Pod Insights The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett Most Replayed Moment: The Truth About Protein Intake and The Simplest Way To Lose Fat About this episode Alan Aragon is a leading nutrition researcher and one of the most respected voices in evidence-based fitness and diet science.
In this moment, he breaks down one of the most misunderstood topics in nutrition: protein. How much do you really need? Does it influence fat loss? Alan unpacks the science behind what actually works, and answers the most common questions DOAC listeners ask about losing weight.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:04 Steven Bartlett? One of the things that I'm particularly intrigued by, which kind of dovetails into both of those subjects of fat and muscle gain, is the subject of protein. And because there's been so much said about protein, you know, when I was growing up, they said you have to have protein right after you eat your meal. You have to have this much protein, you have to have it before you eat your meal. It doesn't matter when you have it. So I want to do a bit of myth busting on the subject of protein. What are, what are the biggest myths that people currently believe about protein consumption?
0:33 Speaker 01 The biggest myth is that they have the hierarchy of importance all screwed up. Like, everybody's worried about how much protein per meal you need to have for this or that goal. When do you need to time protein relative to the training bout, or waking, or sleeping, or all that stuff? The main thing they need to be focused on is how much protein do they need to eat by the end of the day? Because when you hit that goal, you've basically won the whole game. The relative placement, the distribution and the doses of the protein, the timing of it.
1:09 Speaker 01 Oh man, it rarely matters. It rarely matters. Beyond getting that protein in in a way that's comfortable and convenient for you and in such a way that you can stick to in the long term. Some people are more like grazers, some people are more like gorgers. They're both fine, as long as you hit the total by the end of the day. So the hierarchy is of utmost importance, get your total daily protein. And then of secondary importance would be, what is the distribution of the constituent doses of that protein total through the day? And then of third importance down here is like, when specifically are you supposed to time that protein around the, the training bout?
1:54 Speaker 01 So, so yeah. The way that I put it is like this. The daily total for protein, that is the cake. The distribution of the doses through the day, that's the icing on the cake. And it's a very thin layer of icing.
2:10 Steven Bartlett? And how do we know that? How do we know that it doesn't really matter what time you have the protein? And that the most important thing is just making sure you get the protein?
2:18 Speaker 01 That's a great question. The reason that we know that distribution doesn't matter as much as the total is through a couple of lines of evidence that I can think of. So there's Yasuda, who compared a three-meal model with a two-meal model. And the three-meal model had superior effects for muscle gain. But there is a study that was just published, gosh, within the last month. It was better from a methodology standpoint because they fed the subjects an abundance of protein. So Yasuda and colleagues who tested the two versus three, he totaled everybody out at
3:03 Speaker 01 1.3 grams per kilogram of body weight per day. That's total daily protein dose. And so we know now that that's a suboptimal total if you want to push muscle growth. So for pushing muscle growth, we know you should be at 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight, which translates to 0.7 grams per pound of body weight. That's where you really want to be if you want to maximize muscular adaptations to resistance training, like muscle size and strength gains. So this latest study, they compared three protein feedings versus five protein feedings.
3:45 Speaker 01 And the totals of protein intake in the day in both groups were around a gram per pound. So right around a 2.2-ish grams per kilogram of body weight. So we have the optimized daily total, and we're testing three versus five protein feedings. We're doing progressive resistance training. And this is the key. This happened in resistance-trained subjects. There were no significant differences in muscle size and strength gain between the three protein feedings a day versus five protein feedings a day. And this is the best-designed study to date. On the, on the topic.
4:27 Steven Bartlett? Because when I grew up and read stuff about gaining muscle, it said you had to have like five or six meals a day. And it said that's what bodybuilders do.
4:36 Speaker 01 Whenever we, we talk about any kind of physical goal, any, any sort of fitness goal, we have to address two main things. So who's the, who's the population? And what goal are we talking about? And maybe a third thing we need to address is what is at stake? So what level are we talking about? So population, goal, what level? What's at stake? So with bodybuilders at elite levels, it is, most of them consume five, six meals a day. Some of them do like even seven or eight in the off season.
5:19 Speaker 01 And these are individuals who are enhanced. And so their ceiling for, for muscle growth and their rates of muscle, muscle growth are significantly higher than people who are, in quotes, "natural."
5:32 Speaker 01 And the amount of food that these individuals can process and use productively is significantly more. And so with that population, I can see it being pretty standard for them to be consuming at least five, six meals a day, since they tend to have, since they tend to be eating double the amount of, of the average person. And so, but the interesting thing that happens is that the guidelines from this very sort of fringe elite population, that's what trickles down into the general public. And then they're stuck thinking, okay, maybe I need to eat every 2.5 hours or some such.
6:13 Speaker 01 But yeah, with the, with the general population and even recreational athletes and people who are hobbyists and, and stuff, you really.
6:24 Speaker 01 The impact of actual protein distribution is inconsequential compared to the total.
6:32 Steven Bartlett? So how much protein should I be eating a day? Because I think you disagree with the recommended daily sort of allowance that they suggest we eat. As I think I'm 90 kilograms. How much protein should I be eating to gain muscle, lean muscle mass?
6:49 Speaker 01 Okay, so we're going to apply you to the population and the goal and the stakes question. So what would you say your training status is? You're obviously not a beginner.
7:05 Speaker 01 So you're somewhere between intermediate and advanced. Right?
7:09 Steven Bartlett? Yeah.
7:10 Speaker 01 So what is your goal?
7:14 Steven Bartlett? Just to lose fat and gain muscle.
7:16 Speaker 01 Okay.
7:16 Steven Bartlett? Familiar story, I'm sure.
7:18 Speaker 01 Okay, the way that I do it is I go 1.6 to 2.2 grams per kilogram of target body weight or goal body weight.
7:29 Speaker 01 So that's the range that you would be looking at. Now, with you in particular, I would go more towards the upper end. Because you mentioned that you, part of your goal is to decrease body fat to a minor degree, but you're still, you're pushing the envelope because you're already lean. So there's an interesting thing about high balling protein that facilitates that reduction in body fat.
8:01 Steven Bartlett? Really, so if I have a lot of protein, it helps to reduce body fat?
8:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, it does. And the way that we know this is because there have been several studies now, four trials, one case study by Joey Antonio and colleagues. And they
8:23 Speaker 01 Examine the effect of very high protein intakes. Anywhere from about 3.3 all the way to 4.4 grams per kilogram of body weight. Roughly, gosh, you know, a gram and a half to two grams per pound.
8:38 Steven Bartlett? Is that because you're eating less carbohydrates? You're sort of substituting it for something else essentially in terms of you feeling hungry? So if I'm having 3.3 grams of protein, I'm probably not going to be having something else which is more fatty.
8:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's right. That's right. So this particular line of research was done on people who were resistance training. And it was done in free living conditions. And they just gave them the assignment to essentially increase their protein intake by 50%. And literally add 80 to 100 grams of protein on top of their existing habitual dietary intakes.
9:23 Steven Bartlett? So what would you say to me then? You'd say push even higher in terms of grams per kilogram of body weight?
9:30 Speaker 01 What is your goal body weight?
9:31 Steven Bartlett? I don't actually have a goal body weight, to be honest. I just have more of a goal in terms of like strength.
9:37 Speaker 01 How about this? Were you ever in the shape that you are wanting to be in? And what was your body weight at that time?
9:45 Steven Bartlett? I was around 90. I think I was just a little bit below 90 kilograms. So I think I was about 88.
9:51 Speaker 01 Okay, so you know what? Let's take 90.
9:54 Steven Bartlett? Yeah.
9:54 Speaker 01 And multiply that by 2.2.
9:57 Steven Bartlett? 90 times 2.2.
9:59 Speaker 01 There's your protein target.
10:01 Steven Bartlett? 198 grams of protein a day. So if a protein shake gives me 20 grams of protein, I need to have basically 10 grams, 10 protein shakes a day. That seems like a lot of protein.
10:12 Speaker 01 That is a lot of protein. I would give a little caveat here. You can probably achieve your goal with.
10:23 Speaker 01 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight. So that would be the lower end. So multiply 90 by 1.6 and that's where you can start. So if that 198 number seems kind of far fetched or even a little bit like, hmm, how would I even achieve that? Then start off at the lower end.
10:46 Steven Bartlett? Do women have a different prescription in this regard? Is there a different approach if you're a woman?
10:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, if you're a woman, you would almost always start at the low end because women have a higher proportion of body fat and by default, they have a lower proportion of lean mass. So with women, it would almost always be, all right, let's start at 1.6 grams per kilogram of target body weight and see how you do with that. And we can always ratchet it up if needed.
11:14 Steven Bartlett? Is there any such harm in eating too much protein?
11:18 Speaker 01 It's rare. You would have to have a pre-existing chronic kidney disease and then it's generally not a good thing to be high balling the protein. But even people with chronic kidney disease have to realize the trade off that they're incurring with a low protein diet and older age sarcopenia and stuff. How are they going to mitigate that? But for the general healthy population, there have been many studies that have rolled out looking at effects on kidney function, liver function, bone health. And there is virtually zero threat to those organ systems that you would think might be threatened by a high protein intake.
12:03 Speaker 01 So the human organism, perfectly well equipped to metabolize and handle high protein amounts.
12:10 Steven Bartlett? And not all protein is equal, I guess, because you've got these animal proteins and then plant proteins that come from things like eggs and so on. What is the best type of protein, do you think? Is there such a thing?
12:23 Speaker 01 I think that the best thing you can do is get a mix of different types of protein. It is true that gram for gram, generally speaking, animal proteins are more, in quotes, anabolic than plant proteins, meaning that they stimulate a greater growth response
12:44 Steven Bartlett? Of muscle.
12:45 Speaker 01 At the muscle level. So they stimulate muscle protein synthesis more potently than plant proteins. And there are, there's maybe one exception to that that we know of, which is mycoprotein, which is a fungus-based protein that actually outperformed milk protein for stimulating muscle protein synthesis. So there's interesting exceptions like that. But generally speaking, animal proteins are better for muscle protein synthesis than plant proteins. Now, with that said, Stephen, once you consume a certain amount of total daily protein, then it doesn't appear to matter how much of your protein is animal-based versus how
13:29 Speaker 01 much your protein is plant-based, if we're looking at things like muscle size and strength gain. Because this has been actually compared in controlled interventions, where vegan group has been compared with an omnivore group, and total daily protein was optimized at 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight per day, or 0.7 grams per pound in both groups. Progressive resistance training for 12 weeks, no significant differences between groups in muscle size and strength gain, whether it was a omnivorous protein intake, or whether it was a plant-based protein intake, and we have two studies showing that now.
14:09 Steven Bartlett? You must have so many moments where you're working with someone through your career who's got a goal, and he feels like they just can't accomplish it, where you find yourself saying the same thing over and over again to people about how to lose fat or to gain muscle mass. Is that same thing just to have more protein?
14:28 Speaker 01 It's a common thing with the general population, with the lay public. My protein target is at least 160 grams a day. So. I just make sure that I have four meals with at least forty grams of protein per day. And it's so easy to do. It's incredibly easy to do because two of my meals per day are just real whole foods. And then two of my meals per day, two to three, are protein smoothies. And so it is just so incredibly easy for me to get my protein intake through like two scoops of protein. Bam, that's almost fifty grams of protein right there.
15:10 Speaker 01 So you have two of those a day, I've got more than half my protein covered.
15:15 Steven Bartlett? But if I, if I have all of my protein in one meal, is that going to impact my ability to gain muscle or lose fat? If I have it all in one meal, if I just have like one massive protein shake, if I put like five scoops?
15:27 Speaker 01 Now, if you were telling me, hey Alan, I want a place really good in the Nationals this year. The NPC Nationals, classic, classic physique or, you know, classic bodybuilding, or just any one of the physique divisions. I would say, you know, you are not going to want to try to get all your protein in a single meal. Because what we want to do is we want to maximize the number of micro anabolic events in the course of the day. We want to maximize the amount of times you maximally stimulate muscle protein synthesis in the course of the day.
16:06 Speaker 01 And just from a pragmatic standpoint, you could probably do that at least three or four times. And if you're able to do that three or four times in the day versus once with that one big banger of a meal, then you might actually over time gain more muscle than you would have. And this could make the difference between placings at the end of the, end of the prep period. So, but as somebody in the general population, theoretically, you could.
16:40 Steven Bartlett? I am going to challenge you to do something here. I asked my audience about weight loss and asked them for their 15 most popular questions that are currently unanswered for them.
16:50 Speaker 01 All right.
16:51 Steven Bartlett? About weight loss. The first one was, how do I lose weight fast?
16:56 Speaker 01 Ha. So essentially, you can engage what would, could be classified as a, as a, as a protein sparing modified fast. You're basically crash dieting. I don't love doing that, though, honestly.
17:12 Steven Bartlett? Listen, I've got a wedding. I need to, I need to lose weight fast. How do I lose weight fast?
17:17 Speaker 01 Losing weight fast, so you would basically do an aggressive caloric deficit. So anywhere, I, I would say 20% below your maintenance needs, 20 to possibly 40, depending on the individual, percent below your maintenance needs. And then keep the protein high. And this is going to default you to relatively low carbohydrate, relatively low fat, and just train regularly, don't hurt yourself.
17:50 Steven Bartlett? Protein high, you said?
17:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, protein high. And calories wise, so for example, if you maintain that, we'll, we'll just take a round number, 2,000 calories. So you would just lop off about a third of that and then just go. And see if you can maintain your fat loss while maintaining strength levels relatively. You're, it's almost inevitable to crash diet and lose some strength in the process. But I mean, we're, we're talking about something that's not an optimal process. But yeah, that, that's, that's the game. Basically aggressive caloric deficit, keep protein very high.
18:37 Speaker 01 And then you just go. And the deficit could be anywhere from 500 to 1,000 ish calories below what you normally take in.
18:44 Steven Bartlett? The second one is, why do I regain weight after stopping a Zempec, Wegovy, et cetera?
18:50 Speaker 01 All right. So those GLP-1 RAs, the GLP-1 receptor agonist drugs like Wegovy.
19:02 Speaker 01 They have at least three different mechanisms that all converge towards almost nullifying your hunger and your appetite response. And so when you cut out the drug, then your normal appetite comes back. And an unfortunate reality for a lot of GLP-1 users when they get off the drug is they just don't have the habits and they don't have the skills necessarily to maintain their weight loss. And of course, once again, they're fighting their appetite. So I would say perhaps try a weaning off process instead of just a jumping off
19:46 Speaker 01 process, a weaning off process where you are reinforcing countermeasures to overeating, where you are reinforcing good training habits and good dietary habits. And where you're also progressively learning how to live with and deal with sensations of hunger between meals. And just train those habits in. And it can be done. I'm not one of the people in the camp who says it's impossible to get off of a weight loss drug successfully.
20:22 Steven Bartlett? So number three again is, is my metabolism damaged after dieting? And they're asking a question here about something called adaptive thermogenesis.
20:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, okay, so this is not really a short shot here. So the process of metabolic adaptation is kind of complex. And it happens in both directions, whether you try to gain weight or whether you try to lose weight. So earlier, we talked about an increase in non-exercise activity thermogenesis, or NEAT, an increase in NEAT in response to an increase in calories. So that occurs. And across studies, I gave an example that showed a 336 calorie increase in NEAT when 1,000 calories were stacked on top of people's maintenance. But there are other studies where the caloric increase was not quite that aggressive.
21:12 Speaker 01 And so, so on average, increases in
21:17 Speaker 01 NEAT, or non-exercise activity thermogenesis, are about 200 to 300 calories. So you increase your energy expenditure about 200 to 300 calories if you're overeating.
21:28 Steven Bartlett? Yeah, so your body will start to twitch more and move more, burning more non-active calories.
21:34 Speaker 01 That's correct.
21:34 Steven Bartlett? When you're overeating, yeah? So that's the adaptation.
21:37 Speaker 01 That's the adaptation in the caloric surplus side. So in the caloric deficit side, it's just the opposite thing, just the mirror of it. So people decrease their non-exercise activity thermogenesis, or their NEAT. They decrease it on average like 200 to 300 calories as a result of dieting. So this is part of a metabolic adaptation that occurs with dieting.
22:07 Steven Bartlett? Is this why people don't think the calories in, calories out system is working for them sometimes? Because they don't realize that if they're in a calorie deficit sometimes, they are subconsciously moving around less, which means that they're burning less calories. So actually, they're not in a calorie deficit.
22:25 Speaker 01 Yes, that's correct. So with the dieting side of things, which is much more of a public health issue, weight loss is much more of a necessity than the weight gain. It's tougher for most people. Because in addition to the decrease in non-exercise activity, that'll cost people 200 to 300-ish calories that they're no longer burning at the end of the dieting cycle. Then you've got what's called adaptive thermoreduction. Okay, so you mentioned adaptive thermogenesis. Technically, that is the... There's non-shivering adaptive thermogenesis and there's shivering adaptive thermogenesis.
23:07 Speaker 01 But that all has to do with increases in energy expenditure in response to cold environments. So technically, that's what adaptive thermogenesis is. It's the increase in energy expenditure. When people diet, there's something called adaptive thermoreduction.
23:24 Speaker 01 And that is a part of it is a decrease in non-exercise activity thermogenesis.
23:30 Steven Bartlett? You're basically saying that the body changes when we're in a calorie deficit. It stops doing as much.
23:36 Speaker 01 Yes, that's the activity part.
23:39 Steven Bartlett? Yeah.
23:39 Speaker 01 But then there's also the metabolic part. So we've got a decrease in non-exercise activity.
23:45 Steven Bartlett? Yeah.
23:46 Speaker 01 Then we have adaptive thermo reduction, which has to do with a metabolic component that has to do with the sympathetic nervous system and also potentially thyroid output as well. So there's this metabolic change that goes on. There's behavioral or activity change that goes on.
24:06 Steven Bartlett? So when people say I've got a slow metabolism, they might be telling the truth.
24:10 Speaker 01 When people say I have a slow metabolism, what's usually happening is they have a pretty massive drop in NEAT or non-exercise activity to the order of 200 to 300 calories. Now adaptive thermo reduction is another 50 to 100 calories.
24:28 Steven Bartlett? Okay.
24:29 Speaker 01 So we're looking at in the neighborhood of like possibly 300, 400 calories that they're no longer burning as a result of the dieting process. Now, if you take somebody with clinically diagnosed hypothyroidism, then their resting metabolic rate could be 7 to 10% lower than somebody without a thyroid issue. So you add another 100 to 200 calories less burned over here, then you have the potential for 500 to 600 calories of energy expenditure that this person is challenged with at the end of their dieting cycle. So they're.
25:10 Steven Bartlett? So I guess it is kind of true in a way that people understand that if you overeat your metabolism, as far as they understand what their metabolism is, is increasing. And if you undereat, then your metabolism is slowing down.
25:25 Speaker 01 Yes, but I have to emphasize the major component that slows down. Is your non-exercise activity.
25:32 Steven Bartlett? You're not moving around as much.
25:34 Speaker 01 Yes, the other components like adaptive thermal reduction and potential thyroid issues, that is the minor component. The major component is a drop in fidgeting, a slowing of the rate that you walk around, and increase in the amount you sit around.
25:48 Steven Bartlett? And you can control that?
25:49 Speaker 01 Yes. It's hard to put a finger on it, but as long as you know that stuff goes down. I'll give you an example of physique competitors. They are, as their cutting phase progresses, they're literally lying around in between their cardio sessions and their resistance training sessions and their Tupperware meal sessions. They're no longer tapping their heads, tapping their fingers and bobbing their heads, and they no longer have a pep in their step. They're no longer doing non-exercise activities, basically.
26:26 Steven Bartlett? Question four. What diet actually works best for long-term weight loss? Keto, low-fat, Mediterranean, intermittent fasting? And you've got to give me a answer here.
26:40 Speaker 01 I'll say it in one sentence.
26:44 Speaker 01 The diet with enough protein, enough total calories, that is comprised predominantly of healthy food choices, that fits the individual's personal preferences and tolerances.
27:02 Steven Bartlett? How do I lose belly fat specifically? Can you target the belly?
27:08 Speaker 01 Targeting belly fat specifically is a matter of targeting total body fat. You can't necessarily spot-reduce the belly fat. Now, if we're to go a layer deeper, it is possible for certain diets to be more conducive to preventing visceral fat gain or maybe even accelerating visceral fat loss. Visceral fat is the fat within the abdominal cavity around the organs. And so... It is possible for certain diets to be more conducive to reductions in visceral fat, and that would be diets that have a lower proportion of saturated fat.
27:52 Steven Bartlett? Which is, what's an example of a saturated fat food?
27:56 Speaker 01 Land, fatty land animal meats. So land animal fats are going to be your saturated fats that are more conducive to visceral fat gain. So if you were to switch out, let's say fatty cuts of meat, just trim that fat out, and if you replaced it with something like avocado nuts, olive oil seeds.
28:16 Steven Bartlett? What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode. If you want to listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below. Check the description. Thank you.
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