215: You'll Never Be Free Unless You Tell Yourself The Truth. Taking Control Of Your Destiny At Work. Brown-nosing Team Members. Passed Over For Promotion.

0:00:00 - Opening: Sun Tzu 0:02:37 - What to do if a team mate is brown-nosing and putting in extra work to get a promotion. 0:31:43 - What to do when you get passed over for a promotion. 1:02:07 - What to do when you think you're in a rut, or in a loop of failure. 1:10:23 - Know the difference. "Yes" Man VS Willing to smash all tasks., big or small. 1:13:43 - How to take control of your destiny at work. 1:17:51 - Are you happy where you are, REALLY? 1:23:46 - How to stay on THE PATH. 1:51:39 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 215 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  Got a little quote to kick things off today. "The general who does not advance to seek glory, or does not withdraw to avoid punishment, but cares for only the people's security and promotes the people's interest is the nation's treasure." That's a little Sun Tzu coming at you. And of course, we covered Sun Tzu on Podcast number 23. And you can, it's just always interesting how you can find the same themes throughout time from a leadership perspective. I know I talk about this, this point a lot in Leadership Strategy and Tactics book.

• 0:56Jocko Willink?

  This statement right here, this is 2,500 years old. And he's saying the same thing that I say in Leadership Strategy and Tactics, that many of the problems that come about for a leader are from their ego. And so we have to learn to keep our ego in check. Now, this is, you know, we talk about it in Extreme Ownership, the very first book. This isn't like, hey, I just thought of this yesterday. And it's not like I just thought of this anyways. Like I said, somebody was jumping on, uh, somebody was, was making some comments

• 1:34Jocko Willink?

  on, on social media platform that it said, he's acting like, like me, I'm acting like I invented Cover and Move. You know, you know, of course I said, hey, no, it's actually, I say all the time, I didn't invent this or much of anything.

• 1:52Jocko Willink?

  So I didn't invent this idea of ego. I didn't just think of it, whatever. But it is a theme that we see over and over again from people that pay attention. Not just from a leadership perspective either. I mean, we're talking life problems. So this was interesting. So we just wrapped up the Jaco live tour. It was awesome. Thanks for when it came. I got some really good questions along the way. And a lot of times the questions, sometimes the questions are about ego, even though the person doesn't even know that the question's about ego. But when you start to dig in, you start to realize that it's about ego. But the, so this first question is one of those questions.

• 2:36Jocko Willink?

  And the question was something along the lines of this. It was something like, what should I do if a peer of mine is working hard, putting in extra effort and trying to shine so that they get promoted?

• 2:53Jocko Willink?

  That was the question. And that's a good question, right? Cause right? What do you do? And, and the instinct is like, you know what I'm saying? You, you can even feel that instinct. I could see the look on your face right now.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:05Jocko Willink?

  You have the look on your face of like, you can see that that's a little bit offensive, right? When you go, oh, this person's trying to work hard, trying to put that extra effort in. Trying to shine so that they can get promoted.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:19Jocko Willink?

  Right? No one likes that person, by the way, right? No one likes the, the brown noser.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:24Jocko Willink?

  So we get it. So then the question was, what should this person do? What, you know, that's the guy asked me, what do I do when that's happening? And the instinct, which is the instinct you had, which is the instinct, my first instinct, even me, mister, keep your ego in check. My very first instinct is like a little bit of like a pushback. Like, oh, it's that guy. And I want to lash out at him, right?

• 3:51Jocko Willink?

  But that's not the right answer. You know, because that's what you say is you say, who do they think they are?

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:57Jocko Willink?

  Look at what they're doing. So you know what that is? That's making those attacks? That's your own personal ego. That's my own ego. My own ego going, well, that person just wants to get promoted. So if you can take a second, you can take a step back, you can detach, you can put your ego in check. And if you do that,

• 4:19Jocko Willink?

  then you say to yourself, okay, here's what's, here's the situation. If we remove the ego, here's the situation. This person is working extra hard. By the way, this person's a peer, so we're on the same team. This person is working extra hard. They're putting in extra effort. They are trying to shine.

• 4:37Jocko Willink?

  And all those things, all those things are actually good for your team. Right? I got someone that's trying to do a great job, that's working harder. I'm actually happy. I'm actually happy. If there's a person working harder on my team, that's good. If there's a person that's trying to outwork me and do a better job than me, that's actually awesome. Because now we're going to be a better team. Now, mind you, any moment you let your ego slip into this, it's, it turns into a nightmare. It's not good. You don't like it. You're offended that someone's trying to work harder than you.

• 5:19Jocko Willink?

  But if you keep your ego in check, then that's good. You realize that it's good. And I'll tell you something else. And this is what I, what I answered this question. I said, for this person to outwork me, he's gonna have a hard time.

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  He's gonna have a hard time outworking me because I'm here to win too. And that is a little bit of my ego. But that ego is being a positive thing because I'm, oh, you're going to step up your game. Guess what I'm going to do? Step up my game. I'm not going to undermine you. That would be negative. That would be my ego causing a problem. But if I go, oh, your echo stepping up his game. Echo showing up at, at six o'clock in the morning instead of, instead of six 10. Oh, and I'm, and I'm coming in at 6:05. Guess what? Guess what time I'm coming in tomorrow?

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  No, 4:30.

• 6:07Jocko Willink?

  But you're right. So I do, I just do a little bit more. So now, now we're both a little bit more prepared. Now we got some good competitiveness going on. That's good. It's good for the team. So you, this other person, this other person that's stepping up the game, trying to do a good job is actually awesome.

• 6:27Jocko Willink?

  Because it's gonna make me step up my game. And I'm gonna tell you right now, that person is gonna have a hard time outworking me. They're gonna have a hard time. Bring it. I'm actually fired up. I'm actually getting fired up right now. Like I'm getting, I'm starting like, I'm thinking I might attack you right now just to see what's up.

• 6:45Jocko Willink?

  So that's good. Now here's, here's where the second ego scenario that you have to get under control. What if that person steps up their game, I step up my game, they end up, they actually do end up outshining me. They actually do end up getting the big promotion. Then what do I do? Do I get bitter? Do I get jealous? Do I get mad? Do I now start to undermine them and spread rumors about? No, actually. If somebody, if somebody outworked me and outperformed me, and then got promoted, good for them. That is awesome. Credit.

• 7:29Jocko Willink?

  They get a credit. You done good, son. You done good. And there's nothing wrong with that. And what I am gonna do is instead of being bitter and mad and jealous and all those things, instead I'm actually gonna put my ego out of the picture and say, what actually happened? Where did this person perform better than me? And how I, how can I support them? How can I learn some lessons from this? And how can I become better? So the next time there is an opportunity, I do get promoted.

• 7:57Jocko Willink?

  You wouldn't think that that question is about your own personal ego from the beginning. Now it's easy to see looking back. But from the beginning, it's like, hey, what do you do? How do you handle this situation? When someone's trying to outwork you and outshine you and they're trying to get promoted? That sounds like an interpersonal relationship question. It's not. It's a question about ego.

• 8:17Jocko Willink?

  Which is.

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  Which is something we always need to pay attention to. So, so as I was thinking again, once again, Jaco Live was kind of like, you went to two Jaco Lives, is that correct?

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:31Jocko Willink?

  They weren't really a podcast, they weren't really a Q and A, they weren't, they were just sort of a, they were a little bit of everything, right? A little bit of, a little bit of stories, a little bit of lessons, a little bit of, yeah, a little bit of everything. So, I did get some questions, though. That first one was one of those general questions. And now, as I started thinking about the questions and how a lot of them related to ego, another question that I got, that was actually another important question. The question was, again, something along the lines of, and I'm sure we can go back and, and pull the recording.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:12Jocko Willink?

  But here's the other thing, is some of these questions that I got asked, I got asked like the same similar question. So I'm paraphrasing what this other question was, but this one, the question was, something along the lines of, hey, listen, Jaco, I know that keeping the ego in check is an important principle. I read about it, extreme ownership, you talk about it all the time, got to be humble, but at my company, ego is a huge problem. How do I get my company to start promoting the ideal of humility? And how do I get them to recognize that ego is such a big problem?

• 9:48Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is a really good question, once again, because you can imagine what this individual's right. Like, you know, you're at a company where there's a lot of egos going on, and all of a sudden, you have a little moment of enlightenment, you realize that ego is causing you a lot of problems. So, you start putting your own ego in check. And then you go, wow, this is working. I'm doing better, I'm coordinating better, I'm working, my interpersonal relationships with other people on the team are better, my relationships with people on other teams are better. We're getting more done because our relationships are better. I'm putting the team and the mission above myself. That means the team and the mission are doing better. That's great. So you realize all this stuff. And then, you say, okay, well, how do I start to spread the word? How do I get other people to do this?

• 10:33Jocko Willink?

  And this is a tricky question, right? It's a tricky thing because if some, if like, let's say your team has, you see that ego is a problem and you sit them down and go, listen, guys, you're, you're all, you all got big egos and that's the problem. I mean, you're going to run into level nine defensiveness. You're actually going to, it's actually going to go beyond defensiveness. They're going to start attacking you. That's what's going to happen. You've got all these crazy egos. They're going to gang up. They'll like unite. They'll put their egos aside for a split second so that they can unite against you. So you can't confront them. And, and once again, are there certain relationships that you could have with someone where I go,

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  let's say you and me and you had an ego and but you and I were really tight. And I said, hey, man, you're letting your ego get in the way of this. Sure, that, that is a possibility. That is a very rare occurrence. Most of the people that you work with on a regular basis, you don't have that tight of a relationship. The other thing is when someone has a big ego, that's not the type of person that's open to those kinds of criticisms anyways. So it's like there's two, two hurdles that you have to overcome. Number one, your relationship isn't usually that good. And number two, they have a big ego, which is part of the problem. And that's what makes the problem hard to attack. So what are you going to do? And, and I gotta throw this one more little thing.

• 11:59Jocko Willink?

  When people talk about the, you know, I have someone say, but wouldn't it be better? If you could just talk to them? Wouldn't it be better if you just, you know, put down some bullet sized list and said, hey, here's the things that your ego, here's the problems that your ego's problem causing. Look, I get it. And isn't it great to have direct conversations? Isn't it great if I can just sit you down? If, if Echo, if you and I have this mind meld, where you just know I'm a hundred percent looking out for you and you're open to, like, if we have that, that's in an ideal world, that's great. That's great. Golf clap. It's great. The problem is it doesn't exist very often. And confronting someone that has an ego about their ego

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  can often just exacerbate the problem. So here's what you do. Instead of self identifying the problem and pointing the fingers at other people.

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  Which by the way is placing blame, which is a problem. So instead of doing that, what we're gonna do is start pulling the thread on some of the problems that we're having on the team. So for instance, this group over here needs some help on their part of the project, but no one's helping them. What's going on? If you start to pull the thread on that, you'll find at the end of that thread, they'll be hanging some egos. Whether it's the ego of the person that doesn't want to ask for help, or whether it's the ego of the other person that doesn't want to give help because they think they need to do their own job. That's I'm not, I'm not doing that.

• 13:45Jocko Willink?

  So you pull the thread and at the end you'll find these little egos hanging. And then what you do is you just expose them. And you say, well, what do you think the root of the problem is? And you start pulling that thread and you get to a point where someone says, you can finally have an open conversation where you say, where someone finally says, we know I, I guess I, I guess I could use some help.

• 14:05Jocko Willink?

  You just discovered it. So that's like a cover and move situation, right? If cover and move isn't happening and it isn't happening because of egos, if you pull the thread, you'll get to the end of the thread and it will be attached to someone ego in most cases. Is there a possibility that it's like, hey, this group doesn't know what the other groups doing? Yeah, absolutely. Those are, but those are easy problems to solve. Cause we can just pull the thread. We find at the end, oh, we need to, we need better coordination between these two teams. Cool. There it is. When you pull the thread, it comes out, the, the little ego's dangling on the end of it. Then you go, okay, let's expose these and let's try and ask questions to figure out and get people to realize what they're looking at.

• 14:47Jocko Willink?

  You want them to come to that conclusion. That's the trick. That's the maneuver. Is to get them to come to conclusion and they might never verbalize it. But they go, yeah, in their mind, they're like, I guess I didn't want to ask for help because my ego is in the way. So there's one, uh, you know, if, if you got people that aren't taking, aren't keeping things simple, just go through the laws of combat. Simple. Make people are making the plans too complex. And yet they keep doing it. And they're, when it, when you go and say, hey, you know, these plans seem like they're really complex. And of course, they say something like, hey, I don't think everyone understood the plan. It seemed, it seemed kinda complex. And the person says,

• 15:32Jocko Willink?

  "People need to pay more attention when on briefing."

• 15:37Jocko Willink?

  And you pull on that, right? "The frontline troops, they need more detail, because they, otherwise they're gonna screw up. That's why it's so complex." It's like, okay, let's look at what's really happening. What's really happening is I've created a plan that I won't give up because my ego's too big. Right? When you pull that thread and you go, "Listen, hey, the frontline troops don't understand what to do. It seems like that could be a real problem."

• 16:07Jocko Willink?

  And, and maybe, and this is another thing, you give them a little out. You give them a little out, like, you know, maybe we just need to back it off a little bit so that they can understand it. Maybe they're not as smart as you. A little ego massage, and goes, "You know what? Fine. I'll simplify it." Boom. And in the meantime, you've given them a little indication. Look, if you confront them, that's what I'm saying. It's hard for people to wanna play the long game here. Because the short game is, "You, you, you think you're so smart, your plan's too complex, and you're sticking with them because you've got a big ego." How's that gonna work out? It's not gonna work out good. Can it work out 4% of the time? Yes. The other, the other 96% of the time, you get a defensive person that's now accusing other people. It's,

• 16:54Jocko Willink?

  take the indirect and play the long game. Take the indirect attack and play the long game. Uh, prioritize and execute, right? Why is that failing? Because again, this question is ego's a problem. So where does ego manifest as a problem? It can manifest as a problem in prioritize and execute. Because if someone's got a big ego, and they're not getting things done, and they go, "I can get it done." Because their ego thinks they can do anything, right? Or prioritize, connect, execute, ego can be a problem. If you have a project and I have a project, and you need help.

• 17:28Jocko Willink?

  And your project is actually more important and I should give you resources, but instead I'm like, my initiative is just as important as Echo's is.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:35Jocko Willink?

  Which is just my ego. I should look at it and say, okay, you know what? You should be the priority.

• 17:40Jocko Willink?

  And another good one is, yeah, well, it's just what I just said. Like, hey, I'm not going to give up. Why should I have to give my resources to Echo? Those are mine. Those are mine. No, actually, what's the biggest priority? Okay, put my ego aside. Echo's priority is actually bigger than mine. I'm going to give him four of my people so that he can get the job done.

• 18:05Jocko Willink?

  So when you pull the thread on this and you say, well, hey, why is it, Janka, why is it you don't want to give people to Echo? And I'm like, well, you know,

• 18:14Jocko Willink?

  what if something else comes up? Well, if something else comes up, you can give it back. Well, you know, they gotta learn to respect the chain of command. Well, they're still work for you. They'll just be loaned over to Echo. Whoa. You see what I'm saying?

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:27Jocko Willink?

  It's just ego, ego, ego, ego. So these are the kind of problems that manifest themselves inside of a company wrapped around ego. And decentralized command, you can have the same thing happen with decentralized command. How does ego cause a problem with decentralized command? It's like this, hey, I noticed that, um, you know, you seem to be making all the decisions and the folks out in the field don't really have the opportunity to kind of make calls. Why is that? I'm the only one that has the experience to do this.

• 18:57Jocko Willink?

  They don't have the skill that I have. Right? So there's all these reasons that one of those are ego problems, right? And, and by the way, if it's, if it's not an ego problem, then I, then, then I say, oh, you know what? Cause I haven't really trained the guys well enough. And I'm going to, you know what? You're right. I've been making way too many detailed decisions for the guys out in the field. I need to get down there, make sure they know what's going on, train them better so that I can back off. Cool. That's the person that's got their ego checked. The person that's like, I'm the only one that can do this. Like, no, you can't. No, you're not. And if you are, you're wrong. Cause right now you've got three people working for you. What happens when you have eight? You're going to go around the field in all these different locations to make every single decision? No, you can't.

• 19:42Jocko Willink?

  So get your ego under control, realize that you're not the only one that can do this job, and train your people properly. Again, that's a direct assault, probably gonna cause problems. Instead, if we just pull the thread on it, hey, what's going on? It seems like your, the folks down the field don't have a lot of authority. Well, you know, they don't experience. Oh, okay. You, it's kind of cumbersome though, like them reaching back to you all the time to make these decisions.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  It is, but you know, I'm the one that really knows how to do it.

• 20:11Jocko Willink?

  I mean, what, what happens if, you know, you're sick or, you know, you, someone's gotta, you don't have communications with them?

• 20:22Jocko Willink?

  Do you think it would be a good idea, you know, since you have so much knowledge and experience to maybe pass that on to some of the other people?

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 20:30Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cool. Let's make that happen.

• 20:34Jocko Willink?

  And then obviously ego can absolutely manifest itself when it comes to taking ownership.

• 20:43Jocko Willink?

  I mean, all day long, right? What, oh, that, that project failed. What happened?

• 20:47Speaker 01

  My, my subordinates don't know, don't wanna step up.

• 20:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so it's their fault.

• 20:55Jocko Willink?

  Why, why, why aren't your subordinates taking ownership?

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Cause they don't even know what ownership is.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  They don't wanna take ownership.

• 21:03Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so it's not your fault.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 21:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, what can we do to help them?

• 21:10Jocko Willink?

  Pull the string and you, at the bottom, the person will see it's their ego. They might not admit it, but they'll see it. And then they can start to make adjustments. Now, look, can any of these situations escalate in a point where indirect, indirect, indirect, indirect doesn't work? And eventually you say, you know what? Well, I gotta, I gotta sit echo down and say, listen, here's what I think is the root of the problem. The root of the problem is you think you're the only one that knows how to do this. And in thinking that you're not training, like I might have to get that direct. It does happen. We prefer to use the minimum force required when it comes to leadership, just like being a bouncer.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 21:55Jocko Willink?

  Right? It's not, hey, the guy's a little out of line, hit him in the head with a blackjack.

• 22:01Jocko Willink?

  No, it's like, hey, you're, hey, sir, you know, I think you've had enough for tonight. Can you come with me? That's minimum force required. If the guy says, okay, cool. It's problem solved. If he's, if he says, I'm not going anywhere. Okay, well, we have to escalate. It's the same thing here, but don't start with the direct attack. Just like you don't club the person out of the gate.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  I think it's a slapjack. I'm not sure, but.

• 22:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 22:23Speaker 01

  That's what you're talking about, that leather thing.

• 22:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, a blackjack, yeah.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Blackjack?

• 22:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  All right. It's a black.

• 22:30Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys not use those?

• 22:32Speaker 01

  That's illegal. I think those are illegal to have.

• 22:35Jocko Willink?

  Illegal.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the slapjack. One guy had one. But yeah, I think they're illegal.

• 22:41Jocko Willink?

  So we don't want to escalate straight to the blackjack? Or even a slapjack?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Even a slapjack.

• 22:49Jocko Willink?

  If anyone's using a slapjack.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  I think it's called a slapjack.

• 22:52Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  I'm not sure.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Point remains, I dig it.

• 22:58Jocko Willink?

  Fairly confident you're wrong, but not 100%.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, I'm like.

• 23:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, when someone, you know, when you're pretty confident about something and somebody just throws a little randomness into the soup and it makes you question yourself?

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:09Jocko Willink?

  That's how I feel right now.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's me.

• 23:10Jocko Willink?

  Real confident with a little bit of questions in it.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  If it makes you feel any better, that's my everyday life.

• 23:18Jocko Willink?

  So that's the answer to this question is really pulling the thread on the problem to reveal the root of the problem, which you're gonna see as ego. And then it's there for the people, hopefully to see it, to recognize it, to possibly admit it, maybe not. Give them an out where they can actually make an adjustment without taking the ownership of the ego, because that's okay. We're trying to win, right? We're trying to let the team win. We're not trying to, we're not, my goal is not to make you admit it. Because you know what that is? That's my ego.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  No, yeah.

• 23:54Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna show you, he's got a big ego.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Get him to admit it.

• 23:57Jocko Willink?

  Get him to admit it. That's not what my goal is. My goal is to make you make better decisions as a leader so that we win as a team.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:05Jocko Willink?

  So that's what we're, that's what we're trying to do here.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  It's really interesting that how you laid that out. Cause you used to do that to me.

• 24:17Jocko Willink?

  Uh oh.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Probably still do.

• 24:19Jocko Willink?

  Maybe.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  But it was less about the ego, I think anyway, and maybe it's all the same. Maybe at the end of the day, it's all the same.

• 24:25Jocko Willink?

  It's possible.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Because skating, you're, or trying to dance around.

• 24:28Jocko Willink?

  So explain to me how I would do this to you.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  You do it with excuses. Okay. So like if something didn't get done or can't get done, or I think it's too hard. And really, most of the time, if I'm remembering correctly, it was at the end of the day, this is what it was. It was like, I'm too lazy or whatever, you know? So it'd always be like this excuse, like, well, you know, that's this or that's that. And then you'd have all these, just like how you're saying, and I, and it, it made me remember this because of your tone. How you were like, kind of saying those little answers there. Oh, that's the same tone you use with me, like real simple, just like, well, just here, here's the solution to that problem right here. Cause there's all these little excuses that you make, you know, like, oh, I didn't really have time because I had to do this. And you'd be like, okay, then you just do this, you know? And that'll solve that particular problem. You didn't have this big comprehensive plan to solve my life problem.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  You were like, okay, for every excuse I would make, you'd just have the little solve, you know, the problem or the solution to it. And I'd be like, oh, man. And meanwhile, you're getting backed into this corner or the string is just getting pulled like with every pull is like.

• 25:29Jocko Willink?

  The sense of founder, in your case, it was laziness.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Like I just was too lazy or I'm just like stuck in this routine or whatever. And then, so it could in a way be like, okay, that's just my ego, just thinking that the way, that's not the way I do things kind of thing.

• 25:45Jocko Willink?

  And, and think if I would have used a different tone. Well, think if I would have just, uh, said, that's because you're lazy.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 25:53Jocko Willink?

  You're just being lazy, Echo.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:54Jocko Willink?

  You'd have been like, you don't even know what it takes to make one of these things. Oh, you know what I mean? And then all of a sudden, we, and what does that do to our relationship?

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:00Jocko Willink?

  And what does that do to, to the final product?

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:04Jocko Willink?

  Right now, you're doing something against your will.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:08Jocko Willink?

  With some disdain a little bit. With some disdain on it.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. And yeah, if you would have just been like, hey, you're lazy. This is what my mind would have went to, this belief. This actually, and in a way, it's true. But it doesn't like get anyone anywhere. Where if you would be like, you're lazy, I would have thought and maybe even said that it's not that I'm lazy. It's just you're just this crazy hard worker who have these standards that are unreasonable for a normal person. And I'm just a normal person. Excuse me, you know, kind of an attitude. That's what I would go to, rather than if you like the way how you always do it is like you pull the string or you just sort of.

• 26:43Jocko Willink?

  You know what's interesting too is when I'm doing that, I'm not doing that like, okay, I got here's my next move on Echo. Actually, what I'm doing is like, well, you know, you say, well, we can't, I can't make a video because it's going to take me too long to get through the the raw edits. And I go, you know, I'll say like, well, you know, if you want, just get you, you know, hire someone to do those raw edits for you. Would that work?

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:09Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? I'm asking you a legitimate question.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  Maybe I kind of know the answer. I mean, I suspect I know the answer, but it's not. It's not just, hey, I I'm setting you up. I'm legitimately pulling the thread.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:23Jocko Willink?

  And the answer might be it is impossible to get this project done. But when I say, well, you could hire someone to do those raw edits and then you go.

• 27:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, even if I hire someone, how am I going to transfer all this data? And I go, well, if you want, what couldn't you get an external hard drive and and just physically give it to him? And you'd say, well.

• 27:48Speaker 01

  These aren't actual situations.

• 27:50Jocko Willink?

  No, no, I know.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Just for the for the record.

• 27:52Jocko Willink?

  I don't know the realm of video well enough to to go down those roads.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  The main, the the one that I remember the easiest is like with training. Like you'll be, hey, we're training at four thirty, but I train during the day mostly. Oh, not in the evening. Then you'll be like, oh, yeah, training at four thirty. I'm like, well, you know, and I have all these reasons. And then you're like, you kind of just chip away at all these reasons like, oh, here's a solution to that. Here's a solution to that. Here's a solution. It's like, man, I just, I look, that's just like my routine. I just got to admit it, you know, like, all right. And but I don't get to train with you guys as often, you know, kind of thing. But it's like, yeah, you expose, you pull the string to expose just the like, the little, the little excuses.

• 28:35Jocko Willink?

  So pull the thread, reveal the problem, don't confront if you can help it. And people will start to recognize what the problem is. I mean, this is assuming you're working with. This, well, there's one, there's one problem with this, and that is if the person has a giant ego, that this is the hardest thing for them to admit, right? So they might not admit it, but they'll see it, they'll behave differently. And by the way, one of the good ways to, to use someone's ego against themselves, is when you say something along the lines of, you know, man, it's gonna look good if this gets done right. You know what I'm saying? And they think, oh, cool, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna make this adjustment,

• 29:21Jocko Willink?

  just so it gets done, just so my ego can get, just so I can win.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that was gonna say that, use the word win, because every time like you use the word win, and anytime, what I'd be thinking like, okay, if I didn't win, what else, you know, what's left? You lost.

• 29:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  No matter what excuse you make, you lost. So if you, if you put, shed light on like, use that word and be like, hey, this will make you win. And you're like, hell yeah, but at the same time, the back of your mind, like, basically, if we don't solve these problems or whatever, I lose, I don't want that. So it's like extra motivating.

• 29:55Jocko Willink?

  The, uh, it's the winning at all costs thing. And so the winning at all costs, I wrote like a little section and it was a part of a, one of the special releases on Barnes and Noble's version of dichotomy of leadership was this thing, winning at all costs. And it's, and then someone posted, and I had, I had said it before, right? And someone posted a clip of me saying this idea of winning at all costs. And it's, the way that I talk about it, it's kind of a trick anyways, because I go through this thing about what is leadership and a leadership is this, leadership is that. And then I said, well, leadership is to me is winning at all costs. And somebody put, probably you, put a clip up of me saying that.

• 30:35Jocko Willink?

  And somebody said, of course, someone's like, that's the kind of person that will run people over and blah, blah, blah. Like, like gave him negative things, right? But what they don't realize is what the rest of that clip says and what the rest of that that whole idea of winning at all costs is what I'll do to win at all costs is totally subordinate my ego, help other people, support them, give them what they need and put my, put, put the team and the mission above myself because the most, that's how I'm going to win at all costs. So winning at all costs doesn't mean I'm stepping on other people. It means I'm actually lifting other people up. That's what it means. So if you can use that, you know, if I say, hey, Echo, man, look, we need to win. And if we're going to win, the only

• 31:20Jocko Willink?

  way to win is if you can learn how to work with Jim. Otherwise, we lose. And you're like, you know what? Because I'm a winner, I'll work with Jim. And I'm like, cool. It's a first step. Check. And this was kind of related to a question that, and I've got, we haven't done a Q and A in a long time. And this is kind of a partial Q and A. I don't know. It's just some topics. But anyways, we got one of these questions. Hit it.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yes, Jaco. What do you tell someone who has been passed over for a military promotion they deserved? Could you address this?

• 31:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So part of it is what we just talked about. What do you do when you get passed over? Cool. Why did, and it's also covered in, I think there's, well, I know, there's a, a literal chapter inside leadership, strategy and tactics, which is what to do when you're, when you don't get promoted. That's, that's the actual name of the chapter. When you're not chosen, page 160. Boom. There it is. When you are not chosen. And we covered it on the podcast. So what you do is you go and you say, hey, boss, I know there's opportunities to get promoted. I know I didn't get promoted. I know there must be some shortfalls that I have. Can you help me indicate what those shortfalls are? Cool.

• 32:40Jocko Willink?

  So that's, that's, and I'll just give a factual. There's the officer commissioning program that I got picked up for. It was called the Seaman to Admiral Program. It was a highly selective program. They took 50 sailors from the entire Navy. And there's, I don't know, 250,000 something sailors in the Navy. They took 50.

• 33:04Jocko Willink?

  And the first year that I put in for it, I did not get selected. I got, actually, I got selected as an alternate, which was, as they say, almost worse.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I see it.

• 33:15Jocko Willink?

  Because you don't, you don't, you get nothing.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  You get to smell it.

• 33:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you get to smell it, you don't get to touch it, you don't get to taste it. So it was not good. Well, it was good because I was like, okay, I'm, I'm close. But so, but I didn't get it. I didn't get it. And what did I do? Assess and said, what can I do better? And worked harder and the next year I got it. So if you don't get promoted because you deserved it, maybe you didn't deserve it. And if you did deserve it, you'll get it next time. And instead of saying you deserved it, why not look at it and say, okay, what did I not do? To make myself the best, absolute best candidate that they could not question needed to get this promotion? Instead, we're saying I deserved it, someone else got it. What is that doing?

• 34:04Jocko Willink?

  Blaming the boss, blaming the selection process, blaming all these other things that you cannot control. But if you take ownership of it and say, you know what? Okay, I didn't get promoted. There must be some things that I can do better.

• 34:17Jocko Willink?

  There's the answer. Own it. Ask. Give, give me some feedback, please. What do I need to make this happen? And then implement.

• 34:28Jocko Willink?

  Now, this, this,

• 34:33Jocko Willink?

  there was this other topic that I kind of wanted to bring up. That was from, once again, it was from Jaco Live and, and there was a young woman.

• 34:45Jocko Willink?

  And again, this, this goes to

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  the kind of variety of different people that were coming to the Jaco Lives were all over the place. So this, this young woman asked a question that was kind of like, how do you? And I can't, when you're at the live events, there's light shining in your eyes. So you're not really a hundred percent sure. You don't get it. It's not like you're not seeing the person face to face. So I'm kind of looking out into the light. I'm seeing this frame of a, of a young woman. And she asked something along the lines of, you know, how do you handle when there's people that are trying to pull you down and, and, and, you know, pick you apart?

• 35:25Jocko Willink?

  And I said, what do you do? And she's like, I'm in school. And I said, what school? And she's in high school. And I said, what grade? And she said, I'm a freshman. And I said, okay, so you're getting bullied. Right? Because essentially, that's what she was saying, right? I'm getting picked on. I got people trying to drag me down. You know what that's called? That's called bullying. I said, so you're getting bullied? And she said, yes, getting bullied. So I said, I said, you know, I thought about it for a second.

• 36:03Jocko Willink?

  I said, well, I've got some bad news and I've got some good news. And I'm gonna start with the bad news. The bad news is that people can be mean. And they can be mean for a variety of reasons. They can be mean because they're insecure. They can be mean because they're bullied themselves. They can be mean because they're unhappy. They can be mean because they're scared to be vulnerable. So they put up that front. They might be suffering and jealous and have no self-esteem. It's the way some people are.

• 36:47Jocko Willink?

  And there's some people that are just evil, that get joy out of putting other people down. So there's all, those kind of people exist. And they especially exist inside of immature people in high school. So that's the bad news. And then I said, but the good news is, high school is not life.

• 37:16Jocko Willink?

  And when I said that, it was actually funny. When I said that, like, people started clapping. Because everyone in that room knew that it was true. And that reminded me of another conversation that I've been having with people lately.

• 37:35Jocko Willink?

  About

• 37:38Jocko Willink?

  about some, about ecosystems, something I've called ecosystems. So little ecosystems in the world that people get caught up in. And they get caught trying to get to the top hierarchy of some little ecosystem somewhere.

• 37:58Jocko Willink?

  And, look, I get it.

• 38:02Jocko Willink?

  Uh, you know, I get it, Jordan. Right? Jordan Peterson, we're trying to ascend the top of our dominance hierarchy, be the best you can. I totally get that. Absolutely.

• 38:14Jocko Willink?

  But we, there's, there can be a problem with this. From multiple angles. The world is filled with these little ecosystems and high school is one of them. Remember the little high school ecosystem? There's someone that's popular, there's someone that's, you know, there's all these little, there's this ecosystem there and high school. This is something, you know, you, you look at a high school kid and you, you try and explain to them that once you left high school, no one really cares. Right? Correct. If you care about it deeply, you're actually Uncle Rico. Right? If you're the one that's running around saying, well, when I was in high school, this, when I was in high school, that.

• 38:56Jocko Willink?

  But here's the problem. And this is one of the reasons when I wrote Way of the Warrior Kid, the first one, one of the things that triggered me to write it was, you know, here I was at work, war going on, big, real legitimate, crazy problems and, and, and dynasties and dynamics to figure out, like, things are going on. And I come home and like my, one of my kids would be sad that they got called a name.

• 39:23Jocko Willink?

  Or sad that they got a low grade on a test or whatever. And I would be thinking like I, I, I had a moment of clarity where I thought, I can't believe they're, I can't believe they're sad about this. Who cares? And then I realized, oh yeah, idiot, Jocko. That thing that's going on in their world is their whole world. It's the eco, see, it's their entire, their entire world is in that one ecosystem. So

• 39:50Jocko Willink?

  it's hard for people to realize that their ecosystem that they're in is not the whole world. It's the same thing with when you start getting to college and I've got two kids in college now. You know, this whole ecosystem around first getting into college and once you get to college, where you know, where are you going to get your MBA? Where are you doing your internship? There's this whole thing, right?

• 40:10Jocko Willink?

  And once again, if you step outside that ecosystem into just the normal world, no one actually cares about where you got your degree. Not no one, because there's a little people, there's a group of people inside that ecosystem that they, where they go, where'd you get your MBA? Oh, where'd you study? You know, and there's people that care about that. There's other people that literally do not care at all. And I meet incredibly, like from that perspective, I meet incredibly successful business leaders all the time that don't have their MBA and went to some state school in Iowa. I got props the other day from someone from Iowa that said, whenever you think of that state, I'm like, yes, from Iowa. Some state school and I, whatever, some little

• 40:53Jocko Willink?

  community college in Nebraska and they go out and world and dominate. So, but that's not important. We know that that happens. Look, and there's people that go to Ivy League schools and they do great too. But what I'm saying is they get in this little ecosystem where, where, what they're actually trying to do is climb to the top of that ecosystem only for the sake of climbing to the top of that ecosystem, not how it measures into the greater world. What kind of car do you have? There's an ecosystem you can get wrapped up in. You know, I've got, my Porsche is better than your Porsche.

• 41:27Jocko Willink?

  Right? There's people that are into that. And there's other people that I do not care at all. At all.

• 41:41Jocko Willink?

  What about our little ecosystems where, right? Jiu Jitsu has a little ecosystem. You know what I'm saying? There's a little ecosystem, who's who, what, the podcast world.

• 41:54Jocko Willink?

  Has an ecosystem. So all these, and those are just things that, that you and I are actually actively in, right? We do Jiu Jitsu and we have a podcast. So we could jump into like, where are you at on the hierarchy of these ecosystems? And again, Jordan, I get it. We're trying to, we're trying to go up the hierarchy. I get it. But you have to be able to put that in check. Cause why are you doing that? What is driving you? If it's, if what's driving you to ascend that hierarchy is because it's going to make you better and the people around you better, that's good. If you're doing it for your own ego though, that's a problem. That's where it becomes a problem.

• 42:35Jocko Willink?

  Guess what? The jobs, the companies, the industries, they get created, sorry, the jobs that get created by companies and industries.

• 42:47Jocko Willink?

  They have their own little ecosystem, right? About, I worked here, I worked there, I, I ran this region. Like you can see it. It's an ecosystem that exists. The SEAL Teams is a freaking ecosystem. And everyone's in there going, you're like, okay, where are you at on the ecosystem? Where did you, you know? How many deployments have you done? Where did you deploy to? What, what schools have you been to? There's a little ecosystem that people are trying to get up and it's, and I get it. There's some positive to that, right? Cause you're trying to do better, trying to work harder. That's good. Then there's, there's things, the bar scene. You probably can relate to this better than me. There's an ecosystem of the clubs. And who's the owner and who's the manager and who's the GM?

• 43:31Jocko Willink?

  And who's the head door guy?

• 43:33Speaker 01

  And who comes in your club?

• 43:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, who are you gonna let in the club?

• 43:39Jocko Willink?

  Music scene, real estate. There's just ecosystems everywhere. And so this is the point that I guess I'm, I'm getting to and where it ties back into this young female that asked this question.

• 43:56Jocko Willink?

  When you, what you have to do is realize that in most of these cases, when you step outside of that little ecosystem, no one cares about that ecosystem. No one cares. No one cares.

• 44:10Jocko Willink?

  If I was to tell my mom,

• 44:15Jocko Willink?

  "Hey mom, I got my black belt in jujitsu, 2005. Hey mom, I got my black belt in jujitsu." She, you know what she would say? "Oh, congratulations." You know what she's thinking? That I'm in a strip mall doing karate somewhere. You know what I mean? That's what she's thinking. She doesn't care at all. She doesn't care at all.

• 44:36Jocko Willink?

  Uh, your Porsche that you told me about?

• 44:39Jocko Willink?

  I can introduce you to many people that think if you spent more than $5,000 on a vehicle, you're an idiot. Never mind $150,000.

• 44:54Jocko Willink?

  In fact, if you ever hear me brag about a vehicle, the vehicle that I brag about probably the most is my 1997 Dodge Grand Caravan.

• 45:01Jocko Willink?

  That's the one I brag about the most.

• 45:05Jocko Willink?

  So, when you step outside the ecosystem of cool cars, people literally do not care.

• 45:14Jocko Willink?

  The, the music scene, "Oh, I know this recording artist. I know, oh, I'm going to this studio." It's like, no one cares. So, my point in saying this is if you find yourself distraught about your failure inside some random ecosystem, then remember that if you can detach and you can step outside that ecosystem, you're gonna realize that that ecosystem, in most cases, doesn't even matter at all. It doesn't matter at all.

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  Detach.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  This is something that, once again, at Jaco Live shows, this came up, you know, we talk about detachment. I talk about detachment. One of the things.

• 45:59Jocko Willink?

  Look, detachment is a great tool as a leader to have. Because it allows you to take a step back and see what's going on, right? Clearly, it's a powerful tool. But you combine that aspect of detachment to this other aspect of detachment when, when we've talked about people that get caught in a bad mental headspace, and I don't know if I want to use the word depression because I'm not a psychologist and I've never really had this depression. So I can't really speak about it from that angle, but to say that people get caught in a rut, that happens.

• 46:34Jocko Willink?

  And I've talked about that idea, like, let's say, okay. When, when, if you lose someone, right, someone that you know dies. And you get put into that rut.

• 46:46Jocko Willink?

  And the way I've described it before is like, there's a storm cloud all around your head. And no matter which direction you look, you see storm cloud.

• 46:55Jocko Willink?

  And anyone that's on the outside, and this is what I've said, anyone that's on the outside looking, go, oh, man, you're just surrounded by the storm. If you, if you step over here, you're going to get away from that. There's a light at the end of the tunnel. But from their perspective, they don't see it at all.

• 47:10Jocko Willink?

  If you can detach.

• 47:13Jocko Willink?

  If you can take a step back from your own head, you can actually see the end of the storm clouds. You can see that you can get your way out of this rut that you're in.

• 47:23Jocko Willink?

  Now. People ask me about how to detach, and I talk about it, leadership, strategy and tactics, but I'm going to take it a little bit further. Think about this. So here's a couple of things, and actually, the reason that I, I start, I used to kind of look at it.

• 47:43Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, it's real simple, right? Hey, take a step back. Just take a step back, take a breath, right, you know, look around. In fact, relax, look around and make a call was what I wrote about extreme ownership when it, when it comes to detach, like, relax.

• 47:57Jocko Willink?

  Look around, make a call. That's detachment.

• 48:01Jocko Willink?

  The first time I really broke it down to try and give people some more specific instructions was on the Warrior Kid Podcast. Cause you know, a little kid would say, "When I get mad, I start to lose my temper when I'm wrestling, or I start to lose my temper when I'm in class and little Billy's keeps poking me in the back of the head. How do I not lose my temper?" Well, what they need to do is detach. So I said, "Listen, take a step back." So I thought about what I kinda do. Take a step back. And one of the things I said was,

• 48:39Jocko Willink?

  "Lift your chin up."

• 48:42Jocko Willink?

  Lift your chin up. And now, now when you start to think, I was talking about, "Why do I even do that? What, what benefit does that have?" Well, if you think about, when you take a step back and you actually lift up your chin, think about what it does to your vision. All of a sudden, your vision is elevated. It's an elevated one inch, but it's elevated. And you now have a physical, new perspective. You have a physically new perspective of what's going on. By taking a step back, lifting your chin up. The other thing it makes you do is if you put your head back, it like makes you open up your chest and open up your lungs and it makes you take a breath. Which I used to attribute this to when you're on the radio. Look, one of the reasons that I would, that I like thought about detaching and something that I got

• 49:27Jocko Willink?

  realized was a good tool is you never want to sound panicked on the radio and the SEAL teams. So before you key up that microphone to say something, you go,

• 49:39Jocko Willink?

  and then you say, "All right, guys, we need to move towards that north building." Instead of,

• 49:45Jocko Willink?

  no, you don't do that. So when you, when you lift your chin up, you, you know, you kind of take a breath. It forces you to kind of take a breath. And the other, this is the coolest thing that I kind of connected this.

• 49:59Jocko Willink?

  At Jaco Live. And the reason I connected it, because I was up, like right now, we're sitting down and we're kind of, we're kind of stuck in this position. So at Jaco Live, I had like a, like a, a lavalier microphone on. So I was up and moving around and getting crazy. So as I was going through this, I was acting out the, the process of detaching. So I take a step back, I lift up my chin and I made this connection. I was like, think about the posture that you have when you're getting ready to get into a fight. It's literally the opposite. You lift up your hands, you duck, you tuck your chin down, you roll your shoulders forward to protect yourself,

• 50:42Jocko Willink?

  and you are getting in this defensive posture. Which is not an open posture for seeing what's going on, right? It's a focused posture. When you take a step back, you lift up your chin, you're actually making yourself physically vulnerable.

• 51:00Jocko Willink?

  And what you're also doing is you're, so you're opening yourself up to threats, but you're opening up your mind to see a different perspective.

• 51:10Jocko Willink?

  So

• 51:12Jocko Willink?

  that is incredibly important. It's an incredibly important first step in training yourself how to detach from all this chaos that's going on, from the mayhem of a leadership situation to detaching from your own ecosystem that you're wrapped up in, that you think is important, that no one cares about. No one cares about outside that stupid club you're in. No one cares. No one cares. Outside the-

• 51:45Jocko Willink?

  The, the, the, the 38 people that are involved in your glee club, they, they've got you paranoid and freaking out. No one cares. So if you can take a step back and you can see that, and finally, if you can take a step back from your own brain and you can kind of assess that cloud that you're caught in, you'll see that that cloud is non-infinite and you'll see that there's a way out,

• 52:15Jocko Willink?

  which is important.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Very important.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that, and that can get more strong and powerful, that, that lure, that sucking, like keeping you in your ecosystem when it's like part of your routine, you know? Cause it kind of feeds into your identity a lot of times, like in jujitsu, super strong. Like where you, you know, if you get tapped out by a guy who never taps you out or something, that'll follow you all the way home with your fa- you know, your family, you're thinking, man, that guy tapped me out today. Like it can, you know, if your mind is just sucked in, cause it's kind of part of your identity, whatever. But yeah, if you can just step back, look around, kind of detach from that, you're like, Brad, no one cares. Like every, literally every other environment that you go in in life, nobody cares that guy tapped. No one cares that you'd even do jujitsu. Unless you gotta spring into action at the store or something.

• 53:06Jocko Willink?

  Then they're stoked.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:07Jocko Willink?

  They're like, what was that? This dude just worked magic. This dude's a ninja. He put that guy to sleep.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. Which is probably never gonna happen, by the way, as far as probability goes.

• 53:17Jocko Willink?

  I think, and I think when you're younger, I mean, obviously when you're younger, you get, you get caught up in these ecosystems much more. And this, what's scary is this can be the downfall of a kid, right? You get caught up in the drug ecosystem, you get caught up in the booze ecosystem, you get caught up in the, in the, what is it? Delinquency, like, hey, I'm gonna cause problems. Hey, you know what? Do boys do? Boy, this is another thing that came out of Jocko Life, like, boys are trying to prove themselves to their friends and to themselves. How tough they are, how cool they are. So when, what, whatever, whatever little ecosystem has their own little cool meters in it.

• 54:02Jocko Willink?

  Right? And sometimes that cool meter is, you know, I'm getting so, I'm gonna drink this fifth of Jack.

• 54:11Jocko Willink?

  Or I'm gonna smoke this or whatever like that's they wanna move up in that ecosystem. And so they do stuff that outside outside that ecosystem people go, hey, that's actually one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:24Jocko Willink?

  But you can't see that.

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, the party scene is a big one. I mean, there's a difference between like getting caught in the ecosystem of the party scene and then going down. The spiral of like drugs and addiction cuz a lot of times addiction is like that's just like a chemical payoff you get. And then that chemical payoff you you want so much. It's just more of a payoff than literally anything else in life and you and then it just compounds.

• 54:46Jocko Willink?

  But it's the ecosystem that introduces you to the payoff that ends up being an addiction that ends up ruining your life.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Yes, solely. Yeah, like the party scene, for example, it's like, yeah, okay. Did you go to this party? Oh, you didn't go to there? You're kind of less than kind of thing, you know, oh, I'm at all the parties. You're the kind of up, you know, up there in that little ecosystem. Then you go to those parties and you gotta function at the party, right? So you can't just go to the party and be like, no, I'm not drinking or whatever. They're like, oh, you're lame. You know, you're not fitting in the party at all. So you're gonna fit in. So you're gonna do the, you know, you're obviously gonna drink. And then what if they're doing some some other drugs in the back room, the cool room, the VIP room, the secret room or whatever? If you're not part of that, you're sort of, eh, you're the minion. You're not one of the VIPs. You want to be one of the VIPs. You gotta function there.

• 55:27Jocko Willink?

  There's a whole peer pressure thing wrapped up inside the ecosystem.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:30Jocko Willink?

  That's like the primary driver of the ecosystem.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:33Jocko Willink?

  Cuz even the positive things like, where you get, where you, uh, where you getting your MBA?

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:38Jocko Willink?

  Like, so they got all these eighteen, well, no, nineteen, whatever, twenty, twenty-one year old college kids that are like, where are you gonna get your MBA? Where are you gonna get your MBA? Where are you applying? Where are you applying? Where are you applying? Where are you applying?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 55:50Jocko Willink?

  And if you're not applying to the whatever, then you're a little bit down on the ecosystem. And you know what? No one cares. Well, I can't say no one cares cuz there are people that are going, hey, we want to get someone from this school. Cool.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 56:04Jocko Willink?

  Fine. That's a little tiny subset of the same ecosystem.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and but if you're talking about like, yeah, if you're talking about people outside the ecosystem, no, they don't care. People care if you're capable. And then so a lot of times if you're like, oh, you got your MBA from here. Okay, that's an established kid, you know, capable. They're gonna, you know, put out some good students or some good trained people, whatever. Then there's that, but it's not like, they don't care about what you care about right now. You know, the fact that you got it from here, it doesn't mean you're like awesome.

• 56:32Jocko Willink?

  The thing that's so hard for kids is they just can't see outside. The ecosystem is their world.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:39Jocko Willink?

  And so introducing people to this concept that there are in fact these random ecosystems that actually no one cares about is a positive thing.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:50Jocko Willink?

  Don't get caught up in them.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Don't get caught up in trying.

• 56:54Jocko Willink?

  Especially not negative ones, but yeah, what there's also, people take positive ecosystems and turn them negative because they start getting the ego involved like, like that's right. Jiu Jitsu is totally positive ecosystem. Hey, we're just here to train. We're here to have fun. And all of a sudden it turns into drama because we haven't talked too much about the Jiu Jitsu drama. And I'll be honest with you, one of the reasons that we don't talk a lot about the Jiu Jitsu drama is probably because we don't deal with it a lot because we have a very open door policy at our gym. And we're just kind of cool and we just want to train Jiu Jitsu and want everyone else to train Jiu Jitsu. And I think San Diego at large is very similar to that because there's just Jiu Jitsu everywhere. So we all just kind of know each other. And so I think that has something to do with it.

• 57:39Jocko Willink?

  And I also think there's less Jiu Jitsu drama now than there was 10 years ago.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 57:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, 10 years ago was like, that's my student.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:46Jocko Willink?

  You went to my other, you went to someone else's academy? Cool. You're out of my academy forever. I banish you.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  It's.

• 57:52Jocko Willink?

  Right? There was that kind of drama. Is there still that kind of drama? There probably is some, but not as bad as it used to be.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:58Jocko Willink?

  But they took a positive ecosystem. And turned it into negative ecosystem.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I would imagine that's kind of everything like even okay. So my nephew gets good grades, really good grades, but he takes it. You know how like certain students, they take their grades like super seriously. They get one bag or they're late for school like, bro, if to me, if let's say my mom brought me to school.

• 58:22Jocko Willink?

  Bro, if you have to explain to me that you weren't worried about being late when you were 10, it's unnecessary. But go on.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Wildly unnecessary.

• 58:29Jocko Willink?

  For the, for the, for the people will let you explain how much you didn't care about being late, even as a child. Go ahead.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  Especially for school. Put it this way, if I was late, had to get a tardy slip, bruh, the connection between that and like grades and success in life was literally non-existent.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  So let's say, let's say the bus was late.

• 58:52Jocko Willink?

  I would say maybe that's how you ended up showing up late all the time, but go ahead.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  It's possible. It's very possible. So if my parents or my mom or dad or whatever, if they're driving me to school and they were running late, bro, I, me caring was literally at a zero. I didn't care at all. In fact, I was like, cool. I don't have to spend as much time, you know, at school and not that I was bad at school or anything. I'm just saying like, bruh, I didn't care about that stuff at all. Anyway, my point is some people are the opposite. Some people are like, I can't be late for school. It's like school is like everything in their grades and stuff like that. That's positive. That's really good, actually. But it can get out of hand.

• 59:25Jocko Willink?

  That's the thing. It can get out of hand. Where you get kids freaking out. You get kids cheating.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  Cheating, freaking out.

• 59:30Jocko Willink?

  Freaking out.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  Taking weird drugs to like study, like a lot of whatever.

• 59:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, all those things. All those things are bad and all of them are real related to the fact that they think that that ecosystem is the whole world.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Everything.

• 59:41Jocko Willink?

  And, and let's be honest. I mean, how much did that ecosystem affect you? You didn't even show up to school a lot of time or do any homework. You seem to be doing all right.

• 59:52Jocko Willink?

  Now you're here, king of the podcast ecosystem, Echo Charles.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. So everyone should do that, right? No, man. Yeah, crazy. Yeah, I think if, if you take, and not, not that I'm like the epitome of, or the poster child for great parenting advice, nothing like this, but I think like the more you take your kids and see other stuff outside of school, kind of their mind is going to not just be attached to like the school scenario, you know?

• 1:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's a whole debate, you know, that you could have like, but here's a real simple question. Is your kid, if your kid goes, is your kid 10 years old, they're in fifth grade? And they don't want to miss school, so they don't go with you to

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Kauai.

• 1:00:39Jocko Willink?

  Whatever, Kauai. They don't go experience something like, yeah, that, I guarantee you that the experience in Kauai is way more beneficial educationally. Spiritually.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Jocko Willink?

  Athletically.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:00:55Jocko Willink?

  Then, hey, they, they missed three days of math.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:59Jocko Willink?

  Bring the math book.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Bring it, yeah. Or the reading, yeah, for sure.

• 1:01:03Jocko Willink?

  And it's not just Kauai either, like, you know, I mean, even just going to see what you do at work or whatever.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Jocko Willink?

  Like I used to take my kid

• 1:01:12Jocko Willink?

  to, you know, go in training sites.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Jocko Willink?

  Are you kidding me? Best thing ever.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And, and I'm not even necessarily saying have a missed school to see this stuff. I'm not necessarily saying that. Uh, but I'm just saying like, everything isn't like, okay, go home, do homework. It's like everything, if you if you, uh, create this idea that school is everything in their head, then you know, it's, they're gonna tend to think that, I think. But, you know, if you see, you know, let them see other places where you work or whatever, whether it be on the weekends or summertime, whatever, you know, see, just see other things. They realize, okay, school isn't everything, you know?

• 1:01:48Jocko Willink?

  And what you're really showing them is this is one ecosystem in the world. It's called school. It's an important one.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:54Jocko Willink?

  But there's no reason to get crazy. There's other ecosystems out there that are also cool and good.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 1:02:03Jocko Willink?

  All right. Keep detached. Don't get stuck in ecosystems. All right. Next question.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  I am stuck in a prolonged period of things not going my way professionally or socially. All that really is going on well is my time management. Still, even after having owned up to my part in getting here, I still seem stuck in a failure loop.

• 1:02:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay. So.

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  What's being addressed here is

• 1:02:40Jocko Willink?

  the prolonged period of things not going away. And, and we know that a key part of getting out of a rut like this, or a failure loop, is taking ownership of those failures, of those problems.

• 1:02:58Jocko Willink?

  That's very important. But guess what? That alone doesn't solve them. At all. Just saying, "I didn't get promoted. Okay, it was my fault." Period. That doesn't solve the fact that you didn't get promoted. "I'm not getting called back to do this other contracting job. It's my fault." Does that mean you get called back? No, it doesn't mean anything.

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  Taking ownership means that you actually have to identify the problem. You know you're responsible for it. And then you actually have to solve the problem. That's what you have to do. Just taking ownership of the problem doesn't make it go away. You have to take ownership of the problem. You have to take ownership of finding a solution. And then you have to take ownership of implementing that solution. So this is real straightforward. Now, there's one little tiny part that I want to point out, which you may or may not have noticed, Echo Charles, and I'm gonna point it out. So. Pay attention to this last sentence in the question. "Still, even after having owned up to my part in getting here,

• 1:04:11Jocko Willink?

  I still seem stuck in a failure, failure loop." What'd you notice about that, Echo Charles?

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  As if there's another part-

• 1:04:18Jocko Willink?

  There's a whole nother part, maybe even parts.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:21Jocko Willink?

  Right, there's multiple facets of the world that are conspiring to keep you in this failure loop.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like that tone of when someone's like, "Hey, I did my part. I did my job." Hands up, you know, kind of thing. "I did my job, that's not my job." The other parts that are more implied, I guess, now that you're kind of uncovering them. It's like there's this other job that someone else's sort of part.

• 1:04:44Jocko Willink?

  So this is the thing.

• 1:04:47Jocko Willink?

  And this is what, this is what makes this very challenging. Is-

• 1:04:54Jocko Willink?

  This idea that like, but how could I possibly control this or that? How can I possibly take ownership of the fact? Now, this is a weak one. How can I possibly take ownership of the fact that my boss is an idiot and fired me? How can that be my fault? That he didn't see how good I was, right? Okay, we see what's going on there. You obviously aren't being introspective and taking a look and saying, okay, this is obviously my fault. Here's what I need to change. So there's things like that where you go, look, you're just not. Same thing with relationships, right?

• 1:05:34Jocko Willink?

  She broke up with me. How can I own that? Well, maybe you look at yourself and you see how you acted as a partner in that relationship. And if you just want to look at that person and say it was her fault, she was crazy? And she would, it was her fault, she didn't understand how awesome I was? That's not, that's, you need to take ownership of your own behavior. Why did she think that? Now, you do get to these things where you have no control.

• 1:06:07Jocko Willink?

  So, got asked a question.

• 1:06:11Jocko Willink?

  A guy said, my, I lost my girlfriend to opiate overdose, dead. She died. How do I take ownership of that? And so I expanded that question because that's one of those things where you look at, you know, when you look at it, you go, how can you take ownership of that? This person did so much drugs. And it wasn't like, I, like, okay, I don't know the specifics of the situation, but if, you know, I'm doing everything I can to help my girlfriend and then one day I come home and she's OD'd, she's dead. Okay.

• 1:06:55Jocko Willink?

  How can I, I wasn't even there, right? And I, let's just say I'd done everything, taken her to rehab, done all this stuff. And as far as I could tell, she was clean. And then behind my back, without telling me, she did this, right? So it's almost like, okay, that's as much separation as I can get.

• 1:07:14Jocko Willink?

  How do you take ownership of a situation like that? And so here's what I went on to say to this guy.

• 1:07:21Jocko Willink?

  I said, this might seem like a unique situation, but it's not because there's things that occur in our lives that we actually don't have any control over. For instance, most horrible, you, your family member, someone, you know, gets cancer, gets a horrible terminal disease. How do you take ownership of that? And the answer is, in these cases, when things that are truly beyond your control occur, what you take ownership of is how you respond to them.

• 1:07:53Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's what you take ownership. How do you respond to? You lose your girlfriend to drugs, your kid gets cancer, you get cancer, something, you get this horrible disease. How do you respond to that? That's what you can take ownership of. And that's what you have to take ownership of. So, I guess my point in saying that is, yes, there are absolutely things that you cannot control. And what you can control is your reaction to them when they unfold. That makes sense. What scares me about this guy is he's saying he's owned up to his part.

• 1:08:29Jocko Willink?

  But, that means he's blaming someone else and I can, the amount of things that we have zero control over is very small. So many things, if we look at ourselves and say, what could I do better? What could I do different? How can I make an adjustment here?

• 1:08:46Jocko Willink?

  How can I? Adapt to the way this boss is? How can I adapt to the way this? Girl is that I'm trying to have a relationship and by the way, it might not be the best relationship. Maybe that's part of what you need to do. Is take ownership of the fact that you're addicted to this. That's what he's saying. This guy here is saying he's so social, I'm assuming he's got some problems with his female friends, right? Or, or friends in general. Hey, did anyone want to come watch UFC? Oh, not really. I'm, I'm buying guys. Oh, it's okay. We're gonna go to, you know.

• 1:09:20Jocko Willink?

  I'm just there watching it by myself. I can't believe that, you know? What's wrong with everyone else? No, actually, what's wrong with me?

• 1:09:29Jocko Willink?

  Now, truth be told, I don't want to watch the UFC with anybody else generally. I just want to sit alone and watch the fight. No commentary, no questions. When they ask me a question,

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:09:42Jocko Willink?

  "What was that move?" No. I'm watching the fight.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 1:09:47Jocko Willink?

  Everyone just be quiet.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  A lot of times, some of us, we like to demonstrate our professional knowledge of the subject, you know?

• 1:09:56Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, answer here. You need to look at the, the reason that you're probably stuck in this loop continually is because the things that you're blaming on other people, take ownership of them, get them fixed. Take ownership of them and get them fixed. Take ownership of them, make some moves. Take ownership of them, look what you can do different. That's what you have to do.

• 1:10:23Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:10:26Jocko Willink?

  Uh, next question.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  In your recent book, Leadership Strategy and Tactics, you mentioned establishing trustworthy relationships with superiors. You speak of performance and compelling tasks.

• 1:10:40Jocko Willink?

  Completing tasks.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Oh, completing tasks, yes. Performance and completing tasks. You stated, "Boss wants me to fill out some extra paperwork, I'll do it." "Boss needs me to cover a shift for someone else on the team, I've got it." "Boss has a nasty, low-reward mission that needs executing, I'm all over it." Page forty-nine, fifty. How does this separate you from being a yes-man? Especially when being a yes-man is looked upon so negatively these days? What are your thoughts?

• 1:11:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so there's actually, uh, maybe he hasn't gotten there, but there's a whole section in the book that's called "Yes-Man", and why you don't want to be a yes-man. Because if you're a yes-man, you don't push back when a situation requires there to be pushback. So...

• 1:11:24Jocko Willink?

  So read a little bit more, but to make it quite simple. Being a yes man is saying yes to everything regardless of whether it's a good idea or not. Building relationships and establishing a good communication and a good

• 1:11:42Jocko Willink?

  rapport with your superior is totally different than being a yes man. Part of it is saying yes, because if you resist everything that they say to you, they don't really think, they don't really value your opinion. They just know that you're just a no man. No, we can't do, no, we can't, you're Mr. Negative. A yes man is just gonna do whatever. So what you do is you say yes when you can. Some menial tasks, that's what he's talking about, some extra paperwork, cool, I'll do it. Some cover shift for someone else, cool, I got it. I can do those things. Those are easy. They're not impacting my team. We're good. Nasty, low reward project that needs to get done, cool, I got it. Let's go, bring it, bring it. I'm here. It's gonna help the team, awesome.

• 1:12:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you want me to do something that's gonna negatively affect the team and put massive amounts of capital at jeopardy, or put people in risk, or put safety at risk. You want me to do that? Hold on, boss. No. Boss, and I wouldn't be just, no boss, I'm not doing it, but I go through the book, how you actually approach those situations. So that you're not a yes man, so when it, when there comes a situation that unfolds that you actually need to say no, you can say no and it gets listened to.

• 1:12:58Jocko Willink?

  That's the difference. Leadership Strategy and Tactics gets them. It's all in there. Kind of, you know, so many of the questions in Leadership Strategy and Tactics, there's so many of the answers that I give in there are based on the questions that I get asked all the time. And so, really, so many of the questions that I'm hearing now, I have the answer in Leadership Strategy and Tactics. Trying not to just say, well, refer to the book, page 98. Oh, refer to the book, page 64. I'm trying not to do that, but just FYI, for anyone that's out there, it's in there.

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  Alright, next question.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  I was hoping for some guidance.

• 1:13:39Jocko Willink?

  Kind of a similar question too, but go on.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  Yes, I was hoping for some guidance.

• 1:13:43Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna cut you off again. No, I just did that for fun.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I dig it.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Anyway, I was hoping for some guidance on how to play the game with a situation at work. I work in an aerospace machine shop. I'm doing this apprenticeship to be a machinist. Mechanist? Machinist, right? This means that I'm supposed to get specific types of on-the-job training with a set number of hours each. With a set number of hours each, okay. I go to school once a week.

• 1:14:16Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna reroll this thing, huh?

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:14:19Jocko Willink?

  Are you gonna roll with it?

• 1:14:19Speaker 01

  No, yeah.

• 1:14:20Jocko Willink?

  Hey, humble man, humble man.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Discern kind of what he's asking at the end of the day. Anyway, set numbers of hours.

• 1:14:26Jocko Willink?

  Normally you get a little sensitive if you make some mistakes. I'm just gonna take this from the top.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Well, my whole life isn't one big mistake, so whatever.

• 1:14:32Jocko Willink?

  Come on.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  It's an expression. Anyway, I go to school once a week to supplement it. The problem is, they won't give me any work that fills those designations. I'm doing my best at the menial paperwork they've had me on for a while without complaint. It's a real problem, though, when I'm paying out-of-pocket for the tuition that comes with the program. Every month spent not getting required training adds to the five years it takes to complete the OJT on-the-job training. How do I get them to move me where I'm supposed to be? Do I just continue to do the best at what they give me? And accept the loss of time and money?

• 1:15:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so you gotta remember the book, The Dichotomy of Leadership: Humble, Not Passive? So, this guy's being humble, playing the game. Hey, I'll do the menial paperwork. I'll work these extra hours. I'll do these things that don't really help me. He's playing the game and he's being humble, right? But he's also, it sounds like, being passive, meaning he needs to up his assertiveness to say, hey, listen. Hey, hey boss, I just want to let you know, I put together this spreadsheet of what I've actually get accomplished. And here's the things that I want to get done, and I know I'm trying to knock out all the stuff, and I'm here to support the team. But I also need to get these things done. Can you help me get these things scheduled so that I can be more value to you and the team?

• 1:15:52Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, you build the relationship through playing the game. You build the relationship by giving support wherever you can, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that you just roll over and never stand up for yourself. That's not what we're talking about here.

• 1:16:09Jocko Willink?

  The difference is you're not building a relationship just so you can take care of yourself, right? That's different. That means I'm just looking out for me. You're building a relationship so that you can move down the right path, which by the way, is going to make you more a bigger asset to the team. So it's a win-win situation. Make sure you build that relationship and then talk to them about what is you're trying to get done, why you're trying to get it done. And that way, we move forward down the path. And by the way, if they're like, shut up and just do this paperwork, or shut up, we're not going to help you. Cool. Maybe we need to find a place that has a little bit better opportunity for me and I'll start to float that out there.

• 1:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Humble, not passive.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  I remember a long time ago, you'd say, you use this, use this word, efficient, be more efficient, rather than make it easier for me. You know, like even though they're essentially the same thing in certain circumstances where it's like, oh yeah, this will make it easier for me to become an asset kind of thing. But for whatever reason, maybe like just the way that sounds.

• 1:17:10Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, it sounds like you're looking out for yourself and yeah.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  But if you say, it'll get me to be a more valuable asset in a more efficient way. Who could say no to that?

• 1:17:20Jocko Willink?

  Who could say no to that? Because what company doesn't want efficiency? No, we want to take the hard road. We want to do things that don't make any sense. We want to do things inefficiently. No. Yes, efficiency is important, not only in jujitsu, not only in judo,

• 1:17:37Jocko Willink?

  but in business and in life.

• 1:17:42Jocko Willink?

  All right. So there's one more little topic that I wanted to bring up and really it's, it's another question that I got at Jocko Live and I got this

• 1:17:56Jocko Willink?

  question or a version of this question a couple of different times.

• 1:18:03Jocko Willink?

  And they all, they all, couple of different versions of this question, but the same question. And the question is, is something like this, something along the lines of, I've been pretty successful at this point in my life.

• 1:18:18Jocko Willink?

  And I'm having trouble finding the motivation to take it to the next level. So, you know, it's like people, I say, oh, so you, you know, you make decent money. Yep. But yeah, we're doing really well and you're working out. Yep. I'm healthy. Yep. I'm good. And your family's taking care of you. Yep. Good time with my family.

• 1:18:42Jocko Willink?

  But you're not able to like, get the extra workout. You're not, you know, you're skipping some days. You're not eating great. You're not making the calls that you need to make. You're not expanding your eyes and that's what's going on, right? And so that's where we're getting at. We get someone that's sort of in a good spot, kind of across the board. Right? Kind of in a good spot across the board. And so I'd kind of establish that fact, that they're in a good spot across the board.

• 1:19:05Jocko Willink?

  And then I'd say, well, it sounds like you're in a good spot across the board. Are you happy with that? And are you comfortable with where you're at?

• 1:19:16Jocko Willink?

  And the answer would be no.

• 1:19:20Jocko Willink?

  And then I'd say, are you sure?

• 1:19:26Jocko Willink?

  And then they'd say, yeah, I'm sure I'm, you know, I want to do more.

• 1:19:32Jocko Willink?

  And then I said,

• 1:19:38Jocko Willink?

  that's a lie.

• 1:19:43Jocko Willink?

  That's a lie. That's a lie. Because if you really weren't happy and you really wanted to improve your health even more, and you really wanted to improve your financial situation more, and you really wanted to just broadly improve your life, then you wouldn't have any problem at all finding the discipline. The discipline would actually find you.

• 1:20:11Jocko Willink?

  That's where I'm at. You want to know why? People go, "You don't sleep very much." You want to know why? Because this one finds me. Because I know I can do more, and I want to do more. And I know I'm not happy where I'm at and comfortable where I'm at. So if you're telling yourself, "No, I'm not happy where you're at," then I'm going to tell you that's actually a lie. You are comfortable. You are comfortable. Because if you weren't comfortable, then it would drive you. The discipline would show up.

• 1:20:43Jocko Willink?

  Now, this is where I kind of have to go a little bit deeper. So what I just said, if you tell yourself the truth,

• 1:20:58Jocko Willink?

  then you'll find discipline. The framework of discipline is the truth.

• 1:21:04Jocko Willink?

  The framework of discipline is the truth. And I have to... And I didn't do a good job, when I got asked this question, I didn't do a good job of connecting all the dots, because it actually is one level deeper.

• 1:21:21Jocko Willink?

  It's one level deeper, and it looks like this. If you're saying that you can't find discipline,

• 1:21:32Jocko Willink?

  and I'm telling you it's because... That's because you are comfortable where you're at?

• 1:21:40Jocko Willink?

  That is also a lie.

• 1:21:45Jocko Willink?

  That is also a lie. Look, telling yourself that you don't need to get out of bed in the morning, telling yourself that you don't really need to work out, or you don't need to go harder, or you don't need to do more in your job, or be more disciplined in the way that you live...

• 1:22:08Jocko Willink?

  If you tell yourself those things, that's actually a lie.

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  Because the fact of the matter is, think about this, the fact of the matter is that you're not comfortable, you're not happy.

• 1:22:28Jocko Willink?

  You're not okay with where you're at because that's why you're asking this question right now.

• 1:22:34Jocko Willink?

  You're asking this question because you know you can do more, you know you can be more, and that's the truth.

• 1:22:44Jocko Willink?

  That's the truth and it eats you up and it makes you ask these questions. Ask the question to me and ask the question to yourself and the answer is the truth.

• 1:22:59Jocko Willink?

  You know it, I know it, we all know it, that the framework of discipline is the truth.

• 1:23:09Jocko Willink?

  If you tell yourself the truth, the real truth, the absolute categorical, unconditional, unabated, unmerciful truth, if you do that, you will find discipline.

• 1:23:28Jocko Willink?

  Discipline equals freedom, discipline is rooted in the truth, the truth will set you free.

• 1:23:39Jocko Willink?

  And what does that calculus work out to? Discipline equals freedom.

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So, Echo Charles. Yes.

• 1:24:01Jocko Willink?

  Seems like we want the truth over here. Yes. So that we can do more and we can be more. Be more, 100%. Is there anything that you know of? That helps reveal the truth to us?

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Yes, jujitsu.

• 1:24:15Jocko Willink?

  The mats never lie. The mats do lie, my friend. No, they do not.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. When you're, when you're, uh, when you make eye contact with that guy who's a little bit better than you, maybe bigger, maybe will give you a scenario where you gotta put out more effort than maybe you want to that day when you make eye contact? And then you like, look away. Everyone sees that. Nobody sees that.

• 1:24:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you mean pre-roll?

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Pre-roll, yes.

• 1:24:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there's like a scenario that could unfold, but we haven't connected.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:44Jocko Willink?

  Eye contact for the roll.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:46Jocko Willink?

  It's like, it's like, uh, avoidance.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  Avoidance. Yeah.

• 1:24:51Jocko Willink?

  Everybody knows.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  That's one of, one of the many attempted lies that we sort of try to, you know, perpetuate in ourselves. Like, oh yeah, like, I'm good, right? That's what people kinda. They wanna be good at jujitsu, I think, you know, on the mats.

• 1:25:10Jocko Willink?

  You know Akbar?

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Sure, of course I do.

• 1:25:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:14Jocko Willink?

  He's really sick jujitsu. And he's super like hard to roll with.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  Just cause he's strong and wiry and athletic and freaking good and doesn't stop.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:24Jocko Willink?

  But I have like an unwritten rule with him. No matter what, 100%, if, if either one of us wants to roll, we roll.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:31Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't matter what's going on. If one of us wants to roll, we roll.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:33Jocko Willink?

  And, and most of the time, he wants to roll, I don't. And I roll with him every time.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, that's how. And, and that kind, I mean, let's face it, that, like you have mixed emotions about those kind of, cause you see him and you're like, cause you have it in your head, like you can't not roll with that person. I have that with Noah. Where if he's there, it's like.

• 1:25:54Jocko Willink?

  It's on.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  It's, and him, he's like, I don't know if, man, he's been kind of working me recently.

• 1:26:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  So it's like, oh man, I see him, I'm like, I know this is gonna be like a hard roll, but I can't not roll with him. Like that would defeat the whole purpose of my existence here right now. If I like, don't roll with him, you know?

• 1:26:10Jocko Willink?

  Roll with Noah for sure. And he's the same way. He's coming at you the whole time.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:14Jocko Willink?

  He's freaking awesome at jujitsu. He's in good shape. He's strong. He's got, he's just got it. He's just gonna bring it.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:21Jocko Willink?

  You just gotta be, you're just like, that's the way it is.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:23Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna roll.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Noah, Akbar, like these guys that it's like, okay. If they weren't here, it'd be, it would be an easier day regardless.

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:26:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but not everyone's like that, you know? And actually, there can be guys who are like even actually better than you, but you roll with them and it's like, it's not this huge like, it's not that like hard of a roll, you know, it's like, there's just different dynamics.

• 1:26:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  But the lie that we can tell ourselves, even though you're the only one you're lying to, everyone, everyone can see what you're doing. When you like do avoid that.

• 1:26:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, now there are situations that unfold, and this is one that I do. So let's say I have an injury.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:27:03Jocko Willink?

  Right? Legitimate injury.

• 1:27:06Jocko Willink?

  I will, let's say a normal day for me is like, okay, I'm gonna do eight rounds. You know, eight six-minute rounds. Cool. That's normal. Like, that's a good roll for me. I had a good time. You know, whatever, it takes an hour, whatever. It's a minute rest.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:27:22Jocko Willink?

  So maybe not, but, but anyways, if I'm, if I'm injured, sometimes I gotta be like, okay, I can only do four rounds. Because then it's just odds.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:33Jocko Willink?

  That I'm gonna re-insure something stupid. And I just, I'm like, hey, what I try to do is tell people beforehand. So that way I'm not being that guy. Like, if you wanna roll with me, now is the time. Cause in four rolls.

• 1:27:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:47Jocko Willink?

  Maybe five.

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Sure, you know.

• 1:27:49Jocko Willink?

  Then I'm gonna, then I'm gonna call it.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:51Jocko Willink?

  So it does happen, and I guess the reason that I'm saying that is just to be like, well, I'm gonna roll no matter what. If you're injured, and like, you know the deal, like, when you're injured, you have, you can, you can, you can get lucky for like three, four rolls and like, okay, I didn't tweak anything, we're good. It didn't get worse.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:28:11Jocko Willink?

  That fourth, fifth roll, now your sixth roll, you're tired, you're giving up, giving up a little bit more, and all of a sudden, that's when you get hurt. So. Just a, just a little tale of caution.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yes, big time. And you know, one, it, you know, it's easy, kinda like when we're just sitting here, you know, not in the situation. It's easy to be like, oh yeah, you just, you just work around the injury. And if you gotta get caught in a submission, that's how, you know.

• 1:28:37Jocko Willink?

  No, it's not a submission that you're gonna get. That's easy. You hope that someone, if you've got a sore elbow, you hope that what hurts you is, oh, someone puts an arm lock and you go, oh, tap early, right? That's what you hope it is. What you don't hope it is, is you're rolling and turning and your arm gets caught in a bad spot and now you re-injure it. There's no tapping from that. That's just another injury.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the, I mean, what I had in my head was like, um, or, you know, your knee, or, or whatever, whatever, rib, whatever. And you're like, I'm just gonna go like, kinda little lighter, you know, right? Exactly. You roll one round, then you roll one round with like Noah or something, go light, no way, man. Um, and it's, you can consciously be going, oh yeah, I'm gonna go light, but start rolling. Yeah, just see how much you can remember to go light when you're, you know, things get competitive, whatever, sure.

• 1:29:25Jocko Willink?

  What do you always say to me? Like when you do a good move to me and you say, uh?

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, your sense of urgency.

• 1:29:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you say, that's a big victory for you. You get my sense of urgency to increase and it's like the biggest W.

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, cuz you're just so good.

• 1:29:37Jocko Willink?

  And you say it to me too.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Well, I don't say that it's a big W, but I do say, I recognize your sense of urgency.

• 1:29:43Jocko Willink?

  A little sense of urgency there, you're all happy.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Anyway, when you're in the moment, whether you can control it fully or not, or whatever, I, I would say you just decrease the chance of you staying safe as time goes on.

• 1:29:59Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  You just, that's just like the numbers.

• 1:30:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep, just odds. The odds are. I made it through four rounds.

• 1:30:07Jocko Willink?

  I'm okay, I'm walking off the mat right now.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Right. So that's like the opposite of a lie. You're like being so, so truthful with yourself. You're like, hey, you know, and you're, and you're doing the right thing. The lie comes when you're like, You're not injured, you're just maybe not feeling up to it. Maybe you're hungover, I don't know. Maybe not you, but you know, a person. And then you say, well, you know, I'm this, or I'm sick, or I'm this, and you say that excuse or whatever to yourself. And then like you avoid the hard rolls.

• 1:30:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I had Wes.

• 1:30:39Jocko Willink?

  Like I was training, I was deep into some rounds. And Wes is, and Wes was on the other mat and he comes over and Wes is a beast too. Like, I mean, he's just strong. It's jiu-jitsu. It's awesome. And every time it's gonna be a gut check. And I'm like, sit up against the wall, I'm done. And he's like, hey, you wanna get one? And I was like. And I, I said, no. You know, I was like, no. And then, and then I was like, bro, and then like 30 seconds went by and I was like, all right, bro. I'm sorry. That's just weak. Like, cause I wasn't done yet. I knew I wasn't done. There's times where I've been like, hey, no, I can't roll. Like I've gotta, I'm, no, I'm done for the night. It's not smart for me to roll. I need to have discipline. More than anything else, right?

• 1:31:23Jocko Willink?

  Cause you know, when you're injured, you're there, it's like, you wanna roll so bad. You feel like a caged animal. Just wanted to get on the mats of justice.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much any time you're there and you're not rolling injured, sick. Working, uh, in my case, you know, filming, whatever. I mean, that's just how, but yeah. But again, that's like the opposite of the lie. Like your, your, your truth is, is very, uh, how should I say? Strong. Like you don't. Like the lie, like hits you hard when you begin to lie to yourself, you know? But some people, they, they can just roll with it, but everyone sees what you're doing. Everybody, you know? Or the guy who's tying his belt every 10 seconds, you know, like, oh, you know, but I see what you're doing. You're trying to perpetuate some lie. But the mats, they don't lie.

• 1:32:16Jocko Willink?

  So that's why.

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  That's why.

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  We think jiu-jitsu is a positive thing.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Sure, I think so.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  It does expose our truth, or maintain our truth.

• 1:32:27Jocko Willink?

  It's a good ecosystem to be in.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  I think so. You gotta be careful, like all ecosystems. But in that ecosystem, this is what we do care about. What kind of gi we have? You see what I'm saying?

• 1:32:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Come on, we all check it out, like, well, what, put it this way.

• 1:32:45Jocko Willink?

  We don't want to be walking around with a second-rate gi that's made in wherever, not here.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes. No, we don't.

• 1:32:53Jocko Willink?

  What do you want your gi to say? Look, I trained jujitsu. I work hard and I support this country and its workers.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:33:03Jocko Willink?

  That's what I want my gi to say.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:05Jocko Willink?

  There's only one gi that says that.

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:07Jocko Willink?

  There's only one gi that says that.

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's the Origin Gi, and I think we all know that, you know? So, yes, the question, what gi do I get when I do jujitsu? When I start jujitsu, when I compete and do jujitsu? You get an Origin Gi.

• 1:33:21Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you get an Origin Rashgar for the no-gi scenarios that unfold. And then, since you can't wear a gi and a rash guard in public, unless you're John Donahue, because he's just representing that rash. Is he still representing the rash guard, super hardcore?

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  As far as I know, but...

• 1:33:40Jocko Willink?

  No, he's definitely so legit. We need to send him some rash guards. Anyways, if you're not John Donahue and you're gonna go out, you don't really want to wear gi pants and a rash guard, you can get other clothing from Origin Maine, such as t-shirts, jeans, sweatshirts, hoodies.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  Hoodies.

• 1:34:02Jocko Willink?

  What were you gonna say?

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  I think sweatshirts and hoodies kind of...

• 1:34:05Jocko Willink?

  Covers it?

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Covers it.

• 1:34:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay, what were you gonna say? Were you gonna say jeans?

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:10Jocko Willink?

  Jeans?

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  Delta 68.

• 1:34:12Jocko Willink?

  Delta 68s.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  Are those out yet?

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  We're working on that.

• 1:34:18Jocko Willink?

  Working on it.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Hey, working on it. Hey, if you're working on it, you're working on it. All good.

• 1:34:21Jocko Willink?

  I actually told Pete, let's, and I don't like to do this, but let's do the pre-order thing. So we can actually get the demand signal because people are demanding the Delta 68s.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Yes, they are.

• 1:34:32Jocko Willink?

  Because I talked them up because they are truly the greatest things I've ever put on my legs.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  Also joggers.

• 1:34:44Jocko Willink?

  Those are not the greatest things I put on my legs, but they're not really for me. I'm not a joggers kind of guy.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Because you don't, well, yeah, I mean, you know, fashionably speaking, uh, yeah, that's not you. Uh, comfort, you know, that's kind of down there on your list of priorities. So I get it.

• 1:34:58Jocko Willink?

  Right now, those are just two things that I'm not really super concerned about. Although oddly enough, the comfort of the Delta 68s is one of the things that makes them very epic.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just like the cherry on top.

• 1:35:11Jocko Willink?

  If you came to Jocko Live, I was wearing Delta 68s. If you see me in public and I'm wearing, uh, jeans, they're Delta 68s.

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  Dig it. There you go. Originmain.com is where, also supplements. These are important supplements. Joints, four-year joints, supplements for your joints. That's important. Try lift. You can be the strongest guy in the world. Your shoulder's not working.

• 1:35:35Jocko Willink?

  Let me ask you this. Is this jacked up? So a guy hit me up on social media and was like, hey, you're old. How do you, you know, how do you maintain? Like, how do you do this? And, you know, I, it's one of those things where I was like, well, do I just tell him like straight up, man? If you're not on joint warfare and krill oil, you're just wrong. Like, step number one, get on joint warfare and krill oil. Seriously. Super krill, joint warfare, that's what you want to do. Now, the thing that I told him also is very consistent, right? I'm, I don't, I'm not one of those guys that takes three weeks off from doing anything and then jumps back into the, to squat. Like, no, I'm working out.

• 1:36:22Jocko Willink?

  For all practical purposes, I'm working out every single day. Now, is there occasions where life gets in the way? Sure. Yep. That's what it's called a day off. That's why I don't take voluntary days off. But I'm telling you, if you want to maintain, like, the activity at a high level, and you're an older person, I mean, I'm only 48. I feel like I'm 21. Or 22, maybe.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Let's say 27, how about that?

• 1:36:55Jocko Willink?

  Sure. But joint warfare and krill oil. Those are the supplements that you're specifically talking about right now. So, I can't recommend them strongly enough. And I should have just told that guy, listen, be consistent, work out, do a good job, warm up, and take krill oil and joint warfare. But then you feel like, oh, I'm just, you know, you know what I mean? Just selling this guy stuff like, bro, this is it. So I actually did him a disservice.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz that's true. When you go like every day and consistent, your body's sorted, you know, for lack of a better way of putting it, in as far as details go, but your body's just used to it. But at the same time, yeah, you know, like your joints are taking a beating if you're pushing hard.

• 1:37:32Jocko Willink?

  Which I am.

• 1:37:33Speaker 01

  Which, yeah, I mean, why wouldn't you push hard? I mean, I guess maybe they're under some circumstance that's okay. But if you're pushing hard, yeah, your joints are gonna be like, kinda taking some of the brunt.

• 1:37:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  You know, so yeah, if your joints can stay in the game, but it's like, yeah.

• 1:37:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, no, more important, if your joints can't stay in the game, you're out of the game.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:37:52Jocko Willink?

  That's the problem.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the one.

• 1:37:54Jocko Willink?

  It's like, hey, you can be big and strong, and your joints don't work, doesn't matter. You're only as strong as your weakest link. Make your weakest link your strongest link. Joint warfare and krill oil.

• 1:38:05Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Discipline Go. Discipline Powder Form. Awesome. If you need a can of a tasty beverage that's actually good for you.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:38:16Jocko Willink?

  Get yourself some Discipline Go. RTD.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Ready to deploy.

• 1:38:23Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:38:23Speaker 01

  Or drink with it.

• 1:38:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we prefer to play over here, I think.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  I understand. Also, milk. Protein in the form of a dessert. Additional protein. I know, we're eating steak. I get it. It's true. It's good. But you want the dessert with some additional protein. Some, uh, to increase and improve your protein synthesis.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  Just got hit to that one. It's like when there's protein. Okay, so I was one of the guys who, uh, who, one of the many of us who, you know what, you know what an anabolic window is?

• 1:38:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like after you work out, you got a certain amount of time you gotta eat within.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta eat the protein and take, take it in, because that's when your body like kinda wants to take it in. If you miss that window, it doesn't take as much in. So apparently, that's not as much of a thing.

• 1:39:12Speaker 01

  From what I'm.

• 1:39:13Jocko Willink?

  Bro-science has been disproven from nineteen ninety-four.

• 1:39:18Jocko Willink?

  There's been controversy in the bro-science world.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  I know, man. Just, just a shift, really. A shift paradigm.

• 1:39:23Jocko Willink?

  A paradigm shift in the bro-science world. So. Interesting. Especially come from someone that has a doctorate in bro-science, Echo Charles.

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  You know, I'm always staying on the.

• 1:39:32Jocko Willink?

  So what is, what is the point?

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  Uh, so.

• 1:39:35Jocko Willink?

  We can drink milk anytime, but it's so beneficial. There's nothing wrong with me having milk at nine forty-eight at night when I'm like, you know what? I want dessert right now. Cool. I'm gonna have some milk.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, basically, yeah. So it's more about the protein rolling around in your system, generally speaking. And, you know, when your body needs protein to rebuild muscle, boom, you got some protein already in there. Whether you take it in twenty minutes after you lift, or if, you know, you're just sort of taking it in throughout the day. There you go.

• 1:40:06Jocko Willink?

  Same thing goes for your children. They can take in protein at any time. They can also take in poison, sugar, but don't give them that. Give them the protein, the good stuff. Or your kid milk. And then get yourself some Jocka White Tea, by the way. Which is, as Echo Charles likes to point out, organic.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  It is certified, certified organic.

• 1:40:25Jocko Willink?

  Hi, I'm Jocko Willink, organic certified tea salesman.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:40:30Jocko Willink?

  Who would have thought? Look, it's not about the organic, it's about having an 8,000 pound deadlift, which is 100% guaranteed.

• 1:40:40Speaker 01

  Double blind placebo.

• 1:40:41Jocko Willink?

  Double blind placebo tested.

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:43Jocko Willink?

  Get some. And by the way, all these items are available right now at the Vitamin Shop. So you probably, hopefully, have a Vitamin Shop near you. You can just go down there and pick up any of these items that you want, which is pretty awesome. Go check it out. By the way, this Friday, February 8th, in San Diego, California, at the Vitamin Shop, we're gonna be there.

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Is that Friday or Saturday?

• 1:41:09Jocko Willink?

  Sorry, Saturday. Saturday, February 8th. Yeah, it's Saturday, February 8th. We're gonna be there, we're gonna be there, it is Saturday. We're gonna be there, we're gonna be there live. Me, you, JP, and Dakota Meyer.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Dak Savage.

• 1:41:26Jocko Willink?

  Dak Savage is actual, will be there. Come on down and hang out. And people are like, will you sign books? Yeah, I'll sign whatever you want. I mean, within reason.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  Within reason.

• 1:41:36Jocko Willink?

  I mean, and by that, I only mean like, I'm not signing, you know, body parts.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  Body parts, yeah. Well, it looks like someone's forehead.

• 1:41:46Jocko Willink?

  Certain body parts I'm not gonna sign.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I dig it. I dig it.

• 1:41:50Jocko Willink?

  So, there you go.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  It's good.

• 1:41:51Jocko Willink?

  Orgemain.com.

• 1:41:52Speaker 01

  Yes, Orgemain.com for all this stuff, good stuff, by the way. Also, Jaco has a store, it's called Jaco Store. That's where you can get the Defcore stuff, the Discipline Equals Freedom stuff.

• 1:42:09Speaker 01

  The good, quote unquote, good stuff. And when I mean stuff, that's t-shirts, hoodies, lightweight and heavy.

• 1:42:17Jocko Willink?

  Rash guards.

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  More Rash Guards, representative of the path directly.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  While you're doing the jujitsu, I saw some people on the podium representing. Recently, oh yeah.

• 1:42:29Jocko Willink?

  On that one.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, way to represent on that one.

• 1:42:31Jocko Willink?

  Appreciate everyone that represents the path.

• 1:42:35Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 1:42:36Jocko Willink?

  And the podcast and the death core.

• 1:42:41Jocko Willink?

  So yeah. Competition.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, big time. Uh, but yeah, our hats on there as well. Cool stuff on there. If you like something, get something, represent while you're on the path. JacoStore.com. Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. We're, we don't know if that's important. Is it important? It's important. It's not not important.

• 1:43:02Jocko Willink?

  Overall, we're saying, yes, it's important.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  So do it.

• 1:43:05Jocko Willink?

  Do it.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  Subscribe.

• 1:43:06Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe.

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  If you want. It's a good, it's beneficial.

• 1:43:09Jocko Willink?

  If you're listening, you should subscribe.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:12Jocko Willink?

  That's my opinion.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:13Jocko Willink?

  Do what you want to show.

• 1:43:14Speaker 01

  On your iTunes.

• 1:43:14Jocko Willink?

  And don't forget that we also have the grounded podcast.

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:17Jocko Willink?

  Where we talk about life, jujitsu. We're looking like we're probably going to make some more of those in the very near future. Warrior Kid Podcast.

• 1:43:27Jocko Willink?

  That is the best podcast that a child could listen to. Am I biased? Maybe. Am I right? Absolutely.

• 1:43:36Jocko Willink?

  And don't forget about Warrior Kid Soap and I am overjoyed to inform you that we have a new soap out

• 1:43:45Jocko Willink?

  from IrishOaksRanch.com. It's got antibacterial, antimicrobial.

• 1:43:53Speaker 01

  Microbial. Almost, good.

• 1:43:55Jocko Willink?

  Well, anyways, it's got really good stuff. If you're dirty, especially dirty in the tense of jujitsu, where you've got little creepy crawlies trying to get into your skin, then you can get something that, that we made, Young Aiden, and it's called Killer Soap. Go to IrishOaksRanch.com so you can get yourself some Killer Soap and.

• 1:44:22Jocko Willink?

  Stay clean.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  Stay clean, of course. Also YouTube channel, we have YouTube channel for the video version of this podcast and some excerpts on there. You don't share these excerpts, go ahead. Do it. If your boss needs to hear this, don't do it like that. I'm just saying if you sort of just, anyway, um, good stuff on there, I think. Enhanced stuff as well. You can see Jaco and his.

• 1:44:47Jocko Willink?

  Things are exploding. Things are catching on fire.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  Sometimes, yeah.

• 1:44:51Jocko Willink?

  Things are cracking open.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes, yeah.

• 1:44:54Jocko Willink?

  In synchronicity, in synchronization with my words.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  Yep, and music, cellos and whatnot.

• 1:45:01Jocko Willink?

  Yes. If you haven't heard Echo's enhanced videos, you may not know it. Echo is a cello enthusiast.

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  I, well, you know.

• 1:45:11Jocko Willink?

  Every time he plays me one of his videos, when the cello kicks in, I give him a look.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  Anyway, videos on there, yes.

• 1:45:19Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe to the YouTube channel. What's it called? Jocko Podcast.

• 1:45:23Speaker 01

  Jocko Podcast, yup, that's the one.

• 1:45:25Jocko Willink?

  We also have something called Psychological Warfare, and I got a great piece of information, a great suggestion from someone. Some trooper out there just made a great suggestion. The suggestion was, when you talk about psychological warfare, you should describe it as a little psychological hitter.

• 1:45:48Jocko Willink?

  As soon as I said it, I was like, you get credit, credit. So yes, if you need a little psychological hitter to help you get over some moment of weakness, well, guess what? We got something for you. It's called Psychological Warfare. It's on iTunes, Google Play, other MP3 platforms. If you need a visual hitter, then go to flipsidecanvas.com where Dakota Meyer, speaking of, is making visual representations of the path that you can hang on your wall, on your ceiling, in your doorway.

• 1:46:22Jocko Willink?

  Keep you on the path. That's what you need to do. Got some books. Leadership Strategy and Tactics, the most recent, the answer to

• 1:46:33Jocko Willink?

  the answer to every leadership question that I've been asked on this podcast that I get asked all the time. So Leadership Strategy and Tactics Field Manual. Everyone that got it, thank you. Made it number one on a bunch of different lists, which was awesome. And I was super stoked. It was especially awesome if you're in the literary ecosystem. Then you go, oh, number one, everyone else doesn't care. So I'm kind of got one foot in that door because there's a bunch of people that I work with that are in the literary world because that's what, that's what it is, right? You read a book, you're in the literary world. Yes. So that ecosystem, so you guys, even though none of you care,

• 1:47:10Jocko Willink?

  you all propelled me to the number one in that ecosystem that anyone that's outside of the literary world doesn't care about.

• 1:47:21Jocko Willink?

  People say, how do you stay humble? Guess what? No one cares about this stuff.

• 1:47:26Jocko Willink?

  That's how. Leadership Strategy and Tactics, got a bunch of kids books, Way of the Warrior Kid, one, two, and three. Mikey and the Dragons for that littler kid, Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 1:47:37Jocko Willink?

  Which people just take pictures of that and just post just a picture of the cover of the book. Which I'm always like, credit. So Leadership Strategy and Tactics is Field Manual 2. The first Field Manual was Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. The audio version of that is on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play, and other MP3 platforms. And then of course, it all started with Extreme Ownership and the Dichotomy of Leadership, which I wrote with my brother Leif Babin about the lessons that we learned in combat and how you can use them in business and life. We got EF Online, which is leadership training online. And what this is, is a supplement.

• 1:48:19Jocko Willink?

  Actually, it doesn't even have to be a supplement. It could be the whole meal. If this is what you can do, and you want leadership training, go to EF Online. If you need it inside your company,

• 1:48:30Jocko Willink?

  inside your business, inside your team, you can contact Echelonfront.com. That's my leadership consultancy. Echelonfront.com. What we do is solve problems through leadership. We got some musters coming up. We got.

• 1:48:46Jocko Willink?

  Well, all the ones that we've done have sold out. The ones that are coming up on deck are Orlando, Florida,

• 1:48:57Jocko Willink?

  Dallas, Texas,

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  Phoenix, Arizona.

• 1:49:00Jocko Willink?

  And Phoenix, Arizona. Go to ExtremeOwnership.com for those. All the events that we've ever done have sold out. So if you want to come, go to ExtremeOwnership.com early so that you can get some. And last thing, we now have EF Overwatch and EF Legion. EF Overwatch aimed at executive leadership, taking folks that were in the military, leaders, senior leaders in the military, and placing them into civilian companies

• 1:49:29Jocko Willink?

  so that they can help that company move forward. That's our executive leadership placement firm. We also have EF Legion, which is frontline troops and frontline leaders. So if you've been in the military, if you're a veteran, and you want to find your next mission, if you're a senior leader, cool, go to EF Overwatch. If you're a junior leader, go to EF Legion.

• 1:49:52Jocko Willink?

  And companies that are looking for junior leaders or executive leaders, you can do the same thing. EFLegion.com or EFOverwatch.com. These are people that understand the principles that we teach and can apply them inside your business. And

• 1:50:08Jocko Willink?

  if you have not heard enough of my exceedingly slow talking and ludicrously serious tone,

• 1:50:19Jocko Willink?

  and you haven't had enough of Echo's marginably, marginally applicable metaphors, if you can't get enough of those two things, well, guess what? You can get more. We are available on the interwebs, on Twitter, Instagram, and on

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  That is a book. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And to final word here, thank you all for listening to the podcast. A podcast that exists thanks to your support. Thanks for listening, spreading the word, telling your friends. Thanks for getting some DEF core or some origin gear, all of which supports this podcast. And of course, thanks to all the service members out there in uniform who protect the very freedoms that make this podcast possible. Also to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, all the first responders.

• 1:51:21Jocko Willink?

  And I saw a bunch of military members, I saw a bunch of first responders at all the Jaco lives and I appreciate you coming out. And I want to say thank you for providing an environment where we can live our lives as we see fit. And to everyone else out there. Remember to tell yourself the truth. Remember to tell yourself the truth. You know what that means. The truth is you need to do more.

• 1:51:59Jocko Willink?

  The truth is you need to be more to reach your fullest maximum capacity and capability as a human being. And if you tell yourself that truth. You will find discipline. And if you find discipline. You will find freedom. So do not lie to yourself. And instead, get out there. And get after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.