What a Divorce Lawyer Wishes Every Woman Knew About Money and Marriage

Every woman should understand the partnership she's entering before a crisis forces her to. This episode is that conversation. Laura Wasser has spent 32 years as one of the country's most sought-after divorce attorneys. She’s the person people call when a marriage is ending. But what makes this conversation so valuable is that almost everything she knows matters long before anyone gets divorced. This episode is about understanding what you are building when you merge your life with another person. Laura explains why marriage is already a contract with or without a prenup, how to protect yourself whether you earn more or less than your partner, and why knowing your financial reality doesn’t make you cynical or unromantic. It makes you an equal participant in your own life. Laura shares: How to have the what’s-mine-is-yours conversation about income, debt, assets, spending, and childrenWhat should go into a prenup—and what does not belong in oneHow a prenup can protect both the higher earner and the partner making financial or career sacrificesThe signs that you're giving away power inside your own marriage without realizing itWhy earning your own money doesn’t mean you’re financially protectedWhat to do when you realize you have no idea what is happening with your family’s financesHow to end a relationship with less fear and a clearer sense of what comes nextWhy divorce doesn’t have to mean you’ve failed—and how her online platform is making the process more accessible and less intimidatingFor more, subscribe to our weekly newsletter at emmagrede.com http://emmagrede.com.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Emma Grede?

  Today, I'm having a conversation with Laura Wassa, one of the most well-known divorce lawyers in the country. And yes, Laura is the person people call when a marriage is ending. But what makes this conversation so useful is that so much of what she knows matters long before anyone gets divorced. Laura's work sits at the intersection of love, money, power, family, and the law. She's seen what happens when people enter marriage without really understanding the contract they're signing. She has seen smart, capable women abdicate financial responsibility because it feels easier not to know. And she's seen how quickly a private relationship can become a legal and financial system. So we talk about the conversations every couple should have before marriage.

• 0:53Emma Grede?

  Why prenups are less scary than people think. What every woman should know about her money and how divorce can become less destructive when people slow down, get informed, and stop giving away their power. What I kept thinking throughout this conversation is that protecting yourself does not make you less romantic. It makes you honest about the life you are actually building with someone. This is Laura Wassa.

• 1:24Emma Grede?

  Laura Wassa, welcome to Aspire.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

• 1:28Emma Grede?

  I have to tell you, this morning, when my husband saw that you were on my schedule, there was like a minor freak out. He's like, "What are you doing?" I was like, "Calm down. It's just an interview. You don't need to panic." Is that quite usual for you?

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Yes, I get that a lot. Also, you know, people in L.A., a lot of people do lunch. I don't do lunch. Nobody wants to see me at lunch with their spouse or hear that I was at lunch.

• 1:48Emma Grede?

  That is so true. It's so true. So you're like uninvited?

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:52Emma Grede?

  Well, there's a reason for that because, of course, people know you as one of the most, if not the most famous divorce lawyer on the planet. But I actually, when I think about you and what it is that you do, I think that your work sits right at this intersection of business, money, power, relationships, self-agency. And you've seen what happens when private relationships become legal and financial systems. And I wonder, when you hear that, does that feel accurate to you at all?

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. I mean, because I think what a lot of people don't realize is that every relationship, and particularly a marriage, it is a contract. It is transactional. I know people think, "Oh, God, don't say that. That's so unromantic." But it is true. And so having a certain amount of understanding and expectations from each other is extremely important.

• 2:40Emma Grede?

  If a woman who's sitting here listening to this right now, someone who actually never imagines that she's going to need a lunch or to call you, what is the one thing that you would still tell her to do right away in this week?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Make sure that you have a good line of communication between you and your spouse. And that goes in all directions. I mean, it has to do with sexuality. It has to do with child rearing. But I think one of the things that you're getting at is it has to do with finances. And we see so many women, the generation above us for sure, but even in this generation, who kind of smart, educated women abdicate their financial responsibilities when they get married. Because, let's be honest, it's a pain in the ass. But if you're not paying attention, then you're not truly being a partner in the relationship. And you have much more exposure if things were to go wrong.

• 3:30Emma Grede?

  On the other hand, if you could get every woman in the planet to have an unsentimental conversation before getting married, what do you think that conversation would be about?

• 3:40Speaker 01

  I would say, let's talk about some of the not-so-sexy, not-so-pretty truths of what this is going to look like 10 years from now, 20 years from now, when I'm getting older, when my boobs are sagging. Even before that, when I'm on the delivery table giving birth and you're in the room, and we know that's not pretty. Let's talk about our love and how that's going to change and how we're going to grow and how we're going to evolve. Let's talk about the debt that I have from when I was in school. Let's talk about my parents coming to live with us because I don't want to put them in assisted living. Are you going to be okay with that? Let's talk about what religion, if any, we're going to raise our kids. These are not fun things to talk about. But if you are in a relationship and you have a partner and you're hoping it's going to last a long time, having those conversations earlier rather than later,

• 4:24Speaker 01

  maybe with a third person in the room, a counselor, just to hear and kind of mediate and be neutral and guide you, that's huge. Then, later on, when things may not be going so well, you can tap back into those conversations. And you don't have to say, "You said this then." But you can say, "Remember, we discussed this and I kind of want to get back into that and I see how that's evolved since we had that conversation."

• 4:45Emma Grede?

  How many people actually do that? Because it does sound, I mean, some of that feels deeply unromantic. Some of it feels damn right scary. And some of it just feels like, "Oh, I don't know if I ever want to have that conversation." Like, do people actually get down to the nitty-gritty before they even get married?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  I think the ones that do end up staying married. It's why I'm a big supporter of prenuptial agreements. Because the things I just mentioned aren't things that are going to go into prenuptial agreements.

• 5:11Emma Grede?

  No, they are not.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  That's going to be much more financial, balance sheet, you know, disclosure. These are things that go along with those conversations. And again, it's about having, it's about managing expectations. And although it may not be sexy or romantic, I mean, I haven't done ayahuasca or, you know, these drugs where you do it and your mind opens and you're so much better thereafter. You might throw up a few times at the beginning.

• 5:35Emma Grede?

  But apparently it works with some people.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  But when you get to the other end of those conversations, after the vomiting is finished, so to speak, I think both parties actually are like, "Wow, this is much better and we're stronger for it."

• 5:47Emma Grede?

  It's probably things like that that bring you closer together. Because like you said, half of that stuff never is even encompassed in a prenup. It's just not the same things that you talk about. It's more values-oriented than anything else.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 6:00Emma Grede?

  And that's what tears a marriage apart.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yes. So I think it's a good springboard to say like, now that we've had this prenup conversation and maybe the lawyers have discussed it, let's talk about some of the other stuff that's not so black and white, like kids and how we're going to raise them. Are they going to go to public school? Are they going to go to private school? Are we going to let them pierce their ears or cut their hair or, you know, get tattoos? Not when they're little kids, but maybe when they're teenagers. I've had, had people had very big fights about, "How could you tell him he could get a tattoo when he was 16? I would never agree to that."

• 6:28Emma Grede?

  Totally. And I think even when you're really aligned in your marriage, there are things that are pivotal that come up. So one of the things I want to talk to you about is what's in the zeitgeist recently around this book that Bell Burden wrote, right? Strangers. And this is, I'm sure it's something that you see a lot of, but it's one of those things that as a wife, like completely freaked me out. She's kind of blindsided, you know, they've spent decades together. I wonder what happens most frequently in those situations? Is that a couple just not living an aligned life together? Like, what is usually missing?

• 7:04Speaker 01

  A grasp on reality. And I don't know her, but I did read the book. And lots of people have asked me about the book, obviously. I don't really believe that people can be blindsided. Let me rephrase. They can be blindsided, but they shouldn't be blindsided. They're missing certain signs. And I have had people come into my office and say, "I can't believe he was sleeping with somebody else." And I'll say, "Just curious. When was the last time you guys had sex?" "Three years ago." And I feel like, "Oh, God, if he's not sleeping with you, he's sleeping with somebody." You know, same thing. I mean, it's, and it goes back and forth with the genders. I mean, I just can't believe that she's leaving me for someone who does what? Does what? Takes her to dinner, buys her a gift?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Relationships are transactional. I hate to say it, but it's true. And the sooner that we realize that, if you're not having sex, there's something wrong. Don't just ignore it. Get into some kind of a counseling, therapy, something, and have discussions about it. You think that's comfortable? No, it's not comfortable at all. But you have to, because if you don't, it just gets repressed and repressed and repressed. And again, they're going to sleep with someone else. They're going to do something that's going to hurt your feelings. And so I don't, I don't really think people should be blindsided. Also, we've filed divorce petitions and people say, "I can't believe that she's divorcing me." What do you mean, "You can't believe she's divorcing you"? I never recommend filing without telling the person first that this is coming

• 8:33Speaker 01

  or having them find out on TMZ. Not in my office, it doesn't happen. I would never let that happen. But I've had people say that. And I'm like, "Really?" Because here's the email that I saw her write you the day before we filed. So I don't know if that's a media thing or what it is. But I think this whole idea of being blindsided, definitely people can be upset. Definitely things can happen that you wish wouldn't happen. But people show you who they are. Even if they're showing you by avoiding or not saying something or not doing something. And I think if you really are attuned to the relationship, it's very difficult to truly be blindsided.

• 9:09Emma Grede?

  Do you see big differences between men and women when it comes to this whole conversation around being blindsided? Do you see that it happens more frequently for women, for example?

• 9:21Speaker 01

  No. I think that it happens more frequently for uh, non-breadwinners, interestingly, although that is changing too. But I think when you say the differences between men and women, what I find is differences between earners and not earners.

• 9:36Emma Grede?

  Oh, tap into that one. Tell me more.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  I think if you are the breadwinner, then you have much more of an idea of how finances work, how things work. You can feel more resentful about money that's being spent that you're earning and may not necessarily be viewed the same way. In terms of being blindsided, I think that a lot of time, breadwinners will go out with other male friends and talk about things. I think males have a different sense of what goes on and what's acceptable. I mean, if you're out with a bunch of girlfriends or on your annual trip and you know, a cute guy walks by, you'll maybe ogle him for two minutes. But then we go back to talking about our kids or fashion or when it's appropriate to get a facelift or whatever else. I think at a men's table.

• 10:19Emma Grede?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Check, check and check. I think at a men's table, it would be much more acceptable to invite the young woman to sit down with you. And then there's banter and whatever. I just think that this idea of, you know, and I think if you're a table full of women who are earners, I'm not saying that it would be different, but I think it's a different sense of responsibility in terms of finances for sure. And also in terms of representing them in a dissolution, easier to represent the breadwinner because they have more of an understanding that every quarter hour of the time that they're with you is being billed. Whereas on the other, I think they also have a better understanding of finances in the family often.

• 10:59Emma Grede?

  No doubt. So what do you do when somebody actually comes to you and they don't have a clue that they have been that person on the other side who has no idea about the family finances, no idea even what they have, what they're entitled to. Like, how different is that to representing the person that's the breadwinner in the family?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  It's not that different. It's just a different process. And a lot of times, particularly in this, I mean, I've been doing this now for 32 years. When I was representing that person 25 years ago, it was very different than representing that person today. That person today is so ashamed that they don't know. Whereas before, being, you know, the wife, the stay home, whatever. First of all, 25 years ago, there weren't that many men in that position. Now there are. A little bit more gender equality exists now. So you will have men that come in and say, I wasn't the breadwinner and I don't know and I need to find out and whatever. But there's a sense of shame that is attached to it in this day and age. And so the first thing that I will say is, listen, here's the good news. You're never going to be in this position again.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  We're going to find everything out because the state of California at least mandates full disclosure. So you will know everything going forward. And then because of this experience, you will be the master of your own financial destiny because you're going to have a nest egg and you're going to have a certain amount of support and you're going to be able to budget. And maybe you'll hire somebody to be an accountant or a business manager or a financial planner. But the days of not knowing, whether it was by your own choice or by your partner not letting you know are over. And this next chapter is going to be one where you educate and you are in control. And I think that really feels good for people.

• 12:35Emma Grede?

  Where do you see women giving away their power? Like, most frequently? Because I understand that there's a lot of, you know, they might not know about their accounts, their finances. They might not know about their debts. They might have left the workforce. But, but where do you most often see women giving away their power?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  I think a lot of times, for better or for worse, it comes when they decide to take a step out of the workforce and stay home. And it's really difficult for us. Do we stay home, raise our kids, enjoy all of that yummy time when you get to be the classroom mom? And when you get to pick up from school? And when you get to make the lunches? Some people don't love that, but people that do, now you're taking a step out of the workforce and that's where you're giving up some of your power there. No, you have probably more power in your house. A lot of times when I represent men that were the working spouses, the moms are like, well, I'm, we're not available that day. So you're not going to see the kids that day. And they're like, how am I going to get more time with my kids? Whereas, so there's more power there. But just power in terms of society, finances,

• 13:38Speaker 01

  and making whatever the deal is going to be in the divorce. We give up a lot of power when we step out of that workforce. And it's, it's a hard choice to make.

• 13:46Emma Grede?

  I want to rewind a little bit and talk about what happens before the divorce because I think a lot of women learn a lot once something goes wrong. But what should everybody really understand, both legally and financially, when they merge their life with someone else? Like, what is the starting point? And what do you counsel women to really understand? Like, what are the non-negotiables?

• 14:06Speaker 01

  I think the non-negotiables are have a joint bank account. And if you're both working or whoever's working, that money should go into the joint bank account. If you're not going to have a joint bank account and money is going somewhere else and then be fun, being funneled every month into a house account, you kind of need to know what is being earned. So, for example, the four corners of a divorce in California, not including child custody, are going to be what you own, your assets, what you owe, your debts, what you earn, your income, and what you spend, your expenses. That's it. I think everybody should kind of have a handle on that. And that's why I said, if you have a business manager, financial planner, get in there once a quarter. I'm sure you're getting credit card bills. I mean, I do. I've had some clients where the credit card bills are just going to the family office and being paid.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  But don't you want to look through and see what you're spending each month? What he's spending each month? I don't think that it should breed insecurity or suspicion, but it would, I want to see what's on my credit card bill because I want to make sure that I don't have any credit card fraud on there.

• 15:04Emma Grede?

  I think even as you say that, so many women just gasp. Because I think broaching that conversation and saying, hey, like, I would like our money to be joint and in one account. Like, again, if you're, you know, I've been married for 14 years and together 17. It's a very, very different place to be. But if you're not yet married and you're thinking about it and then you've decided to have this union, to then say, okay, like, I want our finances to be joint. Like, I can imagine that's really difficult.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Okay, well, here's something that makes it less difficult. When you get married in the state of California, absent a prenuptial agreement that says otherwise.

• 15:42Emma Grede?

  Oh, I know what you're going to say.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Every dollar that everybody earns is community property.

• 15:46Emma Grede?

  Can I tell you, I couldn't, I couldn't believe that. I was, because again, in England, it's completely different. And I remember getting like a, what do you call it? Like a joint tax return or whatever. I was like, what is this? What, what is this? What, what do you mean? I'm you, you're me. Like, there's no, you know, I literally couldn't, I found it unfathomable. But yes, of course, at that point, you're in a contract together in this state.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:08Emma Grede?

  And you are one.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  It's called community property. So when people say like, I'm not giving her my money. I'm like, you already gave her your money. It's not even your money. It's your money together.

• 16:16Emma Grede?

  But isn't that the very point of it though? Because we think about marriage as this beautiful, romantic institution. And at the end of the day, it is a contract. And with that contract, there are other matters that need to be thought about.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  I feel like that's the law. And when you get married, you, you sign a lot of contracts. The, the venue that you go to, the flowers, the cake, the band, right? Everybody's got such a problem with the biggest contract of all. But what they don't realize is you've entered into a contract, whether you have a prenup or not, when you walk down the aisle. Your money is going to be split. You write a screenplay during your marriage. That's half his. You paint a painting during the marriage. That's half hers. And if one of you makes more money than the other one, you're going to be paying the other person money to equalize the lifestyle if you split up. So the idea of a prenuptial agreement that may change some of those terms and go, hey, I've been doing what I do a long time

• 17:12Speaker 01

  and it took me a long time to get to a point when I earn X a year for being Laura Wasser. I don't know that I want 50 cents of every dollar going to you if we split up. So I'd like a prenuptial agreement that says X, Y, and Z. Or, look, I think you're great, but I don't feel comfortable with my family's trust money distributions that may help us live when we're together, going to pay you spousal support if we ever split up. My parents aren't okay with that at all. Those are the conversations that I think should be had. And when people say, oh, I don't want to have a contract, you have a contract when you get married.

• 17:48Emma Grede?

  I, I mean, I'm going to grill you about prenuptial agreements because having got married 14 years ago, not, there was, there was some conversation, but not nearly as much as there is today. And I was absolutely hell-bent on it, especially considering my position, you know, when I met my husband, you know, neither of us had anything. I should just say that very, neither of us. I did not marry a rich man, for all of the bitches out there that want to say differently. But, you know, when you marry someone and you are both basically broke and you don't have much, you want to make sure, especially somebody like me who is super ambitious, that you are going to get what you create, that that is going to remain yours. And actually, what was so shocking to me is that once you turn up here,

• 18:33Emma Grede?

  my prenup was null and void. If I had done it, it was like, okay, you have to start again. But we're going to get into prenups. I, I feel like you must have seen so many women's financial lives like just crumble or hit a wall. And I keep going back to this idea of patterns. What is it that you see time and time again? Is it just that they didn't have a prenuptial arrangement? Or is there something else there?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  I think, like I said, it's this abdication of financial knowledge and responsibility.

• 19:02Emma Grede?

  Meaning that they just didn't want to know?

• 19:04Speaker 01

  No idea.

• 19:04Emma Grede?

  They decided that that wasn't, that's something that they're going to outsource and give to the spouse and allow somebody else to get on with it?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Yes. And some of the really scary situations are when things were going poorly for that family and he didn't want to tell her. He didn't want to say, things have really gone bad and we have to budget more and we have to be careful because his job was being the breadwinner and he was paternalistic and he was taking care of everybody because she said, I don't want to know and I don't care. I'm going to leave it to you. I will make the dinner reservations, raise the kids, have your, you know, bosses over for dinner. And then they get divorced and they have less than they thought or less than she thought. And they were living beyond their means. And she really has to dial it back and says, how could you have let this happen to us? And he says, well, you didn't ever want to know. Again, you share the good, you share the bad.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  You communicate and you talk about what's going on because you are partners.

• 20:07Emma Grede?

  What happens when the shoe's on the other foot? Because you obviously represent a lot of women who are the breadwinners. What actually changes when a woman is the one who earns more?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Way more angry when they get divorced and have to give up half of it.

• 20:21Emma Grede?

  What do you mean?

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Are they way more angry?

• 20:22Emma Grede?

  We went to business school.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  That's exactly how I would feel. We went to business school together and we are both superstars. And we were the ones that were supposed to just kill it in the world. And he's been lying there in his boxers writing a scream, boy, for five years. I'm making all this money and now you're telling me half of it's his. Half of my 401K is his. I'm gonna have to pay him spousal and child support. Kill me now.

• 20:43Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I can understand that. I think that my husband would be so gracious and I would be the opposite of gracious.

• 20:51Emma Grede?

  But I guess a lot of women think that earning more protects them, but it doesn't.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  No, and in fact, you have a lot of women that say, I'm the earner. He's gonna deal with the money. So then they find out that they've been working their asses off. And somehow the investments haven't gone well, or they went somewhere else, or maybe they got spent on someone else. That's very angry too. So yeah, I think sometimes we think if we're like the badass and we're out there working, that we're gonna be protected. But I mean, you can't take your eye off the ball. Not because you don't trust your spouse, just because it's your responsibility to be a part of that too. You called it financial health. It kind of is. It would be like if you just kinda stopped going to the gym and eating healthy.

• 21:30Emma Grede?

  Oh, really?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  And didn't pay any attention anymore to how you looked, or how your heart was beating, or how your blood was flowing. You have to pay attention.

• 21:37Emma Grede?

  What do you think is the difference between women that walk out of a divorce, like financially intact, and the ones that don't? Like, do you think it's luck? Is it a good lawyer? What does that look like?

• 21:49Speaker 01

  A lot of it will have to do with the lawyers. I will often say to somebody, well, who's on the other side? Because remember, as divorce lawyers, we make money when you guys are arguing. Okay? So some would say that it's not in our best interest to have it go down really copacetically and smoothly. Because if we drag it out longer, it'll cost more money. I'm lucky. We have a lot of clients. I never am hurting for the next case. So we do like to get it over. And I have massive attention deficit disorder. So I don't like to have any cases going for too long. That being said, the ones that go well are when both people really respect each other. And remember, especially if they have kids, they're gonna know each other for the rest of their lives. It's the only kind of law, I mean, estate law to a certain extent,

• 22:34Speaker 01

  if you're dealing with siblings or family members. It's the only kind of litigation where you're gonna still know this person. You get into a car accident, you see the person, you're never gonna see them again. Landlord, tenant, you're never gonna see them again. You get into a contract dispute with somebody in business, you're probably not gonna see them again. You're gonna see this guy again. You're gonna see him at the wedding, you're gonna see him at the graduations, you're gonna see him at the births. So you have to figure out a way to do it civilly. And the added bonus is, you're gonna save money. There's anything that the two of you can work out, and you don't need me writing some nasty letter about it, is better.

• 23:06Emma Grede?

  So what do you advise? Because obviously, there's a moment when that anger just subsides, right? Whatever's happened to get you to the divorce, there's this heightened moment. Then hopefully you calm down a little bit, you've figured out what's going to happen. How do you get people there quicker?

• 23:23Speaker 01

  I think a lot of times also, there's not even that anger that you're talking about. A lot of times, they're just kinda sad and they just kind of outgrew each other and moved in different directions or whatever. So that obviously the first step.

• 23:33Emma Grede?

  Do you have a lot of just very smooth divorces?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really do. I think it's easier now than it used to. Also, remember, most people that I'm representing are high net worth and we're in a city where everyone's in counselling.

• 23:43Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  So they've already talked about this 10,000 times to Sunday.

• 23:47Emma Grede?

  They've done the work, they're gonna consciously uncouple.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:50Emma Grede?

  And they love their kids and they're just gonna figure it out.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  And so we do mediation, we have a retired drug that's going back and forth between two conference rooms. We've got forensic accounts and it ends up working out. I do have a lot of those. Most of mine are like that. Are there still some that are really...

• 24:04Emma Grede?

  Is that just about the money? Or do you think that's about the kind of the broader landscape here? Of like how people behave with the counselling?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  I think it's the broader landscape too. I think people come into it also knowing what to expect with regard to custody. I mean, people used to come in and say, I'm willing to let him have, you know, the kids half the time, but he can't have his girlfriend around them. And I'm like, no, that's not gonna work. He's gonna do what he's gonna do when the kids are with him. I mean, where it gets tough is somebody's moving across the country. You can't just share the kids every two days if somebody's living on the East Coast. So those are the tough ones. Or figuring out if there's a company that was started before marriage, but throughout the marriage, one person worked for the company and really increased the value of the company. Those are the more complex ones. And we can work those out too. But that's when they come in and they're not completely sure how this is gonna go down.

• 24:54Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  And they're motivated by fear a lot of the time. Once you know, you feel a lot better.

• 24:59Emma Grede?

  No doubt. And then maybe once you're their lawyer, you feel a lot better too.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  I hope so.

• 25:03Emma Grede?

  I wanna talk to you about protection and prenups. Because prenups are something that really frighten people. And they immediately have like a negative connotation. People always hear that and they think like, you know, if you brought up the conversation of a prenup, it's dirty, you don't believe in us. How do you counsel people to even have that conversation? And how do you reframe the conversation?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  I think prenups have a bad rap.

• 25:28Emma Grede?

  They do, don't they?

• 25:29Speaker 01

  And it's better than it used to be. I mean, now we have things online and there's a great, for people that don't necessarily have a ton of money to spend on a prenup, there's a great company that I'm involved with called Hello Prenup. And you can go online and you can look at the prenups and you can talk about the prenups and you can do it for much less than it would cost for my office to draft a prenup. I think that the taboo is easing a bit. I'm seeing a lot more prenups than I used to. It's a lot more normal. It used to be like we would do a prenup and if I'd run into somebody at a party a couple of weeks later, they'd be like, you know...

• 25:58Emma Grede?

  Oh, yeah, they'd be embarrassed to know you.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  No, it's, she did my prenup, hey, Lauren. I'm like, okay, hi.

• 26:03Emma Grede?

  No, no, no, I remember. I actually did a post-up, not a prenup. We had the conversation before and then didn't get to the paperwork. But my friends thought it was tremendously unromantic and would be really off putting. And they're like, well, if you're the one bringing it up, Emma, like, there's a huge risk there. And I was like, a risk for what? Like, he's not gonna marry me? Like, that's crazy to me.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  It is crazy.

• 26:22Emma Grede?

  But I do, I still think there's a lot of stigma around it.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  There is a stigma. I think we're getting past it a little bit. But I do, the people that I've worked on prenups for, here's the two best things about them. One, you're having those conversations, you're having disclosures about what each of you expect, and you're acknowledging that this marriage is a contract and how it works. And I think that really starts the marriage off with a much better beginning and leads to much more of a chance of success. And then in the situation that it doesn't succeed anyway, for whatever reason, you're having a lot less of a messy divorce. You really are. And you're paying a lot less money to lawyers. You're expending a lot less negative energy arguing about things because you already know what's there. And I would say 80% of the time, if I have somebody whose prenup I did come to me

• 27:09Speaker 01

  and is getting divorced, he or she will say, I know these are the terms of the prenup. I'm gonna throw an extra whatever it is on top, just because he or she was a great spouse and it ended, but nobody's fault and whatever. And this is money that I would have otherwise spent on lawyers and everything else if we didn't have it.

• 27:25Emma Grede?

  So I'm happy to give it. What's a red flag in a prenup though? Because you definitely go into a prenup thinking, I'm gonna do what's fair. I'm sure you've seen times where something has been really pushed and you're like, that's actually not fair. That's somebody taking advantage.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Well, there's one, one part of a prenup that could make it not valid and forcible. And that's if it's unconscionable. So if a super, super wealthy person is marrying somebody that has ultimately nothing and they're going to live together for a long period of time, and hopefully, and the person says, I want you to waive your right to spousal support if we get divorced and you won't be getting anything, that's unconscionable. So I will often say to people, well, let's just not get too crazy. Let's not be too cheap about this. We need to make sure that if you guys did split up, she or he wouldn't challenge the prenup as being unconscionable. So that's one thing. A lot of people also ask for things that you couldn't put in. People always talk about these adultery clauses.

• 28:22Emma Grede?

  This is all the time. I hear that all the time.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  We don't have those here, okay? So we can't have that.

• 28:26Emma Grede?

  We do in England, by the way.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  I know in England they do. And there's some other states in the US that do. We don't. So as much as you might wanna have, if she does this...

• 28:34Emma Grede?

  If he cheats on me?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  I get an extra $1 million. No, okay? It's just, we have found in California, just like, that's why we're a no-fault state, it's too hard to prove that stuff. Or it's too easy to fake it, is what it really is. And so you get into these evidentiary challenges and huge litigation and it's not right. But people say that about other things. I actually had a guy say, can we put in something that if after she has the baby, she doesn't lose the baby weight within a certain period of time, then I don't have to pay her ex? And I'm like, not only can we not say that, have that in the agreement...

• 29:07Emma Grede?

  You're an asshole and I'm gonna tell your wife.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  We're not saying it anywhere near her. Please, what would, what would make you say that? But again, now we had that conversation and now he doesn't make the mistake of saying something that stupid to her. So I figure it's good. We're having these conversations, we're talking about it, whether it's me and my client or the two people together. And you're getting to a point where you have an understanding of what you may not have understood before.

• 29:30Emma Grede?

  What is the most crazy shit that people ask for? When they get into those conversations, apart, apart from what you've just told me?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  That was pretty crazy. But I've actually had people that have lived together for a long period of time. A woman said to me like, can I say something about if he doesn't? This drives me crazy. He doesn't put the toilet seat down. And I will go in and I will fall in the toilet in the middle. I said, this is a little bit more of a professional... No, we can't put that in. How are we gonna prove that? Are you gonna take a picture every night at 3:00 in the morning when you go into the bathroom?

• 29:57Emma Grede?

  But that's how people get, that they wanna go down to that type of detail.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  When you're, you know, if you're negotiating... Something you start thinking about all the things that could happen and what you could put in there and how it could be. We've also had things about getting tested for sexually transmitted diseases. We put that in there. Those you can put in, but you can't attach a penalty to it if you get them. But you could file a tort claim if somebody gave you a sexually transmitted disease. So I guess you've got that. You can't necessarily waive your right to be able to sue somebody if you get one. But even having that conversation with two people who are in love and getting married is a bit odd. And I think sometimes family law attorneys really need to think about the fact that like, in this instance, we're really trying to facilitate a contract and then a wedding. We're not trying to divorce these people.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  We're trying to make sure they get married. And because we all are doing the same work, I have to remind colleagues of that sometimes because it can be very frustrating. I'm like, I know you're a divorce lawyer. I am too. But we're trying to help these folks.

• 30:55Emma Grede?

  Yeah. This is it. We're at a different stage of this marriage.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Calling her that bitch is not helpful.

• 31:00Emma Grede?

  No, absolutely not. So for a woman who's got less money than her partner, how should she think about a prenup so that it protects her?

• 31:08Speaker 01

  I think she should think about certain standards because again, that woman might be giving up other opportunities she had, either to marry somebody who was willing to share more money with her or to continue in the workforce and earn more money. Maybe she's marrying him and he wants her to travel with him or stay home or whatever. So she may be stepping out of the workforce. So she's giving up other opportunities. She may say to him, because I'm giving up those opportunities, I don't want you sheltering all of the money you earned during our marriage. I want to have some of it that's going towards me and this partnership and what we're doing. So she might ask for a portion of what's being earned in any given year to go either towards the community, which would mean she'd get half of it, or just simply to her. An annual gift is something we do a lot of the time.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  So he's earning that money on his own and then annually there's money that goes into a fund for her. How about saying any purchases of homes that we purchased after our primary one is going to be owned as community property or jointly? And then I would also talk about spousal support and say, look, you may want to limit spousal support, but when we get married and you continue to earn more money and now we're only flying private and only staying at five star resorts and only going to very expensive delicious restaurants and getting beautiful gifts every year for anniversaries, I don't want to be cut out of that by having a low cap on whatever spousal support we're talking about. So I want to make sure we have spousal support at a higher amount that would otherwise be even given to me under the law.

• 32:33Emma Grede?

  Okay. But what happens if, because even as you speak, right? That feels like somebody who's just living the most spectacular life. What if you marry, you know, it's like you are a regular girl marrying a regular guy, but he's still making more money than you. There is no expectation that you're going to fly around the world after him, but there is an expectation that when you have children, perhaps you're going to take the lead in that. Like, what does that girl ask for?

• 32:59Speaker 01

  I think she asked for application of the law in California as opposed to being excluded from community property. Because if they're getting a prenup, it's because he's saying, I don't want all of the income to be community property. So she says, fine, maybe you don't want all of it, but you can't keep it all yourself.

• 33:15Emma Grede?

  So this becomes so much of a conversation about visibility.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 33:20Emma Grede?

  Like what is being earned in that marriage?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  And then all the more reason why you don't then just go, cool, I'm out. I have all kinds of prenups where spouses agree to do certain things on an annual basis. And then I see them 10 years later and I'm like, were you actually doing that each year? Were you giving those distributions?

• 33:36Emma Grede?

  Probably not.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Oh, I kind of forgot.

• 33:46Emma Grede?

  It's so interesting to me that people would even get to the point of marriage where they don't know what their spouse earns.

• 33:53Speaker 01

  It might be interesting to you, but I guarantee you at least five of those girls that have gone on that trip may not know what their spouse is earning and what they're spending and what their mortgage is.

• 34:03Emma Grede?

  I mean, how are you marrying someone and you don't know what they've got?

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Well, how about you don't know what they owe?

• 34:09Emma Grede?

  I'm like literally looking around the room. It's like, yeah, I mean, that could be a trickier.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  You'll all know by this time next week, won't you?

• 34:15Emma Grede?

  That could be a trickier one. I'm like literally, you don't know, because that's part of it, right? Like no sooner do I not want to, you know, I don't know, understand what's happening in your shoe closet than understand what's happening in your bank account. Like, I need to know.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  How about people that get married and there's huge debt, huge student debt, huge credit card debt, huge child support to a child from a previous relationship? And you're sending him off to work every day and part of that check is going to his ex to pay for that kid. Don't you kind of need to factor that into the equation?

• 34:43Emma Grede?

  Definitely need to factor in. But I guess the red flag is when you're in a relationship, if there's not transparency there from the get go, right? Because do you even need to get to the prenup conversation to be having that?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Right. And then people say, well, when's the right time? Do I say that at the first date? Like, listen, I'm going to need, we needed a financial spreadsheet, whatever.

• 35:01Emma Grede?

  I don't think it's first date, but you know, it might be. So let's just flip this on, you know, on the other, put the shoe on the other foot. If the woman is the higher earner and she has a husband who's earning a lot less, what does she need to understand to protect what she's creating? Like, I do remember thinking, I'm either earning exactly the same or possibly more than he's earning right now. And I knew that I would earn a lot of money in my future. And so I was really serious about the idea of protecting what I earned. And within that conversation, it was like cards out on the table. What do you have? What do I have? I definitely didn't explicitly ask about debt and I should have, but you know, I was like, what do we have?

• 35:45Emma Grede?

  What do we collectively have together? And how is this going to change? And I felt very clear about protecting what I was creating, which at that time was a very small, tiny agency, but I knew I was going to sell it and I did imminently. And I was like, that's my money. Like, I don't want you to have that.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  How did having that conversation feel though?

• 36:04Emma Grede?

  Well, it felt very on brand for me. I don't think he was surprised because he knew exactly who I was.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Think about what you just said. He knew who you were. He loved you for who you were. And having that conversation was on brand and he got it. If he had said, I don't want to have this conversation. This is making me feel very uncomfortable.

• 36:21Emma Grede?

  I would have been very shocked.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Or ew, why are we talking about money? He may not have been the right person for you.

• 36:25Emma Grede?

  Yeah. And I think that that's what it would come down to. Like, you just wouldn't have been the right person for me. Also, again, when you know someone, you know who they are, you know where they come from, there's an appreciation of what it took for them to build something that has to be an understanding of why you would feel like that. So what do women do? Like, because what I did was have a conversation. I was like, here's how I feel. I'm probably going to sell this agency in a couple of years and I don't want you to profit from that. Like, that was it. It was that straightforward.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Right. So not everyone's you or me, and they're not always going to feel that comfortable. But that's another thing. You come to the table and you say, look, I'm uncomfortable talking about this, but I'd really like to have a conversation about finances and about what I have and you have and how we like to spend. And again, if that person sitting across the table from you is someone who loves you and who's going to be able to grow with you, he or she will understand that this is something that's important that may have been hard for you to talk about because you're not Emma, you're not Laura, you're somebody that is maybe a little bit more nervous. Maybe you were raised in a family that didn't talk about money, whatever. And they're going to work through that. And that's why I think sometimes having a third person there that is a mental health professional can go, no. Because if the person goes, I don't want to talk about this. No, no, no. We have to talk about this and this is why and whatever.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  And maybe that person doesn't need to know your actual financial, you know, makeup. But having those conversations and again, having them with somebody that you're hoping to live with for a very long time, maybe till death do you part, that's important.

• 37:47Emma Grede?

  It's just so important. So when a woman comes to you and her marriage is ending, what is the first thing that you tell her?

• 37:57Speaker 01

  This too shall pass. It's going to get better. And I also will say, find your support group, whether that's the gals from book club or your mom or sister. Find your support. Be good to yourself, whether that's a facial or a massage or a trip to Cabo or a pickleball membership or whatever. Do something that you really need for you because you're not going to be able to be a great mother getting through this. You're not going to be able to be a great co-parent going through this and you're not going to be able to be the strongest, best version of yourself as we begin the education about your finances and the negotiation about your settlement. And then I say, and get ready for your next chapter.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  Because unlike past generations, people are not staying married as long. God bless those of you who do. It's great and you are the lucky ones, but there are frankly more people who don't stay married than those who do. So it's pretty common. It shouldn't be as taboo as it always has been. It's not a failure. It's kind of a fact of life. So now what are we doing in our next chapter? Particularly where people are young and living longer and looking better longer and sexually active longer. What's next? We're not going to just crawl up in a hole and die. How are we now going to take that trip to Europe we always wanted to, or the language class we always wanted to, or the photography class we always wanted to? How are we going to meet the people that we didn't ever get to know before?

• 39:20Speaker 01

  How are we going to be a better parent to our child because now we're not stuck in a relationship where one or both of us was miserable? What is my next chapter going to look like?

• 39:29Emma Grede?

  What do you think your clients have taught you about kind of rebuilding identity after like someone's, you know, after the partnership falls apart and, you know, perhaps the co-parenting year is over? What does that even look like?

• 39:40Speaker 01

  I think it looks like whatever you were missing during that relationship. I have a lot of friends that have just become empty nesters and the ones that are really having a blast are really recreating their relationships and their partnerships. And they are traveling and they're coming up, because a lot of them are also kind of easing back from the workforce. So they're traveling together and they're really building a world around, we can do, we can have sex in the middle of the day. You know, the kids aren't coming home from school. We don't have to worry about. And those are the ones that are kind of rediscovering themselves. And I guess that the ones that split up, one or both of them is rediscovering themselves just without the other person.

• 40:17Emma Grede?

  Yeah, no doubt. God, how miserable. What a thing to even think about. Do you feel like, this is such a fucking weird question. Is your job really miserable?

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Sometimes. You know what it is?

• 40:29Emma Grede?

  I have such a nice job. I'm thinking, I would die if I was coming to Europe this in the morning.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  You know how when you guys go out to dinner with a couple and they're kind of bickering the whole time? You go home and you go, oh my God, baby, I love you so much.

• 40:40Emma Grede?

  I love you so much.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  That's kind of like my job. I go home and I'm like, God, my life is so good. I'm not those miserable people.

• 40:47Emma Grede?

  No doubt. Laura, what makes you able to do your job? Because it is, you said like black heart, I didn't say that, but what is it that enables you to be like actually really great at this, but also to be able to kind of stomach it?

• 41:02Speaker 01

  To keep it.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  I think the thing that makes me good at it, I wouldn't go so far as saying great, is I really enjoy the element of human nature, learning about people, learning about their stories. Like I said, I do have ADD, so I don't, I couldn't be somebody that was in a long term negotiation over oil rights or whatever else. I want to hear the story. I want to get to know the people. I want to get them through it and be their like shepherd through this process and then bye bye.

• 41:34Emma Grede?

  See you later.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  And for me, that problem solving element and that being able to get through it in a way that makes sense for everybody is very satisfying.

• 41:43Emma Grede?

  One of the things that I wanted to talk to you about was like the idea of like the business of divorce, because of course you represent a lot of very wealthy clients, but you did start an online platform that basically took away some of the complexity and the burden and indeed the costs. And then I think you actually ended up like selling that company, right? Well, you just talk a little bit about that and what that looked like for you.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  So I started practicing family law in 94. One of the things that I noticed again and again and again is that that unknown and that frightenedness was something that people really made it much more difficult. So then I thought, okay, what else can we do for normal people that aren't high net worth or celebrities to get divorced? So we started It's Over Easy, which is an online divorce platform.

• 42:29Emma Grede?

  It's a great name, by the way.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  I thought so.

• 42:32Emma Grede?

  Better than divorce.com.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Well, divorce.com, you know, was a bigger kind of endeavor.

• 42:36Emma Grede?

  Well, they acquired you in the end, right? I mean, it's fine, but I really liked the name. I thought the name was great.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  But if you're about to get divorced, you're not like looking, it's over easy. You're looking up like divorce and then divorce.com is right there. So you can't really think that much about like a cute name. You're getting divorced, you're miserable, right?

• 42:50Emma Grede?

  It's miserable.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  So divorce.com, it gives people, most importantly, a lot of information, but it also allows you to do it yourself, which I would say 75% of divorces, you really can. Even the high net worth ones, there's a certain amount of money. Like I said, you're dividing it in half, you're coming up with support, you're selling assets, you're dividing things, you're moving on. So at the time, people weren't necessarily super comfortable banking online, dating online. Now we all are. So hopefully divorce.com will really take off because it's the kind of thing, I think, if I was getting divorced, I would for sure want to do it online. Who wants to go to Century City and valet park your car and figure out which elevator banks? It's so surreal. Anyway, if you can sit there in your pajamas with

• 43:32Speaker 01

  a big glass of wine and be doing your divorce online, way better, right? And less expensive.

• 43:37Emma Grede?

  I mean, actually, yes.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  You might just want to try it just 'cause, right?

• 43:42Emma Grede?

  Please, please God, no.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Bruce has to see your name on, my name on his, your calendar and then he has to see you going through the divorce.

• 43:48Emma Grede?

  Can you imagine? It's like divorce.com, poor guy. He'd have a breakdown, let me tell you. What resistance did you get from like your industry and your colleagues? Because essentially like you're taking something away from, you know.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  You're cannibalizing us and why would you do that?

• 44:02Emma Grede?

  You're chipping in us, girl.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  I said, there's always going to be plenty of cases for all of us. You don't need to worry. Most of them don't like me that much anyway, so it's okay. But I don't, I don't think I took anybody's business away by working on that company.

• 44:13Emma Grede?

  You don't?

• 44:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:14Emma Grede?

  Was it a good business for you that you managed to exit? Was it, did it end up being something that was lucrative for you or is it more about the actual service of it?

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Well, it was, would have been about the being lucrative if it had been lucrative, but it was not lucrative. So I guess I will play the very idealistic part of saying it was, it was about the experience and helping people, Emma. That's what it was. I wasn't in it for the money.

• 44:34Emma Grede?

  You weren't?

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yes, I was and it didn't work.

• 44:37Emma Grede?

  What did you do wrong? I need to, I need to understand what happened.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  I think people weren't ready yet to get divorced online.

• 44:42Emma Grede?

  It was too early, it was before its time.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. But it's there now. I don't, I mean, I'm not sure exactly how they're doing.

• 44:46Emma Grede?

  And you have nothing to do with it. You exited it.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I'm still the, I'm the head of divorce evolution for them and I'm still the face of them when they call me, but they don't call me that often. So I'm not sure. It's a great platform and I do recommend it to anybody that is getting divorced and wants to see if they can do it. They, I mean, a lot of starter marriages, people that are young, they don't have kids yet, they don't really have anything, they're just dividing. So I mean, that's, that was me. I would have used divorce.com. I got married in 93. I was married for 14 months. We didn't have anything to divide. That would have been a great platform for me to go on if it existed then. So I think people will use it. I think people should use it. It really is a fantastic vehicle for people that don't want to spend their last dollars getting divorced.

• 45:39Emma Grede?

  I'm interested to talk to you about your own marriage because you did get divorced and you represented yourself.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Well, my dad made me.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  It actually wasn't, it wasn't a divorce. We got an annulment because back in those days you still could. And I actually knew the judge because he was friends with my dad. So I said, you know, can we do this? But now it's a lot more difficult to get an annulment. You really have to jump through more hoops. But like I said, we weren't married for very long. We didn't have any children. We maybe had some debt. We didn't have very many assets. We divided up the wedding gifts and the credit card debt and I had a pit bull that he let me keep and that was kind of it. And then I really never needed to get married again, even though I had two kids with two other people that I wasn't married to. I had that wedding dress at the Bel Air Hotel and all my friends and I got the pictures and it was great. Everybody should do it once.

• 46:28Emma Grede?

  Everybody should do it once. Are you skeptical about marriage now? Is that why you never married?

• 46:32Speaker 01

  No, I just feel like I'll never look as good as I did in those pictures from 1993. So why would I get married again?

• 46:38Emma Grede?

  You look so good now. No, do you really believe that?

• 46:41Speaker 01

  I just believe that I don't.

• 46:42Emma Grede?

  I mean, you have a very, very handsome boyfriend sitting outside. Even if I do say so myself.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  He's gorgeous and wonderful, but we decided early on that we didn't need to get married. We, I don't think there's any issue with monogamy or commitment, but I do have kind of an issue with letting the state in on my personal affairs. I don't know that being married would make our bond any stronger, but it would certainly cause us to file taxes differently and have people more involved in what we do. And I don't, I'm not down with that.

• 47:11Emma Grede?

  Do you think that there are any of the, like just in terms of the conversations that we've been having around financial visibility, having some of those bigger conversations, does all of that still stand, whether or not you're going to marry the person?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Well, it depends. I mean, it depends how much you're pooling your income. I will say this, you know, we got together about almost a year and a half ago and we're both in our mid to late 50s. And I think I've spoken more about my financial situation with Jason than I ever have with anybody that I've been with.

• 47:44Emma Grede?

  That's interesting.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Just because I know him and I feel comfortable and he knows me and we're both similarly situated. We don't live together, so we don't really pool our income right now, but he and I are definitely aware of what each other has and what each other makes and our estate plans and stuff like that, because between us, we've got six kids. But I think some of that also just comes with being a little bit older and a little bit more mature about things. I was never comfortable talking about the money that I made with my exes. I just, I didn't feel it was right. And again, we, even if we had kids together, I would say, well, I'll pay for this and you pay for this and that's how we'll do it. But I didn't really, I wasn't as, I didn't.

• 48:19Emma Grede?

  Forthcoming.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 48:20Emma Grede?

  Even though that's what you talk about all the time?

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:24Emma Grede?

  Why? Because you were the main breadwinner?

• 48:25Speaker 01

  In some circumstances.

• 48:27Emma Grede?

  You were rolling in the cash. But what was it? Where did that come from? You were like, I'm making so much money. I just don't want you to know.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  No, I don't know. I think maybe something about what I do just made me very private about it. And again, also knowing that we hadn't pooled income, you know, that I, why, you don't need to know that, you know, we'll each pay for half of private school tuition and we'll each pay for whatever. I also think it was because I was younger and I just wasn't, I don't even know that I was particularly secure about how much money I was making.

• 48:55Emma Grede?

  That's a very female trait.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Hmm. I know. I mean, that's why I'm so hip to it because I understand it from personal experience that it is, it's, you know, one, I talk about it all the time and you don't necessarily want to be the wealthier person. I was talking to Chloe on her podcast about this. You go to dinner and you have to give your boyfriend the credit card so that he can pay for dinner because he doesn't make as much as you and you're with your friends at an expensive restaurant. That doesn't feel good for anybody, but it is what it is. Sometimes if this is the restaurant you're going to go to.

• 49:25Emma Grede?

  I think I have plenty of girlfriends who are in a very similar position. They might have bought their own engagement ring, for example. They might be paying for their own weddings. And there still is so much stigma around that. Like, is that just what's in the culture? Like, where does that come from? And do you see that coming? Like, do you see that shifting and changing?

• 49:43Speaker 01

  I hope it does. I mean, I'm kind of past the point of it, but I do feel that for other young women, I hope it does. I hope that people could say like, do you like my ring? I bought it myself. He helped me pick it out. There's something very empowering about that, but I also can see a lot of women going, oh, that's so sad. Or even going, oh, I bet she bought it herself.

• 49:59Emma Grede?

  Well, and also it's the judgment of other women.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Yes, when we're the hardest on each other.

• 50:04Emma Grede?

  Absolutely.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Dudes don't care who bought the ring. They're like, that's fantastic. Do you have a woman that bought her a ring?

• 50:08Emma Grede?

  At least you got the ring you wanted. Like, no, dudes would never care. It wouldn't even be like, you didn't buy her the ring? Like, absolutely not.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  However, they may not care, but when you are the male in a relationship and the female's earning more and paying for more and whatever, it is often, I have found, very difficult to deal with that. And often there is resentment that comes as a result of that. And now you've got a woman who's earning more, paying for more and getting resented by her partner slash spouse.

• 50:37Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Not fair.

• 50:38Emma Grede?

  Not fair.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  But it is what it is.

• 50:40Emma Grede?

  Really not fair. I want to talk about kids just for a second because of course for many people that are married, you know, they're, they're not just thinking about themselves. They're not just thinking about their own finances. How much does the conversation change when children are involved?

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Very much. And generally what people say is my priority is my children. Then they start talking about how much they're going to get every month. So it's very interesting to me, but maybe they just assume that that's coming first. I think, again, now people are much more aware of what it does to children when the parents don't get along. I think that people also, like when my older son started kindergarten, I think he was the only kid in the class whose parents weren't living together. But by the time we were in fourth grade, there was like maybe 40% of the class. And then as they get older, and I've watched both of my kids go through a school system that went kindergarten through 12th grade. And so I know a lot of the families and I've watched what's happened. And my kids

• 51:36Speaker 01

  have always been the one that the kids go to and said, my parents are getting divorced. What do I do? And my kids are like, no, bro, it's great. You get to have two iPads. You can tell them you did, you didn't eat candy at this one's house, whatever. Here's all, everything, the tricks of the trade that you need to know. And they both still love you and you're still a family and you're still going to do stuff together. And then if the parents on the other end can actually handle that, like, I think it's so sad when people have to have separate birthday parties. Get your shit together and go to the birthday party at your ex's house and put a smile on your face and show up.

• 52:08Emma Grede?

  And so much of that is generational. I mean, I look, it's, it's interesting because I recently had a party in London and I still think about the complexities in my own family of the divorces that happened.

• 52:21Emma Grede?

  Thirty five years ago and go, okay, I've got, you know, this one has to go over here and this one has to go over here because it isn't like that. And so it's actually incredible to see in the culture like how much we've actually moved.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Totally. My parents were best friends. My dad was there when my mom died seven years ago, even though she was married to somebody else for thirty years. I mean, they were very close. There was so much respect. There was so much love. So I was raised knowing that's possible. I would like to think that as a result of the generation of parents we have now that are doing it better, we're going to have kids that are even able to do it better than that. And that doesn't mean that they don't respect marriage or commitment. It just means like when it's done, it's done and we can still figure out a way to be a family.

• 53:04Emma Grede?

  That's really true. I mean, both of your parents were attorneys and I noticed when I was doing my research that your initials are Law, which I died.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  I died too for about forty years. And when I turned forty, I was like, just get over yourself and embrace it. And so now everything's monogrammed.

• 53:18Emma Grede?

  I was just gonna say, I would have everything monogrammed. I think that that's like literally the coolest initials. It also looks very beautiful on a suitcase or a bag.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Very lame for the first forty years of my life.

• 53:27Emma Grede?

  It's actually kind of amazing. Why did you decide to go into the the family business? Was that not an intimidating thing for you?

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Because right when I had graduated from law school and took the bar exam, I was getting divorced from my husband and I needed the money. I thought, ew, I would never want to go work for my dad. And my dad was like, no nepotism in this firm. And I was like, please, I have this credit card I need to pay and I need to buy kibble for Raul the Pitbull. Please let me come work here until I get my bar results. And then I started doing it. And like I said, I really liked it. And because I grew up here and I had friends who's, you know, were friends who went to Beverly Hills High School with me and their parents were in divorce and maybe my dad had represented them or they knew me. And now all of my friends were working, they were being assistants at the agencies. It worked like they, and I was the young person that they sent in when some young, you know, punk rocker was getting married and he needed a prenup and nobody else, no

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Jewish guy in a suit was going to go sit down with this guy. They said, go, show your tattoo, get in there and talk to him. But yeah, and so I built a practice around that and I just never left.

• 54:27Emma Grede?

  What do you wish you could tell anyone before a divorce? Like, what is the, what is the one thing that you just wish people knew and understood implicitly?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Slow your roll. As angry as you might be, this is a business transaction. Do it reasonably. Get out without too much damage, both financial and emotional, and move on. That's what I would say. It is what it is. This is happening and get out of it without as much, with as little damage as you can to your family, to your kids, to each other, to yourself.

• 55:02Emma Grede?

  It's pretty bloody simple advice.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  It's easier said than done, I do know that. But if your divorce lawyer's saying that, the person who actually stands to gain the most out of it not being simple, there must be something there, right?

• 55:14Emma Grede?

  There must indeed be something there. With all of your success and where you are now, just like being quite happy and having children on the slightly older end of things, you have a sixteen year old and then a twenty one year old, what do you still aspire to? What's important to you at this point in your life?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  I entered a period last year where I was like, I want to be happy. And here's what makes me happy, whether it's spending time with friends, being with my kids, being at the beach, traveling with Jason. The firm is doing really well. My practice is going really well. I, I made it. And so now, rather than continuing to strive and climb, I still want to do the best I can at my job, but I really want to enjoy some of the fruits of my labor. And I want to be able to still live and, and experience new adventures while I'm young enough physically able to do it and have the money that I worked so hard to earn and, and be able to like go enjoy things, like the place that I'll be staying in Calgary.

• 56:17Emma Grede?

  I just love that. I hear so few women say, I made it. It's a really lovely thing to hear.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  I mean, the bar is kind of low as a family law attorney.

• 56:27Emma Grede?

  No, no, no, I don't think the bar's low at all. I just, it's very seldom to hear. Yeah, I'm just trying to think who else has ever like just said that, like, I made it.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Well, I think, look, that's part of the battle, being able to see that. And because look, there's a lot of people that say, oh, this is your net worth, you didn't make it, or you didn't win an Oscar, or you never got whatever.

• 56:47Emma Grede?

  For me, we live in a funny fucking town.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  For me, though, that's part of the joy is being able to say, this is where I am right now and I'm, I'm pretty damn good with that. I look good for my age. I'm healthy. I'm a good parent. My kids are doing well. My dear friends, many of whom I've had since I was in grade school, we love each other, we're there for each other. Life is good. I want to be able to enjoy that.

• 57:09Emma Grede?

  How amazing. All right, I'm going to take you to some rapid fire. What's your best dating advice for these times?

• 57:16Speaker 01

  Have sex.

• 57:17Emma Grede?

  I wish we had a whole section on sex. Can I just, I'm just going to go off ski because I just feel like it. How much of divorce is attributed to a lack of success? Like if you would just give.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Success or sex?

• 57:31Emma Grede?

  Lack of sex. Yeah, lack, lack of sex.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  I think that's a symptom, not a disease. I think people don't have sex because they're not communicating or they're not feeling good about themselves or whatever. Or maybe they're having sex with somebody else, they're feeling something that they're not getting. I think that sex is a very important part of your love language and communication. And if you're not having it regularly, and again, for women too, we get to a point where we may not be feeling as sexual, do whatever you need to do to continue feeling that way and getting joy from having sex because it's a huge connection point.

• 58:06Emma Grede?

  The strangest thing two people have ever thought over in a settlement?

• 58:10Speaker 01

  A parrot.

• 58:11Emma Grede?

  Oh, fucking hell.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  It was bad.

• 58:16Emma Grede?

  That's with some parrot.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  It wasn't. It was a shitty parrot too. Really was.

• 58:22Emma Grede?

  They just were stuck on it.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:23Emma Grede?

  Bless them. What's the first thing? Sorry, I'm now like consumed by the parrot. Like, where did the parrot go? What happens? And what's a book that changed your life?

• 58:33Speaker 01

  There's a book called Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins. I don't know if it changed my life, but I would say it's my favorite book. It's a love story through the ages in different countries and time periods. It has a great deal to do with beats or as you would call them beat roots. It's really good. Jitterbug Perfume.

• 58:51Emma Grede?

  Jitterbug Perfume, no one's ever said that. Laura, thank you so much.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 58:55Emma Grede?

  You're a heaven. I love that. Thank you, my darling.

• 59:02Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Our executive producers are Ashley McShan, Derek Brown and me. Executive producers from Odyssey are Asha Saluja and Leah Reese Dennis. Producer KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Phil Sweetech and Carla Stelgardo. Social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale.

• 59:44Emma Grede?

  Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME, Josefina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meekle, Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Sean Cherry and Lauren Viera. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemmagreed. Grede is spelled G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E with Emma Grede. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.