Phantom Menace | EP 1 | The Confidante

After coming out, Carl finally begins building a new life - with close friends, his first love, and hope for the future. But someone is preparing to tear it all apart. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod https://www.instagram.com/betrayalpod/ and @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. If you are currently in crisis, please reach out to organizations that offer immediate support. We are including a few US-based resources here: 988 Lifeline. https://988lifeline.org/ If you or someone you know is in crisis or need to talk to someone immediately, please call or text 988 – the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline available 24/7/365. National Domestic Violence Hotline https://www.thehotline.org/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=domestic_violence. They offer 24/7 phone and chat support to help you create a personalized safety plan and connect you with local support. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition. If you’re looking for help in the US, search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrea Gunning?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:05Andrea Gunning?

  Hi, I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the Betrayal Podcast. This is season six, and I'm excited to share episode one with you. And I'm even more excited to tell you that you can listen to this and all new episodes completely ad-free and one week early with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.

• 0:32Andrea Gunning?

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• 1:13Andrea Gunning?

  with everything, from applying and financial aid, to tutoring and career development. At Southern New Hampshire University, knowledge can be life-changing. Get started at SNHU.edu/Betrayal. That's SNHU.edu/Betrayal. What if you could save up for that new car or vacation just by buying the stuff you're already buying? With the OnePay banking app, you earn 3% cash back on up to $150 in monthly spending in categories you choose, so it's easy to save. For me, I love to save up for a really nice vacation and maybe put some money aside for a new car. It's always nice having something to look forward to, and knowing you're actually making progress towards those bigger goals feels really good.

• 1:59Andrea Gunning?

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• 2:06Speaker 01

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• 2:21Andrea Gunning?

  Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, and I'm excited to be back with season six of Betrayal. If you listen to Betrayal Weekly, I hope you'll stick around for our full season of Carl's story. It'll be told over the course of 10 episodes, with a new one dropping every Thursday. Whether you've been a fan since season one, you're a Betrayal Weekly listener, or you're brand new to our show, thanks for being here. Now, onto the episode.

• 2:49Andrea Gunning?

  We all have a person in our lives that we trust with anything: a partner, a parent, a sibling, a friend. I'm thinking right now about my best friend Teresa. We have been each other's person since ninth grade. She's been with me through the best moments in my life, and the difficult ones. She knows my secrets. She sat on the phone with me for hours when I've been nursing a broken heart. We became adults together. We've cheered each other on in our careers and celebrated our successes. For years, we shared a place at the Jersey Shore, where we'd end each day with a beach walk and a glass of wine. Every one of us needs a person like that: a confidant, someone you can be vulnerable

• 3:32Andrea Gunning?

  with, and also share uncontrollable laughter with, someone you trust beyond reproach. Now imagine that person isn't who you think they are.

• 3:45Andrea Gunning?

  Imagine that every secret you've shared wasn't stored in confidence. It was collected, cataloged, saved for later. The audio we're about to play was caught on a security camera.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  I acted totally nice, like sociopathically, and I like completely like put on the act. And I was just like, they don't deserve to be happy.

• 4:08Andrea Gunning?

  The man you just heard, he'd been plotting for years, against someone who trusted him more than anyone. Then, he was unknowingly caught on tape, admitting to it all.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  I'm not pleading guilty, that's for fucking sure.

• 4:24Andrea Gunning?

  This confession is almost five hours long, and it contains some of the most sinister details I've ever heard. Not just about the crimes he'd committed, but about his darkest fantasies, and the people he was willing to discard to get what he wanted.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Like, if I could've kept doing shit, I would've like put Visi in his fucking stir-fry. I mean, what is that to... Kills you.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Do you want me to just tell you the whole story?

• 5:08Andrea Gunning?

  I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, season six. Episode one, Phantom Menace.

• 5:18Andrea Gunning?

  For five seasons, we've explored betrayal inside marriages. We've shared stories about families of all kinds, and complex relationships with parents, kids, and colleagues. But then, we heard this story, and our interest was piqued.

• 5:36Andrea Gunning?

  So, we decided to take a trip out near Chicago, to Kenosha, Wisconsin. It's home to one of the men at the center of this story, Carl Bryan.

• 5:49Andrea Gunning?

  I was excited to meet him. From our calls in the months leading up to the trip, I knew we had a lot in common. We're both diehard sports fans. The two of us spoke for hours about teams we'd ride hard for. For Carl, that's the Cubs and the Packers. For me, the Eagles. And, we're both 90s kids with an appreciation for metal music. We spent an entire breakfast talking about Judas Priest and Ozfest. I'm sorry, I'm just really loving that we are working with someone that is around my same age.

• 6:20Andrea Gunning?

  We also talk about ourselves in a similar way.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  I'm a nerd. Such a nerd.

• 6:26Andrea Gunning?

  Beyond his teams and his bands, Carl has one fandom that always comes first.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  I'm a walking encyclopedia of Star Wars knowledge. I mean, you'll never find a better person to have on their trivia team for Star Wars. That's just about as far as that knowledge will take me, unfortunately.

• 6:48Andrea Gunning?

  Hearing Carl's big laugh, you'd have no idea what he's been through. He's a survivor.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  There is no easy way to articulate what it feels like to realize that someone you once trusted was secretly behind the very horror you were trying to escape.

• 7:06Andrea Gunning?

  That was Carl just one year ago, in a courtroom, holding back tears, trying to get someone he once loved sent to prison.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  I couldn't understand how someone could be so calculated, so cruel, and so relentless. But he knew exactly what he was doing, and he never once stopped. He weaponized my past to gain control over me.

• 7:30Andrea Gunning?

  To understand this crime, you need to understand Carl's past. So let's go back to the early 2000s, when Carl was a teenager.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  Picture like the typical rocker kid out of the 90s. That was Carl.

• 7:46Andrea Gunning?

  That's Carl's sister, Rebecca.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  He had really long hair, he would wear band t-shirts every day.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  I even had like a denim vest with Judas Priest patches all over it, and like Iron Maiden patches.

• 7:58Andrea Gunning?

  For a teen like Carl, clothes were a way of telling the world who he was, which is why, when Kenosha was considering a mandate requiring all kids to wear uniforms...

• 8:09Speaker 02

  I said, "Absolutely not." So I went to the school board meeting, and I might've terrified some of the parents with my appearance.

• 8:18Andrea Gunning?

  At just 18, he stood up in front of a room full of people, parents, teachers, and elected officials, and delivered a speech. It seemed to have a real impact on the vote.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  Because there was such an uproar from people like my brother and other peers at the high school, it ended up being shot down.

• 8:37Andrea Gunning?

  There would be no uniforms at Kenosha schools, in no small part because of Carl. He had a real talent when it came to organizing people and speaking his mind. Rebecca saw that spark in him, and she got an idea.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  I have a very keen memory of telling him, "Hey Carl, you should run for school board." I'm like, "Why not? You're about to be 18, right?"

• 9:00Speaker 02

  When I was 18, I filed the paperwork, and I ran. I lost the first time, but the following year, 2009, this was my freshman year in college. I did get elected at 19.

• 9:15Andrea Gunning?

  Carl went on to serve two consecutive terms on the Kenosha School Board, all while attending the University of Wisconsin. He was a go-getter, charismatic, a face in the community. Privately, though, he was hiding something.

• 9:33Andrea Gunning?

  During his late teens, the time in life when you're still getting to know yourself, he wrestled with his sexuality.

• 9:40Speaker 02

  I had acknowledged, but buried it for a long time, that I was queer. I lean towards dating men, but I am bisexual. And I did not embrace this because I remember my dad telling us very early on, if you are gay, I might as well just disown you.

• 10:04Andrea Gunning?

  Shame got wired into Carl early in life.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  He was very culturally conservative, and he still is, still very religious. It was for that fact alone that I chose to just not acknowledge it. It was just easier for me just to suppress it.

• 10:22Andrea Gunning?

  Carl spent years hiding parts of himself. So when he finally found people who accepted him, he held on tightly.

• 10:32Andrea Gunning?

  In high school and college, Carl dated women and had girlfriends. But once he graduated, he wanted to explore his bisexuality.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  I was encouraged by a close friend of mine at the time who just said, well, why don't you just go on dating apps and maybe try going on a date with a guy and see if you like it? And I did, and I liked it. I was like, yeah, I want to do more of this. And then it was easy for me to be like, yes, this is who I am. I am bisexual and I'm going to tell people that.

• 11:05Andrea Gunning?

  Carl and his younger sister Rebecca were close in age. He was 24, she was 21, and he felt safe with her.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  Well, I was the first one in his family he came out to. Was it something I ever suspected? Honestly, no. But when he told me, it wasn't like a, I'm gasping, catching my pearls, that type of a thing. It was just, oh, okay. Thank you for telling me.

• 11:31Andrea Gunning?

  Next, he told his mom.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  I remember it being later at night. He came home crying and came out and told me.

• 11:41Andrea Gunning?

  Sue was Christian. She'd seen people in her community get ostracized or bullied for coming out.

• 11:47Speaker 04

  I was fearful of that and how he would be judged and how he would not be taken seriously or looked at as a freak or whatever kind of a thing.

• 11:56Andrea Gunning?

  But Sue accepted Carl as he was.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  I believe 100% that that's how you are born. God makes you who you are. God does not make mistakes.

• 12:11Andrea Gunning?

  It was a huge weight off to know that people in the family were in his corner. But he still wasn't ready to reveal the truth to his dad. Then, a year after Carl came out, a pride event forced his hand.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  I was on the school board my first time. Kenosha Pride was just getting started. It started with a gathering in the park and I decided I was going to go and speak.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  And I said that I am the first out bisexual school board member.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  That made its way into the Kenosha news.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  I haven't even had the conversation with my dad yet. I even called the editor that night before it went to print. And I was like, can you please not print that? Because, you know, this is going to like really mess up a lot. And he's like, yeah, it's already at the printer. There's nothing we can do. You should probably have that conversation with your dad.

• 13:11Andrea Gunning?

  There was no more kicking that can down the road.

• 13:15Andrea Gunning?

  The next morning, Carl's quote appeared in the local newspaper. His dad did not take it well.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  He didn't talk to me for a couple of days. And then eventually he confronted me and he's like, is this true? And was it this friend that got you into this? Like, I can be convinced to be gay, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

• 13:37Andrea Gunning?

  They eventually made an uneasy peace. They just wouldn't talk about it. But his dad's disapproval made it hard to fully embrace who he was. So Carl started trying to meet other gay men, people who would accept him, understand him.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  And I think that was really where this whole story took off.

• 14:17Andrea Gunning?

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• 15:01Andrea Gunning?

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• 15:16Andrea Gunning?

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• 16:23Speaker 01

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• 16:37Andrea Gunning?

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• 17:22Andrea Gunning?

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• 17:34Andrea Gunning?

  When Carl came out, he felt excited to jump into the queer community. One of the main ways he tried to meet people was online.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  I started downloading some apps and one of them I downloaded was OkCupid.

• 17:48Andrea Gunning?

  It was the time.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  It was the time, you know, it was that and plenty of fish.

• 17:54Andrea Gunning?

  For Carl, meeting people on the apps was no walk in the park, especially because many profiles didn't have a picture of the guy's face. It was just a picture of their abs.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  It has become so emphasized in queer spaces. It's to the point that it almost seems toxic. If you got a nice looking torso, that's your profile picture. To the point where it's been mean to death where like you'll see a person where their head is a torso.

• 18:22Andrea Gunning?

  Carl can laugh about it, but he's never been that guy. And he's struggled with that for as long as he can remember. Did you grow up overweight?

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I was, I was a fat kid when I was growing up. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 18:38Andrea Gunning?

  I really relate to Carl here. I was overweight as a kid too. And the most painful judgment I received about it came from my own family. It was the same for Carl.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  My dad was quite vicious to me and my sister when we were growing up. Our food choices and you can't have that, that's too fattening. And we're gonna have to break down the wall to get you out. And so they're just awful things, awful things.

• 19:05Andrea Gunning?

  When Carl entered the world of dating apps, that same judgment was there.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  It's not a good feeling to put yourself out there and message somebody, be like, hey, how's it going? And then just be blocked because that person is not interested in you. Or to like have on their profile, I prefer people in this weight range, no fats.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Really definitely had a way of impacting how I see myself.

• 19:32Andrea Gunning?

  Even beyond his weight, Carl didn't always feel like he belonged in the queer community.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  I'm not the guy that goes every Thursday night to watch RuPaul's Drag Race with everybody else.

• 19:43Andrea Gunning?

  His profile didn't get a lot of swipes, but one day, he was scrolling on the apps when he saw someone. His name was Paul. Paul Augustine.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  I thought he was attractive. I messaged him and he responded. He seemed very engaging and interested in setting up time to get together and hang out.

• 20:07Andrea Gunning?

  Paul lived in Milwaukee, over an hour away, but he drove to see Carl. They met up for pizza and quickly, one thing became clear. Paul didn't fit neatly into the gay scene either.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  We were both a little outsider-ish from the community.

• 20:24Andrea Gunning?

  He wasn't a nerd or a sports fan like Carl, but he was over the top. Everything was a performance. He'd take the tiniest detail, like the way the waiter took their order or a typo on the menu, and turn it into a bit. For some people, that might be a lot, but for Carl, it wasn't. He thought Paul was funny.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  He had a quirky side to him that, you know, he made it very easy to laugh.

• 20:53Andrea Gunning?

  With Paul, Carl didn't feel like an outsider. He was in on the joke. They were shooting the shit, like they'd known each other forever. Carl had never had a gay friend before, and Paul was out and proud. He moved through the world like he owned it.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  My understanding was, he came out at a very young age and it was quite clear that yes, he is gay. He was somebody who, you know, is unapologetically open about their sexuality. Very out.

• 21:25Andrea Gunning?

  It was a confidence that Carl didn't have yet. Watching Paul be so comfortable in his own skin, he yearned to feel the same. The dinner ended and Carl felt excited about the new connection, but after dinner, Paul told him, he just wanted to be friends.

• 21:43Speaker 05

  So he turned you down?

• 21:45Speaker 02

  He did.

• 21:47Andrea Gunning?

  Paul was upfront. He didn't feel physically attracted to Carl. That was hard for Carl to hear. Of course, he felt like it had everything to do with his weight. Still, Paul wasn't like the other guys on these apps. He didn't ghost Carl when he realized the attraction wasn't there.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  He did show commitment and willingness to, you know, make plans to do stuff.

• 22:11Andrea Gunning?

  That kind of follow-through meant a lot. It was a lonely time in Carl's life, and Paul was always down to hang.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  We were foodies. Whenever we got together, we always liked trying new places. We'd go to Italian restaurants, Mexican places, Asian places, and then afterwards, we'd go out for drinks and just it'd be an innocent, fun, lighthearted time.

• 22:35Andrea Gunning?

  They got to spend even more time together when Carl was offered a job in Madison.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  I got a job working in education policy in Madison. That was really where I began the process of truly finding myself in terms of my queer identity.

• 22:51Andrea Gunning?

  Paul was a big part of that. He took Carl to bars and introduced him to other queer friends. Between their in-person hangs, Paul and Carl stayed in touch.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  He sent me voice memos often. If there was anything that would come up in regular daily life, he would find some way to put some quirky spin on it. Like, there was one time he was commenting on the fact that there was a date that he had planned with somebody and this particular individual wanted to go to Applebee's or something like that.

• 23:24Andrea Gunning?

  Paul sent a lot of voice memos, and Carl enjoyed them so much, he saved them.

• 23:30Speaker 05

  Strike one. Suggesting Applebee's. Are you serious? Do I look like I eat processed food? Didn't think so. Look at the thigh gap, motherfucker.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Like, I don't know what about the voice memos just got me to laugh, but it was hilarious. And then sometimes he would do stuff in funny voices.

• 23:48Speaker 05

  Release your inhibitions. Feel the rain on your skin.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  Or, there would be like certain phrases he would pull out of everyday conversation that would turn into like an inside joke. Like, I took him to Frank's Diner one time and he never called it Frank's. He called it Pancakes because of something funny about the pancakes and we were always referring to it like, yeah, let's do pancakes. And we knew exactly what it was.

• 24:13Andrea Gunning?

  We've all had that friend. The one that you talk to and it's like you're speaking your own secret language. Paul made Carl feel like they were a club of two.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  It was a very unique connection that I think did not characterize any of my other friendships with people, but I just, it was interesting and it's what kept the friendship entertaining, I think.

• 24:35Andrea Gunning?

  Paul had his own way of doing things and some weird ideas of fun.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  There's a theater in Milwaukee that, it's like an Asian movie theater, and there's gold lions everywhere. And he would like to go there just to stare at the gold lions and kick his feet up.

• 24:53Speaker 05

  I feel like I'm in The Lion King, except like, classier.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  We would just get popcorn and soda and just sit there and look at the gold lions and act like bougie bitches, you know? And it was fun!

• 25:07Andrea Gunning?

  Paul could create his own reality like that. At other times, he was willing to follow Carl's lead. Carl took Paul to his first ever Cubs game.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  He didn't know a damn thing about baseball, but like, he expressed the openness to not just hang out with me and enjoy the time, but also invest in another part of me and just enjoy that side of myself. And it was just really nice to have a friend.

• 25:35Andrea Gunning?

  They quickly became close. Paul was a good laugh and always down for an adventure. Still, Carl continued to crave a romantic relationship. He knew he wasn't getting that with Paul, so he kept his eyes open. In February of 2016, a year after moving to Madison, Carl took a visit home.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  I had come down from Madison to hang out with some friends and family and went out to the gay bar here in Kenosha.

• 26:07Andrea Gunning?

  At the bar, Carl was introduced to a cute guy. He had dark hair, soft green eyes, and a cheeky smile. His name was Adam. Adam Mejia.

• 26:18Speaker 02

  They have dancing cages at the club and I definitely wasn't dancing that night, but I was just like looking over at him while just like chilling on the side, having a couple of drinks or whatever. I was like, damn, he's a really good dancer. I like his vibe.

• 26:32Andrea Gunning?

  But Adam was more than a good time.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Later that night, talking to each other, I saw really quickly that this is a person who just really has a big heart. And I come to find out as I'm getting to know him that he's also a nurse and that compassion really shows up in his work. I immediately thought like, yeah, damn, he's really cute.

• 26:53Andrea Gunning?

  There was only one issue. Adam had a boyfriend. That's who he was out with that night.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  This is my first time meeting them, you know, just getting to know them. I kind of thought, there's a chance I'll probably never even see these people again, you know, whatever, just enjoying the time.

• 27:09Andrea Gunning?

  Carl had no expectations, and he had no idea how important Adam would become in his life.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  But I remember quite distinctly that about a month after that hangout session, him and his boyfriend had broken up and he was already asking my friend about me. And I was really quite flattered because I was kind of a person that I would have preferred to like blend in because of my insecurities.

• 27:38Andrea Gunning?

  The apps made him feel invisible. Paul might have meant well, but he had made Carl feel like he was only friendship material. Finally, with Adam, someone saw him, and Adam liked what he saw.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  And I was like, wow, is this a chance at actual romance? I'd never had a boyfriend before.

• 27:59Andrea Gunning?

  Their friend connected them and they set a date.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  We met in a little town called Burlington at one of the little coffee shops out there and we hit it off really well.

• 28:09Andrea Gunning?

  Immediately, the connection felt real.

• 28:13Speaker 02

  It was just easy for me to be myself. Eventually, we would drive around town. We ended up having a little lunch at McDonald's or something like that. And before you knew it, like, yeah, we were making out in my car at the side of the road someplace. It was a good first date.

• 28:35Andrea Gunning?

  But Carl knew it couldn't be serious.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  He was coming out of a previous relationship and dealing with some stuff with that.

• 28:44Andrea Gunning?

  Things stayed platonic for a while. For years, Adam was another best friend. Still, Carl held out hope for romance.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  There was something always about it that just felt like, you know, this isn't the end.

• 28:59Andrea Gunning?

  It was disappointing, but Carl liked Adam so much, he'd settle for friendship. He wanted Adam in his life. With Paul, he could goof around and keep things pretty light, but Adam was soulful, thoughtful. It was no surprise he was a nurse. He cared about people.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Adam's really down to earth. I loved that about him. He is not afraid to be himself. He's very secure in his own skin and he leads with all of his heart. There is a person there that really has a lot of love to give.

• 29:36Andrea Gunning?

  Both Carl and Adam dated other people but hung out as friends. And then, a few years into knowing each other, Carl sensed a change in the dynamic.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  He was calling and texting more. I mean, we would make plans to hang out every day and there was definitely a lot of, you know, touching. There was definitely a lot of nice words being exchanged. And the vibe seemed a lot different, like he was ready to explore the possibility of a relationship.

• 30:04Andrea Gunning?

  They started hooking up. Adam began spending the night.

• 30:08Speaker 05

  Do you guys define?

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Their relationship. It was really hard to put a label on it. I mean, the L word was thrown around all the time and we were doing boyfriend things all the time, but I was totally afraid of trying to put a definition on what we were or placing boundaries on what we were doing because I didn't want to upset him. I didn't want to feel as though like I was overwhelming him or anything like that.

• 30:36Andrea Gunning?

  We've all been there, so enthralled with the new fling that we're afraid to say anything that could rock the boat. For Carl, it went deeper. He'd spent his whole life struggling with his weight and body image, trying to make himself smaller, more agreeable, more worthy of love. He was prepared to stay silent if it meant holding on to what they had. But eventually, Adam got there on his own.

• 31:03Andrea Gunning?

  He chose an indirect way to let Carl know he wanted to be together.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  We were just hanging out, chilling in his bedroom, and he's like, you should check Facebook. And I looked and then it, uh, status had changed and it was like, Carl Bryan is in a relationship with Adam Mejia. And I was like, whoa.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  That was something I was hoping for, for a long time, right? And like, probably the first time that he was willing to acknowledge it and do it publicly. I'm like, this is like, this is gonna be real, isn't it? Like, this is gonna happen.

• 31:38Andrea Gunning?

  It was the winter of 2021 when Adam became Carl's first real boyfriend.

• 31:45Speaker 02

  He definitely was a guy who saw me for who I was. I had always kind of come around this idea that being overweight was just simply unacceptable. It was always easier for me to just hide myself because I just did not want to be seen. And he made every gesture to show me that weight did not matter to him. This was finally somebody who saw me as a person.

• 32:16Andrea Gunning?

  Carl was happy, or happy enough to not see what Adam was carrying.

• 32:22Andrea Gunning?

  Both Carl and Adam drank a lot.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  I think I was like every other Wisconsinite, to be quite honest with you, when it came to alcohol. Like, I liked to party. I liked to, you know, hit the sauce.

• 32:35Andrea Gunning?

  But when Adam drank, chaos always seemed to follow. At the time, Adam was living with his parents.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  His parents basically said, you can stay here, but if you ever get drunk again, we're kicking you out. He was doing everything he could to like, push past those boundaries without getting caught.

• 32:55Andrea Gunning?

  Carl helped him with that.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  When he was drunk, rather than go home directly, I would show up right on time and we would be going to McDonald's or playing Pokemon Go or whatever, just to kill the time. I started getting into this trend of renting hotel rooms to rescue him from his parents so his parents wouldn't spot him being drunk. That started to really take off.

• 33:22Andrea Gunning?

  They got into a routine.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  And at first it was fun because it was like, you know, hey, if he's gonna drink, then whatever, I'll drink too. We'll just have a hotel party, whatever, no, no big deal, or we'll just have a night on the town.

• 33:34Andrea Gunning?

  The fun came first. Carl was 29 and in love for the first time. So he was okay with being part boyfriend, part drinking buddy, part caretaker. He was willing to do anything to feel close to Adam, at least for the time being.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  The whole thing was amazing, but I honestly had no idea how off the rails it was really going to go.

• 34:18Andrea Gunning?

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• 34:54Speaker 01

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• 35:09Andrea Gunning?

  One thing I've learned from producing true crime these past few years is that life can change in an instant. Most people never expect to find themselves in a dangerous situation. They're heading home from work, walking the dog, meeting a friend, traveling alone, and they assume it's just another ordinary day, until it isn't. That's why I want you to know about Saber Smart Pepper Spray. Yes, it's designed to help protect you, but what makes it different is the connected app. If you're ever forced to use it in an emergency, it can alert your emergency contacts and share your location. So when every second matters, the people who care about you most aren't left wondering where you are. They're not left searching, they're not left guessing, they know where to start.

• 35:53Andrea Gunning?

  We can't always predict the unexpected, but we can be prepared for it. Learn more at saberred.com/betrayal. That's saberred.com/betrayal.

• 36:05Andrea Gunning?

  Just as Carl was turning 30, his life was starting to take shape. He had his first boyfriend, Adam. And now that he had a boyfriend, he didn't see his friend Paul as much. Adam didn't like Paul, and Paul was busy with a new relationship of his own. But by this time, Carl had a ton of other queer friends in Madison. And he had a great job working in education policy for the state of Wisconsin.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  In like 2018 or 2019, I had heard that for state employees, they were going to cover gastric bypass. So I talked to my doctor and I was like, could I get signed up? And she's like, yeah.

• 36:46Andrea Gunning?

  For Carl, this was about much more than his appearance. He had high blood pressure and other health issues exacerbated by his weight. Still, gastric bypass surgery is not a quick fix. It's a commitment.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  It was like an eight-month program before the surgery.

• 37:03Andrea Gunning?

  Carl complied with all the diet and lifestyle changes required to move forward. The day arrived in early October 2020. Sitting in his hospital gown in a chilly prep room, Carl thought about the risks he was taking with this type of procedure. When he considered the worst-case scenarios, he thought of his boyfriend, Adam.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  I remember telling him before the surgery, if something happens to me in surgery, I just want you to know that I love you.

• 37:33Andrea Gunning?

  Thankfully, the surgery went well. In fact, it was life-changing. Over the next several months, Carl lost 150 pounds.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  I'm so glad that I did it. I went down from like a size 44 to a size 36. I do not have sleep apnea anymore, and my mental health had improved insanely.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  October 1st, 2020 was my surgery. I actually have that date tattooed on me.

• 38:04Andrea Gunning?

  Why?

• 38:05Speaker 02

  It was significant, like, it feels like it's a, uh, important milestone. It really feels like that was kind of one major step into me becoming myself.

• 38:19Andrea Gunning?

  Carl was improving his relationship with his body. He had embraced his sexuality and become part of the queer community. He had accomplished so many goals by his 30th birthday. If he could make his relationship with Adam what he envisioned, life would be perfect.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  My lease was coming up at my apartment in Madison, and I think that was when we had explored living together. So we landed in Burlington, where we went on our first date. So it felt like this was meant to be.

• 38:52Andrea Gunning?

  Carl thought the move would bring them closer, but it didn't take long for reality to set in.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Day one, he was at the bar downtown.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  I had gotten the keys. I started moving boxes. I wanted to show him the place. He'd gotten off work and he got real drunk. I was like, so what's gonna happen? Are you not excited about this? We just, I just signed a lease, we're gonna live together.

• 39:21Andrea Gunning?

  He was so hopeful, and he wanted this so badly, that he refused to see what was right in front of him. Adam had a problem. Drinking came first. That night, instead of talking things out and settling in at their new place, Adam got in his car. He sped off to his parents' house, drunk.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  I followed him home. He was driving into the wrong lanes. He luckily got to his parents' house, not without him going to the gas station on the way to get him some Jim Beam or whatever it was.

• 39:58Andrea Gunning?

  The next weekend, it was the same thing. While Carl was setting up the apartment, Adam got drunk.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  And I had a nervous breakdown on the carpet. Like, I laid on the floor just having a breakdown because he was completely wasted.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  I just signed this lease and I just uprooted my life and we're already off on this foot.

• 40:20Andrea Gunning?

  Then in the morning, Adam said just what Carl needed to hear.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  I'm really sorry. I'm going to cut back on drinking and I'm still committed to this relationship. We're going to work on this.

• 40:32Andrea Gunning?

  But come the next weekend, it was wash, rinse, repeat.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  Looking back on it, Adam was just simply not ready for a relationship. I did start to wonder if he was in this for the freedom of being out of his parents' house. I mean, I knew that when he moved back to his parents, that if they knew he was drinking, they would kick him out. I'd gone in with the intention of trying to rescue him because, you know, I loved him.

• 41:00Andrea Gunning?

  There's so much hope.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:02Andrea Gunning?

  Even if it's just like not meant to be and like this move should not happen, you want to believe.

• 41:07Speaker 02

  Right, right. And it was so impulsive. When he was eventually fully moved in, there would be drunken arguments all the time about any random thing. He asked one time if he could take my car to go to his parents' house to run a quick errand. And before you know it, he was gone for five hours. And he would come home completely drunk. And I'd be like, what the hell is going on in your mind? You said you were just going to be gone for an hour. You were gone for four or five.

• 41:38Andrea Gunning?

  Sometimes when the two of them were drinking, they got aggressive with each other, like this night.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  He's starting to get like belligerent, wants to start fighting. And I think he charged at me and I closed the door and then he starts kicking in the door. So the door is completely off the hinges and is damaged.

• 41:55Andrea Gunning?

  Carl was frustrated. He wanted to be enough for Adam, to be the reason he cut down on drinking. In his fantasy world, they would be the perfect couple. But Carl's day to day was much more about navigating the next blow up. Even in the thick of all of this, there were times when Carl felt like he was with the best version of Adam, the one he had fallen for. He saw it when, for Adam's birthday, they took a trip to Lake Superior.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Honestly, a whole different world from the rest of Wisconsin. This untapped natural beauty that like when you're in it, it just feels spiritual where you're there. We did a lot of hiking for three days, did a kayak tour. And we were on the beach, just looking out on the water. And he was like teary eyed because of just how beautiful the scenery was and how just perfect the trip was. And there was just something about it that felt so pure and so like, I was exactly where I wanted to be. And then we made little, you know, heart in the sand, you know, Carl and Adam 2021,

• 43:09Speaker 02

  and took pictures of that. It was just really adorable. Just something about that weekend, it was just magical, the whole thing from beginning to end.

• 43:19Andrea Gunning?

  For all the volatility in their relationship, moments like this made being with Adam feel worth it. There was no one else he'd rather drive for hours into the middle of nowhere with. No one who made him feel more comfortable or more attractive. It was worth all the chaos if, at the end of it, he could call this person his.

• 43:43Andrea Gunning?

  The vacation high felt good. It felt normal, but the peace didn't last.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  After we had gotten back, everything was like downhill after that.

• 43:55Andrea Gunning?

  More and more, Carl was at a loss. There were many nights when he drank with Adam just to feel connected to him and to numb his own pain. At other times, his frustrations would break through.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  When I got angry, I knew exactly what I needed to say for it to hurt. I'm not proud of that trait at all. Did I say things I didn't mean? Totally. 100%.

• 44:19Andrea Gunning?

  The two of them were going down a dark road. Carl knew that, but he wasn't ready to let go. He threw the relationship a Hail Mary.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  We got a dog together.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  We went to a animal shelter in one of the counties over and found the cutest little Beagle Basset Hound ever.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  I love dogs. He loves dogs, the whole bit.

• 44:45Andrea Gunning?

  Carl was smitten with the little guy.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  He was so friendly and he was like wagging his tail, giving us kisses.

• 44:52Andrea Gunning?

  This new addition was more than a pet. It was another step toward the life he hoped they were building together.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  It was like, yes, this is what could really seal the deal, you know, some shared investment in, you know, another life. We kind of feel like a little family, kind of just doing the thing.

• 45:10Andrea Gunning?

  As a tribute to the Cubs, they named their new dog Wrigley.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  It was such a band-aid. About two weeks later, we broke up.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  It was over the drinking. He was out at the bar all night. I think this was one of those, I'm going to have one beer kind of thing. And he didn't come home until like 3:00 AM or whatever it was. The next morning, I came in and he was visibly hungover. I said, this is done. We are not saving this relationship anymore. We tried. And after every single attempt, it always comes back to the same thing.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  You are packing your stuff and you are leaving.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  And he accepted that. And he did.

• 46:01Andrea Gunning?

  But that day of the breakup wouldn't be the last of Adam.

• 46:05Speaker 02

  Adam had been out of the apartment for about a week. It was after Thanksgiving and my birthday.

• 46:14Andrea Gunning?

  The whole family wanted a low-key celebration. His mom and sister had been there supporting him through the heartbreak. So that night, his family came over with some pizza, a birthday cake and beer. Carl's sister Rebecca remembers.

• 46:28Speaker 03

  It was a really peaceful night because we were just like, it's over. We could kind of get this in the past.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  I think we're probably about a half hour into hanging out when I get a knock at the door.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  I already knew who it was when I had heard it.

• 46:50Speaker 03

  Adam showed up. He comes to the front door and he was drinking quite heavily.

• 46:56Andrea Gunning?

  Carl blocked Adam from coming into the apartment. He wanted to keep whatever this was from escalating. His family was watching the whole thing.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  He's like, I just want to see the dog. I just want to see the dog. So I put Wrigley on the leash and I let Wrigley kind of do his thing. And, you know, I let Adam interact with him.

• 47:19Andrea Gunning?

  But after a few minutes outside, it became clear how drunk Adam was.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  And I'm like, I'm sorry, but you can't be here. When I told him that he needed to go, he was like, fuck you. I'm never talking to you again. Never speak to me again. This is the last time you're ever going to see me. And he hops in his car and he just speeds off.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  And I had this pit in my stomach.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  I'm thinking to myself, oh my God, something bad's going to happen. I'm thinking to myself, after the heat of that moment, I should have called an Uber.

• 47:57Andrea Gunning?

  The whole scene left a heavy air over the family party. Carl cleaned up and went to bed, but the moment haunted him. It was a night Carl would come to replay over and over in his head.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  I had no idea that everything to come and all of the chaos that all of us went through would come back to this moment.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  The next morning, I'm on a work call and all of a sudden my phone's getting blown up. Adam was calling from the Racine County Jail. He'd gotten in a car accident with another person and both of the cars were totaled.

• 48:35Andrea Gunning?

  Adam ran a red light and rear-ended another car. The other driver was a man in his 70s. Thankfully, both of them walked away with only minor injuries, which is a miracle because the front of Adam's car was completely crushed on impact.

• 48:53Andrea Gunning?

  For Adam, the accident was life altering because this was his fourth DUI. He was arrested on this scene and brought to jail.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  It was just like immense guilt, immense guilt that I was feeling. I should have called an Uber. I read the police reports and I was just immediately horrified. The police had opened up the door to Adam's car and all these empty alcohol bottles were located and things like that.

• 49:25Andrea Gunning?

  In December of 2021, Adam was sentenced to 15 months behind bars. He wouldn't be released until the spring of 2023. Adam and Carl called each other regularly in those first few months. The conversations grew increasingly tense.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  He said it quite frequently that like, yeah, he was upset that I didn't call an Uber.

• 49:47Andrea Gunning?

  They often got into it on the phone.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  And I heard a lot of stories about what he went through, especially being a gay man like in the Racine County Jail, not a pleasant experience at all. I was feeling a lot of guilt.

• 50:04Andrea Gunning?

  Eventually, Adam cut off contact entirely.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  He didn't want to talk to me anymore.

• 50:10Andrea Gunning?

  Suddenly, his greatest love was gone. The person he came to share every story, every laugh with, dreamed of a future with, disappeared from Carl's life. There was no chance of getting back together. But in his time of need, when he felt more alone than he'd felt in years, Carl reached out to his old friend Paul Augustine, the friend we told you about earlier, his first queer friend.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  I spent time with Paul significantly after Adam and I broke up.

• 50:48Andrea Gunning?

  Did he bring like laughter back into your life after this dark time?

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did. After what I had gone through, that's what I needed to cope. It was just nice to relax and not think about the reality of what I was facing.

• 51:04Andrea Gunning?

  There was more to their relationship this time around.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  I know it was a difficult time for him too, because his boyfriend had passed away and he was having a hard time of it himself.

• 51:16Andrea Gunning?

  Earlier that year, Paul's boyfriend died suddenly in the middle of the night, seemingly from health problems related to alcoholism.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  I think that shared experience of being two exes of individuals that have had significant alcohol problems, trying to make sense of a really traumatic fallout, Paul was there. He was somebody I could lean on for support.

• 51:45Andrea Gunning?

  Over dinners and drinks, or sitting on the couch in Carl's apartment, the two of them talked about everything, stories of hard conversations and blow up fights.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  I shared a lot of stuff about that relationship with him. He was somebody that I confided in quite a lot.

• 52:03Andrea Gunning?

  Carl felt safe with Paul, so much so that he opened up to Paul about his biggest fear. What was Adam going to do when he got out of prison?

• 52:13Speaker 02

  I don't know what his intentions are. Like, that was kind of what was going through my mind at that time.

• 52:21Andrea Gunning?

  Those calls from the early days of Adam's incarceration stuck with Carl, the way Adam blamed him for not calling an Uber, for letting him drive away. After getting transferred from the local jail, Adam was now serving his sentence at a state prison, and it was no country club. He was in the company of murderers, rapists, the most hardcore criminals in Wisconsin. Carl couldn't shake the question. When Adam got out, would he come looking for revenge? Carl didn't know it at the time, but from the moment Adam went away, a plan was set

• 53:00Andrea Gunning?

  in motion, a betrayal that no one would see coming, a long con so calculated and ruthless, it would leave their community in pieces. This season on Betrayal. Hello, this is Adam. You know who this is. He said someone there had a knife. He was asking me like, if I wanted you to kill somebody, how much would you charge?

• 53:25Speaker 03

  Yes, department! They basically put it all on me, like I was the one responsible for all of this shit. The obsession became insane.

• 53:35Andrea Gunning?

  What the fuck is going on? If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at [email protected]. That is [email protected]. Or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod or me at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review. Five star reviews go a long way.

• 54:17Andrea Gunning?

  A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique LaBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Mulcurey. Our associate producer is Lea Jablow. Additional support by Curry Richmond and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing, mixing, and mastering by Matt Delvecchio. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia, Matt Rolsey, and their communities.

• 55:01Andrea Gunning?

  Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready to hear more? Remember, you can get access to 100% ad-free episodes with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes one week ahead of everyone else. So open your Apple Podcasts app, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.

• 55:43Andrea Gunning?

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• 56:18Speaker 01

  OnePay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Builder Card results may vary and aren't guaranteed. Learn more about banking through OnePay at onepay.com/podcast.

• 56:33Speaker 06

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• 57:03Speaker 03

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• 57:21Speaker 03

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• 57:30Speaker 06

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• 58:03Andrea Gunning?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.