Uh, we ran in on our very last day of our canoe trip, we met an old logger. Uh, his name was Harry Smith. Really interesting character. Uh, told us a lot about the early logging days and log jams and what you had to do to unjam them. And that was incredibly dangerous because you had to get out there and pry the logs loose until the water could grab them and get everything moving again. So, uh, the Allagash system, uh, still has part

• 10:33Speaker 02

  of an old railroad that they would go in to the forest, load up with lim- lumber or logs and, and take them out that way as well. And now, uh, it is all just a recreational uh, environment.

• 10:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, it looks very primitive. I mean, you don't. At least when we, the places we were at, you didn't see cuts, you know, areas that were clear cut or anything like that.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  There's no houses along the lake.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  Wilderness, I mean, gray herons are flying over all the time. You see moose, deer.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:13Speaker 04

  Lewe.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Bears, all kinds of wildlife.

• 11:14Speaker 04

  All kinds of stuff. You have to um make sure you keep your foodstuffs uh off the ground. You have to tie them up in a tree somewhere off a branch so the bears don't get at them. The um rangers come every day to collect your trash, so that doesn't lay around. The other thing you have to do when um before you even go there is you have to, they only have designated campsites, and so you have to tell the rangers when you.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  What your itinerary is.

• 11:42Speaker 04

  What your itinerary is, like, so in case you go missing, they have an idea of which campsites to.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  Start looking for you.

• 11:48Speaker 04

  Start looking for you. So um and they come and check you. Minute you land on the lakes, when we flew in, we flew in a uh bush plane. Um within minutes, um two rangers came and they come and they check your gear. They go through your gear to make sure you're not carrying any kind of contraband. Because the alligas runs into Canada. And they check to make sure that you have enough.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  Food.

• 12:16Speaker 04

  Food.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  First aid.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  And camping things to survive up in the wilderness, because we were there for what, two weeks?

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, seventeen days on the way.

• 12:24Speaker 04

  Days. So, you know, they're, they're pretty strict about who they let stay on the waterway and pass through the waterway.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  And if you're not out at the end of like the seventeen or eighteen days, then then they start trying to find you.

• 12:41Jesse Michels?

  Had either of you experienced anything anomalous in your life? Had you?

• 12:45Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:45Jesse Michels?

  You had?

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:47Jesse Michels?

  Described.

• 12:48Speaker 04

  Jack and I, when we were kids growing, we grew up in uh the Allentown area of Pennsylvania. We used to have these things happen at night in our house where we'd be sleeping in bed. We both shared the same room. And we'd wake up in the night and there'd be something pulling the covers off our beds.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 13:09Speaker 04

  Um or we'd see. Like figures moving around in the room. They, um, we saw, um,

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Balls of light.

• 13:18Speaker 04

  Balls of light floating through the house on occasion.

• 13:21Jesse Michels?

  Did you ever communicate with any?

• 13:23Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, we did with our parents and they used to say, oh, you're having nightmares.

• 13:26Jesse Michels?

  Did you communicate with any of the beings or the?

• 13:29Speaker 04

  No, no, we went straight to the bottom of the bed.

• 13:32Jesse Michels?

  Scared.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  Scared shitless.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  And you guys thought it was a ghost, didn't you?

• 13:36Jesse Michels?

  Harry, Harry the ghost?

• 13:37Speaker 04

  Call him Harry the ghost.

• 13:38Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 13:39Speaker 04

  He used to call our names sometimes.

• 13:41Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 13:42Speaker 04

  Like I'd be in, in the room doing something and I'd hear this, Jim, a real deep voice of Jim, Jim. And I thought it was, I always thought it was my father.

• 13:55Jesse Michels?

  Was there any history either to the house you were in or to your family?

• 13:59Speaker 04

  No, my father built the house himself.

• 14:01Jesse Michels?

  Anything around your family experiencing paranormal stuff prior to?

• 14:04Speaker 04

  No.

• 14:05Jesse Michels?

  This?

• 14:05Speaker 04

  But my parents, um, saw a, a bean in their bedroom one night.

• 14:10Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 14:10Speaker 04

  Hooded bean in their bedroom.

• 14:12Jesse Michels?

  A hooded bean.

• 14:12Speaker 04

  Which we never, I never knew until Ray Fowler interviewed her.

• 14:15Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 14:16Speaker 04

  And then she reported it to Ray and that.

• 14:18Jesse Michels?

  So she wasn't open about it with you. She was open about it to Ray Fowler.

• 14:21Speaker 04

  She was open about it to Ray.

• 14:22Jesse Michels?

  We'll get she, but he's a.

• 14:24Speaker 04

  Never mentioned it to us.

• 14:25Jesse Michels?

  Wild.

• 14:26Speaker 04

  So, um, you know, we used to have like to be like knocking on the walls at night when we tried to sleep. And if you go into our basement, um, we had a, my father had a, a little pool table in the basement. So family members, he had a large family, brothers and sisters. They would come to the house every other weekend or so. Back in those days, families like, that's just what they did.

• 14:53Jesse Michels?

  Super random question, but do you know if you have RH negative blood?

• 14:57Speaker 04

  I do.

• 14:58Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 14:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, my brother and I have RH negative.

• 15:01Jesse Michels?

  And you did too, and your dad did.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  No, my dad.

• 15:04Jesse Michels?

  Your dad did, but you did. You do.

• 15:05Speaker 04

  Jack and I both have RH negative.

• 15:07Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating because that's a commonality among experiencers. This missing protein that seems to, for whatever reason.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  Well, when we were, when we were like six years old. Um, we both broke our arms like within a day of one another. Like when you have identical twins, if something happens to one twin, you, you know, wait a few hours, it'll happen to the other one.

• 15:31Jesse Michels?

  It's like some entanglement.

• 15:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's like definitely entanglement there. Anyway, we had both broken our wrists. And uh,

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Opposite arms.

• 15:39Speaker 04

  Opposite arms.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Same fracture location.

• 15:42Speaker 04

  And those days,

• 15:42Jesse Michels?

  Literally entanglement.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, in those days, doctors came to your home.

• 15:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 15:46Speaker 04

  We had a family doctor that, you know, would come to your home if you called them. And so I was in just unbelievable pain. I was in unbearable pain. So they called the doctor and the doctor came to the house and he said, well, I'm just gonna knock them out because if you can't handle the pain, I mean, I was flipping out. So he gave me a shot of something to knock me out and a minute later, Jack goes out cold.

• 16:12Jesse Michels?

  I don't know exactly what AG1 is doing in my body, but I do know that my microtubules are online. I'm not saying I can feel the force, but my chakras have definitely auto-aligned. In fact, I used to think I had seven chakras, just like everybody else. And then I drank AG1. Now I have 50. Just kidding, but I did used to wake up feeling stiff and groggy like my brain's on airplane mode. And then I started one habit, one scoop in eight ounces of water. It's a multivitamin, a prebiotic, a probiotic, and with its adaptogens, it's the only green powder I'd ever bring to a skiff. Shout out Chris Ramsey. I take this in the morning and it's the easiest upgrade I've ever made.

• 16:56Jesse Michels?

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• 17:36Speaker 04

  Jack goes out cold.

• 17:38Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 17:39Speaker 04

  I'm sitting there and the doctor, they actually wrote it up. He wrote up a report and they wrote it up in one of the local newspapers. And shortly after that, these two guys showed up at our house. And they wanted to talk to my father and mother. And they claimed that they were from some.

• 17:57Jesse Michels?

  Institute.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  Institute somewhere that was studying twins and they wanted to take Jack and I away to study us.

• 18:05Jesse Michels?

  What institute?

• 18:07Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 18:07Jesse Michels?

  Was it called the, the Round Table Institute?

• 18:10Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't remember the name of it.

• 18:12Jesse Michels?

  Do you remember where it was?

• 18:13Speaker 04

  It may have been, um. Duke.

• 18:16Jesse Michels?

  Duke, the Ryan Institute.

• 18:18Speaker 04

  It may have been the Ryan, but I'm not, don't quote me. But anyway.

• 18:22Jesse Michels?

  What year, what year was this?

• 18:23Speaker 04

  This was, oh. So we're seventies, late, late 50s.

• 18:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, the Ryan Institute ended in 1960.

• 18:30Speaker 04

  Anyway, my father.

• 18:32Jesse Michels?

  It could have been.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  Freaked out.

• 18:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Speaker 04

  And literally threw them both out of the house and said, if you ever come here again, or if I ever see you around my kids again, I will.

• 18:42Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's fascinating because that time in history was when children started to be tested in programs that were kind of adjacent to MKUltra, but also.

• 18:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:51Jesse Michels?

  You know, they were interested in UFO stuff too. There was a guy named Andre Puharich. I don't know if you're familiar with him. But he was an early kind of architect of MKUltra. He was a Northwestern scientist and, and I think he was a medical student there. Uh, but just got very interested in consciousness. And he had a place in Austining in upstate New York. And he recruited what he called the space kids. And it was like a camp for high psy, you know, high psychic ability children. And they would often, you know, channel these beings. They would call the nine, these sort of, you know, alien entities. The first set of what really were the space kids were younger.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Some of them were seven years old, up to 12 or in teens. Interesting.

• 19:37Jesse Michels?

  So I wonder if you were, you know, being tracked.

• 19:40Speaker 04

  Who knows, maybe they were tracking us. Was that, did that eventually evolve into Montauk?

• 19:45Jesse Michels?

  So Montauk, I believe was, yeah, I think it would have been around the same time. I think it would have been the 50s, 60s. I believe that there was like this machinery they found at Montauk and blanking on the name of the author of the book, but Preston something.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  Could be. I had, I had the book at one time and I've given it away already.

• 20:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. But no, but that's sort of, so then, I mean, that whole, the Montauk experiments, which we now think are probably real, inspired, you know, Stranger Things and Stranger Things is, you know, hit Netflix show, which is around the DOE and National Labs, basically recruiting children and doing psychic tests with them. And Eleven, this character in Stranger Things, which is like the biggest show in the world right now, is based on this. So I do think, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating. So maybe they were trying to recruit.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  They may have had something to do with it, but my father didn't like these two people at all.

• 20:43Speaker 05

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• 21:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I don't blame him. Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  So that happened when we were kids. And then in 1973, in the spring of 1973, I was attending Mansfield State College in upstate Pennsylvania. It's almost on the border of Pennsylvania and New York State Teachers College. And I was, I was an undergraduate there and.

• 21:39Speaker 04

  They were involved in this project with beavers. Because they were having problems with every time a big storm would come through, they'd have a lot of flooding. There was a river up there. I forget the name of it. But it would flood and ruin everything. And so they decided what they were going to do was parachute beavers into the countryside, all around it. It's really up in an area of Pennsylvania that's really wild. In fact, they filmed the Deer Hunter movie. Is that the name of it?

• 22:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  Deer Hunter? Yeah, that's where they filmed it. It's like you can, you can walk for 75 miles in any direction up there and you don't see a single house. It's really, you know, primitive.

• 22:25Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 22:26Speaker 04

  Anyway, so I was, I was gotten, they got me and two other friends of mine up there involved with this where they dropped, they parachuted these beavers.

• 22:41Jesse Michels?

  They parachuted in beavers?

• 22:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, they parachuted in beavers to build beaver dams to control the water table.

• 22:47Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 22:47Speaker 04

  Which I thought was a great idea.

• 22:49Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  Because how else do you get into the water table?

• 22:52Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 22:52Speaker 04

  When it's, there's nothing there except trees and forests. And so what we had to do, myself and my two friends was, and they had other students doing this, was we had to go out into like all these old logging roads and whatever and, and find beavers and, you know, Marco, you know, put them in a database. So I was out one day with these two friends of mine and we're driving around in a little VW Bug. We're driving around looking for beavers. We never, I don't think we even found any. But we were coming back and it had just become nighttime. And we were driving through a cow, some pasture. It was this huge

• 23:34Speaker 04

  pasture with two ruts for tractor ruts in it. We were driving and it was dark. So it was, but up there in that part of Pennsylvania, it's, what do they call the night sky places? Where like you can go out and look.

• 23:53Jesse Michels?

  Clear skies.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  Clear skies or, you know, it's like we're.

• 23:56Jesse Michels?

  Virgin black.

• 23:57Speaker 04

  Virgin black. There's no light pollution.

• 24:02Speaker 04

  And so we were driving across, we were lost and we were driving across this pasture, this huge pasture. And on the end of the pasture, there was a tree line. And so we were going towards this tree line. And then I noticed, I looked up above the trees and I noticed there was this group of stars that looked like the Little Dipper, except they were moving. And they were moving in a really strange way. It was like, instead of like just going in a constant

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Plane.

• 24:38Speaker 04

  Pace or plane, they were tumbling like a slinky. They would, this whole, they were maintaining the dipper shape. There was probably six or eight of these lights. They looked like, you know, bright, bright stars. But they were tumbling end over end. And it was coming like right down towards where we were. And then we were like, I was like, what the heck is that? So I stopped the car. I said, we gotta get out and look at this thing. So the three of us got out of the car. And we're watching this thing. And it's just walking out of the sky like right for us. And then all of a sudden, out of nowhere,

• 25:17Speaker 04

  this car comes opposite us on this tractor rut. So we're like, oh, Jesus. So the car gets around us. And then when, when the, at one point, it was like on a hill. And when the car lights went up, it hit these lights up in the sky. And then they stopped coming down towards us and they started going parallel to us. And while they were, they kept maintaining this tumbling thing, except they, then they were changing shape. Like they were, it was like they would go in, at one point, they were like a V shape.

• 26:01Speaker 04

  And then another point, it was more like an amoeba type shape. But it just kept tumbling end over end the whole time. So I said,

• 26:10Speaker 04

  Let's signal it because it was only, you know, a thousand, maybe 2,000, wasn't that far up in the sky. And so I had a flashlight in my glove compartment and I took the flashlight out and I blinked the flashlight and all of a sudden, one of these starlight lights like went off like a big amber flashbulb in this like, it turned into like a tube of light, almost like a blob of toothpaste kind of light came out of it. And then it, it did a couple more tumbles and then it just, this is the first time I've ever seen anything like this. It was going like this, tumbling, and then all of a sudden, it was, it just

• 26:53Speaker 04

  reversed. It didn't stop and wait. You know, one blink of an eye, it just stopped and then revert, it just reversed itself and then it walked back up into the sky and disappeared.

• 27:07Speaker 04

  That was in 1973.

• 27:10Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. Wow. So that was a year before, or that was three years before this Allagash event. So you had had like this whole kind of backdrop of anomalous experiences, multiple.

• 27:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, except we never, we never subscribed them to UFOs. I mean, we grew up in, you know, I was a, grew up in farm country in Pennsylvania.

• 27:32Jesse Michels?

  Just like ghosts or weird.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, ghosts or, you know.

• 27:35Jesse Michels?

  Lights in the sky.

• 27:36Speaker 04

  Lights in the sky, you know, could have been, you know, helicopters for all we knew, you know, I mean, I didn't know what it was. And so we, nobody talked about UFOs and those, you know, I grew up in a family that was.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Conservative.

• 27:51Speaker 04

  Very conservative. So like, we didn't talk about ghosts unless something weird happened and then my.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  The Holy Ghost.

• 27:59Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, that's, that's Harry. Don't worry about it. It's only Harry the ghost.

• 28:03Jesse Michels?

  So he would casually, he would dismiss it, but he would casually, he had a name for this ghost.

• 28:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:08Jesse Michels?

  Because that's how much it would appear.

• 28:10Speaker 04

  We called him Harry.

• 28:11Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 28:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:12Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So you guys, let's cut back to 76. You guys are at Allagash, you have this sort of beautiful landscape. Sounds like they have a rigorous protocol for kind of onboarding you, you know, to camping out there. You get there. At what point do you start canoeing?

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Well, right after we climbed Katahdin, which was the first three days we were in northern Maine, went down to Millinocket and got some supplies. Then climbed Katahdin, broke camp the next morning, took the supplies we had purchased in Millinocket, and we drove north and east of Baxter State Park to an outfitter at Shin Pond. And at Shin Pond, a friend of ours, in fact, the guy that came down this last Saturday, we were using one of his canoes.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  A friend of ours named Charlie had lent us a Gromman aluminum canoe for our trip, and had taken it to Shin Pond, and this guy had had it strapped to the pontoon of the airplane. So he would take two passengers and the gear for those two guys and the canoe. That's all he could put in that little plane besides him. I had a Volkswagen Beetle that had a far more complex instrument panel than this airplane had.

• 29:53Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  It was, I mean, it was as simple as simple could be. You got a choke, you got an oil pressure gauge, and you got a gas gauge, and that was it.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, two canoes, the one that our friend loaned us, and then we brought another.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Rented one, yeah.

• 30:07Jesse Michels?

  Describe your first anomalous sighting on the canoe.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Well, the first sighting we saw of it was on our second day on the lake system. We were on Chamberlain Lake, and that was a lake that runs north-south. And we were going north, and we were trying to get up to the Allagash River, or the Allagash Stream, which flows in from Allagash Lake. And that is totally primitive up there area. The only way you can get up there is by pole-ing up the river, and we didn't know how to pole. But we attempted paddling and paddling, but didn't do us any good.

• 30:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  However, to get back to the first sighting. Uh, we had passed two teenagers on our way north and they were fooling around on a little island and we got up to this site called Mud Pond and we didn't want to camp with other people. There were people across from us in a sheltered area from the wind and we had decided to take this one spot. But when we got up there, the wind was like just coming down on us like crazy. And we're like, we don't want to be dealing with this all night long, trying to

• 31:34Speaker 02

  put our lean to shelter together because all we had was a, a big, uh, tarp that we used as a tent, you know, because you can use tarps for multiple purposes and we were using it for shelter and as well as keeping our gear weatherproof. Well, at any rate, uh, the weather forced us across the lake, uh, where this other group of campers were and they had asked, had we seen these two kids we'd seen earlier and we told them where we had seen them. And so they were getting worried because, you know, there's two teenagers, a member of their group and it

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Well, and it had gotten dark by this time. So out there, it's so black at night. You

• 32:21Speaker 02

  You can't really see your face.

• 32:22Speaker 04

  You can't see your hand this far in front of your face.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  So we were out with them as well, looking with our binoculars across the surface of the water, seeing if we could find them. And they ended up taking the campsite that we had abandoned. Uh, and a member of this other group said, what the hell is that over there? And we looked on the other side of the lake and here's this sphere of light and it's moving like a balloon moving very, very slowly, but it's like moving into this wind. So I'm trying to figure out.

• 33:01Speaker 04

  Just above the treetops.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was trying to figure out, what the hell is that? Uh, but then we spotted these kids and so, okay. And we looked back at this light and it wasn't there, so.

• 33:14Speaker 04

  Well, I looked at it through binoculars because it had, when I saw the light, I noticed it had a weird quality to it.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  How so?

• 33:22Speaker 04

  It just didn't look right to me. It didn't, it wasn't like a pure white. It was more like a yellowish.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 33:30Speaker 04

  White. And it, it, there was just something about it that didn't seem right to me. So I looked at it through binoculars. And, and then as soon as I got him in focus, the light went

• 33:46Speaker 04

  like that, like a, like a, a lens closing in on itself and then it just vanished.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 33:52Speaker 04

  And I thought, whoa, that's, that's kind of weird, but I didn't think anything more about it because we were, we had to set up camp. So, you know, it was just this weird light, but I had never seen a light do that before.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 34:06Speaker 04

  Like, just implode in on itself.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Hmm. Wait 48 hours.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  You'll see it again.

• 34:14Speaker 04

  And what was odd, which we, we didn't know at the time, but it was like the, the direction that it was in line to us was over Eagle Lake.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  The area that we were camping at two days later.

• 34:27Jesse Michels?

  So it was almost like it knew where you were going or something.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Like patrolling that area or something.

• 34:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it was patrolling the area. That's interesting. That reminds me of when you hear Commander David Fravor from his 2004 Nimitz incident. And he says, you know, we were, you know, dispatched to go check out this Tic Tac object. And then the Tic Tac was already at the rendezvous point that he was going to next. It was like they sort of know your intent or some trajectory.

• 34:56Speaker 04

  Or it had been there for a while because there was a, there was a witness, a logger who had witnessed the, this same craft up in that same area that they were logging.

• 35:09Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. Okay. So you guys kind of, you know, note that this is anomalous, but you don't, you try to kind of, you know, keep moving forward.

• 35:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, we're not there to see a, a light disappear in the night sky. I mean, we're up there for the environment, for the experience, for the just pure pleasure of canoeing and being out in the wilderness.

• 35:32Jesse Michels?

  What happens when you get back to camp?

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Well, well, that night, the first night we saw it, nothing. I mean, we were just turned in, got up the next morning and continued our canoe trip. That was when we tried to get up to Allagash Lake.

• 35:45Jesse Michels?

  Do you guys even talk about the first sighting?

• 35:47Speaker 02

  That, no, not really at all. No.

• 35:49Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 35:50Speaker 04

  No.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  I mean, it was, uh, was like, uh, I got bit by a mosquito type of a thing.

• 35:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So you probably said something when you were looking through your binoculars, right?

• 35:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. I said, well, this is, this is a strange light.

• 36:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 36:02Speaker 04

  And when it kind of winked out, I thought, well, that's kind of weird. But I mean, maybe, maybe it was a helicopter or maybe it was a balloon or something. And that's just the way it went.

• 36:13Jesse Michels?

  Right. Okay.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  So then the next day after that, we had canoed up, tried to get to Allagash Lake, but found it impossible. We had spent like eight hours trying to go upstream until we got to a point where we said, well, we're not even at halfway mark. We turned around and it took us uh, about 15 minutes to go back down to where we started. So we set up camp, uh, right there on the river that night in this camp location. The following morning is when we canoed down to

• 36:53Speaker 02

  the Eagle Lake portage area. So it was a three quarter of a mile portage that we had to carry our canoes and all of our gear. So how we rigged it is that we lashed two poles, uh, ran perpendicular to the canoe. And then the four of us would just pick up the ends. Uh, and with the canoe in between us and then walk the canoe over to the other lake. Went back and retrieved a second canoe and then. Got out on the water and we were gonna camp at Pillsbury Island. That was our goal.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  It's kind of in the middle of Eagle Lake, towards the southern end of it.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  But there was a canoe about, I don't know, a quarter of a mile in front of us. And that is where he be be lined straight too. So we're like. Well, we don't want to camp with other people anymore. So we went to our secondary. Which was Smith Brook Campsite. We set up our camp for the night and then we decided, hey, let's try and catch some fresh fish. So we can supplement and have a fish meal or something. So we built a fire because it was getting dark. So we build a fire that we knew would burn for close to three hours.

• 38:16Speaker 02

  And went out on the lake and we had to navigate through standing trees, logs in the water. And it took us maybe about twenty five, thirty minutes. To work our way through all this obstruction to get to the site that we were fishing at. Which was maybe about five hundred yards from our campsite.

• 38:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, we were all in one canoe. Charlie was at one end of the canoe. The other guy was at the other end. Jack and I were in the middle. So all we had was paddles and.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Fishing poles and.

• 38:52Speaker 04

  That was it.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  You know, and a flashlight.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  And a flashlight.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  So I'm setting up in the front of the canoe and, you know, we're. Having no luck at all fishing when the other guy goes, what the F is that?

• 39:07Jesse Michels?

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• 39:52Jesse Michels?

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• 40:30Speaker 02

  What the F is that? So we all sort of like turn and look toward the back of the canoe. And I see this aspirin tablet-sized white circle. And I'm thinking, that is the frickin' moon, you moron. But then I noticed that it was moving. And it was moving faster than the moon moves. It's moving at about like this speed right here. And it's hundreds, hundreds of yards away from us.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  And so we just sat there bewildered, looking at this thing and then it kinda like makes a left turn and then it starts coming straight toward us.

• 41:13Speaker 04

  Totally silent.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so we're watching it and watching it and then we notice as it gets closer, the tops of the trees are illuminated and this thing's only about 15 feet above the tops of the trees, just coming straight toward us. And when it was about

• 41:33Speaker 04

  Well.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Less than a hundred yards away from us directly across, I thought, I wonder what the hell it'll do if I flash an SOS at it. So I had one of those square battery flashlights with the handle and the push button. I put my hand over the lens, turned the light on and then I, three short, three long, three short, and then this thing stopped. I mean, it just, no sound whatsoever, just stopped moving. And all of a sudden, this big cone of light, blue light, like a neon blue, but it looked like a giant glass straw, you know,

• 42:18Speaker 02

  it looked like it was open, a void in the center of it or something. And this light starts from the bottom of the sphere, coming out across the lake toward the canoe. And that was when I realized the sphere was coming with it at the same time.

• 42:36Speaker 04

  This thing was big. It was as big as a two-story house.

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like huge.

• 42:42Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 42:43Jesse Michels?

  And how far away, is it like a little under a hundred yards from you?

• 42:46Speaker 02

  When I flashed the flashlight, but when I dropped the flashlight, it was about 75 yards from us and closing.

• 42:53Jesse Michels?

  Wow. And so do you think it reacted to this SOS flashlight?

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:59Jesse Michels?

  And it came closer?

• 43:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and all I could hear behind me were Jack and Jim screaming paddle Charlie paddle.

• 43:07Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  And as I said, if I could have ran across the water like a Jesus Christ lizard, I would have been doing that.

• 43:16Jesse Michels?

  What um emotions are going through you guys at this point?

• 43:20Speaker 04

  Well, I was terrified.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Self survival.

• 43:22Speaker 04

  Self survival. It was like, we're, I do not want to deal with this out here.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know what this is, but I I know as much as I really want to know at the moment.

• 43:31Speaker 04

  Cause it was, you know, it was big. It was huge. And you're like, uh, uh oh, that's not a helicopter. Cause it was absolutely silent.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wasn't disturbing the trees or the water.

• 43:42Speaker 04

  There's no background noise. I mean, you can hear a loon a quarter of a mile away.

• 43:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 04

  And this thing didn't make any noise at all. And it had this weird kind of life to it, like it was roiling.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  The surface of the lighting of it.

• 43:57Speaker 04

  The surface of this thing was like roiling. It was alive.

• 44:01Jesse Michels?

  It was like it was a some sort of plasma.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:06Jesse Michels?

  Something going on inside.

• 44:08Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Well, you know what, um, one of the things that impressed me the most that I recall about it was you've seen halos around the moon, right?

• 44:19Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  This thing had a halo around it as well.

• 44:23Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  As it approached us, you could see the definition of this halo. And the the sphere itself was, you know, in constant motion.

• 44:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I remembered, I remembered, um, you know, you're like paddle. Well, the other guy with us, he was, he was just like catatonic. He just sat in the.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  With the paddle across his legs.

• 44:47Speaker 04

  Across his legs and just stared out. And we're like paddle, paddle, paddle. And he's.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  It's like, sort of help us a little here.

• 44:55Speaker 04

  So Charlie.

• 44:56Jesse Michels?

  What's his name, by the way? This other guy who's catatonic? Chuck.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 04

  And um.

• 45:00Speaker 02

  It's the reason I go by Charlie. So there's no confusion.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  And so we're like Chuck paddle. And he just did sat there staring out into nothing. And so.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  It seemed like only a few moments from the time we started paddling to the time that Jack and Jim and I were standing on the beach. We weren't in the canoe. We're standing in front of the canoe on the sand of the beach.

• 45:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  And this sphere had followed us all the way across the lake.

• 45:31Jesse Michels?

  Didn't Chuck also, prior to this, feel like you guys were being watched? He had some ominous.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  That's what he said, yeah.

• 45:37Speaker 04

  That's what I said. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, the last thing I remembered before we were suddenly at the shore at the camp was looking back to see where this thing was.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 45:49Speaker 04

  And I thought, well, it's still like, you know, 70 yards away. Except it was like, instead of being back here, it was like, right there. It was right behind us. And I was like, oh, Christ, we are not going to make it back. And then that's the last thing I remembered until we stopped at the, our canoe went up.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Campsite.

• 46:10Speaker 04

  At the, went up on the shore of the campsite and.

• 46:12Jesse Michels?

  So there's a little blackout period.

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• 46:44Jesse Michels?

  Little sort of missing time.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, but I mean.

• 46:47Jesse Michels?

  In your memory, at least, where.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, but the thing about it is, is in total context, we weren't aware of anything like this.

• 46:56Jesse Michels?

  At the time.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  At the time.

• 46:58Jesse Michels?

  But, but now recalling it, you remember this bright plasma-like object 75 yards away.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  Oh, no, no, we remembered the whole plasma incident like it just happened last night.

• 47:11Jesse Michels?

  And then, and then you remember that, and then it just sort of flashes directly to like, you're going up onto shore and to the campsite. There's nothing in between that in your memory.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  No, no, as a matter of fact, I, the, I had a very vivid memory of my eyes focused on that campfire. And that was all that I was, that was my goal, my objective.

• 47:35Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  Was to reach that site. Cause that was the only indicator of where a campsite was.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Without that campfire, you know, the shoreline is identical at night. It's dark.

• 47:49Jesse Michels?

  When you're going onto shore and the campfire is in sight. Do you guys feel differently physically than kind of before you blacked out a little bit?

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Well, this was the kicker when we got to shore, the three of us were standing on this in the sand. I reached down in the canoe and I picked up the flashlight again and I gave it another SOS. But this time, all it did was it just went away from us to the opposite side of the lake. Once it got to the exact opposite side of the lake, it ascended up and away at a 45 degree angle.

• 48:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, I remembered when we got on to the shore, turning around to see where it was. And I remember it hovering right over the water and this cone of light was coming down on to straight down under it on the water.

• 48:42Jesse Michels?

  Really? Like it was, there was a beam.

• 48:44Speaker 04

  Like it was sitting on a beam of light and it was close. I remember thinking, if I had a stone, I could hit this with a rock.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  And it's. It was only about 40 feet above the surface of the water and the surface of the water was like a mirror. It was like glass.

• 48:59Speaker 04

  Glass at night. And then it did that same winking out. I remembered.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  Well, that was when it went up in the sky.

• 49:06Speaker 04

  And then it just went and then it.

• 49:10Jesse Michels?

  And, and when you could see it sort of close up, could you make out how big it was and the, and the shape? It was circular?

• 49:17Speaker 04

  It was still a sphere. It was still spherical.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  And it was still like maybe two and a half story house.

• 49:25Jesse Michels?

  Give a sense of the diameter.

• 49:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Triple decker.

• 49:28Speaker 04

  Eighty feet diameter somewhere.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, easy.

• 49:31Jesse Michels?

  And was it always a kind of white light or did it change colors?

• 49:36Speaker 04

  Kind of a whitish yellow.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  What? The, the, the best example I could give you to envision what we saw would be go into a dark room with a 25 watt light bulb.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Look at the light or turn the light bulb on, look at it, turn it off and then close your eyes. The after image that you have would be about as close to what we saw as I can think of, for example.

• 50:05Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. So you guys are going on the shore and you flash the SOS again and the thing kind of, you know, zooms off.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  Just goes across the lake and begins to ascend up and away from us.

• 50:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, when it went, it flew weird. I remember it reminded me of like when you have a frisbee and you're tossing a frisbee back and forth and sometimes the frisbee will go at a certain and then skips up and then keeps going and then it skips up again. That's how this thing, it was like it was going up a stairway.

• 50:38Jesse Michels?

  What happens when you get back to camp?

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Well, this is while we're in camp, watching this thing going up.

• 50:44Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  For some reason, I felt that this thing was about to take off at a high rate of speed. So I took the flashlight, which I was still holding in my hand once I had signaled it the second time. And I looked at the sweep hand on my watch noting to where the sweep hand was for the second hand. Then I looked back up at this thing and then it shot off into the night sky. So I didn't observe it skipping. I just meant that probably happened when I was looking at my wristwatch. But when that thing took off, within eight seconds

• 51:25Speaker 02

  of the time I spotted the sweep hand till the time the thing was a pinpoint of light in the night sky, eight seconds had elapsed.

• 51:34Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  And I turned and I looked at the campfire. The campfire had flames about one inch high. The campfire had completely burned out, but I didn't say, oh my God, what happened to the fire? I mean, because fires burn out. You expect that. But I was puzzled by the fact that the fire was exhausted. So I asked everybody, should I throw some wood on the fire and build it up? And they're like, fuck the fire, man. I'm exhausted. I'm going and I all of a sudden just felt exhausted. So it was like that adrenaline that puts you into the.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  Afterburner rocket across the lake to get back to your shoreline. Safety, that adrenaline is now dissipated and exhaustion hits you. That's the way it felt like.

• 52:30Jesse Michels?

  But you somehow intuited that this thing was going to shoot off, that you felt like you had a sort of premonition.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  I did, I did, but I didn't, I didn't know why at that time. It took uh, us going through hypnotic regression to learn the answer to that.

• 52:49Jesse Michels?

  And then the fire, the fire is significant too, right?

• 52:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, extremely so.

• 52:55Jesse Michels?

  So, so explain that.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Well, the fact that we had only been out on the water less than 30 minutes when we encountered this thing. So it should have taken us about 20 minutes to get back to shore, but it seemed like it only took a few moments for us to get back to shore. And when we got back to shore, the fire was extinguished. So that was a three hour period of time. That is that missing time that everybody talks about.

• 53:29Jesse Michels?

  And the, the fire initially was set, you know, it was an intense fire. It was blazing.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it acted like a lighthouse. Cause I mean, you have to have a point of reference to get back to, if you're going to be out on the water at night because as, as he had said before, you know, you can feel the heat from your hand, but you can't see your hand.

• 53:53Jesse Michels?

  So it was, this was a bonfire explicitly for visibility at far distances.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Correct. Yeah.

• 53:58Jesse Michels?

  It was going to be big.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. But not so big that it would start a force. Well, I mean, if it would have been windy, that would have been a different thing, but it wasn't windy at all that night.

• 54:08Speaker 04

  Concerned about it. I mean, it's called a long burning fire or sometimes an upside down fire. You build it to last, to burn a long time rather than quickly.

• 54:17Jesse Michels?

  And the fact that this was basically out by the time that you guys got there or, you know, all but out uh, shows you that maybe there was some, some, some missing time involved.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  Well, there are a lot.

• 54:28Speaker 04

  No, because fires burn out.

• 54:30Jesse Michels?

  This is a, this is a pattern that you notice in retrospect after piecing everything together.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. In fact, we hadn't even. You know, made that connection. It was Ray Fowler that made the connection. He said,

• 54:43Speaker 04

  This is missing time.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Where you knew you were paddling toward a fire, a fire that you were looking at. But yet, when you got there, the fire was out.

• 54:54Jesse Michels?

  That's also a common trope with alien abductions. You have, you know, Travis Walton coming back with a fully grown beard.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:01Jesse Michels?

  Uh, you know, and actually, it was the one year before you guys, right? It was 75.

• 55:05Speaker 04

  Seventy five.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  Uh, nine months.

• 55:06Jesse Michels?

  Nine months before you, okay, yeah.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  And I had never heard of Travis at that time.

• 55:12Speaker 04

  Know about Travis then.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:14Speaker 04

  And we didn't know about anybody back then.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  We didn't know about any of this shit back then. We were novices. It was all new.

• 55:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  Which is one of the reasons we were so intent, as I said to James, to share this knowledge with the world.

• 55:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, this, hey, something comes down into my neighborhood and kicks my butt and I can't do nothing about it. I want people to know.

• 55:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Did you, did you guys report it to?

• 55:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:41Speaker 04

  We reported to Rangers. When the ranger came to collect our trash, we said, hey, you know, did anybody see anything weird?

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 55:50Speaker 04

  Uh, last night? And he's like, what, what do you mean? They have that Maine accent, you know? So we told them what we saw. And he was like.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Kind of give us this weird look.

• 56:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. He said, well, I don't know what two guys were smoking last night.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  No, he didn't say that.

• 56:05Speaker 04

  Fire review, I'd stop, you know? And we were like, no, this, this is something that we really saw. This thing was like, how could you, how could somebody else not see it? And in fact, we asked other people when we passed other people on the lake system.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 56:19Speaker 04

  We said, hey, did you see anything weird, you know, last night or a couple of nights ago? They'd say, no, we were all in bed by, you know, sundown.

• 56:27Jesse Michels?

  And you guys had six more days, right? On the hike, on the trip.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  No, no, we had like about two more weeks.

• 56:33Jesse Michels?

  Oh, you had, you guys had two more weeks on this trip?

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:36Jesse Michels?

  So, so how much does this change the dynamic between you guys? Are you guys talking about this a lot?

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Well, that night, we didn't talk about it one word. We just more or less all drifted off.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Forget about the fire, everybody said. So we all drifted off, climbed in our sleeping bags and, you know, closed our eyes. And then the next morning, as we're breaking camp and eating, the only thing we could talk about was this thing. What the hell was it?

• 57:07Jesse Michels?

  It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year, no phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees, a UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me. But better. Same face, same great hair, but something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect jean. And they start at just $79, six fits, sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now, 2026 me, wears

• 57:48Jesse Michels?

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• 58:29Speaker 02

  What the hell was it? And we immediately said, well, it had to be a UFO. Because I said it's nothing military, because I'm familiar with what we have militarily. I've been in enough Hueys to know it wasn't no damn helicopter.

• 58:43Speaker 04

  Well, it didn't make any noise. It was totally silent. And as it flew off, it had to be going faster than the speed of sound. It just had to be, because that's how quickly it accelerated.

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Speed of sound?

• 58:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. No, no sound.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  That's in Mach 1, but no boom.

• 58:58Speaker 04

  No boom, totally silent.

• 59:00Jesse Michels?

  Feels like it's gliding through space time or something.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know how, you know.

• 59:04Jesse Michels?

  Breaking Newton's third law.

• 59:05Speaker 04

  How it does that, but there was no sonic boom and that thing took off like Charlie said, all you saw was a streak behind it.

• 59:13Jesse Michels?

  How, how much are you guys talking about it for the next couple of weeks? You talk about the next day?

• 59:17Speaker 02

  Oh, we talked about it for like the fricking next year. Everybody that we knew.

• 59:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Literally everybody that we knew and a lot of people that we didn't know. We shared this experience of the seeing this thing and being chased by it.

• 59:34Jesse Michels?

  By week two, are you guys starting to speculate about UFOs, non-human intelligence, aliens?

• 59:41Speaker 02

  No, I mean, we, we just said it was a UFO because it doesn't, it didn't move like anything I'd ever seen or any of us were ever familiar with. Like shooting off into the night sky the way it did.

• 59:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, we, and we didn't have any sense of contact with any beans or anything like that. It was just this weird craft that we saw.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Sauce and chased us across the lake, scared the crap out of us and and then we were off and gone. But to, to get back to me shining the flashlight to put that in a little bit of context. Remember I said I used to work on nuclear submarines?

• 1:00:23Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  And I worked with reactor system. Submarines operate with a bubble of air inside the, between the outer hull and the inner hull. They have a bladder like fish have a bladder and you fill it full of air to maintain a certain depth. Well, apparently when I was on board this craft, inquired about their.

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Power system, you know, because I was curious about it. And it was relayed to me that it works like the submarine working with a bubble of air. They can match gravity fields. So if you set it for, you know, like minus X, that might be like 80,000 feet up in the sky and set it for minus one and you're 12 inches above the water. And they can move between the, in fact, uh, uh, the, uh, encounters that the aircraft carriers had in California in, uh, 2004.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  They had a craft at 80, I think it was 81,000 feet. It was like over 15 miles straight up in the air. And they sent planes up to that area. And when they could just start seeing it on their instruments, it dropped down to 24 inches above the water's surface in under one second.

• 1:02:02Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. I think it was, it was right above the water and it moved to 30,000 feet and seven eighths of a second. And then, yes, it then it zoomed up to over 80,000.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  So, yeah, but I mean, that's another thing that kind of disturbs me when you're reading information. You get a lot of conflicting information and

• 1:02:24Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think, I think you're actually right because well, some of them are radar. I think the radar thing was more similar to what you said. And then the, the, you know, I think maybe visually, yeah.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  But, but it is like, I've heard podcasts on the allagash many, many times.

• 1:02:43Jesse Michels?

  Facts.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and they're mixing this person up with that person and yeah.

• 1:02:48Speaker 04

  Well, even Ray did that in his book. He kept getting Jack and I mixed up.

• 1:02:52Jesse Michels?

  So, so you get back, you see your families. What do you, what do you say to them and how do they react?

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, half of my family believed me and the other half thought I was squirrel bait.

• 1:03:03Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  You know what squirrel bait is, don't you?

• 1:03:05Jesse Michels?

  No, a squirrel bait.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  Nuts.

• 1:03:08Jesse Michels?

  Ah, that's funny. There you go.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  So, but over.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  The last 50 years and especially most especially over the last 15 years. Uh, there's so much more information coming forward.

• 1:03:27Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:03:28Speaker 02

  Uh, so many more reliable, credible people are coming forward. Uh, like the prime minister from Canada for.

• 1:03:38Speaker 04

  Paul Helyer.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  Came forward describing, uh, his UFOs. Uh, the information he had, the, uh, supreme.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Air Force Commander of the Belgian, uh, military. And, you know, decades ago, way before, uh, we were even aware of Ray Fowler.

• 1:04:06Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Uh, came forward, said these things, uh, were real.

• 1:04:12Speaker 04

  Cooper.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  Well, Gordon Cooper, uh, who was one of the Mercury Seven astronauts. Uh, Jim and I gave a presentation in, uh, Portsmouth, Maine in 1995, was it?

• 1:04:27Speaker 04

  It's either five or six.

• 1:04:29Speaker 02

  And 96, I think it was, yeah. And Gordon Cooper was one of the speakers as well. And we had, we spent basically the weekend with Gordon Cooper. He shared with us that in 1957, that, uh, he was on the base and they had a craft land, physically land on the base. So he was in a Jeep with three photographers, a cinematographer. We had a 16 millimeter movie camera and he was shooting film. 35 millimeter photographer was shooting film. And a four by five press camera photographer.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  And he said, when they drove straight out, there was this, uh, sort of like, uh, kind of like a Tic Tac shape thing that was on the ground on tripod.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  And when they approached, the legs like retracted back into it. And then it just went straight up in the air. When they were within about three or 400 yards, it just went vertically, straight up. And I said, well, what did the films look like? Gordon said, never saw them. Soon as we got back, they were all confiscated.

• 1:05:50Speaker 06

  And this saucer flew right over and put down three little gear and landed out on the dry lake bed.

• 1:05:58Speaker 06

  And they went out there, picked up their cameras and moved on out toward him filming. And he lifted off, put the gear back in the well and climbed out at a very high rate of speed and disappeared.

• 1:06:13Jesse Michels?

  That is so nuts. Yeah, well, he, I think, spent more time in space than anybody prior to him in the Mercury.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. He was one of the Mercury seven.

• 1:06:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Fascinating. Did he say anything else to you?

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  Well, about seeing when they were orbiting, he saw, well, not they, each astronaut orbited by themselves. And, you know, because they only had seven astronauts, they only had seven capsules, so.

• 1:06:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  Cooper said that he had witnessed, and I guess he was on the radio back with the ground control. And then they, like, they often do switch to another radio frequency to get off of the public radio frequencies.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Who the hell did we meet? Some guy from Australia that had been recording. And when they switched to a different channel, he was able to switch and, because he knew where that channel was. And he switched over to that channel and he.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  Recorded some of the di- of the interchange going back and forth. It's it's amazing how much information is out there and has been out there. But it was just in tighter circles. The circles are expanding now.

• 1:07:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I think that's right. And but Gordon Cooper is saying that he literally experienced the UFO while he was orbiting Earth.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:49Jesse Michels?

  As an astronaut.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:50Jesse Michels?

  In the Mercury missions.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:52Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

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• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  And he had seen that one in before the Mercury Program. Because the Mercury Program didn't start until, I think, like 59.

• 1:08:34Jesse Michels?

  Fifty eight, yeah.

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  Fifty eight, fifty nine. And so by 1969, when we landed on the moon, I was stationed over in Europe. I remember that night incredibly well because all the bars, you know, it was nighttime for us over there. All the bars were open and they all had these tiny little black and white TVs that were all snowy. And we're watching the astronauts on the moon. So we all grabbed our beers or whatever we were drinking and we went out in the streets. Thousands of us Americans were all toasting the guys on the moon with our beers.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  Ah, now the moon belongs to us because we got our flag there.

• 1:09:23Jesse Michels?

  That's funny. So, so, but did he just describe this UFO that he saw at all while he was orbiting Earth with the other astronauts?

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Uh, just that it had come uh in proximity with him. And I think he said it was green, if I'm not mistaken, but I don't know. I might be confusing that with other astronauts that had had encounters.

• 1:09:47Jesse Michels?

  So you guys still have some missing puzzle pieces with your own experience for a decade plus, right? For 12 or so years.

• 1:09:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, we never really started um looking at it until the late eighties.

• 1:10:02Jesse Michels?

  So what, what exactly kind of spurred?

• 1:10:05Speaker 02

  Catalyst?

• 1:10:06Jesse Michels?

  What was the catalyst to piece together?

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Jim and Jack, both at the same time, in two different states. Jim lived in Massachusetts, Jack in Vermont with his wife. They both started experiencing these identical nightmares and.

• 1:10:24Speaker 04

  Well, similar.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  Similar.

• 1:10:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know if they were identical, but.

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  Well, for lack of a better word, they were identical in as much as they had the same four people. The two twins, me and the other guy.

• 1:10:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And so back to the entanglement thing, you guys are experiencing the same.

• 1:10:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Jesse Michels?

  Things at the same time.

• 1:10:41Speaker 04

  He would, but even then we didn't know what was going on. I remember he used to say, man, I had like a really strange dream last night where there were like these things, these like humanoid things and, and I was like, yeah, Jack, come on, it's a nightmare, you know, I have them too.

• 1:10:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:59Speaker 04

  I have the same kind of dreams. It's just a nightmare. Don't worry about it.

• 1:11:02Jesse Michels?

  And it was you, Charlie, Jack and Chuck in the dream, just like.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:06Jesse Michels?

  It was you four at Allagash in the seventies.

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, well, that was the only time that we had ever done anything together like that. I mean.

• 1:11:16Jesse Michels?

  And so the dream is just you guys are sitting there and what, what happens?

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  Like being in a doctor's office.

• 1:11:22Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  Strange things are being done to you.

• 1:11:27Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  With no explanation.

• 1:11:30Jesse Michels?

  So you're, are you guys on a craft?

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  Well, we, we.

• 1:11:33Speaker 04

  Somewhere.

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Well, after the hypnotic regression, we just discovered that, yeah, we.

• 1:11:40Speaker 04

  It seems.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  We were on this craft apparently.

• 1:11:42Jesse Michels?

  So you're having dreams that are sort of adjacent to or.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  Flashbacks.

• 1:11:45Jesse Michels?

  You know, um, point to something else having occurred and then that catalyzes this desire to get a hypnotic progression.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Well, Jim had had it. An injury, uh, and he developed epilepsy, temporal lippic epilepsy. And he was having a lot of seizure activity. So he was at the Beth Israel Hospital, uh, being followed for that. And they were going to do a sleep deprivation study on him and he had all these wires glued to his head. And they said, while you're waiting around, you want to read a book or anything? And he said, yeah, yeah. So they brought in a tray of books and.

• 1:12:34Speaker 04

  And one of them was, um, Whitney Streber's Communion.

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:38Speaker 04

  And when I saw the face on the cover, I flipped out.

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:42Speaker 04

  I was like, why, why are you giving me this book to read? I don't want to read this. And I like, I, for some reason, I didn't really know why. It was just like this face, just.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Negative reactions.

• 1:12:54Speaker 04

  This extreme negative reaction. And I didn't want to have anything to do with it and I made a big scene. And then a few minutes later, one of the neurologists came in and said, uh, Jim,

• 1:13:06Speaker 04

  what just came down here? And I was like, I don't want to talk about this. And he was like, well, um, it's kind of weird, don't you think? And I was like, I don't care what you call it, you know? It's like, I don't know, I just don't like this. I don't want to look at this book anymore.

• 1:13:24Jesse Michels?

  It was like a visceral allergic reaction.

• 1:13:25Speaker 04

  More like a visceral reaction to it.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:13:28Speaker 04

  And, um, I got really upset.

• 1:13:32Speaker 04

  And then.

• 1:13:33Jesse Michels?

  You know, this is, oh, by the way, common for people, experiencers to see the cover, specifically of Communion, Whitely Streber's book. And a lot of stuff cut bubbles back up.

• 1:13:42Speaker 04

  Comes up.

• 1:13:43Jesse Michels?

  Comes back up. And sometimes it's this, eh, and then other times it's like, uh, whoa, that looks familiar.

• 1:13:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:13:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:50Speaker 04

  And, and so he. He left and, and after the test was done, the EEG, um, he came in, he said, you know, I'm going to ask you a kind of personal question. And I said, fine, what do you want to ask? He said, have you ever seen a UFO? And I remembered like looking at him like,

• 1:14:14Jesse Michels?

  What the hell?

• 1:14:15Speaker 04

  What the heck is going on here? And I said, well, yeah, as a matter of fact, I have.

• 1:14:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:20Speaker 04

  And he said, oh, you want to talk about it? And I said, um,

• 1:14:26Speaker 04

  not really, you know, I really want to kind of concentrate on the seizures. You know, I'm having these problems with seizures and I think that's a little bit more important than talking about UFOs. And he said, well, you know, I know this guy, one of my professional people I know, who it turned out to be John Mack.

• 1:14:46Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:14:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:14:47Jesse Michels?

  Who's this neurologist?

• 1:14:48Speaker 04

  He's, uh, what's his name? Jonathan Silverman, I think it was, but.

• 1:14:54Jesse Michels?

  And was he affiliated with?

• 1:14:55Speaker 04

  He was affiliated with Beth Israel.

• 1:14:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And Harvard Medical School.

• 1:15:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. So, um,

• 1:15:01Jesse Michels?

  Did you sense anything nefarious about him? Or you felt like he was an honest actor?

• 1:15:07Speaker 04

  No, I thought, he was an honest actor and, um, and so, uh, I said, uh, well, yeah, you know, I, I have had a UFO experience and, and I was telling him about these nightmares that I was having, thinking they were seizure activity. And he said, you know, Jim, I think you really need to talk to somebody like John Mack or somebody who

• 1:15:33Speaker 04

  deals with people who have seen UFOs. I could tell he was trying to be gentle about walking around this topic so I wouldn't flip out again. Cause I was, I was not happy. And so I said, you know, I really, I really want to just concentrate on the seizures, you know, let's concentrate on the seizures. So I tried to avoid it for a while. And then a few days later, he came into my room and said, look, you know, this guy named Ray Fowler, Raymond Fowler is gonna, he's a UFO investigator. And he's going to be at this conference, which was pretty close to where Cal and I live now.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  The library?

• 1:16:16Speaker 04

  The Marriott Hotel. There was a Marriott Hotel near us. And he said, he's going to be doing, he's going to be speaking at this, or he's going to have a book stand or something like that at this thing. And I, I want you to go and talk to him. And I was like, I don't want to talk to him. And he said, look, you really, I really want you to do this. So he talked me into doing it. And that's how I met Ray Fowler. And I remembered when I met him, he was selling some of his books. And he said, oh, you're, yeah, your doctor talked, called me. And, and so I'm expecting you. And I said, you know, and he goes, well, why don't you just start at the beginning and tell me about this UFO that you saw?

• 1:17:01Speaker 04

  So I told him about it. And at first, I thought he was bored. It was like, oh, yeah, I've heard this a million times. And then I said, I'm my Charlie and myself and my identical twin. And then he went, what did you just say? And I said, Charlie and I and this other guy and my identical twin. He said, oh, you have an identical twin? And I said, yes. And then he said, okay, I want you to start all over again. And then I could tell he was giving me his attention.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  Why was, why was that somehow?

• 1:17:33Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  In this role and? You got a base population and a control population. If you're gonna do any type of metal experimentation. So you have two identical twins.

• 1:17:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that boat, that's interesting. I also think from investigatory perspective, if he's speaking to you first, he can get your whole testimony, then he can isolate your brother. And then get the same testimony and kind of, you know, compare and contrast. And so it's probably from his vantage point, you know, uh, the potential for high confidence is really there.

• 1:18:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:08Jesse Michels?

  Which is exciting.

• 1:18:09Speaker 04

  And, and that's exactly what he did with the regression sessions. You know, they, we, we filed a report. That was the first thing we did. And then he said, you know, would you like to do hypnotic regression? Have you ever done, you ever been hypnotized? I said, no. I'm not even sure I can be hypnotized. I mean, isn't that kind of a

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  Control show or something?

• 1:18:30Speaker 04

  Some kind of weird thing, you know, that people believe in, but it's not really

• 1:18:34Jesse Michels?

  Not science.

• 1:18:35Speaker 04

  You know, it's not science. It's not, it's not accepted in a court of law. So I mean, how could it be legitimate? And he's like, no, it's just kind of this like super relaxed state. You know, it's not, no big deal. So I said, yeah, sure, we'll do it. So we all, four of us agreed to undergo um

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  Regression.

• 1:18:54Speaker 04

  Multiple regression sessions. And then we promised, we agreed that we would not talk about them between us. We would not report anything we remembered from these sessions.

• 1:19:06Jesse Michels?

  So no collusion.

• 1:19:07Speaker 04

  No collusion.

• 1:19:08Jesse Michels?

  Totally isolated.

• 1:19:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:10Jesse Michels?

  And what comes out of the regression session?

• 1:19:13Speaker 04

  Pretty similar stories.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, something that I didn't think had happened at all. I thought was, Christ, somebody, there's nothing to this story. We're out fishing. This weird light came up on top of us. We paddled away. We shined a flashlight at it. It flew away. That's the whole story. The whole end. Nothing to it. So after being hypnotized, then I was totally quiet. With myself even. I didn't even talk to myself. I'm, for like the next four hours, I'm just trying to

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Access, absorb and accept what I had just re encountered that I didn't know that I had encountered to begin with.

• 1:20:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  Why the fire had burned out? Why I knew that this thing was going to go at lightning speed? Uh, because of its power source, uh, works off of gravitational fields when it's within the limits of a planet that has gravitational fields.

• 1:20:25Jesse Michels?

  Describe in detail what transpired based on your regressions between you seeing this, you know, plasma ball that's glowing 75 yards away and then you guys kind of walking onto shore.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  Well, uh, first thing I remembered in my regression was

• 1:20:48Speaker 02

  looking at my toes and thinking, well, that's odd. What the hell happened to my socks? And then I'm thinking, where the hell are my shoes? Where the hell are my clothes? The fast thinker that I am, then it's like, where the hell am I?

• 1:21:06Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  And I'm like getting cold and freaked out and I'm like looking around and just beyond my toes, I can see Jack and Jim and this other guy sitting on this bench like they're waiting for a damn bus. And in my mind, I'm screaming, I couldn't articulate, but I'm like screaming, get off your asses, get over here, help me, get me loose. You know, what's going on?

• 1:21:35Speaker 02

  And at that time, I was probably about a first degree black belt in martial arts, shodokan karate, goshin jitsu, ishiru, pukalan.

• 1:21:50Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  And aikido. So I studied mostly aikido for many years, but at any rate, I could take care of myself in a fight, you know, I'd, I'd had people attack me with knives and weapons and I defended myself successfully. But here I am, butt naked.

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  And I'm as helpless as an infant.

• 1:22:14Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:15Speaker 02

  I I just it was rough for me to kind of cope with that for a while.

• 1:22:20Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:21Speaker 02

  And then I'm struggling to get up and I had that sensation of movement. I look up and I see this face bending down to look into my eyes. So I dropped my head to move as way as quickly as I could. And I probably only moved my head like another three or four inches till I was making contact with the surface I was laying on and I couldn't go backwards any further.

• 1:22:51Jesse Michels?

  So you were laying horizontally.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  On a table, yeah.

• 1:22:54Jesse Michels?

  On what did the table feel like?

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  Uh, kind of like a chilly, like this room is chilly.

• 1:23:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  It felt chilly, uh, very sterile, uh, very much like uh, an emergency room setting in a way. And then I recall this panel coming down from somewhere above my head. And it was over my chest and it basically covered my entire torso. And then this blue light came straight down out of it and it had like definite dimensional quality to it, the light did. I mean, it isn't like, like take your flashlight or anything and you shine it and the light spreads and travels.

• 1:23:47Speaker 02

  This was focused. It was localized into one shape and that was emitted straight down onto my torso. And there were like two beings to my left uh, doing whatever to this panel. I had this one at my head and another at my feet. And they began a clinical examination of me for lack of a another term at all.

• 1:24:24Jesse Michels?

  What did the beings look like? Like, what did the face look like when you're lifting your head up and you see this other head above yours?

• 1:24:31Speaker 02

  Leaning down?

• 1:24:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:33Speaker 02

  Well, I got I got artwork of it in the computer, but and and it's in the book as well. Uh, a sort of like a bulbous head with large eyes, no nose like us. And no mouth like us. It was sort of like a slight slit area in the chin. No ears like we have protruding. They were like just a lump. And uh, not like a lump or a blob or anything, but like a slight bump out from the skull.

• 1:25:11Jesse Michels?

  Are you freaking out?

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  Freaking out. I'm beyond freaking freaked out.

• 1:25:18Speaker 02

  I mean, here I was, an individual. I mean, hell, I I defended myself against seven armed kids. In Boston, a number of years ago, I had seven kids come at me with weapons. And, you know, I I had no fear of them whatsoever. I just told them they'd made an error in judgment. Just they I just had to let them know that they had truly made one.

• 1:25:48Jesse Michels?

  With your words and with your uh, your moves?

• 1:25:50Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I I let them know a thing or two, so.

• 1:25:53Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  But at any rate, I couldn't do diddly to protect myself or do anything. So I mean, at that moment on that craft.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  But I was told not to resist, not to fight. I wasn't in any danger. Just comply and everything will be all right. And I'm there like, oh. I can do that.

• 1:26:18Jesse Michels?

  Were you told telepathically?

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, when I was, well, you've, you've had the experience of being on a roller coaster. When it drops and your stomach stays up around your shoulders.

• 1:26:29Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  I had a physical sensation like that, but it wasn't my stomach. It was like my mind. When I looked into these eyes, it was like uh, two magnets grabbing one another instantly. And I mean, it was like, I understand what you're asking of me.

• 1:26:52Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  Uh, uh, I'm, I believe you.

• 1:26:56Jesse Michels?

  Instant, instantaneous comprehension of their intention.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:27:01Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And so I'm there like, huh, okay, well, I'm not going to get hurt. I'm going to get released. So, all right.

• 1:27:12Jesse Michels?

  Were they gray in color?

• 1:27:14Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They were grayish in color.

• 1:27:16Jesse Michels?

  Do you remember how tall?

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  Uh, under five feet, uh, spindly.

• 1:27:23Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  Uh, their hands had four digits.

• 1:27:27Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:27:28Speaker 02

  Uh, not five or three as they're portrayed in a lot of our science fiction films.

• 1:27:36Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:27:36Speaker 02

  Uh, their hands had four digits that hang straight down. And the center of the hand had like an articulation ability. So they would have four opposable digits. Where we only have one, our thumb. Uh, these, these beings had four opposable digits. And that was the way all their technology was geared to toward their hands.

• 1:28:03Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:04Speaker 02

  Uh, just like our world is designed because of our hands, how our hands work to use tools.

• 1:28:12Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:15Speaker 05

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• 1:28:45Speaker 02

  But they had like a clothing on that was, I didn't, for lack of a better word, it's like spandex type of appearance where like tightly conformed to their body. But they also, one of them also had this wand, like a magic wand that was maybe about this long or so. Jim can tell you more about that because of something that he attempted to do.

• 1:29:20Speaker 04

  I'll go back to the canoe. When we were paddling back to the, towards the beach, the campsite, the last thing I had remembered consciously was looking up and seeing this craft like right behind us. The next thing I remembered was going up to the canoe. But under hypnotic regression, I remembered it being right over on, like literally on top of us and that this beam came down around the canoe. And it was a hollow, like Charlie said earlier, it was, it was like a tube where our hose, where the sheath of the hose is made out of light and it was moving.

• 1:30:03Speaker 04

  Like when you see dust motes through sunlight, you know, it's moving, that's had this quality to it. But the inside was dark. And I remembered looking up. Straight up into the top of this tube and it was dark in there, but there was something moving. I could tell there was still something moving up there. And I remember thinking, oh, shit, this is bad. And then the next thing I remembered was being in a room. Chuck, Rack and Charlie were sitting on this bench. And I think, I think I remembered I was

• 1:30:44Speaker 04

  standing near it. And Jack was out in front of me with these beans. And then one of them had this wand that had a thin wand with a bulb on the end of it, like the end of your finger. And he was doing, he was pointing it at Jack and they were doing, they were like taking his wrist and rotating his wrists and his arm to see like how it rotated. I thought at first they were gonna hurt him because they were like trying to twist and turn it all these different ways. And I was like, oh, Christ, man, they're gonna break his arm. And, and then they had lifted his head back and they were like examining his

• 1:31:29Speaker 04

  throat. And they had another thing that looked like it was a little flashlight, like a pencil light flashlight that they were looking in his eyes with. And, and then they, I remembered them walking him away into this other area. It was like a hallway or something. And they took him in through there and then they came for me. And they were doing the same thing to me. And then when they went to walk me through this area, I didn't want to go because

• 1:32:10Speaker 04

  I was terrified. I thought, that's it, we're gonna get dissected. This is, this is not going well at all. And I didn't, I didn't get any messages saying, just relax, or we're not gonna hurt you. I didn't get anything like that. And I didn't want to go through this, this doorway or into this other area. And one of them that had this wand took it and they jammed it in my rib, in between my ribs, you know, and I was like, I, then I got. I didn't hear anything. It wasn't like a verbal message, but I just had this understanding that if I didn't cooperate, I was gonna be in trouble.

• 1:32:51Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:32:52Speaker 04

  That I had to cooperate.

• 1:32:54Jesse Michels?

  Was there any sort of surgical implantation of anything or removal of anything?

• 1:33:00Speaker 04

  Well, I remembered them taking sperm sample.

• 1:33:04Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:33:05Speaker 04

  And, and then at one point I remembered, this was over two sessions, the first session that they first hypnotic session, I remembered their bodies, but I couldn't get their faces. For some reason, I just could not see their faces, or I didn't want to see their faces. And then in the second session, their faces finally came through and I remember screaming, they're bugs. They look like bugs. They had this kind of, it looked like a, like a shape of an ant, you know, that had a bulbous top head and had these big eyes that were more laterally situated rather than in the front. No nose, slit fur mouth.

• 1:33:49Speaker 04

  And I couldn't tell if, if, if, if it was the actual head or whether there was a mask there of some sort. And, and I thought they looked, they reminded me of like an ant head or an insect head.

• 1:34:04Jesse Michels?

  Are there any details from each of your individual isolated regressions where you were kind of separated from each other? Any details that were inconsistent between your accounts or did they all line up?

• 1:34:16Speaker 04

  Some small details were different. Like I remember the, the device that they used to get the,

• 1:34:25Jesse Michels?

  semen.

• 1:34:25Speaker 04

  Store the semen. I remembered it being more like a tubular shape with a round bottom. And there was a neck, a smaller flange on the neck.

• 1:34:39Speaker 04

  Um, but like when they took the semen from me, I was like, I was so terrified. You know, my Johnson was like three inches inside of me. You know, it was like, you are, you are not getting there. And so then I had this, I got this impression that, um, things are gonna, you better change your ways or, you know. So I, I actually like forced myself to get that erection. And then they brought out this thing for me to, you know, ejaculate in. Whereas Jack remembered more of a conical shape

• 1:35:20Speaker 04

  device with a, with a wand coming like a spike coming out of it or a needle coming out of it that they actually inserted into his penis to get the sample. So that was different between his recollection and my recollection.

• 1:35:36Jesse Michels?

  Or it could have been different instrumentation or whatever.

• 1:35:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, it could have just been because of the way, I mean, I, I remembered they let me sit up to do it. I remember saying, I can't do this laying down. I got, you know, let me sit up and then I, I was able to function.

• 1:35:53Speaker 04

  And, um, and then, uh, there was another time, I don't know if they did the same thing to Jack or not. And I can't remember, but at one point I remembered laying on a, on a, on a table.

• 1:36:06Speaker 04

  And there were two, two beans at my shoulders behind me and two at my feet. And two necks on either side. And I remembered thinking, I mean, I was terrified. And I didn't trust these things. And so I, at one point, I'm almost ashamed to say, I thought, you know, maybe if I kill one, I can create a distraction and get out of here. I can escape. And as soon as I had that thought, cause I had these really like thin pencil like necks. And these like thin necks, I thought, oh, I could get my hand around there and just.

• 1:36:44Speaker 04

  And as soon as I had that thought, they, the ones who were near my shoulders and on the side, they moved away so fast, it was like a blur. And then um, one of the ones that were at my feet, just it was weird. He kinda like reached up in the air with his arm. They had these long, long, thin articulated arms. And when he came down, he had this thing in his hand that looked like a flattened hockey, it was like a hockey puck, but it wasn't like perfectly round. It was more like of an oval shape and it had rounded edges instead of the sharp edges a hockey puck has, but it was

• 1:37:24Speaker 04

  like the size of a hockey puck, maybe a little smaller. And they put one on, on the outside of each one of my shins and then I couldn't move my legs.

• 1:37:35Speaker 04

  Like no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't move my legs.

• 1:37:39Jesse Michels?

  Did you ask them any questions about who they were and where they were from?

• 1:37:43Speaker 04

  No, I didn't.

• 1:37:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, didn't even get a damn T-shirt.

• 1:37:48Speaker 04

  I mean.

• 1:37:49Speaker 02

  No souvenirs.

• 1:37:49Speaker 04

  You know, like I said earlier, it was like, I got the clear impression that these, whatever they were, they were following a procedure.

• 1:38:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:01Speaker 04

  It was, you know, step one, step two, step three, step four. I don't remember them putting me in any machines. Jack, they got a lot more out of Jack than they did me because I was like so terrified all the time that Ray thought I was gonna have a seizure. So they had to keep bringing me out of the hypnosis so I wouldn't have a seizure because I would be like freaking out during these sessions.

• 1:38:26Jesse Michels?

  But it was almost like the beings were in some sort of automated assembly line and they were following.

• 1:38:31Speaker 02

  In a sense, in a sense.

• 1:38:33Speaker 04

  They weren't totally automated.

• 1:38:35Speaker 02

  Just a footnote about what Jim had just mentioned about these discs being placed on his ankles. Uh, on his legs for several years thereafter, I don't know if it's that way now, hair didn't grow there. It was like a bald patch on his legs.

• 1:38:51Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:38:52Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:38:52Speaker 04

  Both shins.

• 1:38:53Speaker 02

  And his identical twin brother, Jack.

• 1:38:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  Had tumors growing in the exact spots on his legs.

• 1:39:00Jesse Michels?

  What? Tumors?

• 1:39:01Speaker 02

  Tumors.

• 1:39:02Jesse Michels?

  Benign or?

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  We never knew because the tumors were removed uh, at the teaching hospital where they removed them in Vermont. Uh, their pathology department was unable to ascertain what type of biological they were looking at. So they sent it to the Air Force Institute of Pathology down around Washington DC. It was signed for by a major, or no, by a Colonel, a doctor who was a rank of a Colonel. Cause they have one of the best pathology, uh, science labs in the world.

• 1:39:44Jesse Michels?

  Got it.

• 1:39:44Speaker 04

  Yeah. When they removed this thing on his shin, it looked like a piece of chewed bubble gum. Pink in color, hard. And they said in the report that it resembled the type of growth that is common when you have, um, uh, bone marrow taken out of a bone. You get this kind of tissue that grows on the wound. That's what they, they said. They didn't know what it was, but that was what it, that was the closest thing that they could describe it as.

• 1:40:20Jesse Michels?

  Whoa. Did any of you guys end up with any implants, anything inside of your body?

• 1:40:25Speaker 02

  I don't know. I, I used to have a head of hair.

• 1:40:30Speaker 02

  Does that count?

• 1:40:30Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:40:32Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. I, uh, I have like a small punch biopsy scar up near my scrotum that I had never known before. Uh, if you were to take like an old uh, pencil, the ones that had the brass barrel and the rubber eraser in them, pull the eraser out and stab it into something, take a plug out, that's the size.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  Diameter and very shallow, maybe about not quite an eighth of an inch deep. Uh, right here on the inside of my leg.

• 1:41:16Jesse Michels?

  You described the beings as clinical?

• 1:41:19Speaker 02

  Very clinical, yeah. We were like the chimps and they were like Jane Goodall.

• 1:41:23Jesse Michels?

  So they were about their business, kinda?

• 1:41:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, right. The best analogy I can come up with is like when scientists go to the, you know, Arctic. And they see a polar bear and they dart him. And then while he's anesthetized, they measure his teeth and look at his, you know?

• 1:41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, what's that? What's a polar bear gotta say about what happened to it?

• 1:41:45Speaker 04

  I remembered when, under the hypnosis, I, like, the way I saw things was weird. It was like I had tunnel vision. I could see clearly you. But out here, everything was fuzzy and unclear.

• 1:42:02Jesse Michels?

  Did all of the hypnotic regressions line up? Cause all four of you did hypnotic regression?

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, over a period of about, almost a year.

• 1:42:12Jesse Michels?

  Do you have the audio?

• 1:42:13Speaker 02

  Uh, Ray certainly has. I don't.

• 1:42:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:42:17Jesse Michels?

  Would I be able to listen to that?

• 1:42:19Speaker 04

  It's the, some of the hypnotic regressions are, are word for word in his book.

• 1:42:23Jesse Michels?

  Would I be able to listen to the audio?

• 1:42:26Speaker 02

  Well, you'd have to get Ray, if he even still has that stuff.

• 1:42:30Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:42:31Speaker 02

  Uh, but if you do go to the library or get a copy of his book, The Allagash Abductions. Um, it has direct quotes from the regression.

• 1:42:43Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:42:44Speaker 02

  Uh, questions as well as our responses.

• 1:42:47Speaker 04

  And their analysis.

• 1:42:48Speaker 02

  And their analysis of them as well.

• 1:42:50Speaker 04

  It's the best book on the case.

• 1:42:51Jesse Michels?

  Did John Mack oversee any, or did, did John Mack review any of the, uh, hypnotic regression audio? Or any of the material there?

• 1:43:01Speaker 02

  I don't know what John did.

• 1:43:03Speaker 04

  Sure he must have over the years, cause we'd known John for many years, twen- over 20 years.

• 1:43:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, over 25 before he died.

• 1:43:11Speaker 04

  Um, after we had, after Ray had gotten finished with his investigation, I was, um, he said it. Cause during, during the investigation, he said, I don't want you to read any books. I don't want you to talk about it. To one another or really anybody else, because I don't wanna like. Pollute.

• 1:43:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, hopefully now he would, you know, after having written his book, hopefully the audio, the raw source material, he would sort of open source because I think if anybody, you know, if anybody should be in possession of it, it should be you guys to be on.

• 1:43:45Speaker 02

  I mean, we could have purchased the complete manuscript. I mean, and that includes all of the hypnotic regressions transcribed verbatim, word for word.

• 1:43:58Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  Uh, but you know, that thing was like literally

• 1:44:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, they're really

• 1:44:03Speaker 02

  almost a foot thick

• 1:44:04Jesse Michels?

  Well, hey.

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  Of paper.

• 1:44:06Jesse Michels?

  Now we have a little thing called AI and you run it, you run it through and you just say, you know, describe, you know, these accounts and give us a summary and then you can query it and you, so I think, I think it'd be really cool to, to get these things kind of digitized and, you know, and then run it through the AI and you'd be able to ask it questions and stuff.

• 1:44:27Speaker 02

  Sounds like you've found a project for yourself.

• 1:44:29Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I'm ready. Let's do it.

• 1:44:31Speaker 04

  Get ahold of Ray.

• 1:44:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. I'll try to get in touch with Ray and that'd be cool. Um, fascinating. What, what was John Mack like? Uh, I, uh, am a long time, you know, admirer of his, obviously, you know, rest in peace.

• 1:44:43Speaker 04

  Well, I went to his, his support group for a while after Ray was done with his investigation. Um,

• 1:44:50Jesse Michels?

  And Jim, real quick, just for the audience, for basic context, John Mack was the head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department and, uh, brilliant guy. He actually even wrote the Pulitzer Prize winning, um, I believe Lawrence of Arabia.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  Was an expert on him.

• 1:45:06Jesse Michels?

  The, the Prince of Disorder and, um, and as really kind of a mystic in his own right, but also obviously academically as credentialed as it gets. And towards the end of his career, he started to, uh, cause he was a clinician, see people who had missing time and get into the whole, you know, alien abduction phenomena and was actually childhood friends serendipitously with Bud Hopkins, um, who was this, you know, amazing aggregator of a lot of these experiences himself. So go on.

• 1:45:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. So anyway, my impression of John, when I first met him. Was I knew that he was a psychiatrist. And he was affiliated with Harvard and he had credentials up the kazoo. And so when I went to his support groups, I noticed that they were in my, from my perspective, I saw two different camps of people. One camp, which I considered myself a member of was the nuts and bolts. I called it the nuts and bolts. You know, I, I want to see physical evidence. I want to see physical beings. And then the other camp was more of a like,

• 1:46:25Speaker 04

  people who thought that they were most that they're, that their experiences were more ethereal or multi-dimensional beings that weren't physical, but communicated.

• 1:46:39Jesse Michels?

  More of a spiritual. Consciousness.

• 1:46:40Speaker 04

  Conscious, consciousness based. And that these people seem to think that the aliens were our saviors, that they were going to save the human race and they were here to uplift our consciousness to a level where there's no more hate or war and all that stuff. Which was fine. I didn't have a problem with it. I mean, but I did notice that. And I think John was more the second camp because of his training as a psychiatrist. He, you know, because what a psychiatrist's job to do, their job is to heal people, you know, and these people all had like serious problems dealing with this stuff.

• 1:47:25Speaker 04

  It's like, even though they, even though we all believe that we actually, that these experiences were real for us, it still creates all kinds of psychological problems, you know, how to deal with other people who don't, who think you're crazy.

• 1:47:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:41Speaker 04

  Or I think you're, you know, subhuman for some reason. There's something wrong with you because you have these beliefs that are out of the box. And so it's, it, my impression of John Mack was that he saw it as his

• 1:47:56Jesse Michels?

  mission.

• 1:47:56Speaker 04

  His mission to help these people become, you know, self.

• 1:48:02Speaker 04

  Actualized again, where they could be, they could live with their experiences without pain or fear or anxiety.

• 1:48:10Jesse Michels?

  Kind of reintegrated back into society and probably simultaneously.

• 1:48:15Speaker 04

  And still be able to live with their experiences, you know, because that was, that was the difference between him and the rest of the commune, the rest of the psychiatric community, rest of the psychiatric community, especially at Harvard, which is why they tried to kick them out.

• 1:48:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:30Speaker 04

  Was that, no, these people are, you know, they're, they're lunar. There's something wrong with these people. John was saying, look, I've given them every kind of psychiatric and psychological tests I can think of. They're all coming out as normal people.

• 1:48:44Jesse Michels?

  And neither of you had any kind of mental health history prior?

• 1:48:49Speaker 04

  No, the only mental problems I had was from the seizures. Um, because I'd have auras, you know, I'd smell things or hear things.

• 1:49:00Jesse Michels?

  Sure. Um, how many beings were on the craft?

• 1:49:06Speaker 05

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• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:49:37Jesse Michels?

  Hard to say.

• 1:49:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it really would be because there were people or beings in the like control room area that we were ushered through on our way into the exam area. And as we left, we passed because that was where I inquired about their power system, their propulsion system.

• 1:50:01Jesse Michels?

  And so you've, you learned some stuff directly from them about the propulsion system or?

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  Well, I was explained the way you would explain something to a six-year-old, you know, that it, it operates in a similar fashion to the way a submarine can work at different atmospheres in the water, different levels by the amount of air that it keeps in its inner hull. To maintain that depth. And they could match gravitational fields.

• 1:50:37Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:38Speaker 02

  And so that was the way they were sort of examining example A to what we do. This is.

• 1:50:46Jesse Michels?

  So like.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  Where your submarine works, this is the way our craft works when it's in in a planetary gravitational area.

• 1:50:57Jesse Michels?

  So it would like you mentioned with the submarine, you have a certain amount of air between the inner and outer hull, which manages the depth. And you're saying that they're doing something similar where they're modulating.

• 1:51:08Speaker 02

  Gravitational in fields.

• 1:51:11Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:51:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:12Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. Very. Yeah. Well, it's good to, you know, think about that. I'll mull that over.

• 1:51:18Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, it's just like we can do things magnetically that where you take the two very powerful magnets and you have the same polarity. You have all this resistance if you try touching them to one another. Uh, and their ability was to match in a gravitational field to propel them away from from a denser field to a less dense field. I don't know. It's the only way I can think of.

• 1:51:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Did you have any sense of where they came from, why they were taking, you know, samples from you guys?

• 1:52:04Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:52:05Jesse Michels?

  It's interesting because the kind of, you know, gamete, you know, semen and egg sample thing comes up a lot. That's very common. It's almost like there's some intergenerational alien breeding program. And that's kind of where you end up with a lot, a lot of these guys.

• 1:52:20Speaker 02

  Don't, don't we do the exact thing, same thing to animals?

• 1:52:25Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:52:25Speaker 02

  On our planet?

• 1:52:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we domesticate animals all the time. We breed them. We create new species.

• 1:52:31Speaker 04

  Do the same thing with people and like, you know, dynasty families.

• 1:52:35Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm. It's wild to think that, but it's it's true. And sometimes I think about these gray alien beings. And you think about what an evolutionary biologist would say a human is evolving into, given that we're being domesticated right now. That is not a controversial thing to say. We are, you know, testosterone is dropping off a cliff. Uh, sperm count is dropping off a cliff for men. We're losing, you know, the melanin in our our skin. That happens over a long period of time. So you end up with these beings that, you know, they lose the melanin in their skin, that the their prefrontal cortex is larger. Because decision making is probably more important with the advent of, you know, the AI white collar work age.

• 1:53:16Jesse Michels?

  Their ears and nose become vestigial. We're not hunter gathering. Their eyes become more slit like because we use more screens. And their their bodies are sort of wiry and spindly because our physical bodies become less important and they develop some sort of, you know, latent telepathic power, which you're now seeing, you know, the telepathy tapes and like, you know, people starting to lend more rigorous scientific credence to the idea that maybe we we have this mind matter sort of thing. And so they've selected for all of the stuff that you would expect humanity to select for. It's very interesting.

• 1:53:49Speaker 04

  That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've heard from some people at some of the conferences where they believe that they're actually us from the future.

• 1:53:57Jesse Michels?

  Yes. Yeah, that exactly. There's a guy named Mike Masters. And then I somehow think that, you know, that's a really interesting theory that's important. And then it's somehow too simple. Like, there's something else going on too, you know? But it's it's always hard to theorize.

• 1:54:12Speaker 04

  The problem I always have is the interdimensional stuff against the physical. I mean, if they if if they can travel interdimensionally, why do they have craft? What do they need a craft for?

• 1:54:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:26Speaker 04

  You know, it's like, what?

• 1:54:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's almost like some of these things are symbolic memes that change over time. And that would be the Jacques Vallée idea.

• 1:54:35Speaker 04

  I mean, are they is is that craft that we saw really something physical or just something they wanted us to see as physical?

• 1:54:43Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:54:44Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:54:45Jesse Michels?

  Did did any of you? So, okay, so the the the physical evidence would be like the ankle, your hair not growing around your ankle. Your brother having

• 1:54:53Speaker 02

  Tumors in the same spot.

• 1:54:54Jesse Michels?

  Tumors in the exact same spot. Anything else as far as like a physical, you know, remnant of the

• 1:55:00Speaker 02

  Well, one of the things that

• 1:55:04Speaker 02

  Has always fascinated me personally. Was the fact that all of us, or the three of us. Most certainly had uh, major changes in the direction of our lives and our artwork. After the Allagash, where I was training myself to be a school teacher. To work with children, teaching art. I ended up becoming a medical artist, working with medical scientists, medical researchers. And being aware of all kinds of new technologies. The

• 1:55:47Speaker 02

  technology I mentioned that they use to look at our chests or at our torsos.

• 1:55:56Speaker 02

  When I was a medical photographer, I would use ultraviolet light sources and ultraviolet film. Infrared film and infrared light sources to photograph human bodies. Um, because with ultraviolet light, you can see through the skin and see the blood vessels much clearer than you can with your naked eyes.

• 1:56:28Speaker 02

  So we use magnetic fields to look inside the human body now to look at soft tissue. And your MRIs. Prior to that was your X-rays and then CAT scans, then you can use ultrasound.

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  Sonic waves and

• 1:56:48Speaker 04

  Tomograms, the whole nine yards.

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  All these different radiological tools. So I was talking with a physician about this. And, uh, and he said, well, he said, it's just like when, you know, uh, defibrillators first showed up in the world. You know, they were these.

• 1:57:13Speaker 02

  You know, experimental paddles that you touch the heart or, you know, to restart the, the heart's function. And that all of these technologies that these beings have, we're slowly catching up. I mean, if you stop and, any rational person stop and think, in 1903, which was 123 years ago, two bicycle builders from Ohio did the first manned flight. Not a glider, they weren't gliding from a high elevation to a different

• 1:57:58Speaker 02

  elevation or a different location. They took off from a low elevation and landed at a higher elevation. That was flight. Sixty-six years after that, we were walking on the moon in 66 years. Now, these entities, these beings, that we don't know where they come from, uh, they have science that's, you know, even patting us on the back, saying thousands of years ahead of us.

• 1:58:40Speaker 02

  They might be hundreds of thousands of years ahead of us. Uh, the Milky Way Galaxy, there are more stars and planets in the Milky Way Galaxy than grains of sand on planet Earth. That's what I've been told by astrophysicists and that is a number that just is almost incomprehensible for me. And, uh, that, uh, the technologies that we have and we're developing, like sound technology without speakers.

• 1:59:25Speaker 02

  Bone conducting headphones.

• 1:59:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:28Speaker 02

  Send the vibrations through your cheekbones. And I hear better with these than I do listening to people.

• 1:59:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's fascinating. You can bypass the ear canal through vibration.

• 1:59:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:59:40Jesse Michels?

  Beethoven went deaf famously and he would chew on this rod. And that would allow him to hear once he went deaf, which was obviously very important for him as this amazing composer. Speaking of very advanced technology, maybe the most shocking thing that you said, Charlie, right before we started rolling, which I got so excited about is I've been researching this guy named John Norsen.

• 2:00:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:04Jesse Michels?

  And he is, you know, this interesting engineer who has this Lockheed patent for essentially how to fly a UFO with your mind. How to use sort of biofeedback from the brain in order to control, remote control, remote pilot a craft. And he talks about brain prints, the idea that we have fingerprints, but you might also have a unique kind of a you know, electromagnetic signature, just like iris or whatever.

• 2:00:32Speaker 02

  Iris, yeah.

• 2:00:33Jesse Michels?

  So fascinating guy who seems well ahead of his time. And I have to think if there is, you know, a legacy UFO crash retrieval program, which I do believe they are either tracking him, you know, and he's now since, you know, he's passed away, but they were either tracking him or they were working directly with him would be my guess. And so this is fascinating because you said that John Norsen, you spoke to John Norsen and he was at Allagash in the 19, in 1976 in August, when you guys were there and experienced your abduction.

• 2:01:08Speaker 02

  That's what he said.

• 2:01:09Speaker 04

  He read our report to the Ranger that same day. That's what he told us.

• 2:01:15Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, he read your report to the Ranger that same day? And what, what did he say he was doing there?

• 2:01:22Speaker 04

  He said he was doing a TTR, um, tag, trace, retrieve, exercise with a subcutaneous device that they were testing that they could

• 2:01:35Speaker 02

  Monitor.

• 2:01:35Speaker 04

  They could monitor field agents. You know, we'd tell them like blood pressure, heart rate, that sort of stuff.

• 2:01:42Jesse Michels?

  So he would

• 2:01:43Speaker 04

  Location.

• 2:01:44Jesse Michels?

  What exactly, he would put like this like RFID chip or something on some other military folk? And they would sort of, you know, uh, go off and into Allagash and they were testing to see how well they could track these people.

• 2:01:57Speaker 04

  They could track them. Exactly.

• 2:01:59Jesse Michels?

  That's so fascinating.

• 2:02:00Speaker 04

  That's what he told us.

• 2:02:02Jesse Michels?

  And does any part of you guys think that? Cause you know, I think about some of these narratives with like, you know, UFOs showing up around nuclear sites. And I don't, it might not be a coincidence that you're a, you know, you're, uh, uh, in the Navy in a nuclear capacity.

• 2:02:19Speaker 04

  There's a nuclear air force base or was at the time in the seventies up in Northern Maine. What was the name, what was the name of that base? Do you remember?

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  Oh, who wasn't an air force guy?

• 2:02:28Jesse Michels?

  Loring.

• 2:02:29Speaker 04

  Loring.

• 2:02:30Speaker 02

  Loring.

• 2:02:30Jesse Michels?

  Loring Air Force Base.

• 2:02:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:02:33Jesse Michels?

  Um, but this was near, was it near Allagash?

• 2:02:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, ninety, ninety miles away from Allagash.

• 2:02:37Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:02:38Speaker 04

  In Northern Maine, and it was a secret nuclear base. They had a, uh, uh, episode, it was either nineteen seventy-five or nineteen seventy-six, where craft were coming over the base and these laser type beams were coming out and they were mapping the nuclear stockpiles.

• 2:02:56Jesse Michels?

  And this is around the time that you guys had your experience, ninety miles away.

• 2:02:59Speaker 04

  I don't know if it was around the same time.

• 2:03:01Jesse Michels?

  You said seventy-five or seventy-six.

• 2:03:02Speaker 04

  Seventy-five, seventy-six, yeah.

• 2:03:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, that's around the same time.

• 2:03:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:03:06Speaker 02

  Well, there's like, uh, uh, many reported incidents over, uh, our nuclear missile sites where these craft would appear above them. And then all the missiles go offline, all their computers shut down.

• 2:03:24Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 2:03:24Speaker 02

  And, uh, they go into a massive.

• 2:03:30Speaker 04

  Freak out.

• 2:03:30Speaker 02

  Freak out.

• 2:03:31Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah, I've interviewed a lot of those guys firsthand and I think they're all legit. So 90 miles away, you had this air force base, they reported UFOs showing up within a year or two of your experience with lasers shooting out of the UFOs seeming to sort of, you know, track or do.

• 2:03:47Speaker 04

  Well, they were, they were definitely mapping the bunkers.

• 2:03:50Jesse Michels?

  And that's a common thing you hear. Yeah, that they're sort of, you know,

• 2:03:55Jesse Michels?

  testing the tip of the spear of human defense and, you know, knowing, you know, either to protect ourselves, protect their resources, you know, some of the people in the national security states say there might be, you know, doing ISR and doing recon. I don't know. I don't believe that.

• 2:04:11Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 2:04:12Jesse Michels?

  I don't believe that. Yeah, yeah. I don't buy the whole, the, the idea that they're a threat. And, you know, I think they're.

• 2:04:17Speaker 02

  They, oh, if they wanted to do something.

• 2:04:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:21Speaker 02

  We couldn't do diddly.

• 2:04:22Jesse Michels?

  That's right. And they would have done it years ago. They, why, why, it's like, they are so advanced. It's like, yeah, why do they need to like, you know, play around with us before, before, you know, it's like, what, at what point in your ISR, you know, recon, do you say, okay, we can like, take these guys out? Like, they can, they could clearly take us out now if they wanted to.

• 2:04:43Speaker 04

  They could have taken us out a long time ago.

• 2:04:45Speaker 02

  I mean, good or, yeah, you look back at artwork from the Renaissance era, and you have a lot of depictions of like UFOs in some of these pieces of artwork.

• 2:04:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah, no, it's clearly a, it's a, across civilizations and across millennia phenomenon.

• 2:05:04Speaker 02

  So if they were gonna threaten us, I mean, they would have done us way before the Neanderthal were bred out.

• 2:05:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:13Speaker 02

  And that's another thing. A lot of people think the Neanderthal were killed by Cro-Magnon and Homo sapiens sapien, which is what the species we are. But they got literally screwed out of existence.

• 2:05:29Jesse Michels?

  I want to stick with this John Norsey thing because I think this is really interesting. So he was doing TTR, this sort of tracking thing of other, you know, fellow military combatants or something, seeing if they'd go out in the field and track them.

• 2:05:42Speaker 04

  I believed him. I mean, he was, he's, I got to know John pretty good.

• 2:05:46Jesse Michels?

  How'd you meet him?

• 2:05:47Speaker 04

  We met him at

• 2:05:49Speaker 02

  Mutual friend of ours down in Newport.

• 2:05:51Speaker 04

  Down in Newport.

• 2:05:52Speaker 02

  Would bring together experiencers. Uh, and she's somebody that

• 2:05:59Jesse Michels?

  Was he an experiencer, Norsey?

• 2:06:02Speaker 04

  No, he was, he was working with an artist in Jamestown across the bay.

• 2:06:08Jesse Michels?

  What was he doing when you met him? Do you know what his job was?

• 2:06:13Speaker 02

  John, I don't really know what his job was. He was telling us things and then he said, well, I can't really tell you what I'm doing now because I would probably end up dead in some hotel room somewhere. And I was thinking

• 2:06:28Speaker 04

  What happened to him?

• 2:06:29Speaker 02

  And I was

• 2:06:29Jesse Michels?

  He ended up dead in a hotel room?

• 2:06:31Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 2:06:32Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 2:06:32Speaker 02

  Down Tennessee, was it?

• 2:06:34Speaker 04

  I don't remember.

• 2:06:35Speaker 02

  Somewhere, I think it was

• 2:06:36Speaker 04

  They claimed it was a heart attack, but he told us at Anne's.

• 2:06:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:39Speaker 04

  He said, cause he was talking a lot about stuff that everybody knew he shouldn't be talking about.

• 2:06:45Speaker 02

  Well, this seemed like science fiction.

• 2:06:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, it seemed like science. I even said to him, you know, John.

• 2:06:51Speaker 02

  Isn't that a bit out there?

• 2:06:53Speaker 04

  Talking about this.

• 2:06:53Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:06:54Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:06:54Speaker 04

  Cause he was drinking, you know, I mean, everybody was drinking wine and he was and

• 2:07:00Jesse Michels?

  What did he say? It was his job title in the seventies in the, in seventy six when he was at Allagash?

• 2:07:09Jesse Michels?

  Do you remember?

• 2:07:09Speaker 02

  Primarily a research function.

• 2:07:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think he was, he said he was doing government research.

• 2:07:14Jesse Michels?

  Government research.

• 2:07:15Speaker 04

  Working with the military because they were, you know, TTR-ing agents in the field.

• 2:07:20Jesse Michels?

  And no part of you guys thinks that your experience was some sort of smokescreen for like covert government experimentation?

• 2:07:29Speaker 02

  I don't think so, no.

• 2:07:31Speaker 04

  I asked John that.

• 2:07:32Jesse Michels?

  You asked, you asked.

• 2:07:33Speaker 04

  I asked John that. I said, John, you know, uh, is what we saw up there and I mean, did you, did we like stumble into something that we shouldn't have stumbled into? And then you nailed us and, and hypnotized this or gave us drugs or something to make us believe that we had this abduction experience to cover your butt? He said, no.

• 2:07:57Jesse Michels?

  And he believed in what he said?

• 2:07:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, I could tell he was telling the truth. He said, we wouldn't do that. We'd, we would just go away.

• 2:08:02Jesse Michels?

  No, I mean.

• 2:08:03Speaker 04

  Leave you with a story. Nobody's gonna believe.

• 2:08:05Jesse Michels?

  For sure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's not like you guys have like had an easy time since you

• 2:08:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know.

• 2:08:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it came out with your story. No, I, I almost, I almost wonder if the You know, meta phenomena of the UFOs showing up around the tip of the spear of human defense and ingenuity, they're showing up at nuclear sites and at particle accelerators and things where we are literally messing with sort of spacetime itself. You could imagine them maybe being interested in a, you know, chip tracking, uh, you know, human experiment and them showing up around that. So, you know, I think the kind of easy lazy skeptic thing would be to say that, oh, it's a, it's a smokescreen for some MKUltra thing.

• 2:08:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:08:49Jesse Michels?

  But maybe the more interesting and possibly true narrative would be that their activities, which were seemingly covert, might have attracted the phenomena itself.

• 2:08:59Speaker 04

  Well, that's what John, that's what John told me.

• 2:09:01Jesse Michels?

  There's Alexander Graham Bell. Let's go down and listen to what he's saying. Exactly. But you're saying that's what John literally told you?

• 2:09:06Speaker 04

  That's what he believed too.

• 2:09:08Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting.

• 2:09:09Speaker 04

  That the, the experiments that he was conducting was, may have been just attracting these things.

• 2:09:16Jesse Michels?

  When did he, and he ended up dead in a hotel room?

• 2:09:19Speaker 04

  I forget what year it was. In fact, that was, it followed a really weird email that I had gotten from him because he, he had contacted me via email. You know, he was a, he was an RV-er. He was one of the early RV-ers.

• 2:09:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:35Speaker 04

  And, uh, remote viewers.

• 2:09:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:37Speaker 04

  And, um, he had sent me an email and said, and some of the other people from Ann's, and he said, listen, I'm giving a lecture on my latest research at the Naval College in Newport. Do you want to, do you want a VIP pass to come and, and attend it? And I was like, oh, yeah. So he said, okay, I'll get it all set up. And then at the end of his email, you know, he was into, I forget what the term is for this kind of use of language.

• 2:10:07Jesse Michels?

  Semiotics.

• 2:10:08Speaker 04

  Semiotics. Yeah. He was really into that.

• 2:10:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:11Speaker 04

  And, um, at the last sentence in his email said, um, uh, Norse, uh, I, he said, I, I RV'd the upcoming.

• 2:10:25Speaker 04

  Lecture, John not heard nor seen.

• 2:10:31Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:10:32Speaker 04

  And I remember calling Ann and saying, hey, Ann, like, what the heck is this last sentence mean? John not heard nor seen. I know he's in the semiotics and stuff, so you know, not nor seen is his last name. But John not heard nor seen. And then just like two weeks after that, he was found dead in a motel room.

• 2:10:52Jesse Michels?

  Jesus Christ. So that was some sort of code where it's like he he remote viewed his own death.

• 2:10:57Speaker 04

  And he wasn't there.

• 2:10:58Jesse Michels?

  And this was code to say he's not heard nor seen.

• 2:11:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, what else could that mean?

• 2:11:03Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:11:05Speaker 04

  I mean, what?

• 2:11:06Jesse Michels?

  And this is nuts. And he probably was working on program stuff.

• 2:11:11Speaker 04

  Who knows? I mean, he was working at that time with this artist, this amazing artist in Jamestown. Duncan Laurie is his name. He's a sculptor, glass artist, but at that time, John was working with him on life, energy, arors around like rocks and plants and things like that.

• 2:11:33Jesse Michels?

  Bioenergetics.

• 2:11:33Speaker 04

  Bioenergetics, yeah.

• 2:11:35Jesse Michels?

  Very interesting.

• 2:11:37Speaker 02

  Very, yeah.

• 2:11:38Jesse Michels?

  Well, this is a wild and very interesting interview. I feel like we'd go on forever, but Charlie, you had, uh, cause you were in the Navy, you had a very interesting, you know, UFO experience that that I want to get into.

• 2:11:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, in May of 1970, uh, we were off the coast of Spain, uh, doing what we had gone out there to do. And, uh, it was just after we've knocked off working for the day, uh, waiting for the call to evening meal. Uh, there were about 24 of us that went up on the main deck. Have cigarettes, cook around, kill some time until it's time to go eat. We had a commissioned officer who was a lieutenant, uh, a highest ranking.

• 2:12:33Speaker 02

  Enlisted, which was a chief petty officer, and then descending ranks from there. And one of the guys said, what the F is that? And so we all kind of like turned to look toward the stern of the ship. And just as I was looking back, I saw these two lights coming toward us. I mean, faster than you could swing your arm from your shoulder to directly in front of you and come to a stop. These things were going faster than that and came to a complete stop.

• 2:13:14Speaker 02

  And we observed them for almost two minutes, two full minutes. And one of these points of lighter spheres ascended so quickly that it went from like a point of light to a line and was gone. Just snip, snip. But less time than it did for me to say that, snip, dip, and it was gone. And then about thirty seconds later, the other one did the exact same thing. And they both went vertical, straight up so fast, you just couldn't believe what you were looking at.

• 2:14:00Speaker 02

  So we turned to the officer that was there and we said, sir, what the hell was that? And he looked at the chief, then he looked at us, and he looked at the chief, and he looked back at us and he said,

• 2:14:13Speaker 02

  if I were you guys, I wouldn't say anything to anyone anyhow, because no one's going to believe you. And this topic's closed. And with that, he turned and ran up into officer's country. And I, I've never forgotten that verbatim quote, you know?

• 2:14:30Speaker 02

  Nobody's gonna believe you anyhow.

• 2:14:34Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think-

• 2:14:34Speaker 02

  This topic is closed.

• 2:14:36Jesse Michels?

  I think they believe you guys now because you know, now you have Directors of National Intelligence, Directors of the CIA. Presidents saying, "We're looking into this stuff."

• 2:14:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, you got pilots using their cell phones to photograph frickin' UFOs that aren't from here.

• 2:14:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's uh, the evidence is becoming pretty overwhelming and I think the consensus is rapidly shifting. And um, you said, uh, and this is I think gonna be also, uh, if we find corroboration for this, really, you know, healthy vindication for, you know, Allagash as well.

• 2:15:11Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 2:15:12Jesse Michels?

  May 1970 USS Holland is where this occurred.

• 2:15:16Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:15:17Jesse Michels?

  And so-

• 2:15:18Speaker 02

  Off the coast of Spain.

• 2:15:19Jesse Michels?

  Off the coast of Spain and this thing was seen on the starboard side and maybe it's still in the logs. So to anybody who has any experience with the Freedom of Information Act and knows how to, you know, send those requests, try to, try to get this stuff out.

• 2:15:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you can access that stuff, I'd be certainly interested in knowing what was reported.

• 2:15:40Jesse Michels?

  Awesome.

• 2:15:41Speaker 04

  Can we talk a little bit about, a little bit more about how this experience has affected our artwork?

• 2:15:47Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:15:48Speaker 04

  Because um, there were two things that changed. Well, we talked a little bit about yours-

• 2:15:54Speaker 02

  Just touching face and Jack's obsession about mathematics.

• 2:15:58Speaker 04

  I mean, this, this happened immediately after we returned to Boston. And uh, before we went to the Allagash, Jack was doing um-

• 2:16:08Speaker 02

  Endangered species.

• 2:16:10Speaker 04

  Well, he was doing like really tight kind of um illustrative silk screen designs. One of them is in the uh, Museum of uh-

• 2:16:19Speaker 02

  Two.

• 2:16:19Speaker 04

  Museum of Art in Washington DC.

• 2:16:21Speaker 02

  Poster and Devil's pup.

• 2:16:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know if the Devil's pup fish is, but um, anyway, and then he was also doing these kind of like um-

• 2:16:32Speaker 04

  What kind of painting it is abstract expressionist painting of landscapes? That was the kind of work he was in. And then like immediately after coming back from the Allagash, he like just became obsessed with this, this like all this kind of weird mathematical stuff. He was building models of like Kazo dodecahedrons out of straws.

• 2:17:00Speaker 02

  Whoa. He was incorporating grids in all of his artwork and in very incredibly intriguing ways.

• 2:17:11Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:17:12Speaker 02

  And that was one piece that I really love. I would like to know whatever happened to it. Tossed grid salad.

• 2:17:18Speaker 04

  Okay, that's Craig, a friend of ours.

• 2:17:20Speaker 02

  Oh, Craig's got that?

• 2:17:21Speaker 04

  Anyway, um, and he was like, I, you know, we live together, you know, and I'm his twin. So like no secrets.

• 2:17:30Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:17:30Speaker 04

  And I'd be like, Jack, what the hell is going on here? You know, like, what are you doing? And he'd go, I don't know, but I have to do this. I have to do this. And, and like, it just like kept going and going and going. And years later, somebody came, our friend Mike Asherman came to the house. This was got, this guy's like a brilliant.

• 2:17:55Speaker 02

  MIT scientist.

• 2:17:56Speaker 04

  MIT programmer and scientist. He helped them build their Tokamak at MIT. And he came over one night and he was looking at Jack's artwork and he goes, you know, I know what this is, Jack. This is, um, get this book, uh, Secrets of the

• 2:18:12Speaker 02

  World Grid.

• 2:18:13Speaker 04

  World Grid and Anti, uh, Anti-Gravity by David Hatcher Childress.

• 2:18:18Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:18:19Speaker 04

  And that, go to this pay, this chapter in here, you'll see Jack's, what's the math behind all of this stuff.

• 2:18:28Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 2:18:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:18:29Jesse Michels?

  And this guy's building Tokamak?

• 2:18:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:18:31Jesse Michels?

  Wild. So it's almost like your brother was channeling

• 2:18:35Speaker 04

  Something.

• 2:18:36Jesse Michels?

  Frontier science.

• 2:18:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. And the same thing happened to me. When I, when I came back, before I went up to the Allagash, I was making production pottery. I was making bowls and cups and

• 2:18:46Speaker 02

  Platters and plates.

• 2:18:48Speaker 04

  Platters and plates and things and teapots. And when I came, when I was like just days after this event in, on the Allagash, I had this

• 2:18:59Speaker 04

  I mean, it was like an epiphany is the only word I can think of to describe it. All of a sudden, this thing came into my head, fully developed that I could, if I worked with clay this way, I could do this like really unique kind of, of creations with clay that are, they're so far total opposite of production pottery. And I became obsessed with this stuff. I almost got, I almost got kicked out of the program because of it. But I stayed with it and I managed to convince them that this was something legitimate that I really wanted to.

• 2:19:36Speaker 02

  Some of the most amazing, amazing artwork.

• 2:19:40Speaker 04

  And then in addition to that, I, I became obsessed, like my brother, on ancient architecture, places like Teal Te Wakan and Tiwanaku, Baalbek and the temples in Southeast Asia, Angkor Wat and Angkor Tom and the pyramids. And I, I just became obsessed because I had this.

• 2:20:03Jesse Michels?

  You know, that's also common among experiencers. They'll say, I've become obsessed with the pyramid. I have a buddy, you guys might be friends with too, Mario Woods, from the Ellsworth Air Force Base abduction experience, South Dakota, 1977. And he, he goes after, he goes, this is gonna sound weird, but after my experience, I just became obsessed with pyramids.

• 2:20:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, so did I. And, and I had this, this belief, which I still have. I, I believe that these sites, these structures, these architectural sites are a form of macrochip technology. That they, they're not just ceremonial places that people went and prayed to their gods.

• 2:20:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I believe that.

• 2:20:48Speaker 04

  That they actually used these structures for some kind of purpose, a, a, a functional purpose. You know, because.

• 2:20:58Jesse Michels?

  I agree.

• 2:20:59Speaker 04

  Why did they have huge sheets of mica brought to Teal Te Wakan sun pyramid, pyramid from two to 3,000 miles away in South America, and then put them under the floor, structures of the temples? I mean, mica is used in the electronics industry. And so like, why would, why would they do that if it's not decorative?

• 2:21:26Speaker 04

  And it's not just in the Pyramid of the Sun. It's in all the other pyramids in that immediate area. They all have those, they all utilize this mica. So, you know, mica is, is a, um, it's used as an insulator. To make capacitors.

• 2:21:45Speaker 02

  Hmm, another point.

• 2:21:48Jesse Michels?

  Very interesting.

• 2:21:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I've always, and that was like, it's just something that-

• 2:21:52Jesse Michels?

  Creating strong electric fields.

• 2:21:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. I'm reading a book now, it's called Seeds of Knowledge, Stones of Power, I think it is. And I can't think of the author. I just started reading it this past week. Found it on Amazon where these researchers went to all these pyramid sites in Mesoamerica, Europe, Egypt, and they took measurements of the electrical fields, field energies of these locations. And they claim in their argument in their book that these peoples, the Incas and the Aztecs, the Mayans, the Olmecs, were using these structures to make their seed

• 2:22:39Speaker 04

  more virulent. And that, so they started doing tests at these same sites with bags of seeds or whatever containers of seeds. And they found out that they increased yield per acre like three to five times.

• 2:22:55Jesse Michels?

  It's like electro culture or something.

• 2:22:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:22:57Jesse Michels?

  Ancient electro-

• 2:22:57Speaker 04

  Bio electrics.

• 2:22:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Fascinating. Well, Jim, Charlie, this was an absolute honor. It was a lot of fun.

• 2:23:04Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:23:05Jesse Michels?

  And yeah, it was really amazing to hear your story. And, uh, you know, I hope people start to, you know, use the Freedom of Information Act to try to get to the bottom of the 1970 experience as well.

• 2:23:16Speaker 02

  Be interesting. I'd like to know.

• 2:23:18Jesse Michels?

  And I want to give a shout out to the great James Fox for the, uh, very generous introduction here. And thank you both for your time.

• 2:23:25Speaker 04

  Well, you're very, very welcome. It's been an honor, Jess.

• 2:23:27Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my, all mine. Head to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com to grab official American Alchemy merch and support the show directly. And while you're there, the Cowboy UFO T is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along with the Atomic Age design. Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.

• 2:24:20Speaker 01

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