#790: Chris Sacca — How to Succeed by Living on Your Own Terms and Getting Into Good Trouble

Chris Sacca is the co-founder of Lowercarbon Capital https://lowercarboncapital.com/ and manages a portfolio of countless startups in energy, industrial materials, and carbon removal. If it's unf**king the planet, he's probably working on it. Previously, Chris founded Lowercase Capital https://lowercasecapital.com/, one of history's most successful funds ever, primarily known for its very early investments in companies like Twitter, Uber, Instagram, Twilio, Docker, Optimizely, Blue Bottle Coffee, and Stripe. But you might just know him as the guy who wore those ridiculous cowboy shirts for a few seasons of Shark Tank. To purchase Chris's ranch, schedule a viewing at FivePondsRanch.com https://www.fivepondsranch.com/. P. S. This episode features a special, one-of-a-kind introduction that Chris recorded of yours truly. :) Sponsors: MUD\WTR https://mudwtr.com/tim energy-boosting coffee alternative—without the jitters: https://MUDWTR.com/Tim https://mudwtr.com/tim (between 15% and 43% off) Helix Sleep https://helixsleep.com/tim premium mattresses: https://HelixSleep.com/Tim https://helixsleep.com/tim (Between 20% and 27% off all mattress orders and two free pillows) AG1 https://drinkag1.com/tim all-in-one nutritional supplement: https://DrinkAG1.com/Tim https://drinkag1.com/tim (1-year supply of Vitamin D (and 5 free AG1 travel packs) with your first subscription purchase.) Timestamps: [00:00] Coming up [06:47] Chris introduces me. [11:07] Some Sacca background. [18:32] Raising pre-teen gamblers and tailgating troublemakers. [19:54] Conscious changes and rethoughts since our first interview. [26:12] The personal and professional influence of Rich and Sarah Barton. [30:18] Property management and the Zen of Kevin Rose. [35:12] Zillow Gone Wild. [36:58] Simplifications. [45:03] Remaining optimistic despite being in the business of saying no. [51:33] Living in the finite without +1 obligations. [56:54] “Wait, what’s hustle culture?” [59:48] The (lack of) trouble with kids today. [01:09:53] Raising kids to solve problems and eschew smartphones. [01:14:15] Rawdogging? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. [01:16:05] An Andy Goldsworthy aside. [01:16:30] Taking advice from R. Buckminster Fuller GPT. [01:19:13] Assigned reading. [01:20:10] Humans vs. AI. [01:26:20] What happens to people stuck between AI job displacement and a broken social contract? [01:42:38] Counting on the human craving to convene and connect. [01:56:30] What kind of business would a younger Chris start today? [02:00:44] The prescience of The Medium is the Massage. [02:01:39] What does Lowercarbon Capital do? [02:08:44] Projects Chris is most excited about. [02:18:59] Youthful mischief and flim-flammery. [02:24:51] The premise for Chris’ upcoming No Permanent Record. [02:35:25] Cultivating the ability to face (and maybe win over) a tough crowd. [02:39:19] Chris expresses some concerns about this episode. [02:40:24] Recommended reading. [02:45:07] A worthwhile purchase of $100 or less. [02:48:03] Deez Crocs. [02:50:48] Sabotaging potential dates with authenticity. [02:59:11] Parting thoughts. * For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Coming up in this episode.

• 0:02Chris Sacca?

  And I need to memorialize these things for the benefit of humanity before we're all obviated. Like these kids who have these incredible GPAs and this test taking, I think it might be useless. I think they might have optimized for useless skills. And I think the only thing that might keep us going is that randomness, that unpredictability, those flaws, those fuck ups, the things that make us banged up, the things where we make bad decisions, where we're self indulgent. I've had to teach our team, the number one thing you can be in this business is unpredictable. Feed into the fact, I am known as mercurial, I burn bridges, I will not hesitate to fucking fight you, I wear the stupid shirts, I don't give a shit about much, I've been known to just light it on fire. And guess what?

• 0:46Chris Sacca?

  People take me seriously as a result. I haven't backed down from all those fucking character flaws I have that are very self-destructive. But I am all gas, no fucking brakes, as you know, although in our line, we call it no gas, no brakes. But we need to cultivate more of that if we have any hope as a fucking species. We just need to, I'm sorry.

• 1:10Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. And my guest today is a repeat guest. Last time he was on in conversation was 2015, so a lot has changed since then. His name is Chris Saka. Chris is the co-founder of Lower Carbon Capital and an accomplished venture investor, company advisor and entrepreneur managing a portfolio of countless technology, communication and consumer product startups through his firm lowercase capital. Oof, that's a sentence. And he actually gave me some disclosure in our conversation. He was worried about this intro because he knew I would be recording this intro after the fact.

• 1:49Tim Ferriss?

  And there are some things not in his official bio, his trading of commodities contracts related to live hogs, which we actually get into, his record-setting number of F bombs in this particular episode. But let me return to the official bio for just a second. Alongside his wife, Crystal, Chris grew lowercase, primarily known for its investments in very early-stage technology companies like Twitter, Uber, Instagram, Twilio, Docker, Optimizely, Blue Bottle Coffee and Stripe into one of history's most successful funds. So there you have it. He's also a hilarious guy, whip smart, mercurial.

• 2:25Tim Ferriss?

  Prone to burning bridges and not at all shy about talking about his slips, flimflams, bamboozling and other character building adventures. In this episode, we get into it later as part of a new project of his where he's hoping to chat with successful entrepreneurs and friends of his about the, I wouldn't say misdeeds, but adventures, getting into hot water, getting out of hot water, talking yourself into things, talking your way out of things for a new project slash podcast called No Permanent Record. So hopefully at some point you'll be able to check that out.

• 3:03Tim Ferriss?

  But first, just a few quick words from our fine podcast sponsors and only maybe 15%, 20% at most of the people who want to be sponsors for the show become sponsors because I personally test and vet everything. So with that said, please enjoy. Coffee, coffee, coffee. Man, do I love a great cup of coffee, sometimes too much. Then I'll have two, three, four, five cups of coffee. I do not love the jitters that come from that or how even one really strong cup of coffee can impact my sleep, which I measure in all sorts of ways, which HRV and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But more recently, I have downshifted to something that feels good. I have been enjoying

• 3:45Tim Ferriss?

  a more serene morning brew from this episode's sponsor Mudwater. With only a fraction of the caffeine found in a cup of coffee, Mudwater gives me all the energy I need without the crash, without the fidgety crawling out of my skin kind of feeling. And it's delicious. It tastes as if cacao and chai had a beautiful love child. I drink it in the morning and sometimes, right now, I'm exercising in the mountains and running around. Sometimes I'll also add some milk and ice for a 2pm, eh, maybe 1pm if I'm behaving, iced latte, pick me up type of thing. Mudwater's original blend contains four different types of mushrooms, lion's mane for focus, cordyceps to promote energy. I used to use that when I was competing in all sorts of sports, and both chaga and reishi to support a healthy immune system.

• 4:28Tim Ferriss?

  I also love that they make and have for a long time donations to support psychedelic therapeutics and research, including organizations like The Heroic Hearts Project, which I encourage people to check out, and the UC Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics. You, my dear listeners, can now try Mudwater with 15% off, plus a free rechargeable frother and free shipping by going to mudwtr.com/tim. Now, listen to the spelling. This is important. That's M U D W T R dot com slash Tim. So, one more time, M U D W T R dot com slash Tim for a free frother, 15% off, and a better morning routine. As many of you know, for the last few years, I've been sleeping on a Midnight Luxe mattress

• 5:13Tim Ferriss?

  from today's sponsor, Helix Sleep. I also have one in the guest bedroom downstairs, and feedback from friends has always been fantastic. Kind of over the top, to be honest. I mean, they frequently say it's the best night of sleep they've had in ages. What kind of mattress is it? What do you do? What's the magic juju? It's something they comment on without any prompting from me whatsoever. I also recently had a chance to test the Helix Sunset Elite in a new guest bedroom, which I sometimes sleep in, and I picked it for its very soft but supportive feel to help with some lower back pain that I've had. The Sunset Elite delivers exceptional comfort while putting the right support in the right spots. It is made with five tailored foam layers, including a base layer with full perimeter zoned lumbar support right where I need it, and middle layers with premium foam and micro

• 5:57Tim Ferriss?

  coils that create a soft contouring feel, which also means if I feel like I want to sleep on my side, I can do that without worrying about other aches and pains I might create. And with a luxurious pillow top for pressure relief, I look forward to nestling into that bed every night that I use it. The best part, of course, is that it helps me wake up feeling fully rested with a back that feels supple instead of stiff. That is the name of the game for me these days. Helix offers a 100-night sleep trial, fast free shipping, and a 15-year warranty. So, check it all out. And you, my dear listeners, can get between 20 and 27% off, plus two free pillows on all mattress orders. So, go to helixsleep.com/tim to check it out.

• 6:40Tim Ferriss?

  That's helixsleep.com/tim. With Helix, better sleep starts now.

• 6:47Chris Sacca?

  You know my host today as the human guinea pig, the sample size of one, and the only clinical trial on two feet. And New York Times bestselling author of The Four Hour Work Week, The Four Hour Body, The Four Hour Chef, and The Four Minute Intimacy Guide. This man has inspired millions to learn Mandarin Chinese in just three hours while doing handstand kegels during their optimal billing cycle. As one of the founders of the life hacking movement, he leads by example and not having checked his emails since the clit administration and outsourcing all of his sneezes and existential crises to Bolivia.

• 7:30Chris Sacca?

  His chart-topping podcast practically gave birth to the manosphere and spawned an entire generation of wannabe pod bros who think dropping references to stoicism makes them philosophical sages as they read undies ads from Mons basement while promoting pseudoscientific creatine enema regimens. If it's cool today, my host blogged about it in the 90s, wrote a 13-point checklist for optimizing it, and has the lab results to prove it. When he's not interviewing world-class performers with pauses so pregnant they wear elastic waistbands,

• 8:10Chris Sacca?

  you can find him meticulously organizing his pharmaceutical-grade kitchen fridge full of blood, urine, and stool samples. And his bathroom cabinet looks like a GNC nutrition store fucked a Japanese vending machine. He is only 14 months away from having supplemented every possible molecular combination from the known periodic table. He has hotboxed with Himalayan monks, ice bathed with Arctic shamans, and achieved ego death with cultures that anthropologists haven't even discovered yet. On four separate continents, there are sacred psychedelic ceremonies that tribes have named after him.

• 8:52Chris Sacca?

  And twice, his meditations have opened portals to another dimension. He's given lectures on Seneca in 27 languages, can ask for warm body oil and CBD cream in 31, and say, "Whoa, brother, we just tripped balls," in 38. I challenge any of you to identify a medieval weapon with which he hasn't competed at the international level. This is a man who enchants the world's most powerful and influential people with the insatiable curiosity of a four-year-old, the energy level of a seven-year-old who just ate three boxes

• 9:30Chris Sacca?

  of M&Ms, and, when texting memes to his friends, the emotional maturity of a 10-year-old. He's already prepared interview questions for future podcasters who have yet to be born. Carbs fear him. To-do lists quake in his presence. His morning routine starts before he goes to sleep, and his gratitude lists kick off by individually thanking each of his gut bacteria. His circadian rhythm is so optimized that he experiences next week's REM sleep during yesterday's power nap. He's had romantic relationships with kettlebells, but we are told he is holding out for a human

• 10:13Chris Sacca?

  lady long-term. The world's most eligible bachelor, who just last week stopped requiring potential dates to submit three years of sleep-tracking data. The man, the myth, the legend, the guy who would absolutely win gold if self-experimentation and self-pleasure were an Olympic sport. It's the one, and thank God for all of us, the only, Tim Ferriss, everyone. Tim Ferriss, Tim Ferriss, everyone.

• 10:43Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half-mile before my hands start to shake. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 10:51Chris Sacca?

  No, this isn't an appropriate time.

• 10:53Tim Ferriss?

  What if I could be out?

• 10:55Chris Sacca?

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 11:08Tim Ferriss?

  Now for people who have not heard the first episode, but maybe they see the headline, which is Chris Sacca on being different and making billions. Would you like to just give a quick snippet of where you grew up? I believe it was somewhere in Connecticut as the scion of a wealthy family. I get that wrong?

• 11:26Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. I grew up in Lockport, New York, a little town on the Erie Canal, just north of Buffalo, a town that is as middle class, working class as it gets. We had a town employer. It was the GM plant where they made radiators and air conditioners for GM cars. Most of my buddies dads worked at the plant and I feel really lucky to have grown up in that kind of place, a safe place, a fun place. I wasn't exposed to any extreme wealth and I also wasn't exposed to any extreme poverty. But at the same time, I also feel lucky to have seen the canary in the coal mine. And what happens when the company, town, factory shuts down and the jobs ship off

• 12:09Chris Sacca?

  to Mexico and the pensions bankrupted? My buddies dads who were retired were suddenly had to work as greeters at Walmart. And before long, we had the largest trailer park in the Northeast. And our town drugs that ultimately became fentanyl in modern times really set in. And there was just a lot of angst and depression. And I watched that town go from reliably Union Democrat to hardcore MAGA. But along the way, really saw the empathetic roots for it. Like, why is this happening? What happens when people lose agency over their lives? When they feel like they can't provide for their kids the way their parents provided for them? When they lose their small businesses and those are replaced by Walmart or Home Depot?

• 12:53Chris Sacca?

  And I feel like that's something that I've really tried to stay in touch with. I know we're not really going to talk about politics. It leaves me with the state of America today never being a surprise. I mean, I was just back in Buffalo this weekend. Go Bills. And nothing about what's happening in America is surprising. I don't love it, but it doesn't shock me. And so I feel really grateful to have grown up there. Now, What it means is by the time I got into this business, I didn't have a network. I didn't know anybody. I didn't even know what money really was. I had to make my own way in everything I did. And I had these incredibly bright and supportive parents who went way out of their way to create opportunities for us and me and my brother. But at the same time, I was an outsider to the kind of stuff we do now for sure. And I still feel like that. You know,

• 13:38Chris Sacca?

  I lived in the valley for a while in Silicon Valley. But as you know, Tim, because you've visited me in various places, I've spent more of my time outside. I live in the Rockies now. I live in Montana before that Wyoming, before that truckie. I really try to stay in places where real people live and work. And our kids go to public school. I would never claim to be fully in touch because my life is ridiculously special. But same time, I feel really lucky the way I grew up going to public schools and being one among many. And I worry that, you know, the kind of people, Tim, you and I know, and the kind of people we work with, aren't those people anymore, you know, and have really lost touch. And you can see it in the decisions they make and the stuff they say. Did we start this out lighthearted enough?

• 14:23Chris Sacca?

  Are we like, do we?

• 14:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I was gonna do some knock knock jokes, but I'm not sure that's an appropriate segue.

• 14:31Chris Sacca?

  I mean, there's other stuff we said in the old episode, like, look, I was really good at school. I went to university for math, starting in seventh grade. I think one thing that I've talked about before, but I will bring up because I see it missing these days is I always had a hustle. I always had a little bit of a side business. I mean, from the time I was six years old, I was going around the neighborhood selling walnuts that I'd poke holes in and call air fresheners or rocks that I had found in a parking lot. I was literally going door to door.

• 14:57Tim Ferriss?

  What was your JT Marlin and Associates?

• 15:00Chris Sacca?

  A hundred percent. I mean, I started trading commodities when I was 13 or 14. I had a pager that had a 45 second delay to the Chicago Board of Trade. Talk about latency. And I was trading live hogs. You know, I just always had a business mowing lawns, washing cars, detailing, a paper route.

• 15:21Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not sure we talked about the live hogs.

• 15:23Chris Sacca?

  Oh, yeah. Somehow we skipped that.

• 15:25Tim Ferriss?

  How did you even get into commodities?

• 15:27Chris Sacca?

  I'll tell you, my dad's best friend ran basically a construction and equipment rental business that I have talked to you about.

• 15:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 15:33Chris Sacca?

  Where it was a gritty ass job. You know, my mom and dad believed in the sweet and sour. Yeah, exactly. So it was just grind it out, work your ass off in a real job job. And my boss there, who was my dad's best friend, you know, he was under strict instructions from my dad to just kick our asses and make us appreciate everything we had and hopefully go on to work our asses off in school and maybe, you know, not have to do a job like that someday. A lot of my coworkers were on parole and it was a tough dead end situation. But that guy had a commodities account on a computer up in the attic of the building I worked in. And he said, come here, you probably know what the hell is going on with this stuff. I didn't.

• 16:15Chris Sacca?

  But he showed it to me. I went to the library. I started learning about stochastics, about charts and technical analysis. Then I was reading about seasonality of, you know, literally frozen orange juice concentrate like trading places and cocoa and coffee and oil. And I identified what I thought was a pattern anomaly in live hogs. And he had this deal with me. He said, look, I've got like $3,000 in this account. You make a trade, take a week. I want you to think about it. You make a trade. If you make money, we'll split the upside. If you lose money, I'll cover it. By the way, that's called venture capital.

• 16:55Tim Ferriss?

  That's a

• 16:57Chris Sacca?

  So I went all in. I read everything. I studied everything. I looked at these charts. And imagine charts on like a low res green monitor, right?

• 17:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, like war games style.

• 17:08Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. And I had this pager and I'm like trying to go to school and also monitor my quotes on my, I think it was called a Quotron pager. And eventually I placed this trade and two weeks later I cashed out and I netted $171 for myself.

• 17:25Tim Ferriss?

  Nice.

• 17:26Chris Sacca?

  And I just remember thinking downstairs, I'm making four twenty-five an hour. Upstairs, I just made a hundred and seventy-one dollars by pushing a button and using my brain. I was like, I want to be the guy who works upstairs. And I can't tell you how seminal that experience was for me. And the rest of my life, like, there's only so far you can lever a man hour. Bob Hoz was that guy's name. I feel incredibly indebted to him for that kind of exposure, you know? And the rich dad, poor dad world. My mom and dad weren't, you know, they didn't own stocks. They weren't really investors like that. They had a rental property once, but Bob Hoz was kind of like my rich dad, a guy who got me exposed to capital markets.

• 18:06Tim Ferriss?

  Amazing. Life hugs.

• 18:08Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, I mean, but I also had hustles like I, in high school, I ran a card room, you know? I started one in junior high, but by the time I was in high school, I ran a full-on card room. I paid off a teacher, rest in peace, Mr. Maine, he was on the rake. And so we were always hustling. I was selling blow pops with my buddy Hawkeye. We ran a little sports book.

• 18:27Tim Ferriss?

  Hawkeye, did he give himself that nickname?

• 18:30Chris Sacca?

  No, no, no, that was given to him at his birth. Actually, I just, I was just at the Bills game, all my high school buddies. And I turn around, I'm talking to some other people, I had some family, I turn around and I see my daughters, who were thirteen, eleven and nine, playing beer pong with my high school buddies. We'd been deep in the tailgate with Pinto Ron. If anyone follows the Bills, the girls were eating bacon off of Pinto Ron's car and making pizza with Pizza Pete, who cooks pizza in the file cabinet, literally, go Google that. Pinto Ron and Pizza Pete are absolute legends. It only happens in Buffalo. But then the girls are actually playing beer pong with my high school degenerate buddies. And they're like, is this okay? And I was like, I, it's better than okay. Now, they weren't slamming beers, they were slamming sodas, but I was just like,

• 19:14Chris Sacca?

  I feel like these skills aren't taught to children anymore. And it was funny, our thirteen-year-old, when they're like, hey, Cece, come jump in the game. She's like, all right, but I haven't played this in a while. And my buddies all piss themselves, like, in a while? You're thirteen, this is amazing. And our kids were talking shit, placing side bets, you know, a little bit of gambling. I feel like we've got a generation of kids who's lost that edge completely. And so, again, I feel very lucky to have grown up in a place where I had opportunities to. You know, commit small misdemeanors and you know, I had more than one detention. I definitely appeared before the principals on many occasions, you know, just some light mischief.

• 19:53Tim Ferriss?

  We're going to come back to that. So is there anything though, from our last conversation that you would revise or that you think was missing, given your last 10 years of life?

• 20:03Chris Sacca?

  Did anything jump out at you?

• 20:05Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think so. Nothing jumped out tremendously. I mean, I think that the kernel of who you and I are has remained remarkably intact, hopefully for better.

• 20:17Chris Sacca?

  Yeah.

• 20:18Tim Ferriss?

  And I, at the same time, recognize that you've had a lot of life changes. You've had a lot of professional changes. So there are probably, maybe not some revisions, but addendums at the very least. And you sent me, to your own description, the world's longest text message about what we might chat about, which was very helpful. And my response was, in addition to all of this, because they were great topics, we're going to touch on a bunch of them, the lessons that Chris Sacca has learned, right, since last time. And I was leading with the, I suppose, precautionary note of avoiding a lot of politics. But what comes up for you, just as a human, as a man, as a parent, as a husband, anything?

• 21:03Chris Sacca?

  I'll tell you what was interesting about re-listening to that, was I actually felt a lot of pressure because I was like, shit, I don't have a lot of new material. We used to just roll tape, right? Like you would just hit record. The sound quality on that is abysmal. There's seagulls going in the background. There's people partying down below. You and I are maxing out mics in the red zone. Like you couldn't hear shit. But back then, there wasn't like an industry of professional podcast guests.

• 21:32Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 21:33Chris Sacca?

  You know, those conversations weren't optimized for like what? Is going to be the pithy takeaway quote, what's going to be the title card of this one?

• 21:40Tim Ferriss?

  All right. The Oprah moment where I get you to cry and then make a thumbnail out of you with a red arrow pointing at your face?

• 21:46Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, I'm good at that shit. If we have a few minutes, I'm, I am actually authentic and vulnerable. But you know what I don't have? Like, no one's written the Naval almanac of shit that Chris Saka says, right? And so that guy's intimidating. Like, he's brilliant and he's got, and he reduces everything to 80 characters. You're like, fuck, that's true. I don't know if that guy just sits up in a cave on a mountain side and you gotta hike up to see Naval these days. So I listened to these episodes where I'm like, okay, this is a real conversation where I am happy to bear my soul. I am accountable to an audience of me, my wife and my kids, and that's it. So I will just say what I really want to say. You asked me last time, what changed between 30 and 40? And I talked a lot about reorienting myself around, because you

• 22:31Chris Sacca?

  also asked, who is someone I looked up to and a mentor, etc. And I would say right now, I have few, if zero of them, because I started to realize, and I started to touch upon this last time, and it's only become truer. Anytime I put somebody on a pedestal, I realize it holds them to a universal purity test across everything. You know, I gave the example of Bill Gates in the last one. I was like, I just had dinner with him and Melinda. And so, yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 23:03Tim Ferriss?

  And so change, just change my name on there and said to Chris's idol and mentor.

• 23:08Chris Sacca?

  So, well, I'd already put mine as Tim's idol. And so I left out the mentor part. But obviously, Bill Gates is amazing in so many regards, and he's also a fucking disaster in so many regards. And so if I were to say like, he's an idol and a mentor, it implies this, like, I've taken all of it. And I think if there's anything that's a scourge in today's society, it's these purity tests. It's this like, you have to be perfect in all regards, or we toss you out. And I am going to be political for a second. That is one of the major flaws of the Democratic Party, is you either sign up to everything they believe in, or fuck you, you're out. And the Republican Party has been like, hey, choose from this menu. Anything here, bro?

• 23:50Chris Sacca?

  High five. Let's go. And I think that's one of the things is that people to the left have just made us each other feel bad and have held each other these impossible fucking standards that don't allow for growth, that don't allow for imperfections, that don't even allow for just the wabi-sabi of a human experience. And so I've really tried to demystify putting people on a pedestal and instead looking to people for examples of one aspect of a life. I mean, I will say like, I really look up to Rich and Sarah Barton. So Rich founded Expedia, Zillow. Crystal and I look up to them as a family, as parents, as business people and entrepreneurs. And they're ahead of us on the kid game. So their

• 24:35Chris Sacca?

  kids are in college and, you know, our kids are in middle school. And so I would say I kind of do look at them as the total package a bit.

• 24:42Tim Ferriss?

  What about them? I've spent some time with Rich. Amazing human being. What about them specifically jumps out to you? Like, what is it that you'd like to emulate or that you think is rare or that you'd like to model? Anything?

• 24:56Chris Sacca?

  I think the biggest danger of raising kids with privileges is that they turn out to be assholes.

• 25:00Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 25:01Chris Sacca?

  You press the fucking red, you know, mute button, like the end of the Oscar speech, anytime I say it. But Donald Trump is an example of what happens when someone is raised without anyone ever saying no to them. Okay. Like, no matter how you vote, we can agree, no one has ever said fucking no to that guy. And that's what you get. But the richer you get, the temptation is to raise your kids in a way that they're surrounded by people who are like, aye aye, you know? And increasingly, Elon Musk is what you get when no one says no to you. And you've been exposed to lots of people who've been very successful. And once they see that you're on that ride, it's very easy to be surrounded only by sycophants who are there to say yes to every idea out of self and opportunistic interest. And so

• 25:46Chris Sacca?

  I think that happens when you're raising kids who are lucky enough to not stay in Motel 6s or ride in the seating group E on Southwest. And so I love the kids that Rich and Sarah have raised. How collegial, how balanced, how hardworking, while also unapologetically bright they are, how different they are from each other, but how driven they still are. I love Rich and Sarah as a couple. I think they balance working their faces off with also having a good time. And so, you know, I've had deeply introspective, reflective conversations about work with them. I mean, frankly, they were the ones who convinced me and Crystal to

• 26:27Chris Sacca?

  get back to work and start lower carbon when we were very pleasantly enjoying not working full time. And there are some days when we curse Rich and Sarah as a result.

• 26:36Tim Ferriss?

  How did they convince you to do that? What was the logic behind it? Or what did they see that led them to stage an intervention?

• 26:45Chris Sacca?

  They just said, you are uniquely positioned to do it, and you need to do it for the planet. And we were like, begrudgingly, yes. I'm telling you, there are definitely days where Rich and Sarah Barton are a bad word in our house because I'm like, fuck, fuck Rich. Like, he is probably fucking skiing right now, and I'm dealing with some horse shit. Or I've been staring at Montana out the window and have not slept from this fucking computer today. The Barton's actually wrote out their family creed, I guess I would say. I'm not going to give any insight into what's in there, but they wrote out like, what does it mean to be a Barton? And like, that exercise alone is so

• 27:25Chris Sacca?

  powerful. And as Crystal and I started writing that for ourselves, wow, nobody ever really takes that time to like, what do we stand for? If we were gone tomorrow, what would we want our kids to take away from who we were, how we got here? You know, there's this amazing data on how the children of people who are rich, but when those parents grew up, middle class or poor, those kids end up all right. But their children are fucked. No, I mean, there's like actual sociological data on this. Like, because we can teach our kids about spending, about saving, and thrift, and hard work, etc. But they don't have the empirical basis for it. It's a learned

• 28:05Chris Sacca?

  lesson. Yep. So they have no real deep root in their DNA for passing it along. So we've tried to codify it a little bit.

• 28:13Tim Ferriss?

  What does that look like? How long is it?

• 28:16Chris Sacca?

  Like 18 pages.

• 28:18Tim Ferriss?

  18 pages? What kind of stuff did you try to cover?

• 28:21Chris Sacca?

  Ultimately, the kids will be in there. The kids will be part of the conversation. Crystal spent Six years writing biographies of my grandmother before she passed at age 94, and then her parents. Her parents are two of the most fascinating people who've ever walked the planet. I mean, I think it's, we'll just say that they spent over 40 years each in the service of the government in various roles, known and unknown, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the biographies she wrote were great. They cannot be published because they would have to go through certain agencies for stuff to be cleared. But incredible public servants, two of the most honorable people I've ever known. I met them when I was 18 years old. You know, Crystal and I were besties starting at age 18. I asked her out and she friendzoned

• 29:04Chris Sacca?

  me for 14 years. But my grandmother's biography was interesting. My grandmother, from the Midwest, lived most of her life in Omaha, Nebraska, and had this real quotidian wonder and beauty and treasure to her life. Mom of seven, a volunteer, she worked in prison, she was the leader of a national organization of Catholics, schoolteacher. But here was this woman who's a leader of a national organization of Catholics. And one of the things she put in her biography that Crystal did was, I think it's really important that men and women live together before they get married, because I think divorce is a much bigger problem than premarital sex.

• 29:45Chris Sacca?

  I think she was 92 when she said that. As a leader of a Catholic organization, I really just think she did an incredible service. I loved hearing her prioritization, like, hey, here's what the creed says, here's what the doctrine says, et cetera. But here's the reality. I would rather see a family to make sure that parents are compatible and a family stay together for their lifetimes than deal with the breakups, et cetera. Like, it was really incredible. So, we cover everything in there. How we would like to communicate, how Crystal and I think about making up after a fight, how we think about making decisions. We put stuff in there that's almost therapeutic, like, hey, when we first made a lot of money, we bought a bunch of houses for everyone in our family. We thought that was an incredible

• 30:27Chris Sacca?

  way to thank them and paid off mortgages and stuff and moved parents out from the East Coast to California. And then we soon realized, shit, we're property managers. The shit we own owns us. Like, that's all we fucking do.

• 30:42Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know if we talked about this last conversation, probably not, but you texted me at some point and you were like, if a raccoon dies in the HVAC, is Eric Schmidt getting these texts? Like, what the fuck?

• 30:54Chris Sacca?

  Dude, Eric Schmidt's team reached out yesterday to update like his email address. And I wrote back to them, hey, team, do you think we could do a check in? Just, I'm just curious how the flow is working around Eric's email, his calls, his travel. Like, I just kind of want to know. And they're kind of like, what? And I'm like, yeah, no, I like Eric's cool, give him my best. But I kind of want to talk to you guys about like, what flows up to Eric? What doesn't like, how was he handle this shit right now? I'm constantly interviewing people about that because there's finite amount of time in this space and the shit you own does own you. You know, every single object at some point has commanded some of your attention. One of our close friends lost everything this week.

• 31:37Chris Sacca?

  Shit, it's Kevin Rose because he's talked about it out loud. But, you know, I said, it's totally devastating. But if there was one person I know who will actually end up teaching us something from this, it's Kevin. Kevin is this guy who loves stuff, but is also untethered to it. It's this weird duality he has where he is zen as fuck, while also loving a good pair of sneakers and a great like, dude, check out this fucking watch. His watch is melted into a puddle and he's like, whoops. And Kevin was like, you know what I miss? I miss the drawings for my kids and I miss the box my dad made me. And I'm really hoping I can learn from him, you know?

• 32:22Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. It's cataclysmic and I'm not trying to diminish it at all. And like folks in Palisades, most of them can take care of the next steps. Folks in Altadena, I'm way more worried about. But I have realized like shit gets complicated really fast. You think you want all this shit. And so I spend most of my time trying to get rid of it or downsize it. Speaking of Tim, I could have bought an ad slot, but there is an incredible ranch for sale in Jackson, Wyoming right now in Wilson.

• 32:52Chris Sacca?

  Two contiguous lots, a main house on some lakes, a ranch house. You'll find it. It's just south of Wilson off of Fall Creek Road. Hey, hey.

• 33:01Chris Sacca?

  Take a look, everybody. You got your crypto gains with a Z that you need to shelter. You know, there's no state tax, no state tax in Wyoming. The skiing's great. Abundant wildlife. I'm just saying, I'm just saying.

• 33:13Tim Ferriss?

  People think that Chris is joking about an ad slot, but you actually did text me to ask me how much it would cost.

• 33:22Chris Sacca?

  I didn't realize you were going to invite me on the pod later, but I was very close to buying an ad. I'm like, I'm like, okay. Who is actually doing well in this market and has some gains to shelter? It's the crypto investors, bro. That shit is up. And so you want to take a little money off the table? I'm just saying, those California taxes.

• 33:42Tim Ferriss?

  So coming back to Kevin for a sec, I mean, he is remarkable in so many respects. They've known him forever. And one is, I do think Kevin does a great job of working hard, playing hard. But that's not really a dignified enough way to put it. Like he savors life. He enjoys the stuff, but he's very unattached to it. And I can't say that for a lot of people sort of in our circles. I'm not sure I could say that for the vast majority, like they do get attached. So I'm curious for you, last time we spoke, you had just appeared as a cover story for the Midas issue of Forbes and you've done a lot since.

• 34:26Tim Ferriss?

  What has become more and less important? And I suppose a better way of asking that is like, what have you simplified? What are ways that you have tried to simplify?

• 34:35Chris Sacca?

  Do you remember that line in The Jerk and Steve Martin's The Jerk where he's walking out of the house? You know, he's losing his money and he's been rich and he's like, I don't need any of this. Except this ashtray. And he just starts picking up stuff until his arms are bundled as he's walking out of his house. Like, I don't need any of this at all. Like, I think that's the perfectly opposite of Kevin Rose where you're just like, I don't need any of these trappings of wealth, except this car. And this watch is really nice. And god damn, those shoes were like limited release. Sorry. So I missed the question because I was trying to think of Steve Martin.

• 35:12Tim Ferriss?

  So since we last spoke, 2015, you were sort of still, I mean, not to say you aren't anymore, but certainly in a steep ascent at that point, doing a lot of stuff, meeting a lot of people. Getting the toys and I'm just wondering how you have thought about simplifying or have simplified?

• 35:35Chris Sacca?

  I've never did the toys thing.

• 35:37Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, you like real estate.

• 35:39Chris Sacca?

  I was just gonna say Zillow is my not safe for work situation. When that Saturday Night Live skit came out, I was like looking over my shoulder like which writer has been watching me. I probably put more product suggestions and feedback into Zillow because Rich is one of my close friends than anyone who doesn't work there. I notice things about that app that no one else there does. I spend way too much time. By the way, I think it's a weird missed opportunity that Zillow doesn't have a social network attached to it. And so I think there should be a comment section. I think you should be able to build playlists of Zillow houses. It's a missed opportunity. I'm just throwing it out there. Just saying, wouldn't it be cool to have a playlist of houses like generated by the community? And so

• 36:17Tim Ferriss?

  I don't even know what that means. What does that mean? It's just like real estate porn that flashes for you in front of you.

• 36:23Chris Sacca?

  So there are blogs that do this, that like keep track of the cool houses. I love, is it Zillow Gone Wild? That Twitter account is amazing. That finds the craziest shit happening on Zillow. But I think like it'd be cool to just be like, look, 10 places I would love to live someday or 15 best places where you could shoot a scene in a 1970s adult film.

• 36:43Tim Ferriss?

  Makes me think that you've thought about this.

• 36:45Chris Sacca?

  Favorite locations from the Big Lebowski or best examples of mid-century modern architecture or something like that. And so

• 36:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, okay. I got it.

• 36:54Chris Sacca?

  I think there's a missed opportunity for influencers to build stuff, feature it.

• 36:58Tim Ferriss?

  Simplification.

• 37:00Chris Sacca?

  But real estate is my

• 37:01Tim Ferriss?

  Real estate.

• 37:01Chris Sacca?

  Soft spot. Yeah. Part of it is I'm a recluse and I think you know that. Amy Schumer once wrote an essay since the last time we spoke. It was about being an introvert who makes a living on stage. And I lit up and was like, I feel seen. You know me, Tim. My ideal social situation is Danish sized, like four, six feels huge. I love getting four great buddies together for a weekend and interacting with no other human beings. And so I like space. So I like to live in places that are out of the mix where I can be very specific and opt into my social interactions because they drain me.

• 37:46Chris Sacca?

  What happens is I don't like being in big groups or around lots of people. So I get there and I overcompensate by being loud and boisterous and amazing and like or larger than life. But really what I'm doing, it's like cranking your iPhone screen up to a hundred percent. I'm just draining my battery and I need that time to recover. So I've loved creating spaces for myself to be alone. And so I think that's an absolute vice.

• 38:11Tim Ferriss?

  And then have you divested yourself of things, relationships, things you used to prize heavily that you no longer value heavily?

• 38:19Chris Sacca?

  Tim, have you heard of Jackson Hole, Wyoming? Because there's a ranch for sale just south of the city that would fit that theme. There's abundant wildlife. There's moose and elk and you can see bears. It's really incredible. Fishing, it's on the Orbis' first blue ribbon certified fishing property. I'm just saying, yes, the first thing we sold was hard to sell. You know, people still think about us living in Truckee, but we haven't been in Truckee since 2011. That was the first thing Chris and I bought together and to let go of that was weird and disorienting. But since then, yeah, I've gotten pretty good at selling and letting go and realizing and more importantly, not buying.

• 39:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's like having premarital abode before the messy divorce.

• 39:06Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, exactly. That's a really good way of putting it.

• 39:12Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take advantage of this exclusive offer for you, my dear podcast listeners, a free one year supply of liquid vitamin D plus five travel packs

• 39:55Tim Ferriss?

  with your subscription. Simply go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's the number one, drinkag1.com/tim for a free one year supply of liquid vitamin D plus five travel packs with your first subscription purchase. Learn more at drinkag1.com/tim.

• 40:17Chris Sacca?

  You always ask people their favorite books, etc. Like, one is Morgan's The Psychology of Money.

• 40:22Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, Morgan Housel. Yeah, great book.

• 40:24Chris Sacca?

  That echoes a lot of refrains, but a lot of that, like The Millionaire Next Door, that kind of stuff, like, all of them are just like, look, the way you get rich is by not spending it in the first place. And so what Crystal and I have started to realize is it's not the check you write, it's the fucking time you spend. We were just about to build a house and we realized, oh, God, do you know how many decisions that is? And it turns out, if you ask me about something, I am gonna have an opinion.

• 40:55Tim Ferriss?

  Shocker.

• 40:56Chris Sacca?

  If you just make it, if you just make it, I wouldn't have noticed, but like, when we renovated a house in LA, they're like, hey, how do you want this wood to meet that wood to meet that wood? Like, you assholes. I never would have seen it, but now that I've seen it, I'm gonna sketch it for you. And so we're gonna, there's gonna be an eighth inch of tolerance, we're gonna have a holdback, and there's, it's gonna, and like, now I'm tortured by those details. And Crystal is even more of a detail and design and, you know, and flow person than I am. But what we start to realize is like, those projects that we buy and build, they're jobs. And so I think that number one area where we try to lighten stuff up is let's not take

• 41:36Chris Sacca?

  that project on in the first place. You know, we bought a piece of land recently, an incredible setting, we've always had on the list. We finally found the place, we started to sketch it out, we were working with the right architects. Our nephew, Mike, is an architect at Biarca Engels Group, one of the greats, and he was helping us out and really, really loved it. And then we took a step back and we're like, this is gonna be a job for the next couple of years, or can we just Airbnb it? And literally, as part of that, I wrote to our travel agent, can you show me 15 places within the same realm as this that we could rent and just show up with our bags, have a great week, and then fucking leave and never think about? I was like, if you

• 42:19Chris Sacca?

  do this, you're about to save me two years of my life and many, many dollars. And it worked. I was like thrilled.

• 42:25Tim Ferriss?

  So, many questions. So, let's just say, no super fancy cars that I'm aware of. You might have some UTVs, but. You have plenty of beavers to keep you company. Last time I checked, although that might be a past hobby. And then the real estate question for you. So if all of that vanished, right? It burned down or otherwise was just removed. How much of that would you repurchase?

• 42:48Chris Sacca?

  Can I just say our now nine year old, when she was eight, she's our hippie kid who's like always on mushrooms.

• 42:56Tim Ferriss?

  Not literally, but.

• 42:56Chris Sacca?

  No, not literally. Sorry. We don't feed our kids mushrooms yet. But no, she's just our kid who we just end up writing down so many of the things that come out of her mouth. She's just untethered by reality. She's the one who, when we moved to Jackson, we signed up for this Teton Science School. It was like an expeditionary learning academy. And we toured the school. And then after a couple of weeks there, we checked out on the other girls. They were doing like traditional school and tiny classes with some outdoor learning. But we went to Center Skies preschool kindergarten situation. And we were like, hey, to the teacher, like, when you guys start doing like, I don't know, the math or the writing? And she's like, oh, there'll be no math here. Like, what? She's like, this is a forest preschool.

• 43:39Chris Sacca?

  Other than when the kids come in and write their names, that's it. The rest is just play based. And we're like, wait, what? And so we ended up watching some videos on these Swedish forest schools. And we're like, I mean, what do we got to lose? Right? It turns out that kid is so exceptionally resilient and capable of being bored. None of the three kids get bored. But I go for a hike every day. And she'll say, when she was like four, she said to me, can I come with you? And I'm like, it's dark and it's starting to hail. And she's like, Dad, that's just ice falling from the sky. And I was like, all right, suit up. And we spent two hours of numb fingers, throwing shit in the river and digging in the mud and having a blast. You know, and she's an academic superstar.

• 44:23Chris Sacca?

  Like, it didn't hold her back at all. But I really love that skill set. Anyway, it's a long way of saying, she once said to Crystal and I last year, she said, Mom, Dad, someday if we're lucky, maybe we can live in a smaller house.

• 44:42Chris Sacca?

  I mean, we were wrecked. Like, we were just...

• 44:50Chris Sacca?

  If I can answer your question anyway, it's that, you know?

• 44:54Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 44:54Chris Sacca?

  Like, we live in a house now that has a lot of perks and features, and maybe there... We could do without them.

• 45:00Tim Ferriss?

  Sharks with lasers, downsized.

• 45:03Chris Sacca?

  Dude, you've got a new project.

• 45:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 45:05Chris Sacca?

  It's about no, but what was the actual title? The working title, working title is...

• 45:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the working title is The Book of No.

• 45:11Chris Sacca?

  Okay.

• 45:11Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm excited about that.

• 45:13Chris Sacca?

  I say no for a living. And I think one of the challenges is like, how to stay an optimistic, open-minded person when you say no all day.

• 45:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, what's your take on that? Because a popular position would be, you have to say yes to everything when you're building, and then you have to learn to say no. I don't know if I totally subscribe to that. At least, I've done a lot of writing on this. And I think that if you look at a lot of examples of mega-successful people, and there's a survivorship bias, so who the fuck knows what's actually causal in some level? But a lot of them get good at focusing early. And by virtue of definition, focus means saying no to a lot of things outside of that focus. What's your take?

• 45:56Chris Sacca?

  First of all, in investing in anything, I think one of the big traps is being too thematic, like, having a thesis ahead of time. I've watched people write, like, the canonical blog post on the shared economy. Then people come pitch them shared economy deals, which makes their blog posts feel writer and writer, and that confirmation bias causes them to light money on fire. And then their fund goes away, and they're like, but my blog post was awesome. And so, I have this big rule at Lower Carbon about never actually having a thesis written in stone. We are very big on electrification of the economy, lithium. We have a way of extracting lithium that's 10,000 times faster.

• 46:37Tim Ferriss?

  So, Chris, let's pause for a second. So, we have not explained, because it didn't exist at the time, what lower carbon capital is.

• 46:44Chris Sacca?

  Okay, let me go back to just saying no then, because it's important, because you're writing a book about it. So, my point is, is if I have too many rules about saying no, then I'm gonna say it to the wrong shit. I'm gonna turn down the wrong stuff. I'm gonna have too much predisposition. So, what I have to know ahead of time, the work I have to do ahead of time... Is to know, as we were just talking about with the houses, what's the actual cost? What's the actual downside risk? So what is the actual cost to saying yes to this? So if the cost of saying yes is I end up at a three hour dinner party that's boring, that's actually pretty low cost. I'd prefer not to blow three hours, like hanging out with some lame people.

• 47:31Chris Sacca?

  But I would prefer not to blow a night, you know? Yeah. But on the other hand, that's pretty low cost. Whereas saying yes to a meeting that I have to fly to, well, that's a whole fucking disruption to my world. I am not going to see my kids or wife and I gotta fucking pack some stuff and transport, all that shit, you know? I mean, Paul Graham, a long time ago, used to talk about the true cost of a cup of coffee. You know, like, what does it actually take to stop your day and go meet somebody and let them pick your brain and all that bullshit? So I just talked about the real cost of building something. Everyone thinks about the cost of building a house is the amount of money you put into it. That's real.

• 48:10Chris Sacca?

  At the same time, it's the amount of time and crazy bullshit and like shit breaks all the time that you put into it. So I think for me, it's doing the work ahead of time to understand what are my actual priorities? What really matters to me? And what's the true cost of those things? So when you come to me with a proposal and invitation, I can assess like, am I gonna just risk 50 grand here? And like, that's my total downside? Okay, what's 50 grand worth to me? What can I? Oh God, I was almost quoting Jay-Z right there. Can you please remind me? Whereas if what you're talking to me is like, hey, Chris, I want to start a project, I want you to join my board, etc. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's the real cost of that? You know? It's easy to say yes to that, but what's the real cost?

• 48:53Chris Sacca?

  And then I think the second part is just getting comfortable with the fact that this is gonna be uncomfortable for a minute, but I'm just gonna say no, bro. I appreciate you. How do I let you know that you're my homie? And I deeply appreciate and respect you and I'm flattered by the invitation, but we're not going down that path. And that can be really tough. You know, I think everyone can attach themselves to the dramatic narrative of God, my thing would be awesome, even more awesome if Tim Tim were on it. You know, if Tim Ferriss is attached, God damn, I'm going places. But they're not you. They don't know what your scorecard is. They don't know what your actual to do list says. We've said many, many times, and I wasn't the first person to say it, but your inbox is a to do list to which anyone else can add an action item. So you're the only one who sees your to do list.

• 49:36Chris Sacca?

  I love all these questions where you ask people like, what's your daily routine? And then every single time like, that is someone who doesn't have anyone in their house attending elementary school.

• 49:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, there's truth to that. Yeah, for sure.

• 49:48Chris Sacca?

  Last night, we had a kid with an ear infection sleeping in our bed. Two nights ago, I had a kid puking out the side of the car as we drove home from the Bills game because I had stuffed her full of pizza and other bullshit. I love these people like, this is when I peacefully do this shit. And I'm like, oh, this is when I fucking wipe asses. I love all those. I know somebody writes out their intentions and then hand stitches them together at the beginning of the day.

• 50:11Chris Sacca?

  God bless, God bless. I'm not mocking, I'm just saying like, I think the no is like feeling comfortable. And by the way, as we grow up, I mean, one of the things Crystal and I find with employees is I think younger managers are too slow to fire employees. Employees who cost too much. It's never the financial cost. It's literally like when we make a decision on somebody, it's not like what their salary is or what their benefits cost is. It's just, are they creating more work than they're eating, than they're consuming? Are they creating more administrative overhead? Somebody else once said, if we have to talk about an employee three times in bed,

• 50:53Chris Sacca?

  it was a local entrepreneur I met here in Bozeman, a guy whose pickleball court doubles as a gun range. And so just amazing, amazing dude. And he said, he and his wife are small business people retired now, but they said they had a rule. If they had to talk about someone they worked with three times in bed while falling asleep at night, they were gone from that org. That was the true cost of that person. And so I think younger people are sometimes afraid to have those uncomfortable moments. It's easier to live with a status quo than just be like, sorry, it's not happening. We gotta go because they're afraid of the loss, but the real loss is all that fucking time along the way. So, all right, that's my diatribe on no's.

• 51:33Tim Ferriss?

  Well, hold on a sec. So now the three hour dinner.

• 51:37Tim Ferriss?

  I imagine you get dozens of these invitations. So you, you wouldn't be able to say, I imagine, yes to all of them. So how do you choose not the big things to say yes to? We could talk about that too. But the inbound that you say yes to that are along the lines of the three hour dinner? Cause you still have finite time, finite dinners. And if you do a dinner with a group of 10 people, that's also away from your family presumably, right?

• 52:01Chris Sacca?

  I'll tell you, I'm the asshole who's like, I would infinitely rather host and control the situation. You've been to our events. There's no automatic plus ones unless the other person is independently awesome. That's a real thing. We have deeply offended people. Even at our wedding, we're like, sorry, no, never met your wife. I bet you she's great, but I need to know. No, this is going to sound ruthless as fuck. And somebody in the comments will be like, this guy's a fucking sociopath. But here's the thing. I don't want to have to have a seating chart. I want to know that whoever's here can sit next to anyone else and be enthralled by how interesting that person is, no matter what they do for a living. And so you've been to our events before where we gather 30 incredible people for a weekend, or we host a party. And I just know whoever you

• 52:44Chris Sacca?

  are talking to is independently great. In whatever field, I've seen many of them end up as guests on your podcast. I love when people end up on each other's boards, or do a collaborative art project together, or performance, because that's what I'm vouching for. If I'm gathering people, I'm vouching for every single person there as being awesome. And so I don't know if everyone else has that standard. And if I'm getting up in front of an audience, I want to make sure that hopefully I'm delivering the aggregate value of all the time people just took out of their day to be there. I don't get nervous about giving speeches, but I feel like I want to bring my A game. So I was saying, I felt the pressure of like, oh my God, what if some fucking kid is home taking notes

• 53:27Chris Sacca?

  about this episode? What are they going to actually write down? Oh my God, I need pithier quotes. But the reality is I want to make sure I'm delivering something of value. And I don't know if everyone else lives by that standard. And I do like to live like I'm running out of time, you know?

• 53:42Tim Ferriss?

  We're all running out of time.

• 53:43Chris Sacca?

  My best friend Teddy Ryan Gold, who you knew well, he died at 46. One of the all time great people. Yeah. I feel like I've gotten three years of bonus time past him, you know? And I don't take it for granted. I mean, I get all the scans and I did treat my body like a rental car for many years, but.

• 54:02Chris Sacca?

  At the same time, you asked me like, what's changed since I was 30 or 40? Like, I am way less patient. It's harder to work for me as a result.

• 54:11Tim Ferriss?

  And for people who don't know Chris, well, you didn't really start off that patient to begin with.

• 54:17Chris Sacca?

  No, like, it's funny, like, we, we had this thing at work recently where I wanted to promote somebody. We hired somebody junior who we could just realize very soon was like a 5X employee, somewhere between 5 and 10X. You know those kinds of people where you're like, wait, they're just different. And so Chris and I are like, we should promote her. And our partner was like, okay, well, her review is coming up. And Chris and I are like, no, no, no, no, we should promote her by Friday. And we're like, well, there's, and I was like, do you want to tell her? Are we going to tell her today? You know, and it's just like, why would we wait? She's fucking amazing. She knows it. It's so weird that it would just hang in the ether in an email account somewhere. In the meantime, that we haven't told her she's that fucking great and that we give her a new title

• 55:01Chris Sacca?

  and get her fucking going. But she's just that great. I just have no fucking time for that. Like that idea I told you about over the weekend where we were talking to our team and I was like, okay, I appreciate all your input, but we're fucking doing it. And they're like, okay, Q1, Q2. And I'm like, no, Q Friday.

• 55:19Chris Sacca?

  It's just write it up. What are we talking about here? And so I'm just like, we are men of action. You know, lies do not become us, but like, I'm just like, I have no fucking time for that. And so I worry, I worry, it's way too easy to let this stuff slip away.

• 55:35Tim Ferriss?

  Is that a pending tangible sense of mortality? Or is there something else to it? Or is it just getting old and cantankerous?

• 55:43Chris Sacca?

  Tim, does any of the shit you've built? I mean, you built it yourself, literally. I would say the same for me, right? And so no one's ever going to call me an entrepreneur though, but I built all this from scratch, right? With Crystal. But like, if I don't do it, it doesn't fucking happen. If I don't move it, it doesn't fucking happen. I tried resting for a little bit. I was horrible at it. And so.

• 56:07Chris Sacca?

  I regret being 70 hours a week employed again. This sucks, but at the same time, like I was awful at not doing much. If I don't move it and if I have a business idea, I gotta do it before anyone else fucking picks up on it before the fast followers come. I want to just be out there with whatever my anomalous advantage is, I want to go press that. You remember when I was trying to convince people that Twitter was a real business for years and then I finally was like, all right, I'm no longer here to convince you, just sell me your fucking stock. I just wasted so much time not buying it all and then eventually bought it all. But I don't want to like convince people to do something. I want to go own it all first.

• 56:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Chris Sacca?

  And then convince them to buy it from me. So we have the world's only dedicated nuclear fusion fund. And so we had been dabbling in fusion investment for a while. People poo-pooed it.

• 56:54Tim Ferriss?

  Do you want to take a second to explain what lower carbon capital is? And then I'm going to come back to that kid taking notes because I have a question for that kid, but do you want to just give a quick backgrounder?

• 57:03Chris Sacca?

  Oh, by the way, I got yelled at for calling people in their twenties kids.

• 57:07Tim Ferriss?

  What? They should be so flattered.

• 57:10Chris Sacca?

  And my 360 review on my org, we had a kid who started harassing me in my inbox when he was like 19 from college. We hired him directly out of graduation. His name was Harsh Dubey. Amazing name. Harsh Dubey is one of the hardest working, most insightful young people I've ever fucking worked with. He worked with us for a couple of years and then he went and joined one of our portfolio companies. As you know, the guy is a legend. He is welcome back to lower carbon any day. We'll explain lower carbon in a second, but I once referred to Harsh Dubey on a podcast as a kid. I was like, we had this kid, he came, he was sending me all these ideas. We hired him, God, he executes, he's amazing. And then later, an employee, not Harsh Dubey, but another employee was like, hey, you can't refer to people in their twenties as kids. And I'm like, God fucking damn it. I can't do anything right.

• 57:55Chris Sacca?

  By the way, that was in the same six months that I was accused of promoting hustle culture. And Crystal and I are like, what's, wait, what's hustle culture? Like I really felt I'd fucked up and they're like, you know, this whole thing about like, you know, the work never sleeps and sometimes shit blows up on a Sunday and so you gotta get your laptop out no matter where you are and like, you know, if you're going to be a partner to an entrepreneur. You gotta just feel like you're an owner too and be available for them no matter what else is going on. And we're like, yeah, and like, yeah, and we're like, and wait, where's the accusation part? Oh, that was it? Oh, fuck you. Yes, that's exactly what we do. That's exactly, this is hustle culture. What the fuck? Like, I don't have accessories posters on the wall.

• 58:38Tim Ferriss?

  But just hang in there.

• 58:40Chris Sacca?

  But at the same time, for fuck's sake, you know, and we haven't asked anyone. Crystal slept under her desk, literally slept under her desk, missed every wedding for 10 years. I haven't asked that of anyone. I had no fucking life outside of Spadera and Google. I can see the direct correlation between the entrepreneurial risk we took and the hours we put in and what we got. I don't think there's a way to shortcut that. I don't think you have to like work yourself to a state of unhealthiness anymore. But I also think you can't fucking phone this in and I'm sick of apologizing for it.

• 59:13Tim Ferriss?

  All right, no more apologies. You gotta stop your apologizing and we're gonna come back to the fusion fund and lower carbon. But for the kid who's taken notes, I would be very curious to know because those who may not be familiar.

• 59:24Chris Sacca?

  Wait, wait, wait, is this?

• 59:26Tim Ferriss?

  Hold on, hold on.

• 59:27Chris Sacca?

  No, this is a good place to insert the commercial break for like the self-help therapy app or whatever. Like after Chris goes on a rant about how you have to work yourself to the fucking bone until you're on the teetering on the edge of a nervous breakdown.

• 59:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, throw in a sponsorship ad for the.

• 59:41Chris Sacca?

  This is Tim taking a quick break to let you know that you gotta take care of your mental health.

• 59:48Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So the question for the kid who may be listening to you for the first time is like, wow, that guy has a lot of energy and sounds very impatient. I can't wait to work for him. But also is like, well, he also did college math when he was seven and was trading live hogs when he was a fetus. And fuck, like I can't emulate this guy. If you were to teach a seminar, could be. College, high school, doesn't really matter, just like entrepreneurship. What could you teach? What would you teach? That is not dependent on the hardwiring of a Saka specimen.

• 1:00:22Chris Sacca?

  I told you what I'm working on next. And I hate that I don't have like a URL or deliverable to announce because this podcast came up really quickly. But I feel like there is a massive cultural hole. My working title has been no permanent record. So Tim, you and I are of the same generation where our teachers, our parents would be like, that's going to go on your permanent record. Like you fuck up, that's going to go on your permanent record. Tim, I was 19 years old before I realized that document didn't exist. I swear, I thought something had followed me from George Sutherland Elementary School to North Park Middle School to Lockport High School to Georgetown University.

• 1:01:00Tim Ferriss?

  Like Santa Claus.

• 1:01:01Chris Sacca?

  Yes, I felt like there was a document that had been hand delivered over there and they're like, oh, oh, did you really do that in gym class? Jesus.

• 1:01:10Chris Sacca?

  And so, I mean, people talk all the time about how we were the last feral generation, the last kids allowed to free range. You know, Crystal and I showed the young adults who work for us, I won't say the kids, the young professionals who work for us, we showed them that PSA that used to play on television that said, um, it's 10 o'clock, do you know where your children are?

• 1:01:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:33Chris Sacca?

  And people were like, where would the children be? And we're like, that was it. We were out. We were just fucking gone. Oftentimes your parents are like, get the fuck out of the house and don't come back. And what the TV was basically telling your parents was, before you have one more gimlet and get all fucking wasted, maybe do a bed check. See if anyone made it home. Like, so we would leave the house without water. How the fuck did we survive without water, Tim? Like, kids these days can't go anywhere without a fucking water bottle. Like, we would maybe find a garden hose somewhere. We had no fucking snacks. And so. We would just go like we had no fucking Band-Aids or Neosporin. We just like would fucking rub

• 1:02:12Chris Sacca?

  a little dirt in it when we wiped out. No helmets. We were a disaster. At least once each of us was propositioned to get into a van for some candy. And so it was the wild fucking west, Tim, but we learned to be resilient and resourceful. And I worry about it. And along the way, Tim, we learned how to tell stories. We learned how to convince our friends because there are no parents there. Hey, let's go do my idea. No, let's go do my idea. We'd negotiate, right? We would talk our way into situations. We would talk our way out of situations. I recently was back at my alma mater and we were being honored. Crystal and I were back there being feted and being interviewed in front of

• 1:02:52Chris Sacca?

  the student body. And first thing I covered was cheers to all you fucking nerds. Your test scores and grades are so great that Crystal and I wouldn't even get in here now. So I love that you're applauding all our accomplishments, but we wouldn't make it right now because you're all so fucking smart. But I said, Hey, how many of you here have ever gotten in trouble? How many of you here have ever had to talk your way out of a situation with the cops? One black kid raised his hand and I was like, you have every fucking systemic reason for doing that. Yes, I agree. But I was like, how many of you have ever snuck into something? How many of you have ever like committed the mildest crime? Have you vandalized anything? How many of you have ever actually scammed someone or even been scammed? Have you ever been on the wrong side of a flim flam? How many of you have

• 1:03:37Chris Sacca?

  placed a bet on sports? How many of you have played cards? How many of you have been blackout drunk? How many of you have had a regrettable hookup? And so I just kept going down. How many of you have worked a tipping job? How many of you have had a fucking horrible boss who is incredibly, you know, aggressive with his language, right? None of them. None of them. And I was just like, I'm sorry, Dean, but this is why you're also fucking useless to us. It's like you've done none of the things that actually inform the kind of work we do. So you know what I'm seeing right now? It's like, we actually have.

• 1:04:15Chris Sacca?

  Across our portfolio and across our team, there are some really hard workers. I don't think you can paint in the broadest strokes around who's willing to work hard and who's not. We have some really fucking hard workers. And so it's easy to always like get off my lawn and the next generation and like these kids don't want to work. There are definitely some fucking lifestyle kids and bless them, but we have some really fucking hard workers. I've just started noticing things like, well, they can't tell when somebody's lying to them. Literally, we have a generation of young people who cannot tell when they're being bullshitted. Because mom and dad were helicopter and snowplow parenting for them. And so now when somebody is literally staring them in the face and lying to them, I'm like, wait, you're believing that shit? Holy shit, you're fucking what?

• 1:05:00Chris Sacca?

  Oh my God, because they've never been in a situation where somebody was taking advantage of them. They've never had to bluff their way out with some cards.

• 1:05:06Tim Ferriss?

  How do you fix that other than sending them to Stranger Things Reality Camp 1980s theme park?

• 1:05:12Chris Sacca?

  You know what's crazy? My way in on the H1B visa just to get political again, which the is like.

• 1:05:17Tim Ferriss?

  Going to play elevator music as soon as you say this.

• 1:05:20Chris Sacca?

  The people who know this shit, the people who know this shit are either the American kids who grew up broke as fuck. Or the kids from India and China who grew up hustling, scrapping, basically not only fending for themselves in school, but also helping run their mom and dad's restaurant or store and taking care of a kid along the way. And having to fend for themselves in a market. You know, I worry like most of the investors and entrepreneurs I know in their twenties right now would get eaten alive in a bazaar. Just eaten alive, like tears might happen. You know, whereas Crystal, my wife, who grew up in India, it's a fucking sport for her. It's almost uncomfortable.

• 1:06:00Chris Sacca?

  I'm like, we once had a big fight in Morocco because I'm like, you are arguing with this man over seven cents right now. And she's like, yeah, but if I don't, he's going to be disrespected and I'm going to be disrespected. So fuck this and like, I'm going to walk away again. I'm like, it's seven, it's one zero, we gotta go. And she's like, fuck that, we're in this shit. Like, if you don't have the fucking stones to stay in this conversation, get the fuck out of here. I miss that alpha. I worry that we just don't have people who are put in a position where they had to fight and fend for themselves. And they're fucking brilliant, man. But they've never had to take any risks. They've never had to mix it up. They've never been in a fight. I'm not encouraging people to go beat the shit out of each other, but they've never been in a fight.

• 1:06:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, no, I get it. So is there anything to be done? Like, is there anything to? Counteract this nefarious slippage into impotence and oversensitivity?

• 1:06:50Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, take your fucking phone and throw it in the bin. I'm a Jonathan Haidt disciple, but like the phones are killing everybody, parents included. I am a wealthy, happily married, got everything I need, almost 50 year old white dude. And when I get on Instagram, I feel so much fucking FOMO. My life feels so inadequate. I'm like, Jesus, look at that guy. Oh, fuck, where are they? They're having so much fun. Shit, that guy's so much fitter than me right now. Fuck. And it makes me unhappy. And so maybe me and 13 year old girls have a lot in

• 1:07:21Tim Ferriss?

  You left out technologists too, right? As you put it, I think in your text to me, your fingerprints are on the weapon.

• 1:07:28Chris Sacca?

  Oh, my fingerprints are on that. Yeah, I mean, it's like the gloves do fit. And so like, you cannot acquit. We reinvented cigarettes, fentanyl laced cigarettes when we started social media with all the best intentions. But it's a fucking disaster. I mean, dude, you know this, when I quit Twitter in November of 2022, I lost 11 pounds in six weeks with no lifestyle changes. I had just been eating the cortisol of my mentions for years. Frog boiling, you know, in 2006, it was all nice and shit. By 2022, everything I was saying was either being responded to by activist shitheads or Russian shitheads. And you can't tell the difference

• 1:08:13Chris Sacca?

  anymore. The Russians are so good at imitating the liberal elite college shitheads that it was just a wave of hate, no matter what. Fuck you parting your hair on the right side. The Nazis used to part their hair on the right side, you piece of shit. Once I went off Twitter and went off Instagram, oh my God, did I feel lightness in my life. So here's what I would do. My seminar, I would stomp on everyone's phones. Then we would go to a bar, but like a dirty bar. And I would tell people to try and start a political conversation and not get their ass kicked. And so bring them to a bar here in Montana, a cowboy bar, and just be like, I want you to advocate for the IRA.

• 1:08:55Chris Sacca?

  And see if you can get out of here without being punched. So come to cattle country and oil and gas country. And let's talk about green politics and see if you can get out of here. Let's see if you can actually tell a fucking story. Let's see if you can show any empathy and put yourself in the shoes of the other person. One of the things that made Clay, our partner who runs lower carbon with us so effective, was he had to go door to door in Ohio, Republican Ohio, on behalf of a guy named Barack Hussein Obama and convince people to vote for the guy. Like the same shit I did in Elko, Nevada, where I am going to a place that where John Kerry got 11% of the vote. And I'm knocking on trailers and saying like, hey, I'm here to talk to you about the election. Most of those people, if their gun was closer within reach, would have pulled it out

• 1:09:40Chris Sacca?

  and told me to get off their fucking porch. But I have to learn how to put myself in their shoes and try and get a conversation going. And so I think no one sells shit anymore. No one has to walk up to their neighbor's door and sell shit. You know, one of the things my kids had to do was convince the neighbors, can we cut across your lawn to get into the other neighborhood where the kids are? They had a negotiated deal. It's one batch of cookies per year. And so I was like, you gotta go figure that shit out because otherwise it's a long fucking bike ride for you. And so you gotta go out there and convince them that you are not going to damage their lawn. But if they let you cross that lawn, it'd be a very patriotic thing to do. But you know, like, I feel lucky. You come to Bozeman, you know, there's 150 bikes out in front of the school with no locks on them.

• 1:10:24Chris Sacca?

  And it's a free range town. And the kids come home and we're like, so what went on? And they talk about the conflicts they had with their friends and how they settled those, how they figured shit out, how they dealt with people when they go downtown. You know, friends come up from LA and they marvel at like, our kids will be hanging out one spot. And the kids will be like, hey, can we go to the bookstore? And we're like, yeah, scram. And so they'll go to the bookstore and handle themselves. And our friends are like, wait, what the fuck was that? I'm like, well, they're going to the bookstore. Six months ago, we were in LA and we were all getting our haircut. The kids were like, they finished first and like, hey, can we go to the bookstore? They're nerds, so they like to read books. They don't have phones. And we said, sure. And the lady who was cutting our hair was like, well, no, no, no, no, they can't go. What do you mean? The bookstore is literally on the same street we're on, five blocks away.

• 1:11:08Chris Sacca?

  And she's like, no, you're going to get ticketed. Like, what? And like, well, yeah, the cops will ticket you as the parents for letting your kids go down there. And we're like, what in the actual fuck? And they're like, well, the then 12 year old is fine and probably the 10 year old, but definitely not the eight year old. You can't have an eight year old walking around. And I was just like, fuck everything. And now, Tim, I'm old as shit, but I see the linkage between that and the learned helplessness, between the lack of resourcefulness, between not knowing how to solve a problem. And so much of company building is dealing with people, dealing with people unlike you is solving those problems. So I would make people, if I'm teaching a seminar right now, I am making those people go hang out with people very unlike them. We have everyone on our team,

• 1:11:52Chris Sacca?

  a bunch of fucking hippie climate investors come to a ranch, a cattle ranch and hang out with people who raise methane for a living. I mean, they raise cattle that we eat, but our team sees them as methane burpers. And so we see them as people who put food on the plate and stewards of the land. And they're very easy to underestimate as like, well, they're just growing cattle and cattle burp shit all, you know? And so, but they are absolute stewards of the land. But nobody fucking hangs out with anyone unlike them anymore. Nobody's forced to have any community. It's funny, Phil Jackson voiced over a documentary about small town basketball in Montana. I think it was called Class C. And he said, the important part about classy basketball in Montana is it's a place where the entire

• 1:12:33Chris Sacca?

  town in winter can get together somewhere warm that isn't a church and isn't a bar. And the reality is, we just don't have these places where we get together anymore. Life is increasingly isolated. You know, like, what is it? 73% of restaurant food is delivered now? By the way, my fingerprints are on that one, too. I mean, we fucked it all up, dude. I'm definitely going to help.

• 1:12:56Tim Ferriss?

  You mentioned something in passing that your kids don't have any phones. How did you manage that? Because I would suspect that a lot of their friends have phones.

• 1:13:04Chris Sacca?

  Some of them do. We live in Bozeman on purpose. A lot of kids don't. They're outdoor kids. They're don't get bored kids. They're make your own fun kids. And so they don't want them.

• 1:13:15Tim Ferriss?

  So is it fair to say they're opt in because a lot of their friends do not have phones?

• 1:13:20Chris Sacca?

  I think they're opt in because they see how fucked up a lot of their friends who have phones are. How fucking sad they are. How at 10, 11, 12, 13, they don't eat right. How obsessed with fucking makeup they are and just how they stay up late. They don't sleep right. They don't do well in school. They're fucking panicked at all times. And our kids have a piece that I think they're very self-aware that they don't want that shit in their life. We have like a family computer that's in a public space where the screen faces out. And like YouTube has some insanely cool shit on it, right? And so YouTube also has these rabbit holes that you can get stuck in. So it's not like they don't know how to use a computer and like they're blown away by chat GPT. But I think at the same time, I think we were the last of the analog kids.

• 1:14:06Chris Sacca?

  We were the last who had to be conscious about what we were actually taking a picture of. Thought about it and then waited and had some patience for it to develop. We were the last generation that had to raw dog.

• 1:14:18Tim Ferriss?

  Not sure what context you're using that in.

• 1:14:20Chris Sacca?

  Dude, there's an American dialect society that chose that or something. I forget their name, but they chose that as the word of the year. Raw dogging. Have you heard of this trend? Like raw dogging an airplane flight?

• 1:14:30Tim Ferriss?

  You and I may have different use cases for this. What does this mean?

• 1:14:32Chris Sacca?

  Wait, this is your, this is your follower base, man. I know what you're referring to, but raw dogging the airplane flight is when you just sit there in the seat and you just look straight ahead. No headphones, no in-flight movie, no book, no phone. You just stare straight ahead for the flight. That is raw dogging the flight, man.

• 1:14:54Chris Sacca?

  Crystal's dad is in his eighties. He can come sit on a chair in our yard and just look at the woods for four hours. He can just raw dog the woods, man. Like, can you do that? Could you do that now? You meditate a lot. Could you just fucking stare at the woods? Not on any shrooms or anything?

• 1:15:11Tim Ferriss?

  With the woods, I gotta say, I've been cultivating that for a while now. So I think I could do it with certain natural scenes. On an airplane? Probably not. I would need some enhancement for that.

• 1:15:23Chris Sacca?

  Right? I invite your listeners to leave in the comments their actual authentic raw dog experiences, the safer work ones, but like, what setting and how long have you been able to sit phone free, book free, art free, pencil free? I mean, you might even say I'm holding a pencil. Like, we've lost touch with the analog arts, man. I have a manual typewriter behind me. That's not for show. I use it all the time. I'm a physical collage artist and then I make wood and string art. You know, I got a rock drill. I told you about that. I was covered in fucking rock dust recently.

• 1:15:53Tim Ferriss?

  String art? What do your string art pieces look like?

• 1:15:56Chris Sacca?

  I weave twine and cotton and then I integrate that into rocks and wood.

• 1:16:01Tim Ferriss?

  Cool.

• 1:16:03Chris Sacca?

  But we don't make analog shit anymore, man.

• 1:16:05Tim Ferriss?

  Have you seen, side note, Andy Goldsworthy?

• 1:16:08Chris Sacca?

  No, he's been a big influence on me. So you can go ahead and summarize what he does. But he integrates nature out of art and art into nature.

• 1:16:16Tim Ferriss?

  It's hard to believe some of his art was created using the materials that are put in the descriptions. I suggest everybody get a few of his books. They're incredible. There are also, I think, two documentaries made about Andy Goldsworthy that I'd recommend people check out. I'm going to drag us back to that kid with the notebook for a second. So within the seminar, you've stomped on the phones, you've taken them to some bars, maybe you've taken them to a bazaar. So there's a lot of kind of The Apprentice-type vetting happening.

• 1:16:46Chris Sacca?

  Oh, my God, Tim, Tim, Tim.

• 1:16:50Tim Ferriss?

  Pull the fucking knife out.

• 1:16:51Chris Sacca?

  Just fuck with you.

• 1:16:54Tim Ferriss?

  What? So what, what's?

• 1:16:56Chris Sacca?

  No, no. Hold on. I don't have an airsickness bag near my...

• 1:17:01Tim Ferriss?

  So if you had a curriculum for reading, like a syllabus for reading, what would be mandatory reading for that class? Entrepreneurship, broadly speaking.

• 1:17:12Chris Sacca?

  I am starting to...

• 1:17:15Chris Sacca?

  Rediscover the greatness of Gen X. I think we were taught to believe that we Gen Xers were a bunch of fucking ne'er do wells and losers. And guess what? We are, but that's what makes us great. And so I am convinced that we were the last of the fuckups and all these other kids like actually do have a permanent record now. Like, there actually is this thing that follows them forever. And so I've been really loving diving into, like, I love reading Chuck Closeman. And so, like, just diving into how messy the 90s were. I love talking to ChatGPT. My wife finds it weird. And so, like, if I go on a walk, sometimes I'm listening to an audiobook or a podcast, but a lot of times I'm just

• 1:18:00Chris Sacca?

  talking to chat. Chad, by the way. And Chad has different names. If I'm talking about medical shit, it's Dr. Chaddius M.D. If it's like my accountant, you know, it's Chad Geppetto, CFA. What else do we have? But there's a few, but I will, I'll tell it, hey, you're this person. And I'll have it remind me, like, I'll get sentimental and nostalgic with it. But I'll have it be a foil. I also, by the way, talked to it as, when you brought up mentors, like Buckminster Fuller, still a huge influence on me. You and I permanently ruined the market for his book, I Seem to Be a Verb. When we mentioned on your podcast, immediately started pricing at $1,000. And I don't think that price has ever really recovered. I think it's still a few hundred dollars to pick up a book, a copy of that.

• 1:18:45Chris Sacca?

  But Buckminster Fuller's personal life was not ideal. He would not be considered to have been a great husband. But I recently had to make a big, recently, six, eight months ago, I had to make a big business organizational decision. And I said, hey, Chad, you are Buckminster Fuller. Let's have this conversation. I want to know, like, the advice you would give me. That was fucking illuminating. And so I think we don't do that enough. What else would I read?

• 1:19:15Tim Ferriss?

  Or a sign to the class.

• 1:19:17Chris Sacca?

  Or a sign. Yeah. I probably read more poetry than most people. Like, but particularly, like Billy Collins. I listen to the stories of Garrison Keillor, like, old ones. I think we've all lost touch with storytelling. I am a big fan of the Moth podcast.

• 1:19:34Tim Ferriss?

  Huge fan. Yeah.

• 1:19:36Chris Sacca?

  You know, I really like the author Kelly Corrigan. I've gotten to know her recently.

• 1:19:41Tim Ferriss?

  Don't know the name.

• 1:19:42Chris Sacca?

  You're not in her demographic. She writes like middle aged woman dealing with reality kind of stuff. I cry. It's out of my realm. And so it's like a way to touch base with people who aren't like me dealing with really human challenges. I try to read books about rabble rousers, like what was the John Perry Barlow book, American Night Wolf or something like that. And I met him a couple of times at Ted, had no idea, but that guy was a crazy person. And so, Tim, I really do think that a lot of the magic of life is in our unpredictability. There was this guy who is Estonian genius, but he went to a big poker tournament. I mean, there was millions of dollars at stake and he played very unpredictably in ways

• 1:20:27Chris Sacca?

  that traditional players could not read into him. Because no matter what they saw on his face, they didn't know what that equated to. I mean, the guy would stay in on the two seven, which is an unplayable hand, but they're like, fuck, wait, you weren't representing the two seven. And he smoked everyone. By the way, he had a big ass beard. So they called him Gamble Door. So good. But I think he cleared like eight million bucks and then disappeared. Nobody fucking knows where he is. But like, the thing we haven't talked about yet is AI.

• 1:20:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:20:55Chris Sacca?

  And I have strong feelings.

• 1:20:57Tim Ferriss?

  Let's get into it.

• 1:20:59Chris Sacca?

  And I think the last bastion of humanity is going to be in the random unpredictable messiness of humans. The rough fucking edges that make no sense. The things that feel like errors and bugs are actually the self preservation aspects of who we are. That the things that make other people feel like they don't compute, it's all we've got fucking left. I mean, look. I don't know what our kids are supposed to go to school for right now. I genuinely don't. Our daughter Circa Luna, who's a fucking really smart and fun and amazing kid. She had to write an eight-page paper for science recently.

• 1:21:42Chris Sacca?

  And I loved watching her. I think writing is important, learning to organize your thoughts and advocate for yourself and cite your sources. But at the same time, I just typed the topic into ChatGPT and it was done in 15 seconds. And it was better than her sixth grade shit, you know? And so, God bless sixth grade, but what the fuck? Like, you're not going to interview for a job with this shit. So what are we teaching the kids? Like, I love, our kids are in advanced math. They're smart. They're good at math, but I mean, come on.

• 1:22:08Tim Ferriss?

  Is that so they know how to get the crossbow trajectories right later?

• 1:22:12Chris Sacca?

  Pretty much, yeah. They can shoot, like manual and firearms. They can also whittle, start fires, make arrowheads. They can handle themselves. You know, Cece is 13 now, Cece 11, and she asked me for some help with her math. And I looked at it. I was like, oh, God, I haven't done this in 20-plus years. Holy shit. Or probably 30-plus years, actually. I was like, oh, my God. So I took a picture with ChatGPT and was like, help me pretend I know what the fuck I'm doing with this. I just took a picture of her homework and it showed me the whole thing, walked me through it. And I was like, uh, here. Oh, yeah, I remember how to do this now. And then like, oh, yeah, your answer's right. And I saved the day and I didn't look like a total fucking idiot yet. But would you send your kid right now to coding class?

• 1:22:58Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think so.

• 1:23:00Chris Sacca?

  I think other than most computer science, like the highest level of computer science, almost all of the rest of coding is fucking useless. Now, you and I can go to ChatGPT and be like, hey, I want to do, I want to build an app that does this, this, and this. And give me the code and it spits out the code. And then I've literally said, hey, by the way, I haven't coded since basic. What do I do with this? And it's like, oh, no problem. Go here, download this, open this Python thing and then shove it in here and then do this. And it just talks you through it. And now it'll be agentic, like an agent's going to do all that for you. You just don't need to fucking do it anymore. And so would you send your kid to law school?

• 1:23:35Tim Ferriss?

  No, definitely not. No.

• 1:23:37Chris Sacca?

  Oh dude, we have fewer lawyers at our firm now than we did a year ago. It's just fucking great. And I can tell it, hey, you know what? Great job. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. Like, hey, you know what? I forgot to tell you, we have all the leverage. Oh, in this case, actually do this. Hey, add this. Hey, write out the Exhibit A schedule of services, which usually takes a couple hours. And like, dude, it's just so fucking good. Would you teach your kid accounting? Accounts receivable, accounts payable, like bookkeeping right now?

• 1:24:07Tim Ferriss?

  So what would you teach your kids?

• 1:24:10Chris Sacca?

  Would you have your kids write marketing copy? Would you train them to write like any news other than writing for the very top newspapers?

• 1:24:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, no, probably not.

• 1:24:21Chris Sacca?

  Dude, go down the list of fucking skills, man.

• 1:24:23Tim Ferriss?

  So what's left?

• 1:24:25Chris Sacca?

  Here's my grand theory. We are super fucked. That's your title card, Chris Sacca colon. We are super fucked, but spell it with two O's, by the way. S O O. But no, here's the thing. I am not worried about the AGI thing. I love all these ivory towers, smart people. And by the way, I do get invited to the Kabbalah meetings. It's kind of funny, like the Illuminati do meet and I'm in the room with all the heads of those companies and they're brilliant. And the discussions are important discussions around bioweapons and about what happens when the machines realize that we are just incredibly inefficient users of resources and that they should just disassemble us and use our bits for other things.

• 1:25:09Chris Sacca?

  Same guys who are working on how to preserve brains in boxes for infinity. I mean, a smart guy really like said, he stopped skiing and mountain biking because he knows that if we make it to 2035, we'll be immortal. So he just doesn't want to get hurt between now and then. Like, there's some wild shit happening.

• 1:25:29Tim Ferriss?

  He knows.

• 1:25:30Chris Sacca?

  And I believe in it. I believe in it. I believe that AI is accelerating drug discovery. I mean, Crystal and I have been funding research into snake bites and antivenom. Snake bites kill a fascinating number of people around the world every year and antivenom isn't available. It usually has to be in cold storage, all this stuff. Some guys and gals in a lab recently just had AI synthesize a bunch of antivenom that's shelf-stable, that can be distributed around the fucking world and the AI came up with it. It's crazy. They've already tested it on rodents and it works. The stuff that's going to happen in drug discovery, the stuff that's happening within fusion, within

• 1:26:09Chris Sacca?

  energy, within just clean tech overall, it's all fucking fascinating. It's all being accelerated by AI. There is nothing I am working on in technology right now that isn't being accelerated by AI.

• 1:26:21Tim Ferriss?

  So you're saying though, the ivory tower stuff, where do they miss the mark?

• 1:26:24Chris Sacca?

  The challenge is this, is that what most people do for a living is going away. So let's look historically. We fucked with the blue collar working class in America. So we had this social contract. People came home from World War II and we said, hey, thank you for your service. You go work in a factory and if you keep your head down and show up to work every day, you will have a house, picket fence, you know, you can have a wife, raise some kids, get two weeks of vacation, you'll have a little extra money to maybe buy a small boat or have a fishing cabin. You can go to Disney World and you have a pension waiting for you on the other end of that. Or you take the GI Bill, you can go to college and you can go into a profession and maybe your military time

• 1:27:09Chris Sacca?

  already got you started as a dentist or a doctor, etc. We just, we had this social contract. Hey, if you do your part, we got you. You're part of this. And then we started to fucking shatter that. And I saw it firsthand when I talked about where I grew up, where we started sending jobs overseas. We started busting the unions and people started losing that agency, that control over their own destiny. Their small businesses were eviscerated by outsourcing and by Walmart. And when you do that, you get a bunch of people who panic because the American social contract is that if you show up, You will get yours.

• 1:27:52Chris Sacca?

  And when you don't give somebody that opportunity, you take it away from them and you take that ownership away from them and you take their house or you take their store and you take their farm, then you get the pitchforks. And so we saw this in the housing crisis of 809, when all those people had that shit taken away from them, they were pissed off. Now, I would argue they pointed that ire in the wrong direction. So not to get political, but I think they vilified the wrong people. They vilified immigrants who had nothing to fucking do with it, who were doing jobs that nobody else wanted to do. They vilified political leaders who were actually looking out for them, et cetera. But all that aside, we cannot let the politics of it keep us from missing. What happened? We took all of that away from them and they got pissed and politics in this country got

• 1:28:36Chris Sacca?

  more divisive, more extreme, violent in some cases. And all because, you know, Bob Marley, a hungry man is an angry man. Like, the reality of this is fucking true. When you take away agency from somebody, you back them into a corner. So now do that for all the fucking white collar employees. Do that for everyone who stayed in and did their fucking homework and went to college and took out all those fucking student loans and who feel like they have played by the rules. They are the pride and joy of their families who actually got their degree, in some cases a master's degree, who saw their career path laid out for them. And now they see that their life's work is obviated by a machine that's just better

• 1:29:20Chris Sacca?

  than them this fucking fast and costs $20 a month. You know, we had a writer work for us briefly who was like, I feel like my career's work is valuable for about 18 more months and then that's it.

• 1:29:32Tim Ferriss?

  So Chris, let me jump in for a second. I have two, I guess, questions for you. One is related to a common refrain you might hear wandering the streets of San Francisco. And you've spent plenty of time around tech, folks, so that you will know this, related to job displacement. And then the other one is, okay, so what does this look like, right? Like five years from now, what might things look like? So those are the two questions, just to plant the seeds. The first one is if I have this conversation around job displacement and I'm on board with you because a lot of folks who are talking about job displacement in the abstract.

• 1:30:10Tim Ferriss?

  Either have too much of a dog in the fight pro tech, so they feel like they can't say anything anti AI. So they're shilling their bags, not to get too technical.

• 1:30:21Chris Sacca?

  No, you get canceled if you say this shit out loud.

• 1:30:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:24Chris Sacca?

  Literally get canceled by the tech.

• 1:30:25Tim Ferriss?

  Or they don't actually run businesses where you and I realize, and a lot of people are realizing this, but my team and I use AI dozens of times a day. And there are plenty of people we currently pay who are paid out of some feeling of gratitude or moral obligation, but AI could replace them tomorrow. So I'm already seeing the job displacement in the concrete. But a lot of these folks in tech might say, well, if you look back historically, there are all of these different technological developments. TV killed the radio star and on and on and on. And look at the car, like, did it eliminate horses? No. And blah, blah, blah. All these people found other jobs. We've seen it 100 times before. Why is this time any different? So I'd love for you just to speak to that.

• 1:31:12Chris Sacca?

  So first of all, the conflict is incredibly myopic. I mean, I actually like Vinod Khosla, but he gave a TED Talk where he talked about all the promise of AI. And then there was a slide this year where he's like, um, and so, yeah, there'll be some job losses, but we'll just redistribute the wealth. Next slide. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. When has any society ever successfully redistributed the wealth? That just doesn't fucking work.

• 1:31:35Tim Ferriss?

  What does he even mean by that?

• 1:31:38Chris Sacca?

  I don't know. It's just easy to think when you own OpenAI. I actually think Sam Altman cares. Sam's an intense dude. I actually think he saw this coming and was trying to do some shit with WorldCoin and is trying to give the general populace and every human being a piece of the ownership of the chip clusters and stuff. It's esoteric intellectual shit, but I actually think he's not naive to this. And I've had conversations with him about it. I don't think he's myopic to it. I just don't know if anyone has an answer. In the meantime, the arms race is such that, you know, I sympathize, like, we can't slow down or somebody else builds it and we are all super.

• 1:32:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Why is it different this time around?

• 1:32:15Chris Sacca?

  Because it's so much faster. What humans suck at is understanding the slope of an exponential curve. Tim Urban told this story better than anybody else. He has the perfect fucking cartoon, you know, one of his classic cartoon charts.

• 1:32:33Chris Sacca?

  We literally put it in our investor update like last year. Remember where humans want to estimate the rate of change by if they're standing on a curve and an exponential curve, they turn around and look backward and they estimate the future rate of change by looking at that. But if they were just to turn forward, they would realize their nose is pressed against the fucking curve because it's going vertical. Now I can see this across the companies we work with infusion. People used to say fusion just wasn't possible. It's 30 years off. Well, we're fusing atoms every fucking day right now and net energy is being achieved every fucking day right now. And data centers are signing power agreements with our fusion companies right now for hundreds

• 1:33:17Chris Sacca?

  of fucking megawatts coming onto the grid or behind the meter. Fusion is real. It's fucking here. The government is doing our private companies are doing it. Period. End of fucking story. I'm not having that debate with anyone anymore. It was one of those perfect like, I'm not here to convince you. I'm just going to buy all the fucking fusion companies, but AI is what made that possible. But anyone who's naysaying it hasn't actually been in the lab and seen how we go from one to 1.1 to 1.4 to fucking 11. And so that's just the rate of change. And Tim is one of the best explainers of concepts in history. And so, yeah, exactly.

• 1:33:54Tim Ferriss?

  Tim ran everybody.

• 1:33:56Chris Sacca?

  It's just, it runs, it runs in the name. And so what's happening now is that you know, when cars originally came out in some places, they were required to have someone walk in front of them. You know this? And so the first generation of cars were required to have a pedestrian escort to make sure they didn't run into anything, swear to fucking God. And so there was a long period of transition where generations could keep up and where there were still human exceptional abilities in which people could be retrained or the next generation could go ahead and repurpose themselves.

• 1:34:34Chris Sacca?

  I defy you to tell me what's so human exceptional right now. We're all so proud of ourselves, but what are we so fucking good at that the machines can't do it? Here, I'll confess the secret to you. So Crystal and I, with a good friend, recently wrote a screenplay. It was a comedy idea that Crystal and I had. And we'd been mulling on it and we went to a really close friend who's a very successful screenwriter to do the heavy lifting on it. I mean, he's a writer's writer. So, you know, like in the credit world, we're the story by and he's the writer, right? And so we went to, you know, shop it around and a well-known dude wants to buy it and star in it. But he had comments on the third act. So we got the comments back and I had an idea for the third act.

• 1:35:17Chris Sacca?

  And I was like, okay, wait, I need to convince Crystal and this other guy of this idea I have for the third act. I went to Claude and I just said, hey, help me build a little dialogue really quickly around this idea that this guy comes down and, and he sees her on his phone and then the monk comes out and like he's awkward, but he covers for her by making this noise. And, and I was like, and make it funny as shit. It's lighthearted. It's in the style of like Judd Apatow. You know, I think I told it. Judd's not a buyer. I'm not trying to, you know, but it was like that kind of style of comedy. And it fucking banged it out. And I sent that to my collaborators and those exact lines won't be used. But I was like, that's a funny fucking scene.

• 1:36:02Chris Sacca?

  That wasn't a science report. That was a funny fucking scene of comedy that I conceived of. But like Claude made it fucking funny. And I sent it to my collaborators and like, oh dude, yes, that bang. And I'm like, fuck, man. I consider myself a writer, right? You read my writing. My writing doesn't go public.

• 1:36:22Tim Ferriss?

  You're a very good writer.

• 1:36:24Chris Sacca?

  But that's what I do. I write things that raise billions of dollars and we just don't give it to anybody but the people who we work with. But dude, it's fucking good. You know, we did a thing where we fed ChatGPT everything I've ever written. And we have a lower carbon voice bot. And it knows exactly where to drop the F bombs and exactly where to use the cowboy phrases. It's really fucking good, man. Like I'm gonna be extinct soon.

• 1:36:49Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. So what do you think things look like three or five years from now? Could be a year from now. I mean, things are moving so quickly.

• 1:36:56Chris Sacca?

  By the way, by the way, thank you. Thank you. You're the only person who talks about it like I do in single-digit years. It's single-digit years. I love when people come to us in like 2050. I'm like, fuck you 2050. You're embarrassing yourself if you're talking about 2050 right now. Are you shitting me? Let's not even talk about geo-instability and all the fucking weirdness and what's gonna happen when our country is run by some non-serious people. Shit is fucking chaotic right now. But like, let's just talk about what really happens when we start in a year or two or three seeing massive job losses because you just don't fucking need those people. You know, I mean, Tim, you were one of the first people to be like, hey, here's a way to outsource your life. Yep. Here's a way to use tools to have more control and more leverage over what you do

• 1:37:41Chris Sacca?

  and allow you yourself to focus on the things that are specifically your value add, your expertise, and not waste your time on the other bullshit. You kicked off a wave. Sometimes I blame you for it, right? I'm like, I can't get some kids to work more than six hours a week. No, I'm just kidding. But you have always been a systems thinker about what are these tools we can use? Well, now, dude, I use these tools all day long, all fucking day long. And now they're integrated into your email and they're integrated into your spreadsheets. And they're integrated in everything we do. And now I can tell people's pitch emails are coming from them. And like, right now, I can sniff out which ones are written by them, but the next generation I won't.

• 1:38:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:22Chris Sacca?

  And they're solving problems. And it's like, if you read Tyler Cohen, who I read every day, he's having debates with O1. And I consider Tyler Cohen indispensable. I consider no opinion actually indispensable reading every fucking day. I would never go through my day without reading him. I try to read everything DK Thompson writes every day. Well, I mean, he doesn't write every single day. And then Zivi and some of these other people who are really paying Ethan Mollick. Like, if you're really paying attention, I don't know what we're particularly good at. I just don't know anymore. I mean, our daughter, our middle daughter Circa is a really talented singer and theater person, you know, and she at age 11 is aware of this and is like, hey, Mom, Dad, will Broadway still exist? And like, I think so.

• 1:39:06Tim Ferriss?

  I think Broadway will exist.

• 1:39:07Chris Sacca?

  We'll crave being around people. Yeah, I think people want to be in the presence of other people.

• 1:39:11Tim Ferriss?

  Is gonna be a much dicier proposition.

• 1:39:15Chris Sacca?

  My brother, who you know has been really successful in Hollywood is currently rolling up residential real estate in climate havens because, you know, he's just like, okay, I'm a writer. That's kind of getting all fucked up. I'm an actor, you know, I could just sell some scans of my funny face and they'll write good jokes for me to deliver. And he's like, so, uh, what do I do now? You know, and that's just the fucking hard reality of it. I'm literally not trying to poo poo it because it's also the most beautiful thing that's happened. And I use these tools all day long and they're companions and all these stories about the great things they can do for you are absolutely fucking beautiful, but they are going to shred the social fabric and I don't think we're ready

• 1:39:58Chris Sacca?

  for that. And so I don't know what people do for a living. Like I would love for my kids to know how to use tools.

• 1:40:02Tim Ferriss?

  Massage therapists, give me a massage therapist.

• 1:40:06Chris Sacca?

  Dude, have you seen the massage robots yet? They don't get carpal tunnel, man. And so,

• 1:40:12Chris Sacca?

  I mean, a good massage therapist can only do so many in a day. It's just unhealthy to do more. And so they don't get carpal tunnel.

• 1:40:19Tim Ferriss?

  The, the warm soothing hands of my iRobot.

• 1:40:24Chris Sacca?

  Have you seen that O1? Have you seen that O1 robot? Any of these things, even like even chat GPT with the video or Google with the video now and stuff like that where it goes through the room and remembers everything it saw. Like, Tim, you get overwhelmed. Like if you're paying attention, it's overwhelming and you know what's inevitable. Like you know, we're in a really bad spot, man. And I just don't think like our government and our institutions, we don't have a social safety net. We just aren't set up for this. I feel lucky that my kids are in elementary and middle school and not in late high school or college right now, because I don't know what I would be telling them to do. Like really good parents sent their kids to coding classes, really good parents sent their

• 1:41:04Chris Sacca?

  kids to law school. Here, I've started asking doctor friends, if you had a biopsy, would you rather it be read by a human being or by an AI? I've yet to have one say by a human being. Who do you want as your pathologist? By the way, this is like the one thing where I start realizing like, oh my God, the nature of this question. Like, I was in a car with a driver the other day and one of those Waymo cars pulled in front of us. And I was like, I can't even talk about this right now because it's existential to what this guy does. An immigrant from Ethiopia who came over and built his own book of business as a driver is incredible. And here he is looking at a robot that displaces him. How do I even have that conversation?

• 1:41:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So, all right, let's nibble on this a bit because you've clearly thought about it a lot. I'm pretty saturated with this as well. It seems like with AI and/or robotics, a lot of the things that humans, including developers and computer scientists and so on, engineers, thought were going to be hard, ended up being easy. And the things they thought were going to be easy ended up being hard. So, for instance, drafting legal documents turns out lickety-split piece of cake. Maybe throwing a baseball and like playing catch with someone, very, very difficult.

• 1:42:22Chris Sacca?

  Have you seen one Mark Rober? Mark is a friend and a guy I deeply admire. Mark Rober makes incredible YouTube videos. Did you ever see the dartboard he made where it's impossible to miss? So you throw a dart and he built a machine learning dartboard that automatically moves you hit a bullseye every time.

• 1:42:39Tim Ferriss?

  Just play along with me for a second. There are things people assumed would take forever that were done very quickly and the opposite, right? So I'm wondering if you had to place bets, like you're a better, you're an investor.

• 1:42:50Chris Sacca?

  I've been known to dabble.

• 1:42:51Tim Ferriss?

  So if you had to place bets on sectors or things that are going to either be slow to change or that will actually become more valuable over time. I mean, a handful of years ago, this was when a lot of these gears, at least from the kind of mainstream public awareness perspective, were just getting going. I was like, yeah, I think there'll be basically like a free trade ethically sourced stamp of human made on things that will, for certain things, develop some type of premium, right? Connotation. That seems inevitable. Those types of watermarking and things like that, even for digital products, which then, then we've already seen. So if you had to bet, you're like, all right, sorry buddy, we're taking this. Lower carbon capital thing off your hands. We've heard you complaining about the 70

• 1:43:35Tim Ferriss?

  hour work weeks. We found a robot who we think can do the admin and the annual shareholder letters as well as you can. Now you're just going to bet on stuff that's going to last or that's going to increase in value because it will be slow to be affected by AI or it will be largely immune. What would you bet on?

• 1:43:56Chris Sacca?

  First of all, I'm betting on the Bills on the money line to beat the Ravens this weekend. And so I love that they're playing at home, but going in as underdogs night game. That stadium is going to be nuts. The Ravens won't be able to hear anything. Lamar Jackson wears a turtleneck in Miami. He's going to freeze his ass off. We got this game. So, sorry. Go Bills. And so I would be betting on sports. I swear to God, I hate the head injuries in football. I really do. It's just, but on the other hand, there's just something so primal about the gladiator shit that goes on in football. And when I see it bring entire communities together, particularly a beat up community like Buffalo that's taking some lumps, I adore it. We've never raised our kids to be jocks, but I really find kinship,

• 1:44:40Chris Sacca?

  talking to them about sports and playing sports to them and watching them develop as athletes. Yes, I do believe we could obviously build machines that pitch better than any human that's walked the earth, but sports like, you know, not the all drug Olympics, but just human sports, there will be a true analog primal attraction to those contests. It's just one of the last real things. And so I think there's something really truly there. You know, Tim, I spend a lot of time in Japan like you do, and there is something so alluring about making pottery, about the wabi-sabi, the imperfection, about the craft

• 1:45:21Chris Sacca?

  of studying one thing, the soul that goes into a piece of sushi, the calligraphy, the ceremony. The big nights out in cocktail bars, by the way, where there's one piece of fruit. Like, I'm absolutely addicted to that culture. But it's that same craving for analog. You know, and it's funny because growing up, that was a place I thought of as like where all the coolest new cameras came from. But it's a craving for that analog again.

• 1:45:47Tim Ferriss?

  And they've been culturally kind of ahead of the curve with that for probably at least, I would say 15 to 20 years in terms of going very retro to things are considered outdated or analog, which is fascinating.

• 1:46:04Chris Sacca?

  The LP bars and stuff like that. Yeah. But Tim, let's be honest, they better start having sex real soon or they're going to disappear. And the Koreans, like the reproductive rate in Korea, like Korea is just going to close up shop. I'm fucking worried. Like, I don't know what to do about this shit. Everyone needs to start fucking.

• 1:46:21Tim Ferriss?

  It was $250 billion in South Korea towards trying to promote procreating. Didn't work at all. Zero effect. And there, there are actually a lot of like weird reasons for that that are not immediately obvious. Like, I think you have to put up like a six to 12 month security deposit for an apartment. So people can't afford the space, but people are also just not having sex or not procreating, which are not automatically the same thing.

• 1:46:47Chris Sacca?

  No, it's, we're, we're, we're societally fucked, dude. If we don't, if people don't start fucking and having more kids. And I'm putting that on you, Tim. Where are the Timmy, little Tim Timmies?

• 1:46:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, it's on the docket.

• 1:46:58Chris Sacca?

  You're the living distinction of, yeah, you can't conflate having sex and having children, but let's get on it. Okay? That's your homework. And so, but I do, anyway. So the schools here in Bozeman aren't the most academically competitive, right? They do a pretty good job. The elementary school is actually really special. But it's funny when we talk to our kids about what went on at school today. Orchestra is offered five days a week. And so math and science alternate every other day. English and social studies alternate, but orchestra is every single day, choir is every single day. And so when we talk to the kids about school, they talk to us about music and PE class and lunch. And so it's interesting. I mean, we'll pry information out of them about the other classes.

• 1:47:42Chris Sacca?

  And, you know, again, they're not the most challenging or riveting classes. So maybe that's part of it. But there's something happening in getting back to the arts. You know, like, we went to one of their orchestra concerts the other night. And, boy, there were some kids out of tune. And, boy, it was a little, it was, you know, the middle school orchestra was a little like, and there was some squeakiness. But I was just like, Crystal, this is not on Spotify. Like, this is fucking amazing. You know what I mean? Like, what's happening here is amazing. This is human as fuck, you know? And like, two sections of the orchestra getting, like, not paying attention to the lady who's been conducting for 30 years, being like, can you see my fucking hand? It's just doing like this, like, get on that beat.

• 1:48:24Chris Sacca?

  Like, it was beautifully human, you know? And the same way that the awkwardness, I mean, we constantly talk to our kids about, middle school is about the awkwardness. It's about the asking someone to the dance or being asked to the dance. It's about all these fucking kids who stink a little bit and sweat and are, look gangly in their fucking clothes. And I love, by the way, I love now being an adult and seeing who, like, the alphas are considered, like, that's the fucking alpha kid in your class? I worry that he couldn't wrestle his way out of a wet paper bag, but like, that's the attractive kid, hilarious. But back when you're in middle school, you can self-identify, you're like, oh, my God, that's the fucking kid, like, that guy. Ray, I mean, Ray's gotta get any girl he wants. I just love seeing it now through that lens.

• 1:49:07Chris Sacca?

  I just think we have to embrace the messiness of our humanity. And it goes back to that new project.

• 1:49:13Tim Ferriss?

  Not to make it super crass, and we're gonna get to that project, but because I think this is just a honing function, and you're so good at it in so many ways, how would you bet on that humanness, that imperfection, that awkwardness, that wabi-sabi?

• 1:49:28Chris Sacca?

  Like my financial bet?

• 1:49:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. Like, outside of sports, I think is very on point. I would agree with that completely.

• 1:49:36Chris Sacca?

  I think most people are still gonna be hermits, but a large number of people are gonna crave the opportunity to be together still. So. Crystal and I have been looking at places here. Yeah, pretty much. No, it's funny. Like, we were looking to buy some space recently, like some beat up warehouse space. And it took a long time to help our real estate agent understand that there wasn't a specific purpose for it. And he's like, what's the business plan? We're like, no, no, no, like, when we see the space, we'll know. And he's like, what are you hoping to do there? And we're like, it's kind of office, it's kind of art space. It's kind of like, maybe we can make it available to the community. Maybe there's some small performances there. Maybe there's some wine or a cafe there. I was like, we don't really know.

• 1:50:19Chris Sacca?

  We'll kind of know when we see it and the community will kind of define the purpose of it. Or like, we just know that we need more convenient.

• 1:50:25Tim Ferriss?

  He's like, I'm gonna need a retainer.

• 1:50:27Chris Sacca?

  Like, yeah. Yeah. No, I'm like, I'm like, there's no math to pencil out on it. But we just need more of those places to hang. By the way, all right, free idea for anyone in your audience. You know what needs to exist?

• 1:50:41Tim Ferriss?

  Chuck E. Cheese for Gen X.

• 1:50:43Chris Sacca?

  And if somebody starts this in a city that I will travel to, I want a landlocked yacht club.

• 1:50:53Chris Sacca?

  That is also a mini golf country club. It's basically, it's yacht rock themed. So you show up, you gotta wear white shoes, maybe a captain's hat, umbrellas in the drinks, yacht rock band playing. It has the air of a country club. It's accessible to everybody. Maybe a membership costs 10 bucks. You know, you have to have a membership, by the way, to make it exclusive. A $10 membership. They have to apply at the door, give some references, answer some yacht rock trivia, whatever. But then, it's a country club for mini golf. The putt putts have generally gone away. We need to bring mini golf back. And like, you'll there be like mahogany lockers for your putter, you know? And so you go in there and you have a really choice putter, you know, like in catch a chuck like billy, billy, billy, billy, billy.

• 1:51:37Chris Sacca?

  And so you can talk to your golf club, but I really need someone to fucking do this. Okay? You can call it Yahtzee's, you can call it whatever you want, but I need this to exist. I will be there. There's a bar in Redondo Beach on the pier called Old Tony's. Or it's called Tony's on the pier, but everyone refers. Old Tony's. The inside has not changed in 50 years and I would do anything to get on the historic register of places to make sure it never changes. Because that is the perfect place to convene and I will ride down there, ride bikes with friends when I'm in LA and hang out at Old Tony's on the pier. And just feel like that's what we crave. Go there and talk about nothing. Just hang out.

• 1:52:18Chris Sacca?

  And I think like I would be betting on people want to get together and bullshit. I think our kids are the canary in the coal mine of what happens when everything went digital. It's fucking exhausting, man. And being yelled at online is fucking exhausting. People are not accountable to each other, right? I mean, if anything, I could have told you how the result of this election was going to go because most Americans are just fucking tired of it. They're tired of being yelled at. They're tired of being criticized. As Jonathan Haidt likes to put it. It's no longer about the intentions of the speaker. It's how the listener heard it. Fuck that. Like, I'm so fucking sick of that. And I got reeled into it like everybody else and it's fucking exhausting.

• 1:53:01Chris Sacca?

  And everyone who thinks like that can fuck right off and go away because intentions have to fucking matter. We have to get back to it. And where intentions matter is when you're hanging out in person. You can tell, hey, were you trying to be an asshole or did you just say the wrong thing? My wife is half Asian. First time I brought her home to see my grandmother, she was like, oh my God. Chris brought the most incredible Oriental girl home. Now, was she trying to say like, fuck you? Why'd you bring an Oriental girl into my home? No, what she was trying to say is like, oh my God, this woman who I don't know the more updated, less antiquated term for a woman from Asia. I think we need to call each other in more than call each other out. And so you can just be like grandma, as Walter in The Big Lebowski says. Chinaman is no longer the preferred nomenclature, you know?

• 1:53:48Chris Sacca?

  Honestly, I feel like we could get to a point where as a culture, we want to hang out in person again. We want to be around each other. Like, I know my neighbors where I live, like my physical neighbors, more than I ever did in San Francisco. I lived in a building and I did not know the people around me. Everywhere I've lived since then, I actually know my neighbors. I don't think we vote the same all the time. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. But I know I can count on them. I know I can have a relationship with them. I know we always find common ground. And like, we're part of a community and we're accountable to each other. And it's fucking great to have a community. And so I would be betting on communities again.

• 1:54:22Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, there's a big New York Times piece about running clubs and chess clubs and these in real life clubs with recurring events, beginning to displace dating apps, right? As an example, because people are just tired. People are just exhausted by having yet another inbox and with 99% ghost rate, etc.

• 1:54:46Chris Sacca?

  Well, people at those chess clubs need to start fucking or we're gonna go away as humanity. But, but no, I'm with you, man. Crystal and I didn't go to Montana State University, but it's right here in town. And so we started going to the football games there. And we'd consider ourselves super fans now. I mean, I wear blue and yellow fucking overalls to the games. It's ridiculous. And by the way, I've sent you these clips before. I'm like-

• 1:55:09Tim Ferriss?

  You sent me the photos, yeah.

• 1:55:10Chris Sacca?

  The start of the game is Metallica starts playing, fire torches, cannons, a band is on stage, then horses, the rodeo team rides in with American flags. And then there's a flyover of military planes or helicopters. I'm like, America. Like, this is what it's all about. But I really enjoy that we have a fucking community here. And I really enjoy who we hang out with. And I think I would be betting on community. I would be betting on neighbors. And I don't think the whole trend is going in that direction. I think the addiction to these phones is taking us another place. The availability of food to eat by yourself and great TV and great apps and feeds. I mean, the first time I installed TikTok, Tim, was during the pandemic.

• 1:55:54Chris Sacca?

  And I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. I'll check out those dance moves. Next thing I knew, I looked up and the sun had come up. I had been up all fucking night long on this app. I mean, it was like fucking crack cocaine injected into my veins. I realized whatever like genes, some ethnicities don't have to tolerate alcohol. I don't have that for fucking TikTok. And so I can only imagine what it's doing to the masses right now. And I hope we come up with a GLP one agonist that like blocks the pleasure center for TikTok. But I would be doing anything I can for profit or nonprofit to enhance community and hangouts.

• 1:56:30Tim Ferriss?

  So you've got all your knowledge that you have now. You do not have all your connections, but you have the know how. And you are somewhere between 20 and 30 years old. And you're going to start a business. What type of business might you start?

• 1:56:50Chris Sacca?

  Tim, what do you want me to say? I genuinely don't know.

• 1:56:53Tim Ferriss?

  CrossFit gyms?

• 1:56:55Chris Sacca?

  CrossFit gyms are community. They're great. I was standing in one last night. I told you, I texted you last night. I was like, if you want to make friends in a CrossFit gym in Montana, just drop that you are pals with Tim Ferriss. And so like Shark Tank only goes so far in that gym. Once you say you're friends with Tim Ferriss, like, oh shit. First of all, I love the ethos of CrossFit. It's how I work out. You can just fucking tell, can't you, Tim? But those are community. You know, one of the things we've enjoyed doing is going to towns. I can't remember which sites are doing this anymore, but finding somebody who will guide you on a local bar crawl. And just like, hey, take me to all the fucking dive bars or all the tiki bars. Or take me to three farmers markets.

• 1:57:40Chris Sacca?

  Or just take me to three things I want to see. And it's like, not the traditional like art historian who just recites everything about Tidian. And I said that one just for you. I could have said Velazquez, but I said Tidian just for you.

• 1:57:54Tim Ferriss?

  Know thy audience. No dying.

• 1:57:57Chris Sacca?

  And so people were like, hey, come here and enjoy this analog experience with me. You know, let's go to these places. You asked why we go to Copenhagen because Copenhagen is bikes, man. You get on bikes, make it up. It's freewheeling. We started with Rene, but then we met a lot of other people who had spun off from Rene's world. Entrepreneurs in food and other stuff and artisans and people who take food and service. I mean, Ricardo Marcon, who runs Baraba, Baraba is, well, Action Bronson called it the best Italian restaurant in the world. And it's in Copenhagen. I mean, you start wars with that kind of shit, but there's an argument that the best Italian restaurant in the world is in Copenhagen, run by our buddy Ricardo. But Ricardo is the height of analog experiences. It starts with the hug at the door.

• 1:58:39Tim Ferriss?

  So would you start staging in his restaurant? What would your move be?

• 1:58:44Chris Sacca?

  I mean, the kids have, our children have, they've made plenty of pasta in that place. But I think Europe is on to something with the art of the slow drink in the plaza. I really think humans still want to have a slow drink in a plaza somewhere. I hope, I hope. And I know we're not drinking as much alcohol, but I mean, I love those athletics, by the way. You realize that 80% of drinking a beer is just like, you wanted the 12 ounce curl apart, you know? It's just like, today sucked, give me an athletic. And you're like, I don't actually want to get fucked up right now, but there's just something I need to cap this day. I need to say work is over. And so, sorry, that was my limoncello. I guess that's a bad standing for athletic. We do have alcohol investments. I wouldn't be betting on alcohol long term, but I think people still want to just hang out.

• 1:59:29Chris Sacca?

  The ritual of ordering a drink, ordering a light bite, hanging out, people watching. We need central places to hang. This movement during COVID of shutting down streets, making a bike, but also just cafe and outdoor seating friendly. We need more of that. Humans crave that shit. That's what I would be betting on right now. And then interactive guiding. Yes, I've used chat G P to be like, hey, what's the off the beaten path shit I should do in Berlin? It's really good at it. But you know what else is cool is talking to a fucking punk kid in Berlin. It was like, let me take you to a couple of places and I know this fucking guy and he'll let you in and he has a craft cocktail. And do you know what the tradition is here? Here you spit, you know, you put gum on the back of some marks and you throw them up on the fucking ceiling, you know? And so I want more of that shit.

• 2:00:13Chris Sacca?

  And so I think there is going to be a backlash to all this.

• 2:00:17Tim Ferriss?

  To all this, meaning machines and A I and so on.

• 2:00:20Chris Sacca?

  The machines, the machines.

• 2:00:22Tim Ferriss?

  The Butlerian Jihad.

• 2:00:24Chris Sacca?

  Before that, yes, before they fucking kill us, I think we've got bigger fish to fry before AGI. And we might be at AGI right now anyway, by the way, but before the bioweapon disassemblers, you know, like, I think we've got to worry about.

• 2:00:40Tim Ferriss?

  Being entertained to death by your curated feed.

• 2:00:44Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, I mean, okay, so remember when we talked about Buckminster Fuller and I seem to be a verb? There's another book designed by the same designer, Quentin Fiori, called The Medium Is The Massage, not the message, the massage. The background on that is originally a typo, but they went with it.

• 2:01:07Chris Sacca?

  It's Marshall McLuhan and that book, holy shit. Sorry if we just broke the market for it, but that book, you should front run that. Go buy all those copies, but that book again is one of these old ones. It's beautiful, by the way, because Quentin designed it, but it's this beautiful foresight as to what's happening, not just entertaining yourself to death, but what happens when information supplants humanity. And so when that access, it's just, I mean, the book's got to be 50 years old at least.

• 2:01:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's an oldie. All right, so outside of the butlerian jihad, we haven't talked at all about lower carbon capital or very little. You've invested in a whole plethora of different companies through lower carbon capital. You may not want to answer this, but are there any in particular, could be a sector, could be individual companies that you are particularly excited about where it's like, okay, these are a handful, could be a sector, doesn't have to be an individual company. And this is a way of asking, like, what would you bet on outside of all the AI concerns and so on? And maybe these are AI enabled, in fact.

• 2:02:16Chris Sacca?

  So let's just say what we do at Lower Carbon. We are venture capitalists and a team of scientists and business builders. And we back companies that are making real money by either slashing CO2 emissions or sucking carbon out of the sky or buying us time to unfuck the planet. I think this one even says it. Unfuck the planet. Trademarked in a lot of countries. Hard to do, by the way. It's hard to get swears trademarked some places. China, not huge fans of F-bombs, turns out. And so it was mission driven for me. But we had this thesis that most climate investing and green investing, whatever you want to fucking call it, however they're branding it these days, had been basically charitable, concessionary.

• 2:03:00Chris Sacca?

  Some trade off, some sacrifice couldn't be done on a for profit basis. And that was true for a long time. You needed regulatory support. You needed subsidy. You needed legal change. You needed philanthropy. But we started to actually see the math change to where the unit economics of making shit and climate, making shit clean, were starting to pay off. And so the cost was coming down thanks to compute, machine learning, AI, thanks to readily available feedstock, bioreactors, you name it. And then the demand was starting to increase on the other side because companies are realizing like, oh, if I do this stuff, not only is it just good for the planet, but it's just fucking cheaper. It's safer. It's more resilient. It's easier to use.

• 2:03:45Chris Sacca?

  It tends to blow up less than shit made with oil and gas. Cause it just turns out that digging up and burning old dinosaur bones is fucking expensive. And so using the sun to power the economy is just fucking cheaper. And that's not a political statement. And what's funny is when I talk to guys from West Texas, like hardcore oil and gas, I'll admit, I have to start the conversation by talking about the truck I drive. I have to quote some Kenny Chesney lyrics. I ask, what's in season? What are they hunting? Talk about whatever trophy is behind them. I have to establish like I come in peace. But then we start talking about, how are the cattle doing? Where are yields like? How many are you running right now?

• 2:04:29Chris Sacca?

  Where do they weigh? You get some size. How's it growing season? How many harvests are you getting? You get some size. What's hunting been like? You know, how many tags you getting? You able to fill all those tags? You bagging anything good? Then you start talking about how are jobs going? How are people doing there? Then you start asking, so you guys getting any of those shakes? You getting the daily seismic activity? What's water like? And before you know it, you have just talked all of the reality of a fucked climate without ever mentioning the word one dime.

• 2:05:05Chris Sacca?

  And it doesn't have to be fucking political at all. It's just the reality. You know, the California fires are so fucked up. But the reality is they're actually going to be an accelerator for the work we do. Because now, you know, a lot of climate stuff is like, well, shit, if I eat this shitty mushroom burger, then maybe fewer people will be subjected to floods in Mongolia. It's really fucking abstract, right? And we think maybe there's like 300 million people on the planet who actually try and do that math and are willing to spend more money to buy something more expensive, or who are willing to actually sacrifice deeply in their life with that kind of end to end relationship in mind.

• 2:05:50Chris Sacca?

  But like seven and a half billion people don't have that luxury. Or just, it's really fucking taxing and exhausting to think about that all the time. I don't want to every time I sit down and bite into a delicious burger, had to be confronted by the existential crisis I am feeling. I mean, I love when that juice drips down, and you're like, oh, fuck, this is fucking delicious, medium rare, let's go. Oh, this grass fed awesomeness, oh shit, like you left a little that fat in there, mm, yeah, let's go. What'd you marinate this in? Oh, it's fucking delicious. We were meant to eat that shit, right? And I don't want to have to constantly like, I'm a horrible person, I'm a horrible person and like eat it through my tears, like,

• 2:06:29Chris Sacca?

  the burger of shame. So it's just not, it's not who we are. And you know what? The fucking activists made us feel so bad about it for so fucking long. The soup throwers, these people throwing soup on paintings. How the fuck are you helping anything? The people who glue themselves to the fucking floor of the US Open and stop traffic. Like, how are you helping anything? All you're doing is radicalizing people against the stuff that we're doing that is practically unfucking their businesses, their communities. If you really want to put some blame on some people about what happened in the LA fires, like if we're really just playing the blame game. And did you see the article, by the way? It's a bunch of Russian disinfo accounts that are really flooding the tweets with trying to blame different people and stuff. It's fucked up. So Russia just knows where to fucking pick the scabs with us.

• 2:07:14Chris Sacca?

  But if you want to blame somebody, it's the fucking environmentalists. It's the fucking Sierra Club who makes it impossible for anyone to actually do any defensible space, to mow anything down, to do any controlled burns, to actually create defensible space around our fucking communities. It's the fucking NIMBYs who won't let anyone actually use appropriate materials in building a fucking house. Did you see, like, they are expediting the rebuild of any houses in those areas that burned down, but you can't make any fucking changes to them. So we just saw a bunch of Tinder boxes go up, and it's a great opportunity to be like, hey, maybe we should build us some different shit. Maybe we should build in some different shapes. Maybe we shouldn't have ventilation that sucks everything up into the roof structure.

• 2:07:59Chris Sacca?

  Maybe we shouldn't use the cheapest wood available, which is how Americans build shit. Maybe we should have more concrete, more aluminum, more heat reflection, more concrete walls around stuff. Maybe, just fucking maybe. Maybe we should use more shrubbery around it that actually absorbs more water and is less flammable. But no, expedited permitting if you build the exact same fucking thing you just had. Otherwise, you go back to the end of the line. How fucking defeating is that? But it's just so funny to be a climate investor and find myself constantly at odds with the goddamn environmentalists. I'm sure they have a fucking target on me, but that's the reality is right now, for the first time, I think we are going to draw the linkage between what happens if we don't deal with these problems and the direct damage they cause.

• 2:08:44Tim Ferriss?

  And so if you look at your portfolio, just not to lose track of that, you can feel free to punt it for a bit, but I'm wondering if you're like, okay, the things that I'm most excited about, kind of moving the needle in ways that you care about, what those technologies or sectors or companies would be?

• 2:08:59Chris Sacca?

  There's things that are going to transform at scale like fusion. Clean, abundant power that is almost free is single-digit years away. So that's fucking great. I don't even bother fighting with the oil and gas people. It doesn't fucking matter. In fact, I actually want them to work with us more on carbon capture and sequester, putting more carbon back into the ground because they've got the trucks and they've got the pipes and they've got the engineering know-how and they're great at it. And so we do a lot of work with oil and gas companies going in reverse. So I don't have political battles with those guys. And again, that's something that the activists hate about me. I will fucking sit with these people. Chris Wright, our new energy secretary, I consider him a reasonable person. He grew up in the oil and gas business.

• 2:09:43Chris Sacca?

  If we didn't have the oil and gas business, we would not enjoy the economy we enjoy today. Everything in that room you're sitting in right now was made possible by oil and gas. We can't just fucking pretend. Otherwise, we'd be living that primitive life that I know you've got in some of your survivalist books somewhere, but without oil and gas, we're fucked. It's my job to give you a better alternative. And I enjoy when the big oil majors come to us. You know, sometimes they'll try to do a business deal or even buy us. We had one of the big oil majors tried to buy lower carbon capital. We're not for sale, but we said, bring your engineering team to meet with our engineering team and let's get some shit done together. I love that. We have a company called Solugen that makes chemicals using enzymes instead of oil as the main ingredient.

• 2:10:25Chris Sacca?

  They're zero emission chemicals, industrial chemicals. You know who buys those chemicals? The oil and gas industry. And so one of the big chemicals they make is hydrogen peroxide at industrial scale, which is an important component of the oil and gas industry. When that buyer comes to Solugen to buy that stuff, they ask two questions. Is it hydrogen peroxide? And is it cheaper? Well, then fuck it, I'll buy it. And it's just fun. Like, I like to envision that guy with like a dip in and a cowboy hat, you know, like, oh, fuck it, I'll buy like, but literally that's my favorite fucking buyer. Someone who buys the cleaner thing out of self-interest. And so that's what we're seeing across all of this stuff. Now, in the short term, you want to talk about fires.

• 2:11:08Chris Sacca?

  We have a company called Burnbot that is literally an autonomous drone that goes into the wild urban interface, mows shit down, starts a controlled burn, burns a defensible space.

• 2:11:18Tim Ferriss?

  When you say defensible space, you just mean basically a?

• 2:11:22Chris Sacca?

  A fire line. So a space where there is a gap where it would be hard, even in high winds, for fire to jump that where at least firefighters know, start here and work backwards. By the way, if you have good fire lines, you can just start a fire to go back in the other direction and be like, well, this wasn't our preferred thing. But if we got a big fire coming at us, we may as well start a fire to head back at it. So you can look this up, Burnbot. It's fucking awesome. And, you know, private landowners don't have a problem usually running Burnbot. But where it needs to run is on a lot of public land and they'll just get sued. And so, you know, like, somebody will be like, hey, we need to do some fuel reduction here, some fuel management. And fuel management, I looked at some data recently, it takes between four and seven years for those projects to get out of litigation.

• 2:12:05Tim Ferriss?

  By fuel management, you mean actual timber or undergrowth? Is that what you mean by fuel?

• 2:12:11Chris Sacca?

  So before we were all walking around the United States, you know, what is now the United States, there used to be a bunch of fires, right? Just naturally caused fires, lightning stuff would happen. The indigenous people who inhabited this land knew about the power of those fires. And what would happen is when fires occurred on a regular basis, they were actually very healthy for those ecosystems. We know that there are certain conifers, pines, that only release their seeds in the event of a fire. They literally do not release their seeds otherwise. And so, fire is a vitally important part of a forest ecosystem. To have healthy nature, you have to have fire. A bunch of very well

• 2:12:51Chris Sacca?

  intentioned greens and environmentalists came along and said, holy shit, fire. It releases a bunch of shit in the sky. It gets close to human beings. Some deer will fucking die. You know, like, we need to stop fire. And look, all this shit in hindsight, I'm not blaming those people. Because in hindsight, I don't think they knew this. I think they were trying to do the right thing. But what happened was, they started putting out fires immediately. You know, we had all those massive fire towers, right? Those are fun to like, spend a night in. By the way, if you want to camp out in an old fire tower. So we had all these fire towers, they would see a fire, they would immediately put it out. Well, what happens when that happens is all this fuel grows. So all this undergrowth starts to grow and grow and grow.

• 2:13:32Chris Sacca?

  And before you know it, when the next fire starts, there's so much fuel there that instead of like cleaning it out and letting some little pine cones kind of drop and, and creating more space for the next layer of growth and for animal habitat. Instead, it burns so fucking hot that the biggest trees all burn down and the microbial layer all burns and now you've got fucking sand. And so what we started to realize was that all those years of fire suppression were the worst form of fire management. And in doing so, they actually hurt the nature they were intended to help. Even if there were no houses nearby, you have to let fires burn out. And if it's in a place where you can't just let that happen randomly,

• 2:14:14Chris Sacca?

  you have to actively manage fuels as if nature was doing it for you. And so managing fuels means in a scrub brush area, it means like you just go in and you chop and burn the fucking grass. You just have to do it. And so you have to build that defensible space and you have to let some of these spaces renew. And forests, it means you have to limb stuff. You have to take the dead stuff. You have to limb stuff and then you have to set it on fire. And you do these and it's a really, really important part of forest re-management. We know that now and the US Forest Service knows this. All that, those are hardworking, amazing fucking people. But the environmentalists do to stop them all the fucking time. And that's killing people right now. There's just no doubt about it. I am hopeful, a silver lining, because I'm going to talk about politics,

• 2:14:56Chris Sacca?

  but a silver lining is I think we're going to cut through some of that shit right now. I think we are headed into an era of pragmatism of putting literally the forest before the trees and starting to actually proactively get ahead of that stuff. By the way, it's the same shit with floods. It's the same shit with drought. It's the same shit with famine. We have just been stopped from taking proactive measures. So a company like Burn Bot, a company like Gridware. Gridware actually is monitoring equipment on every single power line, tower by tower. Like, do you know right now, if there is a power failure on a PG&E transmission line, do you know how they figure out where that power failure was? They just start driving along and looking up and trying to figure it out.

• 2:15:37Chris Sacca?

  Or they helicopter down the whole fucking line. They have no data that comes off those fucking lines. At this point, well, it's not my words. Somebody else said, at this point, PG&E is essentially the biggest arsonist in California. And so electrical utilities are responsible for 11% of the fire ignitions in the state of California and 50% of the damage. And so you have these tools like gridware that can just be tower by tower monitoring. Know where there's an interruption. You can immediately go there and see, okay, where was the tree that fell? Where is the spark? You can suppress that fire in a place where you don't want to have fire. Or you don't haven't controlled for it. But you know, there hasn't been an incentive for those companies to pay that. Like PG&E is already bankrupted. They haven't been on the hook for that. But now

• 2:16:21Chris Sacca?

  we've got insurance companies, like multiple insurance companies are going to go bankrupt right now. And so is California's Fair Plan, which is the insurer of last resort, does not have the money it needs to pay for what just happened. You know, we have a company called Stand, which is a fire insurance company that actually assesses the real risk of insuring your home. Instead of State Farm just pulling out of the fucking state. By the way, I don't think you watch a lot of football, but you know, the LA Rams couldn't play their game in LA because of the fires, right? So they moved it to their playoff game. They moved it to Arizona and they played in State Farm Arena. And I couldn't even believe they didn't just put duct tape over the fucking logo. It was the most fucked up irony ever.

• 2:17:00Chris Sacca?

  But so instead of having an insurance company plot of an entire state, a company like Stand looks at house by house by house and says, here is your modeled risk. And here are the other things that you can proactively do to reduce that risk to where we will actually write you an insurance policy. And we have companies like Floodbase that do that same thing for floods and look at like, here's the risk. And you can't, remember, 100 year storms happen every year now. Like, we can't just model these on historical data anymore. I mean, as Jon Stewart put it there, like what just happened in LA is like if a fire fucked a tornado, you can't just model for that anymore. You have to assume the worst and assume like, okay, what do we do in terms of space management? What do we do in terms of materials? What do we do in terms of suppression?

• 2:17:45Chris Sacca?

  What do we do in terms of response? What do we do in terms of adaptation and resiliency in the face of all that? And so I think there are so many opportunities to be better at that stuff right now. And I am hopeful.

• 2:17:58Chris Sacca?

  That the silver lining of a tragedy like this is the cause and the effect are so close and finally appeal so much to self-interest. They finally appeal to that linkage between instead of just like, hey, if a butterfly flaps its wings far away and you're like, oh, if that bush fucking lights on fire over there, that's it. You and I have a buddy who like went to go look at the wreckage of his home and his fireproof safe was a puddle. It was a fucking puddle. It's just so devastating. I'm hopeful. I actually feel a second wind in our work and so do the people I work with right now. I feel like it's always been mission driven, but we're also unapologetically capitalist. It's great.

• 2:18:38Chris Sacca?

  I mean, it's making a lot of money right now, but I feel like right now makes the stakes of it even clearer. And I know there will be a bunch of fucking people yelling at each other about what went wrong in LA. But here's the funniest thing. The phone is ringing off the hook right now from people not in LA who are like, that can never happen here. What do we do? And I love that.

• 2:18:59Tim Ferriss?

  No permanent record. Want to talk about it? It's a story. What's happening? Why now?

• 2:19:04Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. I don't know what to tell a 20 something to do right now, other than to be a fucking sherpa or a guide or build some in-person analog experience. But I do know that there is this cultural hole where these young people today haven't been given the chance to fuck up. They just can't. There's fucking, did you ever TP a house?

• 2:19:27Tim Ferriss?

  No, but I had my house TP'd. I had to deal with it.

• 2:19:32Chris Sacca?

  Like.

• 2:19:32Tim Ferriss?

  I did others. I did plenty of other stuff that got me in trouble, but.

• 2:19:36Chris Sacca?

  Nobody gets to do that anymore because they're on a Ring camera, man. Nobody gets to egg anything. And to go back to Mark Grober, he's the one who built that fucking glitter fart bomb package.

• 2:19:46Tim Ferriss?

  When my one close friend finally got his license or it was probably driver's permit, we shouldn't have even been out because I was a townie, right? On Eastern Long Island.

• 2:19:55Chris Sacca?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:56Tim Ferriss?

  We had a lot of tension with the city people, as we would call it. So we would drive around and I had a like a wrist rocket, a slingshot and we had, we just bought a huge bag of grapes and just went around, not shooting at people, but like we'd shoot at things next to the people. And I'm not proud of that. We didn't hurt anybody, but we got in a lot of trouble. We got in a good amount of trouble.

• 2:20:21Chris Sacca?

  I think we got in lots of trouble, but I think we have a generation of kids who didn't get a chance to get into any trouble. And I'm starting to believe more and more that trouble is actually one of those things that informs all the other things that we do. Like, did you ever talk somebody into getting you beer?

• 2:20:36Tim Ferriss?

  I talked somebody into getting me, it wasn't really for like for a party, some hard liquor, wasn't beer, I went straight to the hard stuff.

• 2:20:45Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, okay. Let me ask you a question. Did you ever have a party with your parents liquor and then pour a little bit of water back in the vodka to make it look like the level went back up?

• 2:20:55Tim Ferriss?

  Because my parents are hoarders and the house wouldn't have worked, but I saw that done. I did plenty of other stuff too. And like things that are like, there's no real victim, right? Like, I remember, that's like, I remember, for instance, my elementary school, same friend who drove me around with the grapes and the slingshot, he was the tallest kid in the class, also very smart, equally open to maybe deviant behavior. And at the elementary school, there was this huge wall where kids would just whack tennis balls back and forth, kind of like racquetball, but Long Island style. And nobody knew what they were doing, so they would hit all the tennis balls up onto the roof eventually. This was like 80s, right?

• 2:21:39Tim Ferriss?

  There were all these amazingly cheesy ninja movies and there was the, I think it was called the Asian World of Martial Arts Catalog, which shipped like completely dangerous grappling hooks and stuff from Philadelphia, I think it was. And so I had some kind of ninja tooling and we figured out a way with rope to get up on the school and then use garbage bags to like temporarily steal all of the tennis balls. And it turned into, I mean, for this small school, it was quite the scandal at the time. I mean, there was a manhunt. And then we returned the tennis balls at some point and all sins were forgiven, or at least they stopped, they called off the hounds. But, you know, stuff like that.

• 2:22:22Chris Sacca?

  Yes, this is what I'm talking about. I feel like the statute of limitations is expired for most of these things, but they are formative. Hawkeye, actually, previously I remember Hawkeye had a music store in Park City, Utah, where I was a resident and we were in business together.

• 2:22:39Tim Ferriss?

  Wait, what were you in business doing?

• 2:22:42Chris Sacca?

  We had a few flimflams. So, one of the things we did was, first of all, we had to build some community. So, one of the things we did was like, we would sell you the Britney Spears album, but you had to sign your name and address posted at the front desk, like, almost like a sex offender registry, but it was like a Britney buyer registry. And so, that offends, like, one out of 10 people, but it builds community with 99 out of 100 people. And so, but one of the things we would do to make a little bit extra cash is, well, we had a buddy who was the postman. And so, he would come into the store and he would say, hey, you know, there's all these people sign up for that Columbia House shit. And then they move away. Park City was like a town full of transients. And they're like, so I get all these fucking CDs, like, are they worth anything? And so, we like scanned the UPC symbols and were like,

• 2:23:27Chris Sacca?

  oh, my God, they're the same UPC symbols as the retail ones. So, we would do a little trade, you know, like, hey, pick out something from the store and give us a bunch of those Christina Aguilera's. And that helped us stock fewer CDs. But then we figured out, you could take them to Walmart and return them. So, if we really needed drinking money, we would return like 25 Limp Bizkit CDs to Walmart. And they'd be like, what is this shit? And be like, oh, everyone at my birthday party thought it'd be so funny to buy me a fucking Limp Bizkit CD. And then you remember, CDs weren't cheap, right? So, you do these things 20 or 25 at a time. And you're like, I'm rich, motherfucker, let's go. And so,

• 2:24:09Chris Sacca?

  we also did a thing where it was around the time that Napster started, and we realized, like, music stores weren't for long. And so, we did this thing where it was a restocking fee, but we would let kids buy a CD, take it home, rip it, presumably. I don't know what they were doing, the privacy of their home, but if they returned the CD the next day, we would charge them a $3.50 restocking fee. So, essentially, what we were doing is reselling the same CD over and over again, keeping our margin. I'm sure the record company wouldn't have loved it, but it was a very customer-friendly policy.

• 2:24:46Chris Sacca?

  But that's what it took to keep a music store afloat.

• 2:24:48Tim Ferriss?

  In Park City.

• 2:24:49Chris Sacca?

  In, you know, 2000, 2001.

• 2:24:51Tim Ferriss?

  What's the format of no permanent record? What do you hope it's?

• 2:24:55Chris Sacca?

  I don't know, Tim.

• 2:24:57Tim Ferriss?

  Well, what are you gonna do?

• 2:24:59Chris Sacca?

  No, I'm having conversations with, I'm starting to have conversations with successful people where they talk about the small crimes and misdemeanors they committed, the parties they threw, the lies they told to their parents, the clubs they talked their way into, the fake IDs they made, everything along the way, the papers that they plagiarized, just everything they did, and how that actually built some sense of humanity, resilience, like the shit they got themselves into and the shit they got themselves out of. And like, if it ends up just being the last archaeological record of what it was like when we were human still, when we weren't judged at every fucking moment, and I actually just feel like culturally, it's the right time.

• 2:25:43Chris Sacca?

  Because you do this, two years ago, and everyone's like, fuck you, privileged assholes, other people. And I'm like, we're over, we're past privileged assholes. We're just like, hey, that's kind of fucking amazing. You were able to, you chalked IDs. And what I found is, is I tell more of these stories of like, without a fake ID in college, you had nowhere to go, right? So you needed one. So we would either make them by like, doing some shit with some cool overlay contact paper, or we would find some fucking guy down in the deep city where you'd stand in front of a goddamn chalkboard of a huge ass driver's license to pretend you were McLovin. You know, like, I mean, we would do all kinds of things when there was room to still cut some corners, take some liberties.

• 2:26:24Tim Ferriss?

  Let me reciprocate for a second. So I thought getting a fake ID would be a great idea. I don't know how old I was, I was like 14 or something. And my buddy and I, same guy who was part of the other two fiascos, we decided to take a bus from Eastern Long Island, like three hours out, to go into the city. Now, this isn't like post Giuliani, post Bloomberg, like friendly New York City with like biking lanes through Times Square. This is like much grittier New York City. So we get there. To go on this adventure and literally within hours, we are both conned and mugged.

• 2:27:08Chris Sacca?

  And like, Yes, yes.

• 2:27:11Tim Ferriss?

  Within hours of getting there, our first time in New York City, basically. And then no cell phones, right? So we get separated. These two guys separate us to scam us. Then proceed to like steal all our shit. Then we get separated. I go to the police station and I'm like, my buddy, he might be dead. And they're like, where is he dead? And I'm like, this intersection. And they're like, yeah, that's not our jurisdiction, pal. Good luck. And I was like, what? First interaction with like, asking police for help. I'm like, oh, that didn't work out as I thought it would. Then had to take the buses home, each of us thinking the other was dead. That was a real growth experience. It's a learning opportunity.

• 2:27:48Chris Sacca?

  Dude, I, I love it.

• 2:27:50Tim Ferriss?

  Not recommending people do like the most reckless shit imaginable, but it's like,

• 2:27:54Chris Sacca?

  No, but maybe, but maybe. But maybe the planet's never been safer. Well, America's never been safer. There are definitely places I wouldn't want to hang out right now. But dude, I, um, God, what is that guy's name? But I once went to a, I went to a casino in Vegas. I was broke. I was with my buddies. We were staying at the Sundowner. We split a room four ways. It was a trade, actually. I think somebody owed us money at the record store. And so we traded out. He had a buddy. We got a room at the Sundowner. Okay. Rest in peace, Sundowner. And so, by the way, at one point while we were staying in that room, two queen beds, four guys, like my buddy nudges me and I'm like, what dude, what? Like, we'd been out all night, you know, it's probably two in the afternoon and he nudges me. He's like, bro, look, look.

• 2:28:37Chris Sacca?

  I'm like, what? He's like, look. And I looked down at the foot of the bed. At the foot of the bed is like a 12 to 14 year old. Southeast Asian kid standing there staring at us.

• 2:28:51Chris Sacca?

  He looked as scared as I did. And we were just like, what is he here for? Our kidneys? What is he fucking doing? Oh my God. And we were frozen and my buddy was not small. Like we were in every position to like, but we were just absolutely frozen. Like what is happening here? And eventually the kid ran out and we called down and apparently he had a key card that also worked in our door and went into the wrong room. There was some innocent explanation for it. Yeah, sure. We still think he was maybe there for some organs, but either way, like, That night, we're out, we find ourselves at Harrah's. A buddy says, hey, let's go get our shoe shine. What do you say? So we go over the shoe shine and we're there and there's a fucking pimp over there. I mean, full on like players ball situation and he's got suede hush puppies on.

• 2:29:37Chris Sacca?

  So there's no reason he should be at the fucking shoe shine. But we start talking to this guy. I'm embarrassed. I can't remember his name. I gotta ask my buddy immediately after wrapping this. But we start talking shit and you know, and I consider myself pretty good at Rochambeau, rock, paper, scissors. You know, I consider myself above average. Like I, it's a, it's a talent I've honed over time. It is not a game of luck. It is a game of skill. And so I challenged this guy to a little Rochambeau. And I remember the stakes were if I win, we get to hang out with you tonight.

• 2:30:07Chris Sacca?

  So I beat the guy in Rochambeau. I mean, it was that I, that wasn't even a question. So I thought this would be fucking great. Well, in ethnography, we get to go hang out with this fucking pimp. But we found ourselves in some fucking hot water that night. I mean, this is pre the hangover movie. We were in a couple of situations.

• 2:30:29Chris Sacca?

  Those were formative experiences.

• 2:30:34Chris Sacca?

  I feel like kids these days haven't been in danger. They haven't been in situations like, how the fuck do we get out of this one? They haven't regretted anything. They haven't bullshit of their way in or out. I feel like no one's gotten a chance to sell anything. Almost everyone I know who's been a successful entrepreneur sold something.

• 2:30:50Tim Ferriss?

  For sure.

• 2:30:52Chris Sacca?

  Whether it was candy in school or door to door, or they sold something. And sometimes that just meant they worked in a foot locker or they worked in a radio shack or they worked in a computer store and sold software. But almost all of them know how to sell something. And I feel like the insight of that comes from sales, but a lot of those sales were shady. You know, like, how do you market up? How do you sell those? I remember we had a cable guy in Washington DC.

• 2:31:15Tim Ferriss?

  The guy who tricked out your box, like the black box?

• 2:31:18Chris Sacca?

  Yes. Yes. And then he came back and stole everything in our house, but.

• 2:31:25Chris Sacca?

  We didn't realize that Lucky's assistant was casing everything.

• 2:31:27Tim Ferriss?

  Lucky for Lucky.

• 2:31:28Chris Sacca?

  And so, yes, but I need more stories like that in my life. If we really are going down in flames, I want to record for posterity. All the banged up shit we did that informed who we were. And like after hanging out with high school buddies this weekend, I was just reminded of how important that is, the bonds that come from that. You and I have a mutual buddy, I won't say because I don't know if he said this out loud, but he and his wife, their 11th grade daughter came home buzzed like a month ago. And she was trying to sneak up and they kind of were like, are you been drinking? And she's like, uh, in there. He couldn't help himself, but the words that came out of his mouth were like, thank God. And she's like, what? And the mom was like, oh, whew, what a relief. And the girl was so like, what are you talking about?

• 2:32:13Chris Sacca?

  They're like, we just thought you'd never do it. Like, we thought you'd never fucking try it. It was such a mind fuck, bro. I just worry, I mean, Crystal, my wife, whose GPA was point oh two points higher than mine in the same academic program at Georgetown, but Crystal would get all her schoolwork done and then go rave. And I mean, the hardcore like DC and Baltimore rave scene rave. And like, would just get out there and be like, I've been in some situations, you know, I've been in some rooms where I'm like, holy fuck, we better get out of here before shit gets out, you know, or before the cops show up. But even in high school, she lived on a compound, she would crush her academics and then she would literally crawl out of the window, sneak past the embassy compound guards, get

• 2:32:55Chris Sacca?

  in a cab at midnight and go party with her friends in Delhi and then sneak her way back on to an American embassy compound without Marines noticing her. That's fucking rad, you know? Like, that's part of what makes Crystal so fucking awesome right now. And I need to memorialize these things for the benefit of humanity before we're all obviated, like these kids who have these incredible GPAs and this test taking, I think it might be useless. I think they might have optimized for useless skills. And I think the only thing that might keep us going is that randomness, that unpredictability, those flaws, those fuckups, the things that make us banged up, the things where we make bad decisions, where we're self indulgent, where we have bad, like, I'm lucky that I

• 2:33:37Chris Sacca?

  have all daughters, but when they invite boys over to the house, I watch boys make bad decisions repeatedly.

• 2:33:44Chris Sacca?

  And at first I was like, wait, why is the patriarchy a thing when I watched them be so fucking stupid and take so many dumb risks? I'm like, of course you were gonna get hurt when you jumped off that thing. What in your head thought you weren't going to? Of course that was gonna break. And then I started realizing, you know why we have a fucking patriarchy? Because that randomness is something that no one knows how to count on. I've had to teach our team, the number one thing you can be in this business is unpredictable. Feed into the fact, I am known as mercurial, I burn bridges, I will not hesitate to fucking fight you, I wear the stupid shirts, I don't give a shit about much, I've been known to just light it on fire. And guess what? People take me seriously as a result.

• 2:34:27Chris Sacca?

  I haven't backed down from all those fucking character flaws I have that are very self-destructive. But I am all gas, no fucking brakes, as you know. Although in our line, we call it no gas, no brakes. But we need to cultivate more of that. If we have any hope as a fucking species, we just need to, I'm sorry. That's where I dropped the fucking mic. So that's no permanent record. Tim Ferriss, you are going to be one of the very first guests. And we're gonna go deep into all your hijinks, all your fucking skeletons.

• 2:34:56Tim Ferriss?

  I'm open.

• 2:34:57Chris Sacca?

  No felonies. The main rule is no felonies.

• 2:34:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, no felonies, I'm clear there.

• 2:35:00Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. I mean, if you have murdered, I worry.

• 2:35:04Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, that time. Mask grave.

• 2:35:07Chris Sacca?

  It was justifiable homicide.

• 2:35:09Tim Ferriss?

  Shitty, it's more lies.

• 2:35:10Chris Sacca?

  Justifiable homicide, but no hijinks, hijinks, flimflams, like bamboozling.

• 2:35:17Tim Ferriss?

  It's gotta be in your intro when you're like, welcome to no permanent record.

• 2:35:20Chris Sacca?

  Little razzle dazzle.

• 2:35:21Tim Ferriss?

  Where the flimflams bamboozling has a home.

• 2:35:24Chris Sacca?

  Yes. Do you know any card tricks?

• 2:35:26Tim Ferriss?

  I used to know quite a few card tricks. I've let that atrophy, so I don't anymore.

• 2:35:32Chris Sacca?

  Our kids are good at card tricks. It's important and we have, I have rigged decks and stuff. I think it's important to know how to do some fucking magic tricks because magic is storytelling. It is deceit. It is understanding to look for the angles. I love that. I love when kids know riddles. I love when they have bar bets that are impossible. I think everyone should be able to tell a good joke. You're talking about, I'm back to like my syllabus, you know, of how to fucking survive. It's not just like the survivalist of what's in your go bag and how to handle a 30 round mag and how to dress your own meat and shit. It's like, how do you actually tell a story? How do you make somebody who has no reason to like you?

• 2:36:08Tim Ferriss?

  Maybe the semester finale for your seminars, people have to get up and do a two to five minute comedy set. Something like that. That's the final exam.

• 2:36:20Chris Sacca?

  In front of a bunch of people in MAGA hats. Yeah. I'm gonna find the worst fucking hecklers.

• 2:36:26Tim Ferriss?

  Whatever your nightmare audience is. It could be a bunch of ultra left libs or whatever.

• 2:36:30Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. Or, yeah. You model who's actually on stage and like, here we go. These are not your people. I mean, that's one of the things is right now we all get to choose who we hang out with. And the internet has allowed us to hang out with people who are just like us. And nobody hangs out with people who aren't like them anymore. And that bums me out.

• 2:36:47Tim Ferriss?

  Which by the way, even if you want to hang out with people who are unlike you by virtue of the customized feed and sort of algorithmically tailored servings, it's very hard, even if you try. And if you do try and you're like, I want to take a sampling of this. We're in a couple of, well, one group thread in particular, where I take great pleasure in fucking up people's feeds because I'll send, you know, whatever.

• 2:37:19Chris Sacca?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:37:20Tim Ferriss?

  A video of some like gorgeous chick doing squats that are very suggestive. And that's her entire account on Instagram. And before you know it, like you send that to somebody and you've just dropped like a cherry bomb into their algorithm and then that's 90% of what they see. So it's very hard to actually live in multiple worlds. You are going to get painted into a corner because that's how advertising is sold against you.

• 2:37:43Chris Sacca?

  But in real life, that's happening. And that's why I am hopeful for the resurgence of the rest of America. You know, Steve Case was on the rise of the rest and JD Vance, bless him and his weird path, but he was on to that early, too. You know, 82% of the money from the IRA, the big Biden climate bill, went to red districts. It's the green little secret. There are more clean energy jobs in Texas than there are oil and gas jobs. The Republicans' green little secret. But that's just the reality because it's good fucking business. If you want to work with good people who know the tools, who know the engineering, that's where they are. They're in the heartland. And I really do hope we are going to see the resurgence of some of those communities. Because for me, raising kids in a community like that is like going back in time, where we know our neighbors,

• 2:38:27Chris Sacca?

  we know our kids are safe. I love hearing the stories of my kids' friends who just, they work for a living. They do really incredible shit. By the way, it's funny how few people know anything about me. I got invited to do a Shark Tank panel, judging for like, elementary school entrepreneurial business plan class. You know, they were just fucking around. They had product ideas. And one of the kids walked in and was like, oh, my God, you got a real shark. And the like, the superintendent and the principal who put the whole thing together, like, what are you talking about? And they're like, he's a shark from Shark Tank. And they're like, oh, we just needed some dads. We only had moms volunteer. So we sent out a note for dads. I actually thought, I thought they were like, it was specifically targeted me. Nobody had any fucking idea. So it was amazing. Like,

• 2:39:12Chris Sacca?

  I'm in like, I'm in camouflage here. I go out in a t-shirt and glasses instead of a cowboy shirt and no glasses. I'm camouflage. I love it. So.

• 2:39:19Tim Ferriss?

  All right, Kristoff, we're coming in on just over three hours now.

• 2:39:23Chris Sacca?

  Tim, I gotta, I gotta just say something though, bro. I'm worried about you.

• 2:39:27Tim Ferriss?

  You're worried about me?

• 2:39:28Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, I'm worried about this podcast. There's been no like toxic masculinity. We didn't talk about testosterone and where it's been. There's like very little hatred. And, you know, there was just very little like incendiary content. I didn't hear any conspiracy theories, no pseudoscience, no like political opportunism. I mean, you're just like, this whole.

• 2:39:52Tim Ferriss?

  Leaving a lot on the table.

• 2:39:54Chris Sacca?

  Let's get some valuable and actionable content inspiration for young people. And people are like, what is this shit? You should be baiting outrage, contriving virality, man. I mean, do we even know how to podcast, bro?

• 2:40:04Tim Ferriss?

  I know. I sometimes want to do the same thing. And you will notice this is the first time I've had, it only took me whatever, almost 800 episodes to get a reasonably professional looking mic setup for these.

• 2:40:15Chris Sacca?

  Look at that. I hope whatever those labels are sponsoring you.

• 2:40:21Tim Ferriss?

  You can't take them off, which is hilarious.

• 2:40:24Chris Sacca?

  By the way, I can't believe you didn't ask me for a book list. Ready book list?

• 2:40:28Tim Ferriss?

  You didn't ask me. I did for your syllabus, but you dodged and gave me poetry.

• 2:40:31Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. Okay. Anxious Generation and Coddling of the American Mind and Generations by Gene Twenge, who works at Jonathan Haidt, was informed me more about our generation as well as how to work with other people. There's no agenda to that book, but it's powerful. The Coming Wave by Suleiman, I think is, does the most even handed job of assessing the future of AI, particularly by someone in the business. End of the World is Just the Beginning. Do you know that guy? Peter? He's a fucking maniac. I think it's just provocative. He also does these really fun little YouTube updates from hikes and like.

• 2:41:01Tim Ferriss?

  End of the World is Just the Beginning?

• 2:41:03Chris Sacca?

  It's just the beginning. What's his name? It starts with a Z is last name.

• 2:41:06Tim Ferriss?

  Peter Zeihan, it looks like.

• 2:41:08Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Thanks. I love Van Nystat's Book Report on the Fourth Turning. It's just thought provoking again. Homegrown, a book by Jeffrey Toobin about Tim McVeigh, is I think a canary in a coal mine book. Tim McVeigh was from my hometown.

• 2:41:22Tim Ferriss?

  No shit. Didn't know that.

• 2:41:24Chris Sacca?

  His mom was our travel agent. His sister worked at Wendy's. He bought his ammo at the same place where we bought our fishing supplies. But that book explains what happens when the factory closes down and people become radicalized. I encourage people to read it. The thing that people don't know about Tim McVeigh is he had a photographic memory. There were 671 boxes of evidence at his trial that were all him reciting every single person he ever spoken to, every meeting he had. He knew everything. So there's no mystery about his story. Stolen Focus by Jonathan Harari. You know that one? Just amazing. I think it's like the best like digital detox.

• 2:41:59Tim Ferriss?

  Stolen Focus. Oh, I this and I have not read that one. I think he wrote Chasing the Ghost. I might be misquoting.

• 2:42:09Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, maybe. Meditation for Mortals is a great one.

• 2:42:12Tim Ferriss?

  Oliver Berkman? Yeah, he's great.

• 2:42:14Chris Sacca?

  So good. Psychology money, we mentioned. The best piece of fiction I've read recently is Rejection by Tony, can't say his last name, told him to watch.

• 2:42:25Tim Ferriss?

  Wait, what was the name?

• 2:42:26Chris Sacca?

  It's amazing. It's called Rejection by Tony, Tony T.

• 2:42:31Tim Ferriss?

  Tony, Tony T. Tony Tula.

• 2:42:34Chris Sacca?

  You'll see what I mean.

• 2:42:35Tim Ferriss?

  Something like that.

• 2:42:37Chris Sacca?

  Thank you.

• 2:42:37Tim Ferriss?

  That's a long one.

• 2:42:38Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, that is. It'll put some people out of their comfort zone for sure. That guy has his finger on culture and linguistics more than anything I've read recently. You know, I've shared that with other author friends who were like, fuck. Yeah.

• 2:42:51Tim Ferriss?

  Cool.

• 2:42:51Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The every is great fiction. Did you listen to McConaughey's autobiography?

• 2:42:56Tim Ferriss?

  I listened to some of it. I had him on the podcast years ago to talk about it, which was amazing. And I misquoted just briefly Johann Hari's book, Chasing the Scream and Lost Connections. Okay. Lost Connections is the one I read in full, which I thought was great. That's about isolation, loneliness and things to do about it in a modern world. I thought that was very well done. Stolen Focus is the one that you were talking about.

• 2:43:18Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, it's so good, dude. It was given to us as a gift and it really changed our media diet for sure and our online diet. I try and read everything John Ronson does and listen to it. By the way, I was just gonna say Matthew McConaughey's audiobook. You can't read it.

• 2:43:30Tim Ferriss?

  You gotta listen to it.

• 2:43:31Chris Sacca?

  And so the every, I love fucking Eggers, but the every seems to be increasingly prophetic right now. Robin Sloan's fiction, Moonbound and Penumbra are great. Do you watch Silo? Do you read the Wool series?

• 2:43:42Tim Ferriss?

  So I'm gonna admit that I haven't. I do know Hugh and he's amazing, but I have not yet delved into that because I know that I'll want to consume all of it.

• 2:43:52Chris Sacca?

  I knew you guys knew each other from like Arctic Adventures 2 and shit, right? And like Iceland.

• 2:43:56Tim Ferriss?

  We spent time in Japan and elsewhere. He was on the podcast a while back. He's such an incredible experimentalist and innovator when it comes to publishing also. Really, really impressive.

• 2:44:08Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, he wrote those things and just threw them up there, right?

• 2:44:11Tim Ferriss?

  He is one of the most thoughtful, unafraid lateral thinkers in writing and publishing that I've met. He's a smart guy.

• 2:44:19Chris Sacca?

  I even read the Wool series after watching the first season of Silo. Fucking love it. I think it's great. I think it's prophetic and amazing. And then I mentioned Kelly Corrigan. I just think that's grounding human shit. I think Kelly Corrigan has her, she has a podcast too, but I, I love her books. I think talking about relationships, kids dying, but in a way that is just like self-deprecating, real America. It's just like an antidote, particularly for like your tech-heavy, seriously online audience. I think that's great. You want a kid's book? It's the Pirates series, The Pirates and an Adventure with Communists, The Pirates and Adventure with Darwin. Those books are so fucking good. You'll laugh at them even as you read them to children.

• 2:44:59Tim Ferriss?

  I feel like you've got more.

• 2:45:00Chris Sacca?

  I tried to do my homework, Tim.

• 2:45:01Tim Ferriss?

  You have more on offer. You got, you got anything, anything else locked and loaded there?

• 2:45:06Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, my hundred dollar purchase.

• 2:45:07Tim Ferriss?

  What's your hundred dollar purchase?

• 2:45:09Chris Sacca?

  You know what are amazing? Have you ever written on stone paper? These notebooks by Karst?

• 2:45:14Tim Ferriss?

  I have not.

• 2:45:14Chris Sacca?

  Do you know these things? It's actually, it's stone and there's no more enjoyable experience than writing on stone. So karststonepaper.com. I don't own it or anything like that, but I highly recommend it.

• 2:45:25Tim Ferriss?

  Amazing. Is it just the hand feel? Is it just the, the actual tactile sensation of writing on it that you like?

• 2:45:32Chris Sacca?

  Oh, and how the pen moves across. Oh, yes. You'll, you'll, it's, it's sensual, sensuous, sensual. It's pretty special and you know, I'll say two other things. One, Dola Dira, it's my favorite booze right now. It's an all-natural Campari and Aperol substitute with none of the bullshit in it, none of the fake dyes.

• 2:45:51Tim Ferriss?

  What was it called? Dora the Explorer? No.

• 2:45:53Chris Sacca?

  Dola Dira, D O L A D I R A. You know who makes it? Richard Betts and Joe Marchese.

• 2:45:59Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, really? Awesome.

• 2:46:01Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, your homies. Yeah. The Como's Tequila guys. Como's is the highest rated tequila in the land right now. Okay. My number one purchase, under a hundred dollars that I stand by. I've cited it before and it just happened again. I never show up at a party without mullet wakes. They change fucking everything.

• 2:46:21Chris Sacca?

  I was just at a New Year's Eve party and I showed up with the mullet wigs and it just broke everyone to pieces. It was amazing. The most staid fucking guys. Dude, multiple guys were like, can I take this home? Because my wife thinks I'm hot in it. And so mullet wigs changed everything. And so Amazon will do like, look, get some Dog the Bounty Hunter style ones. Get some ones with like the built in Willie Nelson, you know, American flag bandana. Get some Curly Bob Ross ones in there just to shake it up a little bit. You know, you can throw on like a neo punk like white 80s hair wig, but just fucking wigs. They next level everything. I'm here 10 years later, Tim, to tell you that that still holds

• 2:47:04Tim Ferriss?

  durable mullet wigs.

• 2:47:06Chris Sacca?

  Oh, God, yes.

• 2:47:10Chris Sacca?

  Next time, 10 years from now, we'll talk about best playlists on Spotify that has been curated by AI and fed directly into our brain chips.

• 2:47:17Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, next time. Right. Most commonly searched terms on Pornhub. Next time. That's going to

• 2:47:22Chris Sacca?

  When my agent is talking to your agent. Hey, nobody got time for this. Bro, I miss you. I hope to see you in Texas really soon.

• 2:47:29Tim Ferriss?

  Miss you too, man. Yeah, we are going to see each other in Texas.

• 2:47:31Chris Sacca?

  Hey, by the way, have you ever been to Wyoming?

• 2:47:33Tim Ferriss?

  There's a great ranch for sale.

• 2:47:35Chris Sacca?

  There is a ranch. It's incredible. Five Pounds Ranch. It's an incredible place. The fishing is abundant. Tricked out the barn. It's I used to work from there. Fun. You can host. It's an event spot. I mean, if you really want to go and if you care about skiing, backcountry skiing, you know, you know, it's right there.

• 2:47:52Tim Ferriss?

  Plops some Bitcoin mining servers in the barn. Worst case scenario. It's gotta be a lot of good ventilation.

• 2:48:01Chris Sacca?

  Dude, you're amazing. Thank you for doing this, dude. It's been a long time.

• 2:48:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it has been a long time, man. It's great to see you. Fam's good?

• 2:48:09Chris Sacca?

  Family's great. Tim, I need to get you on that train.

• 2:48:12Tim Ferriss?

  I know. I know. It's not for lack of trying, although some of my audience has become very, very adamant and even aggressive with me about my lack of producing kids at this point. And I'm like, well, look, why don't you walk a mile in my shoes and then show me how easy it is? Let's see what that looks like.

• 2:48:29Chris Sacca?

  Yeah, but that's the thing, dude. You just put on different shoes. And sometimes there's like a little bit of puke in them or something like that.

• 2:48:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:35Chris Sacca?

  Or like, okay, really quick story. You ready?

• 2:48:37Tim Ferriss?

  I'm ready.

• 2:48:38Chris Sacca?

  It's kid and shoe related. We have a good friend here. Who's an OBGYN. She's hilarious. I'm not going to give her name. But she's a local and we love her to death. Smart, hilarious. She was telling a story about how, you know, she's an OBGYN. She got the page in the middle of the night. You gotta go deliver the baby. So she climbs out of bed, kiss her husband goodbye, throws on some Crocs, goes out to the hospital and the delivery, like, you know, she stitches the gal up, there's some blood, et cetera. And the nurse says, hey, let me clean up those Crocs for you. And so she pulls the Crocs off and she holds them up, both in front of the doctor, the nurse is holding them up and in front of the, the woman who just gave birth. And on them, you know, those like jewels, you know, like you can spell shit out.

• 2:49:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:23Chris Sacca?

  It says, D's nuts.

• 2:49:28Chris Sacca?

  Because they belong to her 13 year old son.

• 2:49:34Chris Sacca?

  She didn't realize it as she was walking out of the house. She, when she walked out with the D's nuts Crocs on. Oh, that's the most heartwarming shit.

• 2:49:42Tim Ferriss?

  Screenplay, I think.

• 2:49:44Chris Sacca?

  Oh my God. That is just, you can't write shit like that. That like, so anyway. Tim, it is really like, people talk all these platitudes about it and stuff. And I'll be honest, it wasn't like the day, a lot of people talk about the magic that your kid comes out. Like my life changed forever. I didn't always feel that. I was like, oh shit, I gotta like, do some shit and take care of Crystal and there's poo everywhere now and somebody's crying and I haven't slept in a while. But, but as time goes on. You know, our kids went to camp this summer and Crystal and I, at first we're like, hey, empty nesters, let's party. And we did. But at the same time, we're like, fuck, we miss our best friends, man. We've got three incredible kids who are our besties. And I understand that mixed emotion of like, when the kids go off to college, I see this happening with a lot of our friends

• 2:50:27Chris Sacca?

  who had kids before we did. That like both relief of like, all right, we can go travel and shit like that now. But on the other hand, like, it's kind of lonely, you know? These kids are fucking great. I love it. We really entertain each other and I've loved being on that journey with them. And so I really do hope we can get you on that program.

• 2:50:44Tim Ferriss?

  Oh yeah. I mean, that's, that's the intention.

• 2:50:48Chris Sacca?

  Okay. Can I tell the quick story from that dinner party without mentioning the name of the person?

• 2:50:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, sure.

• 2:50:55Chris Sacca?

  Okay. All right. So this, your audience needs to know this, Tim. So Crystal and I are hosting a dinner in New York City. We don't get there that often, but we love to bring like close friends together. Again, ruthless about the invites. No plus ones. We just know that if you're coming to dinner, everyone's going to be awesome. So there's no seating chart. We did seat you next to this person intentionally, though. This is a famous actress who is single. I mean, absolute smoke show and within Tim's league and not entirely disinterested in Tim, like up for it, you know, like open, open to the concept. We'd kind of, you know, tilled the soil. I wouldn't say we planted

• 2:51:40Chris Sacca?

  the seed, but we'd till the soil. It was on the table, like household name. So we sit them next to each other. Things are going great. The meal is wonderful. The wine is great. The conversation is stimulating. Tim is a great person to have at a dinner conversation. He can talk about anything. He's genuinely interested in other people. He likes to ask questions, not because it's for a podcast, but because he likes to learn from anybody. And he realizes that any single person you talk to has a story. Give them a chance to tell it. So things are going really well. We're starting to talk about meaningful shit. And at one point, she says, Hey, Tim, when do you feel most present?

• 2:52:19Tim Ferriss?

  Now, there's one piece of information that's missing here, which is her dietary preferences.

• 2:52:25Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. I didn't know if that would make her too identifiable. So, but she's vegan. She's well known as vegan. Tim knows she's vegan. Animal rights type person, but not like rub it in your face vegan. There's plenty of meat on the table. She's fine with it all being there. But she goes, Tim, when do you feel most present? Like, that's how much you guys were vibing. That's how well it was going.

• 2:52:47Tim Ferriss?

  We're also, this is at a point in the meal where it's sort of like a Jeffersonian situation. So there's a lot of silence at this point.

• 2:52:54Chris Sacca?

  Yes, yes. We are all paying attention. That's right. That's right. It's a small table. There's 12 people at this table and tiny, tiny place. We're at ZZ's Clam Bar in New York, tiny, one room spot, two seat bar, but we're at a table for 12 and we're elbow to elbow, eating incredible food. And there's vibe, there's energy there. And I mean, Tim's a fucking magnet, right? And so she says,

• 2:53:18Chris Sacca?

  Tim, when do you feel most present? And Tim, what did you say without even having to inhale? Without even having to take a breath?

• 2:53:25Tim Ferriss?

  I said, when I'm having sex doing psychedelics or hunting. Those were the three.

• 2:53:34Tim Ferriss?

  No sooner had the last syllable been uttered that Chris, who's like eight feet away, has had a few drinks, just goes, "Oh my God," and puts his head in his hands.

• 2:53:48Chris Sacca?

  I had never.

• 2:53:51Chris Sacca?

  I had never seen a ticket go up in flames faster than that. That was the most combustible element in the universe at that moment, was your chance to be with that woman.

• 2:54:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you know.

• 2:54:05Chris Sacca?

  That was fucking fascinating. She did raise her glass, for the record, she did raise her glass and cheers you for your-

• 2:54:10Tim Ferriss?

  She's a great sport.

• 2:54:12Chris Sacca?

  For your self-awareness, candor and authenticity.

• 2:54:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yep, no, she was a great sport.

• 2:54:16Chris Sacca?

  But any spark was immediately extinguished.

• 2:54:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you know.

• 2:54:19Chris Sacca?

  Have you guys kept in touch? Have you kept in touch or no?

• 2:54:21Tim Ferriss?

  We haven't, but we weren't really in touch beforehand. We'd met before.

• 2:54:25Chris Sacca?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:25Tim Ferriss?

  She's amazing, but I just don't have it in me to succeed pretending to be someone I'm not. You know what I mean?

• 2:54:35Chris Sacca?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:36Tim Ferriss?

  I'd rather go up in flames.

• 2:54:38Chris Sacca?

  No, I mean, I deeply admire it, right? Like, I've told you, like, my whole life's mission is about how to be internally driven rather than externally driven, how to be more honest, more authentic, more candid. I told you, I'm less patient because I'm trying to be me. And you are exactly that, so I deeply admire it. But it was just so funny.

• 2:55:00Tim Ferriss?

  It was funny.

• 2:55:00Chris Sacca?

  Because, because in the blink of an eye, you said-

• 2:55:03Tim Ferriss?

  Also because I didn't even think about it, like, it came out instantaneously.

• 2:55:07Chris Sacca?

  You did not inhale. It was on your exhale of the breath you had already taken. And so, but I love that your default, I say this to your audience, your primal default was to say the real thing rather than the thing that this unbelievable woman would have wanted to hear. That's fucking great, dude. That's what makes you you.

• 2:55:29Tim Ferriss?

  Thanks. Yeah, so work in progress, but I'm not sitting on my hands. I know that family's the next big adventure, so I'll get there. I will get there. And it's also, you know, what's been funny as I've dated is-

• 2:55:44Tim Ferriss?

  Forty seven now, and the tone of sort of like the line of questioning for some women I've been on dates with is like, what's wrong with you? Why are you broken? Like, what's going on? Like, you say you want family, you're forty seven. And I'm like, well, two things. If I were forty, would you be saying this? And they're like, no.

• 2:56:00Chris Sacca?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:00Tim Ferriss?

  I'm like, okay, well, I just got out of a, not so long ago, got out of a almost six year relationship. So the intention was to have kids and it didn't work out. Like, things don't work out. Better to figure that out before you have kids, I think, in a lot of cases. And then I was like, secondly, if I had been, what I've found is that women would be, some women would be more comfortable if I had been married and divorced once or twice.

• 2:56:25Chris Sacca?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:56:26Tim Ferriss?

  Than having not done it.

• 2:56:28Chris Sacca?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:28Tim Ferriss?

  But they wouldn't be asking that same question, which is interesting.

• 2:56:32Chris Sacca?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:32Tim Ferriss?

  And it's like, okay, all right. So maybe the concern is like, ah, this guy is like Peter Panning for the rest of his life and he doesn't want to commit. I'm like, well, I have two relationships that are longer than a lot of marriages. So that doesn't totally check out.

• 2:56:44Chris Sacca?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:44Tim Ferriss?

  But it's fascinating, modern dating.

• 2:56:47Chris Sacca?

  Yeah. Look, Crystal and I would have been a disaster if we'd gotten together anytime in those fourteen years I kept asking her out.

• 2:56:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:54Chris Sacca?

  I, you know, had a prior relationship, was divorced. I had a long term relationship after that that didn't work. If I hadn't gone through that stuff, I would not have understood what it meant to be in a healthy relationship, to have balance, to have intimacy, to all those things that need to happen. I wouldn't have known it. You know what was a funny exercise is we set up a really modest trust for our kids, basically so that, you know, houses, you have to do that estate planning shit. And so it's particularly not generous because we think mostly money fucks kids up. But we had to sit and decide at what age they would have any discretion over it. And we were thirty six at the time and we said thirty six.

• 2:57:32Chris Sacca?

  Because that was when we felt like we had finally like gotten our shit together. And like, maybe now I'd said it at forty five, I don't know. But, you know, my dad is seventy eight years old, plays pickleball three times a week with twenty somethings. He always tells us about which guy is complaining like, oh, I can't move like I could when I was eighteen. And I was like, fuck you, I'm seventy eight. But like, I do think age is an attitude. I do think it's mental. I do think like, I don't think that number actually matters, but I also don't think everyone's ready for it at every time. But I can just say that having kids has just been a remarkable, remarkable chapter. Crystal, if she was your guest on your podcast would tell you she never envisioned it for

• 2:58:11Chris Sacca?

  herself. It wasn't, she just did not think of herself as a mom. And now, you know, she identifies as a creative and, and an author of New York Times bestsellers and a designer and an investor and an entrepreneur. But maybe at the top of that list is a mom. And maybe second after that is a youth sports coach. I mean, we had basketball practice at our house last night for the fourth grade team. The, I forget what they're called. They have a new name, but you know, like it opens these new chapters of life that really remind you of the fundamental questions like, why the fuck are we here?

• 2:58:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:45Chris Sacca?

  You know? And I love going through the awkward middle school shit again. I love it. I love it. It's therapy for me, man. All those times you were stuffed in a locker, Tim, you get to deal with it again. It's amazing.

• 2:59:00Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that was relentless. Holy shit. It was just straight up Lord of the Flies. I mean, the like, there are really few safeguards at that point. Oh, man.

• 2:59:11Chris Sacca?

  That's one of the great things. They, they have a, the playground supervisor, whereas cowboy boots has an eye patch and a peg leg at the school here.

• 2:59:21Tim Ferriss?

  Incredible.

• 2:59:23Chris Sacca?

  I mean, everything is so fucking core in Montana. I love it. Everything is so like, suck it up. It's just fucking fantastic. We need more of it. So, all right. Dude, I love you.

• 2:59:34Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I love you too, buddy.

• 2:59:35Chris Sacca?

  I love you. I love you.

• 2:59:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I love you too, man. And give my best to the fan.

• 2:59:38Chris Sacca?

  I can't wait to hang.

• 2:59:39Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm gonna see you, yeah, not too long from now.

• 2:59:41Chris Sacca?

  And I love all of you listeners who are gonna visit fivepondsranch.com.

• 2:59:47Chris Sacca?

  And explore your Wyoming fantasies. Maybe you know, you build one of those like crypto based distributed organizations to buy it. That's fine. As long as it comes in US dollars. This is the best place to shelter your gains. Just telling you and to have a beautiful life in the outdoors.

• 3:00:04Tim Ferriss?

  Get with that.

• 3:00:05Chris Sacca?

  fivepondsranch.com. Five F I V E ponds ranch.com. Thank you.

• 3:00:12Tim Ferriss?

  All right, everybody. You heard it here first for 1995 with five easy installments. You could test out the ranch for yourself. Maybe not for that, that price point, but we'll see. And as always, we'll link to things that were mentioned in the podcast.

• 3:00:29Chris Sacca?

  That's a lot of things.

• 3:00:30Tim Ferriss?

  It's a lot of things. Yeah.

• 3:00:31Chris Sacca?

  God bless the AI that does that for you.

• 3:00:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Tim.blog/podcast. You'll be able to find it. Check out our first installment for Chris Saka's Wonder Years and early chapters.

• 3:00:43Chris Sacca?

  Wait, I also did that other episode where you had me read questions off of Reddit. That was fun, too.

• 3:00:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you did that. Yes.

• 3:00:49Chris Sacca?

  Remember, I didn't have a soundproof room, so I had to put my head under a blanket.

• 3:00:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 3:00:53Chris Sacca?

  And talk to GarageBand.

• 3:00:54Tim Ferriss?

  See, yeah, there's, there's, there is a, there's a.

• 3:00:57Chris Sacca?

  There is an episode 1.5. Yeah.

• 3:00:59Tim Ferriss?

  There's a 1.5. And as always, folks, thanks for tuning in. Be a bit kinder than is necessary to not just others, but yourself as well. Until next time. And thanks for tuning in. Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and 2 million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started

• 3:01:41Tim Ferriss?

  exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums, perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.

• 3:02:23Tim Ferriss?

  As many of you know, for the last few years, I've been sleeping on a Midnight Luxe mattress from today's sponsor, Helix Sleep. I also have one in the guest bedroom downstairs and feedback from friends has always been fantastic. Kind of over the top, to be honest. I mean, they frequently say it's the best night of sleep they've had in ages. What kind of mattresses? And what do you do? What's the magic juju? It's something they comment on without any prompting from me whatsoever. I also recently had a chance to test the Helix Sunset Elite in a new guest bedroom, which I sometimes sleep in, and I picked it for its very soft but supportive feel to help with some lower back pain that I've had. The Sunset Elite delivers exceptional comfort while putting the right support in the right spots. It is made with five tailored foam layers, including a base layer with full perimeter zoned lumbar

• 3:03:08Tim Ferriss?

  support, right where I need it, and middle layers with premium foam and micro coils that create a soft, contouring feel, which also means if I feel like I want to sleep on my side, I can do that without worrying about other aches and pains that might create. And with a luxurious pillow top for pressure relief, I look forward to nesting into that bed every night that I use it. The best part, of course, is that it helps me wake up feeling fully rested with a back that feels supple instead of stiff. That is the name of the game for me these days. Helix offers a 100-night sleep trial, fast free shipping and a 15-year warranty. So check it all out. And you, my dear listeners, can get between 20 and 27%

• 3:03:47Tim Ferriss?

  off plus two free pillows on all mattress orders. So go to helixsleep.com/tim to check it out. That's helixsleep.com/tim. With Helix, better sleep starts now.

• 3:04:02Tim Ferriss?

  Coffee, coffee, coffee. Man, do I love a great cup of coffee. Sometimes too much, then I'll have two, three, four, five cups of coffee. I do not love the jitters that come from that, or how even one really strong cup of coffee can impact my sleep, which I measure in all sorts of ways, which HRV and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But more recently, I have downshifted to something that feels good. I have been enjoying a more serene morning brew from this episode's sponsor, Mudwater. With only a fraction of the caffeine found in a cup of coffee, Mudwater gives me all the energy I need without the crash, without the fidgety crawling out of my skin kind of feeling. And it's delicious. It tastes as if cacao and chai had a beautiful love child. I drink it in the morning. And sometimes, right now, I'm exercising in the mountains and running around.

• 3:04:47Tim Ferriss?

  Sometimes I'll also add some milk and ice for a 2:00 PM. Yeah, maybe 1:00 PM if I'm behaving. Iced latte, pick-me-up type of thing. Mudwater's original blend contains four different types of mushrooms. Lion's mane for focus, cordyceps to promote energy. I used to use that when I was competing in all sorts of sports. And both chaga and reishi to support a healthy immune system. I also love that they make, and have for a long time, donations to support psychedelic therapeutics and research, including organizations like the Heroic Hearts Project, which I encourage people to check out, and the UC Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics. You, my dear listeners, can now try Mudwater with 15% off, plus a free rechargeable frother and free shipping by going to mudwtr.com/tim.

• 3:05:31Tim Ferriss?

  Now, listen to the spelling. This is important. That's M-U-D-W-T-R dot com slash Tim. So one more time, M-U-D-W-T-R dot com slash Tim for a free frother, 15% off, and a better morning routine.