Selects: Is birth order important?

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:09Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. Chuck here with this week's Saturday Select. That's when Josh and I curate specially-selected episodes to rerun that may be a few years old. They may be, oh, heck, they may be 10 years old, maybe even older. You never know. Because a lot of people don't know these episodes even exist, so that's why we do this. So, anyway, this one's on birth order. It's called, "Is Birth Order Important?" I believe this was originally a Chuck idea to begin with. This is from April 23, 2019, and I am just pretty obsessed with birth order. And so that's why I picked it to begin with, and that's why I'm picking it again right now.

• 1:52Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:02Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles, there's Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry over there and this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  The podcast.

• 2:11Josh Clark?

  Jerry, were you a, what was your birth order?

• 2:17Josh Clark?

  Oh, Jerry's a middle child. Two of two or two of more? So you're the baby?

• 2:24Speaker 02

  You don't know this?

• 2:24Josh Clark?

  No. Did you?

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  No.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  I've known Jerry for like 13 years.

• 2:30Josh Clark?

  So have I.

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Well, not that long, 12 years.

• 2:32Josh Clark?

  So have I.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Well, no comment.

• 2:36Josh Clark?

  Well, what am I?

• 2:37Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:38Josh Clark?

  That's right.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:40Josh Clark?

  What?

• 2:40Speaker 02

  I'm the baby. You know that.

• 2:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah. I didn't ask what you were. I know you know what you are. What am I?

• 2:45Speaker 02

  This isn't quiz time. You're not gonna just, uh, yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  I wasn't calling you out. Oh, well, I was calling you out.

• 2:52Josh Clark?

  You were.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  In a humorous way.

• 2:53Josh Clark?

  And I called you out.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  It's hard not to look at this stuff through your own lens, though, of your own family, you know?

• 3:01Josh Clark?

  Are you changing the subject?

• 3:02Speaker 02

  Well, no, I'm getting on with it.

• 3:04Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Because as the youngest of three, and all of us have three distinct personalities, it's hard not to kind of like, think about birth order.

• 3:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  And if that's a thing.

• 3:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  And it may be and it may not be.

• 3:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  Depends on which scientist you're asking.

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  I, I tend to think like, there's just no way it doesn't have any effect.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  No, there, I think it definitely has an effect, but as we will see, it is one part of a huge pie.

• 3:33Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  That, uh, that indicates what kind of person and personality you might have.

• 3:39Josh Clark?

  Well, plus also it's devilishly tricky to, to analyze, to study.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Because of how big that pie is.

• 3:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah. There's so much going on with your personality that to just pinpoint one thing, even a big thing like the, where you're born in a family, um, it's just tough to pin down. So.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  You're the youngest, right?

• 4:02Josh Clark?

  Good guess. Yes, I am.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  I knew you were the youngest.

• 4:05Josh Clark?

  I'm like, I wear that on my sleeve.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  I feel like I kind of do, too.

• 4:11Josh Clark?

  Hmm.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  In a lot of these.

• 4:13Josh Clark?

  I guess in some ways, but like I was reading this checklist for the youngest.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:17Josh Clark?

  I'm like, yeah, I guess so. Let's, let's, let's do this.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  Should we go over that, that stuff first?

• 4:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, totally.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  All right. So this is like the sort of macro view of how a lot of people think of birth order.

• 4:30Josh Clark?

  I would call it.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Is that a fair way to say it?

• 4:33Josh Clark?

  Pop psychology.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:34Josh Clark?

  So if you were born into a family, there's basically four ways that you can be born in some sort of order. You can be the first born.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  You can be a middle child.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 4:46Josh Clark?

  Or you can be the last born. And then if you're a real outlier. Okay, you're right. So there's five.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  Or a triplet.

• 4:54Josh Clark?

  Oh, God.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  Don't even get me started.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Let's just say a multi.

• 4:58Josh Clark?

  Okay, a multi. Or you can be an only child, too.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 5:03Josh Clark?

  And all of them have distinct personalities, again, according to pop psychology, but also according to every person who's ever been born.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:10Josh Clark?

  Into a family especially.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:12Josh Clark?

  And so with the first born, the whole, the whole theory of basically birth order, where, where you're born into the family unit that you're born into, and what effect that has on your personality and how it develops. It all seems to come down to this idea that you are born into a family where there is a finite resource called parental attention. And then that is a pie that gets increasingly divided up into smaller and smaller pieces the more and more children that are born. Because your parents can't possibly give five kids the same amount of attention that they could give an only child.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  It's just not possible. And so what dynamics are created in the personality of the kids born into that family, depending on how many others are born, and depending on where they fall in that birth order? That's kind of the premise of the whole thing. And over time, people have said, well, this is what the first born's like. This is what the middle's like. This is what the baby's like.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there were, I mean, a lot of this are, these are generalizations, but they're generalizations, like you said, that kind of everyone who's ever been in a family can kind of say, yeah, that's kind of true.

• 6:19Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  You know, when you have an only, or your first kid, they, this article references it as that first sort of experiment. You don't know what you're doing yet. You're probably going all in, depending on how lazy you are or how motivated you are as a parent, with this, you know, being a super parent. And then if supposedly, as you have more children, you get, it's not only is your attention divided, I think, but there's the notion that you also are like, you know what, I probably don't need to be as crazy with number two and number three.

• 6:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Leave them to their own devices. As a third kid, I'm not going to get into too many depressing details of my family growing up.

• 7:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  But like, by the time I was 10 and 11, my parents had other things going on.

• 7:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  And I wasn't feral, but-

• 7:14Josh Clark?

  Other kids on the side?

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Not exactly. I wasn't feral by any means, but I was, I did not have rules imposed on me like my brother and sister did. I did not have, I was allowed to go to Panama City for spring break and they weren't. I was allowed to kind of do my own thing. And I was trustworthy, so that probably had a lot to do with it.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  If that would have been a real problem, they might have clamped down a little more, or maybe not.

• 7:39Josh Clark?

  And they probably wouldn't have necessarily clamped down like, we need to give Chuck way more attention and guidance than we have been. They would have probably been like-

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Crime and punishment.

• 7:48Josh Clark?

  They would have been like, we're sending Chuck to rehab or whatever, you know what I mean? Let rehab take care of him, or reform school or something like that.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:55Josh Clark?

  Because once you get X number of kids in, you're just so tired.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:59Josh Clark?

  So tired. And you're older, too.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 8:02Josh Clark?

  Like, when you're chasing a little kid around in like your 40s or 50s, that's different than when you're chasing a little kid around in your mid 20s.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  I can't imagine.

• 8:11Josh Clark?

  A world of difference.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:13Josh Clark?

  You know? So there's, there's, there's a lot of resources, not just, you know, parents' attention, but also their time, intellectual attention that they'll give a kid, like in say,

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  like hanging out, teaching the kid to read, that kind of stuff. And just attention in general, and also financial resources. The family's resources in general are a pie that must be divided among all the kids.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Financial, emotional, all that stuff, instructive.

• 8:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  So generally speaking, firstborns, people say, tend to be very conscientious and structured and reliable and high achievers.

• 8:51Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because their parents are focusing like a laser on them. They know everything the kid's got going on, maybe a little too much. And the kid is responding to this by basically becoming a perfectionist. And really wanting to be around their parents.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:09Josh Clark?

  And, and.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Their parents' friends, more mature.

• 9:13Josh Clark?

  Very much mature, because they're, all of the people or most of the people they're hanging out with are adults.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 9:19Josh Clark?

  Okay, so that's a firstborn typically, right? Everybody knows it, don't try to deny it.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Middles in general are people pleasing, which is so my brother.

• 9:32Josh Clark?

  That's weird to me, because when I think of middle children, I think of Jan Brady, and Jan Brady was not a people pleaser. She was just, you know, a lump, like a lump with a cloud over her head.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Oh, poor Jan.

• 9:43Josh Clark?

  But that's true, like, I would not characterize Jan Brady as a people pleaser, would you?

• 9:48Speaker 02

  No.

• 9:49Josh Clark?

  Like, she was gonna burn something down eventually if the Brady Bunch had stayed on the air long enough.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Was also a blended family, so what was, uh?

• 9:56Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Who was the, it was Bobby and then, uh, was it Peter?

• 9:59Josh Clark?

  Well, Peter was her lateral, I guess you'd call it.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Was he, was he a people pleaser?

• 10:05Josh Clark?

  Uh, more than Jan. More than Jan. But blended families do confound things, we'll get into that later.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  For sure. Um, but people pleasing, somewhat rebellious, which is not my brother at all. Um, large social circle, not really my brother, and a peacemaker, totally my brother.

• 10:23Josh Clark?

  He's the best.

• 10:24Speaker 02

  He's the best. Uh, and then the youngies, youngies? Youngins?

• 10:29Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Like us, um, most free spirited, fun loving, uncomplicated, manipulative.

• 10:36Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  I've, I've been called some of these things, to varying degrees. Self-centered, attention-seeking, and outgoing.

• 10:44Josh Clark?

  Check and check.

• 10:47Josh Clark?

  But uncomp-

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Combine you and I and we're sort of like the proto youngest.

• 10:50Josh Clark?

  Uncomplicated, though, I'm like, I don't get that. I'm exquisitely complicated.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  On the surface, you wouldn't think it, but I'm pretty complicated.

• 10:58Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  As we all know in this room.

• 11:01Josh Clark?

  But that's the only one that I'm like, that I question.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:06Josh Clark?

  All the rest of them are like, yeah, that makes sense.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  It's like the Chinese zodiac. You look at that menu and you're like, oh, I'm a total dog.

• 11:12Josh Clark?

  Yes. And Mugu guy Pan sounds great right now.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Uh, onlies, no siblings, you are what they call almost like a super firstborn.

• 11:23Josh Clark?

  Sounds scary as hell.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  All of the traits of a firstborn on steroids.

• 11:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  Very much perfectionist, very much more mature for your age, conscientious, diligent, prone to be leader.

• 11:35Josh Clark?

  Can leap over tall buildings.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Uh, and then, this is where it gets interesting, and this sort of starts to-

• 11:42Josh Clark?

  Finally, everybody, this is where it starts to get interesting.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Well, this is where it gets in a little bit, like, how complicated it can get, because there's so many factors at play. Like, um, what if you're in a blended family? Because that kind of throws it all out of whack.

• 11:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, dude, because-

• 11:58Speaker 02

  Or it can.

• 11:59Josh Clark?

  If you're born a firstborn, and you, your parents, your parents get divorced and you go with your mom, who gets remarried to a dude who has a-

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Mike Reddy.

• 12:09Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  To a smashing, cool architect.

• 12:11Josh Clark?

  For sure. Um, and he has a kid that's a little older than you.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  Greg.

• 12:18Josh Clark?

  Greg's the firstborn. You're not the firstborn anymore. The best you can hope for is to form some sort of confederacy or alliance with Greg to rule the rest of the siblings. But you're not the head honcho anymore. You're not in charge. That's a big deal. I can't imagine many more traumatic experiences, especially one that follows closely on the heels of your parents' divorce or the death of like your other parent. That's gotta be one of the most traumatic things a kid can go through, is to lose their identified perch in the family order.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's, you were, we were talking about like the firstborn, like the baby of the family. If all of a sudden there's a younger, no good.

• 12:57Josh Clark?

  No.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Like, I remember my parents, for some reason, talking about adopting a kid. I can't remember how old I was. I must have been about seven. And I remember breaking down and crying and just being like, you can't do this.

• 13:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  You cannot bring in someone younger and cuter.

• 13:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Than me.

• 13:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  And that happens.

• 13:17Josh Clark?

  I'm losing my looks. I'm seven.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Blended family, if all of a sudden you have a younger, or God forbid, a baby.

• 13:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Just forget about it.

• 13:25Josh Clark?

  You can't compete with that.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  You gotta kill that baby.

• 13:30Josh Clark?

  Well, that's what happened too, when Brady Bunch started to lose ratings. Apparently, your family was losing ratings, so they were talking about that. They brought in Cousin Oliver, a new baby, and I don't think Bobby was very happy about that either.

• 13:41Speaker 02

  No, but just think about Jan, it all makes a little bit more sense. Like, she was like, I'm the middle child, and then they brought in three more, and she was like, I'm even more middle.

• 13:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, you're diluted. The middle child is diluted, and if you have multiple middle children, forget about it.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  That's right. However, here's the thing with blended families. They say by about the age of five, that a lot of your personality is set. So if you're older than five, and all of a sudden, your family is blended, they say it may not make that much of a difference.

• 14:10Josh Clark?

  No, no, that's where it's trouble. If you're younger than five, and your personality is a little more plastic. If you were born a baby of the family, and suddenly, you're a firstborn, or you're not, or you're a middle kid.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:22Josh Clark?

  You'll adapt to that a lot better than you would if you're like, older and you're more solid in your birth order.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't mean not trouble. What I meant was like, if you're like, 12 years old, and the family blending happens, it's trouble, but it's not like your personality is like, all of a sudden, I'm the youngest, or, you know what I mean? Like, you don't all of a sudden swap to a different birth order personality, I don't think.

• 14:51Josh Clark?

  Right, but if you're younger and it happens, you do.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Right, under the age of five.

• 14:55Josh Clark?

  Which goes to show that if this is a thing, and we'll talk about whether it is or not soon.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:01Josh Clark?

  It has nothing to do with biology. It has everything to do with nurture, not nature, because a kid can adapt depending on when this happens. They can adapt to a change in birth order if they're young enough.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:14Josh Clark?

  That means it has nothing to do with biology. It's all the environment you're raised in, which is. The most boneheadedly obvious thing on the planet.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  And then, before we take a break, there are also gap children. Supposedly, if there's at least a five-year gap between births, then it just sort of resets.

• 15:32Josh Clark?

  That was like me and my oldest sister. She was 13 years older than me.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:36Josh Clark?

  She was just like this older, cool person, but not like an older sister, not at all overbearing, really like sweet and looked out for me, I guess a little bit.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:46Josh Clark?

  Or like a second mom, kind of to an extent.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Because that does happen, too, if there's a big gap or a big family.

• 15:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Like, I dated a girl in New Jersey that had, there was like six or seven of them. And the, by the time she came around, she was kind of fully being raised by her siblings.

• 16:03Josh Clark?

  Right, right. And so, so what happens when there's enough of a gap? A new family birth order forms. So like, if you have an oldest, and then there's multiple years, like, say, 10 years between your oldest and your middle, and then two years between your middle and your baby, the middle and the baby are going to form a firstborn and a lastborn type relationship.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the lastborn is always going to be the lastborn.

• 16:28Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Regardless of gap.

• 16:30Josh Clark?

  But then twins, like you were saying, is one last confounding thing. They, twins or triplets, multiples, as you call them.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think so. They form their own family unit within the family, too, with each other. And apparently, no matter where they're born, twins never act like middle kids. They always act like the firstborn or the baby, but to one another.

• 16:55Speaker 02

  Right, and I think they generally come together to kill the parents.

• 16:58Josh Clark?

  Basically.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:59Josh Clark?

  They hold hands. It's like an elevator of blood washes around them.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  And then finally, with adoption, they say that depending on when your child is adopted, the same kind of scenario happens as in, like with gapped and blended families.

• 17:15Josh Clark?

  Right. Whereas if the kid's young enough, he or she will tailor their, their, their birth order to the family that they're adopted into. But if they're older, it'll be trouble.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  All right, that's a good overview, I think.

• 17:29Josh Clark?

  I think it was a great overview, Chuck. I'm glowing from it.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  We're gonna, uh, you do have that overview glow.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  We're gonna take a break, and we're gonna talk about, uh, science, right after this.

• 17:55Josh Clark?

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  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 20:29Josh Clark?

  Hey, this is Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know.

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• 20:55Josh Clark?

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• 21:18Josh Clark?

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• 21:36Josh Clark?

  All right, Chuck, as promised, we're going to talk about science. Because, like I said, this is so boneheaded and obvious to every single person who's ever been born into a family. Everybody knows this stuff.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:47Josh Clark?

  But. As far as science is concerned, this is not proven that birth order effects, as they're called, actually exist. That science is saying, "Hold your, slow your roll, everybody." We can't actually prove that what everybody knows is actually true.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:06Josh Clark?

  Some studies show that, yes, there is such a thing as birth order effects. Other studies show that there is no birth order effect whatsoever. And then some studies suggest that if there are birth order effects, they're so small that they are basically a blip on your personality, that all the other factors that form your personality, things like the socioeconomic status of the family you're born into, your racial background, your gender, all the other stuff. That is what really forms your personality, not the order you're born into your family. That's kind of science's position right now.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, but what they all agree on is that it is therapy cash cow.

• 22:48Josh Clark?

  Right. That, yes, it's a good, it's a useful framework to approach psychotherapy from.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, they all want to talk about it at high hourly rates.

• 22:58Josh Clark?

  See, to me, I'm like, this is, sure, this is exactly what forms your personality. But I get science's position. I respect it.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  So if we go back in time to the early 1900s, there was a man named Alfred Adler. He was a part of, he was a contemporary of Freud. And this is when all these dudes were getting together to talk about all this stuff and this burgeoning science. And they all thought they were so cool and important. And he was one of the only ones, among his peers though, at the time, that was talking about birth order that early.

• 23:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  And he went on to form what we know as Adlerian psychology or individual psychology. And it's basically a therapy based on how you perceive your own level of power. And Your family, at your workplace, in the world at large.

• 23:51Josh Clark?

  In general, like your perceived power, place of position, or status, right?

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and if he believed in birth order, having a significant influence on your personality, then that in turn would influence how powerful you may or may not feel.

• 24:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because to Adler, if how you perceived your own power, not necessarily how powerful you were, but your own perception of power was the driving force of like what, how you interacted with the world, your personality. Birth order would make total sense, because birth order, as everybody knows, is nothing but positions of superiority or inferiority.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:28Josh Clark?

  And it's as simple as that. Because when you're born, and you're a little kid, and you're born into a family with an older sibling, they are a couple of steps ahead of you, because they've already been through a bunch of stuff.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:39Josh Clark?

  So they're inherently superior to you. They can also beat you up on a very basic level. They can twist your arm behind your back until it feels like it's going to break, and no matter how many times you say uncle, uncle, uncle, they won't stop until they're satisfied.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  Or protect you, like my big brother did.

• 24:54Josh Clark?

  That's great.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  From his friends that were jerks to me.

• 24:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  He wouldn't stand for it.

• 24:59Josh Clark?

  No.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Not to say, we went at it too, you know, we were brothers, but

• 25:02Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  He never picked on me.

• 25:04Josh Clark?

  No.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  You know why?

• 25:06Josh Clark?

  Because you're Chuck.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  And he's Scott.

• 25:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  In the 80s is when, I mean, there were always studies, starting since Adler and Freud's time, but in the 1980s is when it really blew up, thanks to the big five.

• 25:20Josh Clark?

  Cocaine.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  And cocaine, the big five personality trait view of things. And that's when things in the 80s, that's when everybody was just like eating this stuff up.

• 25:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because, so the big five personality inventory is, we've talked about it before, but basically, it is a self-reported measure that is actually valid, it actually works. Like, you can say this person is highly neurotic.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:46Josh Clark?

  Or this person is extroverted, or, well, three others that I can't bring to mind right now, but these things are also kind of broken into subcategories, like these are big umbrella terms that have more specific subcategories, but it's actually like valid, like somebody who fills this survey out, it's gonna be an accurate assessment of their personality. So, if you have somebody's personality... That's huge, right? You can say, all right, if this person's neurotic, they're highly neurotic. Let's see what birth order they are. Oh, they're a middle child? Let's compare them to other middle children who filled out this personality survey, scored high on neuroses. And all of a sudden, we can show if you're a middle child, you're far likelier to be highly neurotic

• 26:28Josh Clark?

  under the Big Five personality inventory than a firstborn is, right? Boom, bam, you just proved that birth order effects exist. Or did you?

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  They're like, we can put people further into a box and label them.

• 26:45Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  Or did you? Because that is sort of the paradox that we arrive at, which is, you pointed to it a little bit earlier. There are so many, so many influences that go into what makes you you, that it's hard to look at birth order as a mere small part of that.

• 27:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  Like, you can account, you can account for some of these in studying it. You know, there are a lot of studies over the years and they do their best, but you can't account for all of them.

• 27:15Josh Clark?

  Well, okay, so we'll go back to that example. So you've just gone to your peers and said, look, I have just proven that middle children are highly neurotic compared to other children in birth orders, right? Then you're shaking your own fists around your shoulders in triumph. And they say, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. Did you control for socioeconomic background? And you go, no, I didn't. Well, wait, did you control for race? No. Did you control for gender? No. And so all of a sudden, you realize there's all these different independent variables.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Oh, tons.

• 27:51Josh Clark?

  What in this case would be confounding variables, that might actually be the thing influencing it. It might be the fact that they are women born into families of a low socioeconomic state that is driving neuroses.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:09Josh Clark?

  That that's actually the thing that is driving it, rather than birth order, it has nothing to do with being a middle child. It's just a fluke, a coincidence.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:16Josh Clark?

  And like you said, there's so many confounding variables. And so many things that make our personalities who we are, that some people who are like birth order effects do not exist. Basically say that any birth order study that shows that they do exist has some confounding variable that's the actual hidden thing that's driving it. That you can't possibly control for everything to make a perfect, perfectly designed experiment to for birth order.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, like when you start to think about, like if you were just to sit there and sort of jot down things as non-scientists, just regular schmoes like us.

• 28:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  And just jot down a list of what other factors might be at play. We could probably come up with a list of 100 things between us.

• 28:57Josh Clark?

  Let's start now.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  But that would like, if I was studying this stuff and I started to make that list, I would just walk away and go into another line of study.

• 29:06Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  I would be like, dude, I just, you know, were your parents married? Were they divorced? When did they get divorced?

• 29:11Josh Clark?

  Did you like hot dogs?

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Did you live with mom or dad? How far apart did they live?

• 29:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  What could do? Were you suburban? Were you urban?

• 29:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Where did you live in an exurb? Did you grow up in the woods? Did you start work at 12?

• 29:22Josh Clark?

  Were you like old timey?

• 29:24Speaker 02

  I started work at 12.

• 29:26Josh Clark?

  I guess I did too. I did paper route.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was a busboy.

• 29:29Josh Clark?

  Oh, nice. Oh, wait, was that where the guy put his foot into the?

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Brunch of stew.

• 29:37Josh Clark?

  What a criminal.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  I told you that's a Title Max now, that restaurant.

• 29:41Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  I drove by it not too long ago.

• 29:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  I know. JJ's Barbecue. Title Max. Now they're putting their foot on titles. Just stomping on them.

• 29:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah. They got your money, your money, your real money.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  They're never going to sponsor us now. Another few things that can confound these studies

• 30:01Speaker 02

  are things, and Ed helped us put this research together, things like demographic shifts. So he gave a great example of like the baby boom. If there's a big population bulge, that also coincides with a lot of other stuff. And the example he used was prevalence of cigarette smoking.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  There may be a false correlation there between being a first born and smoking. Whereas if you were second born 12 years later, I guess that would fall outside that range though of gap child.

• 30:31Josh Clark?

  Maybe, but that's even more confounding. The point's still valid.

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 30:36Josh Clark?

  That like, there's just way more first borns who smoke than second borns. But that's because smoking was more prevalent when there were a bunch of kids born who were all of the same cohort and all first borns.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:48Josh Clark?

  That's just one of the ways this thing can be confounded.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, this one really speaks to me, which is labeled as growth. When a birth order effect does appear, it is strongest when they, the subject is with their siblings.

• 31:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, when you're a family reunion, it falls back into that.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  It is so funny how that happens.

• 31:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  I see myself do it, like, good example. I turned 48 a couple of weeks ago. My family, my sister and her husband happened to be in town, didn't come for that. But we were texting and I was like, hey, let's all, you know, this is great. Let's all go out to dinner. She's like, oh, I didn't wanna, I just figured you wouldn't wanna spend your birthday with your friend. You'd wanna spend your birthday with your friends and not your family. And I saw Michelle when she got in town and she said the same thing in person. I was like, dude, I'm 48.

• 31:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  It's like, I'm not 22 year old Chuck.

• 31:38Josh Clark?

  I'm not some burnout.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Like I used to be. And she just sort of laughed, but that's a perfect example of how like, no matter what happens in my life, I will always be the baby.

• 31:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  And she will probably feel like she has to look out for me, which is a nice feeling.

• 31:53Josh Clark?

  It is.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  I see Emily fall into patterns with her family.

• 31:57Josh Clark?

  Where does she?

• 31:59Speaker 02

  Well, she is a, she's an interesting case because she was an only and then has a half brother and a half sister.

• 32:08Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Her dad, yeah, her dad went and had a son with another woman. And then her mom got married to her father in law, Steve, who already had a daughter. So it's a sort of a weird mix. But I just mean in general, not even with siblings, you know, just in how their family dynamic is. She's a different person when we go over there.

• 32:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think everybody is. I think everybody is around their family.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  So strange.

• 32:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  So this is when it sort of started me down the path of like, what is personality? Is it a, is a personality trait? Is it this just, is it repeated behaviors? Is it a set of behaviors? Like, is that personality?

• 32:54Josh Clark?

  Are you asking me?

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I don't even know. Like, what is personality? We should do a show on that.

• 32:58Josh Clark?

  Oh, we totally should. But from what I understand, just kind of briefly put it, personality is the kind of predictable way that you'll react to the world. Right? Is it easy for somebody to press your buttons? Are you laid back? Are you, like, could somebody, however, if somebody were presented with a, and this is going terribly, if somebody were presented with a, like, an event in life.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:24Josh Clark?

  You could say, Josh would probably respond to it like that.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:28Josh Clark?

  That's a personality.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  Right, but is that something inherent? Or is it birth order?

• 33:34Josh Clark?

  No, it's.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  Or is it just a collection of learned behaviors?

• 33:36Josh Clark?

  I think it's a collection of learned and reinforced behaviors, too. If you're told you're the baby of the family all the time, you're gonna act like the baby of the family. You're gonna act self-centered, you're gonna act manipulative. It's reinforced. If you're told you, you can do anything. You can, you can go out and do anything. You can literally walk through walls because someone told you to. They reinforce that behavior. But I think that's what personality is. And this is just me talking. I also believe in birth order effects, by the way. But I think that that is, it's, it's learned and reinforced, which means it can be unlearned. You can learn to be different.

• 34:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. At that same birthday dinner, I picked up the check for everyone.

• 34:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, nice.

• 34:18Speaker 02

  And there was a bit of a, not an argument.

• 34:22Josh Clark?

  Bloody struggle?

• 34:23Speaker 02

  My mom and I were, you know, kind of off to the side with the people who worked there, doing the credit card battle. And she, she wasn't super happy, and I should have just let her pay. But it, it's part of that thing, like, I'm the baby of the family. And I kind of just finally told her, I said, listen, mom, it's like, it's my turn to pay.

• 34:40Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  You know, I'm not the baby anymore. Like, quit writing me a check for a hundred dollars on my birthday.

• 34:45Josh Clark?

  Do you, do you, do you cash this?

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I generally just put it in my kid's bank account.

• 34:51Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's a good thing to do.

• 34:52Speaker 02

  You know?

• 34:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we don't cash the ones.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  Because I also don't want to take away the joy that she gets from writing me that hundred-dollar check.

• 34:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, sure.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  That's not cool.

• 34:59Josh Clark?

  No.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  It's like, I don't need that from her, but like, that's what brings her joy.

• 35:02Josh Clark?

  Yep. Giving you money.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  It's complicated.

• 35:05Josh Clark?

  So, let me teach you a little trick.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 35:08Josh Clark?

  If you don't want to get into that tussle, if you just want it to be done, sorry, it's too late. When you order, when you hand the menu back to the server, just be holding your credit card with your thumb and give them a look. It's universal.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 35:21Josh Clark?

  They all know, and they'll take it and be like, and you got to first. Nobody else does that. They always wait and they pretend to go to the bathroom like after everybody's done. It's so obvious. You gotta start before the food even comes, before the drinks even come.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  You know what I did?

• 35:34Josh Clark?

  What?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  When we got to the restaurant, the very first thing I did was go up to the manager while everyone was being seated. And said, "Listen dude, my mom's gonna try and pay, or one of these other chumps in my family is gonna try and pay." It's like, I don't want any of them paying.

• 35:50Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  It was like 12 people. I picked the place. I picked a nicer place.

• 35:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  It's like, I don't want to do that.

• 35:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  And I was like, "So just, here's my credit card. Please make sure that the server, there's no battle."

• 36:01Josh Clark?

  They didn't follow your orders?

• 36:03Speaker 02

  No, because my mom, she tried to jump me later on the side and didn't realize I'd already jumped her.

• 36:11Josh Clark?

  So it should have been done.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  I know, but then we went over there. He was like, "Listen, man, your mom is over here now. Like, she's the mom. We generally side with the parents on this stuff."

• 36:20Josh Clark?

  What place was this?

• 36:22Speaker 02

  It was just a restaurant.

• 36:24Josh Clark?

  I demand to know. I'm mad about this.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  You think my move should have just trumped all moves?

• 36:28Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  Because it was, no, I agree. And that's what I basically said. And I was like, "Listen, man," I was like, "there are factors at play here that I don't want to talk about."

• 36:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  It's like, "Just please," and my mom got a little mad and then I was...

• 36:40Josh Clark?

  That's, I blame this manager. I think you should expose them. Well, I'm glad it all worked out in the end.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Should we take a break?

• 36:49Josh Clark?

  I thought we were right now.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  No. All right, we'll be back right after this.

• 37:06Josh Clark?

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• 39:30Speaker 03

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• 39:40Speaker 02

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• 39:51Josh Clark?

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• 40:14Josh Clark?

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• 40:26Speaker 02

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• 40:37Speaker 08

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• 40:49Josh Clark?

  All right, we're back, Chuck.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:51Josh Clark?

  And like we said, we showed science is kind of like, oh, we're not quite sure about the birth order effect. That hasn't kept like a whole cottage, like,

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:00Josh Clark?

  field of psychology from continuing since the 80s, basically, nonstop. Like, if you go look up birth, birth order effects, there's, it's very rare you're going to run into anything that says, like, this is all BS. Most of it's like, yeah, this is true, everybody knows it. There have been some, like, prominent people in favor of, or like, like, that say, yes, there is such a thing as birth effects. And there was one guy in particular who made a big splash in 1996 with a book called Born to Rebel.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, Soloway?

• 41:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Frank Soloway. Frank J. Soloway, if you want to be fancy about it. And he got a MacArthur Genius Grant in 1984 to kind of study this and write about it. And he did, he wrote a book called Born to Rebel. It was about birth order. And the whole premise of the book was, he looked at scientific revolutions throughout the ages.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  Pretty interesting.

• 41:52Josh Clark?

  Identified which scientists were on which side of it, either in support of this revolutionary thinking, or opposed to it, meaning that they were in favor of keeping the status quo. And then determined what birth order they had. And he found, after this study, which is really, it was a big study.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:13Josh Clark?

  That he did, and it was a pretty, a lot of legwork and a lot of research. He determined that firstborns are much more likely to support the status quo, whereas secondborns, or laterborns, he calls them, are much more likely to support revolutionary thinking.

• 42:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, and just one example, as far as, he used Darwinism. He said laterborns, between 1859 and 1875, were 4.6 times more likely than firstborns to support Darwinism.

• 42:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, this revolutionary thinking.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that was one of many examples. I think there were 121 historical events with 6,500 individuals either supporting or opposing him. So it was a big, big work, for sure.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and one of his, I mean, he put some reasoning behind it, too. He was like, if you're a laterborn, you might have a hard time competing with your older.

• 43:10Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  You might have a tighter bond with the parents, maybe. And so that sort of symbolically forces you as to be almost an outsider within your own family. So you may be more prone to join up with an outsider opinion.

• 43:23Josh Clark?

  Right, to go look outside of the family union.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:26Josh Clark?

  And all of the values and the ideas that it holds, to make your own mark in order to get attention or support or whatever from your parents. Whereas if you're a firstborn, you've just got the easiest thing to do is to just fall in line with your parents and hence support the status quo. It makes sense, but Born to Rebel was... Was torn apart by some scientists, sure it's like, this is just pure pop psychology tripe. I think that's an unfair characterization of it, like the guy worked for basically 20 something years on this stuff.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:59Josh Clark?

  And it was a very robust study. One of the pitfalls that he seemed to have run into though was he was analyzing historical figures, um, which is really sticky stuff.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:12Josh Clark?

  Like, like that's, you, you can't analyze people even from afar, even if they're contemporary, let alone they've been dead for a couple hundred years. So to base it on that is kind of, is kind of difficult and tricky, but I, I just want to say he worked really hard on it.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Uh, another part plucked from his research I thought was pretty interesting was the idea that part of this

• 44:36Speaker 02

  less rebellious nature of a firstborn might be due to the longstanding, but now sort of antiquated practice of primogeniture, which is the firstborn gets the inheritance. So they're more likely just through thousands of years of this, more inclined to like, not ruffle the feathers of the parents.

• 44:56Josh Clark?

  Right. And then the, the later borns who are like, I've got basically zero chance of inheriting the family titles and estate. I'll just go do my own thing. I don't have to fall in line. That makes sense as well.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Uh, and the other interesting thing with that is, um, another factor was the removal of a child from a family. He's found that a later born who was removed from the family and reared by a relative will end up behaving like a typical firstborn.

• 45:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  And again, I'm assuming if that's under the age of like five.

• 45:24Josh Clark?

  But I wonder, so I'm wondering if that just is supported by other research? Or if all of the parenting magazine articles that mention that whole, you know, the personality is tailored is really just citing that work. Cause that's one of the big problems with pop psychology in general is it's self reinforcing. One person says one thing and it gets picked up by a bunch of people and they're all pointing to the same thing. But since so many of them are pointing, there's so many of them out there doing the pointing.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:53Josh Clark?

  It seems like it's a very robust and like, um, widespread body of work when really it was just one study that said one thing that everybody's citing.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, like in his case, he likes to cite this Norwegian study. It found a difference of 2.3 IQ points between first and second born children. Sample size of 241,000 subjects.

• 46:14Josh Clark?

  That's big.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  It is big, but then, you know, Ed sort of brings up a good point like, okay, maybe, but like, is a 2.3? First of all, IQ tests are problematic.

• 46:24Josh Clark?

  They're bunk.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  For like a lot of reasons.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  Because they're bunk.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  Possibly bunk, but even if they're not, is a 2.3 IQ point difference even meaningful?

• 46:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Enough to be like, well, look, two points.

• 46:37Josh Clark?

  So, no, it's not meaningful in that like, you know, that doesn't, that's not going to lead to any like closed doors or open doors or anything. It's just such a narrow difference. But if that's like an average and it's, it is found across, you know, firstborns and laterborns. Like, like in a very large population like that, it is, it does make you wonder like, what, what would that come from? It does raise more questions.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:02Josh Clark?

  You know what I mean? So, yeah, it's an insignificant difference as far as like actual intelligence goes, but it does suggest that there's something weird going on there that does have to do with birth order.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  Well, I guess that brings us to this really interesting thing that I had never heard of before.

• 47:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  Had you heard of this?

• 47:19Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Fraternal birth order effect, which is basically the idea. And a lot of studies have backed this up.

• 47:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Meta-analysis of tons of studies have backed this up. The idea is that if you have multiple boys in your family,

• 47:40Speaker 02

  each successive boy that's born, and this is if it's just boys, has a higher chance of being gay.

• 47:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  I didn't think, and when I first saw that, I was like, that can't be real. And then I did a lot more poking around. I was like, wow.

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  It is real.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  The statistics sort of bear it out.

• 47:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah, if there's, if there's a big disagreement about whether actual just regular birth order effects exist, this one is much more supported by the data.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:09Josh Clark?

  This, the fraternal birth order effect. And so much so that there is a sexologist, which if that were my field of study, I'd be like, call me sexologist Josh, please.

• 48:20Josh Clark?

  I can't find his name. It was Ray something. He said, and I'm not sure what he was basing this on, but he said that

• 48:27Josh Clark?

  there is a increase of 33%.

• 48:31Josh Clark?

  In likelihood that you will be gay with each additional older brother you have.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Now, so that means if you're born into a family and you're the youngest of four brothers.

• 48:41Josh Clark?

  I did this, this math.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  What does that mean? Cause I know these people, like I have friends and family.

• 48:46Josh Clark?

  There's a 0% chance, I guess, that, that you are going to be hetero. That you, that you're 100% chance going to be gay, right?

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Well, how many? It could be 160% chance.

• 48:59Josh Clark?

  Right. It just keeps going, right?

• 49:01Speaker 02

  God, I mean, that can't be right.

• 49:02Josh Clark?

  Eventually you become so gay, you pop out the other side and you're straight. Cause you have like 10 brothers.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Well, I did see that meta-analysis of multiple, multiple studies indicated that between 15 and 29% of gay males owe their sexual orientation to this effect supposedly.

• 49:22Josh Clark?

  Okay. So, so, and we should say there are some studies that have not found this. There was a big one that had, it was like a survey of British young men that, that surveyed like 11,000 of them, whatever, and did not find this. But so many studies have found it.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:37Josh Clark?

  That science is like, this, this actually might be a thing and we're not quite sure what it is. And at first, they explained it that the, the more boys there are, the less social pressure there are for you to be like hetero and, and responsible for carrying on the family line.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 49:58Josh Clark?

  Like after two, three brothers who are gonna, you know, carry on the family line, go, go crazy, go do what you want. And that that was the idea behind why it became likelier that you would be gay if you had more older brothers. There's a couple of things with that. It kind of suggests that like, um, being gay or not is a choice, or being straight or not is a choice, rather than something biological.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:21Josh Clark?

  Whatever. That has kind of gone out the window with another really surprising finding that has to do with handedness, that really undermines that whole idea.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, this is so just mind blowing and interesting. So the, the increase in probability of a boy becoming gay is only, only if that boy is right-handed.

• 50:43Josh Clark?

  Right. Handed.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Yep, so if you're left-handed, among left-handed men, there was no statistical difference in the incidence of homosexuality, even if you've got a thousand brothers.

• 50:53Josh Clark?

  And the weird thing about that is that they found if you are taking birth order out of the equation, if you are left-handed, there's a slightly higher incidence of being gay.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Just period?

• 51:06Josh Clark?

  Yes, for being left-handed, and that's with men and women, apparently. So the idea that not only does it not make you more likely to be gay as far as fraternal birth order is concerned, it actually negates the effects of fraternal birth order.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  It negates it?

• 51:24Josh Clark?

  It shows that that that social pressure from brothers doesn't have anything to do with it.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:29Josh Clark?

  Because a right-handed or a left-handed kid is not going to be under any more or less social pressure from older brothers to be straight.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:37Josh Clark?

  That makes zero sense whatsoever, and that would also suggest since it's handedness that it has something to do with genetics, too.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  If you're ambidextrous, are you bisexual?

• 51:45Josh Clark?

  I guess so.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Where's that study?

• 51:48Josh Clark?

  That makes sense.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  So I did a little more digging in this, but I don't understand it at all, but more recently, as in just a couple of years ago, they think they found an actual physiological, biological explanation for that. Did you understand that?

• 52:07Josh Clark?

  I don't know if they found it or if somebody made it up and everybody's like, "All right, that'll do for now."

• 52:11Speaker 02

  I read a bunch of papers that said that, you know, they think this may be it.

• 52:15Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  But I didn't get it.

• 52:17Josh Clark?

  So what they what they think is that when a mom carries a boy, her body has a reaction to the male proteins, the stuff that makes him a male, creates an allergic reaction of sorts in the mom, and the mom produces antibodies. The first time the mom's body's totally caught off guard has basically no effects whatsoever on the the boy's development as a boy. As more and more boys are born and gestate in that same poor mom.

• 52:54Josh Clark?

  The antibodies get better and better at recognizing these proteins and can actually get to the point where they affect the expression of these proteins. And so what makes the boy straight from the basis of these proteins is actually affected. And they develop differently, starting in the womb, because the mom has developed antibodies to basically maleness, which is the most mind-boggling, amazing idea I've ever heard.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  That summary was so much better than the scientific paper summaries that I read today.

• 53:24Josh Clark?

  Thank you, Chuck.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Good job.

• 53:26Josh Clark?

  Thank you.

• 53:26Speaker 02

  You should do that.

• 53:27Josh Clark?

  Thank you. I do for a living. I just did.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  Well, that's a good point. I thought this was interesting, too. I mean, we've kind of gone over most of these birth order theories, I think, in general, but this one I don't think we super touched on, and I think is really interesting, the confluence theory. So this is sort of like resource dilution of parents that we were talking about.

• 53:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  Like only so much emotional support or financial support to go around, but this takes it down to the sibling level. And it's sort of basically like, if you were firstborn, you are then have a degraded emotional environment and intellectual environment once you get a younger.

• 54:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  So it's like playing tennis against better or worse competition. If you're the better tennis player, you're not going to play as good against a lesser tennis player. And they're saying that that kind of happens with firstborns because they have to spend time with this dumb kid, this dumb baby.

• 54:26Josh Clark?

  But the dumb baby gets a leg up.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Exactly. That's when you play tennis against someone better than you.

• 54:30Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Eventually, that's called the tutor effect. They surpass that firstborn.

• 54:34Josh Clark?

  The student becomes the master.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  That's right. Exactly.

• 54:37Josh Clark?

  And your skin turns to alabaster.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Really interesting.

• 54:41Josh Clark?

  So sting.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  Does that sting?

• 54:43Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm. Call the police.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Oh, sure. I thought you were like a Dream of the Blue Turtle Sting.

• 54:51Josh Clark?

  No, I'm more of a Nothing Like the Sun.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  Yes, synchronicity.

• 54:57Josh Clark?

  No, it's good too.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  I'm still mad at them for that reunion tour.

• 55:00Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, they really phoned it in, you said, right?

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Just phoned it in.

• 55:03Josh Clark?

  Hey, I saw for some, so I just thought of the Police and then Stuart Copeland, which made me think of Les Claypool. Remember he was in that band with Les Claypool and Trey Anastasio?

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's called Kill Me.

• 55:16Josh Clark?

  No, it's three talented individuals, but then that made me think of Les Claypool, who was in a documentary I just saw on The Residents. Have you seen it?

• 55:25Speaker 02

  No, The Residents were the mystery band, right?

• 55:28Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  That were the big ping pong heads?

• 55:30Josh Clark?

  Eyeballs.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Eyeballs, right.

• 55:31Josh Clark?

  Still are a mystery band, still going.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Really?

• 55:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they're good. But it's good. It's like, it's an intellectual kind of like examination of their history and everything, but it's really interesting, but Les Claypool's in it.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  Do you think when Les Claypool, uh, Fish Guy, what's his name?

• 55:47Josh Clark?

  Trey Anastasio.

• 55:48Speaker 02

  Trey Anastasio.

• 55:49Josh Clark?

  And Stuart Copeland.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  And Stuart Copeland. You think when they got together to form that band, all they did was just sort of work out whose solo was next?

• 55:58Josh Clark?

  Probably.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  It's like, I want to do the bass solo first, and then we can go right into the guitar solo, and then the drum solo, and then the song's over.

• 56:05Josh Clark?

  Hopefully, the birth order of the three worked out so that it all, they were like, yes, this all makes sense to me.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Oh, man, there's nothing better than old videos of Stuart Copeland pitching fits.

• 56:15Josh Clark?

  Oh, did he? I always heard it was Sting that was the jerk to Stuart Copeland. Was Stuart Copeland the jerk?

• 56:20Speaker 02

  Well, Stuart Copeland was a hothead and Sting was a, could poke his buttons.

• 56:24Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty fun. There's some pretty-

• 56:26Josh Clark?

  Poor Stuart Copeland.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  No, don't feel bad for Stuart Copeland.

• 56:29Josh Clark?

  Man, he might be, I think he might be the best drummer who ever lived. Everybody says Neil Peart. I don't know, man. Stuart Copeland was pretty good.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, and like crazy, uh, like, um, doing his own thing.

• 56:40Josh Clark?

  And he's from Macon.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  What?

• 56:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Macon, Georgia?

• 56:44Josh Clark?

  Macon, Georgia.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 56:47Speaker 02

  I didn't know that.

• 56:48Josh Clark?

  This concludes this episode of Stuff You Should Know. If you want to know more about birth order, go talk to your family. We don't care. Since I said that, it's time for listener mail.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Did you watch the Motley Crue movie yet on Netflix?

• 57:00Josh Clark?

  No, no, I didn't know it was out.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's out.

• 57:03Josh Clark?

  Okay. Is it good?

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Uh, no.

• 57:06Josh Clark?

  Is it based on that book you read?

• 57:07Speaker 02

  It's not good, but it's great. You know what I mean?

• 57:09Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, it's based on the book.

• 57:11Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  But it's so, I mean, it feels like one of those VH1, are you literally making a note?

• 57:15Josh Clark?

  I can't wait to see it.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  It's sort of like one of those VH1 movie, uh, music movies.

• 57:19Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  Like the Jacksons one. It's, it's, it's, it's good.

• 57:23Josh Clark?

  Okay, I'll check it out.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  All right.

• 57:25Josh Clark?

  Who plays Vince Neil?

• 57:27Speaker 02

  Um, they're all, you know, the only one of the, not the only thing, there's a lot of distracting parts, but the guy who plays Vince Neil and his hair looks a lot like Garth. Looks a lot like Dana Carvey as Garth. So it's kind of hard to fully go there.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Uh, the guy who played Tommy Lee is pretty good.

• 57:47Josh Clark?

  Was it Christian Navarro?

• 57:49Speaker 02

  No, did he want, he's, he can't play Tommy Lee.

• 57:51Josh Clark?

  He could.

• 57:52Speaker 02

  Tommy Lee's like 6'5".

• 57:53Josh Clark?

  That kid can play anybody.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Well, no, I agree.

• 57:56Josh Clark?

  All right, it's time for listener mail. I said Chuck.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Navarro's more a Mick Mars guy.

• 58:00Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 58:01Speaker 02

  All right, here we go.

• 58:01Josh Clark?

  Is that from, is that Dokken?

• 58:03Speaker 02

  No, Mick Mars is Motley Crue.

• 58:05Josh Clark?

  Who is that?

• 58:06Speaker 02

  He's a guitar player.

• 58:08Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  The old creep.

• 58:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, sure. I know who you're talking about. I guess I never knew his name.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  And by creep, he was a creep. He was creepy.

• 58:15Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  That's what I mean.

• 58:16Josh Clark?

  Still is.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  All right, here we go. This is, uh, from Sam. I'm just gonna call this heartfelt. It's always nice to hear this.

• 58:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  "Hey, guys, probably could have sent this a million times, but tonight I really felt the need to. You were with me when, when I transitioned from high school to college. You were there the night my dad died two years ago. And now you're here as I'm in the process of dealing with my girlfriend dumping me after three years. You're always there, guys. I'm sure you hear this all the time, but I want to tell you that, uh, some tough days, on tough days, you really help keep me sane, plain, and simple."

• 58:48Josh Clark?

  Help keep me sane.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Plain and simple.

• 58:50Josh Clark?

  Kind of plain and simple.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Not that we keep him plain and simple. I read that wrong.

• 58:55Josh Clark?

  That's like eat shoots and leaves.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  That's right. Uh, "I have depression and anxiety, and the podcast is a huge help on nights like this, when nothing seems to help or is comforting. I can tell if things get really bad if even the podcast doesn't help. Uh, you guys have also been like role models for me. Oof. So, uh..."

• 59:16Speaker 02

  This is all just to say thank you so much, guys. Who knows how much darker some spots in my life would've been without you. Could say much more, but I think I got the message across. That is from Sam, and he says, "P.S. I am a he/him," and I spanked this email on the bottom.

• 59:31Josh Clark?

  Oh, good. That's how we got here.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 59:33Josh Clark?

  Nice work. If you want to get in touch with us like Sam did, thank you very much, Sam, by the way. That was very sweet of you to tell us all that. Hope you're pulling through.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, hang in there, man.

• 59:44Josh Clark?

  You can get in touch with us by going to stuffyoushouldknow.com and clicking on our social links, and you can also send us an email, like Sam did. Don't forget to spank it on the bottom to [email protected].

• 1:00:01Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 1:00:16Josh Clark?

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