Clifford Irving: The Howard Hughes Hoax | 191

In the early 1970s, struggling author Clifford Irving tries to escape obscurity by writing a tell-all biography of the famously unreachable Howard Hughes. The catch? Clifford has never spoken to Howard and doesn’t have access to him. He proceeds anyway, betting that Howard’s reclusive nature will keep him from coming forward and debunking the book. But it turns out that even eccentric billionaires have their limits. As Clifford’s scheme unravels, he proves that sometimes fact really is stranger than fiction. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to Scamfluencers on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sarah Hagi?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:13Scaachi Koul?

  Sarah, what do you think you care about more as a creative person? The quality of your work or whether you become notorious for it?

• 0:20Sarah Hagi?

  Wow. You must think I'm a psychopath to ask that question. I think for me, it's definitely the quality. I don't want to be notorious. I don't try to be.

• 0:32Scaachi Koul?

  Well, I'm only in this industry so that people will learn my needlessly complicated name and how to spell it. It's kind of the only reason this podcast even exists.

• 0:41Sarah Hagi?

  I couldn't agree more, Scotchy. Thank you.

• 0:45Scaachi Koul?

  Well, today I have one of our favorite types of scam stories, a nonfiction writer who just couldn't stop making things up. It wasn't that he didn't have talent. He just always seemed to want to work harder at the fiction as opposed to the fact. It's a brisk winter day in early January 1972 in New York City. Journalist Mike Wallace is sitting under bright lights in a fancy Park Avenue townhouse. Mike's been a host for 60 Minutes since it debuted four years ago. He's in his mid-50s and his brown hair is graying at the temples. He's seated in an armchair in a cozy library across from the subject of today's interview, Clifford Irving.

• 1:28Scaachi Koul?

  Clifford is 41 years old, tall with dark eyes, wavy hair, and a rich baritone voice. He's a ladies' man in literary circles, even though up until this point, he's just been a middling novelist and biographer. But now Clifford's name is being splashed across headlines all over the world, thanks to his latest book, A Biography of Howard Hughes. Sarah, what do you know about Howard Hughes?

• 1:55Sarah Hagi?

  Well, I watched The Aviator. So there's that and...

• 1:59Scaachi Koul?

  Right, so you're an expert.

• 2:01Sarah Hagi?

  So I'm an expert and I'm also an expert in the episode of The Simpsons where Mr. Burns is kind of going full Howard Hughes. But he was a total genius who obviously had, you know, mental health issues and, you know, couldn't deal with them. And it's one of those really crazy stories.

• 2:20Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I also, my only frame of preference for Howard Hughes has been The Simpsons for most of my life, so yeah. Mr. Burns in tissue box shoes.

• 2:30Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 2:30Scaachi Koul?

  That's what I remember.

• 2:31Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Scaachi Koul?

  Okay, well, not to tell you what you already know, but Howard Hughes is the billionaire heir to a drilling manufacturing fortune who built his own empire: movie studios, aviation companies, and Las Vegas hotels. For years, he was constantly in the news for flying new planes and dating glamorous actresses. He's kind of like the Elon Musk of the 20th century. But in the late 1940s, Howard started withdrawing from the public eye. At this point, he hasn't been seen in public or given an interview in nearly 15 years. Speculation about where Howard is and what he's doing is always in the papers. Some people even theorize that he's actually dead. But somehow Clifford was able to speak with him. In his interview with Mike, Clifford claims that Howard reached out to him

• 3:17Scaachi Koul?

  after reading one of his earlier books. He says he earned Howard's trust and then flew all over the world to meet with him, face to face, for nearly 100 hours of interviews. Clifford teases that his new biography includes juicy details about Howard's secret life, things so weird they have to be true, like how Howard only drinks prune juice, or how he ranks his friends A, B, C, or D based on cleanliness, and how he wears fake beards and mustaches, like something out of a Bond movie.

• 3:50Sarah Hagi?

  From the distance we have now, we know what is true and what isn't. But it is so juicy imagining like the fake beards and mustaches. I do think this could be true for someone who is like him. You know, it wouldn't be that crazy. I could see how someone would believe it.

• 4:07Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it's possible. But from the minute this book was announced about a month ago, there have been accusations that Clifford is making all of this up. One of Howard's own companies claims the book is fraudulent. That's why Clifford's been all over the newspapers for weeks. So today, Mike asks him. If the book is real, why isn't Howard coming out to defend him?

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Have you tried to be in touch with him since? Have you tried to tell him, Mr. Hughes, come forward and say?

• 4:35Speaker 03

  I've said, Howard, speak up. Get, you know, call off the dogs. I've written him a letter to the only address that I have at the moment that I know is valid, and I've used the correct code words for identification. I don't know why he hasn't surfaced. It puzzles me. It upsets me. It distresses me. He seems unable to respond.

• 4:58Scaachi Koul?

  In the end, Mike believes him. He thinks if Clifford isn't telling the truth, then he's one of the best liars he's ever met. But Mike is wrong. Clifford is lying, and he's very good at it. But the real Howard Hughes is about to break his decades-long silence to set the record straight. When he does, Clifford will be exposed as one of the greatest hoaxsters of the 20th century. And the only people who will want to hear his story will be the authorities.

• 5:31Speaker 04

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• 5:47Speaker 05

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• 6:17Speaker 06

  Hey, what's up, guys? It's Haley Bailey. Okay, I need to tell you about something. I just got YouTube Premium. It's got tons of awesome features like offline downloads, so I can download my favorite videos before I travel and watch them whenever I don't have Wi-Fi. Because we all know airplane Wi-Fi is the worst. I get ad-free, I get background play, and there's like a ton more in there. You should try it. If you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. So try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com/premium. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. That's a mouthful.

• 6:51Scaachi Koul?

  From Wondery, I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Haggy. And this is Scamfluencers.

• 7:04Scaachi Koul?

  As a kid, Clifford Irving dreamed of being the next Ernest Hemingway. But by the age of 40, he had nothing to show for his hard work but a few mediocre novels and a string of failed marriages. He was sick of toiling in obscurity. So he came up with a plan to finally get the recognition he thought he deserved. He'd write a tell-all biography about one of the most famous men on Earth. A man so notoriously reclusive, you could say practically anything about him and he'd never come forward to expose the lie. But it turns out even eccentric billionaires have their limit. And in the end, Clifford Irving's story proves that sometimes fact really is stranger than fiction. This is Clifford Irving: The Howard Hughes Hopes.

• 7:51Scaachi Koul?

  It's fall 1946 on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. Across town, the Brooklyn Dodgers are about to face the St. Louis Cardinals for the chance to play in the World Series. And a teenage Clifford is determined to see the game. He sits in his bedroom, concentrating hard as he grips his pen and writes, "Please excuse my son's absence from school on Thursday. He has a cold. Yours truly, J. Irving." Clifford examines each letter closely. It's pretty close to his dad's handwriting. He grabs his Dodgers cap and heads out the door for a day of playing hooky. Ironically, Clifford's dad, J., is the one who taught him how to forge his handwriting. He's a cartoonist, and Clifford used to help him with his lettering for his comics.

• 8:36Scaachi Koul?

  But today, Clifford is using these skills to see the most exciting game of the year.

• 8:42Sarah Hagi?

  I'm really good at forging signatures. I used to do that all the time in high school. You know, I'm already identifying with this scammer. I skipped so much school.

• 8:52Scaachi Koul?

  I'm still afraid of my mom, so I'm too scared to admit to any of that. So I never did it, that's for sure. Well, Clifford isn't in the habit of skipping school. He usually likes being there. He's popular, he's a ladies' man, and he's studying the thing he loves most in life: art. Someday, he hopes to be famous for his work, just like his dad. And Jay has high hopes for his only child. He wants Clifford to win the fame and respect he could never achieve himself. Sarah, can you read what Clifford later said about his dad's expectations?

• 9:25Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, he says, "He was always pushing me to go to Hollywood." He had this image of me, I think, sitting beside a swimming pool under the palm trees, directing or producing movies. You know, I don't doubt his father had these dreams for him. But to me, the way he's saying this kind of shows what is most important to him. What is most important to Clifford, I should say, where the image he sees his dad having for him is sitting beside a swimming pool under palm trees. It's not about like, "Man, I see my son making the best movies ever made," or anything like that. It is a little telling to me, and I doubt that is how his father phrased it.

• 10:03Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it sounds like these are his priorities. Either way, Clifford spends the next decade trying to follow in his father's footsteps. But then, after high school, he enrolls at Cornell University and discovers Ernest Hemingway. He's inspired to switch his focus from art to writing and decides that if he wants to write like Hemingway, he's got to live like Hemingway. After graduation, Clifford sets out to leave his Upper West Side bubble behind. He's ready to journey across the country and live a nomadic life like his idol. But soon, Clifford will discover that the wild highs of Hemingway's life came with painful lows. Lows that Clifford is doomed to repeat.

• 10:49Scaachi Koul?

  About 15 years later, Clifford is in his late 30s and sitting in a café in Ibiza. By this point, he's finished his Hemingway odyssey. After college, he traveled all over the US, working random jobs: a copyboy at The New York Times, a door-to-door salesman in Syracuse, and a lumberjack in Oregon. Then, he finally got to work writing books. Clifford ends up publishing a few novels to mild acclaim, and it's clear he writes what he knows. Sarah, can you read the description of the protagonist of his debut novel?

• 11:20Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, it says, "He carried the burden of being an only child and had no idea of how to lighten the load, except by creating this illusion of success." Um, you know, I'm not a fan of this kind of writing where it's like, obviously, we all draw from our own lives, but I already see kind of a victim complex coming out. You know what I mean?

• 11:42Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it's a little on the nose.

• 11:44Sarah Hagi?

  Not a fan. It's a kind of like, relax. Oh, no, you're an only child. Boo hoo.

• 11:48Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, he's doing the quiet part loud.

• 11:52Scaachi Koul?

  Well, Clifford also has a few marriages under his belt, just like Hemingway. In the late 50s, there was a short and tragic union to a woman who died in a car wreck while eight months pregnant. Next, he married a model-turned-poet and moved to an artist colony in Ibiza. Then, he met and married a German abstract painter named Edith. And, of course, he's got a little something on the side, a Danish singer named Nina Van Pallen. By the time he's sitting in this café in Ibiza, Clifford's made enough money as an author to support himself, Edith, and his kids. They live on this Spanish island in a 300-year-old farmhouse with white walls and red tile floors. They even have a sailboat. But money's never been the issue. It's fame that seems impossible.

• 12:39Scaachi Koul?

  That's why Clifford is here today. Sitting across from him is one of his friends, a small, white-haired man named Elmir Deore. Elmir is a stylish Hungarian who often wears cravats and a monocle, and he's lived quite a life. After the war, he became a big-time art forger across Europe and the US. Matisse, Renoir, Picasso, you name it, he imitated it. Elmir's scheme, working with two art dealers to sell something like $50 million of phony art, has recently been exposed. He only just returned to Ibiza from exile. Elmir's story has everything: fake art, tragic partnerships, and international life on the run, and Clifford smells a bestseller.

• 13:23Scaachi Koul?

  So, he's meeting Elmir for coffee and a proposition. Clifford wants to write his biography. Elmir is in. So Clifford conducts a series of tape-recorded interviews with him and uses them to write the book. And while he's writing about Elmir's life, Clifford starts to admire him. Elmir was so talented, he fooled the entire art world for years. And now, he's living a life of luxury in Ibiza. Unfortunately, Clifford's telling of Elmir's story is less successful. Within a year, the book is published to decent reviews, but it doesn't sell the way he hoped. The next year, in June 1970, Clifford's dad passes away. Clifford is beside himself.

• 14:07Scaachi Koul?

  His dad never got the chance to see him write a bestseller. He's turning 40 soon, and desperation is starting to kick in. Clifford knows how to tell someone else's story, and he's learned that, like art, the truth is subjective. Now, he just needs a subject whose life story is even juicier than Elmir's. And he doesn't have to look far. The headlines are about to hand him one.

• 14:32Scaachi Koul?

  Around the time Clifford is having a midlife crisis, a huge international story is breaking in Las Vegas.

• 14:39Scaachi Koul?

  The night before Thanksgiving, a tall, wiry man walks out of his penthouse at the Desert Inn in Vegas, wearing a fedora. He slips down the fire escape, walking down nine flights of stairs until he reaches the hotel parking lot. A car is waiting there to take him directly to a nearby airport to board his private, lock-key jet. This man is reclusive billionaire Howard Hughes, and he just managed to get out of Las Vegas undetected. Howard was born into wealth. His father invented a rotary bit for oil drilling that made the family rich. By 1924, both of his parents had died, leaving 18-year-old Howard to run the company. He took his father's fortune and set out to multiply it. First, he became a movie producer

• 15:23Scaachi Koul?

  and was behind some of Hollywood's biggest hits of the '30s. Then, he started his own aircraft company and set the record for the fastest flight around the world. In 1946, Howard crashed a prototype plane into a Beverly Hills neighborhood, breaking nearly every bone in his body. He survived, but became addicted to the morphine he was prescribed for the pain. By the late '40s, Howard began to withdraw from public life. Rumors start to spread that he's agoraphobic and germaphobic, but Howard dismisses these claims. By 1966, Howard had been living in total isolation for well over a decade. That's when he decided to move to Las Vegas. He took a private train, was carried by stretcher into a van,

• 16:07Scaachi Koul?

  and taken to the Desert Inn. When his 10-day reservation was up, Howard wasn't ready to leave. So, he bought the hotel. And he didn't stop there. He bought a half dozen other casinos and hotels until he controlled 20% of the rooms on the Vegas Strip. His plan was to buy up gambling businesses and take them out of mob control, making Las Vegas more attractive to tourists and investors. And he achieved all of this from his penthouse suite, which he didn't leave for four years. The only people who see him regularly are his so-called Mormon mafia, a group of handlers, all members of the Church of Latter-day Saints. They don't drink or smoke, but they do keep Howard safe and take care of his every need.

• 16:53Sarah Hagi?

  It is crazy to me that this man, who is so iconic, so famous, has been basically living in isolation for over a decade, to the point where people don't even know what's really going on with him. It's also really remarkable that he needs this level of protection despite being so isolated and no one really knows where he is, but he has this kind of Mormon mafia taking care of him and making sure nothing bad happens. It's kind of nuts.

• 17:19Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, but even the Mormon mafia can't keep out every single threat.

• 17:25Scaachi Koul?

  In 1969, Howard learned that federal investigators were looking into corruption in his Vegas empire. He hired attorneys, auditors, and casino experts to look into whether the man running his Vegas operations had been skimming off the top. And in 1970, he makes the dramatic decision to leave Las Vegas entirely. That's why he's sneaking out in the middle of the night. Hours later, his private jet lands in the Bahamas. Howard is whisked away to the Grand Britannia Hotel, where his private suite takes up the entire ninth floor and has guards posted at the door 24/7. Once safely inside, he makes a call. And within days, Howard's team swarms the Sands Hotel in Vegas

• 18:08Scaachi Koul?

  and fires the employee Howard suspects of stealing from him. If this method of firing seems dramatic and vengeful, that's because it is. The story of Howard's late-night escape and sudden firing quickly become headline news all over the world. Howard has suddenly put himself back in the spotlight, and the journalists covering the story aren't the only ones who see a great opportunity.

• 18:33Scaachi Koul?

  It's December 1970, and Clifford is drinking Cafe Con Leche at a café in Ibiza. Sitting across from him is his friend, writer Richard Susskind. Richard has been described as being, quote, "built like an avalanche with a gargoyle on top." He's an American too, and the two of them have been close for over a decade. Richard originally wanted to be a singer and even studied at Juilliard, but these days, he's settled into life in Spain as a nonfiction writer. Right now, he's working on a book about Richard the Lionhearted. As they talk, Richard asks Clifford about his life, and specifically about the Danish problem, meaning Clifford's affair with Baroness Nina. But Clifford waves it off.

• 19:17Scaachi Koul?

  He's got something else on his mind today. Clifford tells Richard that he's just read an article titled "The Case of the Invisible Billionaire", all about Howard Hughes and his hermit ways. Clifford is fascinated. Here's another story, like Elmir's, that's stranger than fiction. But Howard is much, much more famous than Elmir. That gave Clifford an idea. What if he wrote the definitive biography of Howard Hughes? It's never been done, since no one can get close enough to the man to get an interview. But this also means, no one can get close enough to get a rejection from him either.

• 19:53Sarah Hagi?

  This is really, really bold. It's an incredible journalistic tactic. There is no yes, but there is no no. And it's pretty crazy to be like, I'm gonna get Howard Hughes. I'm gonna be the guy to do it.

• 20:04Scaachi Koul?

  It's honestly pretty bold. And he seems to think this should all be easy enough. He used tape-recorded interviews to write Elmir's biography, so he'll just do the same thing with Howard. It doesn't matter if he can't actually get access to Howard. He'll just take a page from Elmir's lifestyle and fake the interviews. His publisher, McGraw-Hill, would jump at the chance for something like this. Clifford thinks this is the thing that could finally catapult him to fame. His previous writings about D-list celebrities like Elmir didn't grab the public's attention, so it's time to go right to the top, to one of the most famous and mysterious men on earth. Clifford lays out his proposition for Richard. Join him as a researcher for this new project.

• 20:48Scaachi Koul?

  If Richard joins him in traveling across the world, digging into archival documents and recording fake interviews, Clifford will cut him in on the profits. With one handshake, the plan is set. Clifford is convinced he's about to write his very first bestseller, even if it means telling the biggest lie of his life.

• 21:10Speaker 07

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us.

• 21:55Speaker 07

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• 22:10Speaker 08

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• 23:17Scaachi Koul?

  Two months later, in February 1971, Clifford is sitting in the corner office at McGraw-Hill in New York City. He grips his briefcase tight. It's filled with letters from Howard Hughes. Well, forged letters from Howard Hughes. Clifford has spent the last month in his studio, writing and rewriting these letters. The article he'd read included an excerpt of a real letter from Howard, so Clifford spent weeks studying Howard's handwriting and learning to copy it. Within a month, he'd forged an entire correspondence. In this fake correspondence, Howard thanks Clifford for sending him a copy of his biography about El Mir. He claims to have known Clifford's father and sends condolences about his death. Then, after Clifford suggests that they work together to write about Howard's life,

• 24:01Scaachi Koul?

  Howard asks what this would entail. Clifford's forged letters make it look like Howard is tentatively interested in moving ahead with the project. And McGraw-Hill eats it up. Howard's dramatic exit from Las Vegas was all anyone could talk about for months. And now, one of their writers can get them an exclusive biography with participation from the man himself? They tell Clifford to try to meet with Howard, wherever he may be. Clifford has his publisher in the palm of his hand. They're desperate to get their hands on a sure-fire bestseller.

• 24:35Scaachi Koul?

  Days later, Clifford returns to the McGraw-Hill offices. He tells them that he's been in Oaxaca, Mexico, where Howard arranged to meet. He says one of Howard's associates arrived at dawn and drove him to a set of ancient ruins on top of a mountain. There, sitting in a Volkswagen in a parking lot, was Howard Hughes. Well, that's what Clifford claims happened. He really did fly to Oaxaca. But instead of meeting a reclusive billionaire on top of a mountain, Clifford was in bed with Nina, who came along on the trip. But the publisher is convinced and they draw up a contract. Clifford claims that Howard agreed to the book project, but stressed absolute secrecy. He's insisting on a catch-22 clause. McGraw-Hill is not allowed to contact Howard Hughes.

• 25:20Scaachi Koul?

  Only Clifford can. He tells the publishers that Howard will bolt at the first sign of a leak. Any and all communications with Howard must come through him directly. The publisher agrees, and after forging Howard's signature on the contract, Clifford has a book deal. He's all in on faking the Howard Hughes book, and there's no turning back.

• 25:43Sarah Hagi?

  I actually do understand how they were able to let this fly. Like, if this is such a crazy exclusive and such a delicate subject, and they forged a type of trust with Clifford, at this time, it probably seemed like a risk worth taking. It probably didn't even seem like a risk. It probably seemed like just an unorthodox way of working.

• 26:03Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, Howard has created such a weird environment around him that it feels like maybe anything is possible here. Yeah. So Clifford and Richard get right to work. They spend a week digging through the New York Public Library for previous accounts of Howard's life. Clifford goes to Washington DC to study Howard's aviation years, including going to the Pentagon to get information about some of Howard's company's defense contracts, and the Library of Congress to read thousands of pages of Howard's testimony before the Senate. Then Clifford jets off to Nassau to meet with a local reporter who's been covering Howard's arrival in the Bahamas. Meanwhile, Richard digs through newspaper archives in Las Vegas and Houston. They gathered reams of research on Howard's life, but it's all in the public record.

• 26:49Scaachi Koul?

  What Clifford really wants are some true stories about Howard that no one else knows. But unfortunately, Howard runs a tight ship, and none of his employees ever blab details about him. In June, they head to Palm Springs for another supposed interview with Howard. While there, they run into an old friend, Stanley Meyer. Stanley is a Hollywood agent and producer for Dragnet. He says that a client of his is also working on a biography of Howard Hughes, and this guy actually worked for Howard for decades. But progress on his client's book has stalled, and he's looking for a new ghostwriter. Would they be interested? Clifford is torn. He and Richard are so far down the path of writing their fake biography, it makes no sense to work with Stanley's client.

• 27:33Scaachi Koul?

  But he desperately wants to read the manuscript. All those real, actual details of Howard's private life, it's just what Clifford and Richard have been praying for. Stanley must see that Clifford is weighing his options, so he makes an offer to help sweeten the deal. What if Clifford reads the manuscript first and then comes back with a decision? Clifford feels like he just won the lottery. He and Richard drive to the nearest copy shop and Xerox the entire thing. They get all the juicy details, and they don't have to share any of the glory. The next day, they return the original to Stanley and politely decline his offer.

• 28:10Sarah Hagi?

  Oh my god.

• 28:12Scaachi Koul?

  I mean, it's like, so evil.

• 28:14Sarah Hagi?

  It is really evil, and, I mean, he really did just win the lottery.

• 28:20Scaachi Koul?

  Scam lottery, for sure. Like, it just fell into his hands. Well, the two return to Ibiza and start conducting fake interviews. To do this, Clifford plugs two microphones into a tape recorder. Then they take turns, with one asking questions and the other doing his best Howard impression. They've spent countless hours researching Howard's life, but in these interviews, they're going for personal details and color. So, they spin tales about how Howard developed germophobia, how actor Ramon Navarro tried to pick him up in Mary Pickford's bathroom during a Hollywood party, how he visited India in his 50s, how he once got lost at sea off the coast of California with Errol Flynn and Anne Sheridan, and how he befriended Ernest Hemingway.

• 29:05Scaachi Koul?

  It's like the most bizarre improv exercise you've ever seen.

• 29:09Sarah Hagi?

  You know, this kind of sounds like it would have been really fun. I know it's wrong.

• 29:15Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 29:15Sarah Hagi?

  And it's absolutely crazy, but imagine how much fun we'd have doing this.

• 29:20Scaachi Koul?

  No, it's like a great writing exercise if only they were doing it legitimately.

• 29:23Sarah Hagi?

  It's so fun.

• 29:25Scaachi Koul?

  Well, then, the two of them use these phony details to pad their manuscript. Clifford and Richard have everything they need to turn out a riveting, halfway true biography of a great American tycoon. But now Clifford has to tackle another problem. Under his book deal, McGraw-Hill will pay him a $100,000 advance and award him all the royalties, while Howard will get a check for $650,000. Clifford needs a plan to get his hands on Howard's portion of the money, and that will take this scheme from improv to full-on theater.

• 30:00Scaachi Koul?

  A few months later, in October 1971, Clifford's wife, Edith, is in Zurich. She's standing at a teller window inside the Swiss credit bank. Only, she doesn't look like herself. Her blonde hair is stuffed underneath a black wig, and she's wearing heavy makeup and glasses to appear older. Because today, she's not Edith Irving, she's Helga Renata Hughes, and she has a quarter million dollar check to deposit. Back in January, before Clifford even spoke to McGraw-Hill, he asked Edith for help. He needed to establish a fake bank account in Switzerland, a place known for its emphasis on client privacy. McGraw-Hill would be sending payments to H.R. Hughes, AKA Howard Robard Hughes.

• 30:45Scaachi Koul?

  So if Clifford wants to take Howard's share, then he needs to have a bank account in the name H.R. Hughes, ready to go. His grand idea was to have Edith pose as a made-up woman with the same initials, Helga Renata Hughes. And Edith needed very little convincing. Clifford isn't committing some terrible act or stealing from the poor, he's just writing a book. Plus, she'd get to travel to Zurich and wear a disguise. It all sounds kind of fun.

• 31:14Sarah Hagi?

  This isn't the first time we've seen this type of behavior on this show of someone getting dressed up to deposit a check or cash a check or whatever. But again, these people are having so much fun with it. Like, you can just tell they're living for this element of their scam, which is the disguises, the duping, like, all that kind of stuff. It's kind of fun.

• 31:38Scaachi Koul?

  I know. Everybody is Inspector Gadget in this story.

• 31:40Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, it's like, I get to wear a wig.

• 31:43Scaachi Koul?

  Well, listen, this move might have also been out of desperation because their marriage is on the rocks. Edith knows all about Clifford's mistress, Nina, and they fight about it constantly. So Edith might see this as an opportunity to connect with her husband again. She made her first trip to Zurich back in the spring and used a doctored passport to open an account with Swiss Credit Bank. Then, across the street, she opened another account with the Swiss Bank Corporation under the name Hannah Rosenkranz. When Edith and her ex-husband got divorced, he married a woman named Hannah Rosenkranz. And before leaving Germany, Edith stole one of Hannah's old IDs. And now, it is definitely coming in handy. With two accounts at banks across the street from each other,

• 32:27Scaachi Koul?

  her and Clifford's system is ready to go. Their plan is simple. Deposit the check for H.R. Hughes at Swiss Credit Bank. Let the check clear, withdraw the money, walk it across the street to Swiss Bank Corporation, deposit it under the name Hannah Rosenkranz, wire it home. On her first visit to Switzerland, Edith was a ball of nerves. What if they noticed her passport was fake? Or what if her wig came loose? But now, she's much more confident. The tellers smile and deposit her money without flinching. With the money safely piling up in a Swiss bank account, all Clifford has to do now is write. But news of the biography has started spreading all over the world, even to the Bahamas.

• 33:13Scaachi Koul?

  Two months later, it's December 1971, and Frank McCullough, the New York bureau chief for Time Life, is fielding frantic phone calls. Frank is an old-school newsman. He has the demeanor of a bulldog, and he looks like one, too. He's in his early 50s, with a shaved head and mean eyes. And today, he's dealing with the fallout from McGraw-Hill's announcement that they will be publishing a biography of billionaire recluse Howard Hughes. They'll also be publishing portions of the manuscript in Life magazine. It should be a thrilling moment. But everyone at Time Life is freaking out because immediately after the book was announced, representatives from one of Howard's companies publicly called it a hoax.

• 33:57Scaachi Koul?

  The accusations hit particularly hard for Frank because if anyone knows Howard Hughes, it's him. He covered Howard for years, and he's actually the last journalist to speak directly with him.

• 34:11Scaachi Koul?

  Back in 1958, Frank went to L.A. and followed Howard's strange, specific instructions: drive to Olympic in Sepulveda, park at the southwest corner, blink his headlights twice. And to Frank's surprise, a car picked him up and led him to a private jet piloted by Howard. They spent an entire evening flying around and talking. But even though Frank is the last journalist to meet with Howard in person, and he's the New York bureau chief for Time Life, no one told him about the biography. Secrecy around the Howard Hughes project was so intense, only a few people knew about it.

• 34:48Sarah Hagi?

  I feel like someone in Frank's position does have every right to be kind of like, what the hell is this? Because he does actually know Howard Hughes. He covered him for years. Like, he was the last person who interviewed him. I could also see people not wanting to tell him about the book just because, you know, like, maybe he would be bitter about not getting the exclusive.

• 35:09Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and trying to avoid pissing Frank off has probably the opposite effect. Frank is blindsided not only by the existence of the book, but also the PR shitstorm it's kicking up. Now, Frank's familiarity with Howard is more critical than ever. A week after the book announcement, Frank welcomes Howard's lawyer into the Time Life Conference Room. Howard's lawyer dials long distance and hands the receiver to Frank. A flat, nasally voice speaks on the other end. It sounds like Howard Hughes. Frank listens intently. The voice on the other end is angry and clear. He says he never agreed to write a biography with anyone, much less Clifford Irving, a guy he says he never met or even heard of.

• 35:54Scaachi Koul?

  Howard says he knows that there have been checks made out to him, but he hasn't seen any, much less cashed them. He's pissed. And then the call abruptly ends. And Sarah, the person on the phone really is Howard Hughes. Frank recognizes his voice, but doesn't have a way to verify definitively. But Clifford has letters from Howard endorsing the project. So Frank asks to read the manuscript. He only gets through half of it, but it's enough for him to be convinced. Clifford's work is legit. So Frank develops a theory. Howard may have met with Clifford, but kept the biography a secret from his top executives. That wouldn't be out of character for Howard, who is incredibly secretive and impulsive.

• 36:38Scaachi Koul?

  And then, once the book was announced, Howard's top lieutenants panicked and convinced him nothing good would come of the project, so he should just deny it.

• 36:47Sarah Hagi?

  You know, a lot of this is a bit confusing because in my mind, I feel like it'd be so easy for Howard's people to just be like, this isn't happening. No one ever talked to him. There's no book. But I guess it just speaks to how unpredictable Howard's behavior is at this point in his life, where there's no real way to confirm it. If all evidence shows that it's very possible, like, who can really deny it, you know?

• 37:14Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it seems like so strange that it couldn't possibly be anything but the truth. And Frank is an old-school, hard-boiled journalist. But he doesn't know that his cynical worldview is clashing with Clifford's fantastical relationship with the truth. He's putting his trust in Clifford, and soon, he'll come to regret it.

• 37:36Scaachi Koul?

  It's January 10th, 1972. Clifford is sitting in his lawyer's living room in Connecticut, watching 60 Minutes. The news program is covering an extraordinary press conference happening in Los Angeles. Howard Hughes is speaking publicly for the first time in more than a decade. And I do mean speaking. Seven reporters are gathered around a semicircular table on the ground floor of a hotel in Burbank. These reporters have been hand-selected to participate. All of them have met Howard in the past. And they're gathered today to ask questions to a speakerphone. Because Howard is still too sick, or scared, or stubborn to be seen anywhere in public.

• 38:18Scaachi Koul?

  The reporters have all prepared special questions meant to prove that the voice on the phone is the real Howard. But Sarah, Howard bungles more than half the answers. However, he does go on to talk about airplanes and Howard Company lawsuits in such painful detail that the journalists all agree, this really is Howard Hughes. The news report only shows a portion of the two-and-a-half-hour interview, but Clifford's heart must be racing when Howard speaks out about his forthcoming biography.

• 38:48Speaker 09

  Do you know a man named Irving? And did you ever help him or anyone else with your autobiography?

• 38:53Speaker 10

  I'm not talking about the biography itself, because I've never read it, I don't know what's in it. But, I mean, this episode is just so fantastic that it taxes your imagination to believe that a thing like this could happen. I know him, I never saw him, I never even heard of him until a matter of days ago, when this thing first came to my attention.

• 39:17Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I don't know how much more clear it could be that he has never heard about Clifford. But also, he just sounds so not okay that I could see this being manipulated somehow.

• 39:31Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, exactly. A voice without a face still leaves plenty of doubt. And the day after the interview airs on national television, Clifford meets with a couple of journalists and says that the voice on the phone was an impostor. He shows off the truly staggering amount of forged documents he's created in the last year: handwritten letters to Clifford and to the president of McGraw-Hill, signatures on the checks the publisher made out to Howard, and edits to a physical copy of the manuscript, hundreds of comments written in pencil in the margins. He goes on 60 Minutes. He even takes a polygraph test, which is inconclusive. Clifford feels like his integrity is at stake, which is a crazy thought to have when you're actively lying.

• 40:14Scaachi Koul?

  But he's so confident in his assertions that the book is real, and Howard has cultivated such an air of eccentricity that tons of people buy his story.

• 40:24Sarah Hagi?

  It's so manipulative because he's dealing with Howard Hughes, who everyone believes is totally nuts. And, you know, he's really taking advantage of that situation. But also, he is so indignant. He is lying. He is lying.

• 40:42Scaachi Koul?

  Well, if there's one thing we've learned doing this show, it's that no one is more indignant than a liar. Howard's reps file an injunction to block the publication of the book, and Clifford has to sign a sworn affidavit. And that is when the panic really sets in. He needs a scapegoat, ideally someone who doesn't exist. So he invents a middleman. Clifford says the last time he met with Howard, a mysterious man named George Gordon Holmes was their go-between. If anyone doubts his story, they should contact George. He's the one who arranged the interviews. Clifford is pretty pleased with himself. He's sent investigators on a trail that leads nowhere. On top of that, his letters pass handwriting analysis.

• 41:24Scaachi Koul?

  His lawyer believes him, and he's even convinced Frank. But Clifford's about to learn that once the legal system gets involved, lying has another name: perjury. And he'll have to face consequences far greater than any ruined book deal.

• 41:46Speaker 11

  Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, this trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts,

• 42:31Speaker 11

  and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 42:45Speaker 12

  Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 43:38Scaachi Koul?

  Four days after Clifford swore in an affidavit that he'd traveled the world meeting with Howard Hughes, Frank is sitting in the fancy Park Avenue home of Clifford's lawyer, waiting to talk to Clifford. And he's not alone. Frank has started working with another life journalist, Bill Lambert. Bill has a Pulitzer Prize and a reputation as a tireless investigative reporter. Frank wants Bill by his side because he's starting to think Clifford might be full of shit. Clifford wasn't the only one who turned in an affidavit swearing his book was real. Frank himself signed a legally binding document saying he was convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. Then, the very next day, a McGraw-Hill investigator in Zurich turned up a huge discovery.

• 44:21Scaachi Koul?

  The person cashing checks as H.R. Hughes was a woman. Clifford claimed Howard must have used a trusted associate to open the account and deal with deposits. But this whole situation is starting to smell funny. Now Clifford's packing his bags for Ibiza, but Frank wants to talk with him before he goes. He and Bill grill Clifford on his story from beginning to end. And then Clifford takes off for the airport, and Frank and Bill get to work. Bill flies to Miami to verify one of Clifford's meetings with Howard. He confirms that Clifford did rent a car and stay in a hotel in Miami, but the timestamps don't add up. It seems like at the time Clifford claims he was driving out to another mysterious meeting with Howard,

• 45:06Scaachi Koul?

  he was actually lounging by the pool. When Bill calls with his damning discovery, Frank literally stops the presses on the latest issue of Life, which has the Clifford and Howard collab as its cover story.

• 45:19Scaachi Koul?

  Three days later, Clifford finally returns from Ibiza. He's swarmed by hundreds of reporters at the airport and holes up in his lawyer's house on Park Avenue. At this point, state and federal grand juries have been convened to look into Clifford's case as fraud. Even the U.S. Postal Service has opened an investigation. The Hughes lawyers are asking the State Supreme Court for a hearing. Howard's Mormon mafia can testify that Howard never met Clifford because they were with Howard the whole time. Frank goes to the house and demands to see Clifford. Frank is pretty sure he's discovered the identity of the middleman who Clifford claims arranged his meetings with Howard. He suspects it's a former aide to Howard named John Meyer.

• 46:02Scaachi Koul?

  So when Clifford refuses to see him, Frank passes along a message. He says, "Just tell Cliff we know all about Meyer."

• 46:12Scaachi Koul?

  But Sarah, Frank is off-base here. John Meyer isn't the middleman, because the middleman doesn't actually exist. Clifford made him up. But when Clifford hears the name Meyer, he assumes Frank is talking about Stanley Meyer, the Hollywood producer who handed Clifford and Richard the manuscript written by his client, someone who really did work with Howard. The details stolen from that manuscript are what convinced McGraw-Hill and Time Life that Clifford's book was genuine. And now Clifford assumes Frank has discovered it. He thinks the jig is finally up.

• 46:49Sarah Hagi?

  Oh my god, this is such a significant miscommunication that is helping unravel this in a way I really didn't expect.

• 46:57Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it's like, clue!

• 47:00Scaachi Koul?

  Well, when Frank is finally brought in to see Clifford, he encounters a changed man. Clifford's voice is gone, his skin is so white that it's practically gray, and he has bags under his eyes from exhaustion. Defeated, Clifford mutters a confession. He tells Frank that the woman cashing checks as HR Hughes is his wife, Edith. This moment changes everything. Clifford later makes the same confession to state and federal investigators. Then, on a tip from post office investigators, Frank finds Nina in Europe and gets her on the phone. When he asks if she'd gone on vacation with Clifford in Oaxaca, Nina confirms that she had. And she says there's no way Clifford met with Howard Hughes while they were there,

• 47:43Scaachi Koul?

  because they were in bed together going at it ferociously the entire time. And yes, she is willing to testify. Frank rushes back to the office and tells them about the developing scandal. The plan to put Edith on the next cover of Life is scrapped. They go with Nina instead. Sarah, here it is.

• 48:03Sarah Hagi?

  I will say, this is a gorgeous cover. It's kind of like headshot style of Nina. Wind flowing through her hair. Bare face, probably not wearing a shirt, but you can see like, you know, shoulders up. And it is amazing to me that she sold him out for this opportunity. She was like, you know what? I'm gonna get mine.

• 48:21Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, good for her, obviously.

• 48:25Scaachi Koul?

  Well, Frank may not have gotten Howard to give him exclusive access for a tell-all biography, but he has gotten something arguably better. The chance to take down the liar who claimed to be Howard's most trusted friend.

• 48:41Scaachi Koul?

  It's February 1972. Clifford grips Edith's hand tightly as they weave through a crowd of reporters. They walk through the courthouse doors and are brought to a cafeteria to wait to be called before a grand jury. Clifford is called in first. He follows his attorney's orders and pleads the fifth. When it's Edith's turn, Clifford drinks coffee and has some cake. He asks some reporters sitting nearby for a clean sheet of paper. One of them hands him a sheet and jokes, "Watch your handwriting."

• 49:13Scaachi Koul?

  Clifford's ruse has fallen apart spectacularly. In addition to multiple investigations in the US, Swiss authorities want to extradite Edith and charge her with fraud. The day after Clifford pleads the fifth, The New York Times publishes excerpts of the biography, and it catches the eye of the ghostwriter who worked on the manuscript Clifford stole all the details from. There's no doubt in his mind that Clifford stole their work. And finally, Life Magazine and McGraw-Hill officially cancel the biography. A few weeks later, Time publishes a new cover story. It's a painting of Clifford done by his old friend, El Mir, and stamped on the front is a banner reading, "Con Man of the Year."

• 49:56Sarah Hagi?

  That is like from The Simpsons or something. Like it's spinning around in a cartoon as a part of a montage.

• 50:04Scaachi Koul?

  Well, by the time March rolls around, Clifford knows that he's sunk. But he and Edith worry about what will happen to their kids if they both go to jail. So their strategy becomes tell the whole truth and hope for the best. They start off at the US Attorney's Office where Clifford and Richard tell the entire story over several meetings. And then they do it all over again for the federal and state grand juries. After pleading guilty, Richard gets six months in prison while Clifford is sentenced to two and a half years. Edith is sentenced to two years, but only ends up serving two months. She's then extradited to Zurich where she serves 16 more months. But even after they finish out their punishments, it's anyone's guess what Clifford will do next.

• 50:48Scaachi Koul?

  Because unlike his most famous subject, Clifford has no plans to disappear.

• 50:56Scaachi Koul?

  Howard Hughes lived out the rest of his life in seclusion and sickness. While he was alive, he managed to keep a lot of his issues from becoming public. But now we know he suffered from severe OCD. Near the end of his life, he refused to eat and bathe regularly due to his compulsions. He died of kidney failure in 1976. Meanwhile, Clifford decided to milk his time in the spotlight for all it was worth. In the months between his indictment and his jail time, he and Richard teamed up to write a new book. They told their version of the story and called it Clifford Irving: What Really Happened? It was later reissued under a new title, The Hoax. After serving a year and a half in prison, Clifford was freed on parole, but he still

• 51:39Scaachi Koul?

  owed about a million dollars in fines and damages. When the New York Times asked how he'll pay the money back, he replied, "Very slowly."

• 51:50Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 51:52Sarah Hagi?

  What did they expect him to do?

• 51:54Scaachi Koul?

  I mean, at least he was honest for once.

• 51:56Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, very slowly, maybe not at all.

• 52:00Scaachi Koul?

  Well, Clifford and Edith divorced soon after serving their time. He spent the rest of his years writing and releasing true crime books and married his final wife in 1998. In December 2017, Clifford passed away from pancreatic cancer, but his story continues to captivate. It's the subject of a 1973 Orson Welles film entitled "F is for Fake," as well as a 2006 Richard Gere movie titled "The Hoax." And his phony autobiography of Hughes did end up seeing the light of day. It was published as an ebook in 2012. Ultimately, Clifford got what he was looking for. Everyone in literary society knew his name, and he really did tell one hell of a story.

• 52:47Scaachi Koul?

  Sarah, every so often, we get like a scam artist who's a writer, and it's always like, wow, they did so much more work to write the same thing that they could have done with way less work. Like, inventing sources and creating letters out of whole cloth is way more work than just like writing one knock-knock joke book.

• 53:06Sarah Hagi?

  It is always so interesting to see what the motivations for someone like him are, where he obviously wanted to be famous, he wanted to have exclusive insight into someone and be the person to do something nobody else could do, but he just went about it in honestly, one of the most roundabout ways we've ever covered. You know, it's one thing to fake correspondence with someone who's dead, but to do that with someone who is alive and one of the most famous people on earth, regardless of how reclusive he was at that point in his life, is so bold. It is so crazy to get away with, and a part of me wonders if he took into account the notoriety he would have if found out.

• 53:50Sarah Hagi?

  He was famous until the end of his life for this, right?

• 53:52Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, this is someone who really just wanted people to know who he was and didn't care whether or not it was legitimate, which is interesting, because if it doesn't really matter to you if it's true or not, then you don't need to be a nonfiction writer.

• 54:05Sarah Hagi?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 54:06Scaachi Koul?

  It wasn't even like he was trying to preserve anything. Clifford is so different from like a Stephen Glass, who we have covered on the show, because Stephen like really clung to his lies up until the end. And he really, you know, even still, seems to be kind of locked in his delusion a bit. It was important that he be known as somebody who was like telling the truth in a really powerful way. I don't think Clifford ever gave a shit about that. He just wanted people to know him.

• 54:31Sarah Hagi?

  No, for real. I mean, this was also a time where, I guess, fictionalized accounts of real people maybe wasn't a huge thing. Like, this guy essentially was doing extreme fanfiction. He went so far with it, and there was kind of a level of joy and fun here. You kind of have to be like, sure, he got caught. He had to pay money back. He had to go to jail for a little bit. But he did kind of win in the end because, one, we're talking about it today. And, two, he did fool people enough for a long enough time. Like, he did.

• 55:04Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 55:05Sarah Hagi?

  And again, about someone who is alive. If he waited until Howard Hughes was dead, you know, perhaps it could have worked out.

• 55:13Scaachi Koul?

  Yes. And it's also like, he probably would have gotten away with all of it if Howard just hadn't have made a few phone calls.

• 55:21Sarah Hagi?

  I don't even really, really understand how he thought this was gonna be normal forever. Like, he would find a way to get out of it, you know?

• 55:28Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, this is a guy who clearly knew how to get himself out of a number of jams and thought he could get himself out of this one, too. And you know what? Maybe he did because he got remarried and died a free man.

• 55:40Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, that is true. This is one of those people where I'm like, there's no other way he could have been where he is without scamming. It's just essential to his character. He didn't hurt that many people. Howard Hughes was dealing with his own shit. Like, this was nothing. In the grand scheme of Howard Hughes's life, especially in those final years, I think this was a blip.

• 56:00Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I bet Howard was like, when he first heard about it, like, why am I in this? In the immortal words of 50 Cent, "Why'd he say fuck me for?" I think that's exactly what Howard Hughes thought, with his tissue box shoes and his roiling agita.

• 56:14Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I don't think this is even something that Howard Hughes registered as like, being in his life. He was like, I never heard about this guy. Can we move on?

• 56:23Scaachi Koul?

  Seemed annoyed, but it's nothing compared to the voices.

• 56:26Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. Ultimately, fun scam. Really a fun scam for me.

• 56:29Scaachi Koul?

  Pretty good, yeah.

• 56:30Sarah Hagi?

  Good scam.

• 56:30Scaachi Koul?

  You know what? If you gotta rip somebody off, Howard Hughes is a great place to start. I'm not actually that mad at it.

• 56:35Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 56:41Scaachi Koul?

  Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.

• 56:50Scaachi Koul?

  This is Clifford Irving, The Howard Hughes Hoax. I'm Sachi Cole.

• 56:55Sarah Hagi?

  And I'm Sarah Haggy. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected]. A few that were particularly helpful were "Hoax: The Inside Story of the Howard Hughes-Clifford Irving Affair" by Stephen Fay, Lewis Chester, and Magnus Linklater; "The Hoax" by Clifford Irving; and "Crime: The Fabulous Hoax of Clifford Irving" from Time Magazine.

• 57:20Scaachi Koul?

  Madeline Cook wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Haggy. Olivia Bryle is our story editor. Fact checking by Gabrielle Drolle. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Freeze on Sync. Our managing producer is Desi Blalow. Janine Cornolo and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our senior producers are Sarah Enni and Ginny Bloom. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer-Beckman and Marshall Louie. For Wondery.

• 58:01Speaker 13

  Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you. His coldness sends a shiver up your spine. Your heart aches. Your ears burn. You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you.