How To Turn Suffering Into Purpose, Strength & Healing

Leave an Amazon Rating or Review for my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Dr. Caroline Fleck transformed 10 years of depression into her greatest superpower. I connected with Caroline about her book "Validation" and discovered how she turned decades of mental health struggles, including breast cancer and multiple sclerosis, into profound tools for healing others. Her story reveals why traditional therapy failed her but electric shock therapy provided the breakthrough she needed. The most powerful moment came when she shared how her darkest experiences became the key to validating suicidal patients in ways no one else could. This conversation will transform how you view suffering and teach you why validation, not just love, creates real connection in relationships. Buy Dr. Fleck’s book Validation: How the Skill Set That Revolutionized Psychology Will Transform Your Relationships, Increase Your Influence, and Change Your LifeIn this episode you will learn:How to transform your deepest suffering into your greatest superpower for helping othersHow electric shock therapy saved Dr. Fleck when traditional methods failedThe difference between validation and love in relationships and why both are essentialWhy validation is the universal antidote to the world's greatest pain - invalidationHow to support someone who is suffering without enabling destructive behaviorsFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1791For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Dr. Caroline Fleck – greatness.lnk.to/1774SCMuniba Mazari – greatness.lnk.to/1684SCLiz Gilbert – greatness.lnk.to/1681SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back my friend to another episode of the School of Greatness. We have the inspiring Stanford psychologist Dr. Caroline Fleck on for another episode. Talking about the one skill that can instantly transform any relationship, make you feel seen and stop emotional chaos. And we discuss her own journey through depression and overcoming breast cancer and how that shaped her deep understanding of what it means to feel seen. This is going to be very powerful for you because we're talking about why validation is more essential than love for lasting connection and emotional safety. And if you've ever been in a relationship that you say you love the person and the other person says that they love you,

• 0:39Lewis Howes?

  but for some reason, there's just constant chaos, constant stress, up and down, yo, yo, joy and sadness. Then you're missing out on this one key element that she talks about, which is validation. And you're missing out on communicating that validation in a specific way to your partner or that partner learning how to communicate it with you so that you feel validated. It's crazy when you look back and you see what this is really all about. You say, yeah, I really wanted my partner to do this one thing, but it's just about feeling seen and validated. And sometimes love is not enough. We need more than just love. You can love someone and not work out with them because you needed something else.

• 1:21Lewis Howes?

  And we talked about also the brain science behind why feeling seen helps regulate your nervous system. So if you have a nervous system that has constantly heightened or stressed or anxious or overwhelmed, or you have this anxiety, it's because you haven't really learned how to see yourself and be seen by others. And we're also going to be talking about the different tools to validate others in conflict, even when you disagree with them. So much coming from this episode. I hope you enjoy it. Make sure to share this with one friend and ask them to give you feedback and say, hey, what, what did you take away from this? What did you learn from this? Let's talk about this and improve together. And again, make sure to follow the show on Apple Podcast or Spotify. Please leave us a review. It would mean the world to me. I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode or any other episode in the review section.

• 2:06Lewis Howes?

  I'm so grateful for you. Let's go ahead and dive in. I'm here with Dr. Caroline Fleck. We're talking about your new book called Validation, which is how the skill set that revolutionized psychology will transform your relationships, increase your influence, and change your life. And in the world right now, I think a lot of people are suffering. There's a lot of sadness. There's a lot of suffering. And what I want to ask you about is how do we turn suffering into purpose and into our strength? You went through a 10-year period of your life where you were dealing with intense depression, you know, and there wasn't a solution for you. Or you felt invalidated on skills and solutions that could help you solve

• 2:50Lewis Howes?

  the suffering and depressed thoughts you were feeling. And it sounds to me like that's why you went into psychology, to see how can I heal and transform this? How can I understand my own mind, right? So I don't suffer anymore. And you shared with me also that you just went through an experience where you overcame breast cancer in the last year ago?

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was exactly. I finished radiation last February.

• 3:18Lewis Howes?

  What was that like for you, the whole experience?

• 3:20Speaker 01

  It was like one nightmare after another. Oh, it's so hard. I was also, I continued to see. So here's the thing, is that I figured out, you know, even though I kind of went into this field to like figure out how to treat myself, it very much became a survival mechanism for me, like relieving suffering in others. It's just my, that just sings to me. That felt like purpose. It is my purpose. And so I remember being with, in the doctor's office, and she says like, well, you won't be able, you need to take off at least four months for chemo. And the thought that I had was like, I think that, I'm afraid that will kill me.

• 4:01Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was afraid I would get depressed again.

• 4:05Lewis Howes?

  You mean you not being in service at that time? Just being in chemo and just sitting in my bed, like, waiting for this to be over, was not going to bring you enough joy or purpose.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Meaning, yeah.

• 4:16Lewis Howes?

  Meaning.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  This is the only way I know how to deal with suffering, is to use it.

• 4:21Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  And I really, you know, I believe, and most people do, that energy is neither created nor destroyed. And that energy that comes from suffering, it will either eat you up, or you use it as fuel to move you towards your values or improve the world in some way.

• 4:43Lewis Howes?

  And if we are living in suffering, sadness, or depression, and we do not move into action and use it, what will happen to us?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  You will just suffer exponentially more. It's such a clear one-to-one in my head, and not just through my personal experience, but with talks I've worked with. Like, as soon as you start finding a way to pay that forward, it just transforms the experience. I mean, what I went through was dark, and I can sit here today and say that I am glad I went through it. And I knew.

• 5:20Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

• 5:23Lewis Howes?

  Why? You glad you went through breast cancer?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  I'm close. I'm not there yet with the breast cancer, the depression for sure.

• 5:30Lewis Howes?

  The 10 years of depression.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:32Lewis Howes?

  Why are you glad you went through it?

• 5:33Speaker 01

  I genuinely believed it saved at least one life. That those moments when I do share with folks, and I do, because I work with folks who are often very suicidal, it is often the turning point in therapy. And I don't open with that. I mean, to be fair, like, it's something I keep kind of close to the chest. But if and when it's called for and I go there, it tends to be the turning point. And I can like, in the Rolodex of my mind, I can see like, people, their faces, who I really wonder, what would have happened if I hadn't taken that leap?

• 6:11Lewis Howes?

  And shared it with them.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  And shared it with them and then, and pulled on it again and again, you know?

• 6:17Lewis Howes?

  Because you, I'm assuming you have a, a patient come into your office who is intense depression, suicidal thoughts, and that's why they're in your office.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:27Lewis Howes?

  And they feel like no one understands them.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 6:31Lewis Howes?

  No one can understand the pain and sadness that they're feeling. That their mind is racing constantly, that they're unlovable, that everything is against them. They're, they have the worst luck every day. Everyone's out to get them. No one believes in them. And they feel like, what's the point of my life? Why should I even be here? And I want to hurt myself. And I feel like that's the only way to create relief. It's either numbing alcohol addiction. That's the only way to manage the pain and the sadness.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 7:00Lewis Howes?

  Or that's not even doing it. So I might as well, why am I even here?

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that is the point when a lot of people come to me. And I have to become, we need to have a strong enough alliance that at least for a little bit,

• 7:14Speaker 01

  I, I'm a reason not to. Okay? And so that needs to be a very real connection between equals. And I'm, I'm not making a codependent or dependent relationship here. That is a short-lived thing, but I need to keep them alive so that we can do the skills training and, you know, help them build a life worth living. All right?

• 7:33Lewis Howes?

  And if they don't feel validated by you, and, and you might be able to try to validate them in every other way, but it might be that your life, experience of 10 years of feeling something similar.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:45Lewis Howes?

  Is the only thing that could validate them.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And. And I don't want this to sound like, I don't know, egotistical, but like, look at me. But there's something to be said for the fact that like, I am, you know, sitting in the chair that I'm in, and I've written a book, and I've had success. There's something really quite powerful to that, to be like, no, I was in this situation. And I know there's, I believe there's another way.

• 8:10Lewis Howes?

  You're living a better life than then.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. So like, this is all on the table for you.

• 8:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and for 10 years, I didn't think there was a better way for me.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. There, there's something, there's just something there that I would be, you know, beyond the validation, I think there's that.

• 8:26Lewis Howes?

  You mentioned that if someone is suffering, the best way to get out of it is to be in service of someone else, right? And if we are in suffering, I mean, when you, when you were going through chemotherapy with breast cancer, you said you couldn't just sit around for four months during chemo. You had to somehow use some energy to be active and serve others. So how did you apply that strategy during one of the scariest moments of your life?

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Fortunately, I had trained a lot of my clients, and I refer to my patients as clients, just because, you know, equality, like, I'm not up here, they're down here, just invalidation. And I have never experienced, honestly, such profound validation as I did from my clients, who are not supposed to take care of me, there's no expectation there. But there was this, like, I got you, and, man, you're showing up for me in all this.

• 9:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Like, hell, yeah.

• 9:33Lewis Howes?

  And you, you like, lost your hair, everything?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Everything. I, I remember I was, I was in the hospital, had, I was at, towards the end of the chemotherapy, I'd had this really bad infection from a bad needle. And it had gone, it was going towards these expanders that I had after the mastectomy.

• 9:51Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  And the doctor says, this, this infection is not clearing up, they've got me on 24-hour antibiotics. And he says, if the antibiotic, if, if this goes to the expanders, it'll kill you.

• 10:03Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  If I do surgery with your white blood cell count this low.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  It could kill you.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  But I can't go. We can only give this a couple more days and then I've got to go in because it's going to get to the and it'll reach the expanders.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  I remember I made some joke like, wow, break it to me easy or something. And he was

• 10:26Lewis Howes?

  Gosh.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  This is not a laughing matter. I'm like, hey. But that same day, I so the first thing was like, I was supposed to see clients on Monday.

• 10:34Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my God.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Right. So this is, this was a Tuesday and I have clients scheduled.

• 10:37Lewis Howes?

  You've got to relax a little bit.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  I know. Right. Right. And so I reach out to my assistant. I said, we got to cancel everything. And one of the clients that was canceled reached out and said, hey, it's not like you to cancel appointments. I just want to make sure you're okay. I have a weird, are you in the hospital? Like, I just have a weird feeling. And I was like, yeah, you know, actually, it's interesting that you mentioned that. Yeah, some things have come up.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  I'll be in touch. And they said, you know, I'm real close by. If you want to just go for a walk at all.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  You know, you can wheel your sad little IV bag behind you, but just let me know. We don't have to talk about anything. And it was just like such this human moment, you know, and I felt like I felt so seen. And I don't mean to suggest that like patients should be taken care of their doctor, anything like that. It was just that like cancer brought down so many of the walls that I'd been keeping up, right? About like, I'm here, you're there, duh, duh, duh, duh. And just I really did feel carried in some ways by the people I had served.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  And, and I, I don't think that only benefited me. I think that was a powerful experience in both directions.

• 11:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  And that's what this does, right? That's what that is how you make meaning out of suffering, I think, is if, if you use it to connect with other people.

• 12:05Lewis Howes?

  If someone watching or listening right now has someone in their life that is truly suffering, like they just seem to be in a mental health funk or They just are showing behaviors that are just not well.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 12:18Lewis Howes?

  You know, I don't know how you want to diagnose it, but they're just experiencing sadness, depressive thoughts. They're just down to themselves, self sabotage, all these feelings. If someone are watching or listening right now, knows someone in their life going through that, how can they be a support for them without trying to rescue and save?

• 12:35Speaker 01

  It's such a good question because often what I see in that situation, unfortunately, is people doing more harm than good, right? They end up reinforcing self harming behavior or substance abusing behavior.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  You know, providing resources that actually prevent the person from getting up on their feet.

• 12:56Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 12:57Lewis Howes?

  Like what?

• 12:57Speaker 01

  I mean, in the case of like drug abuse, right? It can be money, resources, homes. Even situations, if I've had clients with extreme OCD who can't leave the house. Well, guess what? If you don't leave the house, OCD is going to get a lot worse. Okay, that thing's just going to kind of fester and you're spending 12 hours a day, you know, just cleaning the bathtub. And your parents should probably stop supporting that. You need, we need to get you out, okay? So if, if that's your experience, you've got someone that's suffering, it is critical to be validating, to be kind. This sucks, you're trying so hard, this hurts so much. And I need, I, what can we do to get you help?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  That is what I can help you do.

• 13:44Lewis Howes?

  What if someone doesn't want the help? You know that they need help. You know that they're doing things, thinking things, behaving in ways that are harming them. They're staying up all night, they're doing whatever it is. They're eating excessively and they're just not taking care of themselves. And it's been a pattern for months or years. And they don't want help from you. Or they don't want help from anyone. How do you support them and like snapping out of it, jumping back, starting to transform or heal and just doing something better for themselves?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  One, you're not God. So unfortunately, you can't, you cannot take on that like it's on me.

• 14:21Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Okay, that's one of the most liberating things I learned as a therapist who treats suicidality is that you're not God.

• 14:28Lewis Howes?

  What if someone you truly care about, a family member, a friend that is in your life? And what if they do harm themselves? What if you can't, they can't come back from the harm they create?

• 14:39Lewis Howes?

  And you could have done something, maybe.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Uh uh, coulda, shoulda, woulda. Who knows if what you were gonna do would have helped? Like I just said, a lot of people think they're helping and they're actually feeding the problem. Okay, someone who doesn't wanna get help, often doesn't wanna get help because they don't think it will work. They don't think they're capable of change, or they don't trust that anybody could understand. So those are the three things that I often need to troubleshoot or problem solve around. I need to address, I need to figure out which of those is at play. And then I need to figure out how I'm gonna help, kind of disprove their hypothesis. So you don't think anyone could understand? Okay, great, let's, let's look though. Let's see if there's support groups. And we can even say it's for me. Can you just come with me and I'll go?

• 15:26Speaker 01

  But you've gotta be careful with, with the pushing. Again, it's a lot of validation upfront.

• 15:30Lewis Howes?

  You might, they might resist even more. The more you try to push to try to support, they might just say, I just wanna be alone in my room.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so again, I'm heavy, heavy on the validation upfront. But then I'm also crystal clear on the limits. Like, I can't take calls after 11, dude. I'm sorry. Like, and, and something might happen to you, you might do something. I, I can't function as a therapist. And I'm not doing you any favors by pretending I can't.

• 15:58Lewis Howes?

  Cause at some point you have to take action and do something. You can't just say, I'm in a dark place, I'm, I can't get out of it. You have to be willing to take action steps. But if someone is suffering so much, like you went through 10 years of depression or suffering and, and feeling these things. It's a decade of life, right? Like, how does someone start to take action? Could someone have said anything to you differently? And that first five years that would have gotten you to feel better?

• 16:26Speaker 01

  I don't think so, I mean.

• 16:27Lewis Howes?

  It's just a matter of time. Like, you just have to go through your journey and just suffer. Until you decide and get self-motivated or self-

• 16:36Speaker 01

  I mean-

• 16:36Lewis Howes?

  empowered that I don't wanna live this way anymore?

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Like, for me though, you know, it was, I had tried all the things. And what worked, actually, and I hate to say this as a therapist, it wasn't therapy. It wasn't meds. It was electric shock therapy. It was ECT. Okay, that is some wild stuff. It's like they hook you up and like shut your brain, like crazy.

• 16:58Lewis Howes?

  What is it, like, in your brain, like on-

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it's like, it's like one flew over the cuckoo's nest, yeah.

• 17:01Lewis Howes?

  Sure, this is, they hook up your-

• 17:03Speaker 01

  They, yeah, they-

• 17:05Lewis Howes?

  What do they do?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  They like

• 17:06Lewis Howes?

  What is this?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  It's wild. You go in, they put you under anesthesia and then they

• 17:10Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, they put stuff into your brain and then it creates a seizure.

• 17:14Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 17:14Speaker 01

  In your brain.

• 17:15Lewis Howes?

  Self-induced seizure?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:17Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow. How long, how many times you do this?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Um, I had bilateral, the main side effect is memory loss. So like, I can't I can't remember. Yeah, it's like a complete blank.

• 17:26Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I have some really funny stories about that time.

• 17:30Lewis Howes?

  Did that like reset your brain?

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:33Lewis Howes?

  Did it help?

• 17:34Speaker 01

  It did. I had tried everything.

• 17:38Lewis Howes?

  And that helped you?

• 17:40Speaker 01

  And

• 17:40Lewis Howes?

  You tried medication, you tried therapy, you tried working out, you tried eating perfect.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  I mean, I was, I was literally teaching yoga classes while I was going through ECT, which was hilarious because I would like forget what the flow was and just kind of it was a disaster. Yeah.

• 17:58Lewis Howes?

  And that helped you? Wow.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Um, and so for me, it really was like a switch. Now, ECT does, it's

• 18:06Lewis Howes?

  Do you think there was any placebo to that?

• 18:08Speaker 01

  I don't. Because if there would have been, I would have felt it so much earlier with all the other things I had tried. And I did not think this was gonna work. This was like, I mean, ECT is highly effective.

• 18:21Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  It's been really portrayed horribly in the movies and stuff, so it's not, uh, but for treatment-resistant depression, I think it works something like 80% of the time.

• 18:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  It is an incredibly effective treatment for depression. Just, there's something we don't talk about. I'm curious, I'll talk about it.

• 18:39Lewis Howes?

  That is interesting.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So for me, it was that, but

• 18:42Lewis Howes?

  Huh.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  that does not prevent you from relapse.

• 18:45Lewis Howes?

  Ah, yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  And so I was very susceptible. I could see my mind starting to go in that direction.

• 18:51Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. So it wasn't like the fix automatically, you still had to

• 18:55Speaker 01

  I, I, it was a fix, but then it was really easy to get pulled.

• 18:58Lewis Howes?

  So you needed protocols, you needed habits.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  I needed meditation. I needed, I mean, meditation was, it was that combination for me. It was the ECT and then, and then getting into meditation.

• 19:09Lewis Howes?

  How much of suffering stems or depression stems from the way we think and how our mind works?

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Uh, folks would argue most of it.

• 19:20Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Right? It's a, it's a, it's a loop of kind of stemming from these core beliefs of just like, I'm worthless, I'm unlovable.

• 19:28Lewis Howes?

  So is it a belief or an identity that we've shaped around our beliefs?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I think it's really, I mean, in my experience, it was like a tape playing in my head, but also it was very physiological.

• 19:42Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Like, it would feel just like there's somebody lying on top of me. And that's what shifted after that treatment was just like, that's off my way.

• 19:52Lewis Howes?

  You still have the thoughts.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Some, but they were quieter. But I like, when stress would occur or something would happen, they would come on like a storm.

• 20:00Lewis Howes?

  So how do we rewire our brain to create a loop of thinking that is empowering versus disempowering?

• 20:08Speaker 01

  So the first thing you need is, is self-awareness. And for me, that was facilitated through meditation. So when I was deeply depressed, it was really painful to meditate. That was very hard.

• 20:20Lewis Howes?

  Almost impossible feeling.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's almost, it's can be contraindicated, honestly.

• 20:24Lewis Howes?

  Because you're like, this is not working out, like I'm.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  And like, what's in your head is not stuff you should be like, spending quiet time with, you know?

• 20:32Speaker 01

  But afterwards, I, there was a separation between me and my thoughts. It wasn't like this glue.

• 20:37Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  I could challenge them a little bit. I could get distance. And so it was.

• 20:42Lewis Howes?

  That's key, right?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  That was the key.

• 20:44Lewis Howes?

  Is seeing your thoughts at the side of you versus being you.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  That's right. And that's kind of that identity thing you mentioned, right? And I think there's this like fusion with these thoughts that are, you know, biologically, you know, genetically, whatever, you have a predisposition for it. But it's being able to decouple.

• 21:03Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  And for me, like, when that gap would start to kind of like close in like this because of stress, that's where I would like, I can meditate and start to widen it back out.

• 21:13Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  And that's been the case since then.

• 21:15Lewis Howes?

  And the more we can create that separation through self-awareness and meditation.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:21Lewis Howes?

  Or other techniques.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Or other techniques.

• 21:22Lewis Howes?

  Prayer.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 21:25Lewis Howes?

  And we can not disassociate, but disconnect from the thought being us and more of saying, this is something I'm thinking, but it's not something I am. Or something I'm experiencing rather than this makes me, this is me. The more we can do that on a daily basis, then we don't have to believe those thoughts.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  That's right. And especially when you couple it with care for others with.

• 21:51Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Paying that suffering forward, using it as fuel to help other people in some way. Like when I was first, my poor husband, when we didn't think I was going to need chemotherapy. Then they do the mastectomy and stuff and they're like, oh, actually it's in the lymph nodes. We got to do chemo. And like my reaction was we got to go find some kittens to foster.

• 22:10Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Literally, this was like what we had to do. Matt's like, again. And so we went to a kill shelter. We got two kittens. One of them died.

• 22:22Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Very sadly, just being kind of too sick and really poorly cared for at this shelter. My daughter's like, you're not allowed to touch or do anything. You are just like bad mojo.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  The other one lived. We then fostered another and then of course we adopted them. But like those cats would not be alive today had I not been diagnosed with cancer.

• 22:45Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  It's just a fact.

• 22:47Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  And I see them every day.

• 22:49Lewis Howes?

  And they bring you joy and love and play and energy around the house or whatever. Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 22:54Lewis Howes?

  And it's, it's you being in service even to a small creature.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Anything. Yes.

• 23:00Lewis Howes?

  It could be a plant. It could be like, how can I, you know, take care of something other than me?

• 23:06Speaker 01

  That's it. That's it.

• 23:07Lewis Howes?

  Even when I'm suffering, even when I'm feel depressed, even when I feel like I have no energy.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Because I'm suffering.

• 23:13Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Because I have no energy. You have to like, and in this, like you can tell, I feel it almost viscerally. Like it's like, no, you have to. Okay. Because otherwise that it's energy is not created or destroyed. If you don't funnel it, channel it, it's gonna take you down.

• 23:31Lewis Howes?

  It will.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  It will take more of you down. And so like you, you have to, you have to, especially with mental illness. I hate to admit it, but it's very self-focused.

• 23:41Lewis Howes?

  Do you think there's any link between mental illness and mental disease? With single people over people with kids?

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Oh wow, that's fascinating.

• 23:53Lewis Howes?

  Because the single life and because the self-focused life, at least in America, in our society these days, with independence and social media and getting married later and having kids later is more self-focused and therefore more suffering-focused.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  It's a really great question. Gosh dang it, now I need to do a meta-analysis and see what the data says.

• 24:13Lewis Howes?

  Now, I'm not saying that parents don't also have a lot on their plates.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:17Lewis Howes?

  A lot of like joy, but also some of them are facing a lot of emotional stress because they're not sleeping, because they don't have extra support.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:25Lewis Howes?

  Because they're trying to self-regulate and work a full-time job to provide and have kids around and just be like no time for themselves. I'm not saying that also doesn't cause

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 24:35Lewis Howes?

  mental challenges and stress and overwhelm.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 24:38Lewis Howes?

  But is there more depression and suffering with single people with no kids versus people with kids?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Here's what I know, I've worked with a lot of folks. Once you have kids, that becomes a huge, I guess I can't kill myself for a lot of people.

• 24:55Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Right? Like there is a

• 24:57Lewis Howes?

  Less likely.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  Less likely and more of like, um, there is more of, I think, there can be more of a seriousness around being able to take care of this kid and I've got to be, I've got to take care of myself to do that, right?

• 25:10Lewis Howes?

  Or some people say, I'm gonna give all myself to the kid and put myself last.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, things get worse.

• 25:16Lewis Howes?

  And they, they suffer, but at least they're not killing themselves, I guess, but maybe slowly.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:23Lewis Howes?

  I don't know. Okay, just curious.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:25Lewis Howes?

  I don't know if you had an answer there for, because it does seem like a lot of people without kids tend to go down the rabbit hole of depression and self-sabotage and like suffering, you know, cycles?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, yeah, even just that case I was talking about with like the OCD. Like if you've got a kid that you have to pick up at three o'clock and drive to whatever, like you can't be cleaning your bathtub.

• 25:46Lewis Howes?

  You don't have the time all day.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:47Lewis Howes?

  You're like, you have to put your energy and put the energy into something else.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Right. And again, it is that like caring for someone thing. And that can be very, um, helpful as you described.

• 26:00Lewis Howes?

  What would you say then is the biggest universal pain in the world?

• 26:06Speaker 01

  What do you mean? Like?

• 26:07Lewis Howes?

  What is the thing that causes the most pain for most human beings?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  I'm gonna come back to valid. I think it's invalidation.

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  Invalidation. Is it more them invalidating themselves? Or others invalidating them?

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Others invalidating them.

• 26:22Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  I think being made to feel like you are crazy, like you are alone. Nobody else feels this. Nobody else has gone through this. What's wrong with you? I think that is the genesis of so much suffering. Of anger, of war, of, I mean, just on a large scale. I think we react violently, be it to ourselves or others, when we don't feel accepted.

• 26:54Lewis Howes?

  Man.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  I do, I do believe that.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  In part because I've seen how transformative validation can be for someone who was raised or is coming out of an environment that was defined by the absence of it.

• 27:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, from a narcissistic relationship or

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 27:14Lewis Howes?

  abusive parents or bipolar parents, or whatever it might be, right?

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Right, whatever the situation was, like if you were

• 27:22Speaker 01

  or even, you know, I see a lot of folks on the LGBTQ, you know, plus spectrum there and just these good god, if you look at the suicide rates and the self-harm rates in in that population, significantly higher. Right? Anytime a group is marginalized and made to feel like there's something fundamentally wrong with them. They're not accepted. It just does not play out well for the individual or for society.

• 27:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What about someone that you don't agree with?

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:52Lewis Howes?

  But you can still, how do you validate someone? Even if you don't agree with their behaviors or the relationship they're in, or the life path or the career path?

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:02Lewis Howes?

  Whatever it is.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:03Lewis Howes?

  How can we do that? Even if we're like, oh, I just don't like that, what you're doing.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:08Lewis Howes?

  That doesn't make sense to me. That's not my value system. That's not the career choice I would make. That partner's kind of weird. You sure you want to do that? Like, how do we? Disagree, but also validate.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so again, you don't, such an important point. You do not have to agree with someone to see the validity in their perspective, in their reaction. And if you don't see it, then it's on you to figure it out. Because every single effect has a cause. Okay? And so just to sit here and say, I don't like reality.

• 28:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  It's what we're doing in those moments. I don't like reality.

• 28:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  And you got to differentiate the person from their behavior as well. I think that's where things get really messy. You had a guest on recently that was talking about this as well. I can't, I told you I'm horrible with names. I can't remember who it was. But, you know, I don't have to agree with what someone does or even their thought process. But that doesn't mean that I think they are a fundamentally bad person. Like, don't confine people to the crappy things they've said or done.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. See it as part of them, but not all of them.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 29:16Lewis Howes?

  Okay. You just, you don't have to agree with that thing. But you don't mean to make their, they are horrible.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, I think I'm able to say this from like, I have a little bit of a different perspective, which is again, that I've worked with folks with some pretty egregious kind of

• 29:32Speaker 01

  obnoxious behavioral and cognitive problems. And I've seen them change.

• 29:38Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  And so I think from that vantage point, a lot of these quirks in other people, they feel a lot less threatening to me, I guess. I see them, I can see them as more transient and less like, this is their character, you know? Like, it's like, oh, they're experimenting with that. Even if it's been 20 years, I still have a perspective that they can, that they can change.

• 30:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Which helps.

• 30:02Lewis Howes?

  So during, you know, how long was this process for you going through cancer and chemotherapy? How long was the whole journey from getting the news to? Being on the other side of it.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  I just, honestly, I just had a hysterectomy in December.

• 30:18Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  So, uh, almost two years. Yeah. Well, about a year and a half. It's a long run.

• 30:26Lewis Howes?

  Have you been able to find kind of peace or like calm through the two plus years of?

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Well, as if that wasn't bad enough, I also already had multiple sclerosis.

• 30:37Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  So the combo and then the chemo did quite a number on my system. So I, I ended up with like a bit of arthritis afterwards and just pain. Just more pain. And I've had a lot of, um, you know,

• 30:53Speaker 01

  to the contrary, on the opposite end of the spectrum, I've had a lot of like these why me? Type of moments, right?

• 31:01Lewis Howes?

  You've had that.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  I have. Oh, yeah.

• 31:02Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  MS, depression, cancer, like, give me a break.

• 31:10Lewis Howes?

  How do you find meaning through the suffering or the pain or the sad things that are happening?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's back to, um, one, I can't hate myself for thinking, why me? All right. There's validity to feeling exhausted and destroyed by so much of this. There are so many things in my life that I have missed out on, that I cannot do, that I probably will never be able to do.

• 31:36Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  That's just reality. And that sucks. Okay? And I, I, I'm not living in Gaza. Okay? There's, both of these things can be true. It can be true that I'm suffering and my life has been compromised in some ways. It's also true that it's not the greatest hardship ever experienced. More importantly, I am in a position, or I, it's, it's on me to find a way to use this suffering, whatever it is, as a gift. And that is my responsibility. Nobody else can do that for me.

• 32:10Lewis Howes?

  Because if you don't see the suffering as a gift, then what happens?

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Then it's, then it's just an anchor. It's just a, it's a dead weight. Like, you know, I picture like the, the old prisons, right? These people carrying around this ball. Like that is, that is what it, that's what it is.

• 32:27Lewis Howes?

  So what I'm hearing you say,

• 32:30Lewis Howes?

  not only as a clinical psychologist, but also as a human being, that the only way to get out of suffering is to find a way to serve something else greater than you and find meaning in the gift of your suffering.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Use it to validate others. It is gold in that sense. Like that experience that you described of being able to just be like, come here, I get it. Hugging somebody who has just barely found the strength to kind of whisper hint at this thing. Like, there's only one reason why you can provide that.

• 33:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  All right.

• 33:15Lewis Howes?

  Because I've been through an experience, yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Because you've.

• 33:17Lewis Howes?

  So I can validate it.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  In a way that nobody else can.

• 33:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  And that is an extreme superpower. So it's not, it's not your shame. It's not, you know, dark place. It is your superpower.

• 33:31Lewis Howes?

  Gosh, that's so interesting that I never really thought about it that way, that you can really turn your shame and your biggest insecurity into your greatest superpower. I never really thought about it that way. I mean, I've, I've been using it in service. But it's not, I didn't think of it as like, it could be one day, maybe not in the middle of the suffering right now, but one day. And it's so hard to think that way when you're going through it.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  I know. So the, the thing you have to think about is like, it's not going to remove yourself. Give up on the idea that this is going to make you feel better. Put that aside.

• 34:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  You have to do it with the sole intent of helping somebody, remove, reducing something. These cats have no idea that I have cancer.

• 34:11Lewis Howes?

  And they don't care.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  They have no idea, they don't. Right? But, and, and maybe I'll feel better. Maybe I won't. I don't know what chemo is going to do to me. It could be horrible. But this will have done some good in the world. That's why you have to do it just for the sake of improving something, removing something suffering. And if you have suffered yourself, you are in a unique position to do that. Because again, I said, I think validation, invalidation is at the core of so much of our pain and struggling. And so if you've got insight and you can communicate that in a way that speaks to another person, that helps them feel seen when they have felt lost for so long. That is your superpower, right?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Like, I don't know.

• 34:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Cheesy, and I'm not saying suffer is great, but yeah.

• 35:02Lewis Howes?

  It's not great.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 35:03Lewis Howes?

  But you say on page sixty-five of your book, "Your suffering is a gift. Don't squander it."

• 35:10Lewis Howes?

  But I think it's really hard when we're in the middle of it. That's what, you know, what I've experienced. I mean, for most of my life, I suffered internally. Externally, I looked like things were fine. But internally, I suffered, right? And it was a number of different instances. Sexual trauma and abuse when I was five by a man that I didn't know, that I've talked about openly often on the show. But just a lot of different scenarios in childhood that caused me to feel like, what's the point? You know, but on the outside, I was a good athlete and this and that. It was like, okay, it didn't look like that. But inside, I was suffering.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:44Lewis Howes?

  And it, you know, without those experiences, I would not care about, I would not be doing what I'm doing, trying to serve people. I would not be creating the show. I would not be curious about understanding people. I would not be trying to make a difference or an impact in the way that I'm doing it. And looking back, I can appreciate those moments, even though it felt like there's no way out. It feels like, when is this gonna leave, this pain?

• 36:12Speaker 01

  It can't, and you just like, it goes on for so long, you don't think it can.

• 36:15Lewis Howes?

  And it's, yeah, it feels like I'll never, you can't think in a day that it'll ever leave you.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 36:21Lewis Howes?

  You're like, it's, I've felt this my whole life. How am I gonna start to feel some type of relief? It seems like daunting.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, and incomprehensible and

• 36:31Lewis Howes?

  All of it.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  unattainable, like, all of it, all of it.

• 36:33Lewis Howes?

  And, you know, I don't remember, no one, no one opened up, I never saw anyone that opened up about sexual abuse.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:42Lewis Howes?

  As a boy.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:43Lewis Howes?

  I never saw another, like, athlete open up on TV like, oh, this happened to me.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:48Lewis Howes?

  So I felt I was the only one.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:50Lewis Howes?

  And I never, I never saw validation.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  No, you didn't. In fact, sexual trauma is the epitome of invalidation.

• 36:57Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah, you're worthless.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  You're worthless. I don't care what you feel.

• 37:01Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  You deserve this, you want this, you're causing this.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  And we know that sexual trauma as a form of invalidation correlates highly with some of the most devastating mental health problems, including borderline personality disorder, self-harm, suicidality, PTSD, narcissism, depression, you name it.

• 37:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Right? Because in those situations, you cannot, you don't learn to trust your emotions or your read of the situation because you're being told that it's wrong.

• 37:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Right? You're getting competing messages of like, you're good here. No, now you're bad.

• 37:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  And it's like, wait, which, what, what's okay? And so you defer to the environment to try and figure that out.

• 37:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  But the sense of self-worth can be really deeply fractured.

• 37:49Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man. Mine was broken my whole life.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  So how, if you don't mind me asking, like, what turned for you?

• 37:57Lewis Howes?

  12 years ago, uh, right before, well, right after I launched this show, I went to, my life was kind of falling apart. I hit 30 and on the outside, things looked good. Like I had a successful business and I, you know, I was in a relationship and I, you know, it was like I was physically fit. I was a, what all these things looked okay. But all my relationships were falling apart. And I just had a lot of anger inside of me that was starting to come out. And I was reacting in situations and just like very easily triggered. And

• 38:36Speaker 01

  And that was a change? Like that started, like, did that build over time?

• 38:39Lewis Howes?

  I think it just amplified.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 38:41Lewis Howes?

  It amplified. And I thought that making it would, would solve some problems or something, you know, about having money or like whatever, having like an audience or something would start to, I'd start to feel more validated.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 38:55Lewis Howes?

  I don't know, I guess.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:56Lewis Howes?

  But it didn't, I just felt more angry. It was still inside of me. It was never released.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  It was never seen.

• 39:02Lewis Howes?

  I would release it, you know, not in helpful ways. Yeah. It would just like come out, but it was still inside of me. I never transformed it and healed it. I would just react and

• 39:16Lewis Howes?

  My best friend Matt, who you met when you're coming in here, he was like, "I got in a fight on a basketball court." Not with him, but he was there. And he was just like, "Man, I don't want to be around you anymore if you keep acting this way." It was a big wake-up call for me.

• 39:30Speaker 01

  And you heard it though, because that's like...

• 39:32Lewis Howes?

  It was like, not in the moment, it was like the next couple of days. He was like, "You know, you're not fun to be around when you're getting in fights like this." And...

• 39:41Speaker 01

  And a good friend.

• 39:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, he's a great friend. And it was just, it was a big moment. I mean, it was a big moment for me because, yeah, I just, I think I could have done some really bad things, you know?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 39:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I could have done some bad, like, I got in a fight and I realized like, I really hurt this guy.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 39:57Lewis Howes?

  I mean, listen, the guy was bigger than me and he hit me first, so I'm not like defending myself. He was fine.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you saw the tension.

• 40:05Lewis Howes?

  But like, seeing what I could do, like, he was fine afterwards. Like, he wasn't, but he was. But seeing what I could do in just a moment, it was just like, oh man, there's a freaking tiger inside of me.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Did you feel out of control?

• 40:17Lewis Howes?

  No, I felt extremely powerful. Like, I felt empowered.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  Oh wow.

• 40:23Lewis Howes?

  Because I was like taking back control. Because it felt like someone was attacking me and abusing me.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 40:32Lewis Howes?

  It felt like, it was like, it was another form of abuse. It was on a basketball court.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:37Lewis Howes?

  So it was a guy cheap-shotting me, it was a guy saying nasty things. It was like, he was crossing a boundary, he wasn't playing within the game.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Right, he was breaking the rules, yep.

• 40:45Lewis Howes?

  And he was, and it felt personal.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:48Lewis Howes?

  And he headbutted me at one point. And so I just kind of like reacted and it was just like exploded, right? And so it was like, it was a crossing of a boundary that he did and then I responded from that. But then it was like, they had to like rip me off of him. It was like, it was a moment where I was like, "I feel no pain, I can destroy anything."

• 41:08Speaker 01

  So you were like your own protector in that situation?

• 41:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and it felt very empowering. Because I was like, "I'm not gonna let anyone hurt me."

• 41:15Speaker 01

  And I'm strong enough to prevent them.

• 41:17Lewis Howes?

  But then when I saw the aftermath, I was like shaking. I was like, I went back to my apartment, I looked myself in the mirror. I had like, you know, bloody knuckles and I was just shaking, trembling, looking in the mirror. And I was just like, I didn't recognize myself. And I was just like, "Who are you?" I was just looking at myself, I was like, "What are you doing?" He said this the next couple of days. And that was like a wake up call. It was like, okay, like, I need to reflect. I get to do some, get some coaching, get some therapy, go to some workshops. And it was a process of all these things. That really supported me over the next 12 months. I finally opened up about the sexual abuse for the first time in 25 years.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  How did that feel?

• 42:00Lewis Howes?

  Terrifying, originally.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:03Lewis Howes?

  Then freeing.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:04Lewis Howes?

  Terrifying, like my world was gonna, I was like, I was gonna die. That's how it felt. And I was like, no one is ever gonna talk to me.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  That was the fear, like you would just be rejected, ostracized?

• 42:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I was like, because at this point, this is 12 years ago, I had never seen a man talk about sexual abuse, like being sexual. I'd never seen someone that looked like me, sports background, business guy.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Sure, sure.

• 42:27Lewis Howes?

  I'd never seen it. It wasn't something that people talked about on TV or social media.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  And if you didn't see it, that means it doesn't exist, like those two things cannot happen.

• 42:34Lewis Howes?

  It was the only one. Like, I didn't have heard another person say that there was sexual abuse. Except for women. Like, I'd heard that, but I'd never heard men. So I was like, I'm even that much more lovable because I'm the only man, right? And it was just, I never saw it.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 42:52Lewis Howes?

  So it was just terrifying to talk about. And now, I can be grateful for that suffering.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:59Lewis Howes?

  Even though it was not enjoyable in the moment, 25 years of it. But I can be grateful now because I truly believe I can empathize and understand what someone has experienced emotionally and psychologically. Who's gone through some type of similar experience.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  You can validate in a way that I can't.

• 43:19Lewis Howes?

  I can validate the one in six women in a certain way.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:23Lewis Howes?

  And the one, excuse me, one in four women and one in six men who've had some type of sexual misconduct, sexual abuse, or sexual trauma. I can. Feel it without them even saying it. People come up to me all the time and they say, "I appreciate your story. I really appreciate it. I listen to the podcast, I read the books." And, you know, I can just, "I have a similar backstory." That's all they have to say. And I know what they're saying. Like, it's not all the other, like, feeling dumb in school and doing all this other stuff. It's like, I know, it's like a shift in their body when they say it, that I'm like, "Just give me a hug." And they start trembling. It's like a tremble because they haven't spoken it.

• 44:07Lewis Howes?

  I know they haven't spoken it. And they're probably just barely saying it to me momentarily.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Just like this little whisper.

• 44:16Lewis Howes?

  Little like, I'm letting you know that, hey, I have a similar backstory. And I can just feel it. And I'm like, "You're gonna be okay. Allow yourself to heal." Right? And just the hug, it's just give me a hug. I think it's kickstarting the process for them to start that healing journey. I never got that. I never got that.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:36Lewis Howes?

  And it was terrifying. And I thought no one's gonna like, accept me, or love me, or care, you know? I was like, "I'm done. Like, my life is over." But that's when life began. Because I started to heal. And in chapter four, page 55, you write about finding meaning in suffering. But I guess the challenge is when, when, I'm trying to reflect back when I was in it.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:58Lewis Howes?

  Doesn't even seem feasible. Because it doesn't, for me, it didn't feel like anyone could understand me. Like, when I was in school, the teachers didn't get me, the principals didn't get me, the coach, like, "Parents weren't understanding me. They were going through their stuff." It was like, peers didn't understand me. So if no one's gonna understand me, no one's able to validate me.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, screw you. It's not about you getting your validation. It's about you paying it forward.

• 45:21Lewis Howes?

  Ah, so get out of needing someone else to validate me and just add value. Find a cat, find a plant, like, whatever you're in your season of life, give to where you can give.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. The more desperate you are in, in kind of trying to get what you need.

• 45:38Lewis Howes?

  Validate.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Others, yeah, right? You're, it's, it's a, it's a fool's quest. You're not gonna get there.

• 45:44Lewis Howes?

  More suffering.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. That is it. So like, in that moment, that's what I'm saying. Like, if you're hearing this and you're suffering, like, Don't do this just to feel better because you're not going to feel better right away. You may not even feel better. Like you might 10 years from now be like, well, that was crap. Yeah, I saved a couple cats, but totally not worth it. Fine. Like you might not feel better, but the world will be better in some way, shape or form because you suffered. If you make that the case, then that's full stop. That's all that needs to happen.

• 46:15Lewis Howes?

  And I guess if you look, if you ask yourself at the end of my life, was it worth carrying the weight of sadness and suffering and depression and never feeling good? No one validated me and I died a suffering sad person? Or if you can look forward to your future self and say, I don't know if anyone's gonna ever validate me. I don't know if I'm ever gonna get out of this suffering or if I'm ever gonna do anything good in life, but I'm gonna do my best to make a difference.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:42Lewis Howes?

  With a cat, a dog, a plant, a friend, and give and contribute in some way.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:47Lewis Howes?

  And it's, I'd rather suffer my whole life and be someone that contributes than suffer and just be sad.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 46:55Lewis Howes?

  It's like, if you're gonna choose one or the other, it's like at least be of contribution. Yeah.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then side note, I'm pretty sure that that service stuff that you do is gonna make you feel better, but don't count on it.

• 47:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  But you're right.

• 47:06Lewis Howes?

  It pretty much will.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Not like Loki. No. But that's true. I mean, at the end of the day, are you gonna live a life that was, that leaned into your values? Or are you gonna have tantrums for 80 years about the fact that people didn't validate you?

• 47:24Lewis Howes?

  And played victim your whole life.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:26Lewis Howes?

  It's like, that's not an empowering place to live from.

• 47:28Speaker 01

  No, that's letting, it's just re-traumatizing, re-traumatizing, re-traumatizing.

• 47:35Lewis Howes?

  When you're doing clinical psychology work and you're working with either elite executives or

• 47:43Lewis Howes?

  clients who are dealing with extreme suicidal thoughts.

• 47:48Lewis Howes?

  What is typically the turning point for each one of them to start getting out of suffering? Once you validate them, once they feel seen and acknowledged, like you understand the pain that they're going through and you can sit with them and they feel heard. When do you see people starting to shift to taking action, to creating new thinking, new behaviors, new routines, and therefore a better life?

• 48:13Speaker 01

  It's interesting. We were talking about this a little bit earlier. I see a real difference between the folks that I'm coaching as an executive coach, right, folks in corporate or startups or whatever, and my mental health patients. Now, in part, it's because the suffering over here is so, so heavy. There's also this belief that becomes a truth, which is that I can't get better. I can't do better. And there can be a real sensitivity around me suggesting that they do different things because then it's like, well, then are you saying that I'm bringing this on myself, that I'm bad, that I'm whatever. My executive coaching clients, they're like, all right, we've got 50 minutes. I have a notepad and can I record this, right?

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Like, they are, they're so much more receptive and open. And that, in my experience, is the best predictor of who will succeed in either situation.

• 49:07Lewis Howes?

  So you need a willingness or receptiveness to try something new?

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yes. I'll often say, please, you don't think this will work? Please prove me wrong. Please collect some data and prove me wrong. All right. And plenty of people have come back and said, it didn't work. Here's why. And I said, oh, yeah, because you did this thing.

• 49:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Try it again. But like, that willingness, that is the predictor of who succeeds and who doesn't in either scenario.

• 49:31Lewis Howes?

  Yes. But how do you get someone who is suffering and doesn't believe they can change to be willing to try something new?

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Well, one, I help them validate, make sure they know that I understand where they are at. Because if I don't understand that, then why the hell should they trust me when I say, go this way? It's like, you don't even know where I'm at, right? Once they do, then I need to project a level of, we're in this together. Because that feeling of I'm alone with this. That is a cancer.

• 50:03Lewis Howes?

  That's scary.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  So I need to target that and say like, all right, we're gonna do this together. Text me when you use this skill. Let me know how it goes. You know, text me a picture of when you're outside just to show me the beautiful day. Like, let's do this together.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  That's pretty critical.

• 50:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, okay. So having some accountability, having them check in, trying stuff, got it?

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:26Lewis Howes?

  I've got a couple of final questions for you. We're talking about your book, Validation. Dr. Caroline Fleck. Make sure you guys pick up a copy. If you're looking to improve the quality of your life, a lot of beautiful skills, science in here, research that show you how to connect in an influential, empowering way with anyone in your life to validate them and to show them you understand them. Because that is the key to unlocking more vulnerability, more connection, more openness, more love. And you said earlier that love is not enough in a relationship. We also need validation to feel a deeper connection.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  To feel a real connection.

• 51:04Lewis Howes?

  A real connection. So would you say love is kind of like a surface level emotion and validation is like a?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  No, I would say that love is contingent upon validation. And so, I mean, you can love a facade, but like, in order for one to experience love, they need to have first felt seen and accepted.

• 51:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Because otherwise, like, what does the other person love? Some version of you that you like, you know, manufactured, that doesn't feel like connection. I think that's why so many of us feel lonely in our relationships. It's because like, we are. We are not seen for our weaknesses or our strengths in the way that we want to be or we need to be. When we come to our partner with a problem, they try and solve it, they try and resolve it. They don't say like, oh, my God, that makes total sense that you, whatever.

• 51:57Lewis Howes?

  How do you know when to validate versus solve? When a partner comes to you with stress, overwhelm, or a problem?

• 52:05Speaker 01

  So one of the single greatest pieces of advice I got as when I was in, you know, graduate school, was when someone comes to you with an issue. You've got to decide, do I respond with problem solving or validation? Ask yourself that every single time. Because in any given moment, you can only do one or the other. Now, if I open with problem solving and that doesn't work, I can go back to validation. If I validate and that works well, I can switch to problem solving. But at any given moment, ask yourself, like, how should I respond here? Because nine times out of 10, we respond with problem solving. We fix. Nine times out of 10, people are seeking validation.

• 52:46Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  And so we're doing this.

• 52:49Lewis Howes?

  So even if you validate for a few moments, a few minutes, start there and then you can...

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, so there's some caveats to that, actually. So like my executive coaching folks, like they come in, they're ready to go. And if I'm like, oh, it makes no sense that you were frustrated at that meeting because so and so is... And they're like, yeah, great, let's go.

• 53:06Lewis Howes?

  Tell me what to do.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. And so there is that.

• 53:09Lewis Howes?

  Know when to go into action, solving problem solving versus validation.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so I screw that up all the time and then I just switch to the other. But I'm clear in my head, there's like intention behind what I'm doing. I'm not just like shooting from the hip, like...

• 53:22Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Letting my emotion dictate how I respond.

• 53:26Lewis Howes?

  And would you even say we should ask our partner, are you looking for validation right now or are you looking for a solution?

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Yes, I ask my daughter this. She didn't get the teacher she wanted a couple of years, you know, a couple of years ago now. And my response is, do you want validation or problem solving? Problem solving would be me calling the school or us trying to figure, like, set up some playdates with new kids because none of your friends are in the class. Validation would be, and she said, validation. All right, that sucks. There is nothing worse than looking at the year ahead of you and seeing, you know, just this hellscape of no friends, bad teacher.

• 54:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, uncertainty, the daunting uncertainty of middle school, yeah.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  So this should be language we use. You can't expect people to like know what you need in any given moment.

• 54:14Lewis Howes?

  You don't know.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Right? And so you should also be able to say like, I'm just, I got a lot going on, could you just validate me right now? Like Matt, my husband and I have these conversations all the time and we're constantly reorienting each other. And it's not like a... Contentious, like, why aren't you validating me type of feeling? It's more just like, oh, no, you're in the wrong lane. Like, this is what I

• 54:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, or even if you don't want to use the word validate, maybe just say, can you just listen to me?

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:41Lewis Howes?

  You just hear me for a moment.

• 54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just need to feel heard.

• 54:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, not respond. Yeah, it's a solution, but this is powerful, Caroline. A couple of final questions. This question is called the three truths. So imagine hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want to live in this life. And you get to accomplish everything you want to accomplish or experience everything you want to experience. But it gets to the last day in your life, many years away. And for whatever reason, on this last day, you have to take all of your work with you. This book, we don't get to have content, this interview, it's gone. Hypothetical. But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons with the world. Three things you have experienced to be true in your life that you would leave behind. Three messages.

• 55:29Lewis Howes?

  What would be those three truths for you?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Don't squander your suffering.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Validation is the path to love.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  You are enough as you are. Those probably be the three.

• 55:44Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful. I want to acknowledge you, Caroline, for the journey you've been on.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 55:49Lewis Howes?

  It's been a wild one. But I want to acknowledge you for taking the journey when you're, you know, in your teens and in college to say, how can I find a solution for me or yourself to get out of this pain and suffering? To create more sense of peace and order inside of me so I can help others around me. And for the last 15 plus years, you've been in service, researching and helping others find validation and peace within them. So I want to acknowledge you for the journey you've been on, for helping so many people, for saving lives, literally. For creating this book so that others can have the skills and the tools to validate themselves and others and create that sense of peace in a world that might be suffering for them.

• 56:33Lewis Howes?

  So I acknowledge you for this journey. Yeah, of course. My final question, Caroline, what's your definition of greatness?

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Greatness, in my opinion, is always striving for greatness. I think

• 56:49Speaker 01

  In a nonjudgmental way, just always striving to do better the next day

• 56:57Speaker 01

  for the world and for yourself. Like if that is your north star, if that's the God you worship, I think you'll be great.

• 57:06Lewis Howes?

  There you go. Carolyn, thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 57:09Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate it. Amazing. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life, and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyleasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

• 57:53Lewis Howes?

  And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.